Julian Dorey Podcast - #69 - A Happy Society Is Not A Profitable Society: Jack O'Hara

Episode Date: October 13, 2021

Jack O’Hara is a journalist and podcaster. Currently, he hosts the O’Show Podcast in Phoenix, Arizona.     ***TIMESTAMPS*** 0:00 - Intro; Twitter Culture and learning about people based upon how they tweet; rabbithole experiments; Choose your hard; The Happy Society Paradox; Politician’s websites 43:59 - Aspirations; Sports vs. Art; Why people seem to hate on Joe Rogan and Dave Portnoy; Cold takes 1:09:16 - The drive to take people out of context; Intent; A story about Dave Chappelle; BLM & The Black Squares; “First one to punch wins” culture; Proactivity vs. Reactivity 1:34:23 - A phrase we should stop using; Not having the answers; All it takes is one rat on the ship; Leverage; The obvious difference between a Congressman and a Homeless person 1:55:16 - The Drive to build; Niche Influencers who lose their market; Different people, different means to happiness 2:12:01 - The importance of your surroundings; Why Julian was wrong about Carmelo Anthony; How Jorge Posada’s career ended 2:30:38 - Jack discusses talking with Yeonmi Park; A shocking Dave Matthews story; A story about Travis Scott’s live performance vision; Rob Schneider’s awesome; A chilling Howard Stern - Robin Williams story ~ YouTube EPISODES & CLIPS: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0A-v_DL-h76F75xik8h03Q  ~ Get $100 Off The Eight Sleep Pod Pro Mattress / Mattress Cover: https://eight-sleep.ioym.net/trendifier  Julian's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/julianddorey  ~ Beat provided by: https://freebeats.io  Music Produced by White Hot Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Everybody was just starving there. People were being eaten as they were dying by flies and rats. Can you imagine witnessing that? No. It's one thing to imagine that. It's another thing to actually witness that as you're escaping. Like she did. What's cooking everybody if you are on youtube right now please hit that subscribe button hit that like button and thank you as always for checking out the channel to everyone who is

listening on apple or spotify thank you for checking out the show there if you haven't already hit that subscribe button on apple hit that follow button on Spotify, and I look forward to seeing you guys again for future episodes. Now, I am joined in the bunker today by Mr. Jack O'Hara. Jack is, among other things, the host of The O Show podcast out in Arizona. And not for nothing, the guy's like 400 and some episodes deep in this. He's been doing it for a few years does a great job i had a chance to go on a few weeks ago and so he was coming through the east coast to visit as he's originally from new jersey and we brought him through for a podcast here in the bunker what i'll say is that for all of you who are who have been a fan of this show

for a while this is a classic trying to fire podcast this was just a good old-fashioned three-hour philosophical discussion shooting the shit about a whole bunch of different shit and i really enjoyed it enjoyed having jack through here and i hope you guys enjoy it as well that said you know what it is i'm julian dory and this is trying to fire let's and this is Trendfire. do it if you don't like the status quo start asking questions one of his quotes and again this is a basic quote but he gets credit for it um i'd rather be hated for who i am than loved for who i am not and i think that's you know a different route than what we were talking yeah it's a general

quote but if you look it up, he gets credit for it. I'd rather be hated for who I am than loved for who I am not. And that's what I would have written on this, but it would have been way too small. I don't think the camera would have seen it, so I wanted to explain it. Again, the best songwriter of his generation, completely misunderstood by a wide variety of the audience. And granted, he took his own life and everybody sees that like okay and you you definitely see it and you hear it in his voice and you see it in his lyrics you know like he was tortured after but at the same yeah after exactly

and everybody sees it now is like oh my god like he was one of the best ever but in his time was he appreciated yes you know nirvana was the number one band i think in the world at that point in 1991 like right there with michael jackson when it came to the top of the charts uh but i don't think he got the respect he deserved in that sense of oh he's just a crazy person we were talking about kanye before we came on here you know like people misinterprets him for being just a crazy son of a bitch. But you don't know what makes him tick. And obviously what makes him tick is him being true to himself

because that's the reason he got to where he was. He was finally acknowledged as someone who beats, or his heart beats to the, what's that saying? I'm going to mess it up. He beats to his heart beats to the what's that saying i'm gonna mess it up he beats to his own drum you know um and that sense of i know you don't like this word authenticity because if you say it on the air it's like i you don't mean it but you know staying true to yourself like you and you alone are the only version of you right and that's kind of a broad way to say it but you your own identity is shaped by

you believing in yourself your own values your own opinions you know your own takes as opposed to saying yeah that's you know like and i've heard you have conversations you know the one with taylor wrinkle that you had on here talking about you know people in the comment section saying like yeah that sucked and then someone's just like yeah yeah you're right that's awful because people are too afraid to give their own opinions their own takes their own thoughts their own values because of what other people might say or think of them even people that don't necessarily care what other people think of them they're thinking like this isn't going to help me this isn't going to help my brand people on the other end also take it too seriously though too like content creators yeah they They don't realize it's usually a reflection on that person or sometimes they're literally like just kidding and side swiping, which is also kind of a reflection on them.

But I've never totally understood why people get so up in arms about that. I generally find it funny and usually treat it as such if someone attacks like the brand quote-unquote of the show like tries to say it's a scripted podcast or something publicly i make sure i respond publicly to that and you know burn the forest down to make sure they understand that's not the case but usually when it comes to like opinions or takes i'm like hey man what's your take you know put it here or like sometimes or takes, I'm like, hey, man, what's your take? You know, put it here. Or like sometimes if they're clearly a lost cause, I'll send them hearts. Like I don't know that I would have had that presence of mind to think of it that way if I were 20.

In fact, I'll go so far as to say I absolutely would not have. I would have taken it also personally. So when I see some of these kids blown up when they're 15, 16, 17, I empathize with that heavy because like I can't imagine having all those hormones going through my brain and seeing these random people on the internet tell me I'm the second coming of Hitler or whatever it is they say, like ridiculous things. It's unnatural. It's hard to deal with. But I think as time goes on and the older you get, you kind of realize like who the fuck is – there's literally some guy like PenisDog420. Like who is this person behind this at symbol that has a blank account and is making these comments? And by the way, PenisDog420, I don't know if you've been nasty on there. I just remember that name because it was fucking wild. But like people – you have to think about where it comes from.

And then by the way, it's also – sometimes it's not even a real person. It's a bot account. So I don't know. I keep it in perspective. But it's a very weird thing when you have an audience you can't see speaking to some of these people who have had that attention just hide behind their accounts yeah and they get bothered by it and they're not thinking of it that way they're not thinking this is just someone hiding behind their account man and that's i wish they would i wish the celebrities would because they their life would be a lot less

stressful if they did i think there's a lot of celebrities out there that have taken that into account be like it's what like i never look at the comments but like every now and then like you'll hear like comedians be like all right let's listen to some of the feedback and then you know immediately you just get triggered just like oh someone doesn't like my stuff like oh that really hit home just the way they said it you know but like i i don't understand what makes people think that way to think just like like i'm never on like i you do you have a twitter account i do do you actually go after people or like tweet on a daily basis like what's going on in your life my twitter account i like have kept pretty private i just

kind of like i'm on there doing whatever but yeah like i'm i'm i'm not a shit talker on twitter i'll put some opinions out a lot of opinions i have i don't put them out on twitter it's just whatever i i let it i let it simmer but i'm not you get me my name is on my twitter i'll tell you what i think and if i want to come at something like it's there in the open publicly yeah that's that's really what and then i'll engage in the conversation but i'm not i mean i see what people do on twitter i don't do any of that the worst is the sub tweeters yeah yeah wish you would have been different like what yeah twitter is a very weird beast it has a lot of twitter is the place where

i think sometimes you can actually learn the most about people if they actually have their name on the account because they there's enough of a separation from the imagery of society that they feel comfortable to say things that maybe they wouldn't even say on Facebook or Instagram or definitely TikTok or something like that. And so there's good and bad to come with that. But I think a huge downside of Twitter is the echo chambers that the algorithm pushes you into. Because you think about it, people have 280 characters to put a thought out. There's threads, but most people read the first or second of the thread, don't read the rest. So they're reading the quickest bytes that want to get across context slash a story with an opinion and a judgment. Yeah. In 280 characters.

Now take that times 100 different people who are thinking along the opinion, the final opinion of whatever that one example tweet there is. And now you read 100 of them from all these other people. And now add that every day. Repetition, repetition, repetition. You want to talk about being pushed into believing things holy shit man there's no better model than that it's better it's it is even better than like a visual like tiktok and instagram because you actually have to invest in both seeing and hearing and what and like literally watching how someone does does it versus

just reading a few quick words and scrolling oh yeah 100 and i think that comes with inexperience too because if someone just looks at that be like oh that's what it must be you know like people don't see the lies and the manipulation behind it and everything that goes into doing something like that right 100 i I think the lack, the general lack of self-awareness of the social media user, including myself at various points in my life for a long time, I would say, is rampant. I mean, I don't have a percentage for you, but it's in the 90s. It's most people. And it's not very often, it's not at all their intention. It's just how it turns out.

One of the things I do, and I'm very grateful to do a podcast like this where I talk with all different people. So I'm literally forced professionally to stay here, and I'm sure you can relate to that. You got to stay up kind of above the noise. But one of the things I do is I make sure I go down the rabbit hole of the left and the right and i'll do it back to back even and what's amazing is what i mean by that is i'll go find certain trending tags that are more associated with one extreme or the other and i will read through 100 200 tweets just to see and then read the comment read the replies and see what people are thinking and every time i step back and whenever it's something extreme like that with very few if any exceptions whatever the opinion is i disagree with because i don't believe in extremes so i

think that whatever they're saying is most likely wrong as i go into it there's adrenaline junkies honestly yes yes it's kind of weird right it's very weird oh it's very weird like how did you get to that point like it's one thing to have beliefs i respect that you know like i respect everyone's beliefs and their thoughts and their opinions on what they think is right or wrong but to be an extremist and actually go out and threaten people like why that's a question i ask a lot it's a question and i don't i don't think there's definitely an insecurity there like there's definitely there's some obvious points like that yes yes like everyone has insecurities right not that we would admit it you know yes publicly all the time you have insecurities i know i have insecurity everybody has insecurities but like to get to that point of like i'm going to go out of

my way to threaten you because you don't believe in what i believe in like you're stupid you're wrong i'm right it's nonsensical the thing is when i will finish down a rabbit hole of one of them, and I know my opinion on the issue, I then think about it and I say, okay, assuming I didn't have an opinion or didn't have a good evidence back opinion before I read that. And assuming I went into it without realizing I was reading an extreme without knowingly, like I am going to go, cause it's a plan for me. I'm going to go read what the right has to say. I'm going to go read what the right has to say i'm going to go read what the left has to say when i take all that apart and then ask myself at the end of whatever it is i was going through ask myself do i buy the arguments that were just made the answer is almost always more yes than no. Really? Oh, yeah. Because what happens is it's like anything else.

It's like a repetition. You read it over and over. Things can sound better and better as you go. And you can then start to believe it. Now, I step back out and I go, okay, well, that was all horseshit, right? But in thinking about it at the first point, like unbiased guy, if I had gone in there unknowingly, read it, would I kind of buy this? Yeah, I would. point like unbiased guy if i had gone in there unknowingly read it would i kind of buy this yeah i would and it goes to show you i can read back to back the opposite opinions on something and like i'll do it with the vaccines all the time now i can read the left and the right on vaccines and think that you are the dumbest person ever if you don't get it or you are the dumbest

person ever if you get it when i'm done reading yeah because the way they and they the other thing is there's a lot of fake data put in there there's a lot of fake bullshit to bolster your argument whether you are going to be proven right or wrong by history aside i don't know i'm saying they will back up things just to make their case and they will use anecdotes and you're not thinking like oh i mean i am but for many parts of my life i never thought like oh this is an anecdote you know like you remember what was the one because everyone was fighting over when when trump joined the campaign in 2016 or in 2015 and made immigration a big thing they were fighting over that and that's still obviously like this whole argument but there was one case this is just a really good example there was like a woman who was killed

i want to say in san francisco which was like a sanctuary city in 2016 no she had been killed in like 2013 2014 2015 somewhere in there and they my point is i'll i'll find out what it was but people could look it up they used it in every immigration argument about why we can't have immigration because look what they did to megan or whoever she was it's like you hear that and you're like oh my god this is a disaster they're all bad then you think about it and you're like okay not good that whoever did that was let in here. We can all agree with that. Maybe the system needs some fixing because of that.

But does that mean that they're all like that? No. You know what I mean? Like it's good and it's bad. And so what you end up hearing is people are like, we can't have any of it. We're scared of it. Or we need all of them. They're all good people.

They want to be here in america and they use those little anecdotes instead of some pragmatism along with some good old human emotion which you need some of they don't combine those two it's it's just one or the other and things like twitter to me totally reinforce that it's the best example yep in my opinion uh 100 and i think it's more human emotion than anything else at least from what i've seen you know like if you asked me before like oh what's going on in the world today i'm like i have no idea i don't have cable i don't i don't listen to the news like i will go into an argument like that completely unbiased you know like i don't lean right i don't lean left i really don't know much about politics to begin with you know like i'm just a kid in a candy store i'm just happy to be here right you're just watching all of this go down and you're right you know you take bits and

pieces you're like oh i agree with that i kind of disagree with that but then you take a step back and you're just like ah is it all crazy like are people like is this all bullshit i don't know so that's why it's just easier to stay out of it all together, right? It is easier. And it's kind of nice, too, when you do it. And that's one of those things that's easier and it's okay. You know, some people be like, you know, you got to choose your hard, right? Like, that's something that's, I'm okay not knowing that.

I'm okay not having. You got to choose your what? Your hard. You ever, you know, hear that analogy? You just need some good phrases. See, you know to choose your what you're hard you ever you know hear that analogy you just like some good phrases see you know choose your hard like if you like going to the gym is hard being out of shape though and just feeling like shit all the time that's hard to choose your heart right going on a mild jog that could be hard if you don't run but it's also hard just sitting there like that's

another gym excuse how about you about going out after a job? Like you leaving a comfortable job to pursue your passions. It must have been hard at first. Yeah. Right? Yeah. But at the same time, it was hard mentally staying there because you knew you weren't getting the most out of everything that you wanted in your life. You thought there was more.

I think it's – first of all, I love that phrase. That's another one i'm gonna use that's great but i think it's it needs to be way more nuanced with politics because with politics it's like your team a or your team b and that's what they tell you you have to be and that is such a ridiculous thing i i had a uh because last year over you know in covid everybody locked in their homes especially here in the tri-state area you know i think we said this but you're out in arizona i was and i had to come home because i was a senior at school and they were kicking everybody out my plan was to stay there and then

they started closing down all of these restaurants and i'm like i gotta eat so i went home for the summer lived at my parents and uh to make money you know, you know, doing the podcast is one thing. And I think that time, you know, you used it wisely. A lot of other people used it wisely to create, not create content, but again, like find what makes you tick. Again, like we were saying before, you know, like figure out who you are. You know, you're only going to get better out of this. Like you're not going to get better sitting here watching Netflix for six months. No, you're only going to get better out of this. Like you're not going to get better sitting here watching Netflix for six months. No, you're not.

But at one point I started doing like online surveys just to make some extra cash, right? You were doing online surveys? It's easy. It's like give your opinion and they'll give you $125 for like two hours of your time, like a two-hour Zoom call. Where do you do that? You know, there's ones like hivemind.com. Like there's all of these different sites like if you

look up online surveys for money they'll hook you up just make accounts so you get like a couple hours you get 125 bucks i mean for you know for the most part you might get rejected be like oh this doesn't suit you try some other survey like it has to like fit like okay between 18 and 25 years old lives in this part of the country uh you have relatives that work in hospice pharmaceuticals whatever like whatever fits the bill for their survey what feedback they're looking to get and almost every single time i set up a call to try and you know apply for one of these um calls was are you a democrat are you republican and i'm always like you know i really don't really mess with politics i never really have like i don't i'm pretty neutral like i agree with some things here i agree with some

things there and they're like but you know if you had to pick one democrat or republican i'm like asteroid well if that's what i'm thinking if i had to choose like i i guess i'd say i'd lean republican and they're just like oh okay republican you, Republican. You know? It's like, did I say something wrong? Like, I told you I don't lean either way. What? You know, it's almost like a wrong thing to say. Side note, why did we do that? Like, why has society done that?

