Julian Dorey Podcast - 😳 [VIDEO] - JFK: The Strange New Orleans Conspiracy to KILL HIM | Joseph Scott Morgan • 171

Episode Date: November 27, 2023

(***TIMESTAMPS in Description Below) ~ Joseph Scott Morgan is a Forensics Expert, Author, TV personality & JFK Investigator. His book, “Blood Beneath My Feet” is considered by many the greatest forensics memoir ever written. EPISODE LINKS: - SIGN UP FOR MyBookie: https://www.mybookie.ag/mobile-betting/  - Julian Dorey PODCAST MERCH: https://legacy.23point5.com/creator/Julian-Dorey-9826?tab=Featured  - Support our Show on PATREON: https://www.patreon.com/JulianDorey  - Join our DISCORD: https://discord.gg/BAtWAQmr  - SUBSCRIBE to Clips Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@UChs-BsSX71a_leuqUk7vtDg  JOSEPH LINKS: - BUY Joseph’s Book: https://amzn.to/3Ob3Upt  - Joseph’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/JoScottForensic  - Joseph’s Podcast: https://rb.gy/jje7qb  ***TIMESTAMPS*** 0:00 - Warren Commision’s JFK Theory (CIA & FBI Analysis) 9:22 - Gov knows who killed JFK? 17:00 - Kennedy’s Body Post-Assassination; Bobby K vs. JFK’s Autopsies 31:57 - DA Jim Garrison’s Prosecution of Alleged JFK Conspiracy Leaders; David Ferrie 38:06 - Dean Andrews & Clay Bertrand (aka Clay Shaw) 45:04 - Clay Shaw & CIA; Cyril Wecht’s & JFK Magic Bullet Theory 56:02 - Julian’s Hypothetical Example; Unanswered Questions on JFK Forever? 1:00:12 - Lee Harvey Oswald’s Interrogation & Inkless Pad 1:10:14 - Joseph’s Scientific Opinion of JFK Assassination 1:14:07 - Joseph’s upcoming show CREDITS: - Hosted, Produced & Intro Edited by Julian D. Dorey - Episode Edit by Alessi Allaman ~ Get $150 Off The Eight Sleep Pod Pro Mattress / Mattress Cover (USING CODE: “JULIANDOREY”): https://eight-sleep.ioym.net/trendifier Julian's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/julianddorey ~ Music via Artlist.io ~ Julian Dorey Podcast Episode 171 - Joseph Scott Morgan Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

with the three shots total though first one you think it's reasonable comes from the repository i agree i think that's perfectly reasonable yeah i think it's reasonable there is question there are questions around lee harvey oswald doing it though which i also hinted at earlier because in the stairwell there at the same exact time there were women who were going up when he's supposed to be descending and he was not he was then downstairs and obviously stew wexler did an amazing job when i had him in here going through oswald's whole checkered history i mean it was unreal like all the stuff he went through my friend danny jones as i mentioned did an amazing podcast with john newman where he discussed some of it too but you know moving on to the to the bullets and away from that, second one, probably grassy knoll.

I'm forgetting it right now. The first one goes through the neck. The second one goes wide. Goes wide. That's right. It strikes a curve. And you've got a bystander that's over there, and he's injured. Hit by the bullet?

Well, a fragment. A fragment kicks up and injures that individual. And then the third shot is the kill shot shot it's a head shot not that this wasn't a kill shot okay this is he could have lived from that though he could have he would have been in a greatly diminished state um but i don't know because we didn't examine the organs of the neck yeah i was gonna say what if if you were able to stop the bleeding and get him to emergency surgery, it's not like it's going through the heart or anything. No, but you're going through a very vascular area in there, in the neck. So I don't know what was clipped.

I don't know if they could have gotten to that to kind of stem the flow of things. What would be the possibility that he could survive that? I have no idea. We'll never know because we don't know enough about the extent of the trauma in that area since it was a limited dissection. But if the second one misses wide, now when they said wide right on the Warren Commission, they're trying to say it's from behind wide right, right? And it hits the curb. Wide left. If you're going from the rear. Yes. Okay. So they're saying wide left, but it would be wide right If you're going from the rear. Yes. Okay. So they're saying wide left,

but it would be wide right if you're looking from the grassy knoll. Yes. Yes, it would. So if you're, and then if you're firing, if an individual were to have fired from the grassy knoll, it would, that's the big question is what happened to that particular round? Did it just disintegrate or did it, you know, what was the status of that round? And again, you've got this, as I alluded to, you've got this little metal storm that's taking place inside the cranial vault. You know, you can see it, you know, demonstrated on the X-ray at that point in time. There were several assessments that were done from a ballistic study. I think probably one of the most curious ones, I think it was CBS, I can't remember what year, was that 66? Where, you know, they set up a moving target from a tower and they have this thing,

if you ever get a chance to check out this video, it's pretty interesting, where they've got this, it's almost on a rail, where they've got this target that is moving away from the book depository or what would have been approximating the height of the book depository. So if we if we're, you know, uh, you've got this, uh, these individuals that are firing down range at this target, that's moving away. And they were attempting to demonstrate if this was or was not possible. Um, and then you have, there was an FBI analysis. Um, there was a CIA analysis and then the CIA differed from what the FBI came up with. Initially, I think the CIA had, and we didn't find out this until years later, that they felt as though that there was a shot that came forward, came from

Ford of the vehicle toward the president. Whoa. So not the Grassy Knoll? No, it would have probably approximated the Grassy Knoll. The CIA? Yeah, one of their ballistic studies had, yeah. The CIA. The same? Yeah.

