Julian Dorey Podcast - 👀 #89 - Why She Left Orthodox Judaism | NAHSCHA

Episode Date: March 4, 2022

(***TIMESTAMPS in description below) Nahscha is a singer, songwriter, and former member of the Orthodox Jewish community. Her music is available on Apple & Spotify. ***TIMESTAMPS*** 0:00 - Intro; A War outside right now; Hecklers in crowd 14:41 - Background on Orthodox Judaism; Nahscha’s grandfather was in a Concentration Camp during the Holocaust; People who deny the Holocaust are nuts; Jewish identity as an ethnicity/race vs. a religion 37:20 - Nahscha’s family; How Nahscha’s older brothers influenced her decision to go to public school outside the Orthodox community; The tribal nature of religion; Staring at people; Gender roles in Orthodox Judaism 58:15 - TV and pop Culture exposure growing up in an Orthodox Jewish Household; How Nahscha went about making friends outside the community; “Balance” vs. An “All-Consuming religious system; No religion actually *knows* about the afterlife; The necessity of good and bad in the world 1:21:48 - Religion has duplicated in things like politics; Finding “truth” in any news outlet is difficult; the Ukraine video of a father saying goodbye to his daughter; The Butterfly Effect 1:45:33 - How Nahscha got into singing while growing up; The 10,000 hours theory 2:05:35 - The power of human imagination; Bob Dylan & pitch; Nahscha’s writing process 2:25:22 - Sad vibe music / writing; The sad artist creative curse; The problem with saying “I’ll be happy when ___” 2:39:52 - Busking; Nahscha and Julian remember NYC during the height of the P@nd3mic ~ YouTube EPISODES & CLIPS: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0A-v_DL-h76F75xik8h03Q  ~ PRIVADO VPN FOR $4.99/Month: https://privadovpn.com/trendifier/#a_aid=Julian   Get $100 Off The Eight Sleep Pod Pro Mattress / Mattress Cover: https://eight-sleep.ioym.net/trendifier  Julian's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/julianddorey  ~ Beat provided by: https://freebeats.io  Music Produced by White Hot Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

And then I wanted to do it too. But to be honest, I had no idea what I wanted. I didn't understand the difference. To me, it just seemed like, I want to do that. I never get to do that. Or like, it was like I was seeing like a glimpse of a world that I've never really seen before. Like seeing them do things that I never got to do.

And I remember like what's cooking everybody if you are on youtube right now please hit that subscribe button hit that like button on the video and as always if you have a second would love to see you drop a comment down in the video comment section as well i say it every week but to everyone who is leaving likes and comments on these videos thank you so much it is a huge huge help on youtube so i appreciate all of you to everyone who is listening on apple or spotify thank you for checking out the show there if you haven't already be sure to follow on either one of those platforms and leave a five star review if you have a second and i look forward to seeing you guys again for future episodes now i am joined in the bunker today by nasha nasha is a singer-songwriter and as you can tell by the title of this video she also grew up in the orthodox jewish community and later left to pursue her dreams and so this

whole topic of growing up in a very structured, rigorous religious environment, growing up and then getting outside of that later in life, I've always been very interested in it. And I don't know a ton about it across a lot of different religions. So I was happy to see Nasha come in here and talk about it. And that was a lot of our conversation. I had actually seen Nasha over a year ago.

She blew up on TikTok and I was very aware of her. She sings around New York all the time. She's got an unbelievable voice. And as it turned out, my friend Brian Kern, shout out Brian, was friends with Nasha. And so he reached out and said, would you want to talk to Nasha? I was like, absolutely. So we brought her in here and we did it. Now there's one note that i do have to say and this is entirely my fault and it's a bummer and it's as great as this episode was there's one thing at the end you're not going to get to hear and i want to explain that quickly when nash came in she brought her guitarist gabrie down who phenomenal guy and did a phenomenal job with Nasha performing a song at the end in studio

sounded incredible she did her single the lottery she did it obviously with an acoustic guitar it was unbelievable after we recorded it we took a look at the audio we put it on the speaker system and had it loud and listened to it just to check for quality, and it sounded amazing. And so for all my audiophiles out there, take this as a great lesson, something that I knew and I got careless with, and so I fucked up. But never, ever, ever check the full quality of an audio, for music especially, on a speaker system. If you're doing a podcast and you do it every week you can edit on your speaker system i still check the quality on headphones as well for

that but i don't check the entire thing per se but with music which it's been like a year and a half since we were recording music in here so it had been a while with music you must must check the quality on the headphones so i was actually going to be putting out this episode yesterday it was all done and i went to go do my quality check by exporting some of the music files just to figure out where all my levels were and i heard that on the board the mixer right here i had her ever slightly too loud so what happens is when she hits several like several different notes within say like one syllable and changes her voice as a great singer does the audio if it's a little bit too loud will not capture all of the sound and it'll create a cackle so when she was singing and

i listened to it on the headphones i could hear it at like the mid volume. I could hear it when the volume was at like 50, 60, 70% on your phone, like listening to a podcast or listening to music. And so I went through it a bunch of times. I was up all night looking at it and I'm like, I can't put it out because it wouldn't be fair to Nasha. It takes away from her performance and it was incredible. So I would never want to take away from that so i did talk with nasha today we're thinking of a couple alternatives to do obviously the youtube episode can never be edited once it goes out now it's going to be as it is and so you won't hear the music which by the way you'll hear me talking about oh she's going to perform throughout the episode and then it never happens so it will cut off there but

in the future maybe i'll have her record some singles down here and then edit the audio version of this podcast and include that in it and also put out at least the clips on youtube i don't know we'll figure something out but i felt terrible about that because it was the best part i mean as great as our conversation was like this girl's talent is unbelievable really took my breath away what what she did in here and i loved every second of it so my apologies there that is entirely my bad but the rest of the podcast was great nasha was awesome i really really appreciate her guitarist gabrie coming down once again feel really bad that that didn't make the cut per se because of the audio, but we will figure it out in the future, and hopefully you guys get to hear her awesome voice.

Check out her music, by the way. She will say where to get all that, but her name is spelled N-A-H-S-C-H-A. I hope I did not fuck that up recording this live right now. I'm pretty sure that's what it is, though. And you can find her on Apple and Spotify. That said, you know what it is i'm julian dory and this is everyone understands this but few seem to do it if you don't like the status quo

start asking questions see it's like so light in here right now and yet like europe is burning it just feels weird right it's very yeah it's it's like the world is very dark right now. It is. And for people listening, we're recording I think it's about six days before this episode comes out. So Putin has invaded Ukraine. All this shit's going down. I'm trying to keep track of it, but I don't know what the hell's going on.

Just gotta let it play out, you know? Exactly. That's it. I just hope for the best. We're here to talk about some fun stuff today yes i've been looking forward to this a lot me too number one thank you for coming in here thank you for having me thank you for bringing a crew hell yeah by the way we were in here because we're gonna try some music and i was explaining to you before that i'd done a little bit a little bit of

work before the show happened like with my cousin in here and we were doing it like the old school way like trying to get the mics lined up but you brought you brought like a full amp yeah it's professional so we go all out we'll get to hear that voice a little later i'm excited for that but yes in the meantime my friend brian kern told me i had to have you on and i'm like no no like i agree i know who she is because i've seen your tiktok i saw your tiktok like a long time ago maybe like a year ago at least something like that there was some sort of video you had a few but there was some sort of video that went viral of you on i think you know what i think it was the one where where the kid was talking shit from like a football field away or something and you were yelling back you know

i'm talking about the alicia keys one I don't remember what song it was but maybe because there's there's like a good three where people are like talking to me there was one where you were giving it like right back though oh I think it's the Alicia Keys one because I I this lady was like yelling at me she was just like you. Like down in the subway? Yeah. She was just like screaming. And I was just like, I was just singing louder. And I was just like, thank you. And I was like, you're so sweet. Oh, my God.

And then she just kept yelling at me. And I was like, well. See, that's how you got to handle it, though. Yeah. A lot of people, they'll be like, oh, my God. I would have freaked out. I would have like cursed her out. i would have done this and that and i'm like no not my style if you do that that's just like it just revs them up even more and you're just giving them

too much energy like to me i'm like thank you absolutely like what what is what is your opinion matter you kill them with kindness yeah you don't know why they're doing that. Who are you anyway? Exactly. You're like, your face is covered, your mask is on. I can't even see your face. Like, pretty cowardly, you know, to sit there and yell at someone. And one, I can't see your face. And two, like, just keep walking.

Yeah, I think people sometimes, they're either just like that, obviously, or they're just having a bad day. And just don't like you know i have bad days too but when i'm down i've been in that subway a million times my first inclination is not to yell at whoever's like playing music right there or something no because of course it's something that no one's necessarily asking me to be down there so i get it you could be like oh it's loud or oh i'm on the phone like okay but you're you have all the freedom in the world to walk away exactly and there's no need to like project the bitterness or anger onto someone especially like you just don't know what people are going through or what's happening and i just think it's like nice to be nice even if you don't like it who cares why does your like we can all have an opinion but should we always voice it if it's not necessary? Like, what is it going to do? You know?

Yeah, it's not gonna. It doesn't it adds nothing. If anything, it can like, not for me, but if someone wasn't as like, confident in what they were doing, it could really hurt their like confidence and make them never want to do it again. So if anything, you could just like down which i think that's like how do you sleep at night if like that's the energy you give you know what though here's a positive to it if you're gonna be like someone like you who's been growing and we'll talk about where you're at here because you're incredibly talented you've been doing this a long time very very cool but if you are looking to be a performer not even someone who's you know a grammy winner but someone who just goes and publicly performs does it for money whatever you you got to be able to you got to be able to handle that because you're going to be in front of

all different kinds of people you never know who's an asshole you have to be able to face that so in a way you know no disrespect to the people who back down and then don't want to do it again but if you can't take that you're probably not going to make it anyway you know yeah i mean that's kind of the truth it's unfortunate but it's true you have to have thick skin like i mean if at the end of the day you go home and something does really bother you like you're only human i'm not going to be surprised. Like, I'm not made of stone. Like, I have moments too where I doubt myself or feel, like, in my head. But I also have enough of, like, a shield.

Yes. To just, like, let it bounce off because I have to do what I have to do. And I know that not everyone's gonna like me. Like, that's not a realistic world like no matter who you are you have someone who doesn't like you adele aretha franklin it doesn't matter you could think you could think like oh no they're legendary everyone loves them it's not true there's someone that doesn't like them and that's just because it's all like subjective or whatever everyone has their own opinion you hear one voice

you're like oh i love it someone else hears it they're like i don't really like it you're like okay well that's your opinion cool it's the beauty of art though like human creativity there's different strokes different folks you know i drive some of my friends nuts i like that because i listen different strokes different folks i've never heard that before you never heard that one you're gonna use that one i think it's good it's not mine someone else said that but you look at it like i listen to a lot of different kinds of music if i have friends over and start to play stuff sometimes they'll be like what the fuck are you listening to yeah i'll throw someone that they like you know and they'll i could go over their place they'll do the same thing and that's like kind of the beauty

of like communication through it as well like a song song isn't just, oh, you're listening to it and you're getting escapism and enjoyment. It's like it takes you somewhere. It makes you feel a certain type of way. And then when you, the way songs actually get noticed is because other people share it around and then they want to listen to it. And then suddenly like there's a shared feeling. Everyone has their own interpretation of it, but there is at least a similar theme going on for everyone. Does that make sense? Yeah, of course.

I think that if you allow yourself to be open to it, anything can make you feel something for the most part. I feel like sometimes people are just too judgmental or they hear something and it's not what they're used to or it's not what they think they like, and they'll be like, mm. But if maybe you really sit down and listen or listen to the words or just understand

maybe even why they wrote the song or just listen to it and appreciate it for what it is and move on, then you'll see that's a whole different perspective. I like to think of it like that. I appreciate people for what they do. And that's it. I don't need to hate on it or be be like why would they write that yeah i think you have like a really good

perspective on stuff and it comes clear like literally in your public content but then talk with you spending some time before this like it's it's very genuine and i think i think that's kind of what what people are looking for behind the people whose music they listen to you know are there a lot of superstars who are probably like kind of fake people sure there's there's plenty of them but there's a lot who aren't there's a lot of people who they reach people and even after they die and stuff like people really feel them like yeah we're talking about because there was something to them there's a lot more there than they are and it makes their art great and so

when i'm talking with people i'm always looking for you know especially with like musicians like people who have a backstory and like well why did they end up this way yeah it's like that with everyone to be clear it's not just musicians i mean i do this for a living i talk with people right yeah everyone has their own perspective but for you you, when I was talking with Brian, I'm like, yeah, I've seen this girl before. And then going over the whole story of you leaving the Orthodox Jewish community where this is not a thing. I really want to talk about that today because you and I had a short chance to talk about that. I was pretty excited about the different opinions you might have there. But can you just tell people what your childhood was like and where it all started

you know yeah we see where you are now but far cry from from where it all began yeah so i um was born in anglewood hospital okay but i was raised in muncie new york um and i was raised like ultra orthodox i'm one of eight children four boys four girls so I grew up very real yeah it's a lot it is a lot Wow yeah yeah they were just popping them out you know but um I am the youngest four boys four girls and yeah that was basically like the first part of my life was just all being religious and and just like judaism um which i love being jewish i'm very proud of it and then as i you know my parents got divorced and certain things happen that kind of just life

happens and things change and my brother started leaving the religion my sisters got more religious and then i was kind of like following in the footsteps of i don't know who but i was like i saw my brother's going to public school and i'm like i want to do that i don't really know what i'm going to public school so you guys weren't going to public school before that no we were in like in private school for like specifically for like orthodox yeah just for like jewish people wow and this because this this was up you said it was in what monty new york monty new york where is that so monty new york is in rockland county and that's near like um nanuet palisades mall pomona so that's up there a little bit um up there to the west yeah like i don't know what the i'm so

bad with northwest so i'm sorry but if you were in like new york city it'd be like 30 minutes from the city so it's not like upstate new york it's kind of that's closer than i thought okay yeah from here it's probably like two and a half hours or something if i had to get straight up the state yeah but it's a very like uh jewish community for sure so is that you're talking specifically orthodox jewish community though or i mean there's general there's like levels to it so you know you have like people who are hasidic or who are like more conservative but there's just a lot of jews there but for the most part they're all pretty religious i think in my experience for people out there who aren't totally familiar you know how would you just to be clear what would you say the difference is between

an orthodox jew versus somebody who is a modern i guess they call it like reformed jewish or whatever like traditional jewish i guess at this point yeah well i hope i answered this right i might i don't know i it's been a long time since i've been really like religious and everything so you're probably better than all of us go easy on me as adele would say but um i i feel like the difference is that there are a lot of rules to judaism like whether it's shabbos which is um friday night to saturday night it's like you don't use any electricity you you go to shul you pray you don't drive like there are so many things that are off limits you basically are just supposed to like relax and like it's like your day like your day of rest so