It's because I see that all the time from, like, people I know who are not on this podcast necessarily. But, like, when I'm talking with them, although I've seen it a couple times on this podcast too, where they're like, well, I lean right, like a little. And I'm like, that's fine. I have Mike Spear on this podcast. You can say whatever the fuck you want, but they're afraid to say it. And for whatever reason, we've created this narrative in society, and it makes you have to defend the right rather than the left because the left has kind of the control, the narrative like in media. It's this other narrative that God forbid you lean a little bit to the right. That's like a quiet thing.

You got to be quiet about that. You're a menace. You're a menace. You can't say that. That's fucking insane. That's insane because by the way, still, even today, I'm convinced the majority of people the majority of people are in that middle like 40 to 50 percent right so if it's zero to 100 right to left left to right they're in that say 30 to 70 area and those are all the people who don't have twitter accounts

that's they're kind of off the grid they have Twitter accounts. That's the other problem. They're kind of off the grid. They're not speaking up. That's the other problem. That's because they're humble. So it's kind of a double-edged sword when you think about it. Like, they're good people, but at the same time, like, literally just brought both parties together and actually worked on bringing the country and the people together as one collective unit the way it was intended to be, just imagine where we'd be. It's literally just, like you were saying, side A, side B. You know, it's like the Yankees and the red socks the devils and the islanders the

cowboys and the eagles whatever you want to call it you know like you're on a team and our ambition is to show show how we're the better team right every example that you're listing off right there i agree with and it seems like it should be common sense. The problem is profitability. And it's not like you go right to corporations with shit like that. Corporations are like a part of the whole political picture of course. They pay off everything. political standpoint a happy society is not a profitable society these parties and these forms of thought of which it has become two as the sole choice they exist on the idea that they can create a common enemy in one other side that they can point to and so what they do is they convince all of us as a collective the two of is they convince all of us as a collective, the two of them, they convince all of us that we are different along certain lines so that we can stare at each other, hate each other for those things,

and ignore all the problems that continue to boil down our way from the top, which is them. Yep. And in the process... When I tell you about this stuff every week i'm trying to help you you know you you can listen or not but i'm trying to add years to your life i'm trying to add more energy to your day i'm trying to add more happiness into your vibe that's all just just a good Samaritan friend, neighbor,

whatever the hell you want to call me, looking out for you, trying to give you all those things. And of course, I'm talking about the 8 Sleep Pod Pro cover, which you can use the link in my description, along with the code TRENDIFIER at checkout. That's T-R-E-N-D-I-F-I-E-R to get $100 off to get your own

and change the way you sleep at night. Now, I was doing my own calculations this morning working out a few very complex math problems that had formulas of which i invented that were i mean i'd been working on them and they're very very good they're top of the line and so far in the months that i've been using the Eight Sleep Pod Pro cover, it looks like I've added 11.3 years onto the end of my life already. And I expect that if I keep using it, I might add 22.44 by the end of the year 2024. Which, I mean, 20 years, 22 years, that's a long time. 11 years, where I'm at right now, that's a long time. And I want that for you too.

And it's also about quality of life, because when you add more years, you feel younger as you're going along. So, you know, if you want something like that, use the link in my description, use that code TRENDOFIRE at checkout, get yourself the 8 Sleep Pod Pro cover, get it shipped to you,

stick it on top of your bed, of kings size whatever you use and let the tech do the rest i promise you it will they create an incentive structure that makes sure that money will not flow anywhere outside of those two parties because they have too much of it and therefore they have too much influence and therefore they are too big to fail and shame on us because we continually fall for it and we've been falling for it for 250 years it's not about values at all it's about cha-ching right it's all money driven anything from any level whether you're a politician or you know you're a podcast host but again like if you're staying true to yourself in that sense you know like at some point you want to do this for a living right and what i mean by

that is you know support yourself support a potential family yada yada yada correct yes and you want to do that by doing it your way you know coming in here having a straight shoot conversation with someone no bs no just like all right here's my agenda here's what we're going to talk about a b c d through z right why can i do that i mean you what why can you do that or why it's kind of a trick question but it's not true you can do that to um build what they call a quote-unquote brand no i'm saying why do i have the ability to do that in this day and age yeah do you have an answer to this are you genuinely yeah i do i would just you tell me then it's because i can do what i want i have control of this it's mine i start it's like

any other business i started it i can say what it is now there are constraints in that i have to post on platforms so the platforms have to let me post there you can absolutely draw some lines there but i'm making the call when you are in politics you are now part of a group you are the boss of shit you are you're you're the president oh you don't run anything nope you make some decisions sure but at the end of the day you're held accountable to the party line and by the people who don't like that party line who come from the other side and so when i look at it i see a total difference in my reality versus the reality of a politician and i think that that cycle has only gotten stronger with the more media ability we have to communicate across

society i.e more tools to get at each other directly like on the internet creates more division creates more problems creates more creates more strength for the existing guard in a world like in a world that should be doing the opposite in that people should be getting more individual freedoms and liberties due to growth and resources and improving society we are actually going the other way and having people become more reliant on one form of thought, on whatever it is. And when I talk with people in here who are hard one way or the other, I'm always amazed by how there is some ability to bring out some nuance when we're talking because I make them do it. And I'm like, goddamn, why can't do that like in public too yeah why does it take

like some guy with a podcast having that conversation to get that nuance why does it take that opening up your mind because you kind of have to in a way because i'm forcing you to you're on my turf your back's against the wall yeah i mean i get it from that perspective like either your back's against the wall or you're doing it because you want to spread that word because of you. Right? What do you mean by that? Like, you want to be the voice of reason. You want to be the voice of the voiceless in that sense because you're on camera and you want people to look back and be like, oh, you're the reason all this started.

Right? Like, people go on camera, they go on talk shows they go on podcasts and they say things that people want to hear whether it be left right neutral you know they go on shows to say things that people are going to agree with because they're gonna be like oh that guy's a stand-up guy like he should run for office you know if we're talking politics right like if you're a politician be like this is the guy i want my corner because he's saying all the things that i'm thinking because they either had to because their back again was against the wall or they did

their research and they're like this is what people want to hear and you can never really tell the difference of are these people authentic or did they do their research before they came on knowing that this is what was going to happen very often though for those people those politicians that gravitate towards what really happened is that politician said one two or maybe three things to actually truly identify directly with that person's reality whoever it is that voter every single day and what happens after that is the tragedy which is then because that person identified with their thing so closely whatever it is which is probably bullshit they were doing it off data in all likelihood to try to win a fucking election but because that person said that thing that's so important to me the voter i will now lose my mind

into then agreeing automatically and fighting for every single thing they say because they must be right about it yep that's our problem because now we start to make like politicians are brands that's a huge issue politicians should be congressman number 375 or president number 44 whatever like that should be what a politician is it shouldn't be like this rock star like you know you and i were talking about kurt cobain or other people you imagine right yeah like i i would never have voted kurt cobain for president right i could i would never vote for kanye for president like there's a totally different thing going on how many votes he actually got who yay yeah i don't know but it wasn't many it was more than't many. It was more than – Like 12?

No, it was more than that. He actually got some, but it wasn't – I can look it up. It wasn't that many. No, it was like 14. Like you look at two right now, a Democrat and Republican, AOC and Marjorie Taylor Greene. They're these rock stars, quote-unquote, in their extreme sides because they do a lot of crazy shit that gets social media attention. How much of that do you think is just for the attention and the publicity though? 95% of it. I'd say like 30% of politicians actually get into politics for their beliefs. I think you're being kind. The only reason I say that is because I know a politician who said that to me.

Did he say it with a very convincing look on his face? like like how how much of this is actually like real or how much of this actually is just for the public eye you know going into it just to say like this is great and this is what people want to hear is like most politicians are in this because of themselves the money that's been drawn into it you know the amount of revenue that you could make into it to support yourself and support your family because most of the time and i think the true point he was getting at 30 of it is actual work the other 70 is just sitting on your ass and watching shit go down and then reacting to it they hand these people a bill in congress at 9 a.m in the morning for a three o'clock vote and it's this thick yep if you're listening and not watching i'm holding my fingers pretty wide

apart right here like that's that's the system the system says that people like mitch mcconnell and chuck schumer can exist in a way it's not their fault because the system says they can they've been there for 40 years i think that's ridiculous i think that's crazy they're allowed to do it people vote for them they're allowed to run you know so in a lot of ways there's things that that we inherently have wrong in our quote-unquote system that then good actors and bad actors very often it can be people that are bad or turn bad as a result of the power they get and the access they get they then use that to their advantage and they can you know and and i don't when i see people fighting against this stuff it comes from an extreme usually and so it's very hard to take it seriously like you know you'll see i have a lot of friends who are libertarians i certainly have some libertarian leanings there's things i like about libertarianism but like people

are like abolish taxes get rid of the government i'm like well no that that doesn't work i can say out of the same side of my mouth that a lot of our tax money goes to waste and that governments are inherently very unorganized bad bodies but it's it's like what's the alternative okay abolish the government so is jeff bezos gonna run the world he already does i mean like is that is that better is that someone's gonna have it you know what i mean someone is going to have it so you have there's a level to which people have an unwillingness whatever their belief system is to accept the fact that whatever the result is, it's going to have some bad in it. It's a question of what's the least amount of bad we can get.

You know what, Julian? You're making a ton of great points. I think that your audience would agree with me in the sense that you should run for public office. Well, I don't say never on stuff. We need a voice like you. I will say never on that. We need a voice like you that is bipartisan, no bias involved. I mean you just basically explained what 80 percent of the world already knows.

It is hypocritical and sad. I'll endorse you. I immediately say never. It is both hypocritical and sad. I say that. Who would want to be – Yeah, never. I don't know.

No, less than zero interest because, first of all, both hypocritical and sad i say that who would want to be yeah never i don't know and zero less than zero interest because first of all i wouldn't want to run for more than one term because i believe in term limits that already cuts my legs out from under me based on the current system it shouldn't but based on the current system we have it does and secondly if like let's say i was doing something where i was on one of the shorter term ones so it would be like multiple terms like let's say I was doing something where I was on one of the shorter term ones, so it would be like multiple terms. Like let's say I ran for representative, and I said, okay, it's an eight-year kind of gig to be able to get something done, so I'll have to rerun four times, and then that's it. I set my own standard on it. I'm never going to get elected the second time.

Zero – I won't get elected the first time because I will go on the trail, and minute like first of all i'd have to pick one of the two sides that's that's already a non-starter i had i have no interest in ever doing that secondly i'd have to go on there and i'd have to say things or self-censor from saying things that i may think that don't jive with the full system of whatever x side is supporting or whatever it is they think and it's like well i'm not going to do that so very quickly i mean look at what's happened now with some of these guys so you see right now on the left side you see joe mansion who's a senator from west virginia and on the right side you see liz cheney who's a congresswoman from i think wyoming dick cheney's daughter i was gonna say

they're getting canceled by their own parties because they have the audacity to be like, you know, I think this thing right here is not a great idea. That's insane to me. Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't hear you. We already canceled you. Yeah. It's crazy to me. But that's why I would just never – these people don't think.

They're robots. They don't think. Well, at least you gave me a clear explanation as to why you wouldn't run for office ever. I don't know who would want to be in office. It seems like the most miserable job in the world. You can't do anything right. My godfather was asking me about this. This is back in the end of 2016 like after trump won

and he was asking me what i thought about politics and everything and i thought i'm more involved you know over the last four or five years when i was growing up i was a lot less involved but you know i guess that's how it goes and he goes maybe maybe not necessarily he's like do you want to be a politician? And at the time, I'm like, maybe I would. I don't know. And he's like, see, that's the thing. Like, when I went to college, becoming a politician was what the dumb kids did.

That was like what the kids who fucked up in class but knew how to get pussy did. That's what it was. Really? Yeah. He's like, that's not good's that's what it was really yeah he's like that's that's not good that's what it was and now it feels like you have businessmen going to do it not just trump like all these other people you have people that want to do it and he's like i don't know i just it's weird to me like that's supposed to be what the stupid people do and then it all started to make sense

to me because the stupid people who just knew how to schmooze and sell were the ones that got power, and that's still a lot of the people who are in power, by the way. And it's just – it creates a perfect system where, well, what's someone like that going to respond to? They're responding to the fact that they're just doing it because they want power. They want to be able to sell people and know that they did and then get all the benefits that come with it. And they're not the people that are necessarily the thought leaders or were known as the thought leaders because i think as i would i might have just said this but i want to make sure i get it across the theme he was getting across that more people from outside are doing it now even though that's the case it's still mostly that precedent he was talking about it

and when he said that it all it's a generalization but it all made sense to me how stupid could they really be though to get to that point because this is a cutthroat business we're talking about like and when i say business i mean it's business oriented at least in today's world you can't just be some dipshit with no knowledge yeah i know what you're saying you know yeah this is a very important distinction and i say this and people want to scream at me but like i do call people like chuck schumer and mitch mcconnell political geniuses yeah they are political geniuses they know what they're doing so they're they're that's a great point you make they may be and i'm not saying it's these two guys those are just names i gave but let's go back to the generalization

my godfather gave me a lot of these people may be intellectually stupid like that that might be the case they might not be the brightest bulb but that schmooze ability that is a talent and if they understand like if they understand how to manipulate people it's a bad talent but it's a talent and they're very good at it they're excellent at it you look at anyone who's been tenured in congress or senate they have that ability and whether you whether they like it or not too like you you gotta have the balls to say like all right these people think i'm a bum let's go down that route you know like because some people might be prideful in that sense and be like that's not how i want to be portrayed you know like some politicians are all about image right 95 now i'd say 98 of politicians are all about image you know

and some people like a mitch mcconnell might not think like oh man everybody just thinks i'm like like you think he's a political genius but in the wide scheme of things for someone just like again just strolling by like me seeing you know snl skits about him i'm like oh these guys just think he's a bum right because they have a different point of view that's how he's gone about his business though like he's like all right people think i'm a bum like i'm gonna i'm gonna kind of use that in a sense right he's not a bum to the people who are all about his point of view same thing from the other side you know the right will attack nancy pelosi all the time i think that's very fair to do it a lot of the left

not all of them now because there's a lot of there's a lot of people who are very extreme progressives who don't like her but all in all the left will support her more often than not yeah you know so it's it is all it's it's a concept of who you're appealing to and now more than ever when you become a politician since you were going into one of the two parties you're gonna have half that hate you and half that hopefully love you that's a bad start it's a bit because the minute like do you ever go to any of these congressmen and senators websites now only when i have to we have this real estate show on our network where you always invites on people running for governor running for senate running for um uh you know

whatever you know and they just come in you you know, in their suits and ties, their dresses, just like, hi, nice to meet you. Margaret Sanderson, you know, so fake. Right. And you go to their website because you have to promote it. And it's just like, hmm, where's where's the real juice? You know, like, where's the stuff that makes you you like, why should I be voting for you? It says all the same things on their sites yeah all the same talking points and if you read through people want to hear you have to go to their page where it says stances and when i read through them i can figure out that they're a democrat or republican but i bring it up because

most of these sites they don't list you have have to go find it. It doesn't say Democrat or Republican. They try – like they are now in the smallest ways that are meaningless. No one really gives a shit about your personal website these days. I feel like you have to have a clear stance though. Like if you're running, people would know regardless if they can find it on your website. But I'm saying like they try to run from it to take away the if someone's coming on i think this is what it is if someone's coming onto their page for whatever reason and it's not just me who's curious like going onto their page to look through their thing they don't want the person immediately being

like oh that's a republican or oh that's a democrat they want the person being like oh look at this nice guy with his family and everything oh he looks cool oh there's one stance that sounds okay all right cool i'm in before they found out which side they're on and it's like in a way i respect that because you're not playing directly to the party but in another way i know that that's not at all how it works and everywhere outside of there there's going to be a d or an r next to your name and that's how people are going to judge you it's interesting. Huh. I really try to stay out of politics the best I can because, again, like I never really truly know what's going to happen.

