Julian Dorey Podcast - 😱 [VIDEO] - PROOF That UFOs Are Monitoring Our Nuclear Missile Silos | James Fox • #138

Episode Date: February 25, 2023

Please Support Our PATREON: https://www.patreon.com/JulianDorey (***TIMESTAMPS in description below) ~ James Fox is an award-winning journalist, documentarian, and UFO expert. His most famous documentary is “The Phenomenon” –– which investigates UFOs and the global effort to conceal their existence. In 2022, James released yet another hit documentary, “Moment of Contact,” which investigates the 1996 Varginha UFO & Alien Sighting Incident. He is convinced not only that UFOs are real, but that governments have concealed information on this subject from the public for more than 65 years. Moment of Contact: ​https://apple.co/3xPPwJN The Phenomenon: ​https://amzn.to/41s7j7q ****TIMESTAMPS**** 0:00 - James’ flight disaster 4:21 - James’ rise to prominence w/ The Phenomenon 11:44 - Why James went back to 1947 w/ UFO sightings 16:01 - Clinton, Rockefeller & the Roswell Incident 24:04 - Jesse Marcel & Thomas DeBose (**CLIP**) 27:02 - John Mack & The 1994 Zimbabwe School UFO Sighting (**CLIP**) 35:08 - UFOs & the Nuclear Missile Sites Pattern 38:57 - Senator Harry Reid’s admission on Alien Nuclear Pattern 43:18 - All UFO news a distraction?; Project Blue Book & The Lonnie Zamora Incident 50:18 - James interviews Richard Holder’s kids; Creature tape? 58:49 - DC Saucers?; Eisenhower & Aliens Conspiracy 1:05:56 - Al Chop’s flying saucer sighting story 1:11:25 - CIA’s Robertson Panel 1:19:32 - The Aftermath of Lonnie Zamora’s sighting 1:25:53 - James reveals a report for the first time publicly 1:31:35 - James’ hunt for Zamora’s UFO metal shavings 1:39:31 - The fine line between skepticism & belief 1:44:37 - Why it’s narcissistic to assume we’re alone in Universe 1:52:00 - The Travis Walton Abduction Case 1:59:54 - What allegedly happened to Travis aboard UFO 2:05:34 - Witnesses emotional when revisisting sights of alien events 2:11:21 - Navy Pilot David Fravor & the Tic Tacs 2:15:59 - How does James keep all his information straight? 2:18:44 - Details on what’s next ~ Get $150 Off The Eight Sleep Pod Pro Mattress / Mattress Cover (USING CODE: “TRENDIFIER”): https://eight-sleep.ioym.net/trendifier Julian's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/julianddorey ~ Music via Artlist.io Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey guys, if you're on Spotify right now, please hit that follow button on the page. It is a huge help towards growing the show on this platform, and I really appreciate all of you who have already done so. To everyone who's listening to the show for the first time, welcome, and I hope you enjoy. It almost seems like they're watching us like a god a little bit if this is the case to make sure we don't destroy ourselves. So I interviewed a number of eyewitnesses regarding that aspect of the phenomenon, and that is particularly during the Cold War, the height of the Cold War. They are witnessed in Russia and all scattered across the United States. And this launch control officer, Robert Salas, I'll never forget this.

He said, well, James, the message I got when they shut our nukes off, it's almost like they were taking matches out of the hands of a baby. i'm trying to figure out this camera thing yeah we. We'll get it there. But James, this was a small world situation with you coming in because a few months ago, I had Alessi over here who's in the studio, who's a longtime friend now, future producer of the show. But I had Alessi in here about, I guess a year ago now, it was January, right? And he had just helped you produce this documentary down in Brazil. And about seven months later my friend danny jones from concrete calls me up and goes yo i got this really cool guy coming in tomorrow

james fox and i'm like like d james fox he's like yeah and then that podcast went to mars because no pun intended because people loved it and so now we got you here and i'm excited to have in someone who was actually on the scene with you as well yeah i almost got him shot too so but for people that don't know you drove down here from vermont so that is some that's some clutch shit right there and i appreciate you doing that yeah well i got on the airplane and uh early morning flight i think i got up around 3 30 a.m and which i hate getting up i hate early flights i'll stress about them for weeks and i get to the airport and the lines are long and i've got through security and i'm just like oh it's getting me on this airplane me out of here you know way

in the way back further seat all the way back about an inch from the toilet and i'm sitting there i was like all right well at least it's a quick flight so we're on the runway for over an hour i'm like why is this plane not taking off? They're just leaving us in the dark here, you know? And then it's like, ladies and gentlemen, we got a slight problem. One of our engines has failed us. Why didn't that pilot go, fuck it, we're going to give it a go? I know.

I was going to go, well, at least it failed now as opposed to halfway into takeoff, right? 75% shot, we're good. I'll take those odds. We're going down. So then he's like, well, we're going to sit on the tarmac, and we're going to have the mechanic come and fix the engine. I'm thinking, the mechanic's going to come and fix the engine on the tarmac? Like, let's take this airplane back.

He goes, the mechanic's going to be here in about an hour and 45 minutes. Like, you've got to be kidding me. We're going to sit here for an hour and 45 minutes waiting for the mechanic who doesn't even know what's wrong with the engine because he hasn't seen it? I'm like, I turned to the woman next to me. I was like, this is not adding up. And so we sat there for about an hour, and I was like, oh, my God. I'm going to be on this plane forever.

I should have been landing by now. So then he goes, actually, we'm going to be on this plane forever. I should have been landing by now. So then he goes, actually, we're going to cancel this flight altogether. We're going to bring it in. And at which point, you know, I decided to drive down. You made that decision. You called me as you was canceling the flight, like on the plane, and within 10 minutes you were behind the wheel of your car. That was some clutch-ass fast decision-making right there.

Yeah, I didn't even even the queue at the desk at the american airlines desk was so long and everyone's flight situation was so complicated because they had connecting flights that were that they were missed and so i knew that each person was going to take forever so i left good call well now you're here did wind line and it is also coming what, two and a half months since you released your latest documentary, Moment of Contact? Yes. And great job on that, by the way. Thank you. Great job as well, Alessi appearing on that thing.

Yeah. But the story about Virginia, which, you know, I was not familiar with that before Alessi went and did it in 2021 with you and was telling me all about i'm like holy you know this isn't that long ago it's 1996. yeah and we're going to get all into it but you know for you to be able to do this now i want to give you a huge huge thumbs up in that you've devoted your life to this and you're now at a point after the phenomenon which was your previous documentary in 2020 which we'll talk about later today you're at a point now where you can finally put a ton of resources into these. And it's not just you going around the world and doing every single thing. And it's really paying off because the storytelling and the style of this documentary is like a sucker for simplicity and putting things

together beautifully. Like it was brilliant. And I can't recommend it enough to people. Well, you know, it's funny you say that, because I was just, you know, wondering myself, do you ever feel like you always have this idea in your mind as an artist, maybe as you're doing podcasts, where you'd like to eventually be, right? And then you kind of maybe get there? Maybe. But you question, question like with the phenomenon it was a pretty big success uh thank god because i nearly died making it um it was either gonna die

or the film was gonna succeed there was no in between like was that like eight years eight years and the last wendy's most important deal of the day has a fresh lineup. Pick any two breakfast items for $4. New four-piece French toast sticks, bacon or sausage wrap, biscuit or English muffin sandwiches, small hot coffee, and more. Limited time only at participating Wendy's Taxes Extra. It's truck month at GMC. Tackle the open road with added confidence in the 2025 Sierra 1500 Pro Graphite at 0% financing for up to 72 months.

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She came up the stairs and she would leave the food for me at my foot because I couldn't even talk. And I was just, oh, oh. I'm not kidding you. I had lawsuits and people suing everybody and then the distribution company saying you know what we're just going to shelve this i finally get it done after eight years and now i'm looking at the prospect that my movie's going to be shelved because it's a liability because everyone's trying to sue everybody else who was trying to sue he had the he had the the pandemic hit and it was going to be released in theaters.

And so that got shut down. So then we pivoted to Netflix, and Netflix makes us a huge offer. And we're negotiating this huge Netflix original for The Phenomenon. And I have this outside guy who will remain nameless because it doesn't matter, but he negotiated the whole deal. He approached me. And then, you know, after weeks and weeks and weeks of negotiations, we have a multi-million dollar deal on the table, super pumped. All of a sudden, my distributor is like under the cloud of COVID, whoa, like timeout here. We can't sign. I said, what do you mean we can't sign?

He said, we accidentally signed a deal, non-exclusive with discovery channel oh yeah so netflix is going well how come you haven't signed we're like well there's just one little thing we're unwinding just everything's good like don't worry about a thing and then like week after week after week and and discovery channel wouldn't talk to me by the way guys just some context as to why i reacted that way about discovery channel i've heard some not so positive stories about them behind the scenes and one of those stories is also very public in episode 124 paul rosalie spent the first 20 minutes of that conversation explaining about his dealing with discovery channel and how it almost ruined his life so you can check that out later after this podcast and this is when the pandemic had started this

is oh yeah the pandemic, everyone's suing. So now the guy that put the deal together for Netflix, as he's seen it come unravel, is going, I just put my reputation on the line. I just got this whole deal buttoned up. Like, I'm going after you, and I'm going, you know. I don't really blame him. I mean, he did get screwed, but it wasn't my fault.

You know, and so he's coming after this, and then there's lawyers that he has and lawyers that I mean, he did get screwed, but it wasn't my fault. And so he's coming after this, and then there's lawyers that he has and lawyers that I have. And then there's my backers lawyers are worried about, because they've got deep pockets, that they're going to get sued. So everyone's lawyered up and I'm going, and I'm helpless in the middle of it. I'm just accumulating hundreds of thousands of dollars in lawyers fees. And I'm already a million dollars in debt for making the movie. You were a million dollars in debt. A million dollars in debt. We're not going to talk about that today.

You really have dedicated your life to this. It's amazing. And now, all of a sudden, it looks like my movie's not even going to be released. Could you imagine spending eight years? I'd end it. Eight years. The movie's done, and it's brilliant.

Everybody loves it. It's like a masterpiece, right? It's the movie you spent your whole career trying to make. Finally. And it looks like it's crash and burn time. And I was... I ended my rope. I couldn't...

The stress levels and the... You know, my partner Rebecca was just like, when is this? I don't blame her, okay? and the, you know, my partner, Rebecca was just like, when is this? I don't blame her. Okay. I'm not attacking her at all. I completely understand her saying this. When is this nightmare going to end?

This has been going on. You're so in debt. It's taking the family down. We've got a more, you know, all this stuff. I had no money. How old was your kid? Like four? My son was probably four or five, maybe five, five maybe maybe five and a half so you're a

newish dad i'm a newish dad you know yeah all these years working on this super duper broke i mean like you know i had some money in the bank from my funders but i was so much more in debt right i mean at the time i mean there was a period during the making of the phenomenon where i didn't even have a bank account. And I remember some of the people I was working with, they were like, what do you mean you don't have a bank account? I was like, I got some tax issues. And every time I put money in my account, it gets taken from the feds. So I got to deal with that.

I got to deal with it. I haven't dealt with it yet. You're like, OK, I've never met anyone who's making a movie with not a bank account. Oh, my god. There were moments where I was so broke I could barely afford to pay attention. I mean, I'm not kidding. Well, it worked out. It did, thank God. And I think that is some universe talking to you because there are a lot of people who try to go after something.

It gets a little hard. And even some people who stick with it, they give up after two, three, four, five years. You were doing this and working other jobs because you made made two other documentaries by the way over the years you've been you did it for 25 years 30 years of your life and so you're you're finally getting that point and then you put out with the phenomenon a documentary that has senator harry reid who's now he's like dead as fuck yeah unfortunately yeah he's r.i.p harry but har Harry was on there. You had David Fravor on there. You had your friend Jacques Vallée on there. Yep.

You went on Rogan with him, right? Yes. And that was when that documentary came out? Yeah, that was, I think we went on Rogan about a month and a half after the film came out. So probably December of 2021. No, 2020. 2020, right? 2020.

Yeah, it was the end of 2020. And then you brought you brought christopher mellon on camera for the first time who we will talk about later he was the guy who you said he walked him out walk the tapes out the evidence out of the pentagon onto the front page of the new york times insane so you had all these people in here and it really truly is a masterpiece because it takes it takes you in a timeline of really all the major UFO potential sightings that have occurred since World War II. Yeah.

I'll explain why I did that. You get that? Well, please explain. Okay, yeah. Let's go there. Yeah, because people say to me, like, oh, I really enjoyed the—some people enjoyed the first half, some people enjoyed the second half. I said, look, I get it, because the problem I was dealing with, a number of problems.

One is, no one's ever going to believe the second half if they don't have the first half. Yes. Okay? Good call. If I was to transcend the UFO community the likelihood of the landing in Rua Zimbabwe in 1994 at Ariel School. I had to set up the likelihood of that happening. Otherwise, no one's going to believe it. I wouldn't believe it. A UFO lands at a school in Africa, and the occupants get out and interact with like 100 schoolchildren witnessing this in broad daylight.

Come on, man. That's a pretty tall tale, right? Compelling as hell, too. Compelling as hell, yeah. It really is. But if you have no background on the phenomenon prior to that story, I myself, of course, had trouble believing that. Because I heard about that story in the 90s when I was making my first UFO film called. And you didn't believe it, right?

Absolutely. Let me tell you how I didn't believe it. So I was just naive enough to think in the 90s that I could get an interview with Steven Spielberg. And we had a mutual friend, this woman named Janet Yang. And, hey, Janet, can you get me an interview with Spielberg? I thought he was going to just say, you know, of course I was in my 20s and, you know.

I thought, yeah, of course he's going to say yes. He's into UFOs. I'm doing a documentary on UFOs, and he, of course, totally, you know, says no, but he said to her, tell James if he's doing a film on UFOs, and I think it was probably 1997 or 96, 96, 97, something like this, you should tell him that he should look into this landing case at a school in Zimbabwe. And I thought, oh, come on, man. Like, seriously, this guy's trying to waste my time here? I came from Spielberg, but I didn't waste any time.

