Julian Dorey Podcast - 🤯 [VIDEO] - Evidence 20 Million People DISAPPEARED in Ancient Amazon | Luke Caverns • 175

Starting point is 00:00:00 Both of these sides know war is coming and they thought this was going to be the final meeting or maybe it was going to be the first battle. And so this priest walks up to Atahualpa with the Spanish Bible and he basically tells them, you're going to have this opportunity to convert to Christianity. You're going to worship our God. And if you don't join us, you're going to be slain. Atahualpa takes the Spanish Bible. He opens it, spits on it, rips the page out and throws it on the ground. The whole city has

Starting point is 00:00:25 been abandoned, and what he doesn't realize is that hiding just off in the forest with telescopes are Pizarro and his men watching Atahualpa throw the Bible on the ground. Just like that, the Spanish descend down on the Inca army, and Pizarro himself, he runs up to Atahualpa with a knife, puts a knife to his throat, and kidnaps him just just like that and all of the inca empire is shut down in one moment luke cavins welcome to jersey baby how's it going man thank you for having me of course of course this is my first time here in jersey yeah i mean maybe i drove through here briefly last year but this is my very first time actually coming here and getting out of a car. Well, double welcome then. It's a great state. Best state in America. Not that I'm biased or anything. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:01:12 But you're coming from where? San Antonio? San Antonio, Texas. Yeah, I've been living there for a couple years with my wife. She's in dental school, and we moved there for that, but grew up in East Texas, in Tyler, Texas. Well, I grew up in White House, Texas, which is right outside of Tyler. So a little, little tiny town. You're not a Cowboys fan, are you? A huge Cowboys fan. Son of a bitch! All right, we've got to cut.

Starting point is 00:01:37 We've got to leave this. We can't do this podcast. God damn it. Yeah, yeah. I came in and saw the Eagles coasters, and I went, oh, interesting. Yeah, you're an enemy. I don't know how this podcast is going to go. I mean, I'm in enemy territory right, and I went, oh, interesting. Yeah, you're an enemy. I don't know how this podcast is going to go. I mean, I'm in enemy territory right here whenever I've been living up here at different points in my life because this is the New York Giants and Jets area,

Starting point is 00:01:54 but especially with the Giants fans, obviously, I take it personal. But Cowboys fan in the studio, man, I don't think we – have we had that yet? I don't know if we've had a Cowboys fan. I usually thought it was like a genetic mistake, but, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, it feels like that because they really haven't done anything too significant in the entire time that I've been alive. No, they haven't.

Starting point is 00:02:14 96, last playoff win, or last Super Bowl win, but who's counting? Yeah, the year after that, I was born. And ever since then, it's been like an omen. Might be your curse. Might be the curse of Luke on the Cowboys. I don't know. Yeah, yeah. I'll take it though.

Starting point is 00:02:26 But anyway, we got some important stuff to talk about today. So you and my boy Danny Jones also just did a podcast. I guess you hit us up at around the same time there. But what I like about your expertise is that you look heavily at South America, which I am so fucking interested in. Yeah, yeah. Because, you know, that's kind of like the Amazon. Obviously, I've had Paul Rosely in here talking about it. He's lived there for 18 years. But the Amazon is like kind of the lungs of the earth.

Starting point is 00:02:55 It's like where so many things began, and there's so many mysteries we don't even know about in it. And then when you think about the entire continent and all the history there, you know, we get lost in our whole North American-centric memory of the discovery. But when the New World was getting discovered, you know, they were discovering the whole damn thing. And there's so much history. You talk about the Mayans, the Aztecs, all these different things I want to get into today.

Starting point is 00:03:20 But what was your, like, origin story with getting into studying South America in addition to the other things you study but that is like kind of a lead to become an expert in? So, well, I grew up always hearing about – so on both different sides of my family, so my paternal side, my dad's side of the family, his golly great-great-grandfather and his four brothers are involved in one of the biggest – if you were to pick up any books that were about lost treasure and legends of southwest United States or west Texas, you would find a story about my great, great, great grandfather. It's one of those guys. But it was the four Reagan brothers and they lived in a place called Dryden, Texas in Reagan Canyon. And Reagan Canyon was basically a route that like Spanish caravans would come through, you know, pulling gold because they were looking for the seven cities of gold that, you know, we'll get into it later, but like El Dorado, that's just one story of, I don't know, maybe a dozen stories. There are a dozen cities like El Dorado, probably more, but there's a bunch of legends. And so one

Starting point is 00:04:40 of these legends was the seven cities of gold that the Spanish were looking for. They did find a lot of gold, but they never quite found these seven cities. But when they were pillaging gold and they were bringing their own riches from Spain up through the Chihuahuan Desert, they would pass through what was called Reagan Canyon. It wasn't called that then, but it would later on be called Reagan Canyon. And so the four Reagan brothers, they lived out there and they ended up getting wrapped up in this story about these bandits that would sit up in the canyons and they would basically sack these Spanish caravans coming through, steal all the gold, but they didn't have, I guess, the horses or the ability to take all of the gold with them. So they hid it up

Starting point is 00:05:23 in the canyons, like in caves, or they would, it's all kind of like a volcanic desert rock that's there. And then so they knock out the, I guess they knock out the rock wall, build like a little cave, and then they cover it up. And then so they would put these stakes in the ground, something that's subtle that only they would be able to come back and see, but they didn't come back and get all of it. And this would have been 1600s, early 1700s that this happened, you know, leading up to the Alamo, so 1800s. And so, a lot of that gold is lost out there. Well,

Starting point is 00:06:00 towards the turn of the century, getting close to the year 1900, the four Reagan brothers are out there, and they end up, some of the, they had like indentured servants that were out there. They had this boy, his name was Jim Kelly. He was a, he was a- No, I'm sorry, not Jim Kelly, Bill Kelly. He was a Mexican-African young kid that came up on a mule. He was riding a mule. He rode it through the Reagan Canyon straight up onto their ranch in Dryden, Texas. And so they ended up bringing in the kid. And while he was out herding animals, he found one of these caches. And so I won't go all the way into the story, but it leads into this long legend of my family and, you know, my great,

Starting point is 00:06:45 great, great grandfather and his three brothers going on this like 30 year search to recover some of this gold that was stolen from their land because people ended up coming in and finding some of these caches and stealing them. And then they would go back and look for more. And this is like, this is like thousands of acres at way out there in the middle of nowhere. It's probably, you know, probably the last people that were out there were my family like 120 years ago. So it's all still sitting out there. I haven't gotten to go yet because you have to have like a crazy Jeep just to get out there. Hey, guys, I need your help with three quick things.

Starting point is 00:07:20 And if you're watching me on Spotify video right now, you can see this timer to my right. It is going to be fast. Number one, if you are not already following the show, please hit that follow button on Spotify or whatever audio platform you're on. Number two, if you're on Spotify right now, on our show's homepage in the description, you will see a link to our Spotify podcast clips channel. That's right. We are posting clips from this podcast every single day on there. There is a whole library. So go over there and follow. And finally, number three, if you are on Spotify or Apple, please leave a five-star review. It is a huge, huge help to the show. Now let's get to the episode.

Starting point is 00:07:51 Anyways, so the grandson of that Reagan, his name is Lee Reagan. The grandson of him was my dad's dad. He was born into like a lot of oil wealth. And my family just had a lot of oil stuff going on. Yeah, from Texas. What else? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he got into gold mining and Spanish treasure hunting.

Starting point is 00:08:12 He ended up finding the seven lost Spanish gold mines of New Mexico. And this is in southern New Mexico. And he ended up finding these, found a lot of gold, opened up Three Bells Mining and Milling Company, and found a lot of gold in these mines. And these are like old Spanish mines. There's a legend that the Mogollon native people out there, they were the ones that originally dug out these mines, although there's not anything to substantiate that, but that's the legend and so uh he was mining these semi-ancient gold mines and and you know cutting out more gold mines for like eight years uh their smelter exploded uh somebody

Starting point is 00:08:53 died and his partners ran off with all the money and like my family like they fell into poverty my dad had to rise out of that anyways i grew up hearing about these stories of my dad's side of the family chasing lost Spanish gold. And then on my mom's side of the family, my grandpa was a pastor, but he was really interested in archaeology and the history of the Bible. And he actually cared about the world that the Bible took place in. And so I learned a lot from him as far as like, I didn't know it at the time, but it was like an anthropological study of the biblical world. And that's what I would become interested in. I'd be sitting there in church and I'd be like, you know, people would be talking about like the dumbest thing I ever heard when I was in church was somebody brought up something about they had like an automated phone number that you could text that would simulate Jesus Christ. And then they'd be like...

Starting point is 00:09:47 The Lord has risen. And we had this thing called Text Jesus. And my sister and I always joke about that because that was the last time I ever went to Sunday school. What would he say when he responded? Man, I can't even remember. This was probably... I was probably 17. I just thought it was so stupid.

Starting point is 00:10:12 Like, I didn't care about how the Bible really was applicable to what was going on with us today. I mean, I get it. You can read the lessons and understand it for yourself. But I wanted to know about the world that the people lived in, because a lot of that is real. You know what I mean? The Bible is insanely historically accurate. Insanely. You know, when you get to like the time of Moses and you start talking about Egypt, everything that happens before Moses, some of that can be taken up as interpretation, but when you get to Moses and it's talking about Egypt, man, it's shockingly precise. How do we know that? And I've had other people talking about this who come at it from different angles, but you know, I've studied some of that history where they can, like, actually measure where

Starting point is 00:10:49 someone's tomb was, and carbon date it, like, what years it was, and line up stories. But outside of some of, maybe some of the mainstream, you know, oh, here's the tomb of Abraham and things like that. How do we know that a lot of these things happened? Okay, so I can't really speak as to when you're looking in the ancient Middle East. You know, the Bible takes place in a very small area, basically the Holy Land and a little bit of Egypt, right? I don't really study the Holy Land, so there's things that go on there that I couldn't speak to. But some of the oldest writings in the Bible, whoever was writing them knew about ancient Egypt during the time that Moses would have existed, which is 1400 to 1300

Starting point is 00:11:33 BC. This is some of the oldest parts of the Bible. And it's not that there is an overwhelming amount of evidence for the existence of Moses himself, right? Not that, there's not an overwhelming existence of a lot of people who are in the Bible, like King David. There's only a little ancient letter that's written on like a clay tablet that mentions a King David, perhaps in the area where he would have lived. But what they do get right is they get every single detail that they lay out as to how the Egyptian world worked, the way that they constructed their buildings, the type of mud bricks that they used. They even talk about the exact stools that women would sit on, exactly how they're designed when

Starting point is 00:12:21 they were giving birth. There's like a lot of little details, which we call internal evidence, that like when you look at the story of Joseph in Egypt, there's no archaeological evidence at all that Joseph or Moses ever existed. There's no archaeological evidence. But the internal evidence that happens inside the story when it describes what was going on in Egypt could have only been written by somebody who was living there at exactly the same time. So, when I talk about, like, the historical accounts of the Bible, when it gets particular, it's, like, shockingly particular. And so, I can really only speak to Egypt, which is the more ancient parts of the Bible. You know, once you get after Noah, you quickly get to Moses. You know what I mean? There's only that short period of the Bible where you go from Adam to Noah, and then you get to Moses. You know, Moses is as ancient as it gets, really. And everything that's written there, man, it's shockingly

Starting point is 00:13:16 historically accurate. So, I was fascinated by that, and so that kind of led me my whole life, that kind of led me down this road, and I didn't realize it until I was like in my early, early 20s that I was really just interested in ancient history and ancient people. And I had been studying my whole life to be an anthropologist, but didn't know that's what I was going to do until I was like, actually, until I remember it, I was in a totally different career. And I always loved ancient history. And I always pushed it out of the back of my mind. I was like, no, I'm not going to do that. It's not even realistic. Like, I can't go down that route. How am I going to make money?

Starting point is 00:13:53 So I was trying to do all these other things. And so my girlfriend and I, who's now my wife now, Lauren, we're laying on my bed. And we watched the movie The Lost City of Z. Oh, yeah. And we watched The Lost City of Z. Oh, yeah. And we watched The Lost City of Z on my laptop, and it was the first time I'd seen that. I had read – You ever read the book?

Starting point is 00:14:12 I've read parts of the book, but, like, you know, I haven't, like, read the full thing. I understand the story, but, like, as far as – have you ever read River of Darkness? That's about Oriana. I believe it's Oriana's expedition. like i'm vaguely familiar with with oriana's expedition and his history and everything but there's so much else that's going on in south america that i haven't really looked into the stories of people who i don't like deeply fully understand what they did um but i liked the

Starting point is 00:14:42 movie read i would kind of skip around different parts of the book like the parts where it actually talked about faucet i would read that but yeah for people who aren't following though right now with lost city is he can you just explain who percy faucet was and what he did yeah yeah so he was a um well i know he was he was in the military in in england was he a colonel right i think he was believe so yeah I think he was a colonel. And I don't know the story behind why his family was kind of defamed, but it was like his father did something kind of dishonorable or something that brought him like a lot of shame. And so it seemed like the English government had basically commissioned him to do a job in South America where he was going to map, I think, like the border of Brazil along the Amazon River. I think so. And he wanted – so they basically – they gave him like the most expendable mission ever.

Starting point is 00:15:35 They were like, well, if you do this, you can reclaim your family's honor. You can make up for something that had happened in his past. It never mentions that in the movie. I'm sure it's mentioned in the book. I believe it being mentioned in the book. Yeah, it's been a while. I'm trying to remember the details and I can't right now. It was like... It sounds familiar. It was like 2017 that I read that. But yeah, so they basically send him down. And during his,

Starting point is 00:16:02 I believe his first expedition was like two years long and so he maps it but he ends up falling in love with like the indigenous people that are there and he ends up from my point of view and what i get from what i got from a little bit i read from his book and what i've read about him online obviously the movie um he kind of while he was down there he developed a lot of resentment for the uh aristocratic world that he lived in. Yes. It's what it seems like to me. And so I'm not a Percy Fawcett expert by any means, but he developed a lot of resentment for the aristocratic English world that he lived in, and they had these like preconceived ideas that they were the end-all, be-all of all civilization. And so he kind of, it seems

Starting point is 00:16:45 like he developed this little vendetta where he wanted to prove the whole world wrong, that there was something still out there that was like a high culture. And he had been hearing the rumors of it while he was there. And he had been hearing it from the indigenous people. Like El Dorado. Similar to El Dorado. But what's interesting is, and this isn't something that you would learn, like, I don't know, man, you, you would have to like really dive into like the archaeological writings of the area, but it's, it wasn't actually El Dorado that he, well, I guess he maybe thought he was looking for El Dorado, but there is a, um, there's a legend that we know that we have better,

Starting point is 00:17:24 uh, evidence of now which i think it's pronounced like zip put and it's with an it's with an x at the beginning um that is a city that may have existed near the mato grosso region that's never been found but so he's down here in the mato grosso which i think is like southern Southern Eastern Brazil and El Dorado would have been, uh, Northwest. So he, Northwest, um, South America up near Columbia. And so, you know, but you also have Manoa, which was like a lost city that was never found, which people get those two. Have you ever heard of Manoa before? I don't think so. So Manoa is like another legendary city of South America that was filled with gold that people were looking for as well. But then, you know, those kind of like fade into

Starting point is 00:18:11 each other. But from my point of view, and there's not a lot of anthropologists or archaeologists that are looking into this exactly or have much of an opinion on it. El Dorado is kind of written off as like, it's just a legend that just, you know, it never existed. It really wasn't a city of gold. It really wasn't a city that had that much gold, which I don't quite understand that because we know that there were cities of gold. Like there wasn't just one El Dorado. There were dozens and dozens and dozens of them. Right.

Starting point is 00:18:39 So that had to do with what was the name of the monk or priest who was documenting the journey with Oriana when he was first sailing across the Amazon? Man, I just heard his name today too. I was reading before. I was reading on the plane here. But yeah, yeah, there's a guy that documented it. And I think like Nina Fawcett dug up these documents and it kind of like – Is that his daughter? That's his wife. Yeah. I don't know that he had a daughter. I think like Nina Fawcett dug up these documents and it kind of like – Is that his daughter? That's his wife.

Starting point is 00:19:06 Yeah. I don't know that he had a daughter. I think he had a – Oh, he had a son. Jack and Ryan Fawcett. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Nina is his wife. One of the sons died on the – we'll get there.

Starting point is 00:19:15 Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I'm like paying a bunch of everything. Yeah, we're going around. We're talking about Fawcett just to bring people back around. The guy, Oriana, we'll talk about him more, but he's the original conquistador who went fully across the Amazon. Anyway, continue on, Fawcett just to bring people back around the guy Oriana we'll talk about him more but he's the original conquistador who went fully across the Amazon anyway continue on so um basically uh Fawcett's wife I think in the movie it doesn't highlight this like you really don't understand what's happening but she finds like the chronicles because Spanish chroniclers were pretty common like they were writing down almost everything that they were seeing,

Starting point is 00:19:46 but it was usually like one guy. And so if those documents were lost, they were lost. And so even in, let's say this is 1912, that Percy Fawcett's really trying to get these expeditions going and get money and get funding for it. Well, Nina ends up going through some library there in England, and she finds the document that's written by a chronicler that was with Oriana. And I think it basically just adds validity to what he was saying about the rumors that he was hearing. The fact that

Starting point is 00:20:20 there was a Spanish chronicler there in the 1500s talking about the same thing that Percy Fawcett was talking about added a lot of validity, and it helped him get the funding for his expedition. So I don't know the full amount of times that he went, but I think the first time he went is 1906. Yes. And then he was – his last expedition was 1924 1925 and so i'm trying to think when when he the last one he was like around he was coming up on 60 i think he's 59 wikipedia yeah i believe so next so he had done some other ones but when he went on these things the thing that can't be ignored about this guy is he was a fucking savage. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:21:07 I mean, this dude was intense to the core. You're talking about going into the middle of nowhere in the Amazon, uncharted territory. You don't know what lost tribes are out there, people who maybe have been attacked before by other humans and maybe don't like them too much. You know, you don't forget the state of the environment, all the different lethal ways you can die there down to the fucking bugs that can land on you. This guy would not slow down. He was like, if you can't keep up, well, you're just lost. You're gone. A couple months ago, I rushed home from a meeting to catch the second half of my beloved Philadelphia Eagles. They were in a tight game against Washington, and I wanted to lock in for some second half fireworks. Problem was, when I logged into my Comcast livestream account, it told me the game could not be streamed in my region.

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Starting point is 00:22:51 description below. So go get yours today, and thank you to our friends at NordVPN for sponsoring today's video. There was one dude who went with him. It's talked about extensively in the book, which the book we're referring to is by david grahn which became the basis of the movie lost city z but there was a there was like another major explorer who usually did the arctic i don't remember what his name was but the guy was like he was one of those old school like british we all better than now like explorers or whatever exactly what you were talking about and so i forget how but he was like they forced like the british government or something forced him to have to come with percy faucet on an expedition and they literally like ended up leaving the guy behind and he thought

Starting point is 00:23:36 he was like such a pussy like percy faucet was like this guy can't ever come with me again yep and then did he maybe the end of that was even like he didn't make it i don't remember but he was an intense yeah yeah yeah he he made it he made it and then he ended up uh like filing a bunch of grievances against percy faucet blah blah blah and then a few years later when faucet goes back to the jungle he gets so you know they had they had so he was for a lot of his expeditions he was going along the same trail that he had been cutting for years. But he would have to recut it, you know, but he was taking the same routes going deeper and deeper and deeper and deeper. He wasn't just taking like a different route every time he went back.

