Julian Dorey Podcast - 🤯 [VIDEO] - Biblical Physicist Confronts ALIENS vs GOD | Hugh Ross • 167

Episode Date: November 14, 2023

(***TIMESTAMPS in Description Below) ~ Dr. Hugh Ross is an astrophysicist, astronomer, author, and creationist. EPISODE LINKS: - SIGN UP FOR MyBookie: https://www.mybookie.ag/mobile-betting/  - Julian Dorey PODCAST MERCH: https://legacy.23point5.com/creator/Julian-Dorey-9826?tab=Featured  - Support our Show on PATREON: https://www.patreon.com/JulianDorey  - Join our DISCORD: https://discord.gg/ubyXDkWx - SUBSCRIBE to Clips Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@UChs-BsSX71a_leuqUk7vtDg  ***TIMESTAMPS*** 0:00 - Other Biblical Physicists exist?; Hugh’s Childhood Space, Aliens, & God interest 6:32 - The Scientific Method & the Bible; The Big Bang 13:07 - Free Will & Consciousness; Hugh Ross & Changing Religion opinion 16:50 - Julian’s personal opinion on religion; Defying Physics for Jesus 20:42 - How far back does history go?; Multiverse Theory & Simulation Theory 26:46 - Evolution 29:32 - Verifying Jesus’ life 38:54 - Human Story-Changing & the Bible 43:30 - Hell; Religions & “being right” 50:55 - Creationism & the Trinity 54:08 - Hugh’s opinion on Multiverse; Atheism; Neil Degrasse Tyson 59:28 - Michio Kaku; Alien life / UFOs in Universe? 1:05:56 - Hugh uses physics to explain sin 1:15:54 - Hugh’s early days of belief; the German Atheist story 1:22:27 - Hugh makes Science fit his religion?; Quantum Gravity Theory 1:29:14 - The beauty of science; “Good before God” 1:40:01 - What is love (*nods at Lex Fridman*); linear time vs. dimensional time 1:43:03 - Why did evil like Ghengis Khan happen? 1:46:41 - Judaism vs Christianity comparison; Dead Sea Scrolls 1:56:43 - The origin of Love 2:01:19 - America right now; Steven Pinker & Progress; Birthrate trends 2:09:42 - Christianity growing in 3rd world; the 6th Extinction 2:19:27 - When did Hugh start to think about Alien Life & UFOs 2:22:29 - Alien & UFO evidence; Jacques Vallee; James Fox & 1994 Zimbabwe UFO; Moment of Contact 2:31:53 - Witnesses really saw aliens, Angels & Demons UFO angle; Hugh speaks to Soviets 2:35:36 - The Occult; UFOs & fallen angels 2:39:05 - What UFOs are not; Where UFO incidents most often happen 2:43:14 - Nuclear Base UFO sightings; Scientists & Demons; Hugh destroys Occult board 2:48:49 - When Hugh decided Supernatural Angelic realm was real 2:51:00 - Hugh predicted gov UFO & Alien Disclosures; David Grusch UAP testimony 2:53:54 - Julian: Aliens have figured out things we haven’t; Hugh Grusch UFO theory 2:58:04 - The Ancient Egyptians & Aliens; Ancient Egypt Star Measurement 3:01:18 - Future Human Multiverse Visitations 3:05:27 - Hugh always gives people something to think about ~ Get $150 Off The Eight Sleep Pod Pro Mattress / Mattress Cover (USING CODE: “JULIANDOREY”): https://eight-sleep.ioym.net/trendifier Julian's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/julianddorey ~ Music via Artlist.io ~ Julian Dorey Podcast Episode 167 - Dr. Hugh Ross Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

And so I was able to explain about 99% of what people thought was a UFO. But there was 1% that didn't fall into the category of a natural explanation, secret military activity, or a hoax. Can you explain that 1%? They clearly violate the laws of physics. They're observed going through the atmosphere thousands of miles per hour, yet there's no sonic boom. There's no heat friction trailed behind the, quote, craft. And there's 2,000 cases where they're documented as a crashing into the earth. You go to the crash site, you see a shallow crater. If there's snow, the snow is

melted. If there's vegetation, the vegetation is damaged. But when you go around the crater site, there's no artifacts, there's no debris. It's like when an airplane crashes into the earth, there's lots of debris to recover. With a UFO, there's nothing. But the fact that you got a crater, something real must have done that. Hey guys, I need your help with three quick things. And if you're watching me on Spotify video right now, you can see this timer to my right it is going to be fast number one if you are not already following the show please hit that follow button on spotify or whatever audio platform you're on number two if you're on spotify right now on our show's home page in the description you will see

a link to our spotify podcast clips channel that's right we are posting clips from this podcast every single day on there there is a whole whole library. So go over there and follow. And finally, number three, if you are on Spotify or Apple, please leave a five-star review. It is a huge, huge help to the show. Now let's get to the episode. Dr. Ross, you are the first guy in this new studio right here. Welcome to Hoboken, sir. Well, what a privilege. And where are you coming from in California specifically? Colvina, California is our headquarters. a privilege. And where are you coming from in California specifically? Colvina, California is our headquarters. Colvina, where's that close to?

About 10 miles from Pasadena. Okay, all right. So it's pretty beautiful out there, no? Oh yeah, it is. We get to, I mean, we're on top of a hill. We get to see the San Gabriel Mountains. That's awesome. So good view.

How long you been out there? We've been at that headquarters since 2013, but the ministry's been around since 1985. Gotcha, gotcha. Well, you are a very unique guy with a unique perspective here, and Alessi over here actually was the one who suggested we bring in some months back, because we'll get to your full background and everything today but you are a physicist and also a christian and you kind of marry the two things together which is pretty fascinating to me it's not as common i would say i'm sure there's other people that are the same but there's a lot actually there's a lot yeah really well especially in astrophysics really well because in astrophysics you're looking at the beginning of the universe if there's a beginning there's got to be a beginner

it's that straightforward i think so it all starts somewhere yeah you know it's it's one of those like i love questions like what you've obviously spent your whole life grappling with and actually doing some of the science behind it too but existentialism is something that can be very stressful if you're thinking about it because you're you can get to the point of well what is the meaning of all of it if i don't know the meaning of all of it but it's also something that can give you a little bit of peace in the sense that you realize you're this little speck in this on this big world and this giant universe and you really don't know what's out there but if you don't mind can you just tell me a little bit about when you first got into like space and science itself was this a childhood passion of yours yes

it was started when i was seven years of age that's when our second grade teacher took us on a field trip to the Vancouver Public Library. And I just went straight to the books on physics and astronomy. I said, how many of these books can I take out? They said, the limit is five. So every Saturday I would take out five books on physics and astronomy. I knew from the time I was eight years of age that my future career would be astrophysics. And so were you also growing up in a religious household?

Not at all. Really? Not at all. It was my astrophysics that brought me into the Christian faith. Because what I was doing when I was growing up is I would look at a different sub-discipline of astronomy every year. So one year I'd study stellar astrophysics, another year the interior stars. When I was 16, I looked at cosmology. That's the science of the origin and history of the universe. And at that time there was a debate. Is it a steady state universe? Is it an oscillating universe? Is it a Big Bang universe? But even back then, the evidence was overwhelmingly favoring Big Bang.

And I said, if it's Big Bang, the universe has to have a beginning. If there's a beginning, there has to be a beginner, a cosmic beginner. I had no idea how to find the cosmic beginner. I thought, well, I'm going to read the great philosophers. What's better than a well-marbled ribeye sizzling on the barbecue? A well-marbled ribeye sizzling on the barbecue? A well-marbled ribeye sizzling on the barbecue that was carefully selected by an Instacart shopper and delivered to your door. A well-marbled ribeye you ordered without even leaving the kiddie pool. Whatever groceries your summer calls for, Instacart has you covered.

Download the Instacart app and enjoy $0 delivery fees on your first three orders. Service fees, exclusions, and terms apply. Instacart. Grocer $0 delivery fees on your first three orders. Service fees, exclusions, and terms apply. Instacart, groceries that over-deliver. So I read Immanuel Kant's Critique of Pure Reason. I read some of Rene Descartes and recognized they didn't have the right concepts of space and time. How so? Well, I mean, you've got Immanuel Kant. What he did is he took the cosmological arguments for God that Aquinas had developed, because I've read some of Aquinas. And it's like he took all of his arguments and chopped them up into nine pieces and claimed that each piece by itself was inadequate. And I said, well, of course,

you only took a small piece. You put all nine together, you got a much more compelling argument. And he had this idea that we can only get information through the senses. And when I read his critique of pure reason, it says this doesn't hang together. There's a lot of things that seem self-contradictory. And that's when I went to a high school that was filled with immigrants, mainly Asian immigrants. And so when they heard about my trying to find the cosmic beginner, they said, hey, look at Hinduism, look at Buddhism, look at Islam. So I began to go through those books.

And when I tell people I didn't really get to know Christians until I showed up at Caltech, I did get to see two Christians from 30 feet away when I was 11 years of age. And these were two businessmen that came into our public school, put a couple of boxes on our teacher's desk and left. But in those boxes were Gideon Bibles. So I started reading a Gideon Bible when I was 17 and recognized right away how different it was. It was clear. It was direct. It commanded objective testing. And I'd been taught the scientific method in every grade that I went through my Canadian public education.

And I was stunned by the fact that when you go through the Bible's creation text, it's following the scientific method. Now, I was naive. I didn't realize that that was the origin of the scientific method. The scientific method came out of Reformation theology, where they went through the creation text and they saw this testing method and began to apply it to the real world. Can you expand upon that a little bit? I don't know if I'm following that. Well for example, the scientific method says don't even try to interpret and you first establish the frame of reference, the point of view of what you're trying to investigate. Step two, you want to establish the starting conditions,

the initial conditions of your experiment or your set of observations. Then you observe what's happening, develop a chronology, determine what's happening, when, where, and what order. Then you want to look at the final conditions and see if they're different from the starting conditions. And only then do you make an hypothesis. Then you want to test that hypothesis with further experiments, observations, or in the case of a book, look at alternate texts. That's something else that struck me about the Bible,

is instead of one or two major texts on creation and science, there are over two dozen. The Bible, after all, is 66 different books written by 39 different authors. So it says I'm going to test what I see on the first page with what I see in the other creation texts. And I was prepared to chuck the Bible if I could find a provable error or contradiction. I spent 18 months trying to find a provable error or contradiction. I did find many passages I didn't understand, but after 18 months I couldn't find a single provable error or contradiction. Not one? Not one on science, history, geography.

And in the process I found over 100 places where the Bible had accurately predicted a future scientific discovery. Can you give an example of that? Well, I mean, I was looking at Big Bang cosmology, and what struck me about the Bible is it said that the universe has a beginning, and it includes a beginning of space and time itself, and that this God was active before time even existed. And that was the same time when physicists in Britain and South Africa were developing the first of the space-time theorems, which basically proved that space and time have a beginning. So I says, hey, the Bible got that right. It also says that the laws of physics have never changed. And I said, that's something

astronomers have proven over decades, is that there's no change in the laws of physics have never changed. And I said, that's something astronomers have proven over decades, is that there's no change in the laws of physics anywhere in the universe at any time in the past history. Where does it say that? I'm definitely not as familiar with the text as you are. But like what? Well, for example, you've got Jeremiah 33, where God is speaking to the Jews and say,

you're a double-minded people. You change your mind all the time. But I'm a God that's immutable. I don't change. As proof, look to the laws that govern the heavens and the earth. As they have never changed, I have not changed. And you get it in the New Testament. The book of Romans talks about how there's this pervasive law of decay,

what we physicists would call the second law of thermodynamics, and basically makes the point that this law of decay remains in effect from the beginning of the universe until evil is eradicated and removed from God's creation. I said, well that's something that's clearly true. We can measure the second law of thermodynamics in all these distant stars and galaxies. It's not changed. And I found 11 texts that talk about the expansion of the universe, how God stretches out the heavens, and does so in 11 different texts with six different authors,

and uses three different Hebrew verb forms to describe it and I says that's the expansion of the universe hmm so you know those things and also noticing that the order of events for the creation in Genesis 1 were all in the correct sequence everything else I read in other holy books it got the the order wrong. It got the events wrong. Like what? Well, for example, the Quran got wrong about that, in your opinion. Well, the Quran's got three creation texts, but one of them says that the stars are closer to us than the planets. And even with naked eye observations, you know that's not correct. The stars have to be more distant than the planets. And then when I looked at the Hindu Vedas, it said that the universe reincarnates.

It goes through a beginning and then an ending. But it says there's 4.32 billion years between one beginning of the universe and the subsequent beginning. And I recognized, well, wait a minute, there's not enough entropy, there's not enough decay going on in the universe for there to be a possibility of a mechanical mechanism to rebound the universe. And also, I knew the 4.32 billion couldn't possibly be right. The universe is clearly older than 4.32 billion years. So that's how I treated the other holy books. I would read them until I found several provable errors.

I says, okay, this is not from God. It's from a human source. The other thing that struck me about the Bible is the only holy book I picked up that had what I would call transcendent doctrines, teachings about God and the way he works with his creation that can't be understood within length, width, height, and time. Those are the dimensions we humans experience. I took a course on extra-dimensional mathematics and the professor made the point, you can only visualize phenomena

in the dimensions you experience, but the Bible talks about God being one essence, having one mind, manifested in three persons. That doesn't work in force based on dimensions, but you can make it work if you allow God to have access to other dimensions. And the Bible also says that God predetermines every thought, word, and action that every human being has ever performed. And yet it says we are free will beings. We're responsible for every word, thought, and action. Again, that's something you can't visualize within length, width, height, and time. But one of the books I wrote, Beyond the Cosmos, I show you three different ways you can have both simultaneously true if we allow God to move and operate in 11

space-time dimensions. And you say, well, where did you get that from? We know from particle physics there's got to be another six tiny space dimensions to accompany the three big ones. So clearly the Creator is bigger than that. And so just allowing God to be as big as what the new physics shows us, actually you can demonstrate that these things that people thought were contradictions are resolvable paradoxes. But also told me this message couldn't come from a human source. It contains teachings that can't be visualized from the human perspective it has to come from a being that experiences more dimensionality than we experience so that's what happened to me between 17 and 19 at age 19 I said there's no doubt in my mind this has to

be the word from the creator of the universe what would it take for you to come off that opinion interesting you bring that up because that was the subject of a debate i had with peter atkins he's a british chemist we had to read his textbooks he's written multiple textbooks on chemistry and he's also with the british humanist. So I was in London, England a few years ago and did a debate with Peter Atkins on does science support the existence of God? The moderator of the debate went to me and says, Hugh, what scientific discoveries would it take

for you to abandon your Christian faith and join Peter Atkins as an atheist? And I says, well, if you were to prove to me beyond any shadow of doubt that the universe did not have a beginning, that it was eternal, that would be catastrophic to my Christian faith. And likewise, if we were to prove that we human beings are no different from the other animals, that there's nothing special about human beings. That would be catastrophic to my Christian faith. Or if you'd have proved that Jesus did not rise bodily from the dead, that would be catastrophic

to my Christian faith." Then the moderator turned to Peter and said, well, how about you? What would it take for you to abandon your atheism and believe in God and to join you. And he said, well, maybe if Jesus appeared to me physically right in front of me and I could touch him, maybe that would, and he said, no, no, that wouldn't work. I would think I was having a delusion. Bottom line, and this is a debate you can watch on YouTube, half a million people have seen it.

He basically says, there's nothing that would ever change my mind. There's no discovery, nothing in science that would ever persuade him. And he critiqued me for a whole hour previous to that, saying, you have to base your theology on testable science. I was prepared to do it, but he wasn't. Yeah, that's interesting. That does seem a little bit hypocritical that he couldn't find one way to see if he could possibly, I don't know, convert or something. But it's fascinating to me that there's a lot to unpack in what you said there, and I don't, I didn't want to get too lost in the weeds. I wanted you to express that whole thing, just to be clear where I stand on stuff for this conversation. I was raised Catholic. I'm not Catholic, though. I just don't really appreciate some of the things

going on in that church. I have my own relationship with what's going on, and I'm pretty comfortable with that, but I think about that a lot. I do think that there has to be something at the beginning. There has to be some form of creation. I don't think here in humanity we should have the, or we could reasonably have the opinion to know where that is, how maybe the better way to put that is how many layers away that is if it's one layer which probably isn't the case or it's numbers we can't think about layers and you know i'm constantly challenging where science is going to break through on things and give me new ideas that maybe i'm like oh that could make sense or oh that could explain some unexplainable things.