How many years later was that? I'm not really sure, to tell the truth. I don't know. That would certainly be something to take a look at. Because that is one of the great misconceptions when you're talking about the potential sinister nature of this case that even I still accidentally make the mistake of. We all do when we say it out loud and we hopefully we quickly just go cia killed him or whatever this was a lot of the people who are suspects here don't just involve you know like you're at that point former director alan dallas but of cia but also like the curtis lemay it's like guys in the

military who do work with the cia as a part of their job in the government. But like this wasn't – point being this wasn't – this was like a full potential conspiracy at its peak if that's indeed what it was. Yeah, and isn't that interesting that you begin to think about how many people would have had to have been involved at it. And so, so many levels, you know, you're, you're thinking, you know, how's it possible to get, to get each one of these agencies kind of coalescing around this one, this one thing, this one goal, um, moving forward. Um, I don't know, maybe it only takes a few, kind of like Caesar, where it only took a few senators, you know, in order to facilitate this. And

they were all in one accord, at least the ones that showed up with daggers. Who knows? And how many people knew about it before it was going to happen, referencing Caesar. It's hard. It's very, very difficult for more than one person to keep a secret. And that's one of the things that you're kind of left with in all of this. How can you have this, the totality of the steaming pile of crap that this investigation is? Is it just dumb luck that if you have a group of conspirators that they're also going to have the Keystone cops that are handling this thing at the same time? That you just happen to fall ass backwards into it. And it, you know, all of your wildest fantasies come true. Um, everything that you had planned, how, how does, how does that actually work out? Hey guys, I need your help with three quick things. And if you're watching me on Spotify video right now, you can see this timer to my right. It is going to be

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second if i pay a guy to go talk to another guy with the order that he's going to go talk to another guy who's going to go give a final order to another random dude somewhere to cross the street in new york city on 42nd street at this time on wednesday and when he does that he happens to do it at a perfect time that five minutes later somebody gets shot there's too many layers there for even the people to be questioning it you create a realm of uncertainty that people may not even be like wow was i involved with that or wasn't it like they may not even know right now there's some of it where there has to be people on the ground who are aware of what's going on when jack ruby comes out and shoots lee harvey oswald he knew what he was doing and there you know that's

that's a whole different level right there but you know i always think how you do right there with the secrets thing like how the hell do people do so once like once it gets to a certain number of people statistically how do all these people keep secrets and if you can keep it tight enough and you have enough blackmail and enough you know threats of whatever people will keep it i you know and this is a total let me just hedge on this and say this is a total bullshit he said she said that you know some people probably yell at me in the comments for bringing up but take this with an enormous grain of salt when i was when i was a little younger i knew someone who had a family member in an extremely high place extremely high place and you know he said very he didn't run around saying it to people, but it was said one time like that his family member knew exactly who killed Kennedy, when, where, how, and why.

Like down to who was involved, everything, and he can never say. And that could be total bullshit bullshit let's just call that what it is it could be someone blowing smoke up my ass in fact there's probably a 50 chance it is maybe more but if that is the case that wouldn't surprise me to see that there are just some things that like you don't talk about you just it's it's beyond it because as i always say even though this is 60 years ago, like people including me will complain. They're like, oh my god, they haven't released these goddamn reports. They keep pushing them down the – kicking the can down the road here.

At the same time, I then put myself in the shoes of these people as badly as I want to see those things and as badly as I want to know for sure exactly what happened i'm like if they release this and even some high-ranking people operating on their own meaning not in a government context but operating on their own if they held the title of director of blank or general of blank and it is on paper and proven even if it's 60 70 years later we live in a society, and I understand this, where groups of people will be like that can't exist anymore. It can't exist. As an example, my friend Jim DiIorio, special agent in the FBI, I've been on this podcast a bunch. He worked some insane investigations in his career even before the FBI when he was an Army Ranger. One of the cases he worked was TWA 800 in 1996 it was it was the plane that crashed blew up whatever in off the coast of Long

Island full civilian jet that was supposed to be going to Europe and his role on that case was he was responsible for interviewing every expert pilot in the world like that they could get their hands on and asking Name away this could have happened just one even if it's a 1 billion percent chance name a way that this plane could have had that Happen without something shooting it down every pilot said there is no way it was shot down And so when you talk to Jim about what happened he is He reflects the opinion of most of the people on the case here that worked it. He said it was in almost all likelihood an accident. We had a naval ship off the coast in Long Island. There was testing going on. It was an accident. They didn't mean

to hit it. The point being being if that ever came out though right it was a god's honest accident no one was trying to shoot that down there will be such a government outcry and litigation that now naval ships won't be able to test anything ever which is a part of like our military behaviors that we have to do so you understand what i'm saying there's such a backlash that you are stuck in a lose-lose where you either keep the secret and you're the asshole like government cover-up or you let the secret out and now shit burns. Yeah, I had a friend of mine many years ago saying – he said to me when we were actually discussing this, and I think he had read Garrison's book or one of his books. Garrison wrote several or a couple. We were – and this is even before – this was many years ago, I remember now.

I was still an undergraduate in college. And he – we were having a discussion about Kennedy, and he said, who cares? What does it matter? You know, we're, and this was in, this would have been in the eighties, you know, and his, his idea was, I want to keep going on down this road. Uh, my life is fine. How does this impact, you know, how does this impact me? And I think a lot of people ask those questions. I know that, that I have sometimes, you know, because it's really easy to get distracted with all of the

peripheral issues in the case as it applies to who was involved and who was not involved, who had knowledge, who may have gained knowledge after the fact and has decided to hold back on. And, you know, I think I could talk about this. I could study it. I could think about it and have discussions with people for years and years. But is it going to accomplish anything? And then I always return back to two things. First off, as a medical legal person, I look at it and I think, well, this is a real stain on the history of my profession relative to how the president's remains were treated, what happened to as it sounds, you know, I'm patriot. And he was my president, even if I was in vitro. He was our president. And I want to try to understand science and how that kind of marries up with what the reality is that we're faced with in the wake of this case.

Because it goes to – I think that it – I'm really getting out of my lane, but I think about it and I think about, you know, when I first started having this discussion with you, Julian, a little while back, you know, I said that we've become more cynical since the assassination. And I think that there is a general mistrust of officials. And a lot of it is because nothing, not everything has been released. They, they won't, they won't come out and give us all of the data so that we can make our own judgments. Uh, maybe they don't trust us to make our own judgments. Maybe they're fearful of us making our own judgments. I have no idea, but I know that in my little slice of the pie, my little world, um, this defies any kind of reasonable explanation as far as the science is concerned.

And it certainly runs contrary to anything that we would do in practice nowadays. It's just, it's, it's. It offends something. It's very, it's very offensive, intellectually insulting, I think, is the way it kind of breaks down for me. And I still return to Dr. Rose. I think about that man who was a fantastic that moment, Tom, Earl Rose was that one person in that horrible moment that said, this is wrong. This is wrong. And what happens?

