Julian Dorey Podcast - 😱 [VIDEO] - Frightening JFK Evidence Links NAZI Commando to Assassination | Stu Wexler • #160

Episode Date: October 3, 2023

- SIGN UP FOR MyBookie: https://www.mybookie.ag/mobile-betting/  - Julian Dorey Podcast MERCH: https://legacy.23point5.com/creator/Julian-Dorey-9826?tab=Featured - Support Our Show on PATREON: https://www.patreon.com/JulianDorey  (***TIMESTAMPS in description below) ~ Stuart Wexler is an author and researcher. Stu’s investigative journalism work over the years includes the JFK Assassination, MLK Assassination, RFK Assassination, and CIA Covert Operations. Buy Stu’s Book on MLK Assassination, “Killing King”: https://shorturl.at/abM04  ***TIMESTAMPS*** 0:00 - Biden & The Kennedy Files; Why Files may never be released; John Newman’s JFK Investigations 6:06 - Lee Harvey Oswald & the CIA Pre JFK Assassination 13:52 - Stu’s theory on Lee Harvey Oswald; What Oswald & John F Kennedy had in common 17:57 - Oswald’s agenda & role in JFK Assassination 22:22 - How much did JFK know about Fidel Castro Assassination attempt? 24:59 - JFK & Mafia in 1960 election; Joseph Kennedy’s relationship w/ mafia 29:42 - Johnny Roselli & connection to JFK 33:36 - Oswald’s Patterns 35:55 - Charles Waters, Jack Bowen & Oswald Impersonation; Joe Bonanno ties to JFK 42:39 - Stu’s less sinister take on Oswald / Jack Bowen 45:14 - JFK’s brother Bobby post-assassination; Bobby vs the Mob 46:46 - Che Guevara; Stu’s father’s theory on JFK Assassination 53:05 - New Docs Prove JFK Cover-up? Cuba, Castro & Bay of Pigs 56:36 - CIA Director Allen Dulles, the Nazis, Operation Paperclip & Otto Skorzeny 1:04:41 - Mossad 1:09:16 - Nazis & JFK Theory 1:14:32 - Hitler’s Death; The Nazi Ratlines; Modern German Nazis in South America Story 1:20:16 - Nazi West Berlin Guerrilla Warfare Plot 1:24:16 - Otto Skorzeny & Post WW2 Assassin Network; Stu’s Theories on JFK 1:33:02 - Miami Fontainebleau Hotel JFK Assassination Plot; Why JFK was killed 1:37:56 - Stu’s view on the CIA Covert Operations 1:42:16 - CIA Shadow Warrior, Ric Prado & CIA Counterterror ops in US 1:47:36 - Iran Contra; CIA’s point of view on world 1:50:26 - Runaway Trolley Experiement; Comparing Dictators 1:56:49 - Why Stalin & Hitler hated each other 1:59:04 - 2 phase conspiracy cover-up of JFK Assassination (blaming Castro) 2:02:39 - Stu’s best hypothesis on JFK Assassination 2:09:25 - Oswald’s real role in JFK Assassination 2:13:28 - The George Joannides JFK Files 2:15:31 - How close did CIA come to killing Castro?; Silvia Odio connection w/ Oswald & Cuba 2:21:44 - CIA’s Castro Assassination Plan for Veradero Beach; Carl Jenkins & Gene Wheaton 2:30:29 - Kiki Camarena Murder 2:34:49 - Oswald & MK Ultra 2:45:29 - Stu expands upon potential JFK Assassination Theories & CIA 2:49:17 - Pentagon & JFK Assassination; Curtis LeMay connections to UFOs 2:53:09 - Stu walks us through JFK Assassination Scene 2:55:46 - The bungled JFK Autopsy 3:00:29 - Magic Bullet Theory 3:06:04 - Lone Shooter vs Multiple Shooters 3:12:13 - Tink Thompson’s investigation of JFK Assassination 3:15:40 - Stu’s books on MLK & CIA ~ Get $150 Off The Eight Sleep Pod Pro Mattress / Mattress Cover (USING CODE: “JULIANDOREY”): https://eight-sleep.ioym.net/trendifier Julian's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/julianddorey ~ Music via Artlist.io ~ Julian Dorey Podcast Episode 160 - Stu Wexler Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up, guys? If you're on Spotify right now, please follow the show so that you don't miss any future episodes and leave a five-star review. Thank you. surrounding an organized crime like Bonanno and the coup in Dallas scores Annie Lafitte plot. What if it's a mix? That's why this case is so crazy because it can be. Because the Pentagon had a close relationship with Otto scores Annie according to Gannis. Specifically Lemnitzer who is the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Thank you. It's a perversion. Henry Lee, who is very famous as a forensic chemist.

And by the way, who I once ate lunch with, he and his wife, because I spoke at a JFK conference that he was at. A JFK conference. There are JFK conferences every year. Oh, I got to go to one of these. Yeah. So Dallas, this year is the 60th. It's going to be big time. In Dallas.

In Dallas. I've gone probably 12, 13 times. COVID interrupted. I emcee several of them. Holy, how many people go to these things? So it depends on the year, but we could get up to 100. My guess is this year there will be 300 to 400 because it's the 60th because of what Biden recently did with the files. And which was what?

So he basically ended the JFK Records Act as we know it. In English? He did that. So there was a board that existed in the early 90s to the late 90s for three or four years that was tasked with reviewing classified records on the Kennedy assassination and releasing them either in part or in full. And they did a very good job at releasing a lot of them, but there were fights that were put up by a number of agencies, and some records got put to the side, and they were postponed for a later date, and that date has passed. But what happened was the president has – and the White House and whatever the administration is – has a role to play in deciding whether or not they're going to be released at that later date and first trump and now biden decided nope we're or we're going to release some but we're not going to release all of them keep in mind these are 60 year old records so what kind of stuff has to be in there for it to actually be a violation of either national security

or sources and methods well this is where i'm going to speak out of both sides of my mouth hypocritically but i i would love to get your thoughts on this and this is where i i understand let's say for the sake of argument and i think it's a pretty damn good argument that there were multiple people in a high level at the CIA at the time in 1963 who are probably dead now who at the very least had prior knowledge that this was going to go down, which makes you a part of it as far as I'm concerned. Even if they weren't acting in their capacity as whatever their role was at the CIA because I know a lot of people there had no idea this was going to happen, even if they weren't doing that. Perhaps, and this would be the argument for the presidents who have kicked this down the curb. Perhaps it is such a big secret that if they release that information, just simply confirming that and saying, here are the guys.

They're dead. Even though 60 years ago, the group of America, like the people of the country would not want the cia to ever exist again i think that's i think that's a very logical assessment for at least why a decent part of i think it either is so embarrassing on the specific issue of the kennedy assassination that it would do that very thing you say or it's so embarrassing on something else like uh just throwing out a hypothetical like we were collecting blackmail information on an allies president or something that somehow leaks into those records that we never want to admit it because the public or our friends or somebody will all be like wow can't they redact that kind of thing though if there were like a contemporaneous

or whatever extemporaneous point i would hope except that i think what you find with the kennedy assassination documents is there's it's very rarely stuff that's directly connected to the kennedy assassination it's almost all indirect and the really good researchers put together the puzzle, and we could talk some about that. Please, yeah, explain that. So let me give you – and we could potentially lead this into the discussion of what my specific take on why this is the case. There's a superb researcher by the name of John Newman. He was a former military intelligence analyst dating all the way back to the end of Vietnam got way up into the National Security Agency. So he knows all like techniques and stuff to process documents and create patterns and stuff like that.

How do you spell his name? Newman, N-E-W-M-A-N. Okay. And he's obsessive about the Kennedy assassination, has been for 30 to 40 years. Okay. The Kennedy assassination has been for 30 to 40 years. And what he established very clearly was if you look at not just the content of documents but the routing sheets, who's getting what when and who's signing off as having read what when? Stuff that seems seemingly innocuous becomes incredibly suspicious, and one of the best cases of this is in September of 1963 to October of 1963. Lee Harvey Oswald is supposed to have gone to Mexico City. This is a huge rabbit hole I could talk a little bit more about.

Okay, if we're not going to talk about it can we definitely come back to that oh yes let's we'll cycle back very shortly right all right just i don't want to bury that one right no it's it's huge so he is supposed to or an imposter as i'll get to is supposed to have visited the soviet embassy and the Cuban consulate down there, supposedly to get to Cuba. And so this would, under even normal circumstances, if you and I did it, would set off some red flags. So the CIA has stations all around the world, the Mexico City Station. They write up to CIA headquarters in Langley, Virginia. They say, we got a guy here who is wanting to go to Cuba and maybe Russia during the height of the Cold War. Do you have any information on him? Is he – because we want to find out if he's up to no good, if he's a spy, what have you. writes them back in Mexico City. CIA headquarters writes back to Mexico City Station, says

we have barely anything on this guy. He defected to the Soviet Union a while back and came back with a Russian wife, but really we have nothing about him doing anything since that point in time and as of now

we're talking like it's maybe a paragraph, two paragraphs, so that's that. of urgency that you would if you also found out that when he went to the Soviet Union, he is purported to have alleged to want to threaten to give away secrets, and he had worked at the U-2 spy base, which is our most secret-held spy equipment at the time. Having worked there, he threatened, when he defected at the American embassy in the Soviet Union, to basically give that information to the Soviets. He came back, yes, with a Soviet wife, which should be – Huge red flag.

Right. How did she get back here? And then – and this is the real key that they left out. He didn't just go into a hole for two years. He on and off again was engaged in pro-Castro situations, in ongoing communications with the Soviet embassy, with people back in the Soviet Union that it may have been innocent, but if you're the Mexico City embassy and you know that a defector to the Soviet Union in the height of the Cold War came back after having threatened to give away secrets, was hostile to the FBI. That was in the records when they tried to interview him and had maintained –

Wait, when did they try to interview him? So – well, there's two elements to that story. They should have done an official debrief. They did that to thousands of people who did not threaten to give away military secrets when they defected, right? Yeah. Right? They did not supposedly do that with military secrets when they defected, right? Yeah. Right? They did not supposedly do that with Lee Harvey Oswald, they being the CIA.

And so now you have a group of people who say, well, that's a sign that he must have been a spy or they would have interviewed him. But then there's another group of people who say they probably did interview him, but then the question becomes, well, then why wouldn't they admit it? That would have been a normal thing to admit. It maybe would have caused people to go look at what he said right which also could be because he was a spy but the cia headquarters knew a lot about lee harvey oswald from files that were circulating to them from the fbi and we know that because we have what to the point with Newman, we have routing sheets, where people are receiving the records that say all of this about Oswald all the way up to within a few weeks of his going to Mexico City. So the they claim the latest information they had was this little bit of information up to May of 1962. They had plenty more. We're talking documents that were dozens of pages all the way up to the weeks before he came when he was arrested, by the way, for sent to Mexico City. We only know that because of the routing sheets.

And because of those routing sheets, we have to ask the question, why would CIA headquarters present a false and incomplete picture to their own people in Mexico City? And it doesn't have to be speculation because Newman and a reporter for the Washington Post who does a lot of work that we could talk about related to the Kennedy assassination, former reporter for The Washington Post now named Jeff Morley. They went and found the people who signed off on those documents that claimed there was no up-to-date information. One of them was a woman by the name of Jane Roman. She was a career by name of jane roman uh she was a career counterintelligence officer and she was long retired by this point but when they confronted

her with the material and the routing when is this approximately when they confronted her yeah they confronted her in 1994 1995 this is when the files start to first leak out um from the not leak but be released by the review board that we were talking about. And when they show it to Jane Roman, she says, well, it looks like I'm signing off on something that I know to be untrue, right? But that's not the craziest thing she says. Next thing she says is, look, I had nothing to do with all the Cuban hanky-panky, which is a reference to the fact that we were trying to minimally sabotage and almost definitely assassinate Fidel Castro.

It's not even a – no question asked. It's just a matter of how often we tried, right? Rather haphazardly, but we were trying. And she said, but when they asked her, how would you interpret all of these documents together, this is a career CIA person, right? This isn't like some – this isn't like Matt Gaetz or somebody in weaponization of Congress or something. This is a career CIA person. Well, the best interpretation I can give is that this particular wing of the CIA, this compartment, they're highly compartmentalized. It's called the Special Affairs Staff. We're running an operation involving Lee Harvey Oswald.

This is two months before this guy is accused of killing the president of the United States on a strict need-to-know basis, and Mexico City, the people in Mexico City Station, did not need to know. Now, that's what happens when you get a full blast of all of these records. None of it explicitly is Kennedy assassination related directly to Dallas, but it sure raises a serious question. If she is right, then why would the CIA be running an operation involving Lee Harvey Oswald two months before the assassination? This is where you can get into my interpretation of it is. And that is? He was not just a complete dupe that was almost a robot for some agency. Meaning he had very – let's say the attitudes he had towards communism or towards United State policy were real. I think they were largely real.

I think in his own mind, he was a leftist. Now, when you read his actual readings, it's like anarcho-libertarian. It's a real weird kind of conglomeration of ideas. In his own mind, he was a leftist. But what he really was, something he actually had in common with JFK, he was obsessed with the allure of the spy world. They both loved James Bond novels. Right? Kennedy famously wanted to badly meet Ian Fleming, the author of James Bond novels. Oswald read those novels vociferously. Vociferously. And not just those novels. His

favorite show going up was The Man Who Led Three Lives, a guy who was a triple agent. It was a TV show. And so I think he was motivated by that kind of sort of mystique. I think he was a leftist in his own mind. I think that explains a lot of the contradictions in what you see in terms of the behavior. But I also think people who could figure that out were capable of manipulating him. And so I believe that Oswald was on the periphery of intelligence operations ever since he went to the Soviet Union.

Why would they – here's what I can't wrap my head around. If he gets on the map, so to speak, in Mexico City – I think it was just before, but go ahead. Okay. So he gets on the map there, though, where he gets questioned by – did you say it was the FBI who questioned him? That's who questioned him when he got back from Russia in 1961. Okay. Meaning there is now – and I'm thinking like a spy.

Let's say he's an asset, right? And let's say that I'm a spy who is looking to use him in some sort of plot to kill John F. Kennedy. He now has a file. Why would you put him in – like why would that not remove him from the plot? Because now there is a paper trail that one day will completely lead back to him because there was a red flag flown on him two months before so the file we have the explicit file explicit paints a picture of a lone deranged defector to the soviet union you have to dig really deep into things like john what john newman does you have to put together routing sheets and chronologies. There was no expectation in 63 that anyone

would even have access to this stuff, much less be able to put that together. And so, and it's still controversial. Not everyone buys into Newman's interpretation of A and B, right? But that's the big thing,

is that the argument, and I agree with it, that somebody like Newman makes is, what's going to be removed from the files is anything explicit. You're going to have to go two to three levels deep to even figure it out. And in fact, there's no way for them to get their fingerprints off of any of this to that extent. They can get rid of all of top secret documents and be able to weave together the story. When I say he has his own agenda, I think he was – and I can go into some of the evidence of this.

I believe he was approached by left-wing anti-Castro people. And so that way – or I should actually change that. People who claimed to be left-wing anti-Castro – so they appealed to his leftism. And really what they appealed to was he never had any intention of being recruited into what he was recruited to, which I believe was a Castro assassination plot. He had never had any intention of following through. He was a convenient person for them to reach out to to try and participate in such a plot because the only people who were getting near Castro in any physical proximity by 63 because he was a smart man, he realized how many people were trying to kill him, were people who were Americans with a pro castro openly pro castro affinity and he was using them for propaganda purposes guess what everybody it is that time of year again football season is officially upon us and you know what that means it is time to place those bets as a better you demand perfection, and MyBookie delivers.