Like, you know, just talking about it here, you never know. Not that you care. Like you obviously don't care, and that's why you have the following you do. That's why I wanted to come on, you know? Like, respect the hell out of you and what you're doing. You know, like, you don't give two Fs about what anybody thinks. But, you know, like, some people might look at this conversation and be like, oh, you were talking about 50-50. You know, someone might look at this and be like,

oh, there's half your audience gone because they didn't like what you were talking about. And that goes back to, you know, doing this because you want to grow your brand or you're doing this because you are actually passionate about it you know like you want to do this because this what this is what makes you you you're not doing this for money you're not doing this for quote unquote fame you know like if you're doing it for those reasons like you're never going to make it because you're not doing this well you have to support yourself you do it and that's going to grow over time yes because people see that you're not leading with the money exactly leading with that you have to if i could do it where i supported myself and didn't have any fame that would be the best i understand that in

something like this you have attention so whether or not people will call it fame i prefer they they wouldn't if if and when that happened but yeah i mean there's the the root element to doing it is because i like doing it and it's the thing i want to do you know and and i think that's that's probably what you're getting out there like you have to lead with that oh 100 like do you do this because like obviously one day you want to get to a point where you can make enough money to do this full-time and be like, this is what I do. And I can go about my way to do it. I already do it full-time, but yes. Correct.

I want to be able to have it very sustaining. I've self-funded this, so yes. I understand what you mean. Would you want to be like the Joe Rogan experience where the whole world knows who you are? Are you good enough monetizing it to the sense i'm comfortable i can live my own life because like you said you're that guy who you know lived you know behind the curtain that's all you ever wanted right yeah that part that part you want to do this because you love it and at the same time make enough money to where you're fine and comfortable as opposed to being famous yeah i i do want to be the best of what i do though that That just would be with anything. And that would come with being the most – the number one podcast in the world. Yes, it would, which you have to accept the other things that come with that.

I mean I'm a fucking long way off that. But if you're asking me what my vision is, yeah, when I put my heart into something, I want to be the best at it. Right. put my heart into something i want to be the best at it right i mean you look like the comments and you know the looks and the opinions of others will come with it but sponsorships will also come with it endorsements will also come with it and all you really have to do all you really have to care about is doing things on your terms the way you want to because it makes you happy it fulfills you and at the same time you get to spend time with your loved ones supporting them through something that you built and created and nurtured over a long period of time that's it that's the dream and not everybody can get there

you know 10 years from now you could i mean obviously you grow you know you'd learn some things along the way but like you might not be the number one podcast in the world you know it's a far goal like it should be everybody's goal that gets into this like you you should want to be the number one guy the top guy at the table the head of the table per se right but it might not happen but you have to go in with the mindset of like i can't do this or like i i will never feel validated in a sense until i get to that ultimate goal and prove to everybody why i started this because there's a lot of people that get into this and they're like you know they're surrounded by people that say like you're not gonna be any good at this like why do you have a show like you

have no platform you don't you you're not a public figure you're not famous you know every every platform has to start with a reason it has to start without a platform like your vision has to be your own vision like what is that vision has to start without a platform. Like your vision has to be your own vision. Like what is that vision? Like you starting Trendifier. Like what was your vision for this show? And what did you want to bring to a specific audience? I got you.

Actually, it's not an easy answer. Well, let's unpack it then. I know it in my head. But it's really complex. I hate complexity. And it's really complex. Well, let's unpack it then. I've said this plenty of times on the show. This is the easiest high-level answer. I wanted to just talk with people and make people listening feel like we were talking about some of the issues that they cared about and like they were sitting at the table with us. And that was really it. Like if you're talking vision, other than the competitive juices of me saying, yeah, if I get into something, I want to be the best at it. Yes, that's a part of the vision per se. But like before you get to a dick measuring contest, you have to have the best at it yes that's a part of the vision per se but like before you get to a dick measuring contest you have to it you have to have the thing that you have to have the products you have to have the gutsies you have to have whatever it is so what is it and that's where

the vision needs to be and so for me that's it was a lot more than that but it was colored around what i just said there about conversation different people different issues everyone's interested they're sitting at the table but they don't have to say anything as a listener you know they feel like they could that's that's what it was yeah i i hope that answers the question because it's i don't know to this day it's like a weird it's a weird thing to explain because it's also so it's such an out there medium to be like it's a podcast but like a long-form conversation podcast with whoever the hell like it's a weird medium no it's a great answer and i had listened to the podcast you did kind of explaining why you started it. Just sitting there 55 minutes staring at a camera, not an easy thing to do.

But hypothetically, just to put you on the spot, that is a great reason to start this. You had a vision. You had a passion for it. Five years down the line, if you're making the exact same money you are right now and viewership isn't going up, things aren't trending in the way you thought they were in a trend, would you still do it? That would mean that I wasn't good and the market spoke. Straight up. There's no – look.

The beauty of doing a creative thing versus a sport is that like with a sport, there's a score. And there's score – I'm going to'm gonna make this i'm gonna explain this there's a score in creativity you have to get viewers to have monetization and whatever but in major sports let's say like in america for example there's four major leagues that you can make a lot of money in there's a very limited number of seats at the table of people who can actually get there and do that. And when they do, there's 30 teams, give or take 30, 32, whatever it is. At the end of the year, there are all-stars and there is a winner of the league. That's it as a team. That's it. Like that's your measurement of success so if

you're a franchise in one of these leagues for 50 years and you don't have a title you're not successful you may have made some money for the business but damn well didn't make as much as the as the ones that won titles so you're not that successful with creativity and that's such a broad word that's why i use it With things where you're just making something. It's not like there's four quarters or two halves and at the end there's a score. It's like you're making something and finding a way to take from the rock what wasn't there such that people who are going to find it are going to get value from enjoying it. And so once they do, then they dedicate some time towards it and now it's a time battle so if i were in the nba i'm lebron james as a friend when i'm not playing in the game and a friend of mine playing for another team let's say kevin durant is playing

i can root for him but i can't really root for him. Because like, there's one title to win. Right. Everyone is in my way to do that. In this league. In this little league right here. So I can root,

like as a friend, you know, you can go to Chris Paul's game after he's eliminated, as a friend, and root for him in a way. But it's like, you can't, there's competition there.

When you're in something creative i can root for another podcast that does the same exact type of thing i do it's going to be different because it's a different host different thoughts different whatever but i can root for that because the only thing we're competing on is people's time if they give me three hours someone else two hours some guy who makes a video about cars another hour a week some dude over here who has a netflix show that he made 12 hours that week great great as long as i'm getting a sliver of the time and earning that great i will then root for everyone else so it's different in that way you don't have to be this cutthroat competitor like i've never had a another podcaster in here and i think i've had like maybe like five podcasters in here who i'm not then rooting for them or like hey let's get your audience as big as we can the fuck does it mean to me if we were going directly against each other

in a league championships on the line unfortunately different story but we're not and that's the beauty of doing this right another complex answer but that's kind of how i think your biggest competitor not only in what you do but in life is yourself first and foremost because it's up to you to again not compete against those guys but to be good enough to where you are the number one guy compared to everybody else right because at the end of the day you'd be like oh i didn't do this right uh they didn't understand that take that's why they listen to him more than me him her i don't want to differentiate there another thing you can get in trouble about these days sorry um but it's on you like if you put everything on you like some people say oh you can't be too hard on yourself but at the same time if you're not blaming yourself in that sense with everything that goes wrong in your life

regardless if it was some shitty freak accident that happened like you were there at that specific time for a reason right like maybe you got into a car crash that day you know because like that exact time like those exact coordinates shaped up because maybe you slept in for five extra minutes maybe you were running late. You know, you took a longer shower than you usually do. Weird things leading up to that. Like, if you take responsibility for all of that stuff and you look at yourself in the mirror and say, like, I didn't compete to the best of my ability against myself today.

I wasn't a better version of myself today. That's where it all stems from. You can't look at it and be like, I have to be better than him. Because now you're creating this toxic thought process in your head that you've got to be better than someone else. Because you are your own version of you, right? You can't compare yourself to Dwayne The Rock Johnson. I'm never going to be a 6'6", 300-pound Samoan badass. It's just never going to happen.

I could go to the gym every single day i could take all the steroids in the world that i want i'm never gonna be that right that's not who i was built to be i think you just nailed it i think i think you just that that explanation was perfect and i'll even build on top with another quick example kobe could sit there and study michael's tape because kobe was six foot six similar weight similar profile not quite as athletic as michael but similar type style of play and the end result is ball in hoop yep so i study this move ball in hoop when you are doing things that involve communication which is any and all content the number of variables that go into that don't just result in ball and hoop it's how does the ball go in the hoop like they don't care in basketball it's like ball goes in hoop it's a

two or a three you know what it is whether it hit the front rim and went in hit the back rim and went in used the backboard was a pure swish came in at a lower angle higher angle it's the same score in communication all of those other variables matter so point being if you try to be someone else you're done you're done like and i know people will point to people who have quote-unquote made it kind of doing that. I'll even come back at them and say even if that was their intention, they unintentionally did other things differently that made them somehow different from whoever it is they tried to copy. I'm not saying I love that or I'm happy that they made it. I don't root against people, do you? But there is a thing there versus where there is a pure black and white score of this is what it is. That said, yeah, you have to get numbers and that you do i think people would be in a different vibe choosing to listen to you versus listening to me i think that people very obvious one people are

going to be in a different vibe if they choose to listen to my show or go watch a reality tv show they're in a different mood could be be a Tuesday at 9 a.m. Could be a Thursday at 4. It's all relative. It's not this pure there's 82 games or 17 games or 162 games and you win or you lose every single one. Boop, boop, boop, boop, boop. Right. And you're not going to in that regard when when it comes to fanbases and stuff,

you can't pull everybody in, right? You being true to yourself, you're gonna build a loyal fanbase that listens to you and likes your takes, likes your opinions, likes the way you describe things, like you do so eloquently, you know? Thank you. And that grows over time, you know? And that's because you figure it out,

like I have to be the truest version of me and not think about what other people are doing, Thank you. But it's up to you and how you use your mind and your creativity to say, this is what's going to make me different, and I'm going to grow a loyal fan base based on that. Because everybody's different, but you resonate with certain people, right? Absolutely. I feel like you resonate with – I feel like a lot of people resonate with Joee rogan and the some of the conversations maybe even just some of their guests you know what what they say it inspires you know it's a lot of people here in the east coast we've talked about this before almost lost my breath there um barstool sports has been a huge influence over people right there's a lot of professionals out there espn fox sports nbc that look at barstool sports and be like this can't be the new norm this is so raunchy this is so unprofessional i can't stand it

i can't stand it maybe that's just the higher ups because they have a lot of you know again goes back to money you know like they have to and they have to stay true to what the corporate levels want because there's a lot of money involved. And if you act unprofessional, that's not going to go over well with the higher executives. But Barstool, since day one, Dave Portnoy has stayed true to himself, what he wanted that to be. And maybe it's evolved over time for sure, but he's always stayed true to the identity. And nobody could ever replicate that you know it took him since 2004 you know going from house to house in massachusetts i don't know the exact town he grew up in but

you know just going from house to house just sending people newspapers based on his thoughts and opinions on certain games red sox patriots celtics you, Celtics, you know, Bruins, whatever, you know, what he was talking about, you know. But he grew a loyal fan base that's grown nationally. They have their own bowl game coming up in Arizona, in Tucson. It's nuts. And that all started because he wasn't going to take shit from anybody. He knew who he was and he knew how to, again, fill his cup. He knew how to not take no for an answer too yeah he knew

how to turn a no into a yes why why is this a no and how can we turn it into a yes i mean he will fuck you into a yes that like that is what he did like you will say you can't do that and he'll say oh i will and he'll do it over and over and there's just some guys now who get and i think it's like our whole society with like cisgender white males like just coming after it and shit but like people just want to rip portnoy and rogan left and right and i'll defend those guys to death it's like what i think it's just people are obsessed with ripping success. I don't give a shit what their background is. If someone has a story where they built and they did shit that other people wouldn't do over and over and over again, and they're not hateful people. They're good people.

They are. Like, why do you have to hate on that? You know, and like you should encourage if there's one thing that like portnoy doesn't encourage but it's also like a part of his shtick he's a comedian like at all times he's a character is that he doesn't encourage per se outwardly people to disagree with him that said he it's a part of like how he plays off of forcing people to so they come back at him and then he has fun with it it's like kind of like an act with rogan he openly wants you to do it and it's not like even though he's a comedian by trade like on the podcast totally different he he wants to be able

to have the talk and like disagree eloquently people don't like that because it's not profitable it's not profitable to the powers that be that we were talking about earlier in society it's not profitable to them because if you get people it doesn't make quick revenue like it took rogan again he had a platform right he was a comedian yeah ufc commentator yeah still took him a long time to build the joe rogan experience into what it is now i'm not even talking about his side but that's 100 right i'm talking about the other side of why the people that hate on him in society do they do because guys like him represent the ability for someone to think for themselves he has people of all different backgrounds on there he has a lot of nuanced beliefs i think that they have definitely pushed him conservative through

the actions that they've taken on him throughout covid. I also don't have a problem with that. If I were in his position, that might happen to me too, because they've basically told him over and over again, every single thing he says is bullshit. He platforms all these people who aren't platformable, which is such bullshit. And they cherry pick his beliefs and then they mischaracterize him. And it's so sad to see because if anything, he's been the guy who wants everyone to talk. I don't know – like that's – for anyone who does a podcast talking with other people, I don't care if it's a comedy podcast. I don't care what it is. That's the gold standard. I'm not saying you're going to be like that and have that podcast medium or style i'm just saying like if you want to figure out how to get people talking or just make it natural that's it that's that's the one and there's a lot of other great examples now i

study them all but like started with him and yet people want to hate on him and and i think i think it's a dangerous thing that we do in society and now they they make teams around it they they turn everything political with it and it's just it's so sad to me and it shouldn't be that way i mean nobody knows everything either no like you know half of it is just being curious like he asks questions that people be like oh man that's such a dumb thing to ask like how do you not know that like nobody knows everything you know that that's one of the biggest keys in life i think is to be a curious human being seek knowledge on a daily basis and he does that through his podcast like he's a very intelligent guy don't get me wrong um you know it takes a lot

of work to be a good comedian oh yeah man like i wouldn't even consider him one of the greats but he's good enough to where he built a public status doing it like word got around like this guy's a funny dude based on his shtick whatever you know his end game was marijuana you know talking about edibles a lot whatever it is you know you could talk the same about you know his end game was marijuana you know talking about edibles a lot whatever it is you know you could talk the same about you know bill burr like a lot of people would be like the guy's a dumbass like his takes are just weird but he's good at giving them hysterical hysterical right one of the best ever my favorite comedian oh no doubt he's one of the best ever like it's a ridiculous notion for people to be like oh how did, like, nobody knows everything.

You know, like, is the president supposed to have all the answers? Joe Rogan certainly doesn't have all the answers. Portnoy definitely doesn't have all the answers. You know, you learn on a daily basis. And if you are willing to seek knowledge, which everybody should on a daily basis, that's how you grow your brain, that's how you grow your heart,

that's how you grow everything, you know? People are looking for gods inside of other people people and they're not going to find it thor ain't real yeah they're not tony stark ain't real even even that though tony stark superhero can do shit that's not real still didn't know everything was still human you know what i mean and and yet we want we have these expectations that someone has all the answers. And that's how we divide it on everything. And that, but I love how you talk with everyone, and it makes me have such an open mind. And I'm like, first of all, thank you to all the people ahead of me who have done that. Rogan's one of them. You look at even actors like Russell Brand

who went into podcasting. He's phenomenal. Genius. And he's like, he is such a, I don't give a fuck, let's just talk about it. Guys like that are incredible. And then even like comedian pure comedian types like an andrew schultz who's hilarious he still talks with real people they

still talk about some real things it's all from a comedy bend but like god damn i appreciate the hell out of that so like to be mentioned in a compliment like that i look at the guys who have been doing it and say like yo that, that's the responsibility. For me and anyone else coming into this trying to build a cute little audience and get there, that better be something that people come with because if you are not – like if you're a Democrat or a Republican and like that's a part of your job and your personal brand and you have to create a show around that okay all power to you i still hope you listen to both sides you probably won't but whatever if you're anyone else though and politics is not your career and you're talking about societal issues you better be able to have plenty of things that every listener can disagree with on there if you're not guess what you do have a political show and you have a problem it's almost i don't want to say better to have people disagree with you but like it starts the conversation as opposed to just being like oh yeah i totally agree with

that man yeah and don't be wrong like it's nice to find common ground on stuff i love doing that i love doing that in the middle of a disagreement with things because it can reset some places of like oh we don't come from a totally different place But it's nice to be able to pull out the implied differences. People are civil, you know? And like, I don't know about you. I would imagine you have this on steroids because you record all the time. I mean, you've done 400 and some episodes. But I have takes that are cold a week later.