But I'm very conscious of the fact that I don't know. There's nothing more than, no pun intended here, but like faith that I could put in something to be able to say, aha, that's where it is. But when I look at, to go back to some of the things you were saying on the text, in theory, I think I followed what you meant about testing with the scientific method and being able to explain so many things in there. And I don't want to get in the trap of like just being a skeptic and picking apart every little thing. But like, how could you not, as a scientist, challenge, just say the physics of the stories of Jesus Christ, walking on water, changing water into wine, being someone who rose from the dead?

I mean I've heard you speak in other forms and you talk about with other things. Oh, that couldn't happen because it defies the law of physics. And then I look at just examples like that. I look at examples like even potentially Noah's Ark. That's less of a physics example, I guess, but things like that. And I'm like, well, will these defy either common sense and or physics or both? Well, if Jesus is who he says he is, namely the one that created the universe, a member of the triune God, we've got science that tells us that space and time were created, matter and energy were created. It's like if there is a God that can bring into existence the entire physical universe,

I'm okay with him walking on water. I mean, he clearly demonstrated in the creation of the universe that he's not subject to the physics of the universe. He can choose to be, and that's what Jesus did. Sometimes he would submit himself to the laws of physics. Other times he would defy the laws of physics, basically proving to people, look, I'm not just a human being. I'm the one that created everything. Guess what, everybody? It is that time of year again. Football season is officially upon us, and you know what that means. It is time to place those bets. As a bettor, you demand perfection, and MyBookie delivers.

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app. Upon doing so, you can use the promo code DORY, D-O-R-E-Y, on a deposit of $50 or more to get up to $200 injected instantly right into your account. Once again, click that link below and use the promo code DORY, D-O-R-E-Y, on your first $50 deposit or more and get cash quick. How far back do you think history goes? Human history. Human history? Well, the best scientific dating i've seen for the origin

of humanity puts humanity at about 150 000 plus or minus 150 000 years ago i mean there's a window where we don't have good radiometric dating tools you can use carbon 14 to say that humans have been here at least 40 000 years but the next radiometric tool you don't pick up until about 250,000 years ago. So there's that window where all you have are subjective methods. Now I share with people that the Bible actually gives you a more precise measurement. It's not accurate, but Genesis 2 says that God created Adam and Eve when four known rivers come close together. And you can look at a map.

The only place those four rivers come together is in the southeastern portion of the Persian Gulf, which today is 200 feet underwater. But during the last ice age, it would have been above water because during the last ice age, the sea levels were like 390 feet lower so that tells me that God created Adam and Eve sometime between 13,000 and 130 thousand years ago and We know from carbon 14 that hey, it's at least 40,000 so somewhere between 40 and 130 thousand years ago you got the

origin of humanity I do find it interesting that the scientific date agrees with the biblical date well we've had extinctions though since then well there's been mass extinctions way before humanity yes but after based on the years you're giving me there there's been things after that as well. Well, I mean, yes, since humans have existed here, roughly 4,000 mammal species have gone extinct. I mean, there were about a little more than 8,000 when the first humans were here. Today, there's only 4,000. I mean, it's an argument I use to say that you cannot explain the history of life naturalistically because you've got 4,000 mammal species disappearing, literally half the total number.

Not a single new one has showed up. But I find that consistent with the Bible because it says for six days God created. On the seventh day he stopped creating. When did the seventh day begin? It began when God created the first woman. So since then, God's been at rest. He's ceased from his work of creation. He's focusing on his work of redemption, bringing people free from their sin and evil.

Is there a possibility to you that there could be, you know, like I think about like multiverse theory and things like that a lot, which again, these are theoretical physics, right? They're not, we can't say, oh, that definitely happens, or that's what it is. But could there be like possibilities in your mind that there's some form of higher power that holds power over our little part of the universe right here but it exists not to put like too much of a dumb visual on it but it exists playing a video game in another dimension somewhere else and and that's what controls what we do well we know other space-time dimensions must exist mean, in order to get life in the universe, there has to be a cosmic inflation event

when the universe is 10 to the minus 35 seconds old. And what I find interesting is that the inflation event has to be fine-tuned to get life. You need to have the timing just right, the type of inflation has to be just right. But if you've got an inflationary Big Bang universe, at that moment, 10 to the minus 35 seconds, you get the proliferation of a lot of space-time realms. You know, they're lifeless except for the one we're in. However, I remember debating Victor Stenger, the particle physicist at the International Skeptic Society,

and he said, hey, all this fine-tuning evidence you're bringing up that the universe has to be exquisitely designed, what have we got different physics? I says, oh, you must be talking about the angelic realm. According to Christianity, God created at least two distinct species of intelligent life, one that's subject to the laws of physics of the universe and the angels who are not subject to the laws of physics of the universe and the angels who are not subject to the laws of physics of the universe so

yes from a Christian perspective some kind of multiverse has to exist but I find it interesting that there are atheistic multiverse models and their Christian multiverse models and it's, we can actually marshal science to test which one better explains reality. And how do we do that? Well, I mean, the very fact that the inflation event has to be fine-tuned tells us that this isn't just a random accident. I mean, you have to have extraordinary fine-tuning in order to get life. I mean, the universe for example, it's total mass. Change it by the tiniest amount, you get a different periodic table, and you don't have any possibility for life. And so a number of physicists,

many of whom are not believers at all, have commented what a miracle it is that we live in a cosmos where you got both carbon and oxygen and roughly equal amounts But the fine-tuning you need to get such a universe is just mind-blowing and it's like this is not something That's simply a random accident. There's a mind behind this that wanted the universe to have the capability of housing human life You say well isn't it all because that's what victor stinger said in this thing it's a huge waste look how big the universe is says make it the tiniest bit smaller there'd be no possibility for life anywhere in the universe it's got to be exactly the size that it is and the mass that it is and the age that it is well how do you explain things

like evolution then and how and how different creatures, including us, have evolved over time? Which, I guess that science has been around for what, like 160 years? Darwin, roughly, when he did that, and it's been developed since then? Well, I mean, the basic definition of evolution is things change with time. And that's not a theologically significant statement. I mean, everybody believes things have changed with time. And that's not a theologically significant statement. I mean, everybody believes things have changed with time. Now, I believe that life has been here for 3.825 billion years. I believe that it started off very simple and has changed to become complex. The real debate is, how do the changes occur? Do they occur

through natural selection, mutations, gene exchange, epigenetics? And regardless of where you stand philosophically, those processes do operate. The big question is are they adequate to explain the entire history of life? And I'm on record as saying no. there has to be supernatural intervention in addition to those four mechanisms to explain the mass speciation events that follow after all the mass extinction events. You actually see that in the Bible, Psalm 104. It's a history of all life to die off, but God recreates and renews the face of the earth. And from an

astronomy's perspective, what amazes me is that the mass extinction events and the mass speciation events occur at just the right level and the right timing to perfectly compensate for the increasing brightness of the sun. Because the sun gets brighter and brighter as it continues to fuse hydrogen into helium, and life can only tolerate about a 1% change in the brightness of the Sun. But here you've got this God that removes life from planet Earth, as much as 95% of all species, replaces it with millions of new species, where those new species remove greenhouse gases at a more efficient rate than the old species. So as the sun is getting brighter and brighter and brighter, we have this infusion of life that pulls greenhouse gases out of the atmosphere so that the temperature on the surface of

the Earth remains ideal for life throughout that whole 3.825 billion years. And I've spoken to scientists about this and say, you know, only a God that knows the future physics of the earth, the sun and the moon would know which life to remove and which new life to replace that old life with. And that has to be done about every 30 to 35 million years. So, I'm trying to tie this into, like, theology, though, like in my head as you're talking, and how it relates to Christianity, and which the concept of that obviously ties to differentiating it from Judaism with the New Testament, which features Jesus, who's this messianic figure. He's a messiah who... Make instant deposits or same-day withdrawals. Download the BetMGM Ontario app today. Visit BetMGM.com for terms and conditions. 19 plus to wager Ontario only.

Please gamble responsibly. If you have questions or concerns about gambling or someone close to you, please contact Connex Ontario at 1-866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor free of charge. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming Ontario. Comes as the son of God and tells people how things are. And then people, after he dies and is risen, people are converted to this faith that follows specifically the teaching through him because he was the extension of God to come here to earth. What I can't really make sense of there is why – like, we know Jesus of Nazareth was a historical figure. That's a fact.

It's proven. Right. That's not up for debate. But the – to me, I look at stories and we all know stories run the world. The way you can draw someone in is by being able to describe and put them there, to take them through how things happen. And you look at texts like the Bible, you look at texts like the Torah, which is part of the Bible, and the Quran, like there's a lot

of amazing teachings in there. There's a lot of things that I think if people follow some of the goodness within there for their fellow man, they're going to live a fulfilled life where they're treating other people the way they want to be treated and and provided that's a good way to treat people and you know they they have some real peace but i don't know that there's that there couldn't be other like where i get hung up is that there couldn't be other explanations for how things are when you do have a text that does feature a lot of stories that are just that they're they're stories they're they're passed down they're more legend than actual fact are there things in there that that are historically tied like we said yes but you know if i tell you a story right now this is just

how humanity works if i sit here and i tell you a story of whatever and you hear it statistically speaking the next time you go to describe this to somebody, there's going to be a small percentage of it that changes. And then they're going to describe it to someone else, and a small percentage of that changes. And then so on and so on and so on. And so when I see a text that was written in the years after Christ, and you have all these stories that some obviously existed before then, but they were written down in these hundreds of years afterwards and passed from person to person, letters, etc. It's very hard for me, and again, not trying to be like a skeptic on like, oh, you shouldn't believe or anything like that, but it's very hard for me to make the leap and say, okay, all humans do

change things as things happen in a line but not these ones they got it all right like how do you like i could buy that there's themes in there that that speak to humanity and speak to maybe the science behind humanity that makes sense but how do you rectify that with human error well jesus told his disciples don't worry about trying to remember everything you've seen me do the holy spirit will bring it to mind and notice there are four gospels not one but four written by four different uh you know individuals some of them weren't even part of you know luke wasn't even part of the disciples but what's interesting is when you look at those four gospel accounts, they're totally consistent.

They're also recently written after the events. I mean, we're talking 100 years or less. And so if there was inconsistencies, people would have spotted it right away. Now, with the Quran, you're talking several hundred years between the events and when it got recorded as writing. The Bible is different and moreover we have thousands of manuscripts that date very early and so you know people have pointed out we do believe the Punic Wars which described the battles between Carthage and Rome. It's based on only five manuscripts,

and the earliest manuscripts are nine centuries from the actual events, and yet we believe that history. Fair point. With the New Testament, you've got more than 10,000 manuscripts that date within just a few centuries or less of the actual events, and they're completely consistent. And it was Paul who said, the Christian faith rises or stands

on the bodily resurrection of Jesus from the dead. And so I think that's the core. Is that an historical fact or is it something we can doubt? And I remember reading, this is when I was still a teenager, it's like there were three lawyers in Europe who were skeptics and said, we're going to try the historical case for the bodily resurrection of Jesus from the dead, just like we would treat a court case. And they wound up concluding that the historical evidence for the bodily resurrection of Jesus from the dead was stronger than the evidence that Napoleon was defeated at Waterloo. How did they figure that?

Well, they basically went through the historical evidence saying, okay, what we do in a court is we say, okay, here's a story. Is there an alternate possibility? It's kind of like what you do when you're on a jury. You know, if there's reasonable doubt that the story could be replaced by an alternate story, you're compelled to say, you know, we can't find the defendant guilty. But if there's no other way to explain it other than the fact that he is guilty, then you charge him with being guilty. And so people looked at things and said, okay, let's assume that Jesus was not raised bodily from the dead. Well, how do we explain the empty tomb?

They say, well, maybe the Jewish leaders stole the body. Maybe the Romans stole the body. And they said, that's not reasonable because both Rome and the Jewish leaders wanted to wipe out Christianity. All they had to do to put the Christian faith to the death is produce the body of Jesus. That would have been the end of Christianity. They couldn't produce the body. And then they said, well, maybe we'll concoct the story that the disciples stole the body. Well, the problem with that is the Jewish leaders went to Pilate and said, you know, this man claimed he'll rise from the dead after three days.

We want a Roman seal. And so he said, Pilate said, hey, you want a Roman seal? Fine. And they said, we also want a Roman guard. And so the text records that there was a cohort of Roman soldiers that guarded this sealed tomb Well, if you know anything about Roman history when you put a cohort to guard a sealed tomb the penalty for allowing the seal to be broken is you're being crucified upside down and These cohort guard soldiers were trained for two years to defend against all odds 10 square meters around each man. So the idea that 11 disciples who were not militarily trained, didn't have weapons, could overcome a Roman cohort, that makes no historical sense. So that's basically how these lawyers looked at it. They said, let's look at all alternate possibilities and

basically demonstrate that none of them are possible. Therefore this man must have rose bodily from the dead. They also noted there were over 500 eyewitnesses to the resurrected Jesus Christ. So how do you deal with 500 contemporary witnesses all saying, hey, we saw this? And how do you explain the fact that within just a few weeks, over half the population of Jerusalem became Christians? It's because they could see the evidence right there in front of them. And then the fact that Christianity spread throughout the Roman Empire as fast as it did. Again, the historical case was just too

strong for people to deny the facts. And you got the disciples performing miracles after the resurrection, and the Jewish leaders making the comment, we cannot deny these miracles. They are real miracles. And so this explains the rapid growth of the Christian faith. And numerous scholars have written books on the resurrection. I mean, one I'm familiar with, Gary Habermas, he's in the process of writing 5,000 pages on the historical evidence for the bodily resurrection of Jesus from the dead. He says there's actually that much evidence. No one has ever accumulated all of it. He says, I want to do that. And so he's putting out this multi-volume set

where he actually records the sum total of the evidence and he's also putting in that the numerous debates he's had with the atheists and he says all I'm going to do here he's got a chapter there where he basically says

these are the points that my atheist debaters concede the very points they concede by itself is evidence that Jesus rose bodily from the dead. So that's how compelling the case is. And I remember looking at that again in my teenage years and saying, I can't deny this. The other thing that impressed me was the fact that this man, of Nazareth no one could point any sin on his life I remember what impressed me reading the gospel accounts he's speaking to a large audience says can any of you accuse me of any sin or fault his mother is in the audience his brothers are in the audience his sisters are in the audience

I mean there's no way I could say to a public audience with my mother sitting there, I've never done anything wrong. My mother would immediately raise her hand and say, wait a minute. Yeah, I mean, my head does go to, but which of these things happened? Which of them didn't? You know, if there is... Because, like, the thing I don't want to do is when you look at the history of the man Jesus Christ who lived, he's a very good guy. Yes. Very good guy. And nobody denies that. Yeah.

I mean, this guy, he took care of poor people. He had great empathy. He was a leader but not a loudmouth leader. He was someone who wore normal clothes. He didn't have shining armor. He was a relatable guy, very relatable guy. And I think that that's a beautiful thing. And in some ways, if there's a prophetic idea to that, then I think that that's great for people to follow that example. But when I look at it, it's just very hard for me, looking at stories and how things change to get past that. Because like, I look at,

I look at things like, you know, we're sitting not far right now from ground zero in New York City. It's less than like a mile from where we're sitting right now. And that was what, 22 years ago. And yet, yet every second there's people out there distorting the story and changing the story and there's different forms of people putting their faith and what the stories are and so i try to look at things in in life and it's it's it's a great struggle with me with history too with all history not just religious history and everything but with everything like okay what what really happened here is this as it is or is this you know history is written by the victors or history is written and changed over time as we've already laid out

and so i think when you start maybe taking some of the leaps to explain it as possible in a universe where we do have some of these laws, and we do have things that say, well, you know, if you're human, and the implication is that Jesus was not a regular human, he was sent here, but if you're human, you can't rise from the dead. You can't do this. You can't do that. And like, I'd be very curious, though, to see that case that got built. That's very interesting to me, the one you were talking about versus defending Napoleon at Waterloo. That's fascinating, because... Well, there's several books that document that. It's not something that's obscure. So, I mean, you got Josh McDowell writing more than a carpenter, saying, hey, look at the historical case. Again, my friend Gary Habermas, he's actually compiling 5,000 pages of historical evidence,

establishing that Jesus didn't really rise bodily from the dead. I'm also impressed by the fact that when you look at Buddha, he never claimed to be morally perfect. And he obviously had issues. You see that with Muhammad. With Jesus, you got someone that everybody recognizes who is a morally perfect human being. And it's like no one else can make that claim. So it's not just the miracles that perform, as you made the point.