Starting point is 00:24:15 And so he would have runners that were on horseback, like going up and down these trails, delivering him newspapers, delivering him letters. They knew kind of where he was going to be and he left markers for people to try to find him which like think about the runner think about like those people i don't know how many guys are in like a team of runners it could just be one guy but he ends up getting a newspaper that that same guy went on some other expedition and then died uh on that that was it yeah didn't he go back wasn't it i think he went back to the army he went back to the arctic and then he died yeah yeah yeah that's that was the end go back? Wasn't it? I think he went back to the Arctic. Yeah, he went back to the Arctic and died. And then he died. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that was the end of it. So Percy Fawcett, he ends up going back several times, but I don't know the exact number of expeditions that he went on. But every time he was there, he would find pottery, relics, nothing.

Starting point is 00:25:00 He never really found – well, he found villages. He found villages that had mounds where people were – they were cultivating the land and everything. I'm sorry to butt in here, but I just want to know this for context because the first expedition was around like 1906 or something like that. When again did like what he thought was El Dorado come on his radar and become the sole focus of his expeditions there? I think by the end of his first expedition. By the end of the first expedition, that was like his main prerogative because he had mapped, I guess, the fullest extent. He wanted to know the source of the Amazon River.

Starting point is 00:25:39 It's something along those lines. But I don't think that's like really harped on what the actual purpose of his first expedition was. But by the time he was done, he was fully obsessed with the city being, you know, with this lost higher culture. But he had been hearing many of the same legends that Oriana and Pizarro heard in South America as well. And so, yeah, he ended up chasing this down. And then when he decided to retire, it was his son that talked him back into going on the last expedition. His son, his son resented him. And then his son grew to like admire the expeditions that he had been on. And then he encouraged his dad. He was like, let's go back, let's go back. And so, you know, I think obviously he wanted to go back. And so they went back.

Starting point is 00:26:30 That was like 1923-ish, something like that? Yeah, yeah, like 24, I think. And then maybe, yeah, it's 24. And then in May of 1925, they make it down to the Mato Grosso region of Brazil. And is that how do you spell that? so Mato Grosso is just M-A-T-O Mato or maybe T-T-O

Starting point is 00:26:54 and then Grosso is G-R-A-S-S-O yeah is that it? State of Mato Grosso? so I believe that that's yeah okay that's like south central okay so that's like that's like south central okay so that's close to bolivia then so where he went missing um do you see that on like the lower left side of um the lower left side of brazil where it kind of squares off and it's bordering bolivia right here it go down a little bit more right there a little bit up to

Starting point is 00:27:23 the left of that right there right there that's where he went missing basically basically exactly yeah yeah basically exactly where you have your your mouse at um i'm like 90 sure that that's exactly where it was where's the amazon river in relation um i think it flows right there right yes yeah yeah so wait this is way south of the amazon yeah yeah so he had been he had been going off on all different, you know, following all different rivers ever since that first expedition. Now, why did he do, so for the context, that last expedition, which would have been, I have his bio up on wikipedia which people can pull up so he disappeared in 1925 so last expedition was like 1924 or something like that yeah yeah it should be may of 25 that he went right so at some point he stops writing back because you know like you said he'd get the news out of there and then they're like oh shit he's missing but like what made him think that the that the actual event or or the actual place would have been so far off the beaten path

Starting point is 00:28:32 of the amazon because in in the writing of orianna's trip they're talking about just going down the main amazon did he think that like maybe they had neglected to say they went down all these other estuaries and offshoots or – Yeah, I would imagine – I don't – I would love to – I would love to do a deep dive on what exactly Fawcett knew about Oriana's expeditions or if he even took them into consideration very much. I'm sure he had read all that he could. But at the same time, in the Amazon, and we haven't touched on this yet, but in the Amazon, when you look at ancient civilizations, like if you want to know what was going on in the Amazon in the ancient world, look at the Andes. So look at Colombia, Ecuador, Peru, Bolivia, look at Andean civilization, look at the cultural aspects, and you can see that something greater and more ancient from the Amazon bled into that world. So like where Paul lives, the ancient cities that are near him, which I'm not exactly,

Starting point is 00:29:43 well, I mean, there's a ton out there. So he's probably near, I want to say if he's in the Western Peruvian Amazon, he's probably near like Moche culture. So there's like Moche Valley of Pyramids, but he's also probably not too far from Inca territory as well. So all in these ancient Peruvian cultures, as well as Ecuadorian and Colombian, you see cultural aspects from the Amazon, all the way from the east coast of the Amazon in these ancient caves that have been found. Because we've only gone so far into the Amazon and studied ancient cultural aspects. We don't really know what's deeper in.

Starting point is 00:30:18 And you can see these ancient cultural aspects bleed out into the civilization around it. That's not absolutely covered in jungle foliage. So there's something more ancient and bigger that was going on in the Amazon that bled out into cultures around it. So to answer your question, I think personally, and man, there's only probably a handful of other anthropologists that actually really look into it. I mean, really a handful, maybe less than a dozen. But I think he was following the legends of a different city that wasn't El Dorado and it wasn't Manoa. It was something that the indigenous people in that region had been telling

Starting point is 00:30:55 each other about for hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years. They just didn't all remember exactly where it was. So he was following like very loose rumors but i don't think he was looking for the same city that oriana and pizarro had looked for that's interesting that's i i hadn't heard that but i did pull up the last known location he had was dead horse camp which i think he named that yeah yeah yeah that's okay that's where it is on the map but perhaps like he was good because that's way off that's that's pretty close to where it is on the map but perhaps like he was good because that's way off that's that's pretty close to where you were with yeah your finger i might be a little bit wrong but but still like that's that's way off the beaten trail there i mean he so his son was with him and his son's buddy was with him on that last one so they had three of them and i mean this could

Starting point is 00:31:40 have been look it if you're in the afterlife and you get to find out the answer, oh, what happened? It could be everything from the craziest shit that we can't even imagine, and the aliens got them or something. It could be something like that, not saying it is. Or it could be something as ho-hum as like, oh, a tree fell on him, or like a jaguar got him. Because you'd never find the bodies. The thing about the Amazon that Paul laid out so perfectly as he does is that, I mean, shit will decompose in there inside of a day. Yeah. With all the species and just the land itself. You're not going to find anything.

Starting point is 00:32:18 The Amazon and the jungles of Central America have very acidic soil. So when anything that's alive is buried in the soil, it will be decomposed in no time. We've never found, like in Central America, not to derail, but in Central America we found the tombs of Olmec kings, and there's no biological material left at all because the acidic soil just eats it up and decomposes it all. But, you know, they've found some stuff

Starting point is 00:32:49 from Percy Fawcett's expeditions. They found like his wooden, so dude, these guys were carrying around wooden crates on like they had. So you know how sometimes when you watch the movie and I think like, I recommend anybody go watch The lost city of z it came out in 2017 um with like charlie and tom holland well at the end there when it shows that they're um

Starting point is 00:33:13 that they have the little expedition at the end where it's just um where it's just percy and his son jack well that's that's kind of an exaggeration of how slim their expeditions were. It wasn't just Percy and Jack. It was also their friend Raleigh. But they also very likely and definitely had a team of local people that they were getting to haul around all their junk. These guys weren't hauling around all of their stuff on their own back, you know? But like people, for people at home thinking about this who don't look at this all the time, you know, the easy thing to forget is that we're thinking of like going through jungles and stuff

Starting point is 00:33:51 or like climbing a mountain where there's like pathways. There's no pathways. No pathways at all. As you were pointing out earlier, they had to chop their way through everything. You are, this is the brush, man. So it's like you can see a foot in front of your face at all times. That's it.

Starting point is 00:34:04 Yeah. It's crazy. Well, and the thing i think about when i'm out there and not talking about the amazon i haven't been to the amazon um but when i'm in central america southern mexico like chiapas um you know man anywhere that what i always think like when i think of the most likely thing that happened to percy and and uh well i'll say this real quick and I'll, I'll talk about like the dangers that, that I think about when I'm out there. So they, I believe the legend is like one of their horse died at their camp. So they call it dead horse camp. And he just has to go a little bit further, push through this area where the indigenous people that he had been building up a relationship with, they knew there

Starting point is 00:34:44 was this white man that came around every so often to like bring them gifts and stay with them. So he would build a relationship with these people. And they told him, you go on further, there's like cannibals down there. There's bad people down there who will eat you. And he had been staying with cannibals as well. But these were like, you know, these were vicious people who were kind of terrorizing the other tribes of the area. Well, he wanted to push through it to find his gateway to Z. And so the indigenous people followed him from Dead Horse Camp for five days. They stayed a little bit further behind him, and they would see the smoke trails in the sky from this camp. And on the fifth day, there was no smoke trail.

Starting point is 00:35:21 So he could have been eaten. Something could have happened to him, yeah. I think about that. tough way to go or i think about i mean dude what would happen if like his son got bitten by a fer-de-lance i'm talking about one fer-de-lance in 1925 kills you a what a fer-de-lance so um fer-de-lance is probably the most dangerous snake in the world definitely on this side of the hemisphere, definitely in the Americas. Considerably more venomous than a rattlesnake. Considerably.

Starting point is 00:35:50 You could survive... If a rattlesnake bit you on the leg right now, and you took two Benadryl a day for the next seven days, you'd probably make it. With no... Medical intervention. You would make it, and you wouldn't lose your leg. Fertilance bite, no medical intervention, you die. No questions about it. No questions about it. Or

Starting point is 00:36:10 your whole leg rots off and you might survive. What do you mean it rots off? So like it, as the venom goes through your body and courses through your veins, it slowly, like the toxins rot, rot all the flesh. And I've seen, you can look up like, you know, people at home, you can look up untreated fertile ant bite. If you don't die. I'm not going to do that. If you don't die, your leg turns into a charcoal skeleton.

Starting point is 00:36:38 A charcoal skeleton. Yeah, yeah. It's just like black rotted bone. I've seen. So they got to chop it off. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Something, you know, maybe at that point it's not the venom killing you, but something from your rotting leg is going to get into your blood

Starting point is 00:36:51 and it's going to go to your heart and kill you. So eventually you die. Yeah, there's only – There's no way to stop it. Well, with medical intervention, not like naturally, no. I don't believe so. Unless there's something deep in the Amazon that's some kind of like medicinal – well, dude. Yeah, man.

Starting point is 00:37:09 That's what Paul talks about all the time. They said they have a sap for that instead of an app for that with everything because there's all kinds of – I mean I don't want to get too like woo-woo with it. But he said like you can figure shit out out there. Well, you know, man, I mean I don't ever shy away from the fact that like – not go into religion too much, but I'm Greek Orthodox Christian. I think the whole world was built for, had a purpose. And even if it didn't, dude, would it really surprise you if our planet grew and evolved in such a perfect way that no matter what could happen to us on this planet, there's a natural cure for it. Like, you know, that kind of balance, that wouldn't surprise me at all, you know? You're Greek Orthodox? Yeah, Greek Orthodox. So that's... Your name is Reagan? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're missing like a few O's and L's there. Oh, I know, I know. Yeah, yeah. Well,

Starting point is 00:38:01 Greek Orthodox is just like based around the letters that Paul wrote to the churches as to how the churches should be. So you're not Greek? No, no, no. I'm not Greek. But you're Greek Orthodox. I just subscribe to that like, you know, if you're going to be a Christian, you should take it seriously. Fascinating. You know, because a lot of people in the United States, like, Christianity has become a white United States religion, but it's really not. I mean, it's a Middle Eastern Mediterranean religion that comes

Starting point is 00:38:30 from Greece and comes from the Middle East and Africa, you know? So, you go over there, people take it seriously, you know? Very interesting. That's a new one. I mean, I've been around a lot of Greeks in my life. My best friend is Greek, dual citizen a whole bit. I never met someone who was like a part of their religion and community who wasn't actually Greek. Oh, really? That's like within the last... You veered that way. Yeah, within the last couple years as I've like really gotten deep in anthropology, it, I don't want to say shook some of my views, but it certainly did. And then I just kind of drifted towards something more serious. Because, I mean, you look at Islam in the United States,

Starting point is 00:39:16 those people are very serious about their religion. You look at Judaism, people are very serious. Christianity has become like some lax shadow of itself. Well, it's got a wide range. It's got people who take it extremely seriously, and sometimes I might say way too seriously, and it's got people who are like, oh, I'm a Christian, and like, they couldn't even tell you who Jesus was, right? It's a very... Christianity, you're right, it's a very fascinating diaspora. Maybe that's the right word to use for that in this country. It's not, you know, you don't hear people define themselves that way.

Starting point is 00:39:52 Yeah. Whereas you will more likely hear people define themselves as Jewish or define themselves as Muslim. Yeah, yeah. Right? Yeah, yeah. And there are people who define themselves very heavily as Christian, as I said, but there's more who don't. Yeah. Interesting.

Starting point is 00:40:08 Yeah, yeah. I'm not, like, over the top about it. I'm just open about the fact that I have, like, a faith in a higher being. That that's more than – that there was a mind before there was ever matter. That's the way I believe that. It was all done on a purpose. But I also believe that God is probably more similar to the Force in Star Wars than He is like a man sitting on a cloud. You know what I mean?

Starting point is 00:40:27 Like, I feel like it's probably just a being watches over us is what's important about that belief versus what they're actually like or how they appear. Do you understand what I'm saying? Oh, like the simple fact of knowing there is a God is more important than what that God is like? Said way better than I did. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, I don't know. I don't know how – I don't have a good answer to that.

Starting point is 00:41:07 Probably for a lot of people, yeah, if they just knew that there was a God, that'd be more important than what that God is actually like, you know? Right. So, yeah, I believe that, like, regardless of anything, there was some kind of... We're here on purpose. Maybe you and I aren't here for a specific purpose, but we're here on purpose. Maybe you and I aren't here for a specific purpose, but we're here on purpose. That's kind of what I believe. But that's why I say, like, you know, when I hear Paul talk about, like, there's a sap for that. I think, like, yeah, I would imagine that if a fer-de-lance grew on planet Earth, planet Earth probably also naturally grew a remedy to cure you of a fer-de-lance bite. That's what I think.

Starting point is 00:41:46 Um, it's kind of one of those things. It's like, I can't prove that, but it's like, it's like, uh, it's a balance of nature.

Starting point is 00:41:52 Yeah. I think, I think you're probably right about that because we have to think about all the things that we have no fucking idea right now that are around us that could cure something. I mean, for all you know, we could find the cure for cancer and chocolate,

Starting point is 00:42:03 you know, like something or cocoa beans. Like it, I'm not saying that's what we're going to do. I'm saying, like, there could be, it could be the things where the answers are there all along, and when you look at human history, that is kind of what it is. People are like, oh, shit, wow. You know, they started with the rock, and they're like, well, you could mold that into a round thing, and it'll be a wheel.

Starting point is 00:42:21 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You know, it's, the answer is just pulling carving down the statue a little more over time but the amazon is just the ultimate to me like as i was telling you i'm obsessed with it because it's the ultimate like symbol of it all because it's where it's just more wild yeah it's everything's crazy it's the last it's the last true frontier of humanity i would say i mean the ocean too but there's way more in the Amazon than there is in the ocean, I would imagine. Yeah, as far as just species and things that are significant to mankind, sure. Yeah, I think so.

Starting point is 00:42:54 When you say significant to mankind, what do you mean? Like we could go in the Amazon. I definitely think that a city could be found that people go, oh, yeah, that's El Dorado. Oh, yeah, that's Manoa. Oh, yeah, that's Ziput. Oh, yeah, that's this culture city that people have been looking for. Boom. You know, like our minds are opened up to a whole civilization.

Starting point is 00:43:16 But you don't think we could find 10,000 leagues under the sea where we've never been? I mean we talk about having – not traversing as humanity a lot of the Amazon, which is very true. That's one part of the Earth. What's the percentage of the Earth that's covered in water again? I'm going to say the wrong number if I say... I want to say it's more than 70%.

Starting point is 00:43:34 It's a lot. Whatever it is, it's a lot. More than 65%. And I'm also not... I don't remember the number, the percentage of what we've actually known, explored, but it's low. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's very low. You think there could be crazy shit down there? the percentage of what we've actually known explored but it's low oh yeah yeah so you don't

Starting point is 00:43:45 think there could be crazy shit down there um well i'm not ever gonna say never i would love i would think it's fucking damn i didn't mean to cuss but you can say whatever this is new jersey i would think i would think it's crazy if there was something um you know giant living down at the bottom of the ocean but the problem is you got to think about like uh the pressure that would be on a giant um you know if you're talking about finding something that's very small like like uh not not necessarily microscopic beings but but small uh beings that live down in the ocean that we've never actually seen before uh aquatic life that we've never seen before sure i mean i think there's probably millions of species,

Starting point is 00:44:27 maybe not millions, but thousands. Definitely millions. Maybe so, of species that we've never seen before that are this big. But if we're talking about finding a megalodon that's been living at the bottom of the ocean, probably not. You just got to think of the pressure

Starting point is 00:44:41 that would be on that being, how it would be pushing out against the water around it. It much pressure on it and it would have to eat a sufficient amount of calories to stay alive and how's it going to find those calories if we don't have evidence of of a whole plethora of prey down there that are massive enough for a megalodon something like that to feed on you know what i mean like i know the giant squids go down to the bottom of the ocean sperm whales go down to the bottom of the ocean but these are kind of anomalous things that are exceptions sure um i'm not a wildlife biologist but i think you're thinking about the underworld or the under ocean species a little bit yeah centric to just what we know though yeah oh yeah like i'm and not to go like crazy with shit but

Starting point is 00:45:26 did you see danny's episodes with jack sarfati recently oh my god yeah jack is on fire but yeah you know jack is one of those guys who definitely comments on 100 of things when he should be commenting on like 60 i'm guessing so there's got to be some crazy bullshit in there but one i'll tell you the one time where where they were they were talking about danny was asking him if there are aliens or something living under the ocean he's like oh yeah no i i know i've seen it i i've been told by the guys who've seen it and i've been there yeah you know you hear that and you're like what if he's right about

Starting point is 00:46:06 that one what if there's like you know they figured out depressurizing down by where you know the the crust meets the core so to speak there's something between those two but either way yeah you know that there's no way to say there isn't. Oh, yeah, I'm never going to say that. Yeah, dude, I'm all yours to anything. It's funny when people like that speak so confidently. Yes, it's very funny. You're like, you've got to be full of shit. But would you speak that confidently if you weren't?

Starting point is 00:46:38 Here's the thing about him, and I would. I'm not talking about him in particular. No, no, but he's a great example. And for people out there who have not seen those podcasts, I shit you not. They are two of my favorite podcasts ever. Like I've probably listened to both of them three to four times now. But you know – like with Jack, he is smart as hell. He does have a real resume.

Starting point is 00:47:04 He's got proof for some of the things he talks about with, I'm not talking about like his encounters and stuff like that, but some of the work he did as a physicist with the CIA. There's some tape of that and everything. And you know he knows a lot of people. The guy name drops someone every fucking two seconds. Oh, I know, I know. It's so funny.

Starting point is 00:47:22 But like if you're not from this part of the world like he's a new yorker and he's like it's hard to explain but there's there's people from this area new york new jersey you know probably up boston stuff like that where it's like they're they're a dick they're a little crazy but they know they're a dick they know they're a little crazy they expect you to know that and you're supposed to like them for it and it's funny okay and it's and like they're making you laugh at the same time which they get a lot of joy out of yeah yeah i'm friends with a lot of people like that so when i hear a guy like him talk i've known so many jacks in my life like it just lights me up but yeah it was a culture shock to me seeing his episode because i was telling you

Starting point is 00:48:05 earlier i'm a texas boy yeah like we're used to everybody being very polite yeah now and if and if you're a little bit if if you're not even you don't have to be rude but if you're not polite you're just neutral we think you're rude yeah well so it was a culture shock for me watching that episode i was like i was like man but even like when he's calling hey you dumb little fuck yeah like even when he's doing that he's like learn come on learn like it's like and danny got it perfectly like danny is so fascinated by people from new jersey and new york he's like i understand what this is but like they come by honestly still though you know some of it's got to be bullshit because he comments on fucking everything but then you're thinking like what things are real like what things has this guy really been Still, though, you know some of it's got to be bullshit because he comments on fucking everything.