All the time. All the time. And I remind people that. I'm like, like yo we once defended andrew cuomo on this podcast for like a half hour right like we're gonna say things that are wrong i think now society expects that every single thing someone says has to end up being right and i'd like to be one of the people and i think there's plenty of people before me doing it but i'd like to be a help in shifting that paradigm of like no no you're gonna hear shit that's absolutely dumb and we're not gonna try

to do it but it's gonna age that way and we'll tell you when it does to the best of our ability and i think that's what makes um to go back to you know the whole argument of barstool sports versus everybody else in the media game like they have publicly effed up many times you know you know when it comes to you know throwing shit at the wall ideas left and right you know eight things out of ten work then there's those two things we're like up sorry we fucked up that's on us yeah and they ask their fan base like how can we improve we're like espn and fox sports they are so straight arrowed to where like they can't screw up they can't say the wrong thing or else they lose a ton of money or barstool is you know true to you know say like okay we're gonna try

this and we're not gonna give a fuck what anybody thinks but if it doesn't draw the numbers like we gotta be honest with ourselves we we can't do that and they're open about it do you think there's like a war on words define Define war on words. Just like it's not right to like drop an F-bomb on national television. No, no, I wasn't even going that. So that shit, that ship sailed. I'm talking about intention behind words and what people say and picking out every little thing they do to try to determine exactly how they're hateful or how they're wrong. Right. I i mean it differs

from people whether you want to look at politics or even comedians you know everything everything bill burr says can be offensive to a lot of people but he's joking he's a comedian like you you have to recognize like oh that that's really wrong and bad that he said that but like that's his schtick that's what he wrote down that's what he came up like that's his niche he's trying to be funny he's not taking himself seriously but some people look at that and say you're you know not indirectly of what he's saying like you are anti-woman you're racist you're this you're that you know you're a nazi for saying that you know like there's so many people that take everything so seriously like same with barstool sports there's a ton of

stuff they say that might be wildly inappropriate or inaccurate and they might just be trying to come off as comedic like comedic like a joke as opposed to actually like oh my god you you believe like that's your personality like that's such a bad thing to say like there's a difference between and and some people come off and you know okay they're joking like that that's clear as day some people don't come across that way when they're trying to though right there's a lot of people out there that think they're of the comedic stature and you know like humor is their thing but it really isn't like you did not come across as someone who thought of that jokingly like that came off as derogatory that came off as very rude and offensive that's that's also hard to pin pinpoint though you are right though I'm huge on intent and that's exactly

what you're getting at yeah but I also know look I'm gonna give takes on stuff when I see it that doesn't mean that I don't also know that sometimes I'm gonna be wrong and not know I am about what someone really thought about something because maybe they're just really bad at delivering it. Right. Now, look, are there some things that are cut and dry? Yes, there are. I don't need to give examples, but there are certain things you see like, yep, that person is not too great. other things where we run with a narrative on something someone says in public that can even at first glance look like bad intent and then you really think about it and you're like no i think

it was just a bad take or no i think they were trying something and it just didn't work and like comedians is that situation on steroids because their literal job is shock and awe their job is to offend and make light of when does that stop you know like dave chappelle if dave chappelle were coming up today i don't think he would ever happen that's sad to say dave chappelle loves all people he's a great guy he knows how to joke and have fun i did you see a special a couple years ago was it i i watched one the other week about yeah he had like three different stages talking about oj simpson and he just like randomly walked in because he there's like seven different specials he had on netflix yeah but the recent one i don't think that was the same one but the one he did came out like end of summer

2019 he won i think he won some emmys for that maybe it wasn't emmys he won some shit for that and it has like a hundred percent rating on rotten tomatoes but when it started the way rotten tomatoes opened up the rating was they only allowed critics to rate it so they picked five or ten critics who were all i'm gonna guess they were just leftists and they all rated it like zero and people were like what the fuck this is funny i should have ever seen they rated it that because the things he was saying in there were meant to shock and offend he talked about like the alphabet people referring to like the lgbtq community everything. And it was all in good jest. But people have to take every single thing so seriously.

It's dangerous to even say something that might be measured as funny because someone won't find it funny. And he told a story after that documentary came out. There was a special where he was being interviewed about the documentary that was released on Netflix as well. And so Dave Chappelle sat there and told a story about going to play at some – or he was going to do stand-up at some comedy outlet in San Francisco. And when he looked out – it's a small type place. He looked out in the front of the audience and he saw a transgender woman there and he's about to do a stand-up special that includes talking about the alphabet people and making light of like transgender people and things like that and he was like oh man god damn it i can't do this goddamn thing now fuck and then he stopped and he thought to himself if i can't do this joke in front of her then i shouldn't be doing this joke said i'm gonna't do this joke in front of her, then I shouldn't be doing this joke.

So I'm going to go do the joke. And she was laughing her ass off and talk with him about it afterwards because she has the ability to laugh at herself a little bit too. Even if it's not the full truth or whatever, it's ridiculous over the top. It's a part of life, laughing at yourself. And I think we're kind of getting to a point where part of this quote-unquote war on words is that people don't have an ability to laugh at themselves anymore, and that's very scary to me. I mean I – not to get too deep into cancel culture stuff and whatnot, but like for example, when all that stuff happened last year, pandemic-related, BLM-related, everything that went down you know like tv will tell you one thing like it's offensive to all people when other people are like that doesn't offend me at all you know just to put it in broad terms not to get too deep into what you know people would interpret from

that you know because like some people will look at that and be like black lives matter only black Black Lives Matter, only Black Lives Matter. That was the quote-unquote agenda, right? I have a ton of African-American friends who are like, this is the stupidest thing ever. Like this is almost embarrassing. The whole BLM movement. Yeah, I have plenty of friends. I have friends on both. I have black friends who were all about it and black friends who weren't. It's a spectrum like anything else.

You're allowed to have an opinion. And things – by the way, things can get bastardized too. That definitely got bastardized to me. I think the founders of that thing bastardized it. You can say one – I don't think anyone would say like, oh, that's not a perfectly fine thing to say i think when they look at like the organization that came with it and what the organization ended up doing that was far beyond any of that like just black lives matter that's where people had an issue and so i understand what you're saying because it's like you're forced to pick a pick a speed it started as a

belief it became a political stance like what started over here they just grabbed and like all right thanks for helping us out we're gonna turn it into this and what this was was just a complete lie notice how it's gone not gone but like it's not quieted down yeah it's not as relevant as it was a year ago i started seeing a lot of white people taking over black lives matter and that's where i started going you probably shouldn't be doing this man yeah that's i kind of had an issue with that and i'm not like a i'm not a purely tribal no no no only you can do this because you think this or whatever but i'm all or you are you have x is your identity whatever the organization is but there's an element of hey it

should be pretty honest about the lived experience you know if i see from constantly seeing a bunch of white guys talking about black lives matter eventually i'm gonna be like well wait a goddamn second are you kind of stealing this like there's a part of me that thinks that and so i and why is that because it's not your lived experience you just you know what i mean like you're you're a white guy or a white chick i appreciate the sympathy if that's where it's coming from i think some people they hijack it for attention but i know there's a lot of people who are sympathetic i appreciate that but at what point do you start now setting the lines like at what point are you the loudest people in social media saying this is

what we think and this is how we feel because blm and you're not black why Why are you? Hold on a second. Like, if, if D-Ray McKesson wants to come out here and say, okay, if he's, if he's at the forefront of it, which I haven't even heard his name in a long time. Okay.

That's a part. You don't have to agree with him, but it's his lived experience. He's a black man. You know, I'm not saying you can't have any white people in it. That's not what I'm getting at. I'm saying it felt like it just turned completely to minus a handful of people. It was always white people've lived it like you were saying that's that's totally different ball game like you have every right but if you're just sitting there and again i think a lot of it when it came to whether it be white people or anybody in general it was for

attention to say oh what a great guy like what you're doing is such a great stance you know there was that one day last year where um they had like the blackout on instagram i don't know and you there was that one day last year where um they had like the blackout on instagram i don't know if you like that one day everybody just posted a black blank square yeah and it was just i posted one yeah all right did you give like an explanation or you just do like hashtag whatever nope i i don't know i i think about that sometimes like if i would have today truthfully and it's an issue i cared a lot about and was looking into. But at the time I literally posted that, I put, I don't want to say zero thought into it, but very close to zero thought into it.

Right. And then long after the fact, when a whole bunch of other shit happened, I was like, well, isn't that a part of the problem? I never took it that. Like, it is what it is. I own it. It's fine. But, like, it, isn't that a part of the problem? I never took it that. It is what it is. I own it. It's fine. But it felt very hollow to me.

I'm like that feel – and I'm not even just speaking for myself there. I'll speak for other people for them who don't want me to speak for them. It felt very signally and hollow. hollow and if i were a black person who was very very into very very about the issue at hand which especially at the time right then duh i probably wouldn't feel too great about that happening not to say like hey i don't appreciate some of the want of support here but like what's the action i think terrence jones said it when we were talking about this maybe like i think it was the first podcast of the two that he and i did which was like one of the first podcasts in here he was like he was like he had a he said it way better than i will but he's like

action over talk or he said it better than that, but you know what I mean. He was more thinking, what's going to come of this? Nothing. And he was right. I don't think anything really came of that. I have a black square on my profile. I don't really know what it did. It was more of a thing like, oh, shit, yeah, today's that day.

Boom. What did that do? Twelve people could have done it. Twelve billion people could have done it 12 billion people could have done it yeah i what it spoke the same message i'm trying to look for the one because i wasn't going to do initially just get again like i'm not involved in politics and i feel like i don't deserve to have a take on it because some like 50 of the people are going to disagree with it and then it's just going to be a big thing like what what's the point you know and i don't have enough knowledge to even give like an extensive take on anything that's going on because again i think

empathy over sympathy 100 you could be sympathetic and be like oh man that's wrong but like you're just you know like both of us i think it's safe to say privileged white kids right yeah according to society's standards no doubt so i wasn't so i wasn't going to post one because again like i just i had to stay out of it but um i'm going to look for it here it was i think it was cnn and for anybody that watches the news and knows the new cnn is a left you know um organization network whatever you want to call it and um one of the reporters omar jimenez was doing a take in the whole process of that i think he was in minnesota when everything was getting burned down literally just doing his segment got arrested got arrested on the spot

just because and i remember watching that live thinking like like it doesn't take a genius to think like this is wrong yeah yeah i remember this is not cool like say what you want about that whole movement and the way the media portrayed it because there was definitely a lot of that involved you know just blinding the people and saying this is what it's about as opposed to this is what it's actually about but seeing that on tv i'm like that is so like that he wasn't doing anything he had his media badge they showed him his media badge and they still nobody listened it wasn't set up you know that because there were clear it was cnn and cops which they don't they certainly don't match on where their stances are on certain things as it relates to law enforcement at a broad level.

But it was so bad that your first thought is like, oh my god, is this staged? And it wasn't. It wasn't. But that's how mind-numbingly dumb that was. These – like those cops, whoever they were, those individual cops right there, I lost brain cells watching what they did. To say nothing of it was a disgrace. They're arresting a media man on camera. Just like – you don't do that, period.

But like the lack of self-awareness you must have in that moment to be doing that stuns me and it says here in an article that they wrote saying the camera doesn't show that a few blocks away a white journalist also reporting for cnn was treated and greeted by police with consummate politeness and see there's give or take like again not on camera who knows look we can say like some of this stuff is anecdotal and it is and some of it's certainly used as a way to further the divide no doubt but yeah you see shit like that happens and it just makes you go what are you doing you are literally making it worse in the simplest of ways that should be like not making it worse like okay you have some inherent biases don't act on them like if you biases. Don't act on them. Like, if you have them, don't act on them.

I don't like that you have them, but don't act on them. It's not hard. Just fucking walk the other way. I just, sometimes the lack of, the lack of common sense on people is just like, oh my God. I remember watching some of that. Cause again, like not a political guy, but how could you not watch what was going down last summer with everything? Everyone watched it. At least a little bit.

Yeah, I'll even push back on you. I don't think anyone can say, including you, these days, and I understand what you mean. But when you say like not political person, in the past, what that would have meant was i'm completely not informed on everything someone like you talking with everyone you do you are informed on stuff what i would amend it to say and you can disagree with me but what i would amend it to say is you are more someone that beats to the drum of i don't necessarily feel passion that my opinions are strong one way or another or that i need to win but to say that like you're not somewhat informed i think is wrong you talk with way too many people you're a guy who does know what's

going on to an extent like maybe you don't look into it like i don't know 100 of the facts though nor do i so like i don't want to say something and be like that's literally like it's one thing to be like I don't agree with your opinion. It's another thing to be like, okay, you don't have your facts straight. I respect that. I know what you mean. And I know that I wouldn't have – I just want to clarify that. Oh, 100%.

I know what's going on for sure. Yes. I hear a lot more credibility in understanding some of the things yeah then you are giving yourself credit for and so i want to make that clear while we're having this conversation because there is a level to which you you do you have done some homework on some of these things oh yeah i appreciate the fact that you're not and again nor should you looking at it like i've done all my homework i know exactly how it is right no one knows exactly how everything is right not one person not even the fucking president presidents whoever like none of them so it's it's good to have the old the only things i can touch on regarding that stuff that happened and what's been happening over the past 15 months or so is the obvious

stuff that nobody can really disagree with like i was saying like watching people out in the streets in washington you know people with phones recording the police and pushing the police intentionally provoking the police so that they'd hit back and then they'd have it on camera and then they could show people yes like you see that on camera on the news and you got to think like you're just hurting yourself you're hurting your what your stance is, right? People who are in the BLM movement per se, whether it be the political stance or not. You're hurting yourselfing with that's what i'm saying i don't think i think of it that way it's a stupid move on your part because everybody's seen it on national television like you you're making the first move you're intentionally trying to set yourself up so that people will see see see all police are bad but that's not the case with anything that gets attention in the public square

it's always going to be the most extreme because it's the most visceral it creates the most reaction of agreement or intensive disagreement right it's no different when a group of people get together in the actual literal public square regardless of what organization they are you know like do i think that 77 million or 74 whatever it was trump voters are represented by the dumb asses who went into the capitol including people who broke down windows and broke into places and shit in there no i do not you know i i think that those people you know to me like you go in the capitol shot. That's just kind of what it is. That's a whole nother thing why that didn't happen. And they didn't have a lot of protection there as far as like, I know if that were a BLM protest, there would have been an armed fucking guard there, which is ridiculous to me. what happened you look at it and you you should be able to say not the brightest bulbs who went in there not the best this country has to offer not the best this country has to offer of the people who voted one way despite the fact that i thought trump was the dumbest person in america

for having that rally that day like that's why i don't have really sympathy for him on the matter at all because he planned that rally for three weeks he knew what kind of people were going to show up he knew that you know this could definitely be something where situations were going to be created i'm not saying he knew that riot was going to happen but things were going to happen that could be used against him and he still did it because he can't help himself yeah and so like deal with it bro like you deal with the fucking fallout but what i'm not going to do is then say those people represent a dangerous whatever in this country that exists in half the country half the country voted for this guy roughly so they're like that that is fucking insane

it is insane but people do that and people do the same thing by the way people do the same thing, by the way. People do the same thing, making assumptions that all people who support coming back against like racial injustice or something like that must be BLM supporters and all about what they do. No, they're not. Even if they virtue signal for it, like, okay, whatever, hashtag this. No, they're not. They're not the ones out there in the street doing what you talked about yeah pushing into police right most people don't do that you know so i'm not going to cherry pick and be like they're all like that this is ridiculous you know and it's like nuance man like i say it over and over again but i'm begging for it and i still see

less and less of it every day you see though that you know talking about you know people pushing intentionally provoking police officers like that is a prime example of this isn't what it's been said to be this isn't what it's all cracked up to be and that is a clear example that i thought like okay i'm not going to invest my time watching this stuff because it's all hoopla you know like it's it's all for show like what if a police officer did strike back in that moment what would you say definitely wrong but at the same time he was provoked you wouldn't see the provocation they'd edit that out you think they'd edit it out yeah but people watching it live would have seen it and there's a lot of people who watch that

stuff on an hourly basis especially last year what's the there's a quote someone in history said and i can't think of what the exact quote was but i know the idea that sucks but it's like like there'd be people on twitter who'd probably be recording it in the moment it'd be like see see they edited out and they'd have the proof it has to do the quote i'm thinking of has to do with gaslighting you gaslight people into not saying anything who saw it and then you gaslight the people who hear about it to not believe the people who were there who have the audacity to say what they really believe happened so basically first one to punch wins yeah it's just how it is. The narrative is going to be the narrative.