i feel like in a way some people who are more like traditional might just like celebrate the holidays and might um incorporate certain traditions but they might not go as far to like completely do shabbos the right way or dress the way that like a very orthodox person would dress and that's like you're supposed to cover like your elbows cover your knees and cover you know collarbone and all of that so there's definitely like um they call it like being sneas so there's a way to like dress there's a way to like interact with the world you know like a lot of um religious people wouldn't um like females and males wouldn't be interacting with each other like normally like how we would you know it's like men and women

are not supposed to touch at all like at any age um i mean i think when you're like really little it might i don't know it really sometimes it depends on like the family and like how each person prefers to raise their children so i don't really think there's like one specific way but there are like a lot of rules to it that generally you follow so it's called being shomer which is something where like you don't you don't touch and unless you're like married to that person so i think that's kind of like a big difference is just how um detailed the rules get maybe you know because when you're like religious you're incorporating a lot even like eating kosher you know what i mean being really strict on like the type of food you eat and where you eat and how you eat it having like different some people have

like different things for dairy and meat or you know and like stuff like that and then i feel like if you're more traditional like maybe you just incorporate holidays and you know that's fine i respect that we should all respect that it's a different world however you want to do it and how you want to celebrate it that's fine but i think that would be the difference is like when you're depending what level you take it to it's like like for me the way i think of it is i felt like i was raised in a bubble you know like all i knew was like jew juno but you know some other in other situations the the kids might still go to like public school but then like incorporate jewish traditions like in the home but then they're still like out in the world with other people but for me it was like

you go to i went to private school and it was like you're jewish and you're with jews and everyone else seems like foreign foreign yeah but you're saying that some in the orthodox jewish community as well would go to public schools and things like that and still be a part of the community it happens sometimes it could but i feel like that's pretty rare i feel like when you're um more religious you you stick to like private school right because they have they have like the jewish communities have like their own places you know know, like their own schools. And even where I'm from, like in Muncie, it's like they have their own schools. They have their own like, you know, grocery stores and their own restaurants and like every like their own salons and everything in there so that technically you don't have to like go too far right and i think there's there's a really important distinction to make

here because i'm always thinking about the future world and all the little things that people are going to do like with their finger when they wake up and not touch anything but then like you know everything's optimized you know like if you ever saw jimmy neutron back in the day that's a real throwback from when i was growing up the cartoon He would like have his teeth brushed by like a laser, like shit like that. I always think about that stuff. And when it comes to sleep, the bootloader to that, the thing that's going to be building that type of space where like your sleep is this whole magical technological thing is Eight Sleep. The Eight Sleep Pod Pro Cover goes right on top of your current mattress in queen or king size, depending on what your mattress size is. And it ties directly into Eight Sleep. The Eight Sleep Pod Pro Cover goes right on top of your current mattress in queen

or king size, depending on what your mattress size is, and it ties directly into Eight Sleep's proprietary app and measures everything around your sleep stages throughout the night so that your sleep is optimized for you. As I like to put it, you'll sleep six hours and feel like you slept eight. So if you use the link in my description, along with the code TRENDIFIER at checkout, that's T-R-E-N-D-I-F-I-E-R, you will get $100 off your 8 Sleep Pod Pro cover today, or you can get a full-blown 8 Sleep Pod Pro mattress, which is the same thing,

but it has an actual mattress with it. So if you want to get a full new mattress, you can get that. And you'll get $100 off that as well. So once again, that is TRENDIFIER at checkout, T-R-r-e-n-d-i-f-i-e-r hundred dollars off to the best sleep of your life we're going to talk about the topic of like organized religions and communities with that i'm so fascinated by it and i think that there's good and bad on my end the way i look at things is how do you have a balance with with the world so for instance there's a huge difference between someone who's a very practicing protestant or something like that versus someone who's like crazy evangelical you know and that's their entire community everyone they spend every

second around same thing in like the jewish in in the jewish religion you have the traditional judaism now where it's like people are integrated they live in society with everyone else and they have their culture and they have their religion and then in the orthodox jewish side it takes it all the way and it's and it's for the And it says, no, we do everything all together. So there's no assimilation as well. It's a culture. So on the one hand, if we're talking about Judaism, I have an unbelievable respect for two groups in particular

that I'm at least very familiar with in this country. And that is Jewishish people and greek people because in my opinion they do among the best job of you know from like the perspective of the country of origin slash religion of integrating themselves together at all times and and never losing that bond of that community and having that culture and also then sharing that culture with everyone else through different things but also they are they're very ingrained in society as well so like i look at them as an example and i mean let's be honest especially with the jewish people it's like you know the holocaust was it's crazy to think about it wasn't even 80 years ago

no i know it literally like there are people alive from this yeah who were 100 who were like 15 20 years old in one of those camps yeah i had family in the holocaust you did yeah you did okay my grandfather and his father and his sister and his mother and his sister's fiance. Yeah. Did any of them make it? My grandfather did and his sister and mother. But he passed before I was born. But he did survive, yeah.

But he was in it for like three years or so. But he was only like 15 or something when he went in so it's very crazy do you know where he was which one i can't remember off the top of my head but i do have like the information somewhere that's so wild to me it is very wild it's one of those things where it's yeah i mean it's it's it's interesting for me because it's definitely like like i come from a survivor you know yes so and it's like you said it didn't even happen that long ago and it's such a serious thing that it blows my mind that people could almost like think it wasn't real or think that like or even like kind of like forget that it was as important as it is i feel

like it's not really even spoken about that much but um unless like i don't know but yeah it's not in my opinion it's not i don't think so but yeah so that's pretty um but i mean like of course i i do not like that he had to go through that but at the same time i wouldn't be here do you know what i mean because everything has a domino effect but i'm very proud to be his granddaughter to say like that my family came from that as sad as it is but it's also like and i also had family die in it because clearly they didn't all make it. But it's it's crazy to like think about that. And yeah, it's pretty sick. But little sidebar on that real quick, just because you brought it up.

It is a little not a little. It's a lot alarming to me that knowing that that wasn't that long ago, knowing that we have videotapes of the whole thing we had multiple countries find these camps where people were all this shit happened given all of that it's very scary to me that there are people who quite literally don't think it happened it blows my mind i don't even know how that could be a thing how do you how how can you like say that didn't happen i i don't know the internet's a weird place it really is especially like people have legitimate stories and and like how do you i don't know what the psychology is i i don't but you know i've posted a couple videos where

we talked about like the holocaust in here and you know i wasn't born yesterday i know that there's like some foreign country bots coming in there making comments no doubt just trying to like so discord i know that but it's not all of them it's not all i'll post a video that has a thousand comments on it saying like that didn't happen and i'm just like you know like who's who's raising you i don't know who raised you like what are you talking about i think it's so crazy to just be so blind to shit that goes on or that has gone on it's like no this is what happened or this is what's happening. Don't be ignorant and just like Understand what's actually factual and what's not like that's a fact. There's no way to like deny that it happened

That would be that would make too much sense though And I society there's gonna be some people oh And that the saddest part is not all of them are even like intellectually dumb people either that's the worst part it's not just like the absolute morons it's people who legitimately say something to themselves or see something that they want to believe repeated enough and enough and like convince themselves yeah they believe it that's true that's what it is that is definitely true but it's such a it's such a sad like i don't know it's so sad when people like try to say that something didn't happen whether it's about that or something else

like to devalue like something that's so important it's like what are you talking about yeah people say planes didn't go into the world trade center i mean yeah they'll say that and there's i don't know six thousand six million fucking angles and you can see a plane going in the building any way you want but that's what people do and so i'm like it blows my mind to even think like of someone um creating that sentence and saying it out loud well they do or saying it on a computer i'll show you some comments after yeah i would love to see you're like what exactly that's that's literally all i can do i'm just like like what people are not saying did you go to like i don't know what books have you been it's or no you're not reading but like what like they're reading something yeah but like what are you what like who are you looking up to or who are

you getting your information from it's just like well that's a problem across the board no matter what i mean we've talked about all day but you know specifically though on thinking about the holocaust being 75 years ago call it something like that it's like when i was bringing up the the greeks and the jewish community staying together so well to focus on the jewish community like you guys were almost exterminated not that long ago yeah so this is like thousands of years and things like that there's already this whole like tradition different battles that have happened over religion and thought and ideology for sure but this was you talk about the need to stick together to also hold that bond. I have so much respect for that because it is also literally born out of, like, an inherent genetic necessity.

You know, you pass that shit down. A hundred percent. I agree. Like, what I was saying before, I'm like, yeah, I come from a survivor. Like, I feel that for sure. You can't deny it. It's just in you because you have to be honest with who you are and like where you come from. And for me, I'm very proud to be Jewish. I love being Jewish.

I'm not religious anymore, but I don't care. I love being Jewish. And I have no, no problem with that. And I'm very proud to say like, I come from survivors. And like, that's just the truth. Do you think of it as because like you say, I love being Jewish, I'm not proud to say I come from survivors, and that's just the truth. Do you think of it as, because like you say, I love being Jewish, I'm not religious anymore, and I want to come back to, obviously, your childhood and all that, but do you think of it as identifying as an ethnicity or the religion itself? I'm always curious how people go about this. It's an interesting question because I feel like i've somewhat struggled with this forever because when i when i left like private school and started going to public school people would ask me like what are you i'm like i'm jewish they're like no what are you i'm jewish

yeah like no that's a religion what are you i'm like uh i'm like well okay my grandfather's from turkey and then so i'm like turkish hungarian so i've i've had that conversation so many times but to me i know there's so many different views on that and everyone has their opinion and that's fine and someone could say oh no this is a fact that's a fact but i don't know i i consider myself jewish like i feel like being jewish i'm part of something you know like the jews weren't almost exterminated because they were white or because they were it's because they were jewish so there was something that specifically set them apart from other people so me being jewish i'm

like i'm jewish right like i wear that proudly so i feel like everyone has a different uh opinion on that but i don't really care i'll be like i'm jewish right yeah like you're not going to tell me that oh well that's just a religion okay yeah it's a religion but like i also was raised in that religion and i was raised jewish so like that's it's like how are you going to tell me that like my most of my you know i mean until i stopped being religious it was like it was all about being jewish i'm jewish like that was what i knew so i'm jewish it's a culture on top of it exactly thank you that's the that's kind of the word i was looking for like it's culture it's a fucking culture like you're raised with like with something it's not just like judaism is like a whole thing there's a lot to it so it's not

very simple i feel like there's a lot that goes into it and i think it just again you know the holocaust didn't happen because we were just like people it happened because we were jewish yeah like that was why jews were taken is because they were jewish so if like you know see from the outside that's how i think of it you know and i'm not i'm not jewish so i i always ask it but i felt like i i had a feeling you were gonna give that answer but i felt like society or I feel like society, has had kind of that ignorance of, no, just, oh, religion. They try to take it away and say, no, it's not that.

It's just a religion. And you're like, no. It's more. It's more than that. It's a lifestyle. And it's like a culture. I mean, when people are putting putting in when people put out tweets describing people based on identity and stuff like that you know fighting over politics i see more and

more now you know they'll refer to someone who's very jewish as like oh that's like a cisgender white male or like oh that's that's a that's a heterosexual female or what you know when they're like trying to shut people down and i'm like yeah wait when did this see i feel like that's not what it is i feel like there wouldn't have been if this was just about religion that wouldn't have been like the thing and the reason that there was all this propaganda created where someone was able to make up the people that look different than you yeah are different therefore shouldn't be here because to me like it's fairly black and white in that way but i have heard people before kind of be like well it is i i look at it as more of a religion but it is they are my people they'll

say stuff like that so it's like that's kind of double speak to me like they like they do agree with what you're saying from that perspective, but they won't go all the way there. You know what I mean? Sometimes I guess maybe it's like where you come from or like how connected to it you are in a way. Like, I don't know. I mean, I'm never going to like say, oh, you're wrong for saying that

because I don't know. They could say I'm wrong, but from how i connect to it and from where i come from to me i'm like you're not gonna tell me otherwise like i'm jewish you know i'll be like oh yeah my grandfather came from here so i have this and this in my blood but like you know if you do like a a dna test or whatever there's a way to be told that you're jewish like you're ashkenazi or you're svardic or whatnot so it's like if i can be told that by looking at my blood then like how are you gonna tell me i'm not jewish exactly so i'm like i'm jewish and like i consider it you know yeah not just a religion but like a identity almost yeah you know like i don't just say like oh i'm jewish and that's it but like

that's a big part of who i am for sure so yeah so you have this bond with it but you quote-unquote left at least like the the sect s-e-c-t of i know jewishness that you grew up in so when like as a kid when you're little you don't know what the hell's going on you only know what's around you so when did you get old enough where you started to question some stuff and what made you question hmm i think so when i the first time i went to public school i think i was in like fifth grade was that you asking to go to public school i begged yeah but that was because like at that time i was still in private school you know, my parents got a divorce and things were kind of just like all over the place. And everyone was just kind of trying to figure it out, I guess.

So like I was saying before, my sisters, I feel like they got like more religious and they stayed where they were. And like some of my siblings are older than me. So some were like off in Israel or you know about to get married oh they went to some of them went to Israel yeah all of them did because it's it's a thing like after high school you go to Israel for a year it's called like seminary and then and then after to usually like you either come back or you stay there or you get married and whatnot but everyone was kind of yeah just trying to figure it out and my brothers were like like leaving the religion and very like you know just turned off by it how much older were they than you well so my oh i'm so bad i literally have

like an app on my phone for the ages of my siblings. I'm not kidding because my brother created it because nobody can remember anything. There's too many. But like my oldest brother is 37, 38. So we're all not. How old are you? And I'm 27. Wow.

Yeah. Like eight of us all in the span of like 10. Yeah. It's pretty crazy. I don't know. My my mom's like a mom's a trooper man she is a trooper for sure you would never know you'd look at you eight kids you're like what the damn yeah i know but so they were a little the older brothers were at least they were at least a little older they were older but so i have four brothers and then three sisters so two of my brothers are like right above me. So my brother David is like 20, 29. And then my brother Isaac is like 30. And then the ladder kind of keeps climbing. But they were clearly more around me because they were closer to my age so they started going to public school and kind of like leaving all of that and then I wanted to do it too but to be honest I had no idea what I wanted I didn't understand the difference to me it just seemed like I want to do that I never get to do that

or like it was like a I was seeing like a glimpse of a world that I've never really seen before like seeing them do things that I never got to do and I remember like Begging my mom like I want to go to public school like one of the last private schools. I was in I Like fought her every day. I was hardly there for that long because how many kids are in a school like that like in your class oh not that many i don't i can't say like how many for sure but maybe like i don't know but not not like hundreds definitely not it's it's much smaller and yeah but i was coming up with like everything that i could to be like i don't like it there i don't like this i don't like that because i just wanted to kind of like do what my brothers were doing or i wanted to go to public school too there's a question though like how did they it sounds like if i'm hearing this correctly

they at least were able to tell you what's going on in some ways because they got to go outside and they got to go to public school. But how did they figure out that there was another world out there too? That's a good question. I feel like I've never even asked them that. I think it was all my oldest brother, like, or eldest brother, he left when he was like around 18 or so. And he stopped being religious. So I think maybe it kind of like trickled down like, and then I don't know, I think it's one of those that it's very easy to get distracted in religion if if it's not done properly i feel like like i feel i don't know if that makes sense but i feel like if it's a healthy experience maybe you're more comfortable

with it but if if things are like kind of all over the place and it gets a little more confusing i think you start looking elsewhere or you start seeing other things and i'm not exactly sure what my brothers did but i think they were probably influenced by the older brothers too you know your parents got divorced though too and when was that how old were you i think i was like eight see i'm and i'm a little naive to this for sure but i'm almost surprised to hear that because at least like rule of thumb when you look at a lot of very deeply religious communities regardless what the religion is there's not a lot of that you don't hear about like a ton of divorces or something so was that not normal yeah i mean it was definitely like it's not very common i don't think but it happens i mean i think you know unfortunately maybe people stay in things longer than they should or maybe they stay because they don't think that they

can do it but yeah i don't there's definitely like a lot of rules to that too i think but and in this case i would say it was i feel like i'm somewhat of a messy divorce anyway so i think you know the i don't know i don't want to make it sound like bad because i feel like everyone's different but i feel like the community i came from was just i feel like everyone like knew everything and they were in everyone's like business so it was kind of like kind of like that you know like those things happen and then everyone knows and it's like everyone tries to like oh no and there's like pressure with it it's like everyone tries to like, oh no. And there's like pressure with it.

