Julian Dorey Podcast - The DARKEST Secret Epstein Network They Hid from You | Nick Bryant

Episode Date: September 16, 2026

SPONSORS: 1) ULTRA POUCHES: Don’t sleep on [@ultrapouches]. New customers get 15% Off with code JULIAN at https://takeultra.com !#UltraPouches #ad 2) DOSE: Head to dosedaily.co/JULIAN or enter JULIAN to get 35% off your first subscription. JOIN PATREON FOR EARLY UNCENSORED EPISODE RELEASES: https://www.patreon.com/JulianDorey CLIPPERS DISCORD: https://discord.gg/8QmWEKJ3BT NEWSLETTER: https://juliandoreypodcast.beehiiv.com/get-julians-top-10-books (***TIMESTAMPS in Description Below) ~ Nick Bryant is the original Journalist who published Epstein’s Black Book and Jet Passenger Logs. NICK'S LINKS: - X: https://x.com/nick__bryant - YT: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCL-EuWGMznqwn7AomOPXNjQ - WEBSITE: https://nickbryantnyc.com/ FOLLOW JULIAN DOREY IG: https://www.instagram.com/julianddorey/ X: https://x.com/juliandorey ****TIMESTAMPS**** 0:00 - Nick's Black Book & the Franklin Scandal 11:05 - Lawrence King, Craig Spence & the CIA Asset 22:00 - Alisha Owens: The Victim Who Got Indicted 31:20 - Boystown, Omaha & the CIA Concentration 42:31 - Ru's Confession, Dennis Hastert's Fall 52:26 - Confessions of a DC Madam 1:03:41 - Watergate's CIA Honey Pot & Bob Woodward 1:12:46 - The Push for an Independent Commission 1:24:06 - Running Away at 12, Studying Kant 1:33:33 - Minneapolis Murders & Moving to New York 1:42:39 - Acosta's "Special Room" & the Sweetheart Deal 1:54:36 - Alfredo Rodriguez Steals the Black Book 1:58:20 - Gawker Runs It, Phones Get Tapped 2:08:25 - Making Peace With Death, Family Silence 2:18:31 - Labor Unions & the Child Abuse Numbers 2:28:12 - Henry Jarecki, Epstein's "Monster" Doctor 2:36:47 - Mossad, MK Ultra & Andrija Puharich 2:43:55 - Why Pedophilia Is So Rampant 2:57:46 - Clinton, Trump & "The Epstein Class" 3:09:50 - Did Epstein Introduce Melania to Trump? 3:16:10 - Nick Bryant's Work CREDITS: - Host, Editor & Producer: Julian Dorey - COO, Producer & Editor: Alessi Allaman - https://www.youtube.com/@UCyLKzv5fKxGmVQg3cMJJzyQ - In-Studio Producer: Joey Deef Julian Dorey Podcast Episode 476 - Nick Bryant Music by Artlist.io Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

So you were the original guy to leak the black book, the famous, the infamous, I should say, Epstein Black Book. I was the guy that leaked not only the Black Book, but I also leaked the flight logs, too. Oh, I didn't realize that. He did the flight logs as well. I also did the flight logs. Where did you get those fucking things? Okay, I got the black book from an attorney that was representing a number, that was representing some Mpsey and Wickham's. And then I got the flight logs from an attorney that was representing some of the Epstein victims. Why do you think they gave them to you? Was it because there were just so few people digging around on it, then you were just persistent? Or was it because you had been on the case for

such a long time and had developed relationships with those guys? Well, you know, I give them a couple million dollars. And I had written a lot about child trafficking. And I had written a book called the Franklin scandal, which Epstein is almost a carbon copy of the Franklin scandal. And so I had that going for me. And plus, I've done a lot of anti-child trafficking activism. I've spoken in a number of conferences. So when I showed up, it's not like I'm some reporter that's looking for a salacious scoop. I really wanted Justin. And this was 2011. And nobody was going to these attorneys in 2011. So I went down to Florida. And I had had the Franklin scandal published about two years earlier.

And we couldn't get anyone to buy it. I spent seven years writing that book. Seven years on that book. How did you, I mean, we're going to get into the background of that as well because that's a forgotten one. And obviously you're like the guy on it. But how did you initially even get into investigating the Franklin scandal? Well, it's kind of a word story. I was sitting and I was pitching articles to a magazine editor.

Okay. And I'd written about the Hells Angels. I'd written about serial killers. I'd written about mobsters. And so he just kind of pegged me as a guy that writes about dark stuff. And so he said, pitch me dark stories. And I said, you know, I mean, how dark do you want to go? I mean, Satanist, Nazis. You know, what, how dark? And then he goes, and that glint and an utterer's eye. You can always see that glint. And he goes, Satanists. So I had a simple plan.

And whenever anybody says they have a simple plan, then you know it's not going to be a simple plan. No. So I had a simple plan. I was going to hang out with some Satanists. I was going to go to a black mass. And then I was going to write an article. Would have been an easy, pretty easy money. That actually is straightforward.

Just go straight to the sign-up sheet. Yeah. Hey, guys, if you're not following me on Spotify, please hit that follow button and leave a five-star review. They're both a huge, huge help. Thank you. I found some Satanus to be very unsavory. And then I found some Satan's to be less unsavory.

But as a writer, when you're looking at a subject, you're looking at tangential stories. And I came across a story about a cult called the Finders. And two finders were in a Tallahassee Park with six kids. And the kids looked like ragamuffins. And these guys were dressed in suits. And the kids looked like ragamuffins. So Concerned Citizen called the Talahassee Police Department.

The Talahassee Police Department took one look. and they arraigned the finders on multiple counts of child abuse and then put the children in protective services. And actually, I have the Talhastya police report. A doctor said that two of the kids showed signs of sexual abuse. And I acquired a U.S. customs report about that investigation. And the U.S. customs, I believe, got involved because they thought that child child, abused material was involved.

So I got the customs report on that investigation. And the last, and it's written by Special Agent Ramon Martinez. And the last page of that document said, of that investigative report says, the CIA has made this an internal matter and there will be no more investigation. I'm paraphrasing. And then that just blew my mind. I mean, first of all, the CIA isn't supposed to operate in the United States. I mean, that's never stopped them, but legally they're not allowed to.

And then why would the CIA go to bat for a bunch of a strange cult that's seemingly doing ominous things to children? So that was kind of a big bang for me. I mean, at that point, I became willing to end. entertain ideas that I otherwise wouldn't have entertained. And then bouncing around on the internet was kind of a similar story in Omaha. And there was a documentary that had been made about it, but the document, the plug had been pulled on the documentary before it was finished. But either the director or the producer released

a very rough cut of it, and it was bouncing around the internet. And there was a former state senator that had written a book about it. But it wasn't, I mean, you could tell that something went down. But people had blown it up to, like it was in interstate child trafficking network, that was connected to the CIA, that was connected to Washington, D.C., that it was connected to blackmail. like what we were seeing with which ever had seen and that they were plundering boys town which is the distinguished catholic urban engine outside of omaha for kids so i had a you know i decided to look into it i've studied philosophy in college and um socrates said that you should approach everything agnostically. On my best days, I can do that. So I decided to approach this. But I knew that something

had gone down. I wasn't sure of exactly what had gone down. But I thought that there were probably some, like there was a ring in Omaha of maybe wealthy guys that had molested the kids. So when I got to Omaha, what year is this? This is 2002, 2003. Okay. So when I got to Omaha, I found a victim that was willing to talk to me. He seemed to be telling the truth. There was actually a Senate subcommittee that was formed, a state Senate subcommittee, to investigate it. And their lead investigator, his plane blew up in midair

when he had some critical evidence, and he was flying back to Omaha. What was that guy's name? Gary Curidori. Gary Curidori. His plane blew up. His plane blew up. Funny all that happens.

Yeah. Yeah. So I, and then I got to one of the blackmail photographers. The black male photographers. Yeah. Is that exactly what it sounds like? Yeah. He took pictures. Yeah. So, and that guy, okay. Okay. So to be a blackmail photographer, to have that kind of, shall we call it, vocation, to have that kind of vocation shows that there's some moral turpitude. Yeah.

And, but I was talking to him about it. And he said that he gave Caradori pictures in Chicago. And Caradour was signed back. Because the FBI, he said it, told him to get out of town. And then he started bawling when he started talking about Gary Caradori. I mean, just broke down in tears. Wait, so he's bawling even though he was the guy that stood in there and took these pictures forever fucking long.

Yes. Yeah, yeah. So what? You know, humans are incomprehensible, man. I guess. You know, it's sometimes guys that are straight up sociopathic can actually commit acts of altruism. I mean, I'm not saying that it's the rule, but it happens. So, and then I got, I talked to one of the senators that was investigating.

And I wanted him to go on record. I was still hoping to salvage a magazine article on this, but he wouldn't go on record with me. I talked to someone who was in charge of the foster care services, reviewing the foster care service. And she wouldn't talk, but she was frightened. I mean, they both told me that this is real and it's frightening. And over the course of my stay in Omaha,

somebody was following me. And then... How'd you catch them following you? It was... I'm really... I've got a really bad internal GPS. And this is 2000 to 2003. And I was driving on this country road, and I came to a triple fork, and I was supposed

to take the left fork, but I took the middle fork, and it was a long dirt road. And then I hit my brakes, turned around, and then there was like a gray sedan behind me. I maybe a hundred yards behind me, 75 guys behind me, that hit its brakes. So then I found what I was looking for. And then I talked, it was a victim. I talked to him for a while. And then when I was driving back to Omaha, there wasn't any subtlety involved. That guy was right on my tail.

And I even hit my brakes a couple of times. And he was still on my tail. and then I got off on an exit. And he didn't follow me off on the exit. And then I stopped. That scared the shit out of you, though? Well, I stopped at a convenience store and bought two ice cream sandwiches.

I deal with stress a lot of the time through ice cream sandwiches. And, yeah, of course. you know, that's frightening. And, but after my second ice cream sandwich, I was, you know, I was ready to roll. So then I go back to, and I'm staying with an old buddy of mine

who isn't quite sure whether or not I've lost my mind. But then, so he called someone that was, for lack of a better word, he was an herbal life distributor. Wait, like herbal life, the company?

Well, I mean, herb is in. Oh, oh. So he was an herbal life distributor. And my buddy was talking to him, and this guy broke down crying because of some traumatic things that he'd seen providing this particular network with weed, and I also think Coke.

But then the last night, I was on at Omaha, I was staying in my, and my buddy was, living in an apartment complex. This crazy-looking woman came up to the door. And I was watching the history channel. I can't remember exactly what I was watching. I was waiting for my buddy to come home and we're going to cook dinner. He was going to cook dinner. I'm not much of a cook. Well, it can be if I really try. Do you desperately need a nicotine pouch or coffee throughout the day just to stay awake? I got tired of being reliant on a short-term fix to give me a quick burst of energy. That's

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Once again, that's take ultra.com, link in my description below for 15% off using code Julian. After you purchase, they're going to ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them I sent you. When Westcham first took flight in 1996, the vibes were a bit different. People thought denim on denim was peak fashion. Inline skates were everywhere, and two out of three women rocked the Rachel. While those things stayed in the 90s,

Something that hasn't is that fuzzy feeling you get when Westjet welcomes you on board. Here's to Westjetting since 96. Travel back in time with us and actually travel with us at westjet.com slash 30 years. But, so this crazy-looking woman came to the door and said she wanted to give me a book. And by this time, I'm freaked out. I mean, I'm, it's, people are frightened to talk to me. I mean, it's like I'm doing an ex-poise on the day. the KGB and Stalinist Russia.

Had you ever experienced anything like this on a story before? No. Yeah. No. I once wrote a story where there was where I proved that there was a serial

killer in Minneapolis killing prostitutes. And law enforcement had denied it prior to that. And then I put together this list. I put a lot of work into it, but I found like 38. 38.

Yeah, that would be. been beaten, stabbed or strangles. And I thought to myself, this is going to get published, and I'm going to out the serial killer. And I hope he doesn't take it personally. So, but no, I'd never, I mean, I had been, I had hung out with the head of the Hells Angels.

George? Sunny Barger. Oh, Sunny Barger at the time. And, I've had George in here. Oh. Yeah. And I've been to the Superman. Max prison to interview the former boss of the Casey Crime family.

So I'd been through these somewhat harrowing things, but nothing, you know, prepared me for what went down in Omaha. And then I remember I got back, and I was freaked out. You know, the thing that freaked me out the most is that it was all true, that there was this pedophile network. And it was getting kids from Omaha. And it was flying kids to Washington, D.C. And it was, and there were parties for power brokers.

And there would be blackmailed. Could we actually fill in those blanks for people out there who aren't familiar with the full process here? Obviously, that's the like 30,000 foot in the air of you. But specifically who was doing it, who they were then selling the kids to? I mean, it's obviously very sick shit. But yeah. So this particular pedophile network, the epicenter was Omaha. And there were two primary pimps. One was Lawrence King of Omaha, Nebraska. And one was Craig Spence of Washington, D.C. And Craig Spence had a house. He was a CIA asset. And he had a house that was wired for audiovisual blackmail. I mean, just like Epstein. Yeah. And how did you know he was a CIA asset? Because there had been a number of reports. that had said that he was.

And plus, I went to one of the guys who I trusted who had outed Spence as a CIA asset. What made you trust this guy? This source? Because I'd known him for a number of years. He was down in D.C., he had never bullshitted me.

I mean, I trusted him. He's a journalist like you. Yeah. Okay. So anyway, Craig Spence had this house that was right for audio visual blackmail. And then the kids would be flown all over the country. But the best, like I acquired 200 flight receipts for, from that network.

Because I scored the entire seal grand jury exhibits and testimony from one of the grand juries. They had the flight receipts in a grand jury and didn't bring charges. No. You can indict a ham sandwich in a grand jury. Yeah, yeah, I'll get into the ham sandwich. So, uh, I, I knew that there was this connection because I came on my first trip, I came across a lot of documents very early on and I had the good fortune.

Actually, I came across a list that the investigator who died. It had a list of like 325 people and there were 60 alleged victims on that particular list. So I knew that. And I, with Craig Spence, okay, so King and Spence ran this network. And Spence was definitely a CIA asset. I don't know. People have theorized that King was, but I couldn't find proof that King was a CIO asset.

And they both started getting a lot of publicity. King got busted. He ran a credit union that was for lower socioeconomic people. In Nebraska. In Nebraska, in Omaha. And the credit union was supposed to have like $2.5 million in it. And actually, he stole $30 million from it. And it hadn't been audited in four years.

And if you're a federally insured credit union, you have to be audited every year. But it hadn't been audited in four years. So, and then Spence, the Washington Times was out in Spence's little blackmail operation. And it's a pretty famous headline, Colboys took midnight tour of the White House. Call Boys took midnight tour of the White House. The Washington Times wrote this, the like conservative outlet in D.C. Yes, yes. Yeah. And they did some really good stories.

this. And then, so Spence was getting a lot of publicity. And just like Maxwell and Epstein got a lot of publicity. Now, King was picked up in Omaha by federal marshals, and he was brought to a federal psychiatric, a federal hospital. I guess he was possibly in the psychiatric war. We'll never know. It's in Springfield, Missouri. There's your headline, by the way. There it is right there. Homosexual prostitution inquiry and snares VIPs with Reagan Bush. Callboys took midnight tour of White House. Yes. So both King and Spence were now getting a lot of publicity. And this is what happened to Epstein too. If you're a blackmailer, you cannot blackmail people if people know that you're a blackmailer. They're they're going to stay away from you. That's right. So King and Spence lost their usefulness.