And there's times where it's right. There's times where it's wrong. We've talked about race a ton on this podcast. I will never shy away from talking about it because we do have issues. I don't believe our issues are like we're living in 1833 like some people would have you believe these days. That doesn't mean I'm then going to be what a lot of people on the other side is, which there's no issue. Shut the fuck up and deal with it. Well, no, that's patently false.

I'll beat you on that argument all day. Again, though, I'm going to beat you on the original argument from the other side, which is 1833. No, that's patently false too. And I can't – I hope more people have the conversation like that, and I have it with people of all backgrounds. I have it with black people who are in here. I have it with white people who are in here. I've had it with other people who aren't white or black who have been in here. I don't shy away from it my hope is that whatever the nuance of beliefs is there

hearing people talk about that can put it in a lens to address issues as a proactive measure rather than react to issues as a hysterical measure There's a big difference there. And I wish more people would bridge that divide. And I probably haven't always done the best job of bridging the divide. I'm doing the best I can. It's hard. It's very hard. Again, you get your thoughts across splendidly. Just listening here, talking to you.

But at the same time, it's still hard. It's still hard if you had someone, whether left politician, right politician, whatever, and you're trying to get these thoughts across, and it doesn't come out the way you thought it would. Or maybe it came off perfectly, and it just didn't enter their earhole the way you thought it would, and they turn it into something else. It's hard to get your thought across in the sense of, here's what I'm laying out, and if you don't understand it, that's one thing, but if you do understand it, and you take that, and you spin it, and then you make the conversation something else. Unfortunately, in today's world, and again, I'm trying to come across as perfectly as I can here in stating this, people will take the truth, and they'll make it into whatever they think it is, or they'll spin it so that they stay away from the truth, especially politicians. There's a phrase that we use in society and I actually fail to call it out on this show all the time

because I know some people who are in here use it with not this intention at all. But I think that things can go downstream. Like when we, like I was talking about earlier, when we repeat things over and over, we can start to then take on meanings we don't want. And there's a phrase that I've used and many other people in society have used, including, as I said, guests on this podcast, where we say like my truth or your truth or whatever.

And John Borick, who was in here, was one guy who brought that up and called it out. And he said that we need to stop that. Yeah. There's the truth. It's not your truth. There's not my truth. It's the truth. Yeah. Because you undercut your argument and saying it. So like I was, when I was editing a recent podcast I did with Will, the head of Rec Philly, who's unbelievable. Check out that podcast. There was a point where he used that term and I know he didn't mean it like that, where he was saying like, you know, talking about something with like your truth and my truth. And I – it went in one ear and out the other. But things like that, we have to start recognizing and be like, well, wait a second.

Let's not let this get out of control because then eventually, as we've seen, people will say shit like that all the time. Like my truth is this. My truth is I'm really a rabbit. It sounds crazy. people do it because it starts it's a slippery slope thing it starts with one thing and then the other and then the other it's like i often say i don't know if i've said it on this podcast maybe i shouldn't say often but when i'm talking with people i'm like the, if they had any appreciation for the psychology of slippery slopes, they'd have my vote maybe in every election. But they don't – that's my biggest issue with them and then the corruption in these two parties. That's a whole other thing.

But outside of that, like that's my biggest issue with them because they have no demonstrated ability to understand that and then with republicans fucking everything's a slippery slope and you can't change a goddamn thing i think that's ridiculous so like if we had an ability to appreciate that there's these slopes we have to recognize they're there and navigate them ahead of time as we head slightly down some stuff we could fix things but i think human nature says we're actually not able to do that when we get into large groups of people right there was like 10 steps ahead yeah like you have to beat them to that slope you know you have to beat them before they contradict themselves yeah yeah i i don't i feel bad sometimes i don't... I feel bad sometimes. I don't have a... It's the one downside of doing this,

like we talk about it, but I don't have a solution for you. People listening, I'm open to ideas. I don't know what to tell you. I just don't... It's not like, we're going to do this,

and that's going to fix it. I... Bro... And then I'll shut down things that could fix it like people talk third party my first reaction is yeah good luck with that it's true that's my reaction i'm like not gonna happen i shouldn't be like that but right that's my reaction you think you're gonna lose half your fan base after you know some of these takes cancel culture no i think my fan base appears to be made up of people who are moderate liberals and moderate conservatives realists yes and then there are

i do have some fan base that's like a little leftist and some fan base that's ultra conservative it's on the outer edges but what i find based on the interactions i have with those people and dms and stuff what i find is that they are the type of people who hold those beliefs and have a self-awareness to the idea that they want to hear all ideas right and i appreciate the fuck out of that yeah and i always point to this example but like terrence jones and mike spear who are two guys i have on here who are very clearly left and very clearly right god damn would our country be a better place if guys like that were in all those positions because they'll talk they're humans they're real i don't know if the positions would change them i

think it could change anyone i hope it wouldn't but they'd have to surround themselves with the right team yeah and they're very cl you know they're not going to agree on much yeah they're very different but they have a nice way of going about it they recognize that they don't always have to be right you know that's just hard to find i do like that some of the listeners who are like them have found this show so that's cool but yes the majority of my audience to go back to the original point falls in that middle spectrum that's just i mean to me that's that's a huge win the question is and this is where i'm a hypocrite based on your question earlier about what i run for office and i said never the question is will people like that look to upend the system by doing things like that and running for office and if they did how would they

run for office yeah they're gonna do it with r the d like i don't know man it's i get stressed out thinking about this stuff because i don't have an answer for you now do you think um and again it's me genuinely asking this because i have no knowledge on how money works in that regard but you know having a realist quote-unquote realist in office who surrounds himself with a team that believes him or her surrounds himself or her you know with the team that believes in that same idea. Like, I'm going to do this, I'm going to make mistakes, and it's okay. Does that lose money, initially? Would it take everyone who works in Congress, everybody who works in the Capitol,

everybody who works in Washington and has those connections, would that take a while for them to adjust and be like, huh, what he's saying and what he's actually doing his actions are actually correct and it's actually bringing the nation together the problem is money that's what i'm saying like is that gonna be a big dip what do you mean big dip again like i don't really know how that works like because the way politicians and the way Democrats and Republicans and red and blue and all that's navigated, it's not to help the country. It's to make money. Do you think in actually bringing the country together, at least having that mindset as a president, do you think they do that with knowing that you're going to lose a lot of money?

I think I understand what you're saying. I think I have the theme of what you're going to lose a lot of money. I think I understand what you're saying. I think I have the theme of what – we're talking in a lot of complex terms today, which is good. It's good. That makes me think. I hope it doesn't – Again, that's a curious question. I have no idea how money works in politics sometimes. Here's the issue. The larger the group of people required, the more potential holes in the ship.

Okay. All it takes is one rat. So if I have to have a hundred people around me directly, one of them has to fuck the wrong person at night. One of them has to commit the wrong negligent crime that no one finds out about except the person who can hold it over them one of them has to be somebody who's playing the long game and is literally just getting on the inside to see what it is and has the wrong intentions one of them has to be the person that has some sort of ulterior motive whether it's self-created or created from something out of their control that has to do with who they are as a person or actions they've taken in the past or at this time one person has to be that way to sink the entire ship and so if you are starting a movement of we're going to be moderate

every single person that you're not doing it alone every single person on your team can't just be vetted they have to be completely without fault which also this example goes to show you why every group including the people we point to as the established good groups has issues because humans make mistakes humans have things that are wrong humans do things that other they don't want other people to know about and there's ways to then hold that against them i mean look it's it's how the cia uses leverage on everyone around the world they'll dig for stuff that happened 20 years ago too irrelevant shit too and yet guess what even though i have a lot of issues with certain things the cia does i also recognize there's some good they do

how do they do that good do they do that good? Do they do it by just saying, we're going to be good today and go save the world and fix it straight? No, they have to go get intelligence. How do they get intelligence? They get leverage over people. It's not just the CIA. I'm picking on the CIA. It's everything.

It's business. Of course, politics. It's friendships. That's how it's always worked, too. Yeah. I don't think it was ever a clean slate, except for the time when it, like, before Christ, when everything started in the world, you know? Would you fuck with the person if they had nothing? Few people will answer that question and say yes.

Define that more. What do you mean? Why does someone work for a congressman it's a broad question i'll answer it what i'm looking for they work for him because they're a congressman they have a set of beliefs if they weren't a congressman but they just had those set of beliefs would they work for them most of them probably not it's what's in it they don't have congressman or congresswoman title right it's a trickle effect up and down society with that what holds weight. Yes. And so to get a utopian group of people who just are literally the Mother Teresas of what they're trying to do. And like Mother Teresa, great lady. I think she's a saint, right?

I don't know. I'm not up with that. But should be. I guarantee you she did some things in her private moments she wasn't proud of. Think of the best people. And I don't need to draw bad attention to Mother Teresa. That's not what I'm doing. I'm not – whatever. I'm just saying nobody is perfect.

There's no such thing as utopia. And so people are going to gravitate towards things where even if they're doing it with the right intentions, there's still a reason that they did it in the first place. It's why they work for the congressman who thinks we have to change this issue versus working for the homeless person who also thinks we have to change that issue. One actually can do something for me in the long run. The other probably can't. And by the way, there's nothing wrong with that. That is a part of life but to get new thought processes into the spectrum and to get momentum money behind it you gotta you need a perfect situation and that probably doesn't exist and even if you didn't have that it's going to turn imperfect it's like anyone that starts it they may you said it earlier 30 get in get in for the right reasons and i said that was kind i might even take that back and say maybe that number is not wrong maybe it's actually right maybe 30 of people that go to washington go there wanting to do the right thing yeah the percentage that then become everything they hate is

unconscionably high it's unbelievable when you think about it too and i think it all stems from all the way at the beginning you know like what you went through as a child how you reacted to it how you reacted and adapted to failures in your life and how that shaped your mentality moving forward because there's a lot of people who get into that and think like i'm gonna do this because of me because you're insecure about something some things that are like you need that attention like you need that verification and that validation to say like i'm doing this you know you tell people like this is what you want to hear, and people buy in and be like, oh, great guy, but you're doing it for the right reasons because they want to help the country. They want to help people around them.

They want to help their community. But it's all about how you react to failure because everybody fails. You fail. I fail. You're going to look back five years at this interview right now and think like, man, whether it's the conversation we had, the takes you gave, the takes I gave, the setup, you know, the camera angles, everything. You look back and be like, man, like, I could have done so much better there. Like, you have to fail even if you don't realize that you're failing in the moment to get better. That's a key distinction, yes.

Right. You know, like, it's easy to say, like, okay, in the moment, probably shouldn't have said that, could have done better there. And you learn. And it's another thing to look back at it down the road and be like man like if i didn't get that i wouldn't be here like mother theresa isn't levitating above the rest of us like she wasn't brought down from the skies and just levitated above everybody like she had mistakes early on in her life even though people might not know it and she adapted and she used those failures and mistakes and some of those i don't want to say dark times but

things that she'd consider maybe sinful i guess i'll use that word from other course she was a human being right and she learned from those and took them and used those experiences to help other people that's what makes her great while other people might take their failures and use those insecurities as hate what was it you said like 60 seconds ago just the phrase you put it about people doing things for themselves do you know what you said i'm sorry i'm putting you on the spot people like in what regard like talking about when they take actions on things they're getting into it for themselves and then you're saying they get it in for the wrong reasons because they're insecure about who they are as a person.

Like they need that validation and that verification for whatever reason it might be. Like they just feel underappreciated. Maybe they feel swept under the rug in a sense. They deserve this power for themselves. They're not necessarily doing it for the right reasons right i think a thing that we need to recognize in that though is that the next extreme to that is that oh to you know the best people are the people who do nothing for themselves there is not a single person who has ever walked this earth who in making a decision to do something man had there been are there one-offs yes there are one-offs but I'm saying like

across the span of their life in overall major decisions of actions that they took over periods of time there is not a single person that did those actions where it didn't have at least some element of being for them because they have to do it

that person is the person taking the action whatever it is i started this podcast did i start this just for other people wow no no is that a huge benefit of it and something that is a huge piece of why i started it abso-fucking-lutely but is it 100 no i do. I enjoy doing it. It's what I want to do. I don't want to be an accountant. Not that I was an accountant, but I'm saying like, I wouldn't want to do that. That's not me.

So I still want to do it that way. Like Mother Teresa, let's go back to that example. She helped out poor people, lived poor, walked the talk, the whole nine. Did she do it all for poor people? Or did she do part of it because it made her feel good too? Yeah. Of course she did part of it because it made her feel good too yeah of course she did part of it because it made her feel good that's a beautiful thing but like we shouldn't shy away from that no the difference is are you doing something all for yourself and giving no fuck about the long-term effects that has on everyone around you that's where it gets again to kind of

go back to my cup analogy like you have to fill your own cup in order to fill other people's cups right like you need to take care of yourself before you can even have the mindset and mentality to help other people like if you're in a depressive state you're not feeling your best like how can you help other people like it takes a strong person to be in a dark place and be like you know make selfless decisions to help other people but like in a selfish way if you're in the right mindset and you take that time to build yourself to what you want to do in the long run you're going to influence and help all other people because you're in the right state of mind to do it agree a thousand percent right so you in a weird way you have to be selfish in order to be selfless has anyone ever like talk with you about that on your show

extensively um i've only brought it up a few times you know when you talk to i guess i'll call them mental health coaches because you try to get inside their brains like why you do what you do and talking about how – because again, some people disagree with that, which I think that's almost clearly a fact that you need to help yourself before you can help others. Because like you could take out your insecurities on someone like not everybody does it you know you see it across the world people will take out their own frustrations on people their own garbage and dump it on other people you know like yeah an example you you could get into a car crash with someone yeah that sucks everything else like that person could be in a bad state of mind you know like could have gone through a divorce you know your spouse cheated on you you just got You know, like a lot of other factors come into that and they just take their shit out on you. As opposed to just being like, okay, that happened.

How can we handle this? I think that's most things. Yeah. I actually, I think that's kind of everything. I, even people who end up being evil, right? I don't, I don't think people are born evil. I think they do have to become that. They can become it very early.

They can be more predisposed to it. I don't think they're born evil. But like you think of the worst people in human history, the actions they took that are unconscionable were a response to things that they deemed unconscionable. Even if they were totally false i mean hitler blamed an entire loss of a war on a group of people who had nothing to do with it right and then he learned to believe it and then said well we're gonna solve it by getting rid of them horrible like the worst thing ever dangerous because he actually did force himself into believing that exactly not fact, but he forced himself into believing it was a fact. Yes, I know.

There's an example. I know exactly what you were saying, and some asshole could say, like, oh, the fact. Right. I could have walked in here without eating anything before I woke up today, and one thing could have set me off and be like, oh, that Julian Dory's an asshole. You did nothing wrong. It's just my state of mind, and I'm taking it out on you. I'm taking my insecure moment out on someone else because I don't want to place the blame on myself. Micro to macro.

Micro things happen all the time. When you let them build on top of each other and over and over and get to an I think that's where we have a problem politically because we've allowed those micro things that started, which were these two ideals at the beginning of the country in history, to then grow into these giant, as Jim DiIorio would say, follow the money campaigns. Yeah. And it's like, well, somewhere along the way, we started to let that happen. Same thing like when they're talking about fiscal policy and we see what they're doing. All the banks around the world are doing all the currencies. It's because one day someone was like, all right, let's get out of this crisis. We'll just inflate it a little bit.

Yeah, no, we'll deal with that five years from now. Five years later, we'll deal with that. There's that slippery slope again. There it is. Contradict yourself, you get out of it. And guess what? That's not a political thing. Everyone's been a part of it.

Everyone does it. Everyone's been a part of that. You ain't running from that. You're all at fault. Nope. But they let shit like that start somewhere. I'm very curious about that. Like when I talk with people and I try to get into how they got to where they are.