He's obviously a good man, but it's more than that. He's a perfectly good man. There's no fault that anybody can find in him. Not even his mother can point out a fault. So this fellow is morally perfect. What does that say about the individual? And so that to me gives credence that he really is. And the miracles he performed, again,

the Romans and the Jews could not deny that what he was doing were actual miracles. I mean, the people were right there. So this is why people really feel that, you know, the idea that Jesus rose bodily from the dead, it is an historical fact. We can't deny it. But if he rose bodily from the dead, that means he has the power to raise any human he desires bodily from the dead. Basically making the point, we're spiritual beings. We're not just physical. So our life won't end when we spend these few decades here on earth. We're going to continue. But we all get to choose where we want to spend eternity. You can spend eternity with God, or you can spend eternity

where you've got nothing to do with God. It's choice you get to choose but everybody has to choose you know where they want to spend eternity they have to choose in life well in other words you're not just going to disappear after you die you're going to continue living but you get a choice as to where you want to spend eternity. And is that like just heaven and hell? Yeah, exactly. So by that logic, are non-Christians going to hell? Well, if you're an individual and want absolutely nothing to do with God, you hate God, you want nothing to do with Him, God's not going to force you to spend eternity with Him.

You want nothing to do with me? That's fine. That's your choice. I've got a place for you where you won't have any you'll never have to engage me but if you want to spend eternity in a relationship with god he's got a place for you you get to choose the place so what about people who believe in other things like what about islam and stuff like that is that also do they not get to spend eternity there well I've traveled around the world I've spoken to Muslims and Hindus and Buddhists and what I discover is in all of these different religions you do have these underground believers who recognize wait a minute I don't buy everything I've been taught in Hinduism.

I mean, Hinduism basically says the universe was created by millions of gods, and they all got different ideas. You know, I'm going to India next month, but what I'm realizing is that when I deal with Hindus, they realize this doesn't comport with the science I know. The science tells me everything is consistent, everything is harmonious, it really does seem to be a creation from a single mind, not multiple minds but one mind, which I think explains why so many of the Hindu persuasion are now saying wait a minute I need to actually look at the Christian faith.

I remember being in China a few years ago, and I ran into some Buddhists. And I said, tell me, what do you believe? They believed that God was a trinity. They believed that salvation was by grace alone, not by works. They believed that Jesus was the way for eternal life. And I said, I was well aware a lot of Buddhists syncretize their faith, but it's like, they believe the basics. But that's just a subset of them.

That's not, there's plenty who don't. And they're probably, if they're capturing the tenets of what their religion teaches, which, again, there's people who bastardize religion and use it for bad reasons throughout history, but a lot of people use it for the right reasons and live in peace and treat other – their fellow men and women well. Like I don't – I get a little hung up on the fact that it seems to be – and I think this – in fairness, this isn't just a Christianity thing. I think this is every religion.

There seems to be the I'm right, you're wrong, and when you're wrong, well, too fucking bad. What's going to happen to you happens to you at the end. And I don't know that I've ever been able to make sense of that. Because I'm like, don't all these religions, aren't they supposed to teach, like, acceptance and that other people have other backgrounds? Well, one thing all religions have roughly in common there's a morality i mean we talk about the 10 commandments in judaism and what you see in the bible is that god has written his moral law on the heart of every human being so i'm not at all surprised that all religions basically teach the same moral message but the differences are what do you think about God? Who do you think God is? Is God a million different individuals? Is God all by himself,

where there is no Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? In that case, you've got to question, where does love come from? If God is all by himself, who does he love before he creates? I mean, when I talk to Muslims, I say your mantra is that nothing is greater than God. But because you believe that God is a single person, he is forced to create in order to experience love. Whereas in Christianity, you've got the three persons in a loving relationship with one another. They're expressing love to one another. They're receiving love from one another. Creation is simply a free will choice. They don't need to create. They don't need to create to be fulfilled. But in Judaism and Islam, where they deny the Trinity, the only way God can experience love is to create. And that actually brings God down from what you

claim in your mantra. I'm sorry, you just went through some of that, but can you expand upon that a little bit? I don't understand why. I mean, because first of all, we can't, as a human, we can't think like one God thinks, right? If that is what it is, we cannot think like this not a person this individual right we can't process all of our emotions and our ability to make sense of everything in any way that he can so how do we know that like it couldn't be like because you're talking about the father the son the holy spirit right when you're talking about the three living in right so how do we do we, and for people out there, maybe could you define the Holy Spirit just so that they understand that, but how do we know that that has to be, that trinity and that continuous between the three has to be a way to experience love versus the God that creates

can't experience that without creating that's a really good question no yeah you're asking a great question and i've written an article on our reasons.org website why science only makes sense of god as triune basically making the point that if you're having like the eastern religions gods, it means that science is going to be filled with incongruities and inconsistencies, because you've got multiple minds involved, and they all got different ideas. And so it really needs to come from a single mind. However, if you're looking at Judaism and Islam, where God is a single person, that means that when God is all by himself, there's no possibility of love.

Love by definition is receiving a relationship from another person or expressing something to another person. So you can't have love if all you got is one person. There's got to be other persons. But those gods don't have one person. They have, and we're saying person liberally here, which is fine, but just for people out there keeping track and trying to pick apart all the words – like, the god who only has what he creates, if he has people there who even indirectly, without knowing who he is

or having the right belief about what he is, express a love towards being created by whatever is there. Is that not love? It is. But the problem is that only happens after God creates in Judaism and Islam. Whereas in Christianity, you've got God in a completely fulfilled, loving relationship before that God creates anything at all. But so at the very beginning, when the lights, no lights are on, there's not even darkness. We don't even know what that concept would look like. He already had Jesus and the Holy Spirit?

Jesus and the Holy Spirit have existed for the same eternity that God the Father has. They've always existed. And so they were in relationship with one another before they created anything at all. Can I ask an impossible question right now? Yeah, sure. How did that get created then? I get that all the time. That's Richard Dawkins' favorite way of refuting Christianity, okay?

If you're saying that God created everything, who created God? He's making a category error that we can explain through the space-time theorems. The space-time theorems basically prove that space and time have a beginning. And so everything in the universe, including us human beings, are subject to a single dimension of time that can't be stopped or reversed. And if that's the case, every entity within the universe has to have a beginning, has to have a creation. But if you're talking about a being who's not subject to time, who's able to create space-time dimensions at will, then that doesn't apply. As it says in the Bible, God has got no beginning, no ending,

and that's not possible if he's constrained in time like we are, but he created time. So one way of visualizing it, and this again is in my book Beyond the Cosmos, is, well, God was involved in relationship before he created cosmic time, the time dimension of our universe. Relationship is a temporal phenomenon. He was planning his works of creation. I mean, the Bible says that God began his works of redemption before he created anything at all. So the mind was operating. We humans look at that as temporal experiences. So I'm saying at a minimum, we can think of God before he created anything as being able to experience life in at least the equivalent of two dimensions of time. And if you've got two dimensions of time, say you've got a plane of time, you could have the

timeline of the universe here, and you could have God operating on an infinite number of timelines that never cross or touch the timeline of the universe. As such, he has no beginning, no ending. He is uncreated. That's a simple way of looking at it. But I'm not even sure that God is constrained to spacetime dimensions.

He may have other kinds of dimensions. I mean, we're only told a little bit about God's powers over dimensions in the Bible. We are told that the realm that we will go to after this universe is no more is different dimensions, different physics. So it tells us that God has got the power to create whatever laws of physics he wants, whatever dimensions he wants, and he's not subject to any of them. But that context actually tells us only God can have no beginning and no ending. Everything that's created must have a beginning. Do you think that there could be, let's say that Christian teaching about the beginning and the creator is right. Let's play that. Do you think

there could be things in between that? Like many, many layers? Like many layers that, you know, maybe I could even bring in a term right now and we could discuss it and see what you think. But like, do you think there could be like that simulation theory between us and a God? Do you think there could be other universes that exist

on the same trajectory that we do, where, you know, we're a universe inside of their universe, and so on and so on, all the way up to the chain to where God does exist? Yeah, that's a possibility. It's speculative because our science can only make measurements within the universe in which we exist. So we can't make observations or measurements of the angelic realm, for example. We're constrained to our universe. It was Albert Einstein said that once you've got observers in the universe, you're not going to be able to detect anything beyond that universe. And so we're constrained Now we're free to speculate. I mean, this is a lot of what happened in a debate. I had with Victor Stanger

At the International Skeptic Society. Well, what about what's existing beyond the universe? I find it interesting that the space-time theorems actually gives us some insights on what's possible and not possible Beyond the universe so we can go down that path. And for Christians, they've been debating since the birth of the church, did God create intelligent life on other planets, or did he do it only here on planet Earth? The Bible doesn't put constraints on that. There are some theologians that say, hey, when you read the creation Psalms, it looks like God really enjoys creating. Why would he stop at one planet? He must have created life on multiple planets. Other theologians say, when you read the gospels, notice how frequently Jesus refused to

perform miracles for the crowds. It seems like he only performs those miracles that are necessary to achieve his purpose. Isn't one human species on one planet sufficient to fulfill God's purposes? This debate's been running for 2,000 years. I find it interesting, though, if you come from an atheistic perspective, you're compelled to believe that life is ubiquitous throughout the universe. Do you mind, just for people listening, like we all know the term atheism and everything, but how do you view that definition? Like when you say atheist, do you literally just mean someone who doesn't believe there's any creator and the lights turn off when you die?

Or is it more complex than that? Well, the agnostic will say, I don't know if there is a God. The atheist says, I know for sure there is no God. Got it. So no creator, no God, everything is naturalistic. And yes, when we die, that's just the end of everything for us personally. Right. So do you think we are alone in the universe then?

I was trying to catch your drift on that last answer to see if you were kind of getting there. Well, I'm saying from the Bible's perspective, we could be alone, and we may not be alone. I mean, there's nothing in the Bible that would forbid God from saying, creating dolphins on another planet. What about humans? Well, the only conceivable constraint is what you see in Hebrews 9 and 10, where it says, Jesus, the creator conceivable constraint is what you see in Hebrews 9 and 10, where it says, Jesus, the creator of the universe, died one time, one place, to save all from sin.

Now, we're the only sinners on planet Earth, so that puts no constraint on chimpanzees or dolphins on another planet, because they wouldn't be in the category of being sinners. What did you say there? One, I'm sorry, the definition you had from the Bible. Jesus died in one place? One place, one time for all. But their theologians have argued, you know, there could be an intelligent species like us on another planet, a species that's not morally perfect like us. We need to be delivered from our sin and evil. But if they got high-technology television, they could have been witnesses to Jesus being crucified and raised from the dead.

So I said, even that is not constrained. However, from an astrophysical perspective, I would agree with Neil deGrasse Tyson. When we look out at the universe, it's out to kill us. Once we get beyond planet Earth, I would agree with Neil deGrasse Tyson, when we look out at the universe, it's out to kill us. Once we get beyond planet Earth, everything is very hostile to advanced life. We haven't looked everywhere, but everywhere we've looked,

we only see highly hostile conditions, which suggests, from a scientific perspective, it appears that we are alone. Now, astronomers do argue maybe there could be planets with microbes on them. But beings like us, that's the rare earth doctrine. It really does look like our galaxy, our planet, our star. It's unique. All right, there's a lot to unpack there.

And I'm glad you bring up Neil deGrasse Tyson too. Obviously, some of those opinions he's had are very famous now. Oh, yeah. That was an outtake he did for an interview, but everybody picked up on it. Yeah. But, I mean, he was serious about it. When you do look at the universe, it's out to kill us. Yes.

And one of the things he said before, he had said this when he was on with Joe Rogan, I guess, what, maybe like a few years ago? Something like that? Yeah. He had talked about how he thinks aliens would be wholly uninterested in us. And actually, Michio Kaku, who I had in recently for a podcast. Do you believe in God? Well, I believe in the God of Einstein. He believed in God, but not the God that intervenes in human affairs. It was the God of order, the God of simplicity and elegance. Einstein was asked the question, did the universe have a choice? Is it unique? So universes, you can create universes in an afternoon, but most of them are

unstable. Most of them fall apart. Most of them don't work. Our universe is stable. It works. Everything fits together. And then the question is, what set off the bang? That's what we do for a living. We have the Big Bang Theory up to the point where the universe is going to explode. Why did it explode? We think it was a quantum event. And we are here because we are in the universe which decided to explode.

So Einstein said, was it all an accident and he thought no it could not have been an accident he said something similar he talks about it with like the squirrel theory like oh would you talk to a squirrel the squirrel does not talk back you're not interested and i'm like i don't know if it's that simple though like i i do you know i'm not married to whatever if we've been visited or if they walk among us or how many there are or where they are i'm not married to any of that i mean you can ask alessi before two years ago he's the one that got me into looking at this stuff i never i never really cared so he deserves all the credit absolutely i told you i've said that on a bunch of

podcasts he deserves credit for me looking at ufos stuff like that. But like I'm not married to the fact that, oh, it is definite and all this stuff. If someone says like it's never happened, they've never been here and they show me great evidence. I'm going to be like, well, sorry, James Fox. Like that's just our galaxy here we don't even know our universe here we don't even know how big and dense the other galaxies can get to say nothing of what their quote-unquote laws of physics are or aren't according to ours well we do know the laws of physics are pervasive because we've observed them all over the universe we also know the laws of physics have ever changed there be no life anytime anywhere in the universe so the very fact that we're here is evidence that the laws of physics in the distant

universe are the same as they are here our astronomical measurements prove that because we look at a distant galaxy we can actually measure the laws of physics when the light left that galaxy it's identical that we measure here in the lab now you are right that there could be places we haven't looked, but we've looked in a lot of places. I mean the Star Wars series, it all begins with a galaxy far far away. Yes. Well we've looked at galaxies far far away. None of them match the Milky Way galaxy in their capacity to sustain advanced life. We seem to be living in the only galaxy that's a possible candidate. We're orbiting the only star that we can look at. I mean, my peers have looked at tens of millions

of stars, measured their characteristics. Our star, the sun, has exceptionally stable luminosity. I mean, a book I put out last year called Design to the Core actually showed the luminosity stability of the sun compared to the second best star. The second best star is five times more unstable than our star, the sun. It doesn't eliminate the possibility of animals, but certainly would eliminate the possibility of global high technology human civilization. So we're orbiting, and I tell my friends who are involved in the search for extraterrestrial intelligent life, you're busy looking at these exoplanets. They're hard to measure. Stars are easy to measure. They're bright. We can measure them with significant precision. Don't even bother pointing our radio telescopes at quote a planet

unless it's orbiting the just right star so until you got a star that's a candidate we need to use that telescope time for more valuable purposes real quick to all my discord people out there at the Julian Dory discord is officially live I put the link down in the description below so go hit that join the community and say what's up there's all kinds of features in there and I look forward to hearing from you guys. Let's get it popping.

You know, as a radio astronomer, I'm bothered by how much time is being wasted on this fruitless search for extraterrestrial intelligent life. I'd be fine if they had the star that was the right candidate, but they don't. There is no star we can see that's sufficiently like our star of the sun. That we can see, though. Yeah, we look how far we've looked stars are something that astronomers have been looking at for decades so the fact that over 70 years we've yet to find a star that's sufficiently like the sun to be a candidate that is a significant piece of evidence so that's kind of the theme of what I wrote and designed at the core. It really does

seem, based on our measurements, we're living in a unique super galaxy cluster, the only one we found that's a candidate for advanced life. We're living in the only galaxy cluster, the only galaxy. We're living on the only arm of our galaxy where it's possible. We're living in a special bubble within that arm. We have the local fluff, which has unique design features for our advanced life. And we're in a time window within that local fluff where human civilization is possible. And even with our star, the sun, there's a very narrow time window in the history of our sun where global human civilization is possible i mean if you want a bad dream about three million years from now the sun's going to be too bright for any human life to be possible so i wouldn't

make any investment plans past three million years i wasn't planning on it. But do you... Well, that's another thing. How do you rectify... What's the word I'm looking for here? How do you rectify destruction, evil, and then even on the simplest level, like, sin with God? And this isn't a question even for a scientist. This is just a regular question with any religion. No, I think it's very much for a scientist. Really? Yeah, because one of the books I wrote, Why the Universe is the Way It Is, is basically looking at the laws of physics and making the point that each of those fundamental laws of physics is exquisitely designed to be a

tool in the Creator's hand to eradicate all evil and suffering. So if you were to change electromagnetism ever so slightly, it would mess it up. Same thing with thermodynamics. Same thing with gravity. Same thing with a strong and weak nuclear force. And so a lot of theoretical physicists, they look at these fundamental forces of physics from a purity physical perspective. I say, yes, I agree with you on all that. You mentioned, you know, Machi Okaku. He's done some books on that whole subject. So there's another thing you've overlooked.

