Julian Dorey Podcast - 🤣 [VIDEO] - 11 Million Reasons Why I Ran From The FBI | #111 • Matt Cox

Episode Date: August 3, 2022

(***TIMESTAMPS in Description below) ~ Matthew Cox is a notorious former con artist, FBI’s Most Wanted suspect, fraud expert, and criminal. While he still holds a strong expertise in fraud, Matt no longer actively practices after completing 13 years in the slammer due to his many, many crimes. Instead, he has become a prolific True Crime author and podcast host. Cox’s bibliography includes “War Dogs” subject Efraim Diveroli’s Memoir, “Once a Gun Runner.” You can subscribe to his terrific podcast (“Inside True Crime with Matt Cox”) here: https://youtube.com/c/InsideTrueCrime ***TIMESTAMPS*** 0:00 - Intro; Matt’s First Mortgage Fraud on the run in Atlanta; Fake Passports & Drivers Licenses; Europe 30:42 - How Matt laundered money; Pulling a fast one over the bank manager story 54:22 - Off to Charlotte; The homeless people scam; Dangling Cash story 1:11:19 - The Gary Sullivan story; Matt’s lawyers learn who he really is; A tense negotiation w/ a bank 1:37:06 - Getting handcuffed in a bank story; Matt’s Keyser Soze moment 2:07:34 - Matt’s relationship with Becky deteriorates; Splitting the money and running 2:25:02 - FBI Agent Candace Calderon standoff with Matt; Back to Charlotte; Matt’s Walter White moment 2:53:00 - The Best city in America for Fraud; Matt heads to Nashville; The FBI closes in ~ YouTube EPISODES & CLIPS: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0A-v_DL-h76F75xik8h03Q ~ Get $150 Off The Eight Sleep Pod Pro Mattress / Mattress Cover (USING CODE: “TRENDIFIER”): https://eight-sleep.ioym.net/trendifier PRIVADO VPN FOR $4.99/Month: https://privadovpn.com/trendifier/#a_aid=Julian Julian's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/julianddorey ~ Beat provided by: https://freebeats.io Music Produced by White Hot Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

And you're like, Becky, we are now social workers. No, we now work for the Salvation Army. I made a badge. You know, it's really funny. I made a badge using my social, the picture on my social security, using the picture on my wanted poster. I used that picture on my social, on my Salvation Army badge. The badge said that I was a statistical surveyor what's cooking everybody i am joined in the bunker today by my friend mr matthew b cox aka america's

favorite mortgage fraudster that's not a thing but, but we're going to make it a thing. This episode covered Matt's life on the run from the FBI back in 2004, 2005, 2006. So I want to point out that this is all ancient history. It's way in the past. He's a reformed man, but despite the veracity of his crimes, the way that Matthew Cox tells a story and the nature of some of the crimes is, in retrospect, I want to add that, in retrospect, quite funny. So this might be the funniest episode we've ever done in here. It's pretty close with Louisa. I don't really know.

But I was laughing, especially after the first 20 minutes. I don't think I but I was laughing especially like after the first 20 minutes I don't I don't think I stopped laughing after that after that so I think you guys will enjoy and if you haven't checked out Matt's 15 to 20 episodes on the concrete podcast they're all great so make sure you go check those out as well very very entertaining guy if you're on YouTube right now please hit that subscribe button, hit that like button on the video. And as always, would love to hear from you down in the comment section below. To everyone who is on Apple or Spotify right now, thank you for checking out the show over there. If you haven't already, be sure to leave a five-star review on either one of those platforms.

And I look forward to seeing you guys again for future episodes. That said, you know what it is. I'm Julian Dorey. this is Trendafire, and please welcome Mr. Matthew B. Cox. It feels like it would take a lot longer than that. No, no, I had two surgeries. Each one was four hours. So it's like eight hours. Still, that's only eight hours. The way you just described it sounded like that would take like three days. It's extremely tedious. I don't know how many actual little cuts and stuck it in, cut and stuck it in. I don't know how many actual little cuts and stuck it in, cut and stuck it in. I don't know how many those are, but he said like follicles or something, you have like 1800 hairs growing out and now it's like 3200. And I was supposed to have like,

so I have like 66% coverage and you can get 100% coverage, but you basically need three surgeries. And so I never had the third surgery. I went to prison is two surgeries your hair is only 66 66 percent come on yeah i mean that's why you don't need the third surgery no one would be able to i think i do because it's something there are i feel like there are some there are points when like if the hair hits if the light hits me right or what it looks thin and i don't want thin hair. You want the full mane. Of course I do. And I'm, you know, I'm extremely, you know, shallow or whatever. Whatever you want to call it. I'm, you know, I want a full head of hair.

Fair enough. Well, it was a utility when you did it because you were trying to change the whole appearance and everything. You were on the run. Yeah, but I mean, I wanted it done anyway. Like it was like, did you change it? Well, it didn well it it didn't yeah both you know would i have done it without that i may have never really been pushed to that point but that was definitely an incentive yeah so last time when you were here it was funny because like the whole time you're like we're never gonna get through this man and in my head i'm like i know that's i see where this is going

but it was kind of perfect because i like this has happened twice now where it's kind of like when we finish where one podcast is going to end it's great because it's two separate eras and that's why we stopped it where where i did it was like you were the end of our last episode you were talking about going on the run right so basically the first episode filled out all the different ways you committed crimes for all these years like the actual methods highly entertaining by the way but this one you know there's been a lot that's happened since then for sure so i want to take through like the second half of like all right well now i'm i'm one of the most wanted men in the country i'm on the run and obviously we know the ending of the story people read your wikipedia

page like you ended up going to prison but the actual on the run story my understanding is that it was like for what like a couple years something like that three years yeah so you pull out of tampa you take becky with you yeah we we close with you talking about when you first got like a real id but it wasn't you and she was looking at it like that's is real. And you're like, I know, I know. But after that, how did you settle into life? You bought the houses in Atlanta through the, whatever that mortgage scheme was, were you, how did you explain that?

Well, in Atlanta, I didn't buy any houses in Atlanta. We just, we rented a house. And I don't know if I got to that point where I was- You said this, you remortgaged it or something. Yeah, we rented a house and I, I, I don't know if I got to that point where I said this, you remortgaged it or something. Yeah. I, I, we, we rented a house, um, in the name of, uh, Michael, um, Shanahan's name. And I went downtown and satisfied the loan on his home.

So now it's free and clear. He had two, two mortgages, the first mortgage and second mortgage, both with bank of America. I satisfied those. And then I made a fake ID in his name that said my name was Michael Shanahan. I then opened up some bank accounts, went and got convinced three hard money lenders to lend me $150,000 on the house at the same time. I closed within like a day of each other, maybe even the same day. So each one lent me $150,000 on a house that was worth about about 190 200 000 um and so all three let me 150 000 that was 450 000 i deposited those checks when you do that there's not a record

that comes in that shows that you did three on the same house yeah it gets recorded in public records but it's not for a few months or something. Well, it does take a few months, but it wouldn't matter if it was recorded the next day. Why? Because when they mail in a copy of the deed to public records, or let's say not the deed, because there was already a deed.

So when the new mortgages get mailed in, let's say you get a mortgage on your house here, and you got another mortgage, let's say you get a mortgage on your house here and you got another mortgage. Let's say you refinance your house or get a first mortgage on it, whatever it is, on your house. So you get a $200,000 mortgage. If you went to another bank and got another $200,000 mortgage and another one, all they do is you sign those documents and they mail them in to public records. That's why I satisfied his first, any of the liens, because when public, when the title company searches the title to your house,

they would say, hey, you already have a mortgage. So we need to pay that mortgage off. There are very few things that you can be certain of in life, but you can always be sure the sun will rise each morning. You can bet your bottom dollar that you'll always need air to breathe and water to drink. And, of course, you can rest assured that with Public Mobile's 5G subscription phone plans, you'll pay the same thing every month. With all of the mysteries that life has to offer, a few certainties can really go a long way. Subscribe today for the peace of mind you've

been searching for. Public Mobile. Different is calling. What's better than a well-marbled ribeye sizzling on the barbecue? A well-marbled ribeye sizzling on the barbecue that was carefully selected by an Instacart shopper and delivered to your door. A well-marbled ribeye you ordered without even leaving the kiddie pool. Whatever groceries your summer calls for, Instacart has you covered. Download the Instacart app and enjoy $0 delivery fees on your first three orders. Service fees, exclusions, and terms apply. Instacart, groceries that over-deliver. Well, I would go in and satisfy those. So now it looks like I, Michael Shanahan, own that property free and clear. So when I go to the hard money.

But you wouldn't pay anything. You fake satisfied it. I fake satisfied it. But nobody knows. Like the new people that are coming along, when they go, the new title company looks at the public records, they don't see a mortgage. So they say he owns it free and clear. How do you – maybe I missed that. How do you fake satisfy it like without putting money up so like let's say you buy a house and you get a mortgage from bank of america for two hundred thousand dollars you buy the house

you know whatever you put your five percent down or ten percent down whatever but let's say you owed them two hundred thousand let's say one day you hit the lottery and you pay off that mortgage early. Or maybe you do the whole term. Maybe you go 30 years. How does public records know that you paid that mortgage off? Like they don't sit there and go, oh, this is a 30-year mortgage. They don't know if you're making your payments. They don't know what happens. Well, let's say three years after – five years after you've started that 30-year term, that 30-year mortgage, you make your payments and you hit the lotto and you mail a check to Bank of America.

You say, hey, I still owe one hundred and ninety five thousand dollars. Here's that one ninety five. They take the money. What they do is they then make a document. It's like a one page document and it says it's satisfaction of mortgage or release of lien. And they say, the mortgage that was taken out on this house on, you know, 305 Sandy Hearst Lane, you know, in wherever, New Jersey, whatever, that, you know, there was $200,000 taken out on this property and it was recorded in this record book on this page, and this is the instrument number, is hereby satisfied.

And so then somebody from Bank of America signs it. Another person, a couple people witness it, and then somebody notarizes it. And then they take that document, Bank of America mails it to public records. So public records get that a couple days later. They look at it and they go, okay, let me pull this up. Some clerk there goes, let me pull this up. Okay. Oh, I see the mortgage

they're talking about. Oh, look. Yep. This is a satisfaction to that mortgage, which is in public records. We're going to scan it and we're going to record it right behind it. And now when an abstractor comes and looks at the title, they see there was a mortgage for $200,000. Oh, wait a second. Five years later, which was only a month ago, look, oh, it was satisfied. So he did have a mortgage, but it was paid off. Okay. And so then they tell the title company, I went and I searched public records and guess what? He doesn't have any mortgages. They don't even say he did have a mortgage. It was paid off.

They say, so what's on the title? Clear. So you with your fine arts degree are making the necessary paperwork to take care of this. Of course. I'm ordering – I order notary stamps that show up for people that have notarized things for Bank of America. Like when I went down there, the first thing I did is I do a general search of the area and find Bank of America in Atlanta of satisfactions, Bank of America mortgages that have been satisfied. So I get copies of those.

Go home. I make it. Now I know what their satisfaction looks like. I satisfy it. I then sign it. I then notarize. i get a notary stamp that looks just like theirs i notarize it from this you sometimes it's the same notary i use the same notary because that they've got each branch is notarizing hundreds of these wow there's tons of different branches and then i go downtown and i say hey um i paid off my mortgage like a month ago.

And Bank of America mailed me this. And they said that they were supposed to mail it to you. And then the clerk goes, oh, that happens sometimes. And then they scan it and they hand it back to you or whatever. And they go, okay, it will show up in a couple weeks or a month or three months. Atlanta at that time was actually months behind. So we did that. And then every week or so,

I would call down to Public Records and say, hey, can you check my title? Has this been recorded? And they would come back and they go, no, not yet. Okay. Another week goes by. Has it been recorded yet? No, not yet.

And then they would tell me, we're currently caught up to this date. Okay. Another week goes by. Has it been recorded yet? No, not yet. And then they would tell me we're currently caught up to this date. So I knew the dates are coming closer and closer. I knew, listen, by like next Wednesday or Thursday, it's going to be recorded. You call them Friday and they go, we recorded that a couple days ago. Okay. Now you're clear. Now I'm clear. Then I call a couple.

Now I am currently living in a house as Michael Shanahan in Michael Shanahan's house and with no mortgage on it. I call up three hard money lenders. Did you have a fake name for Becky at this point too? Yeah. I don't know who she was. I was. But she had her own ID obviously. Yeah.

I think she was Grace Hudson. She was Grace Hudson at this point so um yeah i just called three hard money guys you know when everybody you know everybody's so funny how do you find a hard money lender well you go there's this thing called the internet even back then i love it when there's like 25 year old kids who are like man i don't even know how to find a hard money lenders like how do you are you joking Like I'm an old man and I'm, I'm faster on technology than any, you ask, you ask, listen, I, you know how many times I talk to my girlfriend's daughter and it's like, she's like, well, I don't know what that is.

And I don't know. I'm like, what? Look it up. Yeah. You have the world at your fingertips. If I had this much knowledge when I was your age, I'd have conquered the world by now. You and Frank Gowen there. My God. So anyway, yeah. So I go and I look it up, Atlanta, you know, Atlanta, and I type it in, hard money lender, and like, you know, 40 of them show

up. I call one guy and tell him where I'm at. And he says, yeah, and he comes by. I call another guy, he comes by, I call another guy, he comes by. I call another guy. He comes by. I got three of them. And I thought, eh, you know, honestly, let's stop at three. Successful. You know. At the same time, we needed, I could wait for that $400,000 a few months because we still had like, we were down to like $40,000 or $50,000 at this point. We'd be blowing through money.

And I was like, fuck, man, we need to get some money. How were you blowing through money? You know, we're doing stuff like we're going on vacations. We're going to Jamaica. We're going to, you know, we're going to Mexico. We're going to Bermuda. Wait a second. You were going on international flights while this is all going on with your fake IDs.

No, no, no. By this point, I've kind of got like passports. Well, first of all, you don't need that. Fake passports. I'm sorry. At that point, no, you don't. Fake passports. I'm sorry. At that point. No, those weren't fake.

I got the. I never. I never got a fake passport. By this point, I've gotten driver's licenses in other people's names. But how do you use a passport with Matthew B. Cox on it if you're a wanted man? I don't. If I can get a driver. It's harder for me to get a driver's license in your name than it is to get a passport once i've got the driver's license so you did get passports yes

but you were said fake passports they're real the state department it's a real passport semantics yeah well i mean you know this it's not a forgery so wait why is it easier to do a passport than a than a driver's license well because the things that i need to get your your driver's license which is you know i need like i need a primary and two secondaries right and proof of residency so i need i don't know if we went over this last time i need your birth certificate that's your primary i don't think we went over this no well i need your and this is in every state i need your primary that's your birth certificate I don't think we went over this. Well, I need your – and this is in every state. I need your primary. That's your birth certificate. Yep. I need two secondaries, right?

So I need something like a Social Security card. Credit card bill usually, right? No. You're thinking utilities. Utilities would be to prove your residency. So I need one primary, two secondaries. Two secondaries would be your Social Security card and maybe it could be your high school transcripts. It could be your voter's registration card. It could be like a utility bill, which would also double as your residency.

You have to prove you live in the state. You know what I'm saying? Like they'll say we need a proof of residency because I can't. Otherwise, I could drive from Florida to Georgia and say, here's my birth certificate. Here's my SOCH, and here's my bank account. And they would be like, okay, well, how do I know you actually have a residence in Florida? So you have to show them something like voter's registration card or my lease agreement or utilities are in my name because I wouldn't live here, have utilities in my name in this state if I didn't live in this in that house you know what i'm saying that's the way they look at it and all this stuff is forgeable to your with your skills um yeah but by like i said but yes but i also at this point was starting to um you know basically steal identities i was getting um

i was running ads remember i was running ads you mentioned this so i would run an ad for people to you know uh apply for for mortgages and so they would call they'd just give me everything and then i'd order all their documents now i got your documents and i'm calling place people are calling from florida yeah you were putting in like the tampa times or whatever yeah yeah i was putting the tampa uh and the the flyer i've run them in atlanta where i got people from atlanta because i wasn't gonna get an id in atlanta or georgia i was gonna go somewhere else but i so if i'm if i'm living in atlanta and i know i'm relocating to another state i might as well go ahead and survey or go ahead and um get some people from atlanta right i'm here i'm hanging out might as well run an ad

i'm always running an ad i'm always getting a call. So it's just about people helping people. Just trying to help these people get loans. So they would call and I'd get their information. I'd order their documents. And I'd get their documents. And now that I've got their birth certificate and I've got their social security card. Oh, they would send you the actual – No, they just gave you the information you made.

They gave me the information. Right. Well, no, I don't even make – no, think about it. If I have you, like, look, all I need to get your stuff is your full name. Yeah. Where you were born. What's your father's name – or, sorry, your mother's maiden name. So if you were born in Hillsborough County and I know your mother's maiden name is John, you know, her name is Mary Johnson. And I know your full name and I know

your date of birth. I can get your birth certificate. I fill out an application. It's like $22 to get a certified copy. I don't want to copy. I'm a certified copy. And they say, hey, we need proof. It's you. So I have to make a, I have to make a copy of your driver's license, but I make a, I make a copy of what looks like license but i make a i make a copy of what looks like your driver's license it's not it's just a it's a matt cox it's a matt cox driver's license that has your name on it it could have any picture they don't the the lady that works in public records doesn't i'm sorry that works in the vital statistics office doesn't know what you look like is that different today like do they have any facial recognition stuff? I don't think so.

Palantir's not funding the DMV. So I mail that in with the thing. Listen, I've mailed them in where I had all kinds of stuff wrong. I mean, I don't have the father's name. You got careless? No, it wasn't careless. I don't have it. I don't have it.

That's careless. It's an application. You're a perfectionist. or what if the person gave me wrong information you know i mean guys who have told me my father's name was like richard's you know smith and i get it back and it's not richard smith it's like john williams like like like i can't believe that guy lied to me you know how dare you maybe he just doesn't know um you know so i i feel that or it says what hospital they were born in. Do you know how often hospitals change names? So if you say, hey, I was born in Tampa General, Tampa General isn't Tampa General now.

Now Tampa General is, you know, St. Mary's Hospital. I can't name the hospital I was born in. Right. Well, not just that. It doesn't matter anyway, but they still ask. So I would put it down. I've had people's mother's maiden names wrong, where the guy must have been like, something's wrong. I'm going to tell him her last name was Thompson. And then then i get the document in wasn't thompson it's completely

different but i still got it they don't get they don't come after you like oh this is kind of weird someone who's making 14 an hour working at working in the vital statistics she'll go fuck she's like she's like denied what an idiot he doesn't know his mom's made it. And throws it away. Or better, she goes, poor guy. Fill it. Go ahead and fill it. Give it to him. He's an idiot.

I mean, it's him. It's his driver's license. I have a copy of his driver's license. He paid the fee. He filled out almost all the questions, right? Give it to him. Out of, let's say if I did 50 of them, I bet you there's only one or two I ever didn't get. Or they came back with a letter saying, look, this is incorrect.

We need the correct information. They don't pursue it. So I'm getting the documents in. Once I've got their birth certificate, their social security card, I, of course, registered. I immediately registered a vote. So, you know, I have your information. Do that alone. So I got a copy of your voter registration.

I have a copy of your lease agreement, which I can make. By this point, I'm getting utility bills in. I can obviously alter the utility bill. But so then I go in the DMV and I say, hey, you know, I have this, I have that. And I show it to them. And they go, yep, this is you. Stand over there. They put your information in.

They stand, you know, you stand there and they take your picture and you get a driver's license. Or even worse. That's simple. Well, yeah. Sometimes, like, if you can't prove you have a driver's license in another state, like, I usually ordered a certified copy of their driving record from the other state so I didn't have to take the test. And I can use that. Oh, sometimes you have to take the test. Oh, you know how many tests I've taken? Oh taken oh my god how many times have you done that oh um you know half a dozen listen i almost what's

so funny is in tennessee i almost failed it that's what's really funny is i i remember i got i was you know i i first of all i didn't know what the the alcohol limit is different right like it was like 0.002 or 0. Like in theirs, it was different. I got it wrong. Oh, really? And then like if you get a DEI, like the first time, like you lose your license for like a year or something.

Like I was used to them not losing it for a year. But you had to take the rate. I'm talking about also the regular manual test too with the coins and shit. But if you're in your 30s and you go and you get in the car, like the guy doesn't make you do it. The guy's like drive up here, take a left here, take a right here, take a left, left, right. Okay, just go back.

And you're like, because the guy's looking at you like you're a grown man. Yeah. You showed up in a $50,000 vehicle, which is now probably an $85,000 vehicle. You showed up in a brand new sports car. But you're not driving yourself to show up. Oh, I don't know. I drive myself. Oh, because you're, because you technically already have a license in the old state. Yeah, I have a license in another state. Hey. Oh, listen, I've sometimes I, um, what was the guy's

name? One guy I had, like he had his license. I've had several of them suspended. But when I start surveying homeless people, like I had a guy that had – I've had guys that had suspended licenses. So I would have to pay like an $800 fine or a $400 fine and get them to reinstate their license so that I could get their license in another state. Oh, so they were suspended for like failure of payment or stuff. Yeah, like stupid. Like they didn't pay a ticket or whatever. So I'd pay that ticket or whatever so i'd pay that ticket and then i could get it in the other state um but like i literally like would show up

knowing i don't have a license in the other state yeah i could get one but it's expired he had a owed 500 bucks i paid the 500 bucks so now i'm going into tennessee getting the license and they check you know okay yeah you're eligible because if you show up and it's been suspended somewhere else in another state, you can't get one in this state, in another state. They'll check. They have a hub system where they can check. They say, oh, no, there's a hold. There's a lot of steps to this one, but now that you've described it the whole way, like it's a lot of bullshit, but it's so doable. It is doable.

It's doable to somebody who doesn't see obstacles. Like, like to me, it was like, that's, you know, those, those, well, they see obstacles, but to me, it's like, most people do this. They, they get, they hit a, a wall and they're, you know, oh, you can't get it because of this. And they go, oh, I guess I can't get it. What do you mean you can't get it? Well, yeah. They said, I said i have to have my my birth certificate i don't have my birth certificate so i can't get it okay well you have to get your birth certificate well i don't have his birth certificate yeah but you have the information well i know but when i went to go order the birth certificate they want a copy of his license like that's so stupid i don't have a copy of his license i'm trying to

get a copy of the guy's license so i can't do it. Listen, you know, like, it's like, you better get creative. This is America. Yeah. What if your house, and I used to always say, what if your house burns down and you lost everything? Your parents are dead. You lost everything. You have nothing. You're telling me that you never get a driver's license. Never?