Like why they think about something. I don't know if you do this when someone's sitting across from you but i i try to piece it together maybe not while i'm talking with them but after we've done the episode and i'm like listening to what they said again i'll try to piece together like oh right those experiences right there really started that like when you unravel everything dating back to whatever it was that puts you in the mindset this is what i'm gonna do like again like you starting this podcast it's a passion thing first and foremost a passion project that you want to turn into your i want to

say business but the thing that you do yeah your occupation is absolutely what you do for a living um like what made you want to do that when you unpack everything? Like, you'd say, oh, this is a passion thing, but we talked about you wanting to be number one, right? Like, what does that stem from? Why are you driven to be the best at what you do? Is it to prove to people something or is it just to prove to yourself that I got one life and this is how I want to go after it? Like, where does that drive come from? It's much more number two. yourself that i got one life and this is how i want to go after it like what drive like what where does that drive come from it's much more number two i think everyone has a slight element

of number one that's how you're viewed by your peers in that way i think i certainly have a slight element of that if you're michael jordan and no one knows that you're michael jordan does it really matter that you were michael jordan maybe maybe not so there's an element of that but yeah the element for me is is the main element is the latter which is the competition with yourself to challenge yourself to be great I I love greatness in people and one of the things that I didn't realize was that in my last career, like I never thought of myself as being able to be great at something. And like now I at least have a vision of something that I want to be great at. Yeah. But I don't know what greatness is.

I've never had it. I've never captured it before. So hopefully I get there. But I was always looking for it in my last career I was looking for the thing you know when whoever you came across there's the thing that they have I've talked about this with my friend Shan on this podcast we had a good conversation about a couple other people I think too but like you can't explain it you don't know what it is it's not like one thing like thing thing but you meet someone you see

someone do something you're like oh they got it like you watched you watched jordan go through the lane the first time you knew basketball and i wasn't alive when that happened but there had to be a part of you that goes oh that's different that is different you know you you see shit like in our industry you watch rogan sit down with someone for 10 minutes and actually focus on it you realize oh fuck wow 10 minutes oh he's got it you know like you can point to this stuff and i never thought about whether or not i could ever be capable of whatever it was. And so now there's a part of me that says like, okay, well, I'm not there, but I'd like to earn the ability where other people can say. So this is where other people come in too.

Right. Like, oh, he's got it. But for me, it starts with the, I know I got it. So how do I get to the point where I can say, oh, I know I got it? That's the true success. Yeah, it's also dangerous though too because you don't want to be like, oh, I got it. You know what I mean? There's a difference between confidence and cockiness for sure.

But like you were talking about greatness. Like you said, you haven't achieved it yet. You know, like that could go back to people saying like, well, what do you define as success? What do you define as greatness? Some people are content and very fulfilled at being a stay-at-home parent. Like to them, that is their greatness, right? As opposed to someone saying, I want to be known as the number one guy who ever did whatever I do, whether you're an athlete, musician, filmmaker, actor, businessman, whatever you're an athlete musician filmmaker actor businessman whatever you're doing like you want to be the number one and you want to be known for it right you want people to

acknowledge that would you say that your you know definition of greatness would to be that be number one at what you did and have people acknowledge or just to be satisfied in what you're doing yeah if there were a way that you could leave that kind of legacy when you're gone but people didn't have to know it was you that would be really cool to me but that's not possible your name's going to be attached to stuff again like you're you're the guy that wanted to be behind the curtain but at the same time be the greatest of what you did i think it's probably that is probably my insecurities talking more than anything because i'm very aware of the fact of how unbelievably not perfect i am

and it's scary because you think of these gods in society as like oh that's them they're they're the thing and i'm like well i'm not that But in reality no they're not I mean People watch The Last Dance Michael Jordan is far from perfect Like he's got all his flaws Still Michael Jordan There's nothing wrong with that So it's a weird thing when you're in the middle of

Oh am I going to chase something being that guy For whatever it is It's a very weird thing to think about Some people they want to just have clout and do stuff and i guess that's what they're going after you're not gonna make it very far i don't know what that that's your drive i don't know what that does chasing like that's as easy as someone starting a show and 20 episodes in not getting the viewership they thought they were like i'm on camera now why aren't people watching and then they just quit because that drive isn't strong enough your why has to be a

lot stronger than i want people to look at me because you haven't found your identity i'd say at that point if that's what you're going after if you're starting with attention you've started in the wrong place you have, and this is with anything. It's not a podcast. It's with anything. You have to start with an intention. Yeah. That's why you were asking about vision and stuff.

And I had a lot of trouble answering that because it's a complex answer to me. But the main broad point I gave you is true. And that's, you know, giving people a space where they sit down and they're there. Right?

Mm-hmm. If I started with a how can i get the most eyeballs on this right away that doesn't happen who cares that vision doesn't come to exist because i'm going to try to do things that then are totally concocted it's like well what would that even be and that'll only last for so long that'll fizzle out quick remember that fred guy maybe that's the point exactly no wow so i guess how old are you 28 yeah you're not that much older than me so there was this kid with a really high pitched voice that was always like hi i'm fred like big youtube guy probably the same years as like that i carly show was on on nickelodeon maybe if you show me i'd remember i'll pull it up keep going i'll i'll pull up a picture of him but um oh that's good perfect he was huge probably the number one youtuber in america

he did endorsements with john cena um he did so much for himself early on and now that he's an adult his voice got deeper his schtick was gone and he's nobody now i mean not nobody like if you look him up he's still like oh i remember that guy fred figelhorn that's the guy yeah he's on youtube so i can't play him but do you know who i'm talking about though now that you see his face yeah i never really watched this stuff at all so neither did i but like i knew who he was when i was seven eight nine years old right and now it's like he's older he has no platform like like yes he's a public figure because of what he did but now he's he's not on youtube he's not doing the same thing because he didn't grow on it he didn't adapt right that's key he had a niche and then when that niche was taken

away he didn't know how to handle it you know what the really lucky thing about what we do is it's that a part of our job is following where the culture goes yeah talk about the things that are relevant we are forced to adapt strictly by what's happening in the world no literally and there's other things to adapt like styles and getting better at stuff you have to do that but i'm saying like literally nothing else like as long as you do the basics of getting better at your craft the only adaptation is what's going on and let's make it relevant and let's talk with people who are doing things that are relevant to whatever this year is yep when you are just creating some sort of content and you have a shtick it's got a phase man and once that phase runs out you better have something else to go to

right i mean i see it like that when i was on tiktok in early 2019 seeing the early people have success there i see people fade because they can't adjust on things they get really famous for one stupid usually stupid thing now they're sad to go look at their accounts they have 10 million followers and they can't buy 10 000 views because they their their moments that's a bad look too it's a bad look and then there's there's other people there's one i'm not going to say yet because i'm talking with him and he's going to come on here but there's other people who are very aware of making a shift and they're willing to give up some attention for the time being to build the next facet to adapt reinvent yourself and they have a real talent behind it i love that

that's why this guy i'm thinking of that's why i want to have him on because he's in the middle of doing it and he's really fucking good right very few people do that because they can't understand why oh my god i had your attention why do you not want it now they don't realize that things get old you can't just do the same fucking thing there has to be some sort of like oh there's a newness to this. There's a new feeling. Oh, 100%. I mean, unless you're Guns N' Roses and you're playing Paradise City every night for 35 years. I can understand that.

If you're making the same paycheck you have been for 35 years, keep on doing what you're doing, brother. But yeah, I'm with you. There's so many people out there who find the thing that makes them special and then at one point in time it's going to fizzle out because people have seen it over and over and over again no matter what you're doing and if you can't adapt if you can't reinvent yourself and if you can't tell yourself like i have to like i have to gamble here i have to take a risk this might work it might not but either way you're either going to fail continuing to do what you do or you're going to fail going after a new version of yourself and more likely than not again staying

true to yourself that's kind of been the theme here if you go and take that risk and believe in yourself of what you want to do it usually works out one way or another whether it takes time or whether it's an instant hit with people and i think that's actually the issue because it's one thing to say it like oh yeah just do what you like and and be yourself and that's it but one of two things usually happens and this is why people don't break through in a lot of things or why people in their business of choice whatever it is work for people their whole career and i'm not i'll touch that one in a second because i don't think that's fair to say and give that the wrong connotation at all but

i'm saying for people that want to go out and like do it themselves or like be the head of whatever it is they do or take control of their destiny with it. They either end up being what they think is themselves, but it's what they actually just think other people want to hear or see or the product other people want to hear or see. And or they don't have the fortitude to just literally continue and go about the process, like the whole blowing up overnight. 99.99999% of businesses and people don't blow up overnight. There's 10 years before their overnight success or whatever it is, a year, five years. There's a period of time where you got to have nothing and not get rewarded for what you do.

But the first grouping of people that are just doing what they think other people want, I think a lot of people come by that honestly. They're not trying to be that way, but that's how they are. Like when I started doing this, one of the things that made me be like, okay, I got something right was when my friends were coming to me like, god damn, like you sure you want to put yourself out there like this? Like this is how you are. But I'm like, yes yes that's exactly why like that you're hearing the same thing on here as i am with you they're like

yeah but like you sure like in today's society i'm like yes that's what i want people don't like it no problem they don't have to listen but that was a big fear of mine like oh am i changing when the mic comes on like i don't know and now now i know what that looks like now i know if that were to happen and i also picked a medium where you really can't do that if you're talking with someone for three hours good luck trying to be something else like it's i think you could fake it for a half hour i definitely think you could do that but just bending around for three hours wherever the fuck i I don't know that that's possible. No, you'll get quickly exposed, which is why I respect your platform so much because I'm going to use the term again, you know, cooking people in the sense of, you know, like you could cook a steak for 10 minutes at Denny's and be like, here you go.

But like you got to slow cook something like a ribeye that takes time. That takes like a good half hour to marinate and grill and it's got to be good right yeah that's how you're gonna get stuff out of people by again making them comfortable in that regard and to kind of touch back on you know being a real version of yourself and putting yourself out there as you because you know who you are as opposed to someone thinking that they know who they are wanting to be someone who they want to be but that's not really who they are like that'll fizzle out quick you know like the the big question here is how disciplined are you to get to where you want to be and who you want to be right while staying true to yourself and because you're

either going to determine this is who i am and I'm going to keep going down this route no matter what anybody thinks or you're going to be who you are. And people are going to be like, I don't like that. And then you're going to be like, yeah, that was stupid. That sucked. And then you're just going to revert back into being this fake ass bitch that just cowers to everybody's mood because that's the status quo. That's what people want you to be. What I want to be careful with though anytime I'm talking about something like this from like a personal experience

is that we tend to then weaponize it as the people who don't want to do something on their own or start something are like, what the fuck is wrong with you? That's not the case, man. People have to be really honest about what they want. I know some of the happiest friends I know are talented guys who make solid money and they never want to start something on their own. They married when they were 25 and they married the love of

their life. They married someone they were with for eight years. Love that. They're very comfortable in their skin. They're happy. They know where they are. they know where they are they know where they want to be they have their priorities in life to me that's the dream even if they do it differently than i ever would want to that's because i'm me and they're them but that doesn't make me right or them right it's it's all it's a very very personal thing and i think a lot of times we start to create this whole well if you're not at the top of it, then what's the point? And that's not – that to me is completely unfair. And there's a lot of people listening right now who I'm sure are nodding their head going, fuck yeah, because I love my life.

I work here for this company or whatever. I get to do this. I have this life at home. Like, that's amazing. Good. That's exactly what you should go for then you know and there are a lot of people that try to separate society in that way and and it's not right because society is supposed to be made up of all different types of people who play all different types of roles it doesn't mean that like you know you'll want to encourage someone to just be a trash man but maybe there's someone out there who fucking loves that job that's okay yeah that's great and if they make enough money and

they're smart with it and and they got a good husband or good wife whatever it is awesome you know like to me i i always try to check that because like even i'm sure sometimes Got a good husband or good wife, whatever it is. Awesome. You know, like to me, I always try to check that because like even I'm sure sometimes when I say things, it can come across the other way and I don't want to do that. It's not representative of culture itself. That said, there are a lot of people who do think that they want or maybe actually do want to do something on their own or start something and they're just not built for it in that sense though what you just said like do you surround yourself with people do you trust the people that you surround yourself with enough to actually take their advice on that like maybe you're not cut out for this yes really oh yeah yeah because i and i was even if you like deep down in your heart like i i'm being almost called to do this like i have to accomplish this and everybody's around you saying like like you tried like we support you in anything that you do we'll support you if you

keep trying just know that like you could be doing something so much better that's one of the hardest situations there is and i haven't had to face that i hope i never have to now you're still young means i probably won't be good enough at whatever it is but there is such a balance between conviction and criticism and then there's even a balance between criticism and doubt. And then there's a balance between doubt and reality. And these are all some of the finest lines out there. And I think it's the hardest thing to be self-aware of and I can't say if I am or I'm not as a result I'd like to think on some things I do have a massive self-awareness but overall all four of those or three of those that I just mentioned combined together I don't know that anyone has

the ability to have a hundred percent self-awareness so it is a risky walk in that way but it's hard because you kind of have to again to go back to validation in a sense you know i asked you earlier if five years from now your platform didn't really grow like you looked at that as okay the uh my audience saw what i was doing it didn't work out wasn't good enough wasn't good enough. on that you're saying that you're kind of blind in that sense you're not seeing the wider picture like you're chasing something that just people aren't reacting to people aren't no no i wouldn't i wouldn't say that would be taking it too far yeah that's not i don't it's hard for me to answer because i've only ever been in my head. I only know how I see the world. Exactly.

And what my thought process is, my capabilities, my lack of capabilities. I don't know what it's like to actually fully be someone else and how their wiring in their brain is and how it's different. Right. So it is very hard for me to sit here and say this is how it is. And so I won't say it like that i do think that far more often than not if there is something i mean you have to have some talent there's got to be some and and this is a really mean way to put it but like if you're in a wheelchair you're not going to go to the NBA, right? That's a reality. There has to be a level of possibility to it, I guess, is the real word I'm looking forward to or looking for. some ability in it i do believe that a significant percentage of the time if you are actually

serious and willing to die for it you know quote unquote then you probably are to a to an extent that is enough have you probably have a ceiling that is good enough to make it quote unquote and whatever that is and however the term make it is assuming it's at least fair and not ridiculous like i'm going to be the next marlon brando as long as it's not like number one in the world in that sense for everyone then i think that people will break through because hungry dogs will find a way to eat to survive that doesn't mean it's going to be true every time and the reason I think it is true though more often than not is because in order to actually be that crazy and rabid about it

you deep down beyond just what you've convinced yourself of you actually have to believe that you have the talent and that's where one of those fine lines is because do i think some people can literally fully honestly convince themselves that they do and they just don't have any of it yes but i think time the longer the time you do it and the more iterations and the more ability to face failures and find measurable improvements on top of that that you have, the more inevitable that self-awareness will become. And by self-awareness meaning realizing whether or not you have the minimum threshold to actually make it or not. Does that make sense yeah i mean you'll look back at the first podcast you ever did and compare it to now and be like okay i'm definitely way better than i am than when i started yeah i can watch and if you look back at you know episode 100 compared to episode one and

think like hmm i kind of have the same mannerisms still as monotone as i was during episode one still not comfortable in front of a camera then, you got to look at yourself in the mirror and be like, am I cut out for this? Like there's that old quote, like if you want to succeed as much as you want to breathe, then you will succeed, right? But at the same time, if you're not getting any better and you can't see it

and everybody around you sees it and they're watching you slowly decay and like almost killing yourself in a sense trying to get it over like that's that's a dangerous position to be in there are outliers sometimes oh yeah i mean i'll here's one i was dead wrong about dead wrong about it and i'll give them all the credit in the world and i never said it publicly because it was long before this podcast but i said it to people and i'll correct the record all the time i was always very obsessed with the fact that so many people with attention are the last to know so the athlete himself or herself is the

last to know they've lost a step right they're the last to realize you know i was scoring 30 points a night father time has gotten to me and i can really only be effective at that level scoring 21 and so they still try to be the guy scoring 30 a night right and it actually hurts the team because they're over maximizing what they can actually do yeah and so one guy that i say is an outlier here and this is why it's important to say is carmelo anthony when carmelo anthony went to the rockets two years ago two two three years ago whatever it was and the rockets famously whatever the big story was they cut him after 10 games i would say unquestionably the data because they were a big analytics team and also the eyes said that they were 100 right to do that carmelo

anthony looked cooked he could still knock down down a shot because the guy's an incredible scorer but when i tell you he was the worst defensive liability i have ever seen above the height of five foot ten on an nba floor that's putting it kindly and if you went and looked at the data analytics of his defense i mean james harden coming back from the strip club and walking straight onto the court in game 45 of a regular season game was significantly better at defense than Carmelo Anthony. So I looked at that and I saw Carmelo putting out all these tweets like, oh, I'm going to train, I'm coming back, whatever. And I was like, here's another example.