Starting point is 00:48:47 But then you're thinking, like, what things are real? Like, what things has this guy really been around and seen? And you don't know. Your guess is as good as mine. But there were a few moments in those podcasts that got me like, woo. But that was one of them where I was like, I wonder if he did get shown something on that, you know? Well, you know, man, like I think about when I, what's funny is I have never been somebody who, I don't know where we got from El Dorado, but I'm going to bring it back.

Starting point is 00:49:15 We're coming back. Don't worry. I'll keep you on track. You keep going. What's funny is when, before I got into studying, like really, I've always been fascinated, like I described earlier, I've always been fascinated in ancient history. But, you know, ever since I was a kid, all the way until today, but it wasn't until I started like viciously studying ancient history and studying, you know, one thing that one thing you have to study is like oral tradition, which is, uh, legends from ancient cultures. Well, when you look into that, you find a lot of weird stuff, uh, that pertains to perhaps something to do with aliens, perhaps something to do with, with, uh, perhaps something to do with with uh perhaps something to do with some kind of higher being that was in the sky above people like um when uh when western chroniclers were going across north america they were gathering stories and uh this is where the um i think it's the runestone was

Starting point is 00:50:19 found this is the same state so golly was a runestone found in kansas or kentucky i'm not an expert on the runestone, but it was a culture that was there in that same area. It was like a mound builder culture. And so, like in North America, we don't have pyramids, we have earthen mounds, which served the same purpose as pyramids. A lot of times they were tombs, and a lot of times there was a place that the king of this civilization would stand on to address his people. Well, a lot of these – Earthen – you described it as earthen mounds though? Earthen, which is – yeah, yeah.

Starting point is 00:50:49 So it's made out of earth. So we don't have like – we don't have the same kind of – not everywhere in the United States do we have the same kind of bedrock that people use. That would be used to build pyramids, stone pyramids. And, uh, but the oral traditions had passed down. Um, and dude, there were people in the 1700s, uh, 1600s that were living in the United States that were seeing like silver, silver orbs flying through the sky that had lights on them. I mean, this, um, this is just something that I learned in passing recently, but I verified it. This is like at the beginning of the summer, I learned this, but this isn't my forte, but it's just interesting. You come across a lot of weird stuff about higher beings. I don't necessarily

Starting point is 00:51:35 know if aliens exist, that it's just some small green being, or if it's like us, or if it's some kind of, you know, God, whatever. But you look at ancient cultures, look at everything that they do in the name of their gods, you know? All of the feats that we see throughout ancient history, almost all of them were achieved solely for these people's God. So, it looks like religion built society basically you know and that's the fascinating thing though with like the whole point of like trying to figure it out if we did figure it out think of all the even today where there's more like you know a main three to five right think of if like all of them were wrong or even just one of them was right and the others all found out. That's a huge meaning of life crisis.

Starting point is 00:52:30 Oh man, I know it, dude. Yeah, it's crazy. So yeah, so I just wonder, you know, a lot of times like, man, I wish when I hear guys like Sarfati talking, it makes me wonder, you know, how much of that is actually true. And so that's kind of where I get, that's really what fascinates me about studying lost cities, you know, El Dorado, Manoa, Ziput, these lost cities that are in the Amazon. I really only study it like an armchair explorer for now. I, you know, I need to build up like contacts to go down to the Amazon and everything. But man, there's just so many, so many rabbit holes to go down to the Amazon and everything. But man, there's just so many rabbit holes to go down. And I'm not the type of person that, you know, we were talking about wildlife biology in the deep ocean. I'm open to just about anything, you know?

Starting point is 00:53:16 Well, that's good, man. But I mean, we got all the way there from talking about a possible snake bite killing Percy Fawcett's son. Oh, I know. I know. Or something like that. I know it. You know what I was going to say? On the road. What I was going to say about that is when we were talking about medicinal cures to different

Starting point is 00:53:33 ailments that can happen to people, well, I was wrong in saying that there isn't any type of medical, natural medical intervention that could save somebody. I'm working with a guy in Guyana or Guyana. Have you ever heard of that in South America? It's a small country, English speaking. Yeah, G-U-Y-A-N-A. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And sometimes the Y is replaced with an I. But I was, I'm talking to an expeditionary group in Guyana about leading an expedition, maybe sometime early 2025, late 24. And he's telling me that there are all kinds of stories. And a lot of the bedrock there is actual bedrock that could be used to build stone monuments. And there's a little bit of

Starting point is 00:54:22 evidence for that. But like the deep Amazonian jungles of Guyana haven't really been thoroughly explored. Almost nowhere has been in the Amazon. And so what this guy tells me, his name is Anders Anderson, and he has his own expeditionary group. He tells me that there are people out there who have some kind of remedy that like Western doctors won't go deep into the jungle and study these people. For what reason? Probably to make money. But there are people there who can get bitten by a Fertilant snake. And he's seen it happen.

Starting point is 00:54:56 The local indigenous Guyana people will get bitten by a Fertilant snake and they'll go back to their village. They won't go to like a western hospital or you know something like that yeah and he'll see them again in a few months later so they have and so there's something going on there he doesn't know what it is he hasn't been to their villages but he sees the people come out of the villages to interact you know i mean they're halfway like quote yeah they're not yeah they're not the lost tribes that shoot you on sight with a six-foot arrow. Although those do exist still. Those exist, yes. And so he'll see them the next week.

Starting point is 00:55:30 And so he's like, how's your snake bite? And they're like, oh, good, good. No, we good, fam. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so he's like, there's some kind of – there's some way that they're treating it back in their villages um that's probably some ancient indigenous uh cure to a fertile ants or maybe any kind of snake bite that western doctors aren't going in and studying do the same thing is happening in western peru it'd be interesting you know you should ask paul about it there are people there that will get bit that will get bitten by uh animals that have rabies

Starting point is 00:56:03 and people will survive there's there's like cures for ailments that are out there and you know there's only uh 30 documented cases i could be butchering this but there's only like 30 documented cases cases of people somehow surviving a rabies bite uh in western countries right in per, there's like several dozen cases of people getting bitten, and then they survive. And in some of those cases, it's like their genetics are able to fight off rabies because they've been, people in their lineage have been bitten by animals with rabies so many times, they have like a natural immunity to it. And there's also rumors that there's like cures to it that are deeper in the Amazon with these indigenous people that have been living there since the beginning of time.

Starting point is 00:56:49 So there's little hints that there really is stuff out there. I know Paul talks about it all the time, but for big things like a fertile ant's bite, which is 100% fatality rate to somebody like you and I, or rabies, which is 100% mortality rate. There are cures out there in the Amazon that people are using to survive these things. So... It's amazing. I mean, there's a... There's so many little things that are still unknown. Well, there's many things that are still completely unknown in the Amazon, but there's so many simple things that like, you don't even take into account that are just deadly there. Yeah, man. Um, so when I, what I was talking about a second ago was what I think about, like when I think about, man, what could have happened to Percy and his son and their whole expedition team? Well,

Starting point is 00:57:40 when I'm going through the jungle in say Chiapas, man, these Fertilant snakes, they coil up their, you know, maybe. How big do they get? They have a wide range in sizes. I mean, they can go from being two feet long to sometimes they're six to eight feet long. And it ranges wildly. But their color pattern is that of a, a yeah if you want to pull it up yeah so if you looked up like i'll put a picture of this in the corner of the screen yeah so you know they look like so if you click on that first one right here yeah just any of them

Starting point is 00:58:14 i mean they look like mud and dark leaves yeah it looks like a pretzel right there yeah yeah exactly pretzel so they they blend in very easily and so you know i know that they were probably wearing snake boots but um you know you get bitten by one of those guys and you're done you're finito now do they do you have to like step on them or like kick them or something for them to attack or do they they'll just bite you and these guys they come like uh dude it's it's it's it's so dangerous and this isn't the amazon the amazon's probably likely more dangerous but it's so dangerous that when i stay at resorts in chiapas which is southern mexico which is very similar i mean you're looking if you go into the lakandone jungle in chiapas

Starting point is 00:58:56 it's going to look like the amazon it's it's pretty similar there's more bedrock there that that the maya used to build temples the amazon Amazon, it's all clay. Real quick to all my discord people out there, the Julian Dory discord is officially live. I put the link down in the description below. So go hit that, join the community and say what's up. There's all kinds of features in there and I look forward to hearing from you guys. Let's get it popping. So that's the hard part about guys like Oriana looking for this city of El Dorado, if he came across it, if it wasn't populated anymore by that time. It won't take long to tell you Neutral's ingredients.

Starting point is 00:59:38 Vodka, soda, natural flavors. So, what should we talk about? No sugar added? Neutral. Refreshingly simple. The Amazon has completely grown over it, and all of the earthen structures that are there are completely grown over and Spanish explorers aren't going to be able to recognize where they're at. Um, so where they're at all that, what would be bedrock is all completely clay. The bedrock is very, very, very deep in the Western Amazon, but you go to the central Eastern Amazon, it gets to be more bedrock where you can have where people can build stone monuments that would be very visible earthen earthen monuments aren't going to go away but they're

Starting point is 01:00:30 going to be grown over and you're going to think it's natural so um yeah man when you're out there in the jungle oh my god um i haven't seen anybody else talk about this but one of my biggest fears is um in my whole life I've never been bitten or never been stung by a bee. But in the Amazon and in Central America, there were laboratories that were trying to take, that were trying to take like the American honeybee and African bees. And they were, they wanted to make the Africanized honeybee. And the American bee, the American honeybee and the African bee are very docile bees that can be used to farm honey, you know? And so they wanted to make an

Starting point is 01:01:10 even more docile, like slave army of these bees that would produce honey like crazy. Well, what they ended up making by taking these two very docile breeds was these bees from hell. And they escaped whatever facility that they were in. I want to say it was these bees from hell. And they escaped whatever facility that they were in. I want to say it was probably just one facility. I've read about it just like one time. And so now you have billions of Africanized honeybees. Oh, with a bee. Yeah, yeah. That hover in armies, multiple armies all across the Amazon. The whole Amazon, they're all across the Amazon and in the jungles from Panama all the way up to Southern Mexico. So you're walking around the jungle and you hear that. And it's an army of millions of these Africanized honeybees that fly

Starting point is 01:01:58 way up in the canopy. And if they think anything's going to threaten their queen, they attack it. And so these guys are super aggressive. They'll chase you 10, 12 miles an hour for over a mile away from, I guess, where their colony is at that time. They'll chase you for over a mile. And the problem is when you're in the jungle, at least in Central America, you have to worry about, you know, your natural instinct that would be if you're exploring something, you want to stay along a body of water because that's where, you know, an ancient civilization, like if I'm a guy like me who's looking for a lost city or lost ruins or even like a satellite town. So you're going to want to stay along some kind of body of water,

Starting point is 01:02:47 fairly near that kind of higher up where, you know, rain isn't going to pull up and there's a whole lot of things you want to look for. But anyways, you know, the more you talk about this, the more I feel like, you know, you and Paul going down there and doing your thing and me hearing about it in this podcast studio is nice, nice and good. That's enough. One day, one day you should come down i was talking to danny about that yeah no we've been we've been working on trying to go with paul for like a year but he's been back and forth so much and then when he's been there it's been like disastrous so like oh really like if we went down there with him and i mean he's committed like if goes down while we're there he's got to go like he's got

Starting point is 01:03:24 you know and it's probably not stuff that we can we can do with him so we will do it at some point but like he's paul walks the talk man like he's all business when he's down there but at some point like you definitely gotta go down there with him for sure it's just crazy hearing about all these things there's like there's another bug out there. I think this was in David Grand's book. I might be wrong about that, but I think it was in there. There's another bug out there. I don't remember the name of it. It just looks apparently like a normal fly or something like that.

Starting point is 01:03:55 Oh, a bot fly. Is that right? Maybe. It'll land on your lips. It goes for human lips. And it'll bite you. You'll feel it. Maybe you won't. And you won't and you won't

Starting point is 01:04:06 notice a damn thing and then 10 years later out of nowhere boom you're dead no way like it just kills you years later okay and like you may not have even known you got bit so when you look at all the different things they're like yeah i mean anytime you go out every time paul goes out in there like he's risking his life like crazy. Yeah. It's a whole different jungle than the concrete jungle here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. To give people an idea of the difference between where Paul's at and where I go.

Starting point is 01:04:38 So Paul, he's kind of, I'd say he's a mix between like, you know, he talks about, he talks about the wildlife, but he's also like an ecological conservationist. You know what I mean? He's really important. You know, to him, it's the conservation of the Amazon is very, very important. For me, what I care about is locating and mapping ruins that are in Central America. I like to know like how much more is out there that we can discover. That's a lot easier than, you know, Paul, when he goes out, he's like drifting into the jungle where there's not a whole lot of direction. Correct. I mean, it's just this vast expanse that goes way beyond the horizon. In Central America, you know where the end of

Starting point is 01:05:24 this jungle is going to end. If it's 50 miles that way, it still America, you know where the end of this jungle is going to end. If it's 50 miles that way, it still ends, you know, and several miles in any direction. And anytime I go, it's never been overnight. It's all day out and then back, you know? Yeah. And then I have like a little bungalow, whatever thing that I'll stay at. Danger is still similar. It's more likely that I'll run into, it increases the likelihood with the jungles being so much smaller that I run into people, which is like a, that's something that I'm kind of just becoming aware of. Like I'm planning a, I want to go, I want to do an expedition along the Usama Center River. And there are refugees that, I guess it's like a recent war

Starting point is 01:06:04 that was going on in Guatemala, but there are refugees that are I guess it's like a recent war that was going on in Guatemala, but there are refugees that are being hunted by the Guatemalan government that live out near where the Maya ruins are. And to make money, they go and loot the ruins and then they sell stuff on the black market. That's like one way that they make money. And so you run into those guys, you know, how does that turn out? I don't know. It's never happened to me.

Starting point is 01:06:22 Well, let's, yeah, let's not find out. Yeah. Christ. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, you're not going to find looters in the Amazon, but I mean, you, you know, you could sure get, you could sure get lost and you could run into like, uh, you know, I know he said, he said, he's had run-ins with loggers and, oh, well you could run into the, to the uncontacted as well. That's not going to happen in Central America. There's, there aren't really uncontacted. There's like farmers that are way out in the middle of nowhere that will shoot you if

Starting point is 01:06:47 you if you're on their property but you know there's no uncontacted tribes left in central america yeah i mean like you said he's got the and again we said this early on but we're referring to paul rosalie but he deals with the loggers who are being funded the gold miners which is now a huge fucking problem down there that's something that like i wasn't even aware of until i first got to know him but that's crazy what they're doing to some of those places like if you've seen some of the pictures of that oh yeah oh my god it's just like it's like it's a giant scar it's a barren wasteland in the middle of what used to be yeah it looks like it looks like uh it looks like the glowing deserts in fallout you ever play yeah yeah yeah i'll put a i'll have a picture of that in the middle of what used to be yeah it looks like it looks like uh it looks like the glowing deserts in fallout yeah yeah yeah i'll put a i'll have a picture of that in the corner

Starting point is 01:07:29 of the screen for that last part right there we just talked about but you know the uncontacted tribes though which we don't know how many there are we can estimate how many we can estimate the total number of people that exist like that, but we really don't know. These are – and this is what we're going to get to. I've been brewing on it to get to like the full history of South America and how far back it goes. So we can get there in a sec. But like these are the people who in some cases were the victims of the rubber boom in the early 1900s and have decided that all human beings who come in are evil yep which i fully understand after that that's another thing paul talked about in my episode with him but you know when henry ford and some of those guys were trying to create like fordlandia down here and

Starting point is 01:08:16 they were just ravenized i'm gonna make up a word but like they were just killing all these people making them making them work for i I guess, like Fordlandia. And a lot of the victims were these tribes. And so they don't shoot you on sight. They shoot you before you know they're in sight. And they don't shoot you with bullets. They shoot you with six-foot bamboo-tipped arrows that are, you know. People don't realize how big arrows are like like bows

Starting point is 01:08:46 and arrows you know in movies they look like they're three feet new they're taller i'm only 5 10 they're taller than me sometimes hollywood had to do that for the screen grab yeah and when those things hit you you wish you got shot with a bullet yes and so you know he's had guys that he's like been next to who get hit with those things. And it's just how they're wired, like how things are passed down because it's like, oh, that's evil, get rid of it. countries who have at least part of their real estate comprised of the amazon down there the places that none of these governments and no people have ever been is there's a lot yeah there's a lot there that they haven't seen and so we are guessing oh what could be in there i always said like if there's a good place for the aliens to hide it's underwater in the amazon yeah you know like like they're paul's talked about there being pyramids out there and stuff,

Starting point is 01:09:45 which, which we can get to for sure, but pyramids that no one's ever even had a concept of. And you don't know, but it's, it's just such a wild, wild place. And again, like, I want to get to the beginning of this, if you don't mind. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So we know of Christopher Columbus sailing over here in 1492. We know of the Cortez with the Aztecs and basically call it like the 14 to 600 – or to 1600 type conquests. Yeah, the conquistadors. Where then they first brought people over, got rid of some of the Native American tribes across the Americas, pushed some farther into land. In America, we ended up pushed some farther into land. In America,

Starting point is 01:10:25 we ended up developing like all our land. And so obviously those tribes only exist as they have little reservations now, which that's a whole separate conversation. But in South America, as we've laid out, because of the terrain, there's a lot of places where different tribes known and unknown exist. When you're looking at the history of South America, though, you seem to think that there is a strong possibility, correct me if I'm wrong here, if I'm misrepresenting what you say, that there were conquests to at least South America long before Columbus was here. I think you talked about like the Phoenicians possibly coming there? Well, that would have been Central America.

Starting point is 01:11:05 Yeah, yeah. So I don't know if you want me to go all the way down this rabbit hole. No, please. That's why we're talking about. So Central America, yeah, there's some evidence that there were people from the Old World. So we call it the Old World. You're looking at Africa, Europe, Middle East. That would be the Old World, Northern Africa.

Starting point is 01:11:27 Old World archaeology, that's what it's referred to. There's some evidence that there were people from that area that had visited. And there's also some scarce, sparse evidence for ancient Chinese people sailing over to North America. But anyways, so at the site of La Venta, which I was at in January of this year, there's a monument called Monument 13 that was constructed by the Olmecs. The Olmecs, they reigned from about 1600 BC to about 300 BC. And this monument is estimated to be around 1000 to 900 BC. So it's called Monument 13, The Traveler. The reason it's called The Traveler is because there's a foot logogram, and there's a couple other logograms that are like very, very early forms of Central American writing system.