You don't have a birth certificate. You don't have anything. Well, I guess I could go get one. No, you just told me you can't because you don't have a driver's license You don't have anything. Well, I guess I could go get one. No, you just told me you can't because you don't have your driver's license. Remember the house burned down and your wallet was in it. You don't have a license. How do you get it?

Right. Somehow there is a way. And I get on the phone and just argue. No, you don't understand. I don't have that. I don't have that. I don't have that. And they go, well, look,

you need to go and get like, like you read the form and the form says you have to have these eight things. Okay, I don't have any of those don't have that. And they go, well, look, you need to go and get like, like you read the form and the form says you have to have these eight things. Okay. I don't have any of those. What else can I do? Most people go, I don't have it. I can't do it.

Well, I guess you'll just be homeless. I guess you'll just never have a job and be homeless. No, you call them and say, well, I don't have those things. I was never in the military. I don't have a worker's ID. I don't have this. I don't have that. What else?

Help me. Help me. And they don't say you're just fucked. bro it's over man you might just shoot yourself but life's over no they go okay here's what you can do and they'll tell you i was gonna say how's this guy who keeps who always talks about the sauce you know the what there's this guy on youtube that talks about the sauce, like the special sauce. I'm going to tell you the secret. It's like the secret.

I'm going to give you some. Who is that? This guy named Kevin Ford. He runs a YouTube channel. But they'll give you the sauce. If you call them up and tell them I came, they'll give you the sauce, the secret recipe, right? And they'll tell you. And look, here's what you do.

You go and you get somebody that knows you who says this is who you are and they've known you for seven years and you get it notarized by a notary. And guess what? We'll use that instead of your copy of your driver's license. Like the buddy system? Yeah. There's a buddy system for this. If you go to get your birth certificate and you don't have a military ID, you don't have a copy of a passport, you don't have a copy of your driver's license, you don't have a copy of a worker's id you did you don't have a student id like i have none of the things you're asking me for do i have now what do i do well what well they'll go all right here's what we'll take like

they have to take something like you can't they can't say oh i'm sorry you're just screwed no no no you have to give me this so you figure it out okay look do you know anybody that's known you for like five or six years? Yes, great. Take that person, have them type up a letter with their driver's license saying that they know who you are and they vouch for you and then go get that notarized. Now, are they criminally liable? I have no idea. You never looked that up.

I don't care. They probably don't exist either. Also fucking Grace whatever fake. Yeah. Fake person was basically telling you this. Am I concerned about other people? Come on. You three and a half hours with me the other day.

You know I have no concern for how badly I'm damaging anyone else. The point is that I got the information and I'm moving on. I'm getting what I need and I'm moving on. So once I get a driver's license, do you know what you need for a passport? No. You have to fill out an application. I did one a couple years ago, but I don't remember any of it. You fill out one.

It's a one-page application. You fill it out. You sign it. You bring it to the passport office, which is typically in a… Courthouse sometimes or a mall. Actually, most of the ones I've been to are in the post office. So you go to the post office. During a certain time, you stand there.

They walk in. They go, okay, give me your driver's license. They look at it. Okay. It's you. Pretty sure the driver's license administration already decided that that was me too. So they look at it, and then they go, I need a copy of your birth certificate. You pay your fee.

They take your original birth certificate, and they mail it off. They mail it back to you in 10 days, and then you get your fee they take your original birth certificate and they mail it off they mail it back to you in 10 days and then you get your passport, now you get your passport back in about 3 months back then you could pay the fee to rush it and you got it back within about 10 days I think you can still rush it

you can but it does not do 10 days the rush one is like 60 it's still 60 it's forever I just went i just went to europe what were you doing in europe i went to um amsterdam i did a tv show called um inside the mind of a con artist oh yeah perfect i was uh um studied by three um three scientists or psychologists or whatever oh you know what wasn't there a trailer for this or something yes i that's that looks interesting when's that coming out it already came out it was on discovery channel like

um curiosity stream is that just you gotta tell me this i i actually that looked like really interesting i wanted to see that it wasn't but it could have been better you people it could have been better i didn't realize how much of it was really about like the scientists it's really more about them talking about you i was like you interviewed me for three or four days and there was very little about me and there were even parts of it they got blatantly wrong like they went during editing they just really blatantly got some things wrong. Like what? I told them what really happened. Remember that there was Pete

and Gretchen Zayas are the ones that wore a wire on me when I was in Tampa. In the diner. Right. In this, they take two separate parts and they basically say that my ex-wife and her husband wore a wire on me. That's absolutely untrue and i never said that i've never said that ever nor would i why would they do that you know they were like oh it was a mistake it wasn't a mistake it was that it worked

better for for the the flow worked better hollywood right instead of me having to explain who pete and gretchen was i had already explained who my that my ex-wife had been remarried and you cut this piece out and then you said that you know she called me and asked me to go to lunch and they wore a wire when it absolutely is not what I said look if it's a feature film or something okay I understand this stuff happens but like when you're doing a documentary or like content that's a documentary, you can't do that. Ish. Ish. Still.

You can't do that. Like that's – you can't do that. You're in it. I mean I hear you. It's what happened. So my ex-wife was furious. My ex-wife who already doesn't want to be interviewed by anybody. And every time one of these things happens, I call her up.

I say, hey, they want you to be – absolutely not. She's like, they never treat me fair. I had all these horrible things said about me in the newspaper that weren't true and blah blah blah and then what happens i don't she doesn't even participate they still hammer her it's like no wonder nobody these people don't want to and it's over there too you can't damn yeah well there's nothing i can do and you know i mean because that's for her like not even for you for her that's a suable offense you would think but but here's the thing like, not even for you, for her, that's a suitable offense. You would think, but here's the thing.

She never saw it. I'm the one that mentioned it to her. It's on CuriosityStream. I mean, come on. There's so much content out there. There's so many things out there. Once again, at this rate, we will never be done. So I go to Atlanta. I steal $ hundred thousand dollars and you have a passport you have a you have a driver's license yeah so we're blowing money

yeah so i get about four hundred thousand and after i get the four hundred thousand um you know what we're doing is we've got a system to just get everything out in cash like there's no bitcoin this is 2004 you didn't invent bitcoin i thought you were satoshi no you know i could have i could have bought gold or silver you know precious metals or maybe even diamonds or something i didn't know anything about that the only thing i could think of was get the money out in cash like if you get it out in cash you can put it back in in cash you can you can spend cash i can launder money i can buy houses and pay for everything in cash there's ways to do it if it's cash you're always liquid right so i figure okay

get the 400 450 000 out in cash um so we start we open up a bunch of bank accounts and what would happen is like becky would open up bank accounts and write me checks i would walk in it's a new account so it's been open like two weeks and some guy walks in and asks for $6,000. Now, granted, there's $40,000 or $50,000 or $100,000 in it. But the banks are weary. Like this person opened up an account. Three days later, she deposited a check for $80,000. Is there a rule on the withdrawal side similar to the $10,000 on the…

Yes. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. But… And it's $10,000. Like if I ask for $10,000 in cash, I'm going in for $5,000 or $7,000 or $8,000 or $6,000. But you just said – how much money did she put in this account? That's two weeks old?

It wasn't cash. It was a check or it was a wire. Oh, right, right, right. Because that's only hard – right, right, right. Only hard cash. Right. So we're walking in and what would happen is I'd go in for $6,000 and they'd say, hold on a second. And they'd walk in the back and they would – she'd be in the car and her phone would ring. They'd go, hi, Miss Grace. Or Grace – sorry, Miss Hudson. Hi, we have someone here at the bank trying to cash a check. Could you verify the payee and the amount?

She'd go – they'd say it's for $6,000. They'd go, oh, yeah, that's Scott Cott cugno yeah he did some work on my house that's that's good i wrote it for six thousand okay thank you and then they'd come back and say okay yes mr how do you want the 20s or 50s they'd give me the money and i'd leave do people do that like a contractor goes and picks up money from a from a person who hired them's bank account sure if you wrote me a like if i went and did put a new driveway in and i say and you write me a check i might go cash it sure why wouldn't i but you were withdrawing six thousand dollars no from her account yeah she wrote me a check why can't i i go and cash the check? Oh, so you had an actual physical check.

Yes. Got it. Okay. Yeah. So she wrote me a check and they're verifying that you wrote the check. So there are these things called checks. Maybe I should explain checks first. That was my fault.

Oh, you should see my girlfriend laugh when I pull out my checkbook. She's like, what are you doing? What's that? I'm like, just stop. I have a big checkbook back there. I still use them. It's the one boomer thing i do so i do it a lot less though um yeah i write two i think i have two or three i

write no i think probably two checks uh a month um i used to just like to pay my rent in the check because i could take a picture of it take a picture of the envelope and everything and they that company could never fuck me over do you ever you have to actually mail it in oh yeah yeah you didn't have to do that i did that though yeah so well back then so anyway i would walk in i'd get it so then we'd leave drive to the next bank walk in seven thousand dollars she'd be sitting in her you know these are this is how you learn how banking how it works how all the checks and how they work, because you know because I'm all parties. You see what I'm saying? Like I'm in the transaction or in the fraud, I'm all parties.

Yeah, you're on each end. So I walk in. Then we drive to another one. She'd walk in and she'd cash a check. Then I'd drive in to the next one. I'd walk in. So we do this all day. So we get like $450,000.

And as a reminder to people, you're not using disguises or anything. Oh, I mean, you have me picturing this. You're walking in as the same person in every single place. They got me with Starbucks or whatever like this. Pictures of me going, looking at the camera, drinking. Because I know they're taking pictures. I know that because as soon as they do the transaction, that thing is taking pictures and putting it in the machine. And I'm staring at them like, I don't care. Oh, well get oh well we need your thumbprint they look at you like your thumbprint

let's do that like i'm already wanted out baby give a shit yeah let me like i've never been printed here's how you properly roll it roll it you're teaching them how to do it no no you're not turning over that's not a good print let me do that again. I don't want APHIS to have to work. You don't want who to have to work? APHIS. What the hell is APHIS? The automated federal fingerprint. Oh, like this.

Got it, got it. For the feds. So, I mean, Georgia has one too. In Georgia, when you get a driver's license, this is why I never got a driver's license. In Georgia, you actually have to give your print. Really? They don't run it, but they run it for identity in case, like, you

die or in case they have an internal system so that they don't have to run it through APHIS because APHIS charges. People understand that they're like, oh, they can run it through this. Yeah, we can run it through the system, but the feds charge us when we run it through the system. So they don't run all

prints through the system. People think, oh, as soon as you get printed, they it through the system so they don't run all prints through the system people think oh as soon as you get printed they run it no they don't always money man right if they don't run it if they have a driver if you get arrested with your driver's license and their your identity isn't in question they do not run your prints through through aphos so you could be wanted as someone else in another state but if you get arrested for a fist fight and you've got a driver's license in that state they're not going to run your prints so george is the one that takes care of this ahead of time by getting their own well they can they can they still don't if you only if you're in question like if you say i'm in georgia i have a georgia license right and they then they'll they'll

they might run it so my my point is is that i in Georgia. We're getting out cash. We've got maybe whatever, $300,000, $400,000. And I get frustrated. It's been like a week. We've been doing this over the course of a week or two. Wait, wait. This is only a week or two into your drive away from Tampa. No, no. I'm saying once I do the closings. Right. Once I have the closing. Jesus Christ. Hard money guy shows up. He looks at the house. He says, like I said, I got three of them. They show up. They look at the house. They go, okay, yeah, it looks good.

Worth about $200,000. I'll lend you $150,000. They schedule a closing. I go to the closing. I sign the paperwork. I get in my car. I take that, you know, and I have those checks were cut up. So I would get to the closing and I'd say, hey, can you cut up these checks to different people? Like I owe

contractors, I owe people. I'd like to be able to just, I don't want to have to deposit a check and wait. I want to be able to give this guy a check for five grand, seven grand. Now, why would you do that? That way I don't have to, back then you deposit a check, you have to wait for it to clear. So you might have to wait five or six days or a week or whatever. So, and I want to deposit, I want to deposit these in different accounts that I own. Right, because you're on every end of it. Yes.

Plus, these are names that are on all these parties. So I also want to be able to walk in and get a check issued to, let's say, I have an ID in the name of, I don't know, John Doe. I want to be able to walk, get that check, walk into their name of, I don't know, John Doe. I want to be able to walk, get that check, walk into their bank and say, hey, I'm John Doe. I just had a closing. Here's my check. And they go, oh, $5,212. Okay, Mr. Day, hold on. Boom. Here you go. How many IDs do you have at this point? Approximately? Not many. Five, five or 10. But that was enough, obviously, for this kind of thing. Yeah. Well, first of all, you can open up, typically you can open up about three accounts

in each ID before they start saying, before the banks start going, did you open up any other bank accounts? Like, I just pulled you through check systems and you've got three other inquiries. Have you been open on banks? And that looks weird. Yeah. People just don't do it. You know, not in a short, not like

today. Yeah. We got one at 10 o'clock today one at 11 one at 11 45 it's now one what did you stop and get lunch you know what are you doing this the only people who do this is somebody who's running a scam so you can typically open up three and by the fourth one they just won't open up any more banks so everyone's getting them that's that way i can get the money out quick and all those those IDs have driver's license at this point? Yeah. Oh, yeah.

You have to. There's not some other way around that like showing proof of social security or something? To open a bank account? Yeah. No. Well, I don't know back then. I know now. But back then, I don't know.

It was a little crazy. Look, back then I could open up using a fake ID. So some of them are fake. Some are real. Fair. Okay. So what happens is at one point I get the, I'm going to simplify this transaction for the sake of explaining, but what happens is I do a closing and I say, I need you guys to cut up all these checks. And they say,

okay. And I said, I need, you know, this one for need you know this one for this much this one for this much for these different people i owe money to and the title company says okay no problem so they cut them all up one of so this is all happening in the same place by the way um or within that same house so i got them to do with the title company because this is the reason i had gone into the bank one time with a check for like, I know it was like $130,000 or something after the closing. And so I walk in the bank and I said, hey, I need you to cut up this into different cashier's checks. And the woman says, do you have a bank account here? I said, no, I don't.

She goes, oh, I'm sorry, we can't do that. And I went, well, why not? And she goes, well, we just don't do this bank policy. And I went, okay. I said, I mean, this is a check drawn on your bank.

You have the money. She goes, oh no, that money's good. They have money in the account. And I went, okay, well, I need this check to be made into cashier's checks. She goes, I understand. She goes, first of all, she said, you realize there's a fee of, you know, whatever, $4.

And I went, per cashier's check back then. Now it's probably $10. And I went, yeah, that's fine. I'll pay the fee. I said, here. So I give her the, here's a piece of paper. Here are the amounts. And she goes, yeah, we just don't do that unless you have a bank account here.

And I went, okay, but I don't. She goes, why don't you just deposit in your account i went okay because why i have a bank in florida and i don't want to wait 10 days or 20 days for it to clear the money is good i'd like the money you have the money and she goes yes we do but this against policy and i went fuck your policy and i said okay so this check i have a driver's license i have a credit card i. I have a social security card. I have three things. I said, I have everything I need. This is me. She goes, right.

I said, so if I wanted cash, you could cash it. Then I can go buy the cashier's checks. Is that it? And she went, well, yes, but obviously it's a hundred and whatever it was, a hundred and whatever, 130,000, whatever. And she goes, yes, but obviously, she said, obviously, you know, we don't have that much cash here. I said, right. She goes, you have to go to a cash, you know, a bank, one of our bank accounts that has that kind of cash. And they would take a couple of days. I said, okay, can you arrange that for me? And she goes, I mean, I could, I would have to

call down. There's a bank on Peachtree. It's whatever bank on Peachtree. They would, yeah, they would be able to get cash that. I said, that takes what a couple days she goes yeah i said oh wait i said can you go ahead and call them and she went are you serious and i went yeah i'm serious i said i need this money you won't make it into cashier's checks so could you please call them and arrange to get 130 000 in cash and i'll go pick it up Now you weren't worried about this setting off alarm bells? No, because I know she's not going to do that. How do you know that? First of all, what do I care? I'm using

Scott Cugno's driver's license. I have all real documents. You can check. Run it. Call the police. Let's get them down here. You owe me money. Listen, I'm ready to argue. Question though though is your face in a lot of places now because you are wanted by well there are guys secret service yes there

have been newspaper articles but they're a local in tampa not not in atlanta they weren't pushing it nationally no not yet because they think i've just kind of disappeared they may they say they probably think i'm still in tampa somewhere just waiting pick me up. They don't realize I'm on a fucking crime spree. So I say, look, you know, it's $130,000. I forget the, honestly, I want to say the amount was like $100,000. So I said, I go, I said, look, I, you know, arrange it so that I can get $100,000. I'll go down there in a couple of days. And she looked at me and she goes, okay, well, I'll call down there. I said, do me a favor. I said, when you call, tell them that I want it all in dimes, nickels, and quarters. And she looked at me and she goes, you're joking. I said, no, no, I'm not.

I said, when they ask you why you want it in dimes, nickels, and quarters, I said, I want you to tell them about your policy. I said, because I said, this is money that's here. I said, I want the money. I said, it's unreasonable. I said, and I can't wait till they have to count all that money out for three hours because you wouldn't cut me some cashier's checks. I sat there and she went, you're serious. And I went, absolutely. And she sat there and she goes, do you have those names? And I said, yeah, I have them right here. And she was okay. Well, it's $4. I said, I understand. And she was okay. She goes in the back. She comes back 10 minutes

later. She says, here's your cashier's check. I said, I understand. And she goes, okay. She goes in the back. She comes back 10 minutes later. She says, here's your cashier's check. I said, thank you very much. And I walk out. Hey, guys. If you're enjoying this episode, please be sure to share it around on social media and with your friends. Sharing the show is what helps this show grow and continue to get great guests like this. So thank you to everyone who's been doing that.

And thank you to all of you who will. My friend Jim DiIorio, the FBIbi guy i've mentioned him before to you but like he has this quote where he says politeness and familiarity breeds access because he was an undercover i mean this guy you know he'll go in anywhere to this day and he'll be able to find his way in there i'd even amend it and say that's correct but with, brashness and familiarity breeds access. Yeah, absolutely. Listen, the next one I – so I tell you that story to help kind of pull us – or let you understand what's going on and the kind of the minutiae of what's happening. So we're getting calls.

We're getting this. And every time I walk into one of these banks, Becky would say, Matt, what if you get arrested? And I would go, if I get arrested? Listen, if I get arrested, I'll be arrested as Michael Shanahan. Or I will be arrested as Scott Cugna. Or I will be arrested as, and I would tell her, I'd be arrested as one ofugna or I will be arrested as and I would tell her I'd be arrested as one of these guys that I have a real ID in at this point I have a real ID and they'd be they'd be arresting you under the the alias yeah but they'd be arresting you under the idea in that scenario if you're getting arrested for walking into a bank under the

idea that you're committing a crime therefore they're probably gonna like run to see like all right who's who could be changing their identity here to be on the run i have a driver's license in the name of scott cugno right you can look up scott cugno no i'm saying like they may look at who are all the wanted people like con men right now who's wanted i know but they might but at this point how wanted am i i and there's a few there's some some articles, but I'm not, I mean. You gotta be in a system. Well, I understand, but what's my alternative? So here's, you know, I mean, listen,

stick with podcasting. So I don't have a choice, you know? I don't have a choice. Like, it's like, look, if they arrest me, they will arrest me as Scott Cugno. My identification will not be in question. Keep in mind, I had a buddy who was a sheriff's deputy in Hillsborough County. So I kind of know how it works. You know what I mean? So I say, they'll arrest me as Scott Cugno. My identity won't be in question. I'll get arrested

as something like opening or something like a false, you know, like what do they call it? Uttering a false instrument or which is like a bad check or it'll be some bullshit bogus charge. I said, so what you do is you immediately go get me a criminal defense attorney. Even a shitty one can get me out the same day. Because think about it. No money, nobody. All of these mortgages, all this money is there.

They're not going to say $100,000 is missing because those mortgages, all this money is there. They're not going to say a hundred thousand dollars is missing because those mortgages were funded. It was the money's good. So I don't know what they could arrest me for, but I said, let's assume they do. It'll be on some trumped up bullshit charge. You go, you get me an attorney for five grand. A local attorney will go straight down there. He will get me a bond. A bond will be set. I said, you pay the bond immediately. Get me out before they can run my fingerprints because my identity won't be in question. So I say that to her and she goes, oh, okay, okay. I'd go cash a check, come back. We drive. We go do something. We'd go rock climbing or something. We'd come

back. Hey, let's swing by a bank. We'd'd swing by we'd cash a check for eight grand yeah we'd come back we'd go play golf we'd go shopping we'd come back we'd go cash a check for five thousand dollars and every time i would walk in the bank she would say wait a minute what if you get arrested i go what the fuck what do you mean the same thing that i told you four hours ago you get me in a turn i know i know i know jesus so at one point, I get frustrated. It's been going on for weeks. We've got $200,000, $300,000 at least. And how long since – just for timeline, how long since you left Tampa at this point?

Oh, this has been months. Yeah. Months. Because remember, it was – they were several months behind. And what year is this approximately? 2004. Okay. So at this point, I – so I'm going – I go into a bank one time, and I walk in the bank.

It was SunTrust Bank. I was Scott Cugnow, and I borrowed the money in the name of Michael Shanahan. I go in the bank, and I get tired of going in these banks, and I just want to wrap it up. And I have a check for $29,000. So I go in, and I say to becky i'm gonna go cash this check for 29 grand and she goes you said nothing over ten thousand dollars i said i know but i'm i said i don't care i'll fill out the ccr i mean the ctr the cash transaction report i'll fill it out i don't give a you're getting a little impatient you get sloppy when you get you know i get cocky so

i walk in i go up to the counter. Here's $29,000 check. Here's my ID. Here's my, my, uh, here's my credit card. And she looks, she goes, um, do you have an account here? And she goes, okay, well I saw large check. And I said, yeah, but I was told that you guys did cash transactions, large cash transactions. And she went, we do. Why don't you just deposit it? And I went, I don't want to deposit it. I don't have a bank account in Georgia. It's in Florida. I don't want to wait. I need the money. I need to pay some people. And she went, can you have a seat over there? I said, sure. So I go sit down. The manager comes out. He's got my ID. He's got the check.

