Julian Dorey Podcast - 😔 [VIDEO] - Terminally-ill Black Ops Commander Ponders Death | Chris Cathers • #137

Starting point is 00:00:00 2019 September I was coming back from a trip from Milan with a client and it's probably like four to five months previously I had a little bit of a pain in my hip I was like ah that's nothing it's probably a sports injury I was doing jiu-jitsu every day I was like 230 pounds I was lifting all the time I was like really fit and I was like I probably tore something in my labrum because a lot of my friends from the early days in Iraq have been getting sick you know I got an MRI out-of out of pocket and the radiologist called me within a half an hour. He's like, hey, bro, I've been doing this 25 to 30 years.

Starting point is 00:00:29 I have never seen this before. You know, one night, John goes on the business trip. He goes to, I think it was so facts it's a special operation exhibition where defense companies come in in Amman Jordan and they showcase their wares for military groups from around the world it's very big show and this is 2011 it's 2010 okay so it was like May I think it was so he'd been over there for a day or two, and we had other guys in our company. It was called Indigent Armor. We had several people that I had worked with in the past, some from GRS, and we had some guys from the SEAL community, and they're all very reliable people.

Starting point is 00:01:44 So my phone rings about 3 o'clock in the morning and I pick it up and it was another business owner and he was, he patched around on it. I said, hey, what's going on, bro? It's like 3.30 in the morning. I knew it was bad. And he's like, you gotta hold on for the private equity guys.

Starting point is 00:02:03 They wanna be on the call. And I was like, what the fuck, dude? Like we've known each other for, you got to hold on for the private equity guys. They want to be on the call. And I was like, what the fuck, dude? Like, we've known each other for, you know, been overseas and all this stuff. What do you mean? Like, you call me at 3.30 in the morning. I want to know what's up. Because I just kind of knew. I knew.

Starting point is 00:02:17 And anyway, he comes on and he goes, yeah, John's dead. And I'm like, what the fuck do you mean he's dead? I just talked to him yesterday. And I didn't really put a lot of, because we had situations in the past where we had, I worked with a guy named Tex. That was his call sign. We all had call signs. And, you know, one time, I think I was working with him, I think, but somebody called back to Texas and to his wife and was like, hey, sorry, Texas is dead. Well, it turned out to be another Tex.

Starting point is 00:02:52 So our rat network is so fast that it's mind-blowing. And that's how information was relayed back in the day. It was kind of like there wasn't a – the official channels took forever. So you're always getting it from somebody that knows you. So I'm like, are you sure? Are you 100% that he's deceased, man? What happened? So, you know, what happened was he – long story short, he fell 40 feet to his death.

Starting point is 00:03:18 I mean, that's what happened. So I get the call, and he's like, yes. I said, well, I want – somebody needs to be by his side from now to when he gets back, we get his body back here. And I still was in a little bit of shock. So his, his wife, John lived up the street from me. In the U.S.? Yeah, he lived, I was living like Lake Wiley, South Carolina. So his, you know, him and his wife, they had two daughters

Starting point is 00:03:46 and his wife was nine months pregnant. They lived maybe two or three doors down. My CFO was in the neighborhood. Another general manager for our company was, and Ron was a little bit further away. He was maybe like 20 minutes from me. So I said, Hey, but you know, I called my buddy, Ron. I said, Hey bro hey bro we gotta we gotta notify next ken me and jackie and it's gonna suck i was like can you come to the house so he was there straight away and we waited from probably like 4 30 in the morning to try to like you know we didn't even talk about what we're gonna say and i was like i've been in some bad situations with this kind of stuff but this was the hit one hit really close say. And I was like, fuck, I've been in some bad situations with this

Starting point is 00:04:25 kind of stuff, but this was the hit one hit really close to him. Cause he was like my partner in Iraq. He was only 32. We thought those days were done. And we just been working in the trenches, like, like trying to build a business from scratch and just working our tails off to make it successful. And we finally got to the deal and it was like, not, I think it was like a week or two. It was pretty soon after the deal was struck. I mean, he's gone and he's like, you know, my boss, um, as well. So we all walk up, it was me and my ex-wife and Ron, I mean, knock on the door. And it was one of the worst things that I've ever had to do.

Starting point is 00:05:05 And I've had to do some pretty horrible things in my life. But, yeah, his wife, you know, his daughters answered the door. It's like 6 a.m. Sun's barely up. And his two daughters, you know, they're all super cute, man. And they answered the door. And, like, Riley, the younger one the younger one was like yeah daddy's out making money i was like oh my goodness you're killing me dude and she comes down the stairs so one of us

Starting point is 00:05:34 whisked two kids into the kitchen and she just looked at me man and she just came out of the shower i think she had like a robe on and a towel and she just saw me my ex-wife and uh ron and she just fell to her knees and this whale dude like the worst sound i've ever heard in my life and it took me yeah that was when the wheels started coming off the bus because i had to go from there briefing my buddy john who passed away on a work trip to go to our company and make sure everybody you know tell everybody everything's gonna be good to go you know like be the rock at work so it was a series of unfortunate events like this is kind of like the reason i emphasize this part of my story is it was like the catalyst for dealing with you know a decade of pts and other things

Starting point is 00:06:27 i believe this is probably the catalyst of what set things in motion that i didn't realize until really about a year ago if that i have to really dive and into my own demons and things like that so after i briefed his wife go back to the the company, our main thing was like, how do we get his body back? So we picked his body up, you know, had a military escort, great service and everything. But that was another like bit of trauma was just like, you know, we had to pick his body. What's better than a well-marbled ribeye sizzling on the barbecue? A well-marbled ribeye sizzling on the barbecue that was carefully selected by an Instacart shopper and delivered to your door. A well-marbled ribeye you ordered without even leaving the kiddie pool. Whatever groceries your summer calls for, Instacart has you covered.