Starting point is 01:12:19 And so when it's deciphered, they think that this is this is naming this person the traveler and so he's got he's got a um he's got a what looks to be a turban on if it's not a turban it's insanely voluminous long hair which is not common at all in the olmec world all olmec leaders are depicted as being bald as having no facial hair and no head hair okay so this guy either had long voluminous flowing hair which it doesn't look like that it looks like he's wearing a turban that's flowing behind his behind his head he's carrying a flag and he's got pointed shoes and he has like a little kind of like a beard like you do but just a little bit longer this is a pube yeah yeah but he's got a little bit of pointy beard a pointy mustache and his features don't

Starting point is 01:13:06 look at all olmec so number one if he's wearing a turban that's great but there's no evidence at all of turbans anywhere in any of the americas at any point there's also no evidence of facial hair in the americas um why is is that like an evolutionary thing yeah yeah so so it's traditionally thought that ancient Americans came from Asia, right? They migrated over the Bering Strait. Well, if you look at Asians, there's not a whole lot of facial hair going on there either. And if it is, it's not these thick, robust beards that you would see in the Middle East, right? So it looks like as people migrated over, you know, tens of thousands of years out of Africa into Asia,

Starting point is 01:13:47 for whatever reason, they lost that evolutionary trait of growing thick facial hair. And then so by the time they get to the Americas, it's almost completely gone. So Native Americans aren't growing facial hair. In North, Central, or South America, I'm sure there was some, but there's not evidence that it was a prominent thing. And so you have this guy who's wearing a turban, he's got a big beard, and he's wearing pointy shoes, which are not seen anywhere in the Americas ever. He's not only seen on that, he's also seen on a Stila, I think it's like a Stila 17, Monument 40, something.

Starting point is 01:14:24 And he's depicted, the same guy with the turban, beard and pointy shoes is depicted talking to somebody who looks traditionally Olmec with this shark effigy above him. And what's interesting is, is this is the oldest depiction of a shark anywhere in the ancient Americas. And the Olmecs, despite their proximity to the gulf coast are don't there's no evidence that they were seafaring that they were building boats and sailing out into the gulf coast so we don't have any evidence or there's and we don't have any settlements olmec settlements along the gulf either it looks like they were deeper into the jungle near where the rivers would be so that they could so they could harvest maize which is just corn that's what that's what

Starting point is 01:15:02 made the olmecs powerful do we know how big that community got at its height? Like how many people were talking here? No, I haven't seen estimates for how many Olmec people there were, but there were three capitals. You had Tres Sapotes, San Lorenzo, and La Venta. Okay. And where are they today? That's two of them are in Veracruz, Mexico, next to the Gulf. And then the other one, Tabasco, I'm sorry. The other one, La Venta is in Tabasco, but they're all fairly near each other. And they just found another one.

Starting point is 01:15:33 It's a site. Anybody who's watching, you could look it up. It's called Aguada Phoenix. It's a one mile long raised platform that they found deep into the jungle through LIDAR scans. And this one's uh i think it's on the mexican side of the border next to guatemala this is deep in the jungle way more way more east than anybody thought that the olmecs went and it would be the biggest

Starting point is 01:15:55 central american site ever found it will be when they actually go to it start excavating it um so they carve this depiction and then they also find a clay stucco head at this place called san at an olmec um capital called san lorenzo and it's this olmec head you could probably look it up um but uh yeah if you look at an olmec head well if you look up olmec head well this is going to show you the the giant olmec head so this is all this is all southern mexico just remind everybody now we're in southern mexico um but you could look up like clay head san lorenzo it's it's a tough thing to find on the internet i mean what we're talking about nobody is talking about this at all but the olmecs they always depict themselves as being bald

Starting point is 01:16:40 wearing these caps and when they're not wearing a cap they have they have bald hair and all of the other depictions around mesoamerica like cave drawings depict them bald as well so there's it's tough to find on the internet but there's a depiction it's like a 3d rendering of a man exactly that same way with a um with a turban and like a goatee style beard and so what's interesting is this was all about 950 BC, let's call it. That's the year that that actual... All three of these monuments. So the one that depicts the traveler, the one that depicts the same traveler talking to an Olmec person, and this San Lorenzo 3D stucco life-size head. When did we find this? The very first Olmec monument is found in the late 1800s,

Starting point is 01:17:26 and it wasn't officially excavated until like 1925. Like basically exactly the same time Percy is in the jungle. Dude. The first Olmec head is found. A lot happened between like sub-1840 and 1940. Such a cool time period, isn't it? Like, whoa. Yeah, like people started exploring efficiently.

Starting point is 01:17:43 You know what I mean? We had just enough technology to do it efficiently and then dude like a pin cushion the whole earth gets gets excavated and uncovered just within i don't know 80 years at the most like that that second wave that second age of exploration because you had like uh you had oriana that wave of exploration but a whole lot of people died and it wasn't that efficient. Yeah. And then you have the next wave.

Starting point is 01:18:09 I had Matt LaCroix in here. In 1906, British archaeologist Arl Stein set out on an expedition to Central Asia. His mission was to find treasures of the greatest lost civilization mankind has ever known. Upon arriving in the city of Donghuang, he encountered a Buddhist monk who had told him that he had discovered a secret library known as the Cave of a Thousand Buddhas. Okay, in that library, he found these manuscripts from all over the world, from different like Hindu texts and all these things, but one of them had an ancient map in it. And the map depicted Atlantis as a region that existed from west of the Pillars of Hercules as a region all the way to the Yucatan. And that means that those ruins off of Cuba are part of Atlantis.

Starting point is 01:18:53 And we ended up doing a couple episodes together. But he, one of the things he looks at is Eridu and when that was found. And like the timeline of that even matches like a lot of these same years we talk about like the early 1900s and then like right after world war one like 1920 there's more excavations supposedly stuff like that yeah yeah and like now we're talking about south america like there's so at per Fawcett, his last expedition, 1924, 1925, started in the early 1900s over there. It's crazy how much humanity from, like, across the globe put resources into that in that period. Yeah, well, and what's interesting, and I will wrap this up,

Starting point is 01:19:38 I'll finish my point about the Phoenicians, but what's really interesting is at that time, there weren't celebrities like we have today, how we keep up with like, you know, we were talking about football players, you know, keep up with celebrity sports players, singers. You know, this wasn't as common. Who we kept up with at that time was political and royal figures and explorers who were writing reports and to get published in a newspaper. Those were the celebrities. And that's why this kind of stuff was funded because the public actually cared about that at the time. So those are like your proto-celebrities were the explorers. So what's interesting is all of these monuments are dated to be around 950 BC. And they just know that from the very scant, basically, I don't want to go down

Starting point is 01:20:28 this whole rabbit hole of how like carbon dating and relative dating works, but they just know by carbon dating and relative dating as to when these artifacts would have been created. And so it's about 950 BC. Well, what's really weird is exactly 950 BC, right around that time, the Phoenicians out in, um, near Lebanon in the Eastern side of the Mediterranean sea are launching expeditions out of the gates of Hercules, which are, that's the, that's the, um, yeah, it's the Strait of Gibraltar or did I, I may, I may have called that, I think I misspoke earlier because I said that people came from Asia across the Strait of Gibraltar. I meant to say the Bering Strait is how they came down to North America. The Phoenicians went out of the Strait of Gibraltar,

Starting point is 01:21:18 which is actually the gates of Hercules was at the time. And they launched seafaring expeditions. They're the best sailors of the ancient world, old world at least, but maybe of all the ancient world. And so they wanted to sail all the way around the coast of Africa and then back. And they were going to be the first civilization to do that. Well, they didn't just send out one boat, they sent out many boats. And several of those boats went missing and one or two of them came back and so what they what ended up happening was they were sending boats out of the Strait of Gibraltar west and what they found later on like in recent times when we've sent mock boats out there and see what happens how the current ticks them if you go too far west of the um northwestern coast of Africa if you sail out too

Starting point is 01:22:02 far west into the Atlantic Ocean it will pull you down into the Bahamas and into the Caribbean. And so, what some people theorize happens, and I mean, this is like a frontier of archaeology, what some archaeologists would call fringe, just as much as people talk about ancient lost civilizations like Atlantis. This is fringed in a similar way like that. They think it's possible, and I say they think, but it's just a small group of archaeologists really think that it's possible that some lost Venetians sailed too far west, and then they end up drifting down into the Atlantic, into the Bahamas, through the Caribbean, and then they hit the Gulf Coast. And they may have been, you know, when they arrive in this new area,

Starting point is 01:22:47 they may have been touring the different areas. What years are we talking again with that? Both of these things happened. The Phoenician expedition and the time that the monuments that the Olmecs made depicting the traveler, these are both happening at 950 B.C. Oh, shit. Yeah, these things are both happening at 950 BC.

Starting point is 01:23:06 And I can't remember if you did that. There's so many details today. So I apologize if a couple things we come back to. But what was the full history of the Phoenicians again? Oh, I couldn't. I'm not an expert on the Phoenicians. Just as they relate to the New World. But the Phoenicians are really like just a Middle Eastern

Starting point is 01:23:26 religion, similar to the... They came... They're similar to the Canaanites. They maybe descend from the Canaanites, but that might be a question for Matt to answer. I'm not an expert on the Phoenicians. I just know that they were doing this at this time, and there's no archaeologists who dispute the fact that the Phoenicians were actually doing this. The disputed idea is did they drift across the Atlantic Ocean into the Bahamas, Caribbeans, and the Gulf Coast? And so if they did, then – So if they did, they may have been some of the first people to make contact, right? God, I wonder what that would be like.

Starting point is 01:24:03 Wouldn't it be amazing? Yeah, I mean that... Oh my God. So we don't have evidence that they were in the Yucatan or that they were in the Caribbean, but in the Yucatan and in the Caribbean, these cultures hadn't grown to the height of the Olmecs yet. They weren't riding like the Olmecs were. So it's possible that the Phoenicians were stopping at different places and then they came across a society that was like a higher culture and then they communicated for a little bit. But what's really interesting is that there are Phoenician writings of a vessel that came back from the far west of that ocean. They sailed too far west and they found a continent or they found something and then came back. And it's just very,

Starting point is 01:24:40 very scant writing evidence that's left of that. It really doesn't describe it very much. It doesn't even mention it being like a huge continent that they found, which would be – What is the nature of that evidence? They're like – so in the Middle East, the writings that you're going to find are like a lot of times clay tablets, maybe this big or maybe this big. And do we know what –

Starting point is 01:25:00 It's going to be written in – Like how long they were written after? Do we have that information? No, no. I don't think that that evidence is known. But that's not really my area of expertise either. Fair enough. So – but yeah, man.

Starting point is 01:25:12 I mean it's – you can make a pretty hard or a pretty good case that, yeah, maybe there were some Phoenician vessels that sailed over and landed in the Gulf Coast and could have sailed back. But maybe realistically they didn't. They died off, and their DNA is so weak that it doesn't trace back down 3,000 years later to today. Like we can't find Phoenician DNA in modern-day Olmec people. You know what I mean? So it's a tough thing, but, yeah, there's certainly some stories that are like that of people who were here before Columbus. Now, I don't know as far as there's some ideas that the Templars were here, something like that, on behalf of Spain and that they were aware of Aztec religion. And then so when they invaded Mexico, they were able to like perfectly execute their invasion.

Starting point is 01:26:06 Yes. I don't know that I subscribe to that. But what I think is weird is that Moctezuma, you know, and all the Aztecs believe that Quetzalcoatl, which was their god, similar to Varicocha, was going to come back in 1519, and Cortes arrived. I mean, that's really strange, you know? But, you know. Because he, I mean, he just, yeah, they laid waste to those people because they thought he was a god. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's kind of interesting how that played out.

Starting point is 01:26:38 But yeah, there may be some, and I would certainly think that it's likely that there were people who were seafaring from the ancient world that drifted off and ended up somewhere in the americas um so yeah that's that's pretty much my views as far as as far as pre-visitors before columbus yeah i've been having these conversations on and off podcasts a lot recently with whether it be different guests who come in here or people i'd where things come up in life that we're talking about that involve stories and being passed down and and stuff and you know the the difficult thing about any history but particularly the farther back you go ancient history and thousands of years is you're working with things that

Starting point is 01:27:23 in that case you discover right, you discover, right? So you discover tablets, you discover these small resources that people even had to write things down back then. And first, you got to figure out when they're from and try to get it as close to the possible exact date that there is. And then secondly, you got to figure out how removed they are. Time, distance, which people they're talking about. And then probably thirdly, you got to figure out if other people had that story communication global society now where, you know, just statistically speaking, people change stories. You tell me a story right now about something in your life, there's probably a good chance if I'm telling that same story to someone else tomorrow that 5% of it or something or 3% of it changes.

Starting point is 01:28:20 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Right? And it's an honest thing. It's not like you're lying. It's a natural thing human beings do. And so you think every time 3% of a story changes, I mean, it doesn't take too long before you get about the meaning of our life and human beings and why we exist in different cultures and stuff like that. But, you know, I'm constantly trying to pick out what what holds water. And I also get stressed by the idea sometimes, I would imagine you do too, but don't let me speak for you, that like, you're studying a bunch of things and you're hoping

Starting point is 01:29:09 you're going to be 1% right about it, because maybe it will explain some things. But there's so much that, you know, you could have all the technology in the world and it doesn't matter. Like, you're trying to study history here, shit that already happened, unless you can time travel and go see what it was, you don't really know. Yeah. know yeah yeah man that's uh i think about that a lot with with south america south america is is probably um when i was on when i was on danny's podcast we got talking about like uh we got talking about people look at people looking at ancient egypt to be some of the evidence for a lost civilization like atlantis or something like that and man i really think that if you want to look at some very exceptional lost civilizations you got to look at

Starting point is 01:29:51 ancient south america and there are some things there that are totally completely inexplicable um it's it's if you have you ever seen have you ever seen the stone masonry of the granite that happens – that was made at Machu Picchu or Sacsayhuaman or Alente Tumbo, Cusco, Lima? Maybe, but it's not ringing a bell. Dude, there are stones there that are the size of this wall that are two feet thick that were moved in in inexplicable way people in yeah people and so that's that's the 12-sided stone that's on uh that is on one of the walls in Cusco and so that's what you're talking about yeah it's similar to that but but I mean yes that that's exactly it um all right I'll put this picture in the corner yeah so that's that's the 12-sided stone that's on one of the temple walls in Cusco, Lima. I'm sorry, Cusco, Peru.

Starting point is 01:30:48 And there's absolutely no explanation as to how the ancient architecture in a lot of these South American places was built. A lot of people think that it was built by a civilization that existed 12,000 years ago. A lot of people think it was actually done by the Inca, which were alive just in the 1400s. They were there for the Spanish conquering of Central and South America. And if you're looking for a true lost civilization – or I'm sorry, ancient lost lost technology, you got to look at these sites. They're made out of solid granite with far more, it had to be such, so much more complicated than any of these sites that are constructed in ancient Egypt. They're rounded, pillowed stones that look like they're fused together. You can't fit a hair between these stones. And the problem in ancient South America is that when you try to explain it, these sites are up on top of mountains and

Starting point is 01:31:51 ancient South Americans didn't have beasts of burden. Their biggest beast of burden was a llama. Like they didn't have, they didn't have giant oxen horses that could move these big stones. They had- So how did they get it up there? No, there's absolutely no explanation. Now, here's the thing that's really interesting, is that the source, like how I was saying how religion builds civilizations, the source of all that religion comes from somewhere in the Amazon. So when we're talking about the history of South America,

Starting point is 01:32:21 so South America, it looks like the ancient history in South America starts in these coastal civilizations near a place called Karal, Karal, Peru. And these are some of the, I think they are the very first pyramids in the entire world, built before the pyramids of Egypt. So Egypt, the very first pyramid is the Step Pyramid of Jojer at the Saqqara Necropolis. That was built in about 2650 BC. In 3300 BC, the ancient Peruvians were building their own pyramids in what's called like the Pyramid Valley on the coast of Peru. And so this is about 3000 BC.

Starting point is 01:33:03 And so there's this lineage of these cultures that are getting wiped out by these cataclysms, which are called like El Ninos or El Ninos that come in. And it's just this insane amount of torrential rain and flooding that would wipe out their civilizations. And so somewhere in there, the origins of the religion around Varicosha begins because civilization is recreating itself out of these floods. Well, you see the patterns of the civilization that's continuing and they're learning how to build structures that can withstand all of this rain and these cataclysmic events. And in South America, there's earthquakes all the time. So their buildings and their temples are falling down.

Starting point is 01:33:47 Well, then this big El Nino, El Nina comes in and wipes out their civilization and they disappear from the archeological record. And we know that because out there, it's very, very similar to Egypt. If you were to pull up a picture of the Valley of Pyramids or Valley of Moche Pyramids in Peru and look at it, it would look exactly like ancient Egypt.

Starting point is 01:34:07 It's very arid and the biological material is preserved very well. How do you spell that? Valley of Meche? Yeah, yeah, Valley of Pyramids and then Moche. That's not it right there, right? Valley of Pyramids. Yeah, yeah, so Moche is going to be spelled m-o-c-h-e yeah that that auto-corrected i don't know why i did that i had it auto-corrected to mice there we go all right boom i'll put that in the corner of the screen yeah so you go to images and then right there

Starting point is 01:34:40 tell me how much that looks like egypt like that top left one look at all of that that looks just like egypt it's very arid if i were to show you that and tell you it's ancient egypt you would Tell me how much that looks like Egypt, like that top left one. Look at all of that. That looks just like Egypt. It's very arid. If I were to show you that and tell you it's ancient Egypt, you would instantly believe me. And so, but people don't even know about that, that the Valley of Pyramids exists. Yeah. See that giant structure behind them and the little mortuary temples in front of it. It's built of the earth.

Starting point is 01:35:01 Now that's not, well, no, no, no. These are all stone. In South America, it's all stone. But this one we're looking, but that's what I'm saying. This these are all stone in south america it's all this one we're looking but that's what i'm saying this one we're looking at here it looks like it's earth in the back that might be that might be natural but they may have they may have used it but you see those structures are man-made and that's all made out of stone and this is this okay you confused me for one sec just because this was the first one i was clicked on this is stone all of it is okay

Starting point is 01:35:22 yeah yeah and you're saying that there's a similar feel to like the pyramid or the sphinx with this yeah yeah i mean it just it just looks similar it's it's not that there's any kind of connection okay and then this other one so there's two pictures here this other one was the one we were looking at and you're pointing you're pointing more towards this stuff in the foreground yes yes yes not this that that might be natural i don't think that that's a period i don't think but because that's clearly earth right there yeah so so anyways um you see this evolution from about 3300 bc and but these civilizations keep getting wiped out and you can tell that by looking at their buildings and and

Starting point is 01:36:03 you know other studies of of the area i won't go down that rabbit hole, but anyways, civilization kind of dies out after this cataclysm hits Peru and just wipes everything out. So then they're, they've tried to build so many cities on the, on the coastline of Peru that they have to flee higher into the Andes. So a very, very small population of people build this city called Chavin de Hontar, and it's less than a thousand people they estimate live there at first. And it looks like the conjoining of two different civilizations that live in the coastline, because one of them built U-shaped temples and the other one had sunken circular plazas. And so, we see these two different civilizations that are living on the coast of Peru around 3300 BC, 3000 BC. They both get wiped out by the same

Starting point is 01:36:55 cataclysm, and the survivors of that move into the high Andes, and they build their own civilization, Chavinde Hantar, and we see the same architectural techniques used in the building of these temples that we do on the coast of Peru. So, we see these civilizations that were destroyed joining each other. Now, what's really interesting, what happens during the construction of Chavin de Jantar that we don't see on the coast of Peru is that their religion changes. They now have a religion, and they're worshiping this fanged jaguar god. So there's this thing called the Ramundi stone and then there's the stela of Chavin de Hontar and there's something else there that depicts this fanged deity,

Starting point is 01:37:37 which is like this half jaguar man holding these stalks of corn. And what's really interesting is that their pottery that they start using at Chavin is the same style of pottery that was found in a cave on the eastern side of the Amazon. So this is all western Amazon in the highlands of ancient Peru. Their style of pottery is exactly the same as pottery that was found on the opposite side of the Amazon that comes from 6,000 BC. Now we're at about 1,300 BC. So over the course of 4,000 to 5,000 years, this pottery style had drifted over all the way across the Amazon. And when this civilization was rebuilding, this style of pottery met Chavin de Hontar and so did their god. And then all of a sudden,

Starting point is 01:38:28 this god from a civilization that's living in the Amazon arrives in Chavin de Hontar. Chavin is a massive success because of their religion and they spread all across the Andes and they create, they're the mother culture that got their religion from some civilization

Starting point is 01:38:44 in the Amazon that's never been found. And that civilization planted the seed of their religion in Shevin. And Shevin birthed the Andes, the Andean civilization, which is like the ancient Inca and all of the cities that were rumored to be El Dorado come from a civilization in the Amazon that's never been found. So that's the big rabbit hole that I'm going down. So man, it's amazing. And so we're able to know that simply because of their style of pottery. We see this depiction kind of emerging from the Western Amazon into the Andes. When people find pottery, there are depictions of this fanged deity. There's a half-man, half-jaguar god that was the god of a civilization somewhere deep within the Amazon.