It has a spiritual purpose, not just a physical purpose, but a spiritual purpose. And you see this in the Bible. The moment that evil has been eradicated, the universe will have fulfilled its purpose. God's going to replace it with a brand new creation. And in that creation, there's no thermodynamics. There's no gravity. There's no electromagnetism. None of those forces of physics are necessary anymore, because evil will no longer be a factor. Do you think that that is a... Do you think that that could be like God's home is a place on a galaxy far, far away?

Or is it a thing that operates, I don't know if this is the right word here, but existentially outside of... Yeah, I think he created the universe to be a home for us. It's not his home, it's our home. And he's put us in the universe, and he's working out the eradication of evil and suffering. And when that happens, the universe will fulfill this purpose. As he spoke it into existence, he'll speak it out of existence. And he's promised that we'll have an opportunity to go to a far, far better place.

I mean, the last two chapters of the Bible talk about the new creation, and boy, it sure sounds wonderful. Yeah, yeah, no doubt about that. I mean, I don't think there's, when we have these arguments, especially when you look at, like, some of the ones you've been referring to that you've taken part in, where it's like a believer versus an atheist. I almost get disappointed in how some of those go because it turns into a fight over I'm right and you're right or I'm right or you're wrong, that kind of thing. life in a good way you know i've never subscribed to the belief that when when the lights go out they go out which is how you define what atheists believe and everything you know we have so many stories of people who have had some sort of experience upon dying and then coming back so

we don't know what happens because obviously people aren't dead long enough for really things to i guess progress all the way. But we know like their lights didn't go out. Some type of spirit within them when they were legally dead and there's no pulse existed on another plane. in thinking that, okay, if I do good here, regardless of what I believe or what I subscribe to or don't, I can die at peace knowing that what happens next, my good deeds in some way, and I don't know if I'm getting the karma here, but like they will come back around for me. And that's, and I want to be clear, that's not why I do good deeds. I try to be a good person because I think that's just the way to be. I look at people who do evil stuff, and I'm like, that's

terrible. I don't like that. I think there's a lot more good on earth than bad. But I just don't know if it's kind of a diary of the mouth. Well, you're getting at the very core of the Christian message. There's two ways to get to heaven to be with God. One is to be morally perfect. One is to have God deliver you from moral perfection and receive from him moral perfection. And so, as the Bible says, no one is good. We've all done things we're not proud of, things that we recognize. And God is a holy God.

He cannot tolerate the presence of sin. And this is why he sent his son, Jesus Christ, to planet Earth. Jesus basically lived a life of moral perfection so we could see what God really wants us to emulate. It's like, be like Jesus. None of us can do it. But what Jesus did is that he paid the atonement price. Basically said, I will do for you what you can't do for yourself. So he took upon himself the price of all the sins of humanity. And so I tell people, Christianity is basically being willing to receive from Jesus Christ what you can't do for yourself, to trade your moral imperfection for his moral perfection.

And so that's the Christian message. None of us are good. The only way we can be good is to allow the one who is good to take away our sin and lead us into a life of moral perfection. And with that, we can actually fellowship with God the Father. He can't tolerate sin. He's holy. He's perfectly loving. He's perfectly good. And he can only fellowship with creatures that have those same characteristics.

And it's the work of Jesus Christ on the cross that makes it possible for all of humanity. So anybody who says... In fact, an analogy I give is I was at for all of humanity. So anybody who says, in fact, analogy I give is I was at the University of Toronto. There were 13 of us in the graduate class. We're all freshmen graduate students in astronomy and physics. And the professor said, you guys are the cream of the crop. There were some gals there too. He says, we picked you from all of Canada, but none of you are intelligent enough. None of you are able to work hard enough

to get the degree that we want you to get, but we're here to help. We're giving you top priority. You can come into our office anytime. We will help you. Of the 13 of us, only seven of us got the PhD. The other six did not. And I know at least three of those six did not get adequate help from their professors. And so they didn't make it. And what you see in Christianity is nobody can make it without God's help. But he says,

if you come to me for help, I guarantee you'll pass the test. And, you know, what I find interesting the first time I picked up the Bible, here we got Adam and Eve. They've not yet sinned. They've not yet offended God. And what does God do? He allows Satan to come into the Garden of Eden. Who is Satan? The most powerful angel God ever created. The most intelligent angel he ever created. And suddenly it made sense to me. What God is doing with Adam and Eve, and with all of humanity, he's allowing us to be subjected to the most challenging tests in the context of evil. And basically says, if you can pass that most challenging test,

there's nothing else that can dissuade you. But do you believe that, and forgive me if I'm twisting your words here, so correct me if I'm wrong, but do you believe that part of passing that test is that you have to accept Jesus Christ in this lifetime, and if you don't, you don't pass that test? No, I'm putting it in a different way, is that I'm not able, I can't take on Satan. He's way more powerful and intelligent than I am. But Jesus is more intelligent and powerful than Satan. So if I say, hey, do for me what I can't do for myself, basically what God is saying, if you'll come to me for what you can't do for yourself,

I guarantee you'll pass the test. My professors at the University of Toronto didn't give me a guarantee. They just said, if you don't come for us to help University of Toronto didn't give me a guarantee. They just said, if you don't come for us to help, you don't have much of a chance. But they never gave me a guarantee that I would pass if I did get their help. God gives us a guarantee. Come to me for what you can't do for yourself. I guarantee you'll pass the test and you'll enter with me into a realm where evil and suffering will never exist again. Moreover, you won't have to deal with thermodynamics. You won't have to deal with gravity. I mean, that's what makes, as Jesus said, in this world, you'll have tribulation,

but take heart, I've overcome the world. So as long as we're in the universe, we're going to have thermodynamics. If you got thermodynamics, life is not going to be pleasant. Things decay. I mean, I'm a lot older than you are. You can tell there's a lot more decay in my body than there is in your body, but it's going to happen to you too. Thermodynamics is pervasive, but it's there to ensure that the more you sin, the more you offend people, the more damage you do to your own life and other people's lives. And because of thermodynamics, gravity, and electromagnetism, the more work you're going to have to do, the more pain you're going to experience, the more time you'll waste to undo the damage. And you see that right on the third page of the Bible. The moment Adam and Eve had disobeyed God, he said, from now on, you're going to experience more pain and more work.

Until evil is eradicated, then that pain and work will disappear. There'll be new laws of physics. Yeah, I mean, it'd be great if I knew it was all true. And I think, obviously, part of it that you've been defining is that you have to have, like, there is the element of, like, faith. Well, let me correct that, because the faith in Christianity is not the faith you see in other religions. The Bible uses three Hebrew words and one Greek word to define faith. What they all mean is acting upon what you have understood to be true. And so you don't have biblical faith unless you've taken the time to put it to the test and demonstrate that it's true. But neither do you have faith if you don't act upon what you know to be true.

So it's got two components. Test it to prove that it's true, then act upon what you know to be true. So it's got two components. Test it to prove that it's true, then act upon what you know to be true. So I know a lot of scientists, for example, who believe what I do, that there's a God, that it's a God of the Bible, but they're not willing to go to Him to do for them what they can't do for themselves. They're not acting upon what they know to be true. You said that you got... What was the age again where you read, where you found that Bible and read it? I was 17.

Okay. Yeah. So you said like, I think it was 17 to 19, something like that. Yeah, it was an 18 month period where I spent an hour or two a day reading and studying the Bible. Okay. So I'm just doing my little math right here. Obviously you're going into college during this time.

Right. And you're, do I, this time right and you're do i am i correct that you like majored in some sort of science there i got an undergraduate degree in physics and my graduate degrees were in astronomy okay so one of the great things about colleges that sometimes is a problem these days on campuses which we've got to fix a little bit is that there's supposed to be great discussion in these places, right? There's lecture halls, and then a lot of these halls, obviously, there's a back and forth. That's a big part of the education. Did you bring up your theological beliefs a lot in class or with your professors in more the science realm at college?

Well, I was a sophomore in physics when I made a commitment of my life to Jesus Christ. And I'd read enough of the Bible to realize, okay, if I'm going to commit my life to Jesus Christ, receive his gift of redemption from his work on the cross, and put him in charge of my life, make him the boss of my life, take direction from him, part of that is I need to share with other people what he's done for me. So right after I became a Christian, I looked for opportunities to basically share my experience. And I remember my lab partner, he looked at me and said, Hugh, I can tell you want to talk, but I need to talk. Let me talk first.

And he says, I haven't told anybody about this, but I've been going through some serious struggles in my life. I need to talk to somebody about God. Do you know anybody on this campus that knows anything about God? Which led to a four-hour conversation. And so I realized that that's part of the Christian life, is that you need to be willing to be public about your faith. And if you do, God will do amazing things. I mean, I saw what I saw in 1 Peter 3.15.

If you will share sound reasons, good reasons for your faith and hope in Jesus Christ, with gentleness and respect, God will bring people to you that he's prepared to hear and respond to your reasons. I actually wrote a book about this called Always Be Ready, in which I just document that God knows who I am. He knows who these other people are. He puts us together. So I've had multiple opportunities on airplanes and in airports to share my Christian faith. But the interesting thing is the people I talk to, over half of them have doctoral degrees in science or doctoral degrees in theology. And you and I both know that doesn't make up half of the U.S. flying public.

It makes up a very tiny percentage. But God knows who they are. He knows who I am, and he puts us together. I remember being on an airplane once, and I got my name called, and they said, we have to change your seat. And I said, well, I'm flying by myself. You can put me anywhere you want in the airplane. They gave me a first-class seat. So I sit in first class. A gentleman sits down beside me and he says, I never fly first class either, but I'm consulting for Microsoft.

They insisted on flying me first class. Then he said, I'm a quantum physicist. I'm from Germany. I'm an atheist. Who are you? Oh, he said that. He led with that off. He led with that off, right?

That's a social starter right there. Well, I think that's pretty typical of German academics that's because I've met others that kind of that's kind of their way I'll take your word for it so and he said well who are you and I says well I'm not German I'm Canadian I'm not a quantum physicist I'm an astrophysicist I'm not an atheist I'm a a Christian. He said, this is going to be a really interesting flight. So he asked me eight questions over the course of about two and a quarter hours. Then he said, how come you got such well-prepared answers to my questions?

And I said, well, your eight questions are the chapter titles in a book I wrote. He said, I don't believe you. And I said, well, I got a copy of the book in my briefcase. Would you like to look at the table of contents? He says, not only are these the eight, they're in the order in which I asked them. And I said, well, you're not the first scientist that's posed these questions to me. And so I was able to give him a copy of the book.

And as we were walking to baggage claim, he says, I've just calculated the probability that a German quantum physicist is an atheist would be sharing a first class seat with a Canadian Christian astrophysicist. Less than one chance in two billion. So he says, I don't think what happened today is an accident. I don't think so either. Yeah, there are interesting things in the universe. And there could be a lot of different explanations for it.

But it does give me comfort when I see cool things happen timing you know you weren't supposed to be when you see it when you see it hundreds of times i mean one or two times you say a coincidence but i've had these kinds of experiences literally hundreds of times i agree i've had them i would actually say probably thousands of times i feel like. I feel like there's little things that happen several times a week to me. Some days I'll have and there's like multiple things. I'm like, wait a second, how did that line up with that? How could that happen if there is no God? There's got to be a God.

Well, to be clear, like I said up front, I think there has to be some form of creator at the beginning. Right. Right? I think my opinion more is that there's a lot in between that. And like, you know, when I bring people onto this forum, I like to hear a lot of different types of beliefs, right? I like to hear people who think differently than me.

That's kind of the whole point of doing what I do. I'm the same way, by the way. I enjoy talking. Well, clearly. Some of the people, I mean, you came here to talk with a backwards hat kid in Jersey. I love it. But that's a beautiful thing about the world. But I don't view it as my job to challenge every single thing or go at people or try to make a point. But what I do think my job is, is to try to understand where someone comes from. And I'll say, you know, we've been talking for at least over an hour now, like you have a very clear way of not only stating your beliefs,

but having, kind of like you just alluded to with the German scientists, almost like being a little bit prepared for the types of questions people would get. It's happened with a couple questions I've asked today, and I think that's an awesome thing. But I do also, you know, I'm thinking about all the people out there who maybe aren't religious listening to an episode like this, and they may be like, oh, okay, this is going on and on about the Bible and stuff. But when it comes to, you know, the science you've done since your conversion at 17, 18, 19 years old, did you ever feel like through your own human flaw, you had yourself in a position where your science needed to fit your religion rather than let's see what i'm going to find out here from a science perspective and let the chips fall where they may yeah you got to let the chips fall where they may but that's one of the core doctrines of christianity that god reveals himself through two books the book of nature and the book of scripture you know my story is one of the book

of script book of nature bringing me to the book of scripture it was astrophysics first the Bible second and You know, these are two reliable trustworthy revelations that God has given us and so you grow your faith By seeing how they cooperate and so yeah my life There's been many times where the science that I was studying didn't fit what I was seeing in the Bible, but it's like, put that to the test. That's how science operates. We see models where things aren't quite fitting, and we say, well, you know what? We do see a consistency in the universe. Let's see if we can study this in more depth and remove the inconsistency.

And so for me, my Christian walk is one of looking at the things that don't fit, the gaps, the misunderstandings, putting them to a stronger research test. And if the gaps get smaller and less numerous and less problematic, that persuades me I'm on the pathway to truth. If the gaps get bigger and more problematic, with more lack of understanding, I know I've made a wrong move. And this is entirely consistent with what the Bible commands. Everything must be tested. Hold fast to that which proves to be true and good. I mean, you see that repeated multiple times in the Bible. In fact, that's what attracted me about the Bible, was the only holy book that said that. I mean, you look at Mormonism, for example,

and it's based on subjectivism. If you have a warm feeling in the bosom that proves that it's true, the Bible says, no, it's got to be objective. Put things to an objective test. Rest your faith in that which can be proven and you never stop doing that so i'm not finished yet i'm still putting everything to the test so i read the scientific literature i'm looking for things that don't fit the things that don't fit is where the exciting discoveries are going to happen because i'm convinced they will fit if i study it enough and so what drives me is looking at all this stuff that doesn't seem to fit and saying, aha, there's something I can learn here. Let's dive into this

and see what happens. What's an example of that, that maybe you're looking at right now? I'm looking at right now, well, I remember people looking at what they call the quantum gravity era. And this is the fact that the space-time theorems are based on the assumption that the universe has mass and general relativity reliably describes the movements of bodies in the universe. But if you go very early in the history of the universe, and I mean extremely early,

we're talking before 10 to the minus 43 seconds after the cosmic creation event, that's when the universe is so compressed, the energy density so extreme, that quantum mechanics plays just as big a role in governing the dynamics of the universe as gravity does. This is called the quantum gravity era, and people have been saying, well, the quantum space-time fluctuations are big enough, maybe the universe isn't subject to the space-time theorems after all. Maybe the universe isn't as young as 13.8 billion years.

So that's some of the speculation going on. And it's based on the fact, you know, astronomy will never be able to give us any insight on what's happening previous to 10 to the minus 43 seconds i've believed that for decades but i just wrote a paper a few months ago making the point hey we now have these uh gamma ray sources and they're sufficiently far away that they actually give us insight as to what's happening in that very early era of the universe. And basically it is sustaining the space-time theorems.

And we've penetrated a factor of eight into the quantum gravity era and basically demonstrates the quantum space-time fluctuations are not large enough to be a threat to the space-time theorems. Now, I've gotten pushback from atheists saying, well, we've only penetrated this quantum gravity error to a certain degree. We haven't gone all the way back to t equals zero. And I say, well, we never will. That would take, you know, infinite knowledge, infinite energy to be able to do that. But it says, don't you think it's interesting that the more we

push back, the stronger the case we get for what the Bible's been teaching for thousands of years. And so I look at my atheist scientist friends and I say, you're being backed into a smaller and smaller corner of speculation that reaches a point where the realm of speculation now becomes so compressed that you have to recognize, I think I got the wrong model. Well, I think that's also like the beauty of science in and of itself. We look at even guys from recent history in science, and it's like the whole point of their life's work in a way is to eventually be proven wrong, right?

