Julian Dorey Podcast - #67 - Will Toms: 100,000 People & The Path To Freedom

Episode Date: September 29, 2021

Will Toms is an entrepreneur, TED Speaker, and a member of the Forbes 30 Under 30 Class of 2021. Currently, Toms is the Co-Founder and Chief Creative Officer of REC Philly. Additionally, he also serves on the board of three non-profit organizations fighting structural inequality and food insecurity in inner-city neighborhoods. ***TIMESTAMPS*** 0:00 - Intro; Tequila; background on REC; The Pandemic forcing people to spread out from big cities and move to remote culture; The 1 Million Fan Theory; Artists and NFTs 32:53 - A story about a great A&R Exec and the “anti-suits”; Chance the Rapper business model; Jay Z & Rocawear; The critical nature of Culture; The Solvay Conference; The Paypal Mafia & The Winklevoss Twins; Why Ben Simmons is the most disappointing athlete Julian’s ever seen 1:03:34 - The Jack Conte (Patreon Founder) theory on the creation model; The Donda - CLB In-fighting stupidity; Why 6ix9ine is lower than a joke; Will talks about his backstory growing up in Philadelphia 1:29:38 - Freedom; The hypocrisy of corporate culture in America; The Wealth Gap and the War on Poor people 1:43:53 - How Will managed the Pandemic blowing up at a particularly bad time; the 100-fan strategy; Community over audience; Charlie Rocket Jabaley’s “I Am You” Theory ~ YouTube EPISODES & CLIPS: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0A-v_DL-h76F75xik8h03Q  ~ Get $100 Off The Eight Sleep Pod Pro Mattress / Mattress Cover: https://eight-sleep.ioym.net/trendifier  Julian's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/julianddorey  ~ Beat provided by: https://freebeats.io  Music Produced by White Hot Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Meet Tim's new Oreo Mocha Ice Caps with Oreo in every sip. Perfect for listening to the A-side, or B-side, or Bull-side. Order yours on the Tim's app today at participating restaurants in Canada for a limited time. Here's why to me it's like really, really sad. His core audience, the people who consume his music, don't understand the lifestyle that he's portraying. And they really don't understand the genuine consequences of what happens when you tiptoe around that lifestyle. And then you fucking snitch on people. People go away for a really long time.

Families are involved. So it's like the fan can't really understand what is actually happening, but they can watch the YouTube videos and laugh. They can go to the concerts and then they go back home and they're completely devoid of that culture that they just got pure enjoyment from with none of the downside. family and execute them in front of you. I'm actually not going to do that, but I want you to hit that button with the desperation as if I would, because then you hit the button and you got nothing to worry about, right? It's not hard. It's not a very, very easy decision. So hit that

button right there, the like button. All right, good. We're good. Thank you. If you're listening on Apple or Spotify and not already subscribed on Apple, hit the subscribe button. And if you're not following on Spotify, hit the follow button. And if you're not following on Spotify, hit the follow button. And I hope to see you guys again for future episodes. Now, I am joined in the bunker today by none other than Mr. Will Toms, who is the founder of Wreck Philly, which has blown up in Philadelphia, but will also very soon be Wreck New York, Wreck Miami, Wreck LA, Wreck Chicago, Wreck Houston, Wreck the whole bit like he's killing it so i appreciate him coming in here and sharing a bit about that but also talking about a lot of

other things like we spent a little bit on rec philly we we got into a lot of other stuff this guy's a very well measured thinker i like that i could talk with someone like that all day. I think you guys will like that too. So hit the like button and enjoy the episode. That said, you know what it is. I'm Julian Dory, and this is Dreadfire. You're giving opinions and calling them facts. You feel me? Everyone understands this, but few seem to do it. If you don't like the status quo, start asking questions. Well, I've had people bring alcohol here a couple times. Yeah.

But I haven't had someone roll up with tequila. Oh, yeah? Like before the sun's down, too. Let's go, man. Yeah, you're trying to kill me. Let's go, man. alcohol here a couple times yeah but i haven't had someone roll up with tequila oh yeah before the sun's down too let's go man yeah you're trying to kill me let's go man and it's funny like um my drink of choice typically is uh a whiskey you know what i mean on the darker side yeah but in summertime man i'm getting older i like the i like the the lighter stuff i like the gin or the tequila so this this is daily on? Yeah, De Leon. I don't know if I've heard of them. De Leon, owned by a black man.

Yeah, so it's black-owned tequila. Started by Puff. Sean Love Combs. Diddy. Wait, this is one of Diddy's? Yeah, it's Diddy's newest. God, I should have known that. Yeah.

I had no idea. Yep, that's his newest. So, yeah. Gotta show have known that. Yeah. I had no idea. Yep, that's his newest. So, yeah, I got to show love to that. Because he's got Ciroc, and then Ciroc only makes vodka, though, right? Yeah, just vodka. So he's got multiple different lines of alcohol now. Yep, absolutely. But, yeah, the tequila, man, it's nice.

I've been in tequila world. I've been in Mezcal lately, too. Have you ever tried Mezcal? Someone, my buddy Nico. I've been in tequila world. I've been in mezcal lately too. Have you ever tried mezcal? Someone, my buddy Nico was on here, was talking about it. He said that's like, because he's a restaurateur. So he was saying that's really in right now. Like this year mezcal is like the taste of choice. I was like, I haven't had that yet.

I love it. It's like, imagine tequila, but like smoky, right? So like if you like whiskey, it's like what a scotch or bourbon is to whiskey. That's what like mezcal is to tequila. Do you like it with anything? Just not as good right there. Really? Yeah, straight.

You're good, you're good, you're good. Some savage shit, man. So wait, you like tequila straight? Yeah, I mean, you know, if I'm out, I'll probably do a drink, you know what I mean? We'll mix it up with some sort of fruit juice or something. But, yeah, man, it's good to sip on. That's interesting because I, you know, if it's got alcohol in it, I like it.

I'm telling you. Here, try it real quick. Try it without it. Yay, it's super smooth. All right, if I choke, it's on you. Cheers. Cheers, brother. It's strong yeah it's not it's it's actually though that's a lot smoother smoother than you think right yes yeah now i'm used to taking like shots of tequila which is like a punishment right

i'm gonna be honest yeah no doubt no doubt but that right there yeah but this isn't like cuervo or something you know no that that didn't burn the back of your throat at all right what's what's the other one where it's like you got to ring the bell or whatever you know i'm talking about what's that i don't know about that it's the tequila that it comes in like this god like the skull or something no but i know what you're talking about that's a different one there's another one that comes in almost like this white vase type thing oh yeah the top's blue and you gotta like ring the bell or whatever that's in almost like this white vase type thing. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then the top's blue and you got to like ring the bell or whatever. That's in this year for sure, for sure. I forget what that's called.

What is that called? I feel like everyone buys that and they also buy 1942 at the same time. Yes, yes. That's like traditional we at the club, you know, getting our stunt on. That's what we drink when we do that. Yeah, see, I'm used to like the shitty Cuervo. Yeah, I mean. The college bar stuff.

I don't even know the name of it, so you know I'm not at that part of my life where I'm buying vase-looking bottles at the club. You're not? I thought you were kind of balling, though. I mean, I'm not saying that, like, I don't go out and have fun and enjoy myself and do that, but that's not the way I like to spend my breads. At least not yet. I feel you. I feel you. But, listen, thank you for coming in and doing this.

We connected through miles i was pretty excited about this because i have always heard about rec philly and like for people listening right now obviously this is something that's focused in philly but what you're building is something that can will probably go beyond filling is also enormous here it's very interesting the whole concept and i know very little awesome but that's like the thing it's almost like it's this it's like this club like you got it you got to be in it and if you're not in it it's like oh yeah wreck Philly yeah like you don't know what it is so just to start off here can you give like the basic outline of what you guys are and then we'll get to like how you built and also sure you know I'm obviously going to want your thoughts on a whole bunch of things

like around the industries that you're working in which is what we're really going to talk about love it let's figure it out yeah but i love that perspective i do feel like uh we're kind of like the best kept secret in so many ways yeah you know what i mean um but what is wreck so uh wreck is first it's an acronym resources for every creator um here in philly you know and around the area we go by wreck philly and essentially what we are is two things one um you know creative incubator and also a creative agency so for us at the end of the day what it's all about is nothing more than just empowering creative people to do more of what we love to do right in philly you know we have i would say arguably more talented people in by capita there's a lot right than anywhere in the world. But the challenge is

folks don't always understand where do I go to get access to high level creative tools and resources? Where do I go if, you know, I want to be able to understand not only how to keep creating, but how to actually build a business around my talent. And then third, where do I go if I want to be around like-minded people, which for us is people who understand, you know, and care about the culture and creativity, but also that business side. So for us, we're an incubator. So we have a space at 9th and Market in Center City, Philly. 14 private studios from podcast studios to recording studios to dance and movement studios to design studios.

How many square feet do you have? We're sitting on 10,000 square feet. Holy shit. Yeah. Wow. So it's a beautiful space, man. But it's those tools we've got a live nation venue in the back which is super dope so people can perform and you know all of our

educational workshops are happening there wait that's sponsored by live nation yeah we're in partnership with live nation no shit that's really cool yeah it's super fire because you know we'll go back to the back story at some point but like i remember the days where i couldn't even beg to get my homies on a live Nation show. So now that I own a venue that now is, you know, powered by Live Nation, it's kind of, it's a beautiful kind of full circle thing. So are they a part owner too? Or are they just? No, absolutely not. So what's really cool about our partnership is they paid us to be a part of what we're doing and to have naming rights to the venue, but no equity in my business. they really have no um ability to do anything in

our space without our permission so it's just we really get to kind of borrow their name um and they also give us some capital to to build it out oh that's awesome it's really special that's like the best of both worlds right there yeah i love me some non-dilutive capital yeah hard to get hard to get these days um but yeah but it's the incubator which is everything i've kind of described the space and we spend a lot of time on educational programming teaching entrepreneurship through the lens of creativity and then on the other side of the business is a community-driven creative agency so right now we've got over 1100 active members right and these are creatives of all kinds you know from photographers to performers to podcasters to etc you name it

and what's really special is now that we have right 1100 members of our community from photographers to performers to podcasters to et cetera, you name it. And what's really special is now that we have 1,100 members of our community, we have the ability to go out to brands of all sizes, whether it's Live Nation, whether it's Red Bull, Lyft. And when they're hiring us to do creative services, all of our members essentially have the ability to open the app and go to the jobs and opportunity board and learning oh wait there's four photography gigs this weekend where i could be needed or you know they're looking for performers for this show that's coming up and they can just hit a button throw their hat in the ring and then be able to get paid to do what they love to do you

know what you guys kind of are in a way with that i never thought of this before i'm sure there has to be like some examples i've come across and i'm just not thinking but it's really cool you're like you're the contraside of like a recruiting agency there so you see recruiting agencies come out they got to go find people and place them right you go find the places and then say oh by the way i got the people yeah and it's and it's like a relationship driven thing because it's not like hey i got people to work for you it's like oh we're gonna do this thing for you and then happy customer or happy partner in your case they're coming in getting whatever work they are exchanging whatever and then they have opportunities and you're like oh oh we have some people too what do you think absolutely that's awesome yeah it's a beautiful thing man

it's i think of it as an ecosystem you know i think um in a city like philly it's like we're a talent town through and through but what we're not is an industry town you know the way people think about in new york or in la so for what do you mean by that in like 2021 yeah which and i'm glad you said it that way right um so back when we built the business in you know 2012 2013 2014 where we're coming up you know and just throwing shows for the homies and you know 2012 2013 2014 where we're coming up you know and just throwing shows for the homies and you know creating content the narrative unfortunately with most of the most talented people who we would book for shows was yeah i'm doing my thing in philly but if i want to get to the next level i gotta go to new york i gotta go to la and the the mindset and the reasoning behind

that was in those places it was perceived that there were the people that could help you advance, right? The people with the relationships, the people with access to the resources. So really it's just, those cities have, have kind of built their own ecosystems in a way where it's like, Hey,

if I tap in, I can, I can elevate. But the, the funny part is like, there are resources in Philly, you know, we're one of the biggest cities in the country still,

top six or seven. I think it's like six or seven, something like that. There's money in Philly, you know what I mean? A lot of people like to believe that there's not, but there is, you know what I mean? And we have a thriving community. It's just a lot of scarcity mindset just because of the way we all come up in the city.

It's not a lot of resources that are available. So we think, right? The perception is it's scarce. But for us, it was like, yo, there could be a different way to do this. And for me and my business partner, Dave, it was like, we could have easily went off to New York and LA as entrepreneurs,

as just these young scrappy hustler guys to make a name for ourselves there. But it's like, if we do that and everyone else keeps doing that, nothing changes. So at what point will someone stay and be like, yo, how do I actually start to build the infrastructure here? So that's kind of where we went. You know what, though?