Hand goes to the weapon, pushes him against the wall. Said, this is what it's going to be. And he even tells them that this is in violation of Texas state statute. Right. Tells them that, makes them aware of it. And he was well aware of the law. He knew that it was wrong. And when they walked out of those doors with the president's body at that moment, Tom,

you know, I often think about, you know, as not often, but as I've been, you know, kind of digging into all of this, you know, I think about Dr. Rose watching them kind of vanish with the president's body thinking, what the hell is going to happen? Well, let me tell you what happened. Because after the president's body left, Rose went and did the autopsy on Officer Tibbetts. Who Oswald allegedly killed. Yes. Rose went and did the autopsy on officer Tibbetts. And then. Who Oswald allegedly killed. Yes. Then he did the autopsy on Lee Harvey Oswald.

Then he did the autopsy on Jack Ruby. Oh, wait. Well, Ruby would have been years later, right? Like four years later, something like that. Yeah. He was still incarcerated there. He died of the big C. Right.

All right. Convenient. Let me bring this all around also. and this is a very interesting point i think some people may be interested in this i don't know let's jump forward to 1968 two people died in 68 rf RFK, MLK. Yeah. Where did RFK die? Where was he shot? California. He was given a speech after winning the primary, right?

At the Ambassador. That's L.A. County. Well, if you don't know who this person is, I recommend you look him up. He's, again, he's one of the people that I think I reflect back. I met him two times, and he was one of the most genuinely kind people I've met that was a forensic pathologist. You talked about this guy on the last podcast. Talk about this. Yeah.

Dr. Tom Noguchi. Yep. And he wrote a couple of books he wrote one called uh corner at large i think is the name of it and if you're just interested in kind of a a fun read it kind of gives you an idea about about uh the world that he inhabited i mean he did the autopsies from maryland row to uh albert decker sharon tate inger stevens janice joplin gia scala david jansen william holden and john belushi that's a michael bodden type s resident resume right there yeah he's really something uh william holden was always

interested uh interesting to me he was a decomp uh people don't realize that he was found just decomposing in his in his home wow but genuinely just a sweet man i mean he he truly was he's still kicking yeah he is but he was he was a sweet man when i met him he he didn't have to be kind to me but he was and the thing about how long is he like Like 100? 96? Man, good for him. Dr. Noguchi, he did the autopsy, as you can see there, on Senator Kennedy. When Senator Kennedy was assassinated. His wound was in the chest, right? Yeah. And he was, yeah, it was.

There were two. One was in the chest. That was the fatal wound. The other one was a flyer. I can't remember where, but it was, I think it was in a non-lethal region. Guess what, everybody? It is that time of year again. Football season is officially upon us and you know what that means. It is time to place those bets. As a better, you demand perfection and my bookie delivers. NFL, college football, and a brand new cash out system gives you the opportunity to bet and win all season long.

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on your first $50 deposit or more and get cash quick. This is what Tom Noguchi did. The Kennedy family didn't want an autopsy. Or if they were going to get one, it was only going to be like a partial one. For RFK? Yeah. They didn't learn their lesson? I don't know if they did, but guess who did? He did. Hmm. So what Dr. Noguchi did, he said, all right, boys, we're going to saddle up,

and we're going to do this autopsy out here. He does not have a southern Texas accent. No, he didn't. He didn't. I was going to say. I'm just kind of super. He's one of my Southern Texas accent. No, he didn't. He didn't. I'm just kind of, he's one of my heroes. So just give me a second. I was like, I was like biting my tongue. Not don't do it. A racist impression. No, no, no, no. I'm not doing a racist impression. No, I'm talking about me. Dr. Noguchi said, not only are we going to do an autopsy, but this is how we're going to do it. It's going to be the most thorough autopsy that has ever been done. He invited forensic pathologists from AFIP.

They came out to L.A. Guess who was in the crowd? Not Curtis, am I right I have no idea you were you were gonna hurt me if you said that no uh um Dr. Fink oh the wound ballistics guy that had shown up I'm not gonna say late to They just got started without him. And took the brain out before he got there. Yeah. He was invited. He was one of the people there, not to mention he had other staff pathologists, forensic pathologists, not tumor pathologists, that were present for the autopsy.

And when I say that they went from stem to stern. They did. They covered every single possibility because the one thing that I think that Tom Noguchi learned from this, he gained a lot of wisdom because even though there were not records that had been released, he was sensitive to the fact that he knew what a firestorm had been created, particularly within our community, you know, within the forensic community. Because, look, we might not have had the records, but people talk. And you go to meetings and you hear everything that happened. And, you know, it's a very small community. People knew Earl Rose.

I'm sure that Dr. Noguchi did. He had run across his path at some point in time, I'm sure. He was not going to allow this to happen. And granted, God bless RFK, he was not the president of the United States, but his brother had just been assassinated five years earlier. He was part of the Kennedy family, obviously, goes without saying. Very high profile. There was a strong possibility he could have been the next president of the United States. He was going to be. And Tom Noguchi had an awareness of that.

He knew how much damage had been done at that point in time. I'm not going to say that by virtue of what Tom Noguchi did relative to RFK, that all of a sudden everything is rosy, you know, moving forward in the medical legal community. But I think that it established kind of how things would operate moving forward in the event that anything else happened like this. Of course, Justice Scalia notwithstanding being pronounced over the phone. But, you know, you think about this. He kind of – he set the tenor and tempo of what we could expect in the future. You never say what is – you never say that it'll never happen.

My grandma used to tell me that because you don't want to tempt fate or tempt God. And I'm not saying that other horrible things couldn't happen in the future where things are screwed up this bad. But he set a standard by taking those simple steps in advance. And he had to learn, unfortunately, through, through the assassination of a president. That's, yeah. I mean, that's like, I don't care how long you've done something or like, it's like coming to work every day when you're dealing with life and death, in this case, the death side of it, of something that high profile. I mean, to me, it feels like NBA finals game seven,

you know, one minute left and you're down two points like that kind of pressure. Yeah. And one more thing here about the situation he was in. Okay. Um, him being Dr. Noguchi, uh, people, I think that people think that it's, it's disrespectful to say, you know, he's the corner to the stars. They've said that before that that's, that's not something Dr. Noguchi would say. Um, but he was set up for that moment in time, I think, because he had done autopsies on Marilyn Monroe and all these other people, these principals that were involved in this, you know, within that sphere out there in Hollywood. And those are just a few of the people that he actually did autopsies on. You can imagine even the peripheral people that are out there during that period of time that are associated with that industry. He's, he was out of all the pathologists, um, in America at that point in time, he, there was nobody better equipped to be, um, used to the white hot spotlight of, of the intensity of the media, I think. And he just didn't, it didn't matter to him. Um, one of the intensity of the media, I think. And it just didn't matter to him.