So even look at someone who's been dead for what we term as a while now, like Albert Einstein. He died trying to find the theory of everything, which I think is a beautiful thing. But, you know, his stuff will continue to be proven wrong hundreds of years from now. You know, there will be some things that obviously are correct. Someone one day figured out, was it Isaac Newton figured out gravity? Was that it? Yeah, he came up with a theory of gravity. I mean, Albert Einstein basically said,

hey, if you get past six places of the decimal, there's a new theory that we need to take into account. And maybe when we get to the 40th place of the decimal, we'll find a theory that needs to augment general relativity. And so that's kind of what science does, or at least physics does, is we're trying to measure things to greater and greater precision to try to uncover more and more of the mysteries of the universe. And that's an enterprise that will never end. I don't have to be worried about being unemployed as a physicist because we figured everything out.

That's not going to happen. Right, right. Agreed. So point being, though, humanity is not that old. No. Right. We're relatively recent. Yes. And science in particularly like real breakthroughs, that's really not old as far as like everything works exponentially. So guy man starts by making a wheel somewhere. Eventually it gets to like a Ferrari, but it takes a while to get there. And then suddenly you can get to electric cars pretty quick after getting a Ferrari.

But to me, like what we're going to know as humanity a thousand years from now will make everything that we look at like a thousand years from now the same in that time span. Like they're going to look at us and be like, oh my god, they actually thought this was like a law of physics or this was a law of whatever and you know that's kind of the beauty of it and it's also like very frustrating because you're you're breaking through something to find something great and you know eventually it's it's going to be disproven do you think that there could also be no there's a limit to that. For example, I don't think Newtonian mechanics and electromagnetic theory will be tossed out of the textbooks. I mean, yeah, we got fine-tuned adjustments to those theories. But guess what? We still teach undergraduate physics students Newtonian mechanics, even though we know general relativity makes a tiny adjustment to it. And so scientists make the point that they're making discoveries on the shoulders of scientists that preceded them. And so there's a foundation to science that is secure. It's not going to change. We're not going to be coming up with totally different electromagnetic theories to what James Clerk Maxwell produced. I mean, that's going to remain.

But I wouldn't at all be surprised when we make measurements to 40 places the decimal and say, gee, we need to make a tiny adjustment to general relativity. But we're not going to toss out general relativity. It's still going to be there. I mean, to give you an example, when we send spaceships to the planets in our solar system, we don't even bother with the general relativistic correction. It's too tiny.

We just use Newtonian mechanics. It's more than adequate to get spaceships to Jupiter and Saturn. Right. However, we were going to send them to a galaxy, you know, 10 billion light years away. Now we need to make the general relativistic corrections. Do you think that a similar idea can happen with all religions, though, too? That, yes, there's some historical texts and things like that,

but over time things could be challenged, or facts could change about what we know or able to discover vis-a-vis what those religions teach? Well, for example, I look at Hinduism, and for literally thousands of years People saw this as something that was scientifically viable Once we move into the 20th century, they realize this oscillating universe idea or reincarnating universe idea It's been refuted. It can't be true. And so yeah, that's an example of a major religion that's run into a huge scientific barrier. I mean, that's what fascinated me about Christianity. It's never run into any of those barriers.

The other religions all have. But mainly because they all teach that through some system of good works we can please God. That's where the Bible stands alone, saying no one can be good before God unless God intervenes. That's the big distinction. No one can be good before God unless God intervenes. I'm sorry, I'm trying to understand that in my head a little bit. Can you explain that and also work that against the other religions again there for me? Well, what's unique about the Bible is that it repeatedly says, Old Testament

and New Testament, no human being is morally perfect. We've all gone astray. We've all done things that we know are not right. Our own conscience convicts us that we're not perfect. And yet, if we want a relationship with God, He's holy. He needs to remove our evil and our sin. And this is what Jesus of Nazareth did. He was the creator of the universe. The triune God sent him here to planet earth. He lived amongst us for a few decades, proved that he was morally perfect. He's the only human who's ever lived, who lived a morally perfect life here on planet earth. And then he performed miracles to prove that, hey, I got power over the natural realm. So he repeatedly was demonstrating that he was God. And then he took upon himself the ransom price for all the sins that every human being has ever committed and basically said, hey,

I paid it all for you. If you come to me, I will forgive you of all the offenses you've made against other people and against me. And if you put me in charge of your life, I will send the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit will step by step deliver you from the power of sin and evil. And I think that's something many Christians can testify of, is how, you know, once they've made Jesus the boss of their life, the master of their life, and saying, hey, you know better than I do what's best for me. That's what happened to me when I was 19. I'm saying, it's clear that God knows better than I do what's best for me. It only makes rational sense to put him in charge of my life.

And then to have that Holy Spirit come in and begin to deliver me from things I couldn't deliver myself, and actually experiencing that step by step. I'm not the man today I was 50 years ago. I can see there's been remarkable changes. I see that in my fellow Christian friends. I mean, as it says in 2 Corinthians 4, when you submit your life to the Holy Spirit within you, people can see changes in your life on a day-by-day basis, which is why we Christians can rejoice in the rotten decay of our physical bodies. I mean, my body is decaying, but it decays fairly slowly. It takes several months, a few years before I mean, my body is decaying, but it decays fairly slowly. It takes several months, a few years before I notice, you know what?

I can't do a six-kilometer race like I did when I was 40. My body is decayed. But the wonderful thing about having the Holy Spirit work within you, you get to see your spirit being changed on a much more rapid basis. I enjoy going into rest homes where people are suffering from dementia. You know, they're at the end of their life. But when you sit with them, there's kind of almost a supernatural glow about them. And what I notice when I talk to people who take care of these people, it's like, I want to be in the

same room with them. Even though they don't know my name, it's just being in their presence. There's just kind of a wonderful, loving encounter that you have. And this to me is the privilege about having the Holy Spirit work within you is realizing He's changing me day by day by day and therefore i'm excited about getting old i'm excited about finishing this race because i can see yes my body's decayed but look what's happening in my spirit yeah i mean they always say regardless of religion even you know wisdom does come with age too and there's you know i think everyone or most people i should say certainly like fear death and maybe they fear what can happen along the way are you going to lose some physical abilities i'm sure you can't do all the same things you used to be able to do

and i don't know what that is yet so you'll find out yeah i'll find out. Yeah, I'll find out. But, you know, there is something to, like, never – that's funny because this is kind of the opposite of what you were just saying, but bear with me here. There's something to, you know, have in your mind and your ability to process what's happening to you that is beautiful about humanity. there is that some of the people who kind of lose that at least the reality of who they are and where they are and what's going on but can at least you know observe and see things in their environment you know there's something beautiful about that too i've never i've never looked at it that way to be honest with you because i don't you know that's like an ultimate fear of mine living when i don't have my mind anymore you don't know what that is or what it feels like maybe you wouldn't care if it was happening but like i also think about like my loved ones and stuff like that you know you're talking to them and the lights are on but no one's

home that's that's a tough that's a tough there is someone home the problem is that the brain is kind of like the physical interface for the spirit within you it's like kind of a computer and when the computer fails you're not able to communicate with the outside world you know i've been with people that have been suffering from dementia and i can see the frustration on their faces they know what they want to communicate but the physical interface is not able to get that across but the the love, you can see that's still there. Yeah. I mean, that is kinda... Like you pointed that out earlier, relating it to God, that like, I think it was the first thing you said, like love is the ultimate emotion that you relate to it.

And that's kinda the world. That's what everything is. That's what people chase, it's what people sometimes loathe about themselves too, in a way. there's all kinds of things that go into it. But like, how would you describe it? Like, if I had to ask you in Lex Friedman-esque terms, like, what is love? Like, what do you relate that back to the creator as well, like on the whole? Or is it also a phenomenon that we as humans experience together that the creator creates for us to do? Well, all love does come from the creator. I mean, you're not going to get it from physics and chemistry. Sure. It comes from the creator. And, you know, people can reject the love of the Creator for them though as we receive that

compassion and love from the Creator it gives us a capacity to share that with other people and what I'm really looking forward to in the new creation is that because evil and sin are still here God on purpose constrains us to one time dimension. I mean, if I'm angry at somebody in Germany, chances are I can't do much about it. It's just too far away and it takes too much time to get there. However, the frustration I have when I gave my life to Jesus Christ is realizing when I get to heaven, there's going to be a really long, long line of people who want to have a private conversation with Moses or the Apostle Paul or with Jesus. And hey, my last name is Ross. I'm at the end of the alphabet.

It's going to be a long, long, long wait. But time doesn't exist there, no? Well, it tells us in the new creation there will be no marriages. We won't be in families. we won't be in families, they won't be necessary anymore. I think God's going to deliver us from linear time into geometric time. What do you mean by that? Well, instead of being constrained to a single dimension of time, maybe we can relate to one another in multiple dimensions of time, which means, for example, that God could grant to Moses the capacity to have 10 billion simultaneous private one-on-one office appointments.

That's impossible in this creation. But I mean, that's one of the frustrations I experience as a Christian. There's so many people I want to spend quality time with, and I simply can't do it. The physics doesn't allow it. But in a new creation, and you know, I'm speculating here, maybe God's got a different way of making it happen, but I do see the promise that that restraint will be lifted. And it can be lifted because no one will ever use that power for evil intent ever again. I mean, if God had us in geometric dimensions now, evil would

run out of control. He on purpose, I mean, I look at Adolf Hitler. Thank God he was in only one dimension at a time. Thank God he only lived 56 years. And so, and thank God he was subjected to thermodynamics and electromagnetism. Those all prevented him from killing all the people he Yeah. To take a little sidebar on that topic, though, I think we kind of got at this a little bit earlier, but we got off it. Like, why, how do you figure it, how do you figure it that the God that you believe in, even if he gives us free will, allows something to get as far as an Adolf Hitler or a Genghis Khan or things like that? That's a really good question, because couldn't God have given us a weaker free will? If he'd given us a weaker free will, there wouldn't be that much rebellion and evil being expressed.

But I understand that if God gave us a weaker free will, that would limit the expression of love. God wanted strong love. He wanted his creatures to experience strong love. So he gave us a strong free will so that we'd have the ability to express love at that very high level. And he knew that a lot of people would use their free will for evil intent, but he was willing to take that risk because he wanted a strong, free, and wanted strong love. And so, yeah, I read the scriptures and it says, you know, the majority of people will choose to have nothing to do with God, but God looks at the

minority that's left. And it's going to be a big minority. We're not just talking 1%. It's going to be a significant minority. I think something on the order of a quarter to a third of humanity and the love relationships that they'll express to one another, that God will be able to express to them, and they'll be able to receive from God, is so beyond what we can imagine that it's basically worth everything. I mean, I love that passage in 1 Corinthians 2, where it says, no one can think or imagine how great and wonderful life in the new creation will be. And it's the same apostle Paul that says, you know, every day, do your best to imagine how good it will be and be comforted. No matter what you come up with, it's going to be better than that.

I got to say, you're definitely in peace with all your answers. And I think that a lot of people out there, regardless of what they believe, that is something they're looking for. And I think it's very clear to me in our conversation so far that you've lived your life as a great guy, trying to do good things for other people and express that so gently also in how you talk about your faith. Well, it took time. I mean, it doesn't happen overnight. Sure. And I'm still working on it. I think we always are, right? We are.

You work till the day you die on that. Well, that's kind of the biblical message, too, is you're not perfected until you cross that line. Right. And I love the way Paul puts it. Life is a race. And you're to run that race for all you're worth. And don't be surprised if you're totally exhausted at the end of your life. That's the way race is. But realize you're crossing the line and you're going to get a prize. And so death is something to look forward to, given that you have Jesus

Christ as your Lord and Savior. I mean, so death is basically a huge prize. That's why Paul said, I would rather die than to continue to live. And so I think that's very comforting if you can live your life that way, because you mentioned death can be a terrifying prospect. A lot of people don't even want to think about death, but it's going to happen to all of us. But I love the way Paul puts it, you're crossing the finish line and you're going to be awarded a prize. So it's a great thing to look forward to. Yeah, it's certainly something to live forward to as well. But also within there, this has kind of been something that throughout the day you've said certain things and I wanted to go there, but then you were going on something else, so I didn't.

But, you know, we mentioned some of the main religions in the world. I'm just reminded by you talking about Jesus in there. But the similarities between Judaism and Christianity are like perfectly in line up until the New Testament, obviously, because the Torah is the Old Testament of the Bible. And then the difference between the two is that Christians believe that Christ was the Messiah sent from God here to heal sins, and that was that. The Jews believe that the Messiah still is yet to come. Right. And that that wasn't his. How do you, like, what do your conversations with Jewish people look like?

Well, I mean, I'm in the Los Angeles area, and I teach a class for skeptics on Sundays, and so we get a lot of Jews that come to the class. I have relationships through rabbis, just through people that come to the class, because they take what I say, and they take it back to the rabbi, and the rabbi responds. And so I have dialogues with rabbis I've never met. But what I notice is that they take that stance, is that Jesus did not fulfill all the prophecies in the Old Testament about the Messiah. He only fulfilled a little more than 100 biblical prophecies. There's over 300 in the Old Testament. And, you know, they're looking for a Messiah that fills all of the Old Testament prophecies.

But what I find ironic is that they believe that Elijah comes twice. If Elijah can come twice, why can't the Messiah come twice? And the book of Daniel actually predicts that he would come at two different times. It's in Daniel chapter nine. So it's like, hey, this is part of your Old Testament, but most Jews that I know have not read through the entire Old Testament. And so that's kind of one way I work with Jews is say, you need to read your book, not just passages. And most of them are really thoroughly knowledgeable about the Torah and a lot of the Psalms, but often that's where it stops.

I'm saying there's a lot more to the Tanakh, your holy book, than just those books that you've read. And those are the ones that tell us that Jesus comes twice. First he comes on a donkey. A donkey is a symbol of peace. The last time he comes on a horse where he conquers and Jews are looking for a conquering Messiah. They said that will happen, but it didn't happen 2000 years ago. He came to sacrifice himself to pay for the sins of every human being that ever lived. That was his role.

And you see that in the book of Isaiah, that he would come as a suffering servant, and he would die for us. But if you read the rest of the prophecies, what you see in Daniel and Ezekiel, he will come, and he will actually do away with all sin and evil. He will conquer. But that's a future event. And it says, notice, when you have a Passover, you have an empty chair for Elijah because you believe he will come back. You need to have an empty chair for the Messiah. He's come once already. And hey, aren't you impressed that he fulfilled a hundred prophecies plus in the first coming? What are some of the prophecies? Let's start with this. What are some of the prophecies they say he fulfilled? Like just a highlight, because we're not going to go through 300 of them here. And what are some of the ones that he didn't fulfill of

those other 200 out of the three? Well, it does say in Zechariah that he would be betrayed by one of his own, and he'd be betrayed for 30 pieces of silver, and the pieces of silver would be used to buy a burial place for poor. That all happened. I was particularly impressed before I became a Christian with Psalm 22. Psalm 22 was written by David a thousand years before the event. But if you read Psalm 22, you know, it begins with, My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? It ends with, it is finished. Over the first words Jesus said in the cross, my God, my God, why have you forsaken

me? What was the last word he said? It is finished. But if you read the rest of Psalm 22, it tells how Gentiles would divide up his clothing and they would throw lots to see who would get the clothing. It talks about how the Jewish leaders would mock him. And what really impressed me, Psalm 22 even records the words that they would use in mocking, the same words you see in the Gospels. It also says that he would be crucified. It gives the details of crucifixion. What's significant is those details were given 700 years before crucifixion was even used as a method of execution. So long before crucifixion became a practice.

It's there in detail in Psalm 22. Also said he would have his side pierced, that he would be thirsty. So in great detail, it talks about the experience of Jesus that he would have when he was dying on the cross. And you're saying we know that the book of Psalms was written 700 years before. Well, King David, living 1,000 years before Jesus, wrote that psalm. Psalm 22 shows up in the Dead Sea Scrolls, so that for sure tells us it happened at least 200 years before the events took place.

Can you explain the Dead Sea Scrolls for people that aren't familiar out there? Yeah, there was a cave in the Judean hills back in the 1940s. A shepherd went up there and found some scrolls in some jars. They pulled it out and discovered that these scrolls contained the entire book of Isaiah, included portions of every book of the Old Testament was in there. It was carbon-14 dated to be the 2nd century BC. So that tells us that all this stuff was written beforehand. And what was amazing is when they compared the Dead Sea Scrolls, 2nd century BC, with the oldest Old Testament manuscripts that existed at that time, 9th century AD.