Starting point is 01:39:31 And this god continues all the way from Shevin, which is 1500 BC, all the way to the Inca, 1400 BC. He's worshipped the entire time. At sites like Tiwanaku, there's this giant monolithic statue at Tiwanaku that is the same god. And what's really interesting is that about the time of 900 BC, in the Olmec world, all the way up through Central America into Mexico, they are worshipping their own form of this jaguar god being. Yeah. worshiping their own form of this jaguar god being. Yeah, their priest would go into like a shamanic state, and they would carve these jade figures where their priest would like turn into this half jaguar god being. And so, there's a lot of, you know, some archaeologists think that there's got to be some kind of connection between there's a high culture, Shevin de Hontar, that's connected to some other high culture in the Amazon that to this day has never been found. The nearest

Starting point is 01:40:29 high culture is in southern Mexico with the Olmec right around that same time, 1000 BC. And boom, they pick up that same half-human, half-jaguar god image. And so, yeah, all across Central and South America, we see evidence of this religion, of these half-man, half-jaguar gods that are being worshipped, and we know that it comes from the Amazon, but where in the Amazon has never been found. And so, when you hear all these rumors from indigenous people, like when Oriana is exploring exploring colombia and ecuador he's constantly hearing from and it's probably happening for two reasons one the indigenous people knew that there were cities of gold and riches that are spread all around that area and two the people that are telling oriana like oh yeah go attack those people they're the ones with all the gold they don't want they

Starting point is 01:41:20 don't want oriana to mess with what they have they say there's way more wealth over there so it's probably happening for two reasons and so it's kind of one of those things that we're talking about it's like a half truth so you're trying to you're trying to track those down well what's interesting in colombia there was at some point later on um there was a tribe that was rediscovered called the Muishka tribe. And so... How do you spell it? Muishka. It's going to be M-U-I-S-C-A.

Starting point is 01:41:52 So the Muishka tribe of Colombia. So basically what El Dorado means is it's like the gilded one. And so this right here, if you go down to the bottom right, that golden... Right here? Yeah, yeah. So that's like depicting this boat. And if you go down to the bottom right, that golden... Right here? Yeah, yeah. So that's like depicting this boat, and it's really hard to see. I'll put it in the corner of the screen for people. Ancient South American iconography and their art is almost like mind-bending in a way.

Starting point is 01:42:17 And there's no evidence of this, but it's pretty widely thought that a lot of their religion is inspired by psychedelics. And so that's why a lot of their depictions of their gods and things like this are very almost crazy in nature. It's like a psychedelic experience just looking at this ancient art. And so basically what this is depicting is an ancient South American king who's on this boat with all of his golden idols next to him. And he would go out onto this sacred lake and he'd be like peppered or sprinkled in gold. And he would throw all of his gold idols off of his boat and he would like step into the water or dive into the water and wash himself off of all the gold. And that was basically a display of how wealthy he was. And so that was one of the stories that Oriana heard. Well, we found a tribe who said that like their

Starting point is 01:43:13 oral traditions allude to something very similar to that. And there's a lake in, um, there's a lake in Columbia. And I don't know why the name is escaping me because all the lakes are very, uh, you know, all the names of, of a the ancient americas are very foreign but um there's a lake in colombia it's a really small lake um but the spanish were trying to drain out this lake and find golden idols they wanted to drain it out how the hell would they do that i guess that it's it's um i think it's like a volcanic lake it's like a it's like a little crater i mean i mean it's a tiny lake dude you could probably throw a stone across it and they were trying to build a canal to drain it out but that didn't work and so any of these rainbow lake gustavita

Starting point is 01:43:56 lake toda yeah lake gustavita i bet you i i think that's it okay yeah yeah yeah small body of water in a forest fringe crater northeast of Bogota in central Colombia. That's got it. I'm pretty sure that that's it. The photo looks exactly like it. You see how small that is? And so the Spanish were trying to build canals to basically drain out the water. Yeah, yeah.

Starting point is 01:44:19 The Spanish were trying to drain out the water to get all of the golden artifacts that were at the bottom. And some people would dive in and find stuff, but they were never able to drain out the water to get all of the golden artifacts that were at the bottom. And some people would dive in and find stuff, but they were never able to drain out the water completely. Well, later on, you know, the second wave of exploration that comes a few hundred years later, people do end up finding artifacts in that lake, golden artifacts, just like, just like the people stated, but the cities weren't around, you know, where, where were the cities, cities that still haven't been found. And this is near the Amazon. So what is thought is that that lake

Starting point is 01:44:49 that's mentioned in the legend of El Dorado, that lake just in that story may have been found, but it may have been, and this is very common in the ancient Americas, it may have been an ancient pilgrimage site that they went to, they traveled out of the Amazon, higher up into the mountains of Columbia to that lake to do this ritual, and then they go back home. And so, but the civilization that is attributed to that, the home of their civilization still has never been found. Furthermore, there

Starting point is 01:45:17 were other stories. I believe that where Oriana was at the time when he heard the story of El Dorado, they were telling him to go north. There were also stories telling him to go south. And I don't know that Oriana actually did end up going south into like the coastal Moche area, the deserts of Peru. But in that area, there are more cities that are just like El Dorado. The Valley of Pyram pyramids i showed you they were so wealthy in gold that they had gold gauntlets like you would slip your hand into a

Starting point is 01:45:50 into a gauntlet of gold and they found this now these are now keep in mind these artifacts are super rare and they're only found in tombs because the spanish i think under pizarro and perhaps after pizarro as well, ended up just going through all of this, because Spain is going through a terrible time with their economy at this point. There's like a renaissance awakening going on in Europe at this time, less and less and less people are actually attending church. So what the Spanish crown needs because they're in bed with the Vatican is they need converts, right? They need people to be a part of their religion to keep paying dues to the church. This is millions upon millions upon millions of people that they can convert into Christianity to be a part of their church. They

Starting point is 01:46:41 can also melt down all of their gold. So any gold that was just sitting around got melted down into ingots. So what's interesting, and not a lot of people know this, is every single ancient city that they came across in the Andes, this is the reason I say there's dozens and dozens of Eldorados, every single ancient city that they came across, they melted down 100% of the gold that they found into ingots and sent it back to spain so now all of the gold of el dorado is probably like in our phones and stuff um you know they use a little bit of gold in phones it's you know in people's rings and everything um so but what's interesting and not a lot of people know this either, is that when they captured the capital of the Inca, which is Cusco and Lima, two different capitals, in Cusco, they had this thing called like the

Starting point is 01:47:32 Garden of the Gods. And the Inca were so, were such prolific goldsmithers that they had an entire like uh foley forest made in this little garden 100 out of gold life-size llamas life-size jaguars life-size birds life-size trees and bushes every single leaf and stem made out of gold when did they do this this is uh this is the 1400s 13 1400, 1400s. These gardens existed when the Spanish arrived. So they walked into a city where the outside stones of the walls were plated in gold. So the sun rises and the city shines like El Dorado. You walk inside of a building with a little candle lamp and the light reflects off of the gold that's plated. So imagine having gold plated walls on inside the temple and outside the temple.

Starting point is 01:48:28 And that was across all Inca sites. And the Spanish took all of it down and melted all of it. All right, wait, slow down a second with this. I was a little confused because I asked like when they had this gold and you said they had it by 1400. Does that mean, first of all, that you're saying it was built like right before that because it was there when the Spanish were there, but it wasn't there for that long? Well, so we know that the ancient

Starting point is 01:48:55 Indian cultures, I know this is like, the study of ancient America is super complex. Unlike Egypt where it's kind of a straight line, easy to digest, and we're more familiar with it. So I'll try to slow down because in South America, it's tough to keep up with sometimes. So we know that around Chavin de Hontar, which is 1500 to 900, and then it extends to 300 BC. This is like basically the mother culture of all Andean civilizations. So Andean is basically the western mountainous coast of South America, just west and outside of the Amazon rainforest. And so civilization exploded there after Amazonian religion was introduced to Chavin de Hontar. And so right at the same time, ancient Indian culture was also smithing gold. And we know this just because

Starting point is 01:49:54 gold is found inside tombs that date back to 1000 BC, you know, around 1000 BC in South America. So at least from all the way up until then, civilizations that were, that were all around where, where, uh, Oriana was looking for, for Eldorado and deep into the Amazon. We know that there were goldsmithing cultures from that time, you know, from a thousand BC all the way up to Spanish contact with Oriana and Pizarro conquering South America. So for probably 2,400 years at least, they were smithing gold. Okay. All right. So this has some dense history. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:50:36 And, I mean, you're talking about tens of millions of people living just in the Andes to uh the amazon i mean potentially 20 million people in the amazon and several million across the andes all the way up to all the way up to panama okay so your partial answer in my second question here but maybe just for the incas in particularly at the at this time sub 1400 when they have this the incas the incas are like the final civilization of the andes they conquered the whole andes they're standing upon the giants of the even more ancient civilizations that came before them do we know how big they were how big how big they got yeah like how like

Starting point is 01:51:24 how many people around the time like let's say when the spanish came in and took the gold i couldn't make an estimate but i mean they're fully populating uh chile bolivia all of peru ecuador and a little bit into the amazon just a little bit like where the Andes meets the Amazon. But what's interesting is they didn't push further into the Amazon. So how the Incas ruled is very well documented because there were Spanish chroniclers speaking with them, asking them all the details of how they ruled. And what's interesting is there were fierce people in the Amazon that were guarding the Amazon. So Inca empire was divided. Yeah, I was thinking 10 million,

Starting point is 01:52:09 but I thought that that might be too much. So they had 10 to 12 million. I'm just pulling this up. And this is actually why I miss having the TV behind guests sometimes. I'm not trying to distract you when I do this, but, you know, because when I had it behind them, like you guys, I just tell you know um because when i had it behind him like you guys would i just tell you afterwards and you guys just kept going but 10 to 12 million incas in around i

Starting point is 01:52:32 have it around 15 20 so that's within the strike zone of what we're talking about and how many spanish like we know the story with the aztecs it was like 100 or something at the beginning that was crazy because they thought yeah like 150 they thought he was like a god but how many like how big of a Spanish contingent or army or whatever you want to call it are we talking about taking the Incas I think it was significantly more like several thousand people maybe not maybe not 10,000 but yeah 10 to 12 million Incas and they took this whole like I'm trying to picture this like gold forest. I can tell you the story of exactly how it happened. So, so Oriana basically, Oriana basically, you know, he leaves Pizarro to take over the Incas. And so Pizarro wants,

Starting point is 01:53:20 he wants, what Pizarro wants is complete control of South America. Okay. What Spain wants, the church wants, who's in bed with the Vatican is they want new converts to keep the church alive. They also want the gold too. And so Pizarro really just wants the gold and the power and the property. So Pizarro basically descends down upon the Incas and he kind of gets a feel for like, okay, so the Incas, they rule this whole area. Now there were even more ancient sites. Like when the Inca are ruling, there are completely abandoned ancient ruins that have been around for 3000 years, just laying out in the middle of the desert that nobody's living at. This is, this is 4,000 years of civilization leading up to the Inca building some of the craziest

Starting point is 01:54:06 stone and granite monuments that dwarf some of the things that we see in ancient Egypt. And so you're looking at an ancient civilization that is at its absolute peak and they meet Spain. So it's very similar to the Aztecs, this civilization that is just absolutely ruling with an iron fist over everybody around them, except the Aztecs were much civilization that is just absolutely ruling with an iron fist over everybody around them, except the Aztecs were much more violent than the Inca. But you have these two, you know, it's like an unstoppable force meets an immovable object, and they come to meet. So basically, they kind of, they have little peaceful conversations. Atahualpa was the last legitimate emperor or king of the Inca.

Starting point is 01:54:50 We call it the Inca Empire. So Atahualpa is in talks with Pizarro and they're trying to like work out a way for this to not be a fully fledged war, right? So it's really not going to work out so um pizarro basically requests that he requests from the spanish crown he's like like can i just conquer these people can i just completely take them over and they go no that's not what you're there to do you're there to get converts this didn't work in mexico because we went to war against the aztecs and killed all of them. That was what, like 1519? That was 1519 through 15, early 1520s.

Starting point is 01:55:31 So we're a little past that. This is now the 1530s, I believe. And so this is about 15 to 20 years later. And so the Spanish crown is like, no, just going in and invading didn't work very well. We also didn't get any gold from the Aztecs, not as much as we know is in South America. So, we're going to do this peacefully. So, you need to at least extend an olive branch to Atahualpa, which is the Inca emperor, and see if, you know, give him the opportunity to entertain all of the Inca converting to Christianity.

Starting point is 01:56:07 Now, at this point, they had their own religion, which is the same religion that Chavin de Hontar took from deep in the Amazon 2,000 years beforehand, maybe 2,500 years beforehand. It's the same religion that they've had this whole time. So Atahualpa shows up to where Pizarro's camp is where all of his, you know, several thousand conquistadors are, and they walk in to find, you know, and Atahualpa is there with his bodyguards and with his, his several thousand man army. I think it's like several dozen thousand. And, uh, he walks in and there's no Spanish conquistadors there.

Starting point is 01:56:47 And they're supposed to have this big meeting. But there's one priest there. And he has a Spanish Bible. And he walks up to Atahualpa and he has a translator with him. Because they've been interacting for a few years now. So now they're able to have translators that understand each other's language. And it's been like both of these sides know war is coming, you know, and they thought this was going to be the

Starting point is 01:57:10 final meeting or maybe it was going to be the first battle. And so this priest walks up to Atahualpa with the Spanish Bible and he basically tells them, you're going to have this opportunity to convert to Christianity. You're going to worship our God. And the most powerful God, the one true God, is on our side. And if you don't join us, you're going to be slain. This whole country will not exist anymore. All of your people will be slain. But if you bow to our God and worship our God, that won't happen. Because that's what their God wants them to do, slay other people.

Starting point is 01:57:42 I digress. Atahualpa takes the Spanish Bible, he opens it, spits on it, rips the page out, and throws it on the ground. Honestly, good for him if that's what they were saying to him. And so he throws it on the ground, and the whole city has been abandoned. And what he doesn't realize is that hiding just off in the forest with telescopes are Pizarro and his men watching Atahualpa throw the

Starting point is 01:58:05 Bible on the ground. So just like that, the Spanish descend down on the Inca army and Pizarro himself runs up to Alta Guapa, which I mean, Pizarro is kind of a badass. He runs up to Alta Guapa with a knife, puts a knife to his throat and kidnaps him just like that and all of the inca empire is shut down in one moment because the emperor is is captured it's so fascinating how the symbol at the top can cause all the music to stop i mean you know weird right you even even look today in modern history. You ever study like coups and how they happen? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not that many people.

Starting point is 01:58:57 It's usually not that much, especially if they get the whole military on their side. The symbolism of putting all your faith in like, oh, this is the leader. This is the thing we believe in. Oh, it's not there anymore. Okay, we got to listen to this now yeah it happens so fast yeah and i guess like what was the resistance though like in this case because it can go either way sometimes in history you have like the people go okay all right new leaders here sounds good but then other times the leader will come in and obviously like kill a bunch of people or force them to convert or something so what did after he gets captured or did you say he got captured or slain?

Starting point is 01:59:26 No, he was captured. He was captured. So after he gets captured, you know, what, they just have like a messenger running around the whole fucking 10 to 12 million people. Hey, guess what? This guy's the leader now.

Starting point is 01:59:35 He's from Spain. We're going to all be Christians. And if we're not, you're going to die. Like how, how'd it go? So yeah, they capture him. They're in this, they're in their big city. And I want to say it may have been Lima, Peru that they were occupying at this time, which was also one of like the main citadels of the Inca Empire. But I think they had taken over Lima and that's where the Spanish had built their own headquarters, their own camp.

Starting point is 01:59:58 And so they have Atahualpa captured in here and he has like his own little house that they've given him. They treat him halfway decently. captured in here and he has like his own little house that they've given him you know they treat him halfway decently and because they allow him to still rule over the inca from their camp but everything that he says has to be approved by the spanish right so basically they tell basically they tell him okay um you know or they they tell him you tell the Inca people that we will return you to power. We will return you to go live at Cusco if they turn over X amount of golden idols and golden ingots, and we want it all melted down because they knew how to melt metal already. They were so wealthy, dude. They would have blocks of, the Inca had blocks of granite that are half the size of this table

Starting point is 02:00:46 you know four feet tall three feet thick that they were almost like fused together but they had um gosh i'm trying to think of how you would describe it they had um like wedges not wedges but they were able to melt down or pour in gold into these blocks that would fuse the blocks together and hold them together. So they were using – I'm trying to think of the exact word for that. But they were using gold. That's how wealthy they were to hold blocks together in their construction. But that's the thing. What is wealth? Like wealth involves the value placed on your utilities or your owners or what you own from other people.

Starting point is 02:01:32 So the Spanish look at it and they're like, okay, well, they're wealthy as fuck. They have all this gold because the Spanish are trading with all these other countries around Europe, the Middle East asia the whole bit like there's a global community that at least exists over there but whereas here they're how much of that even is there oh it was actually exactly the same gold was like a flex all of all of that was a flex like if you when you walked into the to the inca capital of cusco and you saw that garden of the gods that was made out of gold that was a flex as to like, look how wealthy we are. I believe it's a flex, but they're a flex to who? Because until then, who else was coming there? Yeah, yeah, I know. I think it was just kind of like a symbol. Well,

Starting point is 02:02:19 no, I mean, there probably were other cultures coming there. Like we don't have evidence of this, but there were definitely other cities that were in the Amazon that were definitely traveling through Inca territory. You have Chile below that. You have – you can get down to like the Patagonia region. There are ancient civilizations down there with traders who were coming through. Oh, yeah. And I wouldn't be surprised if there were people coming down from North America all the way down to south america trading teotihuacan man like uh in which is like the biggest ancient city in um in mexico that we still to this day don't know who built the city and it's the biggest pyramids in mexico some of the biggest notice noticeably biggest pyramids in mexico

Starting point is 02:02:57 we don't know who built them but we find evidence of ancient monkeys that were brought there as pets from Peru. They were brought all the way up through Panama. And so there were cultures traveling down into Inca territory all the time. I'm 100% sure of it, even though we don't have the, well, we do have the hard evidence, but we don't have like an extensive amount of evidence. But this is like a show of wealth. I mean, there are fountains in Inca territory that they were showing off their understanding of hydraulics,

Starting point is 02:03:30 of how to create flowing, rushing, fresh, clean water. Those fountains still run today that have been running for over a thousand years in Cusco. But they were so heavily fortified that it wouldn't be realistic for Pizarro to take his men and try to conquer everybody because the Inca were fierce warriors. And so he had Atahualpa still acting as emperor from the Spanish camp. And basically they had the Inca go with, I think Pizarro himself or his explorers were given express permission to wander all of the four corners of the Inca go with, I think Pizarro himself or his explorers were given express permission to wander all of the four corners of the Inca empire, melt down gold along with the Inca people and bring it back to the Spanish camp and send it back to the Spain. Well, they said that when that was

Starting point is 02:04:17 done, within a couple of weeks, Atahualpa would be released, but they actually kept him for eight months. And then they hadn't i guess made the headway in conquering the inca territory that they thought that they would leading up to about a year's time and they just knew that if we release atahualpa we're going to have a whole another war on our hands so basically the spanish crown says execute him so rather than so for eight months they've been exploiting all of the Incas gold in the Inca doing it in hopes that they get their king back so they can keep their civilization. And then Spain decides to cut his head off. And then right at the very end, Alta Hualpa,

Starting point is 02:04:57 he pleads, he pleads for mercy. He converts to Christianity to keep his life. And he wants to go back to being king, and then Pizarro says, no, but since now you're a Christian, we're going to asphyxiate you to death. So they basically... That's nice. Yeah, they basically put like this rope over his throat, and they tighten it down with a nail until he stops breathing. Oh, that's... Yeah, that seems like a great way to go. Yeah, yeah, and that's how they killed him and from there what was the alternative yeah i i don't know that sounds way worse than anything else yeah maybe if they put him in like a box and had hornets eat him to death slowly yeah that could be worse but yeah so christ um so yeah they end up they end up killing him and then it's basically just like a pretty quick

Starting point is 02:05:42 descent in all civilization in all indian civilization because the inca they weren't savage like the aztecs were you know the inca were beloved by south america the aztecs were absolutely hated by people in in mexico and central and south america that's why the aztecs fell every tribe around them hated them but But the Inca – We're going to get to the Aztecs. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The Inca were the epitome of South America. I'm not going to call it a utopia because it was certainly violent. But it was a much more peaceful civilization and it fell fast.