He's got the credit card. And he looks at me and said, okay, Mr. Coggenow, why don't you deposit? I explained the same thing and he says okay um i'll be right back and he walks in the back a couple minutes go by he comes back and he says um so how why do you why do you need the money like why are you getting the cash and i said she he's you understand we have to fill out a transaction report? I said, yeah, I understand. And he goes,

let me, and he gets the information. Okay. And I said, because I explained to him, well, I need cash because I have to pay

workers who have done work. And I typically write them a check and I cash their checks. And what did you say your business was? Construction. And he says, okay,

that makes sense. That makes sense. And then he goes, hold on. And he leaves. And I remember Becky kept calling me. Becky calls and she's like, she's called my phone rings. I go, what's up? And she goes, what's going on? okay that makes sense that makes sense and then he goes hold on and he leaves and i remember becky kept calling me becky calls and she's like she's called my phone rings like what's up and she's what's going on what have you been there for like 15 minutes i go i know this guy's being a dick

he won't give me the money he's we're arguing she's like come on just leave get in the car get the guy said he's got my driver's license he's got a 29 000 check if i leave he's definitely calling the cops so i said i'm gonna write it out write it out. She goes, oh, my God, I'm freaking out. I go, calm down. Don't call me again. Hang up the phone. You know, comes back out. He asked me another question.

Now I'm frustrated. He goes back in. He leaves. Okay, fine. Comes back out. Another question. How'd you get the check? And I go, I did.

I work for a construction company. I said, I own part of the construction company. I said, it doesn't matter. I said, the point is that we did an addition on this guy's house. He just refinanced his house. He gave me the check. And they go, okay, that makes sense. Guy walks off again.

I'm sitting there. Becky's calling. Phone's ringing. I'm telling her, stop calling me. Call me if the cops pull in the front. Call me. Don't call back. Hang up. Then my phone rings. I look at the cops pull in the front. Call me. Don't call back. Hang up.

Then my phone rings. I look at the phone, and it's a phone number I don't recognize. So I pick it up, and I go, hello? And then somebody goes, hi, is this Mr. Shanahan? And I went, is this Michael Shanahan? I said, this is Michael Shanahan. And she goes, hi, this is Laura from SunTrust Bank. So Laura is calling from the back of the bank. And I went, oh, okay. Yeah. What's up, Laura?

And she says, hi, we have someone here trying to cash a rather large check. And we were wondering if you could verify the funds. I said, oh yeah. And she said, And she said, she goes, it's for $29,000. I said, oh, yeah, yeah. That's Scott Cugno. $29,000. She goes, oh, okay. So it's good. I'm just verifying the payee and then it's a rather large check.

I said, absolutely. I understand. I understand. Yeah, it's good. It's totally good. And you're in the bank. In the bank. And she goes, okay.

All right. Well, thank you. I said, hey, by the way, I said, how did you get this number? She goes, oh, well, that check was drawn on an account for a title company. That she said, and so we called the title company and they said they had refinanced the house.

And they gave us your phone number. I hope that's okay. I said, perfectly okay. No problem. I'm glad. Thank you. You know, Scott Cugno, good guy. Bye.

Hang up. You wave to the camera up there too. Put the phone down. You know, hold the phone for a good guy. Bye. Hang up. You wave to the camera up there, too. Put the phone down. You know, hold the phone for a little bit. Okay, thanks. Bye. Hang on. Keep talking, so in case she's staring at me, right?

So, hang up the phone. About five minutes later, she and the manager come out. Well, somebody. I don't know if it was her, but some woman. And the manager comes out, and he goes, Mr. Cugno, here's your money. He counts out the money, you know, a thousand here, a thousand of a thousand. He counts out $29,000. He counts it out twice.

She looks at it. She goes, okay. Scoop it up. I stand up. And as I'm shoving it in my pockets like a fucking homeless person, like a hobo or something, like I'm shoving it into both my pockets, right? He looks at me and I'm getting ready to leave. And he says, Mr. Cogno, he said, I'd like to say I feel very apprehensive about this transaction. And I go, really? What is it exactly? He goes, you know, I can't put my finger on it. I go, it'll come to you. And I walk right out of the bit, out of the bag listen i'm terrified like if

you ask that guy he'd say no the guy was perfectly fine he hung out he asked me to get him a soda like i asked him i was like hey can you give me a soda or something i'm probably if i have to wait here i mean do you have any soda and he's like uh yeah he went and got me a seven like i like i mean i'm getting me like a diet sprite or something you know a seven up i mean i'm perfectly at ease you would have never known but that might have been why inside trembling yeah so yeah he gives me the money i walk out i remember i jumped in i got in the car started the car and i was like holy shit she goes what happened what happened i tell her what happened i said i'm telling you right now there used to be a tv show called masterminds i go this is going in my masterminds uh episode she was just like what the hell i said i'm telling you so anyway we end up leaving atlanta

we go to charlotte north carolina why'd you choose charlotte um you know we'd been once um you know becky would look up on lines good nice cities you know to to stay in and it was nice you know charlotte was nice it reminded me of tampa um nicer than tampa i think in and it was nice you know starlet was nice it reminded me of tampa um nicer than tampa i think in general it was just a super nice area it was a bank of america wachovia like all these big banks had their headquarters downtown um and you know keep your enemies close so i uh that had nothing to do with it by the way we didn't find that out till later till we actually got there and we realized like one of their headquarters was I uh that had nothing to do with it by the way we didn't find that out until later until we actually got there and we realized like one of their headquarters was right across the street from

where I live I didn't even think of that that's hilarious we go there I forget we rented this place as like a couple grand like $1800 or $2000 a month it was a nice place back then man it was nice it was super nice

it was in this huge high rise in downtown. So I'm saying it's like a bougie place. Yeah. Oh yeah. It was super nice. Listen, it was polished concrete floors, stainless steel. It was over the top and nobody lived there. It was nice. It was a brand new place. So we move in. I buy an Affinity affinity sports car she buys a car she then she gets another car we get like the 300 350z's had just come out the new 350z like got one of those like we're just being stupid you know i think we had three vehicles and so we we go there and then but i didn't want to run a scam there so i I get there, and I'm living there as –

Well, how much money do you have left at this point? We've got $400,000, maybe $400,000. We've only spent maybe $100,000, $150,000. After buying the cars? Yeah. Well, no, I'm financing most of the car. Okay. All right, fair.

I can finance anything. I mean, listen, I'm going to – I don't doubt that. I'm going to – keep in mind, this whole time I'm building credit histories. I'm finance anything. I mean, listen, I'm going to. I don't doubt that. I'm going to, you know, I'm built. Keep in mind this whole time I'm building credit histories. I'm building synthetic identities. I keep forgetting that like you're also like you're incentivized to do that as well. Oh, yeah. I'm always working.

Yeah. Listen, you can ask like my current girlfriend. Like I work like 60, 70 hours a week. I'm always doing something. You're a machine, man. You know, I just. I love your work ethic. Yeah.

I mean, the thing is, is that like her, to most people, you know, work is work. They go to Walmart or they go to their job at the accounting firm. They work eight hours. They come home. But to me, I'm answering calls all night. I'm answering this. I'm texting. I'm doing this.

I'm doing editing. I'm doing this. I'm writing stuff. I'm writing email. To me, I'm working all the, you know, I might sit down and talk and have dinner with you for 15 minutes. I go right back on the computer. We're watching TV. I'm writing stuff. I'm writing email. To me, I'm working all the – I might sit down and talk and have dinner with you for 15 minutes. I go right back on the computer. We're watching TV. I'm answering comments.

Yeah, you're a machine. You have the YouTube channel. You put out so much content on there. What's the official name of the channel? Matt Cox? Yeah, it's Matthew Cox Inside True Crime. Okay, so everyone go subscribe. And then you have multiple TikToks.

You do interview shows. You do your own content. You go and travel and do content for different people all the time. How many books have you written now? Seven. Jesus Christ. I'm working on my eighth book. Now, how many of them were done in prison?

Five. So you still have written three books in the last – Two books. I wrote five – I've written seven, so i wrote two while i got out but i had the outlines pretty thoroughly done uh uh pretty good so it was really just the writing the outline the time man i mean it's it's very impressive i wake up at four o'clock every morning i go to bed about we go to bed at like 8 30 or 9 every you know maybe 10 wake up i get like maybe four or five hours of sleep. Boziak goes to bed at nine? Boziak sleeps 12 hours a day. He sleeps, listen, and Boziak, I barely eat.

Boziak eats like a 13-year-old child. He eats, he'll go eat a couple hamburgers. I mean, everything is fast food and hamburgers and this and that. He takes in 6,000 calories and he weighs 145 pounds. He's in good shape, man. It's ridiculous. Good genes. Some people, me, if I break 1,500 calories a day, I start to balloon up.

You're in Charlotte, you were saying. I'm in Charlotte. I'm always working on – I'm always creating people. By this point, I told you I'm getting Social Security to issue me social security cards to children that don't even exist. Yeah, you covered that in the last episode very well. So we'll leave that there. So I've done that. I'm getting fake IDs.

I got a guy by the name of Michael Eckert. I remember Becky's living as somebody named Michelle something because she used to say, oh, my God, Michael and Michelle. Like, oh, my God, we're like Eminem. You know, it's just so it's like not really really at this point. I don't want her around anymore. I can't stand. I can't believe you haven't like kicked her out yet. Oh, that's nothing.

She's she's screen. She would get no arguments at two o'clock in the morning. She's had the cops called a couple of times because she's great. We're now in an apartment building. So you scream at two in the morning in an upper class, upper middle class apartment in downtown Charlotte, the police show up. Yeah. So I'm living in

Charlotte, but I go to Columbia, South Carolina and I buy two houses. Well, I'm sorry. At this point, we go to Las Vegas. So we go to Las Vegas and we give her family becky's family a bunch of money not we she so i go she goes and gives them i forget what it was at that point

forty or fifty thousand dollars she goes she gives them a bunch of money um and we we survey a bunch of homeless people so at this point i decide we're going to start surveying homeless people. Now, what goes into that decision? So don't judge me. So what happens is my concern was when I got Michael Eckert's information, he told me he had been arrested. He'd had a DUI. And so when he had the DUI, Becky and I were driving, and i had a driver's license in his name and i'm driving and like i i got pulled over and got a ticket like so i got so many tickets in michael eckert's name i went to driving school

with him yeah because i was going to lose his license you know when you don't care about the points and or the money yeah i'm driving 95 100 miles an hour of getting pulled over they're giving me a four or five hundred dollar ticket i'm like yeah let's wrap this up you know what do i care i'm not gonna be this guy but i start thinking i'm gonna lose this guy's license you again bill thanks yeah exactly and so i got pulled over one time when i had like 30 grand stuffed in in the in the visor of my car. Literally, the cash is dangling. The cop, he had the big rimmed hat.

He's talking to me and he couldn't see. I was thinking, if this guy searches the car right now, I'm done. I've got multiple IDs in the back in a big accordion file folder. I'm done. What am I going to do god i can't believe i did

i usually didn't do stuff like that and i just happened to i thought he sees all this cash he's gonna you know he's yeah exactly it's bad like even i'm like yeah you're right i deserve that totally you made the right move so um anyway uh so we're driving after i get a ticket and she's like you weren't even worried or anything i was was like, well, you know what I am worried about? I said, I'm not worried. The car's in this guy's name. I have full insurance. The car's in his name.

It's finance. I have a driver's license. I have full coverage insurance. I'm not concerned. What I'm concerned about is I said, what if this guy gets another DUI? Like he told me he had a DUI four or five years ago while I was taking his application for some reason I didn't even ask about it I just asked if you have any felonies he said well I got I had a DUI a few years ago is that an issue I said no no I just have to ask and I said what if he gets a

fucking DUI I could be driving around on a suspended license and not even know it and so I remember we were pulling up to a stoplight on we were getting off the interstate to go get like lunch. And she goes, I said, we need to find people that like viable identities for people that like aren't using them. And she was like, what? She said like prisoners or like mental patients. Like who? And I went, I don't know. I'm like, I'm not sure how I would even go about doing that. I could probably figure out how to get people in prison to give me their information.

And I was saying, I was like, but then they may have warrants. I don't know what that entails. And then I looked over and there's a guy sitting there holding a will work for food sign. And I went like, that guy. That guy right there. And she goes, the hobo?

Like, who says hobo? Nobody uses hobo. She goes, the hobo? Ando and i was like yeah absolutely so i pull over i walk over to the guy and i said hey bro and he's like yeah what's up and i said i said let me ask you some questions and he just looked at me i'll give you 20 bucks right now and answer some questions and he goes okay and i said listen man i said um so i started asking him questions when was the last time you were gainfully employed? Do you have a driver's license?

He goes, I don't know. I said, what do you mean you don't know? Is it DUI? He said, I think it just expired. I go, you just let it go? He's like, well, he goes, well, you see a car? He goes, I don't drive. And I went, well, I thought maybe you had lost it for a DUI.

He goes, no, it just expired. I don't have a car. And I went, okay. I said, do you have any felonies? He goes, no, I mean, I've got a bunch of misdemeanors like, you know, peeing in public or being drunk or something. I said, are you on probation? He goes, no, guys like us don't get probation. I went, what do you mean? He said, well, I mean, how am I going to get probation? He said, I don't have a house. Like I'm unsupervisable. And he said, no, they have the judge. They put me in jail for 30 days maybe the judge gives me 60 i do another few days and they let me back out he

said they can't so you were okay with people with that on their record yeah with misdemeanors yeah sure that was fine the bank doesn't have any clue so i i said okay okay and then i remember i gave him i he kind of looked at me like wrap this up up. And I was like, but my $20, well, it was ticking. So I gave him another 20 bucks, asked him a few more questions. I remember one of the questions was, I go, do you think you'll ever be gainfully employed again? And I remember he went, no, because this is it for me. I remember thinking, oh, that's a little sad, but thank you. I like where your head's at.

You've given up on society. You're ready to live in the woods. Apparently, he lived in the woods back there. Oh, God. Yeah, so I was like, okay, cool. So I hop up and I leave. And I remember I told Beckett. Did you get his social security?

No, I wasn't prepared. You weren't prepared. I wasn't prepared for that. So what he did tell me was, he told me halfway through, he goes, what are you doing? Taking a survey? And I went,

I don't know, what do you mean? I said, a lot of people survey you? And he goes, well, I mean like social workers and stuff come out. They'll do like surveys and stuff. And he goes,

I mean, or if you go to like the Salvation Army to check in to Salvation Army and try and stay there for a few days, he goes, they ask you to fill out like a form. And you're like, Becky, we are now social workers. We now work for the Salvation Army.

I made a badge. You know, it's really funny. I made a badge using my social – the picture on my social security – using the picture on my wanted poster. I used that picture on my social on my salvation army badge the badge said that i was a statistical surveyor so it's on there and i made a little the wanted matt cox oh it's horrible it's it make i look like the joker oh my you did not use this absolutely i'm putting this in the quick that one uh wait no that one no look at that's my joker picture you you actually literally do look like the joker in that like it looks like

you're wearing face makeup minus the white shit you use that as a south asian army picture yeah you look like you're ready fucking fucking invade the Congo. Listen, these guys were concerned about the 20 bucks. It's a Frank Amadeo reference, by the way. You know, you know. So,

I, um, I end up making this survey form. It's 17 questions long. It says it's a statistical, federal statistical survey form, uh, 2506. I don't know.

Um, and so, I even put, like, a little recycle thing at the bottom i put federal forms such like i pulled all this stuff off you know it's all bullshit i do i want to say this real fast for your benefit as well for the people out there who are listening on apple and for now just listening on spotify more to come there but But you may actually want to watch some of Matt say this stuff on YouTube because the facial expressions that you're missing when you're listening are fucking incredible.

Go ahead. You know what you really ought to look at is the hair drop too. Because look at that picture. That picture, imagine, that's me trying to cover it up. I was super, super balding. Really? Yeah, you saw the picture. Look at it up. I was super super balding really Yeah, you saw the pictures look at the picture look out look. I didn't even notice that when I looked at it. Oh

Wait, I just did Matt Cox look That one I can kind it a little you can tell a little you can see up like like up and look at this one That one you can tell that one, but that's like a those are profile Those are like can't candid pictures these profile ones you can tell that one but that's like a those are profile those are like can't candid pictures these profile ones you can't tell no but i'm also trying to cover it i'm parting my hair in the middle and parting it in the middle with it combed over that's the comb over so you can imagine how far back it went okay it was not good it was in a good situation you were losing it i mean it's an effort to put that picture as your profile picture on Match.

So what happened is I make this form, I make a badge, and I start going out and I start surveying homeless people. I would walk up to them and I'd go, hey, bro, you got a minute? I said, I work for the Salvation Army. We're doing surveys to try and determine where we place our next homeless facility. I used to say indigent, but they would go, what? And I'd go, it's a homeless facility? And I have to find a 30-year-old, guys that are in their mid to early 30s who are white. Like, that's not easy as a homeless guy.

You don't have the bell with you, do you? The what? You're not ringing the Salvation Army bell, right? No, no. I'm a survey taker. Just making sure. I don't know. I don't even know if Salvation Army bill, right? No, no. I'm a survey taker. Just making sure. I don't even know if Salvation Army has survey takers. But I know that I know more than these guys.

And what they were most concerned about is because they would always say, I'd say, hey, take a survey right now. It's 17 questions. They'd go, I'm not interested. And I'd say, it pays $20 cash right now. Suddenly I'm interested. And they'd go, right now. You're going to give me $20 right now. Your $20 takes five minutes.

Yeah, man, what do you need? I'd have to show them the money. I realize if you flash the money, they would be like, huh? Yeah. And then I'd say,

yeah, full name, date of birth, social security number, mother's maiden name, what county and state were you born in? Have you ever been

in the military? And I just go through the whole thing. Boom, boom, all the way through. Do you receive social security, social security disability? Do you receive food stamps? I had asked a bunch of stuff I don't even need. You get them talking.

Just get them saying yeah. And once they start answering, they just spill everything. So I get all the information. And then I would have them sign it, you know, for my supervisor, I guess. I don't know. For an arts degree as well. And then I leave. And now I get their information.

I'd go home. I'd pull up the application and I would order a copy of their birth certificate. I would order a copy of their driving record. Between client meetings, managing your business, and everyday tasks, who has time to worry about website hosting?

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Kinsta.com. That's K-I-N-S-T-A dot com. Kinsta. Simply better hosting. I would order a copy of their social security card. I would order a copy of, I would register the vote in their name. I would, and of course now I know what state they have ID in. So I wouldn't go to a state where they had, I wouldn't register to vote in the state they registered. You know, they had ID in because I have to vote in the state they registered you know they they had a id in because i have to go in the dmv so but at this point i'm now going in and getting home ids in homeless people's names so becky and i go to stop stop stop judging so that's going to be a clip

like that's a clip yeah that's a short right there that's probably a short so i feel bad we'll get don't i look like i feel bad no you know i'm broken up the funny thing is like people who aren't familiar with you like they wouldn't think that right now but i've talked with you about the no they haven't gotten they hate me they think i'm disgusting and what a horrible horrible human being i am and that's fine I sleep like a baby so do I have I just drank the water with on the lips with it do I have how's that no you're good you won't die of poisoning don't worry about it I'm not concerned I'm concerned about how I look no you look great I'm fine with dying of poisoning I can't even see it okay so and I have

like two lines right here and you let me go the whole podcast. I think you're the first guy to drink off the Sharpie. Nice job. Well done. Anyway, so you get all these homeless IDs. And I meet a guy and I survey several guys in Vegas and I meet a guy named Gary Sullivan. Oh, Gary. Gary Sullivan is homeless. I pull up to this, you know, an area where there's some homeless guys.

I pull up and I get out of the car. And Becky told me, hey, let's go here. So we go here. I get out and there's a couple of guys sitting on a bench and I see him. And as he gets closer, I remember him thinking, hey, he may not be homeless. You know what I'm saying? Like, I was like, it's not that bad of shape. And I saw him.

He's like 5'11", maybe 6 foot. I'm going to say 5'11". He of shape and I saw him he's like 5 11 maybe six foot I'm gonna say 5 11 he walks up and I said hey man uh and he goes yeah what do you need and I went um I'm taking surveys for the Salvation Army we're trying to determine he's I'm not interested no bro I said it pays 20 bucks right now he's 20 bucks you're giving me cash right now I said yeah and he goes uh yeah man what's up I said okay I said uh first of all I said are you I hate to ask you this are you homeless's up? I said, okay. I said, first of all, I said, I hate to ask you this. Are you homeless? He said, yeah. I said, oh, okay.

Like, I mean, he was pretty well put together. He had all his teeth. I mean, he was, you know, he was in good shape. So I was like, okay, he's a little disheveled. But so I take your name, date of birth, social security, another, what's your mother's maiden name? I get all of his information. And I get in the car. And so while I'm taking the information, I said, do you have any felonies?

He goes, I have a few. I have a few felonies. No, he said, I have a few misdemeanors, I think he said. And I go, for what? And he goes, prostitution. And I went, prostitution. And for me, prostitution, women get arrested for prostitution. Men get arrested for solicitation.

Like, it didn't occur to me that he was a male prostitute and right so i went prostitution and my head went to solicitation too yeah so i looked at him and he goes he said and he could tell and he goes yeah yeah he said i offered to blow a cop for 20 bucks and he said and i went oh you're a you're a male prostitute and he looked looked at me. He goes, yeah. He said, well, he goes, I mean, a girl's got to do what a girl's got to do. Like that. But he said it real, you know, a girl's got to do what a girl's got to do. He immediately became flamboyant.

And I was like, oh, okay. Okay. So I get the rest of his information and then I leave. When I go back to the car, Becky's like laughing. Because it turns out that area was known for sex workers and she could see the guy she thought prostitute yeah talk to that guy he thought you were in salvation army yeah he's so i give him the 20 bucks and i get in my car and i leave and i'm and she's like how's your boyfriend and i'm like man i said what the fuck i said and she's a go, he's a prostitute. She goes, yeah, I figured he was. So anyway, we get to Charlotte.

I go to Columbia, South Carolina. And I, I, I've now, I get an ID in his name, in the name Gary Solomon. I go and I buy two houses. I get a realtor. I go and I find a house. One get a realtor. I go and I find a house. One house is going for like $110,000. I convince the owner to owner finance it. I get put down 10 grand.

He owner finances it. I immediately go to public records, satisfy the loan on his house. Just like you did in Atlanta. Just the same way. Only the difference is we actually have a closing the house is in my name now it's in the name Gary Sullivan so I get rid of him completely so then I go and I find another house a guy uh by the name of Dr. Brown so I go to Dr. Brown at Bridget Brown and Bruce Brown um I go there and the real estate agent opens the door.