It's like you're going through it, but you're not going through it alone. You're going through it with like the whole community because like everyone like kind of knows what's happening, I feel like. It's in a weird way in the modern world. It's like old school tribes just because you're so focused on you literally all live in the same community in the same place you do everything together you go to the same places your kids all go to the same schools it's it's a real big throwback which is why it's so crazy for me to concept because i don't i don't know anything like that i remember my like when i was like i want to go to public school like i remember my mom like kind of fighting me on it at first because she was hesitant to do that because she knew that it would create like questioning or or like oh why'd you do

that you know and some of my brothers are already going to public school and so you know when you and then like people just like look at you differently not everyone but some people that's why i always say it's very like um it just really depends who you are as a person and who like what your values are and like how you feel some families will literally like pretend you don't exist anymore if you leave the religion and they stay in it you know well what's your relationship with your family like um i think we're all very um understanding of each other and i think we all are respectful of the path or the paths that like we've chosen because how many of you of your siblings and you left um

i have my three sisters who are still religious and i have 12 nieces and nephews between the three of them so like one's married and in south af. One's married and in Texas. Not the nieces and nephews. No, no, no, my sisters. It's like, damn. And then my brothers are not religious. And one of my brothers is married. But we're all very distant in a way.

Not only by how many miles. Yeah, by geography. But but also like yeah we're just like very different we're living very different lives but i definitely i've never been like i feel i just feel like we're all pretty accepting of where everyone is because we just even if maybe they think something deep down i don don't know, but they don't really say it. I respect how they choose to live, and I just always hope they respect how I choose to live, and for the most part, I think they do.

So I think everyone's pretty good about it, just allowing each other to just do what they need to do. I'm sure they don't agree with everything. I have tattoos. I'm not supposed to have tattoos so but whatever you went your own path too i mean you went outside of yeah we all go through shit you know so it's like i went through what i went through and i'm gonna do what i want to do and as like to me it's like as long as i'm a good person and i'm not like you know a burden to society then i would be like okay i'm fine don't worry about me when did you know you officially

like wanted to leave and go outside i think oh well that's kind of what i was saying is like i didn't really know what i wanted or what i was doing. I just like, I was just intrigued, you know? Like I saw like my brother's going to public school or like I saw them doing something different and like, I'm like, I want to do it too. So I think it was just like, and then once I did go to public school, that was really hard also

because that was like a huge culture shock. So that took a lot of like getting used to. So I think- Were you still wearing like traditional no clothing no when i went like they do when i went to public school i was i guess dressing more like not i'm not gonna say normal but like not not in the usual like skirt and all of that but yeah the school i was in before it was private and i'm like in a uniform and whatever and i think that school is when i really knew i wanted to

to leave because that was just like everything was just you know the divorce and whatnot and everything was changing and i wanted i felt like well why am i gonna stay here if everyone's leaving or doing these things? I want to do it too. What is out there? And I was also young. It's like a weird... Again, I don't know what I want.

Sometimes I look back on it and I am happy with how it all went in a sense. I'm not going to take it back. But there are some things I wish i i would have kept like i used to know how to like read in hebrew more and like all of that so i wish i could still do that oh you lost that yeah because you never for sure you never read it i mean i definitely like i don't know i could like read a bit you know i, I was in school, like with my little, my little book, like praying and stuff. So, but now it's like, I can, if I see like English Hebrew, I know, I understand like how it should sound, but you know, things like that, I've definitely like

lost some of that. And then like, even some details of like you know people ask me questions and i'm like uh let me double check that it's like i know but i i'm like that's why i was like go easy on me before because i know things but i also it's been so long that i've like been in it that i don't i don't want to like say the wrong thing but i just speak from my personal experience yeah i understand what you're saying about not really knowing and you just kind of you want to go to public school so you jumped in yeah but like once you go there to me when i look at things like this there's all different stories for people who leave some sort of organized religion or organized like close-knit community but one thing they all have in common

or most of them have in common is that once the step happens where you just say, oh, let me see what the grass is like over there real quick just to see what it looks like. It's done. Once you go there and you're like, well, wait a second. There's more freedom here. That's the nature of it. Whenever you're in some sort of like strict community or strict religion yeah there's rules as you've explained already in detail there's there's different cultural norms that you have to adhere to there's things that you have to do that everyone else in this society that's under in the same borders and everything does not so once you then go out and you're like

well wait a second these people live right down the street from me and they don't have to do this shit yeah you know it doesn't matter how different they look than you or how the same they looked from you they live in the same place exactly so you got to be like i think i want to do that again too i think i want to go i think i want to stay out here you know i don't hear a lot of people who and i'm sure there are but you don't hear a lot of people who go out and then like, yeah, I'm going to come back for good. You know? Yeah. And to be honest, that was a challenge within itself was to go out of it and then find like comfort in the outside world.

Because trust me, I had a lot of moments. People be like, why are you staring at me you're rude you know like because i'm i wasn't used to like socializing with people like that and i wasn't used to being like in school with i mean i had gone to private schools that did have like boys in it as well but like not in the way that like when you go to public school I remember going to public school and like like a kid like like a boy like asked me out and I was like what the fuck I don't know what to do you know what I mean and like or like they like touched my ponytail or something and I'm like don't touch me you know what I mean and you're like and then it's just it's weird because i think i'm just like chill in but then someone

will be like why you have an attitude and i'm like i do i have an attitude because you're not there's all these little teeny things like just behavioral just like social things that you're not really accustomed to and i'm also going to school now with like literally like every ethnicity you know what i mean yes and i'm like and i'm very grateful for that because i feel like i feel like i've always been more of like an old soul and open-minded but i feel like that's what's made me so open-minded is like being in all these different situations and like going from religion and private school. It's like a different life. And then going to public school and being exposed to like all these new cultures and languages. And you're like, oh, whoa whoa there's other people like me but

in different ways and then now you're like okay so how do I fit in but I feel like it was just a very interesting experience and I still to this day sometimes I'm like I'm like an awkward person I could be very awkward and I feel like I always blame it on that I'm like it's just. I could be very awkward. And I feel like I always blame it on that. I'm like, it's just, it's weird when you're raised one way in like this religion and you're very like bubbled in. And then you're like, now you're in the school, you're in public school and you're with like

all these different people. And like, they're all so different. And they're not afraid to say things. Like, why are you looking at me and you're like uh i'm my bad yeah you were taught that socially not that's not a thing there's no no like there's no back and forth like that at all no no i feel like honestly i feel like it's very common to go to where i'm from and someone stares at you. Like, trust me, it would happen.

Anyone would be like, oh, no, it's going to happen. If you walk, especially even me, if I walked into Muncie, like, I just know someone's going to stare at me. Like, who are you? Why are you here? And by the way, to be fair, it also, like, works both ways. When people drive through, like, an Orthodox Jewish community, they'll be like, oh, this is different. Yeah, exactly. You're like like it's a human thing you when you see something that is not your normal surrounding a lot of people don't mean anything by it some people are just obnoxious but like a lot of people are just like huh you know you want to take that in yeah i'm sure i'd

do it too like when i go through lakewood or something like that i'm like oh yeah i must be in lakewood right now yeah the interactions are so different yeah and you're like whoa it doesn't have to be and and again it is sometimes but it doesn't have to be a negative thing it's just as a human being you're a lot of people are pretty curious yeah okay it's it's like the it's like that innate genetic thing in us where it's like oh my surroundings are different let's let's take this all in that's yeah that's all it is but i in us where it's like, oh, my surroundings are different. Let's take this all in. That's all it is. But I'm just trying to think like from a behavioral standpoint, you know, you still grow up in a home with parents and siblings.

So you have all the normal. It's all normal human being shit. That's not the issue. You get used to the types of people around because they're all exactly like you. Then suddenly all the little things you take for granted, like facial cues even, or the way, obviously the way people talk and languages they use, duh. But, you know, the way that eye contact, stuff like that. There can be different feels of it. I have the worst. I'm getting, I've gotten better, but I had the worst eye contact my whole life.

Everyone's like, why are you looking at my hair? And I'll be like, I'm not. Because I couldn't look people in the eye, and I was just so like... Why do you think that was? I don't know. I just was never taught to look people in the eye, I feel like. Or it was just uncomfortable for me to like... Now I'm better. I'm like look people in the eye, I feel like, or it was just uncomfortable for me to like, you know, like now I'm better. I'm like, I'm looking at you in the eye.

But like for the longest time, I would, everyone would be like, why are you looking at my hair? Or I would just be like, if teachers would talk to me, like I wouldn't look at them really. I would just be like. Is some of that, I mean, what's the, here's something i really don't know a lot about like what's the what's it called oh my god i almost forgot the word what's like the gender structure in orthodox jewish communities like is it is it very male dominant or you know is there like a clear males are the alpha here females you can only do this this and this i feel like there's a little bit of that for sure i think yeah i mean i think you know the men are like you know they're supposed

to like go learn and be the man of the house and the women are like i mean but it's again i feel like it's so it really depends on the situation because not every religious household is going to be like a stay-at-home mom like there are a lot of parents who like both work and do things so it's really like and i feel like especially as the world turns and the years go by it's like things get more you know equal ish kind of not always but but again it's like I feel like I can't have a completely fair response to that because I just think everyone's so different that I don't want to like put anyone in a box and say like oh this is how they are but I do

feel like for the most part you know in like i guess really religious situations i feel like yeah men are kind of like like the men of the house they go they do the learning and like yeah i don't know and as a kid did you like did you watch tv did you have any access to that kind of stuff? No. Not really. No. Yeah, no. It was very, like there are a lot of times like people be like,

oh, you ever watch that? I'm like, no. They're like, what? I'm like, I didn't really watch like a lot of movies. You're talking about in public school now. No, this is like, people would ask you that.

Yeah, yeah. But I mean, I do remember like playing like Nintendo 64. So it I mean, I do remember, like, playing, like, Nintendo 64. So, it's like, we didn't have a lot of things, but it wasn't, like, there are some, like, households who have literally none of it. And it was, I feel like it was kind of, like, on and off. Like, I feel like there were times when there wasn't, like, a TV. And then I do remember, like, watching some things.

Like, I remember watching Friends one time the tv show friends yeah i think my sister was watching it or something and um so there definitely was a tv at one point but it wasn't like something that was very um important or something i feel like you know but we did have like a computer like there was something around but it wasn't it wasn't like access at least yeah but i i wasn't like on it all the time or something i was young and like what am i gonna do on the computer maybe play like dexter's labyrinth or something i remember doing that and like nintendo 64 and like that's it see like you even look at like the the extreme with electricity or stuff like that you look at like like the Amish. They, you know, they don't have any of that. But then what do a lot of them do?

They go and they work. They're like brilliant at like different trades, like carpentry and stuff like that. Or like they run delis and things like that. And they go work in the real world. So they're kids once they start taking them. Wendy's most important deal of the day has a fresh lineup. Pick any two breakfast items for $4.

New four-piece French toast sticks, bacon or sausage wrap, biscuit or English muffin sandwiches, small hot coffee, and more. Limited time only at participating Wendy's Taxes Extra. The work are like just dragging them along with them. They see that, you know? So it's just that I have to ask that question because I'm like, well, we're young enough that we grew up in a world where there was the mass access to media. Like even in the earlier days of the internet in the early 2000s and mid-2000s, there's still a lot of information.

Obviously, TVs are everywhere. So it's like you know there's other stuff out there without going to public school. But it's kind of different when – and I don't know because i didn't do it but it's got to be different i should say when you're just looking at it like on a screen versus when you're actually you're there you know yeah and i feel like there just wasn't like a big emphasis on technology i guess so like there was a tv around but you know i didn't like grow up up with my mom handing me a... To keep me busy, handing me an iPad or like, oh, just watch this cartoon.