1,100 years between the two sets of scrolls, virtually identical. Just a few tiny errors, none of which had anything to do with the message, but actually documents how carefully the Jews preserved their Tanakh, indicating that they were doing this ever since Moses. And therefore, and we know that these books indeed were in the form that we see, literally at the time that David was writing them, Moses was writing them, etc. Right, so essentially, though, there's a line in the sand there with Jesus' death and resurrection where the two religions end up diverging. It's not like Christianity was invented the next day, but obviously, like, it was invented pretty quickly.

Well, one thing I share with Jews is, you know, you think that the big difference between the two of us, you deny the Trinity, we Christians believe the Trinity. You think we get the doctrine of the Trinity from the New Testament. We don't. We get it from your book. It's in the Old Testament. The book of Isaiah is the book that contains the most detail about the doctrine of the Trinity, not the New Testament. But what I notice about a lot of Jews is they haven't read the book of Isaiah, or they've only read a couple of chapters.

So I say you need to read the entire book. And by the way, the entire book of Isaiah was in the Dead Sea Scrolls. There's a museum in Jerusalem where they actually show you a facsimile of the entire scroll that was found in the Dead Sea Scrolls. There's a museum in Jerusalem where they actually show you a facsimile of the entire scroll that was found in the Dead Sea Scrolls. And it's like, do you think that's an accident? Maybe God wanted that to be preserved so that it can be a testament. It's right there in Jerusalem. So I think you really need to pay attention to what God has preserved. Read the book and see for yourself what it says about God. But it's also just passed down, though, too, in a sense, right? So you have that moment where there's the divide where, you know, you either stay Jewish or become a Christian in that way.

And now we're 2,000 years later plus, and we have the two groups of people. So we have generation upon generation upon generation upon generation, where it goes all the way back. So there's just – it's just kind of like one person's word versus the other over an argument of how many prophecies were fulfilled. So in effect though, what I'm getting at is like they worship the same God. They worship Yahweh, right? So if that's all the same, isn't that, like, isn't it accomplishing pretty much the same thing in your mind that Christianity does, minus the idea that they understand that they don't think that you can have God bring you more perfection. I mean, what you see in modern-day Judaism, the way we please God is we do good works. But the Old Testament is clear. Nobody is good enough.

All of us have sinned and departed from God. And unless God does it for us, we're without hope. And so that's the part of their Old Testament that they're denying. And so they really do worship a different God. It's not the same God. I mean, the God of Christianity is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The God of Judaism is just the Father, all by himself. And I remember, you know, we've debated Jews on podcasts like this,

and say, well, as a Jew, how do you explain the origin of love? And you get dead silence. Jews love to talk, especially Jewish theologians. In fact, I remember we were doing a podcast with two Jewish theologians. We couldn't get a word in edgewise until we asked the question, how do you explain the origin of love? And they were just dead silent. Why are they silent about though? They don't have an answer.

I don't know. If God is all by himself, then, you know, there is no love. The origin of love is placed in, I mean, this I would answer it if I were them, but like the origin of love would be what we alluded to earlier in this conversation, which is he'd be creating things that he could love that could feel affection towards him. I mean, I think that's a beautiful thing. I think that would be— Well, it is, but it's making a point that God had no love until he created.

Whereas in Christianity, God is experiencing love before he creates. He knows what love is. I mean, you got the weird problem in Judaism and Islam is that this God who has had, because by definition, love requires at least two people. You're expressing something to a person and getting something back. If you're all by yourself, there is no love. And so you got this God who's never expressed love, never experienced love, and he creates these creatures that are able to do both. And so God is deficient until he creates, whereas in Christianity, God is never deficient. He's always fulfilled.

But deficient is a human term. It's a human term based on human limitations of the way we think and what we can possibly grasp and concept. Oh, I'm making the point that from a Jewish and Islamic perspective, God is limited and deficient until he creates. Whereas in Christianity, God is never limited. He's never deficient. He's always, he's had, and so it makes sense about the origin of love because a being that expresses love and experiences love can create beings where that love is optimal. Where a being has never had that experience is like, how do you explain this love that we humans have if it comes from a being that never had that experience? So, you know, that's a real challenge to both Judaism and Islam,

and it's a challenge that we use at Reasons to Believe to actually, you know, work with these people, dialogue with them, and say, at least think about this. And the thing I love about Jews, they're very passionate about the Sabbath. So have you ever thought about the purpose of the Sabbath? You stop your employment, and you focus on the most important issues of life. And so you need to think about these things on the Sabbath. It's not just a time where you go to synagogue and you have a special meal. You need to meditate on the most important issues of life. I shared that with my atheist scientist friend saying, you know, in fact, I remember I was talking to several origin of life research scientists saying,

have any of you ever thought about death, the fact that you're going to die? And they said, no, we're having way too much fun doing our science. Have you ever thought about the fact that you're addicted to your scientific research? He says, I've been a scientist. I know it's very, there's something incredibly fulfilling

about making these scientific discoveries. But it's not the most important thing in life. Our life is temporal. We're only here for a few decades. And it's like they admitted, you know what? We're not atheists. We're default atheists. We've never thought about the issues.

And it says, well, that's the principle of the Sabbath. Take time out from your busy work week and focus on the most important issues of life. I share that with Jews and Muslims saying, hey, you have the Sabbath, but on your Sabbath, are you really meditating on the most important issues of life, or are you just going through the rituals? Right. going through the rituals right well i think regardless of of even the religious context of it for taking time alone to yourself or like at peace or or even you know with other people where that's kind of the focus away from the day-to-day the get things done it's it's something

that today's world i'll speak from an american perspective at least, it doesn't, we don't really reward that. We don't encourage that. It's constantly go, go, go, go, go, do this, do that, keep up with everyone else. Well, we live in a country where life is too good. I mean, there's just so bit of a – I feel like we're at a moment in time right now where we are kind of as a society teetering on the goodness of like this country, right? Where people are bitching and moaning over things that are nonsensical in, I'm trying to choose my words carefully here, are nonsensical in the context of the meaning of our lives, right? So this is actually a great argument for organized religion, which I've had my problems with. But, you know, people have put their faith in other things. They've put it in politics. They've put it in objects. They've put it in

things of this earth that don't really carry any meaning whatsoever, other than, you know, what's the next five minutes going to look like for you. And I feel like as society has moved away from more, you know, God themes across the various religions as a whole on the average, we've created more problems in division with each other. We have. And I don't really have a good argument against that? You know, what do you think it is about people that even if they don't believe in or focus as much on a God or a higher meaning, they kind of have to take that energy and put it somewhere, which usually isn't a positive place? Well, I think you're making an excellent point. I mean, people wonder, why is politics such a mess why do the nations in the relationships with one another make so many irrational uh conclusions you know why did Russia invade uh Ukraine it's counter to

their best interests why would China even think about conquering Taiwan it's not going to be something that'll be in their best interests and you know you see it here in America. It's like, look at the people we elect. We're not electing the best people. And you say, okay, what's going on? And I'm saying, if there was no God, and if there was no Satan opposing God, we'd see a lot more rational things going on in human relationships. The fact that things are so messed up is actually proof there's a god there is being opposed by a supernatural evil being otherwise our politics would be a whole lot better relationships amongst people be a whole lot better it's something you see in the bible we don't just wrestle with flesh and blood there's supernatural powers that work to destroy us and we see plenty of evidence of that.

It's like, look at the way human history has played out over the thousands of years. It's been a mess. It wouldn't be like that if it was just us humans and nothing else. It does make me think, now that you put it that way, though, you just said it's always been a mess. I could actually come up with a little bit of a counterpoint to what I said that I just said a minute ago. I couldn't. But like, have you ever seen the work of Dr. Steven Pinker at all? I know the name. Okay. So he's a famous psychologist from Harvard. And his main career claim to fame, I guess, is writing from a statistical standpoint and very black and white, just here's what I see, taking a lot of emotion out of it, the advancement of humanity over time. And his argument that he is backed on with data is that on the average, we are almost always living at the best possible time in human history when you measure it around the whole world, not just here.

When you measure it across like basic things like sustenance, people being able to have shelter, etc., etc. And the big thing that's kind of caught in the middle of this that I think I often forget about and a lot of people do is the thing most of us are using all day every day, which is the internet. And the internet is a beautiful tool in the sense that it can allow you to connect all over the world, but it also sucks in that it allows you to put all your opinions out at the click of a button. And it gives us this very unreal,

from behind a keyboard element to inject ideas and attack other people's ideas that we otherwise would have no idea what they actually think or care. I think you must have been visiting my social media sites. I actually haven't, no. I get insulted hundreds of times a day from people who are atheists, from people who are believers. You're right.

The social media platforms really encourage that. They bring out the worst in us. Because people wouldn't say that to my face, but when they collide, they just blast you. And it's horrifying some of the things they say. Oh, don't read them. Just, you know, stay away from them. If they bother you, just stay away from them. But, you know, because also people are just injecting from behind their keyboard a feeling to make them feel good. And they're usually it's their insecurities upon you, right? Even if maybe sometimes they have a point and their criticism's in a good place, they could deliver it a lot better.

Well, it's a great piece of evidence that human beings are not fundamentally good. So, I mean, what the Bible tells us is that we all fall short of the glory of God. It's right there on the Internet. Right. us that we all fall short of the glory of god it's right there on the internet right but but on the on the greater point there despite the internet kind of revealing our flaws i i think the thing pinker would argue in that i'm thinking right now is that in a way we are we think things are a lot worse than they are because we have access to see all the bad at the click of a button anywhere in this country or in the world at any given moment. And so we tell ourselves, oh my god, this is horrible, this is horrible.

And yet over time, we technically do improve as a species. So if we're leaving God during this time period or whatever, it would fly in the face of my argument a little bit if we are overall better as humanity. But long term, do we put – does that spiral and we put that into – I'm talking about anything that's non-religious, right? And we put that into some of those things. Does that cause humanity to take an enormous step back at some point? It could, I guess. Well, what you do see in human history is that our wealth has been consistently increasing.

Our health has been consistently increasing. Our technology is consistently increasing. But from a biblical perspective, that's exactly what you'd expect God to bring about in the human species, because his goal is to take the good news of salvation through Jesus Christ to all the people groups of the world and he wants to do that relatively quickly that requires health wealth and technology now so those are the good things we're seeing going on

it also poses a threat because the more wealth and technology you have the lower the birth rate and we're actually seeing something in the 21st century that could bring about the collapse of the human species. And that, you know, even here in the United States, the birth rate is already well below the replacement rate. We survive because of immigration. But if you look at places like South Korea, you're looking at one child per woman, which means they're only replacing half of their population. Now, there are people who work on population statistics basically saying the greater the wealth, the greater the health, the greater the technology, the lower the birth rate. If we don't see a drop in wealth and technology, we could see the end of the human species in just a few centuries.

And, but I think God's giving us this wealth and technology so that the Christian message could be sent to all the people, groups of the world. And notice, everywhere you go in the world, Christianity is thriving. That's never happened before in human history. It's now happening today. Wait, wait, wait, hold on. You think it's thriving everywhere while also saying that some of these problems that we're causing, including in this country with birth rate, are happening in populations where people are largely, at least not totally at all, there's all different religions here, but there is a large population of like a Christian background contributing to that. Well, I'm saying what we're seeing for the first time in human history is throughout the world, we're now seeing a significant Christian population. I mean, it began with just the Roman Empire, and now it's spreading. In fact, the

Christian community is growing fastest, not here in North America, not in Western Europe. It's in the third world. This is where you see the fastest growth of the Christian community. Why do you think that is? Well, I think it's because when you get a lot of wealth and technology and good health, you think you don't need God. So what I see, I've been to third world countries, and their hunger for God is way greater than anything I see here in the US. And I think we have the problem. Life is good. And so we don't think we really have a need for religion, don't have a need for God. And also, I think the fact is that in the wealthier parts of the world,

most of the people live in big metropolitan cities. And when you do that, you're cut off from the book of nature. It's the book of nature that God designed to bring people into a relationship with him. I mean, you've got multiple passages in the Bible that heavens declare the glory of God. I've been in some big Asian cities. On a clear night, you heavens declare the glory of God. I've been in some big Asian cities. On a clear night, you can't see a single star. There's so much light and air pollution, the heavens aren't declaring anything. In fact, I remember engaging a student and she says, what's that in the sky? I said, it's the moon. She had never seen the moon that low in the horizon. She's seen it overhead. Oh, shit.

But she's been living in cities where if the moon is low on the horizon, you can't see it. There's just too much light and air pollution. So it's like Abraham could see 15,000 stars. Most people in the US today are only able to see 30 or 40 stars. They can't see the Milky Way. There's too much light pollution also they're cut off from the animals it was the book of job where he says look to the birds they'll teach you look to the beasts of the field they'll take you outside show you through a few pigeons out there i don't know well i think he's i think he's referring to the wild birds and the wild mammals and i make it a point to take members of my family into parts of canada where i know humans haven't been in decades and you get to see how differently the animals behave they want to be with you yeah and so you see these wild animals

they just want to hang with you because they've never been abused by humans. They have no fear of humans. But, hey, when you get into the big cities, yeah, we got animals. We got dogs and cats, but they're domesticated. People are cut off from seeing the testimony of the wild birds and the wild mammals and how God designed them to serve and please a higher species. There's a message there. If these animals were designed to serve and please and relate to a higher species, what about us human beings? Aren't we designed to serve and please and relate to a higher species? And don't you notice that when we abuse these animals they run away from us yes likewise our

sin causes us to run away from god or to pretend he doesn't exist and so we get that lesson from the animals the other thing we notice is when we domesticate them they outperform their wild cousins likewise what i've noticed with human beings, when they dedicate their life to Jesus Christ, they outperform their former self. Their potential is released. These are all lessons we gain. And what I love about the end of the book of Job, God says to Job and his three friends, you've been able to tame all these different birds and mammals. Some are difficult to tame. Some are easy to tame. Goats are easy to tame. Alligators and hippopotami, very difficult to tame. And he says, you humans are the same way. Some of you are easy to tame. Some of them are difficult to tame. But here's

the lesson. It takes a higher being to tame these animals and he says job came to me for the humility he needed to relate to me you three did not so it takes a higher being to bring humility into a proud human heart it's fascinating that you relate it to nature I had I had Dax de Silva in here recently the first time he looked into the eye of a whale, it's a crazy story. He felt that the whale could see exactly through him. It was a moment where whales were being chased by an Icelandic or a Norwegian whaler, and they shot the mother so that the bulls would come to her rescue. And that bull, as it was going to be chased, looked into Paul and his crew on a small zodiac.

It knew the difference between the whalers and Paul, and it looked with its one eye into Paul with complete pity. What are you doing? What is your species doing? And, you know, one of the many things he talked about was, you know, going through like the six extinctions that have happened. And he's like, you know, the one that he thinks we're in right now is human caused. And he relates it to a lack of spirituality within humans that goes directly back to nature. And like for me, you know, I think there's a balance with both

because I think if you're just out in nature, there's people who live out literally in nature, like away from other humans. They're not with their fellow humans. They don't get that experience, right? That's not a balance you want. If you live in the city, you're not with nature. But in the city, you're with, you know,

I look at this skyline right here. That's why we did it on this third wall. It's my favorite skyline in the world and it's right there behind that wall which is cool but like you know there's there's people all here from all different backgrounds in in each one of those boroughs too there's people from all different walks of life experiences who often came there from other places and that's the beautiful thing about new york city they get to share all these things. So I think there's a yin and a yang there, but I see what you're saying because we kind of get,

maybe if we get more packed in in cities over time and there's more and more people just focused in little areas, we can kind of lose sight of the fact that there is a great world out there. Well, what's interesting is that the percentage of the human population that identifies themselves as atheists, agnostics, or nuns, where they have no religion, that's been rising throughout the 21st century. But it's rising at the same rate that urbanization is rising. As more and more people live in big cities, you see more and more. And I've actually been in very rural parts of Africa

and Latin America. And what I notice is when you're talking to people who live close to nature, I've yet to meet one that doesn't believe in God. But when I'm in the big cities, that's where I run into all the atheists. All the atheists I've debated in my career, they've all been living in big metropolitan cities. So I think the book of nature is a huge factor. It's a way that God brings us to him. And it's like everybody's been exposed to the big book of nature, but many of us have isolated ourselves from nature by withdrawing from the wild world, living in cities where there's just enormous light pollution, so we don't get to see what God created.