I walk inside. I think I went halfway up the stairs. I don't even go upstairs. We went to five of these things. Walk up, I go, yeah, looks great. Let's put a fucking contract on. Come back. This guy's got to be like, this guy's a maniac. We put five contracts in a day. We put five contracts in

on houses. I don't care what your house looks like as long as it's not missing chunks of drywall and it's not raining inside and this was a nice house this house is worth 225 000 so i say look tell them i'll put down 20 on on this house and the other one no i put down 10 on both houses see if they'll owner finance it keep in mind what does owner finance mean again it just means that i can pay like we have a closing the deed transfers into my name and i make payments to you for the mortgage so you hold a mortgage the title company will write up a mortgage and file a mortgage now the browns actually have a mortgage on their house worth about two hundred thousand dollars so i tell them we'll do a

wraparound mortgage which means i'll pay you you also get a mortgage on your house, and I'll pay you, and you can pay the first mortgage. That's perfectly legal. And so I explain it to their realtor. My realtor explains it to their realtor. Their realtor comes back and says, look, I've heard of this before, but I don't really understand how it works. I explain it to them. So I'm now – these are realtors that have 20 years' experience. I'm explaining how this works.

They don't know. So, I mean, it's at this point I start realizing like, I know so much about real estate that guys that have been doing it forever just don't know. These are real estate agents, they have no clue. And you worked, you know, for people that didn't hear the last one, you worked in that business.

Yeah. Like you get it. Right, right. Inside out. Super creative. And this is perfectly legal. And you know, they come back and they're like, yeah, well, what if this happens? I'm like, if this happens i'm like if this happens we can do this what if we want to do we can do this okay what about this we can do this and i explain i i have answers to all their rebuttals so they agreed to own or finance the house we have a closing i go to the

closing i give them twenty five thousand dollars down um uh they hold a sec they hold a wraparound first mortgage and i owe them every month i have to pay them like eighteen hundred dollars or something and then they pay their mortgage company same thing with the first guy i think i pay him 900 bucks or something so god i would never do that brutal i haven't i haven't tried to convince you yet. I think within 10 minutes, I could convince you. Listen, they didn't want to do it either. I talked to them for 10 minutes on the phone, and their real estate agent's like, I think it's a great deal. He was telling them no.

Then he was like, absolutely. So you're basically throwing in juice somehow. You're throwing in extra money somewhere. Look, first of all, they couldn't sell their house. You're getting top dollar for your house. You're getting the same amount of money you would get if I came in with cash. So what's the problem? And I'm paying you.

And I even am willing to sign a deed in lieu of foreclosure. So if I don't pay, you can file the deed in lieu of foreclosure, and you can just take the house from me. You don't even have to foreclose. It's a win-win for you. Well, I mean, with the exception of Matt Cox. So, well, Gary Sanchez. Yeah, Gary, no, Gary Sanchez, Gary Sullivan. So, what happens is I immediately go downtown. I satisfy their loan on the house and I satisfy the wraparound mortgage. So, there's no mortgage on the house. And I do the wraparound mortgage. So there's no mortgage on the house.

And I do that by signing using the name C. Montgomery Burns, the aging tycoon from The Simpsons. So I sign it C. Montgomery Burns. I notarize it. I say it works for the bank. Yeah. See, that's the kind of thing you do. That's the kind of thing you do. And I think I mentioned this last time. This is the kind of thing you do. That's the kind of thing you do. And I think I mentioned this last time.

This is the kind of thing you do. And then you think it's, I thought it was clever. And then I got in front of the judge. And it's the kind of thing where it's just like, you fucking psychopath. Like, you signed using cartoon character names. I'm like, listen. Hear me out. I know how it sounds.

But I mean, let's take the morality out of it, Your Honor. It's pretty funny. You have to have fun. It's pretty funny. You have to have fun. Anyway, no sense of humor. No. So what ends up happening is I – so I do that.

And I now own two pieces of property free and clear. I then turn around and I go to multiple banks and i borrow money against mortgages against them you know so the one house i get because you did the thing again where you forge it and get the public record changed that's all yeah i went downtown i satisfied the loans that they had on public records and then so now i own the houses free and clear in the name of gary sullivan's name now gary sullivan has no credit he's got a couple credit cards but he didn't even have credit scores at this point i actually pay off like 15 or 20000 worth of medical collections he had. He had some kind of an accident.

And I've got an ID in his name. So I've opened up several bank accounts in his name and several corporate accounts. And I opened up a corporation in his name so I could get additional – Sounds – you're very judgy. Look, I'm just sitting across here listening...counts. You're very judgy. Look, I'm just sitting across here listening to you talk. You keep going. Anyway, so I've got, whatever, six, nine bank accounts, you know.

Six or nine. No, not six. Six or nine. I don't know. So a lot of them. I've got a bunch of bank accounts. And I'm bank counting other people's names. And by this point, I'm now on the Secret Services Most Wanted list. I'm not number now like now i'm on the secret services most wanted list i'm not number one but i'm on the list have you seen it because this is what maybe like nine months out now something like that on the run a year um this is yeah this is coming up on

about a year okay so have you seen any news reports? I've seen the reports. Of course I've seen them. Like on TV or anything at this point of view? Not on TV, but there's tons of news. Well, okay. No, at this point, when we left Atlanta, yeah, I'm glad you mentioned that. When we left Atlanta, there was a bunch of Atlanta local news stations on Atlanta that had our pictures on it. John and Jane Doe.

We've been indicted as John and Jane Doe because they didn't know who we were. Now, they figured it out pretty quick, but initially we were immediately indicted as John and Jane Doe. But didn't the task force know it was Matthew B. Cox? No, no, but this is – keep in mind the Secret Service, this is in Atlanta. We left Tampa, went to Atlanta, committed a completely different crime, not related to Matt Cox. Oh, my God.

They were – oh, I missed that. I thought you were talking about the original crimes that you committed. You're saying that they were covering you for those crimes in Atlanta and you were just John and Jane. Oh, no. I've been indicted. Been indicted like in Tampa. But that's the Atlanta thing is what got you on the list. Yes.

But not as your name. No, as John and Jane. Just a sketch, right? Well, once our fingerprints come back, like once they start getting the checks in, they eventually put it together fairly quickly. Okay. That's interesting. The feds have a system where they can put in different aspects of a crime that will tell you other people that have been arrested for similar crimes. Right. And when they start putting in identity theft, bank fraud, mortgage fraud, you know, financial,

and they start listing, you know, synthetic identities, they start listing the things that I'd done. Like I'm like, it's immediately I come up. But on top of that, I put my actual fingerprints on checks and things. You know, I wasn't trying to hide. Like if you're already wanted, you're wanted. It's over.

So I, so anyway, I go back and i've i've got all these mortgages i'm starting to do closings i'm scheduling scheduling closings and where is this in uh columbus uh columbia south carolina right so so what happens is i i close on like five loans on this one house and it's like five or $600,000 on the one house, the smaller house, the one that's like $110,000. And so I've got, you know, I've got these things are like $96,000, $100,000 loans. So those are closing, and I've scheduled a bunch of closings for the second house, the bigger, the $225,000. So I'm trying to do them all pretty close. And those loans are going to close soon. They're coming within a week or two. I'm closing, I'm starting, you know, so I've already closed like,

I closed like five loans in like two days in one, in Gary Sullivan's name. And at one point, I get a phone call from, I get a phone call from somebody with Washington Mutual, a lawyer with Washington Mutual. And he says, is this Gary Sullivan? I've got a bunch of phones, so I'm going to pick it up. Yeah, this is Gary Sullivan. I think so. Let me check. I put a piece of tape on the back of the phone.

It says Gary Sullivan's phone. Yeah, this is Gary. And he says, hey, I'm a lawyer with whatever, Washington Mutual. I said, okay. And he says, hey, I'm a lawyer with whatever, Washington Mutual. I said, okay. He said, we were contacted by a title company, and apparently we are not in – we got you a first mortgage, but apparently you have three or four other mortgages on this house that are all first mortgages. And we didn't know that. We're a first mortgage, but we're not in first position.'re in like third position how did they find it out the title company called them like i could

explain the whole thing on how that happened but that's the 10 minutes yeah we don't need to do like full details but basically you hadn't successfully pulled off that thing where you clear the loans yet i so they all got recorded uh-huh during the course of this a title company doing another loan stumbled upon it you know I could explain why how long but it doesn't matter that point is they stumble on it I feel it's not my it wasn't as a result of anything I had done wrong it was a nosy person that title company whatever that's you just fly in the ointment. You just can't account for those things, which is why I'm, my biggest fear about committing fraud to this day. There's some things you just cannot account for. So, she ended up calling Washington Mutual. They called me. They said, here's the

issue. I said, oh, whoa, whoa, whoa. Okay. And the guy said, look, I'm hoping there's some way we can resolve this because this is fraud. I said, ah, listen, let's not get crazy. I said, look, I said, have you mentioned this to anybody, like any law enforcement or anything like that? He said, no, no, it just came to my attention. I'm trying to do a collection and try and figure this out before we have to get that far. I said, well, let's, I think the best course of action here is to get your company their money back, right? And he said, absolutely. I said, so if I can arrange that, we can make this go away.

He said, I don't have a problem with that. I just want our money back. I said, okay, give me about a couple hours. I'll call you back in a couple hours. I hang up the phone. I tell Becky what happened. She's freaking out. Oh my God, let's pack up.

Let's leave. I said, stop. So I jump in my car i drive from charlotte all the way to columbia columbia uh columb is it i think it's columbia columb columbia i think it's columbia south carolina i go to columbia south carolina on the way i call my corporate attorney gary sullivan's corporate attorney i say hey man listen this is this is gary sullivan uh you did this yeah, Gary, I remember you. I said, great. Listen, man, I said I need to talk to you. How long have they been working for you?

A month. Okay. I'm a problem. Yeah. So he says, yeah, yeah, yeah. He says, okay. And I tell him, look, I got a problem. Here's what's going on.

Boom, boom, boom. I kind of briefly explain it because I don't really know much about that. It sounds possibly criminal. He said, my partner is a criminal attorney. Let me get him involved and we'll have a meeting with you. I said, no problem. I'm on my way right now because we need to resolve this immediately. I don't care what it costs. He said, no, no. He said, we're both here. We're both here. He said, come on. I come, I show up, we go in the conference room. I explain, okay, here's what happened. I bought this house. I told him I paid for it free and clear. He said, okay.

I said, I then borrowed a mortgage from this bank. He said, oh, okay. What was I saying? And this one. Oh, okay. And this one. Oh, and this one and this one. So I got like five or six mortgages on this place.

And he goes, okay. I said, Washington Mutual is supposed to be in first mortgage. They're all first mortgages. They found out that they're actually in like third place or something, whatever their placement is. And he goes, oh, Jesus. I said, right. And I said, so I've already talked to them. They've arraigned. They've agreed that I can just pay them back and they won't contact the FBI or anybody. He goes, well, why would they call the FBI? He goes, this sounds to me like it's just a creative financing error. And I remember thinking, the FBI and Secret Service are not chasing me around the country because of creative financing errors.

And he's like, Gary, this is – I don't believe this is criminal. Really? And I said, I hear – he's fucking – he just doesn't want to be involved in covering up a crime. But you have the criminal attorney in there, right? You have the corporate – That's a criminal attorney saying this. So the criminal attorney is saying that. Yeah, he's fucking –

Yeah, he wasn't a very good criminal attorney. Yeah, so I mean it's clearly fraud. But I look at him and I said, look, I like where you're at. I like where your head's at. And I said, okay, fine. I said, so do you still have the money? I said, absolutely. I can pay them.

I said, but I need you to call their attorney, get it in writing that they agree that it's just a small minor issue and that they're not going to contact and we can resolve this in-house and he says okay i don't have a problem with that and you know so they're like all right and so i sit there and i went um okay we'll find out i need to get them get them the money we're gonna have to call and he goes okay and he said well gary that's that's washington mutual what about the other the other mortgages and And I looked at him and I went, okay, well, what do you mean? I said, this is Washington Mutual figured this out. The other guys don't know.

He goes, yeah, I know, but what if they find out? What if they find out and they want their money back? I go, well, then I leave town. And he looks at me and he starts laughing. He and the other guys, they start laughing. They go, Gary, you can't just leave town. They know your name, your social security number. They'll find you. And I go, well, you're assuming my name is Gary Sullivan.

And the look on their faces was just priceless. I mean, and I did. I immediately, when they were staring at me, I remember thinking, they don't meet a lot of guys like me. And I thought, that's that look. That's that who am i sitting across from look that's what that look is he doesn't okay and so they just the blood yeah they just both of them were like what the fuck is going on and so the guy looks at me and he goes um i remember he said he goes um he goes okay yeah well uh he goes we'll cross that bridge when we come to it. I said, exactly. My current problem is Washington Mutual.

Right back to business. Let's resolve that. We'll discuss the other stuff later. Call them. They call. They say, Washington Mutual says he owes us, whatever, $98,000. They want yield spread. They want the first payment.

They want a bunch of them. And he's arguing with them.'s make it a cool hundred thousand and he says he's like he's like okay okay and then they say just tell him to get a cashier's check and bring it to the closest washington mutual i said i'm not going in a washington mutual no i said i'll go get a cashier's check bring it to you you. You can go to Washington Mutual. You can deposit it. You can make a copy and send it to him. The attorney.

Yeah. And he goes, okay, okay, go do that. So I get my- Could he get in trouble for knowing that's part of a criminal engagement? Look, could he? I've had criminal defense attorneys telling me that, oh yeah, well, he definitely- If you haven't gotten an 8 Sleep Pod Pro cover yet, what are you doing? The 8 Sleep Pod Pro cover comes in queen or king sizes. It goes right on top of your current mattress and it is wired directly into 8 Sleep's proprietary app,

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oh, he's definitely breaking the law. And others are like, well, it's questionable. You know, depends on what he knows, you know, how much he knows, if he could argue it, you know, let's face it. There are criminal defense attorneys that represent drug dealers that take the drug dealer money.

Oh, all of them. Right. Literally all of them. Right. So it's like, that's illegal. And then, but they'll get in front of the judge and argue and drug dealer money. Oh, all of them. Right. Literally all of them. Right. So it's like, that's illegal. Yeah. And then, but they'll get in front of the judge and argue and keep the money. They find creative ways and the judge can't, it's amazing.

Right. The judge can't even argue it. And keep in mind, this isn't a federal, this is a state criminal defense attorney that's just in this little town. So he knows the judges. Like these, this isn't like being in Atlanta or New York where you're just one of that – like they don't even remember your name and they're just applying the law. Like these guys play golf with each other. It's like, I know Jim.

He's not going to throw me in jail because I happen to know. And I'm saying it's a creative – like if he had said, well, this is clearly a crime. Well, let's cover it up. That would have been different. Which they also couldn't prove technically unless you testified to that. mean yeah a lot of holes in this yeah yeah so he felt comfortable i went and got the check cashier's check i came back i gave it to him and i remember i sat down and he goes okay well we need to discuss our fee and i remember thinking cash i would have done that earlier but i said okay and he goes um i said i mean you you worked about 15 minutes to 30 minutes

i said what's that worth he goes i was thinking about 1500 bucks and i were no problem i pull up start counting out cash and i remember he stopped me goes he's gary and i use that term loosely he goes gary he said we usually we don't typically take cash and i went after what i just told you you would take a check from me. And he looked at me and he goes, I'll take the cash. And I count $1,500 in cash. He goes, do you need a receipt? Nope.

Like, what do I need a receipt for? You think I'm doing taxes? No, is there a moment when you're leaving where he's like, what do we call you? Oh, no. No, he's sticking with Gary. He's sticking with Gary. Listen, he's on very thin ice. He knows he's on thin ice.

So I walk out and I leave. Has he heard these podcasts? I have no idea. You've got to find this guy. I always wonder. I know that Scott Cugno knows. He knew me anyway. But there are people that say that they know Cugno has talked about hearing me talk about the crime.

And in fact, his wife actually, I know a guy that said he knows Scott Cugno's wife and has talked to her. And she said, oh, yeah, yeah. She said, not only that, she said Cox actually contacted me like a year or two. Because I did. I tried to contact. I found her on Facebook and said, look, I want to talk to Scott Cugno. Be an amazing podcast. It'd be a great podcast and like what happened so like literally

after this whole thing you have you understand that the that after i did the thing most of the checks were cashed in atlanta were to scott cugno because i had a real id so there's like three hundred thousand dollars four hundred thousand cat and checks cashed in his name. So when the Secret Service go to him and say, look, do you know this guy? And he goes, that's Matt Cox. And, you know, of course, there's been all kinds of articles. And they go, well, he just cashed $400,000 in checks using your driver's license. And, you know, a driver's license he got in your name. And he's like, you know, oh, wow, that sucks.

That's fucked up. that's fucked up that's fucked up so you know i'd love to know i he the one secret service told agents told me they said the funny thing about him was he said look i've worked with they go can you tell us anything about him he goes look i don't know where he is but i can tell you this kugno said he goes i've dealt with a lot of mortgage brokers. He goes, he's one of the most creative mortgage brokers I've ever met. He said, and I can tell you right now, he said, he's going to be hard to catch. He said, I mean, this guy's thorough.

And, you know, I, and honestly, I remember thinking it was really like, like a huge compliment. That's how, that's when you know, that's when you know. Am I really at heart a criminal? Yes. Yes. Alison Arnold, like when someone tells you – when they tell you in the newspaper you're a master criminal or a mastermind and you don't get insulted, you know you're a criminal at heart. Like most people say, he's a master con artist. People are offended. Disgusting. How could you say that?'s a master con artist. People are offended. Disgusting. I am not.

How could you say that? You don't, I'm gonna sue. Where me, I was like, nice, gotta write that quote down. Put that on the back of my book. Listen, one of my favorite quotes is from my judge. Oh no. Who said he's, and it's on the cover of my book. Oh, come on. And it, the

quote is, um, missed, wait, the complex, I and it's on the cover of my book oh come on and it the quote is um missed what the wait the complex i think it's the complexity and nefariousness of mr cox's frauds are breathtaking that's my federal judge like i mean you can't that's amazing i was like nice nice. You're like Gary Vee. Content. Yes. Okay, judge. I see you, dog. Content. So anyway, so yeah, that happens. I leave. And I remember Becky was like, we got to leave.

We got to leave. We got to leave. I said, no, what we have to do is satisfy all the loans on that property and borrow more. I said, we now know I can definitely, even if we get caught, we're good. I'm good. Even if I get caught, nobody good i'm good even if i get caught nobody's caught i think i can get out of it so you know that's how just that's the area more and more brazen so then of course now i've also borrowed 900 almost a million dollars on the other house i got i know in total it was 1.3 million dollars i'd borrowed at this point over how long in time

no i'm within a couple weeks. But they're in the – it's in the bank. That's a problem. So I'm going into the bank getting money out. By the way, you have to find that attorney. And you've got to get him on a podcast with you and Danny to just like relive this. Oh, my God. Could you imagine the blood that drained from him?

He must have just – he and the other guy, the looks on their faces. And today, I know you, if it were today's era, you would have said, hold on just a minute. Can you do that again? Oh, my God. With the camera. But anyway, you're talking about the loans, $1.3 million on this house you took out. Right. So I'm still pulling out money, pulling out money, pulling out money.

Becky wants to leave.'m saying nah so at one point out of all those loans when i got like five or six mortgages on the one house the bigger the 225 dollar house i felt like almost a million dollars in mortgages on the house um i had applied for a loan with bb and Bank. I don't know if they're still around. But BB&T Bank. I think so, yeah. So BB&T Bank and the woman, the loan officer went on vacation like the day after and never ordered title. So after I'd closed all these other ones,

she calls me up like the day after and says, hey, just want to let you know I ordered your title, everything. We should be closing in about a week. And I'm like, no, no, no. I said, I've already closed with my bank. And she goes, oh, OK.

Well, oh, I didn't realize you were in a hurry. I said, yeah, like I said, I was like, yeah. And and I go, you know, go ahead and cancel that title, that title policy or that title search. And she goes, oh, it's fine. It's not a big deal. So I don't want to get charged for it. She's no, no, nobody's going to charge you. It's fine. I said, well, I don't want to get charged for it. She goes, no, no, nobody's going to charge you.

It's fine. I said, I really don't want anybody to have to go and do extra work. Like, don't send somebody down there. And she goes, oh, it's not a big deal. And I said, okay. So I hang up the phone. I kind of was like, I don't know if they catch me. If they catch it, it'll be fine.

So I keep going into the banks. Well, what happened was when she got the abstractor, went down and searched the title, she saw three different mortgages had shown up. So, she then called BB&T. BB&T said, oh my god, this is fraud. BB&T then called the first mortgage holder, one of the first mortgage holders, which the biggest bank out of all of them was Wachovia. So she calls Wachovia and their fraud department looks into it and they come back and they lead this investigation. So they contact the authorities and they put, they check, they call all the inquiries that had shown up on like my check systems, right? All the different banks and all the different mortgage companies. And they start, they put a red, and they put a notice out to have me arrested. So I don't know any of this is happening.

I'm still cashing, going in and removing money. I walk into Wachovia one day with my Gary Sullivan ID. I walk in, put the ID on the counter. The woman looks at me and says, hold on a minute. She walks in the back. She always does this. Anytime you ordered over like $3,000 and the account was only, was less than 90 days old, they had to call. She hit the bell. Yeah. She went in the back. She calls. The two deputies walk in behind me two minutes later and walk up behind me and grab me, and slap handcuffs on me. They grab my ID.

They walk me into the manager's office. They don't close the bank. And they said, you're being detained. So they just walk me in and close the door. Now, did you do the incredulous, for what? I mean, I don't usually get too indignant. I did do the, what's going on, bro? What's going on?

What the hell? Like, I'm the normal golly gee whiz. You know, I'm like, golly gee whiz. You know, what's going on? Bro, what's going on? What the hell? I'm the normal golly gee whiz. I'm like, golly gee whiz, what's going on? Oh my gosh. I don't say golly gee whiz. It's my routine. That was my next question. I don't actually say that, but I'm like, oh my gosh, officer. So they go, look, you're being detained.

We're waiting for the detective. I said, okay, no problem. You didn't ask for what? Yeah, I did. I said, for what? They said, all I know is you're being detained. Okay. We're waiting for the detective. And when they said detective, I remember thinking, because I knew I was on the Secret Service's most wanted list, and I knew that the FBI was looking for me.