That definitely, I don't have a recollection of that. Which actually isn't a bad thing, by the way. Yeah, exactly. I think there's like a balance to it. But, you know, like i i'm not gonna say oh i never watched tv or so i did but i just didn't see i definitely didn't see a lot of the things that other people grew up on like i i have this conversation a lot sometimes with people they're like oh my god but you've seen this movie and i'm like like you've never seen that i'm like no i'm like mom they're like what happened every kid watches that and i'm like i don't know i wasn't doing it yeah i was like i didn't see it

because it also sometimes depends like what would be like appropriate you know for that um like even the fact that i saw friends like that must that probably was more towards the time where things were getting like you know we're changing a little bit but it would have to like yeah be like appropriate for i guess now i had been i had been asking something maybe like 20 minutes ago and i didn't ask it clear enough because then you started explaining something i got a little more curious about but i want to go back to it because when i was saying when did you know you wanted to leave or whatever and you were going well i didn't i just kind of fell into public school i wanted to go there and then yeah whatever what i should have asked was once that happened and you were already there like was there a time you're i don't know three years in you're 15 and you're like you know i definitely want to go do this whole college

thing i i want to maybe live in new york city or whatever you know i want to be outside of this what do you do you remember a moment where that was like boom lightning bulb let's or light bulb let's do it not i don't know not really i feel like i just kept going with the flow like i feel like once i just went to public school i just didn't look back it was kind of one of those i was like if i do this that's it you blend it into it because it's one of those like i've been asked before i think like oh would you ever be religious again and stuff and i'm like what is really that's the thing though what is religious just like following all the but yeah and all of the orthodox things you're saying yeah like all the different like oh like just

being kosher and like follow i mean it's hard to really put it into one thing because there's a lot like what is what is being religious there's so many different things that that that entails but like for me i would always say like well i i just want to do things on like my own term on my own terms and like in my own way be more spiritual and like i would love to add things into my life but i wouldn't necessarily like go backwards and like go full-blown like this just wouldn't work for me like i'm you know once i so i feel like to answer your question it was kind of like it just happened naturally like it just was like pretty like quick i just like adapted or started to adapt and then once i was just in these schools

and making friends or getting used to it and how hard was that at first, like making new friends? I feel like it was pretty, it was weird. Yeah, it was definitely weird. But I think the one thing that really helped me was that the schools or the school I was in, because I did change schools a lot. I moved around quite a bit. But especially where I started off, like in public school,

I feel like I felt pretty weird. Like I felt like I was so different. Yeah. But then a lot of people I went to school with felt like they were really different. Because there were a lot of kids who were in ESL or people who were you know esl um english second language yeah oh it's like when you can't really or when you're it's

not your first language and so i feel like a lot of people felt out of place not just me so i feel like that helped me gain like friends yeah other people understood you yeah yeah because there was just so much culture flowing throughout the school that it was like i feel like i was i feel like i was always like one of like two jews or one of three jews or something but i think for other people it was almost like oh cool you're jewish're Jewish. It was just like I felt accepted because everyone else was so different in their own way, especially to me. I was like, oh, now I have a good friend and she's Indian and now my best friends are Filipino and now my other friend is Haitian and she's speaking Creole and like there's just like so much going on that I feel like it ended up being more comforting it was weird but it like

worked out did you have any friends like from your Orthodox community who ended up being able to go to public school as well yes and did some of them so some of them left too mm-hmm yeah they did yeah everyone has kind of like i know some people who are like still doing their thing some people you know i have friend friends who are like married now and have like a baby i have like other friends who are like in israel and they're getting married but they're not like religious but you know so it's everyone kind of did their own thing but they also not all of them but i know some who like went to public school and and did that too so i wasn't the only one and that's also kind of cool because when

you do you're not like alone in that either there are are other people who it doesn't, they don't stick with it either. So it's like we have an understanding with each other in a way. Like we know where we come from. Yeah. And it's a shared experience that also happened on, I don't want to say on your terms,

but it sounds like you had really solid parents who you wanted to go to public school, took a little bit of asking, but then you went. And then you got to see this world. And now, you know, you have eight siblings. Different people made different decisions as far as in or out. Everyone seems to get along pretty well. I mean, ideally, this is like the exact kind of story you want to hear. You hear the other kinds of stories from different religions where it's not like that and you alluded to certain people who they'll turn your back on they'll turn their back on their kids or something

if they leave so at least you didn't you didn't deal with any of that i think that's like a a real positive just because you know again i don't i don't think it's good to tell anyone what to do no i just think that in the modern world it's a little what's what's the word i should use here like it kind of goes against the grain for no reason to create a ton of rules on people as individuals to adhere to just so they can stay in the smallest community like there's a huge difference in my opinion of having a strong cultural bond that you do not lose and you have traditions and you follow them versus it consuming your life yeah i mean if you are looking to search the web privately and not have all these websites Yeah, I mean... PN out there because you will not even notice it's on. You can use whatever servers they have.

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I always say that religion can be a beautiful thing. I just think it's about balance. And coming from where I come from, I've seen both sides. Right. I've seen what it's like to be really religious. I still see what it's like to be religious because it's still a part of me because some of my family still is. And I see what it's like to not be. And I've seen what it can do and how it can, like, tear people apart and how it can cause friction and, like, how it can create distance, you know?

So it's, and it can be, like, pretty sad in that way where you're like, it really shouldn't matter. It shouldn't matter. And that is, unfortunately unfortunately something that exists like there are people who will disown like their children or something or their family because they don't live the way that they wanted them to or that they raised them to or some something or there's people this is we've seen this movie a million times over history, who fight each other because they believe different things. Yeah, exactly. And then, oh my God, that shit pisses me off.

It's just like, oh my God, can everyone shut up? It's nuts. You know what I mean? It's nuts when you think about it. Just be happy, you know, believe what you believe and move on. Like, why do I need to believe what you believe? Again, if I'm not hurting anybody, right? And I'm not being dishonest and I'm not being a bad person, then why should it matter?

If you want to help someone, if you have a problem with someone who's a dangerous person on the loose and killing people, i totally understand that different but like still then don't try and convert them just like you know what i mean like figure out how to help them like it's why it's i don't know like and i've i've had situations before too where it's like even within within my within the jewish community it's like people can judge one another oh you're not religious enough oh you're less religious than me oh i'm more religious like there can be that too

so it's like it's like confusing to you're like why don't why don't you just accept people for who they are and just like allow people to to live like on their own terms you know and just be happy with it and don't worry like stop worrying about it like it should be simple it should be for yourself like whatever you believe or religion or whatever you want to do that should be for you what you're saying makes too much sense that's the problem i know there's too many people who it can't be that simple i've literally had someone try to i'm not gonna like go into too much details because i don't want to like put anyone on blast but if they know who i'm talking about and they ever see

this well oops but you know i've literally had a situation where someone like invited me to go get like coffee or something and i thought they were like my friend and then they tried to like legit like convert me to like christianity or something i was like what the fuck i'm like you sat down for coffee and they went to the love and power to be more specific it was a smoothie it was a smoothie yeah they started like explaining like you know maybe they were jehovah's witness i don't know yeah no no something like that and they started like explaining all this stuff and like telling me like you know i should do this and then i'm like you know i'm jewish right like what the fuck like when did i ever give you the the idea that i wanted like i felt like they looked at me and

thought like oh she's lost she needs help that's the problem and i was like that's the problem right there i thought we were friends i was just coming here to get a smoothie yeah like i don't want to i i'm good if you were out there and you were you were wild you were committing crimes or like i'd chosen some kind of crazy life and someone wanted to use that as part of a conversion mechanism okay i guess i got an argument but like my whole thing is like all right great like jehovah's witness for example glad you believe some of the stuff that's awesome good for you good for you right it's like leave me alone don't come knock on my door about it yeah like get the out of here good for you like who are you trying to i just i don't know it's like

i feel like uh i don't know it's just like, I feel like, I don't know. It's just like all about balance. I just don't think it's, it should just be for yourself. If you're going to do it and you love it and you love living the way you live, then go find the people who live the way you live and just love on each other and be happy. But if you come across someone who's not like you just appreciate them for who they are respect it and move on like no one needs to not everyone needs to be like you and i think that's where like a lot of issues stem from is because people have this like strong belief like no

i need to change them no they're living the wrong way this isn't right this isn't what god would want it's like um i think i think i don't know which god you're talking to but like the one i would talk to i feel like if i talked to him her whoever i feel like that god would be like just be happy and do your thing and like be nice to people and accept people for who they are because isn't that like the main thing like just acceptance like isn't that what we're all striving for supposed to be supposed to be it should be it should be i feel like that's our biggest problem is that people just don't accept people for who they are and they keep trying to change people and change things and it's like stop trying to change things just accept it the wildest part of it when you're talking about and we can talk about that psychology in a few

different lenses unless it really needs to change i just want to make that effect like if someone's like a criminal like criminal rude ignorant or like agreed racist whatever yeah you should change you should you should not be like that but yeah And also, you don't have to do it. You don't have to do it behind the guise of like a religion or something. Yeah. Like, you look at it. This is, if we're talking about it under the realm of religion, there's what, seven and a half billion people in the world, something like that.

There's been over a billion for years and years and years. A lot of people. There's been a lot of people for a long time regardless of what that number is everyone who's in these different groups fighting over their beliefs has one thing in common nobody knows the answer we are we're all fighting over something that is strictly this peace within people this is the positive of how religion is supposed to be used it's a peace within you to try to explain the meaning of life so that it makes sense to you while you're here on this journey so that there's something that you can hold on to

some faith for that afterwards you'd be a good person you do your thing something good's gonna happen to you i don't care if it's what this religion says or that religion says or that religion over there frankly a lot of them probably don't have any proof of it we don't really know like you know it's gonna be a simulation for all we know but it's true at the end of the day like it should be that way that you find peace in yourself and if you have it like in in a perfect society if you have people around you or there are other people in the world who happen to think along this a similar line in that search for meaning then great form a community around it yeah just don't let that as it gets

bigger by size of population don't let that become a thing though that then and this is my opinion but you know where it becomes larger than that and now it's no no no we have to get everyone under this umbrella and we're going to use social pressures to do it because that's how that's how people who are i keep on forgetting words today i'm having a bad day with words. But people who are like, not grandstanders, opportunists, right? Grifters. Grifters, that's the word I wanted. When grifters see situations like that,

they can seize it. And I'm not saying like all these people coming out and saying convert to religion X or grifters. They're not. I understand that. But I'm saying like, some of them are just willfully a little bit blind to well what does the person across from me want forget what they're

let's say they're doing something wrong in their life right now forget what they're doing wrong if they could be a good person they want to be a good person most 99.999 percent of people want to be a good person yeah what what would they want not what i want i'm supposed to help you and accept you because that's what my religion teaches what do they want yeah because they don't know about you exactly like what who made you god or whatever you think is like what i don't know you know it's like i think having different beliefs is like what makes the world go around clearly you know like if there was no good you wouldn't know what good is if there's no bad you wouldn't know what bad is you wouldn't know the difference if there's no bad you don't know what good is if there's no good you don't know what bad is i think i said that wrong the first time but you get what i'm saying so it's

like there has to there has to be differences there has to be bad people so that you can understand what it means to be a good person right there has to be bad people so that you can understand what it means to be a good person. Right. There has to be people who are atheists because, like, that's just what they want to feel. And, like, those differences are what, you know, spark conversation. Yes. And, like, make people, like, really, like, it's like instead of judging someone someone why don't you just try to understand them and say like why do you think that way or what makes you feel that way and then you you

never know what they're gonna say and you'll be like okay and whether you you agree or not who cares just respect it and move on i think it's just yeah it's just very like self, selfish and like annoying to think that people should be like you in every way. I mean, like, I wish everyone would just be like cool and chill, but I don't really, I don't, I don't care what religion you are or what. I don't, I don't care. Like, I don't care care just be a good person like because you also have the perspective too yeah like you you found your own way and like it all worked out too in a lot of ways you know like you're and you have a family and like we already said like that oh Oh, sexual orientation. That's what I was trying to say.

Like religion, sexual orientation, race, whatever. I don't care who you are. Just, I mean, I care in the sense of like, I appreciate who you are and like where you come from. But I don't care how you want to live. As long as it makes you happy and you're not hurting anybody. And I actually, and part of me wants to believe this but i also think it's it's true most people take away their phone take away the internet take away whatever they yell out there most people would agree with that they don't really care like when some of

these people tweet out at certain groups or whatever that they disagree with they don't really care about those people if they cross them in the street they're not really gonna care that like yeah you know i'm wearing a t-shirt and you're wearing a jacket yeah that's not a real example but you know what i mean they don't really care but now especially like with the internet everything becomes a group everything becomes a religion so they want to go, fuck you, I don't like what you do, die, right? Yeah. Not really. And everyone's very, very, very,

very brave behind a keyboard. Yes. Yes, they are. They're like, hey. Exactly. And so I think... It's like little 10-year-olds

or like, you never even know who's writing it. Most people don't even have like a legitimate profile. It's like trolls or whatever you call it. It could be an old person. It could be a young person. It could be anyone just wanting to bring someone down

or just wanting to be mean or just... Yeah, or wanting to just... They can't help themselves. They just want to blurt out how they feel at all times. And it's from a place of them being upset with themselves about things it's all from a place of insecurity but i think the reason over the past few years i've gotten so much more curious about religion and and how organized religion has changed over time and like studying it is because i feel like we have replaced religion in other things in society right obviously some of these things still remain you see organized religions not doing the Like we have replaced religion in other things in society, right?

Obviously, some of these things still remain. You see organized religions not doing the best things around the world sometimes. They seem to do good things too. But you see in like politics, you have these two wild sides that have these opinions and the divide keeps going farther and farther. And I find it incredibly difficult to have a conversation with people who are very, very hardcore, like very hardcore one way or the other. And it just gets harder every single day. And it's because it's taken on – it's far past this point. It's taken on the worst that religion could offer, right, when it gets culty, when it gets completely close-minded, obviously, when it gets to a point where it's all about what the mob around you says and,

oh, that's what we think? Yeah, let's do it, you know? And if you look at like even the top of our society, look at the White House. What have, in my lifetime, what have we done? Left, right, left, right, left, right, left, right. And it just just gets worse and more you get like crazier and crazier as you go you know and now we're now we're at the point we are now we just had a celebrity in office before this you know so like people that doesn't show you that people can can just like form a crowd and suddenly be like fuck yeah yeah i mean i don't know what will we're living in the world of internet and social media. And it's like everything is just literally at your fingertips at all times. And it's just a lot of it is literally meant to make you feel a certain way.

Like that's what they want. That's what. Detect not like the things you see yeah a hundred percent it's like being thrown in your face constantly it's like creating fear and like anxiety and like and if you're not aware enough like you start to live yes in that in that like mindset of like being scared of everything and i mean think about it like you open or how many times you watch the news and really hear something good never like hardly ever and then even on social media it's like yeah you could see like funny things and good things but

then you're also bombarded with like all this shit that's going on and it's and in a way it's like it makes you think that everything is so bad but really it is a lot of things are like kind of out of hand in a way but i feel like they've always been out of hand and it's just now we're just seeing everything so quickly and from everywhere like you can see everything it doesn't matter what country you're you want to look at it's gonna be there and it's like you know what happened in australia the other day or or in or in italy or here it's like everything is at your fingertips and you're just like and then of course it's like when you see that all the time like think about even the pandemic like that mentally like that that was crazy oh good it's like one of the most unnatural things ever it's just it's crazy you know you society adapts to things

arguably faster than ever now for better or worse strictly because of the mass communication which can also show whatever you want you know i'm sitting here and i don't watch the news you came in here today the news was on the news was on two different tvs in here the one upstairs here on cnn the one downstairs on fox news yeah because you're going to get loony from both ends and try to find the truth in the middle and the saddest part is and that's only because there's like an invasion going on so i have it on the tv just yeah of course they're yeah because like let me like clarify that there are very important things that go on like it's not just like being bombarded with like bullshit like they're everything is important you know and and especially something like right now like yeah that's very scary and

and you should be aware so there are things that you should definitely be aware of but i just mean and like you know when you put it all together yes like a lot but my issue is that even looking at all of it and having all the information the saddest part to me is that again i do do this on the internet every day if i don't watch the news i'm on the internet i see what's going on my first question with everything is well okay is this is this real yeah like you know people can make look look very very take things out of context all the time i saw there was a video going around yesterday of a heartbreaking video of a father in ukraine kissing his little daughter like two-year-old who's leaving on a train with her mom to go away and he's staying back because he's gonna fight and when i was

watching this video i watched it like four times and it may very well it may very well be exactly what they say it is but people are sharing this like crazy i see all different pages putting it out there like big pages and i'm looking at it and i'm like how sad is it that i'm genuinely wondering if this video is from yesterday like who put this there where did this start is this is this some sort of like who who would want to do this why what are what motives be? And I don't think you're wrong for having that doubt sometimes. Because some people will be like, what do you mean? Of course it's real. Like, yes, we're not saying it's not.