Starting point is 02:06:15 What was their – what was the Incan population like? Like what was their – were they all – was the main source of occupation like farming and stuff like that? Yeah, yeah, farming. Pretty similar to what you're going to see in Central America. So they're farming like their local fruits and vegetables, maize. Corn is just a huge thing. and to give you an idea of the type of, I'm not going to call it utopian, but I call it that in comparison to the rest of the ancient world in the Americas with just how savage some things were then,

Starting point is 02:06:52 and savage is a polarizing term, but I still use it. It's a polarizing term? That's a new story. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. To call like, to some people, to call the Aztecs savage is like- Oh, I guess when you're talking about this stuff. Yeah. Yeah, you're right.

Starting point is 02:07:05 Yeah, yeah. So, you know, a lot of this stuff is like real charged. You can't say certain words. But I will explain to you in a second why everybody, including other native tribes, hated the Aztecs and wanted to see them fall. Okay. Nobody wanted to see the Incas fall. Not Central...

Starting point is 02:07:21 Not South Americans. So to give you a good idea of how peaceful and respectful and morally aligned the Incas were, during their war, their very short war with Pizarro, this happened just after Alta Huapa died. There was another king who was instilled, like, I think his name was like Sapa Inca. And these are kind of like phony emperors. They're kind of like stand-in emperors in a dying empire. And so they're leading wars against the remaining Spanish forces. And they're doing okay. They win a couple of really big battles, but they start losing

Starting point is 02:08:03 because when, like in the winter, they would be fighting and fighting and fighting and doing really well. But when spring and summer would come around and it was time to harvest your crops, the Inca rulers would turn around and they tell their people, well, you don't have to fight. If you do need to go home and tend to your crops, you can. So the men were leaving the front lines to go home and be with their family and farm and not fight during crop season. So during that time, what are the Spanish doing? They're pushing further in.

Starting point is 02:08:34 And do we know how big their army was at maximum capability? I couldn't tell you. It had to be a lot. Yeah, I would assume at least 25%, 20% of the whole empire. So you're looking at 2 million warriors, you know, I would guess. And you're talking about only thousands of Spaniards. So what, what was the weaponry like? So on the Spanish side, what they have and what did the Incans, what were the Incans

Starting point is 02:09:02 working with? Yeah. Yeah. So Incas, they had, uh, yeah. So some people call it Incans, but it's just Incas, what were the Incas working with? Yeah, yeah. So Incas, they had, yeah, so some people call it Incans, but it's just Incas. It's Incas, yeah. Yeah, Incas. It's the same thing with the Maya. Like, it's just the Maya. It's never Mayas or Mayans. No, that one I get wrong. Yeah, it's right. I always say the Mayans. Incas, I misspoke right there, but I know that's Incas. That's interesting. Language changes over time. Like, pretty soon we're going to be calling them Mayans and no one's going to have a problem with it, but really it's interesting language changes over time like pretty soon we're gonna be calling them mayans and no one's gonna have a problem with it but really it's just the maya it's just

Starting point is 02:09:29 maya everything um the only thing that makes it proper is like mayan language just that phrasing like mayan calendar it's really just maya calendar yeah it's kind of weird yeah isn't it yeah i got i got the i um so dr ed barnhart he's like my mentor in my studies, and he's like tough about that. You misspeak, and he's going to be like, no, no, no. You don't want to misspeak in front of somebody who knows what they're talking about. Yeah, correct it 100%, man. So anyways, so – I'm sorry. What did you just ask me a second ago?

Starting point is 02:10:00 We were talking about the capabilities of the different armies. Okay, okay. Spain and Vegas. Yeah, yeah. Spain and the Incas. So, I mean, they were completely outnumbered. So in Spain, or I'm sorry, completely outclassed, I guess, as you say. Yes, weren't outnumbered. Yeah, yeah, yeah, outclassed. So Spain, they had very heavy, very durable armor, right?

Starting point is 02:10:24 And the Incas, they don't have swords. The only kind of swords that you see were used by the Aztecs that are like obsidian-edged swords in Central America. And these are like razor-sharp swords and axes that have like these little bits of obsidian that'll break off into your body, but they're like clubs with edged sides. Well, the Incas, I don't think that there's evidence of that. I mean, they had, um,

Starting point is 02:10:49 they had, um, uh, what is it called? Uh, axolotls or otowattles. It's, it's like a, um, it's like a levered spear. So it's this little handle that's got a spooned end on it. And there's a spear that comes out of the top and they'll throw it'll throw it so um what's the spear made out of it's just made out of wood with like probably an obsidian tip and so the spear is you know six seven eight feet long and you throw it as hard as you can but rather than just throwing it with your hand you have a lever that adds more power to it so they're using those oh yeah yeah man you wouldn't want to get hit with one of those things um and then they had clubs so that's basically about it they're not beating swords armor and shields yeah and and not on people on horseback right so you're on horseback horses there you know slaying people down um and i think they had crossbows too like i think they had i think they

Starting point is 02:11:43 had a very old form of uh of crossbows with them as well so you know once you pull back and launch it talking about the spanish did yeah yeah the spanish not not the incas but uh yeah the spanish had crossbows which i don't really know exactly how effective those were but yeah the incas were definitely outclassed militarily it's so hard to picture yeah it's so hard to picture what that was because also like what was the fighting like was it like because they're from totally different cultures they don't even know each other how their peoples like exist they're completely different but like you look at the revolutionary war where that's not the case you know it's people breaking

Starting point is 02:12:21 off from the people they used to be a part of so they understand it but like revolutionary war civil war these fucking people just lined up across from each other all right shoot all right shoot and they like shoot each other like what's the war fighting like between the spanish and the incas is it just wild go for it complete chaos i think i think that the they probably both had now this isn't something that's written about in spanish chronicles like they don't write how the warfare was carried out they just write this is this was the day of this battle we lost we lost this many men we killed this many incas but yeah most likely the spanish certainly had military tactics um that's dude that's seen all across south central and south america or south central and north america as how the spanish attacked um natives they knew that they were outnumbered so they had to be smart yeah so are

Starting point is 02:13:09 they like surprise attacking oh it's it i wouldn't i'm not gonna say it's all surprise attack but yeah it's a lot of it is surprise attack take the most important person that's at this camp capture him and then hold him ransom so you basically hold off the army, right? So it's like a slow decay of South America. De Soto did that to one of the kings in Alabama. I don't know why I can't remember his name. It's something like Moctezuma. It's something similar to him. But De Soto was another Spanish guy who went across North America, and he captured a North American Mississippian king who was like the most powerful king, but it was all done as a surprise attack. And so that's how the Spanish conquered the Americas was through strategic warfare, not straight up battles because they

Starting point is 02:13:59 would get, whenever that did happen, like it happened at Chichen Itza, there was a straight up battle between the Spanish and then they got surprise attacked by the Maya people. This is in the Northern Yucatan near Merida, Yucatan in Mexico. And anytime that the Spanish and the natives faced, like it was just, they were, it was a, just a, I guess I face you, you face me head on fight. Spanish almost always lost. It would have to be some kind of strategic ambushed attack for them to be able to win. So it was a slow withering away and manipulating of the Americas to be able to conquer everybody.

Starting point is 02:14:37 So, and using, you know, in the case of the Aztecs, using other cultures to figure out informations about your enemies. But that couldn't happen. That didn't really happen in South America. Not completely. Yeah, I mean because you obviously have open area camps and everything. But I think of all these places as the Aztecs different because that was up in Central America and Mexico where there was a lot of open land. But thinking about like the Incas and everything, you're dealing with forest, you're dealing with jungle. It's not, you know, it's not like,

Starting point is 02:15:10 all right, let's all go line up over here. It's not like that. And then you're talking about only having whatever it is, three, 4,000 soldiers in Spain. And you're trying to take down piece by piece at 10 to 12 million person strong i mean how's that even possible it's just yeah it's it's mind-boggling to think you know what it's like except even way more impressive i think about like modern warfare in say like afghanistan right so afghanistan was this big country but it's got like when we dropped in there in 01 after 9-11 like it's got rolling mountains of trees and everything and how did we i mean we obviously ended up fucking that whole thing up but people forget the first before we took our eye off the

Starting point is 02:15:57 ball with iraq the first year there was very effective how did we do that? We did it using CIA paramilitary experts working with the military that we had in small teams together, taking out different, like, taking different strongholds, just camp by camp, because it's surrounded by shrubbery and trees and everything. And so, in a way, I don't remember, we can look it up, I don't remember, or if they even ended up saying it, like how many people we dropped into Afghanistan right away, but it wasn't like an abnormally large amount. And yet there's, you know, there's seven figure people there in that country, and we took it. So this is not, and they probably, with some of the rebel forces,

Starting point is 02:16:44 they had a little bit more equality with weaponry in some ways, probably. Yeah. But, you know, it does make sense once you start to put that together that they could do it. instantaneous communication and stuff like that, how there couldn't be some coordination between, say, like multiple city camps or whatever of the Incas to be like, oh shit, these guys have took down, have taken down like, you know, four camps in the last three weeks that we've heard about from messengers. Let's surround them. I know, right? That's interesting to me that that never happened yeah well it's it is interesting but it it goes to show like the i'm told a lot of times when when you're studying the ancient americas it's it's an alien world like our our understanding of society and the way it works

Starting point is 02:17:39 comes from rome and greece they yes we, like, we don't even realize our entire viewpoint of the entire world comes from Rome and Greece who got their idea of logic from the Egyptians. So the old world, you know, Westerners, Americans are fully clouded in this idea, way of thinking. There is our entire worlds in North, Central, and South America that were completely wiped away. There isn't any way that we could understand, like, what was their logic? Why didn't they do this and that? We don't even understand their values. I mean, there's just, we get little glimpses, like, in the way that they would allow their soldiers to go home and work on their farms to take care of their families and children. Like, I guarantee you that the Spanish were not doing that. Obviously, they weren't doing that.

Starting point is 02:18:29 So, yeah, man, trying to study ancient American religions, it's almost like if we found out a human civilization was living on Mars, but they weren't there anymore, and we were trying to study it and and fully make sense of everything we that we could we wouldn't be able to yeah you know yeah because we are as you said we're completely derived off of that ancient european ideology regardless of how many culture we have every culture in the world here from some point or another living in america but like the the way of america is is built on that and it also you know all the things you learn in the first 10 years of your life starting with learning who your parents are when you first open your eyes you can see them all the

Starting point is 02:19:20 way through learning language to learning you, your daily routine and whatever it is you do in your life. It's very different across all different people in society. But like, within a country, even where there's significant differences from, you know, data point person A and data point person B, some of the ideas of how humanity is supposed to work and like, oh, this is just how it is, this is just how it is, is the same. You know, even with people that you could, you'd have trouble having a conversation with because they're from some way different background. But whatever that is, like that programming that's built in, we then have this cognitive bias where we assume that that same programming is built in

Starting point is 02:20:09 everywhere to everyone, which is like the farthest thing from the truth. But it's very hard to stick that at the door and then learn about how somewhere else thinks of the most basic things. The most basic things about what it means to even be a human or what you do or what the value of life is. Yeah. Stuff like that. Like, try explaining that to, you know, one of the uncontacted tribes. Oh, I know it.

Starting point is 02:20:34 Right? Like, first of all, you couldn't even explain it because no one even understands each other's languages. But if you could, people are going to be like, what? Yeah. You know, all these places, places all these things they're just i've had multiple people on the podcast say this and i've heard a lot of people saying this like when i watch content and stuff recently it's just popping up more and more everything is just a

Starting point is 02:20:54 story it's just it's how a story is sold and passed down over time that then creates all the ideals that come from it and so even trying to concept how places in South America that had been completely separated from the Eastern world, in that case, East of them, that came to rule most of the world after that, you know, what is even their process in considering what this is coming in front of them? The Aztec one's interesting because it's like they thought it was a god.

Starting point is 02:21:27 That didn't turn out well. But how do the Incas look at these strange men in armored suits with their shields and speaking with their funny accents who are also much whiter than they are? They look different. They almost look like they must look like it they must think of it like oh my god is this a different species yeah yeah for sure for sure well one thing i think is a great example of that is um how you know in the movie wonder woman how they call the women the amazons have you ever heard i don't even know like unique women are

Starting point is 02:22:10 sometimes referred to as amazons have you ever heard have you ever heard a connection between these i don't think so well this comes from something that uh pizarro and oriana and some other spanish expeditions came across when they were in the amazon and they came across uncontacted tribes so it was the women in these tribes that were commanding a lot of that were commanding the the armed forces a lot of the times and so in the way that the inca would allow their men who were on the front line to go back to their you know allow them to not participate in the war it was totally voluntary they didn't they didn't like commission you or demand that you served in their military in the amazon it was different these people were fierce that's why that's why the inca didn't go into the amazon they they ruled a little bit east of the andes i mean barely east as soon as the andes meet the amazon

Starting point is 02:23:00 their reign stopped right right because the people in the Amazon were too fierce for the Inca to fight. And in some ways, too fierce for the Spanish to fight as well, because it was so dense, and they knew their way around the jungle, and they were so quick. You can't move anywhere. But there were times when Amazon or Amazonian forces were overwhelmed in the jungle by Oriana's men. And so the Amazonian men that were on the front line would try to retreat and where the term Amazons comes from is that's what they used to, that's what they called the women who commanded the forces. And if any man on the front line of the Amazonian, I guess, tribal warriors was, was a coward and he turned back to run, they would immediately get killed by the women. The women, yeah, the women would stab them to death,

Starting point is 02:23:47 kill them with spears, kill them with clubs, like bash their skull in. All right, so biologically though, are the women stronger than the men in this case? Well, what's interesting is that the Spanish chroniclers wrote down that the women were strangely strong. They were powerful women. so that's where the term amazons comes from like when you you know anybody who's seen wonder woman they're constantly referred

Starting point is 02:24:11 to as the amazons this is where that this is where that correlation between amazons and like strong powerful women come oh my god charles darwin would have had a fucking field day with that yeah yeah it's interesting um i don't know if there's any remnants of that still around today. That's what I'm saying. Like, that's not a human. This is the first I'm ever really hearing of that. I mean, you look at other species, like you'll see like with bees and stuff, the queen bee is the largest and most powerful or whatever. So there are some where like the men are smaller and not as biologically dominant.

Starting point is 02:24:42 Anacondas. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anacondas. Yeah, there's examples of that. But with humans, I've never heard that. Yeah, with humans, it's not usually like that. But yeah, the Amazons, the women, would be sitting at the back of the warriors.

Starting point is 02:24:55 And if any warriors tried to retreat, they'd get their head bashed in with a club. And they'd be killed right there on the spot. So that's where that comes from. So try, you know, how do we even understand that? Where does that even come from that the women are the ones holding the male warriors accountable and commanding the warriors? You know, they came up with presumably all the strategies of attack, like when they're

Starting point is 02:25:17 trying to attack Oriana's men. The women are the ones that the Spanish saw as being the leaders. Now, there wasn't actually anybody who got in on the inside to be able to verify this or speak to any of these people, but they said that's what it looked like was that the women were leading the men. And if any men retreated, they got their heads bashed in. So, yeah, that's where the term Amazons comes from. So we try to understand these ancient cultures. There's just – there's no way that we could fully understand their value system you know yeah can we go back to el dorado yeah because you're reminding me talking about the amazon

Starting point is 02:25:51 right there like we've touched on it a bunch today like in and out and you i think we first started talking about it with percy faucet and how you said he thought he was looking for el dorado but it was actually like another potential city that was similar. And you mentioned something about all these different lost cities that had very similar ideas. So when, when did the term El Dorado, when was that, was that born through the Oriana expedition? Yeah, I, yeah, I believe, I mean, I believe so. That's, that's, that's what the story alludes to, is that he is the first, his expedition is where the term Eldorado comes from. Now, what's interesting is there's some kind of anthropological linguistic evidence that shows that that wasn't actually the name,

Starting point is 02:26:37 like the Gilded One, that's just the name of, Eldorado means the Gilded one or the golden one. But when you study the Moishe tribes, people end up finding out later on that there's a city that what the city was actually called was, according to like the local indigenous language, was the city was actually called the strength. But somewhere in there that got misconstrued into being Eldorado. But Eldorado might just be talking about the king of the city which was called the strength and uh I wish I knew how to pronounce that in its actual language I'd say it that way but in the Muisca language it was called the strength and then that gets twisted into being Eldorado which means the golden or gilded one so that's where that story comes from. And I think, I think that we have found where, so who the gilded one was, was like, I was talking earlier, it was a king who would,

Starting point is 02:27:32 he was basically glittered in gold and he had all these gold artifacts that he would bring with him from their home city, right? And he would go out into the, he would go out to this lake up in the, up in the high mountains of Columbia, and he would go down into the, he would go out to this lake up in the high mountains of Columbia, and he would go down into the lake and submerge himself and drop all this gold into the water, presumably for their God, who is this fanged deity. There's this one God. So, people think that monotheism emerged in Egypt with the rule of Akhenaten, but it didn't. It started in South America, like the worship of one single god. When? It probably started, well, the earliest evidence that we have for it is what used to be about 1300 BC in Shevin de Hontar, because we didn't know where it came from before in the Amazon. And then we find pottery evidence. So, Shevin de Hontar is on the west side of the Amazon.

Starting point is 02:28:26 Then we find the exact same pottery from, and that was 1000 BC, Chavin de Hontar. We find the exact same pottery on the eastern side of the Amazon from 6000 BC. So, that just pushes the same religion back 4,000 years. But that outskirts of where that pottery was found on the eastern side of the Amazon in these Brazilian caves is definitely not the origin of that civilization because we haven't really found the cities that are there. These are just like satellite places

Starting point is 02:28:54 that people are living, making the same kind of pottery that's influenced from somewhere in the Amazon that hasn't been found. So what I really think is that El Dorado in people in my circle has kind of, has kind of grown into this. It's like a phrase that's used to basically identify an entire culture or civilization of goldsmithing cultures that were filthy rich in South America that live somewhere in the Amazon that haven't been identified. But there's not just one. I mean, I'm telling you, there's probably dozens of Eldorados. And Eldorado is symbolic of an entire civilization of people that we know nothing about. All right.