And King was picked up just without any motions from the prosecution or defense and put in the psychiatric hospital that diagnosed him as delusional. And he was there because there were two grand juries that were used to cover us, a federal and a state grand jury. And then Spence killed himself. He was in the Boston Ritz. And he was in the Boston Ritz. he was wearing a tuxedo. The Boston Ritz. Yeah. Ritz-Carnelton.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So he checked in and with, he was wearing a tuxedo. And then he had a newspaper clipping about how that debated whether or not CIA agents should be allowed to testify before grand juries or just testify. Because he was called by a grand jury. There was a grand jury that was a grand jury that was. investigating that. And I think Spence, and I think that Epstein might have been made a similar deal,

either you can kill yourself or we can kill you. The Frank Pantanjali kind of. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So, yes, Frank Pantangeli is shitting. So Spence died. Now, King kept his mouth shut. And he did like 10 years in federal prison, and then he got out.

and he had a no-show job waiting for him in Alexandria, Virginia. Now, why would they let a guy like that live? He's just a cog on their wheel. Why would they let him sit in a prison for 10 years, surrounded by a bunch of criminals that he might accidentally run his mouth to and then get out and even hook him up with a nice job? You know, which is, you know, to kind of blackmail him off. But like, why not just kill him?

Well, I think that the deal was made. If you talk, we'll kill you. If you don't, we won't. And then we'll take care of them. you. And I think Maxwell was given a similar deal. I don't, when Maxwell gets out of prison, whenever that is, I, and it'll probably be before. And with the feds, you've got to do like 85% of the time. Yeah.

So when Maxwell, what was it, what was it, Tim Dillon was saying, Dief? He's like, yeah, we can find a heartbeat in a ram, but we couldn't find fucking Gillen Maxwell in New Hampshire. So, yeah, I mean, that was very silly, but the feds did. But that was the Franklin scandal. And what really bothers me about that, and I spent seven years on that book. And now there were two grand juries that said that not a single child have been trafficked or even abused by these guys. So wait, just so I understand that, the grand juries, when you say they said that, it's because they declined to bring any charges whatsoever.

They indicted the victims that wouldn't recant their accounts of their abuse. The grand juries indicted victims. Yes. What? Did they end up going to trial? One of them did, yeah. And she got nine to 15 years for perjury. For perjury for saying that she was abused.

It was molested, yeah. So it was boys and girls that were getting molested. Yeah. Mostly boys, but yeah, girls too. And the authorities really tried to destroy her. They put her in solitary confinement for about two years. I think maybe I'm misremembering this, But you remember the Brian Banks case, Steve?

The number one overall high school linebacker, if we could Google that. He was, so this kid was like the number one recruit in the country. His senior year, some girl accused him of rape. He went to prison for like six years, which ended his career. And he was let out of prison and exonerated because she lied. And if I'm not mistaken, was she ever even tried for that? I don't think she was. Alicia Owen is the woman's name.

Alicia Owen. Owen. Yeah, let's look her up as well. Yet a little girl who makes an accusation against grown-ass men that clearly had a lot of evidence here. When the grand jury refuses to bring charges against that, they double whammy it and the prosecutors bring in another grand jury or whatever, maybe the same one to then indict her for that. Okay, so here's how that worked out. The first grand jury was, well, they were both dog and pony shows, but the first grand jury went it for months.

And the prosecutor, I don't know if your audience is familiar with how grand juries work, but a special prosecutor has chosen to oversee a grand jury. And he or she shows the prosecutor's the evidence that here she deems important and calls the witnesses that here she deems. What's that? Shows the jury. Right. Yeah.

And grand jurors are just people that have shown up. for jury duty. So the special prosecutor of a grand jury, there's that famous quote, could get a grand jurist to indict a ham sandwich. And what they did, and this also happened with Epstein's grand jury

too that found out that ruled he had molested a single job. That happened in Florida. What year was that? It was, I think, 2006. So that was a separate

grand jury from the one that did end up bringing charges? Or are you talking about the same one? I'm talking about Epstein very early on during his first bust. But with this, there were two grand juries. There was a state grand jury and a federal grand jury in Nebraska. Okay. And both of them declared that not a single child been abused. And Alicia Owen and Paul Benassi were indicted for perjury. Alicia was given eight counts of perjury and Paul Bonassi was given three casts. Yeah, here it is. 1993, August. So this is the appeals where she's appealing, I guess, her sentence or being found guilty. The trial lasted five weeks. The record contains over 4,000 pages of trial testimony, 1802 exhibits, including approximately 11 hours, a videotape testimony of Alicia, included in the exhibits or more than 1,000 pages of testimony

from a previous grand jury proceeding related to Owens' perjury trial. Having reviewed the foregoing, we present a summary of the facts relevant to the issues on the appeal. Can you go all the way down to the bottom? Obviously, they denied. We can't get it because it's behind a pay. Okay. But that, wow, that's... So, Alicia was looking at eight cons of perjury.

So she was looking at 160 years. 160 years for perjury. Yeah. What? And Nebraska, at that point, one kind of perjury could use you 20 years. Jesus Christ. And then the feds indicted her on eight consubstable. perjury and that's five years max so she was looking at 200 years this is a girl that have been

trafficked in her adolescence and she was i think 1920 years old so she was looking at 200 years in prison and the FBI had told all these victims that if you talk you're going to jail for perjury the FBI told them that yeah yeah I mean, the FBI, I mean, both the Department of Justice and the FBI teamed up to make sure that this thing went away. And Alicia went, so the federal grand jury was a backstop because Alicia had to be found guilty to sanctify the grand jury that said that no one had been molested. And then they just barely got Alicia that jury was deliberate for about three days. So they just got Alicia by the skin of their teeth. Somebody walked in with a gun.

So they dropped the perjury charges against Paul Benazi and then put Alicia away. What happened to Paul? Paul he ultimately he was also in prison and he ultimately got out and he's married and has three kids and lives a pretty productive life

I take it I take it you've seen true detective before I have indeed yeah so that first season in particular is the greatest season in the history of TV of anything but I want to get the creator Nick Pizzolato on here so badly because, you know, that came out in January 2014. He wrote it, I guess, in like 2011, 2012, 2013.

That came from somewhere. Well, I called him up one day and asked him if he'd want to work again with me. Oh, really? And he said they only wanted to do fiction. But actually, there's a... The Franklin scandal is mentioned, I think, in season two of shoot-in-law. So, yeah, they were definitely primed on what I wrote, I believe. Wow.

That's wow. And so my, and I went back to Nebraska, I think, 12 times. Over that seven-year period. Yeah. And then I went to Washington, D.C. Do you ever, you know, I think about this a lot with anyone working any kind of story, whether it's dark or, you know, something just historical, whatever it might be. But like, you know, you live in New York.

You've lived in New York for 31 years. So at that time, you were already well underway being a New Yorker and all that. And you're going to Omaha, Nebraska, in the middle of the country. And you're going outside Omaha as well to track down all these different victims. You're in these smaller places. And it's almost like I picture a guy like you, especially as you start to peel the onion away and get closer to closer like, holy shit. What am I looking at here? it's almost like you're this speck in the middle of this whole other world and you maybe you have a

moment there at some point where you just I don't know standing out on that dirt road alone and you're like holy shit this seems like the most relaxed laid back innocent kind of place yet the darkest shit ever happened right where I'm standing like did you have a moment like that well I had been through Omaha twice before and It just looked like a bunch of, like, fat, happy white people. And, I mean, that's, one wouldn't think that. But I think, you know, Oscar Wilde's set of art go below the surface at your own risk. And I believe that there's a lot of networks at any given time.

Now, some of those networks might be just tricked up to the cops. some of them actually might be hooked up to the feds. I know in Minneapolis, there's this thoroughfare where a lot of the prostitutes walk. It's called Lake Street. And the cops tell the prostitutes that they like or the prostitutes that service them were going to have a dragnet on Friday night.

And everybody on the street is going to get rounded up in arraigned. So, I mean, that's law enforcement collusion with, with criminality. So I think that, but yes, one wouldn't think that such darkness would lurk under Omaha, Nebraska. But the thing about Omaha, Nebraska, and this is what makes it very different, Strategic Air Command is located outside of Omaha, Nebraska. Strategic Air Command? That is the brain of our national defense.

That's where they took Bush after 9-11. Right. So, and I've been told by actually two sources that Omaha has the second highest concentration of CIA of any place in the country, only to Langley. Just because that part, our defense system has to make sure, or the people in charge of our defense. defenses have to make sure that nobody infringes upon strategic air commands. See, that's okay. But the other shit. But there's a lot.

I think there's a lot of illegal stuff that goes on there. Can we talk about the most underrated organ in your body? It's your liver. This thing does 500 plus functions for you every single day, including filtering unwanted elements, supporting digestion, and helping with energy. But we never think about it until something's wrong. What if we actually supported our liver before the problems started? That's where my friends, a dose for your liver come in.

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That's D-O-S-E-D-A-I-L-L-Y. dot CO slash Julian link by description below for 35% off your first month subscription um illegal this is beyond illegal this is this is the sick of shit I mean but I'm I'm talking shall molestation but I'm talking other things too other things yeah so um I eventually hired a private detective because I'm very good at finding people but there were two people I could not find and they didn't use their social security number very often. But they were really instrumental to the story. What kinds of people?

There were victims. One was a victim. Well, the people that ran the Franklin network started to use her as a, as in Child of Beast material when she was like nine or ten. And then the other guy had been through Boys Town. And a Coishtown? Yeah. What's Boys Town?

It's the most famous iconic orphanage in the world. It's really, it's the most famous orphanage in the world. In Omaha? Yeah, it's outside of Omaha. And they were using this as a sourcing place? Yeah, at that point, Omaha or Boys Town was a smorgasbord for pedophiles. And it's mind-boggling because I've talked to a number of Boysdown kids that were recruited out of Boysdown. How, well, obviously, they were completely forced into it their kids.

But what did they, how did it work? What did they tell you? Okay. So the number one guy at Boys Town, Monsignor Hub, he was a drunk. And the number two, and he wasn't a pedophile. Well, he wouldn't have made deals with pedophiles, but he was a drunk. He was pretty disconnected. It was kind of a titular head.

And the number two guy, James Kelly, he was a pedophile. And he'd molest. Yeah. He'd molested a number of kids in New York, upstate New York. And the Catholic Church in its infinite wisdom put him in Boys Town. So I believe that there was a deal made where father, and Kelly molestead. a lot of kids, but I think that he was also, because someone had to give these kids privileges. They were flown to D.C. and all of it. Someone had to give these kids privileges to get out of,

almost get out of Boys Town. And I think it was, it was Kelly. So that's how, and all as they really needed was that one guy. Just one guy. And, and, but there were other people that were involved too with Boys Town. And the money. It was all about the money. Who were the other people? People that... So with Boys Town, they've got like individual houses

where the kids stay and it's supposed to be like the family teachers. So it's supposed to be like a household. Now, I've told that family teachers were also involved. And what I found really disturbing was, it seems, now I can't prove this, that kids that didn't have parents or parents that really looked after them were much more susceptible to being trafficked than other kids. Sure. I mean, it's an orphanage. They don't have, yeah. But, you know, we are talking kids from very lower socioeconomic backgrounds,

and you give them $500 and they'll do a lot of different things for $500. So they're paying the kids, literally. Yeah, there's money and there's drugs. Those are the carrots. So they would go in and drug them with, are we talking like date rape drugs kind of thing? No, no. Drugs were like the carrot.

If you perform well, you know, you can have drugs or... Oh, so they'd be like, okay. Yeah. And with one... So we're getting back. The woman that was the private detective that found two people for me that I wasn't able to find. She had traced a drug ring to Offutt Air Force Base, which is part of Stratcom.

And according to her, she was taken for a ride in a van and beat up really badly and then pushed out of the van onto a highway. So you can get away. When something is that insular, you can get away with a lot of criminality. Now, so she found a girl named Chinetta Moore that I had documentation on, and she found a guy named Roo Fox, and I've been looking for Rue forever. And this was towards the end of my investigation. And these are victims, like you said.

Yeah. And Rue, okay, so the detective, told me, you know, Rue's got a sleeve that's, you know, a mile long, violent, a record, a criminal record that's a mile long and he's really violent. So, you know, I wonder why. Be careful. And so I called up Rue and I said, Rue, my name's Nick Bryant. I'm a, I'm a journalist. I'm working on a story. I'd like to talk to you. And he goes, you're a cop. And I go, no, no, I'm not a cop. I'd like to meet with you and he goes, you're a cop. And I go, I'm not a cop.

He goes, I'll meet with you, but if you're a cop, I'm going to snap your neck. And so he chose this dive bar in Omaha. The kind of bar were people drink until they die. I mean, it might be, they might die tomorrow. They might die next year. They might die in five years. But they're there to drink and die. So I'm there drinking a cranberry.

juice and that doesn't taste quite right. And I'm thinking that I might need some antibiotics. But anyway, my piccadale is aside. And then Rue comes in with two friends. And Rue, he was in prison for a number of years. And he is pumped up. He's like a human pit bull. And he goes, back here. You know, I went to shake his hand. He goes, back here. So there was a room in the back of the bar that was completely vacant. So it was, it was Rue and his two friends and me. And he thrusts me up against the wall. And it's kind of a weird thing.

You know, I did see where the exit sign was. A little late for that. Well, I mean, if, and Rue was the biggest and meanest of the three of them. If worse came to worse, I was going to hit Rue with my best shot. and then go out the exit. But I didn't, it was kind of weird. You know, he thrusts me against the wall. And he goes, I'm you a cop.

And I said, no, I'm not a cop. And he said, prove it that you're not a cop. So I had my backpack with me. And I pulled out the documentation on him that had linked him to this network from Boys Town. To prove that you're not a cop, that would, I mean, my red blinker would be going off saying, cop if I sold out. Well, there was a lot of documentation in my backpack. So, and he told me, and I told him exactly what I was doing.

And so we sat down. I kept buying him and his buddy's pictures of beer. And then he needed a ride. He was shooting crystal meth and drinking cheap vodka every morning. And so I gave him a ride to where he is. He was, I believe he was going to cut crystal meth and then, you know, and then I called him up and he kept on saying, man, you opened up the wrong door. You opened up the wrong door. He was a 12-year-old and Lawrence King, one of the pimps, had molested him and gave him a bunch of stitches.

And that was covered up. Gave him a bunch of stitches. Yeah, sodomized him. Gave him a bunch of stitches. So he endured that when he was 12 years old. And then he became this big violent guy. No, hold on a minute. He obviously, something like that threw his whole life off, as we can tell.

And I mean, who could blame him? But like, I would think a, I'm just playing basic psychology here, I would think a really big drug-abusing, you know, angry at this point, criminal, very ripped-up guy. might react a certain way if you're bringing up the most traumatizing moment of his life. The most horrific nightmare he's ever had.