But there definitely is a lot of, you know, a lot of times I feel like we're being a little tricked. And not always, clearly. But I definitely hear you having that those moments where you're like is this really how it happened is this really what's happening because there are just a lot of situations where the the full story is not being told and people are not saying everything and they want they want one thing to look a certain way and then there's a lot of misinformation yes i mean you you talk to like different people and someone was like oh yeah

well it's their fault no it's their fault no this is what happened no this is what happened you're like well what the fuck happened what was happening and that means like where do you even start yeah it's scary but i mean that sounds really sad that sounds like a very sad video and i i don't know it's and and again that could that could be a hundred percent real no of course but i'm just it's sad that i got it i'm saying it's sad i gotta it is sad we shouldn't have to think like that we should just see things and trust it and be like damn that's heartbreaking but there are definitely times where things have happened and then you see another article that's like that video was from four years ago and you're like oh yeah i've been by that before i've been

like yeah i think we all have yeah god damn it i was like telling people about that one you know because there's so many different um platforms that post and you know it's fast it's very fast all the time oh my god like sometimes i can't even go on instagram when certain things are going on because it's like it's too much it's a lot yeah you know you see like wars break out rarely but when they do it's like whoa obviously yeah i haven't had it and not to say there aren't wars that happen every day around the world there are but i'm saying like on a massive scale like in and it's scary though and that and so it's like yeah i think be aware and be educated but that's it's scary i don't know and i i think that's why it's like a blessing and

a curse it's like good to have everything at your fingertips so you know what's going on and you can be aware. But it just can be bad because it just can be very mentally exhausting or brainwashing depending on what information is being put out there. And I'm not just talking about what's happening right now. I'm just saying in general, as a whole like there's just a lot that's always both yeah my opinion yeah it's exhausting and brainwashing yeah everyone technically all three of us included by the way

we're gonna hear from you soon yeah there is we're gonna get there i just this is like so tight back here and you got the guitar and everything. So the whole time. As long as I got my friend, we're good. Yeah, you're chilling. All right. Real trooper. But yeah, like all of us to an extent, to some extent, maybe it's smaller.

Maybe we're people that look at this the right way and like sift through information. I know I did data on my feed. My data is like 70% liberal, 30% conservative. And I think it's closer to 50-50 because I think. You can do that? Yeah, there was like a thing I did, like some weird like data thing like two months ago because I was curious. Some of my liberal, like 70%, I know have to be like some libertarians who have some conservative leanings. So it's like, all right, well right well i gotta call it closer to 50 50

ish feed you can't tell me that within that though there's not all kinds of like either straight up misinformation or people who are running away with opinions which then turns into misinformation or contradictory points that when i'm just reading through throughout the day i missed it like oh i took this one in at eight o'clock from this person and then took this point in at 11 o'clock from this person and never even put two and two together that those are literally the the opposite ideas or like a different way of explaining something that happened so neither of them are true or only one of them you know what i mean yeah it's really confusing this is every day every day every single day every day all the time that's why it's it's

like and now imagine human history like let's take it back to what we're talking about like with religion we're all going off of shit that like people wrote down 5 000 years ago 2 000 years ago whatever you know think about all the all the generations that had to go through like stories change things change who knows who saw what or when. So like to me, a part of it should just be like as a person, when you have a relationship with like a higher power or something like that, it's more just your peace and faith like of something greater than you. It's not so much like I am certain.

This is exactly every single thing that's going to happen. When I die, I go to this floor on the building and report to God why. so much like i am certain this is exactly every single thing that's going to happen when i die i go to this floor on on on the building and report to god why you know it's not that's not that's not what it is yeah it's it's a very strange thing it is very strange i yeah i think everyone should just you know you know make sure that their mental is in check and try to be as at peace with themselves as they can be and then just you know be good to others and be kind and just like try to be open-minded and not be judgmental and then like and then i feel like that's like the best thing you can do. I think you just solve world peace.

Like, I don't know. I just feel like that's like the best thing you can do. And because there's it's never going to end. Do you know what I mean? Like, it's never going to end as much as like all these things that happen. You're like, what the fuck? Like, even in the city, like, you know, when I hear about all the subway attacks, like that shit scares the fuck out of me because I'm. Has that been happening a lot recently?

I mean, I've I've just seen it everywhere. Have you have you seen it everywhere because i've seen it oh maybe it's just on my on my feeder i don't know that's the thing too that the phones and these things like literally like hear what you're saying and then they're giving you ads and they're giving you information based on like what you're talking about as you sing down in the subway too so you're saying to people like oh i'm going to the subway yeah whatever today i see your phone here is that goes oh send her subway content so i'm hearing a lot about that like there's definitely been a lot of stuff going on there but i'm i'm sure there's always stuff going on but of course with social media it's like you're hearing it a lot more and i do think that there is a problem for sure i mean there i've just heard of a lot

of like subway attacks and certain things happening it's very sad and scary but even for me it's like you know that i sing there and i but i'm not gonna like stop living my life right because i don't know it's like anywhere it can be scary and it's just just try and be aware be careful and like i don't know it's just never gonna stop you know what i mean like and you're always trying to get more good to win out which over human history that does happen yeah look at every single statistic i always tell people about uh dr stephen pinker's book enlightenment now where he lists out statistically everything from like world hunger to homelessness to across the spectrum, war, all these numbers over time. And you can see, yeah, you have like a bad thing happen and something spikes for a day.

But over time, the numbers all go down or up depending what's supposed to be positive in whatever scenario it is. You just can't control life. You can't. But even though it gets better better you still have that bad like you said it so well like 15 minutes ago or something like that where you were talking about in order to in order to know what good is you have to know what bad is in order to know what bad is you have to know what good is yeah and like if if life were just all if everyone was the same if it was all the same then what's the point like That'd be weird.

Yeah. So it's not like we sit here and say, well, that means that everything bad that happened needed to happen, right? Like, if we could go back and change things in history. Like, if you could go back and stop the Holocaust, we're doing it, right? Yeah. But there's things... But then... Then it happened.

Yeah, exactly. So now what do we get from that? What are the positives that come after the fact? I was born. Yeah. Okay. That's a simple one, but that's it. I'm kidding.

But yeah, of course, if you could change things that happen, 100% you would want to. You'd be like, oh, that's terrible that people went through that. And there are so many things you see. You're like, I want to change that. But at the end of the day, you can't. You know, what's happened has happened. And by whatever, by it happening, it creates all new stuff.

And if it didn't happen, this is not the world we'd be living in. And you don't know what would be different. It could be worse. It could be't know what would be different it could be worse it could be better it could be the same right it's like who says that changing one thing is gonna like change everything i just don't know yeah you like but it's it's interesting to like think about those kind of things like what what if the what ifs are tough yeah but then it's almost like no reason to think about it because you're like oh well we're never going to change it can't go back in time and if we could i want to know how because that'd be cool just to like

well i don't i wouldn't want to go back to certain things because i feel like that's i don't know there's a lot of crazy goes on. If you go back and change stuff, though, that's where it gets weird. But then the crazy thing is, like, by changing one thing, you change everything. Yes, the butterfly effect. You change everything. Are you born...

Every decision, like, brings you to the next thing. And it changes everything. Like, every decision. If you don't do thing. And it changes everything, like every decision. If you don't do one thing, everything changes. Literally, it could be the smallest thing. It could be like the coffee shop you went to. You know what I mean? I'm just thinking specifically of my boyfriend.

I met him in the subways singing. And I think about if I did not wake up that day, and not even that, because I woke up, I went to the subways. But like, when I was there, all this different stuff happened. Like, when I got there, the spot I wanted was taken by this guy who was like, always there. So I went to a different spot. I sang at that spot for a little and then I was like, I don't want to be here anymore. I'm not feeling it. And I literally stopped mid song, which I never do. And I was like I don't want to be here anymore I'm not feeling it and I literally stopped mid song which I never do and I was just like something in me was just like stop and I stopped and I packed up and I left and I was like all right I'm gonna go to a different spot and then I like left this I left I filled my metro card I walked back. I was going to go to like 34th street. I was at 42nd.

And then I'm talking to my friend and I'm like, you ever have Gregory's? And he's like, no. I was like, oh my God, we have to go there. Turned around, walked back. The guy that was in the spot that I wanted had never done this before. Literally called me over and was like, hey, I'm leaving in like 30 minutes or something so if you want the spot i was like yes i'll be here don't give it to anyone else so i went i got like food came back right away he left the spot i took the spot and then like literally like 10 minutes 15 minutes in i don't even know well my now boyfriend walks up but you know what i mean it's like when i think of that day i think of all the different things that

happened that led me to that exact spot at that exact moment if i would have ignored you know my intuition to stop at the other spot. And I just kept going. Then I wouldn't have, I wouldn't have walked out. And then if I, if I didn't decide like, oh, let's get food, I wouldn't have walked back. And the guy would have never said to me like, hey, I'm leaving. And he's never done that before. And then he gave me the spot. So it was like, that's why I guess it just made me think of that

because to me that was like a whoa, like everything would have been so much different. My whole life would be different because like my whole life changed. You know what I mean? Like we've been together for like almost a year now. So it's like everything changes when you meet people, especially when they become like your boyfriend or girlfriend you know yeah but i think about that when we were saying that because one thing like even the timing if i went at a different time if i everything would have been different if i never met him that day maybe i would have met him another day but like everything would have been different so it's all it's just interesting how like we are constantly like creating our story and you don't even know

i've heard a number somewhere in the neighborhood shout out to lucas shout out lucas i've heard a number somewhere in the neighborhood i'm gonna get the exact one wrong but it's something like four trillion it's one in four trillion that you're gonna be born like the probability that you are gonna happen like the right is going to meet the right part of the egg, whatever, like that whole thing goes down. Then think about that on a daily basis once your life happens. 30 and 50 000 times a day you make some sort of decision down to a micro decision which i think qualifies even for like do i decide that i'm gonna say something right now like when we're just in the middle of a conversation that's a decision you know like little things like that so many thoughts going on at all times think about all those times throughout the day and how they all

this is why people talk about habits how they all build upon each other and formulate like the overall painting of what your day became every single day that happens so you talk about like your boyfriend right now and how that all those things had to line up like how many different decisions just right there within the big decisions you talked about like leaving the restaurant what time do i want that spot oh i'll come back for that spot deciding like oh i'll walk there at this pace instead of that pace all led to that and then throughout your life every relationship every friendship you've ever had same thing yeah think about your best friends what if like what if like your mom didn't say like oh go

play with so-and-so right now it never happens you know it's a wild wild thing how different life could be yeah and it's interesting because i was just thinking how like that day when i decided oh let's go get food and we walked back the reason he called me over in the first place was like because i literally said to my friend i I was like, you know what? I'm just going to stand here and watch him for a few minutes. Because I felt almost like I want this spot. And I was like, I'm just going to watch him. And I stopped to watch him.

If I didn't stop, he wouldn't have called me over. So it's like, I just thought of that too. It's like every decision is just, I don't know, just trust your gut. You know? Yeah. or follow your your intuition if if you're if you're like i just need to be here a little longer yeah then stay if you're like i need to sleep a little longer sleep like just trust yourself i think that's like an important thing but it's true you never know how you're going to meet people or what's going to happen. You just... You never know what... It's not that you never know.

You can tell when you're doing things, at least in your gut. You can tell when you're enabling negative things. Oh, yeah. You can't... That's true. You can't then... I'm going to make up a word. Misacquaint that.

What's it like? Falsely equate that? Is that right? Poorly compute. See, that's way smarter than I was going for. Thank you. You can't poorly compute something like that. I know.

I can tell this guy's a rocket scientist. I know. But you can't get that wrong in your head. I don't want to lose my train of thought. But enabling something versus being afraid to make a mistake is just they're two very very different things and i think sometimes people will try to do everything so right that they don't try anything at all yes you know i would agree with that be like thing I always say is like, you have to be uncomfortable to grow. Yes.

Like you need to be uncomfortable. If you're always comfortable, then it's not good. You need to make yourself uncomfortable. And of course, I mean that in like a very, like I'm not saying like put yourself in dangerous, uncomfortable situations. Cause like, again, for the the most part we know what's right and what's wrong like there are some things where you're like yes don't do that but i mean like

in a very like motivating way like for example like me singing in the subways would someone consider that the most comfortable thing no you know but it's like you have to be uncomfortable to grow and like i don't really find it that uncomfortable but i've also been doing it enough that like i'm just used to it but someone else would be like oh my god that's so uncomfortable like i'm scared like that's scary well yeah okay you should be a little scared i mean bring someone with you don't be like don't be unaware of your surroundings and don't think that you're like invincible. Like be careful with the things you do and be mindful.

But like, yeah, I think that you have to be, you have to do things that you're scared of and you have to be a little uncomfortable in order to grow and like learn and be like, no, maybe it was a mistake, but well, it led to something else or i learned this i learned that like you have to start somewhere to learn yeah completely agree but let's let's start talking about the singing because we've been we've been referring back to

it we talked about at the very beginning and i found you before you ever even got connected with me which was cool but when did you start singing at all I mean is this something were you doing it growing up in an orthodox Jewish household and you could always do it or was it like you kind of discovered it after you started going to public school and other people would sing and you tried doing it um i've been doing it forever just in different ways so like ever since i i was a kid i was singing or humming or like very musical i always just like loved to sing so that that was very natural and very much a part of me um i didn't really perform when i was younger growing up religious and everything um it wasn't something that i did that i really like nourished i guess but it was something that i could always do

like i'd be at like my friend's house and i'd be like just singing and like having fun but i didn't i didn't understand like what i was doing if that makes sense i just love to do it it wasn't until i you know started to get older and then my brother is a singer as well and he plays guitar and he's a songwriter so he started really like bringing me along in certain situations like he'll be like i'm doing this you're gonna come sing with me and so then i started like singing with him like my first performance actually was when i was like about 11 or 12 at my cousin's bar mitzvah and someone i think it was probably my brothers like told the dj like you you have to let her sing she can sing like let her sing and i was like so little and like i was just like but i i really i always had this no fear mentality kind

of thing i think where if someone like asked me to sing i'm like okay i'm good sure i didn't i don't understand so i'm like all right and then that was my first like real like public performance i guess i just sang acapella like i just stood there and sang alicia key's fallen so what kind of music did you have like access to growing up did you listen like all the same things that were on the radio or like um not really but once i did start listening to things it it stayed in my mind very quickly i learned very quick so like once like my brothers started you know listening to different music i feel like they really exposed me to a lot of things like rap and disturbed and like remstein like all these different you know and um what oh my god what's his name i just forgot i just forgot the name of the person i was thinking of but that's fine but yeah eminem not

eminem wasn't the one i forgot but eminem and i remember i was obsessed with christina aguilera like i started my mom started like she gone i love her my first email was mini aguilera 05 all right so just that'll tell you that much fangirl i loved her but it was more because i like really i loved singing her stuff and she i would literally like imitate everything she would do i would do like her background and her melody like like do everything all at once and um so i i think at first i there wasn't that much music it was more like just like jewish music as far as i can remember but once things kind of started to change there was more like my mom is the one i think the one that like played christina aguilara i remember she was playing like the stripped album yeah

and like it just and alicia keys like that was like some of the first um or yeah some of the first people that i really like took to is like alicia keys christina aguilera who else i don't know those were definitely like the top two for sure that i started hearing and then just like singing because like my videos from when i was younger be like me singing alicia keys or like senegular or even whitney houston and stuff like that legend it's her up there i know i love that picture a lot of people don't know that's her when they first look because she's such she's so young. Well, I looked at it and I was like, that has to be Whitney.