Starting point is 00:07:19 Download the Instacart app and enjoy $0 delivery fees on your first three orders. Service fees, exclusions, and terms apply. Instacart. Groceries that over-deliver. Get up in this casket. It was made of wood and a Suburban. I drove with Ron again and John's father. And the story was still at the time he fell 40 feet. What did they say? Well, I'll get into that kind of on the latter part but like as we're driving back you know we pick it up they have the color guard we're like literally

Starting point is 00:07:53 just picking this wooden gray wooden box just throwing in our suburban and then it's that one that wanted to to have closure and he wanted to get eyes on. Like, he's like, I want to open his casket. I was like, oh, my goodness, dude. It's been a week, bro. He's embalmed overseas, and he fell 40 feet. It was just like I can't emphasize how crazy my life was for about a year or two. It was just utter chaos. So we're crowbarring it open, do all this, and, you know, i've seen a lot of death and um but i mean i just saw him like

Starting point is 00:08:29 a couple days previously you know it's just wild and uh so is that we went through the casket and there's a casket inside the casket and then i was like i had to tell his wife whether or not she should view his body and i was like well he fell 40 feet and it's not a good way to remember but everybody so i i told her this and then the next day his body turned black so he could she couldn't get closure and i felt like a heel and then you know i had his his you know yearn with his ashes in my on my nightstand every night for like six months, because his wife couldn't deal with it at the time. And I didn't think it was impacting me at all at the time. I was just kind of focused, like task oriented. Right. And, you know, basically where all this led was I worked for the company for eight months. And when we got him back,

Starting point is 00:09:24 had a great funeral, got his family squared away. We said, look, we want to make sure his wife is taken care of financially. So we all had really good life insurance policies. And I can't get into any of the specifics. People can read between the lines, however they like. So basically, he had a very large life insurance policy. And we all had the same. It was stapled to his employment agreement. And we just wanted to make sure she was good she had one kid on the way to you know nine months pregnant and you know to take care of and um so long story short the uh you know everybody said yeah no he's gonna get taken care of. Don't worry about it.

Starting point is 00:10:06 But I could quickly understand. I got the sense that, um, there was going to be something going on with the life insurance policy since we just got acquired. We didn't know these outsiders, you know? So I worked for eight months and I'd be like, Hey, we're going to, is she going to get the life insurance payment? Where are we at? And they wouldn't answer me, like not direct. How could you not get it though? Well, they were like, well, there's some – I don't want to get into all the details.

Starting point is 00:10:37 There was a gray area. There was like kind of a slight gray area, but it was totally manageable. And anyway, I waited for eight months and I would go, Hey, where are we at? And I kind of knew I have a really good gut when it comes to this kind of stuff. And I said, where are we at with taking care of his state and his wife? And it came about eight months. It was like the December of 2010 2010 i just was i was drinking all the time trying to manage the company was there for the birth of his kid you know and dealing with this fallout and i said man i had enough dude call new york and tell him i want to ultimate him you know i want to know what you guys are going to do and they said yeah tell his wife to sue us so she did

Starting point is 00:11:22 she did and i resigned that day on the spot with no exit strategy because I knew it was coming, which I think it was a bit of a moral injury to me having to work for. And I couldn't tell any of the other employees because these guys were loyal as hell. They would have quit. But they had no exit strategy. That was my decision. I just couldn't work ethically. I disagreed with things from an ethical viewpoint. You know, blood's thicker than water. And I wanted to, physically, I wanted to

Starting point is 00:11:54 murder people that, you know, I want to do really bad things to people. And I struggle with that too, because I was like, what would John do if I was in his position? He would have burnt this place to the fucking ground. He would have fucking murked everybody. And it just made me feel really like kind of trapped because I had to look out for my employees. And so I just left. And literally on the first year anniversary, my wife left me. And on literally the day of, she left me like... She left me like right after all this happened. So I resigned my position.

Starting point is 00:12:29 John's dead. I had to inform his wife. Then my wife decided, I'm going to move back to D.C. I'm in a 6,000 square foot home, you know, with no job. And I'm like, holy crap, this is a lot of stuff going on. So... Had you had like... Were there cracks in your marriage before that or? Well, I think I was so hyper-focused on other, like on John's situation.

Starting point is 00:12:54 Like I have no resentment because there was so much going on. It was all consuming. Like I would eat, sleep, you know, drink work and just to get through. So it was a super difficult because I wasn't prepared for it at all. I was like, oh man, one, I don't, I have no employer, you know, I've got responsibilities, financial responsibilities. I'd had no extra strategy because it was a moral and ethical decision that I had to do. And now this, and I'm like, holy shit. And it's gone,

Starting point is 00:13:28 you know? And so I'm in the house and that all that anxiety and stuff, like that's when my anxiety started ramping up after all that stuff happened, right? I started drinking and self medicating because that was the only time my anxiety got worse and worse and I got more withdrawn and uncomfortable around people. That's where it started with me is with other people. I wasn't comfortable in work settings. And then I had to go, I had the pressure of going and find another employer, which happened, but I took about six months off and I was just like Jim Morrison, dude, drinking like a half to a fifth but i was working out all the time too because when i would work out the only time my anxiety and depression would go away it was when i redlined myself and like meaning to the brink of exhaustion like just

Starting point is 00:14:20 redlining and one of one of the things i would do is an aerodyne bike because i was so fit the the more fit i got the more resistance i had to the work and so it wasn't an answer so then i started drinking yeah so i tried a healthy modality first i'm like maybe i gotta do two workouts a day three days you know i would do three a days um you also at the time technically at the time you technically don't know you're good you technically don't have a a purpose in the sense that you had obviously you're trying to take care of whatever you can with john's family but you had always had a very serious job for your entire adult life and this is the friend I mean like you said you're unemployed for six months yeah it felt like a survival situation really mmm like you know you go from having a purpose to like I just

Starting point is 00:15:13 got to survive like how am I gonna pay the bills well I gotta go find a job well how am I gonna find a job where I've got all this anxiety where I can't even be around people so I started taking bike it in Percocet and I was drinking every day and then I was taking Ambien because I couldn't even be around people. So I started taking Vicodin, Percocet. I was drinking every day. And then I was taking Ambien because I couldn't sleep. I had insomnia for about two years. And I still have problems sleeping now. But the only time I could go to sleep

Starting point is 00:15:35 is if I got blacked out, you know? Like, I would sleep for just maybe an hour or two and just wake up or... So I knew those weren't solutions, but that was the only way that i could function so it wasn't about the addictions weren't the issue it was an outlet to get you know the nonsense in my brain to subside even if it was briefly it was worth it like at the time so um yeah i dealt with that for like six months i was just a wreck it was super emotional hyper vigilant super angry oh so the hyper vigilance kicked in

Starting point is 00:16:15 yeah had you dealt with that at all or i had i've always had it like door locking and weird stuff like and people with just around people you're kind of at a height heightened it just felt like my my parasympathetic nervous system was firing fight or flight all day long 24 7 no shut off so now it's if i'm understanding this correctly it's bothering you now versus it hadn't been bothering you when it was present previously right and what's strange is when i got shot up or blown up or been like night near death experiences which i've had quite a few i never got i never had fight or flight like my instinct was always defaulting to training because we train train you know train to fight he just kind of was like autopilot it was like smooth there was no chaos in my head. It was just, there was chaos all around me, but I just felt like hyper-focused.