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top right corner and then use promo code DORY, D-O-R-E-Y, on a deposit of $50 or more to get up to $200 injected instantly right into your account. Once again, click that link below and use the promo code DORY, D-O-R-E-Y, on your first $50 deposit or more and get cash quick. Thank you so much to MyBookie for supporting our podcast. Please show them some love with a download today. So if you want to kill or get near Castro in 1963, you need to get to somebody who has overt, atwing, anti-Castro exiles in an embarrassing fashion for him. But he had – I mean who could – he was right out there with the pro-Castro stuff.

He's part of his own self-made Fair Play for Cuba committee cell in new orleans which also kind of flood this is one thing that i know there's multiple arguments going in either direction that you can make the case for or against but you know kennedy was the guy who was shutting down some of the hawkishness towards a castro more specifically like towards the soviet union it's not to say he shut down everything, but like the Bay of Pigs was an embarrassment and stuff like that. And at the point that he died or was murdered, I should say, it would seem to me like not like Castro would be a fan. But like why would you rather have Lyndon B. Johnson over John F. Kennedy? Well, I don't agree with that logic especially from the perspective of of lee harvey oswald if he's a legitimate leftist right but but from the perspective of of american

you know right wingers you would definitely want kennedy removed and lyndon johnson in there now if now if i can intervene it's a very interesting thing with trying to interpret John Kennedy and his policies. And I think part of the issue is that John Kennedy, in my opinion – this won't earn me a lot of fans with the people at those conferences. You have people who portray him as this hardcore Cold Warrior, but then you have in the communities that i'm a part of think he was you know low-key trying to end the cold war and i think the problem that people have and this is why he was i hate to put it this way ripe to be assassinated is he played both sides he had two tracks so he was closing down a lot of the larger or winding down a lot of the larger anti-castro operations in part because he did not trust the cia in full but bobby was running some side operations this is gonna get me into all sorts of trouble.

And if RFK Jr. hears it, he won't like it. But we have the records of the meetings where he's with the special group augmented. Bobby had his own clique of exiles who he trusted. And he was the attorney general. Correct. But also Kennedy's closest advisor. Yes. closest advisor yes and the guy after the bay of pigs in the missile crisis when kennedy's faith in the leadership of the cia was at an all-time low he basically appointed bobby to

to run the most sensitive stuff they hated him by the way cia hated him more than they hated jfk because of the way he did that okay i'll let you keep going so stop you so john f kennedy plays both sides i believe that's why there's such a difficult time interpreting what he was doing in vietnam he was without question making overtures to castro to normalize relations with cuba at the same time there's very little doubt that he was still behind the scenes or at least people underneath him with his sort of loose approval engaged in anti-Castro operations to sabotage that could have even included Castro's assassination. There's a big debate to what extent did the Kennedy brothers know about the assassination attempts on fidel castro i happen to be in the camp that they at least were so strenuous in why can't you guys get rid of this regime that going after him by way of assassination castro was something that was a reasonable interpretation by any of the people below them.

They made the mistake of using the mafia to do that. It might have been they, the CIA. And Bobby was very anti-mafia. Bobby was the most aggressive anti-mafia attorney general we probably have ever had and by far relative to the people before him. All right. We're going to have to come back to some of this stuff because we got to go right on that. So with Bobby, the great irony of JFK to me is that he actually never should have been president. Now, in hindsight, we look at – you just spoke about some of his maybe doublespeak with certain policies. But when I've looked at him, like the guy seems to be – he seems to be a guy who didn't have time to put in things but was a really solid president.

Either way, if we can agree to disagree for a minute there, he didn't really win that election in 1960. Go ahead. You're going to go with mafia? Yes. Set up. I think when you dig deep, and I used to be of that mind, i think that's a greatly overstated how so so if you look at the first of all if you look at some of the allegations like so some of some of the foundational stuff that like joe kennedy was a bootlegger like there's no evidence of that

what no evidence that joe kennedy was a bootlegger one of the greatest i think myths that were put out there i don't even know where it started if you dig you will find virtually nothing to support the idea that joe kennedy was a bootlegger what but i so i had i had sal banano sitting in your seat seven months ago how well did your grandfather know joseph kennedy they did business together in the bootlegging times and my grandfather didn grandfather didn't like him because they were smuggling immigrants and they were smuggling alcohol or whiskey. And if they were getting chased and they needed to lighten the load, they would throw the people overboard, the immigrants overboard before the alcohol. And my grandfather just hated Joe Kennedy because of that. His grandfather effectively invented the mafia

as we know it in the United States. That is not what his grandfather said. His grandfather confirmed all that. His grandfather told him while he was alive Joe Kennedy was the biggest fucking scumbag of them all. He gave specific stories about being a bootlegger.

In fact, he said that they used to have – they used to have – like the reason he didn't like Kennedy was because when they were bringing Hooch into the United States by way of like Ireland to Canada, he would toss immigrants who they'd be smuggling in overboard if things were getting too heavy, and he wouldn't toss the alcohol overboard. See, here's my only thing. The Kennedy family already had a decent amount of money by that time and political power and influence. They really didn't need to engage in bootlegging. Do you know how much fucking money was in bootlegging? Well, I understand, but there's also risks involved for especially somebody who's looking to be in politics and to get all of his children into the White House. There's huge risks involved if you get exposed. But he paid off – but all the – but that's the problem. All the politicians drank. Well, here's the thing. They were all paid off.

I'm – my sense of things is that a lot of times mafia folks, like children of mafia folks, I give – I take their stuff with a grain of salt because i don't blame you for that because i think they tend to exaggerate i've seen people the amount of mafia people who've claimed that they've you know they had connections with marilyn monroe they slept with marilyn monroe they placed themselves and and it's also the amount of different mafia families that were supposedly behind the Kennedy assassination. If you believe their children and their family members, you never can get that many rival mafia people. But if they all were – but I must say, if they all were in on it and you believe all of these children, people i want to say there's mutually exclusive claims now there's definitely some people out there who i don't know about who are making claims who are with lower level people as family members or something like that and i'll agree with you and i do agree with

your premise that there is an exaggeration that happens in that space it's very natural but when we're talking about the people who were allegedly involved you look at sam giancana in chicago sure you look at trafficante marcello in tampa and new orleans yes and then you look at sam g and connor in chicago sure you look at trafficante marcello in tampa and new orleans yes and then you look up north and obviously you have the five families who are part of everything because what all these people have in common they're all on the commission and the commission was the central and that is true we know that that exists still exists to this day it's a centralized basically governance of the underworld of the mafia so that's not even if there's some guys in there don't like each

other that are quote-unquote a little bit rivals they're acting on the same accord there this was when they were with the backing of they had the backing of murder inc behind these decisions as well yeah but we also have very extensive in some cases uh very extensive in some cases uh electronic surveillance of these people, including transcripts. Like, for instance, Johnny Roselli is very frequently involved in stories about the Kennedy assassination. And I had been – you would have asked me 10 years ago. He would have been near the top of my list. It's truck month at gmc tackle the open road with added confidence in a 2025 sierra 1500

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It was almost daily, 24-7, and there is no sign of when he could have pulled this off if he was involved. What do you mean by that? In other words, they're following who he's meeting with. They're listening to his conversations both on the phone and bugged in his buildings, in his apartments. In 1963. Oh, yeah. And in the year before and in the years after. He was way up at the top of the list.

And you're talking about a guy who when they started investigating the Kennedy assassination in the 70s, he got killed and literally chopped up before he could testify. But then look at him. He came forward and spun a story where Castro was involved that just doesn't seem plausible, and yet he testified to it under oath. He claimed that there was an assassination team that was sent after Castro that was basically literally brainwashed to go after JFK. Yeah, I've heard some claims like that. Right. And I don't agree with it. I have to actually – we could agree to disagree because I have to actually listen to the Bonanno podcast with you. Yeah.

And I'll evaluate it from there. Bonanno is himself a very interesting figure. Like that particular subfamily tends to get ignored in the Kennedy assassination lore and they would actually be very close to the top of my list of families to look into yeah I think he is

a really unique one because he was also a different kind of guy he had a little bit of self-aggrandizement thing after his career for sure just like all of them but you know you kind of think of your stereotypical mobster and people don't think of like vito corleone who seems like this you know smart whatever guy joe banana was the closest thing to that he wasn't quite that but joe banana was a genius and he spoke all kinds of languages he used to read like you know he would

read like greek literature for fun like he was one of those so when he wrote his book a man of honor in 1983 there's certainly things to argue with in there when he talks about oh he never knew there were drugs or stuff like that like i don't believe that but you know i agree with you you still take things with a grain of salt. I think that was – there was a lot more to that than others that we see or, for instance, some of the guys who are like rats who run around online and make all these claims. with the senior Bonanno out of Arizona and the overlooked claims of his involvement in the Kennedy assassination and some of the stuff I've looked into most recently, which is super obscure. Can you explain it? Sure.

So there – I became very interested. I get down to some very obscure rabbit holes where other researchers don't go because my obsession, just generally speaking, is I'm trying to get to Oswald in Dallas. So no matter what happens, my argument is whether you think he was a complete patsy or he was told to go shoot John Kennedy alone if there's a conspiracy, whoever is involved has to be able to manipulate and influence his actions in Dallas in those weeks before or he's going to have a foolproof, ironclad alibi potentially when you're trying to set him up for the assassination. In other words, you have to know where he's going to be on that day. He could call out sick.

You have to know he's going to be in the building. He can't be around witnesses, right? Even if he's not on the sixth floor with the gun, and he might have been, you have to be able to influence his actions as part of a conspiracy. So to me, the number one thing that is left to do in the Kennedy assassination lore is to find who in Dallas was in that position, because we could get them to Mexico City. We could go to New Orleans, but that's still two months before and three months before, which is why with Bonanno, the other family that I'm very interested in, the other organized crime group is the actual group in Dallas for which there's an interesting story.

But I got into this one particular – I got into Oswald's map. This is the very first thing. Oswald had a map where he circled buildings in Dallas, right? Because I'm trying to figure out. Do we know that it was him who had this map? Like he actually had it? Well, it gets a little bit controversial he definitely had it but there's another guy who knew him by the name of michael pain who claims that he circled some of the the places on the map and again rabbit hole michael pain becomes a very interesting person because michael pain is almost and i don't want i don't

know i don't want to you know go out and just say he's giving the government what they want all the time. But virtually any time there's something super suspicious, Michael Payne will show up on the scene and say something. Oh, no, no, that was me. That was my camera. No, they looked in my sea bag. Those were my pictures, right? So in this case, I'm suspicious because he wasn't even certain himself. And so what are the buildings that are circled?

One of them is an auto shop called Moore Chevrolet. And the great thing about the documents nowadays that have been released as part of that Rebecca Review Board is they've been scanned and OCRed so you can digitally search them. So you throw in Moore Chevrolet and you start digging. There's two angles that it leads to. One of them is to a gentleman by the name of Charles Waters, who you will find virtually nothing on if you read books and stuff on the Kennedy assassination. But he shows up twice in what clearly appear to be very well-established efforts to impersonate Lee Harvey Oswald while Lee Harvey Oswald's in Russia. One of them is in New Orleans on behalf of an anti-Castro group to get trucks for the

Bay of Pigs invasion. And then later, in an airfield, in an airport, like planes for the Bay of Pigs situation, he shows up again, this guy Charles Waters. In both instances, he's part of Assassin, including one time where he himself appears to be portraying himself as Lee Harvey Oswald. So Oswald circled more Chevrolet on a map, and I find out that a guy that when I dig digging is credibly involved in two impersonations of Oswald in 1961 worked there. What are the odds that Oswald circles on a map a place where he worked? Now, he worked there in 62 and part of 63. He worked in a different auto shop by November of 1963.

If you follow where Oswald went after John F. Kennedy gets killed, he takes a bus and a cab and he winds up – he doesn't park directly at his rooming house. He parks several blocks down. Typically, and I don't necessarily disagree, this is portrayed as maybe Oswald's looking to see if anybody has figured out where he lives and walked less than a minute, we're talking across the block, you would have been at the auto shop that Charles Waters was working with on November 22, 1963. Son of a bitch. Yeah. Now, what else is interesting about Charles Waters? He works for H.L. Hunt, who's a right-winger. He's very involved in anti-Castro operations himself. waters is friends with somebody who worked with oswald when oswald was employed at jagger styles choval which is a government which is interesting uh based contractor that handles developing a film and photographs including spy stuff now oh and that ties to his – yeah. And Oswald used it and his address on a library card in Dallas as like a reference so that he could get a library card in Dallas.

So the FBI goes looking for this guy after the assassination. It turns out that Jack Bowen wasn't Jack Bowen. Jack Bowen is actually a career criminal by the name of Jack Caesar Rossi who had left town not long after he had engaged Oswald. One of the places that Jack Bowen had stayed in in the 1960s was at Joe Bonanno's ranch. Son of a bitch. Yeah, yeah. And he knew another guy by the name of Peek Licavoli. So wait.

He's staying at Joe – now this is long before Joe gets banished out to that ranch. So this is when he just owns it out there. Correct. He's not at Joe – now, this is long before Joe gets banished out to that ranch. So this is when he just owns it out there. Correct. He's not living there. So is he staying – do you know if he stayed there when Joe was there? Yes, and it's presented as like minor stuff. Like he's just walking through town. He's a ranch hand.

Here's the interesting thing though. For whatever – I guess people who are career criminals like to go to the library because this guy decided to – he was asked, like, where is your library card? And he says, oh, I left it with my friend in Dallas. That's the friend who works at Moore Chevrolet. So put this together for a second. If Oswald walks into Moore Chevrolet looking for someone like Charles Waters, how would he confirm that he's not some government agent or spy? It's tradecraft, right? He has Jack Bowen's endorsed library card the guy who works there has jack bowen's actual library card ah i'll take you to see and then this is speculation i'll

take you to see charles waters now charles waters becomes incredibly interesting because he spends his life and we're talking like it's the fundamental part of his identity as much as being a podcaster as part of yours his life talking about his his time spent in the marines in the military i've had three or four people and we're talking this is a 30-year thing like if this is fake valor right it's the most lengthy one I've ever seen because he's like the guy who runs your VA, right? Like when he died, his whole obit was about his time spent in the military. This is all about that, right? I've had two or three people try and find any record of him being in the military, and nobody can find any.

Now, could that be an after-the-fact scrubbing? It absolutely could be. Yeah. And that's where I think it's probably not fake valor. I think more and more I think it's legitimate. Now, look, there are some people this, with pathological lying and stuff like that. They actually do believe their lies after a while, and they can hold on to it.

But that would be awfully coincidental to have a guy like that with that type of claim in the middle of this particular… And he never mentions anything about his past in New Orleans and Dallas in any of these stories about him later on in his life when it's pretty clear he's impersonating oswald and again the weird thing is he's impersonating oswald when oswald's in the soviet union yes and i don't believe that's because they had a two-year plan to assassinate john kennedy i think it's because and again this puts me on the outs with folks because that's a less sinister motive. I believe it's because when Oswald was in New Orleans, he worked for somebody who was – as like a teenager. He worked for a company called Tujagüez, and the guy who ran Tujagüez was like a real hardcore anti-Castro exile who's part of these groups that come later, including the one that Waters

is a part of. And I think legitimately, if Oswald goes to the Soviet Union, this guy who knows Waters or would have likely known Waters feels like he's a freaking scumbag. Like, I gave you a job, you little communist bastard, right? And you go and go to the Soviet Union. I think he probably said, you know what? Run this guy's name into the ground if you can. Let's – it's almost like a joke. Let's use Lee Harvey Oswald, this punk who I employed. assassinated uh that explicitly wants to use oswald to set him up but waters and his connection to more chevrolet and the connection of more chevrolet to this guy bowen and bowen to banano and licca voley is in licca voley eventually lives on banano's ranch who was licavoli licavoli is like the detroit upper like you know the rust belt

godfather right so he's detroit focused but he i think he goes into cleveland i think he goes into ohio illinois a little bit mostly that's giancana and he – I think that absolutely is an angle that's never been explored, and again, it gets you to people who were in Dallas. Now, I have no direct information that Oswald ever interacted with Charles Waters. All I have is this weird coincidence that he's working at places that are right near where Oswald – even if you think that the drop-off point is a complete coincidence, the actual who could have actually linked up with Oswald and gotten into a position of influence where you could at least know, anticipate, manipulate him and his actions. All right. Before we get to then like theory on how it goes down that day, Can we go back to that Bobby Kennedy thing real quick? So what you had been saying, and you started to explain at least a little bit of it, but John F. Kennedy is purported to have all these Kennedy, his brother, who's the AG at the time, was actually doing an end around and was pro that stuff. Well, I mean I think what basically happened was – and especially at this time, Bobby was a different person after, and we'll probably talk about it when we get to his assassination.