The game also changed long after you started. A thousand percent. Because the pandemic, I mean, there's a million downstream effects of that, obviously. But if we're looking at some of the more basic ones that we've seen that are going to continue on into the future here it's that a people have the ability to work where they work where they want so the importance of being on the ground in new york or la actually sometimes even in shit as crazy as like movie studios yeah like in some cases not a lot

but you know what i mean like things like that are now going to be available for people to live in philly or live in north carolina wherever they are and so on top of that you also now have more of a blending of where people are going to congregate so not necessarily just like how all these people work in new york city but seven million people live in manhattan a lot of people who don't live in manhattan but they live in the areas right around it absolutely because it's like okay now some crazy people live like an hour and a half away which is nuts to me but a lot of people they'll live within like 45 minutes in some in some of the counties in jersey and new york if you can now look into a future where that's going to expand to say nothing of people don't even have to worry about it because they're not even going in

you can create bases not just like in the actual city of philly but in the region that is the philadelphia region yeah and this is very interesting to me because i've always like i'm from here i love philadelphia like it's my home city right i grew up in south jersey love this place but like i love new york that's where i lived that's where i want to get back to love that place and it's just because like that's my vibe and it's because i look at philly as more of a town whereas when you like when you compare it to new york look at Philly as more of a town, whereas when you like when you compare it to New York, New York's like more of a city. But the beauty of this whole pandemic now is that the talent that has been in Philly for a long time, as you alluded to, that's not new.

That's not new. And now we're giving people an opportunity to build here and build in this area and attract like a greater region over time it'll take 20 30 years but these are the types of things that can do it yeah and i agree with that but i would also challenge and say that like yes the pandemic kind of like expedited that but i think the game changed years before that that's fair you know what i mean i think the game that really made our business viable was the fact that in 2014 2015 you know i'm i'm a nerd figuring out like all right for context i you know i'm a nerd that loved entertainment culture media studied that stuff in school but also studied economics right so 20 combo right good combo so and it's funny

because back then everyone's like yo how does that make sense right but for me it made a ton of sense and what i do now is literally right at the intersection. But in 2014, 2015, I'm watching Uber build their business and become the fastest growing transportation company without owning cars. I'm watching Airbnb become one of the fastest growing hospitality companies and at that time own no property. So the idea of these platform-based businesses who could build massively fast-growing startups and not need to own all of the assets that were helping them become what they

were was really special to me. So I'm like, oh, well, when is this going to come to the entertainment space? Because if we think about the paradigm of the entertainment space, it's always unfortunately been a thing where the people who are creating culture, creating the IP, were not the ones always taking home the value that was created, right? So for me, it was like, oh, this is it. And I saw two things happening. I saw that become possible as a model. And then second, this is where direct-to-consumer started to blow up.

2014, 2015, this is before Chance the Rapper was waving the flag as an independent artist, where now it's normalized, right? It's normal to hear rap bars talking about independence, talking about owning your masters. But again, back then, that wasn't the norm. So I kind of saw where the puck was going back then. It was like, yo, we should bet the house on this because both of these things are going to keep going. And once people get a taste of what ownership is about and all that, we're not going to want to go back because this is the opportunity for us to undo, unfortunately, what made the norm of some of the songs that our parents grew up on and build the best moments of their lives around.

Some of those artists who created those records died broke. Yes. And it's not just one or two of them. You know what I mean? So it was like, yo, I see where broke. Yes. And it's not just one or two of them. You know what I mean? So it was like, yo, I see where this is going. And for me, it was about how can I contribute using the knowledge I had to create a different paradigm. So can we circle back on the non-agency part then, which I think is what you're getting at here, because I want to make sure I understand the full context. And this is also great, because I just had in my friend Mason the other day He was one of the co-owners of breed studios and colored Okay

So we were talking all about like the music industry and like the whole process Masters and publishing deals all that stuff. So damn very much in the vibe of this right now. This is good But when you're talking about helping people own Their stuff you had mentioned you have like you have the Live Nation studio in there or stage. You have the podcast studios. You have the recording studios. So you are specifically – it seems like the focus is not as much what the agency side is, which more focuses on people who are interested in marketing. It seems like the focus on this other side is, which more focuses on people who are interested in marketing. It seems like the focus

on this other side is all entertainment. So it's all people who are talent of some sort. Yeah. It's our, our audience, our content creators, anyone who's creating intellectual property specifically like content that then can go and build an audience around that. That's who our community is. And I think to just drive it home and make it super plain the easiest way to think about our incubator it's a gym membership for creative people right so what makes us different than any of these other you know think of it like a label or something we don't want to we don't own anything our members create how do you guys make money again so you pay a membership to be a part of what we're doing right so you said it's like a member thing like or something is that what makes them I'm

thinking like that's kind of covering operating costs so membership is definitely something that helps cover operating costs and does its own thing and then having the agency is is the icing on the cake you know what I mean and it's the marriage of those two models which really makes it beautiful that's awesome because and you answered a question I was going to have for you which is the biggest thing when you're creating when you're solving a problem like this and taking control of the issue like you are is you have to question like oh am i just becoming the replacement for what was you know like am i just becoming the new label yeah but the beauty of things like airbnb and the major examples you mentioned and uber well i don't know if uber is the best example like airbnb and the major examples you mentioned and uber well

i don't know if uber is the best example but airbnb is a great example at this point you know they empowered a lot of people to make passive income right you know and it's like they kind of get they basically get a rake and they're by the way greatest rake you'll ever pay because they're setting everything up you don't do a damn thing you just have a place right you know so it sounds like for you, it's like you have all the tools here. You're going to have at least mostly access to them unless like, you know, there's a line to get in the studio.

I'm sure there's schedules and stuff like that. But still, like you have access to it all the time. Yep. And you're going to be able to get things essentially at your disposal that you would have to pay a fuck ton of money for like somewhere else. And I understand this, obviously. So that's a pretty cool model. Thanks, man. I appreciate it. that you would have to pay a fuck ton of money for like somewhere else you know and i understand

this obviously so that's a pretty cool model thanks man i appreciate it i mean look at the core of it it's it's about resource sharing man you know what i mean it's about resource sharing it's about people who understand the abundance mindset like how many how many rappers do you think there are in philadelphia a number right and you, it was kind of a ton, right? You know, how many of them probably spent their savings of $4,000 to get a startup recording system? Most of them, right? For real, for real, though, if we all thought about pooling that money and creating a real resource set, and just made sure that everyone had access to it when they needed it, how much more efficient would all those dollars be able to circulate and actually be meaningful for the people that are using them? Because how many people that spend that $4,000

then don't figure out how to actually learn the business, and then two years later, they give up? Right? Efficiency, right? And in my community, in my my culture that efficiency kills us because we don't build wealth so resource sharing you basically you're figuring out a way to get people to not be discouraged from trying yeah at the end of the day sure and this is like a complicated one too i talked about this a little bit with mason but it's it's there's a whole spectrum to it and it's like he had a line where he said the reality is certain people aren't built for it right and that's true in anything but i do think and i know what he meant too so i'm not bastardizing his quote here because i think he would agree with what i'm about to say but i do think that there are plenty of people who, for whatever reason, could be family, could be purely money, could be situation in life, whatever it is, the timing of things that happen to them don't give them the opportunity to be able to go do that thing, whatever it is. Sure.

And so while there are certainly people who just kind of stop and are built for it plenty of them and you can you know they'll see their way out i guess there are also a lot of people who maybe never get the chance and i guess an argument that some people would come back and be with is like hey certain people don't take no for an answer there's not a ton of people in this world who are built like that right there's not like how many tom brady's are there how many michael jordans are there there aren't a ton but there's a lot of greatness yeah well sure kobe's another one and absolutely you know and you look at the greats across any sport you look at the greats across even like entertainment and stuff like a denzel washington

denzel washington told everyone to fuck off for like 15 years and said i'm gonna do what i'm gonna do yeah there aren't a ton of people wired like that. Let me add this into the box. I agree with what you're saying. However, the internet has created a shift that like, not everyone needs to be Beyonce. Yes. So automatically, if for example, if one in a million people could do it before now one in a hundred thousand can, because the success looks different. And you know the idea of like you know if i'm a high school kid and like especially if you come from a neighborhood where like i come from my family comes from where are you from so my family's from germantown that's on the west side of philly right i guess you could say i mean no one ever says this but like northwest like

but when you think about it it's just just like, when you come from, from that kind of environment, usually the way out is entertainment or sports, mostly sports. Yeah. Right. But like going to the league is like one. And I don't know how many millions of a shot. Right.

And then what happens is if you do make it though, boom, overnight, you get that moment and all of a sudden you're a multimillionaire and you're set up. Right. We don't need that anymore. I'm not saying that every person who joins Rec Philly is going to become Beyonce, who's going to become the next Kendrick Lamar. But what I am saying is if you really lean into what we're teaching, which is creative

entrepreneurship, I do believe that there's a big majority of our members who have the ability to learn how to make $60,000 a year doing what they love to do instead of putting on the mask to walk into a job they hate just because it pays their bills. So I agree with what you said. Not everyone's cut out to be the entrepreneur that can build a startup to fucking launch. I love how you put this. Keep going. You know what I mean? so many people who are incredibly talented who can create content and express themselves to share their own stories that even if they're one in a million by the numbers i think that means there's 8 000 people just like them on the planet right because there's like 8 billion people in the world

so if you understand how to use the internet to find your audience make high quality stuff you can figure out how to get your 8 000 people or your 10 000 if you're lucky to give you what 10 100, 100 bucks this year? I heard a quote from somebody and I can't remember who right now, but I'll look it up after and get it to you. It was a few years ago. I think it was like a LinkedIn video or something. RIP LinkedIn. Anyway.

RIP. But this guy was talking about, I think the basis of the question he was answering was about worrying about haters or something like that. And he goes, okay, how many people are in the world? And they're like seven and a half billion, whatever it is. And he goes, okay. We interrupt this conversation for two reasons. Number one, like the video. Number two, if you haven't used the link in my description along with the code TRENDIFYER at checkout to get $100 off either your 8Sleep Pod Pro mattress or 8Sleep Pod Pro cover,

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and you will get $100 off either the Eight Sleep Pod Pro Cover or if you want to go for the full mattress, it is phenomenal. It is phenomenal. You can get that as well and get a hundred dollars off that as well i said as well twice there but we're gonna go with it so back to the conversation check out eight sleep you won't regret it what is one million out of seven and a half billion it's a very low it's like whatever it is point zero zero zero something and he goes all right do you think if you had a million people who actually liked you or loved you in this world are you pretty convinced that every year if you provided value you could probably get five dollars from each of them and everyone in the building went yeah and he goes do you think you could probably live with the fact that maybe the other people in the world all hate you but

you have a million people that don't and that's probably enough to subsist and everyone in there was like oh yeah and it's so true because what you're talking about to bring it full circle back to what you were saying is you can use the internet to find your audience and then you can monetize that audience by providing them something that's personal to them with creativity boom that's what we teach that's awesome yeah we literally we wrote a whole curriculum 10 chapters of how to do exactly that how to really understand building a powerful brand right i think in like 2021 that's like the most bastardized word everyone says oh it is right but doesn't even understand that yeah but how do you actually build a meaningful brand how do you build an

audience of people who believe what you believe how do you use you know top quality digital strategy to engage them properly? And then how do you do the scary part for most creatives, which is actually build revenue streams and monetize. And we teach that, you know, and then to go a little further, how do you protect your intellectual property? So that way you're actually building equity for yourself. Yeah. And we teach that to folks because there's just so many people who literally the best MCs ever heard in my life, the best singers ever, you you know heard in my life like but they just don't understand the business and when you teach someone when you tell someone yo you gotta you gotta write a business plan this and that and they go on google

and they see a template that's 50 pages long they get intimidated it's like nah it's it's bullshit but here's the actual brass tacks of it all and then you do, I don't know if you ever heard of Kevin Kelly. I don't think so. He's got a concept called A Thousand True Fans. I definitely haven't heard of that. You should check it out. You'd love it. Makes so much sense for what you're doing here. But his concept is basically what we were talking about earlier.

It's you only need a thousand people. And if you can find a way for a hundred people, for a thousand of those people to give you $100 a year through merchandise, through meet and greet experiences, events, or the streams on YouTube revenue or whatever, you're making six figures. And look at how people are using that with the whole whole nft stuff coming out so yeah there's and now there's a lot of solid stuff finally rising to the top where actual artists people who are talented as hell are creating things and getting value for it which i love to see you've also seen though a lot of shitty art go and why does some of it not some of it is just going because it's a weird bubble. But why does some of it go? It goes because the creators behind them are selling all the other things around it,

like those in-person experiences and the things that actually attach the fans to them so it continues to build their community. I love that we're talking about NFTs. I think the thing that most people get wrong about NFTs is they think that the value is the NFT, but it's not. The NFT is just the vehicle. You know what I mean?