And he didn't like punch you? No, you know, the thing is I interacted with a bunch of victims at this point. Rue was like the last victim that I actually found. And I, yeah, people have a, I, I try to conduct myself with integrity. And I think people can pick up that. And with Rue, he didn't, I mean,

so here's what happened with Rue. You know, I called him up a couple of times. And he kept on saying, you open the wrong door, you open the wrong door. And then I was about to split Omaha and come back to New York. And I thought, I'm going to try Rue one. last time. And I was worried. I was really worried that that rage and wrath was going to be directed at me. But I had to give it a shot. I mean, I'd found him. It took me a long time to

find him. And I had to give it one last shot. So I got to him after he had shot up some crystal meth and drinking a pint of vodka. He's working on a car in his father's backyard. Rue had a father? Yeah, who was dying. And who had done a... But he was in the boys home? Rue had done a lot of, his father had done a lot of time. Also. So, I said, hey, Rue, how you doing? You know, ready to run a, you know, 4-140 if I had to. I said, Rue, how you doing? And he goes, you know, I've been thinking about talking to you about what happened to me. So this is after the bar meeting? Yeah.

And two phone calls where he was very pugilistic on the phone. So, or a cervic. And I said, well, yeah, well, that'd be great, real. I mean, if you want to talk to me. And so he was working on this car. And I was his like gopher. And his buddies came over. And I was like the gopher.

I'd, you know, get him parts. I'd get them at McDonald's, you know, whatever they want to get them. And then at a certain point, I took root of the hotel where I was staying. And we started to talk. And it was this big, scary dude who just broke down crying. And that 12-year-old. that had been so damaged by these malignant people came out. That armor, that ferocity, that was the armor that he wore.

And he took it off for that interview. And basically, I was interviewing a 12-year-old kid. That was very damaged. Was it off right when he got there? How long did you have to talk to him before it just totally broke? He started crying pretty quickly. I mean, he wanted to talk. He'd never talk to anybody about this.

And there were some people that really wanted to talk to me. Because I had a list of 60 alleged victims put together by that investigator. And some of them really wanted to talk to me. talk to me and some of them would never talk to me. And they were hard to find. A lot of these kids were really, really hard to find because they're not, like, they're like Roo. They've lived this subterranean lifestyle. And they don't generally, well, a lot of times they don't use a social security number. So they're hard to find. Why don't they use a social security number? Because they're involved in illegal activities. Yeah, I, I, I, I, I, I, I,

I can't imagine, especially like, because his whole life went totally off the rails as a result of all the things that happened to him. And he knows that. He did. Yeah. And then to realize that something like that went unpunished that those people were not only doing it, but they were probably doing it at the behest of other people. I mean, that network was protected by state law enforcement and federal law enforcement. That's insane. It's a lot, you know,

Epstein is a carbon copy of the Franklin scandal. Why did they, in your estimation, before we get to Epstein, why do powerful people in places use this? Why do they use sexual abuse of children as a main range? to get what they want? Well, child abuse is in every strata. There are child traffickers like Jeffrey Epstein living in a mansion

on the Upper East Side. There are child traffickers living in a trailer park on the outskirts of Kansas City. I mean, predators are all around us. but the predators that we're talking about with the Franklin scandal and also with Epstein, those predators are protected because they're compromised. And I've used this analogy a number of times over the years. Because when I first talked to that blackmail photographer,

I was trying to get my mind around all this. How does this work? You don't really read about it in a book. I mean, now you can, but prior to my book, he couldn't really read about it. And he said, once you're compromised, it's like you're on a yacht. And it's a beautiful yacht.

And it's a beautiful day. And you can have anything you want on the yacht. But if you decide to get off the yacht, the people on the yacht are going to make sure that you drown. So people that are politicians that are blackmailed like this, they're going to go along to get along because if footage of their perversions was released, it would be, that'd be the end of them.

So you're saying that there's a psychological thing that happens where they go, oh, fuck, I'm caught, and they're upset about it, but then their captive goes, no, no, no, we're your friends. Don't worry, you're just going to work with us now and it's all good, and then they give them the best food, give them the best amenities and all that, and they begin to actually like the people

that hold something over them. Well, they become those people. Right. And I'll give you a couple of examples. Dennis Hastert was Speaker of the House for six years or so, seven years. Now, there was a FBI whistleblower named Sebel Edmonds,

who had said that Hastert had a shadow life. And with Hastert, years after some years after he got out of politics he was busted because and here's the thing he was a wrestling coach in high school and he had molested a i guess a number of young men and one of them was blackmailing hastur and the FBI arrested hastor instead of the blackmailer so for some reason, Hastert got off the yacht. And I think that he got too greedy. He was making millions and millions of dollars as a lobbyist. And I think that he thought, well, I'm Dennis Hastert, Speaker of the House. And I think he forgot that he was on the yacht. I mean, that's what I think.

And then there's Larry Craig. He was in D.C. for 25 years. And first, as a representative from Oregon and then as a, or Idaho, and then as a senator. And I wrote a book called Confessions of a DC man, The Politics of Sex, Lies, and Blackmail. And I wrote it with a guy who ran a gay escort service in D.C. And the CIA assets would use his gay escorts to compromise people. So the CIA assets would. Yes. Yes.

Meaning not direct case officers and stuff, but people that assets shared information with them. So this guy, his name is Larry Craig, and he was a senator. And so he was getting escorts from Henry Vincent, who I wrote the book with. But then there was a documentary that came out called Outrage. And it was about how gay politicians or closet politicians vote against gay rights. And Craig had one of the worst records. And the makers of that, the director was Kirby Dick. The maker of that documentary, he,

found other escorts that had been with Craig that weren't provided by Henry Vinson. And ultimately, what happened to Craig was he was in a bathroom in Minneapolis, and he tried to pick up a vice squad cop. And this is a U.S. Senator, and he got arrested. And I'm from Minneapolis. I go there once a year for Thanksgiving. And I was in a a stall sitting on a commode and someone was slapping their foot on the ground. That's the signal that Craig must have, you know, that triggered Craig. But someone was slapping their foot on the ground. And, I mean, really hard.

And I had no idea. I thought they had a neurological disorder. And I'm just, I'm just fortunate that I didn't say, could I help you? Yeah, there have been some come through the hole in the fucking stall. So it's not that difficult to compromise these guys and get them on the yacht. I mean, when a political system is as compromised as ours or has people that are as compromised as ours, we end up with the kind of leaders that we're ending up with. Yeah, I think there's really something to be said for that. And I don't think, like if people deny that at this point,

they're not facing reality. I think for a long time, especially in the pre-social media era, which is when you were working on this story, by the way, you know, and the pre-internet era, obviously, before that, these things, it was much easier to cover them up because there couldn't be some, you know, late-night commenter making a post that went viral because people go, what the fuck, you know, and they could just kind of shove things under the rug. And for a long time, there was a very easy way to compromise powerful people. and it was using their worst weaknesses against them. And I go so far as to think that they kind of,

there's a certain type of person they target to put into those offices. Like they know, they know this kind of person's, you know, whether it's going to be someone who's a molester or someone like, the guy Swalwell who, you know, was just raping women, you know, like as far as I know they were of age, but, you know, nonetheless, the allegations are that he was, he was a serial sexual offender, like there's a type of person they want in there. From what I've seen, there is the personality type that ends up in Washington, D.C.

is very similar to the personality type that ends up in Hollywood. Hmm. Highly, highly predatory. Highly predatory. Yeah. I need some more wine. Oh, yeah. I got you right here.

That's interesting. I mean, there's things that people would have said, including with the Franklin scandal, by the way. I believe when that, I mean, you even pointed out they were charged in the victims just for making their claims. But when it came out and got any attention, it was called a giant hoax. And I think publicly even assessed that way. And I think what we've seen is that it's not to say every single claim that's ever been made about anything ever therefore is true. But in the last 10 years especially, we've seen so many things that people.

would have or actually did laugh away as like, yeah, no way, suddenly be proven as, wow, that's at least a lot more true than false or in some cases exactly what we thought it was. And the Franklin scandal is one of those things that's like you were all so early to after it had been called a hoax, but before anyone was really talking about it. And sounds like it's, it's unfortunately aging well. well the thing about it is when the franklin scantle got published i i live in new york city i live in the mecca of publishing and i had a bunch of friends that weren't publishing and some one of them was like a superstar journalist who had known for minneapolis and no one wanted to touch this story when did you first

start trying to sell it a few years into the investigation probably about 2004 yeah and no one would touch it no one would touch it but i was saying that the government was covering up child trafficking and child molestation. And people weren't ready for that message. They weren't ready for it. And then people would Google it. And Wikipedia has really done the Franklin Scandal, a major disservice. Because there are Wikipedia editors that have locked that page down. You cannot make any kind of changes to that page. And it reads nonsensical. Yeah, it's the CIA of Pedia. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm glad you know that because that pages.

And there was a production company that option, the Franklin Scandal. And they've made a lot of movies, really good movies. And I was having lunch with the president one day. And when is this? This was, I don't know, probably 10 years ago or so. Oh, so after True Detective. Yeah, they optioned it. Well, he read it and he was blown away by it.

I mean, the Franklin scandal is really, really well-sourced and meticulous. And so they optioned it. And then he told me, because he and other people, one was an Emmy Award-winning producer. They had tried to sell it. We'd worked very hard on trying to sell it. And no one would touch it. And he said before, he said to me, as long as that Wikipedia page is going to be the way it is, you're never going to be able to sell that and sell it in Hollywood because people in Hollywood don't.

Now, he didn't say this, but people in Hollywood don't read. And I'll give you an example. I, right after the Franklin Scannell was published, I was short on funds. I really thought I could go to Hollywood. I networked. I thought I could, I was, I had like three meetings a day. How did you end up getting published, by the way? Who published it?

A small press in Oregon published at Trine Day. And they're the kind of the last house on the left for anybody that wants to publish a book. Okay. So they get to publish. You go out to Hollywood. And I'm pitching it. I'm pitching it as a documentary. I'm pitching it as a narrative movie, feature film.

And I had a buddy that was, it was one of the young Turks in Hollywood, but his career kind of ran afoul because of drug addiction. But he knew a bunch of young executives that had juice. And I met with one of them. They were kind of partners. I met with one of them. And we met at a coffee shop.

I gave him the book. And, you know, we talked. And he could see that I was saying. And then about three days later, I get an email from my buddy who has run a phone. Because they've looped him into their conversation. And they're discussing what's true about the Franklin Scandal and what's not true about the Franklin Scandal. And neither one had read it. So that's what we're dealing with.

How long was the book? It's live. If you take, there was a lot of documents that we put in it because some of those documents are just so mind-blowing. But it's, I think it's around 500 pages. Yeah. There are a lot of things with you and your story in reporting that are reminiscent of Tom O'Neill and his journey during chaos. You guys have a very. similar background and it's the same kind of thing in the sense that you both started on a little

weed you know like that you're pulling on like oh this is interesting and then it balloons into this whole thing once the dam gets broken and you both ended up basically sacrificing long periods of your career to do this against all odds when it was not also as it would turn out especially financially smart for you to do so because so many people would turn it down, whether it be for features or just in general, like even to fucking publish the thing. And I think it's pretty amazing that the two of you in your separate story, his case obviously dealing with the Manson murders and all the downstream effects of that. And you dealing with Franklin scandal and eventually Epstein, you know, have both been vindicated in the long term in a lot of ways.

Well, you know, I've got this funny notion that a lot of lot of people in publishing and the media don't have. And it kind of surprised me. I believe that children shouldn't be molested with impunity. You know, it's a good notion. Yeah. And I've met many people through the years that did not share my belief in that area. I'm not really aware of any major media that's come out and said, we need justice for the Epstein victims. The mainstream media is very good at mass producing salaciousness. But they're really, really bad when it comes to demanding justice for the victims. Is it in your estimation, having been to a lot of these places as well and spoken with a bunch

of these people over the years, do you think it's because a lot of the people that are actually in mainstream media genuinely don't give a fuck about the worst kinds of abuse? Or do you think it's because the space is totally captured by interest where they don't even have a say in the matter? So I think it's a little bit of both. Yeah. You've got a case. Chris Hedges was a superstar at the New York Times, won a Pulitzer Prize.

Chris Hedges? Yeah. And he knew, he told me that, and I believe this, a number of people knew that when Bush came out with that Saddam Hussein has weapons of mass destruction, a lot of people knew it was bullshit. And I mean, it was being deconstructed almost in real time on the internet. And he said the emperor has no clothes. And he got fired. He got fired for that. Chris Hedges.

Let's pull that up. Good for him. He stood on business. New York Times fired him because he said, I think they're wrong. Well, yeah. I mean, it was very obvious to all of them. But what did you tell you made it obvious at the time? I mean, it's very obvious now, but like when he saw it while it was happening.

He was reporting in the Middle East. So he knew he was pretty plugged into that area. And then there, a friend of mine was an editor at a large magazine. And he's a free thinker. And the people that worked at that magazine were on a reservation that they didn't even know they were on. Their minds were so myopic that, and they didn't even know that. Imagine that being so in your own world that you don't even know that you're Truman. I mean, his boss didn't believe that there was blackmail going on with the Epsine case.

I mean, that's how naive she was. Your friend. My friend's boss. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then my friend would, would, like, submit an article by me, like, once a year or so. And I wrote a book about Watergate. You did.

At the heart of Watergate is a CIA honey trap. That's how I got turned on to the underside of the Watergate story. When did you write that book? It came out a couple years ago, two or three years ago. It's a good book. Yeah, I might check it out. So, I had a lot. of evidence that Bob Woodward is a pathological liar or serial liar. I don't know the difference,

but he lies a lot. And I nailed him in his Watergate reporting. He lies a lot. Can you explain some of the things he would lie about? Well, he said that there was this omniscient source deep-throat that gave him all this information. and deep throat Mark felt who he said was deep throat could have given him some information but there's no way and then Woodward said that

Woodward said that he would move the flower pot on his balcony and that would signal deep throat to meet that night and then they'd have this would take all these cabs and things like that. They meet at a parking lot in Virginia.

So, Mark felt during this period had been fired by the FBI. And so... And he wasn't, Mark felt wasn't revealed until he died, I believe, right? Yeah, after he had Alzheimer's. And like I said, I'm sure he gave over some information.

But, so we're supposed to believe that the dude drove into Washington, D.C. every day and looked at World Warwood's balcony. But here's the thing about Warra's balcony. It was in the back of the building. It was facing like a courtyard. So you would

have to, you would have to drive into the alley and get onto your car and walk probably about 60 feet and look directly up. Or he had a trap house across. And then if Deethroot wanted to contact

Woodward, he would put on a certain page of the New York Times, he'd put a clock there about at the time that they want to meet. So he would draw a clock and leave the Times at his front porch? Okay, so, but at that apartment building, everybody, all the New York Times were put into a pile and everybody just got. So there's so much line. And Alexander Hague was really the source that was the death now. Who was Alexander Hague? He was Nixon's chief of staff. He didn't like Nixon.