I didn't look into it at all. Just like the new film, Moment of Contact. I'd heard about that case in the late in the late 90s and i refuse to look into that case because i just think the sorry i don't know why i got the sniffles here you have to edit that i'm leaving not what it looks like i swear no i don't have cove we were out last night. It's been a long two days for you. Oh, my gosh. No. But anyway, you know, I set up the phenomenon

doing an historical perspective from 1947 to modern day. And I did it because I knew that no one, if I penetrated a broad mainstream audience, no one in that audience is going to believe the landing happened in Africa and made contact with these schoolchildren if I didn't give them a snapshot history of the phenomenon. And we'll break it down later, but a really compelling aspect about that is the similar descriptions. Oh, yeah. When you go through that

documentary and and some of it is some people who are dead now and you're using historical footage and whatever and others you have the people who are still alive talking about it and they these are people from all over the world australia zimbabwe united states south america whatever and they're describing such similar imagery where it's like does that mean it's not possible that's not true well nothing's impossible but the when when you put that as like a mountaintop of evidence for people who have never really like looked into this before or cared even and are like aliens the fuck yeah you look at that and now you're like hmm okay i i can't i can't dismiss this. There is definitely some sort of, no pun intended, phenomenon here. Is it of this Earth? Maybe.

Is it of another planet? Maybe. And that right there is enough to move what some people would call the crazy lane that was aliens for a long time into the mainstream, which guys like you have done. Guys like Joe Rogan have done it as well, like talking about it, bringing guys like you on. So I found the children's testimony archival footage that Dr. John Mack and the BBC did back in 1994. So Dr. John Mack, who was a Harvard psychiatrist at the behest of a guy

named Lawrence Spellman Rockefeller, he was funding a ton of UFO research back in the 90s. Like a real Rockefeller. Real Rockefeller. Yeah. Lawrence Spellman Rockefeller. And he was funding all this research and he was also twisting the hand of President Bill Clinton at the time. And basically, I know all this because I dug into it for the phenomenon. A lot of the aspects of President Bill Clinton at the time. And basically, I know all this because I dug into it for the phenomenon. A lot of the aspects of this I didn't include in the film, but he was like, come hell or high water, we're going to get government transparency on UFOs. We want to get this stuff out to the general public. And Rockefeller told Clinton, if you don't do this,

I'm going to put it on every headline of the fact that you're refusing to do this. And Clinton did have an honest interest in the phenomenon, for sure. And he did go after it. Rockefeller asked him, what case do you want, you know, what case do you, oh, sorry, Clinton asked Rockefeller, what case do you want me to go after? And pick one case. And Rockefeller said, Roswell. Can you explain to people what happened in Roswell who don't know? Because this is like the most, in my opinion, at least from what I've looked at, I don't know if you agree, but it's probably like the most important UFO event in the history of at least the United States. Certainly, yeah. So in July of 1947, the military, the United States military, it was the 509th Bomb Squadron based in Roswell, New Mexico.

It was the only bomb squadron at the time exclusively responsible for the deployment of atomic weapons. The Enola Gay was there. It was a hand-select elite unit, and they announced to the world, this is a fact, that we recovered a flying saucer, a crashed vehicle from somewhere else. They announced it to the world. Probably less than 12 hours later, they... I can go into the specifics if you want. Please. Yeah, so what happened was, this guy Jesse Marcel, intelligence officer at the 509th, went out with a guy named Mac Brazel. So Mac Brazel was a rancher, and he had heard about these flying saucers. He'd heard about this reward for anything recovered or information. He had a huge ranch in the middle of nowhere, super remote spot,

and he comes in the local base, and he says, and he has some debris with him, and he says, you guys talk about these flying saucers. I think one of them crashed on my ranch. So they, of course, the 509th people, it was Major Jesse Marcel, and I don't remember the other name of the gentleman, the military guy. They went out with this guy on the ranch. They go in. They spend the night.

They come back the next day. They got this debris. They make the termination. All right, we've got a crash of an unknown vehicle from another and they make the announcement and they tell the world the higher-ups get involved they get a b-29 they put the debris on a b-29 they're gonna take it a Wright-Patterson Air Force Base Jesse Marcel's on the airplane they fly with us with a pit stop at Fort Worth in Texas. They get off the plane and there's a media frenzy everywhere. This story is making headline news

all across the world immediately. And there's a guy named General Roger Ramey. He's standing at the base of the airplane. He's at the base at Fort Worth. And he looks at Jesse Marcel, who just came off the airplane, and said, you keep your mouth shut, let me handle this. And so they go in to a room. There's a conventional weather balloon on the ground, just like balsa wood and tinfoil paper. And he says, and it was General Ramey, General Roger Ramey.

It was Jesse Marcel and Colonel DuBose. And they throw this debris out there. He said, you just stand there, and this is what we found. Smile for the cameras. Smile for the cameras, yeah. And so they kill the story right there on the spot. Terribly sorry. What we once thought was a flying saucer.

Turns out it's just a common everyday weather balloon. So this is actually... And Jesse and the debris is on the B-29 sitting on the tarmac right there. And I'll put this in the corner of the screen so people can see this. But if you turn to the TV behind you right now, I just want to make sure so that we can give people

also the stuff you put together so they can see this. I got those original photographs from Roswell, the local paper in Roswell. The Riggler prints, those are really high-resolution photographs in the phenomenon. All right, guys, I got an important announcement about the show. The Patreon is officially finally live. If you hit the link down in the description to the video or if you go to the youtube channel page and go to the about section you will find the direct link to the patreon page and i'm starting off with one five dollar a month group so i'm hoping that this is going to be a great driver

to be able to scale this show and invest back in you guys at this point i'm still the only employee of the show i have one intern who cuts together a few clips for the second channel that has like 430 subscribers on it right now so that's not really doing anything yet but i have been at this for three years and every single thing from the comments all the way to the metadata to obviously all the edits and everything around this show has been on my shoulders i think that's pretty normal for content creators who are coming up. That's just kind of the game and what it is. But in order to grow and really increase the content we do, I got to be able to invest and add some scale here and really add at least one person to be here in the trenches working with me every day. So I'm hoping

Patreon is that outlet and I would really really appreciate your guys support we are going to start off with 15 minutes of exclusive content being posted this week from James actually in the studio here and it was basically when the cameras were on in between what became the two podcasts we did that's right this is only the first of two podcasts coming and it had nothing to do with either of the two conversations so i'm going to take that 15 minutes and put that on patreon and that will be the first content we put there and hopefully we can add some things moving forward but to be clear this page has been something that some fans have been in my ears about for a long time to do to be able to scale the show and invest back in all of you. So I'm taking the advice and hopefully it

works out. So thank you to everyone who's going to support it and hope to see you over there. Who was this guy, by the way, walking through? Jesse Marcel. That's who you're talking about. Okay. So this is, this is him reliving it. Yes. And this was this, I forget, was this your footage? No, this was shot in the eighties and I'm the most rare footage in the history of this case. We did a laser-like focus on Roswell. I got the number one researchers, Stanton Friedman, Kevin Randall, I got Don Schmidt, all the people that wrote the book on Roswell. And they said, this is an aspect that everyone has missed. I put a laser-like focus on it i must have spent nine months maybe maybe a year getting just the facts on this case just i remember uh i remember dr um uh uh jacques valet and he was a little hesitant he was like oh roswell's a hot kind of a hot button issue i he he would sit in the back of the edit room with me. Jacques Vallée is one of the most respected

intellectual heavyweights on the planet alive today in the scientific community. And he is working with me on the phenomenon. He was reluctant. He was like, ooh, are you sure you want to touch Roswell? I said, yeah, I'm going to do Roswell. And he would sit in the back of the edit room and he'd say, just the facts, ma'am.

Wow. Just the facts, ma'am. That's fax ma'am that's awesome that's what this this segment is so that's that's jesse marcel let's let's play this part right here absolutely this is from the phenomenon this is about some maybe an hour into the documentary you did this is the one from 2020. you couldn't even bend it you couldn't bed bend it, you couldn't bed-dead it. Even with a sledgehammer, it was off it. Marcel was ordered to immediately transport the strange wreckage to Fort Worth Army Airfield. There, Marcel was met by the commanding general who told him to keep silent

in the face of what was becoming a media frenzy. They had a whole flock of microphones there. They wanted me to... They wanted some comments from me, but I wasn't that good, but they didn't do that. There it is. Marcel was instead ordered to pose with wood, foil, and rubber debris

from a conventional weather balloon. The real stuff was on the airplane on the tarmac, just like... All I could do is keep a mouth shut. Wow. And General Ramey is the one who told the newspapers what it was and forget about it. It was nothing more than a weather observation balloon. Of course, we both knew differently.

Both knew differently. Colonel Thomas DuBose. And he said that so confidently. Colonel DuBose. Can you play this one more statement by Colonel DuBose? Oh, sure. Yeah, absolutely. Because this guy was also in the photograph. Colonel DeBose, can you play this one more statement by Colonel DeBose? Because this guy was also in the photograph, Colonel DeBose. Thomas DeBose, who was also ordered to pose with the fake debris, describes how an iron curtain of secrecy slammed down.

This is the highest priority you can exist. And you will say nothing. More than top secret, as he said. Beyond that, this is the story we're going to tell the public. party you could exist and you will say nothing more than top secret as he said it beyond that this is the story we're going to tell the public it was a cover story the balloon part of it in order we don't have any more inquiries about what we picked up on the desert well there you go so you know I get the chills even to this day looking at that because you're going to tell me that a weather balloon is top secret? Higher than top secret.

Like beyond top secret, you know. That wouldn't have passed in the social media era. Exactly. Back then, take a few pictures, get in the papers tomorrow, it's over. So this happens, you know, and then of course I didn't even get into the bodies of Roswell because that's a whole other can of worms. But there's a preponderance of eyewitness testimony that would indicate there were bodies recovered as well. So, you know, getting back to Rockefeller and Clinton, Clinton went after Roswell and Clinton was not happy with the answers they were getting. And I know this because I talked to all the people around Clinton at the time, even Sheila Widnall, Secretary of the Air Force, John Podesta. I talked to members of the Rockefeller family about it.

Did you do that on camera? No. I was going to say, I didn't see that. No, it's not in the film. I kind of kept that aspect of it as kind of off to the side. Yeah. In any case, paralleling that push of the Clinton administration, Rockefeller was also funding this guy who was at Harvard, psychiatrist,

by the name of Dr. John Mack. And he was funding him, and he was funding all these other UFO researchers, but really funding john mack so john mack the guy you were talking about right so john mack with the funding of lawrence rockefeller was flew down to africa with a camera crew and documented i think it was roughly 66 out of the 100 school children that were on the field that day, broad day, it was like 10 o'clock in the morning, 1994, I think it was September 1994. And I find the testimony of the children so compelling because it's one after the other. And they're all talking about these big, big black almond-shaped eyes and the telepathy.

That was the thing. It was also, you know, as I listened to the testimony of these children, I was so moved by it. All these kids saying the same thing. Of course, some of them saw the craft over here. Some of them saw it over there. And they saw red lights and blue lights and green lights, all metallic, bright, shiny object. And it was almost like you got the impression that whatever it was they were looking at was in between dimensions, because it could appear here and appear over there.

This is one thing that I didn't share. It's certainly not in the movie, but according to the children, these beings that were roughly the size of them were as curious about the children as the children were of them, and they were mimicking the children's behavior on the playground. They were almost like... Because the children would get to these... In Africa, in Zimbabwe, I was told that if the grasses and stuff weren't maintained and mowed, there were dangerous snakes and spiders and things of that nature out there. So the children were not allowed to go beyond these big telephone poles that find the perimeter of the playground but being children they would go

all the way out to these poles and they would skip and dance on them knowing that if they went two inches to the right they would be out of bounds which they weren't allowed to do they get in trouble for so they would skip along these poles and the children told me as as adults that these little creatures were mimicking their skipping behavior in a very benign fashion. Didn't you say something about they were like jumping on the logs with them too? Skipping along. They were kind of floating along the logs, according to the children. Very happily and non-threatening, but they were as curious of the children as the children were of them, according to the eyewitness testimony. And it was the preponderance of eyewitness, firsthand eyewitness testimony. I mean, you think about

100 schoolchildren in broad daylight all seeing something completely inexplicable. There's no terrestrial explanation to what those children saw i'm trying to remember did the kids because you intersplice this with dr john max interviews from back then when they were all children and then you brought some of these now adults back to discuss it and you did it on camera yes at the school i remember in the documentary the adults described telepathy yes did the i don't know if the kids used the word but did they describe how the it was the aliens were communicating with them in their mind yes yes they did the children did yes that they would see imagery that they they were communicating telepathically with these children. And what were they saying to the children?

They were depicting destruction of the planet. Um... Technology was gonna be our downfall. That was amazing that the kids were saying that. Things of that nature, and all these children were saying... Now, now, not every child had the telepathic communication, but the ones that came face to face... How many? Let me look at Selma.

A good percentage. Honestly, I don't know, because I didn't talk to all those, but a lot of them. So you have Dr. John Mack. He had, I think, 66 children on camera, both in the playground and sat down interviews inside. And they all saw either the craft or the beans at a distance, and there were a handful, because there were different groups of kids in different locations. Everyone froze. I mean, they were just like, what the hell are we looking at here? And some of them had face-to-face contact, like Selma, for instance, and I said to Selma and Liesl, well, how close were you to this creature? She about a meter well a meter is like three feet right so that's like arm's length and it was the same size as them same size as them yeah which is

how these are often described at all these they're childlike really funny because they interview this one kid and it's on the archival footage and the person asking, so how, exactly how big was this being or whatever you call it? And the kid goes, about my size. About my size. It was so cute. Oh my gosh. And they talked about it so matter-of-factly, you know.