Starting point is 00:17:07 But this situation, this felt, didn't even make sense. I'm like, I'm not in a threat. There's no threat here. Like I'm by myself. I got to a point where I would sit in my house and sweat. Like when I say sweat, like I'd have to change my clothes three or four times a day, take two or three showers. It was the strangest thing. And I had to get a cooling blanket to sleep at night because I would soak through comforters.

Starting point is 00:17:31 Like, this happened up to, like, two years ago. And so I had to mask all this stuff to go perform work. And while I was successful— This is when you got into executive protection. Well, I left this company i still before this happened everything came to a head it was in 2011 so my wife left john's dead um i've got i i resigned had no exit strategy how am i gonna had all this pressure so i was self-medicating doing all the things that

Starting point is 00:18:07 you should not do um you know if you're depressed you shouldn't i tried to go to my my primary health primary health provider i said hey bro i couldn't tell him i'm suicidal because i had a top secret clearance i needed that for future employment i was afraid they're going to take my guns they're going to baker act me lock me up or they're going to take my guns they're going to baker act me lock me up or they're going to it's going to go on my record and the government's going to find out and they're going to freaking fire me i'll never be employable again okay i didn't know about all these resources i didn't even google search anything back then so i just was like hey i'm depr i know i'm i got anxiety it's crazy i'm depressed he didn't even ask me if i was suicidal but i wasn't going to tell him that because i was worried i got to work um i'm like

Starting point is 00:18:51 what can you do i was like crying like emotional it's like so crazy this guy probably thinks i'm so crazy which i probably was and so he gave me ambien he gave me xanax like all the drugs he just throws drugs at me so i'm like pills at the problem taking Yeah, I'm taking all that stuff on top of the other stuff I'm taking like it was left over or I can get my hands on and drinking so Hey guys got five quick things for you this week one Please share this episode around with your friends to as always

Starting point is 00:19:21 Please be sure to subscribe to youtube if you haven't already subscribed three please leave a like and comment on the video that is a huge huge help in the algorithm four over on spotify or apple please leave a five-star review that's a huge help over on those platforms and i appreciate everyone who has done that already and finally five the patreon is almost ready we are going to be launching in the next week or two. So please keep your eyes out as that is going to hopefully be a very, very good driver to be able to fund this show. Thank you. It was about 2011.

Starting point is 00:19:55 It had only been a month or two, a couple of months. I don't remember the date, but it was in about 2011. I decided to take my own life and that was my first time that I ever actually acted on it or that I can remember having suicidal ideation where I was like I just want to check out there's no I've tried everything I've tried working out three times a day tried drinking like medicating it's just not getting better it's only getting worse i don't understand what's going on so i put plastic up in my bathtub you know like a like a shower liner because i had a really nice bathroom and i'm a conscientious suicidal guy i don't want somebody to like ruin someone's day like hey this guy plastered his face all over on the ceiling that's what a dick so i put the plastic up and decided i was like

Starting point is 00:20:48 this is this is it dude i'm gonna i'm gonna end my life you know and i was probably about if i remember right it was in the morning probably around 10 and i'm sitting on my couch i had my pistol in my one hand and i said screw the plastic i'm just going to fucking do it in my living room. My back was to the door, and I had a fifth and the other kind of like Jim Morrison. I was drinking and trying to get the courage up to smoke myself. And I had it too. And it was probably, I didn't really reference this until about a year ago maybe that I'm aware of with with my buddy Ron

Starting point is 00:21:27 but somebody had called my buddy Ron and said hey man Chris is in a bad state and I don't even know how I was probably because I was drinking like every day all day and everyone knows I'm a workout freak and they're like well what are you doing and I think it was my old CFO who lived in my neighborhood. I'd go over there and just drink, you know, like he was working. I wasn't even working at that time. And so I have my pistol, one hand, fifth and the other. I'm fucking, I'm literally in the process of putting the gun in my mouth and my doorbell rings. And I'm like, who the fuck? Like I'm literally in the process of putting the gun in my mouth and my doorbell rings and I'm like, fuck, like I'm isolated. I have no friends. Everyone's gone. Ron was back in Tulsa, Oklahoma. John's dead. My wife left. I literally had nobody, nobody around. And I had John's wife. I'm not going to burden her with my garbage. He's got plenty

Starting point is 00:22:25 to deal with. So I'm like, do I get the doorbell or what? So I decided if I put my pistol down, I go to the door and I'm already like half in the bag. My buddy's like, Ron, Ron's standing at the door with bags in hand. I'm like, what the hell, dude? What are you doing here? He goes, you look like shit. I was he goes you look like shit i was like i feel like shit he goes well get dressed we're going out i said where are we going he's like the bar and we joke about it as being the worst intervention ever right i'm like dude i'm already drunk he's like well i don't care he didn't know what to do you know and he's just like but that day saved my freaking life dude 100 um that was my i i don't know if it was divine

Starting point is 00:23:06 intervention or i don't know it was the weirdest situation but he flew in from tulsa oklahoma to see didn't didn't let me know i had no idea he was coming if it would been maybe 15 minutes later i might have been dead i would have been dead um because i was committed and you didn't tell him this till a year ago you said yeah so what happened was a weird situation i went through this non-profit i linked up with through a buddy of mine uh andy lang who's in nashville tennessee he's a retired sf guy um from a fifth group he introduced me to these guys and you know they they basically pair veterans with songwriters they're suffering and they find that people if they're not willing to talk to a therapist they just talk to a

Starting point is 00:23:54 songwriter they take their experience whatever that might be difficult time they went through traumatic event and they'd make it into a song so i I was like, oh, I'm going to memorial Ron's friendship and like surprise him with this. I'm going to all get like, you know, Aaron Lewis to sing this thing. It's going to be rad. In my head, I'm thinking this is going to be fun and cool. I'm thanking him for, because it wasn't just this one event that Ron saved my life.