You know what's funny? We look at Watergate now. And obviously it was like this thing where there was lies and cover-ups and they literally broke in and stole some shit. But you compare it to the shit we have now. It's a Tuesday. I mean, Nick, a month and a half ago, the White House Situation Room tapes were leaked to the New York Times.

Nobody's talking about it. That would be like a biblical scandal in any other era. but we are so inundated with there is so much noise of such insane no fucking way that's actually true but oh my god it's true stories that's something like watergate today i don't even know if it would make the front page watergate wouldn't even be a blip right today and Nixon actually listened to the court and surrendered the tapes i don't think any president recently would actually have surrendered the tapes. So would have listened to the course.

Yeah, and then their attorney general would go in front of the fucking Senate and be like, yeah, why are you breaking the law? Because we want to. Okay, no further questions. It's like, what the fuck, man? Well, as I was saying earlier, when you've got a lot of compromised people

in the government, you're going to end up with the government that we have. They're not. So, you had the weapons of mass destruction line. No heads rolled. You had the financial meltdown, destroyed millions of Americans, millions of Americans less than a hundred, no heads rolled. That's right. COVID. Well, you had Snowden's disclosures about how we're being illegally spied on. No heads rolled. And then you've got very strong evidence that that virus came out of the Wuhan lab.

No heads rolled. And USAID and the CDC were finding it. And chances are it was gain of function. No heads rolled. So Americans have to quit eating shit. Yes. I mean, as Americans, our government is destroying us. and we have to quit eating shit.

And I think and I think that there's two factors involved with this. I think that Americans have been conditioned to believe that they can't affect change. And Americans have been conditioned to hate the other side. The right thinks the left is madly ill and the left thinks the right is mentally ill.

Yes. At this point, I mean, that's where it's descended to. Yes. So that's an easy divide and conquer. Between Americans believing that they can affect change and then this divide and conquer. And as long as we have that, we're never going to be able to see democracy. Yeah, I get a little cynical about this.

I have to admit it. And for a lot of the same reasons that you just laid out. the one place where I'm like maybe there's a light at the end of the tunnel is the recent trend I've seen this year when the late and we'll talk about it obviously in a little bit but when the latest tranche of Epstein documents dropped in the end of January and then when we went to a war with Iran at the end of February there are now two major issues that the farthest ends of spectrum on the left and the right, whether they like this or not, agree on. I mean, my show, it's really unique in the sense that we have a really balanced audience,

which I think is so fucking cool. But I will see back-to-back DMs from people who are clearly hardcore liberal and then clearly hardcore conservative, saying that maybe they say it a little different, but saying the same things. And I can't think of a time in the last decade where that. was really the case. And so I do wonder, you talk about we have to stop eating shit. I completely agree.

It's a great point. And the cynic of me says people are still going to complain and then go home and watch their Netflix and, you know, get on with life. But there are enough people that even now sitting here in end of July, beginning of August, that are still pissed about this stuff that is now, you know, five, six months old, which in today's society apparently is very old, that it's like, maybe this is like the ember they just can't quite put out. Maybe this is a moment where we could have that.

Do you think that's possible? What makes the Epstein issue dangerous to our leaders is that the right and the left can agree that children shouldn't be molested with impurities. That's right. I mean, the right and the left can't agree on much, but they can agree on this. And I started an organization called Epstein Justice or a 501C3. And our goal is to get an independent congressional commission to investigate Epstein. And we're going to need a lot of people.

We're going to need a lot of help. But an independent congressional commission can decouple itself from the political system. What we see now in the political system, we know that the current administration isn't going to indict anyone because of their Epstein involvement. I mean, it's demonstrated that time and time again. I agree. But then you've got the Democrats having these quote-unquote shadow hearings where they're allowing these Epstein co-conspirators to lie to them. I mean, I'll give you an example.

Les Wexner said the last time he ever dealt with Epstein was 2006 when they've got emails from 2008. And then Epstein gave Wexner 51,000. million dollars or 56 million dollars in 2011 now i don't care how rich you are you don't forget about 56 million dollars so we know that the current administration isn't going to die but those democrats what they can do is put in referrals for indictments they could take that perjured testimony and put in referrals for indictments so it's at least on record so that individual is potentially can be prosecuted. And they're not even doing that. That's a dog and pony show. And the only way,

and I believe this, the only way we're going to get justice, and I think we can do it, I think enough Americans can come together on this, is an independent congressional commission that decouples itself from the political system. As long as this is hooked up to the political system, we're never going to have justice. Can you explain how that would work? Because when I hear that and I'm sure when a lot of people out there are hearing that, they still hear congressional. So it's still in the middle of D.C. It's still in the middle of the belly of the beast. What's going to make this particular setup you have in mind different? With independent congressional commissions, investigations and other issues are

farmed out to people that aren't government personnel. Like who? like investigators uh wherever people's expert whatever whatever whatever that independent congressional commission is about a lot of times they're farmed out to people who are experts in that particular so people might think of like the mueller invested investigation though and be like well that

that worked well no that was not that was not an independent congressional commission but he was a special prosecutor brought in separately and then it was a shit show right yeah Yeah, independent congressional commissions are, okay, so they require majority in the House and majority in the Senate. And I think that we can shame our politicians into giving us an independent, because with Mueller, he was still connected to the political system. Of course. Whereas what we're proposing, and this is the only way we're going to get any kind of justice, is an independent congressional commission. All right, so let me ask you this. I hate, I'm sorry, I hate to be cynical on this issue, though. I often do with cynical people.

I have to admit I am just because of what we've seen. But like they do that, whoever gets appointed to help with that process, whether it's three people or five people, 10, but whatever it is, they're all humans, they all got flaws, and they all think they have constitutional rights until they start going to places

that just aren't convened for the people that decide who has constitutional rights and who doesn't. And some of those people that get appointed to the commission that maybe someone like you, successfully helps lobby to get, you know, gets put on it, and then they get a call from someone with no pun intended, a very deep throat of voice that says, listen up, motherfucker. You ain't fine in shit.

Here's what you're going to do. What stops that from happening? Well, for example, if I was on that commission, I would make sure that it was to the letter of the law. Okay. And there are other people like me. I hate to be this guy, but that's awesome. But let's say you get named to that commission. Okay. And you've proven your whole career that you're willing to investigate things all the way down to the detail, which is incredible. And you should be commended for that. But what's to say the first day that you're not, that you're named the head of that, you know, they don't say everything you ever love is going to die if you don't do X, Y, or Z. I have, have. had a death threat and I've had a lot of strange phone calls. Actually, I'm in the Epstein files. When I got the Black Book in 2011, I started calling victims first, but then I started calling

Epstein's inner circle. Like who? Well, the one that I got a hold of was Sarah Callum. I knew it. And she wanted to commiserate with me how poorly the media had treated her. And I wasn't really down with that. So our conversation wasn't very prolonged. But it just so happens that someone sent an email, their name is redacted, to Epstein's inner circle whose names aren't redacted.

There's this journalist, Nick Bryant, be aware of him. this is what he looks like. And they had a picture of me that they dispensed. So I thought that that. And then actually there were three emails about me. One said alert. And so obviously. Can we pull that up deep on jmail.org?

But there are courageous people that will not back down from threats. I mean, there's a lot. I've met a lot of them over the years. Yeah, Gary Webb, guys like that, and then they end up dead. Well, Gary Webb, unfortunately, I have a chance to believe that he killed himself. He was bipolar and he'd rank a lot. But there are, Tom O'Neill is a guy that just hung in there for, I mean, he spent 20 years of his life on chaos. But I've met a lot of courageous people over the years.

And it wouldn't be hard to get a number of courageous people together. Here you go. October 11th, 2011, 12, 24 p.m., two unknown. Just a heads up. There's a journalist calling around again. His name is Nick Bryant. This is what he looks like, so you are all aware. I guess they had your picture attached.

And then LVJet at AOL.com responded, yes, thank you. I told Darren, referring to Darren Indyke, I assume, yesterday. He called me. This is his cell number to look out for. Heads up. I got the number off my caller ID. Thanks. Then unknown responds again. Yep, same number. He called my cell. Go ahead, down. Diff, is there more there? That's it. Do we have any others? I wonder who the unknown is. There are two others. Do you know who the unknown is right there? I don't know. Okay. It's interesting that it's unknown. And then this one is label is redacted, which I assume is just they made it in the Gmail format. But, That means it was actually blacked out on the actual file. So it says, when is the FBI going to come clean as the subject header? Although this is from this is from 2025. So this is an email that went to Epstein's email for some reason long after the fact. Is that fair to say, Dief?

I can't really see. Yeah, but there's a couple other emails where one of Epstein's hench woman is telling Epstein to call me. Okay, Leslie Groff go up. Leslie Groff right there, call list. Okay, so to Jeffrey Epstein from Leslie Groff on October 11th at 351 p.m. So it's three hours later after those first emails, I believe, if I have the date right. It says Bill Shore, Saul, Woman, Mark Packer, Chris Knight, Barbro, Nick Bryant. And then I guess that's listing the EFTA is just the listing what document this was from in the files. Is that like a little, is it also creepy to you to see this that like this dude knew you were looking into him and was looking back at you?

I've been at this a long time. Here's how I look at it. A couple ice cream sandwiches. Actually, I had one yesterday. But I wasn't stressed. I'm going to do what I'm going to do. Yeah. And my adversaries are going to do what they're going to do.

That's what I, that's how I play the game of life. Did you want to be a journalist when you were growing up? No, not at all. I took one journalism class in college and I thought it was the most boring thing I'd ever, I studied philosophy in college. Yeah, so what happened? How'd you end up here then? Well, okay, so I went to Greg.

graduate school and I was recruited out of graduate school to write papers, for lack of a better word, that pertain to biomedical ethics. Biomedical ethics, okay. And there were academic papers, and some of them were on fairly esoteric stuff like interstitial justice theory, which is a lot like game theory, except it uses words instead of numbers. And I also wrote a book when I was in academia, and it pertained to a lower socialization. through economic children. So that's something that I children is a topic that is near and dear to me. I had a difficult childhood the first time I ran away. I was 12. You grew up in in Minneapolis? Yeah. I became kind of a street kid. So what what what what made you a street kid so young? Um, I had a stepfather that, uh, didn't appreciate me.

And he could be violent. So children's issues, I'm not, you know, I'd written a lot about children's issues before I ever started writing about this. And so I think it's funny when someone says, well, he's a conspiracy theorist. I've written all kinds of stuff about children's issues and I've never, that have been published in very good journals. And I've never been accused of a conspiracy. I've never been accused of being a conspiracy theorist. Until you went to the things that they actually care about. That's right.

Until the Frankl's got. So did you, that's really cool, though, because you took your own personal experiences that were really tough for you and went out to find other kids who through different lenses may have had really difficult experiences to see if you could check. light on that and help prevent it for more in the future. Well, I mean, the first time I ran away, I was 12, and I'm glad I didn't get very far because 12-year-olds, I was very susceptible to being preyed upon. Sure. By the time I was 14 or 15, I was cynical and I was fairly big, so I didn't really worry about it. Where'd you run when you were 12? I made it to the highway, and I was walking along

the highway. I didn't know about hitchhiking. I knew. I had to get out of the house that night out of self-preservation. What happened? My stepfather was beating me up in a living room. And my mother said that he shouldn't hit me with a close fist. And then I went, whoa, you know, I'm not, I'm not safe here in this environment. So that's when I took off. But getting back to your question, I,

So I really, I took these journalism, one journalism class. I thought it was really boring. Why did you think it was boring? It just was. And I love philosophy. I love philosophy. And I'd take philosophy classes because I found them very, very interesting. What was interesting about them?

To come across thinkers like Plato or Aristotle, I'm a Kantian. Kant is, I mean, when you talk about great philosophers, you've got, you can start out with Plato and Aristotle. And then I think that the next jump would probably be Kant as far as the greatest philosopher. What made him so great? He, Emmanuel Kant, there was a movement in philosophy called rationalists. rationalists said that we can discern the truth, we have like the capacity to discern the truth. And then there was the empiricists that said you can only discern the truth by measuring things.

That you need empirical validation. So what Kant did is he combined the two. And he said that we've got these innate mechanisms, mental mechanisms. But to validate it, we also need empirical, which gives us the ability to empirically evaluate something. So Kant took the rationalists and the empiricists, which were very different camps and was able to combine them. And the book I wrote when I was in academia, I used a lot of Kantian. morality. Kant's morality is there's a utilitarian morality, which is the most good for the most people. And if you're a Jew and Germany utilitarian morality doesn't really, or ethics doesn't

really work that well for you. Right. Now, Kant said, he came out with a categorical imperative, and he said, if you make an action or a statement, quantify that to the rest of the the human race and see if there's a contradiction. If you kill someone, if everybody killed everybody, then there would be nobody to kill. So that would be contradictory. So basically, it's Kant's formula for the golden rule. And his philosophy just blew me away. I had lived with an Indian guru when I was 19. a genuine Indian guru. And he, what we learn there is that there's two realities.

There's the reality that we see, which is an illusion, and then there's reality. True reality. Now, Kant would say that there are true realities. There's the phenomenological reality, what we see, and actually a whole philosophy has kind of predicated on phenomenology. I mean, a lot of the philosophy goes back to Kant one way or the other. But what Kant said is that what we see is the phenomenological reality,

but with inside is the numeral reality that we cannot perceive. So that really rang true to me because I studied Eastern philosophy when I lived with this guru when I was 19. And I really do believe that that's the case, is that what we see is really just a very small portion of what the reality is. Take this glass, E equals MC squared. This glass has that mass, C equals MC squared is like 300,000 meters per second. So squared is like 900,000 meters per second. Okay?

So this glass has the energy of 900,000. thousand meters per second. And it just looks like a glass to us. But this, this glass could power New York for quite some time. It has, it has the energy to empower to power New York for quite some time. So when you, and that's that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's Einstein's special relativity. And so I'm a proponent of Einstein. He wasn't a very good father and he wasn't a very good husband, but hell of a physicist. Kind of like O.J. Simpson. Hell of a running back, but not a very good father or husband.

Oh, that's such a stray. That's such a stray Einstein's catching right there. So, and I'd always believe that. And then I read Kant, and he explained that to me, why we just see the phenomenological realm compared to the thing in itself. He called that the numeral realm. So I was, yeah, I just, I was blown away by Emmanuel Khan, his philosophy. And you didn't particularly, you like the philosophy and you didn't particularly like the journalism class,

but then you start writing these biomedical ethics papers for someone, I forget who you said it was. I was actually employed by the University of Minnesota Medical School. Okay. For those. But here's the thing. Here's what happened. You know, I was writing these esoteric papers, and people in academia would read them. They were good papers.

I had a bunch of papers published, and Poizanna had a book published. But they were very abstract. I mean, you would need, you know, almost like a PhD to understand them. And then there was a woman who ran. an organization in Minneapolis who said that serial killers, that there was a serial killer killing prostitutes in Minneapolis. And she was kind of crazy, so the media didn't listen to her and law enforcement didn't listen to her. But then I knew someone who knew someone that was a prostitute, and she had said that there was a serial killer killing prostitutes.