He was a different person after kennedy gets killed he was like a real black and white good or bad whatever it takes person prior to 64 um like for instance he was one of the only people in all of government who said we should not have anything to do with the shah of iran because he's evil right everyone else is like let's use him while we can right bobby's going off on this guy in 6364 um and i think he viewed castro in and and you know if you look at the castro and shay and guys like they did stuff that was pretty freaking psycho i mean shay, Shay was personally executing people without trial. Yeah. You know, shot to the head.

The fact that people wear him on a T-shirt. I ask kids who wear his shirt all the time. Do you know anything about him? You know, at best you get like the motorcycle diaries. I'm like, did you know he used to sit in a like courtyard and shoot people in the head because they were enemies of the revolution, no trial? And that he failed at virtually every one of his efforts to try and overthrow other South American governments. But I think Bobby was willing to do what it took to confront, for instance, Jimmy Hoffa, the mafia. He was willing to, in many ways, if you were a bad guy, he was willing to let the ends justify the means to get you.

So I do think he was hardcore, and neither he nor John had any kind of trust for the CIA. Wait, so he didn't have any trust for it very little he actually so so what i'm saying is the end around is he's taking personal he's choosing his own exiles if there is anyone in the cia it's one of his guys god okay so what you're saying i'm gonna go through somebody like william harvey who hates his guts and is running the assassination program. And by the way, compartmentalized in that assassination program that Will Harvey – well, I should say it this way. The assassination program is within this compartment called Staff D. Staff D's other angle, the other thing Staff D did was surveillance in places like Mexico City.

Oh, how convenient. And the person who despised both Kennedys but especially Bobby, William Harvey, his biographer who hated Kennedy too nonetheless said, I can't be sure this guy didn't kill Kennedy because he hated Kennedy. What was his title at the time? He was – I wish I knew it off the top of my head, but it was something like deputy director of plans. What was his title at the time? He was, you know, I wish I knew it off the top of my head, but it was something like Deputy Director of Plans. What was his first name? William Harvey. Weird guy. He's the most bug-eyed looking guy you've ever seen.

I would say he looks like a CIA spook, huh? Well, like a pudgy CIA spook. So – but to get back to your point, I believe Bobby was part of one of the two arms of John F. Kennedy's efforts to do something about Castro, which is either we're going to normalize relations with them, which would probably be incredibly politically unpopular. You think? Right? Or we're going to see if somehow we can arrange a coup there which is now we're thinking right right but which is also incredibly difficult to pull off and even if we're being fair like my my father may he rest in peace he he did he had the same interpretation but he said that's why castro killed him because castro was sitting there

my father thought you know and my father was a left person, right? Not like socialist but liberal, right? Long time thought that the CIA had killed Kennedy. But in the 70s, my father read the church committee report and saw that we were trying to kill Castro. Then he found out that there was an effort on that on the day before John Kennedy is killed. And he sees Castro saying stuff in September 1963, which certainly seems pretty provocative. And although I disagree with him because why would Castro use somebody who so clearly leads to his door like Lee Harvey Oswald, if Castro is sitting there and hearing reports that Kennedy is trying to make peace overtures through him secretly through the UN and then

finds out that secretly somebody who claims to be a representative of Bobby Kennedy is literally arranging to get him killed, you might say, you know what? Cut the head of the snake off. Cut the head of the snake off. Cut the head of the snake off. But it works in reverse. All those CIA people and anti-Castro exiles who for years had been trying to get rid of Castro, who maybe held resentment towards JFK after the Bay of Pigs, but just said, you know what? At least he's funding these covert operations. You find out through leaks at the United Nations that this guy is trying to do a covert back channel to make normalized relations with Castro.

You feel just as betrayed. And by the way, you don't have to actually at that point even arrange the assassination in any overt way. You could just go to the craziest exiles and say here let me play you a tape we got oh yeah at the united nations and uh you know you hate the guy from the bay of pigs wait until you hear this you see that's possible i've always thought about this i'm glad you bring that up it's always possible to me and there's so many little chess pieces on this board but it's possible that the cover-up happens after the fact because they're covering up the fact that maybe they just lit the spark rather than stoke the flame. Sure.

You know what I mean? Well, one of the things that just came out of documents was the fact that the CIA did seriously – we don't know the results of it surprise surprise investigated their own people and they're investigating their own people yeah i'm so happy to hear that right and which you have to say to yourself if this was just some random lone assassin with no conspiratorial idea what are they why do they even take it seriously that their miami station had something to do with the possible assassination, right? But all we have is one document that says this that was literally just released, and we don't have the actual fruits of that investigation. hated him and he he kind of hated them he was in his own way spying to recruit people as the official like in my brother's ear liaison to the cia and maybe maybe was causing a faction war within cia is that fair to say yes and certainly a faction war within the exile community

because there were exiles who they're very small group who group who love JFK and RFK because they were in on the behind-the-scenes like, oh, he really actually is trying to kill Castro. We just can't say anything about it. Or he's trying to arrange a foment a coup. There's one guy who shows up in this case. He actually – to do this as an exile in Miami is stunning. He actually changed his name legally, his last name, to Kennedy in tribute to Bobby and Jack. Some fucking Cuban guy? Yeah, because his name is Angel Margato. Angel Kennedy now.

It's Angel Margato Kennedy now. He did it because he was part of the select group of Cubans who knew just how anti-Castro Bobby Kennedy really was. of people runs their – please forgive me, all Cubans. I'm not trying to – I happen in part because the exiles in the operation, some of whom were double agents, but some of whom just couldn't keep their mouth shut, were leaking stuff that got reported back into Cuba. So Kennedy didn't fully trust them for that reason, and he did not trust the CIA because they hated – or at least several people, not everybody, because they hated each other. And there are some weird ones that I still can't explain because you'd think he'd hate Alan Dulles, but – and many people think that Alan Dulles, former CIA director, was like the mastermind behind the Kennedy assassination. I'm not one of those. But one of the weirder things is after Kennedy's assassinated, when Bobby's still on as AG, and something that connects the King

assassination, the Mississippi burning killings happen, the three civil rights workers get killed in Mississippi by the Klan, Bobby, we now know behind the scenes, actually lobbied Lyndon Johnson to have Alan Dulles run that investigation. How do we know this?

Because we actually have the recording of Bobby saying it. What? Yeah. There's a faction of people in the research community, and they're good researchers, who are like, Alan Dulles mastered this, and Bobby Kennedy spent his whole life trying to figure out how to get these people. And I say to them, why on God's green earth would he lobby for Alan Dulles to investigate a similar – To make his enemy closer and make him think he's his friend. That is possible. Possible. I just – Alan Dulles was out of the CIA at the time Kennedy's killed the – this sort of – he's running a shadow CIA is the claim that people make.

I just don't see as much – I don't know enough about his right post-career to really comment on that. He was definitely one of the more Kissinger-like scumbags in american history but was it was it dullis i hope i don't have this mixed up with someone my apologies check me in the comments if i do but was it dullis who was hanging around germany a bit in the 30s and didn't mind it so to speak and then when when pearl harbor happened went okay all right all right we'll help dallas had a lot of connections into the what became the nazi community he was a big part of why i don't know if he was a quote-unquote nazi sympathizer but he was a big part of of operation paperclip and the other sort of related operations that got the Nazis, what we call the Galen Organization, sort of the Nazi spy chief getting his people over to the United States to work or stay over there and work on behalf of the most difficult ethical logical equations in the history of the United States, the Operation Paperclip.

Ethically, everything about it is wrong. Logically, that got us to the fucking moon and a lot of other shit. Yes. But oh my god, man. I mean there were people who were literally like killing Jewish slaves one day, and the next day they got a fucking mansion in Huntsville. Well, I'll tell you, one of the most recent and fascinating but perplexing books and theories that have come out has basically pinned the assassination on intelligence, American intelligence basically working through the Nazi leftover groups. So – and through a specific special forces operative by the name of otto scorzini wait the dude with the yeah with the scar the dueling scar yes now otto scorzini he wait a minute i've actually gone through his papers at somebody's house wait a minute

i'm gonna turn off the mics for one sec we'll be right back all right we're back thank you so. So, Otto Skorzeny. Explain how he got into this. So, first off, he's the special forces, special operations guy for the Nazis. Yeah, he was a Nazi. Yes. Like a Nazi Nazi. And so he was the one who was famous for saving Mussolini in like a really daring operation.

Obviously, it didn't work out long term, but like he flew in with commandos to get him out personally. And he's also very famous for the situation at the end of the World War II where he arranged for Germans with fluent, perfect English to dress in American uniforms and try and do operations behind enemy lines. And he is to this day somebody who – somebody like William McRaven, Stanley McChrystal, they all say that he is like the father, as disgusting as it is, of modern special operations. What happens after World War II – so he's actually capturing he's gonna face the you know face the music for war crimes but he basically gets let go literally right like they let him out to say it's an escape right because what happens is he then in this you know if you if you divide intelligence gathering into uh analysis and so gathering and analysis and then covert operations the galen network which a lot of people are familiar with how do you spell that g-e-h-l-e-n that's gathering and uh

analysis right those are the nazis who you leave behind to spy and report, right? One way of potentially looking at Skorzeny, according to some researchers, is he's the operations guy. So if you want to do a dirty operation and you want to do it in Europe and you want somebody who knows all, knows who the people are who know how to get that stuff done and how to train them to get that stuff done, Skorzeny might be the person you go with. And so there's been a book recently called Coup in Dallas, and it's based on the work of a guy named Hank Albarelli and two people.

Hank Albarelli, I used to communicate with him all the time. He and two other researchers, a good friend of mine, Alan Kent, and a woman named Leslie Sharp, who they continued Hank Albarelli and sort of what he thought was a peripheral investigation into the Kennedy assassination goes into an investigation of a sort of a con man of all trades, a sophisticated kind of con man by the name of Pierre Lafitte who had been used if you believe the documentation, which I'll get to, was being used by multiple intelligence agencies because he could forge. He could recruit other criminals. He could even play act. He was a man in that kind of sort of ilk. there's something going on there that can very easily be interpreted if the diary is not a hoax as kennedy assassination related and what it is is the head of cia counterintelligence operations james angleton works with auto scores any in something called operation lancelot to assassinate JFK using the foreign – Angleton was in Italy, right?

He had been for a while. He also ran operations. That's something that's very commonly not known. Like everybody thinks he was just leading a mole hunt in the CIA, but he ran vest pocket operations. Everyone was scared of him because they were scared that he would accuse them of being the mole. So he got away with a lot. But so this diary is supposedly about that and Skorzeny separately.

There's some suspicious stuff with him and they link up in the diary. But the potential problem with this is not that Hank Alvarelli is a fraud and it's not that Leslie and Alan Kent are frauds. It's that you're basing your story on a date book that was created by somebody who you admit was a world – and is documented – world-class con man. And even though you found that diary after he died, who's to say he wasn't plotting up a scam for – to eventually use, and he just died before he could put into effect. And his family provides what they think is something relevant but it's just a diary he faked up and unfortunately in the kennedy assassination we have experience with fake diaries we have experience with con men making very elaborate stories we have experience with grifters who dig deep into the warren commission volumes and get information that like somebody

maybe only i would know and you're sitting there impressed. We have all of that. And so until this thing gets fully authenticated in multiple ways, a lot of us are just – we're just reluctant to dive in. It would solve basically the case if it were true. That is so bizarre. I mean it's's not this whole case is really bizarre it's so much more complicated i've been in the kennedy assassination since i was 13 years old and the rabbit you know and i've done king and i've done rfk and i do you know i'm very into other true crimes, historical true crimes. I created a class. Oh, shit. Yeah, about his – called Crime and History with another teacher, and nothing comes remotely close. People would ask me, but you were into Kennedy assassination long before King and RFK.

And I say the difference between the others and this one is I can't wrap my mind around JFK yet. that there are people in israel within intelligence who had to put aside massive personal beefs with him because of what he did in world war ii and used even used him had to as a spy in egypt when egypt was working on their weapons program sure and it was such a big deal that oh my god what's his name not ellie weisel the other one simon wiesenthal who who was like the greatest nazi hunter of all time who was a survivor of the holocaust it was such a big deal that that apparently massad had to approach him to say you need to take this guy off your target list because we have to use him real quick. And Wiesenthal wouldn't do it. And they actually said, you know what, no problem.

But the fact that this guy was even running in circles with the quite literal enemy of who he had done atrocious things to. Right. And then you find him in the middle of this Kennedy – I mean, dude. Well, he was actually used by Mossad as an assassin to assassinate people, as you said, in the – to assassinate people in the Egyptian rocket program. And you hear mixed reasons as to why, but the one thing that supposedly he did it because, similar to what you said, he actually didn't want the Mossad to assassinate him. So he was willing to assassinate people for them. But after World War II, he trained Egyptian special ops and intelligence services. This is where this argument that he's ostensibly a businessman, but that he's really – That's a nice way to put it.

Even there, it's pretty clear he was into unseemly type of arms dealing. But even beyond that, according to the research of people like Alvarelli, but even more than that, maybe Ralph Gannis, a colonel who was obsessed with him, I saw – who obtained his papers. Skorzeny was – appears to be – although again, I don't think the evidence for this element is as strong. A go-to guy for like covert operations in Europe against the communists. Because you got to remember the Nazis hated Jewish people. They also hated communists. They hated a lot of people. … to go after the Soviets in the Cold War, and he would be, given his background and skill, a pretty good guy to use. And if you asked me, from everything I know, if you wanted to perform like an elite assassination in the 50s and 60s, he would be on my list of guys to pull it off as a mechanic as an operator do you know how insane it would be like we talk about these these files not being released because of what might be in them yes could you imagine could you even fathom yo a full-blown nazi was behind the assassination

of john could you like like That we recruited and used. Dude. Dude, I fully understand why they're not releasing him if that's the case. Right. But again, I will say that until Skorzeny was – and Nazis, there was a Fourth Reich crew in the 70s, a woman by the name of Mae Brussel. But frankly, Mae Brussel was kind of crazy. Who's she she she was an early equivalent of a podcaster what not with video but with radio and like you know really

in-depth ongoing programs and subject matter u.s lady yes but like you know really out there and everybody interpreted these kinds of forthright things from her through that lens. Oh, so she was like a racist psycho. No, no, no, no. She was the opposite. She saw Nazis behind a lot of events. Oh, wait. She thought that there was like a forthright crew.