Starting point is 00:24:17 He saved my life. I had a gun in my mouth over a hundred times a year for 10 years. Like I was suicidal up to this year. The last time I have, it's probably January where I was like, you know, like the ideation finally I put in the work, but it took me 10 years to figure it out. So that's why I employ everyone or implore. I say, Hey, if you're a veteran that's struggling, go deal with it, dude. Like now don't

Starting point is 00:24:45 don't waste 10 years of your life like i did i was super productive i mean i had a great career somehow i grinded through it and i was resilient but don't wait freaking 10 years man like to deal with it because eventually you're gonna lose the only reason i got help i felt so much guilt and shame that ron had saved my ass for 10 years, calling him drunk at two in the morning. Like, Hey bro, you've been a good friend. Like I shoot him a text and he's like, what the hell? Like, so then he'll call me over and over again until he gets ahold of me or calls like my wife and I'm, you know, I'm at the brink. So I hadn't told them about the situation at this time. And I was like, man, they parted me up with a songwriter and she starts talking to me and we're filming it for my documentary.

Starting point is 00:25:34 It was like they had cameras on. And I'm like, it kind of jacked me up, you know, because I thought it was gonna be a fun thing in my head. And so I talked about this incident that i'm talking to you about in detail and it was like i had the it was the hardest thing i've had to do probably one of the hardest things i've ever had to do was to go out there and i basically surprised him you know i had the film crew up and i wanted to really thank him and i couldn't do it emotionally i couldn't write down the words i'm like how am i going to con like 12 years it's been 10 to 12 years of him being in my corner all the time so if i understand this correctly though you have it's a it's a professional

Starting point is 00:26:19 songwriter so someone who writes for major artists yeah comes to visit you and you're just sitting with them for hours and telling your story and i did a vtc and i did tell it like so she would just ask me questions but it was almost like a freaking therapy session man yeah and like completely two days later she sends me the first revision like written lyrics and song holy and i could only read two two lines and it jacked me up i've only listened to the song four times who ended up doing it well she did it was becca ray so she's her husband was actually an operator so i was like oh that's cool she's gonna kind of get the you know she's been through she probably heard crazy stories because this guy was you know been around and like the the songwriting process she

Starting point is 00:27:07 nailed the lyrics like i only changed like one thing when i did a red line on it it was like exactly everything i said but like in a song i was like this is crazy it was but it was super dark so i made ron read these lyrics like you know part of the documentary is my healing process was like yo dude i just want to appreciate you as a friend like you've been like how how the hell am i ever going to thank this guy enough like we've been through part of the documentary you're making yeah and i don't know you know but i slid this over to him and i was like i can't read it so i made him read it and he couldn't read it it was just like it's pretty powerful man i never believe give much i don't think it's for everybody but it forced me to to talk to him about stuff i didn't want to talk to him about

Starting point is 00:27:49 and i think that's part of the you know obviously that's part of the process you know you got to talk what i'm getting and what's pretty clear about this is is that you from my angle, obviously an enormous line in your sand was that year where you lose John, part of that family of issues, be it the anxiety you speak of and things like that. But do you think that because you kind of never turned it off, like you just didn't take a job again, that's how it ended? Once you were back from Israel, like you didn't take another one, you got right into the it's like you're boom boom boom boom boom boom you're kind of still in the fight and then the minute you're forced to have to step back leave the job your best friend's dead and then your wife leaves you and everything now having to deal with all that suddenly makes you have to relive the things you did and think about it in a new light and almost like in in a sick way like that self-fulfilling prophecy of now

Starting point is 00:29:14 making yourself face it and starting to to feel these things to get yourself to a point where you spend all these years struggling with almost nonchalantly and not that it's nonchalant but almost seemingly the way you describe it nonchalantly with like suicidal ideation yeah and what's weird about it is it for me i didn't realize till just recently last two years there was always a pattern so anxiety was 24 7 365 but when it got unmanageable for me from what i noticed about myself like reflecting was when it became unmanageable that would lead me into depression like a depressive state so i wasn't depressed all year round it was like a cycle and it continued on depending what was going on if i had downtime that's when

Starting point is 00:30:07 things like and i think that was why this was a catalyst not only did i have all these crazy things happen in a short period of time which probably like threw fuel on the fire with some post you know pre stuff um but it was like when i had that kind of the purpose was taken away, at least temporarily, and I couldn't get back in the fight like right away because I was trying to figure out which way is up. So I probably took about six months, and what I found, I continued to get these super stressful jobs where the world's on your shoulders, you got to work countless hours. And I think that was a

Starting point is 00:30:45 way subconsciously that I, I dove into work really hard. Like I ran another armored vehicle company for Jankle, um, Jankle Armoring, which is in Greenville, South Carolina. I did that for about five years. And then I had an opportunity to take me to where I'm at now in Atlanta to run a, it's more like it was a small $10 million company, but it was very important and strategic. We were about a half a billion dollar company at that time. It was called Beta Fence. And they brought me in to be a turnaround expert. So I knew it was going to be a shit show, you know, like the business that I was taking over was going to be a mom and pop situation. And they wanted to aggressively grow this thing. So I knew this was like, oh, that's right in my

Starting point is 00:31:30 wheelhouse, man. It's chaos. Like I got to manage chaos. So by managing other people's chaos, I was sidelining my stuff and not dealing with it, but it didn't really become a manageable, like I had a panic attacks at work and things like that. I just learned how to cope with those things. How would that come on? Like just out of nowhere completely? Initially it was like, it could be around, you know, the people that acquired our first company. I was like, oh man, these guys could fire me. You know, it's like, you don't know what their angle is. And I'm used to my boys and the brotherhood you know if somebody has a problem with you they're going to talk to you face to face they're not just going to cut your legs out

Starting point is 00:32:09 and then it got to where I was just briefing my own subordinates was not comfortable and I was like this is weird these guys work for me I'm their freaking boss like I'm the baller here like why why am I nervous and it got to a you know like i couldn't be around my own team and then i got to a point where i was uncomfortable by myself and i was like okay this is there's something going on man like this is not normal but it took me for a while it just took a long time for me to come to that realization like i would avoid a lot of social gatherings like that were important for work you know if we had a black tie or something i was like heaven forbid i have a speaking engagement i was like i stayed away

Starting point is 00:32:51 from that till this year so yeah it was a weird time so from when john you know like like like you mentioned that was kind of the catalyst i had all these crazy things happen at one point my buddy ron does great intervention and like saves me from committing suicide and then i was like but you said i just i'm sorry to cut you off but you mentioned that was what like 2012 something like that yeah 2011. so two yes so the that intervention happens 2011 but you still dealt with with looking at a gun yeah for 10 hundred times a year for 10 you probably wasn't 100 but a lot a lot whatever it was i i didn't really it sounds so silly but like you know diving into my own this situation like when you're doing that, I was asked by a therapist once and she's like, I finally did it.