And we were talking about this earlier. So I went to work. I got this long list of women that had been beaten, stabbed, or strangled. And it was the, wasn't their name. It was when they were born and how they died and on the date that they died. And then I went to the databases of the,

Star Tribune, Minneapolis Star Tribune, and St. Paul Pioneer Press. And I put that information in. And then the article would come up about a woman. So I put together, I believe, 38 women that have been stabbed, strangled, or beaten to death in the previous, like eight years. And I went to, I had the list, and I went to the Minneapolis police and I said, are you sure you want to say that there's no serial killer and they thought, well, yeah, I don't know, maybe, I don't know. And then I went to the St. Paul Police head of homicide and I said, are you sure you want to say there's no serial killer? And he said, well, you know, there could be. And then a task force was formed to catch that serial killer. How old are you when this is happening? I was about 32, 33. So,

yeah, 34. So I write this one article about. I been writing academic papers for five years and nothing is getting done. And then I write this one article and then a task force is formed. And that led me to journalism. It couldn't have been that long after that when you came into the Franklin scandal story, right? Well, I moved to New York City in 1995 to pursue just a freelance journalism career. And then I stumbled across that finder's report. started digging into Franklin Scandot when I was in 2002. And you were traveling a bunch to Omaha to cover that story and then coming back to New York and writing up your research and trying to put together what eventually became the book.

Yes. Okay. So you get the book published eventually by a publisher out in Oregon because no one would take it. And you're still living in New York City. And I mean, that's also crazy too because you were sacrificing yourself financially for so long, even to be able to still stay in New York City with all that. you said it was in 2011 though when you got a hold of the black book is that right yeah the franklin scandal was actually published in 2009 2010 um there's if you look at the first page it says

2012 or something because we made some changes to it but um but it was published 2009 2010 and uh and i was really in dire straits financial because I put all this money and time into writing this book. And we couldn't give them away because the fact that the government would cover up a child trafficking network was anathema to people. If you cover up a crime, you aid and abet that crime. So the fact that our government would aid and abet child sex trafficking, that was not a message people wanted to hear. But what I saw happening in Florida was very similar to what was happening in Omaha,

because there were a number of girls that came forward at that point, and a grand jury declared that not a single child had been abused. And I've since acquired that grand jury testimony. And what Lanabelle Lovic, she was a, which she was a special prosecutor, which she did was just malignant. She called two of the victims. The law enforcement was aware of multiple victims.

They were aware of over 40. Well, at that point, the feds, yeah, when the feds got in. So she called two. One had been 14 when she was molested by Epstein. She was now 16. And one had been, was 16. She'd been molested multiple times by Epstein. She was now 18.

And she just destroyed. them. And really, really, you can go to ebsteinjustice.com. I do a takedown of that. How did she destroy them? She called in law enforcement people that just undermined their credibility. How'd they do that? Saying that they were on drugs and, you know, that type of thing. Real quick, Nick, when did you, because obviously this was all going on in 0506, 07, 09, Epstein's case, when did you first hear about it at all? Do you remember what year that was? I was still working on the Franklin scandal. Right.

So maybe like 07, 08? Yeah, it could have been 08, 09. And then I called up someone at the Palm Beach Post, and I tried to talk to her about it. actually I made a few calls and she just couldn't explain it and I thought to myself well you know I mean the guy molested all these girls and the grand jury said that he hadn't molested any girls I mean don't you think it requires a little more investigation and she didn't seem to be willing to she just said well this is kind of an anomaly it's kind of weird it's an anomaly yeah I'm using my terminology.

Yeah, yeah. But basically said, yeah, it's an anomaly. We just... So you start looking at it, though, in concert with what you were doing with the Franklin scandal because you're like it's the same thing. Well, with the Franklin scandal, there were two cooked juries and two bullshit juries in Nebraska. And then with this, this is obviously a bullshit jury coming out of Florida. And then I was broke.

But I just couldn't let go. I knew that Epstein was like Franklin. I just had this high-powered intuition. And then I went down to Florida and 2011. And then I got the Black Book. Now, Epstein used euphemisms for victims. He said massage, under massage. There's all kinds of girls.

and yeah we were looking through the black book this morning and like I said I hadn't looked at in a little while but like under the Florida one I mean yeah there's all the different states there's a bunch of them yeah but there's like yeah just 80 yeah right there and you're looking at this and a lot of it's redacted and you're like statistically speaking many of these numbers or girls well I I didn't have the redacted I had their phone numbers I had everybody's phone numbers so I I started to call them first because you need, if there's a child driving network, you need victims. I mean, so I called the victims first.

And the first call was very strange because I talked to a woman whose daughter had been molested by Epstein when she was 13. And she wanted to help me. I said, I'm a journalist. I'm looking at it. She wanted to help me. But she didn't want her kid to, so she asked her kid questions. She didn't want her kid to talk to you.

Yes. Okay. She wanted to make sure that like everything was appropriate. That's right. So I asked the mother questions and then the dog. her answered him and then the mother. So, and she was still very young. I mean, she was 13 at that when she was Melissa by Epstein. Although there are younger people that, and we've seen that now with the files. But then I called a woman who said that she'd been flown around and flown to an island.

And we weren't aware of an island at that point. So that wasn't in any, that wasn't discussed at any point during his initial case, like in the court records, they didn't mention the fact that he owned an island? Not that I know of. Isn't that kind of crazy? You have a guy that you're bringing to trial for the worst kind of thing, and they're not listing off his various assets that include a eugenics ranch in Zorro, the fucking crazy mansion in Ohio that the farmer girls, Maria and her sister were abused at.

And then obviously something like the island. Like, I would think that's kind of like top of mind. That investigation, the only people that put together a valid investigation was the Palm Beach Police Department. When it got, when, okay, what happened was so the Palm Beach Police Department put together that investigation, and it had a bunch of them, they knew of a bunch of girls. They had five onrage girls, statements, five, but they knew of many more. And when that grand jury came back and said that Jeffrey Epstein hadn't molested a single minor, Michael Ryder, who is the unsung hero of this, the unsung hero, he was chief of the Palm Beach Police Department, he became very vociferous. And he went to the U.S. attorney, who was Alexander

O'Cost, said, you've got to investigate this. And that's, and then the FBI went. went to work. And the FBI did, in fact, well, there's a list of like 36 victims, but they knew of 40 or more. And the FBI worked very, very hard to really bring this. There was a, there was a draft that had, I think, 60 indictments. And one of, by the feds. And one of those indictments was, uh, there was a, um, a draft that had, I think 60 indictments. And one of, uh, by the feds. And one of those indictments was, uh, child trafficking, which is a heavy sentence in the federal system. It's 15 to life. So that's what Maxwell was inheld with.

And so there was this draft, I think it was 60 indictments. And all of a sudden, Alexander Acosta says, oh, we're going to do this differently. we're not going to indict Jeffrey Epstein on any counts of jail molestation. We're going to have the state do it. But then we're going to give immunity to all his co-conspirators. So that's how that works. Which would include like Sarah Kellyn. Sarah Kellan was actually named as one of the co-cons.

But all of them. And what happened, and this is, I believe, what happened, Acosta was told that Epstein was intelligence and that he had to stand down. And the government, there's only two people that can tell a U.S. attorney to stand down. One is the attorney general, one is the president. And at that point, the attorney general was Alberto Gonzalez, and the president was George Bush, the cognitively challenged Bush. Yeah, Bush too.

So. So that was how it played out. Now, an attorney general isn't going to cover up a big pedophile network without his boss telling him. Attorney generals aren't going to go out on a limb like that. Which is also not how the job's supposed to work, but unfortunately, that's how it's worked for at least the last decade and a half. Well. Or 25 years, sir. We could really get into history there, but I don't think we have the time.

Oh, yeah. It goes back farther. I just think it's, I think the court, the horse completely left the, left the station and when Bush was in office. So Alexander Acosta stands down. And then the state of Florida and I, it's Jeffrey Ebson, one kind of adult solicitation and unlawful sexual activity was a minor, which I think is potentially 15 years or 20 years, but he gets 18 months and he does 13, and he has like a little sweet in the...

Oh, yeah, we went through the details a couple weeks ago on the show. Yeah. Insane. Yeah. And he wasn't really confined there during the day that long. No. But when he was, and I've got a good source on this,

they had a special room form where he'd meet with his paralegals and his paralegals were generally very young women in their 20s. Yep. And at least one of them came forward, Dief. Yes, one of them did come forward. One of her name was released. She talked in that article we were referencing on the show.

It's just like, you know, I look at a guy like Alexander Acosta, who, as you said, had the famous line of like, no, I was told he's intelligence back off. And it's like, last I checked, I haven't looked at this in a while. I'm pretty sure he has at least a couple daughters. And he's got two daughters. Okay, he's got two. And he's not only stepped aside on this and said, whatever, but even despite knowing that and knowing the specifics of this case and what he had said, all right, too, with that,

he had the audacity to try to continue his political career successfully as well, eventually, obviously becoming the labor secretary under Trump one. And I just, you know, I'm really glad I can't relate to these people on these things, but the cognitive dissonance you have to have to continue your little climb up the political ladder after knowing you let something like that go. Even if you were a little scared, okay, but you let it go. And then to have the audacity to accept a role as to use the Labor Secretary. Well, that's how it works. I mean, he was on the yacht. I mean, you can get on the yacht for selling your grandmother, too.

I mean, if you're willing to make. But in Acosta's defense, he did not, he was somewhat recalcitrant about that deal. And Ken Starr and a bunch of FBI people, it's in the files, came and put the heat on him, too. Ken Starr, who was the attorney on the Clinton impeachment trial. Yeah, who ostensibly prosecuted Bill Clinton. Yeah. That was a, I mean, Epstein had like a, who were all his attorneys? It was Dershowitz.

Who the hell else? Did he have black on there? Left court, Ken Starr, Dershowitz. Yeah. That's another thing. It's like, oh, this guy just hired a better legal team than fucking O.J. Simpson did for a pedophile case and no one's talking about it. It's kind of interesting. Well, the mainstream media has been asleep at the wheeler negligent about this case.

Yeah. And I find it tragic that the media is the way it is. And I'm kind of an outsider to the media. I mean, I didn't take, I only took one journalism class. I've never been on a staff of a publication. So I've always been able to approach things the way that I want to approach. And think for yourself. And yeah, free thinking goes in the mix.

But like I said earlier, there are people at magazines and at newspapers, and they're on a reservation that they don't even know they're on. Yeah. Yep. And then you see people, and I don't know where personally, but I do find it interesting that someone like Tara Palmeri, who was ostensibly in mainstream media for a long time and did these amazing podcasts back in 2020 on Epstein. and then on Maxwell, these two series she did, you know, there were, there was another stop after political where she was at puck.news, which was a newer kind of media platform, but now she's on her own independent. Yeah.

Banging this drum. And like, I don't know, I'd love to ask her about that because I kind of wonder if that's related. Like, she stepped off the reservation a little bit and they're like, what the fuck are you doing? And she went from someone who was like very much entrenched within the mainstream media and had developed all the right connections and was a rising star there to now she does well, but, you know, she's on her own. She's outside the system.

That's interesting. I've been on her show once. She's been fairly impressive in her investigation. It really comes down to conscience. You were talking about cognitive dissonance. By the time someone continually tramples their conscience, there isn't any cognitive dissonance anymore. I think Alexander Acosta reached a point where there really wasn't any cost. He accepted it.

Yeah, he accepted it. I always wonder what that's like because it's another example where you think of the movie scene of life. When you see these scenes, right, someone walks into Acosta's office and says, you're not going to, you know, they start talking about something normal and they say, what are you doing? What do you mean? What am I doing? You're not going to do this. What am I not going to do? You're not bringing charges.

This is way above you. like you swing from the neck if they start doing things like this. And the difference is when you're watching that in a movie, you know, there's a little piano in the background and the scary music and then they get up and the camera's close on fucking him and he's he's like breathing heavy and then he's like, what the fuck? And then it cuts to a new scene. But in real life, it's technically way less dramatic. It certainly feels like something. But it's just two people sitting there in silence like this, no music, no cameras, no bullshit. And one guy says, you're not going to do this. And he goes, what?

You're not going to do this. Okay. And then he lets it go. Well, I'm sure that there was a call from the Attorney General, too, and Alberta Gonzalez. Or maybe even the cognitively challenged George Bush. I could see that. Yeah.

But they had enough scandals at that point, but we don't need another. So Acosta was in a difficult position. And I think he felt. that he had to make this deal. Who knows what kind of threats. But then I'm sure that you might become Labor Secretary if you do this.

That's crazy. Well, I got some questions on this. I just got to go to the bathroom real quick. So we'll be right back. All right, we're back. So you had mentioned you eventually went down to Florida, 0809 when you were hearing about this case.

Went to Florida in 2011. I'm sorry. You went in 2011. You had first heard about the case in 2008, 2009, but when you went down to Florida, you started calling people included, like, with the massage victims as well, who were little girls, to be clear. But how did you, we started to talk about this earlier, how did you get your hands on the Black Book? What was the full process there? Like, from even finding out it exists to then

actually having it in your hands. There's an interesting story behind the Blackboard, even before I got it. Alfredo Rodriguez was Epstein's house manager. That's right. And he purloined the black book. Perloined? Stole the black book from Epstein. Stole a copy of it. And he called an attorney that was representing the victims, or at least two victims, I think at that point. And he said, I've got the Holy Grail. I'll sell it you for $50,000. That's it? 50,000? Come on, Alfredo. You know, Alfredo, Alfredo wasn't the brightest ball. Yeah. So the attorney called up the FBI and the FBI did a sting.

Yeah, I remember that. And then got the black book. Now, the reason why, remember I said the FBI found all those victims? And then the case got quashed. Those FBI agents were angry, really pissed that that Epstein had gotten away because they had found all the victims. So it obviously came from way. above them. So the FBI leaked it to the attorney. And I met with the attorney. That wasn't Brad Edwards, was it? It was Brad Edwards. It was Brad Edwards. Okay. And then I met with him a second time

and he said, well, this will help you in your investigation. So he gave you the physical black book and then you uploaded a PDF version of it? Yeah, well, I came back to New York. And I tried to sell it to a publisher or a platform. You had the physical book. Well, a copy of it. A copy of it. Okay. And no one wanted to touch it.

I mean, and I think when I was pitching Franklin, I had, there were a number of editors and publishers I could talk. And I had a pretty decent agent. But talk about cognitive dissonance. So I'd meet an editor. And I would talk to them about Franklin, and then I'd show them a list of all the victims. And I could just see the cognitive dissonance going down in their eyes. They would say to themselves,

this is a horrible story. I really need to help Nick Bryant. Or I can just write Nick Bryant off as crazy, have a nice meal with my family tonight. And all of them, I knew that most of them were going to go that round. I didn't think that all of them were going to go that route. So by the time I got the black book, I didn't have all the connections that I had when I was pitching for England, but I still had a number of connections.

And no one would touch it. No one would touch it. No one would touch it. And then I hooked up with John Cook at Gawker. And at that point, I had the flight logs too. he said, well, we'll do it. And who gave you the flight logs again? Another attorney. So it wasn't Brad. It was a different one. Not a different attorney. So it was another attorney for the victims, though? Mm-hmm. Okay. And did he give you that

probably on the basis at that point that he knew you had been the Black Book guy? So he's like, well, no, I don't think he knew that. But if you Google me and you can see that I've done a lot of, I've written the Franklin scandal. I've done a lot of, I've written a lot on children's issues. Right. And that's what's troubling me is trouble. I mean, now I'm a conspiracy theorist. And I had a friend of mine who was having dinner with someone who works at a Fox, got a show.