And there's no bias with children at that level, you know. They're not saying like, we saw aliens from Alpha Centauri or, you know, it's like're not saying like we saw aliens from alpha centauri or you know it's like here's what we saw we all saw it and uh you know and the other thing is that they they felt that the adults had let them down well of course the adults didn't have an explanation for what had happened the school teacher then school teacher now she's the head mistress judy bates actually had her own experience with this thing and she kept it quiet because she was in fear for her career her reputation because she felt terrible i actually went to africa and i met with her and she apologized i said anything you'd like to say to the children she's like i'd like to apologize i was dealing with my own kind of experience and she was concerned about her reputation and her career and

her future and decided to just keep that quiet for 20 whatever plus years and what what year did you visit there again like 2018 i went there in like 2017 2018 something like that yeah so here's a little clip from i i i think this was selma cuz I don't remember all their names but not not her right there she's about to come on this alleged encounter caught the attention of Pulitzer Prize winning Harvard psychiatrist dr. John Mack seen that he was looking at all of us is that her that's Liesl Liesl she had face-to-face telepathic communication. Sort of solvable.

Alright, so she said, I felt scared. Well, I felt scared because I've never seen such a person like that before. And I saw this person. And it had big eyes. That's all I saw about it. Yeah, that's Emma. She lives in Australia now. With a big head and eyes that are bigger than ours.

How much bigger than ours? Four or five times the size. Four or five times the size of ours. So then I was looking at him, right? Yeah. Then he was looking at me back. How could he just keep on looking at him so I had to stop and I looked sideways? And none of them ran. It's just that the face is the eyes. Maybe they're trying to communicate with us, show us something which we don't know about i think they want um people to know that we're actually making harm on

this world and we mustn't get too technology we don't okay so that's what that i want to leave it right there because here's a very i think central question around some of these ufo sightings, and we're skipping around a little bit today. We're going to get to a moment of contact very soon. I do want to take it there deliberately, but I want to stay with this for a second. In a lot of the UFO cases that maybe we'll get to later again,

in the phenomenon, there's the mention that these UFOs will appear at nuclear testing sites or nuclear bases where they have the actual weapons yes and there's even reports that the weapons a lot of reports where the weapons suddenly inexplicably become disabled when these things have appeared and we've had military guys that you had in in your documentary even old guys who, this was years ago, testify about this. There's been a ton of sightings in Russia that are of the same thing, and they keep showing up very often, obviously not in the case of the Zimbabwe one, but they show up at the places that house the weapons that, at least since World War II, have been the most dangerous

potential warning sign of us having the end of humanity if we started to hit that button and you kind of wonder when they come and and talk to these kids playfully in a way and and i i can't put myself in their shoes who knows where the fuck they're from or you know what kind of time or theory of relativity they've figured out which is obviously far beyond us. But it almost seems like they're watching us like a god a little bit, if this is the case, to make sure we don't destroy ourselves. And then they come to innocent little children, playfully talk with them in a telepathic way where these kids, they're fucking eight years old, seven years old. And they're talking about how word this is in 1994 before the internet how we're destroying the planet and doing all this to it and that's the warning they give it's almost like that was a way for them to go communicate to the everyman

through the eyes of an innocent child the things that they're trying to say by saying don't hit that button idiot when they're standing at these nuclear bases or flying over these nuclear bases so i interviewed a number of uh eyewitnesses regarding the um that aspect of the phenomenon and that is they're seen over these particularly during the cold war the height of the cold war they are witnessed in in russia and all scattered across the United States. And this launch control officer, Robert Salas, I'll never forget this. I think I included this in the film Out of the Blue I did. He said, you know, because he was so funny. It was like, I could tell why he was a launch control officer because he had these nerves of steel. He was just super calm, just measured, calm, collected,

not the kind of guy that would, you know. And he goes, well, James, the message I got when they shut our nukes off, it's almost like they were taking matches out of the hands of a baby. So he said to me, I was like, wow, I think about that all the time. I was like, yeah,

maybe you shouldn't be playing with these. Yeah. Yeah, that was the message he got. So it was really funny, because that aspect of the phenomenon is just crazy, right? Because if these things are coming over our most guarded areas and shutting down our nukes, turning them on in some instances, but just to kind of let them know that they had full control.

Wow, that's kind of intense. That's an issue of national security. And if it ain't, I don't know what is. I'd known about this, but I wasn't going to include it in the phenomenon. I just didn't want to go down that rat hole Why did you then? Well, because when I got an interview with former Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid We had a amazing interview. He was the one that started that a tip program that ultimately ended up at AATIP, that secret Pentagon UFO program. Didn't that interview almost not happen or something?

Were you telling me that? Yes. What was that story? I'll tell you that in a second, because that's pretty damn funny. That's pretty funny. Well, I don't know, for some reason, during the sit-down interview,

and that was a big moment for me in my career. Like, I have George Knapp to thank for that. I said, we had a quick walk and talk, and he had a very limited amount of time with me. I mean, it was like, you know, I'm going to be from here to here, and then I'm out. And he had, like, security and all this stuff, and he was an important guy.

And I said, hey, do you mind if I get a quick walk and talk? He's like, okay, I think I got about a minute and a half. I was like, all right. So we're walking down this hallway. I dave my dp i said uh don't don't worry about lighting everything we just got to get this you know handheld just walk and walk and talk we got to you know better better something than nothing so i'm walking i might as well ask them you know a question didn't have any like professional audio gear or anything but i said what was more one of the more astonishing aspects of the phenomenon that you uncovered during this Pentagon UFO program? And without

even pausing, he said, the fact that they're flying over our nuclear installations and shutting them off. I thought, oh my God, did the former Senate majority leader just say that on camera to me? Wow, that's incredible. And that was something I just forgot to ask him. I didn't think about asking him that question during our interview. Why do you think he did it? Did the interview? Yeah. I mean, he had been around forever.

I know. You know, it's such a risk for someone's reputation. You know, he did that program all the way through the tail end of the Bush presidency, all the way through Obama's presidency, and then into Donald Trump's presidency before it came out. So that program was secret. And I wonder if Christopher Mellon and Lou Elizondo and a handful of others behind the scene hadn't opted to do what they did. Find a loophole, retire, step down. Lou left in protest of the excessive secrecy. What was his job title?

Lou Elizondo. He ran the UFO desk. He ran that program, the AATIP. And, you know, there's been controversy around Lew. I'm like, Lew was exactly who he says he was, and he did exactly what he said he did. I mean, I spoke to Senator Harry Reid about it, and I actually was there when Lew got the letter from Senator Harry Reid confirming all the things. Lew was head of that program.

Lew stepped down in protest of excessive secrecy. They found a loophole and Christopher Mellon walked that evidence out of the Pentagon, the go fast, the tic tac videos. Is that David Fravor? Yeah, it was part of the Nimitz 2004, Nimitz 200 miles off the coast of San Diego 2004, David Fravor. And then there were David Fravor, his wiso, I guess, was the guy in the back seat. And then another pilot and his wizzo.

So, yeah, I think four pilots all in all. But in any case, he walked those tapes out on the front page of the New York Times. It's not because people go, why are we experiencing more government transparency? Because a handful of insiders decided that there's too much secrecy around this. There's something truly inexplicably going on. There's very compelling evidence and the public has a right to know. So that's why, and now they can't put the genie back in the bottle, right? The intelligence people have been like, even Senator Reid said this to me on camera. He goes, when they found out I wanted to do a UFO program, even though it was hidden from the public, they were just putting the brakes on.

No, we can't do this. No, no. He got so much resistance and he fought back and he made it happen. But it was still in secret. Obama didn't know about it. Bush didn't know about it. And Trump didn't know about it. Wow.

Yeah, I know. bush didn't know about it and trump didn't know about it wow yeah i know i mean in some ways like i know there's all kinds of like power broking behind the scenes in dc your position like the democratic leader of the senate like you've been there a long time you were there before the president was there and everything so there's yeah there in some ways i could see that but still to have someone that high profile talk about it is wild and if i played like cynic devil's advocate for a second if this were some if these things were the beginnings of all these crazy secrets that they possess that now they're admitting like they do have secrets to the public i wonder if there's almost something way bigger that could very well have to do with aliens that they're trying to divert attention

away from by throwing us things and acting like oh wow yeah no this happened like look at this fucking secret from 1955 we had yeah yeah we recovered that and people are like holy shit but they'd really be going oh my god like if they saw the real stuff that maybe they're not going to release. Like I do wonder about that. They definitely have. We've only seen the tip of the iceberg. Oh, I know that. But I'm saying like, they've talked about the icebergs there. What about the other iceberg over there? The one that like the Titanic hit? Like what if that's a way bigger iceberg and they're like not trying to draw attention to it. They're trying to divert attention by get carrot and a stick in it to all of us. Well, so this is something that I can give an example of obfuscation,

okay, in my opinion. This is just my opinion. Nothing I'm stating is, well, the stories I'll tell you are factual in the sense that they're out there and they're pretty credible. I was investigating a landing case from 1964 in Socorro, New Mexico, from a police officer by the name of Lonnie Zamora, who was on duty in a hot pursuit. Socorro, New Mexico, 1964, Lonnie Zamora, your audience can look it up. And in the process of that investigation, it was a close encounter of the third kind. And a close encounter of the third kind, and this was in the peak of Project Blue Book, five years before it got shut down. Can you tell people what Project Blue Book is? Yes. So Project Blue Book was Air Force investigations of UFOs from 47 to 1969 when it was terminated. It started off as Project Grudge, sorry, Project

Sign. The conclusions of Sign were that we were being visited. That was scrapped. It went to Grudge and then it went to Project Blue Book. But anyway, it was spanned from 47 to 69. In that investigation, during the investigations, there was a guy named Dr. J. Allen Hynek. And Allen Hynek classified UFOs into three categories. One, close encounter of the first kind, someone sees a UFO. Close encounter of the second kind, they see the UFO, and somehow the UFO interacts with the environment, whether it leaves burn marks on the ground or someone's face or picked up on radar, photographed, it interacts

with the environment somehow. It's there. Close encounter of the third kind is when, and this is like the Air Force's own files, it's not coming from me, is when there are reports of entities, beings associated with the UFO. So you have a UFO on the ground, and you've got beings standing next to it. That was a case in 1964 with police officer Lonnie Zamora that I was investigating. In the phenomenon. In the phenomenon. Very good case. It was a turning point for one of the debunkers, the loudest debunker, Dr. Dr. Hynek, who did a complete 180 and

that was one of the cases apparently that really swayed him because he found the credibility of the police officers so high and there was physical evidence on the ground and there were other people that saw the UFO and he got within 35-40 feet of a landed egg-shaped object and you wonder when the tic tacs were invented i don't know what year they were was tic tacs around in 64 would lonnie have described it as a tic tac what the units saw like that it was a white egg shake he called it a white egg-shaped craft with landing gear and that's what he saw with the people right there. Yeah, there were two

beings, yeah, in white fitting like coverall suits and they looked diminutive, like small, childlike is the way he described them. I'll put that picture in the corner of the screen so people can see. Yeah, and he had direct eye contact with it. So anyway, I'm investigating this case and I'm really sticking my teeth into it. I mean, I the national archives i found never before seen archival stuff and drawings of the landing sites and photographs and i'm finding archival footage i befriended uh lonnie zamora's wife mary i became friends with her i got her on camera for the first time ever because he's dead now he's dead unfortunately i missed him by a few years ah that's a whole nother story damn it oh there's so many things I wanted to ask him about Was he killed before you could get to him?

Oh my gosh I don't want to go too far down this case But it's a really good case And there's physical evidence to this case And more than just landing imprints And footprints of the creatures And all this other stuff But I'm investigating this case

And I'm doing so over about a five year span I'm going back and forth to Socorro Like I said I got to know his wife I got to know his daughter Diane so over about a five-year span. I'm going back and forth to Socorro. Like I said, I got to know his wife. I got to know his daughter, Diane, and his son, Michael, and his friends, people that he worked with. Got them all on camera. Some of them didn't end up in the film.

God, I don't know why that happens. It just does. You think you get all this amazing stuff, but there's only so much you can squeeze. Yeah, I don't know how you fit it all in. How do you squeeze it all in? It's like one case among many many other cases you know what real quick just side note have you ever seen the frontline interview file i don't know if that's what they're called but like the pbs frontline interview files where they play the full

interviews they had a separate content brilliant that's a brilliant thing to do you should do that i am sitting on terabyte upon terabyte of interviews. Yeah. I probably have the biggest collection of UFO interviews on the planet. Well, you should do that. Because I've been doing this for 30 years. It's like insane, right? I have so many.

James, we're going to do that. I know. I have so many. The thing is, I don't have the bandwidth to do all this. But what I did do. Well, here you go. There's your bandwidth. what I did do. Well, here you go. There's your bandwidth. What I did do.

What I did do two years ago, right after I finished The Phenomenon, I thought I got to get all my interviews and all my other hard drives and old hard drives. And I got to put them all in one big fat drive. So I got two, I think, 30, 35-terabyte drives, maybe 48-terabyte drives. I got a couple of them, and I put everything on them. Every film I've ever made, every interview, they're all there. So then I got three back. I got one in Vermont, one in California, one in a storage.