But I didn't say anything. So I was right. You were right. I was right. But it's amazing how like, so you were singing like just kind of like Jewish songs and sing-alongs growing up. And then you get shown music and you connect with it right away. Yeah. And I'm not going to say I never heard anything that was like non-Jewish i just i really can't i i don't remember that clearly but i i do know that i didn't start like really singing out or or singing that kind of stuff until like

once i was like in public school or or like you know things were kind of changing but that was my first uh performance was at my cousin's bar mitzvah and i sang acapella i just sang alicia key's fallen and you were already in public school at that point yeah i was in public school how old were you again i was like 12 12 no when you went to public school sorry oh how old are you in fourth or fifth grade oh yeah so maybe i was like nine or ten. So, yeah, that's the other thing. Like I left pretty early on in my life. But, I mean, I still like clearly remember things.

And it's still enough for me to like understand the difference. But there was definitely like a shift like at like 10 or 11 or something around that yeah when you went out into public school yeah and things yeah and then so that was like my first performance and then my brother definitely started to give me more work i'll put it that way you know he was always writing and he'd be like come we're gonna perform here we're gonna do this you're doing the talent show with me and like he would make me like we wouldn't like i won't say he would make me it's not like you'd like force me but of course i would have my moments like oh and he's like no you're gonna do this and then we would he would make me

practice with him a lot so i definitely give him a lot of props for that because i think he definitely like nourished it a bit when i was younger and like kind of instilled like that uh commitment in me like to be like you're gonna practice or no sing it like this come on sing it with soul you know like he would like say coach in a lot of ways yeah in a sense like and then so i would do different shows with him and i would sing his originals with him and like so i definitely got a lot of like practice with that and then yeah and it just it was always something i would do like i was just always no matter where i was it was like sometimes it was kind of almost like not a bad thing but it was something where people would be like do you ever stop singing you sing all the time like like it kind

of there were times where it felt like it wasn't a good thing because people would you know say things that seemed like rude or like judgmental or something or made it seem like i should stop um but i never did and um never will but yeah and it was just kind of like a process so i did a lot of that i I think I took, I took lessons for like, like two or maybe like three or four weeks, not very long when I was in high school or middle school. I really can't remember. And then I did like talent shows. I was always in choir. And then I went to college, and I got my degree in music, and I ended up doing a whole four-year program of being classically trained and learning opera and everything.

And then after that, then I started writing more and just kept performing. When did you start writing for the first time when i you know i started writing in i think in college like throughout college i started attempting to write more because before that i had never i never knew what it meant to read music like i didn't know what... Like, music is, like, another language, first of all. Yeah, absolutely. Like, legit is another language. It's not just something you look at and you're like,

oh, yeah, that makes sense. Like, you actually have to understand, like, what it's saying. You can... The one thing about that, I agree completely. It is another language. The weird thing about this language of music, to me, though, is that, unlike other languages where maybe you can vaguely understand by cues the topics of what people are saying

if you don't really speak the language, outside of that, you don't really know what's going on. With music, though, and I tell people I've never Googled this to make sure because I kind of want to believe this one in particular, but people have said before that Frank Sinatra couldn't read a note of music. Yeah. Couldn't read a single one in his life. But you could put that motherfucker up in the studio with the whole orchestra behind him.

And if the one flute guy in the back missed one note that was like here instead of here, you and I can't even hear it. But he'd be like, yo, stop, fire that guy. He's out. Yeah. Right. You know, like he can. There's there's a language to it that even if you can't even hear it but he'd be like yo stop fire that guy he's out yeah right you know like he can there's there's a language to it that even if you can't read it you know it no and i 100 agree with that because i never knew how to read it and i have always just learned by ear

you know like how you're saying oh frank sinatra could hear that that was wrong it's like i'm not saying i'm frank sinatra but like i can i can relate to that that like you know learning by ear and and just depending on my ear i always depended on my ear to learn things and to know things like when if i was in choir even when i was in college to be honest even though i was learning how to read music and i had to be honest, even though I was learning how to read music, and I had to do all these things, because that was part of the curriculum, like, I had to learn piano, and I had to learn how to read music, but I wasn't amazing at it, and it didn't come very quickly to me, because there are people who have been doing it forever, and I hadn't

been, so even when I, you know, I feel like this might sound bad, but I don't care, I hadn't been so even when I you know I feel like this might sound bad but I don't care I don't think it sounds bad but this is just how I do it like when I I did two operas when I was in college and for both of them I looked it up and I watched it over and over and then I knew it you know I learned it by ear and that's way different than your style and I went into the yeah and I went into the rehearsal like literally knowing every part and my friend was like what the fuck I was like oh I just like watched it like over and over again that's amazing what fuck? And it's like my ear is just very, it just picks it up. So I trust my ear a lot in that sense. But of course it is, it was good to learn what things mean.

But I'm not going to lie and say that I sit there and read music all the time. I should do it more. And I should nourish that but or nurture that but uh sometimes i don't um but in terms of writing that was kind of what sparked it like once i started having to learn piano and like understand like the keys and like you know learn how to read a little i started like messing around on the piano more and just like playing. And then I didn't really start writing words and like actually believing in myself more, I feel like till after college, because then I started,

I was out and then I was like performing and like just trying to do different things. And then I finally got into the studio and like recorded my first song and then so it was just such a process and i graduated in like 2016 2016 yeah and i released my first song like a year ago did you say you you do play multiple instruments yeah no i'm kidding. I'm like, I play every instrument. I play piano. And I'm not like Mozart or anything, but I play. Something. I play, yeah. I understand the chords, and I know how to play well enough to accompany myself and to write.

But I'm never going to be like, oh, you need a pianist. I got you. That's not going to happen. you know chords and progressions and stuff you're like holy like how are you like on the piano or on a guitar like how are you remembering every little thing there and then also hitting your notes and you know you're closing your eyes and singing the song and belting it's like yeah i thought the same things about gabrie like it's exactly how it is with you like you think about it and you're like i'm gonna do this like i know the instrument after a certain point just becomes your voice like i hear what i'm playing like yeah consciously feel that and it's with every musician of like a yeah certain level yeah it's it's very interesting because i can definitely multitask like i can be singing and like literally i've had to do this like people are having a conversation with me like as i'm singing and i have to i'm like singing and i'm having a conversation at the same time and

i don't lose my place and i'm like very i'm multitasking but it's like i've thought the same thing about gabby because i i remember that one time we were doing this gig and he was literally playing and this woman was like talking to him and like telling him all this stuff and and he's like yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah okay yeah yeah and he's like playing i'm like looking at him and i'm like jesus what the fuck he's over there riffing free bird like yeah no totally right yeah like taking down her number and like you know like like yeah yeah well yeah yeah no it's fine it was like a good like minute conversation and i'm like but it didn't he didn't you know it was fine i was like yeah but that's it's kind of like a reflection i guess of like what we do it's not it's not like running and

talking though at the same time like running it's the same you know you learn the motion when you're a kid or walking you learn the motion when you're a kid it's one foot in front of the other you're playing different notes you're playing different songs you're playing different but i guess entirely different vibes but maybe it almost kind of becomes like that because i'm sorry i was so far maybe it almost becomes like that because it's like even for me when i think about like singing i just feel like i could sing things in my sleep you know what i mean it's like especially when you do it so much or when you've sang a certain song so much it's like i could literally think about something else i don't want to do this but

i could think about something else the entire time and still somehow like sing the song and be like right but i'm literally not even thinking about it like i don't do that but i could you do it when you do something over and over again though yeah and you said you sang out loud all the time like just walking around and stuff it's your whole life and if i needed to if i'm like singing but i need to do something i need to fix something or multitask like i can do that and get it done at the same time because my brain just doesn't i don't know it like doesn't differentiate it it's just like it's the same thing i don't know if that makes sense no it's it's it's your trade like when when people are great at something they do it repetitively there's that old law which some people have argued with too because there

has to be like purpose in it but they say like 10 000 hours or something like that i don't know if you guys heard that i have definitely heard that but yeah like it does make sense if you are doing the right things and learning whatever it is and improving you know you put in 10 000 hours i forget what that equates to in like actual time i always wonder what hour i'm at it's it's a lot right so 10 years 10 years around there i must be over 10 000 hours so so i can't play the guitar right now right i can't if you said to me okay julian you're gonna go in this room for 10 years and learn how to play the guitar i'm walking out of there as hendrix let's just be clear yeah right like like for 10 straight years even if it's not 10 straight years

because you gotta sleep all that shit but like you know you learn it you get you get pretty good at it so with singing like you were doing it when you were a very little kid and you just got really really good at it and so now you know yeah you want to be present and you can see it when you are because i mean there's just a thing that happens and it's like on another level or you know there can be moments where you're not thinking about it and you're like yeah yeah i'm doing something else right now and to the person just passing by like wow that shit's fire you know because it's just what you do yeah i definitely am always like i feel like very present but there's just sometimes where you can't control

certain things like you have to like stop and like fix something or something has to happen at you yeah but you know i'm also not perfect and i'm i am definitely fine with admitting that i have moments where i mess up but i i just like have fun with it you know i'll be like oops like i literally have videos too of me like messing up i like say the words wrong i'm like my bed and like keep going and of course like if that was like a really important performance i probably wouldn't take it that easily or i wouldn't be like oh oops i'd be like oh my god i'm so pissed but i used to be such a perfectionist when i was younger and i i still can be sometimes but like i try to like just not be such a perfectionist because i just want to like sing and have fun but yeah it's it's weird i do

think that there's also like a natural ability to like do things sometimes that kind of puts you ahead of the game in a way and then there's like learning something from scratch almost like i would say that i believe that i always had a natural ability to sing. And then I've worked on it. Even with that, I've worked on it and I've trained and I've taken it very seriously and I sing all the time. So it's like you become one with your voice. And then the same with an instrument. You become one with your guitar or your sax or whatever you play.

And I'm a big believer that like you were saying, like someone could sit down and learn. I mean, singing is one of those things that I think like everyone could like take lessons and get better and learn. And like I don't know how you're going to sound, but like at the same time, I'm not going to be the one that's going to tell you you're bad. I don't believe in that i'm not i'm not gonna be the one that's gonna tell you you're bad well i don't believe in that like i don't really think that's like fair you know

i think we all have different voices i don't know how i just got to that oh you're talking in the context of just singing or well really i guess everything because like i don't know like there's just too much out there to think that there's one way to do it oh for sure you know there's just like no way such thing as that there's no way like i you just can't no yeah it's the the the human mind has has an imagination and i've seen some studies on this with like other creatures because other creatures do have it but we have a very powerful form of it i think dolphins are another one from i might be misremembering that so check that but i think dolphins are like another one but there's there's minds that can like

go and see things that aren't there you know make make water from a stone and so when you're talking about anything creative which is pretty much anything but especially like the creative arts like yeah there's not listen to the greatest singers of all time they all go about it differently i mean bob dylan yeah that was the that was the name i was trying to think of before thank you you just wow what what were you trying to think of when i was talking about uh some of the music my brothers were playing. Oh, he was playing Bob? Bob Dylan.

Who's arguably one of the greatest songwriters to ever live. And he's got a unique voice. So unique. When you first listen to it, you're like. You're like, you're a singer? Was that good? Yeah. I don't know if that's good.

But then you measure it and they've done this like scientifically. The man never misses his pitch yeah and and that's why at the end you're like oh no that was good yeah but it's different and it's unique and that and he's a perfect example of why i say i can never literally sit there and be like i mean don't get me wrong there are technical things that are that are just realistic like if you're off pitch or if on a guitar, whatever it is, you can hear, well, most people can hear that it's off pitch. But like Bob Dylan is such a perfect example,

and that's the name I was trying to think of, of why you can't just be like, oh, yeah, no, your voice is not good enough. It's like, you don't just be like oh yeah no your voice is not good enough it's like you don't know that you don't and the p the market look at it look at how he turned out you know amazing and i'm sure a lot of people told him you can't sing because a lot of people tell everyone that even the greatest singers are like you can't sing don't sing i don't know why we do we i don't know why a lot of people do resort to that and especially though not just like the regular passerby who has nothing to do with it who's just in the crowd that's i guess that's just like human nature but i always wonder about people who made it. They had to, you know, shit had to happen for them to make it, right?

Like they had plenty of people tell them to fuck off. A hundred percent. And it's like this passed down thing then where then some of them, they then feel, they forget where they were. And then they feel like they can be that way to someone else. And they don't even, you know, there's some people who maybe they just don't have it. And you know that their work ethic or like their desire to have it you can kind of tell it's just not there that's a little different because that person's gonna weed themselves out anyway but like there there's a lot of people who make it or just kind of like ignore everyone and they're like nah you're

probably not good enough it's like well how do you how who are you to say that yeah i don't yeah also and it's not all about talent you know no when you said the work ethic thing i just thought of that like it's really not you can be super talented but you also have to be super committed and like talent isn't everything there are some people who can pick up a guitar, let's say, and they're not as good as the person next to them, but if they're so committed and they literally play that guitar as often as they breathe, you know? It's like you turn around one day and you're like,

holy shit, you're really good. And you're like, oh, well. That's what happens when you like actually put time into things yes but yeah it's not all about talent it's it's it's so like there's so much to it i think i don't know unfortunately i think sometimes people just get really caught up and then they forget to like be open-minded and be nice. They forget where they came from. I mean, even in sports, LeBron James is the most perfect specimen of a human being athletically I've ever seen, including when he was 18 years old and still at least a little skinny. He was a Greek god. I mean, you saw this man.

He's 6'9". He can run like a gazelle, all this stuff. LeBron is in year, I think, like 19 right now. He just went to a gazelle, all this stuff. LeBron is in year, I think like 19 right now. He just went to his 18th all-star game. He spends like, with inflation it's more, but like $1.5 million a year on his body and on the work regimen that goes with it.

You don't just, point being, you don't accidentally end up getting all the records he has and winning the championships and things like that just because you're born perfectly. There have been other guys who were maybe not like that but they're incredible and they don't get there then there's guys like kobe bryant who don't get me

wrong great athlete in the context of the world i would argue that you could even look at his measurements like his vertical leap and stuff like that in the NBA I'm not sure he was ever a top 10 athlete in the league which means he was still a very good athlete in the context of his peers but he was never number one or something like that hmm but yet he was the best player in the game because that dude didn't know anything else except working on his game and getting better and better yeah you know it's no different in singing someone who goes and works with it with a voice coach every single week of their life several times a week practicing the same little transition from one little pitch to another little pitch and working on that for three months mastering it going to another one like

little nooks and crannies yeah you don't think that makes a difference of course it does it does yeah again i i definitely believe in like a natural ability to do certain things, but I also believe in, I mean, if you perfect one thing or just work on it over and over, you might sing that song so beautifully, and you'll be like, whoa. Because a lot of it is technique. You know?