And my friend said to him, have you heard a. Nick Bryant. And he goes, oh, yeah, he's a conspiracy theorist. So they've heard of me, but I'm a conspiracy theorist. Wow. And that was because I'd become a conspiracy theorist. And Wikipedia completely trashed the book that I wrote that made it look nonsensical. So they had their own page on the book as well? The Franklin Child Abuse Allegations. And that's people would Google Franklin. There you go. Boom.

Right. So I, you know, I tried to pitch it and pitch it and pitch it and finally, Gawker was willing to publish it. But the irony of it all is once it was published, the floodgates opened on it. And I think that there's been three quantum leaps in our understanding of Epstein. And I think the Black Book is the first. And I think the Julie Brown's series. And the Miami Herald.

And then I think that the latest tranche of documents. I think those have been our three quantum leaps. I think you're right about that. Understand Jeffrey Epstein. When you first had this, though, even before you get the flight logs, when you get your hands on the black book and you're going through it. And, Dief, can you just, I have it on my computer here. but can you just Google real fast Epstein Blackbook PDF and hit the first link so we can have it up?

You know, like I said, there's just been times where I'll go through this and scroll and I'll see a new name that I missed, you know, previously every time. It's like it's like Narnia, you know, in a fucked up Narnia. Can you imagine in 2011 getting that? That's what I'm saying. And then looking through it. What does that feel like when you're first scrolling through this going, And, holy shit. And also, even before you answer that question,

when you see the number of contacts that some people, that he had for some people, meaning like, I was used the example of RFK. RFK and his ex-wife, late wife, wife, Mary, are in there. He has like 10 contacts for the two of them at the time. I went back to when I was a little kid, my mom's old phone book that had, you know,

before you had the iPhone where you wrote down the content. like this. And there weren't even that many contacts for like my four at the time alive grandparents put together. And they all had emails, by the way. They were all like with it on that. And I'm like, but he has 10 contacts for one guy. And, you know, does that make you guilty of something? No. But does that look really suspect? Yeah. I remember when I got the blackboard, I didn't slept a lot the night before. And when I'm on the road investigating stuff, Sometimes I go through some sleep debris. So I hadn't had a lot of sleep the night before. And then I got it. And then I've got a buddy named Peter Levenda. He's a writer. Oh, yeah, yeah.

And I called up Peter, and I said, man, I got something to show you. And so we met at a Dunkin' Donuts. I was showing Peter the Black Book. The Dunkin' Donuts. And there you go. Yeah. Right on cue. And then I immediately made copies of it and then sent it to the four wins.

The four what? I dispersed a bunch of copies of it. I like your phrases. Because that's what I did with Franklin. Whenever I'd come across like a document that was really incriminating, I'd send it to everybody. Whenever I'd put all my interviews on CDs and then send them to everybody. Just so that if anything happened to you, it's everywhere. Yeah.

That's smart. And I made sure that the people listening to my phone conversations understood that. When did you know or have the inkling that your phones were tapped? Fairly early on. Like in the Franklin scandal or the Epstein? Oh, no, Franklin for sure. How did you know they were tapped? How do you know they're?

Well, I'll give you one example of how you know their tap. You're talking to someone and you're having a conversation about Franklin and he can give you some fairly decent information. And then the line goes dead. And all of a sudden, there's heavy breathing on the other side. That's an indication that... Yeah, it's a pretty good indication. Actually, I recorded it all.

I call it pet sounds. Pet sounds? Pet sounds, yeah. What do you call it pet sounds? Well, it's an album by the Beach Boys, so it's kind of, you know, but there's, I mean, it's not like you get messages, we're going to kill you. Right, it's not that overt, yeah. But I've gotten a lot of strange messages, and, but a lot of times there's just been music.

music. Yeah, that's... Like elevator music? Kind of, yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. Yeah. So, but like you go to meet Peter LeVenda and a Duncan. Yeah. And this is years into you thinking your phones are tap. Do you leave a drawing on the New York Times on your front porch for Peter to come pick up?

Like, how are we getting the message to Peter? You know, the thing about it is, if you're going to do this kind of stuff, you cannot be paranoid. You can't. You cannot be paranoid, no. I mean, you've got to use your reason. Your faculty's a reason. But, I mean, if you're paranoid, it's just not going to work because you're going to, it could be frightening at times. If you're paranoid and you're on Coke, then it's definitely not going to work.

You're going to be underneath your bed for three months. but I'm not I'm not a guy that's inclined towards paranoia and I don't think that like this is the only dancer is I don't think that this lifetime is is the only dancer what do you mean by that I believe that we have a soul and our soul goes to another destination so you don't fear death I mean everybody fears that to a certain degree, I think. There's a really great writer. His name is Ernest Bacher. He was an anthropologist. And he wrote a book called Denial of Death.

And I read that book when I was in graduate school. And I thought to myself, you know, this guy has said it all. I don't need to be a philosopher. And denial of death is about how it's always with us. So the first experiment on Becker's thought is there were, there were judges in Tucson, Arizona, and half of them were control, and then half of them weren't. And the half that weren't control had to write about their deaths and their, you know, and death and was, they were asked certain questions about their death every day. And then there were the ones that didn't.

And all of them were given the same fictitious case of a prostitute. And generally, the fine at that point was $50. So the ones that didn't have to think about their death, find the prostitute $50. The fictitious prostitute. The ones that had to read about their death, find the fictitious prostitute $500. And those experiments have been repeated over and over and over.

People that get reminded of their death are, you know, makes them, make them balacose, makes them angry. And so I've had to make peace with that. So it doesn't affect me. Did you make peace with that as an adult? or was this something that was, you know, like you said, you grew up in unfortunately a really, really difficult environment where you had to fend for yourself. Is there a part of that that stems from that?

I don't think so. I think it's the spiritual beliefs that I've acquired. And then also I knew Franklin was going to be dangerous. I knew that. Before you even started the investigation. Well, certainly when I was in the investigation, there's a lot of different people that died very mysteriously. with Franklin. And

and it's, I'm not saying like I'm Captain America. I mean, I feel fear. I mean, ergo ice cream sandwiches. Right. But, because when I got back from New York, or from Omaha the first time,

I mean, I was freaked out. I was freaked out that it existed. I was freaked out that I got in a death threat. I was freaked out that I was followed. I was, freaked out. Who'd you, who'd you talk to about it? Well, I had a mentor named Gerald Ballinger and he was a retired newspaper guy and he was, he was a mentor to me. He was like a guy that we would have breakfast every Saturday. And he was, you know,

I, he's since passed away. I, I loved him. as much as I can really love anybody. It was an amazing guy. And we were walking through Washington Square Park, and I was telling me, you know, this is what happened, this is what happened. I'm looking for snipers. And then we sit down at a bench,

and he said to me, this is going to be a dangerous investigation, Nick. If you decide to walk away from this, it won't change how much I respect you. And I said to him, you know, all those kids were destroyed with impunity. Somebody has to do something about that. I got to do this. I mean, I don't necessarily want to do it.

I got to do it. So that's when I really made the decision to go forward. And then I never looked back. and you were able, if I'm understanding correctly, to almost like a line in the sand in the way, divorce yourself from the paranoia because you just accepted it was dangerous? Yeah. Yeah. Good for you.

And also, I want to point out, you're coming at it from a different angle and a different lens, but nonetheless as an investigator, you did the thing in the moment that a guy like Alexander Acosta did not. You stared at it. you had someone literally tell you this might be who knows what's going on in the world this might be the most dangerous thing you've ever done and I won't think less of you if you walk away and you said no fuck that I'm going to do it I got a lot of respect for that I mean a lot of people can walk away from that they can just and I think people say well you know I can't do anything about that that's right and so I've just got like the editors that I was pitching

I don't really want to do anything about it or I can't do anything about it. But I can't explain. There's something about it. And, you know, I'm certainly a flawed guy. I'm like any other human, you know, heavily flawed. But I just, my conscience was honed to the point where I just couldn't walk away from it. And there were a lot of my friends in the media that wouldn't touch. this, who reacted the same way that Alexander O'Connor did.

And one of them said to me, this is years after the fact, I apologize, Nick, I wasn't a good friend to you when you were going through that. So one of them apologized. Well, good for that person. Yeah, no, I really like him and respect him. But of all the people that let me down, there were. There was one guy, his name is Maliki McCourt. I don't know if he's written a bunch of books. His brother was a famous, famous novelist.

He wrote Angela's Ashes. Maliki was the only guy in the media that really went to bat for me. Maliki, what was his last name? Maliki McCourt. This guy? There he is. Okay. Oh, he passed away a couple years ago.

Great guy. I love that guy. He went to bat for me, and he had pretty good connections, but no one would touch it. No one would touch the story. And what was his background? What an interesting bio. American Irish actor, writer, and politician, born in Brooklyn, and raised in Limerick. Yes.

That's kind of cool. Oh, Malkey was a great guy. But is, you know, and good for that other guy, whoever that was, admitting that he was wrong later. but it's got to be so frustrating. Like, the psychology is very similar to when someone is accused of a crime, they 100% know they had nothing to do with. And everyone goes, no, you did this. And they're screaming out that sometimes from an eight by six box saying, wait a minute, I didn't fucking do this. That's like my ultimate fear of like knowing that your conscience is clear.

You did not do something and you're accused of the worst thing. It's a similar psychological thing when you got the goods. Like, you got the stuff. You've been there, you've been on the ground, you've talked to these people, you know what happened here. Even if you only know 50% of it, that's 50% more than most people know. And people look at you and say, no, Nick, you're crazy. I can't even, that makes my blood boil. People are going to react with that kind of cognitive dissonance.

And as I said earlier, this is a horrible story. I should help Nick Bryant or Nick Bryant is crazy and now I can go over. No one in my family has read any of my books. No one. Except for I had a brother-in-law that read my books. Why haven't they read them? Because the cognitive dissonance. They want to believe in a world that doesn't exist.

So they still haven't read your books despite, I'll even just say this, what we've seen in, say, the last year. Now, they just, they're not really wired for it. They can't handle it. My brother-in-law used to read my books, but he wasn't a very good husband to my sister. I mean, he was an alcoholic and he was into hookers, so, you know, it affected the marriage. But he did read my books, which, you know, I mean, not that I'm fond of him or anything, but, you know. I'm sorry, your delivery is so. funny. Like, it just comes out of nowhere. I'm not, yeah, that was just funny. But that's,

that's kind of wild that they still, I mean, look, I do have people close to me as well who want to believe in a world that doesn't exist despite being shown all the evidence. But as far as I know, those people still listen to my podcast sometimes. You know what I mean? Maybe they ignore the facts, but they still listen. Well, the thing with Epstein is everybody knows. Yeah. Everybody knows. There was a poll that I think it was 89% of Americans or 92% of Americans wanted the truth about Epstein.

Yep. And then there was a poll that 52% of Americans believed that the administration attacked Iran. to get people's mind off the Epstein files. I think there's a reasonable case there. And the Epstein Files Transparency Act, that is a law. That's not going to go away. That's right. It's going to be a law in a month.

It's going to be a law in a year. It's going to be a law in five years. So why do they love breaking it so much already? Because I think that Trump has been heavily pressured. I mean, Trump is actually, according to Marjorie Taylor Green, Trump said when she was defacting. Yeah. He said, my friends are going to be hurt if the truth comes out. My response would have been, are some of these friends on the phone with us right now?

That would have been my response. And with Epstein Justice, we are growing. it's been you know we're a grassroots movement and we are we are growing it's been slow it's been a slog i started a 501c3 and i had no idea what i was doing no idea but i someone had to do it kind of like writing the franklin scandal you know i i never written anything like that but somebody had to do it And if you look at the labor movement, that was a huge battle. The government was actually having its soldiers kill protesters. And eventually, labor unions became a reality.

Labor unions at one point were thought to be completely radical. And then the civil rights, huge battle. And ultimately, civil rights legislation was passed. Women's rights, same thing. Gay rights, same thing. These are battles that make our society better. And this is the battle now to protect our children. According to the Centers for Disease Control,

25% of American girls are molested when they're underage and 5% of American boys. Now, people in the field say it's slightly conservative for girls and very conservative for boys. But if you just go with those numbers, you've got over 50 million Americans that have been molested when they were underage. And that's another reason why we have to make sure that we get to the bottom of Epstein, because most of these 50 million people will never see justice.

And if they see Epstein covered up, they're going to think that they have no hope for justice. Yeah, I think this one being so blatantly obvious. And what really strikes me is like you, so you got your hands on the Holy Grail all the way back in 2011 to where we can point, look, and say, whoa, all right, something's going on there. But now we have records from all these time periods of these people so blatantly operating the world as they see it from fucking Gmail accounts. I mean, I always say the trolling that it feels like when the guy at the middle of this literally had a Gmail called JEE vacation at gmail.com. That's like something that like 1999 AOL would auto make for you when you're like a grandpa signing on to this internet thing for the first time. Like the fact that that's in the middle of this and these people, they don't even try to be the mafia about it. They just openly talk about it.

What it tells me is that... Well, actually, they do... There are a number of emails that said, we need to talk about this on the phone. Sure, but, like, you see how many blatant things they talked about before they got there. The bar was low. And they're operating on, like, the number one thing

that's used for discovery in civil trials, let alone criminal trials, which tells me that they believed that they existed in a world where that was not even on the conscience of a... threat to them. Like, it didn't exist. Like, they're going to, yeah, I don't, I'm not a part of the plebeians. I don't get subpoenaed. Like, they were so confident that none of this would ever see it. So confident that a guy like Howard Lutnik will go on some fucking New York Post podcast last

summer when he knows this stuff exists and make up that whole fucking story. Reed Hoffman is a great example. Oh, yeah. Let's talk about Reed, LinkedIn founder, PayPal Mafia guy. So, There is a organization called World Without Exploitation. And they're there to help all these people that have been trafficked and abused. And one of the founders was an ADA assistant district attorney for Brooklyn. And she suppressed evidence. And she ultimately went before an ethics panel. And the ethics panel gave her a concept.

clean slate, but she'd resigned four hours later. And I wrote an article about this. It's in Zero Hedge. It's called Are the Epstein Victims being exploited yet again? And I'm looking at World Without Exploitation. Reid Hoffman gave World Without Exploitation money for a Monday night football commercial. And he tweeted about it. They tweeted about it.

Everybody was it was kumbaya. So when was this? Last year. So during the Super Bowl, World Without Exploitation had a commercial. And it just so happens that Reed Hoffman paid for that too. But the Epstein files were at least eight or nine days earlier. And we knew exactly what Reed Hoffman was at that point. So they're taking money from an Epstein crony.

Hoffman's an Epstein crony at best and even possibly a perpetrator. And that's, I think, if Reed Hoffman, with Epstein justice, if Reed Hoffman said, I'll give you $10 million to help put your cause forward, I wouldn't accept a penny of his money. That's right. So I wrote an article about that. It's at Zero Hedge, if you want to, if you're read response. want to check it out. It's, I think it's a good article. People have told me it's a good article.