One of the things, and I actually read this in his book, and I applied this when I was a death investigator. Dr. Noguchi actually had a principle. I may have mentioned this previously, but it bears repeating. What's better than a well-marbled ribeye sizzling on the barbecue? A well-marbled ribeye sizzling on the barbecue that was carefully selected by an Instacart shopper and delivered to your door. A well-marbled ribeye you ordered without even leaving the kiddie pool. Whatever groceries your summer calls for, Instacart has you covered.

Download the Instacart app and enjoy $0 delivery fees on your first three orders. Service fees, exclusions, and terms apply. Instacart. Groceries that over-deliver. He said that as humans, it's very easy for us when we go onto a scene with the presence of a decedent in the room to focus on the decedent. And this is a very Eastern way of thinking about things, but he said that when he would walk into a room, say for instance, in a room with there is a deceased body and think about what he walked into the Tate LaBianca homicides. He was present at Sharon Tate's homicide. It's the Manson murders for people out there who don't know that, but pretty common knowledge. Dr. Noguchi said that he would look up. He would look up at the ceiling before he ever focused on the body because he didn't want to be distracted by the body. He wanted to look at all of the peripheral first and take all of that in before he finally allowed his gaze to fall upon the body. And he's not distracted, you know, because it's real easy, I think, to get tunnel vision.

I think there's a lesson that can be taken away relative to President Kennedy's assassination in that little nugget there too. You know, obviously you have this destroyed have the, this destroyed body of, of, of, of a president there before you. And in those circumstances, we spent, I think, um, we, they spent so much time focused on trying to save him in the beginning, um, and trying to remove him from that environment for whatever reason to get him back to allowing, uh, decisions to be made outside of the medical legal realm about what kind of dissection was going to be done, uh, as to what was the body is merely the hub. We have all these other things that we have to consider that kind of extend out from that hub. I think for me, this is kind of the zen of death investigation. You know, when you look at this and you try to view everything very broadly

and then you focus in on that big piece of evidence. And so many times, so many things are lost. Back then, I think that they lost sight of things. They lost sight of everything else that was going on around them. And unfortunately, we've suffered ever since then. Well, we look at recent history with global wars that are happening right you look at ukraine you look at israel over the past couple years and the term that comes to mind especially in the social media era and the ai era with manipulation and stuff like that

is the fog of war which has always been a thing to be very clear but it is so it is so like on hyper speed at this point because everyone including you know some asshole like me sitting in new jersey has access to seeing whatever information is put up online everyone listening right now they have access to see information that's put up online, deciding what's real, what's not, what's propaganda, what's not, what's manipulated, what's not, what's AI, what's not. It's so hard. And then no matter where you end up falling on the issue or feel about it, I mean, everyone hates war, but like, you know, you're constantly just like, I don't know what's going on. When you look at something like the Kennedy assassination, no internet back then or whatever but you had mass media at this point alive for the earlier parts

like as far as this was its earliest parts of history early parts of tv stuff like that and everyone was getting their news from outlets and their information's flying around but we also know less because there's not the internet with sluths and taking videos and pictures on the ground. Nonetheless, the fog of war on this is nuts. And the fog of war really occurs over give or take what, like a three-day period? Because Oswald was murdered, it was two days after. Yes. So you have-

It was Friday and then Saturday, Sunday. While while while the president's funeral was going on, I think, or the not the funeral, but the procession, the procession was going on. Yeah. Yeah. Something was they were back in D.C. doing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Ceremonies for him or whatever but it's crazy how fast this all happened but how much and how many people and how many players and how many unknowns and how many trump cards were in the middle of it and it it just i don't know it reminds me of now and and like when i went to i remember watching jfk the movie for the first time which you know oliver Oliver Stone gets a lot of criticism but also does do a lot of research. It doesn't mean everything he says is right and stuff like that.

But JFK is – when you look at all the different things Oliver Stone has really dug his teeth into over the years, at least from what I've looked at at the place where he's built the strongest evidence of certain things is on that jfk case because he legit has been on that for yes since the 70s right so yeah you know that story and i don't know how many people listening have seen jfk because it's an older movie now it's a very famous movie but that covered and i don't remember if we hinted at this on the podcast or before when we were talking but that covered the the garrison case yes which happened in new orleans where you are from and it was the only trial that occurred in relation to jfk's assassination the only prosecution yeah yeah and it was was Only? Yeah. And it was, was it like 1968? Yes, it was 68, 69, yeah.

So the end result of the case was that the jury only deliberated for like an hour and came back against the prime defendant, Clay Shaw, who we'll get to,

as being not guilty. And so Garrison took a lot of shit for it. Garrison was the DA of New Orleans and he broke down the Warren report and realized it was all bullshit and just really sunk his teeth into this thing. before the assassination or stuff like that you can't argue with the fact that all the little pieces related to the government and figures who happen to be floating around new orleans in the two years in particular leading up to this paint a picture of people who i don't care what you say some of them had to know or have an idea what was going down. And you were telling me before we got on air that you – was it like someone close to you that worked – was around this case?

Yeah. One of my relatives is – was working for a prosecutor's office in New Orleans back in the 60s. You can do the math there. And actually knew David Ferry. Can you explain who he was? Yeah, David Ferry is, if you've seen the – Joe Pesci. Yeah, Joe Pesci.

If you've ever seen the JFK movie, he's portrayed by Joe Pesci and was, you know, according to my relative, accurately described and bizarre little fellow. And and please, Joe, if you're listening to this, I'm not talking about you. I'm talking about David Ferry. He did a masterful job, I think, in that role, who was at least hinted at as being part of some of the covert ops, what they referred to as the training of Cuban guerrillas. And, you know, he had, I think he had alopecia, if I'm not mistaken. And he had lost his hair. And he used to make homemade wigs. And he would paint on his eyebrows and all these sorts of things. He was a former pilot with Delta Airlines. And he had some questionable moral decisions he had made in his life.