Don't tell people where this shit is. Are you out of your mind? Busta Manta is going and finding it right now. But, no, it's a very good idea. I should definitely do that. But let me get back to this because this is interesting. This is really interesting. I come across, and this is when I'm investigating the landing case,

the Close Encounters of the Third Kind. I come across some articles by a woman named Coral Lorenzen at the UFO Chronicle or UFO Post she did during the 50s and 60s. She was a very prominent researcher, Coral Lorenzen. I'm trying to think of the, or anyway, I'm reading this article because quite honestly, I thought it had something to do with the landing at Socorro with the officer Lonnie Zamora. And one of the aspects, the Air Force, and they were on the scene within one hour, Army and Air Force,

they did not want Lonnie to talk about the fact that he saw these creatures. Downplay that. Don't talk about that. It's one thing to see an unidentified craft. It's an entirely different story when you're looking at some aliens, right? something that appears to be alien like that's much more difficult to explain than an egg okay everybody see the leprechaun yeah yeah exactly so so they were really getting

delaney to downplay that so it was very difficult for me and lonnie's dead to find you aspects of that encounter of the creatures. But I found it. The media got there just before the military arrived. Holder, his name was Richard Holder, and he was from White Sands. And he got there, and I actually talked to his kids. He unfortunately deceased, and they didn't make it in the film either, dang it. But they told me that the father took plaster casts of the alien's footprints

in the ground and the landing prints of the craft. And they said it was in the middle, it was an arroyo in the middle of the desert and it was really heavy. Like they, there were no trucks, there were no tire tracks leading up to the site. So whatever it was came down and landed out of nowhere and left.

And there were a couple of footprints exactly where Lonnie Zamora, the police officer, saw these creatures. And they were weird footprints. They were small. They were like... Yeah, you had this in the film, the footprints, right? Totally, yeah. So I'm investigating this, and I'll get to this other aspect in a second, because this is pretty amazing. So I read this article by Coral Lorenzen, the UFO Bulletin,

and it's talking about a landing. And I was like, oh, cool. I'm going to get some more details on Socorro. And it's talking about a landing at Holloman Air Force Base, a landing that was also a close encounter of the third kind. However, this one might have been filmed by the military at White Sands. Excuse me. Now, Holloman is a stone's throw from Socorro. I mean, it's like as the crow flies, I don't know, a few minutes, 30 miles. I mean, it's close. Okay. Well, I'm absolutely convinced that the

Socorro case happened, but now I'm suddenly starting to hear about a landing at Holman. I don't exactly have a date. I think it might have been like right around the same time, but I don't have a date, which would have been around 64. And I'm finding this reports from Corral Lorenzen from that time in 1964 pretty damn credible. I'm like, hmm, so then I find another article. And that leads me to, it was testimony from people that were at the base at the time talking about a UFO flying saucer landing and the occupants getting out. Now, I know this sounds extremely, like, what's the word word i'm like outlandish uh untrue too fantastic whatever i get it but i'm leading slowly then i i find a film called ufos past

present and future and it was done by two guys emin agar and alan sandler in 1974 they probably started shooting in 60 72 something like that shooting now these guys had you can go out and watch the film it's on youtube these guys had unprecedented access military access during their production how'd they get it i don't well they got it from a guy named Colonel Coleman at the Pentagon, but that's... I won't go too far down there, but they did. They just did. And in this production, they're working with Hynek.

They're working with... And Hynek was with Project Blue Book, the United States Air Force, but he's since left the Air Force. It was 72, something like that. He's working with Quintanilla, who ran Blue Book. They're working with Robert Friend, who was also part of Project Blue Book. They're working with this guy, William T. Coleman, who is currently at the Pentagon.

He was public liaison officer for the Pentagon. And they were working with him at the time. Like, how did these guys get this level of cooperation in 1972? Wow. And I could tell every aspect of this production was carefully crafted. Every word in this film was carefully crafted because they kind of had to because they were working with the military. Well, in this film, they talk about an incident at Holloman Air Force Base that maybe happened or could happen in the future, but it might have already happened. Could happen in the future. Yeah, exactly.

So I'm like, huh. So I get in touch. I watched the movie and I'm like, God, everything else is so factual. All the cases are so factual. Like everything is like, you know, they cover Socorro. They cover all these other cases that I've covered that I'm like, God, everything else is so factual. All the cases are so factual. Like, everything is like, you know, they cover Socorro. They cover all these other cases that I've covered that I'm very familiar with. There's something going on about this.

So I contact Emenager, excuse me, and I contact Alan Sandler, the guys that made the film. Emenager is super willing to, like, go on the record and talk to me on camera, and he's super excited. He's like, yeah, they had film footage of that landing at Holloman. I said, what? Yes, they have film footage of a landing at Holloman.

We almost got our hands on it. That's why we made the movie about an incident that may have happened already, or maybe it's something that's going to happen in the near future. But isn't that interesting, okay? So Emmen Eager is convinced that, and the relevance of this story will come out in a minute, I promise. No, this is good.

Keep going. So, Emenager is convinced that this film footage of a UFO landing at Holloman Air Force Base and the occupants getting out and interacting with the base commanders exists. I know that sounds nuts. Believe me, I know that. But one of the producers of the film was convinced it happened. I said, well, why are you so convinced?

He said, because the guy at Paul Shardle, who was at Norton Air Force Base, audio video department. I have a clip of him. I could show it, get it to you. Paul Shartle had the footage at Norton Air Force Base, and he was going to give it to us. And somehow the higher ups got involved and the footage vanished. I said, well, so then I'm going to Alan. I going Alan what's this about this footage and why is it not in your movie like what happened he goes oh yeah I was shown that footage I said well hold on a second I'm driving my car and I'm on the phone with him

and I said excuse me hold on a sec what he goes yeah no I was shown that Paul showed me the footage well your partner who you produced this movie with he doesn't know that. Well, I was kind of told, you know. Well, he was told what?

I'll tell you what happened. So, and this is all parallel in the Socorro. I was only found out about this really because of the Socorro case that I was investigating. Which you were looking at because of Zamora. Because of Lonnie Zamora. And it was a proximity to that and the time frame and proximity to the base in Socorro is very close.

Holloman, White Sands, blah, blah, blah. Now, they were testing missile sites and they were doing all kinds of activity that might have been of interest at White Sands. I don't know how far away it is from Trinity site. Probably not that far. New Mexico was a was a hotspot I'm gonna put by the way just for people out there I'm gonna put a very not like a Google Earth one but a very basic map with like a pinpoint of these places you're talking about in the corner so people can see for the visual perfect idea so so I'm in a car I'm talking to Alan and he tells me out of the blue that he saw and this is the guy that produced UFOs past

present and future he's got Jacques Vallee in the movie he's got all these characters are all part of the government I mean like something's up I pull the car over and I did what I always do when I want to really absorb a story. And that is I close my eyes. And the reason why is because I want the words to create the imagery. I want to know exactly every detail of what he saw. So I pull the car over the side of the road, stop, turn the engine off, had the speaker, I had my phone on speaker, and I said, Alan, tell me exactly what you saw. So he said, okay. There were three discs that were escorted by a

military jet, roughly 10, he wasn't sure of the altitude, 10, 12,000 feet. It was guesstimation. And this is what the film footage saw that he claims to have seen, that Paul Shardle at Norton Air Force Base in California, on camera, admitted that he had it in his possession. He'd seen it. And that it was not of Earth origin, in Paul Shardle's opinion. Emmenegger's opinion as well, but Emmenegger never saw it. So you've always been picky about your produce. But now you find yourself checking every label to make sure it's Canadian.

So be it. At Sobeys, we always pick guaranteed fresh Canadian produce first. Restrictions apply. See in-store or online for details. Alan Sandler did see it. Alan, he doesn't know what it was. He thinks it could have been some kind of potentially a stage event, whatever. So three discs flying in, okay?

Two of them peel away, gets over the base, and one of them wobbles to the ground, and he said it was like a leaf, like a leaf floating down from the sky. The way he said it was like, it looked like it was in trouble. Well, anybody,

any credible witnesses you ever talk to about a flying saucer, when they're hovering, they're unstable. it kind of he said it was like it looked like it was in trouble anybody any credible witnesses you ever talked to about a flying saucer when they're hovering they're unstable they kind of all the witnesses will tell you that was like a ship floating on a rough sea almost kind of they do this kind of movement i've seen footage of a ufo one time that did exactly that and it's it looks like it's uh oscillating it's it's it's got a way, I don't know, it's just, it's not stable. So anyway, he says it wobbles down to the ground like it was in trouble. But I don't think Alan knew that's how they hover, apparently.

So, it goes down to the ground, and he goes, you know, James, I said, well, hold on a second, was the camera on sticks? Was it handheld? Was it black and white? Was it color? Like, what, you know, because if it was on sticks, then they were anticipating it coming.

So, because... Are you also listening for where, it feels like when you do this, because you want such detail, are you trying to listen to poke holes on where he's not going to be very sure about something and you can kind of pick up on it? Totally. Yeah. Yeah, I want every, I did that, you know, I did that once with Edgar Mitchell, the Apollo 14, six men to walk on the moon.

Cause I wanted to know what it was like to walk on the moon. I'll give me every detail, you know, down to the macro meteorites pelting the skin of the craft. They were sitting on the surface of the moon, but that's another story. So anyway, he says it lands and he said, James, just like in a sci-fi movie, this seamless door opens and out come these beings that had very large noses, slits for mouths, and their eyes were almost like a vertical slit, like a cat eye, like very big. And they had...

I'm not saying... I need to make this abundantly clear to your audience. I'm not saying what's true or what's not true or if it happened or if it's alien or whatever it is. I'm just telling you what I was told by people who saw it, claimed to have seen it. And that they came out and they met with the base commanders and then they either got into a jeep or about to get into a jeep or do something and then the film footage just cuts so i was like what happened why didn't you guys get to use that footage he goes well i think it was one of our flying saucers alan was like it was definitely one of our flying saucers i was like so you think that we have flying saucer technology in our possession he goes yeah but it wasn't very good

because it couldn't hover very well. It looked like it was in trouble. I said, yeah, but... Wait, one of ours? That's what he was saying. But he's talking about... He's mentioning seeing the creature here, too. Yeah, so here's what his thoughts were.

His thoughts were that it was a real flying saucer that was in our possession, which would indicate that we had that technology in 1972, which I think is bullshit. Okay. And that the beans were made up, dressed up, whatever. He's like, I can't say for sure. So I'm hammering. So I really stuck my teeth into it. Now, the point of this is that there is very credible testimony claims that a UFO landed

at Holloman Air Force Base. There are a number of witnesses that were on the record. Corral Lorenzo documented this whole thing in the UFO Bulletin. Then there was a film made roughly eight years later that was going to possibly include that footage. Now, Paul Shardle, who showed the footage to Alan Sandler, had Man in Dark Suits show up from wherever and say, you know, don't ever talk. What happened here?

This was not supposed to have happened and took the footage away and debriefed him. And that was the end of that. Sir, look in the light, please. Don't even stare right here here your name is john smith so alan so alan didn't tell eminager for 40 whatever it was years wow so that whole aspect of it came out so now the point of the story is this okay now if you go online you hear about about secret meetings with President Eisenhower and aliens at a base and blah, blah, blah. You hear all this shit. You're like, there's no substance to that story at all.

In fact, there's lots of substance to the story I just told you guys. There is incredibly compelling testimony that that event happened and that there's film footage of that event. Now, what exactly it was? Was it first contact? Was it a staged event? Was it our technology? Was it a flying? I don't know.

But that story probably happened, okay? Some aspect of it. The meeting with the aliens and the treaties and all this stuff with president eisenhower was that just thrown in there to throw everybody off in my opinion absolutely yes is there a substance to the story i just shared with you absolutely yes but now suddenly that everything's been the waters have been muddied what a can of worms who the hell wants to look into that case of our president of the United States making contact and signing treaties with aliens? So it's like, oh, yeah, well, I'm going to steer clear of that, you know.

So just giving you one example of obfuscation, it's a perfect thing to do. I mean, what a great. Look, they had. Everyone's like, well, if UFOs were real, they'd land on the White House lawn. Well, they almost did in 1952, two consecutive weekends in July. Okay. They buzzed the Capitol. They buzzed the White House.

Yeah. We're going to bookmark that. Yeah. Very compelling. never-before-seen eyewitness testimony of the man who was in the radar room listening to the voices of the military jet pilot that was flying at 500 miles an hour through the darkness, the complete pitch black sky, and is surrounded by UFOs over the Capitol in 1952 in July. Holy shit. The man that was in the radar room. It's phenomenal testimony. Phenomenal.

Like he's suddenly surrounded by these little UFOs are surrounding him. What do I do? And they're looking. They can see it on the radar. There's his plane, and there's these UFOs all around him. What do I do? You know, they were given the orders to shoot. That's a whole other thing that

we can talk about later but all right you know what fuck a bookmark on this hold on a minute so when you say something like that and you're like oh yeah no 100 there were 1952 there were ufos in dc and whatever and then people hear something about eisenhower i'm just thinking of like all the most cynical people out there who are like what the fuck am I even listening to right now? Let's start with the 52 thing. Yes. You're saying that we had witnesses on the ground in D.C. Did you say they were all government-related or were there also civilians? Let's start there. Well, there were civilians too, but they were government-related, like pilots and radar operators and Al Chop.

I think it was like public relations between UFOs. You have to look them up, Al Chop. But Al Chop was in the radar room in 1952 when they scrambled military jets that were doing roughly 500 miles an hour through the pitch black. But these UFOs allegedly do like 12,000 miles an hour or something. Well, my point is this, the pilot was terrified. He was flying in pitch black,000 miles an hour or something. Well, my point is this. The pilot was terrified. He was flying in pitch black 500 miles an hour over the Capitol. And how many had they sighted again? You said so much in there.

I want to make sure we're following. Five to 12 UFOs. How big are we talking? They were not. They were like, you know, remember they described the Tic Tac? Yeah. They were in that ballpark size. And they were surrounding his craft flying at 500 miles an hour.

They were just, I mean, they would appear over here, appear over there. And at first, there was two consecutive weekends in July of 1952. You guys can, anyone can Google it. And at first, these UFOs would appear, they'd scramble the jets, and then as soon as the jets got anywhere near them, they were gone. They're just poof, gone. But at one point, the military jet, the pilot, went after him and they surrounded his plane. And Al Chop was in the room, and we have testimony on camera for the first time ever, because it was part of an archive. This guy went around with a camera and documented all these historical cases, thank God. But he never did anything

with it. Tom Tullian and Tom Project Archive. And I had read about this project archive and I was like, oh my God, footage of Al Chop, footage of this other person. This is unheard of. Nobody's got any of this stuff. And reached out to him and he's like, no, I don't know what you're talking about.