Yeah, Reed Hoffman's a guy, we actually, is one of the guys we haven't gone deep on yet on a bunch of our episodes that we do on the weekends. But like I said, obviously, founder LinkedIn, PayPal Mafia guy, multi, multi, multi-billionaire. This is a guy who's pictured with Epstein on the island throughout the files. It's a guy who, I believe, as early as even those Wall Street Journal reports a few years ago, they had him. mark down as to when he was being met when Epstein was meeting with him on Epstein's calendar back in 2014, 2013, all after Epstein is convicted and everything. But as you just said right there, this is a guy that might have been a perpetrator as well, meaning like not just some sick

fuck who got blackmailed and was doing the stuff, but he might have actually been like making it happen. What's the evidence there? Well, they're very, you can tell that they're very close by the emails. And then Hoffman sends ice cream for the girls. And he said, and then he said, well, the girls are the girls that work for Epstein. Epstein talks about a wild party with Zuckerberg, Hoffman, and Mosque. And he uses the term, now Jeffrey Epstein, when he would consider something wild, I mean, that would be. Yeah, it's quite the term. So, and the way that Hoffman was going to help whitewash Jeffrey Epstein's predations, he was going to help him online.

So here he's giving all this money to this group, and he doesn't care about those victims. What he cares about is he cares about damaging Donald Trump. That's what he wants to do. But he's an idiot because he doesn't know that the documents that he's going to ostensibly play a role in releasing are going to incriminate him. I mean, that's the arrogance that you're talking about. When you put out the black book and flight logs via Gawker sometime after 2011, it's obviously years before this case ends up breaking open in 2019. I do remember there were like some articles I want to say in 2017, like in Politico in some places mentioning, yeah, this guy

who's a pedophile, you know, knows a lot of people and stuff like that. And Trump had mentioned him a couple times on the campaign trail. It's in various stops in 2015, 2016, but largely it wasn't a major public story. What was your odyssey during that seven, eight year layover period, if you will, to where you knew this was something big, but no one was talking about it. Very similarly, the Franklin scandal. Like, were you banging down doors trying to tell people, like, I have, outside the black book and flight logs, I have X, Y, and Z story on these people, and I want to work on it. And they were just saying, no. we're not touching this?

No, I mean, at that point, I went through some really difficult financial times. Yeah. Really difficult. And at that point, I was just writing to not be homeless. Wow. And I couldn't, I really, I pitched some stories, but no one was really willing to, and plus, I had this new understanding of the world that was kind of rarefired. And a lot of people just didn't have the kind of understanding of the world that I did.

I'm talking about the blackmail and other things. So I was just trying to survive as a writer at that point. And I was editing this crazy magazine. A friend of mine had become an editor for like a new. age magazine i was i was writing articles for them so i was just it was it was a really tough time for me because i was just eking by as a writer and i've been a writer for i mean that's really all i really know i mean and that's really all i want to do is right i mean now i'm director of a 501c3 i wish i didn't have to be but i'm not related to what you're right but so yeah i mean i i was

just writing to survive. Did you ever get mad at the world during that time period? Yeah, I can remember, I meditate. I haven't been meditating a lot recently, but I had a pretty hardcore meditation practice, and I was meditating, and then I got up, and I said, no one's fucking listening to me. I mean, I was really pissed off. And, um, But that is not going to serve you. To be walk around angry, that just is not going to serve anybody. And so the next time I meditated, I didn't do that. But it's important.

And I see people that go into this realm, you have to keep an emotional spiritual equilibrium. Or else it's just going to chew you up and spit you out. Because I've seen a lot of people just go crazy. or misanthropic because they've stumbled into this stuff. Yeah, I kind of wonder how you haven't, which is a testament to you, doing all these different stories for so long. And obviously, until very recently, they weren't taken nearly as seriously as they should have been. And you were early to a lot of things and new things that were clearly true that other people didn't. It just, it blows my mind. But you had,

you and I were talking off air a little bit before about, I don't know if the words anomalies, but these hidden figures, so to speak, right in front of you on the pages of the black book. Like, you know, we'll see names we recognize in places. Like, oh, that's interesting. Oh, they have X number of contacts. Oh, we can track them on the flights and stuff like that. But then there's people that you kind of skip over because they're not famous. You don't know their name and they got some contacts and they're just one of many people in there.

And all of them in some way have a story. Some are small and others are large when it comes to Epstein and being in his orbit. But you were talking to me about this one psychiatrist who's in there, Jarecki. Is that right? Henry Jureki, yeah. So when you had the black book, when you first got it, is this a guy that you looked into back then? Or was this later? No, it was relatively recently.

Recently. So who was this guy? Henry Jureki was a psychiatrist. And then he also got into, I think it was gold fusion. I'm not quite sure, but he became a billionaire. A billionaire. And his kids are directors of films. And Epstein would send victims to Jerachy for either maybe benzodiazepines tranquilizers or antidepressants.

And we see that in the files and the emails? Well, yeah. Well, how we got edified to that initially was a lawsuit. And Brad Edwards litigated against it. And Jarecki said that the woman was completely compliant with everything he did to her. And there was a 60-year differential between the two. But Jarecki, Epstein sent this, according to the lawsuit, Epstein said this victim to Jarecki for some psychiatric help.

And then Jareki kind of essentially made her a sex slave. And he would pander her out. I mean, he would have some of his buddies come and they would all molest the woman. And he is eminent psychiatrist. And actually... To this day. Yes. Well, now he's kind of, I think he's Alzheimer's. But Jeffrey Epstein wrote him an email about how Jurecki mistreated people. So if you can imagine that, I mean, Epstein thought that Jerachia was his treatment of people was horrific.

It's kind of an amazing email. Can we pull that up, Dief? Let's try to find that. He was so bad that Epstein, that's like when bin Laden called ISIS a little too much. Dr. Henry Jurecki and Nick Jureki event invitations. Nick is his son. Is that right? Yeah, he's got three sons.

One of his sons was the director of the Jinks documentary about that real estate guy that killed those people. You can go to my... You can go to my Zero Hedge article. And I've got a link to that particular. Okay, we'll grab that. So the Bax, the Epstein Survivor's being exploited yet again, one or a different one? Yeah, Epstein buyers go down. There's going to be the go-to shrink.

Epstein's go-to shrink. Oh, a section called that? Yeah. Okay, Google. There you go. Okay. So which link would you like right there? Okay.

Go-to doctor? What he called him? He said he was not good. Friarge of Sowing. Oh, there you go. Astonishingly, Epstein and Jareki, that 2012, 2011 email. Okay.

Down low, right there. No, no, one. There you go. Perfect. Okay, here we go. Yes. All right. So this is from Epstein to Dr. Henry Jurecki on September 9th, 2011.

As your memory seems compromised, I think you should consider the option that it is all caps your behavior that drives everyone away. They are ready to love, others are ready to be friends, others business associates. Try as they might, and though you talk a good game, they are treated to selfish, cheap, and intrusive actions. The result has to be, which has been, and then poisons the water for future candidate as the reputation becomes widespread. you drive away these girls. They start out open to a love relationship, I guess referring to relationship,

and then you torture and mistreat each. And then I guess take comfort in the fact that you were right not to think it possible. There you go. Whoa. That's, uh, so... That is dark as fuck. Jeffrey Epstein kind of looks at Jeraki as a monster.

A monster, looking at another monster as a monster. It's that's that's nuts. How how when did you was it right from the get-go because of your investigation into the Franklin scandal? Was it right from the get-go looking at Epstein where you said obviously this is an intelligence related operation? I kind of had this intuition that it was and when I got to black book that corroborated a lot of things for me. And then when I started digging into the documentation, and then when I saw that Jeffrey Epstein was given that sweetheart deal and all those co-conspirators were given immunity, at that point, I was pretty sure it was intelligent. There had to be

orders from on high. And why would the cognitively challenged George Bush and Alberto Gonzales tell Alexander Kostas stand down, what reason would they have? And I pretty much concluded at that point that it was an intelligence. Sure. Did you think it was CIA? Did you think it was Mossad? Did you think it was a mix of both? Did you think it was other places? Did you have any inkling about the supra government idea that we now have from the emails that later got released to where it's clear that there are families and dynasties that operate with impunity around the world and actually just decide who gets to fucking be the figurehead in office?

I looked at Epstein as a wormhole into a different universe. And you can call it the Epstein class. And with Epstein, now people want to say is massage. And you want to say CIA. I think that there's a very dark part of our intelligence that does this type of thing. That does Franklin's, that does Epstein's. And there are people in the CIA that don't even know that this exists. And then there are people in the CIA that kind of know this exists.

But they've got house payments. With the Franklin Scannell, there were two feds that helped me out. And it took me two years to cultivate. Feds, you meaning CIA guys? People in federal law enforcement. Okay. Not CIA, but federal law enforcement. That really helped me.

But it took me. I had to cultivate them for two years. And they had to be really solid that I would never give them up if the shit hit the fan. What made them feel comfortable on that, especially if you were a guy who was having his phone tap? I don't know. they like I said it took two years to cultivate their trust so and I did provide them with some information that they wanted so but it wasn't extremely it wasn't exclusive utilitarian I mean I got much more information from them than they got for me or that's what I believe but anyway

with Epstein there's uh the there's a Palestinian hacking group called Hendala that released a bunch of a Hube Baroque's emails. And Epstein and Hube Barak are putting together arms deals. And definitely the Israeli intelligence, I think, or military industrial conflicts, whatever you're going to, is involved. So I think that, but then you get Jeffrey Epstein's sweetheart deal. Are George Bush and Alberto Gonzalez going to go to bat?

for a guy that's in the Mossad like that? Or are they going to go to bat for a guy that's in the CIA? We're both. And that's what I believe. I think the dirty part of the Mossad and the dirty part of the CIA, it's like the Gambino and Genovese crime families. They don't shoot at each other anymore because they realize that it's bad for business. They work together.

Yeah, I think there's something to be said for that. And I also think the point you make about, there being a lot of people who don't, aren't aware of this happening in CIA is very real. It's the compartmentalization structure that allows it to happen because it's very interesting that for years now, anyone I've talked with, whether it be people I brought on the podcast or sources I got connected to who were X Intel or probably still in, there's no one on a scale of Andy Bustamante to John Kyriaku, meaning like the range of like status all the way to anti-statist, who has not expressed a complete disdain for their relationship with the Mossad.

They don't like them. They did not like each other. They did not work well together. That said, there has to be a segment in there somewhere that works hand in hand, the James Jesus Angleton kind of segment. And I think that Epstein is a guy that, the evidence is pointing to he was inside that world there yeah i mean i know a medical doctor

who was in the cia during mk ultra and he didn't even know about mk ultra can you explain that how that worked it was obviously very compartmentalized and so and mk ultra was a huge program I think there were 149 sub-projects, but this guy didn't even have a, and he's a medical doctor, and he didn't have a clue about MK Ultra. How do you know for a fact he didn't have a clue versus he's playing stupid? I believe him when he told me this. So, I mean. So what was his, if he didn't have a clue, he was obviously brought in under the guise of something else for expertise. He knew he was being brought in.

he provided said expertise and didn't realize that expertise was used for something that he wasn't aware of. Is that fair to say? Well, he was working at Stanford Research Institute with Operation Stargate, which was remote viewing. Okay. So, and there's a guy that's deep. I mean, he's remote viewing. Oh, yeah, that's deep. But he still doesn't know about M.K. Ultra.

I believe him on that. I mean, there's enough. But his, his expertise was. was used in some way to support it. Yeah, I mean, cultivating psychic ability was certainly a part of MK Ultra. But he was working with a completely different crew. Andre Pujarich, I don't know if you're familiar with that.

He was part of Operation Stargate, and he was a pedophile. Andre Pujarich. Andre Pujarich. Can we pull that up? This is a known fact that use a petto. Oh, big time, yeah. Really twisted, depraved individual. So he was a remote viewer?

Or was he... He was the guy that conscripted Uri Geller. Oh, that's interesting. Okay, so Andre Pujarich. There he is. Born Henry. Carol Pujarich was a medical and parapsychological medical inventor, physician,

an author known as the person who brought Israeli Uri Geller and Dutch-born Peter Herkos to the United States for scientific investigation. Pujarich was born in Chicago yada da da da da da Okay let's go down here Is there a section that talks about his Good

All right So while working in Mexico Buharge married Rebecca Albin Hoffberger the future founder and director of the American Visionary Art Museum They later divorced Is there a section that references

The data of his So this guy's a known Petto? Yeah there's Eury Galler. He was a guy that found Eurydala. Yeah, he was definitely a pedo. And I talked to this CIA doctor, and I said, you know that Pujanish was a pedophile? And he said,

well, yeah, he was a weird guy. What was the evidence to the, I mean, I believe you, what was the evidence, though, that made it so clear that he was in particularly? There have been a number of his victims that have come forward. And And there is some really good research out there. It's called the Extreme Abuse Survey. And anybody that's into mind control should check out the Extreme Abuse Survey.

And there were, it was a survey that people, there were actually four primary investigators. And two of them were psychologists. just maybe three of them or so. But anyway, they, and then there was a woman named Carol Rutz, who was really one of the first mind control victims to come out in a really credible way and write a credible book. And a number, and Nixon supposedly stopped mind control in 1972, but according to the extreme review survey, it continues to go on.

And I've been to, I've spoken at conferences where people have claimed to be mind controlled. And a number of them are terrified. We're terrified of Pujaraj. I mean, viscerally terrified of Pujaraj. Wow. So, and then there's been these ancillary anecdotes about him molesting little boys, too. why do you why do you think that such a sick and depraved

literally anti-human behavior which is abusing little kids why do you think it exists among I mean it exists everywhere to be clear like you said earlier but why is it such a more widespread thing than you know

maybe 20 years ago we previously would have realized with extremely powerful people. What about it draws those types of people to it? Well, as I said earlier, every socioeconomic strat has chop molest. That's right. It's difficult to know with these guys. Maybe some of them were abused. That's entirely possible, intergenerational abuse. and I talked to a psychologist in Washington, D.C.,

because I really try to understand all this. This is kind of, that type of stuff is antithetical to how I live my life. To be attracted to a child, I mean, I just, so I talked to a lot of people, but there was a psychologist that actually, in Washington, D.C. that I talked to, that she actually works with people that are pedophiles that don't want to be. pedophiles in D.C. And she came up with what I call the forbidden fruit that, you know, here are guys. You've got these powerful guys like Henry Jarek, they're billionaires or Epstein or any Richard Branson, all, you know, all these guys. They can have steak any night they want.

but sometimes they drift towards forbidden fruit. So I think that there's different ways that these perpetrators come to be perpetrators. And some of them are just outright sadists. The Virginia Jewfrey, who I got to know before she killed herself, She was terrified of a Houd Barack and Les Waxner terrified of them. Because they had personally abused her? Yes. Yeah.

And if you look at how close Ahud Barak are and Epstein were. I mean, these Handalah emails are just, I mean, it's a score. The Hendala emails? The Palestinian Hacking Group. Oh, that's right. You can go to Nick Bryant, NYC.com, and I've written three articles. I've got a big article about Jeffrey Epstein and the CIA Connections. And then I've got two different articles about Ahubarak and Jeffrey Epstein putting together arms deals.