I thought, for some reason, I thought the FBI, like, I didn't know the difference between a detective and an agent and an investigator. Like I think the FBI is coming or the Secret Service. They said the investigator or the detective is on his way down. I was like, oh, okay. Or he might have said investigator. So I'm thinking FBI is coming. And then this guy walks in and he looks like FBI. And he walks in and probably in his, I want to say early 30s, mid 30s, maybe, I don't know.

So he walks in and I'm handcuffed and he looks at me and he goes, hi, Mr. Sullivan. My name is, you know, whatever, let's say Brad. My name's Brad. And he says, I'm a detective with the sheriff's office. And he goes, I said, what's going on? And he goes, well, you know, we have, Wachovia wants us to detain you. They want us to have you arrested. They're saying that you're running some kind of a scam.

You have three mortgages on your house. Now, keep in mind, I've got like six. He said three. And so I now know – okay, they call three. And he goes, you have three mortgages on the house. And I looked at him and I go, is that illegal? And he looked at me and he goes, yeah, you know, I don't know. I don't know. But they seem to think it's illegal. And I remember thinking, I'm walking out of here. Oh, I'm walking out of here. He said, you're being detained until we determine if we're going to arrest you. I said, well, I feel like I'm under arrest.

And I show him my hands. And I said, do I have to be in these? Because I'm literally thinking like if I get an opportunity, I'll just fucking run. And I go, do I have to be in these? And he's like, oh, no, no, no. You can take these off. So they take them off. Now I've talked my way out of the handcuffs.

They unhandcuff me. And so he calls the head of the fraud department for Wachovia. So Wachovia's guy, you know, fraud guy calls up and fraud guy's like, look, man, he's running a shotgunning scheme. He closed on these loans so fast we couldn't catch it. He got three different first mortgages. And he goes, he says you have three different first mortgages. I said, that's not true. I go, I have a first mortgage, I have a second mortgage

and I have a third mortgage and I have a HELOC. And he goes, well, why did he take, he goes, that's not true. That's not, now he only knows that, but the actual mortgages don't say they're first, second, or third. The placement is what makes them a first, second, or third. And what does that mean?

Which one gets recorded, that's in first mortgage. Oh, it's literally just order. Yes. And I said, no, I've read those things. Neither one, they didn't say first, second, third. They didn't say anything. They didn't say all first mortgages. Those are first and a second and a third.

He's like, well, yeah, he's like, that's not true. He's like, okay, well, that's what he's saying. He's like, well, and then he says, why is he taking all the money out in cash? And he says, why are you taking all the money in cash? And I went, I'm taking it out in cash because I work for a construction company. And I said, it's a labor. I said, we provide labor for construction companies.

We cut these guys' checks. Most of them are like Mexicans. They don't have bank accounts. So I know the checks are good, so I cash the checks because otherwise they're going to pay like 10% at a check cashing company. I said, but I know the checks are good, so I just cash it. I said, I mean, I feel bad for these guys. And you're just sitting in the back room of a bank right now with just the detective. No, the detective, the two deputies, and it's all glass.

Everybody in the bank is staring at me. I literally am like in a fishbowl. People are standing there in line waiting, and they're just staring at us. And I'm sitting there. This is when you're at your best. Oh. Lights and camera in action on you. Listen, blood flowing with endorphins

um the adrenaline's pumping and yet i'm perfectly calm are you were you ever calm were you ever like afraid that you were accidentally gonna in the middle of anything say the wrong name because you have so many different names that have floated around that aren't yours. I mean, no. As much as I talk, when things get really bad, I answer very directly. I don't provide a ton of information. Yeah. So he says, you know, think about it. I'm answering questions. You know, why do you do this?

Here's my canned response. Boom. Why do you do this? Because I think I'm one of these guys that has arguments in their head all the time. Yeah. You know, like my girlfriend can never win an argument. Yeah, you were saying that last time. Yeah.

It's just not possible. So I've already had this argument. If I'm questioned, here's what I say. Here I, this, this. What do I need to back up that? Okay, I need this. I need this. I need this.

Keep, go ahead and make those documents. Spend the day. I don't have anything else to do. So he says this. He says that. I said that. The fraud guy is like, Hey, what about this? I answer that question.

What about this? I answer that question. What about this? I answer that question. Then he says, um, uh, I mean, he's frustrated. Like you can't believe. So he says, why? Uh, he's, and I said, no, he said, well, why, why didn't you go to borrow all the money

from one bank? Cause you said, I, I, he said, well, I don't understand what happened. I said, came to Wachovia. I told my needed half a million dollars. I was going to start buying houses. And the detective says, yeah, I see that you own another house here. I go, exactly. I said, I'm buying houses. I'm renovating the houses and I'm selling them. I said, that's why I came here. I used to live in, in, uh, like in Atlanta. And I, and I said, I flipped houses there. I'm flipping them here. I said, but I also work for a labor company. And he goes, okay. And he said, so I tried to buy her half a million

dollars. I came to Wachovia. The loan officer said, I can't get you half a million. I can get you about 180,000. Then she said, I have a friend though that can get you a second mortgage, probably for about the same amount. I said, I went to that other person. I said, I have a friend, though, that can get you a second mortgage probably for about the same amount. I said, I went to that other person. I said, and I went, shoot, I forget the name of that bank. And he says, like he ends up saying, like, SunTrust. And I go, SunTrust? Fuck yeah.

And I said, she said, I can only get you so much. He goes, why couldn't they get you more? I said, honestly, bro, I don't know what underwriting guidelines are. But they said I can only allow you to borrow through Fannie Mae, like, X amount, X amount, like 150 or $180,000. That was the max they could let me have. I said, I don't know why. I said, but that's what they said. I said, then, and Wachovia guys, he's listening. I said, then she said, I can only get you this much, but I have a buddy, I have a friend that does HELOCs at this bank, like whatever, Fieldstone, whatever. And I said, they got me a HELOC, a home equity line of credit. And the guy's like, oh, okay. And they said it was like a big credit card on my, and he goes, yeah, yeah, it's a HELOC.

Yeah, I understand. You can borrow what you need. I said, yeah, right, exactly. I said, so they scheduled the closings and I closed. Is Becky calling you during all this? Becky, my phone is in the car because it's in another name. Oh, she's freaking out. The other phone is in Michael Eckert's name, remember?

By this point, by the way, it's not Michael Eckert anymore because by this point, I actually legally had his name changed to Michael Johnson. Oh, my God. I forgot about that. I actually got a driver's license i mean i'm in the process listen it's a i'm i'm playing with it you know i'm saying i'm playing with it hey hey you're a pro when you're in the game you're play yeah um whatever happened whatever happened with this so i mean legally went to the court and had it changed paid like 1500 bucks did the whole thing oh god so i just want to see what would happen could i get could i get the license could i get the social name like what's the process

but now i know you know experimentation yeah and someday maybe he'll figure it out and go what the hell what do you mean so what ends up happening is I, so I'm arguing, I'm sitting there going back and forth, going back and forth. And so this guy's screaming and hollering. And I say, listen, I said, listen, man, I said, I'm not running a scam. I don't know what this guy's talking about. And in the middle of it, he says, our loan officer hasn't done anything wrong. And I go, bro, honestly, I said, I think they have a problem with the bank. I said, think about it. What makes more sense? And I pull out, I have a bunch of business cards, my business card that says, labor on demand, Gary Sullivan, site manager, has a phone number, everything. And I go,

what makes more sense? And I pull out my business card business card i go a guy that works for a labor company figured out how to steal half a million dollars from a bunch of national banks or some loan officers at the bank decided to get together and figure out how to lend me that money so they could make um so they could make a fee and he, he sat there for a second and he goes into the phone. He goes, yeah, I think you have a problem at the bank. This fucking guy goes nuts. Then he said, it's a fraud. He goes, his ID, his South Carolina ID starts with 000. And this guy's in California.

And he goes, 000, zero, zero. It's a fake ID. And the detective says, listen, I ran this guy through APHIS. Sorry, through not APHIS, through. That's the fingerprint place. Yeah, yeah, through whatever, the NCIC. He goes, I ran this guy through NCIC. And he said, said he's gary

sullivan and now at this point the detective's like on your side like absolutely he's totally with me now he's literally like like i know gary and so and and he said he is in our state ids he goes start with zero zero zero he said this is gary sullivan and i look at him because i can't really hear what the guy's saying i can hear a little little bit. And I look at him and I go, oh, now I'm not Gary Sullivan. I go, bro, what are we doing here? And he goes, I know, Gary. I know. It's just a little bit longer. So he's saying a little bit longer. I'm thinking I'm leaving. So anyway, he says, look, I don't even know what to charge this guy with. I'm waiting for the district attorney to call me back. I don't – I'm not – you haven't filed an official complaint yet. This is just a notice.

He said so – or whatever. He said, so I'm going to have him follow me back to the police station, fill out a police report, talk to the district attorney, see what's going on, and then I'll let you know. And he hangs up the phone. He says, Gary, can you follow me back to the police station? He says, absolutely. Of course. Let's get some dunking on the way with you i'm with you you and me brad or whatever his name is so when you're walking out there like are you passing becky like no no becky becky hasn't isn't here becky's just been calling my phone my phone's in the car but she wasn't waiting in the car oh she's she's not there. By this point, the scam's wrapping up.

But she's already relocated. She's not even in South Carolina now. I'm sorry, in North Carolina. She's relocated to Houston, Texas. Oh, that worked out well. Yeah. Okay. Because she was going to kind of rent a place so that when we got the $1.3 million, really

it was going to be $1.5. I just was still borrowing. Once I got that money, we were just going to relocate. So she's already gone. And she has all the money, by the way. Like she took all the cash. So we're about to abandon. We've already, we're about to abandon basically our Charlotte location.

I'm in Columbia. So I'm sitting there and I get up and I get up. And as I'm getting up, he says, you follow me to the police station. I go, sure, no problem. And he says, by the way, he said, whose car are you driving? He said, the Infinity, right? And I went, and the Infinity was in the name Michael Eckert. And I go, oh, that's my boss's car. And he goes, oh, okay, you don't have a car? I went, well, no. I said, not yet. I have to get my license. I just got my ID. I said, I have a, I said, do you have a valid driver's license? I go, yeah, it's in Nevada.

And he goes, oh, he goes, he goes, that's right. He said, you're from, he goes, you're from Las Vegas. And he glances at the two detectives and they all kind of glance and grin at each other. And I realize he ran me through NCIC. He knows I've been arrested for prostitution several times he thinks I'm a male prostitute at one point and I remember they all

you didn't hit him with the line no they all glance at me and they all glance at me and I just remember out of all of this that's the most embarrassing part of the whole thing out of all this that part that's the most embarrassing part of the whole thing. Out of all this, that part, and I literally think, fuck. You didn't start giving them the eyebrows?

These guys think that I was in Vegas a few years ago blowing cops for 20 bucks a piece. It's almost worth saying, listen, but I got to tell you something. I'm not Gary. I sat there. This is my hill. I'll die on this one. Yeah. So he says, but you have. I'm not curious. I did. I sat there. This is my hill. I'll die on this one. Yeah. So he says, do you have, but you have a valid driver's license.

And I go, yeah, I'm pretty sure. Yeah. I mean, it should be. And so he, the detect, I mean, the, the deputy says, grabs the license and says, I'll check it out and goes into his car. He then goes in his car, pulls it up, comes back, and walks in and he goes, yeah, he's got a valid driver's license. And I thought, fuck, that homeless

guy's got a valid driver's license? And I was like, oh my god! And so he says, yeah, it's valid. And he hands it to him and he says, okay, he says, it's all good? And he goes, yeah, well, it says he's 5'11", and I'm 5'6", you know.

And they all look at me, and I go, fellas, with a good pair of shoes? And they all go, follow us, Gary. So I follow them. I get in the car. As soon as I get in the car, I pick up the phone. There's like 40 fucking missed messages from Becky. I pick up the phone. There's like 40 fucking missed messages from Becky. I pick up the phone. I'm driving behind them.

I, boom. And as soon as I'm just seatbelt, get on. I put the seatbelt on. I start following them. There's a cop behind me, a cop in front of me. Oh, they didn't even put you in the same car. No, I'm taking my own car. I'm driving my boss's car.

Remember? So I'm driving. And as I'm driving, the phone rings. And before I can even call her back. And I pick up the phone. She goes, oh, my God, what's going on? What's going on? I said, listen, I'm driving, the phone rings, and before I can even call her back, and I pick up the phone, she goes, oh, my God, what's going on? I said, listen, I just got to, I said, look, I, and before I could say anything, she goes, oh, my God, your number, another article came out, you're number one on the Secret Service's

most wanted list. You don't understand, they have our pictures, they have our pictures everywhere, the Secret Service is sending out flyers, it's a huge deal, you don't understand, this is a way bigger thing. I go, look, I got bigger fucking problems. look i got bigger problems shut the up becky she's like what what i go i was just detained in the bank i was handcuffed i talked my i said handcuffs i'm now following these guys back to the police station and fill out a police report she goes oh my god get on the interstate leave leave leave i said no i can't do that there's a cop behind me cop in front of me and i said so they did put someone behind you oh there's a yeah like there's

an escort absolutely yeah i'm being escorted yeah you're fucking president today so i'm driving and she says um she says um i said i can't do it and she goes you get on the interstate good i said no i can't do it i can't do it there's no i'm like an hour on a helicopter i'm like an hour on the the radio and um i i said look um and she she ends up saying um i i said look i i just talked myself out of hand the pair the handcuffs i've got this i'm gonna get out of this and she goes oh my god i'm freaking out i'm freaking out i said listen the worst that will happen like this guy 100 believes i'm gary sullivan he's already around, listen, the worst that will happen like this guy 100% believes I'm Gary Sullivan. He's already around me. I go, the worst that happens is I get arrested. You get an attorney. She goes,

I'm not getting you an attorney. I'm not getting you out on bond. I'm not risking everything I've got to save your ass. I'm sorry. You get on the interstate or you can forget it. Come on. I don't even know where she lives.

Wow. She relocated like a week earlier. And it's all your handiwork that got it. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, so I was like, holy shit. By this point, I'm pulling in. Stop.

I put the phone down, drop the phone, get up, and leave and get out. Detective's there. The deputy's gone. I walk inside. I fill out the police report with him. He says, Gary, I have to have my lieutenant sign off on this. Can you wait for me in the hallway? I said, sure, no problem. So I go in the hallway. I'm standing in the hallway. And just like you have these pictures up on the wall, there were a bunch of black and white photographs of wanted posters on the wall in the hallway. There was one that was in color.

So I'm looking around. There's like, oh, this guy steals bicycles. This is a jewel thief. This guy's a burglar. This guy's wanted for rape, murder, child molester. This guy's a fraudster. This guy's wanted for murder. Holy shit, fraudster.

Hold on. Wait. And then my Secret Service's most most wanted poster the one that you pulled up earlier and only one that's in color is on the wall i'll put it in the corner again for people and i was just like holy still hadn't put this together guy walks up had you gotten the hair transplant everything now oh yeah by this point no by this point i've done all this okay so you what else did you get? Oh no, listen, I literally got, I got stopped by, during this whole process as Gary Sullivan,

again, Gary Sullivan was, a lot of stuff happened as Gary Sullivan. Yeah, tough life. I literally, literally got, I had a one person walk in, see me, I was at a closing, the lawyer walks in, says, hey, Mr. Sullivan, I need you to sign this, sign here. And as I'm starting to sign, he stops and he said – he looked at me and he goes, can you hold on a second? I went, yeah. He grabbed the – I remember he grabbed the file and walked off, which is weird because the documents are mine. And so he leaves.

And I have every right to look at the documents. There's no reason to take that. It was odd. I go, yeah, sure. I'm not in a hurry. He leaves. He went to the – I later found – this is when I was being talked – when I was being interviewed by the Secret Service. They told me he walked into a back room.

He had a copy of my wanted poster in the break room. He looked at it, and he said, huh, this guy's wanted out of Atlanta. But and he opened up my file and he looked at my application and it said that I had worked for the same company for like four years or something in Tampa. And it just moved to to South Carolina, to Columbia. And he looked at and he thought he looks similar, but it can't be the same guy because this guy is from Tampa, and that guy is wanted out of Atlanta. Can't be the same guy. Closes a file, walks back in, opens it up, says, I'm sorry, Gary. Go ahead and sign here, sign here, sign here. And I walked out with a check for $180,000.

Holy shit. So I didn't know that at all. I'm just putting this together again now. This happened earlier too with another instance of like what you were wanted for specifically. But when that picture was on the wall, it was John Doe. The picture on the wall in his back room, I don't know whether it was or not. Because you were wanted for the Atlanta crimes and that was the guy. But they had him put that together with the Tampa Matt Cox who was previous to that?

That may have been what it was too. But either way, it was still my picture. Like he should have – I mean, I looked different. Look, you saw that picture. I looked like a scoundrel there. At this point, I'm clean shaven. I've got the hair transplants. My hair is slicked back.

I'm tan. I had a nose job. I had a facelift. I had my teeth done, whitened. I've lost weight. I'm working out all the time. I look very vastly different. You took this to heart. Absolutely. Yeah. I went all in on the con man thing. So anyway, so what happened is I now go, I'm in the police station. And as I see my wanted poster, the cop walks up. He doesn't look at the posters.

And he says, he says, scary. He said, I'm all good. Talk to my lieutenant. They signed off. You're right next to the fucking posters. Right there. And I said, and I looked at him. I said, oh, okay. I said, he said, you ready to go?

I said, absolutely. I'm ready to go. In fact, if I don't go now, I feel like I'm never going to leave. We go, we get in the elevator. He walks me out. He has to walk me out. I always have people that say, why didn't you run? Then you've never been in a police station.

You're getting buzzed in. There's multiple doors. There's sally ports. And then you have to get buzzed out. Like you can't walk in and out of a police station. If I had run, there's two or three doors that are going to lock me in. And I'm also on the second floor. You're done.

I've got to get in the elevator. He has to do something with his card. I get down. I get through a couple things. He walks me outside. He says, listen, I talked on the second floor. You're done. I got to get in the elevator. He has to do something with his card. I get down. I get through a couple things. He walks me outside. He says, listen, I talked to the district attorney. She's looking into it. She said there may be some issues here.

She said, do me a favor. Just don't leave town, okay? And I said, my God, Brad, where am I going to go? I own two houses here. I get in my car. As soon as I get in my car, Becky calls. And she's like you know phone rings

and I go and of course you know me being extremely tolerant of her at this point I go you fucking bitch you were gonna

you were gonna leave me I wasn't gonna leave you I'm packing a bag you don't know where she is yet though huh you need to find out where she is you said you didn't know no I'm screaming

I'm furious look what I do know is I'm screaming. I'm furious. Look, what I do know is I do have like a few thousand dollars. I'd gone to a couple banks already. Keep in mind, I then – she goes, oh, my God, get on the interstate. I said, look. I said, they let me go, whatever. She goes, okay.

And she goes, you got to go back to Charlotte. You got to go. I said, I am. I am. So I got to go buy a couple more banks first. I go buy two more banks. I get more money. I go into another bank. And these two people almost bang into each other trying to get the telephone.

And I realize, okay, this is one of the banks. They obviously, they're looking for me too. So I go get my car. They follow me outside. Like people run outside to look at my tag and stuff, you know. Because they don't know I've been arrested or I've been grabbed and questioned. So then I get on the interstate. I drive all the way to Charlotte.

Becky gets me a couple of movers to come move all my stuff, put it into it. And keep in mind, we only have at this point, we've got five or $600,000. That's all we've got. We didn't get the 1.3 plus the 400,000. We didn't get all of it. So I go to Charlotte the next morning, these movers show up, they pack me up. I get, I'm in like a U-Haul or a Ryder truck, get in the truck, start headed to Houston, go all the way to Houston. You know, it's funny. Like there are so many ridiculous things. Like I didn't mention that. So, you know, I'm an artist. Fine arts degree. Fine arts degree. I have a degree in fine arts. So one of the things that happened was when I told you we were kind of

vacationing, like one, we went to Disney for aney for a week like you know all the stupid things like you're doing because you know fraud is not a full-time job so one of the things we went to um or new orleans and we went on a bunch of ghost tours so when we go on new orleans new orleans we're there we're going to ghost tours it just just so happens that the U.S. that there is an artist by the name of Matthew Cox who was having an exhibit. We stayed on

Royale Street. There is a on Bourbon Street or one of the streets right next to it. There is a gallery that was having like a month long exhibit by Matthew Cox. Come on. The U.S. Marshals fly some – well, I don't know if they flew in.

But they go to New Orleans. They go to that there with my wanted poster. They show the owner my wanted poster, and they go, is this Matt Cox who has an art exhibit? And the guy says, I've known Matt Cox five or six years. That's not him. It's Matt Cox, but that's not the picture of the guy that's here. They say, okay. They never even talked to the guy says i've known matt cox five or six years that's not him it's matt cox but that's not the picture of the guy that's here they say okay they never even talked to the guy

i found that out when i ordered the freedom of information oh way later way later while i'm in prison i find out i have the dates i have it right there yes and i was there the exact same time becky and i were there now we stayed on royale street in a hotel. They were a block or two away. That's where it was. And they were there at the same time, and then they left. Now, I like to think we passed each other on the street. I like to think that I was standing behind them getting a hot dog or something at a street vendor. I don't know that.

In my mind, I like to see it. It's like a cat and mouse. I like to believe that. I don't know that happened. I don't know. Whatever. I was ever too close to them. But it was amazing. There's those little things that you're like, holy shit. I had

no idea. At the time, I was just clueless. Anyway, I'm in my Ryder truck. I drive all the way to Houston. I meet Becky. So I meet Becky. So I meet Becky. And she's super happy. Like, by this point, you have to understand, by this point, she's – I've – one, when we were in Charlotte – I'm not even telling this well, but it's so much better in the book because it's chronological in the book.

And what's the name of your book again? That wasn't a plug, but I will plug it. Plug it, baby. It was Shark in the book and what's the name of your book again um that wasn't a plug but i will plug it um plug it baby it was a i mean it's shark in the housing pool um available on amazon it is available on your books yeah and i actually have it's on audible and everything um listen it's a great it's a great story so it's so funny because like i literally really understood the story when i was locked up more so than i did when I was like getting the Freedom of Information Act and reading. Like when it's happening, I don't know any of this stuff's happening. Yeah, because you're on the run. Yeah, I'm just.