That's just some weird rumor on the internet. I don't have any of that stuff. And I was like, that's kind of weird. So then I was like, well, I'm working with Jacques Vallée. And he's like, you're working with Jacques Vallée? I have the footage. I have the internet. I don't have any of that stuff. And I was like, that's kind of weird. So then I was like, well, I'm working with Jacques Vallée. And he's like, you're working with Jacques Vallée? I have the footage. I have the footage. Yeah, I swear to God.

As a matter of fact, I do. Yeah, I was like, so can you get me dinner with Jacques Vallée? I said, I'll fly you out, and we'll get together. And so I did. I flew him out, Tom Tullian. We had dinner, and he goes, I'll tell you what. I'll make a couple of people. I've got this big archive, but honestly, I've got these other plans for it. I need to actually remember that because that guy's sitting on some crazy stuff.

And I'll make a couple of select interviews from my catalog available to you. And one of them was Al Chop. And Al Chop describes, because the first time ever in the 1952 case over Washington, D.C., where you have a witness that was in the radar room and heard the pilot of the military jet, heard his voice, saw the radar, saw his jet and all the UFOs around it, and listened to the pilot's voice who was terrified. What do I do? What do I do? They all just stood there in shock.

They didn't know what to tell him to do. We're sure this wasn't like the Nazis and they just figured some shit out there in world war ii and they were left so so here's the thing here's my i got thrown out there but here's my point again because i'm going to get back to obfuscation okay so what happens very compelling testimony very you know military pilots radar confirmation visual confirmation air-to-air radar air-to-ground Radar ground-to-air radar, you know all this stuff Really good case of course none of that made it in project blue book, but that's another story. So what happens? They got a figure they got to do something. It's making headline news. Google it anyone can google UFOs over Washington activity to it's behind you

Yeah, what the video there? Yeah, there we go. So It's making headline news. Google it. Anyone can Google UFOs over Washington, 1982. It's behind you. Yeah. Wikipedia there. Yeah. There we go. So they form the military, the CIA gets involved. They get a panel called the Robertson Panel, intellectual heavyweights, think tank kind of thing. And they get together, I don't know what the, it was a couple of weeks. We got to figure this problem out. This is a problem, right? We don't have control over airspace. We don't know what the, it was a couple of weeks. We've got to figure this problem out. This is a problem, right? We don't have control over airspace. We don't have explanation.

They had a big, it was the biggest news conference with General John Sanford since the ending of World War II. It was 1952. I don't know. They probably did that in July as well. You can look that one up. General John Sanford gives a press test, a press like addresses the nation in uniform, a general basically saying, hey, we got these objects, could be weather phenomenon, or there are these things that we just can't explain coming from

very credible people. And it's pretty big statement from the military general in 1952. It's like, wow. So they got this problem. So the CIA gets involved. They get the Robertson panel, 1953, early on in 1953. And ultimately what they say is, well, you know, lying to the public, so many tests. All right, tell you what we're going to do. We're going to adopt this policy of ridicule. And that's pretty much how this story has remained covered up

for all these years, because ridicule. And it was a policy that was adopted in 1953 by the Robertson panel and and it stuck how very CIA of them yeah and so that's obfuscation like that's just throw in a bunch of ridicule and jokes and laughs like if you think about a military pilot being surrounded by UFOs being you know seen visually picked up on radar all that stuff gun can footage you know there's nothing really funny about that yeah That's pretty intense.

But you have the ridicule factor. So now you've got this knee-jerk reaction. Anytime UFOs are mentioned, it's giggle factor, right? And that's a very effective campaign, and that started in 53. So I think that's another one of the reasons why they have changed the acronym from UFO to UAP, and now it's something else now but it's unidentified aerial phenomenon there are other reasons why because it had baggage the word UFO has baggage and you're saying they don't want it to have baggage they don't want it to have

baggage you don't think that like the intelligence services don't want it to have baggage well it does have baggage and they don't want that baggage yeah that's definitely one of the reasons why i promise you that's one of the reasons why they change it i promise you also it's slightly more accurate but yeah there are so many things but i do want to say this like for the record yeah there are so many things you're saying in these stories that i'm saying maybe every 15 seconds where i could stop you and ask like a clarification question but there's just too much so that would ruin the podcast so for people out there right now who are listening, like, but what about this? What about that?

Fair. We'll have some more podcasts in the future, and we can go look at some holes or some stuff that we had to be like another story for another day, and we will get to that at some point in the future. I just want to make sure people aren't just, you know, some things aren't at least being questioned. But I'm still obviously clarifying on some major things I hear. And so on this last point about the ridicule,

I mean, we know it's been covered in here and probably every podcast in America. Little green man. That the CIA essentially was very responsible for getting the term conspiracy theory into popular vocabulary after jfk and all that shit because they wanted people to make everything a conspiracy and mission accomplished fellas if you read the youtube fucking comments out there like everyone thinks everything that ever happened is like oh my god it was this this or that and so it then you you get to cloak the 1% in the 99 of bullshit and people will – you can just always use the excuse of, well, this one isn't one of the 1%. And so they can do the same thing until you hear you use that word ridic I guess, like, no pun intended, otherworldly, talking about UFOs and stuff. They would want that to be like, oh, yeah, that crazy asshole at the bar talking about this.

Yeah, and let me remind your audience, I'm very knowledgeable on what I'm knowledgeable about in terms of the cases and the historical perspective. I don't like read about stuff and report on it. I go after the first-hand eyewitness testimony, whether it's archival or whether they're still alive, I'm going after it, okay? I want the first-hand eyewitness testimony. That means the world to me. When I look into a specific case, I stick my teeth into it, and sometimes I'll stick my teeth into it for years. Not like I'm working on that case every day for five years, but on and off. You know, the 1952 case, I wanted the testimony from Al Chopp. Well, guess what? We found it. First time ever. I mean, that's just, that's because you have all the newspaper reportings.

It's really interesting. You got, you know, 1952, you got Project Blue Book going in full swing. Okay. Did they interview the pilot who was surrounded? No. No, they did not. Oh, that's a big hole. That's a pretty damn big hole.

But now we have testimony from a guy who was in the radar room describing the pilot's voice, like, for the first time ever. They didn't interview the bloody pilot as part of their public Blue Book files. Did you say that you knew who, that we know who he is? I can't remember that. I do have his name. I just, it's in the phenomenon. I've got a photograph of him with his airplane and I believe his name beneath it.

I'm sorry I don't remember his name, but it was 1952. But no statements from him. Hello? He's dead now. Of course he's dead now. Al Chop's dead now, but we get... I keep thinking El Chopo every time he says that. I'm waiting for like a brick of coke to come out.

Al Chop is doing an interview in the 80s and he's old then and he's smoking a cigarette during the interview the aliens were here chico but he was in the panic he was part of like public relations officer or liaison press liaison something like that it's explained in the phenomenon and i got his testimony in the phenomenon so what i guess what i'm saying is what what i know is from my own first hand i go to on location yes i'm investigating a case in Africa. Guess what? I go to Africa.

I'm investigating a landing case in Socorro, New Mexico. I'm going to Socorro, New Mexico. I'm talking to the family. I'm going to the National Archives. I'm talking to the friends. I'm talking to coworkers. I'm really going to stick my teeth into this case because I don't believe something. Initially, when I hear something like a landing in Africa, bullshit, right? A UFO crash in Brazil, bullshit. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary

evidence, period. I don't care what you think of Carl Sagan. He said that, and it's true, you know? So in any case, all the stuff I'm sharing with your audience is stuff that I have personally looked into and gotten the testimony of the archival or met with the witnesses years later. Or both. And that's how I draw my own conclusions based on my personal research. I don't just like, like somebody who will remain nameless, but he wrote a book on Socorro, and he got the symbol wrong that was on the side of the craft. And I called him up and I was like, hey, you know.

Well, how do you know? I said, because I went to the National Archives and I got the symbol wrong that was on the side of the craft and I called him up and I was like hey you know well how do you know I said because I went to the National Archives and I got the document that was written in Dr. Hynek's own handwriting of the case then I talked to his wife and I talked to the people around him and you know and that's how I know you know he's like I was like have you been to Socorro he's like no so you did a film you did you wrote an entire book on this case and you never even went to Socorro or He's like, no. So you did a film, you wrote an entire book on this case and you never even went to Socorro? Or the National Archives? Probably a government plant. He's not actually, but I bless his heart. He's a good guy.

But how are you going to write a book on something if you haven't even been to the location, you haven't met with his friends? His wife said to me, I'll never forget this. This is a guy who probably looked an alien straight in the eyes. A police officer. And this is not coming from me.

This is coming from them. She said, I don't know what he saw, but he was never the same. And he admits that he made eye contact with this thing. Like it looked, because he was calling out. He was driving in his car because he saw the object coming down as if it was landing and it was in trouble. He didn't know what it was. And then what was the aftermath, the thing,

they got back in and they left, right? Yeah, they got back in. So what happened was he was pursuing a speeder through the town of Sucorne, Mexico, April 24th, 1964, about 5 o'clock in the afternoon. And he's chasing after this car. It was convertible. And he sees like something flickering in the sky off to his right.

And he knows there's a dynamite shack. And he thought maybe some dynamite was going off. He was like, oh, shoot, this could be trouble. So he like terminates the chase. And he drives up this hill to get a look. And he sees this object down he gets up the hill and he looks down in this little

arroyo and he sees this object sitting on the ground with a couple of like these small little diminutive children like people is what he said looking at him and he's got his window rolled down and he's in his cop car and he's got his window rolled down and he's in his cop car

and he's probably a couple hundred feet 300 feet maybe a little more away from this object he's got the window down he's got his arm out the window and he's looking out the window with the window down what am i looking at he's like did a car crash and there's a couple of kids down there so he's calling out he's trying to call out like, hey, you okay? You know, you guys okay? Is everything okay down there? And I know this because I read the article that was written right after it happened. I was going over it with Mary Zamora, his wife. And at which point one of them looked him right in the eyes. And it really like, I don't know, he didn't talk about any level of communication, if he had any communication, whether he did or didn't, I don't know.

But he decides he's going to get a closer look at this thing. And in the process of doing so, he had to lose sight of the object for a moment. And I don't know how much you could see that. Like, let's just say, like, the UFO is here. He's on a dirt road here, okay? And he's looking that way. He's going to drive around to here but in the process of driving from here to here he loses contact with it just for a little

bit well he gets here as he's what do you mean he lost contact he couldn't see it visually for a second because he had to drive around a little hills and bushes okay so he lost visual contact with the craft that was sitting on the ground with the two beans on the outside. So he drives around and now he's about 50 feet away from this thing, 60 feet. And he gets out of his car and as he's getting out of the car to get a closer

look, to walk towards this thing, he takes about two or three steps. He hears a clunk and he used to be in the army and he said it sounded like that of a hatch of a tank. It was a very like, and he used to be in the Army, and he said it sounded like that of a hatch of a tank. It was a very like clunk, you know? And he didn't see them get in it. He didn't see the door close. That's what he heard. He got about three or four strides towards this egg-shaped object that had a red symbol on the side of it, which, again, obfuscation, okay? Well, this was actually one of the good things to have happen.

When the first military officer arrived on the scene from the army, his name was Richard T. Holder. And Richard Holder asked him, if he wouldn't mind, to say that the symbol was something different than what it was, and that the original symbol was never released to the general public. We found it in the archives in Dr. Hynek's own handwriting, and we had a description of it from the initial leaks that came out from the reporters that were on scene before the military got there, and it was an inverted V with three lines. So we weren't sure.

So what does that weigh in? So it would be like an A, basically, like this. With three lines through it? Yeah, with three lines. So we had thought that maybe it was a line here, a line here, a line here. Like a pyramid. Yeah. But as it turns out, we found out for the first time, and I took this guy, Ray Stanford, who wrote the book on it, A Succoral Saucer in a Pentagon Pantry. You can look that up too. And

Ray had been fighting the general public and the UFO community for 50 years when I took him to the National Archives and he was reluctant to want to go with me. We're not going to find anything, nothing new. I said, well, if you have that attitude, we're not going to find anything. I've researched, I said, let's go to the National Archives. So we go there and lo and behold, I won't bore your audience with how it came about, but we got the original Project Blue Book files from that case and they were original, not photocopies not microfilm original copies original drawings and we found the letter from dr jalen heideck who investigated

the case for the united states air force of an inverted v and three lines and what it was and you verified it was his handwriting oh 100 that was one right out of the air force files it's an inverted v i could draw it for your audience but it's a slit here one one here one here one here one here and then one on top inverted v i've got i think i have it's on the side of the craft in the film i'll do a shitty drawing and put it in the corner that's a little bit dangerously close to the pyramid angle though what what richard holder What Mulder did was he got... Actually, it made sense. It made sense. He got Lonnie to lie and say that it was something else, like a U-shaped thing with a line here and an arrow.

Why? Because if there were any copycat people that wanted to be in the limelight that said, I saw the same thing, and yes, that was a symbol on the side, then they'd immediately be able to identify a hoaxster. Smart. And that's why they did it. So it was smart. Very smart. Yeah, it was smart.

So the truth about that never came out. But, you know, and it's funny, actually. Again, there it was in the documentary. I did, oh, God, this is great. You know what? I'll talk about this right now because this is pretty intense. And you know what? I know I said this earlier, this is great. You know what? I'll talk about this right now because this is pretty intense. And you know what?

I know I said this earlier, by the way. I just want you to be totally free-flowing. I had said once or twice early in the podcast, we're going to get to a moment of contact. When I have a guest who's riding on some shit, we're riding on some shit and the plans are out the window. So keep going.