Oh, so – oh, she's blowing the whistle on it. Gotcha. Yes. Okay, that makes sense um it wasn't until recently where and the other thing is is that the the story that is told in coon dallas jibes in some ways with this document called the torbett document which this guy put out in the late 1960s and claimed to have all of this inside information on what happened in the kennedy assassination turned out to be like a lawyer in texas and nobody really ever followed up that I know of to try and figure out how he would know this, if he did know it at all, and it was generally largely dismissed because, again, the notion that time that there's Fourth Reich type of stuff and a branch of the FBI that to this day no one has ever confirmed existed what yeah well in the in the torbic document he

makes up i believe made up a whole branch of the f like a chamber called the division five that is supposedly like some ultra secret dirty tricks jimmy d jimmy d come in come in we got to talk about this one pal shit uh jimmy do you know you're referring to jim diagino no no no that's another jimmy our jimmy jim diorio here who was high level fbi okay yeah so we have to talk about but we've never been able to find confirmation and that isn't in coon dallas but other things like this almost like a corporation that's something out of a John Grissom novel called the World Commerce Corporation. That just sounds like an experience. They figure into being like a front for like every dirty deed that's ever existed. And again, they were in the Torbett document and made Brussels made a big deal out of them, but no one had really taken that seriously. situation because it involves names some way it speaks to uh maybe the credibility of the book

because it has obscure names that no one's ever heard of but at the same time some of us have been at this for some many people longer than i have 60 70 years and like names that no one ever connected to the crime or were peripheral figures suddenly become key players is that because somebody was trying to get names that nobody would really pay attention to to make their stuff look more credible maybe um it's a very tough thing and i know and i've talked to leslie a lot about the need and there's been efforts but it's caught up in legal stuff. Leslie? Yeah, Leslie Sharp, one of the co-authors. They need to verify the ink dating on that.

They have to go hardcore on the analysis of that diary before anyone's going to believe that it wasn't some kind of elaborate hoax from somebody who even by their own admission would have been the world champion at creating an elaborate hoax. So that's one of the three or four I think really ongoing big theories that really are promising to potentially get you to Dallas because that definitely gets you to Dallas. I mean there are entries from Dallas. So there's a – I want to make sure I interpret some of this, but also – And I should call it a date book more than a diary. That's really what it is. What's the difference? Well, it's much more – like the entries on this is like 9-26-63.

OS comes home. Say hi to Ilsa. Fact-based rather than feeling-based. But, like, super short. Like, it's not like – it's nothing like, man, I hate Otto Skorzeny. That scar is such a – you know. Right. Okay.

All right. So, yeah, like I said, if there were something – if there were a Nazi angle to this, that would blow the lid off the whole world let alone this country but let's take that detour for a minute okay because i mean it's been an elephant in the room during the last half hour probably this conversation with some other things that have come up do you first of all how much have you studied like post-war nazism well if you're talking about domestic no white supremacist stuff no no i'm talking about so like the operations that were like a paperclip i've studied them decently not nearly as much as i studied other things but i i have a pretty good idea about the kinds of operations that were going on even in europe do you think hitler died i do

i've watched that whole series. What series? So there's a series on History Channel with Bob Bear, who was a former CIA guy, and they got together. Oh, like Finding Hitler or whatever? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's kind of reality TV-ish, but some of it was real. I just don't think someone with Hitler's ego could any way possibly keep quiet for 50 years. I also don't think someone with Hitler's ego could kill himself. Maybe, but I... Wendy's most important deal of the day has

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you need to kill me because I can't kill myself. You know that the purported remains of Hitler. Yes, they're not him. I know that. That show didn't – That was funny. So for people that don't know, in like 08 or something, they – something happened where some people that were holding it in Russia allowed foreign people to come in and examine the remains. And they're like, oh shit, this is a is a 35 year old woman who's not eva brown and putin was just like oh you'll get that now don't worry and like everyone shut the

fuck up about it but i'll tell you what's more convincing is that martin borman may have survived well yeah because they tried to say like he got shot on the side of the road or was never seen again yeah yeah he there's there's some decent they did a decent job with him in that convincing me. I think that is a conspiracy I do believe because the FBI also completely believed it. They thought it was possible, yes. No, no. Like speaking to people there that were there after the fact in all fairness, if we're going to be honest here, like I've talked to Jim DiIorio about this. I've talked with some other guys about this. That was like a known thing. I mean you can see – you can Google it right now. I'll put the picture in the corner of the screen. There was a list of images they kept of what he would look like.

Oh, sure. And they all – none of them thought he was dead. Well, in the fighting Hitler, they present documents where they're going into Argentina. They're going into parts of Chile. They're going all over South America looking for him. So here's why I bring this up though because I'm – if you don't think that happened, that's fine because there were still a lot of other guys who did get out. I think the cult leader was actually somewhat important. I also don't think Hitler could have lived for that long. He was really like a very sickly man. Yeah. But there's another guy who I got connected to through some people who have been on this show who will not be coming on this show. Some of those guys, you know, they're just,

they're never going to come on camera. Sure. But he told me a story. I'm not going to go into the whole deep thing, but essentially he was being bothered by a friend, I guess, who was in a very high place at a very very very big company who had nothing more than just a weird hunch on somebody who they were this isn't exactly how it's happening but let's say hiring for a major position at this company and the guy i

talked to said to him what do you mean you have a hunch and they're like well we think he's a nazi and my guy started cracking up exactly like that like what and and he's like what do you mean they're like no no like we think he's a he's like a german leftover nazi and they're like well like, well, what's the guy's name? And it was some German name. And he was from South America. And he's like, oh, you're watching too much TV. This is crazy.

He's like, all right, why do you get this feeling about this guy? They're like, I don't know. It's just a gut feeling. He's like, well, is he a dick? And they're like. He just hates Jews. They're like, no. They're like, he wears very nice suits.

He's the nicest guy ever. And we just have a weird feeling. And so the guy I talked to said, listen, I'm not going to take your money. Relax. Do your fucking deal. It's not a big deal. They keep coming back though. Keep coming back over and over and over. Come on. You got to take a look at'll take your money i'll take a look at this this is waste of your time shit you not the guy was a nazi wow he was a card carrying south american holdover from the rat lines but i'm not going to do it right now but you know like the whole fucking every picture with every kind of salute yeah wow all the evidence of it and it is look it's not to say like oh if you're german living in South America, you're Nazi. That's not what I'm saying. But I'm saying there's some. Sure. There's a few.

Yeah. And so I say this because I don't – do I believe that there's like some fourth Reich run in the world or something? No. However, do I think there could be some weird shit happening with some people who have this very false idea of like some fallen empire that never even happened, that they just want to like rebirth out of some sick, sadistic, twisted, racist whatever? I'll say that is something. Was there an aspiration amongst former Nazis who escaped on the rat line to South America that they could do some forthright kind of stuff? I actually think finding Hitler did a very good job making the case on that like even finding places where they might have been trying to work on developing a nuclear weapon or a nuclear reactor i mean there was definitely all sorts of suspicious stuff in there

they just didn't convince me of like the core thesis but a lot of peripheral stuff i came out of there saying wow they're you know again was it something that they were in a serious place to do something about? I don't – that I don't know, but were there people who thought that one day they could try and reemerge, and was Skorzeny potentially one of them? Could have been. Yeah, right? Could have been. Right, and so – They had networks all over the place. It wasn't just South America. Right.

And there was multiple operations. Someone posted – I went down that rabbit hole actually two nights ago, and there was an operation. With the knowledge of the West German government assembled a bunch of other ex-Nazis to basically in the event that East Germany invaded West Germany, they would be like almost guerrilla warriors. And this is not even a denied plot. It's like a acknowledged idea. And then you could always get into this crazy stuff as it connected to Gladio. To who? Operation Gladio. This is one of the craziest – Do explain.

Man, people are going to wonder what do I do with my time. You write books and research. So if it were – it's the kind of thing where if I said it to you and you didn't go and look at the degree to which it's been verified, you would think I was an absolute whack job. How do you spell it? Gladio, G-L-A-D-I-O. But European governments have confirmed its existence. And what it was was what we call a stay-behind network in Europe, and it was people who were living like double lives as sort of sub-Rosa, regular people but who were part of a network that would work actively against the Soviet presence wherever in Europe. Many strong suspicions that they were part of sort of a false flag-ish days of lead type of situation that they had in Italy. I don't know if you're familiar with that, but there was a wave of terrorism.

And, you know, was it being blamed on left wing, right wing? Many people believe that that was a secret group of quietly paramilitary-trained people who were ready to do and step up to do any kind of anti-communist operation up to and including terrorism, false flag that was on the table. And it was being run behind the scenes very sort of sub-Rosa. And what's the connotation here? Why did you bring this up? operation that somebody like Skorzeny would have been key in maintaining that network, right? Because part of who you would go for would be, again, you need the most anti-communist people possible who are willing to take those risks.

It would be ex-Nazis living in Eastern Europe, for instance. And who has connections to those kinds of people? Skorzeny, possibly. I don't think that's a core argument from the people who make this Skorzeny to JFK plot. But when I – Ralph Gannis, who's the leading Skorzeny expert and who literally has his uniform in his closet. That is some creepy shit. In his closet.

In his closet. He showed it to me. Has all his papers. Sp some creepy shit in his closet in his closet he showed it to me has all his papers spent thousands to get his papers you know this guy yes can we get him in for a podcast uh well i think because i had he had a falling out with albarelli and those crew of people and because i was trying to straddle that fence, I haven't – I stayed at his place, but I haven't talked with him in two to three years. All right. Well, let's talk with him again. Yeah, he's on documentaries on Skorzeny. There's a couple that are on Netflix. Yeah, I want to talk to that guy. I think he thinks Skorzeny was QJ Wynn.

Was what? So there's a – it was actually a program, but there was individuals, possibly more than one, who were the go-to guy for the CIA if they wanted to recruit assassins. And that guy was codenamed QJ Wynn. We just found out another guy who was sort of peripherally connected to the same thing. His name was W.I. Rogue and we just found out who his identity was. What a name. Yeah, well, they're all the CIA's got like the two you know, letters followed by the like name name

like Amlash JM Wave right? That's how they sort of set up their numerics or alphanumerics or whatever. So he's he thinks he was Q.J. Wynn. Other people think somebody else was Q.J. Wynn. But he made a good case to me, and he gave me like a whole org chart. But Skorzeny would have been the person who would have handled – who would have been the go-to person for American – not just the American CIA, also the Pentagon, even maybe more so.

Okay, we need to set up like a false flag explosion. We need to assassinate somebody. Skorzeny would be the perfect person. He was the person who perfected it, and he trained. But get him on American soil potentially even? I think he came to him. I think sometimes he came to American soil.

His wife definitely did. His wife had an office in New York. What was her name again? Ilsa. I-S-L I-L-S-E Scorzani. And she like cheated on him, right? I don't know that, but I will tell you that she was far more involved in his shenanigans than anyone would think. I think she fucked an Israeli spy.

Entirely possible. I'll have to check that. Entirely possible. But she was far more involved in stuff than was let on. And he makes a very good case that the groups that she was a part of were fronts okay uh and that she was a part of the kennedy assassination she was sure because anything he was involved in she was involved in oh my god again it's wild and i don't like it wouldn't be like if i have like four theories that I bat around, and it would be maybe four until that diary gets there.

Just to reiterate, what are those four? So the four that I think – Just the headlines. We'll dig into the ones we haven't. Okay. Pentagon, broadly speaking, anti-Castro, heavily – much more localized organized crime in Dallas-based that could go to some of the people surrounding an organized crime like Bonanno. Okay. And the coup in Dallas scores Annie Lafitte plot. What if it's a mix? That's why this case is so crazy because it can be. It could very easily be because the Pentagon had a close relationship with Otto Skorzeny according to Gannis. Kennedy, Lemnitzer, who was the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and then gets reassigned because Kennedy and he do not get along very well at all, gets assigned to be the chief of NATO.

How convenient. If you wanted to have who's the person who's going to get Otto Skorzeny involved in something as big as the Kennedy assassination, it would be the Pentagon chief of NATO, would be one of those guys. Now, Lemnitzer doesn't really figure into the date book. Is it that Angleton, who knew Lemnitzer, like they're interacting with each other, right? So could there be a Pentagon plot on top of a Skorzeny plot? Sure. And then here's another one where it gets complicated. We know and we have documentation that Skorzeny was connected with some anti-Castro exiles who were involved. Oh, of course he was.

Right? Jesus Christ. And so if you want to say, well, what would a smart person do? They'd have a plan A and a backup plan for Dallas for something that big. Was one of these two things was French assassins the plan A, which is what his coup

in Dallas says. French assassins. Yes, so what the claim is is that Skorzeny reaches into his network of special operators out of Europe, and specifically a guy named Jean Soutra – I don't know how to pronounce the French. I think that's how you say his name – who's been in the Kennedy assassination lore for a while um but again if you could verify the ink on that and it tells you it's 1964 and 1963 when the date book was arranged no one knew who sweatshirt was related to the kennedy assassination

back then that's the kind of thing that people would be like holy crap yeah it's a timeline issue right so we got to find out that ink but that that's who Skorzeny went to. He went to these French OAS, the organization that was trying to kill De Gaulle, and basically got them to kill Kennedy. And so – but could there be a plan B connected to that? If he's smart, he'd have one, and who might he go to? Who might even be sort of a fallback patsy? Maybe the reason why there's so much good evidence for an anti-Castro writ large plot is that Scorsese had them as the backup plan for a very deliberate reason. Oh, Scorsese had it. Yeah, like he reached into that and said, okay, this doesn't work. You guys kill him. Meaning that under this line of theory, Scorsese is just calling all the shots here. He's empowered to do that.

Yes, he's using Lafitte as sort of like a gopher and that that's – and that his ultimate plan is to involve these really high-level assassins out of Europe that he's used to using for other assassination type events, and he turns them on John Kennedy, and that this isn't in the date book. Somebody could theoretically argue, well, he also has connection to the anti-Castro crowd, so maybe they were plan B. Or maybe the Pentagon had them as plan B, as the supra-involvement, because they definitely were involved with exiles in anti-Castro plots. Or maybe, and I tend to lean this way, it was just the broadly speaking anti-Castro crew who did it. And it's a combination of rogue CIA, mafia who were involved in the anti-Castro operations and anti-Castro exiles. If you want to read a book or two books, my co-author on my King assassination books, Larry Hancock, he wrote what I think are two of the best books if you're really into detail. One is called Someone Would Have Talked where he goes into a lot of depth that yes this actually did leak it just didn't leak to the public consciousness you know the argument

no if a plot this like this existed someone would have leaked it he blows that up how so so He shows multiple credible instances in the investigations of people who were speaking like everything short of we're going to kill Kennedy, including some people who actually flat out said it. He develops all of those individually. How does he know they said that? So it's in documents where – so for instance, there's an incident where a judge in Florida did a full investigation on a claim that there was a person at a store called the Parrot Jungle in Miami who said stuff to another person in there that was either overheard or was direct and it was very suspicious right it wasn't like we're gonna kill kennedy but in light of what happened to john kennedy you go back to that statement you're like wow this judge who's a completely independent person looked at all the witnesses to that claim looked at the background of the person who likely leaked it and said something and it all added up so for instance he the person who likely said it out loud and blabbed and remember what i told you about exiles right he worked at the fontainebleau hotel which is where

all of these folks in miami met to plot castro assassination plots. That was a mob hotel where exiles and CIA guys would meet. Another example is the best friend and a close colleague of said friend, of a guy named David Sanchez Morales.

Both had Morales, who had a reputation for if he got really drunk his tongue would loosen up he hated, so there's two guys Morales' close friend who he grew up with and this is verified his whole entire life with

and then another guy who was friends of the friend and they were together and Morales really didn't like the friend of the friend because that guy was a pro-Kennedy person like Robbie Kennedy, John Kennedy. And so he gets drunk and he starts going in on Kennedy to that guy. And he closes it by saying – I'm paraphrasing here, but we sure got that son of a bitch, didn't we? Now you go look into who David Morales is.