Same thing with- It's the key. And it's like, okay, but what is the meaning of that NFT? Again, are you attaching an in-person experience to it? Et cetera, et cetera. I think every time a new technology comes out, people sometimes lean on the technology as if it's the saving grace, but it's really just the tool to help you actually monetize. For example, are you familiar with Patreon?

Oh, yeah. Right? I've seen so many people be like, oh, I'm going to get on Patreon. I'm going to kill it. And they get on Patreon thinking that it's a discoverability platform. No. It's not, not in the slightest. But if you already have an engaged audience, it's a tool that allows you to then monetize them in a discoverability platform. No, it's not not in the slightest. But if you

already have an engaged audience, it's a tool that allows you to then monetize them in a very simple way. NFTs similar, obviously, there's so many differences. But at the heart of it, you're not going to get on there mint some some some NFTs. And then all of a sudden, you're going to blow up overnight. Yeah. But if you already have a rabid audience, and you're smart enough to have a strategy that nfts lends itself beautiful to beautifully to it could change your life and you know I think the best example and I don't always like talking about him because he's I know where you're going yeah say it uh I'll just say there's a hip-hop artist who used the platform beautifully where he decided

that he was going to make an album this is not where I thought you were going okay keep going there's a hip-hop artist who decided he was going to make an album. This is not where I thought you were going. Okay. Keep going. He's a hip hop artist who decided he was going to make an album. And he said, yo, I'm going to only drop, how many copies did he put out? It might've been a million. Yeah, it was a million. He said, I'm going to put this mixtape out, seven records. I'm only going to mint a million copies, right? And they're all going to be $1.

And then literally promoted it. When it dropped, I think in in like minutes everyone went on snatched them all up bought all of the nfts what was amazing about that is he made a million dollars right away oh yeah right but the other part is our culture loves the resale market so not only did his best fans his most rabid loyal fans get to go and be a part of that moment they got this asset now that when it goes from being worth a dollar to everyone wants it and now it's trading for 10 for 50 for a thousand i think the craziest one went for like 47 000 some fan got to participate in that moment not just emotionally

but financially that changes the landscape for what it looks like to support a local creator we've made equity out of like everything. Yeah. And what's important about that is people who have created culture have always struggled to make equity out of their own culture. So now is finally a point in time where we understand how we can value that. And again, it's direct to consumer so there's not some dude at the top of the building in of a label telling you what how much equity you should have in your art it's the market gets to decide and i think that's really powerful i think it's still and this we talked about this

a little as well mason there's some nice overlap here but i think there's still an element that's half and half where I think that you're on the right pathway here. And only at the start of it is that there is a demonstrated ability, if you're willing to play it out, to be able to build that audience and then actually create way bigger per capita monetization than has ever been done in the past or was possible in the past. Right. So the people who learn, what was that guy's name? The Kelly method you were saying? Kevin Kelly, yeah. Is that what it's called?

Yeah, Kevin Kelly's A Thousand True Fans theory. Okay, so again, I'm going to have to check that out. That sounds awesome. But like that kind of thing, if you are actually teaching that like you guys are and showing people examples, not just one or two, but a lot of examples of how it's possible, as that gets adopted over time that's where it'll start to become a built-in expectation because it's a weird line with

creatives and business there are some creatives who are great at business sure but like a lot of them aren't and i think you know i've been on both sides of those things i love the creative side more yeah i appreciate some good business though right as do i thank god i know how to do that you know thank god you know how to do that that's how you built something like this and want to do that and well that's the key you have to like have some sort of interest in it yep whereas like you think about you were using the examples of these artists in the past who you know died broke yeah these guys it's not that they didn't care in in most cases it's that they're so busy like in their minds building something from scratch that's never been done that anything that distracts from like that thought process that zone it's not their

problem they don't want to deal with it yeah and so then what happens yeah yeah just sign it yeah you know what fuck it do it and that's how problems happen yes and i think there's a reality of people who that was the exact way to describe it but also you can't forget that the industry has always i don't want to say it there's an undeniable predatory aspect of the industry that also i love you but i'm putting this in that's fine i just wanted you to take a sip you know to see what it's about trying not to die over here you got it i think they're they're also it's only fair to acknowledge that like the industry has been predatory in in so many ways right like yes we were just talking about an artist like baby keem right um what 19 years old yeah before the podcast just for people listening oh yeah before

you didn't miss that okay yeah before the podcast yeah he's like 19 or 20 right um most of these artists especially today that are emerging and even before decade this is you know decades old most of these cats are young kids and they're coming oh yeah and they're coming from from environments that they don't have business people around them right so if if I'm coming up in a really rough neighborhood, whether it's in South Central LA or in the Bronx, New York, or I'm in Philly, I don't have that sort of mentorship around me. I'm watching my mom work two jobs

and there's no dad there, you know what I'm saying? And then somebody gives me an opportunity to make art and they're saying they're gonna give me $100,000. The idea of the kid then saying no to that is very low. Oh, yeah, yeah. And these labels know that, right? So then I just want to put that out there too because it's not just like the kid who's an artist,

and he's like, oh, my God, don't bother me. I just want to create art. It's also like there's real life happening outside of that. So I just wanted to put that in there too, and that's been preyed on for decades, for centuries that's so important and there's a balance with it because i tend to just i mean we all do it but i'll generalize all the time and just talk about like the suits and how they're all scummy a lot of them are there are some who aren't yeah not all it's not all of them and there and there are some do a great job. I do know one suit who I've known for a decade who's never worn a suit in his life, I might add.

If he's worn a suit, I don't think I've ever seen one. Wow. And he's like, to me, I always, and maybe I thought of him wrong, but I always thought of him as the craziest outlier. Because he is, he's had a career of 40 years longer than that maybe and he is over and over again he has demonstrated that he lives by the creed of i'm here for the art and nothing else and i will say the number of guys who can say that very very rare is he is he in a big building he was he's one of the three best a and our executives in the history of music I would say that's incredible I don't know him so and that's a good thing in this situation but I think from

a heart space that's probably true but to me if you're in a big big building especially one that's a publicly traded company me if you're in a big big building especially one that's a publicly traded company it's hard to really say that oh yeah that's why you quit there you go okay cool that's why you left yeah because that's that's always going to be the thing right it's like at some point shareholder value you know has to come in instead of ah but i really like this kid you know what happens? The Lior Coens of the world walk into the building. And they don't really care.

That's what happens. And that's why I'm so about the whole independent movement with all this stuff. And I appreciate, like you mentioned Chance. We should talk about that. Can you give a little background on his setup for people that don't know that story? Because if I'm not mistaken, he's been that way since day one i don't think he ever did anything yeah let me on the label side yeah and let me right before i break that down like i do want to be very clear like what my position is like around labels and stuff um you know i've got friends that work at

labels and like i used to be on a on in a space of like fuck the labels and this and that but I don't feel that way like I do truly believe that like there is and for a long time there will be a purpose and a role for labels to play in the ecosystem right and um that's healthy for me it's just about let's make sure that we're educating these these young people so that way when they get to the point if they ever get to a point that they want to work with a label they have the knowledge base to actually understand what's happening and how they can use the label for what it's good for which is a bank and connection to to radio if you still think that your art should be on radio hey if you own your masters and you have a good cut of your publishing and you have your ip a label is not a bad thing not at all as long

as you're not a rocket oh my god it is I mean I'm sure you know the numbers of the money they put behind these albums when they drop absolutely my god absolutely it's it's more money than most people have ever seen yes by a long shot by a lot so there is a space for us I just didn't want to come across as like oh he says fuck says fuck the labels all the way. But it's just about let's make sure young people actually have an informed negotiation. Right. And actually have that leverage. But anyway, so the Chance the Rapper thing, you know, I admire the way he built, you know, him and Pat.

Pat the manager, who I would say is just as important to that sauce as Chance is in so many ways. And he was never in a label whatsoever, right? He never was signed to a label. He did do that Apple Music thing. There was a partnership at play with Apple Music, which still not signed to a label. That's a partnership. Right. But yeah, he went from the mud to a certain extent, all independent, you know, was able to put out 10 Day Tape, which just did well online.

Dat Piff and all the blog era still was really helpful in that. Followed that up with Acid Rap, which was like critically acclaimed mixtape and really started to build an audience. And that allowed him to start touring. And then after that, he built a lot of leverage for himself and was like, yo,'t i don't need the label right i'm just gonna work this internet machine and um you know after that he just went crazy and um what's really special about chance is like he also understood that like yeah the music is dope but what people don't know is he made six million dollars off the three hat honestly my response to that is that's it like and that's the point i mean it was brilliant it was super brilliant no one like i remember when i first saw that i had no idea like that

was his i wasn't a fan of his at the time right i'm like damn everyone's wearing a damn helen iverson do something on this and it was and it was him and he was like this model for the merch side of of your fan base and obviously people had done that before him but he did it and kanye obviously is an extreme example literally built a brand right like these guys they figured out that they're they're one in the same like now you have this platform and internet 2.0 when it was coming up where okay you're gonna lose money on album sales and things like that because music is far more distributable and able to get in people's hands. But the thing you gain is people follow you online. So when you want to get a message out, boop, you hit the button.

Yep. And it's just the understanding, and sometimes it's hard for musicians to swallow this pill. Your music is not the product. Your music is the marketing of a lifestyle that then if you're smart, you'll create products to allow people to identify with. Wait, can you say that one more time?

Yeah, I think when you're really emotional about the business, you think the music is the product. An artist is going to spend years and years creating an album because they think that that's the product they're going to sell. But for real, for real, in today's day and age, the music is the marketing of a lifestyle that allows you to then sell products for people to identify with. For example, and I'll give you an old example. I think the people who like really started to make this normalized in our culture, the best, Jay-Z. Oh, yeah. realize yeah i could sell this music but also the lifestyle that i'm that i'm portraying is really what's penetrating these neighborhoods is really what's penetrating you know culture so then he

created rock aware you know it's like everyone talks about yeezy right now but it's like yo before yeezy there was rock aware who did kanye learn from of course from the best right s.carters he dropped sneakers right because he realized kids wanted to wear what was on his feet you know who made this boom you know and back then jay-z had uh cristal you know what i mean like so they started to realize that they had these lifestyles that people wanted to identify with so if i could sell the product boom and now i could just create the art to market the lifestyle. All right. Well, here's a question then.

Because you're teaching this kind of thing to sometimes like kids coming in there, you know, whatever they are, 14, 15. No, no, no, 18. Okay. So there is a minimum 18. But either way, you're teaching sometimes 18, 19, 20, 21-year-olds who are looking at the world wide-eyed. Yeah. Not shocked by it totally yet. Yeah. year olds who are looking at the worldwide i'd yeah not shocked by it totally yet yeah and i think a danger that i would go into that thinking about would be you know do you start to then get

them focused on the prize rather than the means that are going to give you the credibility the marketing for the prize um define the prize real quick the prize is that you have financial freedom whatever your goals are and and you have this fan base that loves you and you get to sell merch and all this shit and i'm saying that that the the means to get there the marketing to use your terms and i'm starting to come around on that as you explain that it's very interesting how you put that but the marketing of it is whatever the creative is so let's say it's it's a rapper and it's their music. There's people who can come up and start to think like, well, fuck it, I'll just focus on this stuff

and my music's good anyway. I'll just keep making shit and people will get with it. Sometimes, once in a while, that might happen. It might. But a lot of times, if your music sucks, they're not going to get with it. Sure. At the end of the day the the the

music and the art should be good you should strive for it to be great um for me though i love the words you used the prize is freedom yes and and for me the perspective is understand the business of this stuff enough that you can put yourself in a place that you do have financial freedom so you can actually create the art you want to create because it's just like yo you could be the most phenomenal singer writing the most phenomenal songs but if you can't get in the studio because you're wondering where your next meal is coming from you're gonna start taking some sacrifices or you might fucking quit so you can go get that job because you're gonna have society's pressure to be

like yo bro you're 28 what are you doing you want to build a family someday right exactly so it's like yeah i want people just to understand like yo build the business infrastructure so you have the the freedom to really dig in and be the best artist you can be now how many of your people come in there and they are working other jobs too a lot of a lot yeah a lot yeah and like for me honestly like my best moments are the moments where there's a member who's been a member for let's say a year and a half two years and they come in and they're just like yo i did it i quit that's exactly it and it's yo I finally was able to build the confidence plus the the consistent revenue and all these other things to say, yo, I don't need that bullshit job anymore. And that's what success looks like for us. Right? I think sometimes because like the model so new, people are like, yo, well, how many members got signed? How many members got Grammys, which some members do have Grammy nominations and things like that, which is dope. But it's like, like that's not the goal the goal is how many people are doing what they love for a living

not a lot you know what i mean but but that's we've had dozens of members be able to do that you know what i mean over the last couple of years so it's like that's what impact looks like for us and that's getting to a place where it's a beautiful thing. Because, again, sometimes people just need that strategy. Yes. Because they already have the talent. A lot of them. And I never say, when people come to rec, come to rec, it wasn't designed to make you a better singer.