But I think probably one of the most striking things about him was the fact that he was a leader in a civil air patrol group in New Orleans. And there's a famous picture of him building a campfire, and Lee Harvey Oswald was there as a teenager. And that particularly, you know, my son was in Civil Air Patrol. And, you know, it's a very small, not a lot of people know about Civil Air Patrol. It's a great organization. But when I see that image and I think about the connectivity between Ferry and New Orleans and Oswald, it seems odd to say the very least.

It's certainly intellectually intriguing. And what he may or may not have known, what kind of interactions he had with Lee Harvey Oswald during that period of time. And he was involved on certain levels with a variety of different types of petty crimes as well. But he was on the radar from a governmental standpoint. Then you think about Dean Andrews, who was, and I recommend anybody that has, he's the character that John Candy portrayed in that movie. My relative who worked in a prosecutor's office down there,

knew Mr. Andrews as well. John Candy was so fucking spot on with that impression. Yeah, and as a matter of fact, if you watch the two versions of this, I have the, we definitely can't play the Oliver Stone one, but people can look that up.

And real fast, I'll play this real quick I have the actual guy if you want to see this real fast I'll stick this in our ears so we can hear it Manny Garcia Gonzalez and Ricardo Davis did you know Mr. Gonzalez no did you know Mr. Davis no No. Where did you get those names? Out the air. In other words, these names were fictional as far as you were concerned? Well, I'm trying to see if this cat's kosher, you know. So what? So he's kosher. I don't know. So you just picked two names out of the air.

Right. Now, why did you do that? Well, I don't know what he's up to he's picking me like chicken shucking me like corn storing me like an oyster i mean he ain't put nothing down but air so i'll give him two names see which way he's going in other words you made up two names to see what he was going to do with them right what did he do with them well i don't know hasn't done anything yet that is so if you watch the John Candy doing him, it's spot on. Like, scary spot on.

Yeah, it really is. And this is a quintessential New Orleans character. He's got what's referred to as the Yat accent, which some people say. Poetry. Yeah, poetry. True to garbage cans. It's akin to a Brooklyn accent. People find that odd, particularly in the Deep South. But it's one of those little interesting little asides about New Orleans. And there's all kinds, and he had allegedly been contacted by a person named Clay Bertrand to represent Lee Harvey Oswald for any number of reasons. And as it turned out, Clay Bertrand was alleged to actually be Clay Shaw, who was the founder of the trademark in New Orleans.

And you might – people – I don't know if they know this or not, but it's only mentioned very briefly in Stone's movie. But what really brings Shaw into focus here is the fact that he founded what's referred to as the International Trademark, which for anybody that's ever been to the quarter in New Orleans, it sits right on the river. It's this really old looking building. The structure itself is referred to as the International Trademark Building. And it's kind of got a circular, it it looks like a big spaceship it's very 60s looking it's got a revolving restaurant at the top but anyway what took place in that building

was that shaw had interest in latin and south america latin america um import export all that sort of thing and at the time new orleans was a major and still is a major port of entry for a lot of stuff coming up from latin america and course, we know the connection with some of the things that have been put forth about Lee Harvey Oswald and representing the Cuban communist support. He was actually arrested in New Orleans. That's documented. So Shaw had connected allegedly with Lee Harvey Oswald. And this was one of the things that Garrison was putting forth, that there was actually, he knew that Oswald was in New Orleans, was domiciled in New Orleans, had been moving around town. He also kind of came in contact with a very unsavory character who's a retired FBI agent down there named Guy Bannister, who shared office space with – or in the same building where Lee Harvey Oswald had been housed for a period of time.

He had all kinds of baggage in his background, too, government-wise. Yeah, he did. And so Garrison – That was Ed Asin in that movie, right? Yeah, it was. A very brutal portrayal. He really beat Jack Lemmon up pretty badly in that. So Garrison's whole purpose there was to try to complete this circle and to try to give an idea that there was some type of conspiracy that was hatched in New Orleans.

He didn't convince the jury at that time. As you said, when it actually came to trial, they deliberated for a very short period of time. Of course, Clay Shaw went free. But this is the one thing that Garrison did do. And by the way, I don't know that his career was necessarily ruined after that, but he did become a judge finally. He was not as highly regarded. I think a lot of people saw what he had done as being wasteful. But looking back retrospectively, he – Yeah. I mean, it was – you know, you talk about being brave in the face of adversity.

Because none of the stuff, and he was trying to compel the National Archives to release a lot of this information that still to this day they're trying to release. I can't believe that guy lived. Yeah, that's kind of a, and I think, you know, he was very high profile. And for that period of time, he really was. He stayed in the news constantly. Maybe that's the one thing that saved him. I have no idea if we are to think about, you know, other people having impacts on individuals' lives in a negative way. Yeah. It just, it's amazing that that's the only case that ever got brought.

I mean, if you can't put two and two together here and see that clearly there were other forces at play from the inside, I kind of can't help you. You know, I struggled for a long time when I was more casual on the case. I kind of struggled with that a little bit. But once I got bitten by the bug and was really going deep into it i'm like you know we always talk about like those gaps and not trying to fill them with what you want to be true right i'm very careful with that this is this is so obvious this one it's so obvious that it just blows my mind yeah and we can we can sit around and opine about a lot of

things, but at the end of the day, it's, you know, bringing it back to a death investigation. What can you prove? Um, and, um, one of the problems is, is that when you have an absence of you, you, you sense that there is something there, but when you have an absence of evidence in order to physical evidence, certainly in my case, what I'm really interested in, and you have an absence of these things, like the president's brain, you begin to look at this and think, well, I know that there's something here, but how am I actually going to, if I were to have to prove this in court, how could I go about it? And it's not really me. It's like, you know, the examinations that a medical legal agency would do, how are you going to take that data and pass it on to a

prosecutor that has the guts to prosecute something like this and then say that a homicide has been committed and this is who committed the homicide? Can directly tie them to this and i think that even if we did have have all of the physical evidence still who are you going to point the finger at relative to all the peripherals that are involved in it yeah because it's hiding behind organizations. So it's like, are you picking and choose if you pick out one or two people here and there? Which, I mean, he really did that with a guy, Clay Shaw, who was on really the periphery of stuff more than anything. It's not like he put Curtis LeMay in the box there. Yeah, and Clay Shaw, it's not like he was headquartered in Langley or something like that.