Starting point is 00:33:51 Like, I finally agreed to go to a therapist after like 11 years. I think it was a year 11. And, uh, cause I was like, look, I'm going to end up doing this, man. I'm, I'm, she's like, well, how often are you drinking or on a substance when you've got a gun in your mouth i'm like every fucking time every fucking time she's like okay dummy like you can't be drinking you can't just not do that though i know and so what what she what we were kind of came to the conclusion was like well you know most suicides like over 80 percent of suicides or when people are typically on alcohol but something's in their system for me i didn't go i went cold turkey for a couple months

Starting point is 00:34:31 you know and i was like i'm never going to drink again and i'm like well i got to make sure that i enact discipline you know for me not everybody's the same some people have to go cold turkey and can never go drink another drop because they go off the rails. And for me, I might have one or two drinks with like socially, but then I'm like, all right, I'm not going to go drinking a fifth, you know, or a half a fifth. Like I know where the problems, I'm starting to figure it out. But the best thing to do is 100% abstinence, man, to stay away from freaking alcohol if you're depressed or even close to it you just got to like find a way not to drink and not to take substances they're gonna kind of make your lows lower but you so you at some point obviously you are talking to a psychiatrist and you weren't concerned about losing your you you lost the concern of losing your top secret whatever yeah what happened was i was um meaning you were

Starting point is 00:35:26 honest with her yeah in 2019 in september i was uh coming back from a trip from milan with a client i was protecting a like you know an individual um and we were over in milan and it's probably like i don't know four to five months previously i had a little bit of a pain in my hip. I was like, ah, it's nothing. It's probably a sports injury. I was doing jiu-jitsu every day. I was like 230 pounds. I was lifting all the time.

Starting point is 00:35:52 I was like really fit. And I was like, ah, I probably tore something in my labrum. So I came home from that trip, and it only happened intermittently. But because a lot of my friends from the early days in Iraq have been getting sick, I would, you know, they misdiagnosed me initially. I got an MRI out of pocket. The radiologist called me within a half an hour. He's like, Hey bro, I've been doing this 25 to 30 years. I don't even know what's wrong with you. I have never seen this before. And I was like, okay, that's bad. so i go in the hospital for five days long story short they misdiagnosed me they said oh you have a bone infection i stuck it you know they did

Starting point is 00:36:31 a fine needle aspiration into my hip into my femur they missed or didn't do it properly and they were worried about whatever probably you know malpractice So I got a second opinion. I went to this, shout out Dr. Raiapudi, and she's an infectious disease doctor. And I said, look, all my friends are getting sick. They're getting weird cancers and just weird diseases in general. So I want a second opinion. She goes, well, I'm going to send you to an ortho-oncologist. We're going to do, they're going to have to do a bone graft.

Starting point is 00:37:05 That was my first real procedure after that fine needle aspiration. What is that comprised of? So they went into my right hip to my femoral head where it sits up into your pelvis, like in your pelvic girdle, like where the ball sits into the joint. And they scraped the bone away. And then they patched it. And they said, said basically for six weeks you can't there's no load bearing i had to be on a walker and they said you know once that's healed up you'll be good to go week later they called me and i didn't think i was going to be

Starting point is 00:37:35 good to go anyway so and you meant i'm sorry you mentioned this i just want to make sure you you were at this point you're you're remarried, right? Yeah. You have a second wife. So I've been with my wife, Jen, for nine years. She's been putting up with me. So in the middle of all this, she's been there for you. That's amazing. Nine years, dude. On the mental health stuff, I try not to be a, I just kind of self-centered all this stuff. I try not to outwardly show it too much.

Starting point is 00:38:07 You know, I try to mask it as best I could. But obviously she knows when there's some bad things going on. Yeah, sure. So you get a call about this graft a week later. Yeah, so I actually called the doctor. It was literally a week after I just had a bone graft which is pretty gnarly i don't know like 15 staples my upper hip they're like you can't walk on it because it could break because my bone was so compromised um it was so eaten away that my femoral head was getting close

Starting point is 00:38:38 to snap and they said if you snapped it you've one it would be very painful two and i was leg pressing like a thousand pounds like i was doing these crazy workouts and jujitsu all the things you don't want to do when you have the compromised femur but uh so i called the doctor i said hey what about that uh that biopsy you guys did you guys were going to do a biopsy they're like oh you have cancer and that's how i just like that so matter of fact the pa on the phone she's like oh yeah you got cancer i'm sure you have questions i'm like uh yeah like what kind of cancer she's like oh it's super rare it's like what what you know less than one percent it was like super rare

Starting point is 00:39:17 you know it's like less than one percent of one percent of all cancers like less than one percent of one percent i can't even do the math so there's no like grave like oh my god you need to come in it's like yeah it's actually one percent of one percent she's like no and i'll tell you what this is gonna make it even funnier and fucked up so i'm like i called them she's like oh yeah you have cancer it's pretty advanced i was like oh pretty advanced so i'm gonna fucking die is that what you're saying she's like well no you're gonna need a bunch of you know uh surgeries so anyway i go into like i'm like okay kind of process i told my wife i wasn't surprised i was actually like yeah prepare for the worst hope for the best roll with it dude so i go to the same surgeon who did the first one he's like well now we got to take your femur out the work i just did

Starting point is 00:40:03 we're gonna we're gonna cut you we're gonna do about 150 staples from your pretty much your hip we're gonna remove your right uh hip your femur about three quarters of it then while i'm laying on the table they decided i needed to have some gluten quad come out which is not wasn't in the conversation until i was laying on the table i was like wait what like how much quad like that's important i like my butt cheek so it was december 3rd i had my uh right hip glute quad and femur taken out and they put something metal in there yeah so they replace it with titanium so when i go into the console i just had the the bone graph and i'm talking to the surgeon i said well what's the surgery like he's

Starting point is 00:40:51 like well let's call it a brutal and radical surgery and i'm like well you said it like that dude it sounds really bad he goes oh it's bad because i i made a joke i i shook his hand i said oh sorry man that's your money maker i don don't want to like bruise your very valuable hands. And he goes, dude, you should see this. It's like, this gave me the visual of like the Saw movies. He's like, there's nothing like dainty about what I'm about to do to you. Like he was so brutal. Like when he said brutal and radical, it was, man, I've had a lot of, I've had some serious injuries and this thing, I wouldn't wish it on my enemy, man. So they take out your entire femur and- Take your leg pretty much off. Like it's just, there's nothing. I mean, they take your leg out of the socket. They're using solzals.