I'm going to assume that you're going to put in the work to become a better singer and find the training and all that stuff. But what I hope that people get when they come to rec is you're going to come in as an artist but you're going to leave as a creative entrepreneur and if that happens our job is done what i know will also happen is you're going to build relationships with other people who are serious about what they do that have chosen to invest in themselves right which weeds out a lot of boys because yeah because there's a lot of boys in entertainment uh people who say they want something but don't ever work for it

that's not our community these are the people who have been like yo i believe in this thing i'm gonna invest in myself um and then on top of that i do believe you're gonna become a better artist because you're gonna be able to be rubbing elbows with other people who are actually passionate about what they make i think you know creativity is driven by collisions like being able to interface with folks and collaborate and that's that's kind of what it's about the community aspect is is such an interesting thing today because we have these two narratives going on where it's like the internet is and you know post-covid with everything remote it's separating all of us but at the same time it creates an ability to come together more than ever now what's interesting about your setup is

that you're combining both you know i'm sure you have your different internet forums and communities as anyone does but you're also combining that with the fact that you're creating a physical space as well so people have and it's creatives you just said it the best that what was that creative creativity is driven by collisions yes yeah so you put people maybe who are different types of creators also in rooms together and they're exchanging ideas it's like this great thing yep but i do kind of worry about how many people across industries, like period in anything are going to be putting an emphasis on that moving forward, because it's easier, it's easier to just have people out on an island, you know, and they can, they can talk on zoom and work remote. And we don't have to build, you know, even within office spaces and workplaces communities. I mean,

look, obviously, obviously there's benefits because a lot of people who are working nine to fives never realized that they really only needed to work four hours and they probably wasted another four there. Yeah. So sure, there's a given to take. But when you separate people out, the ability to create a community beyond some just behind a keyboard community online goes away. Yeah. It goes both ways. do i think what you said about there's gonna be a lot of businesses that realize that like having a bunch of people in a cubicle in

your office is not actually gonna get the most productivity yeah cubicles suck let's be honest right they're horrible because it's like people are together but like they're not they're not you know what i mean um so there's that thing. So yeah, work from home. Here for it. But I think there's certain industries and certain sports and certain lifestyles that you need the in-person proximity. Because as much as the internet is really good for connecting people, I do believe that to build deep culture, you need that proximity let me put it like this yeah um are you a basketball fan huge cool so you're gonna you're gonna understand this um the Celtics the Bulls the Warriors the Spurs what all all those teams have in common great history of winning at least recent

and the Lakers not even recent for the most part well the Warriors is why I say that the stat is those five teams I just mentioned have won I think somewhere around 80% of all the championships that have been played

and it's not accident you can say oh they got the most money so of course they're gonna win maybe that's a part of it right their caps may be bigger but i believe that in those locker rooms they've created winning culture yes oh my god yes winning cultures takes a decent player and makes them a winner. And then those winning players help breed more winning players. And that winning culture just like goes on. So I think for me, that's why I think our space has been so important. Because like success, no matter what industry you're in, before it's about skills, it's a mindset. So I think our space helps really, really deeply build mindset. And then mindset plus access to resources here, plus like-minded people, right?

Plus, oh, I can prove what I can do and actually make money. Give us a couple years, man. We're going to create some of the best talent that the city's ever seen. That was a huge oversight on my part, not mentioning the word culture. I'm glad you brought that up because the two need to go hand in hand. You can't just build a community where a bunch of people go. It has to be a place where that thing's happening. And you don't want to turn it into like a cult or whatever.

You don't want to turn it into something where people are blindly doing whatever. But your point, that example with the NBA franchises is so spot on. And there are some cynics who would say that some of them, they're bigger markets and they have more money and more ability. That's some of it. But the other thing is they have managed to, when things start to be not so great within their organizations, they fix it. They clean house they know when you know ben simmons goes to one of those teams and he more likely turns into magic johnson rather than evan turner that's how this shit works you know what i mean well said our i mean our ownership team lives in fucking new york takes a helicopter here lands on their kids soccer field sometimes yeah it still tells you all you

need to know still you know still sore yeah yeah i don't want to i i already went in on ben simmons i don't need to go back they do but yeah we don't need to go there again but but you get it though yes there's a winning culture it's relatable to everything it's not you know the sports teams are just what we pay attention to but yeah i mean shit man look at you look at look at, what's his name? The kookbag who molested and raped all the women. Fucking Epstein or something? No, well, him too, but- Weinstein. Weinstein, that's it.

Like, look at the culture. Now, they created unbelievable hits there because they had a fuck ton of money and he was a torturous dog. But look at the culture that he created over time. And you know what? The truth will eventually come out and you're done when over time and you know what the truth will eventually come out and you're done when it does and you should be it's crazy yeah but you know it even

goes into like the academic world um there's this really legendary picture that i saw on the internet one time the name of the the convention is escaping me but there's this amazing picture it's a photo it's in black and white um and uh who was in it i'll try to pull it up it was like uh einstein um and like a bunch of other great people but it's like just like einstein convention i think it's like 1942 or some like that okay photos uh this one the solvay conference oh beautiful that right there yep boom what's amazing about this photo is there's some crazy stat when you look at all those people i think there's maybe like 20 people in this photo is that freud up there yeah no and what's nuts is the stat says that something like 80 of people in this photo

went on to win a nobel prize most of them won that after this photo was taken why culture they brought all the people who were some of the greatest minds and they brought them together and the way they were operating the way they were working the way they were thinking about what they were working on breeded this level of success that then allowed them to go on and create critical success it's the same thing with like the paypal mafia boom you ever heard about that percent Come on, man Elon teal left chin all these guys and now they're talking about it with The next one could be the Airbnb mafia cool because like a bunch of those guys

Right and all this exactly but now all the guys who worked with him or even like below him are starting to go out you've seen guys you've seen guys from Facebook go out and and Start new companies or fix other places and you like the twins i heard i i do respect the twins i like their they were the kind of guys that i'll fully admit i was like oh fuck them i saw the movie and then i read this book bitcoin billionaires you ever read that i haven't you'll love it it's worth reading oh my god you know you know the movie The Social Network? Absolutely. 21.

Yep. All these, that guy Ben Mesrick, who's like a goat, like unbelievable writer. He wrote the books that became those movies. Okay. So when he wrote The Social Network, he was like a little, you know, he was thinking, all right, these Winklevite twins, whatever. And then he kind of liked them. And like, he he's like i think the narrative is a little off and so then when they left when they left the lawsuit behind got the settlement they asked for their settlement in stock which is brilliant oh my god dude and that's and that's honestly that's a winning mindset oh yeah right most people would have been like fuck these dudes

just give me the cash no if you know the idea is valid you should want to be invested in it still even if it's not you that's at the helm they separated emotion and and logic yeah and so they went for the logic and then what did they do they found their way into bitcoin when you and i had no idea what bitcoin was and they invested and they didn't just invest in bitcoin they started investing in the infrastructure behind crypto and in blockchain and so i appreciate the fact that these guys became a meme around the world and never once complained about it they just built so that that does tell me a lot so i i am a fan of that i just don't that's interesting i still don't know enough about them to be like an elon fanboy or something. You know what I mean?

But I do like them. I love that. It's interesting. When you said that about kind of becoming a meme around the world, most people don't have the heart to just like withstand that. Kobe has a beautiful quote around that. He says, somebody asked him a question. I was like, yo, how do you deal with like the pressure being in the stadium

and fans hate you? He's like, oh, how do you deal with like the pressure being in the stadium and way and fans hate you? He's like, oh, it's easy. Booze don't stop dunks. That's awesome. You know, so it's like at the end of the day,

like, yeah, people could talk and people from outside the stand or in the stands are always going to talk, but you have to stay focused on what your vision is.

The people that can drown it out, another rare quality. It's hard to do. A thousand percent. It's hard, man man but we're humans we want people to like us we do but you know what you also have to remember a lot of the people who don't like you don't care that much either that's they've got a lot of other to worry about yeah like they'll sometimes like i'll be ridiculous in my comment responses like i'm funny like someone will rip me to shreds and i'll just come back be like yeah man what are your thoughts you troll the trolls yeah kind of and 90 of time they're definitely like confused like what a nerd like okay and they move on but then 10 of

them come back and not always but sometimes they'll like dm me and be like yo bro i was just side swiping a video like do your thing. This is great or whatever. I don't respect that, though. I don't respect that. Like telling the truth afterwards, at least? Yeah. Hold on. You said they would comment the fuck shit,

and then they'd message you and be like, yeah, man, I was just. Well, they would come back in the comments first, in fairness to them. Okay, I respect that. Yes. Afterwards, they'll usually come back publicly, and then afterwards be like yeah i'm not gonna lie like i'm a troll yeah as long as as long as it's public on both sides but what i hate are the people who like throw shade in public but then on the side they'll be like hey bro you know i was just oh that's i hate that that's yeah you know the apology has to be just as loud

as the disrespect yeah and and like that's the thing like one of my friends mitch was in here one of the first podcasts we did he had a great line he was like if there's people who are ready to hate it there are people who are who are ready to love it too and it's so true but like you know it's hard for people who put their work out there like an athlete who's playing on the floor who's worked their whole life and they got some dude 300 pounds eating popcorn with two beers up in the stand saying, fuck you. Right. That's not fun.

Like Ben Simmons has right now. Ben Simmons has that too, but Ben Simmons also is one of the three to five most talented people I've ever seen pick up a basketball, period. Period. And he won't learn a jump shot because he's arrogant. Hold on. That's what I think. Wait, you believe that? One of the three to five most tell me

Let me ever pick up a basketball Let me ask you a question Have you ever seen someone at six foot ten and a half with his length his speed his ability to be that low to the Floor his ability to pass I'm not saying Magic Johnson, but it's like Magic Johnson He's a step right below that which there aren't many people like that his ability to see the floor his basketball IQ He's defensive IQ, which is absurd, his body, which is strong. He used to be great at finishing

before he started thinking too much at shooting. Think about all that. Imagine if he could shoot a jumper. Yeah, I mean, he'd be lethal. Who's going to stop him? And that's really why people get so upset. It's not because they want him to just be a completely better player.

It's because they know the player he is and he's not living up to his potential. When guys aren't working. Yeah. That's different. Yeah. When you are, when you're just struggling, like you see some of these shooters, they go through slumps.

Shooters keep shooting. Like if you're going to start booing James Harden because he goes one for 19, a couple of games in a row, you're a moron. Right. And like he, and like if his first reaction is like, are you fucking kidding me? I totally get that. The greats find a way to like have that reaction be like whatever or just ignore the reaction like kobe right you know interesting okay that's definitely a hot take top three to five players ever touched the basketball but i i like your defense listen i i just i've never seen

that before like i look at yannis and yannis gets shit for not having basketball skills i don't think that's fair i think he does but you look at ben's basketball skills at almost the same size i think yannis is a little stronger than ben okay not by a lot though like ben's pretty strong you look at yannis's basketball skills and then you look at ben's it's not comparable yeah and then there's just mindset though, man. Yes. Uh, I think a lot of us wish Ben was just a killer. Yes. And he's just not, he's not.

So, and, and like, I, and I'm not going to hate on that kind of thing. It's just, my line is like, I'm always taking the side of the athletes on things.

When people cross the line of not giving a shit, when they, when they've also been given so much. I mean, the fan base in Philly has been so good to that guy. I mean, I'll speak for myself especially. I've defended him like a lot of other people for years. And I'm like, I'll keep waiting on it. He'll develop it.

And he's got all this potential. He got paid all this money. What did it for me is that even after he failed miserably in the playoffs this year i remember watching the last like three minutes of that game when he was on the bench after he passed up that shot and i actually instead of wanting to you know stick him in the grave i saw some reaction in him and i for a second like for that moment i was like i felt a little bad and i'm like maybe this is what he needed maybe he needed to go to the lowest level and then he did the press conference after the game and he was human i forget what he said or how that went i'm gonna get some of the lines wrong

but he he took responsibility and and he wasn't you know he's like a dead face guy he wasn't dead completely dead faced he was more not to say he needs to be like a histrionic emotional guy but you saw that he cared yes and so i'm like you know what i'm gonna give him a shot then when you go out and you start posting instagram videos for the fourth summer in a row of you jumpers baby the same exact form and then won't answer the phone calls of your own team and teammates who have done nothing wrong and then you demand to trade out of Philly and say that you're not going to show up, fuck you, dude. Sure. At that point, I'm out.

I get it. Yeah, and just for the sake that, I don't know what happens in the locker room. Again, I'm in the stands. I'll let it rock just because I don't know enough about that. That is true. Yeah. You do never know on some things.

You know? And I'll still have hot takes on stuff. Basically anything we could have a hot take on in here, we don't officially know. Right. Right. But there's still things that we can kind of, where it's like, hey, 98, 99% of the time, we're going to be on the right path here. Sure.