He wasn't, no. He's working in New Orleans, living a life down there as the president of the trademark, doing business in Latin America. People in business, they come in contact with a lot of unsavory people many times. We all come in contact with a lot of unsavory people. But when you're doing business abroad like that, you don't know who you're going to cross paths with. The trick is, and to try to understand it, and I don't know that anybody fully has, was he actually working for some U.S. government agency? And I don't know if they have evidence that would hold up at this point in time or not. So I think this can go – this one's a little complex because at the end of JFK and the credits, Oliver Stone says years later the CIA admitted that he had worked for them or whatever. And it was – I don't remember the exact wording but it was very

broad and if you look i think it might even be on his wikipedia okay later disclosures in 1979 richard helms former director of the cia testified under oath that shaw had been a part-time contact of the domestic contact service dcs of the cia where shaw volunteered information from his travels abroad mostly to latin america like shaw 150 000 americans businessmen and journalists etc had provided the journalist thing is a little scary had provided such information to the dcs by the mid-1970s on a non-clandestine basis that's in quotes and that quote such acts of cooperation should not be confused with an actual agency relationship, unquote. Now, when Oliver Stone doesn't give all that context and just said he worked for the CIA, that's not really fair. However,

if you read between the lines here, this feels like government speak like, oh, yeah, no, don't worry. You know, we asked him a question one time. Everyone does it. Don't worry about, you know, he's among 150,000. He's among 150,000. Don't worry. By the way, there's some journalists in there. Don't worry about that. It's all good. Yeah, and that is quite terrifying.

It feels a little off, but here's the other side to that. You could argue, minus everyone likes to paint all these government organizations as evil these days, and I don't agree with that. I think there's a lot of nuance on these things. But, you know, you think about the times this was happening when he was doing this in 1950s, 1960s. You know, there's the Cold War going on. He's an international businessman. He might be a patriot. And government says, hey, can you let us know about a couple things? That's my that's my duty. I'll let you know. Absolutely. I would I could see that. And here's another little aside that kind of in a roundabout way comes back to this. I'm going back to Cyril Weck now, and I saw he gave a- He's the pathologist from Pittsburgh we

talked about. Yeah. He actually gave a talk at the museum, the book depository. And I think, if I'm not mistaken, I listened to his lecture. He had stated that, first off, he was the only contrarian that they had ever allowed in. You know, because when you go to that museum, it's all about Lee Harvey Oswald killed Kennedy. This museum brought to you by Central Intelligence Agency. Dr. Wecht has always been very brave in what he has stated about his concerns relative to the investigation. He's actually the one that famously came up, famously, uh, uh, came up with this magical path of the magic bullet and, uh, demonstrates it and actually still in talks that

he gives, he does this demonstration. He'll bring people up out of the crowd and it's kind of, it's, it's interesting to do. He actually did a demonstration year before last at crime con, where he brought, brought, uh, um brought some of the audience members up on stage and demonstrated. And it's sad. It's a little bit comical to see him do it, but it is very sad because you're talking about the president and, of course, Governor Conley being shot. But here's something that Dr. Weck made a point of. He said that when he was able to, he actually purchased a copy. He said it cost him $75 at the time, which would have been a sizable amount of money,

and acquired, I think, one of the first runs of the Warren Commission report. And this thing is voluminous. I mean, it's multiple volumes. It goes on and on and on. And so he was so excited. And he said, when he's, you know, Dr. Wett gets very animated when he talks. He's fascinating to listen, give a lecture. He said, I was so very excited. You know, he says, I got my volumes here, and I want to go directly to look at all of the pathology notes. And he says, I go to the last volume, and I open it up, and there's no indices. There's no index in any of this.

So if you're going to seek something out, now this is, you were talking about the days before the internet. If you wanted to read this thing, there is no index in there so that you can't, you cannot go back and readily access something. Like if you wanted to see any kind of supplemental report relative to a report that the FBI had filed, or if you wanted to see, for instance, a copy of the autopsy report and what it actually said. You couldn't just merely, you know, like we do with an index, you know, you look it up and you go directly to it. It wasn't there. So you had to hunt and peck for this thing. He said that this one lady who's a fellow researcher of his, it's passed on now,

she went in and actually created her own index by hand of this thing. And he said it was this Herculean task for her to have done this. Real quick, to all my Discord people out there, the Julian Dory Discord is officially live. I put the link down in the description below. So go hit that, join the community, and say what's up. There's all kinds of features in there, and I look forward to hearing from you guys. Let's get it popping. But, you know, he was talking about looking in the rearview mirror, you know, relative to kind of the battles he's fought about this, how there have been a lot of people now that were there in the beginning when all of this happened. And this has gone on so long now, Julian, that a lot of this, you know, Dr. Weck is getting close to the last man standing. Most people are dead.

Yeah, that actually were there, you know. You think about Earl Rose. I think Earl Rose died back in, you know, the mid-2011, maybe 2011. That will probably be proved wrong on that. But he's gone, you know, and we're losing, to your earlier statement, we're losing the connection that we might have had with all of those people, those threads that extend back in time to those people that were there on the ground, that were there, that saw and heard all of those things and experienced them at that moment in time. And still to this day, we don't have any definitive answers, certainly nothing that we can kind of hang our hat on. And I guess all of us at the end of the day just want somebody to take responsibility or tell us who was responsible. Yeah, we need that as people,

you know what I mean? We yearn for it. I that we do um and i i don't know i i think that uh for whatever reason stuff is still closed off it's inaccessible even though um you know even there was supposed to be a big document dump in 2017 still stuff was held back at that point they just held stuff again i think but it's not it's like we were talking about a few minutes back if it's 10 years later and you're a good person right you're a good person and you go work at, I don't know, in Curtis LeMay's old office, right? And for the sake of argument, not only do you think and know you're a good person. Let's say this person really is a good person.

And you find out the truth. And you're a patriot and you care a lot about what can be accomplished, not just by you but by some other good people in this office. And that person is gone. gone whoever it was they're gone you're gonna lose lose now but you're incentivized to be like they fucked up but we won't people can't know about this you are and see we need it we need it in society we have to that's why when, as you well know, when a murder happens, the detectives have to close the case. They got to get something on it. Throw someone in there. Throw it on camera. Get it in a courtroom. Throw them in prison. Everyone go about their life. Right. Got to be closed end. Yeah, people don't like unanswered questions.