They're right on my blog for free. All right, let's pull that out. You've got it. You're on Danny Jones and Mark Gagnon. And then which one are we looking for here, Nick? Actually, go to my blog. Okay. Over on the right?

Yeah, right there. So. Jeffrey Epstein and the CIA? Yeah, that one's like 7,200 words. And then there's a couple other ones. That one, Jeffrey Epstein and who Barack sell big brother to dictator. Was this in Africa? Yeah.

When they were doing it. Yes. Yeah, we talked about this one. So this was on a different podcast. The internal platform drop site, the internet, platform drop site news recently acquired a cache of emails between Jeffrey Epstein and the former Israeli Prime Minister of Hube Barak showing that Israel used Epstein as a conduit for dealing cyber weapons. The emails were courtesy of the Han Dala, pro-Palestinian hacking group with possible

ties to Iran, and they were posted by distributed denial of secrets and nonprofit whistleblower and file-sharing website. After due diligence, drop-site news authenticated the emails and its investigation of the Epstein and Barack emails are the foundation of this blog. The emails between Epstein and Hube Barack from 2013 to 2016 show that they were a dynamic duo. Barack had, of course, denied being privy to Epstein's sex trafficking and abuse of Myers, even though the aforementioned emails were exchanged five years after Epstein had become a convicted child molester and registered sex offender. The late Virginia Jufray also named Barack as one of her unsavory perpetrators. As Epstein pimped out underage girls and young women to his affluent

and powerful cronies, Israel was en route to becoming a trendsetter in the development of cyber warfare technology, which included malware, spyware, cyber attacks, and state-of-the-art surveillance think pegasus and stuff like that so epstein and barak hatched the scheme to augment the coffers of both barak israel and of course epstein by pedaling cyber technology to various countries including an african dictator for purveyors of carnage the world third world countries are invariably a wellspring of revenue and convicted trial molester jeffrey epstein and the former prime minister and alleged pedophile ahud barak had a panache of war profiteering Yeah, so this was when they lined the West African country of Cotei Ivory and their sites as a target and was right for profiteering.

Upstein email, Barack was civil unrest exploding and the desperation of those in power? Isn't this perfect for you? Barack replied, you're right in a way, but not simple to transform. So think about that. When there's civil unrest exploding, people would think, you know, how can we help those people? How can we, how can we give them peace? I mean, how could, what diplomatic overtures are required. But these guys, they want civil unrest.

They want to sell arms. I mean, that's how crazy they are. They want death. They don't want death to themselves. They want death to people that they consider useless eaters. They consider pretty much everyone who's not in their class, a lab rat, but it's even on a different level when it comes to the children they abuse and then the places where they can profiteer on war. They don't give a shit. They don't have to be there.

There's a email exchange between Barry Josephson. He's a big time producer in Hollywood. There's a lot of movies and Epstein. And the email goes something like we were, Bill Gates and I were talking about what's the best way to get rid of poor people. And I think I've got a really good idea for getting rid of poor people. And we'll have to talk on the phone about it. Epstein said that. No, no, Josephson said that. Josephson, I'm sorry.

So they're not talking about assuaging poverty. No, they just want to live. They're talking about getting rid of poor. people. Yeah, it's what all the people out there saying, hey, these guys are trying to do population control with stuff. At this point, I don't even know how you argue against that in a court of law. Like everything that they do, everything they're tied to is tied to people that are of lesser means dying, being used, abused, left behind, and they're just data points for them. it's really really horrible that these people who have really no respect for human life

that's right are running our world when when did you find about out about the island for the first time 2011 that's when i was talking i was calling up and this woman young woman had told me that she on the phone that was the first time you with her was the first time you found out of about it. So did you look into it right away at that time? No, at that point, I was just trying to suck up as much information as I possibly could. And I was really, I wanted to get documents on the sweetheart deal. And the island was something that I was going to circle back to. But when you're just starting investigating, and I was just starting this investigation, there were so many other things other than the island

that I needed to look into. But I eventually circled back to the island for sure. And when was that? I would say 2014. Yeah, definitely 20, by 2013, 2014,

I'd talked about it. At the time, what did you find out? Like, what was the extent of what you knew about it and what was happening there? I just knew that Ebston would fly in girls. And actually Virginia Joufrey said that they were, she released an affidavit in 2015. And she said that they were as young as 12.

Flown into the island. Yeah. And for pedophilic orgies. And then there was other information. But Virginia Joufri's affidavit was, where she accused Dershowitz and Prince Andrew and Maxwell of being perpetrators. There's a tremendous amount of really good information in there. We haven't seen outside of Gieland Maxwell who was convicted of trafficking children to nobody

and Epstein being dead, air quotes there with everything, obviously. We have not seen any of the people implicated in these emails that are now public or who are very clearly in the orbit face any real justice in the United States. And as you pointed out earlier, we've even seen distraction after distraction and try to get the American people's mind off of it. Not to be too obvious about it, but why do you think that is and do you think that'll ever change and we'll see some justice? I do believe that we will see justice. I mean, I've dedicated my life to getting justice in this case. Of course, I believe that it's possible.

When I started looking into this issue in 2002, people thought I was crazy. That the government? Taking part in child trafficking? Man, you've lost your mind, Nick. but now look at how far this issue has come over the last 20 years it's come light years

it has I was in Grange Village I was listening to some music just kind of walking around this was about four years ago or so and a friend of a friend of mine of a sudden I saw him out of the corner of my eye and he goes, you were right! You were right!

He was screaming it. So, but the troubling thing is, I was right. And everything that I've said about Epstein, there were girls under 12 years old. I've said that. There were sadistic pedophiles. I've said that. They'd been corroborated. by these files.

Did you find girls that weren't mentioned in any in any court cases or anything like that who were seven? Well, okay, I know a number of therapists that work with dissociative identity disorder. And two of them work with women who said that they've been trafficked when they were under 10 years old. And both those therapists and one's a pretty eminent psychologist tried to get money from the Epsom Victims Compensation Program for their clients, helped them jump through the hoops. And they weren't awarded any money because I believe and they also believe that there's a cover story, that there was no girls under 14 years old, even though there's evidence for there is, there has been

girls under 14 years old. So that has been a place where people just don't want to go. They don't want to get their to get their mind around that they're that young. And the media likes to prop it up is like they're 16 years old. When actually the first one that came forward was 14 years old. and when I was calling my first call of talking to a victim, she was 13 years old. I was talking to her mother. So here's the thing.

These guys are psychopaths. If you want a seven-year-old, they'll get you a seven-year-old. That's just they do not, their conscience is not an impediment to doing whatever they to do. And I saw that with the Franklin scandal. Those guys, those pimps like primarily younger adolescent boys, but if you wanted a seven-year-old, they get you a seven-year-old. They don't have a conscience. They're psychopaths. And whatever your comfort zone is, they will provide it because you're on the yacht. You're on the yacht. And you're going to be taking care of while you're on the yacht. As long as you do what you're supposed to do, well, you're on

yeah, you're going to be taken care of with whatever you want. Outside of some of the victims being much younger than what the media reports and what may even be talked about in common parlance, what do you think is the biggest thing to this day that people are missing about the Epstein story that they should be paying more attention to? Well, there were some very sadistic pedophiles for sure. I mean, we're seeing that with the documentation about, torture. There's that one very salient email from the guy from United Arab Emirates. I can't

enjoy it. Yeah, the Amir, where he's like, I really enjoyed the torture video. Yeah. And so, and I knew that very early on the sadism, too. And it was, so I've known that these victims were, younger and I've known that they were treated, some of them were treated very, very sadistically. Virginia Jewfrey was treated very, very sadistically. And I wrote an article about World Without Exploitation and everything is solid. The two women that run that organization are lawyers and the guy that's financing them as a billionaire. And I could not get that article published in any kind of mainstream. magazine, any of the articles that I've written about Epstein, I cannot get them published in

mainstream magazine. That's insane. And that article, if you look at that article, every fact has a hyperlink. Right. Every fact. But, and I'm amazed that Zero Hedge published, to tell you the truth. I'm glad somebody did. I mean, it's just nuts to me that they can keep doing it. But again, like, you know, we see the things that they want us to see, and they're always preparing us for the next thing that we're going to see so that we can forget about the last thing we did. And that's how they continue and they've done it forever. They being, you know, the powers of B that run the news cycle, if you will. You know, and then we kind of go along with life and follow where the algorithm goes and that's how they can still get away with it. just wonder at what point, you know, it has that Roman Empire fall of Rome moment, which, to be clear, I don't want to see like a fall of Rome, but I'd like to see a restructuring of the fucking,

you know, pillars that built it, you know, I wonder when that moment happens. My belief is that we can shame our legislators into an independent congressional commission. Because I think if you just drill down on Epstein, you're going to drill into the sewer. the sewer that runs our lives. And I have that belief. I might be delusional. I've never been diagnosed as delusional. But I do have that belief that it is possible.

That Americans, the right and the left can come together on this issue. Right. And we can start to clean out our government. Well, we had, there's two huge names. I mean, there's a million huge names in these files, but there's two huge symbolic names that appear in different contexts. have different conversations about them, obviously related to this case, who were around Epstein's orbit and knew him. One is from the left. One is from the right. They were both presidents. You have

Clinton and you have Trump. Obviously, through some of your work, releasing the flight logs, we know Clinton was on those planes 26, 27 times, went to the island, all that, and through, you know, public information as well as some people who can attest to it, like Donald Trump being a guy that was in New York, was around Jeffrey Epstein, and knew him quite well. And there was a period where they had a good relationship eventually. It was not that way, but there's still a lot of questions going on with that. I guess my main question here, not in any particular order for you to go to, but, you know, how damning is the evidence against those two guys in particularly as it relates to the extent to how much they were involved with Epstein? Well, Epstein was bringing women in to the White

House. When Clinton was in there. Yeah. And with Trump, Epstein wasn't shy about saying he was a pedophilic pimp. I mean, he wore that. You said that to Trump? No, no. He wasn't shy about saying, I mean, he wore it on his sleeve that he was, I mean, he'd always be a company, a lot of times it would be accompanied by very young girls. Right. And that's been reported. I don't know how you can hang out with the guy for a period of time and not know that he's a pedophilic pimp. You'd have to be unbelievably obtuse.

So it kind of goes back to the yacht. Trump was not going to be a forever war president. And we're in a forever war now with Iran. There's a number of things that he said that he's done on a about face on. Why is that? Why? Yeah. I mean, people got behind him because he wasn't going to start any new wars.

and, you know, he discarded that pretty quickly. I think that those guys have live a different life than us. And for life of a better word, they're in the Epstein class. And I know that people want to defend Donald Trump to their dying breath. And I know that people want to defend Bill Clinton to their. dying breath. But look at the evidence. In the very least, with the Trump administration, they came out with that crazy document, I think July 5th, that said EBCM National Acted alone.

I mean, that right there is a cover up. Donald Trump, his administration is covering up child sex trafficking. And they haven't strayed from that. I just find it mind-boggling. They just came out one day and said, oh, that's it. It's a hoax. And people will say, well, you know, I don't think Donald Trump molested any underage girls.

And that might be the case. Maybe he didn't under it. But he's certainly covering it up right now. Yes. It's indefensible. And people, again, we're dealing with a cognitive dissonance. People do not want to believe that the person that they put in office would aid in a bet. No, they don't.

But it also seems to be halfway of requirement to work in the Trump administration that you have some sort of longstanding ties to one Jeffrey Epstein. It's whether it's Leon Black's son, that fucking idiot lie. Howard Lutnik, who somehow is still the Commerce Secretary to this day, hasn't been fired, hasn't had a decency to resign in the last administration, Alex Acosta being the Labor Secretary. You know, you find the tentacles tied back to Epstein in some weird way across so many people that have powerful positions within Trump's orbit that you have to ask the question, why is that? We know what kind of vetting people go through to fucking be a janitor in the White House. Of course they're vetting, or you would hope they were, they would be all the people that are going to be holding actual real big government positions. So they have to know that. They have to know that Howard Lutnik has lived next to Jeffrey Epstein since 2005. Yet they still put him there.

By the way, even if, and it turned out this wasn't the case, even a guy like Lutnik never actually was around Epstein or anything like that. Obviously, that's not true. We've seen that. Like, just the optics alone of like, of all the people I could make Commerce Secretary, should I make the next door? neighbor of like the most insane pedophilic story in the history of this country. Should I make that guy? Yeah, probably not. He's a billionaire. He doesn't need it anyway. You know what I mean? Like, it's so in your face that I can't look away from that. And Defe and I have speculated. I don't know if you have any thoughts on this, that if it is in fact that Donald Trump wasn't actually like a

pedophile and that's not what he did with Jeffrey Epstein. Do you think it's possible as it's been posited by some people over the years on a spec basis, I should say, that maybe Melania Trump was introduced to Donald Trump by Jeffrey Epstein? Well, a lot of people have proposed that. And I guess there's some validating information. I haven't really dug into that issue. Dig in on that. What's that? Dig in on that.

I want to see you dig in on that. Well, there's so many different issues with Epstein. And millennia, she gave that really bizarre press conference. Yeah. And right when Amanda and Garo started talking behind Twitter accounts. And what I find amazing is, according to the media, Donald Trump didn't know about that conference in the East Wing. That's right.

Now, that's just another very disingenuous lie that we're expected to eat as Americans. We are eating a lot of, as I said earlier, you know, we're eating a lot of shit that we don't have to eat. I do believe that there is a lot of. a groundswell of people in our country that just say, we're tired of it. The thing about people is, if there's a critical mass of people, other people will join because they see that there's a critical mass of people. And what we're trying to do at Epstein Justice is create that critical mass. And I think that once that critical mass is created, because,

Americans don't want, Americans know what Jeffrey I've seen is about, the vast majority of them do. They are appalled that our government is covering this up. Appalled. And I think that they can, we can come together around this issue. I think it's, as I said earlier, I think it's the only issue that the right and the left can agree on that children shouldn't be molested with impunity.

Well, I hope you're right about that. And I hope they do. Obviously, you've been an OG on this case and putting it out there for people to see for so many years. And obviously we covered today the Franklin scandal as well, which you've written a book about and spent a lot of years of your life trying to get out there when people told you it wasn't true. And I think a lot of your work, unfortunately, has been vindicated over the years. I say, unfortunately, because you'd like these things not to be true, but good on you for trying to put some light. on the darkness so the people can see that it exists and maybe we can root it out into the future. Well, I just keep trying to do the next right thing. That's it. That's it. Well, we're going to link your website and anything else you want in there as well. So a bunch of the articles we referenced today, you guys will be able to see you've done some great podcasts for my friend Mark Gagnon and Danny Jones.

I think you've been on Sean Ryan as well, a bunch of different shows and getting the word out there. so people should go check all those out. But Nick, thanks so much for doing this, man. Thank you very much, Julian. All right. Everybody else, you know what it is? Give it a thought. Get back to me.

Peace. Hey, guys. If you're not following me on Spotify, please hit that follow button and leave a five-star review. They're both a huge huge help. Thank you.