Starting point is 00:41:40 I mean, it's, I wish I had a video of it. I'm glad you don't. But how's, like, how long did this take? I think it was like five hours. That's it? For that one, maybe six. Well, I mean, they're just like. Just hacking away.

Starting point is 00:41:55 And then they got to create, you know, they take your femur out and somehow, I don't know how they do all that with making your, they do it while you're under. Had your cancer metastasized to other areas at the time so the belief is now so last summer i had that surgery i had to learn how to walk again then i got MRSA jesus christ yeah dude how'd you get MRSA from the surgery because because it's a it's a such a big site i mean you're cutting you're filleting your whole quad yeah you know it's just so it only takes a little piece of something so i knew what you i've done jujitsu for a long time for a sport and um i knew what staff looked like in mercer thank god because i saw i had what does it look like it looks like a little you know? Usually it'll just look like a little bump.

Starting point is 00:42:45 It looks totally benign looking. You're like, oh, that's nothing, dude. So I had it on the very bottom of my incision where I had a drain. And, you know, I have a railroad track. It's like that long, you know? So this is one little red spot. So I told my wife, I said, hey, does this look like staff to you? She goes, man. So we circled it. I said, Hey, does this look like staff to you? She goes,

Starting point is 00:43:09 man. So we circled it. And I said, well, if it gets bigger by tomorrow. And that was the second time I almost lost my leg. Um, I went in the next day, it was on Monday and I went back to the infectious disease doctor, Dr. Raya Pudi again. And she saved my, my life again by starting me on dapto and all the antibiotic regimen. I did that for three months. I got needles in both arms for three months straight because I wanted to work out. So I'd pull these things out. You're thinking about working out this whole time. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:43:36 And then right the last week, dude, COVID hits. I'm in infectious disease. I'm having all this antibiotics pumped into my body my like third month and covid the the weirdness of covid sets and everyone's wearing masks and i'm like what is going on jesus so yeah anyway so last summer the first place that this cancer it's called conjure sarcoma it's a subset of sarcoma so sarcomas are less than one percent of all cancers conjure sarcoma it's a subset of sarcoma so sarcomas are less than 1% of all cancers conjure sarcoma is less than 1% of that so super rare it starts in your bone it's a slow grower you can have it for 10 years before it presents it just starts that eating things away so it kind of that's

Starting point is 00:44:19 why I think there's correlation but and you said not to get you too off track but you had said a bunch of your buddies were getting weird shit who were over there with you yeah and that's kind of what we i've had and they've all died there's only two of us now that are well three of us that i'm aware of that are sick that haven't died i'm sorry to hear that so it's kind of like but it's good in the sense of i've been trying to tell other people that have been in the same environments at the same time, hey, could be wrong, but just make sure you do your blood work every year, screening. And if you feel something coming on, like a pain that's unusual, just jump on it, man. It can happen so fast. It does. It does. it's unusual just jump on it man don't be don't you know happen so fast it does it does like what kinds of what kinds of things were you exposed to i mean i obviously i think a lot of people did

Starting point is 00:45:15 have a chance to hear recently because of the whole bill going on in washington about the burn pits and all that which basically like burning crazy trash waste and everything but like was it that was it other things as well like what i'm fairly i'm fairly convinced that it has to do with 03 and 04 being in the environment in iraq that's my just my gut never be proven one way or another probably but there was depleted uranium rounds and you know we're searching bunkers and tunnels the air quality is bad to begin with but then you're like you said there's burn pits i mean it's like the perfect storm for cancer like the radios the i mean this is so many different factors um that could come into

Starting point is 00:46:09 play so what specifically i have no idea but that environment was just you know prone to lung issues and cancers and all that nonsense brutal yeah but i would do it again i would you have such a good like no bullshit this is simple dealing what i got to deal with attitude about things and i know some of that's got to be you being strong on on the outside and being a human being on the inside i mean i guess you gotta achieve it to believe it or believe it to achieve it. I don't know. No, I mean, that's just my mindset now is I was asked on another podcast. A guy said, hey, bro, like if you didn't have if you weren't diagnosed with cancer, would you be doing what you're doing now? I said, no, I probably wouldn't be, man, because I'd probably be thinking of myself, which is kind of twisted because my life expectancy could be six months. I could be dead a year.

Starting point is 00:47:04 I'm definitely not going to live to be an old man. That's for sure. But I'm going to try. I'm going to try my damnedest. But he said, would you change it if you could? And I said, no, I wouldn't. I would take stage four right now because I'm helping through, you know, different ways. I'm helping either inspire, motivate, or hopefully encourage people with mental health issues, like, to start a dialogue. And I want to raise awareness. I want to de-stigmatize the whole topic of mental health, especially with men, because the way I was raised, men didn't talk about their feelings, and it was weakness and was weakness and perceived and you know I don't care about any of that I have the freedom now to say you know what if you don't like what I'm saying go do something else man but the people that are struggling that listen to me they

Starting point is 00:47:59 understand that I know about their struggles like I've been there man and there's not weakness for men to talk about their feelings, you know? And there was, you know— It means a lot coming from a guy like you, too, by the way. Like, it means something extra. Well, that's what—there's other guys that I've talked to that are legends, man. Like, legends, like, I have a cool career, and hopefully, you know, I can leverage that for helping other people, like, in the sense that they go, man, you've done some pretty cool stuff, and hopefully you know i can leverage that for helping other people like

Starting point is 00:48:25 in the sense that they go man you've done some pretty cool stuff and he's talking about it so maybe i'm not i'm not weak if i talk about it you know and i had two two people that were legends in the uh i don't want to drop their names because they're kind of private people but they had mental health issues and they're legends, man. Like dudes, like tier one guys, meaning like, you know, some of the best operators and, you know, 20, 30 year careers. But they opened up about their mental health issues to me. And I was like, man, maybe I'm not being a little bitch. You know what I mean?

Starting point is 00:49:01 Yeah. And it's not. It's like I watched this ufc fight just a couple months ago with patty the baddie i forget what his real name is and he had one of the most prolific i put it posted it right up on my instagram i watched that shit live man so he was weighing in for the fight and he got a call that his buddy committed suicide and he just went through a war that you know you know whatever a fight um and the shit that he said was just like man i'd rather have me make

Starting point is 00:49:37 crying on my shoulders than be going to his funeral in a couple days he's like there's a stigma out there that men can't talk he's like just talk to someone talk to anybody it was like one of the fucking coolest things man yeah i want to play this real quick and put it in the corner of the screen if you hear a skip though and it's not playing that's because it's copyrighted and i can't put it in here and you can look up the video it's called patty pimblitz powerful message after winning at ufc london and it's posted by espn on youtube but if we're staying on right now let me stick this in our ears and let's listen to It's called Paddy Pimblitt's Powerful Message After Winning at UFC London. It's posted by ESPN on YouTube. But if we're staying on right now, let me stick this in our ears and let's listen to this.