You know what I mean? Because if you start drawing that line, you're never going to criticize anything. Yeah. It's like, no one's anywhere. That's fair. That's fair,'s fair man yeah i liked one of the things you said a moment ago you said um if people hate it that much there's also people that are willing to love it i think that's really important for like creators to hear because i think we're in this time where like some people

are so afraid of the negative criticism that they're not willing to put their whole truth out and then it's like if you don't put their whole truth out and then it's like if you don't put your whole truth out you can't allow people to love you you know agreed so i think i think it's just important to kind of double down on that i think that's dope and that's something that's again it's hard to build that muscle to like care about something enough but then also not care about the reaction enough to actually like produce consistently that's something i've struggled with so i know like how creators feel in that moment but ultimately like the superpower is being able to stand in your truth and not give a fuck i think a big part of it though there's like a

little hack to it i'd love your thoughts on this to see if you have examples or like people you've seen that you might be able to say this about, but the hack to me is you have to just keep creating. Yeah. You just can't stop. Like, like I'm talking like on a day-to-day basis, like, all right, you put out a piece of content, it's gone. Yeah. It's over. Yeah. Don't look back, like go answer the comments to make sure you have your algorithm. Okay. Yeah. But that'll stop eventually. Right. Other than that, what's the next thing you're making yeah i like that i like that um you know jack conti no jack conti he's the founder of patreon don't know him okay yeah he's dope he was a musician and you know it's a content creator that's why i built patreon uh but he has this

whole idea of like working to publish which which is essentially the mindset of create with the intention that regardless, this is going out. And I think that's really, really helpful, especially for creatives. For example, if you're a musician, it's easy to get so romantic about the music that you're tweaking the one snare for fucking two weeks, not realizing that 99 of

people who ever listen to the record are not gonna know that you change that snare and then you just don't put out your album that's the problem right that's the problem so uh his whole idea of like working to publish is like nah that just put it out and and really what's underneath that concept is the concept that i love love love is He says, at the end of the day, you don't get to choose what you're famous for. It's not up to you. All you can do is just keep putting out your art and allow the fans to tell you what the hit is.

Oh, that's key. You know? Who was the one guy? I think it was L.A. Reid. If I'm wrong about this, just tell me I'm wrong in the comments. You're a human. Yeah, I think it was la reed if i'm wrong about this just tell me i'm wrong in the comments but yeah i think it was la reed because he was a legendary a and r guy who i heard him say a couple years ago he was talking about like talent and because they're like well how do you have such

an ear for he's like i mean to an extent i guess i do and i guess other greats have but he's like the fans know the fans do do know. They know. Like, when they hear it, that's why certain songs happen, because they know. Yeah, and I think there, I do personally, I believe there is, like, an art and a science to, like, especially, like, popular music or popular art. I think there is a formula, right, to what makes, like, a great record,

and there's, you know, some record makers actually, like, have a formula that I've, like, seen, like, spelled out of, like, it's got to do this and it's got to do that at this time. How do you feel about that? The formulaic method? Yeah. I love Drake. That's a great answer. I didn't have to ask it.

That's great. I love him too. He pulls it off. I love Drake. But yeah, I think there's the kind of art that is driven by understanding culture, where it's at and what people want to hear and then creating that, right? And I think that takes a skill too, right? Like, sure. As an entrepreneur, that's what you better be doing, right? You better be solving a problem, you know? So I think

that's dope. But I also appreciate the kind of art that's willing to be super vulnerable and push the culture as opposed to just feed it what it thinks it wants. And that's who a Kanye is. That's who a Steve Jobs is, you know, like Steve wasn't like, Oh, everyone,

we did the surveys and everyone says that they fucking want the QWERTY keyboard. It was the exact opposite. And I think, yeah, right. Exactly. Yeah. I got the stylist that I need.

And that's what I think like, and right now, just because it's so this week, I hate when people ask if you like Donda or Certified Loverboard. Oh, thank you. I hate it. Because it's just like, yo, this is apples to oranges. Like, we're not even talking about the same thing. Like, that's like being like, yo, like, I don't know. You like Ken Griffey or do you like

Kobe Jordan Jordan LeBron same thing man people there people create they want to create tribes around stuff and it has to be zero or a hundred right he sucks or or he's great right right what are we I I said this the other night to somebody yeah Yeah. You'll love this. I've never done this before, but I've got to read this to you. I was like, seeing a lot of hate drop from Team Kanye and Team Drake, we'll say the same thing I say, Reed, Jordan, and LeBron. Less fighting, more appreciating. Ye and Drizzy just dropped phenomenal albums. Clearly different, but clearly great.

Stop hating and enjoy. Facts. I wish everyone would do that, man. Yeah. Especially with art, you were making a point earlier, hating and enjoy facts i wish everyone would do that man yeah like it's just like you especially with art you were making a point earlier and then we got to something else so i i didn't want to i didn't want to stop you from that but i loved what you were saying when you were talking about how you can the way you were explaining it when you were going through like building the audience and

like being able to get value from a certain audience yeah you were highlighting also without trying to do it the difference between sports and creative creative is competing on time sports is competing on a result it's a score right like that yeah you know like you're gonna play a game it's gonna be roughly two and a half hours yeah whatever it is and there's a winner and there's a loser that's it yeah with creativity it's like how many minutes of today is someone gonna give me of their attention for whatever this thing is it's a bigger spectrum yeah well oh that's interesting the I get a little icky when we create the success of art to be about attention and time just because like there's a lot of people that are good at getting attention that are terrible at creating art yes that's fair so i just want to

like put that out there but i love that concept as you as you were explaining it though i love the essence of that so when can you expand upon that though i i think i know exactly what you mean when you're talking about like people if i'm putting words in your mouth, correct me, but people who are doing clickbaity shit. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. There's an artist who has rainbow hair that I hate. I'm not going to say hate.

I don't hate. But I think it's so destructive to the culture. I'm not going to go as far as to say it's not art, but it's like his talent is not making music. His talent is something else that also happens to be really good at getting attention. So I think that's kind of where it's like, I wouldn't call him a really great artist, even though he's a really good attention getter.

I've never knowingly listened to one of his songs. I'm sure I've heard one. I've never knowingly listened to one. I did once, and that was the first big one, Gummo but then after that I was like okay I get what this is never again never again um it's not even just attention there though it's it's just pure controversy like at the highest possible degree in every way including like the physical action someone like that takes on their body it's disgusting it's yeah and it's when people talk about these terms like culture vulturing and things like that i mean that's what

it looks like right there that's what it looks like you know and it's sad because like here's why to me it's like really really sad um his core audience the people who consume his music don't understand the lifestyle that he's portraying and they really don't understand the genuine consequences of what happens when you tiptoe around that lifestyle and then you you snitch on people people go away for a really long time families are involved so it's like the fan can't really understand what is actually happening but they could watch the youtube videos and laugh they can go to the concerts and like then they go back home and like they're completely devoid of that culture that they just got like pure enjoyment from with none of the downside i'm not gonna say

that it's bad to like, I don't diss rappers who actually come from that. And then they like make art around it. Cause it's like, you took the bad and then turned it into a good, right? You were able to somehow like build something from it. But if you don't accept the bad and then you only want the upside, I can't support that.

And that's who he is from what I've seen. Again, I don't know, but yeah. And I have the utmost respect, obviously, for the guys who then are able to use their platform through rap or whatever it is to completely get away from it. And guess what? That's how you get albums like Reasonable Doubt or The Illmatic

where these guys, Jay-Z,z naz and then all the way up through today good kid mad city even where it's like there's a way to talk about the lifestyle without glorifying the negativity of it yes and and there's still a way to be romantic about it in a way and i'm gonna be very careful i say that because a lot of these guys what i'll appreciate is that they don't forget yeah and that's important they don't forget their roots they don't forget where they came from they don't forget that a lot of their friends obviously are left behind absolutely you know and so when they put that which is hard oh my god i can't i can't i actually can't imagine like it's hard you know what i mean so like when they put that out there on something timeless that you know the regular white dude in

suburbia like me sure growing up in in a decent house like grows up listening to and then starts to actually starts to think about it not like the kids you were talking about like oh let's go laugh at a youtube video because it's funny and this guy with funny hair is going to talk to me it's like no damn like i wonder and then you start googling things oh wow yeah oh oh that exists because then the art becomes a portal to a world that then you can educate yourself on and appreciate yes exactly right and you're an intellectual tons of respect for you so it's like yo thank you absolutely i get it you know you want to learn more versus like i'm at i'm at made in america and like i'm just drinking my budweiser pounders i don't really know what i'm saying but i'm just gonna say it

because it feels good in the moment and then i go home and yeah whole different thing yeah you know a lot of those though still yeah still a lot of that which i'm again not mad at it but for me i think there is this big debate around the responsibility of the artist. And personally, I don't think there's a responsibility to be a role model. But I do think there's a responsibility. When you're elected by the people to be in a position, I think you should at least respect the people who put you there. And if you're not leading them in a way that's actually helpful to them, I can't respect that. Does that make sense? Yeah, this is really interesting.

So do you think it's possible, though, that some guys and girls over the years don't actively have any understanding that they may be leaning the wrong way on that? Whereas our friend with the hair I feel like knows exactly what he's doing. There are people who are just totally vulture. Yeah, he knows what he's doing Yeah, right But do you think like because you led that with it's not your job to be a role model Which is a great thing to say because not everyone's built for that but then I think some of those people who go the wrong way and maybe are to use your words like disrespectful of their audience by what they lead them to try to do i think some of them not all of them don't do that on purpose or

try to do that i think they're just put in a position where they happen to be great at like this thing yep and they're just doing it their way and maybe making a lot of mistakes because they're fucked up in the head or whatever it is i don't know that then that yeah downstream effect happens it comes down to this for me is it your truth or is it not if it's your truth and that's how you're living whatever make art about it because that's your lifestyle and that's a lot of people's lifestyle so you want to make the soundtrack to that lifestyle i'm not gonna i'm not gonna blame you for it right i'm not gonna condone it but for example if i'm future and i'm not saying this is what he does or not because i don't know him but if i'm future and i'm rapping a lot about lean culture and i'm glorifying that

but then i find out you're a vegan who's been straight edge for the last decade i don't i don't know if i can respect that i didn't even know that oh i don't know that i don't know that i'm just saying hypothetically okay okay okay hypothetically right i was gonna say wait i don't know if you google that one yeah i don't know what future does but i'm just saying like just let the line up if you're rapping about your life rap about your life because a lot of people are living that life and that life deserves a voice but if that's not your life it's, that's not your place to come and try to think that you're going to do that. And I think that's disrespectful because a lot of young people, they don't know if that's real or not.

No. So it's like, oh, well, that guy's doing it and he's got this and that that I want. So maybe that lifestyle is my way there. And again, you don't need to be a role model, but you just got to be responsible enough to be like, yo, I'm speaking my truth or not. Who were some of the people in pop culture like when you were growing up that you looked up to and you're like, they don't have to be perfect.

No one's perfect. But like, you're like, oh, that. Like you mentioned Jay-Z, you mentioned Kanye. So we talked about a couple of them. And I think those are great examples for a lot of reasons. But like, who were some of the people that you were like, that's how it, that's how you should do it. Yeah. Unfortunately, especially if I think about the ones that look like me, there weren't enough of them.

And that's why I lean so heavily into, into being willing to embrace it. Right. And like most people I know that are great role models don't even want to wear that title because like of what comes with that but for me i'm like fuck it like i i hope there's a young kid from in germantown who looks at me and is like i i could be like that right and i wear that with pride because it's just like yo like i know what the alternatives are so if i'm keeping it real with you like for me bro a lot of my role models were like the anti role models like not in a sense of a negative way but like you know I come from a family that like

I've seen my my dad's story right my dad's doing a 30 to 60 right now like my uncles I don't know I have uncles that died in prison I have uncles that that got murdered at 16 so it's like I was really clear on what I didn't want my life to look like so when i started to understand like okay cool like here's a path away from that all right cool let me just lock in over there but how early on in your life was your dad out of your life uh my dad got booked when i was like damn he's been in for 22 years so i was like eight seven or eight so very young yeah and you managed to because i'm just thinking like if you were 18 or something like that obviously it's traumatic as hell but you at least have a you know you have your view hopefully for good or bad whatever it is

obviously for good like on the world but like when you're that young you i barely remember when i was seven or eight you know what i mean and then you still found a way to have that type of perspective and obviously from the time where you were coming of age yeah in your 20s to be like oh i definitely don't want to do that clearly yeah no cut away from it here's what i want to do that. Clearly. Yeah. No cut away from it. Here's what I want to do. And here are my passions. Yeah. Um, it was a blessing, bro. You know, like, and me and my dad, we've gotten to a place where like a lot of my life, we didn't have a close relationship just because like me being young and naive, I'm like, you can't help me get where I want to go. So like,

I didn't really find value in building that relationship, but then I got older and I'm just like, yo, this, I'm a part of this guy. You know what I mean? This guy's a part of me. Um, but we had a real ass man talk and like, fortunately my dad's super, he's a brilliant dude. And like, has come to a place where like, unfortunately he has to, but he, he's proud to live through me at this point. You know what I mean? Like he looks at but he he's proud to live through me at this point you know what i mean like he looks at me and he's like yo you're you're my wildest dream and like it's funny because there's a whole quote around like us as as upwardly mobile people of color being like yo we are our ancestors wildest dreams but like having your dad who's in that situation say that to you and just be like yo like you're my wildest dream it does something to you because it's like for him he's

at a place where he's come to peace and he's just like yo if i had to do what i did in my life for you to be who you are now i'd do it again because the reality bro is like if i had my pop in my life when i was like 15 16 especially the way they were moving in our neighborhood i would have wanted to be that yeah come on man my dad was that bull so it's like the way they were moving the lifestyle that they were living i know i would have wanted to gravitate towards that so it's a blessing that i got so intimate with the reality of the situation as opposed to like the romanticism of that situation which helped me understand like okay that ain't sustainable but there's still i'm sure you have a lot understand like okay that's shitting sustainable but there's still

i'm sure you have a lot of friends who that's that's old and new like imagine friends cousins brothers well shit man i mean imagine like looking at it from my perspective or anyone that hasn't had to live in that that kind of environment like you came up in. It's like, how do you, if you're 10 or 11 and like the wrong guy starts talking to you and being nice to you, how the hell do you know? And what if it's like a family member? Like, how do you know to be like, oh, this guy is leading me down the wrong path?