Starting point is 02:29:37 We know nothing about them, but we know the myth, the legend says that they were these cities plated of gold that had you know it was actually when you were talking about the Incan the the Incas forest with all it sounds similar yeah it is similar and that's what I was saying that like they were finding Eldorado after Eldorado after Eldorado but none of it lived up to the story that Oriana had heard. And even Pizarro never thought that he actually found El Dorado. So what I think is that very likely somewhere deeper into the Amazon, there may be even bigger, more impressive sites with more gold that 100% was never looted by the Spanish.

Starting point is 02:30:25 It's still sitting out there. And the great thing about gold and granite and everything that a lot of their cities are built out of is it's perfectly preserved. And if they could still, if and when they're found, if in our lifetime, I think that they're, for number one, they're 100% going to be found. But it's going to completely blow the lid off

Starting point is 02:30:44 of our preconceived ideas of el dorado being a myth because it's just not i mean you you look into the stories there's more there's dozens of el dorados that existed in the andean world but all of the origins of that civilization and their ability and i should mention a lot of their gold artifacts show this fanged deity god that we know comes from the Amazon. So everything is pointing to along the entire coast of the eastern Amazon to the western Amazon and the Andean civilization. All of it points inwards into the Amazon. The origins of all these great civilizations, these great goldsmithing civilizations that sound similar to el dorado it's all pointing towards the amazon yeah the the guy the guy who wrote this i think was this dude gaspar de caraval

Starting point is 02:31:30 that that was the dude who was capturing it during yeah yeah with oriana that i was referring to earlier so i'm trying to remember it's tough like when i'm listening to you and also trying to look on the screen here see if i can find the spots i may not on air and people will just have to look it up for themselves but i'm trying to remember like being on air can give you like dementia trying to remember things for sure but also like multitasking things like that but i'm trying to remember if it was in the lost city z by david grand or where it was that i read about exactly what this guy reported when they saw the embankment like from the the amazon river that they claim was el dorado which what's his name percy faucet until he went off and was looking at other places. I think the thought during his era and even the thought now is that that was,

Starting point is 02:32:27 it was somewhere like literally like dead in the middle of where the Amazon runs from west to east. So anyway, when they had looked at this, I'm trying to remember if they, if he also, Gaspar de Caraval, also mentioned witnessing advanced-looking other things besides, like, the fact that it was gold and there were these alleged pyramids and stuff like that, that could point to the civilization as the legend has now taken it being highly, highly advanced, right? So the idea that you could have people living quite literally in the middle of nowhere in the amazon and maybe as you said there were multiple different offshoots of this and perhaps perhaps those cities all were tied together perhaps it was a part of a greater empire we're just not thinking of it that way you could speak a lot more on that than i could but when you put all this together it doesn't it allegedly obviously doesn't exist now how far did they get though what made them cease to exist you know it's not like this is like atlantis and it was lost to the ocean or

Starting point is 02:33:39 something like that like this is in the middle of the amazon so why why did it stop or or have we not gone have we not even gone to the places where it could be which is also a strong possibility that's what paul talks about yeah um i think it number one it's easily people just haven't walked across the ruins of what these cities that could have been El Dorado are like. Also, right there in the middle of the Amazon, so on the southeast side of the Amazon, you have Zitput, which is a fabled El Dorado-esque city that very likely is what Percy Fawcett went missing looking for. In the center of the Amazon, where the Amazon River is running east to west, or west to east. And right there in the center would have been more likely the city of Manoa, which is very

Starting point is 02:34:32 similar. People get it confused with El Dorado all the time because it's the same sort of legend. But Oriana was hearing, and is his name Carvajal, I believe? Yeah, yeah. and uh is his name a carbahal i believe yeah um they were hearing the this these legends of you know whenever they would talk to these indigenous people they would say oh yeah just in this area uh deeper further down the river you have to go further and further and further down the river to find this lost city well he was hearing the what i think is he was hearing number one the legend of el dorado which would have been more in

Starting point is 02:35:05 the more in the northwest area of the amazon and then they were hearing the legend of manoa which is a different city similar to it so he was from my opinion when i read the story um and then mostly though when i study like the archaeological evidence and how things point to each other and then i and then i read a little bit about I think, okay, he's hearing a story about – from the Muishka tribe, which is in Colombia. Then he's hearing a story deeper into the Amazon. So here is El Dorado. This is Manoa.

Starting point is 02:35:35 Percy Fawcett was over here studying Z, which might be shit put, which is like – starts with an X, but there's a similarity there in spelling. I thought it was El Dorado. Yeah, yeah. So there's also rumors in Guyana, which is in the northeast side. So when you study it from a bird's eye view and you're looking down in South America, you get a better understanding of, oh, El Dorado isn't one city. It's a whole continent of cities that haven't been found.

Starting point is 02:36:00 Now, what made them go missing? Two things, possibly. One, there could have been some kind of natural disaster that affected them in the same way that the Maya did because the Maya collapsed on their own in a similar ecological area to, you know, if you were in the middle of the Amazon rainforest. They're in the middle of their own rainforest, which is like the Paten rainforest in the highlands. Something happened to the Maya, and we don't know exactly what that was. This is around 750 to 850 AD, so pretty recent, about 13 to 1200 years ago. Something happened to their climate. We don't know exactly what happened, but we know that it was widespread. It wasn't caused by war.

Starting point is 02:36:46 It was something that happened to the entire climate that caused their civilization to fall. It's possible that a very similar thing happened to these civilizations that are in the Amazon that caused them to move out because we see civilization on the east side of South America move in from the coast like when you look at archaeological evidence it looks like they moved in or yeah i mean it looks like they moved in but

Starting point is 02:37:11 then later on at about 1000 bc we see civilization and religion move out of the west side of the amazon into the high 1000 bc though that's what we're going way back now yeah we're going way whereas like some of the purported sighting with like oriana was like 15 20 yeah yeah so i'm trying to like i'm trying to make sense of it all because there's so much going on this is why i love that the ancient americas because dude it's so much more complicated than i ever thought when i first got into it so so again we have a collapse of the may, which is in Central America, for natural reasons. There isn't like a disease being introduced that wipes out the whole civilization yet. So something happened to the Maya.

Starting point is 02:37:50 We still don't know, but they collapse, and it's the end of the classic Maya era into the post-classic, where they move north into the Yucatan, and the civilization is kind of fledgling and falling apart for a while. Well, either something like that happened to the civilizations in the Amazon, they're living deep in the jungle, and some kind of climate crisis happens. There hasn't been an adequate explanation for what happened to these tribes that are in the middle of the Amazon. But we know for certain, even archaeologists don't dispute the fact that there were upwards of 20 million people living in the Amazon that vanished. It was reported during a time of contact there are all these people living there,

Starting point is 02:38:33 and then by the time Percy Fawcett and other explorers show up, none of these people are there anymore, and the villages and towns that we did know of aren't populated anymore. What could have explained that? Well, definitely the destruction, like the decimation of civilization and the disparity between like the reports of Oriana and the guys who came later like Fawcett and some of the guys before Fawcett, definitely the result of that is just disease. Like we had all these diseases in Spain and in the old world

Starting point is 02:39:01 that we brought over into the new world. And people in the new world, in a way, they were very hygienic. Like they didn't have the diseases that we brought over into the new world. And people in the new world, in a way, they were very hygienic. Like they didn't have the diseases that we have, right? And they were very well suited to the environment that they lived in. Not these, they weren't suited to the diseases that spread from living amongst rats and poop and mud, you know? So we bring these diseases and it's not just one disease. It's like 12 plagues that we sent all across the, I say we, but Westerners sent all across the, you know, from, from Mexico and Central America to South America. And it spread all the way up to North America. We killed, the Westerners killed upwards of about 95 million people just, just through disease.

Starting point is 02:39:44 So we know at the very least, there was probably about 20 million people just through disease. So we know at the very least, there was probably about 20 million people living in the Amazon. So that disease spreading from the people that the Spanish had contact with, spreading deep into the Amazon, could have easily put out, easily put out even the biggest civilizations that are living deep in the Amazon. Either that's what happened, or there was some kind of environmental thing that destroyed Amazonian civilization

Starting point is 02:40:10 inside the jungle. And that's why they spread out to the Andes. Because I mean, we know civilization emerged from the Amazon and religion emerged from the Amazon into the Andes and inseminated the Andes and created like the greatest empire of all of the Americas that we're aware of. So there's two different explanations, either environmental or it was Spanish contact and disease that destroyed what the civilizations and cities of El Dorado would have been. The civilizations you were talking about though where there was evidence that they were moving far to the east and out of there. Was that what you were mentioning was like 1000 BC or something? Well, no.

Starting point is 02:40:46 Okay. So Chavin de Hontar, which is right west of the Amazon, that's 1000 BC. Now, I just briefly mentioned that they were moving east as well. So we find these caves that are in the Brazilian highlands

Starting point is 02:41:03 that are near the eastern coast on the opposite side of the Amazon from Peru, right? And in these caves, you can find these campsites that have been used at different periods for several thousand years. So even around 1000 AD, we see that these caves are being used, but you dig deeper into like the, you dig deeper into the soil. And then that's where they find, oh, this was used 6,000 years ago, you know, by studying the soil and the layers and, and, um, like soil disposition and how things get buried inside these caves over time that you find these ancient campsites with pottery that goes back to

Starting point is 02:41:42 6,000 BC, but on a higher layer, you find another civilization that emerged from the Amazon later with different pottery that we find a little bit deeper into the Amazon. So it's like relative data, you know what I mean? You're putting patterns together. So we find that people went from outside the Amazon in 6,000 BC into the Amazon, and then they come out around the same time that people popped out of the west end as well so it looks like people moved into the amazon something happened and then people left but these so these wouldn't be these wouldn't be civilizations that had insane advanced technology or something like that because they ended up like they survived for years outside of those zones and

Starting point is 02:42:24 we don't have evidence that they had anything like that um yeah i mean if we're talking about ancient like advanced technology this is this is where it can get a little bit tricky because man you look at you look at the civilizations like man you look at okay so the the three main civilizations that appear after you know you have this uh 3300 bc civilization that that exists on the eastern coast of peru and then they and then they collapse because of these torrential floodings they move a little bit closer to the amazon and the highlands of the andes but then all of a sudden they take on amazonian religion and they just their civilization explodes again and it's extremely successful up until Spanish contact.

Starting point is 02:43:09 That's Chavin de Hontar. Right at that point, all before that, they had been using these little, they've been using little bricks that are like, you know, the size of a cinder block. But at the time of Chavin, they still use blocks like that. But also at the same time, they're using blocks that are as big as this table. They're building cylindrical columns. And all of this is introduced as soon as ancient Peruvian people take on the religion of the Amazon. So people were coming out from the Amazon, teaching these people about architecture, more agriculture that they hadn't known before, before being introduced to Amazonian people, and religion. So agriculture, architecture, and religion all came from the

Starting point is 02:43:54 Amazon. So Chavin explodes, and we see megalithic architecture. Then later on, probably within the next 1000 years, civilization kind of moves from Chavin to a place called Tiwanaku. Have you ever heard of this? You were telling me about this. Yeah. So, so Tiwanaku is a place that's, it's, it's almost inexplicable. The, the geometrical patterns that are shown in the blocks there and how precision cut they are in unnecessarily cut as well. We have no explanation. They're like square blocks that are three or four feet high and three or four feet wide that have these geometric prism shaped patterns cut in layers inside of them. And some of them are cut into H blocks and these weren't necessarily used as foundational stones. They weren't used as walls.

Starting point is 02:44:42 We have no idea what the architecture at Tiwanaku looks like. It looks like some kind of strange alien site. We also don't even know how they cut the blocks the way they did. And we have evidence that the plating, that there was plating on the outside of the walls at Tiwanaku. We know that there were walls, but these strange blocks weren't walls. How do you spell Tiwanaku? So the easy way of spelling it is T-I-W-A-N-K-U. T-I-W-A-N-K-U. Or A-N-A-K-U. Continue.

Starting point is 02:45:16 I think I got it. Tiwanaku. So that's the gate of the sun. At the top of that gate. I'll put this image in the corner of the screen. Yeah, yeah. So you can look up the gate of the sun at Tiwanaku. At the top central part of that gate, that little effigy god-looking thing,

Starting point is 02:45:32 that's the same fanged god that we see at Chavin de Jantar a thousand years before that didn't exist in Peruvian civilization before Peruvian civilization took on the religion of the Amazon. So that god comes from the Amazon. So, as soon as this god from the Amazon is introduced, Peruvian civilization starts using megalithic architecture. Now, that gate is made out of three solid blocks that weigh, you know, multi-ton blocks. And there's a foundational stone at Tiwanaku that weighs upwards of like 160 tons. Now, keep in mind, the biggest beast of burden that ancient Peruvian people would have had to be able to move their monuments is a llama. So, how do they move these blocks that

Starting point is 02:46:19 don't come from here? Nobody knows, but the source of all of this knowledge and the source of this culture that did all of this comes from the Amazon. Then after Tiwanaku, so Tiwanaku lives from 200 AD. So it's like a thousand years after Shevin. They lived from 200 AD to a thousand AD-ish. They built a bunch of monuments that are similar to this. Like you could look up the h blocks and everything i encourage people to look it all up then about a thousand years after that you have the inca who come in and then the inca take things up a whole other step which is almost inexplicable and people have a really hard time effectively explaining how the inca did this because it's a it's a step above anything that's like this. They're building architecture like I was talking about earlier. The blocks, their buildings and their temples are so perfectly built that the Spanish came in and they look at

Starting point is 02:47:18 these giant temples that are more magnificent than anything they've ever seen in Spain. Anything that was ever built in Greece or in Egypt. There's nothing like ancient Peruvian granite architecture. And they look at all of this and they're like, we have to take all this down. But they can't take the walls down. So they build new Spain on top of the two Inca capitals, Cusco and Lima. They build new Spain on top of these Inca cities

Starting point is 02:47:46 to cover up the architecture. And what they want to do is extinguish all the culture, extinguish any of the pride that these people would have had because they wanted to completely convert them. Yeah. But they really wanted like a submissive population. So sick. So they built New Spain, quote unquote,

Starting point is 02:48:03 on top of all these different Inca sites. And then right at 1650, shortly after the conquering of Peru, a massive like magnitude nine earthquake hits South America and it destroys and topples all these Spanish buildings. And the Peruvian city is still sitting underneath the Spanish cities completely unaffected. And so they build up New Spain on top of it again. And then in 1950, there's another like magnitude eight earthquake that hits South America, topples all the cities there. The Inca city is still sitting there.

Starting point is 02:48:38 And all that architectural knowledge of how they built these sites goes all the way back to the civilization Chavine that was influenced by the amazon and what's interesting about if you're talking about like advanced technology what's really interesting is if you look at like have you heard of bailback before you know where i heard of bailback where's that when you first contacted me what was that like a month ago? Maybe so, yeah. I saw a video where you talked about that.

Starting point is 02:49:10 Yeah, okay. Did I make that up? Was that you? No, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's you. I have a video on bailback, but there are other people that talk about bailback too. But anyways, I bring up bailback to say like in a lot of these ancient megalithic sites, that's kind of what they're termed as. And it's just sites that use giant megalithic blocks and boulders to build their monuments that had to be moved from far away.

Starting point is 02:49:33 You know, largely inexplicable things that we don't have any kind of explanation for today. Well, at Baalbek, this is in ancient Lebanon, the bottom layers of Baalbek are the biggest stones. They're like 1400, is it 1400 ton stones or 1400 pound stones? Yeah, it's insanely large sites. But they use their biggest stones at the bottom of these temples. In the Inca temples, they had something called a soft foundation. And it was like this, it was almost like these soft pebbled rocks that allowed these giant boulders that are fitted perfectly next to each other. When an earthquake would hit, the whole temple, the entire fortress, this Inca temple would

Starting point is 02:50:20 move on this soft foundation back and forth and then settle back into place but how they ever learned how to be able to do this we haven't we have i mean we have no idea that's what you're talking about right there yeah it's it's similar to that um you'd have to look at the trilithon stones um like that with the base yeah that that might be one that haven't seen before, but that's what it looks like. Okay, I'll put that image in the corner. Yeah, yeah. All over the Temple of Jupiter in ancient Lebanon, you see these giant stones,

Starting point is 02:50:53 and they're all used as the base. But what happens is earthquakes aren't as common there as there are in South America. But when an earthquake hits, that giant stone that is the foundation of the whole building cracks in half, and then the whole building cracks in half and then you know the the temple can fall in but in the inca world it wasn't like that because all of these giant stones some of them the size of this whole room standing straight up they were

Starting point is 02:51:17 all fitted perfectly together more perfect than have you ever heard about how people talk about the blocks on the pyramids are so perfect together you can't put like a credit card between them? We're going to get to that. Okay, yeah, yeah. So this is more perfect than that. Way more. I mean you can't fit, you can't pluck a hair off your head and put it between these giant granite stones. And this is granite, not limestone like is mostly used in Egypt.

Starting point is 02:51:41 The Inca is mostly used granite. And the blocks are way bigger than the limestone blocks that are used in egypt they most the inca is mostly used granite and the blocks are way bigger than the limestone blocks that are used in egypt but they're built on a soft foundation so when earthquake hits the whole temple moves and rocks back and forth and then sets back into place so it doesn't collapse and fall apart fucking wild yeah and um i wonder you ever think about like the the way they did like how they actually did their physics? Man. You know, because we have all these equations and stuff and we've had them for years and years now where guys are like, okay, if it doesn't equal that, then it's going to fall.

Starting point is 02:52:16 But like back then, you know, maybe they had some of that too, but they were so intelligent. They obviously, the means are probably different, but the ends get to the same thing or they get to even shit that like maybe we don't consider like that. Yeah. Well, one thing I always think of, and I was having a conversation, I was standing at the base of the Temple of Inscriptions at Palenque in Chiapas, which is just an ancient Maya city in Chiapas, Mexico, in the middle of the jungle. And I was talking to Dr. Ed Barnhart about this, and I was like, you know, one thing I think about sometimes is, you know, our civilization, our society is so influenced by people like Marcus Aurelius, Plato, Herodotus. And this goes all the way back to Imhotep, which is – he's like the first physician, the first scientist, the first architect. He's the guy that created the first pyramid in Egypt.

Starting point is 02:53:10 He designed it for the pharaoh. That's probably why they – maybe I'm pulling this out of my ass, but that's probably why they named the mummy in the movie The Mummy. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I didn't make that up, right? No, they do. They do. Yeah, yeah. Okay.

Starting point is 02:53:23 Everything in The Mummy is wrong, but it's a great movie. Yeah, yeah. I wasn they do. They do. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Everything in The Mummy is wrong, but it's a great movie. Yeah, yeah. I wasn't saying it was wrong. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But at least they had a little nod to history in there. Yeah, yeah. Every single thing in that movie is wrong, but it's an awesome movie. But you got to think, man, the Americas had all of that.

Starting point is 02:53:38 They had their own Herodotus, Marcus Aurelius, these great minds of their civilizations to be able to build what they did. I mean, it's weird when I think about like, you know, I think like sometimes like I probably have like maybe a slightly above average IQ. But dude, there were Albert Einsteins in the Inca Empire. You know what I mean? Like there were people who were more intelligent than all of us. And again, who are the people we think about yeah we're intelligent you know long before yeah it's like plato fast forward leonardo da vinci right like these are people where the places you talked about greece and rome yeah you know it's that is and they all

Starting point is 02:54:19 had they all had their own wow people that were either you either burned at the stake or they were killed by disease. And this whole world is just gone. And really the only thing that's left is pottery, bones, and ancient buildings. And so you're piecing together this giant puzzle of South America. And so in just the last year or so that I've really gotten to understand ancient South America and ancient Central America, I'm starting to realize because I had always thought like El Dorado. Oh, yeah, that's cool. A city of gold. Yeah, that's cool.