You're trying to survive. Right. So but one of the things like Becky, because she was so just insane, we would get into screaming matches. And I don't mean like me just being like, calm down, calm down. Fuck you. Don't tell me to calm down. Like I literally made her get her own apartment. Oh yeah. At one point I said, I'm done. I'm done. Like, because she screamed so much in the middle of the night, she was screaming and hollering and yelling that the cops came. This happened a couple of times. And I knew

the cops show up and people are screaming. Somebody's going to jail. So as soon as she starts screaming, I like grabbed the bag, threw some stuff in the bag, and then left and went and jumped in my car and left. And my whole thing is, like, I'm immediately headed towards, like, Columbia. Because I'm thinking I'm going to go straight there, pull out as much money as I can in a day or two, and then I'm just leaving. But then on my way, she would start calling and calling and calling and calling and then after like 30 phone calls you know i would pick up the phone and she's like i'm sorry i'm sorry and please don't leave me and she would scream and holler and everything keep mine at night i'm not leaving her like i'm not leaving her with nothing like i leave the money she's got the

money right like i'm leaving with maybe 20 grand or something and i'm willing to go get another 20 grand and just start over i'd rather start over but i'm literally one time i was on the phone with her when the cop showed up oh no and you could hear boom boom boom and she's like oh my god somebody's here hold on i don't know who this is hold on i know who it is it's 2 30 in the morning it's the police the police answered the door and they're like hey john there for the gang bang actually we got a phone call we got a phone call About a woman screaming That she was being choked I've never choked her

The chick was just insane You know how to pick them Yeah Real quick I gotta go to the bathroom so bad We'll be right back I know if you get started on a story It's gonna go all the way

Alright and we're back Thank you I's going to go all the way. So just give me one sec. All right. And we're back. Thank you. I really had to go. But you were saying – I mean I already have issues with her. I mean it's been a nightmare the whole time.

So she – and like I said, her own apartment, it didn't matter. She would still – she had a key to my apartment. She'd still show up at my apartment at 3 o'clock in theclock in the morning, you know, wanting to come and stay the night. And I'm like, no, no. And it would become, oh, I'm so disgusting. You can't sleep with me. It was just like, oh, Jesus. I mean, it was like, stop.

I'd like, like, no, you just don't turn off. Yeah. What, what, what, what mental conversations are you having in your head that I'm not a part of that I'm being blamed for? So anyway, I jump in the rider truck go all the way to houston when i get to houston i get there she hires a couple she's got a couple of day laborers to help unload all my stuff we put i put it in a you storage place um we then go back to her place and uh as we were we were going, and then I remember we were driving around.

This is all with, like, I literally wasn't even there 24 hours. I get there that night. The next morning we unload the truck. And you think you're good from that thing and you're now free and clear of that South Carolina thing? Are you changing your identity again? Oh, I'm changing my identity. I'm planning on it, but I can't really change my identity at this point because i i just put all my all of my stuff in the used storage

place like it was like i was like hey i need to get my stuff she's like no it's fine we have a key just leave it there let's say i was like okay that's true maybe not have it in the apartment whatever you know no big deal so we're driving around that general area she picked a really nice place where she was staying and so we're driving around the area and i at one point i make her i say hey pull over pull over because i had seen in front of the house in front of this house there was a for sale sign it was like a townhouse or something and it was right next to her place you know a couple blocks couple blocks away. And it was a townhouse. And they had those, you know, those little tubes that have like a flyer inside connected to the for sale sign that sit in the front yard. So she stops. She's, whoa,

whoa, whoa, what, what, what? And I jump out. I run over. I grab one. I come back and she goes, what are you doing? And I said, you know, I need to. So, by the way, she was on Zoloft. At this point, I had sent her to a psychiatrist. Hit pause on whatever you're listening to and hit play on your next adventure. Stay three nights this summer at Best Western and get $50 off a future stay. Life's a trip. Make the most of it at Best Western. Visit BestWestern.com for complete terms and conditions.

That had said she was bipolar and put her on Zoloft. And she'd take it for three or four months and then she'd get off it. She'd say, I don't need it anymore. And then she'd be okay for a week. She'd hold it together and then she'd flip out again and I'd say, you have to start taking it again. She'd say, I don't like the way it makes me feel. I'd say, it's the only thing keeping you sane. So it's the only thing keeping us together.

She'd take it again for a few more months. She then decides for some reason she was all better. She stopped taking it. So I haven't been around in a week or so. So I get the flyer out of the tube. I look at the thing, and she goes, what are you doing? And I go, I'm just looking at houses. I'm looking at the area.

And she goes, you're not going to run a scam here. She goes, I want to stay here. I like it here. And she goes, you're not going to run a scam here. She goes, I want to stay here. I like it here. And she goes, you can run a scam somewhere else. And I looked at her and I went, well, no, but I'm not going to run a scam. I know she wants to stay someplace. I said, I get that. But I said, I can't stay with you.

I have to find a place. And she goes, oh, oh, I'm just so disgusting. You're so disgusted by me that you can't spend even a night. You're like, God damn it. Listen, she went into this full blown tirade and I just, and the more she turned bright red, like she's a ginger in general. You know, she's got white, white-ish red hair. She's very light skin.

She's got kind-ish red hair. She's very light-skinned. She's got kind of like pink. She reminded me of pink. And she just turns bright red, and she's screaming. And all I could think of was, she's off her meds. So it was a mistake to say, but I said, did you – as calmly as I can say, I said, are you taking yours, Olaf? Fuck that shit. I'm not taking it anymore. I don't give a fuck.

And I just thought, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Like we're people on the sidewalk are looking. Yeah. We drive back to her place. Now she's completely set up as somebody else now. I think she was Rebecca Hic hickey she actually found a girl by the name of rebecca so her name was so she got to keep the same thing yeah she went and she was going by uh by becca um and so we get back to her place i remember she was fucking fuming

and i'm and i'm in the all i can think of is just get away from her like at this point bro so many things have gone wrong split up the money leave i get in the elevator with her we're going up and i remember this chick on the elevator that looked amazing looked like a top-end stripper or something and i'm you don't ever be you're with your girlfriend and there's a girl standing next to you and you're like don't don't look don't look don't look don't look look away don't even glance in that direction. And Becky's staring at me, waiting for me to look. And the girl's oblivious to what's happening. And then we get to our floor, like the 12th floor, 18th floor or something.

And the door's open. And I bolt off the fucking elevator. And as soon as Becky took like two steps off the elevator, I remember she goes, I bet you just love to fuck that skank. And she said, when she said skank, the girl, I could hear the girl in the elevator go, hey. And the door closes.

And I remember thinking, she's probably a very nice girl. Take me to prison. I'm done with this. I go in, listen, I go into the house, and I say, and I don't know where the house,

I don't even know where the money is. And so I pull out like, whatever it was, 15 or 20 grand, whatever I have. And I pull, and I don't know where the, I don't even know where the money is. And so I pull out like whatever it was, 15 or 20 grand, whatever I have. And I pull out the money and I said, here, I said, here's what I got out of the banks. You know, after I got let up here, I give her the money and she just looks at me and she can see kind of like, he doesn't want to argue. He's not going to argue with me. He's not going to like, huh. And she just kind of shrugs it up to a win and she goes i turn around i you know get some i'm getting something out of the fridge like i'm i'm not

even i'm just ignoring her and she walks off into the bedroom with the money and i of course run and tiptoe behind her and peek around the corner and i see her stick the money in a shoe box like a prada shoe box puts it in there turns around i. I walk back. Like she walks out of the, out of the, out of like the, the bedroom and I'm standing right there. She's like, huh? And I'm like, I think we should split up the money. And she's like, what? I go, I think we should split up the money. Let's split the money and just part ways. This isn't working. And she goes, no. And I went, yeah. She goes, I mean, you can leave if you want but you're not leaving with the money and i went well i'm not leaving with nothing and i said so let's split it up

and she goes no i i'm i'm keeping the money and i'm like you're not keeping all the money that i defrauded the banks out of without your help that was my hard yeah that was my exactly those are the fruits of my labor so we get into an argument and she has a valid point she's like look you can go on and you'll get a million dollars in a few months I can't I have to live off this money so we start arguing back and forth and I said um, look, you don't even know where the fucking money is. And I said, it's in that fucking Prada shoebox. And she was like, oh, shit. I said, so we're splitting it up or I'll take all of it and leave.

And it was like $600,000 or something. All in a shoebox? Yeah, in a shoebox. Yeah. That doesn't fit in a shoebox. In hundreds? In 50s and hundreds? Absolutely.

Well, a million dollars in hundreds is 22 pounds. You can get that? You can get, so, like, 13 pounds in a shoebox? Look, okay, I don't know exactly how much was. I mean, I think it was all in a shoebox, but I know, and I'll explain what happened, is we start arguing, and I said, yeah, I'll take all of it. Actually, it was like half a million. It was actually more than half. It was like five, six hundred thousand in the shoebox.

And I said, I'm taking the money. I said, I'll take all that money. And she goes, and do what? She said, she goes, and do what? She said, and do what? She goes, and do what? Get away in that

Ryder truck that the cops are going to be looking for? Now, keep in mind, I don't have an ID. Like, the only ID I have now, I have a vehicle that I know the... You got rid of the IDs? No, no. Like Gary? They're in all...

They're dead named now. I have new... Keep in mind, I've got several IDs I haven't used. So you do have IDs. In the U-Haul. I mean, in the U-Storage, which she's not going to let me get. So you're not getting your IDs. Because she has the keys.

Right. So you're not getting the IDs. Like, look, there's a punch code, pin code to get into the, for the gate to open. There's another one to get into the office. There's another one to open the door. Like, i'm not getting in there without her cooperation we're arguing over money and she's like look what are you gonna do you're gonna grab the half a million and jump in your rider truck she is which they're gonna be looking for in a name that they're also looking for like i only had like my gary sullivan we know they're looking for that and then i have my i have

a michael eckert id right we know they're looking for that. And then I have my I have a Michael Eckert ID. Right. We know they're looking for Michael Eckert because they know what kind of car I was driving. So they know where that car is, too. By this point, I know they've already tracked, probably tracked it back to South Carolina. So I'm arguing with her and I'm like, look, I want all the money. And I remember I said, she said, you know, they'll be looking for that. I said, listen, I did.

I said, was fucking six hundred thousand dollars i said i don't need that fucking rider truck you know i'll figure it out with that much money and she was like so we start going back forth back forth and i said look i go okay what do you think's fair and she has ten thousand dollars and i go ten are you out of your fucking mind it's a, $10,000. I just gave you $20,000. And I looked at her. I said, no. And so I said, let me explain something. I said, you're going to come up with a reasonable figure, or I'm going to go in there, and I'm going to take every fucking dime you've got.

Do you understand? I said, and I'll just figure it out. I said, I don't give a fuck. And she went, and I said, one, two, three. I said, I'm counting to 10. I got to like nine, eight or nine or something. And she went, and she was $100,000. And I go, one, two, three. I'm counting to ten. I got to like nine, eight or nine or something. And she went. And she was $100,000.

And I go, wrap it up. You let her keep another 500 grand. The more I think about it, it was four or 500,000. Like it was five or 600. I don't know the exact amount because I wasn't keeping track of the money. But let's say it's half a million to 600,000. So she keeps half a million dollars roughly. Keep in mind, she's got a vehicle that's 000 so she keeps half a million dollars roughly keep in mind

she's got a vehicle that's paid for yeah um all of her furniture's paid for any of it no bills half a million dollars that's a good deal for that's it you're not getting that in divorce court right yeah so she comes she grabs the box she walks out she counts out a hundred thousand dollars okay so that's what i'm saying i don't know how much was in the box i thought the whole thing was because i remember thinking one time that i had like a hundred thousand dollars one time and it was tiny i was like that's nothing like it wasn't a lot of money like it wasn't huge like you ever see guys like they got like a million dollars and it's in a massive duffel bag and i'm like that's not true yeah i've trouble pick like i can i know the poundage but i have trouble picturing you know when you see it, you see it fast in movies and stuff or in drug busts when they take a picture.

But you don't know – it's not like you know like, oh, there's 2,000,000.51 in there. You know what I mean? Like you don't – there's none of that. So anyway, she cuts the box. She comes out. She counts out $100,000. And she had it wrapped like she had numbers like 5,000. And I remember this is what's so fucked up.

I didn't count it i watched her counting it like two like uh five thousand five thousand two thousand three thousand fifteen thousand and she counted she shortened me a couple grand like i didn't even know it until i till later when i got all my money out and counted it and i had like 98 000 i was like that like even in the end well she, she charged you $2,000 for the negotiation. Yeah. So yeah, for counting it. So anyway, she goes, there's $100,000. Scoop, grab it, throw it in the fucking bag, throw a couple things in. And I grabbed my phone.

And when I was walking out, I'd always made the mistake whenever I tried to leave her before, she'd always called my phone over and over again and convinced me to come back. This time I walk out and I put my phone on the counter. By this point, she'd gone into the bedroom. She was like, there, take it. She walks off. I'm packing my stuff. I put my phone on the counter and I leave. I always wondered what happened an hour later when she decided she calmed down and she decided I'm gonna call him and the phone rang in the kitchen that's straight out of a movie like out of a week like within a week or two she had to really be desperate and really realize wow i'm i'm done like this guy isn't

coming back yeah that's like a straight what's the in heat where he's like you have to be willing to drop everything walk around the corner yeah yeah like walk away from everything within 30 seconds or less now you were happy to walk away from this one but still say less you know like being on the run like it's it's it's you know it it is it's like i don't want to say scary but it is scary to leave up and leave everything walk out the door right now and not be able to look back. That's kind of – that's spooky. And you're alone.

You've got nobody to call. You can't call anybody for money. You can't call anybody to say, hey, come bail me out. Like everybody you know is like, uh-uh. I'm not getting involved in this. What do you do? It's totally you. So I walk.

I get in the Ryder truck. I start driving. What year is this? 2005? Yeah. And that's the Ryder truck. I start driving. What year is this? 05? Yeah. And that's the last time you talked with her? No, no. I've talked to her since then when I got out of prison.

Right. But until you went to – Yeah. Okay. So I'm driving. And I'm driving. And I used to do this. I used to – every once in a while, if I was going somewhere that wasn't close to where i was like i would get a cell phone i stopped and get a burner phone and call

you know call home call about my son call my ex-wife call some people i know call my mom you were in contact very seldomly but it was this was maybe a dozen half a dozen times probably half a dozen times i called and because you had a burner you weren't worried about being traced right i'm buying a burner i talked to him i'd spend an hour on the phone and then i just throw the phone away like even if their phones were tapped or they could trace it like you got me in you know you've got me somewhere in texas driving you know i mean like what do you have he's on the interstate driving somewhere going from here to here he threw it away who knows so you would do it in an advantageous time and place right like when we were about to leave nat um uh las vegas you know i would we'd get a couple

burners and i'd call some people throw it away and then we just fly out or we jump on get in our car and just drive away so they don't have any idea when on trips and stuff yeah you're at a you're stopped at the side of a road or at a 7-eleven or you know that somewhere where you there can't go back check the camera to see what kind of a car you're driving that sort of thing like i'm not stupid i'm not going to pull up in a bank parking lot where they're taking pictures of my my tag what would your family say to you though when you're on the phone with them because they know you're wanted yeah i mean if you're learning a family i would call my mom like i barely talk to my dad so you know he would always what the hell are you thinking i'm called to talk to mom not you you know so i talked to my

mom and she would say look you know i want to see you but i understand you're in a lot of trouble you don't want to turn yourself in i understand that i'm worried about you i'm like mom perfectly fine i have plenty of money. I'm safe. I'm perfectly fine. She said, I understand. I love you. You know, I would like to see you if you ever get a chance. I would like to see you.

Absolutely. I understand if that happens, which I didn't think it was ever going to. I wasn't going to go to Tampa, you know, really. Like I'd been to Tampa. Did you ever try to get her to you? But that's too risky, right? Not doing all that. Like, listen, my sister would turn me in.

Like everybody would turn me in. Like she would have to be like oh yeah i'm going my mom's not she can't keep like my mom's such an open book she wouldn't right she couldn't do anything surreptitiously you know what i'm saying she she couldn't there's no there's no um you know she's she's just no hiding anything there's no secretive about her she tells exactly what she thinks she and she's like i'm going to see yourself your brother oh don't tell anyone that There's just no hiding anything. There's no secretive about her. She tells exactly what she thinks. And she's like, oh, I'm going to see your brother. Oh, don't tell anyone that. Like, Jesus.

Like, you just told everybody. You just told my sister. You just told my brother. Like, so. Did you talk with your sister and brother on the phone? No. There's no reason to talk to them. I don't have a great relationship with them.

So, I, anyway, I call a few people. I end up talking to a chick named Susan who used to work for me. And Susan says, listen, everybody's been interviewed by the FBI. She said, they want to talk to you. The agent gave me her phone number. This is her cell number. She wants you to call her if I ever talk to you. Let me give you the phone number. I don't have anything to say to this woman. And she goes, no, no, please just call. Maybe you could turn yourself in. Maybe you could work something out. Maybe you could. So, you know, I pick up the phone. So I say, okay.

She gives me the number. I call her. She answers the phone. She says, hey, this is, you know, hello. And I said, hi. She goes, this is, you know, Agent Candace Calderon. Who's this? And I go, this is Matt Cox.

And she goes, oh, hi, Mr. Cox. How are you? I said, hey, how's it going? I understand you've been looking for me. She goes, yeah. I said, well, what can I do for you? She said, I'd like you to turn yourself in. And I said, yeah, it's not going to happen.

And she goes, well, let's talk about this. I said, okay, well, what's up? And she goes, well, I mean, we're, you know, you're going to get caught. Like, I understand you just did something in Atlanta. You're in trouble there. You're in trouble here. She said, we're investigating everybody. Everybody's cooperating against you.

She said, everybody's telling, you know, it's just getting worse and worse. She said, at this point, if you come in and cooperate, you could help yourself. And you still have seen the Godfather. I saw the Godfather. You don't cooperate. Yeah. So, plus, I'm on the run. I'm having a good time'm not having it's not it's not like it's like most people like oh i was riddled with anxiety and it was so stressful the truth is you know lived for it i loved it

other than becky i had a great time you just got rid of her did you see what was the name of that guy that ran shadow crew um i just saw a video i just saw like danny interviewed him uh shadow crew yeah he ran oh oh the hacker the hacker yeah uh what what the fuck is his name that was a great podcast with danny yeah yeah uh the guy like i looked at this guy and you could tell he loved it. Like I just saw an interview with him. He is such, that dude is an interesting dude. Animated. Yes. Thrilled.

Knew what he was doing was over the top and loved it. What was his name? He was so good. That's such a great podcast. That was, what number concrete was that? I just watched a two-part series on Web of Make Believe. It's a series that's on Netflix. And I watched a two-part series on him.

And the interviews with him are just great. He's great. Yeah, his name is Brett Johnson. Brett Johnson. That's it. That's concrete number 134. That's a phenomenal podcast. People should check that out.

Concrete with a K on the front. Brett Johnson on the run. Like you could just see he loved it. Like he didn't pretend he's not pretending like all these guys get caught and say, I was relieved that being on the run was the worst part of my life. I was so scared and I was so this and I was looking over my shoulder. I wasn't looking over my shoulder. I'm getting traffic tickets. I'm arguing with police officers. I'm having a good time. I'm I'm scamming banks like i'm having a blast

Yeah, i'm going wherever I want, you know, like I said, look there's there's no And I've I know you've heard me say this like there's just there's no feeling in the world like walking in a bank with Giving them a bunch of false documents And then having them Thank you for you know, give them, they cut you a check for $250,000 and thank you for ripping them off. I mean, it is, you feel like fucking James Bond. There's something in all human beings, not necessarily on like this kind of crime spree or whatever, but just in like general in the world where when we aren't allowed to do

something, getting away with it yeah getting there is this rush you can get from that and it's it leads it's what leads to so many problems i mean the most basic example would be like in high school oh don't drink i'm gonna drink right you know what i mean smoking a cigarette or cheating on a test or skipping school that guy brett though i really like that dude he had you know you you we talked about last time with you like obviously you you had some tough things growing up for sure that that shaped a lot of things he that dude's childhood was like whoa i i understood exactly and he does too like he has a good view on it now like yeah this is why i ended up doing this stuff i didn't know anything

else but to survive and this is how i survived you know it was it's that's just a great podcast yeah glad you brought that up yeah and he thought yeah he's a great it he's a great interview you can have guys that just are so over the top and have done amazing things or have have great great stories but they can't tell him he can tell it yeah yeah he's very very um it's almost like he's a narrator yeah he has that feel i was gonna say the guy that worked with him the actual ha the hacker guy that worked with him was doesn't really know how to tell his story no enthusiasm you'd have to watch the episode where they interview both of them and he not enthusiastic super smart guy but he almost seemed like he was on the spectrum well that's the thing like brett was a hacker and you know the stereotype with that but

like you would never guess this guy was a hacker if You talked to him on the street. He's like this Unbelievably like Southern charm charismatic like I said like great storyteller a lot of these guys. It's tough You know, they're not that's not their personality, right? Like imagine you must doing the same shit like that kind of guy But then trying to tell that story where he's doing all the talking like Brett it wouldn't work he can't do it it wouldn't work um well anyway so I'm like look so I'm going back I call Candace Calderon I'm talking to her and what a name too listen she's she was she bad? She despised me. No, was she bad, though?

Oh, yeah. She's a hot agent. She was... You know what's funny? It's like the Secret Service agent that I worked with or the... That you worked with. The one that eventually caught me. My partner.

Yeah, my partner. No. The one that basically was in charge of my case, right? Like, she was attractive. Candace was attractive. You know, like, everybody involved, like, these were, like, they hire these good-looking, I don't know what it is. It's like, come on, man, stop. Don't talk to Jim DiIorio.

You've got to hire some fatties. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, I don't think he knew a lot of them, but, okay. Who's that? What? Jim DiIorio. I would ask him, like, sometimes I'm like, he'll talk about agents. I'm like. Who's that? Jim DiIorio. I would ask him. Sometimes he'll talk about agents. I'm like, was she hot?

He's like, no. No, listen. Both of these, the female agents were good looking. But Candace was like 6 foot, like 5'10", 5'11", and she would wear heels. She was a giant. Fake tits. Tan. In the feds.

Yes. That's a smart move. i listen but an angry person so i'm talking to her talking to her on the phone while you're committing fraud you know you should still be professional so the secret service agents were all you know so funny the fbi which you think of is as the elite right all condescending, rude. They were basically like thuggish. The Secret Service, super polite, very professional, very matter-of-fact. White glove service. Huh?