You don't. You don't. And that's what I think sometimes people don't get. Like, I think a lot of people who aren't from these environments, and I'll say this too real quick. I had a very, very unique experience growing up because I got to see both sides. Like, my family's from Germantown, grew up in that whole situation. I kind of outlined my family background.

But also, I was raised by my grandmother, who was wise enough and had the foresight to be like, I got to get you in a different environment if you're actually going to be successful. So I went to high school in the burbs so like i went to high school in bucks county which is like one of the fucking wealthiest counties where'd you go to high school william tenant okay so not not council rocks up there right we play them in sports got it right so it's like right there so i'm like coming from the inner city still going back and forth but then also i'm like yo motherfuckers got in-ground pools out here like so i got to see both sides and then i could be like oh okay well all right which way i want to go perspective and not to say that like i wanted to be like those kids and in high school it's like okay i want what those kids have in a certain way exactly uh but there was a there was a clarity and perspective that got to be built but uh the thing i was gonna say is just like there's such an important role that empathy plays when people who don't really understand the nuance of the lifestyle want to look at people who are like in gangs.

They want to look at people who are living that life and like you want to just villainize really quick. But it's like, you know, like, for example, I have a friend that I grew up with since pretty young who comes from L.A. Right. And like gang culture in la like i don't even think people on the east coast especially not in this area can really even understand how deep gang culture goes it's not just oh i decided to be in a gang it's like nah i'm three generations in to this situation of that situation if like and if i want to just survive in my situation that's what i'm gonna do so when you say like what happens if like a guy takes a liking to you and shows you the ropes and looks out and you realize that like in the macro you know maybe you know maybe he's not

a good guy right but like in the micro he is a good guy he's nice to you there's a lot of people out here who are raised by let's say good bad guys wow and that's just the reality bro and it's like you could blame the the guy who decided to be the good bad guy or we can start to really zoom out and say yo like everyone's out here just trying to survive with what they have at the time and that's the thing nothing's ever changed to try to fix it at a mass scale the way it's fixed is people who through blessings in their environment like the sometimes the smallest things and through their own intuition and determination find their way to say fuck this right and and there's all different stories for it and yours is one of them but that's that's the narrative whereas the other

side of the narrative which is still the majority of it and it's all over the country it's anywhere there's a poor community right you have a bunch of people who are born into an environment that they didn't choose and they are put in a position where survival is the thought and so when survival is the thought people lean on the tribe and they lean on the people who show strength and the people that show strength are the ones who figured out how to survive and the only way to survive was to figure out how to do shit that you're supposedly not allowed to do and then all the things that come with it yeah that's a wild thing to consider so going back to your question of like the role models right like who are you looking at that's like yo this person's

getting it that's why it's so important for us to have more role models and leaders in our community because it's really fucking hard to be what you can't see wow so if you don't see people out here getting it the the right way who are you to be a fucking snotty nose kid you know fucking in that environment being like i'm gonna get a job it's like what bro so yeah it gets deep but that's why for me it's all about being able to to just lend my time my talent to a thing that can allow someone to be able to go into a space and and really create their their future without sacrificing their integrity and like a lot of times when we talk about integrity it's like on the big level of like you're doing shit that you don't really believe in but even bro walking into that job and you probably felt

like this you walk into that job and then all of a sudden you realize like you can't dress how you want to dress you can't fucking talk how you want to talk you you're really thinking this but you can't say that because then you're fucking jobs on the line like it's like yo like that's not good for humans no you feel me so it's like yo come on yo let's let's teach people how to fucking be who they are and get paid to be themselves and let's just move from there and you even made the clarification earlier, which was important that all these people who were working in cubicles in that type of system,

not bad that changed. And they went and work remote because the, the downside is no different. And there's actually some upside because you're not meant to be in this little box, you know, with a headset on it's it's a, like I didn't even work in a cubicle.

I didn't. Okay. I cubicle i didn't okay i worked with we had six people all right there and like there's a little separator but everyone sees each other whole nine even that was not natural to me and i i couldn't have known that coming out of college they don't teach you that shit in college nor do i have the expectation that that's the kind of thing they would and there's a lot of things I wish they would teach in college that's not one you kind of gotta figure that out but like you know when you're when you're around other people that's where good

things can happen and like you've said this a couple times but the whole the people you surround yourself with I'm still looking at that picture we have up there you should put that on your wall I honestly that's a perfect kind of thing right figure out how to put onto a wall in the future studio here.

A hundred percent. When I build a bigger one, like that's, that's on the list, but maybe I'll put it on a t-shirt. There you go. Actually, there you go. But, you know, finding that type of environment, it seems simple. It seems like a formula. It's like, oh yeah, just go find people who are like-minded or are cool and motivated. Well, what about where you are?

What about getting to those people? Is the only way you can get to them is joining a Discord group, which isn't going to accomplish the whole thing. Sure. Whereas, like, to me, you – and I want to ask you also about – we'll come back to it, like like what you wanted to do with your life even before this was a thought. But like you went out and you scratched your own itch here because you're like, okay, I want to go find, I'm creative, whatever it is, whatever my interest is. I want to go find these kinds of people so that I can build a community with them and then invite in other people so that they don't have to be like me and be thinking, where the hell am I going to find that? Yep. Yeah.

Look, the beauty of what I've been able to build, like you said, I got to solve my own problem first. So like before the model of Wreck was built, I literally, when I decided to quit my job, I moved into a studio in a warehouse in North Philly where me and my boy Leonzo could just be us and I put my fucking I was shooting videos at that time taking photos I built a backdrop on one John we built a recording studio for him that's the first time someone says John said John in here too I'm pretty really yeah that that's crazy i know i've been surprised the first time i said it today i know um but yeah like our couch was our co-working space right and in that space we just programmed ourselves and each other to be the entrepreneurs we wanted to be and then when all of our homies that came by never wanted to leave we realized then that it was like

oh the reason we're here is because this 600 square foot studio at 9th and Dolphin in the middle of the hood in North Philly is the only place we have in our lives to feel like ourselves. And it's got everything that we need to create and express ourselves. And it's got none of the distractions that we don't need. And other people want to be a part of it. So you got to get some more real estate yeah so i said all right well y'all is here all the time like rent is coming up in a couple weeks

we could just pitch up and we can invest in better equipment we can go from one room to two to three to five eventually we got to seven and that's when it was like yo all right y'all we have seven rooms in this warehouse that we don't own. We have over 350 members. If we can actually do something serious, not that what we're doing then wasn't serious, but it's like if we can do this right, we can raise some money and be able to really scale up in a meaningful way. And that's what we did.

But anyway, I got a little sidetracked because one of the things you said, you were like, you almost said like, what's the formula to success, right? You alluded to like the formula of like, I may have, we were just talking about a bunch of things. Maybe. It's interesting. I did my first TED talk recently. Oh, congrats, man. Thank you. How does that work, by the way? Sorry, quick sidebar.

Go for it. How do you get invited? Like, was it a TEDx? Where'd you do it? So mine was a TEDx. And the thing about TEDx is like essentially they're organized independently where TED, the official guys, say that like this person that pitches to be like, I want to hold a TEDx. We want to talk about these topics or like this theme. They then have the ability to say, hey, you can do a TEDx talk, yada, yada, yada. So it was crazy. I had a member who had invited me on their podcast. And she's, you know, we have members of all ages and stuff. She's, you know, probably in her like 40s or even 50s,

educator, super dope woman. But she invited me on her podcast. We had a great conversation, invited me on another podcast she was a part of. We had a great conversation. And then eventually she organized a Ted talk. Um, and then she was like, yo, yeah, I'm doing this Ted talk. And I was like, yo, I've always wanted to do one. Um, so then that's how that kind of came about. And what was it on? Cause I think

that's what you were starting to say. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, again, TEDx is all around a theme. So she's an educator. So the theme essentially was education. So my talk had to lend itself in some way to that topic. So when I heard education, like my brain automatically went to education reform. Yeah. Just because, and I remember watching an episode that you did and you and your boy were riffing around like the programming of the education system. Yeah.

Remember that? Yeah, Gio. Yeah. He was, I i gotta tell you man he nailed a lot of that like he put an image on it spot on spot on um so when i when i heard the education theme i was like okay education reform so my topic of my talk is when will we start teaching freedom so i pretty much break down like what I've learned to this point in my life, what has been like my secret sauce and my recipe to what my version of freedom is. You know, your whole freedom thing, though, comes from a way deeper place, too.

Like it all ties together because you wanted freedom from the community you were born into that said like this is what most of us end up being. No, I don't want to be that I want freedom from that freedom not from just to be specific not from the community but from the trappings of the community yes yes thank you for that clarification sure you wanted you wanted freedom that your dad didn't have you wanted freedom that you could go put your own Mark on things and then you wanted to take that freedom so that other people could do the same thing and you don't have to you don't have to own anybody you don't have to create a an old school model or whatever it's just like i love that gym membership thing it's literally like creating resources and saying come

on in that's it man wow you you broke that down really nicely and uh you spoke to a lot of the things in the talk oh shit i'm sorry no it's great it's great dude but that's but that's what it's about man and like you know again and we don't have to get too deep here but it's just like get deep okay so i'll put it like this one of the things i mentioned in my talk is like as a black man business and entrepreneurship is a little bit more personal for me because i come from a lineage of people who came to America on a balance sheet. We were wealth before there was wealth. Has anyone ever said that before?

Yeah, I got that quote from a woman named Pamela Jolly. Dr. Pamela Jolly. That's deep. Brilliant black woman. And literally when I heard her even speak around the concept, it blew my mind and changed my life. And I was like i've never heard it articulated that way she's like we're the only people who ever came to america on a balance sheet so the idea of us building wealth for ourselves and and not giving up our culture in the process of doing that it's the most important

thing we can ever do right Right? Because we came here. We're really valuable. Someone else thought we were valuable enough to say, hey, you're going to come and make our shit valuable. And then the people, unfortunately, that have sought out wealth for themselves that look like me have had to give up their culture in the process of doing it. So for me, it's like, yo, let's, how can we build a new reality where people can build wealth for themselves but also like still be themselves and that's why it's just so personal for me there's no better way to do that than a creator economy boom because blending in is the worst possible thing you can do in that boom you know yeah and and that's what that's really what I think I get at when we're at rec.

There's this feeling that members or even potential members get when they walk into our space. And this is no matter where you come from. But especially if you're a person of color, when you walk into our space, there's this feeling of possibility that just overwhelms you because you come into the space and you're like, damn, I don't know if I've ever been in another place that's celebrated all of who I am. You know what I mean? Like certain environments are like, oh, we love this thing about you, but like, don't bring that part.

You know? But it's like, yo, nah, I'm rec. Like, like we say, we don't, we didn't create a safe space. We created a brave space, like a space for you to really be your fullest. And most of us don't have places in our lives that really champion that, especially if you come from parents who are like, hold on, what do you want to do with your life? How are you going to make money?