And unfortunately, in my line of work, and I'm just thinking about day-to-day cases, I can not necessarily provide all of the answers that everybody might want or that I might want as just, you know, as just trying to be a decent human being. I don't know. I think that the trouble with JFK for me is that it was such a bold action in front of witnesses and, again, in broad daylight, the fact that an individual would do, or individuals would do this on such a grand scale and have no shame about it whatsoever, and all these years later, we have absolutely no accountability for it.

Nobody. And, you know, I think about, I think recently uh you know i i think about i think recently um you know uh within the last month uh they are they found and arrested uh another uh guard from a nazi concentration camp yeah and this guy's like 98 years old and and still you know that that's persistence and that goes all the way back obviously to the 40s you know when this's persistence. And that goes all the way back, obviously, to the 40s, you know, when this has occurred. Because their government doesn't exist anymore. That's the thing. That's the difference.

Duly noted. Their government's gone. Yeah. If it's people who did a bad thing, even if they're operating outside of the government, but they held the title where they went to in their office every day said the usnd on the door on the door yeah it's tough i mean it's a great example it's i there's a guy eli rosenbaum i think he's in new york who's like the head of i think it's weisenthal center yeah who was an unbelievable nazi hunter until the day he died yes he was eli is still hunting down who's left you know and there's not many but he's like if there's any justice to bring to these people let's do it and

there's something there's a closed circle about that and we're not gonna gonna get that in this Like I said a while ago, unfortunately, I get it. Like it's not to – I certainly don't want to be a bootlicker about it. I want to see those goddamn documents. But, man, are you stuck between a shit and a fart with that one. Yeah, yeah. I guess you kind of are, Julian. Yeah. It's a good visual for it.

It was. Actually, that jumped to mind. so thank you so much for that can i there's something that was hanging out there from way earlier that we got off of yeah and when i was interrupting you throughout the timeline with so many damn questions but you had mentioned it and left it open-ended where you were talking about the gun residue on test on Lee Harvey Oswald's face and body. And I think what you said was they concluded it was on there or whatever. And then you were like, I mean, that's what they conclude. Like, so what do you mean by that? Is there some sort of cover up with that test? And why do you think that? No, I don't necessarily think again, if we believe that Lee Harvey Oswald fired a weapon, the close proximity to the bolt and the trigger housing, yeah, you'd have deposition on his skin, on his face, on his

hands, that sort of thing. And now we don't use paraffin any longer. That's been gone for a number of years now. There's a chemical test that's done and taken place. And they're not always accurate, by the way. I think people think that you'll always get a positive every time you use somebody. They've actually done tests where people have worked in munitions factories, and they've done GSR tests on their hands, and they don't come back with anything.

But, yeah, in this particular case, they did. And for that time, paraffin is what they went with. So they had those elements that were contained in that capture in that moment in time. I don't know. I guess they couldn't manufacture that or say that he did have it when he didn't. I mean, who's going to argue, you know, whether or not that test is accurate and true? And again, that's something that taken in total here. They took the time to take that test on him and to put that through their processing and came back with an answer very quickly. But, you know, I see these images of this one investigator, you know, walking almost triumphantly around in his bare hands, mind you,

holding this weapon above his head and demonstrating it for everyone to see. And then you see this other image of an investigator walking down the sidewalk, carrying the weapon, holding it by the sling as he's walking down the street. It's not packaged or preserved in any way. So you begin to think about the provenance of whatever evidence has been collected. You know, how do you go back and validate that? And how is it handled at that particular time? And certainly people understood, I think, just from a fingerprint standpoint, that, you know, fingerprints, palm prints, all that sort of thing are very, very fragile. But yet there they are demonstrating it for the whole world.

Yeah. And you have written down on here, by the way, I'm looking at your timeline that at seven. So we had talked earlier, I know, about Lee Harvey Oswald's first interrogation occurring 100 or 80 minutes after he was arrested at 3 p.m. Right. Central time. And then at 620, he goes into a second interrogation. So, I mean, I think they'd have him in there for hours with an interrogation. Yeah, you would.

And at some point in time, I think that there was a lineup that they conducted as well. You know, and again, they're covering their bases with that. He and my understanding as well is that he had not been afforded counsel, which is which is interesting, too, that, you know, and he's and here they are. You know, how often, you know, now today you think about him being paraded before the cameras. And, of course, he famously said, I'm just a patsy as he's, you know, at headquarters there. But, you know, he's making comments. He's actually given an interview on camera. Crazy. Yeah. And it was quite amazing.

I'm really surprised that they would allow him to say anything or that he would be given access to media at that point in time. You know, they were punching air up in D.C. in the Pentagon, like, who the fuck let these Texas detectives take this guy out there? Get Ruby in there! Yeah, no kidding. And so, you know, it's an all- pass to the, again, you know, even Ruby going back to him, um, he, he had access to, uh, the police that other people would not normally have, you know, a lot of the cops that occupied that space, they come by the carousel club periodically, you know, the strip joint that, that he, that he operated, uh, he he was he was well known to them and uh that's

the rationalization for you know why would this guy have been allowed into that secured area in the basement down there um and have access to ruby as our oswald as he's being led out by the two detectives and he steps forward forward and he caps him right there in front of God and everybody. And he's, you know, there's no guarantee that that shot could have been fatal, but he got so close to him. He was able to put that almost in his belly and fire that weapon. And Lee Harvey Oswald was dead pretty soon thereafter and with him died any kind of further you know further uh examination of him certainly and i'm talking about from a perspective of of uh interview or an interrogation or anything like that it's nuts and he had a ton of he had a

ton of mafia ties too yes ruby i mean he obviously he wasn't like in the family he wasn't italian but like he was a long time mob associate we know some of the history there with the kennedy family and the mafia as well it's just so it's so messy like and obvious at the same time but then it's also i don't know but you also have written down here at 750 lh lee harvey oswald third interrogation so these are that's what i keep saying these are like fast interrogations here like i i would think they'd have this guy in there for four days but you have immediately following lineup so that's when they did the lineup and it says harvey Oswald's finger and palm prints are taken on an inkless pad. Is that supposed to be an ink pad?