White glove service. Yeah, very nice. Very nice, very polite. Like they, to me, that's the – like they knew what they were doing. When they caught me, like they knew what was happening. And they were a pleasure to work with. Absolutely. FBI, not – FBI – you know what's so funny there's the my other partner the other fbi agent who's a partner of mine who came to visit me several times and worked

with me in the fed um she was actually very attractive too oh when you were in prison when i was in prison because there's another there's a fourth one you're sending a hot fbi agent a hot woman fbi agent into the prison yeah are they nuts well she's not nobody knows i'm talking to her i'm not trying to get stabbed oh that's true right they're hiding they don't come to my fucking cell right yeah they they they call you like you're going to medical or something or you got to go to visitation you got to go here or there and you're like oh what what's this about So what happens is I'm driving. And I'm driving. And I talk to, and I call, I'm talking to Candice.

And she says, look, you need to turn yourself in. And I said, well, what are we talking about here? She's, look, I don't know. That's not how it works. The way it works is you turn yourself in. And we take it into consideration, you turn yourself in. I said, yeah, I'm not doing that. I said, I need to know what I'm facing. She goes, that's not how it works is you turn yourself in and we we take it in consideration you turn yourself in i said yeah i'm not doing that i said i need to know what i'm facing she's that's not how it works i said well okay i'm nice talking to you glad we had this moment and she's like well wait a minute

let me call let me call the u.s attorney in tampa and let me call the u.s attorney and see what he can get if he can work something out with you i said okay yeah you get bob on the line yeah so i i said you know I said okay um she goes you have to understand we're going to catch you you understand that right I always say that and I said yeah I said so she was we're gonna catch you I said yeah well what's taking you so long I said if you're she was where she was oh she was you just don't get it do you she's we're 90 sure of where you're at I said yeah well only a hundred percent counts i said and she uh and then she said i remember this it actually there's a whole thing where she kept calling me sweetie which bothered me um and that's what i said i said well only 100

counts sweetie and she goes listen let me explain something i said all right and and she she said you will you'll up eventually she goes you you'll go back to Tampa to visit somebody and someone will recognize you. She goes, or you'll get pulled over by the police. She said, and they'll arrest you. She goes, or you'll get, she said, or you'll get in contact with someone and then they'll turn you in. She goes, or the police will give you, pull you over to get your ticket. She said, and they'll arrest you. I said, okay, okay.

I said, she said, you will get caught. I said, okay, okay. She said, you will get caught. I said, listen, let me explain something. I said, one, I said, there's nobody in Tampa I want to see. I'm not stupid enough to go back there. I said, two, I said, I have like over 20 driver's licenses that were issued by the DMV. I said, I have over a dozen passports. I've had two dozen, but I said, over a dozen. I said, I just got back from, I said, from traveling outside the United States. I said, and I've been to traffic school as other people. I said, I've had facial reconstructive and reconstruction, multiple surgeries. I said, so if, I said, so if you ever, I said, nobody's going to recognize me. I go, so if you ever i said nobody's going to recognize me i go

so if you ever want to have this conversation in person you need to figure out we need to work out a deal and she goes she goes oh you're so she's you are so fucking cocky i said yeah well i'm not stupid enough to turn myself in and hope for the best and she goes she i said and she goes all right let me call the u.s attorney I said, okay, let's do that. So she calls, she said, and I remember she said, look,

she has, give me your phone number. You know, she has, give me your phone number so I can call you back. And I went, nah, you're probably triangulating this.

And she goes, Oh, get over yourself. You're not that important. And I remember thinking, yeah, like, well,

no, I remember thinking, yeah, who, who do you, who do I think i am like yeah like i don't i'm nobody like i like i'm not a terrorist that sounds like a textbook trap it did and it did and i went and i so i go you know what i'll just call you back in two hours

and i hung up the phone and she goes all right call me back and i hung up the phone she hung up the phone she did already have my phone number. Sure. Which back then, you know, it didn't, your phone number didn't necessarily come up. You know, like back then, if you called, you know,

even by like 05. Well, I don't know, but I mean, I don't know what date it was, but you didn't necessarily come up and she asked me for my phone number. Like she didn't have it, but she did have it.

So she immediately calls the U S marshals, gives them the phone number. They track the phone back to, they couldn't triangulate it because I had turned it off. But what they did was they called, it was like a mobile phone or, you know, PC mobile or some, one of the, you know, Verizon, whatever, Virgin, whatever. They track it back. They did track it back to where it was purchased. It was purchased at a convenience store that was connected to a gas station. And there was a subway in the gas station, like a Subway sandwiches. And so what I had done was after I hung up the phone, I walked over to Subway.

I sat down. I started playing on my laptop. So I'm literally 20 or 30 feet away from where I just bought the phone. They immediately contact two marshals in Baton Rouge because I was close to Baton Rouge. By this point, I've driven out of – I'm going through Louisiana, and I pulled over. That's where I got the phone. So you called her right after you bought the phone? Yeah, because I sat down, and I programmed it and made the call.

Then after we had this conversation, standing outside the subway, I go in and have dinner, have lunch. So I walk in. I'm having lunch. They're fucking barreling toward the place. This is another one of those scenes where I didn't know this. I always assumed she didn't do anything because I literally called back like two hours later. I call back and she says, listen, I called, I left a message. U.S. attorney's name was Robert Mazikowski. He's going to call back.

She says, I'm sorry. Can you call me? Give me another two hours. I said, no problem. I hang up the phone. Wait, his name was actually Bob. Didn't I say that? Get Bob on the phone wait his name was actually bob didn't i say that get bob on the phone yeah yeah yeah you're right fuck wow so so i'm sitting i sit there for another 20 minutes and then i pack up my stuff i said you know what i can't wait here four fucking hours so i pack my shit up i'll just call it from the road i i get in my rider truck and i drive off i later find out the u.s marshals showed up they had just missed me and the the person at the counter said he remembered me but like found me on you know they they looked on the surveillance whatever but they missed me so once again it's one of those things where i like this thing i'm

driving off as they roar in there and lock up their pranks but i don't know that that happened but you know it's one of those things where it's like, they just missed me. Because you couldn't enjoy it in the moment. No, exactly. It was later when I was like, holy shit. Like, they actually fucking, like, she totally snowed me. Like, I totally believed that she didn't look it up. She didn't know my number. She didn't look it up.

She wasn't triangulating. Back then, they used to call it triangulating. Now, it's like pinpoint. They don't still call it triangulating? I don't know now. Now, what does it matter? Now, they like pinpoint. They don't still call it Triney? I don't know now. Now what does it matter? Now they got GPS. They'll fucking go straight to where your house is.

I don't know how they do it, but now it's like I got – Location services, baby. They just track you right down. Like I know that you're in your spare bedroom right now sitting on the bed. They're that close to you. So anyway, but the only reason they got there was because they knew that that 7-Eleven or that convenience store had sold the phone. So they knew they had an actual address of where it had been sold. So they went straight there. So I'm driving, I'm driving. I call her back eventually. And she says, look, I talked to the, I talked to a U.S. attorney. U attorney u.s attorney said that um seven years i went seven years seven years matt she

said that's a good deal you'll go straight to a camp if you cooperate you'll probably get less time than that um i was like okay well i don't um that includes everything right and she goes look she said listen she said everybody's cooperating against you said, you need to get in front of this thing. You need to get here. You need to make sure. She said, because we need your help to put this together. It's super complicated. I said, okay, okay.

How much later is this phone call when this is being made? Like an hour and a half later. Like I've been driving. Okay, got it. So, you know, I'm like, okay, okay. I'm like, what about, I'm like, okay, okay. I'm like, what about, I'm like, okay, well, and you understand that there's probably other stuff I've done that you don't know about. She's like, right, well, if you come in, you'll get like, she's called like queen for a day or something like that. She goes, where you tell us everything you've done and anything that we don't really know about, you get a pass.

You're exempt. You get a pass. Provided you cooperate. Right. Provided you cooperate. And I went, I said, I don't know, seven years. That seems ridiculous. a pass you're exempt you get a pass provided you cooperate right provide you call and i went um um i said i don't know seven years that seems ridiculous and i went so so that's gonna include everything that includes atlanta that includes everything right because i know that they don't

know about i'm thinking they don't know about south carolina yet it's only been a few days so i don't know Do you have an attorney at this point? Have you got someone new? So you're going to need to do that now? Yeah. Well, I would have to. So I say, oh, listen, I don't turn myself in. So I keep driving. And I said, okay. I said, look, well, where would I turn myself? She goes, come to Tampa, turn yourself in in Tampa. I can, I can arrange to have your wife there or your ex-wife there. I can arrange to have your son there. I can arrange to have your parents there. I can let you spend a couple hours with them.

I'll just – we'll just sit down, no handcuffs, nothing. And I went, okay. I said, well, maybe I should – I'm closer to Atlanta. She says, no, no, no. Don't go to Atlanta. You have to come here to the FBI building. Like I can meet you at your parents' house. Why?

Or – right. That's what I'm thinking. Why? And I went, you know, I said, I have a question for you. I said, I've asked you three times now, does this include everything? You have yet to say it includes everything. Does this include Atlanta and other things and she goes we're gonna catch you eventually and i went oh no no no no no and i said does this include atlanta and she said the u.s attorney in tampa can't speak for the u.s for what's happening in atlanta that's between you and atlanta but i can tell you we i can make a phone call i said oh you fucking almost had me seven years for what i did in tampa i'm gonna get another seven years

for the atlanta and and and another seven i mean i'm gonna get i'm thinking 15 16 years at this point you know it's really unique i just thought of this too with this whole story you know you've talked about during this time you're just a radical narcissist and all those things but maybe it's because out of need because of the skill set you had and the things you did but even if you were a radical narcissist you were an unbelievable listener on details and being able to catch things from not just from in this case cop but like from all these people that's like I've never really heard of that before narcissists are always just they don't hear a fucking thing but you

had that it's funny I had a reporter who said it's odd that you're a narcissist she said and yet you you love you've chosen a profession like writing and doing podcasts where you have to take interest in other people and she said that's odd i said she says how do you think that that works and i said i think it works because it's in my best interest. I said, you're confusing listening for my best interest as opposed to actually caring about these people and caring what they're saying. I'm caring because I'm gathering information for my benefit. This is why I tell people Matt Cox is one of the most self-aware people i've ever talked to i mean like you really you know you don't give a shit i look and i'm sorry i feel bad i feel bad about that i wish i was a better person but i'm not so i so i'm talking to her and she says to me and i'm like oh you fucking you know i can't fucking believe i said oh you

almost had me you almost had me and and she goes look i can call uh i can i can work something i said lady i wouldn't believe you if you told me water was wet and i picked up the phone and i chucked it out the window that was it and the report just said that like i had contacted the that the call got dropped um from the fo yeah yeah exactly the foia came in and it was just like, it was like, at this many minutes

the phone, the call was dropped. Like, you know, she explains what was said in an FBI 302. She just kind of briefly says what it is. So now what?

I mean, I drive straight to Charlotte. I'm driving to Charlotte. You're going back to Charlotte. I'm going back to Charlotte. I need a car. I've got a U-Haul van. Like, I figure I need. I need a car. I've got a U-Haul van. Like, I figure I need a car.

I can't drive around in a U-Haul van. So, I'm driving an empty U-Haul. You know, I'm bouncing around. It's like, this isn't sexy. Con men don't drive this. So, I drive. It's discreet. Yeah.

I drive back. I actually drop off the U-haul van um yeah i drop it off and i take a taxi they they just have these things called taxis so i take what a taxi is i take some in new york i take a taxi back to um to my apartment building and i stop and i get out and i go upstairs to where my i don't go to the apartment i go to the apartment garage because that's where the car was and i worry they trace this fuck yeah i was terrified it's like so i remember getting when i got up there i kind of like i'm looking but it was halfway empty i guess there's almost nobody there like i'm looking around like there's

no place to hide nobody's here and there's no, no black van with blacked out windows or anything. So I get in my car and I start the car and I drove in. As soon as I drive out of the apartment complex, the garage, I remember thinking, I'm good. I'm good. I've got this. I'm good. You did it again, Matt. They haven't put it together.

I'm good. So I remember thinking, I need coffee. There's a Starbucks. So I drive catdy corner right around the corner to the starbucks and i get a parking space right up front like what i started once in a million it's once in a lifetime parking space so i pulled right up and i'm like this is great right in front everything's turning my way got the parking space got the car i'm good i go in there i say hey i walk in i order the my I turn around. There's two people from my apartment complex standing there.

And they're staring at me. This is like the fourth or fifth. I never paid my rent because obviously I'm ditching. So I look at them and they're like, they're staring late my rent not being paid like they're taking this serious like look at these two and they're they're like they're like they won't look away like they're like look at me finally the woman they're waiting for their coffee by the way they're standing like at the barista where i'm standing like i'm five feet away and so and it's it's so this is like the end of breaking bad when walter white's walking around and they're like staring back like everyone now knows who he is and they're all staring at me he's like hi like that's what i'm like but you didn't realize it at all no i don't

guess no i don't know and listen i'm not that bright like like these are all things that you realize later you're like that makes sense yeah i remember that so what happens is the the woman walks out the back of the starbucks right and so she walks out immediately like rushes out and goes and the guy's just staring at me they call his order he gets his little foam tray gets a bunch of coffees he's standing there and she's gone and i'm waiting waiting they call my order i get my my little vanilla latte or whatever it is okay i go to leave what i didn't know was that she had bolted out of there she went straight back to the apartment complex leasing office because she and he had just been interviewed by the u.s

marshals and they were still there interviewing people so she had the apartment they were they were there they were a block away right around the around the block while you had gone like yeah well i was i was safe remember i left the parking lot i was safe so i i that she rushes off and i get in my car i walk out he follows me out i get my car i put my coffee down i start the car i put my seat belt on I'm playing with the radio. He's standing there staring at me and I'm thinking, the fuck is going on? I genuinely had not put it together. Then all of a sudden, he starts screaming, he's right here, he's right here. This is going to sound dramatic, but it wasn't at the time. But I mean, literally, like I look in

the rearview mirror and there are two guys in like dark gray – I don't know what they were wearing, you know, jackets or what – running towards the back of my car. And I just was like, fuck. And the guy drops the tray. He's screaming. Like, he's, you know – Kaiser Soze! Absolutely. And, I mean, like like if he had never screamed

he never screamed i would have stayed there the only reason was he was so emphatic about it like if he just waved his hand i wouldn't have known that you just sat in the car i would just sat i'm bro i'm i'm getting my shit i'm going for a long drive yeah i'm getting my shit. I'm going for a long drive. I'm getting my shit straight. So, look, I just – and I was like, holy shit, and I fucking punch it, and I pull into downtown traffic and just shoot down the road. And who were the guys running at you? Were those – U.S. Marshals. I found out later. Like, I went initially –

You didn't even know then. No, because initially I was telling everybody it was like the Secret Service. I was like, no, I think it was definitely the Secret Service or FBI, Secret Service, FBI. It wasn't until later I got the Marshalls report where they say they had gone, they had talked to them, that they had just missed me, and they put a bolo out on my – A bolo? Be on the lookout. Oh. So it's a be on the lookout for and my tag number.

It's funny, too, because like when I, it's like you learn all these things. Like I remember buying a cell phone, right? When I bought like the burn phone. But like, I didn't know what kind of cell phone. It's not till I got the report where I found out like it was a Virgin Mobile. You know, it's those little things that when you order the Freedom of Information Act, you find these little tiny things. Wow, I did that?

Yeah. Well, you know, it's like, oh, it was a version of, I just put it like it was a prepaid cell phone. Yeah. And then, like, when they run off, like, they have, like, at 1.15, approximately 1.15, this is what happened. I couldn't tell you when it was. I don't know if it was at 8 in the morning.

I don't know. It was actually early, because I dropped off the stuff. It was the next day in the morning when I dropped off the writer early. Like, I got there before anybody got there, and I was just the stuff. It was the next day in the morning when I dropped off the rider early. Like I got there before anybody got there and I was just waiting around. So it was still, and I remember there was a line like, well, I was in there a while.

Same thing. If they hadn't been so emphatic, the cops, the U S marshals would have walked right up on me. Hey, Mr. Cox. Ah,

fuck. You know, but instead I hit the gas. I take off. And that sounds great. Don't you? Don't you see my car peeling out sideways like I'm fishtailing down the road? That's not really what happened.

Like I'd already seen. There was no cars there. I just kind of pulled off and just drove off and hit the gas. Very anticlimactic. Yeah. And when you hit the gas in the new cars, like they got the anti-slip thing. So there was no peeling out. There's no fishtailing.

You just, boom, gone. And these guys are standing. It makes it sound like the fingertips were just touching the back bumper. They were maybe 60, 70 feet. Son of a bitch. Still, still. I think that – Is this still 05, by the way?

This is still 05. Jesus Christ. Yeah. So what happens is – anyway, what ends up happening is I drive straight down the street and I pull over at a homeless facility and I interview three guys. Because, listen, there were three guys that they were like in their 30s and they were white guys. They were prime. They were white guys in their 30s. Trust me.

You can't let that go by. It was like maybe a mile or two down the road. I'm like, where am I driving? And then I'm going – my heart's beating and then I'm like oh white guys homeless time to take a survey pull over i've got the survey forms in the car i get out hey fellas i work for the salvation army oh like a kid in toys r us can you imagine like there's i'm sitting there taking the survey there's cop cars like whipping by and i'm sitting there like mother's maiden name what's your social exactly social security number what's going on i don't know looks like they look pretty upset if you didn't have the

bell you needed the salvation arm something's something's definitely happening i don't know where would you go to high school okay so yeah i get in the car I drive all the way to Nashville, Tennessee. I get to Nashville. So I get to Nashville. I drive around Green Hills. What's your favorite city for fraud, by the way? For fraud? Yeah.

Like what's the most fraud-friendly place? This is perfect. This is a perfect segue for that because I get to Nashville. I'm driving around looking for a place. I've stopped at like a Kinko's. So the night before I got to Nashville, right? I immediately go into what there used to be these Kinko's. Kinko's right now.

Is that like a sex shop? No. Kinko's is now the UPS stores. Okay. So I go into a UPS store, you know where they have the boxes and they have the... Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I go into a UPS store or like a FedEx. Go into like a FedEx and I order like 100 cards, business cards. So I get a burner phone. I get a bunch of cards made up for a company called

Manufactured Funding Group. I say that I'm an acquisition specialist. I put my, you know, I put the name, I use the name Joseph Carter because one of the guys that I had met was Joseph Marion Carter Jr. I didn't want to be a Marion, so it was Joseph. So I went by Carter. So it was just Joseph Carter. So I get a business cards with the phone number with a PO box going to the UPS store. And I've got these business cards and a phone. I'm driving around looking for a place. I've stayed in a hotel that night. So the next morning I'm driving around. It's whatever, it's like 11 o'clock or something.

And as I'm driving through Green Hills, super nice area. You know, I want to stay in a nice area. So I'm driving and I look and there's an older guy probably in his late 60s putting a sign in the front yard of a house it actually ends up being like a townhouse but it didn't look like it so I see him putting the sign the front yard I boom I pull in I hop out I have no ID I've not much and I said hey are you running a place and the guy goes oh yeah so we walk inside it's like a two-bedroom two two bedroom, two bath or something. I look at it. I come back down. I said, okay. I said, what? I said, here. I said, give my business card. And I said, hey, I said, I just moved to the area, blah, blah, blah. I'm from wherever. I said, I was from Charlotte,

wherever. I said, I'm from here. Just moved here. Been with the same company, but this is what I do. And I said um what are you looking for exactly I said you need to pull my credit do you need to you know what are you looking for first month last month what and he goes he looked at me he looked me up and down he looked at the car I was driving and he said I'll take he is you look like an honest young man. He said, I'll just take the first month and last month's rent. And I thought, and I remember thinking,

I'm going to like it here. They're very, they're very, they're very trusting, very trusting people in Nashville. And I thought, this is going to be a good town for me. Yeah.

So I count out the cash. Don't even have a bank account. Give them cash. Do you mind cash? Nah, of course not. Love cash. Don't even have a bank account. Give them cash. Do you mind cash? No, of course not. Love cash. Love cash. Boom, boom, boom, boom.

Gives me the keys. Get the electric and water. I had to stay in a hotel again for like a night or two. Get the water and electric turned on. Get some cheap furniture. Not cheap furniture. I get a nice bed and everything. Bedroom furniture.

But get some basic furniture. Are you going to go settle the loan again? On that house? Did the mortgage? No, no, no. This is literally just a place to stay. I'm planning on laying low. So I lay low. I start dating. I actually get in my car and I drive

the Infinity all the way back to Charlotte. I leave it in long-term parking i get in on a plane and i fly back this is after i got my id by the way because i get my i ordered all my documents within about a week i have everything i need to be joseph carter i then get a driver's license as joseph carter and as soon as i get the driver's license i then drive the car back to Charlotte. I leave it in Charlotte because I don't want them to find this car

in Nashville. I want them to be a... I want Charlotte to be a dead end. What are you doing for money, though? I've got like almost 100 grand, remember? Well, yeah, you had to be blown through some of that. I am, but let's say I'm down to 20. I mean, it doesn't take that much to set me up.

Like, for 20... So are you plotting the next move now? Of course. Yeah. Of course. You're making it sound like you aren't. No, no, I want to hang out for a while. Just a few months.

Like, I start dating. You know, I get on Match. I get on Plenty of Fish. Was that your profile picture? The wanted poster? No, I had better. I had a picture that was the equivalent of Magnum from Zoolander. Like I did the whole –

Like you do now on your YouTube stuff. Yeah, absolutely. I might put it on this thumbnail. We'll see. Yeah, absolutely. It's definitely – so I give him – I think I give him Magnum or – what was the other one he had? Blue Steel? Yeah, it was Blue Steel.

Blue Steel or Magnum or what was the other one? He wasn't La Tigra. He wasn't like, you're not ready for La Tigra. I'm still working on it. La Tigra. So whatever, though. How far are you past the hair transplant now? It was successful, obviously.

So is everything looking normal? Yeah, I've had surgeries in a couple different places. You understand that Becky had multiple surgeries, too, by the way. What did you have done to her? Oh, not me. Did you get some upgrades? Not me. I didn't have anything

then she wanted a boob job she wanted a tummy tuck she wanted lipo she wanted so motivated I like that because trust me when she got caught she got her her first thing was he made me get a boob job I didn't want one he made me you had a woman who wanted to look better hey that's that's great man so anyway i start dating i end up dating this chick named amanda gardner this is um several months in real name or alias no real name amanda gardner shout out amanda how are you um it's funny because she always gets contacted by like people for to do stuff and she's always like yeah yeah, I can't. I'm not. I can't do that.