Well, most of it but then like once you know the technique it's also like that's one thing like being classically trained that was hard for me is it's very technical which is great because it teaches you a lot but then like in layman's terms what like it's very like there's a certain way to like position your mouth or like where you should put your tongue or like how to like say like a certain like if it's like an e or like a or like a like you know there's just different ways to like position yourself and there's different ways to like transition into notes so that way it's like easier to get into it and then there's like different there's head voice and there then there's like belting and then there's chest voice and and then there's ways to mix them all together and yeah which is hard yeah and there's there's just a lot of different technique to it that can make singing something that much easier or that much simpler.

But then once you have the technique, then it's like, okay, well, it's not just all technique. Now you have to also do that kind of without thinking and now just sing. Because if you're just thinking about technique you might be like a robot like you know so it's like just getting used to like putting it together but yeah i agree i think that you can learn i would love to do like a study like that on someone what do you mean like find someone who doesn't really sing and then put them in lessons and have them like work on like this one like a like one song and like see like a before and after of how they sing it there was a podcast

maybe like two or three years ago something like that where they did an episode on that on the freakonomics podcast and i think they might have it might have been centered around them studying like a micro dose of the 10 dozen hours theory that might have been it but i gotta check that but they had like a regular 45 year old woman who had always wanted to sing but had no clue how to do it yeah learned to sing and like she put in that time specific time yeah amount throughout the week and then she was able to sing yeah they played it and i'm like wow yeah i don't know how like i i really don't know because i've never like really seen someone in that position but i definitely do think there is again a very natural ability like whitney houston aretha franklin like you know there are certain people you're like okay no one can do like not everyone can do that you know it's

like there's very um you got to be born with seven octaves yeah there are certain things where it's like okay yeah you're born with that but then of course yeah i think that if if you work hard enough and you're committed enough to like learn something then why not but it's the same like even artists right it's like maybe i can go to art class and like learn how to draw a face but there are people who like their their art is insane like their their portraits and their realism whatever it's called is like what whoa art's even more subjective though yeah because like they're singing like you said you miss a pitch you can kind of tell it's just not like it's not gonna work there's there's people that can't make that work that's

true with art you know you can go to an art show in new york and people are crowded around like a box yeah like it's exquisite or yeah or you could be like doing something and then like you by mistake get like paint somewhere and you're like okay but it's art that's it yeah that's true it's kind of hard like with a when you're singing. If you do miss a note or it goes off pitch, it's kind of hard not to notice that. What about the songwriting side, though? Because you said you got into that, I guess, mostly after college, but you started a little bit in college.

I think that was the answer, right? Yeah, I started a little bit in college, but didn't really, I feel like, have enough confidence in it. And then afterwards I finally started going to the studio and I like recorded my first song and then so I just then it that kind of like sparked a lot of writing and then I just started really getting into it more and no I was never taught necessarily how to write so I'm kind of self taught in that way and i'm still learning a lot or trying to learn more so i'm not going to sit here and be like i'm the best writer but i write how i want to write i don't think a lot of artists

that's one thing i'm not sure a lot of artists are really taught how to write you know the ones who get to study and you did study a program and everything but you started i guess before any of that like the ones who get to go through like a really amazing program and get taught by like the best of the best sure and i don't know examples but i know there are out there but like a lot of writers a lot of people come up they just started writing when they were like 12 they're like oh that sounds good on that baseline okay yeah because i really don't like there there is definitely i don't know there's like a formula to it so i've heard i've never really studied it like that and i don't really always care to because i just don't i just want to do my thing i don't know i'm open-minded if someone wants to like teach me something or if i work with another writer like that's cool but i just really believe that like i'm telling my story and i'm writing what i want

to write and like you're not going to tell me that i'm wrong how you're gonna like you're not going to tell me that my feelings are wrong like i'm writing what i want to write so i'm going to write it where does it i mean you kind of just answered this question for me, but I just want to expand upon it. Like, where does a lot of your songwriting come from? Is it compartmentalized thoughts all put together? Or is it more on like very specific emotions you're feeling at that time? And that's what it has to be. Like, you can't just be like, I want to make a song about X right now and write that versus, no i can do that uh i'll go into this vibe

because that's what i'm looking to create today i feel like i can't really force myself to like create necessarily like sometimes i'll be like i want to write a song right but I'll just like sit down and it's just it's not working you know but then there are other times where yeah it is very very um inspired by a certain emotion or experience that it just like I'll write it in like five minutes and I'm like well and then it's like done or I'll just like write it in my car so and i'm just saying what i feel so it kind of can be both like but i find more often in my experience that i just get really like inspired by either like something that happened to me something that happened around me or an emotion i felt

and then it usually just like pours out in that way and i just like right and then it and it feels right when it doesn't feel right i usually walk away because i'm like i'm not gonna force myself to write something if it doesn't feel right When you're writing are you? Do you hear in your mind like exactly what notes you're gonna hit with it or is it more you kind of have an idea of like Even just a type of melody and then later you're gonna get creative with okay. I'm gonna hit that syllable right there It's gonna go way up, you know, because you're feeling it out. Interesting question.

I like that. Well, I feel like for me, usually I do have times where, like I've had times where I am in my car and I think of something. And then I'm like, I take my audio recording, whatever the fuck it's called. What is it called? The audio recording? Voice notes.'s called what is it called the audio recording voice notes voice notes i'm sorry i was blanking too thank you and i'll i'll like sing into it and i'll end up like writing most of it or all of it and then i'll go home and then i'll like figure out whatever chords i was doing um so i but usually i'll be at my piano and i I'll like figure out whatever chords I was doing. So I, but usually I'll be at my piano and I will just like start playing things

or playing around with chords. And then I don't really, my voice just like does what it does, if that makes sense. I don't really think about it too much. I just kind of like let it do what, like what feels right. But there are moments where i'm like okay well i want to find like uh i'll i do have those moments where i'm like yeah

i'll go up here but i don't i don't feel like it's that um calculated in my head it's just like kind of like whatever feels right and then sometimes i'll i'll i'll mess with it just to be like you know because you still want to have that that sense of like all right this is going to be a big bridge or i'm going to go really high here but then also sometimes you just like don't or me i'm like i don't care it just feels right it feels right this is what i want to say i think i think when people think of this from the outside you know like someone who doesn't write music of course they see the final product and they like it or they don't chances are they like it if they're looking into it and wondering how you did it but like the path to get there yeah sometimes as you said one will just come together in five minutes

where it's like for whatever reason it's a simpler melody or like the words are just there you're in that flow state and everything hits and that happens but like a lot of these processes and even on those when you go back to perfect it it's like you're going bar by bar and you're you're almost like to equate it to painting something imagine you could be doing a painting but you could also backspace you see what i'm saying like meaning it didn't matter if you took this stroke right here you could come back and redo that stroke which they they can great artists can do that but i'm saying like they don't they don't want to be doing that all the time in this case you are getting to do that because you're like well wait a second hold on let's yeah the end didn't sound right because

that one in the middle right there let's go back and rewrite that part and then it's kind of like it can be like a domino and now you're like oh but but then we're gonna do this to follow that up and then the song can even change by the end and now voila yeah honestly sometimes i'm thinking about like certain songs i've written and like i feel like in a way i blank out sometimes and I just write it. If that makes sense. Yeah. Like, I'll be like, I don't even know why I thought of that. It just felt right.

And then it just came out of my mouth. And then I was like, okay, cool. And then I'll like, once I have like an idea of like, oh, this is how the verse went.

Then I'm like, okay. So now, and then it just like comes together. You just, you like write to that sound. And then you're like, oh, this is the chorus. Okay. So I'm going to repeat this now, and then you're like, oh, this is the chorus.

Okay, so I'm going to repeat this now. And then you're like, okay, well, now I have the... I don't know. It's weird. It's definitely weird. And I feel like everyone's process is really different. And everyone writes pretty different, I feel like. But I enjoy it.

I think it's fun. I don't know if you said this. I might have missed this. But do you plan on when you're going to sit down to write? Or is it all just strictly, no, I'm feeling it. Let's go hit it right now. Usually I'm feeling it. Let's go hit it right now.

I can't really plan it. It's like, I can try. I do try to like, okay, sit down and do it. But I'll never force myself to do things if it just doesn't feel right. Like if I sit down and it's just not working, I'm going to leave. And I don't know,

sometimes maybe if you sit there long enough, it will come to you. But I just have found in my experience that I know when it's the right time, like when it feels right and I sit down at my piano and I start to say something or write something and then I write it so quickly and it all comes together and I was like, oh, cool, that felt good.

Yeah. It's therapeutic too. It is, but I do challenge myself to think of something I want to write about and then sit down and do it. So I'm not completely avoidant of that, but I definitely like to listen to myself more than like, oh, I need to do it this way way and it needs to be this way you know i want to i want to really i don't know it's weird sometimes i feel like some people just like write to write

and that's fine too i need to do that more i need to just keep writing to just to like fucking write and just like bang them out maybe they're bad maybe it's good but i don't know i just there's something about like really feeling it and it just like pours out and there's nothing like that feeling and i know i usually know when it's happening and i know when it's gonna happen because i know like the mood i'm in i'm usually very sad and then it happens i'm in my sad bag your music leans more towards sad um in a way i feel like it could but i try to keep it like sad and happy at the same time but maybe maybe i feel like it's... Yeah, maybe. I wouldn't say it's all sad.

I do have some songs that are like, you know, more positive, kind of. But sometimes they're like kind of sad. But then I'll just... I like to have like an upbeat beat and make it sound like happier. I mean this in a good way. Yeah. You have like a very... I mean, I think you way yeah you have like a very i mean i think you described it yourself as like r&b soul something like that to that effect the the way you play

with your voice and everything i've heard you have like a very good deep thought sad voice like that kind of music where i want to turn the volume on 100 and close the doors and like just vibe. Even if I'm not sad. You know, just like, oh, this is like, this is the spring in me right here. I like that you said deep thought. I really like that. Because that's kind of, that put it, that was like a really good way to put it. Because sometimes I'm like, well, it's not just like sad.

It can put you in, it can make you think. But it can make you think in really good way to put it because sometimes i'm like well it's not just like sad it can put you in it can make you think but it can make you think in a good way it can make you think in a bad way like even like the lottery i feel like in a way maybe it can make you think of something that made you sad but in a way it can make you think like yeah screw you like your talk is cheap oh i thought you were good but you're not like like you just caused me frustration like whatever you know but then it also has that element of like yeah but those things can make you sad so i yeah but i like that deep thought i feel like i'm always in in deep thought so i guess that comes through yeah and i feel like I stay pretty true to that I don't know why that came to mind

but I would describe a lot of different types of music also with that tag there's just there's something in and of course like the instruments matter and like what the actual songs sound like of course but there's something in the voice that just kind of does

that for you whereas like if you listen to like Birdie, that's just all like, she's incredible. It's just very sad. It's like, Oh, you know, unless you put like a dubstep on it. Right. Someone puts a dubstep on skinny love. You're like, it's okay to be sad. Yes, absolutely. It's okay to write sad songs. You know what I mean? If there was no sad songs, you don't know what happy songs are. No happy songs. You don't know what sad songs are.

Everything is right for the time that you need it so and i feel like that's kind of sometimes people like why are you so sad and you're like well why aren't you sad yeah it's a human emotion yeah it's like we all have things that we tap into and we all have life experiences so i think that and i don't know i i like to be like real and just pretty genuine with how i feel so i feel like that's how i write it's just kind of like how i feel and i've always kind of struggled with that idea of like oh maybe my writing's not good enough and whatever but it's something in humanity it's something in humanity that brings about that creative gene in people where they're feeling where they're feeling sad and some good shit happens i mean i was talking with my one buddy the other night who just had something really

sad happen to him and you know he's in like a really bad place and he sent me a file of a song he wrote and recorded the same day and you know i've been talking with him seriously and i'm like oh how do i tell him this is like really good you know yeah because i'm listening to it and it was raw it wasn't like something he would make a hit it was very personal song but the writing was unreal you know it was like yeah you felt like you were there and i was texting with him i said you know i want to say this the right way in all seriousness as a side note i'm very sorry you're going through this but god damn are we going to get some great music from it and he was like no it's you're right it's true artist curse you know there's something about it

it's a hundred percent true like if you really tap into that emotion that's that's at least for me that's where it sparks from and i feel like if you listen to a lot of songs like if you really listen to the words they're not all that happy they might just have like a happy beat behind it and then you're like kind of tricked but they're pretty sad not all but a good amount and i feel like that's just that's just right about that yeah a lot of them because that's just where i feel like a lot of inspiration comes from is going through it can be going through good things yeah of course that can spark like a lot of emotion but you know it's it's living life and having experiences that really makes you like sit down and feel a lot and then you're like just like yeah then it's just like all coming out of you and you're like

that's why i there are times i'm like oh i don't want to i don't want to do this anymore i don't want to do that but then you think like but if I don't do it I'll never write a song you know it's okay it's healthy yeah no because you have to live life to to like feel inspired like everything I feel is from the experiences I've had if I if I don't do anything how am I gonna like feel you know so I don't know but i for me that's really where i i really agree with that because i've i find that like some of my favorite songs that i've written are always when i'm my set like i'm at my saddest you just blew a hole in my head with that with that explanation though that most songs even you said even ones that are like happy or upbeat are actually sad yeah it's like it's like if you listen to the words and maybe sad isn't always the

right word but i know what you're saying the connotation isn't a celebration yeah it's not like we are family it's not like that for all yeah there are a lot of songs where like you think about it the most common thing that people sing about is love right because it's yeah it's love heartbreak exactly it's the most chased after human emotion you can get a pure heartbreak song that's very clearly sad it's written in minor chords the whole nine but you can also get and now i won't think of an example when i say this but we could run through them and there's a ton you can also get upbeat songs that are about chasing love that inherently talk about the failures that went on there which means that the person who's coming up with that song and writing it is feeling those things and remembering those things and they're not sitting there like oh

yeah when she broke up with me that was great like it's that's not how it is it's more like oh yeah right oh no that that would work in there yeah we could throw a reference to that. But that's from a place of like some pain, you know? Yeah, I mean, I think that, I don't know. I feel like creating something from pain is when I feel like it's really felt, you know? Because we all have pain and everyone has like different levels to it i'm sure and there's just everyone's going through different things and we're all going through things and nobody is like new to that no matter what where you're living or how you're raised or it doesn't matter like we're all going through something and we all have pain so i think when you can like tap into that and make someone feel less lonely that's

what really like um does the trick i guess because you can like be like oh my god i really relate to that oh my god they took the words right out of my mouth. I'm not the only one that feels this way. Oh shit. Okay, I'm not alone. So I think that's why it's important to be honest and yeah, be fucking sad because people need to know that it's okay to feel these things

and you're not the only one that feels it. If everyone's too happy all the time, you're ignoring that it's okay everyone's too happy all the time you're like ignoring that it's okay to um not be happy all the time yeah it goes right back to what we've been saying yeah it makes life have a point yeah the key is to not be sad all the time that's tough for some people yeah you know depending on what their experience is or what's going on in their life that's true but the other part of that is there are a lot of artists who are inherently sad people who get their i feel like most artists are pretty sad yeah yeah probably more sometimes more i think because there's also i think so much yes exactly exactly that's it you're thinking

about all these other people and like if you start thinking about all the bad you see around him or see around yourself and also like the bad in your own life and you stay in those thoughts and you're creating in those thoughts it's that process over and over again like why why'd kurt kill himself when that dude just like that when he was holding a guitar and lighting a cigarette he was in his own feeling great but then like when he stepped out of that and everyone's like oh kirk cobain he didn't he didn't want that he wanted you know there was something he's like what are all you people doing like what's wrong with me yeah that's a whole other level to it yeah that's some it's crazy and then it ends in that case it ends in tragedy you hate

seeing that but it's a real it's a real thing i talk about the robin williams one i mentioned that a few times on this podcast but like that guy lived to make everyone else laugh everyone else smile he was so talented but he was also he was hilarious just like in nature he's quick-witted the whole nine and then he starts going through something on his end and i guess he got diagnosed with parkinson's or something didn't tell anyone and he was sad and you know he didn't go to anyone else to help him because it was like in his mind he's like well now i'm not going to be able to make people laugh that was my drug to deal with my own pain you know and that's it's crazy to

think about because you you picture a lot of most robin williams movies there are some exceptions you picture like this really happy happy-go-lucky dude which is a movie you know it's not real life but then you'd see him talk in public and he seemed great you hear about people who were friends with him or you know hung out with him at the comedy clubs and whatever, and he was happy. Right? But was he? What people show isn't everything. Anyone can put on a good show.