If you believe these two people, and why would they say this about their, you know, one of his closest friends? He was the, one of the key paramilitary trainers and special forces guys for the CIA, for the exile community, with a reputation of being

as ruthless as they come. Despised Kennedy, right? Because these are the guys who trained right trained the people who got killed at the bay of pigs no one hated kennedy more even though kennedy was screwed over at the bay of pigs they didn't know that at that time they blamed him for not wait why didn't they know that at that time because what happened we know now from files that have been released that the cia knew that the plan had been compromised knew it wouldn't work and still did and they did not tell

john kennedy that they sold him a oh this is gonna work fabulously because remember kennedy inherited kennedy inherited it from eisenhower and they wanted it they it was gonna fail and they just said you know what it'll fail but that'll be even better because then Kennedy will supply air power and we'll wipe out Castro right away. And then Kennedy gets caught off – and Kennedy got onto it when it failed, and he's like, you know what? Screw you. I'm not giving you air support for an operation that you set me up deliberately with lies to fail but the people on the ground the middlemen the paramilitary trainers and i'll give you another guy in a bit that's related to this somebody would have talked stuff um uh they just thought that john kennedy made a promise to give air power and didn't deliver.

Right? They didn't understand that John Kennedy had thought that – had in his own mind thought that the air power would be a last resort because the operation was going to be successful. He hadn't committed, fully committed to using it, and he realized that whatever he said, he was screwed over by the people in the state. That's why he fired people. That's when he starts saying, I'm going to turn the CIA into a thousand pieces. That's when he gets super suspicious of the CIA, because they literally set him up to fail with the thought that, you know, it doesn't matter. He'll just send air support. What is your, in all the research you've done and like we said you literally wrote a book on focusing on the cia and and what well i i've been contributors to books and i wrote a peer-reviewed

article i've done presentations many a time on the kennedy assess oh that's the book that you wrote with larry right where he led it and then you were on it as well? And if I were to place a bet on the book that's got it right to this point, it's that one. Although Larry, I think, is starting to come around to – and it fits perfectly within his theory. My argument that it was that Oswald may have been a Castro – a would-be Castro assassin, and that plot gets turned on JFK. But it's completely consistent what he says. He's for an exile-driven plot that involves CIA people and involves mafia folks. Okay. So my broad question is, though, how do you – what's your attitude on the CIA? And what is your – how do you look at the organization?

Like what's your opinion on it? That's really the best way to ask it. Current or then or both? So in shadow warfare, one of the biggest things we establish is up until the 70s, the level of oversight was just terrible. Until the church commission. Until the church committee. And there were still some weaknesses even after you get Iran-Contra. very mixed bag before the 1970s because you have a crew of people inside the cia who they get their they wet their feet on a couple of operations that are actually very successful at regime change

notably in guatemala and by the way those folks almost all show up in the kennedy assassination which we could talk about but they take that success and they think they can repeat it all over the place. And success I have to define broadly because we get genocides eventually in Guatemala because of our – in part because of our interference there. So the legacy of even successful covert warfare and covert operations is often very mixed in the long term. But it also frequently just flat-out fails in the short term. Like how do you – like at some point, if you're trying to fund a covert war, somebody is going to ask how a bunch of villagers have high-tech weapons right so this idea that you can supply stuff and then when you try and get around that yeah to get around that is when you start engaging like criminal organizations or letting those criminal organizations do whatever

they want while you're running your covert war that's how you get things like the drug into the inner cities from you know the freeway it's not that the CIA is deliberately trying to send drugs into the black community it's like well we have another priority right now

and it's trying to figure out how to fund a covert war without congress knowing. And, well, we got this thing going with the Iranians, but the drug thing is another potential source of income. And we don't even have to be directly involved. We just let them get their money dealing drugs. They're going to divert it. But of course those – once you get into those relationships, that's when you start getting into what people like Peter Dale Scott talk about in deep politics. Once you start engaging in those kinds of relationships, it's very difficult to unwind those relationships.

It's very difficult to disentangle yourself from the mess you created because to your point about a lot of this other stuff, you know how bad it looks. You could go in front of the American public and say, but we wanted to stop the – We were trying. We were trying to end the Guatemalan government from becoming communist. But they're like, you also brought in 50,000 kilos of cocaine and crack into the inner city and destroyed it. So it creates an environment where you're working with really sleazy people. And if they're smart, they know to exploit that both during,

but especially after the relationship. And so I think there's been a lot more, sort of, oversight brought to the CIA. And in fairness, the CIA – You think so today. I do think so. I don't think it's perfect by any means, and I still think there's a lot of residue of that deep political situation that I just described. And to be clear, I'm a realist on it. I understand there's going to be stuff that doesn't have oversight.

I know people out there don't like that. I'm not saying I like it as well, but it's a mean world. There's shit that happens. This is why spy organizations exist. But you get – so to give you an example of something where it's almost crazy, there's a guy who's been on a number of podcasts in the last few years. His name is Rick Prado. Oh, I'm very familiar with Rick. Yeah. Okay. And so then you may very well know about his backstory. Cuba came here.

Right. You know the interim? He was turned down from the CIA at first, and then they wanted him to come back in. And then he eventually – I mean he was partly running the counter-terrorist operations by the time he was the deputy head of alex station do you know that there is rock solid not even minor rock solid evidence that he was a uh basically uh it's hitman's the wrong word goon's the word, and I almost don't want to put it out there because Rick Prado might pay me a visit. He was working with a well-known – was one of his closest friends.

Well-known Cuban – Florida Cuban mafia guy as a henchman for years. I don't want to say that specific one is publicly discussed by him or no, and i don't want to he's denied anyone's mouth right but like yeah so this is what he did he was he was it is so he has a preferred method was the knife i mean the guy was so he is expressly denied that he had like this side job in between when he was you know in in between cia kind of stints working for his friend in fact it CIA kind of stints, working for his friend. In fact, it was one of the first jobs he had, too. But if you, I forgot, it's Evan, last name I forgot. You know the show Generation Kill?

Yes, yes, that was on HBO, right? Yes, really good show. The guy who wrote the basis for that series in Rolling Stone, he wrote a very brief book about Rick Prado. Okay. And it's all about, like this guy who's a very brief book about Rick Prado. Okay. And it's all about – like this guy who's a very good reporter, like a very credible reporter. Evan Wright.

Yeah, Evan Wright collected like police reports, like testimony, all kinds of stuff that makes it very obvious that the guy we had running, running our counter-terrorist operations yeah but hold on a minute hold on a minute he was and and this is this is in rick's defense he was ground branch he was ground branch for a good decade which would make all this make sense when he's counter-terrorism he's no longer ground branch i think at that point he probably wasn't doing a lot of like field work of like go murka guy. But when he was ground branch, they do some wild shit there. Where the CIA is trying to do stuff with drugs to help fund a covert operation. Not even to help fund, but they're looking the other way at it while it's helping to fund a covert operation indirectly, right? a Cuban Mafia guy from Miami completely independent of what he's doing

for the CIA. Yes, go read Evan Wright's stuff. And John Krakow, he's a CIA guy who tried to whistleblow. Oh, John Kiriakou. Yeah. He goes on podcasts and he's like like people need to

know so you do real like danny jones who's one of my best friends who runs the concrete podcast he's good friends with both of those guys prado prado and kiriakou so he should ask kiriakou about prado because it's kiriakou is how i found out about this, and then I went digging into Evan Wright's stuff. I like Kiriakou a lot, and I think – I could listen to that guy on a podcast all day. He's very interesting, and I think what happened to him is disgraceful. Yes. And I'm not saying it on this specific one. I can't comment on this. But I'm saying on a general standpoint, I think because of what the full government, not just the CIA, did to him, there's some times where I think a little human error could come into the situation where he's not in this case claiming to be anything other than somebody who was directly working with Prado. He's stunned and convinced though by what Evan Wright writes. And by the way, Prado's never directly – to the actual evidence in Wright's stuff. He's just like, oh, that's not true.

Like there are police reports. Like it's not – i would look into it okay and i am you have my interest and and i don't know the guy so and please tell me if i'm in danger from that guy because if there's one guy who scares me in the in the in the whole avenue of stuff and i will say he's a scary guy he did he i i'm one of the realists who think sometimes stuff had to be done i just think sometimes the cia goes too far in that and sometimes when stuff has to be done and this is larry and i's point um the actual lingering resentment from even stuff that works short term winds up working against American interests, and the most obvious example is Iran because a lot of these same people were involved in Iran. And although it was a little bit of a comedy of errors, we got what we wanted there in the 50s, but what we wanted there winds up leading to…

79. To 79. Yep. And I'm not a fan of the Iranian regime, but I can completely understand where they're coming from. On the initial… Yeah, sure. On the initial… Bad people seize bad moments.

Yeah, so… Yeah. So those, to our point, excuse me, those four theories would be the four that I find – the Dallas-based one is fascinating. Can we stay on the CIA for a minute? Yes, let's go ahead. On this just because this is a fascinating philosophical conversation. The thing that I've learned talking to, at this point, a bunch of these guys through having this career, which is interesting. You have to take what you hear with a grain of salt on certain things. And I'm not even saying that from a

bad angle. I'm saying that from a reality angle. Sure. They're not going to tell you certain things or not. There's stuff they can't be honest on even off camera. Sure. But the one trait, I mean, there's a bunch of traits I look at that I kind of pick up on. And I think a lot of people, if they listen to the podcast could probably find themselves finding the same things. But when you look at these intel guys, these high-level agency guys, three-letter agency guys in the government, they're very, very, very logically driven most of the time. And the way I describe it sometimes is – because I'm an emotional person first. I have to work to have pragmatism. That is not what comes naturally to me. Right. So I could never do that job. They would never recruit me to do that job. who if i stick them in a room right now and i have one red button okay and i show them two rooms across from them enclosed one room has 50 people the other room has 100 people and you can see them they're in tears they're crying and you say you have to press this red button it's gonna happen

but when you do it's going to kill one of the rooms, everyone in it. The other one will survive, but one won't, and you get to decide which room dies. The agencies go after people who, before you even famous runaway trolley experiment, thought experiment. Can you explain that? So the runaway trolley experiment is – I used it actually when I taught my intro to philosophy class to my high school students. It is a great way of teaching the two major schools of moral theory. And what it basically says is if you wake up on a runaway trolley and there is one person tied down, say, on one track and another – four people on another track, and your trolley is going to run over one of those sets of people. And right now it's set to go after the four. All right? Do you turn it to go after the one?

The people who say yes would fall under what we call consequentialist or utilitarian moral philosophy. Greatest good for the greatest number of people, it's pure math. People who have moral qualms about turning that dial, they fall under what we call, the fancy word is deontological moral reasoning. It's duty-based.

And it's heavily influenced by the philosopher Immanuel Kant. Yes. And they have serious qualms because you're actually making – taking the act of turning to kill the one. So it becomes much more morally ambiguous for those folks. modification to it with instead of um and i and you do it as a follow-up after many many kids will do the just simple greatest number kill the four and then you say okay well now let's say instead of being on the train waking up and it's runaway trolley and you have to pull the switch. Instead, you're on a bridge above the tracks, and there's a guy who's morbidly obese and like he's fishing, right? And you can now stop the train from killing the four people, but you have to push that guy over the bridge to stop the trolley right and it challenges your moral issues because when you do that version even though the math's the same many of the people who say oh it's easy it's

four versus one they get real bad moral qualms because it's a much more overt act personal right it's a much more overt act, and it's personal. So that's beautiful that you just explained. I didn't know that thing existed. That's perfect. I wasn't trying to set you up, but that worked out great. My takeaway is these guys are the three-letter agencies. Before you finish this sentence, that motherfucker got pushed.

Yes. No. And they don't – and again, this can go very bad to your point where the downside ends up outweighing the upside after the fact, and they didn't think it would. But they live in a world of the most dangerous absolutes, and that requires them to make some decisions that you and I would never have the capability to make. And I absolutely agree with you, and I think – And I'm not defending those, by the way. I absolutely agree with you in terms of the mindset that you see when you study things like covert warfare. Because in the minds of the folks, especially like somebody like Prados, because if I'm being fair to him, the dude came from Cuba. His family is connected to a guy and people like Che.

He's talked about exactly what I talk about. Like he gets crazy when he sees people with the Che shirts. Nobody knows. This guy literally just sat and executed personally. You have to be a pretty psycho guy to actually be the one who's pulling the trigger hundreds of how people operate. We've had so many examples where, on the whole, I tend to go with the fact that a lot of places where communism takes hold, you have huge atrocities. Yes, absolutely. But in our effort to prop up people who are just anti-communist, they're not pro-Western, they're not liberal Democrats. We've had plenty of examples where they're just as bad. That Castro is a bad dude. Che Guevara, bad dude in my opinion. But the head of Indonesia, what he did there, Sucarno, killed a lot of people, did just as much damage.

Absolutely. Right? You get no argument here, my friend. The difference to me between Stalin and Pol Pot, to me they're the worst possible examples of communism and they outstrip outdo in the moral degeneracy way virtually any even dictator anti-communist dictator i pull up but there's a lot of anti-communist dictators who are terrible oh fuck yeah and are on the par maybe not with stalin maybe not with pol pot but with castro right with um you're missing the shah of iran you know the biggest one of all who's the biggest one of all the the oppositional leader of anti-communism adolf hitler oh yeah yeah yeah yes i mean i i sometimes my brain melts i know i don't make a lot of

friends on politics because when it comes to looking at the extremes of both sides i see them right yes and that always pisses off someone who's a little more hardcore one way or the other but i until i'm blue in the face will continue to try to show my interpretation of things to anyone who will listen when it's relevant to come up because i don't like to lecture people but politics is a fucking circle why did stalin and hitler hate each other not necessarily because they were opposites which technically on paper they were they were so polar opposites that they were the fucking same and megalomaniacal narcissists like that hate other megalomaniacal narcissists like that hate other megalomaniacal narcissists who threaten their power it's that whole horseshoe theory

of politics that at the extremes it's sometimes very difficult to distinguish between yes the two what are supposed to be diametrically different ideologies why do you think the ideologies over history you watch it and you know i'm going to make up a round number here, so don't hold me to it. But like in 50- to 100-year patterns, they end up switching sides over history. Oftentimes, yes. Repeatedly, repeatedly, repeatedly, and what they do is they hold on to one little core tenet, and then they put a bunch of other shit around it that's supposed to be the opposite, and they drag everyone who's emotional about that core tenant over to that side they drag them over to that side around one other core tenant and now boom you have left wing and right wing and eventually it's just going to be right versus left but it's the same fucking shit to divide people sure no i i think it's the best

conspiratorial example of why there may be aliens here because they're just fucking with us just like divide and conquer these idiots just yell at each other you know well because you know the whole thing is when you're hardcore ideologue and dogmatic yeah you don't you don't there's no nuance none and yeah and you don't and you don't change with evidence in the practical real world or it takes a lot to get you to change for with evidence in the practical real world or it takes a lot to get you to change with evidence in the practical real world. I've liked listening to you today on a lot of different things where little things came up and I hear a lot of nuance in how you're talking. I listen for that from people because we're living in this world where they want to make us believe it's all black and white. Are there black and white are there black

and white things yes absolutely but is there a lot of fucking gray are most things gray yeah well let me give you one to connect it back to the kennedy assassination let's do it i was just ready to go back let's go so i especially nowadays have very strong objections to opacity, not releasing documents, keeping things classified. But if you ask me in 1963, here's what things look like on the surface. A guy just who has lived in the Soviet Union, who is very overtly pro-Castro, just shot the president of the United States. And by the way, this was unquestionably a motive behind a lot of the immediate cover-up, especially in the months and couple years after. The public – if this gets tied to a conspiracy involving those two countries, Castro and or Soviet Union.