Starting point is 02:54:53 And you start studying it more and you realize, whoa, wait, wait. No, no, no. Percy Fawcett wasn't looking for El Dorado. Maybe he thought he was, but he wasn't because now we have archaeological evidence later that there's another city oh dude there's a lidar scan that came out the month that percy faucet went missing 97 years later last year in the monogrosso region of brazil but it's actually just across the border in bolivia wait a lidar scan came out the same month the same month but 97 years oh okay all right i was like wait a minute hold on a second yeah the same month but 97 years later. The reason I know is because I made a video that day that it came out.

Starting point is 02:55:27 It was the same month, like almost to the day that he wrote his letter. And a LiDAR scan came out that found a whole city with a giant step pyramid with raised roads, highway systems running deeper off into the jungle because you gotta realize the monogrosso region of bolivia brazil is like um where dead horse camp may have been was was um a little bit northern into i guess central the amazon i may have been wrong about that earlier but where he was headed was southwest towards bolivia he was headed towards bolivia and where the lidar scan went because he said that was the most likely place he took he was going to take his son to the most likely place that he thought

Starting point is 02:56:16 this lost city would be well we know the and that's why we know the direction but not the place because he never revealed the place yeah yeah exactly right and so and so they ran lidar scans over the amazonian jungle that's just inside bolivia three years ago and they found a giant city right sort of in the direction that he was headed before he went missing and so it was complete with two-step pyramids uh what they think is like a palace or a plaza. We call it a plaza because it's like a giant raised terraced area that people would have likely been doing commerce, and they might likely had a market, so we just call that a plaza. And then it had highways going into the city. So all through the Amazon, oh man, there's so many things I could mention. Go down them. Go down them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So in the Amazon, they had raised highway systems because it rained so much.

Starting point is 02:57:10 So people eventually learned like, damn, I got to get my house off of the ground. So they build a mound, like, you know, maybe as high as the ceiling to keep the rain out of their home, right? So it would run off the mound. But then they realized we can't walk anywhere when it's mud all the time so they build 10 meter tall highways that people walk across and then they how long are these highways tens of miles like tens of miles in one straight direction but they're it's like a web of civilization so what what did they build it with um they probably had their own form of like shovels and and buckets to be able to move you know what i mean it just oh my god yeah yeah so

Starting point is 02:57:52 so they're building these raised highways dude people are finding these all the time now like this is starting to really catch on that people are um going into like the amazon and finding well archaeologists going to the amazon and finding these raised highways because now we're getting to a point where you where you them. Used to, it just looked like a weird, like, you know, like raised little mound that comes down on the other side, but people are starting to catch on to, archaeologists are starting to catch on to, okay, this is artificial. This was created by a human being. So two things happen. They would build these raised highways to be able to walk on ground that wasn't so like, you know, cause sometimes you're going knee deep

Starting point is 02:58:31 in mud in the Amazon when it's raining, but now they've got these highways that are 10 meters tall. Then they got even smarter. And so at the bottom of this raised highway, they would, where it met the ground, they'd build a little canal that would fill up with water that kept, it would like drain out. So you have the raised highway here and you have this little canal and then there's like a little bit of a decline so that the flat plains of the Amazon would like drain into these canals and these canals are filled with water and they had canal boats and they would sail on the boats through the amazon yeah so they were creating artificial canals and rivers through the amazon to go from one place to the other so you could walk whole or you could or you could sail in this

Starting point is 02:59:16 little i don't know six foot wide uh canal on these little river boats and then they would go down the amazon so but lidar scans are super expensive, right? So it's so expensive that for some reason, the same team, they haven't even walked out to the site that they found on foot that was in the Amazon. Nobody's walked out there. They just have a LIDAR scan of it. Um, and then two, they haven't done a LIDAR scan to see where these roads go off because on the outside of the LIDAR scan, it gets kind of faded because they focus on the central area. They take a picture of that. It's actually like a multitude of pictures that you have to kind of digest the information to create a comprehensive photo to be able to know what you're looking at.

Starting point is 02:59:58 It's not just like you take a picture and it's there. It takes a whole profession to be able to yeah i don't know whatever work the photo together but they see all these highways going for miles straight off into the jungle and they haven't sent another lidar scan out there to see where that to see where that road goes you could just take lidar scans in a straight line and find another city they haven't done it because it's so expensive i think it's like in some cases and maybe it's less expensive now but in some cases it's been like 50 grand just for one photo like to send the plane out there with the lidar camera and all that equipment it's like 50 000 so and who's is it usually i assume like private

Starting point is 03:00:37 organizations funding this it's not like you're no no it's it's like the bolivian government brazilian government yeah so now and dude they don't they do not want like some if some guy like elon musk was like you know what i'm gonna put i want to put 50 million dollars towards lidar scans of the amazon to try to find these lost cities because i'm interested in it they the people in brazil or bolivia or peru go yeah well fuck you gringo we don't want your money you know they want to do it all themselves they're tired of having what about what about wealthy south american based people though are they against yeah maybe well i mean they might there might be people there who are for that um and i'm sure that that does go on, but I know like for sure in Mexico, like me going into Mexico, Guatemala, you're walking in as a gringo looking into ancient civilizations in their territory.

Starting point is 03:01:34 They don't really care to have you there. And they definitely don't want you investing millions and millions of dollars to have like power and leverage over the area. They're tired of like their patrimony being ruled over by Westerners, you know? Yeah, no, I fully, I get that. Yeah, but because of that, archeological discoveries happen at a snail's pace because they just don't have, you know, the United States can shell out money for archeology,

Starting point is 03:02:01 but, you know, Bolivia and Brazil have a lot more going on than that they have to focus on. Oh yeah. Than shelling money towards archeology. But, you know, Bolivia and Brazil have a lot more going on than that they have to focus on. Oh, yeah. Then shelling money towards archaeology. So that photo of that city with mile long, multi mile long highways, two giant step pyramids, a giant plaza has that one photo, maybe it was two photos at one time, and no one's ever walked out there on foot because it's so dangerous and the Bolivian government's not going to pay a team to go out there to do what they're not going to turn it into an to a archaeological site that visitors can come in so like it all has to be profitable for these people so that's why the Amazon that's why it's

Starting point is 03:02:40 going to be really tough for people to go in and make discoveries because what do you do? Oh, man. We haven't even talked about this. So what happens if Manoa, which is in the middle of the Amazon River, or it was said to be in the middle of the Amazon River, that's likely what Oriana was hearing about when he was in the middle of the Amazon River. He wasn't hearing about El Dorado, which was a Muxica city. He was hearing about something different that he thought was the same thing, which is fine. It's basically the same thing, but it's just another one in a different area. Brazil is not going to go in and start excavating that and showing these discoveries to the public because they would have to introduce a highway system to get from Rio de Janeiro. Like, what are you going to do? You know, create a giant highway system straight from Rio de Janeiro. Like, what are you going to do? You know, create a giant highway

Starting point is 03:03:26 system straight from Rio de Janeiro, straight to Manoa if they found it. So they're like, it's not profitable. We're not going to make millions off of it. So that might be El Dorado, but it's just going to sit there, you know? So that's really tough. Like you want people to be able to see stuff like this. You want it to be discovered but the practicality of of having it excavated every level destroys the amazon it's yeah it's it's not just destroying it but it's also like even finding this stuff when you don't even know where to look for some of it you know and then you talk about some of the cultural rivalries there with who's actually doing it how they're doing it i mean there's it's it a mess. But before we get on to some of the other stuff that we've touched on,

Starting point is 03:04:09 but have not gotten to yet today, though, just as a, as a pure definition, we've been talking about all these lost cities today, but you're referring, you refer to like the seven lost cities. Is that right? Something like that? Like like that like what what what can you just explain that yeah well the seven lost cities it's it's a really vague um it's a really vague legend but basically um i man i forget the uh once you once you go north of like the mex uh the mexican valley um oh man i'd love to touch on the aztecs for just a second here in a moment, but because this kind of has something to do with the, with the seven lost cities, but the, the seven lost cities, I'm not an expert in this story. I just kind of come across it as I read

Starting point is 03:04:55 about the ancient Southwest, but basically it's thought that there were seven giant cities in the ancient Southwest United States. So that would be uh new mexico arizona nevada utah um it goes up it goes up a little bit more north than that and it's also west texas as well so that's like the ancient southwest yeah yeah so uh and i've seen some of these sites in in uh in um west texas so basically there's some kind of legend. Oh, it's also North Mexico in the Chihuahuan desert. There, there's a lot of ancient cities there, but it basically said that there was the legend was that there was seven lost cities of gold and riches, um, that it wasn't, um, man, it was, uh, San, uh, was it San Jose? It was something like that.

Starting point is 03:05:45 But there was a Spanish explorer who was kind of there. He's kind of one of those guys like Cortez, Oriana, Pizarro. He's one of those guys. And he trekked across the American southwest looking for these lost cities. And he found a lot of stuff, but it wasn't like these cities of gold that he had heard of. And gold likely got conflated with other things that were of value. Because once you get north of Panama, you're not really finding gold on the surface where ancient Americans could mine gold out of the ground. It became like jade, copper, iron, different things like that that they were using, and jade really being the main thing so um you know had the spanish been looking for jade they would have found out you know they would have

Starting point is 03:06:32 been filthy rich but they were just looking for gold so these seven lost cities it was likely a lot of it may have been true as far as you know there probably were seven big cities at one time between like Mogollon culture and Navajo culture that are in the Southwest. And there definitely were more than seven of these giant cities, but not full of gold. That one is probably actually completely a myth. But have you ever heard of the myth of Aztlan? Aztlan? Aztlan? This is similar to the seven lost cities. Does this have to do with the Aztecs?

Starting point is 03:07:13 Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's similar. Yeah, so Aztlan is where the Azte thought and is described by the Aztecs as being exactly in the same place as the seven lost cities in the Southwest United States. So it's very likely that the Aztecs did descend. And what's another interesting is that they said that they descended from like seven cave systems as well. So you have these seven lost cities, seven cave systems, maybe there's some kind of ancient oral tradition connection there that gets blurred over time, kind of like how we were talking that stories get all mixed up.

Starting point is 03:07:49 So the Aztecs, they have no connection. Like, you know, we throw the Aztecs in with the Maya and the Incas and everything. They have literally no connection to any of those people other than they did try to conquer the Maya and did conquer the Maya in some ways. So the Aztecs, they descended from some place likely in North America that they called Aztlan, which birthed the Aztecs. But something happened to them in Aztlan and they moved south through the Chihuahuan Desert until they ended up in the Mexican Valley. Now I'll preface this by saying we know all of this because Aztecs wrote this down and they told Spanish chroniclers as well. So Spanish chroniclers meeting the Aztecs wrote down Aztec history.

Starting point is 03:08:31 And I'll get into a second if you remind me about just how much we've lost of Aztec in Maya writing as well. So the Aztecs, they come down from somewhere in North America. They were expelled from their society because they were so savage and so violent. They're nomadic hunting mercenary warrior people trying to find a place to settle. They come down into the Mexican Valley and they really like the Mexican Valley. But all the tribes that are there are relatively peaceful, just normal people, right? Exactly like you and I. They don't want to have to go through their life fighting tooth and nail with other people just for survival. They want to live a decent life. And so the local tribes that are in the Mexican Valley, where Mexico City is today, keep pushing the

Starting point is 03:09:21 Aztecs out saying, you're not welcome here. We don't like your way of life. We don't like your savagery. We want you gone. So they end up, the Aztecs end up winning over this culture called the Calhaucon culture. And so the Calhaucon culture basically tells them, yeah, okay. Yeah. We can, we can use the Aztecs to conquer some of the other cultures around, around us. But the Calhoun were kind of like benevolent, not overly violent, but they wanted to rule the other cultures around the Mexican Valley. So they basically say, okay, the Aztecs are so savage and so violent, we're going to use them as warriors and mercenaries for us, like contract warriors. So we're going to give them this little island that's out in the middle of Lake Texcoco, and we're going to let them this little island that's out in the middle of Lake Tashkoko, and we're going

Starting point is 03:10:07 to let them stay out there. And so, the Aztecs at the same time are trying to find like their homeland where their god, Huistapotli, I think is their god at that time. He basically, you know, they go into like this shamanic trance. They're probably taking like peyote or something like that. And they meet this god that tells them that when you see an eagle, you know, with a snake in its grasp, that's where you'll know that I want you to build your civilization. So they go out to the place that the Calvacan culture tells them, which is the small island in the middle of Lake Texcoco. And basically it's just rocks. It's like barren rocks with small little trees. And the Calvacan people are like, yeah, the Aztecs, they're going to suffer out there. They can't build a city out there.

Starting point is 03:10:50 What they don't realize is that it perfectly fortified. If the Aztecs were going to live there, they're surrounded by water on all sides with only one land entrance. So it's a perfectly fortified area. And so the Aztecs, they get out there and they thrive. And they find the place that their god, Huitztipotli, it's some kind of pronunciation close to that. I'm probably butchering that. But they find the eagle with the serpent in its clutch right there at that little island. And so they start working for the Calvacan people. And as they're working for them, they're collecting money over the course of like 100 years. And so they make a whole bunch of money from conquering other people for the

Starting point is 03:11:30 Calvacan culture, and they're building up their capital called Tenochtitlan. And they're building it up, building it up, building it up. And one of the Aztec priests basically goes into this shamanic state. He meets with their god, Huetzitz-Tipotli, and I'll just call him Huwitz. Meets with Huwitz, and Huwitz tells him, okay, the Aztecs, Tenochtitlan, have risen to a point of prominence that we should be equal with the Calhaucan people. So, I want you to send your prince over there. He's like talking to the king, or he's talking to a priest. I want you to send the prince to the Calvacan people and propose that our prince marries their princess. So they go, they make the proposition, the Calvacan people are like, yeah, the Aztecs are starting to get big, we should probably unite

Starting point is 03:12:14 them and bring them into our, bring them into our empire, into our kingdom. So, they agree, and the Calvacan emperor sends his princess out to Tenochtitlan to marry the prince. And the prince of the Aztecs and the Calvacan princess, they get married, and then the king and the priest take another thing of peyote, meet their god, and their god tells them, we're not going to marry into the Calvacan culture. I want you to take the woman, behead her, rip her skin off, put her skin on the prince's body, put her face on the prince's body, and bring the Calvacan king to Tenochtitlan to show him that we're now going to conquer Calvacan. So, they invite the king of Calvacan over to Tenochtitlan, and they bring him into the city, and then they show him his daughter's skin and her face on the prince's body. And they butchered her and beheaded her, and he's sitting there in shock, and they cut his head off. And then they invade Calvacan and take over Calvacan and conquer all of the surrounding tribes that wouldn't let them into

Starting point is 03:13:26 the mexican valley so you're talking about don't ever say we don't live in the best time in human history that's all i'm saying so you're talking about god you're talking about like savagery on another level and these people so this is so the aztecs have come in and they're ruling with an iron fist now okay yeah you don't you don't say and they're they're they're in the mexican valley and so this is about this is about the late 1300s maybe like 1375 ad okay they're they're ruling over all of mexico now, mostly over all of Mexico. The only fledgling survivors are the late post-classic Maya that are still living in the Yucatan.

Starting point is 03:14:13 But the Maya are on the downhill. They're falling. But the Maya have never met the Aztecs. They don't have any connection. But the Aztecs are moving slowly from what the modern-day city of Mexico is up into the Yucatan, slowly taking over everything. But they start hitting the jungles. It gets really tough to fight against the Maya people in the jungles when the Aztecs are only from the desert. So basically, there's a little bit of archaeological evidence to show that the Aztecs had gone through. So the Maya

Starting point is 03:14:44 had abandoned all of their highlands. So the Maya highlands were actually in the Southern Maya region. So when the Maya collapse happened, whatever caused the civilization to collapse, it made them go north into the Yucatan. So all these Southern areas, that's like Chiapas, Mexico through Guatemala and Belize, where the mountains are, were mostly abandoned. These are like very small, remote farming villages. And the Aztecs go through and mow all these people down. And they go all the way up. Have you heard of the city of Tulum, which is in Cancun, Mexico?

Starting point is 03:15:13 Yes, of course. So the city of Tulum, they had occupied the city of Tulum. And we find like scant archaeological evidence of like their pottery and the fact that there were Aztecs relics there that kind of paint a picture of them traveling across. And so what they had done is they had surrounded the Maya lowland regions where the Maya are living in the Yucatan. And they were about to basically forge an assault on the Maya and conquer all of the Maya right when Cortez showed up. And, yeah, they were about to conquer all of Mexico.

Starting point is 03:15:51 And then Cortez shows up in the year 1519, and they think that he is Veracostia. And, man, then they get conquered within like three years, four years. It was quick. Yeah. It was quick. Yeah. But I say that they were only able to do that because so many of the surrounding, like just because the Aztecs conquered everybody doesn't mean that they killed everybody. And there are reports that they were sacrificing 80,000 people a day.

Starting point is 03:16:23 That might be exaggerated. That might be exaggerated. But like what is it only 40 true so what 35 000 people were being sacrificed today and they were having their skin peeled off and it was a normal thing it was it was a normal thing for the aztecs to like slip into the skin of their victims and and dance around and like scare the normal people you know and the azte Aztecs, they weren't self-sacrificial like the Maya were. Like the Maya, if you won the Maya ball game, the winning team was sacrificed to their god, Kukulkan. Oh, it's a great honor to win. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now we can go fucking die.

Starting point is 03:16:57 The winning team, yes. The prettiest girl of the city, the most well-loved girl, she was going to get sacrificed. You know, the Maya... Just killing their evolution, man. Exactly. Yeah. The Maya sacrificed all of their best people, but the Aztecs are like, I'm not doing that. We're going to capture all those people and then sacrifice them. So the Aztecs are all of these little tribes and villages and small cities that were around the Mexican Valley that wanted the Aztecs gone,

Starting point is 03:17:32 the Cowacan culture accepting them destroyed the whole, basically all of Mexico by accepting them and allowing them to build up their wealth to conquer everything. So think about how many undertones of like rebellion were around where people were like, I hate these people. Spanish show up who are just as vicious as the aztecs and it's like you know these two unstoppable forces at each other but then you have people who are also natives undermining the aztecs so they're telling all the aztec secrets to the spanish like yeah get rid of those people and help us and then but really it didn't help any of them because they're all right around yeah they all just died from disease or the spanish didn't even care and they killed them anyways made them give up their culture made them give up all their history um it's crazy that this is 600 years ago something like that i know this is not that long

Starting point is 03:18:17 ago and when we look at the context of the world like we haven't talked about the age of earth and all that no we'll get to that but when you at it, and then you look at some of the other symbols and customs that seem to tie the Western world and Eastern world together long before this, you wonder about, like, that lost history when there was contact. Like, we already talked about theoenicians and stuff like that it gets you it gets you to things like the pyramids and what the what the significance is there and actually on that note all right guys that takes us to the end of part one of two of my sit down with luke caverns so if you haven't already, please smash that subscribe button, hit that notifications bell

Starting point is 03:19:06 so that you find out when the new episode comes out in a couple of days and I will see you then. And also if you don't mind, please hit that like button on the video because that's a huge help. Finally, here's another episode from the podcast for you guys to check out in the meantime.

Starting point is 03:19:18 Thank you.

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