What's plan B? And then you get into a space and you see other cats that are just super creative, super out there and doing it and like doing it for real. You're like, oh, there are spaces for people like me. You know what I think has been an incredible downstream cultural effect from and it's and it's more than just black creators of like everything, like all of them. But I'm going to focus on that for a second i think a huge downstream effect has been that it's also woken up people who are not people of color to realize that while on a smaller scale let's be honest here but on a much smaller scale

there are things that like i'll speak for myself that we never paid attention to in like how things work in society yeah that we never thought attention to in like how things work in society yeah that we never thought of that programming we never thought of this is how things are and you you must do it like this and so we just i mean i definitely did this we just openly jump into it because we're like oh that's what it is and that's why we've seen a huge we've seen behind the curtain i should say of corporate culture yeah and that's why people like me were like bye you know what i mean because we wouldn't have taught anything other than like hey you get the job you you marry by 30 you have a family you build a 401k you save some money you

go retire to a beach you look up at the sun and guess what you die but it was a good life right like that was sold to us for a long time and And yet even like from a lower level where there are a lot of people in black communities and in minority communities who have for years thought like, damn, that'd be amazing. oh we're not allowed to do this if we want to do that that right and so now people i feel like you talked about empathy i feel i feel like people like me today in 2021 can empathize with that much more than i would have been able to in 2001. i agree i agree and um the awareness is is the first important part um because i think like the biggest weapon of privilege is not needing to to be aware yeah you know what i mean because it's like yeah it's cool this is the system it works but then when you're like okay hold on who's it work for who doesn't it work for then it's like oh okay fuck um and i think we're finally getting to a place where like we all have the awareness of like wait this doesn't actually work even for

the people it was supposed to work for opioid crisis yeah right things like that and it gets it just starts to get messy and you know i'm not gonna say the i'll say it this way um i think the special thing about what's been happening lately is there's a bigger, there's just as big of a war on poor people as there are on black people. And now that's allowing other allies to come into the fight from a real place. Wait, what do you mean by that? I think in America, historically, there's been a war on black people. Sure.

Agreed. And a lot of darker people, but I'll just say black people. But now it's like the only thing worse than being black is being poor. I think I know what you mean. So if I'm not following you when i say this just correct the record for me but one of my favorite topics i favorites the wrong word but it's something i like to talk about because it doesn't get attention is the moving wealth gap in this country crazy okay so we're on the same wavelength yep yeah what blows my mind is that simultaneously we have bad coming from both angles because we're

pushing people against each other with that quote-unquote war on poor people which i agree there is one and that is people will come in and say now like if you're poor there's more why don't i have that when someone does because by the way some of the people who do maybe didn't earn it other people did right but even for the people who did were like wait you have a ferrari i want one too there's this whole john borick was in here he described that beautifully there is this this weird like jealousy in society that then leads us to attack people in power strictly because they earn power however it's a that's a defense mechanism by the way exactly it is a I believe everything in the

world is I think I'm scientifically backed on this everything in the world is a response so what do you respond to you respond to years and years of people telling you no fuck you yeah and now just maybe if there's some different people in there who weren't the ones doing that guess what yeah you're just in the position now where that's what it is and i'm not saying it's right i don't believe in either yeah but i'm saying you have to like the people at the highest level of society i'm talking the one of the one percent of the one of the one of the one people who actually run people governments people who run the biggest corporations the people who people are talking about when they use the terrible grouping that they call the illuminati exactly that's i use that all the time i'm glad you said that i always talk about the illuminati this

illuminati but like those people they have managed to allow that gap to form which check every stat there is since the 1980s it is unquestionable it has happened they've allowed that to form, which, check every stat there is, since the 1980s, it is unquestionable. It has happened. They've allowed that to form, and they've kept things afloat by convincing all the people, in my opinion, down here. And I'm not even just talking poor people. I'm talking the full 99%, but let's zone in on the fact that we have way too high of a number of poverty in this country for what we are capable of that's great they have convinced all these people that along certain controversial lines you should hate each other and fight such that you ignore the issues at the top and that's why i'm very outspoken about like the of the two-party system all that stuff but it's much more

than that yeah that's yeah that's it that's the's the trap. The trap is fight the people that are three blocks away from where you live as opposed to the people who have created the realities for both of you. Yeah. That's been the age-old thing. You know what, though? You get to see people come in with a smile on things regardless of where, you know, what their background is, what their interests are. They come in there to that brave space and they're motivated. You know what I mean? They're not thinking about who won the last election

or what's going on down the street with a rally or something like that. They're like, all right, I'm here to create right now. I agree. Yes, and one, yes, there's such a positive energy in our space. That's just what we've bred. I think that's just who our folks are. But also the cool thing is there is a large population of our members who inherently lend their creativity to some level of activism. Yeah, and that's not what I was getting at.

I was getting at like – They're not mad at the world. I was getting at when they come in there, they can at least – when they're creating some things, while they while their work they will work in some activism on a certain level about things they're passionate about as they should they can at least block out some of the things that drive them nuts all the time that's correct when they're not inherently creating those assets that directly like that's correct so for by the way for someone like as an example for someone who has a podcast that talks about social justice this doesn't apply like every single thing they're creating you know what i mean so like i'm talking about the person who's an artist they're

painting they're a musician whatever there's an aspect to which they'll focus on it but like they can at least get away from it yeah they can at least say like all right there's so because like even the things they're passionate about the people that they want to you know get out of power to who aren't passionate about those things or whatever, they're just replaced by people who suck too. And unfortunately, these activists, they know that. Yeah. Politics is a very slow-moving game. Yeah.

But that's the thing though, man. That space is important though because it's like if you don't get that couple hours a day or couple hours a week or even couple hours a month to be able to like okay I can exhale that's the shit that winds you up and makes you go crazy eventually if you don't have those spaces of expression well that's why a lot of people went crazy like not just creatives

like everyone went crazy in the pandemic wild wild there's no place to put all that rage so they put it in comment sections and think that that gets it out and it's like oh man it doesn't it ain't no it ain't it's just yeah it ain't but what about like during because you know there's still like all these variants and all this shit flying around like how did you guys do sit like on the physical side like the physical space side when this all hit because i would imagine for a while there you weren't having anyone roll through yeah we couldn't

you know the city um one i'll just say was a fucking roller coaster especially emotionally um just because for context we opened the brand new space December of 2019. Three months later, we get whispers of this thing's happening, right? And I'll never forget, man, it was mid-March. And I did a fireside chat with Damon John from Shark Tank, and all that. And I was leading up to the event, we're worried because we're like, yo, is he still gonna be down to do this? Like the world's going crazy. But fortunately, he still was still was like yeah we're gonna make this happen um that's awesome but then literally the next day the city passed um the ordinance or whatever and they were like yo physical spaces that aren't um you know necessities in some way had to shut down

and um it was a killer because it was like yo i worked so hard our whole team worked so hard to even make that space possible so to hear that because of nothing that we did we had to close the doors it was just like no we're staying open like I went through all those emotions of grief and denial and all that you know um and then it got to a point where it was just like yo we had to figure out how we could still uphold the mission without having this beautiful million-dollar facility. How did you do that? Man, I mean, one, like I was mentioning, a lot of what we do is about education. So almost overnight, and I'm, like, super proud of the team.

Like, overnight, we transitioned the, what, we had 22 events on the calendar that month. Overnight, all of them went virtual. So literally, there was like almost no interruption of the educational stuff so we really pivoted quickly and still were able to bring in industry experts to do these like you know zoom johns and then we got like wirecast and like made it sexier but like but you had the wirecast in there yeah we'd use wirecast for some of our programming to just make it oh i thought you were referring to the show we got the wirecast to come oh no no no no yeah that's fucking sick nah you know like obs wirecast yeah okay

not not familiar but okay okay yeah but no we didn't have like the cast of the wire because that would be fire that would have been awesome yeah right rest in peace to my guy too oh my god yeah jesus christ um but yes overnight all of that um programming went virtual so that was a way to just you know keep people informed so that way it's like yo you're in the crib now don't stop building your business don't stop you know understanding digital strategy because it's more important now than ever so that was cool and then after that man it was like yo we just me and my co-founder dave looked at each other and we're just like bro like we have to figure out how we can support creators and we literally just picked up the phone and started calling members and at this time we had almost 900 members so literally we're like all

right bro let's look at the database and all right cool i'll call this 50 you call that 50 and let's keep going until it's done so we're literally talking to people and literally just asking like what do you need right now and you know a lot of our members are people who are making money touring or they're a photographer that makes all their money shooting weddings all done all their income went to zero yeah so one of the things that we didn't think we would need to do um we decided to say yo let's let's create a grant program and let's give people cash you know and um that was a really hard business decision because like didn't make sense right from the textbook shareholder value wasn't a textbook time though nah it wasn't a textbook time and like we're not one of those companies that just like

preach community like we work for example i was wondering when that was going to come up you know like they talk about community but like drinking from the same keg is not community. But anyway, it was like, yeah, what does our people need right now? And it was cool because we have this positioning in Philly of being right in there with the creative community, but also in the traditional business community, especially like the startup community. And it allowed us to really leverage that positioning and say, yo, all these companies who have been saying, oh, we love creators, we love, you know what I mean? Like all this and that. It was like, cool. Well, we need you right

now. So if you're really about what you said, now is the perfect time to put your money where your mouth is so we can raise funds to be able to help our creators who need these stipends. So the live nations of the world did boom the live nations the ballard spar which is like a law firm yeah to the gurus of the world which is one of the biggest startups in the city like and they did it you know and even down to like the comcast right so we were able to distribute over sixty thousand dollars worth of of grants to people wow and like doing things like that again, it's like, that's not scalable per se, or that wasn't a part of the model, but sometimes it's like listening to your community and then showing up for

them. That's what allowed us when we reopened six months later, we got 85% of our members back like almost overnight. And you guys only had that big physical space around for three months. Three months, bro. Three months. That's amazing.

It was nuts. And then what's the result of that? So 2020, we're close, six out of 12 months, which is nuts. Still grew our membership base, highest revenue to date. You know what I mean? And that really just came from us pivoting understanding what our people needed delivering on that and showing up for people to help them understand like yo this ain't just about the transaction we're really doing what we say we do and people feel that you know what i mean like

what what companies can you say like yo the founder called me when i was down and was like yo bro how can i help that's awesome you know so that's how that went. And like, on the other side of it, it's like, it helped me as a founder and someone who's, you know, on the product side of things, be like, yo, there, there were still hundreds of members who were still like, yo, I'm riding out. I'm still gonna, even though I can't get in the space to record, like, I'm still gonna pay my membership. And I love those people. I'm like, yo, shout out y'all. Cause that's some real, real deal stuff right there. But that's – you know what? Take credit for that.

I mean you're a humble guy, but I'm going to give you credit for that. Like you don't get that type of response if you don't create the space for it to give it. Like people have to be motivated – not motivated, inspired to want to be a part of that. And I'll even say that maybe with the businesses too, the big places to an extent, right? Facts. that and i'll even say that maybe with the businesses too the big places to an extent right like it the people who are who are paying it forward there are yes they're investing in rec philly but like they're investing in your team they're investing in the fact that okay these people really give a shit yeah and what's what's really coming across today and it's it's a rare it's a rare talent but people who do special things have it is that you're a guy like you're this very nice late i would describe you as a laid-back guy you are not in people's face flipping

out like you're you're just you're just a nice guy like i like being around you but you don't take no for an answer and i and i mean that in the sense that like not if it's like hey don't kill somebody all right i'll say no to that no problem but like i mean like in figuring out how to provide value yeah the people who find a way to be like let's find a way yeah rather than no we can't do that yeah rare yeah that's what it's about man and like um i don't really take credit to for that personally that's more of just like again I take the good with the bad and like I was raised in a way that I couldn't take no for an answer I didn't have that privilege so I'm gonna figure it out right again coming from where I came from and then going to the burbs it's like oh field trip I want to go to the Franklin Institute my parents might not had a bread

but I gotta to find it. Hustling Pokemon cards, whatever I got to do, you know what I'm saying? But that was just built. I mean, I think that's what helped me build the entrepreneur muscle. You know what I mean? So I'm grateful for all that stuff. But yeah, the other thing though, is in that time when I realized that people were still showing up for us and being like, yo, I'm not canceling my membership. I want to be here. It helped me understand that there is value in a digital membership as well. So for folks who may not be in proximity to the actual hub and the physical space, people are taking value out of the educational program. People are taking value in being on the app and being able to go through the directory, connect with other members and this and that, look at the opportunity board,

being able to get gigs. So it helped me build a digital membership that we're going to use to scale around the country. And what's cool about that is the digital membership is going to help us be informed about like, where's our tribe well before we put a brick in that city. You know, because right now we're getting ready to go to our first expansion city, which is super exciting. But as we roll that out, you know,

we get to also roll out this digital tier, which is going to be really exciting having that foresight though where you have people who it's like they're bought in and they're motivated to want to be the conduit that makes you know rec dc and like all these different things yeah where it's not like you have to write down the business plan of like in March, 2022, we're going there. It's more like, all right,

let's see where we're at. Let's take care of those people. Let's not take care. Let's bring them in the fold. And then eventually you're going to inspire the question to get popped on their end, which is, Hey,

can we do that? Exactly. And that's, that's, that's what's beautiful. It's like my job right now and the reason i love doing things like this is i get to just fucking share my perspective yeah and i know that there's a lot of people out there who who think the same way i think they're already doing

really meaningful work in whatever city they're from trying to help creatives and you know the one thing that we did is we've been able to build the model and we found success with it but it's like yeah we didn't just solve a philly problem no So at this point, it's like, yo, I want to go find the Will and Dave and Scarlett of Miami, of Atlanta, of Chicago, of Detroit, you know what I mean? Of San Juan, Puerto Rico, of London, and say, yo, guys, here's the model. Don't fucking take seven years to build it from scratch. Let's figure out how we can be partners in this in a meaningful way. And that's what it's all about.