He's the last guy to know. He was a great player. We just don't have it anymore. He's not that guy. But to Carmelo Anthony's credit, and I would love to look him in the eyes one day and say thank you for the inspiration for proving me 100 wrong he went in the gym and changed certain styles about his game and also i'm sure his body and physicality even stuff we can't really see and if you look at the analytics, he came back a year later.

And his defensive analytics, he's like an average defender, which is fine because guess what? He's still a great offensive – very good offensive player. So any team can look at him and be like, oh, he's helping. So the Trailblazers signed him. He helped. Now the Lakers signed him for this season. As long as he hasn't lost a step again or whatever, he's going to help. And yet,

even though I say all that, he's the exception. Because most of the time, they just don't know. They don't realize that, like Allen Iverson, guy I love, he lost a step when he went to Detroit. We could see it. Then he signs with Memphis the next year and he thinks he's AI.

You know? 15 years dating back to when he was a great player in high school of being the smallest guy on the court and playing like the biggest dude and throwing your body around and putting the team on your back catches up to you. And so he's running around with the

Grizzlies trying to be Allen Iverson. He's not Allen Iverson. And god damn, it's very hard to tell someone who already has tasted that that they're not that anymore. Imagine how hard it is to tell someone they're never even going to have the chance. That's tough. Yeah. I think you nailed it right on the head with carmelo anthony i'll give you another sports you know example jorge pasada i grew up a huge new york yankee fan in northern

new jersey are you a phillies fan yes sir okay so just to clarify um jorge pasada great catcher in the prime of his career right phenomenal six-time all-star with the yankees 07 08 09 2010 is he in the hall of fame yet no he uh in his first year on the ballot didn't make the percentage and they kicked him off the ballot he only got four percent of the vote so he's not even eligible anymore pesada yeah crazy right that's criminal again a crazy talent probably one of the best catchers in baseball in the prime of his career towards the end you could tell he just was not the same player was not the same hitter i remember in the prime of my formative years i'm like bases loaded one out who's coming up oh fuck jorge always grounded into an in an ending double play. It's like almost every single game.

And it got to the point where, I think it was Jose Molina was the backup catcher. They made him the full-time catcher because Posada couldn't hack it anymore behind the plate. He became a full-time DH, but he still felt like he was good enough to be a full-time catcher. And I think everybody realized, even us watching at home at 7, 8 years old, he's not the same player he was probably in his prime and it took him a few years to realize that to the point where after 2011 uh his contract was up and the yankees were like we're not gonna resign you like it was a great run we appreciate and thank you for all the great times five-time world series champion but you're just not cut out for this we have to go in another

direction he goes if you're not going to resign me i'm going to go play for someone else and they're like that's fine we can't resign you and in that moment he's like oh fuck they're serious and he looked at himself in the mirror talked to his family and he retired even though he still felt like he had plenty left in the tank. He finally hit him like a brick wall. Like, oh my god. They actually don't want me. It took an organization he loved having the heart to tell him, look, the Yankees could afford to pay him a couple million dollars.

He's like, you're bluffing. That's basically what he thought. You're bluffing. He's like, that's fine. We're not going to invest in you anymore. He's like, oh. It's like, that's fine. We can't, we're not going to invest in you anymore. And he's like, oh, it's real. They don't want to, you don't want to see someone bake out too long in the sun, especially when they mean a lot to your organization.

You don't want that with friends either. Nope. It's a really weird, it's an uncomfortable thing but there's there's those lines i talked about and you have to have some sort of you have to be able to step out and be like all right this is not this has got to get better or like am i should i do that and like i question that stuff all the time and it tortures me but i'm thankful that I do because it's much better than the alternative. Maybe I wouldn't be tortured all the time, but I'd be sitting there like going about life, going about what I'm doing. No real vision or goal.

And no – Just happy to be there. No ability to self-reflect and self-criticize and try new things and whatever. Right. And like people can have the best of intentions around you too and take you the wrong way and like parents are so common with that parents job is it's like to look out for you you know so they're what they're more wired towards worrying on things so like sometimes sometimes my dad will have great criticism of the podcast and i'm like oh actually that's that's that's a good one and it's like light and then sometimes i'm like no

you're out of your fucking mind you have no idea what you're talking about because he doesn't you know he's not in understanding the full demographics or whatever and it's more from a place of worry like you have to take chances making content. You have to try things. And anytime I try something new, my dad, like something small, my dad would be like, no. I'm like, if I don't try these things and sustain them, how am I going to know?

And then over time I get the show. I'm like, see, told you. And sometimes it's like, hey, that one. Yeah, I stopped that. That didn't work. Yeah. But you have to, you have to do it. People will prevent you from just doing to learn.

You have to iterate. Whether that be you talk about people who just go about every day like, I'm just going to go to the bar, hang out, no real goals. If that suits you if that suits you that suits you you know like i i consider that atmosphere like me doing what i do and having a vision for what i want to do like that would be a toxic crowd to be a part of because like they have no real goals how am i supposed to get better if nobody like actually really cares what they're doing but then there's you know the other side of things where like you're associating yourself with with people who were intended to help you grow, not considered to be toxic people in that nature, like like-minded people who are giving you plenty of advice, but you kind of outgrow each other. And that's a difficult thing too.

Have you ever gone through something like that where it wasn't necessarily like you were in a bad relationship with someone, but you just outgrew each other? I feel like that's way more difficult than leaving a toxic environment i agree i think it's a case-by-case basis because there are people there's like some of my best friends yeah totally different priorities in life completely different priorities and they're my homies because they respect mine and i respect theirs and we're good right those are great friends it's not a breakup it's more of like we understand where we're all coming no no i'm even talking about where it doesn't change anything and you don't leave it behind at all like some of my best friends to this day, very, very different. I'll give you my buddy Dylan. He and I, we think about plenty of things like similarly, like when we talk every single day of my life, like on some sort of small scale.

But like you want to talk about someone who does things behind closed doors and is just no attention, just whatever, who doesn't, you know, he doesn't listen to fucking podcasts. Total opposite. But he respects what I do and I respect what he does. That's the key factor. And so we support each other on it and we can also both be like a little critical of like what one person is doing on stuff. And then also things that we do have in common about life and stuff like that. We always talk about that. That's great. The problem is a lot of people don't do it like that. A lot of people fade because they're like, man, why'm doing this. Other people think that's dumb. So don't think that what they're doing is dumb because you're just doing the same thing if you do that.

It's hard. Sometimes I'm not perfect with that. I'm definitely – I'm sure there's sometimes where I don't notice it, where I judge on something because someone does it differently. Right. It's a tough balance. But at the same time, your perspective is not their perspective right and you got to recognize that not everybody thinks the same way i wish we could recognize that in politics just to tie a bow on that that'll never happen julian no i don't like saying never but i still say it sometimes and i feel – That's the one exception.

We never say never, but never for a while. There are some weird things happening though right now, like weird cyclones of like – what's allied with like ultra libertarians on the vaccine because now they have something in common and it's latched onto them yeah you're sitting back like wait a second six months ago even you two wanted each other dead right Right. And now, like, we're so fucked up with so many different hills to die on that the latest hill will even push a cyclone of people around.

Yeah. You know? I don't know how we got there, but you said something that just triggered you. Yeah, made me think of that. I have that capability sometimes you you do man

i i like what you do i i like i respect people that have been doing it a long time and you it's not like you've turned the full focus to it at this point i hope that you do sometime soon i know you're doing a lot of it but like you do other things yeah You're paying the bills in other ways. Right. And this is like what you do for fun. But, you know, you're a very curious guy. And I guess a big question I would want to know is how do you decide overall who to talk to? I know you mentioned maybe it was before the podcast or on it. You were saying like obviously some people just get thrown your way and you're like okay whatever that sounds interesting i'll talk to them but like when you're reaching out when you're reaching out to me or you're reaching out to the guy who came before me or the guy who came before that yeah are you thinking of it in a pattern of

like well i just talked to two people like this so now i want to talk to this type of person or are you thinking of it like there's certain groups of people you want to talk to and others you don't or are you just kind of like all right uh i think you have the capability to learn something from everybody it doesn't matter if you're a broker if you're a host you know like us alike if you're a homeless person on the street you know that might be a tough pill for some people to swallow like i think you could learn from everybody so when i when i see stuff whether it be on social media like i saw your content started following you started following what you did you had one of my buddies and i'm like oh like we have a mutual friend i'm gonna reach out because i want to pick your brain about what you do because we're in that same realm like you're a very curious person you you have a ton of beliefs that you go out of your way to showcase you know on a weekly

basis and you don't give an f what people think and that's like that's inspiring right and i'd i'd wanted to pick your brain about some of that stuff because i loved some of the interviews that you've done uh there's others yeah some people reach out to me and it's like okay i don't think i really want to have a conversation with that person this other person sounds great like i i definitely love to pick their brain about some of those acting experiences with robert de niro and al pacino sure why not like there's definitely something there that you're proud of um obviously other celebrities growing up watching like oh i'd love to get a chance to talk to them and then we have a great conversation there's some people i grew up watching that i had

conversations with they were total dick wads yeah and now i know you know like some people are like don't meet your heroes because you never know like why not now you're exposed to it now you know oh it's not all about that you know it's about being a decent human being first and foremost doesn't matter what you believe in doesn't matter what your religion is doesn't matter what your your political stance is you know like be a decent human being don't be a dick like that's the only thing i look at at people but yeah i i enjoy talking to people from all over the place growing up in sports love talking to athletes huge rock and roll guy love talking to rock stars love talking to actors actresses um uh human right rights activists talked to um uh what was her name yamno park wrote that book uh north korean human rights activist she was actually she was on rogan yeah yep You talked with her? Very briefly.

You know, she gave me about a half an hour of her time. I asked her what I was curious about, you know. Not a comfortable conversation, but a conversation nonetheless. That's how you grow, right? What did she say with you? Just basically talking about, you know, some of the, I don't know if you watched that full interview with Rogan. I watched that full one. Talking about, you know know kim jong-un and how he displayed north korea like basically lying about it right and how everybody was just

starving there people were being eaten as they were dying by flies and rats do you imagine witnessing that no it's one thing to imagine that it's another thing to actually witness that as you're escaping like she did and for her to go out of her way to write a book about it and at the same time talk about it and you could hear in the base of her voice how emotional she is about it reliving those times constantly over and over again in these interviews it was a tough tough conversation to have and in interviews like that you know you have to ask the right questions and be like polite and respectful because it's sensitive stuff but as an interviewer um you know you have to take that into account you know read the book you know had to be well informed to know what is going through her mind and why

she wants to promote it to the best capability. As she does. Because it's my responsibility. As a host. Like you said. You come on. With people like me. Or other people that you bring in here.

It's easy to just have a conversation. And we'll see where it goes. But like in that situation. You got to be prepared. Because it's easy to have a conversation about it if you're knowledgeable about it but if you casually say one bad thing sets your set sets your guest off and it comes off as disrespectful right yeah i see what you're saying with that i in a situation like that i think there's an extent to which i've had a couple of those where it's some clear experiential stuff. Not on that level.

And it's all great experiences though. I'll agree with you. I think you have to have some preparation for a general understanding of where the evil exists or the wrong existed, whatever the situation is. In this case, we're talking about a government and country and a dictatorship and having some understanding of what that is and not being completely blind to it. Yeah, I'll agree with you i i would if she had resources available if i were talking to her yeah i'd probably review a few of those before right i think that's i think when you're dealing to make your point again i i think when you're dealing with things that are so unbelievable if you didn't experience them yourself and in a negative way you have to do your best to have at least whatever possible empathy you could have for that ahead like even watching rogan he did a great job with it you know give him all the credit in the world but

the amount of times he said wow that's crazy like you know like when someone says wow that's crazy and you just think oh you're not that interested it's like the quote-unquote thing to say i think that's just his nature i i didn't i thought i i will say i i thought that was pretty masterful on his part the way that one went down i see what you're saying i agree i I don't think he came off that way. I'm just saying that's kind of the general sense. Like if you and I were having a conversation and I just went, wow, that's crazy. And then there was dead air for five seconds.

It's like, oh, was he really interested in what I was saying right there? I think it's sitting across from him and knowing if you're looking at him, if he is. There's people who can look at you and go, wow, that's crazy. And look at you just like that. And like they just said that because they're like well what can i say next and then there's people who are like wow that's crazy yeah wow like and that's that that's an mo of his that's what he does right i guess you have to feel out the vibe in the room yeah it's it's a vibe, but that's really cool that you talk with her.

And it's crazy to me that her story gets shut down, but it doesn't surprise me at all. It's just like, follow the money, man. That's what it all stems back to. But yeah, to answer your question, interviews like that, they're hard but they help me grow you know like those are conversations i could look back on and be like man like i'm glad i had that conversation i'm glad she walked away with it feeling you know respected she got her points across and she actually like respected me enough to take the time to talk to me because that's what it's all about you know like getting to that next level in a sense like we're talking about you wanting to be the best again at what you do and eventually you're going to get to a point where you interview or

going to want to interview bigger names just out of curiosity ask them shit that they don't normally get asked you know whether they're on jimmy fallon jimmy kimmel all these tonight shows or on even rogan you know like four hour platform like you want to ask them stuff that they're not normally talking about that that's what differentiates you as an interviewer right so it's fun getting to talk to all these different people i would say this though um has definitely take a longer time growing the show just because it didn't have a niche and that's by design right like your show you know you talk to you want to talk to a wide variety of people i'm the same way with my show my only niche is long form content exactly there's no like everyone's saying oh you gotta have like if you're a real estate agent you have to have a show based on that that's how money's gonna come

quick and a loyal fan base is gonna come quick i'm like i wanted to do what i wanted to do and starting young i was able to do that. Starting as a freshman in college, like I was making money elsewhere. So I had time to grow it. And by the time I got out of school, get a studio, get a huge sponsor with a huge affiliation. And now we're rocking and rolling

because I put in the time and effort unknowingly, blindly. I'm like, I want to do a podcast because I want to be a talk show host. It would be cool to have a platform to talk to people be curious enough to ask them questions and selfishly learn more things that i didn't know you know because again going into it i was just big baseball fanatic i really had no knowledge on anything else and i've turned into a completely different person with a ton more um not just knowledge but a general sense of awareness i'd say when talking to people like four years ago i wouldn't be able to sit down

and hash things out with you for three hours on anything that we've talked about so far so it's partially because you're forced to be civil. Yeah. I mean, I guess you're not forced to. You could be an asshole. But people, especially when they're in the eyes of other people watching, you don't want to do that. Now, it doesn't mean if someone doesn't say some really stupid shit, you shouldn't come right back at them. I haven't had to do a ton of that in here, luckily. But I wouldn't hesitate for one second doing that. But if your disposition is more confrontational for the sake of getting a moment or just being that way to do whatever, hey, more power to you.

But that's not what I'm looking for and obviously it's not what you're looking for. I'm curious though. Is there anyone – because you've done so many, that's why I'm thinking about this a lot, but did you ever have a shocking guest? Someone who you got done and you're like, holy shit. Maybe not even for the right reasons. Good reasons or bad reasons?

You know what, both. Definitely, I interviewed Dave Matthews from the dave matthews band and if you know anything about like his fan base it's like a cult almost totally yeah my family being a part of that cult um me not necessarily but i got to interview him at a festival one time backstage and he just was in a bad mood i think uh very unorthodox an unorthodox fella for sure um just the way he presents himself the way he talks just like i don't know not socially aware with some things i don't think he's from america either so um but i mean i um i didn't get a memo that we weren't allowed to record audio for these. It all had to be pen and paper because I had a press pass to write an article about the event.