We'll get there eventually. I've never gone public with this because... Okay, so... Oh, that's over let's go all right let me give you guys the truncated version because it's kind of cool i interviewed when i tell you i stick my teeth into a case i stuck my teeth into a case let me let me take a sip of water i uh talk to this guy christopher o'brien he's like you're doing a document you know you're doing a documentary, you know, you're going to cover the Socorro, New Mexico case.

I'm going to remind your audience, it's probably only going to be eight to ten minutes max in an hour and a half or an hour and 40 minute film. But I want to get it right. I want to get every aspect of it right. So I flew to the East Coast. I met with this guy, Ray Stanford, who wrote the book, Socorro, Saucer, Pentagon Pantry,

talking about the case. Apparently, he was there within a week or so, saw the imprints, all the stuff. And in his book, Ray is talking about metal shavings from the landing gear of the craft that were recovered at the site. And Ray Stanford actually had those in his possession. Now, are they metal or metal savings? Were they metal appearing because it could be some element. We don't know about so here's what he how he explained it to me He said that and I wasn't gonna in fact. I don't I didn't even include this in the phenomenon. I didn't so And I had the rocks

Ray Stanford showed me the rocks what happened the landing gear came down This thing was very very heavy and it broke this rock in half it was a very hard rock and it had a razor sharp edge and The landing gear came down and hit that razor sharp edge of the of the freshly broken rock and it peeled like a shaving Very thin shaving like almost like when they make drinks and they get the orange and they get the little hangout and make those Yeah, he said it was like that metal shavings and um he got those he dropped one of them in tall grass never found it the other one went to a lab um at nasa and they determined that they were uh magnesium isotopes not found on the U.S., not found in the world, something like this. Is this what you had the Stanford doctor look at?

No. Different thing? Yes. Because he was talking about isotopes. No? Yes. I'm not crazy? Yeah, no, you're not crazy.

Okay, all right. Yeah, but that was a different thing. Okay. So this is Ray Stanford's story to me. And he's like, you know, I took these in. He's like, I had them in my hands. And he took one. One, he dropped in tall grass and never recovered. I was like, you had them in my hands. And he took one. He dropped in tall grass and never recovered.

I was like, you dropped it in tall grass and you never recovered? He goes, I looked. I was on my hands and knees for hours. I don't know what happened. He was devastated. Talking about it like 40 years later, he was devastated. So inconvenient. God damn.

So he takes the other one to a lab at NASA. And the initial findings are astronomical. Like, he's blown away. And he's like, oh my god, and then they're gone. And he's like, well, what do you mean they're gone? Well, we had to destroy him in the process of, you know, so he was like, somebody stepped in, whatever. He said, my biggest regret was I trusted that, you know. Anyway, so that's, so I heard about that, but I didn't cover it in the film. So I'm in the field. I'm in Socorro, New Mexico, and I'm interviewing his coworker. Now, his coworker worked out the dump site. Now, Lonnie Zamora

was a police officer, but because of the attention and the ridicule that he got, it was putting too much pressure on him, the town, his position as a police officer. Oh, you're the guy that, you know, sees, oh, I was speeding. Oh yeah. Coming from the guy who sees little green men, like, you know, that kind of thing. So he quit his job and he got to quit being a police officer. He got a job working at the dump site and he wanted to be at the dump site because he was away from everybody else. He didn't have to see anybody else, talk to anybody else. And he worked with this guy who I have on camera. I have this, everything I'm about to tell you I have on camera, none of it's been released. So I'm here doing the interview, and I want to get his description of the beans, because

that was the aspect of the encounter that was so downplayed, because the Air Force wanted him to really, like, don't talk about the aliens that you saw, don't talk about the beans, that's much more difficult to explain anyway so i i this guy did not want to meet with me oh my gosh we found him and i took his wife mary out there we're like you know got her involved to call and you have a gun to her head yeah i got i got and she didn't want to meet with either the whole thing took a long time this is a type you get a lot of people to meet with she didn't want to meet with me either. The whole thing took a long time. This is a tight-knit community. You get a lot of people to meet with you who didn't want to meet with you. They did not want to get an outsider in this community.

I'm telling you, it took time. And I had people that worked with me on the inside that were, anyway, reluctantly, we managed to get him in his yard to go on camera. He's talking about, he said, you know, James, he said, I worked with Lonnie, what was it, 28 years, 30 years, 35 years, a long time, ever since he left the police force in 1964. And I think he retired in like 2003 or something like this. And he died in 2008. So

he said, I never talked to him about the alien encounter and at the end of 30 years or 28 years whatever it was whatever period he was he was at the uh the dump site uh lonnie came to him when he was retiring he said you offered me an opportunity i'm so grateful i want to thank you so much for the employment and this and i got to to work here and his buddy goes, yeah, I just would like one thing. And Lonnie knew immediately what he was talking about. He goes, okay, I'll tell you. So then he tells him. And of course, he shared that with me.

So in the process of this, he said, oh, yeah, real nonchalant. Oh, yeah, Lonnie still has metal shavings I said what he goes oh yeah Lonnie Lonnie said he had the metal shavings I said uh metal shavings and I immediately thought of Ray Stanford at the site who found metal shavings himself and Lonnie I don't know how much detail you guys want me to go into here, but Lonnie of it. Okay, so so Lonnie Ray Stanford and dr. Jalen Hynek are out at the site maybe about a week a few days after it happened. And Dr. Hynek was a debunker

at this point. Now, this was a case that was a turning point for him individually, right? But still he's working with the Air Force. So he's like, they're trying to get him to downplay, they're interrogating Lonnie about the beans, what they look like, but publicly they're talking about clothes sheets hanging on a clothesline, just some complete nonsense. So Ray doesn't trust Dr. Hynek. Ray's independent. I think, I'm not sure which organization he was with at the time, but it was a private organization. So Ray is investigating the case, and Dr. Hynek is investigating the case.

They're out there at the site. It was dusk, and Lonnie points out the fact that, hey, you might want to, there's some kind of things down here, and sees that there are metal shavings, and Hynek somehow doesn't pick up on this, and he leaves, and Ray goes back later with a flashlight, and he gets these metal shavings either with a flashlight that night or the very i'm sure he went with a flashlight that night so he gets these metal shavings so i'm thinking back this guy so lonnie is the one that pointed this out so lonnie probably kept some of the metal shavings himself okay that's what he said and you made it sound like when you were hearing this, he was still alive.

He wasn't. Lonnie was dead, unfortunately. He was already... Okay, because it sounded different when you said I was confused, because I thought you said he was dead and you didn't get the interview. Well, what happened was that Lonnie gave the account to his co-worker at the dump site at the end of his career there. Right. And the guy said, the only thing I want out of it is your alien story, right? So he gives him the story and then he says, by the way, I still have some metal,

some shavings from the landing gear. Right. So I'm like, oh my gosh, this is why on earth would this guy make this up? It makes sense. It corresponds to Ray's story and the metal shavings. So I go back to Mary's house, Lon in the metal shavings so i go back to mary's house lonnie's wife who's obviously still alive and i said mary um how did lonnie die oh it was really

sudden he wasn't feeling well and he he sat down on the bed and i I went and got him a glass of water. I came back. He was gone. So I said to myself, okay. How old was he? Don't know. He would have... I don't know. He wasn't like 85. No, no. He wasn't elderly.

If I had to guess, I would say he was in his 70s, but I'm not sure. Okay. In any case, he was like probably 33 or something in 64 or so, and he died in 2008. Maybe he was younger than that. I'm not sure. Anyway, getting back to the story. So, I tell Mary, Mary, I think there might be artifacts from a UFO in your house.

And she said, what do you mean? And I told her the story. I said, look, I heard about it from this guy, I heard about it from that guy. Well, Lonnie always said that Ray Stanford wrote the book on the case. He's the only one that got it right. And in the book, Ray talks about these metal shavings. Now the guy that your husband worked with for 20, 30 years at the dump site is saying the same thing that Lonnie told him directly.

Why on earth would this guy make that up? This guy did not come looking for me. I tracked him down and with the help of his family, begged and pleaded, and ultimately got him to go on camera. And he goes, oh yeah, Lonnie told me about these metal shavings. I said, well, what did he say he was gonna do with these metal shavings?

He said, nothing, just gonna keep them. Not gonna show them to anybody, just gonna keep them. So all those metal shavings are back in the house. He told his coworker that he had them. So I rented Mary's house, and Mary was probably in her 80s. I said, Mary, I'd like to take your house over for a couple of weeks if you don't mind. And she's like, well, what's going on? And I told her.

Get the fuck out. Yeah, we potentially got some metal shavings in there. And there was like garages and little outhouses and like, you know, lots of little apartments. Dude, I took the ceiling compartments apart. I took the floors. I mean, I got a couple of people and I tore that place. He had this one area. Did she let you do this?

She did. I turned that place upside down looking for these metal shavings. Nothing. What I did find was a black duffel bag of letters. And most of them were open. Some of them were unopened. Most of them were open but never replied to. And I'm talking, dude, it was a big bag of letters.

And this is from the 60s and 70s and 80s. And these letters, in some cases, had references to photographs that were taken. You know, please find and close these letters. And I found these letters and I was like, these are like... God, Lonnie didn't respond to any of these people.

He had this big black duffel bag filled with letters. Well, I featured some of them. I was going to say, you read these, right? I did a couple. Just a couple of them. There were hundreds. On the documentary. And there were people, and Lonnie would open them up and he kept newspaper

clippings. He kept letters from all the people he got. He never responded to any of them. He never went on the speaking tour. He was invited to England. He was invited all over the place. Made no money on it. Made no money on it. Never wanted to really... He did just a couple of interviews. That was it. And he really downplayed later on in life really downplayed and i also talked to this guy paul harden who was the local reporter in 2008 in in socorro new mexico and

paul for the records wanted to do one final interview with with lani zamora he was getting on in age just for the record. And Lonnie said, don't ask me about the creatures. He said, okay. And so he did the interview. So that aspect, again, was downplayed. And so Lonnie rarely talked about the beans. There was probably about an hour where that aspect of the encounter came out before Richard Holder arrived on the scene and before Project Blue Book and the FBI all got involved. And so, uh, um, yeah, so, uh, um,

so I turned her house upside down. And you get all... And I find the letters, I find the very, uh, handcuffs that he had with him that he was wearing that during the encounter, which I actually... He's wearing handcuffs? Which I got those handcuffs of Mary gave them to me we sure he wasn't on mushrooms he was on duty in uniform so I'm has never stopped before I'm just saying and there was physical evidence that corresponded

directly with the eyewitness testimony is one of the best cases part of project blue book files it was one of the best cases, part of Project Blue Book files. It was one of the best, most well-documented close encounters of the third kind in U.S. history. Yeah. So I turned her house upside down. Couldn't get it. Couldn't get the metal shavings. There were small shavings.

It could have been anywhere. I remember I was in the shop. I was in the shop, and there was so many things and places it could have been. He could have had it buried out in the shop I was in the shop and there was so many things and places it could have been he could have had it buried out in the yard I don't know and I was like

God if I could have if I could have just if I could have just interviewed him while he was still alive I might have gotten those and that

you know what I where your head goes when you watch when you watch any interview that you do or other people do with people who have supposedly

seen UFOs or seen aliens. Everyone's looking for the catch, like the, oh, we're going to find out they're crazy or we're going to find out they're monetizing this whole thing or something. And of course, when you hear someone did monetize it, immediately go, okay, we like that. But I do wonder sometimes if not not even drug related like i joke about but just in

general like if people kind of leave themselves for a minute and really convince themselves that they saw something because what we do have to say here and this is this doesn't have to do with aliens this has to do with just human nature and psychological fact one of the most difficult and controversial things in the justice system for example is eyewitness testimony because there are people who won't get up there and lie but they will not tell the truth because they think they saw something where it was re-anchored in their head that they saw it this way we even see it in interrogations where cops make someone believe they actually did a crime when they didn't there's there's a weird loop that happens with people where you know we say something to ourselves or like think we saw something but weren't sure and maybe we never did

and i would say once again like i pointed out earlier when you hear all these people from all these different places over all these years pre-internet describing and drawing the same thing that's where it starts to go okay there's something to that it's not like you know the person australia in 1966 is talking with the kittens bobway in 94 or something like that or are they i don't know but with some of the people you talk to maybe the ones who don't draw out exactly what they saw or who you didn't – who you only got to review archives. Maybe you didn't even talk to them. Do you ever find yourself wondering if this person was just looking for meaning in their life and – or they actually think they saw something, but they really didn't. It might have been like a fucking shooting star or something like that. A couple things. One, the better the witness witness the less likely they are to want to come

forward i go after witnesses very very seldomly any witness approached me when i go after a case i will track witnesses down and sometimes it takes years years to get them to come forward with moment of contact some of those witnesses that we got, we massaged those witnesses for 15 years, 10 years, 5 years, 7 years. Well, they're... I like fucking with people. We have fun. Yeah. More, you know... Happy endings and everything?

Hey, whatever we're willing to do in our relentless pursuit of truth here. No, but my point is, is that the better the witness, the less likely they are to want to come forward willingly. Yeah. Okay? Two. Good point. We're dealing with one of two things, and this is just the bottom line.

There's no question that there are these objects of unknown origin whizzing around, incredibly well-documented, photographed, radar, visual, all the above. Everything except have your hands on it. You got photographic evidence. You got radar evidence. You got visual evidence, multiple eyewitness testimony, broad daylight, blah, blah, blah. Taking it back to the 40s. Some say a lot further than that. But anyway, modern-day UFO waves.