We will be – and this is what Johnson said to Earl Warren. He said it to Richard Russell to get them to join the Warren Commission. of Russia and Cuba, you'll understand that we'll have 100 million people dead if this doesn't get put back into the bottle in the next 24th. I don't know I even – I'm even opposed to that and covering stuff up for that. I have a problem that you don't dig into whether or not that's true in any depth. I have a problem when it goes on forever and evidence should already be there that maybe the problem was is that the people who wanted to kill kennedy and i believe this to be the case and i it's part of larry hack i said it's a very

common theory they did too good of a job trying to frame cast and the Soviet Union to a point that they wound up forcing a cover-up. Peter Dale Scott, the professor who wrote books going back for years, calls it the two-phased conspiracy or cover-up. The first is to actually kill Kennedy and blame Castro. The second is independent of the first. It's actually to try and cover that one up because that one's going to lead to World War III. So you have

to cover up. But what bothers me is we find out that, as I said before, we just find out that there was an official investigation by the CIA into their own people in Miami. Where is that?

And if you did that in 1963 and 1964, what – it shows that even you are wondering whether or not this is all just a front to try and force an invasion of Cuba that you don't think you'd get from Kennedy otherwise. Because remember, those are the – Which then never happened. Right. And they're sitting there and thinking to themselves, this guy, if he stays in power, we just heard leaks from the United Nations that he's doing a backdoor with Cuba. He's the same guy who negotiated his way a deal with the Soviets to end the Cuban Missile Crisis. To these folks, that's all betrayal. And Kennedy to stay on this or go back to the theories of what happened in JFK. My personal theory is what happened was August and especially September of 1963, when they start getting wind in certain circles that Kennedy is making this backdoor effort to normalize relations with Cuba. Can you explain how he did that? So he reached out through a reporter to another reporter and to the ambassador at the United

Nations, Carlos Lechuga, to basically put out overtures along the lines of, let's let's get rid of the embargo maybe and maybe some travel stuff and then you stop you know maybe we if we open up trade we'll stop our you know terrorist operations against you you need to stop or cia covert whatever you want to call it. You stop your terrorist operations against us, and you disentangle you from your relationship with the Soviet Union, which is the number one goal anyway, right? We create a break with you and the Soviets. We become somebody that you could potentially use instead for economics because of trade in things like sugar and nickel and we normalize relations because right now we don't let anybody travel to you we won't trade with you we're trying behind the scenes to end your regime let's let's normalize stuff and we don't even know of how serious john kennedy was again i think he was looking to see these two tracks, same thing with Vietnam and other things, which one actually works.

I'll explore both. The net result of that is it makes both people – it makes you huge enemies on both sides because nobody knows you're playing both sides. Everyone interprets your actions through the worst possible lens. Castro sees you as potentially trying to kill him through a Trojan horse of a meeting. That's my father's theory. The anti-Castro folks think you're just betraying them for a third time now. In three strikes, you're out, right? And now things are serious. And what I think happened is they became desperate in especially September of 1963 to try they being the anti-Castro forces. And within that, I include people like Morales, people within the CIA paramilitary group, a guy named Carl Jenkins. We could potentially show a video if you want related to that story.

They turn the plot – well, first off, they try and kill Castro one more time. But now they're in desperation mode. What does desperation mode mean? Someone like Lee Harvey Oswald who is portraying himself to be some kind of mercenary and who does have a Marine background, right? But more than anything, he is the American who has a pro-Castro bona fides. He's the guy who could get close to fidel yes this is so so i am gonna get a trained mercenary into cuba somehow to try and kill castro and it happens to be this guy oswald who already in august of 1963 in my opinion has already showed that he's willing to play ball with the anti-Castro group by participating in what I believe was a staged fight with anti-Castro exiles that led to a radio

program where he got stomped in a debate with a guy named Carlos Branguer, who's an anti-Castro exile, embarrassing the group he supposedly was connected to, the Fair Play for Cuba committee, on local TV. And that showed these people that this guy maybe really has turned against communism. Maybe he really is somebody who's willing to work against Castro the way he's claiming to be. So let's take it up a notch. We're going to try and get him into Cuba and in some way participate in a desperate last-ditch attempt to kill Castro before Kennedy makes this what you believe to be a sincere move to normalize relations with Castro.

And that is why it looks so sloppy. That is why Lee Harvey Oswald. When he goes to Mexico City. Doesn't have. The documentation he needs to get the visa. And he's scrambling. Right. Because they don't even. They haven't even figured out.

He visits Sylvia Odeo's house. What does he say. That's not in that video? He doesn't say he's the kind of guy. They don't mention the other thing he said. He's the kind of guy who, if you get him into the Cuban underground, can kill Castro. So their first goal was to try and use exiles to get him into the Cuban underground to kill Castro. Sylvia Odeo, the person whose house he visited in the Odeo incident, her father tried to kill Castro. He was caught hiding out in the Cuban underground.

That's why they reached out to her. He goes to Mexico City. It's a haphazard plan and it fails. But those people who tried to plot that plan have decided, you know what? We have a fallback. He didn't get into Cuba to try and kill Castro. And I, by the decided they were going to turn that plot that they had scheduled for Castro onto Kennedy. this video it all adds up so uh to to give you some of the examples of that oswald wrote about that fight he had this so he gets arrested in new orleans handing out leaflets that are pro castro gets arrested gets into court and then eventually goes on tv to debate the people he was fighting with hold on one sec just pause it right there i gotta go to the bathroom real quick i don't He gets into court and then eventually goes on TV to debate the people he was fighting with. Hold on one sec.

Just pause it right there. I got to go to the bathroom real quick. I don't want to get too lost in the story. We'll be right back. Sure. All right. We're back. Thank you.

Continue. So it's August 1963, and Oswald has – he actually writes about the fight that he gets into before the fight ever happened, the person who observed it, Francis Martella, one of the detectives, he actually told authors and researchers that he felt there was a staged nature to the way that fight went down. court he's then for you know disturbing the peace he then gets into this radio program this radio debate with anti-castro exiles where he's pretty well embarrassed in part because they you know he's claiming that he's not a marxist leninist and these folks happen to have background information showing that he had defected to the soviet. And because Oswald is associated with the Fair Play for Cuba committee, this makes it look as if the Fair Play for Cuba committee, which is a pro – it's like a Castro-sympathetic group inside the United States. It makes it look like they're stooges for the Soviets, which isn't good in 1963 Cold War era politics. Afterwards, when he's seen at a bar, people described Alphonse as looking relieved. He started talking about he finally found his gold at the end of the rainbow, and you're saying to yourself, what's happening? Well, we know, and this has come into sharper

relief in the last several years thanks to the work of this gentleman named Jeff Morley, we know that the group he was interacting with had been under the – and fighting with supposedly, purportedly fighting with – had been under the direction and support of the CIA actually was very concerned about this group. It's called the Directario Revolutionario Estudiantil. I probably mispronounced it, the DRE. And that's because this is a young student group, and they're kind of out of control. You made a point about Kennedy trying to pull back on certain aspects of the covert operations. operations one thing he did not want to have happen was anti-castro groups flying off the handle and you know like sinking a russian ship or something and getting us into world war three there's a whole as you pointed out as well the whole nuclear thing right above you right now that's exactly it so the cia actually has somebody in place a guy named George Ioannidis, and I'm going to get into a little bit more depth on him. And they actually task him, the CIA in Virginia.

They're like, you need to, who I've mentioned earlier. That's because his name was hidden under a pseudonym for years and the files had been hidden. And when we dug it up, we found out only then that George Ioannidis had been the control officer for this group, this anti-Caster group,

the DRE, that fought with Oswald. He was in charge of trying to redirect them into less dangerous activities. But oddly, we have his reports on what he did with that group before he went to New Orleans. We have the reports of Joe Anides and what he did with the DRE after he went to New Orleans. But in the summer of 63, when he's in New Orleans and Oswald's in into New Orleans, we don't have any of his files, and the CIA is fighting even to this day tooth and nail to not have to release the files on George Ioannidis.

What do you think's in those files? I think George Ioannidis was directing Oswald eventually as part of one of these operations in an effort to try and redirect the DRE. You get what I'm saying? Oswald falls into the let's redirect them into radio debates and away from paramilitary operations. And of course they're not going to want to admit that they had a connection with Oswald before the assassination, but I think it goes further than that. Joe Anides, his reports would be to the anti-Castro. And as I said before, proves that he's actually willing to work against Castro, pro-Castro interests, at least temporarily, and is a Marine, and is claiming, and they have no way of knowing what we know now, that he was kind of a scrub when it came to things like shooting and stuff like that when he was in the military.

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So I think the other thing that they really don't want to come out on Joe Anides – and I'm speculating, but I'm entitled to because they're hiding the files from me, is they don't want you to read who's reading Joe Anides' stuff. Because my guess is the group that's looking into what Joe Anides is reporting is a group known as the Special Affairs Staff. The Special Affairs Staff was the component of the CIA who had been trying to kill Castro and basically undo his regime for years. How close did we come to killing Castro, do you think? I mean, I remember there were things like we had exploding cigars and stuff like that. There were ridiculous operations. I don't think we came very close, but one of the closest we're going to get to is one that I'm about to talk about, and it's directly related to Kennedy assassination. So Oswald's now on their radar, and he's actually being brought into a potential castro assassination i believe he would have been approached by a left-wing castro group people claiming as i said before

to be left yes they would have presented themselves as being part of a group that was known as castroism without castro called jure wheniles, if they ever got their dream of taking over Cuba, you had people who wanted to go full capitalist. You had people who you wanted to have like a Christian social democratic thing. And then you had people like Jure who would have been pretty darn socialist just without Castro. And these exile groups had a lot of rivalries. They hated Jure, many of them. So the five major groups, they were like the – almost like the black dog amongst the – the black sheep amongst the family. But they would be the exact kind of people who could go to Oswald and have a credible claim on somebody who's really secretly, quietly, still kind of leftist, right?

Or you would have good reason to believe might be. So they basically recruit him. We need you to get into – again, speculating. We need you to get into Cuba, right? The special affairs staff, because we have an operation that's going to try and remove Fidel Castro. And I believe in Oswald's mind is he's saying to himself, here's my chance to get into Cuba and become a hero to the revolution. Because I'm going to rat these guys out on national radio to the international radio. I'm going to be the one who proves that the United States maybe is going after Castro.

But we have a problem because this is all being developed last minute. And they need to get him in to Cuba fast because JFK is making these back channel overtures. So they get him a visa. And one of the places he stopped shortly after, and we have a video, is at the home of a woman named Sylvia Odio. I think I've mentioned her before. Yeah, you mentioned her 10 minutes ago. And the story again there is that Oswald shows up with two people who are using their Cuban war names. They're anti-Castro Cubans.

They say they're from Jure, which is the left-wing group. And they're asking for her financial support. And then they just randomly divert their attention and their discussion two days later in a phone call to the American who just stands silently there

who looks exactly like Lee Harvey Oswald and says, this guy's crazy. This guy thinks we're gutless. This guy says we should have killed Castro when we had a chance. Not Castro, Kennedy after the Bay of Pigs. And he's the kind of nutjob who if we got him into Cuba, he would try and take a shot and kill Castro. And here's the interesting thing.

I think I said it before, but Odio's father had been part of a Castro assassination attempt two years earlier that failed. Odio's father was at that time in prison on the Isle of Pines in Cuba for his involvement in that plot. Oh, he got – oh, shit. And Odio's father was caught at a farm hiding out, being hidden out by the Cuban underground. So if you were – Wait, he was caught when? Because you just said he was in prison on the Isle of Pines. Well, he was caught two years before, right after the plot happened. Oh, I see what you're saying. That's how they were – got it. So he's then put into prison for it.

And so if you're somebody who's desperate to get Oswald into Cuba in time to kill Castro, one thing you might want to do is see if somebody you know is part of a plot and you know is part of the underground over there can help you out. Now, he's in prison, but maybe his daughter and his three daughters know something. So you at least – you shoot – you try for your Hail Mary, right? You try the Philly Special. You go to – you go to Sylvia. You super suspicious. She even wrote her father afterwards. It's like, do you even know these guys? They're dropping your name. And we know later on her father was like writing from prison, like I believe he's trying to get into – with the help of probably agency assets down there, he's trying to get into Cuba. We know he's trying to get into – he's trying to get in there. They think, the people who are running him, at least at first, he's going to be one of our guys on the ground who's going to try and help us kill Castro here at the last minute. But he fails because they're winging this practically. He doesn't – Yeah, so he fails, but then you're saying it flips over to kill Kennedy.

Right. I'm trying to – Okay, so he – I'm just letting you – I'm thinking out loud right now. Okay, good. I'm trying to – I'm just letting you – I'm thinking out loud right now. I'm trying to figure out how they could make that type of a jump so quickly and have it make a parallel universe sense. So let me give you some specifics here that we have evidence for. So we know around this time the CIA was plotting an assassination of Castro at a place called Veradero Beach. You can see if this

sounds familiar. They were going to shoot him with a high-powered rifle from a distance while he was driving in a Jeep. Now, the person who was planning that, a guy named Carl Jenkins. Carl Jenkins with David Morales,

these were two of the big-time trainers of the Bay of Pigs people in military special operations. They come from the military, and they proceed from that to be two of the biggest paramilitary CIA special forces guys training the Cubans afterwards to try and take down the Cuban regime after the Bay of Pigs fails. Carl Jenkins was the person who plotted the assassination on Veradero Beach that never materialized. Here's the interesting thing on Carl Jenkins. Similar to his friend, we believe to be his colleague, David Morales. Carl Elmer Jenkins, Carl Jenkins, he becomes involved in Iran-Contra 20 years later. There's a lot of overlap, by the way, with the anti-Castro folks and Iran-Contra. Now, what he – in the process of doing that, and there's a video here with a guy named Gene Wheaton. In the 90s, when the Assassinations Record and Review Board was doing their investigation, somebody reached out to them as an anonymous initially, but then he revealed himself, source.

His name was Gene Wheaton. Gene Wheaton was like a contractor. He's somebody who almost like a consultant. He wasn't in the CIA or the military, but the CIA and the military drew to trust him to help with things like logistics for operations. And he had run into a lot of trouble in Iran during the Iranian revolution because he was, again, he was supplying, you know, the enemy, so to speak, the CIA with resources down there. So he had to come back to the United States. While he was in Iran, he had become associated with this guy, Carl Jenkins, who in the 60s was running the paramilitary operations for the CIA against Cuba. He became very close with Jenkins and Jenkins' wife. Jenkins' wife into the CIA. He basically became for a while her case officer. He retired. I on the – Wheaton is on the periphery of Iran-Contra. His planes that he works on are being used to transport weapons, and they become super close. closest friends. They're almost like sons. And who are they from? They're all these people who

he had developed as very young men during the Cuban operations, anti-Castro exiles who stayed with the CIA and became part of anti-communist operations in South America, in the Congo, in Vietnam and Laos. They're not just anti-Castro. They're anti-communist to their core because of Castro. So Carl Jenkins bring these folks over, and you'll see if we show the video. I have it behind you, 2130. Yes. So Carl Jenkins – let's play this. Listen to what – so we – so just a quick background to this video. Yeah, give it a background. Carl Jenkins did not want his name out from the Assassinations Records and Review Board because of this story that he's about to share.

He just wanted to help them find information. He wanted to stay out of it. But we have researchers who go through their files, and we found this name. I became a part of trying to help locate him. A couple of very good researchers in California found him. And they showed him what he had told this researcher for the Assassinations records and review board.