So everything I had to write down and then write it down on my laptop later. So for whatever reason, we weren't allowed to record audio. I still think that's weird because it's easy it's easier to do that as opposed to writing everything down that they're saying so i didn't know that so i immediately put my phone like you know in his face like just to record the audio not like in his face but just enough to where like i'd pick up his vocals and i start asking him the questions i have prepped and immediately without any thought just whips his hand out knocks the phone out of my hand completely shatters my phone

he's like no no no we're not gonna have any of that i'm like what's going on and his publicist came up to me she's like we're not allowed to record audio did nobody told you that shattered your phone not to the point where it was completely broken but enough to where it would it bummed me out cracked your whole screen yeah everything it didn't replace it i just replaced my phone like two weeks ago i dealt with that phone for the past year and a half completely replace it he did not it was never even offered by anybody and i i picked up the phone i'm like all right sorry it brought out a pen and paper asked three simple questions he didn't really give me any answers and then he left

to do his show and i'm thinking like what a dick and i told my parent i told my family about it and they're just like again being huge dave matthews fans well did you piss him off what did you do it was your fault was it your body language what did you do why'd you put the phone in his face did you not know there was any audio i'm like okay relax oh my god i well first of all depending on the artist it's never i blame the publicist for letting him record an interview right before a show that's a horrible idea for most artists right he's not in the mindset to do right but people people can be especially like creatives they can be weird you know like they're they have their you ever seen look mom i can fly no travis scott documentary oh yes yes yes one of my favorite documentaries ever and it's completely not in the style i like it's like literally a home

video camera just following them no narrative normally like when i first started watching it i was like fuck this i turned it off after three minutes and then like six months later i went and i'm like all right let me try it i'm like riveted because it was it was so real yeah but there's a scene in there that i think perfectly nails what it is sometimes where someone's not and i'm not saying this is what was happening with dave because that you're in the cult too aren't you no i'm not at all but i'm saying that just sounds awful like what he did so maybe he was having the worst day ever maybe not but that just sounds bad but when it comes to like a level of like abrasiveness on certain things there's a scene

in look mom i believe i can flirt i got the name wrong right yeah there's a scene in Look Mom, I Believe I Can Flirt. I got the name wrong, right? Yeah, there's a scene in Look Mom, I Can Fly, which is that Travis Scott documentary. a show there that night and he has the head of production at madison square garden standing right next to him now mind you this is like the cathedral of arenas in the world this guy who's the head of production there is clearly one of the best in the world at what he does right but travis scott is if not the best performer in the world he's one of them and he is so exact with every little thing that happens for the experience that's why people who go to his concerts his concerts themselves are like a little cult because people and i mean that in a positive way people are just totally encaptured by what he does he's been arrested for inciting a riot before when he didn't incite a riot because it's so insane and so there was something with him being dropped down into the stage for a song

with some sort of concoction and the lighting where the timing of the lighting coming on to him and the beam of it wasn't what he was envisioning and so you see i think he was like shirtless in his hotel room travis scott like not looking at anyone just like talking like when i'm up there that light's got to be coming out like you're gonna hear me say bump and then i need you right there going bump and it's on like it's it's right there and and and they if they're up in that part of stands right there they see me coming down like boom right in your face because if they come in like two seconds after it's fucked it's done doesn't work and you see the guy the master square garden

guy's being professional as hell and he's like no i got you i got you and and he's listening and you're watching this and you're almost uncomfortable because you're like this guy's being a dick right now like holy shit but then he just kind of keeps going and he's like so that motherfucker's got to be on like that time in two seconds just like i said it's going to come on right here i'm going to come down we're going to hit the song boom we're good then we're going to roll into the next one. And everyone's still looking at him. And he's like, are you got it? We good?

All right. Thank you. You're doing a great job. I appreciate you, man. And walks out and everyone understood it. It wasn't, yo,

this guy's a dick. It wasn't this artist sucks. Shut the fuck up. What do you know? I'm the pro. Stop talking to me like I'm a child. It was, no,

this guy's just like really creative. And he's not thinking about how he's saying things right now he is picturing this wild scene in his head and he's passionate and just getting it out and then at the end it's like he ends his blackout and wakes up and he's like okay thank you you're doing a great job i appreciate you guys walks out it's understood there's a difference between that and just being an asshole and being like a bad person. And to me, unfortunately, it sounds, again, maybe he was having a bad day,

but that's fucked up. No, I understand it from a mentality standpoint. Like you have so much going on, like you want it to be perfect. Like I would not want to put my phone in Travis Scott's face that day, you know? But like, how easy is it for Dave Matthews just to be like,

hey man, can't do that please put your phone away yeah very easy very easy so that was a bad experience give me a good one now let's get a positive um rob schneider comedian snl actor that's awesome you know part of that whole sandler farley chris rock era um and again like i got it i was preparing for it like kind of anxious i'm like he's a big name hopefully he's not like i didn't expect him to be an asshole but like at the same time you don't want to be like hey man what's going on thanks for having me you know it's like all right now i have to like set the stage get him in his element right off the bat he's like jack handsome man what's going on like yes'm like, yes, he's cool. This is going to be so easy.

He basically was just interviewing me. He's like, you play sports? Why'd you start the podcast, everything? He's like, yeah, I'm out here in Nashville doing a set. We were talking about bench warmers, the baseball aspect of it. He's like, oh, getting Reggie Jackson for all of that? He's like, yeah, I'd love to do it. Like hitting mailboxes in the back of a pickup truck for some of the he's like yeah i'd love to do it you know like hidden uh um mailboxes

in the back of a pickup truck for some of the scenes like he was just all about he's like oh dude i had to ice my arm every single day and at the end of it was that the one where he's going you can do it yeah that's how he ended the interview i'm like oh thanks so much for coming on man thanks for being gracious enough to do it we gotta do this again sometime he's like absolutely man keep doing what you're doing just remember you can do it. We got to do this again sometime. He's like, absolutely, man. Keep doing what you're doing. Just remember you can do it. And then he hung up the phone. And then he ended the Zoom call.

I'm like, that was amazing. That's awesome. And he gave me so much great advice. He's like, yeah, me and Spade are doing a movie out in Scottsdale where you're at at some point in the fall. I'll give you the contact info for the producers. You get on it on crew.

That's awesome. If you're a filmmaker and that's something that you want to pursue like here like contact them i'm like thanks rob schneider like i didn't again didn't expect him to be a dick but like i walked away from that inspired almost like you're a big name you you didn't have to be that kind to me you know like you didn't know who i was going in this could have been just a standard interview and you were, again, like in great enough of a mood to go out of your way and actually help me. Like give me knowledge, you know, give me a bit of a lecture in a sense. So that was cool. You expected an aura.

You kind of expect an aura sometimes. Like, okay, they've done a million interviews before. Like it's my job to ask questions that actually intrigue you. Another one, Kobe Smulders. She was Robin Scherbatsky in How I Met Your Mother. Okay. interviews before like it's my job to ask questions that actually intrigue you another one uh kobe smolders she was robin scherbatsky and how i met your mother okay um was in some of the marvel movies as well her character is just like a stone cold bitch and how i met your mother i'm thinking like oh she's gonna be like not mean but again in the same regard just like cold at the beginning now it's gonna be on me to start the conversation she was so nice like the sweetest i'm like just totally like lived up to like again like one of my favorite tv

characters of all time like totally lived up to the aura so nice she's just like oh thank you so much asking her controversial questions about the show like because the uh the ending of the show was very controversial a lot of people's eyes i came came right at her. I'm like, you know, the ending of the show, a lot of fans are kind of wishy-washy about it. She's like, oh, a lot of people thought it sucked. Let's talk about it. And she was great about it. Gave an in-depth 10-minute response to it about how this is how it ended up. This is how the writers and the directors wanted to start it.

And this is the solution we came up with like and if you didn't like it you didn't like it you know could we have done it differently yeah but you know that's the way it was owning it i love that so yeah i mean i've been fortunate enough you know again i talked to some mental health coaches some business entrepreneurs um sean prez who was the agent for p diddy for the longest time just talking about all the shit he had to eat before he got to the point of where he is now as a big time you know a music producer um it's just some of the stories that i've heard i've walked away from like oh my god like i almost had to cancel today because i had to go to class or like wasn't feeling it mentally, like didn't start off my day right. But then I go into a conversation and I leave inspired.

Like that's what I aspire to do after every interview. Leave walking away inspired and hopefully for some guests moving forward, maybe not some of those bigger celebrities. But for other people that I have conversations with i want them to walk away with a similar experience yeah you get there and and people catch that vibe regardless of if you're just starting out or someone who has been doing it a long time like you and you're also young too so right away there's a judgment there but then people are like oh i was that was comfortable that guy was cool and and that's you know what most of them that's even if they're not the best person like that's they're so they're still a

person then they have very basic you know certain things there's there's just a different level of attention they're forced to deal with on a day-to-day basis and some deal with it better than others right now but i i think there has to be more people telling the stories of the people who are like a rob schneider who just like imagine that how many people like if you see rob schneider you're so recognizable he's one he's a celebrity you know that oh that's rob schneider and i'm sure that happens to him all the time and yet he can still kind of be that guy and and not be like, oh, fuck, here we go again. And by the way, I don't blame some of these people for thinking that. I see it like people are really funny with people.

They get starstruck. They just go interrupt them when they're doing something with their family. That would drive me nuts. It would drive me nuts. So sometimes when we hear about a celebrity handling something wrong i get it and i'm like you know i'd like to see you make it right because the person didn't have bad intentions who led you to do that but i get it i just don't you know something like the dave matthews thing is fucked up i'm sorry like you're an approachable guy like how can you just slapping

the phone out of the hand and seeing your phone break in front of other reporters too they're just like oh sorry dude that's just that was a dick move on his part some guy told me you'll like this my buddy's dad after i finished college i was living up in north jersey and he lived up there and i knew him a little bit he's like yo let's go out to dinner i was like oh this is great this guy can give me advice he's very successful so we were talking and he gave me some great advice that night but i asked him at some point one of the stereotypical questions like i think this one was something along the lines of what how did you get people to take you seriously in your 20s and build a business like you did because he was very successful from almost the jump and he said you know it's funny you say that because i was sitting at a dinner with someone who had a similar age difference between you and me at the time who was like me back me now to you and i asked him the

same thing and he said to me rob every person you're sitting across from i don't care if they're male female hot ugly rich poor without getting graphic just remember that they take a shit too and they do it the same way you do and i was like damn so i don't picture people taking a shit but like i remember we're all just people in this world for a limited amount of time some have more attention than others but like at the end of the day the same type of neurons wire us and that's just what it is it kind of goes back to chasing your passions like if you are passionate about being a garbage man and that fulfills you great awesome like that's the true version of yourself, where Slash goes on to be one of the greatest guitarists of all time

in rock and roll, Guns N' Roses. Again, a huge public figure, famous guy. He chose to pursue that because he's passionate about it, and it paid off for him. That doesn't make him better than you and I. No. Just because he has more Instagram followers than us, that doesn't make him better.

Just because his bank account is bigger than us doesn't make him better. He chose to live the life he wanted and it paid off for him and kudos to him you know this ad example i i think we were talking about this before we went on camera but you were bringing up like kirk cobain in here and it's like you know we see it now he killed himself and he was he was a depressed tortured guy which is so sad because he was so talented. So many people loved him. But I love that picture in here because that's when Kurt Cobain was happy. Yeah.

He gave him a cigarette and a guitar. That's his element. He's in his pocket. He's in his element. That was when he was happy. And I think his thing was we made him out to be this guy where it's like there's him. And then to use the example, we were just using the trash men and everyone else. And it's like that's not how he wanted it to be or saw it.

He was just like, I'm just doing what I fucking love to do. That's all he wanted too. Yes, yes. The fame. I mean that's the – I think that's what killed him. That's the lore, right? That he just couldn't handle being famous.

Other people say Courtney Love was another reason. Yeah, I mean I don't know. I do. That's another discussion. That's another discussion. I do think that the first one, I can't speak on the second one. I'm not nearly knowledgeable enough what was going on there. But I think the first one, looking back on it, was a big part of it.

And I worry about it with some great people who I respect in pop culture because I can see similar signs. And I hope that society is at a point where we have the ability to reassure those people that, hey, you are – there's a reason we look up to you and you're important and you do so much good here. Right. Stay with us. And a lot of people loved him. Yeah. So that's difficult. How do you get

inside like dave grohl the drummer for nirvana at the time now foo fighters face of rock and roll now he's known to be the nicest guy in rock and roll the fact that he didn't kind of rub off on that around being kurt for as long as he was three four years however long nirvana was around in the early 90s like that i think speaks volume too what do you mean rub off you know like surrounding yourself with happy people who bring great positive happy vibes all the time and you still are that tortured on the inside some of these great people man they and i'm not saying kurt's an interesting one i don't know if i could say this for sure about kurt so i won't other people i could i've used an example of robin williams before that definitely for what i'm universally loved but that's the point they live

to make other people very happy and they never make themselves happy and they don't think they i don't even want to say they don't think they deserve it but it's like they are so busy taking care of all of us that they don't take care of themselves well that was one of his most famous quotes too he's like i make sure that everyone involved in my life is happy because i know what it's like to feel worthless on the inside robin williams said that yeah no shit when did you've never seen that quote either you're learning a lot today yeah yeah that's one of his most famous i just got like goosebumps with you saying it it came it became well more knowledgeable after he died you know are we sure he said that or that was like an instagram quote that got attributed no that's he actually sure he said that or that was like an instagram quote

that got attributed no that's he actually said he said that in an interview i i don't know what year it was it was in the early 2000s i believe well there you go you're probably gonna have to fact check that yeah we'll go find that in a minute when we're done but that's i mean i can't that's exactly what i'm getting at you know and and i have and like a guy like that we've heard a lot of anecdotes about what a cool guy he was like he was the rob schneider like at all times like that dude and it's just so it's hard to be on all the time yeah man and it's i think about that with some people because i'm like i just hope they realize that because like this is a good person and they're doing a lot of great things and there's a reason they have the attention they do and like i hope they don't feel worthless because they're

not but look you don't know these people you're not with them i can't control it what you can control is that society can give them enough vibes hopefully you ever hear howard stern's story on robin williams interviewed him once in his career and it was in the midst of Howard Stern just being the ultimate shock jock just jerk of an interviewer I don't know if I've heard the story so tell me um basically he had Robin Williams on his show and he he self-admittedly today says I was not prepared for the interview was not in the right state of mind to do the interview so he was just being the character Howard Stern acting like a jackass and robin williams was just not about it just asking him inappropriate questions left and right robin williams felt disrespected i don't know if he walked out of the interview or if just

at the end of it he's like i'm never coming on the show again like you blatantly disrespected me and um i want again that was probably in the 90s early 2000s again we could fact check that but it was a long period of time when howard stern finally became you know civilized you could say like he's still kind of a shock jock but at the same time like he knows he made a lot of mistakes in his life as a young guy in radio now being an older gentleman that's interesting and he said that one day he's like i need to reconcile with robin williams and he gave him a call he didn't answer he said he left a voicemail he's like robin i'd love to get together i'm so sorry for the way i treated you like let's get together and try and hash things out and he said that was the day robin williams took his own life.

Wow. I have not heard that story. That's some weird universe shit right there. Yeah. I have a lot of respect for Howard Stern. I do. He gets a, you know, he's a little... He said it was one of the biggest regrets in his entire life that he didn't reach out sooner.

That's crazy man i don't know you don't know that guy i mean we didn't know him no but like you feel like you did he's one of those so i don't know but looking at it taking it a step more personally there's no reason you shouldn't be saying or thinking the same thing in your own life with people around you and i really try to do that that's not something that i actively thought about ever no even like a few years ago and then somewhere along the way maybe it was like in a little older and understanding a few things and how complex things are now i get that urge once in a while i'm like oh you got a call so and so yeah how they doing you know it's it's a it's a very basic thing but you by the way you get a ton out of it personally you feel really

good when you do that it's not even just like this selfless act you're selfishly selfless yes and it feels very it's very fulfilling yes and it's doing a good thing too as long as you're present and you gotta be present but you just never know man you never know what someone's going through no that's some deep shit man that's a good spot to end it um but this this was this was a good convo you got me wound up today i'm gonna review this tape and be like god God damn it. Yeah, fact check everything I said. It could be a lie.

I could be building my brand. You never know. We will. We get some stuff wrong in here. When we notice it, I'll let people know. It's just how it is. I always give that disclaimer to people. Like, check what we say.

Go back and apologize later. Yeah. I try to get as accurate as we can when we're in here so there's never an intent to be wrong i'll tell you that and i think we get a lot right as far not opinion wise i mean opinions can go any direction but i'm saying like as far as like reporting on things in the context of discussion i think we get most things accurate but in the times we don't, you know, I try to recognize that. So I'll check that when we're doing it. Beautiful. All right, man.

Well, thanks for doing it. Thank you for having me. Absolutely. Good to connect, brother. All right. Everybody else, you know what it is. Give it a thought. Get back to me.

Peace.