Starting point is 00:50:09 This was fucking awesome. I want to dedicate this fight to little baby Lee, little warrior. More of a fighter than any of us will ever be. But also, I woke up on Friday morning at 4am to a message that one of my friends back home had killed himself. This was five hours before

Starting point is 00:50:35 me weighing. So Ricky, lad, that's for you. But... APPLAUSE There's a stigma in this world that men can't talk listen

Starting point is 00:50:51 if you're a man and you've got weight on your shoulders and you think the only way you can solve this is by killing yourself please speak to someone speak to anyone people would rather I know I'd rather Please speak to someone. Speak to anyone. People would rather.

Starting point is 00:51:13 I know I'd rather we make a cry on my shoulder and go to his funeral next week. So please, let's get rid of this stigma and men start talking. Yeah, that's fucking awesome to hear that. Yeah, that one little... It's funny man like people that have a platform or the ability to reach a lot of people that's what it should be doing man he's not talking about his new benzo or you know hey i'm gonna go get this and you know my after parties at that like this is real man that at least that one clip as soon as i heard that i was like wow he freaking nailed it and i posted it up thousands of views man i was like yeah man because people know authentic when they hear it they do you know they do and i mean for you though it's like

Starting point is 00:51:58 you're you're leading by example but you're also leading through that struggle i i can't remember if we were talking right before the podcast began or if it was on the podcast so apologies if this is repeated from the beginning but you had said something to me like jokingly like you call yourself a professional sufferer yeah man and and you don't mean it in the sense that like oh look at my suffering look at my pain you look at it like you look at it like i'm a professional sufferer because i learned how to deal with this and and make the most out of it yeah no i joked about it like early when i just started doing this i was like i guess i'm a professional sufferer because when i condensed my story i'm like yeah i was an sf dude went work for oga and i went through a bunch of almost you know mental health for 10 years suffered and then i went through a bunch of shit, almost, you know, mental health for 10 years, suffered. And then I went through cancer surgery after cancer surgery.

Starting point is 00:52:47 You know, I've got like a single digit life expectancy for a very short period of time. And I don't look at my life with the bad stuff, though. I look at it like I was super successful. I don't know how. And I grinded through all the adversity. It's the only reason I'm still here. But I thought I was going successful. I don't know how, and I grinded through all the adversity. It's the only reason I'm still here. But I thought I was going to lose. That's what led me between my buddy Ron, wearing him out, feeling the guilt.

Starting point is 00:53:12 And then the second part was like, I needed a clear head. I was like, I'm going to end up doing this, man. There's so many times I've taken slack out of my, I have a Glock. And that's the only way i never left suicide notes and none of that i was just like i don't need an out you know and i'm like i'm gonna i'm talking a pound of pressure and i'm totally annihilated with the you know and i had a freaking end lives and i'm like i'm gonna fuck this up and you know one party like at those times i'm not thinking about like i don't really want to die.

Starting point is 00:53:46 I'm like, I definitely want to be out of here, dude. And I'm still fighting. There's a part of me in there that's like clawing and scratching to survive. Like, and I just knew that I would eventually lose it. I'd lose that fight. And I didn't want to do that to my buddy Rob. I didn't want to do it to my wife, our 18-year-old. Like, that's fucked. So when I have those moments of clarity, I'm like, I'm going to do that to my buddy Rob. I didn't want to do it to my wife, our 18-year-old.

Starting point is 00:54:05 Like, that's fucked. So when I have those moments of clarity, I'm like, I'm going to do something about it. And I'm going to, you know, I started doing therapy. I was only— It was about—it hasn't been two years, but close to it. It was right after I was diagnosed. When did the conversation happen? Because you explained a lot in there a few minutes ago with like the surgery and everything but when did when did you sit down not with the lady on the phone but with the what was her name again your doctor with

Starting point is 00:54:36 dr raya poody doctor i don't say wrong doctor like when did you sit down and have the conversation where she says to you, we're going to prolong your life as much as possible, but this is going to kill you? Yeah, the docs never come out with it, which is irritating because I'm like, you can tell I'm more like, hey, let's just rip the bandaid off. Tell me where we're at. And I'll adjust fire just fine. And that's how I've been living my life like i'll give you a snapshot of like insanity not for because you say the professional sufferer like i joke about it like some of the adversity in the last six months of my life right was one i was diagnosed with stage four cancer.

Starting point is 00:55:27 It's non-operable, non-treatable. I had my lung taken out a week before that, before I got the news, the official news. I knew since last summer that I was stage four because things presented in my lungs, but they had to do a biopsy and it was too dangerous. And then when they did a biopsy earlier in this year, they missed. So it didn't give us any clarity. Like you're like from a clinical perspective, I didn't have a diagnosis. There's not anything I could do about it. So I just had it in the back of my head. I'm like, yeah, you're fucking stage four, bitch. So you better buckle up because life's going to get real, real quick. so as soon as i had the um surgery they did a biopsy this is when september september 20th this year so it was only a couple months ago

Starting point is 00:56:14 and they're like all right dude number one you're stage four you're terminally ill you're going to die from this there's no treatment besides more and more surgeries to keep you alive and how much of your lung did they take out well they took out my lower right lobe so they told me about 20% of my lung capacity so it's actually not I don't notice a huge difference now it was like the first couple days I was like I was getting gas to walk 10 feet you know and I was like how far can I walk they're like far as you want i was like all right so the day i got out i got out of the hospital in two days they said it was gonna be five i walked two and a half miles the afternoon i got home and i just got after it dude you know i was like every day i was walking three miles a day or more and i it's a pain to walk for me like literally and figuratively with my my my hip it you know

Starting point is 00:57:06 i do it every day even though it causes a lot of pain but i know it's what i need to do because i don't want to be like some sad sack that's sitting around and going oh i've got cancer and i could and that's kind of the the weird thing with what i got in my mindset is people are like, why do you work out all the time? You're always in pain. Like yesterday I left the gym and I had a great workout, dude. I was like, I felt strong. What kind of workouts are you doing? Well, now I can't do functional fitness.