Those are real. They display a technology that is light years advanced from anything that we even have today. They've got no wings, no tail, no visible means of propulsion. They have the ability to hover, to accelerate from the standstill, to out of sight in the blink of an eye, right angle turns at high speed. They don't make a sonic boom. They don't make any wake, air disturbance, and almost no noise. Sometimes we'll report like a slight humming or a buzzing. That's it. So there are two options. One, we're not alone. Or two, someone, some foreign power or the United States has been in possession of revolutionary technology. Light years advanced from what we see today for over 75 years. So, Russia, China. Now, what seems more likely? That we're not alone or that someone's been in

possession of this technology? And if you look back at the historical records, and we show some of that in the phenomenon, this stuff. And then of course, you've got the aspects that's not even mentioned in all today's reports that are going on, that the United States Air Force categorized the three different types of sightings. Yeah, like you laid out. Yeah, close encounter of the third kind. Beings associated, well, guess what? If there are beings associated and they don't look like us with a craft that's displaying

this kind of technology, plus you got the beings that don't look anything human-like, that's a pretty good indication that we're not alone, right? So it's one of the other so two two things here i want to get your thoughts on these first is i am at a point and really alessi here is responsible for getting me really into aliens when he went and did the stuff with you and was telling me all about it i'd always like thought about it but never i was never one of these guys i was a big youtube documentary guy not on aliens right and now i'm i'm thinking about it a lot more and it actually maybe there's a part of it that's like

there's an explanation for some things now in my head and i wonder if that's what it is and so i'm i'm all in on it but you look at at how people have gotten to this point with you know putting all these sightings together like you did and trying to to figure out what's behind it to the people that immediately dismiss all this even after hearing some of it if they have the one thing i'd say is i actually think it's kind of narcissistic for us on earth as humankind to actually think that out in the galaxy that we do not know how big it is it could be endless like literally endless it could be simulations whatever to think that we are the only intelligent life form i'm not talking about you know the nine planets and stuff in our solar system i'm talking all the way through the whole galaxy to think that

we are the only intelligent life form that's ever existed in our very short human history in the context of time right like a long life to us is 100 years that's nothing you know the humans have been around for there's arguments over that but not that long. It seems to me very selfish to assume that that could be true, especially given the fact you look at the exponential curve of technology and how we've developed it over time. And it's still, as of this moment, exponential. They say at some point that'll end, but who knows? Who knows when that is? Who's to say that other galaxies haven't figured out those theories of relativity the the speed of light the changing of time all these different things that we haven't to say nothing of these

Mysterious crafts that they allegedly have and the telepathy and the things like just look at simulate our own world Simulate that guy talking about having us elon musk on my wall talking about having us talk to each other with neural link without opening our mouths and how that could just be like the earliest you know moses in the bible type discovery that some fucking civilization had 10 billion years ago yeah it's crazy we're cyborgs already what do you mean it's like you know look at your phone basically all you gotta do is attach it we're already looking for... But let me say... And I'll get to the second thing, but I want you to respond to this first.

Yeah, so you think about it this way. Nobody thinks we're alone in the universe. That's long... I could find you a few people. Oh, yeah. Well, the vast majority of the scientific community all confirm there's a consensus. There's no way we could be possibly alone. The likelihood or probability of other life look we exist

out there is just a 100 yes that's pretty much that's the overwhelming majority of scientific perspective views whatever the question is is it coming here and then I hear people like Neil deGrasse Tyson, which I have tremendous respect for. Took the words out of my mouth. I hear him talk about this and I'm like, you're one of the brightest people I... But you are being really stupid when it comes to this whole thing.

He's like, why would they be interested in us? Or something. But you have to ask yourself, okay, let's just say, let's just suspend judgment and all imagine for a moment that there was a highly advanced extraterrestrial

race or whatever. Again, this is hypothetical. Let's suspend judgment. What if Earth was under some sort of surveillance or observation? But overt contact wasn't made for whatever reason if Earth was under some sort of surveillance or observation, okay? But overt contact wasn't made for whatever reason.

I don't know. One can speculate until you're blue in the face, but whatever. So we're under some sort of observation by a highly advanced extraterrestrial civilization, okay? What evidence might we have of that if it were true? Possibly maybe some photographic maybe so periodically people get people see it they slip up who knows you know photograph it maybe they pick it up on radar as our technology advances over the last 75 years more radar data more sensors more abilities to pick these things up the fact that maybe we are under someone's watch. I'm just saying, if it were true, and if that were, what evidence might we have?

Well, guess what? We have all of that evidence. That's irrefutable. I mean, the Air Force even admits it. Even now, the intelligence community telling that UFOs are real, we just don't know what they are. Well, you hear the same stories. That's why I start off in the phenomenon with an encounter with a flying saucer back in 1955 by a colonel in the United States Air Force.

What was his name again? Colonel William T. Coleman. Yeah. I rented a B-25 bomber, a World War II bomber for that sighting, because it's so significant. And I juxtapose that encounter in 1955 with a pilot, with a World War II pilot, Air Force colonel, head of Project Blue Book for a while, upped against David Fravor in 2004, flying the state of the art Navy fighter jet, right? And you listen to the both of them talking about this observed technology, and the parallels are uncanny, okay?

How it, you know, appears here, boom, it's over there, takes off, blink of an eye, like... So this has been well documented, okay? Why don't they make themselves overtly known? Why don't they land on the White House lawn? Why? All they'd have to do is hover over the Macy's Day Parade. Guess what, guys? Game over. Tens of thousands of witnesses, cameras everywhere. They don't do that. They've done some pretty remarkable things. If you look at 1997, the Phoenix Lights, that craft was over a mile or two

miles across. I even interviewed the governor of Arizona. Fife Simonton saw it. It was witnessed by tens of thousands of people across the state of Arizona on March 13th, 1997, from about 5 o'clock to 7 o'clock in the evening. Everyone was out into the night sky trying to get a glimpse of the Hillbob Comet. That's a pretty bold move. They didn't land, but there were lots of people that I interviewed that watched this that looked like a floating city.

Wow. That was a mass sighting. Very compelling. That's probably one of the most bold or what's the word I'm looking for, you know, in terms of exposing themselves potentially. Overt. Overt attempts to, you know, in terms of exposing themselves potentially. Yeah, overt. Overt attempts to, you know, so... Who's to, by the way, who's to say that they don't have the ability to simulate what's going to happen and see it or, I don't know, see the future of what's going to happen and

therefore be able to know if they do something like even a little more overt that there will be enough doubt that no one will believe it or not enough people will have cameras out right when it's happening. I'll give you another example. This is a... I'm always fascinated by this. I just really... I think about it all the time.

Okay. I'm not really big on abduction, alleged abduction cases, okay? However, just because I haven't really, A, it seems like a slippery slope, what kind of evidence do we have? It won't take long to tell you Neutral's ingredients. Vodka, soda, natural flavors. So, what should we talk about?

No sugar added? Neutral. Refreshingly simple. Why do fintechs like Float choose Visa? As a more trusted, more secure payments network, Visa provides scale expertise and innovative payment solutions. Learn more at Visa.ca slash fintech. We just have eyewitness testimony. We don't have any, like, government data that I know of that could support these, you know, stories.

However, there are a handful of these reports, of these cases that I find incredibly compelling. One of which is Travis Walton. Okay. Tell people about this guy who aren't familiar with this story. Snowflake, Arizona, 1975, I believe it was 75. You can correct me on that one. Great mustache. Yeah, great mustache yeah great guys got a strong mustache yeah and they there was a bunch of lumberjacks out in out in snowflake Arizona they had they were under government contract they were

working late they were trying to get this job done there I think they were clearing trees for fire hazard stuff like that and they worked after hours and the Sun was down and they were like on a dirt road It was one of those trucks that had four doors That they had seven people in the truck. I think it was like three in the front four in the back and they see what they thought initially was a fire and They were like, damn those are gonna fire is a really bright light There's a movie made about it by a guy named Tracy Torme. I think he wrote it and produced it and directed it.

No, he didn't direct it. Fire in the Sky? Fire in the Sky. And they see what they thought was a fire in the sky, and as they got closer, they realized it was no fire. It was this. I talked to a lot of the witnesses. One of the witnesses said to me, and it was not Travis.

Travis will talk about it as well. He actually put it on a piece of paper. He scribbled it for me on a... All right, so I'll tell you. I'll get to that in a second. So he said, one of the witnesses said to me, and he was working at like a Walmart, and I went and interrupted him because I just had to talk to as many of the other witnesses. There were seven guys, and I think two or three of them have died since uh so i talked to him and he goes james have you have you ever seen like like a like a brand new corvette right

i'm like where is this going you ever seen like a brand it's brand new on the showroom floor i was like yeah it was better than that it was more perfect you know and then he's just describing the singing i could see it in his eyes he was reliving this experience like wow like carlos de salza at the crash site and moment of contact like you could just see it it's like their eyes are open but they're just like, he was reliving it. And he was like, it was like a brand new Corvette. You know, it was like, wow. So anyway, Travis, seven guys, Travis goes to get out of the truck and wants to run towards this thing.

It's lower than treetop. If it's right there, you get hit with a rock. And Travis jumps out of the truck. And all the guys were like, stop, Travis, what are you doing? Get back in the car. And Travis, he was like, I want to get closer to this thing. He's running towards it against the will of everybody in the truck. They're all screaming at him, like, the hell are you doing?

And it starts making a spooling up, like it's spooling up, like it's preparing to do something. It's like, like some kind of sound is spooling up. That's what they all said. Travis suddenly is getting, he thought that he was going to start running towards this thing and it was going to just take off. It didn't do that. It was making a spooling up sound where he was getting like uncomfortably close to this thing at which point it starts to make this spooling up sound travis gets cover behind a a fallen tree like a log on the ground he he he braces himself he gets down low and he's kind of hovering then he decides he's like holy shit this thing is doing something and like this and he, and they're screaming, get back over here, get over here. So he gets up from behind the log

to make a run for the truck and some kind of like force field hits him, knocks him like a raggedy and all. Dude, he flies like 60 feet back. He looks like a raggedy and all. His head? Don't know. We flew back backwards,

flew back like a raggedy and all, is how they described it. They hit the gas, the driver hits the gas pedal, leaves Travis for dead. Great friend. Yeah, I know. He's thinking, we're next. He hits the gas pedal. They get like, maybe a half a mile or a mile down the road, and they're screaming and arguing in the car. And the driver's like, I have got to go back. I cannot leave him out there I we have to go back. We're getting out. We're not gonna go back. You know, don't go back So he says well, I'm going back. I don't care what you guys do. You guys could stay here for all I care

I'm going back. So they all decided look we're better off sticking together. So let's stick together They stayed in the truck. They went back UFO gone Travis gone So now these guys are going down to the authorities, right? Six of them, because I guess there were seven in all. Travis is gone. Like to report an alien abduction? Exactly.

So they go down to the authorities, they tell them what happened. Stick them in the drum tank. Yeah, they tell them what happened, and they're all under pretty much suspicion of murder. So now it's a murder case. They killed... Oh, they went right there. Absolutely. So they get the dogs to go find the body.

They're like, you killed him. You buried him. We're all going to go find him. So they start this intensive manhunt. Excuse me. I don't know how many days it goes on for, but days. Travis, five days later, but days. Travis, five days later, six days later, reappears. He's on the outskirts of town. He's not where he was picked up. He's on the outskirts of town. Now, the reason why I'm telling you

this story is because this is something that intrigued me and puzzles me. And this, you look at what these, the phenomenon does, but you also look at what the phenomenon doesn't do. If they had dropped him off in downtown, well, back up. If they had dropped Travis off, and i've been there twice we're talking the middle of nowhere they would have dropped travis off where they picked him up he would have died he would never made it back alive why it's too far it's middle of nowhere freezing cold there's nothing out there there's not one person out there super not one person okay i've been there twice i'm speaking from being there. It's held in November in Arizona

He was in the middle of nowhere. Trust me. He would not have made it back. He was already weak Okay, so he gets dropped off on the outskirts of town now if they would have dropped him off where they picked him up He wouldn't he wouldn't have made it likelihood chances are he would not have made it. Okay I don't know how many days he'd been without food. He was weak and But he doesn't get dropped off in town, because if they dropped him off in town, the likelihood of them being seen, they would have exposed themselves.

They dropped him off in an area that was kind of down in a valley, came down, and the first thing that he remembers, he woke up, he was on the ground, and he looked up and he saw the craft taken off above him, and it was right near a phone booth and he makes the call and all the rest is history. But I always thought to myself, they cared about his wellbeing. Maybe it wasn't an abduction, maybe it was them. Maybe he got exposed to the force field of the propulsion of that craft

and that knocked him back like a raggedy end all and it stopped his heart they wanted to be like you good yeah so they took him aboard and they brought him back to life and then they dropped him off on the outskirts so maybe they accidentally hurt maybe he got too close and they didn't like shoot a ray beam and try to kill him because he doesn't remember fill me in on this again this was a while ago i heard his podcast a couple years ago he doesn't remember anything that happened up there he does remember about five minutes and what is what is he what does he say he saw uh he uh there's a movie about it called fire in the sky i talked about that earlier but but it's not accurate it's not unfortunately it's accurate up to the point

which he goes aboard the craft allegedly uh he wakes up on blurry-eyed on a stainless steel table. This is from his mouth to my ears. He wakes up on a stainless steel table and he's got these... It's blurry and he's on his back. And he's just... His eyes are blurry and he sees this like creatures, people, doesn't know what he's looking at. And he's slowly regaining his consciousness, and he sees these little quintessential alien beings, the greys, I guess the big almond-shaped eyes and big heads.

And he's absolutely terrified. He jumps up off the table. He's feeling weak. He grabs some kind of instrument or something that he has, and he's using it as a weapon. And he said he hit one of them as he swiped his hand away he said he couldn't believe how light it was like he he thought it would be more mass to it but it was kind of like in the gym yeah and uh and he took a very defensive very defensive stance against he was terrified and they left they left the room and they went to the right and he went he exited the room and he went to the right and he went he exited the room he went to the left and he said that if you can imagine like a

like the the it was a tunnel like a long corridor like a hallway But it was all one sheet of like a polished aluminum, but no rivets. No Welding seem all smooth like one all one piece and he said it was hard to breathe and that his shoulders were rubbing up against both sides of this thing. It was like, it was small and he was making his way through and he down this hallway and he looked off to the left and he saw an opening and he saw a chair in a big kind of empty room with all kinds of these controls on it. And I guess he sat in the

chair and he started pushing the buttons thinking, how can I get out of here? And all of a sudden, a big three-dimensional field appeared, star chart appeared, and things were moving around. And he thought, oh my God, maybe I'm on a spaceship and I'm gonna crash this thing. I don't know what I'm doing. And just then, two human-looking people walk in with these tight-fitting suits on, and they had glass bubbles over their faces. Human-looking.