For me, the vision is we want 50 of these around the world so that way when you know a dope talented Creator like yourself build from the hometown build your tribe on the internet maybe you want to go do a live podcast in London because you got you know 4 000 fans out there yeah you can do that in a way of like I know there's resources waiting for me i know there's a venue waiting for me i know there's like-minded people waiting for me as opposed to what most artists do is they lose a bunch of money on the road on that first turn and they go to the cd hotels and they struggle to find a place to record so they record on the bus and it's like nah we got to help for you what did the artists who succeeded with the pandemic that you saw like in your community even or even outside do to make like a fuck ton of money when all of their live shows dried up? That's a good question.

I think the artists who found success through the pandemic, they did a couple of things really well one they really took a hard look at what value they were actually delivering to their people you know again it's not everyone understands that like bro the music ain't actually the product maybe the product's actually the feeling you give people so how do you still show up and give people that feeling, even if it's not just through whatever you were doing in person, right? Like, you know, like for me, we were really preaching the understanding of like self-awareness and consistency because it's like some artists crush it in the live space. And it's not just because they can only deliver that feeling when you're six feet away in front of the concert, but it's like like how do you tap into your creativity so you can create the content that delivers that feeling and that emotion so artists that were doing that um artists that were vulnerable enough to really connect with their fans and like communicate like a lot of people sometimes as creators like we want to hide

behind like the screen but we're afraid to actually dm somebody and be like yo here's what i'm working on what do you think right like like here's a for example like here's a gem this is something that i always tell musicians when they're about to release a project that for some reason no one ever thinks to do before you release a new album that you've worked on for two years and spent all your money on, why not make a list of a hundred people that you know are your fans? People who genuinely talk about you and have paid you money before, right? Most people don't even know. They couldn't even tell me who their top a hundred fans were. You should be able to do that. How meaningful would it be if you took the time to direct message all 100 of those people

and say yo my new project's coming out in a couple weeks i would really love for you to check out this private link if it resonates let me know what you think help me share it when it comes out they don't understand how much like like who's who's one of your favorite musicians i got a lot man give me one let's go with poc over there okay so he's not alive but if poc ever did that to you and sent you might be that's hilarious maybe maybe on an island not really but if poc ever reached out to you and was just like yo bro here's my album let me know what you think you know how crazy you're gonna be when that album drops just running around telling your homies like

bro guess who hit me up i got to hear this way before yada yada yada like there's such a value that that artist gave you just because you feel seen right and you become a marketing machine right we call that earned media right But the artist has to be like self-aware enough and vulnerable enough to actually want to engage in that way and remind each other that we're all humans as opposed to just being, I'm not going to talk to nobody. I'm just going to drop my album and everybody better listen. No one deserves, no one owes you that time.

Yeah, that's not the way the world works now, you know? Right, but things like that, right? So people who just had the self-awareness to be like yo um i'm gonna find other meaningful ways to engage they they won and then other people who like didn't disrespect the digital people who respected it and like leaned in and was like yo what can i create and how it's all about connection and they just they thrived in that yeah and and like the people who tried it, it really depended like what you were in. I know that a lot of people in certain spaces were like, all right, it's not the same. It's also not the same, for example, to do a virtual concert.

Right, it's not the same. No one's arguing that it is. Virtual concerts suck. Yeah, it's not the thing. But what else is there? You were making the point of like if if someone crazy like a huge person hit you up the one pushback on that would be if i'm an up-and-coming creator right versus versus like if if poc hit you up i would say bro it does they don't even have to

be crazy like for example um i went to college out in pittsburgh i was in i was out there 2009 to 2012 mac miller wasn't a superstar yeah he kind of blew up like 2013 2014 whiz same thing if they did that at that time bro it would still mean the world you think so yeah yeah bro especially if like because I think the relationship to it to our indie artist and like if you really really really love the art you almost like the artist more before their household name so like that is true that best kept secret feeling that's your secret sauce you know it's like the weekend the weekend was one of those for me right because it's pure like when no one knew who he was my buddy drake unrelated different person um my buddy drake put me onto the weekend

yeah literally he was sitting in like the main room in the house at college yeah bumping the weekend and i'm just like walking through the room and i'm like the is room in the house at college yeah bumping the weekend and I'm just like walking through the room and I'm like the is that yeah and I go up to him and he like goes to hand me a joint I'm like no no what's the music yeah and he's like oh this is the weekend he's fire I'm like Superstar and I I'll never because that song was wicked games and so even though he's had a lot of unbelievable music since then that I love that's the best song you ever made bro you right now have super fans that if you've reached out to them they're y'all bro i've been a pop i've been a listener since episode 20 i do talk with them yes as you should they're awesome but but

some people just overlook that and because they don't have a hundred thousand followers they don't think that the the connection's deep see i don't i want to be careful then because i'm the opposite on that i love talking with the fans like when people hit me up in my dms who i haven't talked to before i'm asking them questions i'll go back and forth i'll form a relationship with them because i'm so curious about who they are yeah because this is such an we talk about a whole bunch of shit in here you know what i mean there's all kinds of people rolling through here that are just like wild perspective. So it's like, well, what do you really,

what do you vibe with here? I'm always curious. And that's the best question I ask. Dude, they give me phenomenal answers. And so I don't doubt that value. And by the way, some of them will, I'm very bad at asking for things, which I have to get better at.

But like some of them absolutely share the hell out of it. And it's true. My question is how many people, if it's like, if someone crazy hits you up, I mean, people are going to take a picture of the message and send it out to people and then never, you know what I mean? Like there's another level to it. What I didn't want to say in that argument though, and I may have said this inadvertently, so let me correct the record, is that it doesn't mean that there isn't a real value there and that people will be more motivated overall across the diaspora of people you reach out to to do something for you yeah I think you're right about that yeah I think we just um we we look at here let me say the answer to the question you asked me originally in a simpler way the people who won in the pandemic the artists who won are the people who realized that their fan base was a community

and not just an audience that's who won communities they want to help like people if you want to build an audience give them something to watch or something to listen to but if you want to build a community give them something to do so when i could reach. But if you want to build a community, give them something to do. So when I could reach out to one of my fans and be like, yo, I'm working on this project. I really need this thing. There's people who I know would reach out and be like, yo, my uncle has that thing.

I could ask him if you just let me pull up to the... They're a fan for life now because they got a got a level of access that like they never expected to get But again some artists some creators they don't have that perspective It's like they want to be cooler than life, you know what I mean, and they want to show up perfect But it's like they don't understand that that vulnerability is actually like the superpower. They're not like you That's what they want to put off so blow your mind. It's that yeah, they're not like this. It's like this I want to show you something after because he did it way better than me but I'll do a real cliff note version real fast there's a guy named Charlie Jabali they call him Charlie rocket you ever hear him he was it was a fat kid in his mom's

basement like as he would describe himself who loved hip-hop okay and so he ended up like building a studio down there when he's a kid invited in all this talent around Atlanta ends up finding two chains blows up yeah like the whole nine so he's like he's had an interesting life he's very vulnerable about it all his struggles and stuff but he's a motivational kind of speaker guy now and you know sometimes it's like a little rah-rah and i'm like okay whatever but some of his theories are so unreal and he had one where he talked about figuring out who was it started with who's the highest grossing superhero of all time across the franchises right and so he was expecting it to be batman or superman like good looking one it was spider-man spider-man was the

average looking dude from like a lower middle class household parents died you know no chiseled chin whatever and he's like all right what about what about religion what's the biggest religion in the world and he's like Christianity by following sure he goes all right who's the face there Jesus right carpenter wore shitty clothes hung around poor people what wasn't riding around in like this armor and everything yep and he's like all right what about sports not lebron's fault not kobe's fault but michael jordan because michael jordan was the guy who got cut from his high school basketball team who even as much of a dick as he might be sometimes people ignore that because they see like he's he's like you he had the struggle and then flawed hero yes yes and the

final one you'll love he's like if it could be true for a corporation, I'm on to something here. He's like, what's the best, what's the most important corporation of all time? Apple. Who founded Apple? That guy, Steve Jobs. And he's like, Steve Jobs was the first guy to not wear a suit. He had a beard. He looked like your dad.

He was a crotchety guy. You know what I mean? And he's like, holy like holy all these people aren't the perfect environment they they they're not from the perfect environment they're not the perfect people they have flaws and they have strengths but they come from a basis that is just like the average person and you can see yourself in them boom that's it that's that's the recipe and i think um what's interesting is a lot of creators fall into the trap to think that they gotta be perfect

and then they wanna play it up and be something they're not when really it's like nah bro you're making yourself unrelatable right you know so yeah that's it one last question for you

cause I know you gotta go and thanks for doing this in a crunch obviously I was mixed up with the time so I really appreciate that but where do you see like you've talked about expanding across cities which obviously is coming now and congratulations that's awesome super excited about it but like is your only thought right now building out like the rec community or they're also like some dreams you have even if it's like five ten years down the road that you want to slowly get through yeah I got I got a bunch of those I'll name a few okay um I would like to build the rec community though 50 cities I know

we're just at a really beautiful moment in history fortunately I made a big bet early and uh the universe has kind of caught up to where we are so I do believe I'm going to build a billion dollar business that is REC so I'm excited for that and then after that well I'll say before that like right now one of the things you're going to see you know last five six seven years I just put everything into building REC and I kind of just like hid in a cave and was building the product and was like don't look at me just look at this but now I'm really excited to like do it for me, you know? So I'm going to be continuing to build my own personal brand, which is exciting because I'm about to drop a book

in a couple of months. Oh, that's awesome. Yeah, thank you. And it's around that whole curriculum that we explain at REC, how do you get paid to be yourself? And I love the fact that I can not say that in theory, but to just point to myself as an example, right? And just show people, yeah, this is what good digital strategy looks like.

Things like that. So you'll see me continue to grow as a public speaker, you know, creative coach, you know, consulting and things like that. And then after that, man, my next dream is one to go into architecture. Designing the space of rec has been one of the most fulfilling things I've ever done. Wow, that's like out of left field. I was not. Yeah, but it's not though. And it'll still make sense after I explain why.

But you want to go into architecture. I'm already an architect, right? I design rec space, right? And I'm going to design other things. No shit. Look, I wish we could talk for another hour. But I'll say this. I used to think architecture was about building buildings.

It's not. Architecture is about designing people. Someone asked me one time, they were like, yo, who do you think is the most important architect to your life? And I was like, I don't know who fucking built City Hall or this building or that. They're like, no. They're like Ben Franklin. And I was like, why?

And they were like, well, like ben franklin and i was like why and they were like well ben franklin designed the row home and i and i was like say more about that ben franklin at a time where you know they were trying to get free from england yada yada they're paying taxes he designed the row home to be tall and skinny so it'd have a small footprint because he knew that the bigger the footprint the more property tax you'd have to pay to England. Because he made that decision as an architect, the socioeconomic status of Philadelphia is the way it is. Low resources, high amount of population. My life is what it's been.

So the idea of designing space and place with the understanding that if you do that intentional enough, it can design the outcomes of the people and the communities that live in it. That's why I want to be an architect. But anyway, so that's one thing. That's some deep shit, man. It's real. And next time I come back, dude, we have to riff on that level. So I want to do that.

I also want to be a venture capitalist. I would love to be able to use my wealth to invest in other people with young, brilliant ideas. And then eventually, after those things, I think for some reason, I'm going to be always drawn back to talent management. But I don't want to do that anytime soon, because it's a headache. It can be a big headache, but it takes a special person to be the good person to do it. You know, there's a lot of, I always tell people, because I've had a few sit across from me and i've known a lot of people in that industry it's a low competition rate because there's a lot of assholes in that there's a lot of really bad people so if you're a good person it may take a little while but holy shit are you gonna stand out like once you get a couple to go

people are gonna be like oh i like that guy facts you know it'll punish you at first because you're not a snake but holy shit man we need more of that in there so i'm all for that yeah man but that's it uh you know public speaker doing all that thing just sharing what i know architect venture capitalist and then bring it all back a little bit everything yeah creative entrepreneur man that's awesome well you walk the talk of what you do and thank you for coming in here and sharing some of your story i appreciate that i like what's going on i like the way you think too and i got to check out that ted talk in your book yeah please do two things how about this one check out the ted talk it's out um my books just got printed so next time i see you hopefully you can

come by rec i would love to give you a tour absolutely i'd love to just give you an early copy oh that's amazing yeah we'll do that. Cool. All right. Well, thanks brother. Appreciate you. I'll see you soon. Everyone else, you know what it is. Give it a thought. Get back to me. Peace.