No? Yeah. Yeah, it is. It's a pad that you can just actually do almost like a plastic print where you depress your hand into it. It's going to leave the –, I always tell my students this, these are not fingerprints right here that we have on our hands. These are friction ridges. We leave behind a fingerprint. And so when you depress into, uh, the surface, it leaves, it leaves behind an impression, which is captured almost like a mold, if you will. Um, and so you've

got that captured for that moment in time. So when they would have done the fingerprint, you know, thumb, all fingers, and then there would be an expanded one where you would do the actual palm print where you're going to catch all of the minutia that's contained on the surface of the palm as well. And so what they're looking for there is to see if they could find anything on the weapon that would give you an idea that he had contacted it, where his hand would have perhaps been supporting the weapon. Was he actuating the bolt, you know, when he grabbed it, pulled it back? Because these are, particularly the bolt, any of the metal areas on this weapon are, they're not completely non-porous.

Like if you think about a mirror, for instance, when you're thinking about latent prints, those things, latent means unseen. So that's the reason they dust. On metal surfaces, it's essentially non-porous, so smooth, non-porous surfaces. Those are some of the best locations to get latent prints off of. Wood's a bit more difficult, even though you can do it. So that's what they're looking for, points of contact relative to this. I wonder as well, because there's a famous image of, actually a moving picture image of one of the techs actually dusting the weapon. This is amazing that you actually have them doing this at that moment, Tom. And he's dusting this weapon where he's doing the dance with a fingerprint brush like this, where you're spinning it like a ballerina and kind of applying the dust there to see if it's going to contact with the fatty

lipids that are left behind that, you know, that raise this print, this latent print that's unseen. And, you know, and I think back, the Carcano has an indwelling magazine, which means in order to load it, you can either load it round by round. And if you're loading it round by round, guess what you have to do? You're taking, you're pressing it down with your thumb. So you're taking one round and putting it on top of another like that and pressing it down. Were those rounds, were they ever printed?

I'd like to know that. You know, was there any evidence that there was a latent print found on any of those? The ejected cartridges, was there any evidence of his contact there? You know, today in the world that we're in right now, we'd be looking for things like DNA, you know, any kind of touch DNA that might be left behind. But, of course, that doesn't exist today or didn't exist back then. I mean, I've kind of not beat around the bush with some of the ideas I have about this assassination today. And there probably being some sort of at least people related to within the government conspiracy. But what are in all the years you've looked at this case,

what do you think happened? Sorry about that. You're good. I think that it's very hard to, if you're talking about Oswald as they have framed him over the years as this you know the lone nut assassin I don't know that he would have been bright enough to have pulled this off. And particularly given his past, just the acquisition of the job at the school book depository, I think that that's a real interesting position for him to have been in.

Being there at that particular time, having employment there, having access to what became known as the sniper's nest. Why would he have this much anger and hatred toward this man our president that he would want to run the risk he's essentially a new father he's got a wife at home who doesn't speak very good English he's brought her over from Russia we know that he's defected previously we know that he was involved at some level in not necessarily signals intelligence, but he was involved as a radar man there. You know, he was he spent time tracking tracking U-2 flights. Yeah.

There's questions around him with Gary Powers. Yeah. And Gary Powers went down, went down, was shot down. I think he had flown out of Turkey when that was the base that he flew out of. I mean, he was going to be snapping shots. And I don't know who else may have been involved that had a military background that would understand that technology at that time, such as it was. But how did he have the resources in order to facilitate all of this without being connected to other people? Yeah, I believe in my heart of

hearts, I think that there had to be at least one other person, certainly on the ground that day, that was wielding a weapon. Yeah, Yeah. And beyond that, I can't really, and that's truly for me from just kind of the physical science, truly for me, that's demonstrated in the headshot. When I begin to think about the dynamics of that event, the position of it, the idea that you've got the president who is in that position at that particular time, he takes one shot that winds up, that's really actually kind of, if you look at it, an individual would have been firing center mass on his body, looking down the long axis of his back. And if the shot rose a little bit, it's okay, because anything above that level is lethal.

You've got another shot flying wild, and then there's going to – you've got the idea that you've got this one person maybe that's over to the right and forward of the motorcade that can pull the trigger, and that'll be the coup de grace that will take him out, that will guarantee that he is not going to leave Dallas alive. So yeah, I think that there's more than one person. Fair enough. Well, this, Joseph, this was awesome, as I knew it would be. Your breakdown of the case from a scientific perspective was pretty amazing. So I really appreciate you doing this. And for people out

there who want to go follow your work, I would highly recommend they check you out on Twitter. You're on there all the time. You're on every TV station known to man every week. So whenever there's a case and somebody died, look for this guy. He's on TV. Was there anything else we can help you with to promote right now? Do you guys validate parking? We got you, bro. We got you covered right now. No, really. Yeah, just check me out. I will tell you this one thing. I think this episode is probably going to drop relative to this. We're going to drop it on the 21st, I think.

Coming up not too long after, I think probably the weekend of Thanksgiving, I'm starring in a docuseries. It's going to be a two-parter or a three-parter on Oxygen Network. It's a passion project of mine that I've been involved with on the podcast for a number of years. If people are familiar with the podcast, it's called the Piketon Massacre. Oh, this is a different one? Well, I've been involved with this case for a number of years covering it on the podcast, but the television series.

It's a television docuseries. It's called The Pyketon Murders. Probably one of the most bizarre. Eight people killed in one night at four separate locations by another family. And it's absolutely heartbreaking. But it was such a joy to be a part of and kind of tell the story from a forensics perspective. Very excited about that. So that's going to be premiering on Oxygen and Peacock and all that sort of stuff. Very cool. The weekend of Thanksgiving, following Thanksgiving. Remind me

right when it comes out and I'll put a direct link in the description and update the show, because it'll be a few days later. And yeah, follow me on Body Bags. Yeah, your podcast, Body Bags. Yeah, two new episodes every week. Very excited about that. I have a lot of fun doing that. And it is a purely forensics podcast where I just try to concentrate on the science and not get into a lot of the peripheral stuff with it. Just kind of break down cases so that everybody will come away and kind of learn a little bit of forensic science, maybe a little general science even, and be hopefully a little edified. They will learn broader scientific constructs from just listening to some of the forensics, perhaps.

That's really good stuff. Physics, biology, chemistry. You have great cases on there and great history lessons about forensics. It's awesome. I'll put that link down in the description. But thank you so much for coming in today. Thank you, Julian. Appreciate it, buddy.

Everybody else, you know what it is. Give it a thought. Get back to me. Peace. And don't forget to smash that subscribe button and hit that like button on the video before you leave. Thank you.