Human-looking. They said they were perfect. It's not like the other. No, and he goes, thank God you're here to help me. Like, Jesus. And he's looking at these tight-fitting suits. How tall were they? Six feet, five, six feet.

I mean, they were human-looking, and he said they were perfectly beautiful. The men, they looked like they were, I don't know, 25, 30 years old men. Perfect. They were just gorgeous. A man and a woman. I said, you know, no question it was a woman.

And he was talking to them. Thank God you're here. Oh, my God, you're here to save me. And they didn't say anything to him. They didn't respond, didn't say anything to him they didn't respond and say anything and they took him and they took him out of the room and they escorted him down the hallway and then he came out by force or like uh you're coming with me yeah no didn't like you know no it was not non-negotiable. Took him out, and he said he came down like a ramp out of whatever he was in. Like if he was in a small spacecraft, he said that the small spacecraft was either in a hangar or it was in the belly of a massive.

And I said, what do you mean? He goes, well, there were lots of different sizes of landed disk-shaped UFOs. Some of them were smaller. Some of them were quite big. where there were lots of different sizes of landed disc-shaped UFOs. Some of them were smaller, some of them were quite big, and it was either a massive hangar, like massive hangar on a planet somewhere, or it was a massive hangar inside the belly of a big spaceship. He didn't know. He was just describing what he saw. And they escorted him out.

They walked him out. And then I think it was another one person that took a cloth or some kind of chemical thing and tried to put it over his... He said he put up a fight, tried to stop whatever they were doing. Put that cloth over and then... And he was trying to fight it. He was like, are they trying to kill me? What are they doing? He was trying to fight it because I was so weak and feeble. I couldn't defend myself. And then he woke up and the thing was taken off and five days had gone by. Are we sure he didn't die and he's kicking Muhammad or Jesus or some shit and they're like, send him back. Yeah, so all the guys go down into Snowflake, Arizona in 1970.

I think it's 75. I'm sorry, I don't have the exact date. It was 75. It was 75. November 5 it's 75. I'm sorry, I don't have the exact date. It was 75. It was 75. It was 75, okay. November 5th, 75. Okay, so, you know, and they tell the authorities, like, you know, and nobody believed them. Nobody believed them. Of course they didn't believe them.

I mean, it was 1975. So they all are under suspicion of homicide, and this is a homicide case, and they started an intensive manhunt for five days. They got dogs, helicopters. It's making world news, all this stuff, you know. And they all maintained that story, you know. Anyway. I swear, like, I swear I saw that. I remember that.

Rogan had him on, I think, shortly after he had you on. Rogan asked. But I must have been paying no attention, because someone that sounded new as hell to me when you were saying that. Rogan. I know, yeah, well, I did my eyes closed thing thing with with with him and i know him quite well and i went there twice to the to the takeoff to the site and you remember in moment of contact when we took the crash witness back to the site yeah remember how he behaves when he finds it oh it's we're going to get to that i saw the look on Travis Walton's face when we took him to that site for the first time in years, the way he got in.

I went with a whole National Geographic crew. It was a stupid TV show that I did. I have no one to blame but myself. Whatever. They were like, we're going to kind of dumb this down a little bit for a much younger audience. And I kind of went along with it. Whatever. That's another story altogether.

But in any case, I went to the site in the winter. It might have been November. But in any case, it was in the winter. There was snow. And Travis just got this, like, blinder on. And he was looking at the exact location where the UFO was. And you could yell at him all you want. And he was just running out there.

And Travis, like, ah, ah. And he was just, the trauma of it all. I could, wow. I was so impressed. Just so deeply moved by it. So you believe that he believes this, no matter what? Every single one of those guys i talked to all saw it happen you think they're going to go into town and tell

them their friend was abducted by a flying saucer yes like that's just no one in their right mind is going to believe that i could see i could see a few like 21 22 year old then it disappears for five days exhausted one of them hated him one of them actually got in a fight with him the other day. I'm pretty sure. Oh, yeah. They were at the actual site, and one of them was pissed off because he said something about his girlfriend or something. So one of them was dating him.

I think he was dating somebody's sister or something, yeah. But in any case, you know, yeah, they got – I know there were some disgruntled witnesses because Travis got all the attention. Travis is like, travels the world and goes to conferences and shares his story because it's a phenomenal story. I mean, you know, what I like about it is how many eyewitnesses there were. I like multiple eyewitness cases, those I find particularly of interest, because they all have to be lying, and then passing lie detector tests and maintaining the same story since 1975. I mean, it's, yeah, I don't even know if Hynek, I'm sure, commented, I don't know if Hynek investigated, I'm sure he must have, I don't know. Anyway. So, but yeah, again, getting back to what they

do, what they do. Obviously, if the story's true, they carried, they didn't put him back at the location in which they took him because he would have died, most likely. They didn't drop him off in the center of town because they would have

revealed themselves. But they cared enough about him to put him back where, deposited him just on the outskirts in a little, in an area that was like a little, like you could quickly get down below the site of, you know, the residential area, drop him off and shoot out of there.

And, you know, chances are you would remain unspotted, unseen. Yeah. I can't even. I think about that. Like, if that was true, too, like, if it is true, imagine living your whole life with that. Oh, believe me.

Well, you know, I think about, you know, you got a lot of UFO reports where, you know, oh, I saw this thing and it moved around, whatever. But when you have something that unambiguous when you have like a landing or a face-to-face alleged contact with these beans or a crash recovery like roswell or moment of contact Those are cases that there's no gray zone. It's either proof we're not alone, definitive proof, or it's a big hoax.

And in the case of like Roswell, for instance, everybody, 90% of the people that were involved with that cover-up at the time that announced it to the world publicly have all gone on the record on camera saying the weather balloon story was a hoax, it was just a cover story, what really crashed was none of this world.

And then you've got the moment of contact, it's the Roswell of Brazil, but that's more recent. You've got an entire town talking about one aspect or another of that story you'd have to get the whole town to make it up i mean you know really compelling stuff not impossible but again like we've been saying the more that you have it spread across all different types of people to say nothing a lot of people in one situation which is compelling and the more they corroborate it's like either there's some crazy intelligence mind fuck shit going on here and i remind your audience i fight so hard for so long 12 years on moment of contact 12 years going back and forth brazil where you find a witness you try to find find where they're living, and then try to persuade them to come forward.

They don't want anything to do with me. Yeah, they're scared. That changes your perspective because you're not getting someone out, hey, I saw this, come talk to me. It's like, no, you're finding them, and then you're trying to spend years persuading them, convincing them, this is going to be safe, this is going to be okay, we're going to take this story seriously, you're going to be in good hands,

you're going to be in good company, and the more exposure you have, the less likely the military is going to screw around with you. I'm just thinking of this because you say that, though, and this was something you've touched on today. I can't remember if you said this earlier, so I apologize if this was already said, but did David Fravor get approached or did he?

Well, it came out. It came out because of what Christopher Mellon did. Because of what Christopher Mellon did, yes. But then, like, people didn't know David Fravor's name. They just knew there was the Nimitz or something like that. Yeah. So did he approach somebody or did someone find him? The New York... Okay, so apparently internally, this story had been out internally, never officially

acknowledged or no evidence was released that I'm aware of. Now I don't know if... Well, I know that for sure that David Fravor's name in photograph, he participated in the New York Times article, because the New York Times, I spoke to the people that wrote that article. They said, you have no idea the level of due diligence that the New York Times did before they were willing to print that story. They wanted proof of everything. They wanted to talk to Senator Reid. They wanted documentation of the program existed.

They wanted the DOD to verify whether those graves were real. They wanted to talk the program existed. They wanted the DOD to verify whether those graves were real. They wanted to talk to the pilots. They wanted to, they, I mean, the writers that I spoke to, Ralph Blumenthal, Leslie Cain, Helen Cooper, they were like, you know, the level of, you know, cross-examination, just due diligence before they were willing to print that. It was on the front page. And you had said this too. Yes. Like you you had described it was the four guys at the nimitz what was the term you had it was the pilot and the it was oh we called him his wizzo i don't know wizzo it's the back seat passenger okay i didn't stop you asked what that was yeah that was because you had to look it up because that's what that's what david fravor he's my wizzo he's like me and

my wizzo and them and their wizzo so just just to go back to it though because you've you mentioned it you said it was the tic tac and it was moving and it was moving in incredible speeds but the thing that is covered you covering the phenomenon and david's talked about on a bunch of podcasts now is that i forget what the wording was maybe you'd remember alessi but he was like it didn't it didn't move with he used something he'd like some type of word he said it would move side to side and change direction yes like on a dime it wouldn't have to have any momentum slow just and he described it like going in a square or whatever and then you have the radar video of this which i think is on youtube so i'll put that in the corner of the screen yeah where you even see it leave the screen but how how big did he estimate it might have been um like exactly he said it was like the size of of of a of his

airplane okay or maybe a little smaller so it's far away from him but it's close enough that he can see it and he can see it on the radar and when you. And when you see the tic-tac-shaped object dart off to one side, the airplane is flying straight at it for quite some time, okay? And then it shoots off quickly off to one side. Now, David Fravor is so funny. I was talking to you earlier about you take the parallels between eyewitnesses, pilots in the 40s and 50s, and then you juxtapose them with David Fravor and some of the more recent sightings, that the observed technology is identical. They all just say, I didn't see any wings, I didn't see any tail, I didn't see any exhaust plumes,

I didn't see any heat signature, I didn't see any heat signature i didn't see any you know visible didn't make any sound like you know everybody said the same and then when it take off it was just gone it's just amazing you know and then you know you have so you have like how much evidence can you get if you can't get your hand on the actual craft all you can get is sensor data you get the radar you get the the the cockpit recordings you get the visual right i mean what else what else can you get if you can't catch the craft to prove that it's there yeah because because the the question there is that is that some unbelievable like technology that we don't have which goes to that question but also like going back to travis walton one is i don't i must have dozed off during that podcast i would remember that but you know cna he describes it different than everyone else

they're humans yes like what if that's one of the first ones he saw not the first ones were oh when he woke up on the table he woke he woke up on the table and freaked out, those were big heads, big, long-shaped eyes. All right, take that back. Yep. He saw those first, and then he saw these two. God, there's so much here, man. Isn't it crazy? How do you keep this straight?

Yeah, well, you know, here's the thing. There is so much bullshit out there. Obfuscation, okay? That's the word of this podcast. Because if you throw in a bunch of alien babies floating in incubators at Alpha Centauri, boy, that just gets the scientific community to just go, I'm not going anywhere near any of that bullshit. You have to wade through it to get to the core. I've said this a million times, and I've said this since I started this investigation, this journey of mine, that the vast majority of UFO reports from around the globe can and have been explained away in prosaic, conventional terms, okay? You know, weather balloons, misidentified aircraft,

lightning phenomena, whatever, right? However, there's a core 10 or 15% incredible, credible observers of incredible things. And those cases are the ones that I focus on. Everything else is just noise. Sure, UFOs can be weather balloons. Sure, whether they could be flocks of geese. Sure, they could be a super secret stealth military craft at Lockheed, whatever. Yes, all of the above. No question. The question is, are any of them proof that we're not alone? And I would say yes. In fact, most of the people in the military that I've talked to,

like I remember this one interview I did. It's so funny. I was like, well, talking to this military guy in England, what do you think it is like what are we he just went like that it comes from up there yeah and they've you know they'll tell you you know and that's another reason why I'm I'm I'm embarking on this new project this new film project because hold it hold don't say it yet we're we're we're we're gonna put that in here i want to do that for you okay but i gotta go to the bathroom this is this has been very interesting so far

i had said maybe 20 minutes ago or 15 minutes ago there were two things i was going to bring up and i wanted you to go through each of them you ended up going through the one i never got to the two i'm gonna for people out there i'm gonna table that second one because i i actually want to get to moment of contact now when i come back yeah and then we'll talk about that got it yeah all right it'll be perfect if you haven't liked and subscribed yet please do that share the episode around thank you to everyone who's been watching so far all right guys that is the conclusion of episode one of two with j Fox. You heard that correctly. One week after this video is uploaded, there will be another one.

So that will premiere the following Saturday at 930 a.m. And it is on a completely different topic. This episode covered the phenomenon and James's work around that documentary and UFO sightings in the 20th century and 21st century. Next week's episode is going to cover James's most recent documentary, Moment of Contact. We are going to have all kinds of exclusive clips in that episode. It was over three hours and it was the most in-depth discussion James has done on that documentary since it's been released. So can't wait to share that one with you guys. I also want to note, he forgot to get to the Harry Reid story in the backstory in this episode. At some point in the next conversation, he does cover that as an aside,

so you will hear that. And as I mentioned earlier in one of the cutaways of this episode, I am putting 15 minutes of my conversation with James on Patreon this week because it was in between the two episodes. It had nothing to do with either of them. So we're going to make that some exclusive content. And you guys can hit the link down in the description below to go join that page and join our $5 a month subscription for content just like that. Oh, one other thing. We are doing a Reddit page as well. There's a kid out in Minnesota who wants to start one.

So I told him to have at it. And it's called Julian Dory. That's the name of the subreddit. So I'll put that link down in the description. Hopefully we get it popping over there. That said, though, you know what it is it's called Julian Dory. That's the name of the subreddit. So I'll put that link down in the description. Hopefully we get it popping over there. That said though, you know what it is. I'm Julian Dory. Give it a thought. Get back to me. Peace.