Like she works for like the State Department or something. Oh, no. Or like the Department of Defense or something. Yeah, she's like, I can't. Back then she did? No. I was going to say. Fuck.

She was ex-military. She had just gotten out of the military. She had a little boy. We started dating. Within a few months, she's moved in. And actually what happened was by this point huh with the kid yeah i'm not a child molester no i know but still like you're you know you're living a wild life now there's a kid around yeah yeah he's like five so um independent

so he's pretty good he's driving himself to school he's he's doing his own thing you know that's what you were thinking he's old enough he's doing his own thing so um what ends up happening is i i go into nashville an area of nashville called um napier it's a napier subdivision it's right next to the uh right next to the projects. And I buy a bunch of houses. So I buy a bunch of houses and these are houses, the area is selling for 50, 60,000. So I buy a bunch of houses

that are selling for 60, 70,000 that have been rehabbed. Like a rehab house, which is completely renovated house. It's selling for 75. Right. Well, i go in there and i convince four different people to owner finance their houses and they owner finance their houses and then i record the value of those sales at like 200 000 175 179 like 185 20 205 000 like really I then, I then, I create a website for a company called Nashville Restoration Project. And I put banners on the front of all these places that say Nashville Restoration Project

with the, with the website. And I'm trying to build the community up, do a nice thing. It's urban renewal. So trying to gentrify the area so um what what ends up happening is that i i do this and um i how can you put this so i do this and then i i not satisfying loans, but the values are so high, and I've convinced these people to own or finance them that I almost immediately turn around. I have to wait a few months because Joseph Carter doesn't have great credit scores right now. I have to wait six months.

So at six months, I then refinance, start refinancing the house. I'm in the middle of refinancing all these houses when I meet Amanda. So I refinance them. And like, I mean, literally, I'm getting checks for $190,000, $150,000. I bought the house for like $55,000 or $60,000. I'm paying off. Here's your $60,000. I keep $60,000. And then I've got minimal payments. I rent the houses out i then go buy more houses and renovate those houses clean them up a little bit refinance those houses so just stacking right and by this point i'm dating amanda at some point you have any idea by the way she so at some point i explained her because she's very worried like i i go to thanks dinner or Thanksgiving and we have Thanksgiving at her parents house which is in

it's in Jacksonville Florida so I have to go to Jacksonville you went to Florida? It was Jacksonville so it's on the cut so I go there and her mom like Amanda is you know she's constantly like look it doesn't make sense like you

moved here you have no pictures of anybody you have everything you own is brand new like you don't have a shirt that's more than six months old like you don't have anything that's like something's happening i'm like i don't know what's happening like i didn't want to lie to her you know i'm just like look not a pictures guy yeah you ask a lot of questions, you know? So, like, and so I basically— What's your name this time again? Oh, I'm Carter. Carter, right. Joseph Carter, but I go by Carter.

Yeah. So, anyway, yeah, and she's just like, something's up, something's up. She's always asking, her mom is like, he's married. No, no, her mom, her dad's like, he's probably married. Her mom is saying, I think, no, I think her mom said I was married and her dad said I was, they think they believe that I was in the witness protection program because they said he used to own a mortgage company or something in Tampa. Then he, he, he. Oh, you told him that? I told her, I don't know what exactly I told her, that I owned a lender or I worked in the industry. And then I said,

I've traveled for a little bit and now I've relocated here and i just don't talk to anybody in tampa why not i just don't like i don't want to lie about it you could pass as like joey changlini or something i could see you as like you know running south florida crew for somebody untrue it could work so yeah so anyway i just tell her all that and i tell her that and she eventually um but yeah they they think something's wrong i'm refinancing these properties in the middle of this whole thing she ends up i've got a corporate lawyer who's opening up corporations for me and at some point she the corporate lawyer i sent something to corporate lawyer she didn't get it i asked amanda to resend it when she goes into my word documents she sees like letter to mom

and dad like she looks through my stuff and she looks it up and it says george and margaret cox and then it says it's you know i signed it matthew so she looks up matthew cox and she sees fraud and she sees this you know most wanted uh you know secret services most wanted um and i'm like holy shit so so then that night i went to go turn my computer off or something and I go to close it out and the last file that was open shows up. Oh, no. And so I go to close like Word or something. I go click it and I see letter to mom and dad. So I hit the fucking history bar and it's just, you know, all these articles and everything.

And she's acting like nothing's wrong. Are you waiting for the door to pop in? No. No, I just walk in. I'm like, what did you do? What did you do? Because she knows something's up. And she's like, I's wrong are you waiting for the door to pop in no no i just walk in i'm like what did you do what did you do because she knows something's up and she's like i'm like what did you do and she's like she breaks down crying oh my god i'm so sorry i i didn't realize i i just stumbled upon it i didn't mean to i should never looked it up i'm sorry i'm like oh my god i gotta leave oh you can't know who i am so we have a you know a pretty frank conversation and she begs and pleads

me to not leave she loves me she's she's sorry she would never do it again she'll never mention the name she won't tell anybody no problem okay fine so we're hanging out we're doing great we're now buying houses renovating them selling them refinancing them doing whatever like we're now kind of turning trying talking about it into like a normal business. And we're traveling. Yeah, I'm trying to think back because there's so much to keep track of. But that part, there's not crime in that. No.

It's just, yeah. I mean there's crime because it's crime because I'm not the person I say I am. Well, that part, yes. Right, right. Yeah, so I'm just buying them. But the actual action is technically provided value of like moving houses for real. Right. It's not a big deal. Yeah, so I'm just buying them. But the actual action is technically provided value of moving houses for real. Right. It's not a big deal.

Yeah. I'm not – so we're traveling. I've dated her for over a year. So it's been over a year at this point. Now we're in 06. Yeah. We're in 06. We're in late 06.

Yeah. So now it's late 06. It was late 05 when I met her. So it's now late 06. You haven't talked to calderon in a while no i don't talk to anybody i mean listen we i've got fake everything passports i've got dozens of ids i got dozens everything's going on i got all kinds of stuff and she and i are traveling like we're going to we go to we go to italy we go to greece we go to croatia like i'm traveling all

over i'm going all over the place like we're having a blast wow you know she's got everything i buy her a new car i buy this i mean anything she needs and you know what you want whatever you want to do um what's your favorite place you traveled to uh i would say i would say probably venice was super cool yeah I mean it was just – and I think – and part of it is I think, and this is silly. There's just no – the no cars thing I like. I don't know why. It's so – I don't want to say romantic, but there's a romantic kind of like you're stepping back in time kind of feel to it. And everything, the cobblestone street, like there's just nothing – it's just like really stepping back in time kind of feel to it and everything the cobblestone street like there's just nothing

it's just like really stepping back in time it's kind of weird like when you're staying i forget what the one big square is called like the big plaza that's on the water is it saint peter's or and it's there's a basilica saint peter's basilica i think that's literally it and it's like when you're standing there that's the only wide open part and then you stare out it's just this ocean you're like wait we're on land but we're not really on no you're not you're standing there, that's the only wide open part. And then you stare out. It's just this ocean. You're like, wait, we're on land, but we're not really on land. No, you're not. You're really kind of being lifted up. And then they have that tower that is leaning. It's not the leaning tower.

It is a leaning tower. It's red brick. I don't remember. And it's actually slightly leaning. It's actually fallen over before. It's off to the side. Anyway. Beautiful place. Anyway, so you were traveling with her a bunch it's late oh six she knows what you do but now you're doing like some kind of legitimate business a little bit

right and so at that point she she's constantly googling me because she's terrified like she's she's you know um concerned like you know girls are concerned about you. So she's constantly looking. And at one point, we're in the dentist office or dentist office, I think, and she's looking through like a Bloomberg Businessweek or something. And she comes across an article that's called Sharks in the Housing Pool. And it's an article on Becky and I that Bloomberg Businessweek had done on us. Oh, that's where you got that. The shark in shark in the house right there's this was sharks in the housing pool but yeah so it talks about becky and i and it's got my picture and she's like she even got credit for it too yeah she got credit for your work and she definitely got definitely got credit

for it because she got some time so um so amanda sees amanda's like holy shit like we're sitting there and she's like boom i. I'm like, oh. Like, that's a national magazine. Keep in mind, too, now the Chicago Tribune is running articles, the St. Pete Times, the Tampa Tribune, the Atlantic Journal-Constitution. The, you know, it's getting, like, it's getting bad. And then one day, Fortune Magazine does an article she finds out fortune magazine's coming out and it's becky it's an interview with becky she'd been caught oh becky got caught because she confided i was told there's two different things becky says she was working as a waitress she said after about a year or so she said i got bored and i was going to she was working as a waitress. She said after about a year or so, she said, I got bored and I

was going to, she was going to cosmetology, she was going to do hair, right? Cosmetology school? Yeah, I think that maybe. Maybe? I don't know. She's going to hair school. Beauty school. Beauty school. So she's going to beauty school and she's working to just have something to do. Like she's got a couple cars. She

hadn't worked in over a year and she figured I just needed something to do. So I got this little job at a bar next to my house. I'm going to school. And she says that a couple guys from the U.S. Marshal's office came in and recognized her and then went and got her poster and came back and looked at her and then said, oh, it's her. And then they followed her for a couple days, and they arrest her at school. What the Secret Service told me was that Becky had been in contact with her mother and had confided, in one conversation she

confided that she was living in Houston, Texas. In another conversation she told her mother that, and she never said her mother by the way. They just said a family member. They didn't tell me mother. But her mother by the way she she just said they just said a family member they didn't tell me mother but her mother was the only person she's really would have contacted

so then in another conversation what uh she told her i'm going to a beauty school so the mother contacted the u.s u.s or secret service and said she's in a beauty school in houston texas they just canvassed those schools showed her picture picture. Somebody said, that's her. They went straight to her fucking, straight to her classroom and rushed in on her with fucking guns. Boom. Hey, get on the ground, get on the ground,

get on the ground. In the middle of class. Was she on her Zoloft when they did this? I don't know, but here's what was so funny was when I got caught, you know what they told me? They said literally the whole,

like the 30, 45 minute drive all the way to the Secret Service's office. They said the entire time, she said, I don't know who Rebecca Houck is. My name is Rebecca Hickey. You guys fucked up. You're going to lose your job. I'm going to sue you. You've embarrassed me. You made a mistake you need

to let me go like i don't know they're showing pictures of me she's like i don't know who that is you have no you have no fucking idea you really fucked up and they got all they said denied it until we actually put her hand on the scanner and she goes okay i'm rebecca howell what do you want to know well you taught her well you taught her well on the way there bro when they caught me and they said you are mr co. Cox, I said, yes, me. So how did it get there? We skipped that part. Well, it got there because –

The Fortune magazine. Fortune had come out. I remember we read Fortune. And so now there's more and more magazines coming out. It's getting bad. And then eventually Amanda finds out that Dateline NBC News is doing a program on me. And she goes, holy shit. Becky's been caught. She'd done an interview with Dateline. They're interviewing people. She went to the process? Like going through the legal system? Yeah. Yeah.

When you're with the marshals, you can be interviewed in prison. But she was interviewed on camera while in the U.S. marshal's holdover for daylight. Wow. Her lawyer arranges the whole thing. Wait. What's a holdover? Well, when you get caught in the federal system, before you're sentenced, the marshals are holding you. Right, right, right. They wait for you to get sentenced.

Once you're sentenced, you go into the the bop so they may put you at like mci in miami or yes or they'll put you in a in a local county jail and they'll have a special contract and special wing or something a special pod for them so anyway yeah she just um yeah so she's interviewed it comes Well, it's coming out. And Amanda finds out. This is in November. Like Amanda's freaking out. She's like, oh my God, they're coming out.

They're coming out. They're going to do this thing. And so I'm like, okay, here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to refinance the house. All these houses. I satisfy all the loans. I'm going to refinance it. I'm going to get it.

I've already gotten out. I borrowed like three and a half million dollars, I think, in Nashville at this point. So now I'm going to refinance and get out two or three million dollars. I'm going to get, I don't know what I was thinking I was going to get. Two million, four million, one million. I don't know. So I'm going to refinance these properties. I'm going to pull out a bunch of money. I'm going to pull out a bunch of money in cash. We're going to launder that money back into a bunch of into some corporations and we're going to

Australia. Because Australia at the time had a policy they probably still do, where if you showed up in Australia, they would make you a permanent resident alien. You don't have to get your fingers printed. If you want to become a citizen, you have to get your fingers printed. But you could show up there with a,

if you showed up there with $250,000 and a business plan, you get to be a permanent resident alien. You can buy property, sell property. You can open a business, but you cannot be, you cannot work there. So I can open a business and hire Aussies.

And stay there forever. Stay there, get a driver's license, like everything. I can't vote, obviously. I can buy property. I can sell property. You can Stay there, get a driver's license, like everything. I can't vote, obviously. I can buy property. I can sell property. You can retire there, basically.

But you cannot work there. Like, I can open a job. I can open a business and hire them. But I can't get employed there. So they had this policy. And all I have to do is show up with a business plan of $250,000. I'm showing up with a lot more. So that was our plan.

So we start pulling out cash. You were leaving the country. Oh, I'm out of here. And you're like, I'm never coming back to America. Well, I have to because at this point – Did you think about that, though? Like, I'm never going to be able to come back to my home country? Yeah, I don't care. I don't need to see these people anymore.

I'm done with them. So what – it's not that great. Anyway, I know know i know everybody oh americans you know it's all right it's all right but and and you know if you want to start a business and you want to try and make it big and i think america has got a pretty good system for that but to be honest let's face it i don't need to do that i can go to australia i can rent a bunch of jet skis buy some fucking houses and kick back and just just fix doors and windows and and do plug it just be a be a basic handyman for the rest of my life and live off of three or four million dollars

in real estate so i um yeah so we're we're we're ready to leave and just before so we're pulling money out and becky and i oh becky and i amanda and i had been seeing this girl, a chick named Trina. She was the third wheel? Yeah, we'd been messing around with this chick, Trina. She's coming over a couple times a week. You know what's happening. I don't have to get into it. So, you know, she likes Amanda a lot.

I thought she liked me a lot. She seemed very happy with me, with the situation. Apparently, she liked Amanda a lot more than me. And I mean, keep in mind, too, apparently she liked amanda a lot more than me and i mean keep in mind too we're i'm we're all hanging out a lot so um what ends up happening is um i one night or what we're asking people to cash checks for us construction workers friends contractors she asked trina to cash a bunch of checks. I am assuming that that sparked a conversation with why are you asking me to cash all these checks.

And Amanda most likely confided in her. Because Trina calls the Secret Service. Oh, no. Yeah. And tells them this is who this guy is. That's the worst third wheel ever. Right. Bad.

So this is who he is. This is what's the worst third wheel ever right bad so this is who he is this is what's going on she negotiates over the course of several days she negotiates like a ten thousand dollar a reward and keep in mind i'd have paid her i'd have given her a million dollars i'd give her every worth to her i'd have given her everything i had for a 10 minute head start like you could still call just give me a 10 minute head start i've given her everything ten thousand dollars so it's fucking embarrassing poor business move it've given her everything ten thousand dollars so it's fucking embarrassing poor business move it's like that guy back in tampa it's like i'm gonna i'm gonna need five hundred bucks are you serious for a thousand dollars so are you serious

so what's funny is um so yeah she calls and i end up one night. I'm sitting there, and boom, the front door gets kicked in. Two guys rush in with guns and masks and scream. No. I get a home invasion. So they grab Amanda and her son, put us on the ground in the bedroom, lay us all down, throw a blanket over us, search the whole house, steal a bunch of money. Not all of it. Like they didn't find stuff that's here and there. Like they get some money, probably a few hundred thousand. They grab a whole bunch of stuff and then they leave. And I think I was set up by like a construction worker. One of the construction

workers had, I had, by this point I had moved into jc napier area and i owned like 20 houses in the area so and i yeah and you know this is a white guy living in a black neighborhood he's got a lot of money they see a lot of cash they robbed me so somebody set me up and robbed me and the only reason i say that is because that's what the that's what the cop said the might have been the cop the detective the detective that showed up said look you're a white guy living in a black neighborhood and he goes you need to get out of here and I went what do you mean he said look what they didn't steal before

they're going to come back and steal he said you need to get you and your girlfriend or kid out of this neighborhood you weren't nervous because there was a cop in there while you're like all over I'm not worried it's just a local cop so you know we fill out the report and I so then so I end up going to a hotel, but they took everything. So the only thing I have is a passport in the name of Walter Holcomb.

Not even Joe Carter. No. So I just have a passport and Holcomb. They took all of our driver's licenses and one of our cars, everything. So they did this quick too. They were in and out in like five minutes. So I go to a hotel, check in as Walter Holcomb, and the next day I get a phone – no, two days later, we're now looking at other places. Like we're just going to buy another place.

This is like December maybe? No, this is mid-November. Okay. So I get a phone call from Trina. Keep in mind they took our cell phones, so it took a couple days to get new cell phones. This is the third wheel. Yes. Trina calls and in mind, they took her cell phone, so it took a couple days to get new cell phones. This is the third wheel. Yes. Trina calls and says, hey, where are you? And she says, I've been calling you and Amanda

for like two, three days now. And I went, well, you know, we're in a hotel. We had a home invasion. A couple of guys came in with masks. They had this. She says, well, where are you? No. Oh, my God. Are you guys okay? Oh, my gosh. Are you you you know nothing like i just told you that they put a five-year-old on the ground and a woman on the ground and all of us on there at gunpoint

where are you so i just told you i'm in a hotel what hotel i mean where i'm at the marriott like i don't know what hotel but it was like i'm at the marriott and she goes is man is amanda there and i went um amanda's like she was taking a shower she's taking a shower she goes she goes well tell her to call me back i said okay i hang up the phone like what the i tell her hey that was trina she said i don't want to deal with her next morning i go to work i have like a 5 000 square foot uh warehouse jesus christ um for the construction stuff um so Amanda's taking Cameron to school in the morning, dropping him off. And Trina calls. She goes, hey, she goes, where did you say you're staying?

And I said, I'm at like the Marriott. She goes, well, I called there and they said you're not staying there. And I went, because now, so what had happened was the Secret Service went there and they went there and said, what room is Joseph Carter in? They said, Joseph Carter's not here. I was there as Walter Holcomb. Oh, right. You had to, oh my God. So they then have to go back to her and say, well, you better call. Call them back.

Because they've been staking out my house now for three days. They showed up the day after the home invasion. It's now been three days. So they're like, what's going on? Has he fled? So she calls back and I say, look, I'm telling you that's where I fucking am. She goes, well, where are are you now i'm at the fucking office oh no and she goes you're at the office is amanda there is cameron there i said no amanda's dropping off camera why don't you call her cell phone she's got a cell phone she was okay she hangs up the phone i then get a phone

call from the local police saying hey can you meet us at your house because i had surveillance cameras and i had footage of the invade home invasions they go we want to get a copy of that phone home invasion footage had they been tipped off as to who you are yeah it's all set up yeah so i get my car i'm driving there and as i'm driving there amanda calls me and amanda goes oh my god carter where are you i said i'm on my way to the house the cops just called she said oh my god she said trina's freaking. I don't know what's wrong. Something's definitely wrong. I go, what do you mean what's wrong? She goes, I'm just, I'm worried about her. And I went, okay, well, she doesn't know anything. So what are you worried about? She goes, look, I think I fucked

up. What do you mean you fucked up? What does that mean? So I'm getting out of the car at this point. I'm walking towards my house and three, maybe four black SUVs pull up and lock up their brakes and a bunch of guys jump out all in black vests and start screaming, get on the ground, get on the ground. My first thought was, I'm being robbed again. I'm getting – like this has got to stop. Son of a bitch. This is really a bad neighborhood. Money's up there. I'm not even in my house.

So – and then I see it says Secret Service on the front of it. There are things in white. And they're pointing guns and they put me on the ground. They handcuffed me and they set me up and they brushed me off. And they said, they hold up a piece of paper and the guy goes, oh, I don't think it's him. He goes, no, no, it's him. It's him. He goes, no, man, look at him.

He goes, no, look at his eyes. It's him. It's him. He goes, oh, it's him. He goes, it is you, Mr. Cox, right? You are Matthew Cox, right? And I went, no, man, look at him. He goes, no, look at his eyes. It's him. It's him. He goes, oh, it's him. He goes, it is you, Mr. Cox, right? You are Matthew Cox, right? And I went, yeah. Unlike Becky, I wasn't gangster.

I didn't hold out 45 minutes to an hour. I mean, I'm done. And so he says, yeah, we've been looking for you. I said, oh, okay. So then I go back to their station. They print me. And then, of course, they question Amanda print me and then of course they question amanda and amanda shows up while they're at my house like did she end up getting charged for anything

no she didn't get charged for anything okay so they she goes immediately to our safety deposit box she removes the safety deposit box of all of its money and pulls out a bunch of passports and goes and ids and other people's names and goes straight to the Secret Service agent's office and goes, I've just checked my box and I found all of this in the box. Didn't turn into cash. So she's like, yeah, I had no idea. I knew we had one and he must've put that in there.

And of course, this is when they were talking to me later. They're like, it's funny she said that because we checked, you've never checked that box. You've never opened it. You've never that in there. And, of course, this is when they were talking to me later. They're like, it's funny she said that because we checked. You've never checked that box. You've never opened it. You've never been in there. They said, so she must have put those there. And I was like, I don't know.

She just cut her losses once this went down. Oh, very quickly. Yeah. So she got a lawyer. And, of course, she didn't know anything. She didn't do anything. She's willing to cooperate. She, whatever.

And, yeah, so I got arrested. And they handcuffed me. And the Secret Service agent came down immediately and said, we'd like to talk to you. And I said, I really want an attorney first. And then they eventually moved me and it takes them a while to move me all the way down to the point where I get an attorney in Atlanta. They consolidated all my cases in Atlanta. But I mean like that's – like me being locked up in the first day and the whole thing, like's a whole nother fucking thing and we've how long we've been going i was just gonna say matt cox you did it again i did not expect that this one i did not expect but like i kind of knew i guess like halfway through this time but like we're gonna leave off when you went to prison

oh yeah that's a whole nother chapter listen that's a huge chapter i'll see you in november that's yeah yeah and you have to think too, like I got 26 years. Bro, we're going to talk about all of it. But I didn't do 26 years. Exactly. They didn't count on me being as cunning and cutthroat. And resourceful. And resourceful as I am.

And that's a whole stack of bricks right there. All right. Well, we will do it. This was a good one again. All Alright. I'll see you in November. Absolutely. Alright. Everybody else, you know what it is. Give it a thought. Get back to me. Peace.