And so Jenkins – I'm sorry, Wheaton gives the background, what he knows about Jenkins, how he became friendly with son, a guy by the name of Rafael Chichi Quintero, an exile CIA connections – What a name. Right? Who was deeply involved in anti-communist operations for three decades, including Iran-Contra. They're all invited over to a party and a series of parties, like in get-togethers at Carl Jenkins' house where they drink. And this is what Wheaton overhears. We'll play it. All right. We'll put this in the corner of the screen for people. Senator Scott and I will try to work through the White House and the Senate to get you total immunity if you'll just tell the whole straight story.

So as he told it to you, what is the straight story. So as he told it to you what is the straight story? The straight story is that there was a CIA funded program to assassinate Castro and Carl was in charge of training the Cubans from Miami to assassinate Castro and it was paid for by the CIA and they would go from Texas down to Mexico and take old convertibles and things down in the hills and the rocky areas and stick watermelons up in the back seat and plunk them. They had a thing called a triangulation shooting team, and they were, ones that diverted the Castro funds and training for their own agenda to snuff Kennedy. A rogue element, in other words. Well, it was partially. It was a paid element, and they were CIA people. They were.

And you're one of the people who helped find this guy. Partly, yes. All right, let's keep going. Training to assassinate Castro. But if you train to assassinate one man, you can assassinate anybody with that same training. And that's what they were using, the paid training program to divert to get Castro because of his, well, the Cubans, because of imprisonment of those guys and because of the failed Bay of Pigs thing and JFK backing off at the last

moment on supporting the Bay of Pigs invasion. So they were still angry. Oh, they were furious and they still are to this day, the ones that are still alive. And there was another clique above them that was worried about Kennedy. I don't know how he would know that.

We'll cut it there. But if – hold on. Quick question. Yeah. If he's speculating on other things and he's not stating that he's speculating, is that calling the question the veracity or the verification of some of the things he's saying that could be truth? I think when he talks about the stuff that he has direct knowledge on, right? But how do we know he has direct knowledge? Well, he, amongst other things, he identified Carl Jenkins as somebody who was a paramilitary officer who trained Cubans before any of us knew.

Even the people like Larry Hancock who were deep, deep, deep in the woods of anti-Castro operations. Wrote whole books on it, right? We have two to three chapters in our book on shadow warfare on it, right? We didn't know who Carl Jenkins was until we found out what Carl Jenkins had told the Assassinations Record Review Board. Then we were able to dig in and confirm, including, remember, these were ultra-secret documents that we only came across in the last few, you know, 20 years. This Operation Pathfinder, which was an operation that Carl Jenkins ran to assassinate Castro in a moving vehicle on Veradero Beach. What is this guy saying? They turned the plot on Castro, on Kennedy.

He had no way of knowing what Operation Pathfinder was to make it up. There were no documents for him to tell the ARB about it, right? How could he have known about it if he didn't know it from someone like Carl Jenkins? And then there's another thing. Chi Chi Quintero. He gave a very. Entantalizing quote. I wonder if you can find it. Chi Chi Quintero quote.

Kennedy assassination. Chi Chi Quintero quote. It's a Q right. Quote Kennedy assassination. Okay. He basically said, you know, if people knew what I knew about what happened in Dallas, it would rock their world.

That's the guy he says is telling him the details of how Kennedy was killed. This guy's not an... I mean, I think this is a common last name. This guy's not related to Rafael Quintero, right? Rafael Carl or whatever his name was. Oh, there's more than one. Yeah, there's more than one. No, no.

That's a very common name in Mexico. No, right, but here's the funny thing. In that story, there's a gentleman if you ever – you've probably studied it about the death of that one DEA agent. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. You know the guy from the CIA? G.T. Camarena. Yeah, you know the guy who was cia marina yeah you know the guy who was in that uh that room uh torturing felix rodriguez allegedly yes allegedly i think it's a i follow i was convinced by the documentary i don't know if you were i need to think if i'm

allowed to say what i'm about to say out loud because i thought he was in there too and i still think he might have been but i'll just i'm gonna keep it i'm sorry i'm gonna keep it broad right now because i want to make sure i don't take away any confidentiality apparently it was a different cia guy still cia but it was not him in the room okay well let me tell you something about him felix rodriguez you know who helped train him what clique he was in the exiles you know specifically carl jenkins and this is a guy who was at the forefront of covert operations for years yes rodriguez right including iran contra yes he was one of the people who came to the house that that where this that where they discussed gene carl jen house? All the people he names are people who, if you knew nothing about what Gene Wheaton said and you went digging deep into anti-Castro operations and the most highly trained, dangerous people, they were all the people who Carl Jenkins trained and went to Carl Jenkins' house.

So you have Wheaton here. Remember Morales, who would have been a trainer with Carl Jenkins? We sure took care of that son of a bitch, didn't we? Now, let me throw another thing on top of this. One of the people who comes up in connection with Mexico City, the surveillance operations there, but also operations that were directed against the Fair Play for Cuba committee, the FBI and the CIA, they had a joint operation, domestic and foreign, to try and discredit that group. One of the people who's connected with that is a guy named David Atlee Phillips. Now, he used to be even more interesting than I'm about to explain. Phillips was deeply involved in anti-Castro operations, initially in propaganda, but also in operations.

He was one of the people who would have been deeply involved in the surveillance operations that all went crazy when Oswald supposedly visited there, right? Phillips was also someone who wrote books under pseudonyms. He was like a playwright before he was into the CIA. And he wrote a work of, and I put this in quotes, fiction, right? At the end of that book, and this is somebody who had been indirectly accused for years for reasons a long time that would take to explain of having something to do with the Kennedy assassination. He writes a book that's purportedly fiction that he never published. At the end of that book, in fictional character, he says, I was Lee Harvey Oswald's case officer. He was part of a plan that we had to kill Castro.

Somehow that plan got turned on John Kennedy. So even though I had nothing to do with the Kennedy assassination, I guess I have to bear some responsibility for what happened. The fictional character in the book says that. Yes, says that in the unreleased copy. I have the exact quote I think I sent you. Right? Before he died, he told a researcher that he thought that there may have been a rogue element that killed John Kennedy. Yeah, no shit, Sherlock. Right.

So, again, it's fiction, so what do you do with it? But it's consistent with everything I've been saying, right? Oswald, this plot gets turned, and these folks, this is why I believe it. I don't think Oswald was told that it was going to be a legitimate plot to kill John Kennedy. My best guess, and I think I've said it to you earlier today, is that Oswald was told we're going to send a warning to John Kennedy, fire a warning shot over his head, and make a statement. You're going to have to bring the rifle. Maybe he was the person who brought the fire shot. I doubt it. And this Mr. Spy was this stupid to do that? Well, I think in his mind, if he has thought that he's playing both sides, it wouldn't have been conceivable to him that this group, this left-wing

group especially, would have wanted to kill Kennedy, right? So I think you could probably convince him that we're just going to make a major public statement. And the reason I say that is that Oswald's actions immediately after he gets out of the schoolbook depository and even inside it, like here's a person who I do believe was part of a plot to shoot at a right-wing general named General Edwin Walker in April of 1963 before he goes to New Orleans. And his wife describes him for like a couple weeks of being an absolute anxiety-filled mess and he didn't even make contact he missed a supposedly general edward walker from point blank range and he's just deathly worried he's going to get caught and thrown in prison right but if you believe the warren commission oswald just shot the president of the united states two times and he's cool and calm drinking a coke when the police come into the school book depository and confront

them with a gun in his chest just cool and calm um he leaves and before he gets into a cab he offers the cab to another woman this is a president who supposedly just shot the president. He's not described as being really doing suspicious stuff and being someone who looks like he's trying to really get out of Dodge until he visits his rooming house. Now, what does he do at the rooming house? He's supposed to have gotten changed clothes and gotten a gun. Well, why didn't he bring the handgun to the depository in the first place if he thought he was going to be on the radio or heard from somebody, hey, you know, looks like Kennedy is going to die or just got pronounced dead. And now it starts to become clear to him, oh, shit. Do you think – is there evidence about Lee Harvey Oswald's mental status, mental health status?

Is it possible that he's someone who had borderline personality disorder, bouts of schizophrenia, things like this that could lead to someone having emotionally imbalanced responses to various impulses after something like this happens? I think it's possible, and some people I think have speculated in that regard. I have never seen anything concrete to suggest either a personality disorder or the kind of psychological mood disorder that would almost be like a split personality. Some people have speculated, by the way, and it gets to some of the stuff we'll talk about with RFK, that he was actually an MKUltra brainwashed assassin because his behavior is so radically different from if he was somebody who the police, he was calm to the point where the police felt as if he must have had some kind of training in how to handle interrogations. Well, you just – I bit my tongue way earlier in the conversation when you were talking about the – you were talking about him in Mexico and some of the – and how the FBI interrogated him and stuff like that. And I thought to myself, this is eerily similar to Tom O'Neill's reporting on Charles Manson in the 1960s, which is – the book Chaos is incredible, what he reported in there, worked on for 20-plus years. But it's eerily similar in that every time there's a dot on the map where Manson gets put on the record, literally, in his case with the parole office or something, he's always – he gets questioned and then he finds a way out of it. And it turns out that they had someone at the parole office who was handling him on behalf of the CIA.

And so when you were – I forget. There was something really specific in that story that you were outlining. I'm like this is the same parallel thing. I'm hearing it right now. And so I look at this and I go, hmm, maybe. Maybe there's also brainwashing going on. I'll give you a couple of elements just to throw you down that rabbit hole. Well, first of all, to Tom O'Neill, he was able to confirm something that had been speculated on in uh in a lot of literature on ruby that ruby was actually the person they all the people they chose to interrogate or help ruby diagnose whether or

not he had some kind of mental disorder they picked a guy jolly west jolyon west and he is and and and o'neill like put the final touch on the idea that west was unquestionably an mk ultra doctor right so let me take you to oswald and some suspicious things that even connect to my alma mater so again this is a kind of holes. I went to Tulane University in New Orleans. When Oswald was arrested in New Orleans, he had a phone number at Tulane at, which had been under construction, right? And those upper floors, no one used them except a handful of students figured out that you could make free long-distance phone calls from the phone system up there. What is Oswald doing with that information and that phone number in his pocket? It's the kind of place you'd go to make calls. He also identified a Tulane professor when he was arrested, who we can find no evidence that he had any connection to, except that that guy would have been the kind of person that you'd investigate if you were trying to report or inform on communist groups in – and leftist groups in New Orleans.

But it's a little bit – there was a judge – I'm going to put this all together in a second. There was a judge who claimed, a blind judge, that Lee Harvey – that he thought that Lee Harvey Oswald – he thought it was Oswald from The Voice, had come into his office to ask about LSD. Well, here's an interesting thing about my alma mater. Tulane University was one of the centers for experimentation and MKUltra and mind-altering drugs. A guy named Robert Heath was doing all sorts of crazy human experiments involving electrodes on people's brains that was actually alarmingly successful like he could make you like wildly by triggering the certain parts of the brain he could make you wildly over sexualized he can make you you know schizophrenic so some people have speculated that maybe oswald's connection to Tulane University was in fact that he was somehow

going there and some kind of MKUltra kind of thing connected to Robert Heath but I think it's a big reach I don't think he was MKUltra um Ruby would actually be a better candidate only because he is somebody who had all sorts of weird mental hang-ups but i don't think i think it's unlikely that he was either yeah it wasn't because ruby died of i think prostate cancer he died cancer yes right and there's the idea that like ruby who was a known mob associate was basically sent in there to clean up because he already had a diagnosis allegedly sure that's one of the thought processes right they took care of his family right well he was like a it's like a two lone assassin theory that's what people don't get it's not a one lone assassin theory to believe the official version you have to believe a two lone assassin theory and you have to believe that

lee harvey oswald who according to the three people that we know who commented on it, liked John Kennedy, right? That he shot John Kennedy for political reasons, but unlike every other political assassin we know who does it for that reason, did not acknowledge his own – denied his own involvement claimed innocence like if you're going to do something for a political reason why don't you do like charles guto who shot andrew garfield just admit that you that you did it that's the whole point right but he didn't right and it's a little bit of an odd political statement to make because as you made presciently point before all you're going to get is lyndon johnson who's much more likely to be hardcore against Cuba if that's why you're doing a political item. And so – but the strange thing about both men who seem to have no obvious motive, especially Oswald, to kill John Kennedy is that we do know that the people surrounding them, at least up until Dallasallas which has been my point i wish that could be solidified but in new orleans in mexico city multiple different groups and types of people hated kennedy yeah right so did jack ruby do it alone or was it like the mafia who hated John Kennedy that put him up to it or was it the gun running to anti-Castro forces? Was it anti-Castro forces who hated Kennedy? Oswald too. I think his connection to the mob is much looser. It's his uncle, possibly David Ferry and Guy Bannister. Wait, his uncle was like a bookmaker

for Marcello's mob but there's not a whole lot of evidence that Oswald had much interaction with his uncle other than his uncle was the person he had to turn to to bail him out of that August arrest for distributing leaflets

and disturbing the peace I don't think there's any doubt let's just start with the core three i don't think there's any doubt like let's just start with the core three i don't think there's any doubt that rogue government forces mob and cuban exiles all had some role in it i'm not saying they were all there on the ground that day that kind of wouldn't be feasible but i'm saying they had some role in the buildup. Where it gets weird is if the rogue government forces angle also included foreign conspiracies, and that could be something like, oh, somehow Castro had something to do with it. Well – Or it could also be what you laid out that's a bombshell earlier with like this course any angle right well to the castro thing why this case is so hard to untangle he had thoroughly infiltrated the anti-castro movement in the united states

the earliest like drive-by shootings weren't drive-by shootings in east los angeles they were drive-by shootings in miami in the 60s from people found out that somebody was working for fidel and just drove by and shot them in the head right yeah um so you could create a scenario where that in the square phase right you can have a scenario where where castro finds out about the plot against kennedy Exiles and actually says, you know what? I'm going to encourage it through my double agents inside the group. So it becomes difficult.

That would make sense. And then there's the Pentagon. Yeah, that's the one you laid out. Because they hated John Kennedy at the top of the Pentagon. It's the only institutional plot I'll believe. I think most people, and this is where I'm also careful with this, and sometimes I'm not. Sometimes I'll take the blame where I get careless with how I say it. But when you look at organizations, I could buy that like most people who worked at the CIA didn't like John Kennedy.

I could buy that most people who worked at the Pentagon didn't like John Kennedy. I could completely buy that it's a whole nother level to say they they wanted to kill him 100 right however it only takes a couple exactly right and that's where i think it comes in so where i say i'm careless sometimes is that i do try to say it's very easy for me to fall in the trap of saying like the cia this or the Pentagon did it. Yes, it could have been people who had the power due to their position there, which then does put blame on the organization to be clear. But like I always want to make the distinction that that doesn't mean that like there was like a fucking company meeting and they're like, hey, guys, we're going to whack Kennedy. Right. You know what I mean?

And with almost everything, I definitely sign on to that because I don't think it – I mean unless you believe – Angleton was pretty high up. But John McCone, I don't think the head of the CIA, I don't think he had anything to do with it. Maybe Richard Helms. I doubt it. Like there's – Yeah, it gets hard when you start getting to the exact people. We talked about – But William Harvey is like not middle, but he's upper middle. He's not to the top. He's somebody I could definitely see was involved.