I think what blunts that, the James Webb Space Telescope. I say, hey, you can't see 15,000 stars like Abraham did, but look at the Hubble Space Telescope. Look at the James Webb Space Telescope. And the images are gorgeous. There's a beauty. I remember when I was on the faculty at Caltech trying to talk to atheist astronomers in the hallways at Caltech in Pasadena, it's different than when we would go onto the telescope in the Owens Valley Radio Observatory. Then we would take a day off and go into the high Sierras and get up into one of these beautiful mountain meadows. I'd simply say to my atheist peers, what do you think of this place? They said, it's beautiful beyond

description. I got a question for you. Why do you think this place is so beautiful? And that would really open up a deep spiritual conversation that would have never happened in Pasadena, California. There's something about having that close contact with nature and just seeing the beauty that's just everywhere. God made this universe beautiful. He made the just everywhere. God made this universe beautiful. He made the earth beautiful. He made the animals beautiful, the plants. There's something about

walking through an Alpine meadow that's filled with wildflowers. It has an impact on you. And I remember there's one atheist saying, you know what? I don't believe in God, but I'm having a spiritual experience. There's something about this place." If you go back thousands of years ago, everybody was having those experiences. Today, the majority of human beings have never seen the Milky Way. They've only seen a few dozen stars, and they have no contact with these wild birds and wild mammals. That to me explains the rise of what I see, agnosticism atheism and the nuns fascinating well if i dig into that i'm never going to get to some of the other stuff we want to talk about okay so i i will leave that there because you keep on creating an open loop and

i keep going down it but we had hinted at the beginning you know you looking at and it's come up in some of the conversations you looking at the at the concepts of the size of the universe and extraterrestrial life and how that could equate with even some of the things you believe in the Bible. I know one of the things you have said on camera earlier in the conversation had to do with the fact that the Bible said that Jesus was sent here one place, one time, one man, something like that, for all. So the for all could signify that there's other species that exist in other places. But to start it off, when did you – at what point in your life did you start to get curious about the existence of extraterrestrial life and and what yeah when did you get into it probably when I was seven I mean that's when I started reading all these books in astronomy and that was part of what I was curious about you know is this universe a habitat for more than one

species like us and what about all these, you know? I remember when I was a child, there was a big debate. Is the sun the only star that's got planets orbiting it? I mean, that wasn't settled. Now we know that virtually every star has got planets orbiting it. So then the question is, well, how many planets do we have that are just like our planets? I remember when the first planets were being discovered outside of our solar system. That was 1995.

And they were saying, we're going to find hundreds of planets just like the planets in our solar system, and many just like planet Earth. Well, here we are in 2023. We have discovered over 5,000 planets outside of our solar system. Not a single one is like any of the planets in our solar system, which led to a discovery on the part of astronomers. We thought that Earth had to be fine-tuned for advanced life. We now know that all the planets in the solar system have to be fine-tuned to make advanced life possible here on planet Earth. So when our family celebrates Thanksgiving, we thank God for Neptune, we thank

God for Uranus, we thank God for Venus and Mars, all the planets, because every one of them has to be exactly the way they are in order for us to have Thanksgiving dinner. And even the asteroid and comet belts, we now see asteroid and comet belts around other stars. They fall into two categories. Stars that have asteroid and comet belts a thousand times bigger than ours and those that have no asteroid and comets at all. If you want advanced life, you need five asteroid and comet belts just like the five here in our solar system we see them nowhere else and so it's like we got a lot of reasons to thank god not just our moon

not just our earth not just our sun but literally everything plays a role in making our existence possible in this universe but to to go back to the beginning of of what we were getting at like did you as a child did you subscribe to like oh ufos come here and visit us or were you just totally unsure i didn't get into ufos i was basically interested in the stuff that we could see and measure the stars the galaxies but when i 16, I was the director of observations for the Astronomical Society in Vancouver, British Columbia. And I remember telling all the other members, we need to have a booth at the Pacific National Exhibition.

And said, hey, we can get all these people visiting our booth to help grind our mirrors. So we get a lot of free labor. Let them grind our mirrors. So we get a lot of free labor, let them grind our mirrors for us. Uh, but they put us right next to the flying saucer club. So people would visit the flying saucer club. Then they come over and say, Hey, what do you think? And I'd say, well, what you saw was not a flying saucer.

It was a planet Venus or was the Pleiades or you saw, uh, you know, uh, a fireball go through the atmosphere. And so I was able to explain about 99% of what people thought was a UFO. But there was 1% that didn't fall into the category of a natural explanation, secret military activity, or a hoax. And this... Can you explain that 1% and what that is I can now at that time I couldn't mainly because I wasn't a follower of Jesus Christ yet but when I became a Christian I realized it's not just physical reality there's non physical reality the angelic realm is real but not physical

so you believe that any quote-unquote UFOs are angel and demon related? Well what I first discovered is these UFO phenomena, the one percent, not the 99 percent, they clearly violate the laws of physics. They're observed going through the atmosphere at thousands of miles per hour, yet there's no sonic boom. There's no heat friction trailed behind the, quote, craft. And there's 2,000 cases where they're documented as a crashing into the earth. You go to the crash site, you see a shallow crater. If there's snow, the snow is melted. If there's vegetation, the vegetation is damaged. If there's vegetation, the vegetation is damaged. But when you go around the crater site, there's no artifacts, there's no debris.

It's like when an airplane crashes into the earth, there's lots of debris to recover. With a UFO, there's nothing. But the fact that you've got a crater, the fact that you've got melted snow and damaged vegetation, something real must have done that. And yet they violate the laws of physics. And I'm not alone. There's six physicists besides myself that have spent at least a decade studying the UFO phenomena. They all agree with the one who's put the most research into it.

That's Jacques Vallée. He's a French astrophysicist. Yes, he's friends with our guy, James Fox. Yes. Well, he basically says we're dealing with something interdimensional. It's something that's not constrained by the dimensions of the universe. You mentioned angels, they would be a possible explanation because they're interdimensional beings. So that's a possibility. The other thing I noticed is that it was Alan Hynek, the American astrophysicist in the 60s, that came up with the term close encounters. Yeah.

Because he made the point it's the close encounters that are difficult to explain. And that's where you come within 500 feet of the UFO phenomena. There's three kinds, right? Yeah. First kind, you come within less than 500 feet of the ufo phenomena that's it there's three kinds right yeah first kind you come within less than 500 feet of the phenomena uh you know second kind is where there's communication going on so he says we're dealing with beings these are interdimensional beings because there's communication going on uh and then jacques valet and others have made the point, we're dealing with something that is not benevolent. Because when people have these close encounters, it's always harmful. The best you're going to come away with is recurring terrifying nightmares. Worst case scenario,

you get killed by the phenomena, or your animals get killed or injured harmful harmful to the human after harmful to the human contactee yeah but during during or after so there are but there are a lot of supposed sightings where it's not during and i could yes because that does could yes like are you familiar with the 94 Zimbabwe yeah well I mean as I mentioned uh often there's nothing happening at the moment but they wind up having these nightmares that recur I mean that's very commonly reported amongst the one percent but if you but so those children for that for people who aren't familiar with that, we discussed it in episode 138 with James Fox. But those children were part of like an international school in Zimbabwe. They were playing on like the edge of the school grounds, and they reported these beings who were the size of them who were friendly and were observing them and were

communicating with them telepathically and i believe i believe what what the what the message that they were sending to the children was that you humans need to be careful with your technology i'm paraphrasing here you need to be careful with your technology i'm paraphrasing here you need to be careful with your technology because you could destroy yourself and then if you look at james's other big case that that he actually just made a documentary on moment of contact which we did another podcast number 139 specifically on that one one. In that case, one of the sightings was the the message was you humans have no idea what your potential is and so i point these out because neither of these are negative things neither of these are satanic things to say to somebody right and so doesn't that put a little bit of a hole in that argument that is always

negative well for example this is not a new phenomena it's been going on for thousands of years and so like you've got the irish talking about leprechauns i mean they appear in different forms what i find interesting is that with the ufo phenomena it was slow-moving dirigibles in the atmosphere 100 years ago. World War II, it was the Foo Fighters moving at the speed of sound. Today, they're moving at 25,000 miles per hour. They seem to be keeping pace with our aircraft technology. And they keep changing their story.

100 years ago, they said we're from the backside of the moon. When the lay public became aware, that's not credible. They said, well, we're from Venus. When people became aware of how warm it is on the surface of Venus, they said we're from Mars. Now they're saying that they're from another planetary system. So the fact that we see the stories changing in the way when did they say just brush up my history a little bit when did they say Venus and Mars like when are some of those sightings are those I assume pre-world war two that's pre-world war two yeah and after World War Two they were saying Mars but uh when you get to say yeah but

when you get to the 60s and 70s, they were saying nowhere from a planetary system. I mean, I believe you, but I mean, not that I know all these cases at all. I definitely don't. I just wasn't familiar with cases since World War II where there was being saying where they were from. Well, again, you'll find phenomena. And if you go back 1,000 years, that wasn't happening at all, mainly because people weren't weren't interested in aerial phenomena they had no experience of aerial phenomena so only when humans were engaged in aerial phenomena do we see ufos so they're basically trying to manifest themselves as i said 100 years ago dirigibles world war ii foo fighters now they're moving as fast as our fastest spacecraft what are

dirigibles oh that that would be uh you know like the uh goodyear blimp oh that's a new word for me okay so they were moving that's that's kind of slow no that was slow yeah but i mean it's the first aerial phenomena that humans are really familiar with yeah because you also don't really have anything to compare it to yeah which also could be a problem because then it's like well are you just seeing that or are is your mind seeing what it's already seen once before which goes into those 99 cases you talk about like i think are there people out there who have to be just straight up lying yes Yes. Like stories that come out. A lot of that. Yes. I mean, I have to deal with people telling me stories all the time.

It's like, okay, you didn't really have this experience. I think some of them, though, aren't lying, though, but they didn't see what they think they saw. I think they truly believe they saw what they saw. I place a difference there the difficulty is seeing if there's that small sliver of cases where you know they that one percent you talk about where they really did see something and it's inexplicable but you're so you're getting at the the angel demon thing well one thing that i find interesting is that you've got a number of cases where the human contactee goes into a trance and they begin to compose on a computer or a typewriter. So for example, there are four UFO religions here in the United States,

four significant ones. And they're based on something called the Orontia book. Okay. It's a big thick book that was communicated from so-called UFO beings to human contactees. And you know it talks about technology and all this stuff but almost a third of its total content is denying that Jesus Christ is God. It's like okay that's a red flag. Why all this focus on trying to convince people that Jesus isn't God. And then the other thing you notice is that people do have harmful experiences. So how do you explain that? And how do you explain the fact that the message keeps changing with respect to time?

And what I find particularly interesting, because I was in the Soviet Union when the Soviets were still running the show, and they had me speak to their scientists and they basically it was interesting what they told me is if we catch you sharing your Christian faith with anyone except a scientist we'll deport you immediately all right back up okay the Soviets had you speaking to their scientists during the Cold War during the Cold War obviously because it was still the Soviets. Yeah. And they let you back in America? And let me back in America. Well, they even paid my expenses. So they took care of our...

I know, but we let you back in? I don't know about that one. Am I getting a spook in the very first sit-down here? I don't know. Well, it's an interesting experience because they said, look, the reason why we're letting you speak to our scientists, they go to international conferences.

They were very honest with me and said, we're bringing you here. We know you're a Christian, and we know what you're all about, and we're basically appeasing our scientists. And so they get to pick the talks that you give. In fact, they had me. I had to give a list of 30 different lectures I could give, some to do with Christianity, some that had nothing to do with Christianity. And they basically said, the scientists that you speak to, they'll pick the lecture, not you. They pick. They always wanted me to talk on Christianity and science, and a lot of them wanted me to talk on UFOs. A good third of my lectures were on UFOs, but I found out why, because a lot of them had UFO experiences, way more than 1%.

And I also discovered that these were scientists that were involved in occult research. That was a time when the Soviet Union was sponsoring occult physics. Can you explain occult to people who aren't familiar? Well, um... I always say occult, by the way. I don't know if that's... Am I pronouncing that wrong? No, it's occult. O-C-C-U-L-T. It's basically tools that people develop to try to contact extraterrestrial beings, like Ouija board to try to contact an angelic being, seances, astrology.

These are examples. And these are things that the Bible explicitly forbids. It's like, hey, you want a supernatural encounter? Don't go to these angels. Come to me. Don't go to these angels. Well, the Bible tells us there's two categories of angels, the righteous angels and the fallen angels. And the Bible warns us the fallen angels are out to harm you.

They're out to deceive you. How did they fall? Well, they rebelled against God, just like Adam and Eve rebelled against God. But they're not humans. They're not humans. They're angels. They're angels. So they're supernatural and they're supposed to emanate from a place allegedly where none of this, you said it way better and I'll say it earlier, but like none of these laws apply. None of these, we don't have to be in families and stuff like that.

So how could they fall? I don't understand. Like, aren't they above falling? Well, they fell spiritually. We're not talking a physical fall, a spiritual fall. Yeah, yeah. They said, hey, we know God created us, but we don't want to submit to him anymore.

It was Satan who said, I want to be like the Most High. I want to be the one in charge. And so he rebelled against God, and it tells us that he led a third of the angels in rebellion with him. And so they're in a battle with God and the righteous angels. But their target is to deceive as many human beings as possible. And their strategy is, we're going to offer humans power in return for truth. We're going to take truth away from them, but we're going to give them power.

He says, these humans, they're suckers for power. They all want power. And so that's kind of their strategy. And that's why they appear in these forums saying, hey, we can give you advanced technology. We can help you with your problems, but you do pay a price. There is deception. up earlier, but like, why would God create supernatural angels under, I guess, similar constraints, or at least on the same wavelength type constraints as he does humans, where they have the will to not be an angel anymore? Do we have a good explanation for that?

Well, we've talked about this earlier. He created us human beings with strong free will, so that strong love would be possible. God wanted strong love relationships with his creation. He had the same goal for the angels. He wants strong love relationships with the angels, which means he granted them strong free will. And he knew ahead of time, some of them would use their free will to rebel against him. But it's hey i want strong love i'm willing to have this happen or some choose not to relate to me he gives the angels the same choice he gives to us human beings we can spend eternity with him or eternity without him so do you think that i'm trying to put together everything you're saying so correct me if i'm making some of the wrong leaps here.

But you're referring to the fact that there seems to be an overwhelming negativity as a result of these quote-unquote events that happen, which is alluding to the fact that they're fallen angels who are doing this, not angels. So you don't think angels have ever, if this is the case, been responsible for the phenomenon as we know it? Like there's never been a sighting where you walk by and there's a giant crater or something and something was there and you can't find anything and it was actually an angel as opposed to a fallen angel. Well, the distinction is righteous angels versus fallen angels. And we see in the book of Hebrews a a statement referring to Christians, many of you have entertained the righteous angels unawares. And so God will allow the righteous angels to momentarily assist Christians in their ministries. And you see that in the book of Acts, where an

angel opens the jail for Peter, and Peter walks out, and the angel disappears and says many of you have had these experiences that didn't even notice it because it was so momentary but here we're talking about the fallen angels the angels that are in opposition to God and I think what is significant I saw this when I was in Russia is where you see people deeply involved in the occult and trying to gain these supernatural powers, that's where you see a very high incidence of UFO events. So, and you even see that here in America. There's certain states where we see a higher rate of experiences of UFOs than you do in other states, but it's proportional to the percentage of the population

that's involved in the occult, and the Bible tells us these evil angels, they need permission. They cannot touch you unless you give them permission, and you give them permission through your occult experiences. So the book we wrote, Lights in the Sky and Little Green Men, we say it's a scientifically testable explanation of UFOs. Get rid of all the occult in your life, that'll be the end of your UFO experiences.

Begin to pursue the occult, don't be surprised if it happens. And notice how frequently the UFO phenomena repeats. So it's like certain individuals have repeated UFO encounters, but these are the individuals that are very much into the occult. Take that out of your life. And again, I'm not alone. These physicists who've devoted 10 years plus to studying the phenomena, they draw the same conclusions. They say, we're not sure. Who are people like jacques valet yeah yeah you mentioned him uh and i forget the five others are in our book but we quote them too and what they write they say well we're not exactly sure who's responsible for this ufo phenomena but whatever it is

it's a one-to-one correspondence to demonology so they say whatever is behind the demonic phenomenon is also behind the ufo phenomenon and these are people who are not christians they're not even uh you know believers in god at all but they say we can't deny this one-to-one correspondence how do you yeah but how do you i mean you said one of the names of your book is like the little green men lights in the sky and little green men yeah so how do you, I mean, you said one of the names of your book is like the Little Green Men. Lights in the Sky and Little Green Men. Yeah, so how do you explain, like the Little Green Men, little devil angels? Well, I'm making the point that if you go back deep in history, thousands of years ago, they're not appearing as unidentified flying objects.