Anyone can perform. But that doesn't mean that's how they truly feel. And I don't know. Those are really great examples of how you just need to be grateful and be happy with where you are at least for me like i remember um when chester bennington yes lincoln park when he passed i was like i was like whoa yeah it really really shook me in a way because I was, I think, out of college. Maybe two years out of college. I'm clearly still pursuing music and wanting to do this.

And I kept telling myself, I'm going to be happy when this happens. I'm going to be happy when that happens, when this happens. And then I remember that happening. And I was like, whoa. But he had what I wanted. Right? Like, he's like, successful and he's doing so well and everyone loves and like, you know what I mean? And he's like, he's fucking Lincoln Park. You know what I mean? And you're like, no way he was unhappy. And then you're like, oh, yeah. Yeah yeah it's not about that right it's like you just have to be happy with like where you are and like and that's it it's not the things that come to you aren't gonna

like necessarily make you happy that's what you think and you're like oh well i'll be happy when this happens i'll be happy when that happens never works that way no and and that's why it's i guess really important just to like check in with like that mental part yeah and check in with the people around you yeah because you never know like what's really going on you know sometimes it's it's very easy to make it seem one way but really deep down people are just like really struggling. So, yeah. But those are very like, it's very sad. Yeah, it's very sad. Yeah, you can't judge. It's like anything else.

You can't judge the book by its cover. No. Because when you get to a place, there's all kinds of new impid eye around you, impetuses, whatever, around you that you didn't know were going to be there. And now your perspective is where you that you didn't know were going to be there and now your perspective is where you are not where you are now the trick is being able to have always a perspective of where you came from and and all the pot focus on the positive of where you get to right but that's a lot easier said than done yeah you know just having a lot of money can money help sure does it solve your problems no no no exactly you have to you as a person have to really like just be in check with yourself and that's not

easy to do all the time it's it's hard to be a human being life's hard yeah it can be a struggle so i feel like there's just and especially yeah i mean i think also when you make it to a certain level and when you're in the in the public eye and and you're also dealing with all of that it can get even harder i don't know i'm not them and i i wasn't there and i don't i didn't know them like that but yeah I mean it's very sad and you can only imagine what could have been I don't know how to say it like yeah what could have because a lot of people would look and be like what you had everything or what I thought you'd be so happy and it's like no but it's not about that you know and then I don't really know how we got to that but i guess just it's what happens

we just yeah it's just it's great it goes like not to sound depressing but yeah it's just people are in pain and like pain is real so well on a on a lighter note yeah we're back to positive stuff we talked a little bit i think like at the very beginning when we were sitting down about some of the subway things because we were talking like, the people who come in there and yell on their way to work and shit like that. Yeah. But what, like, how long have you been doing that? And you talked about the whole, like, comfort and discomfort thing. You got to do things to make you uncomfortable.

So I know that's part of it. But, like, were you thinking, oh, this is a good opportunity to get noticed just because I can, you know, I can make videos of this stuff and put it online? Or was it just like, ah, like ah it i want to do that um well i've been busking now i think for like three years you've been what busking i'm called busking the is that busking is like what i do it's like the act of like performing on the street and whatnot for that is that a real word that's a real word yep and i haven't known this you're talking to one right now a busker i'm a busker are you with me no i swear this is real so if i say this in the future it's 100 real thing if you look it up you'll all right we'll look at it

i'm sorry you started busking so i've been doing that for like, I would say like over three years now. And it's for a lot of reasons. I mean, for one, I always say that if no one's going to give me a stage, I'm going to make my own stage. So that's one right there. That if I don't have it, I'm going to create it. I'm not going to say, oh, but I don't have somewhere to sing. I'm going to find somewhere to sing. You know what I mean?

And yes, it is strategic because I'm seeing hundreds of people from all over the world, not just from the city. I mean, there's like people who are visiting and they're walking by me. So it's one of the best marketing tools, I guess, that I could do. And me with my sign, that's just me marketing myself. But also, it's really fun to connect with people and just to sing. And as much as I've gotten the hate, which doesn't happen that often, it doesn't outweigh how many amazing responses I've had like people who dance or or who get emotional or who tell me like wow like you're singing the exact song i needed to hear or like oh my god i just had the worst day and you just made me feel so much better can i give you a hug or just like oh i'm so happy you're

here or like this is so refreshing or like I really needed this, I felt so depressed. These are real things I've heard. It's not like I'm just making it up. And it's something that fulfills me because I don't feel like I was just given this talent, as one would call it, talent or whatever just to like sit in my room and sing to myself i'm actually kind of a shy person like i'm really not even that like i can be pretty intense but like i'm a little more like introverted i it's very hard for me to talk i get nervous talking so even stuff like this is like

i'm like oh my god i feel like what i just said was weird or i feel like i'm talking too much like what am i saying but and like when i'm not singing it's like i'm like like fumble on my words but like when i'm singing it's like a different person i'm just like i feel like i'm like there to like do my job like i'm supposed to do that like there's something like that's what i'm supposed to do you know so i i so there's a lot of reasons why i do it but that is definitely a big reason is because i i'm all about energy and i believe in energy and there's nothing like going out there and just like giving my energy and then being able to affect someone in any way. I feel like I did my job and I feel like I am using my gift or whatever for the right reasons.

Like I'm just trying to put out good vibes or put out good energy and like i don't know in a way also like maybe help other singers or people who want to do this realize that they they can like don't listen to anyone and just like do it you know what i mean just go out there and do it no fear no it's cool and it's also like with your backstory it's very cool too because i imagine sure there's gonna be someone out there but there's probably not a lot of people like left left orthodox judaism and became like a like a huge star and you're working on being on your way here oh yeah i was about to say i'm not a huge star but you're working on being on your way here oh yeah i was about to say i'm not a huge star but you're working on it it's getting there you got numbers online i see that yeah you know i mean and and that in itself is like again you know people always say it didn't happen overnight

right like i've been posting videos for so long i've been like always exposing myself in so many different ways but yeah the the busking thing and like singing in the subways especially because i was doing it before the pandemic but when i started going back out when did you get to go back out i started going back well at first i was going back out into the parks in Jersey, because I'll do that too. But when I started going back into the subway, it was like, let's say, December, January. It was right when I released the lottery.

And part of me going back. 2021, yeah. 2020. 2020. My bad. 2020. I lied. December, January 2020 into 2021, yeah okay yeah and i part of

me doing that was for a lot of the reasons i just said but yeah i was like oh i just released the lottery i need to like go out and like market hearing music and not being around people and feeling connection. And it was just still so weird around that time that I even was like, I don't even know if I should go. I feel like people are going to judge me. But I was like, whatever. Were there a lot of other people out there? Like a lot of other performers starting to come back? Not really.

I feel like it was pretty quiet. It was definitely quieter than it used to be. There were people, but I feel like it was definitely. Because like Music Under New York, which is like a whole thing they do, it's like an audition based program where you what is that it's called music under new york muni m-u-n-y okay if you ever see someone with like a flag in the subways it says muni that means they're part of music under new york which means

they auditioned and then they're given the right to like they're given like time slots to go to a spot oh a specific spot yeah so if like i'm out there and someone comes up to me like they're given like time slots to go to a spot and like a specific spot yeah so if like i'm out there and someone comes up to me and they're like hey i have this spot at four o'clock and they show me like their schedule then i have to give it to them because technically like oh it's their spot i got it yeah can you just sing anywhere you just set up anywhere um i never asked that like not really i mean there's kind of like loopholes to it but i don't reveal all my secrets no it's like it's a part of the culture though which is yeah you think anyone could do it you kind of learn as you go but there are definitely like in the subways where i usually

am it's called the mezzanine like that you should be totally you should be fine there as long as no one like complains or something you know and during covid that could have been more that happened to me once and i was like what the fuck but it's because it was like during covid and i guess someone complained but usually you should be fine there but then there are there are just some spots that are like if someone turns a blind eye you're fine but if they do tell you to leave you have to leave so it really just depends like who's who's around but you can't really necessarily sing like on the platforms by the trains because that could be considered as like a distraction and dangerous

so i've gotten away with it but you're not supposed to do it. So it just really depends. Are there more people out there now doing it again? I would say, I think so. I've only been up there a couple times. I don't know. It's one of those where every time I'm going out, I just put out the energy that I'll get the spot I want and kind of manifest it and just kind of the energy that i'll get the spot i want and like kind of manifest it and just like kind of focus on that so most of the time i'll get there and i'm like oh it's open

for me so but i i do think people are out i guess i just try not to think that they're there because then if i do that they'll be there and then they'll have my i see how you're thinking about it differently yeah i think no i understand because you got to do it. Obviously, you have to think like that. But I was, the last time I had been in New York before the pandemic was like a week before and I'll never forget it because it was the first day like the market was crashing

and I was taking a call down in Grand Central Station and I'm on the Bluetooth. I'm looking at my phone at like the stock chart. I was still on Wall Street at the time. So I'm on the Bluetooth. I'm looking at my phone at the stock chart. I was still on Wall Street at the time, so I'm talking to a client. Their stocks are going like this. And I'm looking at all this red, and I'm looking.

The client's in my ear talking back and forth. And then I'm looking up. I'm seeing all these people walking around like everything's normal. I'm looking back down. I'm looking up. I'm looking back down. I'm looking up, and then I'm like, we're're gonna be all right we're gonna be good yeah we're gonna

be fine nah nah don't don't worry about it this this shit's blown over like everyone's walking around we're good to go it was crazy and then didn't and so that was i would was in new york all the time all the time and so then i wasn't when the pandemic started and i went back for the first time january 2021 and this is you know this is like the depths of hell at that time obviously and when i went there i was afraid to go because i love new york it's my favorite place but i'm like i wonder how bad it got you know it was weird It was weird. It was so weird. But that's the thing. Structurally, you know, there have been like all the protests and everything.

Like all kinds of stuff going on. The city's falling apart. Structurally, it looked a lot better than I thought it was going to look. I'm like, God, this doesn't look that bad. I mean, there's the weird like little restaurants on the street that made no sense. But, you know, outside of shit like that, it looked okay. It's just the people. Nothing.

Streets. We got there at 9 o'clock. Or no. We got there at 8 o'clock on a Friday night. I've gotten there at 8 o'clock on a Friday night a lot of times in my life. And it's this. But it doesn't matter if it's the dead of january or the top of july this is bustling move in place and one of the first things you notice is well obviously the people on the street you hear everything

but then you notice like music in the background you notice culture like it's in your face right away and i will it's like comforting yes exactly it's like it's like ah the world's alive exactly it's like this background like almost like it's like it makes it home you know what i mean and we get off we hop in an uber from madison square garden go down to lower east side where there's always shit going on you know and i get out of the car because we're like six blocks away he's like we'll get out here and i get out and we start walking and i was just like i said to brady i'm like yo stop nothing and then we walked like maybe three blocks and then i heard from like some restaurant that wasn't even open some dude like i guess some old italian guy this is he must have been two and a

half blocks away way down you would never hear this i hear some guy playing like the the uh i don't know if it was a guitar but it's like the other thing you would know what it's called but the thing they play in like italy and he's literally playing like the god the mandolin yeah that's it that's what it is so the man i need to figure that out he's playing like the mandolin dictionary And he's playing like the Godfather music. And I'm just, I'm taking this in. I'm like, that is not, I love the Godfather. I love that music.

But I'm like, that is not what I need to hear right now. Because there's no, you know, there's no one singing on the street. There's no one doing like wild drum shit that I'd never listened to. But it sounds great in New York. You know, there's no people moving around. That's what makes New York, New York. You know what I'm saying? And it's amazing that the culture, like a lot that that i and i appreciated it then a lot of

the culture i associated with it was like a lot of the street art you see around you yeah and then it's gone yeah and that's why because i i felt that too like one of the first times i went back into the city not even to sing just to go i literally got off the train i was like whoa felt like deserted it was just so quiet and eerie and weird but once i started going back out into the subways it just like and i and i was always posting my stuff online but i think that you know around that time the videos really started to hit because everyone was just missing music and energy and real life. And it was kind of like, I don't know.

You walk off the train and, wow, finally, someone's singing. Or like, oh, my God, someone's singing yeah or like oh my god someone's out people are doing things like i feel like my my videos were kind of that in a sense of like i got i got some like hate like oh you're the reason why i can't walk into new york city put your fucking mask on and i'm like oh my god like yo we need to live so i feel like it was just kind of it was i yeah i'm very happy that i i went back out when i did because like i think that regardless of anything i just think people needed it you know and i think that it was important to bring that and that was a big reason why i'm out there and I'm always out there. I feel like people need it.

I don't think about the random haters. They need something else. They need help. But majority of people just need good vibes. Like they need it. You know what I mean? So that's why I am there. And I feel like that's why everything kind of went the way it did in a way because i think that it was needed we needed people to be back out into the world again and

be like it's okay don't be scared like well said live you know yeah i guess that's kind of what i was trying to do i hope to god my microphones did that justice that was that was unreal thank you for coming down here as well you came right out of the dugout at the end there three hours cramped in the corner fire on on the guitar. Thank you, Gabri. And then, Nasha, those vocals were unreal. Thank you. So where can everyone get your music? Everywhere.

Apple, Spotify, SoundCloud, YouTube. And how do you spell your name? N-A-H-S-C-H-A. Nasha. There you go. You guys come down here and record whenever you want. I love this vibe. Thanks for having us.

You guys are both awesome. Thank you so much. Appreciate it. Thank you for coming for coming in thank you we'll do it again sometime absolutely everybody else you know what it is give it a thought get back to me peace