That guy looks great. Put his picture in the corner. But it was mostly, I agree, rogue if you go with the anti-Castro, broadly speaking, mafia, CIA, exile. It's not an institutional plot. Where I sometimes draw some distinction with the Pentagon is at the very top. We're talking like maybe chairman of the Joint Chiefs, but if not, people on the Joint Chiefs. So at the very top, I would – some of those people I'm deeply suspicious of, like Curtis LeMay, Lemnitzer over in Europe. And the reason I am is these guys were freaking crazy, right? Crazy anti-communist. And the reason they hated John Kennedy is things like they thought we could have quote-unquote won a nuclear

war with the Soviets during the missile crisis. They think he was a complete softy on communism. And to the extent that John Kennedy was making measures that certainly made it look like, and it may have been sincere, that he was trying to de-escalate the Cold War. I think you said that before. In the two years up to his death, you have him making a deal with Khrushchev to take missiles out of Turkey to stop the missile crisis. You have him signing the nuclear test ban treaty, which both sides agreed, Soviets and Americans, to not do certain kinds of nuclear testing. You had him making an effort to actually try – and people joked about it when Trump proposed it with Putin. But kind of he was making a serious effort to try and do a joint mission or effort to space with the Soviets. And then you got what we know was happening behind the scenes, which is he appears to have potentially had an extramarital relationship with someone who was widely suspected of being

an East German spy. And the thing is, to the crazies, to the people who think we should have gone to nuclear war with the Soviets, and if we kill 280 million and they kill 60, we win? It's not hard to convince these folks that this guy is going to completely sell out the United States to the communists because he's done four things that in your mind, even when they were happening – I mean if you saw the movie 13 Days, I show it to my students. It's like there's some fictionalization here, but one thing that we now know is that the missile crisis. You do not into this, we're going to be here all night and we don't have a hell of a lot more time. But Curtis LeMay, his name comes up a lot in UFO stuff. He does because he was the chief of the Air Force and U.S. Special Command. I remember the story where he supposedly told Barry Goldwater when Goldwater was trying to investigate a UFO story

at one of the Air Force bases, he told, and you're talking about a presidential candidate and the leading Republican of his time, he told him to basically F off and you're not getting in there and I'm hanging up and don't ever ask me about this ever again. Yeah, he was around the whole Wright-Patterson. I'm trying to remember all the Wright-Patterson Air Force base. There were a couple other things. I don't want ask me about this ever again yeah he was around the whole right patterson i'm trying to exactly right patterson air force base there were a couple other things i don't

want to get it wrong right now but we can't yeah you know we can't that's another pot so we could do we could literally do a three-hour podcast series of probably like a hundred episodes on jfk alone oh yes but but before i get you out of here, I am going to cut you off because I want to make sure we cover one thing before you leave. Take me to the actual scene of the murder. Okay. You've laid out the four possible doors here of how – who could have been behind it and everything. But we started off either before camera or just on camera talking about the magic bullet theory and the actual scene, so I want to wrap it up going back to that. What happened that day as far as – what do you think went down? And that would be the official accounting of the nature of the shots and the wounds, which is three responsible for causing minor damage to a witness, James Tague, several yards down from where the vehicle was from the motorcade.

And what makes the Kennedy assassination from the forensic standpoint so perplexing in ways that all these other cases, they have elements of it, but it just takes it to another level, is there's decent reason to believe something that in any other context, in any other crime would be absurd, which is that there were efforts to tamper with the evidence to change the interpretation of what was done so on paper if you went just by the autopsy evidence and you said that's the best evidence there is a case for that scenario the official scenario that was just laid out it just leads to a whole bunch of absurdities. And then when you dig deeper, that very autopsy evidence becomes heavily into question. So I'll take, let me take you to the headshot, which is very famously, he's supposedly shot in the back of his head, and his head goes violently back into the left. We could go into the movement, but let's go into what the autopsy shows. for it. But a large number of the witnesses at that at Parkland Hospital describe a wound that at least extends

to the rear of the skull and the most notable person connected to that is a brain surgeon who was one of the leading brain surgeons at the time. And all of these Dallas doctors,

not only they're in a state where gunshot wounds – everyone has a gun in Texas. I had a friend in Texas who hates guns, and he had a gun, right? These folks deal with gunshot wounds at Parkland Hospital all the time, and almost all of them are also veterans of World War II. And what were they in World War II? They were medics. They were gunshot surgeons. So they had far more experience with gunshot wounds than the autopsy pathologists I'm going to discuss in a little bit. And they're describing wounds to the head that extend to the rear. And the neurosurgeon is describing parts of the brain that nobody who's an expert even modestly on the brain could make a mistake about.

Extensive damage to the cerebellum, which is like a totally different color than other parts of the brain. Consistent, again, with significant damage that at least extends to the rear of John Kennedy's skull. On paper, if I say that there's damage that extends extensively, extensive damage to the rear of somebody's skull, bullets enter small and exit big. So you would assume that it's a small entry to the front and a large entry to the back, which is consistent with the Zapruder film showing a shot going back into the front. And you say, okay, but these people were trying to save President Kennedy's life. The neurosurgeon maybe didn't have enough time, you know, a half an hour to observe the head.

Maybe he just made a horrific mistake. So what happened five hours later when, after a trip on Air Force One, John Kennedy's head with a little bit towards the front. Maybe you can make an argument that it extended a little bit towards the back. But there was also a small entry wound at the little bump towards the back of your neck called the external occipital protuberance. Shot, enter small, exit big. Kennedy's head is facing down, so it must have been a shot from the rear. So already you're starting to get some conflict. So these autopsy pathologists who were handpicked, two of the three never had dealt with anything like a gunshot to the head ever right how convenient

right you had people like cyril wecht who i know who eventually becomes the head of the american the president of the american forensic society right he was waiting on a on a road in you know in pittsburgh he was waiting at that airport because he's fully expected that he and some of his other friends would have been called in to do a top-notch autopsy on the president. And they weren't. And the autopsy that was done was embarrassingly bad. But it's worse because 10 years later, when they get access to the autopsy photos and x-rays, people like Cyril Wecht as well as a bunch of other pathologists, wound ballistics, and radiologists look at the autopsy photos and x-rays. And they say, yeah, we think that there's also evidence for a rear entry and the same basic front top of the headshot

but these three pathologists who had a freaking ruler were four inches off on where the entry point was it's actually they, at the cowlick area, four inches higher, changes the trajectory and makes it more consistent with what you see in the trajectory from the sixth floor in the Zapruder film at 313, right? So why do they say that? They see a metal, circular metal, piece of metal at the outer table of John Kennedy's skull near the cowlick and what we call radiating fracture lines, which are hallmarks of an entry wound. Metal on an X-ray is super obvious. This is 6. – and keep in mind Oswald fired six point five millimeter man like a carcano ammo. Right. A six point five millimeter piece of metal on the outer table of the skull would scream at you if you were a pathologist. None of the pathologists described seeing it on the x-rays in 1963.

Right. And none of and they were very hesitant to accept it even later and if you talk presented with evidence right and if you talk to wound ballistics people people who know how bullets work on bodies they will tell you it's absolutely impossible for a because we have the fragments of what is supposed to be the headshot bullet. This 6.5-millimeter bullet would have had to have come from the middle of the bullet, shaved off as a 6.5-millimeter fragment, and deposited itself on the outer table of John F. Kennedy's skull. I know Warren Commission people, pro-lone assassin, who say it's absurd. And what do they do they go back and they

say you know what now that we're looking at it we think we can actually move it back down to the eop two big problems with that there's still this piece of metal at the top of the skull that's supposedly impossible to come from a bullet these folks say it's an accident it's like maybe it's just some drop of liquid that got on the x-ray it just happens to be 6.5 millimeters in diameter right if it's an accident it just happens to appear where they're radiating fracture lines the other problem is that we have a trail of fragments in the skull x-rays, and they're consistent with the higher entry point, not the lower one. So even the people who say there's a lone assassin theory, they can't even decide where the entry in the skull was, even with x-rays and photos right next to them. So then we start getting testimony from people who were at Bethesda Naval Hospital who weren't the main pathologists, who weren't Navy people who were handpicked by the military, who had been sworn to secrecy for something like 15 years, and when Congress reinvestigated in 78 and, by the way, concluded that there was a likely conspiracy, these guys were finally allowed to speak. You know what they say? They're all saying that, no, actually, remember what the Parkland doctors said?

And they weren't referring to the Parkland doctors about a wound towards the rear of the skull. You can actually find a photo. It's crazy. People, doctors, JFK, wound location. And if you do it in Google Images, you may find a picture of all of these doctors. If you go to – keep going down. Okay, okay. No.

Put Parkland and Bethesda. Autopsy? Yes. Put Parkland and Bethesda. Doctors, I'm going to put Parkland. Autopsy. Okay. Well, that's going to give you just that.

Put Bethesda down, too. Bethesda? Yeah. And just that. Put Bethesda down, too. Bethesda? Yeah. And just that. And move down. Okay, right there. You see chapter 30? Move up a little.

Click on that. That? Yeah. These guys were all asked. These are doctors who at this time in their lives are some of the leading doctors in their field. And you notice they were asked, where did you see a large gaping wound? They include people from both Parkland and Bethesda, right? So from the autopsy and from Dallas.

And if you click on that and enlarge it. I'll put that in the corner of the screen. It's just downloading it every time I click it. All of them are putting their hand to show where the large wound was here. Right where that neurosurgeon put it. Let me see if I can find this picture. It's making me download a whole PDF. I'll put the picture.

I wonder if you go to related content and scroll down. I'll put the picture in the corner of the screen either way. Related content right here. Yeah. Try that. Yeah. Try that. Yeah. Come on. Let's open that up.

Where's the full picture? God damn it. They're making it too hard to get. I need to open this up and fucking... I don't know. Right. I see where they're pointing. It's in the corner of the screen so people can see.

They're all putting their – which is consistent with a shot from the front causing a shot in the back. So now you have – now you found out that – well, all those people who said the Parkland doctors, they were trying to save John Kennedy's life. It's a fair point. Maybe they just didn't get a good look at the head. The problem is now you have a dozen people in Bethesda five hours later who are putting the wound in the same location. So back to the scene then. So – First of all, does Oswald fire shots? I'm one of these 50-50 people, but but i will say this i'm very confident that shots were

fired from that rifle okay i just don't know if he brought the rifle or somebody else took the rifle in and maybe he wasn't up there correct and where else do you you have a second shooter then as well at least one other is very likely in the uh grassy knoll area and then i think that triangulation remember that person pointed that out when he was talking about carl jenkins shooting teams um the back wound to john kennedy almost definitely had to come from a lower elevation than the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository. The reason is – a few reasons. One, it's – there's something called a wound collar, and it's a bruising around the back wound because we have the photographs for John Kennedy is inconsistent with a high-angle shot going into the back. It's consistent with a flatter, even upward angle, and you're going to say upward angle.

Well, John Kennedy was on a downward-facing street, and he was facing downward. So if a flat bullet from a relatively flat angle hit Kennedy in the back, it would have the effect to a three-dimensional plane, a flat plane, a Euclidean plane of looking like it was slightly upward. There was some advanced photo enhancement stuff done for the House Select Committee in the late 70s. The photographic panel believed from what their observations were was that the bullet – to the extent that it was shallow and they could make some element of three-dimensionality people have said it, is it was fired from a building called the Daltex building, which the lower floors would have allowed for a flat angle into John Kennedy's back. It ricocheted off of one of Kennedy's vertebrae. There's damage on the vertebrae in x-rays and ricocheted slightly upwards and exited the throat and the limo. I do not believe that the frontal – the throat shot – many people do believe full through, nor did the bullet that hit Kennedy in the throat go full through. I could fire a BB gun into flesh simulant, and it will go five inches. Even a low-powered rifle, if it doesn't encounter a hard bone, is almost definitely going to go through flesh, the full way through.

Here you have two bullets that would have supposedly did that. And to me, you have to subject your own analysis to the same kind of scrutiny you subject the government's analysis to. Agreed. And I think the single bullet theory has a whole lot of absurdities. It might not be impossible but it's impossible i'll

state that for right it's not possible but it's just as absurd to think two bullets hit john kennedy from front and back and both barely penetrated the body yeah that's fair so it's like either there's some scenario some people think a bone that the back bullet penetrated shallow and the throat wound was caused by a fragment from the skull from the headshot. But if you follow the Zapruder film, it sure seems to me like John Kennedy is reacting certainly by frame 250 to a throat shot. So the head isn't shot for 80 other future frames. In terms of the head shot, I don't – I'm willing to entertain a lot of things. I'm willing to entertain a double shot.

I'm willing to entertain exotic ammunition like a frangible glycerin bullet because it's so difficult to make. But one thing I'm fairly confident in is somebody played around with those x-rays to make it more consistent with Oswald as the lone shooter. And the problem is that as with everything, as you astutely pointed out before, that doesn't have to be a conspirator in the crime that could be somebody who was pulled aside by a general or an admiral at bethesda naval hospital and told if you don't do this under my order so you're already being ordered but if you say anything and you don't do this we could be in world war three Do you want 100 million people to die? You need to make sure that this guy looks like the Sloan assassin. And there is indeed strange goings-ons with radiologists at Parkland Hospital where one guy was putting metal on a fake skull and taking x-rays and his explanation for it wasn't a very convincing one. So it's so hard to deconstruct this case because at least with almost every other true crime you investigate, maybe people get rid of evidence. That happens.

That happened in RFK like crazy. But people aren't fundamentally altering the evidence. You actually have to put effort in to alter an x-ray. So I don't know. I mean – but here's the thing, and this is a guy named Tink Thompson who was a world class detective for most of his life was once a philosophy professor

wrote one of the early and greatest books on the Kennedy assassination and he said I'm a detective I investigate tons of crimes and I get into the physical evidence and everything and every case I've ever investigated investigate tons of crimes, and I get into the physical evidence and everything, and

every case I've ever investigated, the closer you look, the more sense it makes. So the Kennedy assassination is the only case where the deeper you dive – now, he made it about the physical evidence. I would say it's about a lot of evidence in this case. The more confusing it gets. Instead of getting less confusing, it becomes fundamentally more confusing, and I think that's one of the fundamental observations about this case. If it wasn't a conspiracy, everything should align. I ask my kids this.

I do a little experiment with them about the headshot every year. At the end, they're totally – their minds are fried when I say, well, this place and this doctor said this. These doctors with the x-rays said this. These doctors with the x-rays said this. And the one thing I didn't tell you, the mortician who did John Kennedy's head and had to spend hours making it presentable to – for burial, he had to put wax into holes. Of course, yeah. And now he was, you know, another person who was, you know, you have to sign this and be silent, an NDA type thing for 15 years. When the Congress asked him in 1978, what do you remember? I had to put a little piece of wax right here in the temple and a large piece of wax right here in the back. Entry, exit. There it is.

But he's 15 years later and a mortician who's not a trained pathologist. Who do we place the way? That's my whole argument to the kids. And what I say to the kids is, you know, what do you choose? A, B, C, or D? And then at the end I say, how of you think if all four of these things should basically line up everyone raises their hand i'm like now you know why i've not written a book on the kennedy assassination because this is just one component one sub area and i can't make sense of

it and i can't make sense of 90 of the sub areas i don't know that there's any way i mean that's a perfect spot to end it because i don't know that there's really any way to make sense of it in one book even if you wrote a thousand page book there is so much here and i hate having to do this normally i just let you keep going and we do two podcasts but we actually i i do have to go somewhere no problem so i gotta get you out of here but stew i'm gonna put your links to your books in the description so what are the names of them again? So Killing King is the Martin Luther King assassination book. We break new ground there.

There is America's Secret Jihad is my solo book. That does include the King assassination and other crimes, but it talks – puts them in the context of domestic religious terrorism. And then you have the third book that you assisted on. Shadow Warfare. I'm a with on that. That is to deal with foreign covert warfare. And then if you wanted the earliest version, but I don't know

why you would, Awful Grace of God is the first King Assassination book, but I would strongly recommend Killing King. We'll put that one in there then. Stu, thank you so much, man. Yes so much yes thank you thank you for being here through a flat tire i really appreciate that no this is great all right everybody else you know what it is give it a thought get back to me peace