They're typically appearing as little creatures. Again, a good explanation is the leprechauns or the fairies that people were experiencing. Again, they're adapting to our technology and our culture. And so until the invention of the aircraft, until they had these blimps in the sky, they weren't appearing that way. Right. they had these blimps in the sky, they weren't appearing that way.

Right. How do you explain some of the nuclear encounters, though? And for a little background on that, that's another thing that I discussed a lot with James Fox when he was in here. But, you know, James is like, I'm not sure there's a better historian of the post-World War II phenomenon than James. I mean his movie The Phenomenon, I may be a little biased, but I think it's probably the best UFO documentary ever made. It goes through that history as beautifully as anything I've ever seen. There are so many sightings that occurred, not just in the United States but around the world in Russia where you talked about the occult and stuff like that, that involve nuclear bases and military personnel. And they will watch their nuclear triggers get fucked with and things will change. They'll either turn on or turn off. And they've discussed how it's like – I think – what was the guy's name, Alessi? The old guy who – Bob.

Bob. It was the intro to 138. I probably already played it in this episode. But Bob Salas, that's it. Bob Salas who was on a base in America who purports some of these sightings, he talks about it. It was almost like they were taking matches out of the hands of a baby. Because in the post-World War II world, after we reached the nuke and used it twice on Japan, which was definitely excessive. But that's neither here nor there. It's almost like that unlocked this thing where humanity could destroy itself. Which is a real biblical type idea, by the way.

But these beings start appearing on these bases to take away, to tell us they're stopping our ability to do that. That was reported so much, and if that pattern isn't even somewhat true, that would seem to be a very positive one to me so is that angels well i don't see a lot of that in the ufo literature i mean i've read those kinds of stories but it's like i'm not seeing the documentation um what they do document is that the most common appearance of a ufo is 3 am. in the morning on lonely country roads, which I find fascinating because guess what? That's where our telescopes are. It's we astronomers who spend a lot of time at 3 a.m. in the morning on lonely country roads trying to observe the heavens. And yet, what I document in Lights in the Sky and Little Green men, observational astronomers have one of the lowest incidence of UFO encounters.

Although I do know of two astronomers who would come on the telescope for three or four hours a year and almost every time they had a UFO encounter. Meanwhile, I'm logging 1500 hours a year. I never have an encounter. Two of my fellow graduate students likewise were logging,500 hours a year. I never have an encounter. Two of my fellow graduate students, likewise, were logging about 1,500 hours a year. We never saw a thing.

I said, well, I know the difference. The three of us were not involved in the occult. Those two we know are deeply involved. And so they were seeing it virtually every time. You knew they were deeply involved with it? Oh, yeah. Yeah, they didn't make any bones about it. And so they were seeing it virtually every time. You knew they were deeply involved with it? Oh, yeah. Yeah, they didn't make any bones about it. So they were in, because they were saying, we're scientists, we're trying to gain power.

And I said, well, what are you guys doing? It's like, oh, yeah, they're trying to call up demons. But is that the intention, though? They're not trying to call demons. No, they want the power. I mean, some people can, but. Well, I mean, I even saw that at Caltech, especially saw it when I was in the Soviet Union. They got fascinated by things floating in midair and trying to, they were doing quite physics research. And I says, yeah, it only happens to the physicists that are involved in the occult.

We don't see spoons floating in midair, but they do. And I remember, too, in our church, there was a couple that just purchased a home, and they said there's one room that's colder than all the other rooms, and it's a room where pencils and spoons float in midair. And we think that there's a demon here. We think there's something messing this place up. I said, well, that can only happen if the previous owner is left behind an occult article. We need to find it and get rid of it. I said, we've already searched the house. We've found nothing.

I said, well, let's bring a team over. And so we prayed for about 30 minutes that God would help us find the article. They said, we've searched the whole house. And I said, what about the basement? We've searched that too. What about the garage? He says, take me to the garage. Went under the garage, and I saw rafters with a pile of junk lumber on top of the rafters.

He says, have you gone through that junk lumber? No, we haven't. We hauled all the junk lumber down in the middle of it was an astrological forecaster we went back into the room that was colder than the other rooms you could see a faint octagonal outline on one wall it was exact same size as this astrological forecaster we destroyed it the room temperature went back to normal. No more floating objects in the room. Right away. Right away.

Just by destroying it. Just by destroying that one item. It was all gone. Which is a supernatural occurrence because that violates certain laws. Yes. But if you've got angels, they're not subject to the laws of physics. When you have experiences like that repeatedly throughout your life, you begin to realize the angelic realm is real.

When did you realize that was real? Was that coincided with your time to converting to Christianity? Or was it sometime after that? Well, I remember when I first got the job of dealing with UFO reports. I mean, when I went on to the University of British Columbia, they said, we're going to have you deal with all this because you know the night sky. You can explain all this stuff to people. And I thought that all this UFO stuff was nonsense, that I could explain everything as a natural phenomena,

some military activity, or people were just playing a hoax. I remember especially undergraduate engineering students, they loved to duplicate UFO phenomena. They were playing tricks. And so for a number of years, I was convinced I could explain everything. But then I began to have these other people coming to me, and I realized, oh, there's more going on than just the pure physical realm here. There's something happening, but it's a very small percentage. Now, most UFO researchers say that

5% of what people tell them are in the category of non-physical reality. For me, it was only 1%. But I think that's because being an astronomer i was able to recognize more of the natural phenomena than the other researchers were but it's somewhere between one and five percent even that seems like almost a little high to me too i mean i would think like you said there's so many damn stories out there right and people say it and and even just having a few be true is wild to me right well the total database is in the tens of millions so when you talk about one to five percent we're talking a lot of evidence that's what i'm saying yeah it's a lot of that's one thing that people like jacques valet say we can't just push this underneath the table there's way too many experiences people are having and hey if it's

one percent out of 20 million uh well that's 200 000 encounters i mean it's not a small number well you also predicted at least a couple years ago maybe a little longer i think it was in one of your books that in the coming years you predicted we would see the government start to push out a lot of quote-unquote UFO material. And it would appear you're right about that. I mean, especially in the year 2023, it has been nuts how much is coming from the government. What made me think that is the database is so big, it's going to leak out. And the best way for the government to deal with it is just come clean and just release it. Yeah. So, and that's kind of what's happened, not just in the U.S. France has released a lot of stuff.

I mean, so it's almost a worldwide release phenomena. And people said, Hugh, are you going to have to revise your book? I said, all the new stuff that's been released is just like the old stuff it's just more of it and it's basically telling people this is not just a minor phenomena I mean that's what David Grush was saying when he testified to Congress he said this is not a minor phenomena. It's widespread. He was right about that. He was wrong about almost everything else he said. Because David Grush has been making claims for the past five years that our government is hiding actual physical craft. Yes. And that actually have the bodies of UFO beings. I noticed when he testified to Congress, he kind of backed away

and said, no, what we have is biological tissue. And so what does that mean? But the whole point is if our government has been hiding physical craft since 1933, there's no way that evidence would not have escaped by this time. Our government security is not up to the task. I would argue even Soviet security wouldn't be capable of hiding that much evidence from the public. You know, I personally have seen lunar rocks brought back by the Apollo astronauts. I've not physically handled them, but I've watched a scientist just a few inches from me handling these lunar rocks I've yet to see a single artifact from a UFO there's nothing yeah me chew talks about that a bunch yeah I mean lots of stories steal something take something if

you have an encounter yeah it's like the fact that there's no physical artifact that anyone can produce tells us we're not dealing with something physical. It's a huge hole. It's a huge hole. Especially when you're talking 20 million documented cases. With that many cases, there should be physical evidence, and there isn't any. Yeah, I don't think. I mean, we know they're documented, but again, like a small percentage of those I think could have maybe happened. But I do still always go back to these beings, whatever they are, have figured out things that we haven't. And I've also said – and this one I feel a little stronger about, but to be clear, I don't really feel strong about anything in this space. This is very wide open for me.

But I've also said that they could probably – like if they're that advanced and could do some of the things that allegedly they'd have to do to come here or be here, they could probably simulate what happens ahead of time. Meaning if someone has an actual sighting and it's a real sighting, they did that on purpose. Like, that's not an accident. They're beyond, they're above accidents in our reality. They're above that. They wouldn't have, you know, some guy on Catalina Island catch him live on a telescope when they come here, because they'd be able, hypothetically, maybe, to simulate that ahead of time so could that also be a part of why we don't have evidence well but i heard david gruch's testimony it's like he was claiming that these are you know physical beings from another planetary system bringing high technology making the claim that ancient civilizations benefit from the high technology of these beings,

we already know that it's not possible to send a large spacecraft across interstellar space. One reason we know that is astronomers are actually seriously considering sending spaceships to the nearest planet outside of our solar system. It's 4.2 light years away. And therefore they're saying, okay, let's just make a fast trip say at 1 tenth or 1 fifth of velocity of light and get there and find out what's going on on that planet. Well they quickly figured out there's stuff between here and the nearest star. There's particles, there's protons. There's electrons. There's helium nuclei.

There's dust. And so they quickly figured out the biggest spaceship that has any hope of getting there is 10 centimeters across. Anything bigger than that will be destroyed, because the bigger the cross section, the more damage you get. And the faster you go, the more damage you experience. And so astronomers are actually proposing, let's send a thousand tiny spaceships to the nearest planet outside of our solar system

at one-tenth the velocity of light, knowing full well that over half the spaceships will be completely destroyed, and the other half will be partly destroyed. But they'll be destroyed in different ways, and we should be able to get back some useful information. Well, what that tells us is not even a termite is going to be able to go through interstellar space. And so right away we know this claim by David Gruch that they have actual physical craft and hangers can't possibly be true. That would be a violation of the laws of physics.

It's simply not possible for beings our size to traverse interstellar space. And there's no artifacts. I mean, if we actually had the craft, there'd be artifacts by now. And I do think that he was making an interesting point where he said, I believe that our government is hiding technology because these extraterrestrials have figured out how to get around the law of gravity. I think what he heard was scientists studying UFO phenomena saying, we're dealing with phenomena that's not subject to the laws of physics. The best spin I can put in david gruch's testimonies he misunderstood what the scientists were saying them and basically concluding that these craft were designed

to not obey the law of gravity but it's like hey we've observed the entirety of the universe the law of gravity works everywhere you're not getting around the law of gravity and so but it is true that scientists have been telling our government for decades now we're dealing with something that's not subject to the laws of physics and as far as ancients i mean people make the claim that the Egyptians must have had supernatural help to build the pyramids. They're overlooking the huge investment that the ancient Egyptians put into astronomical research. I mean, Stonehenge, we now know, is a stone observatory. If you don't have telescopes, how you get accurate measurements of astronomical phenomena, you build these gigantic stone structures which basically operate like gun sights.

And you stand back a half mile or a mile away, you can get a very accurate position on the planets and the stars without the benefit of a telescope. People used to think that Stonehenge was an exception. We now have the archaeological evidence that tells us thousands of these stone observatories were built all over the world, some of them as much as 50 times bigger than Stonehenge. And some of them could be much older than we actually think. I think they go back.

Well, we know they go back at least 8,000 years. They could go back farther than that. I think they go back, well we know they go back at least 8,000 years. They could go back farther than that. Yeah, they go back. But it basically tells us the ancients weren't stupid, and they were scientifically motivated, and they actually spent a greater percentage of the gross national product on astronomical research than we do today by a very wide margin. And therefore, the pyramids are not beyond the technological capability of the people. They did not need supernatural help. They had all the technology and knowledge that they needed to build those structures. That's true of the Incas in Peru. It's true of what the Chinese did, the Sumerians did, the Egyptians did. In fact, I can tell you this, we astronomers actually cite the ancient Egyptian astronomical

records to improve our models of the interiors of stars, because they were measuring the variability of variable stars, the periodicity to five places the decimal. They did that without clocks. It's amazing. But we actually look at their measurements and say, okay, this star, Algol, it's the second brightest star in the constellation Perseus. It's an eclipsing variable star.

We have a measurement today that's accurate to eight places the decimal. We compared it with an Egyptian measurement that's more than 3,000 years old. It's a different measure. And so we use the differences between the two measures and say, hey, the period has actually slowed down over the past 3,100 years. And we use that precise Egyptian measurement

to actually build a superior model of what's going on in the interior of the star, Elgal. We wouldn't be able to do that if the ancient Egyptians hadn't invested a huge amount of their science into studying the stars and the planets. Yeah, I don't want to get too bogged down in a pyramid discussion right now because we'll be here all night and I'm not the guy to do it. That's definitely – that's a little beyond me. I've got to get someone else in here with you. But the possibility that I raised way earlier in the convo that we didn't really get into that you've also discussed a little bit referring back to Jacques Vallée and some of the things he says about interdimensional beings. Have you opened yourself up to the possibility that we are visited by future humans who have figured out what we don't currently have the ability to do with our laws of physics, which is to traverse time? Well, that's a common feature within the ufo phenomena that these beings

want to give us knowledge scientific knowledge and technology we don't possess i see zero evidence to support zero zero why do you say zero because there's nothing that's coming to the ufo phenomena that in any way is advanced human knowledge and technology in fact that's the reverse well what if but what if you're wrong about like the pyramids and things like that and some of the ancient things that that civilizations were able to pull off or if something like atlantis existed well as i look at that stuff i got it i got a book coming out next month where i have a chapter on the history of astronomy. Because when I was at the University of Toronto, I took a course in the history of astronomy from Donald Ferny,

one of the top world experts on that topic. And his whole point was, and it's well documented, is that there's nothing in the ancient cultures that requires any knowledge or technology they didn't already possess. So I stand by my comment. There's nothing that actually indicates that humans have ever received any knowledge or technology from the UFO phenomena. Yeah, in the modern day, I can't really question some of that. Well, even the ancient day.

But how do we know that? Because, I mean, now we're getting impossible. in some of that well even the ancient day but i do but how do we know that because we i mean now we're getting impossible now we're talking we do know that in the sense that we understand the degree they invested in astronomy the measurements they were able to pull off because it's in their records i mean we have their ancient egyptian records for example of their measurements and we know how they achieve those measurements with these stone observatories and you know other means and it's like they didn't need any supernatural advice they they had everything they needed and hey if you got a hundred thousand slaves working for you

for a 70-year period you can pull off some rather amazing construction projects. I think what impressed people, though, is that the way the pyramids were aligned, they're aligned to within 1 30th of a moon diameter. Yes. And people said that's beyond their technology. We now know that's not true. Why do we know that's not true? They had the observatories to be able to make those kinds of precise measurements. But why do they appear all over the world in other places that didn't have necessarily contact with each other? How do you explain that? Well, I think everybody is interested in the heavens. You know, the heavens declare the glory of God. People everywhere are fast.

I mean, I noticed that. I put up my telescope in the front yard of our home, and children everywhere run to look through the telescope. Right, but they all build something that looks similar. Like the way they build buildings even in the world now where everyone's connected, they'll build buildings differently in a city in Europe than they will here. You know? Sometimes they build something that's the same.

Well, what I find interesting is these stone observatories, they're very similar to one another with people that are not connected to one another. Also very creepy. I don't think it's creepy at all. They had a motivation to be able to measure the movements of the planets and the positions of the stars to high precision. And it's easy. I mean, you've got to build a stone observatory of a certain size and feature

in order to pull off measurements of that precision. And people were doing it all over the world. And you say, yeah, they're reinventing the wheel, but, yeah, it's pretty clear you're going to need some kind of a gun sight to pull that off, and you're going to need really big stones to make it work. No doubt. Well, listen, Doc, we just did like three hours. Oh, we did? Yeah, I told you it

would go by very fast. But this has been a very, there's a lot to think about in this conversation. There's gonna be a lot of people who disagree with everything you say. There's gonna be a lot of people who disagree with some of it. And there's gonna be a lot of people who agree with a lot of it. But I like conversations like that. And I really appreciate your, as I was saying earlier, I really, really appreciate how you go about this. You have a very kind and gentle way of doing it. And you do seem like the kind of person who exhibits a lot of the qualities as a human being that we should all strive for. So I appreciate that about you.

Well, thank you. And my goal is just to get people to think. So hopefully we gave people a lot of things to think about. We definitely did that so okay thank you for coming out here from california and everybody else you know what it is give it a thought get back to me peace thank you for watching this video everybody if you haven't already please smash that subscribe button hit that like button on the video and i will see you for the next episode in the meantime here's another one that you might like linked right here