Starting point is 00:57:36 Like I've always been a functional fitness guy. I'm a big believer in like as a modality, it's one of the best things you can do so if you're gonna if you come into a situation in life fight or flight you gotta fight you know car wreck whatever your functional strength is where it's at and you're well rounded you have good cardio you got strength you've got fitness agility all those things well with the hip i i can't i can't i had to give up jujitsu in 2019 that was rough and i thought about going back but i'm like if i dislocate this i might lose my leg so i was like and i don't i don't have enough structure there it's very hip intensive so i just said all right i got to

Starting point is 00:58:18 readjust my goals so i was like i'm going to do training, which isn't the best from a health perspective. But I was like, I want to at least look and feel good. And I want to get after it and, you know, do everything I can do in the gym. So I do some functional fitness. I just started doing the Aerodyne bike again, one of my most dreaded enemies. I hate it. In 10 minutes, you can just blast yourself to your to death you know riding that bike but um yeah so i just do mostly strength you know i do five days a week i i lift it's all mostly

Starting point is 00:58:54 static say you're yoked yeah i'm just trying like and i i said babe the day i got home i told my wife i said man i want to put like 10 to 15 pounds back on man i want to like i want to look good like i want to keep stage four looking sexy man like wow you know because it makes me feel better even though i'm in pain all night i pay for it the next day i just feel better and i look better i feel like you know i don't know it's a good mental from a mental perspective the gym's always been my my therapy you know um best thing ever man you got to get after it man you know you got to take care of your mind there's different verticals in life you got a financial vertical you know you want to make sure you're financially well off you're not like living paycheck to paycheck ideally so you got to work on that get good mentors you know physical fitness

Starting point is 00:59:40 you got to work on that vertical as well from a health perspective you want to do you might have to self-rescue at some part of your life or protect somebody that can't protect themselves like get into fitness man if you feel like you know you want to lose weight or whatever your goal is just do it but then you know you have like the spiritual vertical i'm not exceptionally strong there i'm aware of it at least and i'm working on that you know there's all those types of things what do you mean you're not exceptionally strong there well i've never been i'm like a failed christian like i try you know religion like has been difficult for me especially with my experiences it's a little more challenging i think when you grow up like when my parents got divorced

Starting point is 01:00:21 i stopped going to church you know when i was six and after that it was kind of like you know it's kind of not not off the table but i wasn't i was six seven years old i'm not gonna beg to go to church right yeah it's like i don't want to be there i don't like wearing a suit yeah but um yeah it's just um i'm a very spiritual person but organized religion is what kind of dissuades me that's just a little there's when there's people involved yeah because i've seen the negative impacts of it and i shouldn't be dissuaded by it because i know there's probably a lot of christian people or whatever the their belief structure is going come on bro get your together and i'm working on it because if anybody need like when you are

Starting point is 01:01:06 facing death that's when all the you start really thinking giving yourself a hard think every now and then like hey man and for me maybe that's going to be the last minute you know you're sitting there going oh i hope i just didn't squander that opportunity you know what i mean i think i understand now because what i was gonna ask and a bit well i'll still ask it like you seem to associate directly spirituality with organized religion like one cannot exist without the other for the most part based on what you said and i'm not so sure that that's no fair at all yeah i'm kind of yourself it's just the people that dissuade me are usually the ones that are like the most vocal um

Starting point is 01:01:54 you know it's there's a lot of tenants and things like that just kind of has pushes me pushed me away from organized religion yeah it's just a little more uh because living in like jerusalem was a good example right you have the arabic population living next to the christians the armenians and the orthodox like they're all in this and then you have the jews like it's great they're all like physically fighting at times. But then if you bring up like Jesus, this is when I was like, if you bring up Jesus, it's like, how come the Church of the Holy Sepulchre is still there? And they're like, well, when the Muslims took over, they believe in Jesus was a prophet. And the Christians believe Jesus was Messiah.

Starting point is 01:02:51 The Jews believe he was a prophet prophet but he wasn't the messiah so but they all so there's all these intertwined interwoven things but they all believe they're 100 right on these little yes like you know the things that are i say small but they're huge implications but i'm like if i was born you know in another country I probably would be it could be Muslim I could be this and and it's like you're the product of the environment that you're born into that you don't get to choose but I mean I always say this I do think most people use organized religion for beautiful things and I think that's amazing and so when what i don't ever want to be is like a bachelor of people's beliefs and things like that i i think that's a terrible terrible thing i personally in my relationship like you know i grew up catholic and everything but like you know there's aspects of things that i've come to learn and know that

Starting point is 01:03:43 yeah i i think whatever it is whether it's 10 or 5 there's a small percentage of people in every organized religion that's ever existed all of them throughout human history that use it as a means for power or a grab at power or straight up awful evil salacious means and they they can ruin it for a lot of other people so my relationship isn't really there with it but like i keep this shit to myself it's not like i don't feel like it's my duty to tell other people how i look at things exactly if it happens organically great but i'm not going to go out of my way what i will say is that like i have my own type of constant spiritual

Starting point is 01:04:29 relationship with things that are going on and things that can't be explained that you know kind of give me like a decent zen and i do try to on my own time pay attention to that so when you're when like when i'm saying this you know not to like discount myself here, but like, you know, I'm a younger guy kind of going about knock on wood, like, you know, all things considered good life at a good time in human history right now. But you're somebody who's also a younger guy, but you're facing this impending end that you don't know the day it's going to be there. You may not even know the exact year, but it's staring at you down the barrel. And I can't relate to that because i've never had to deal with that and it's like to me what the way you're talking right now it strikes me like you are worried about not having some sort of hole filled with like the meaning of it all is that yeah yeah it's kind of well put you know because i always stay away from that conversation because it can be super off-putting like my beliefs are my beliefs and everybody else's beliefs like i'm kind of in the same wheelhouse

Starting point is 01:05:34 when it comes to such a hot button topic yes so it's like if whatever i say is going to be like either misconstrued or misrepresented because i don't really have a good way to to really like explain i just know that it's something that i'd like to work on better i don't think there'll be a solution for for me because of all my experiences and exposure it's just more of a personal relationship than you know something i'm not going to gravitate towards organized religion um you know per se i i don't it's the people man and i'll tell you one of the one of my biggest like man this is such a cringy subject i'll kind of transition off of this one but ron's been my like so he's executive director of a of a camp that for uh

Starting point is 01:06:27 it's a christian day camp and um he's been he actually married my wife and i he was i was like hey bro you're my spiritual guy he's a strong christian and i'm like man i want to be a strong christian i'm just i suck at it you know maybe i got to put more work into that vertical you know what i mean so i'm kind of like and i'm open to it but there's always somebody who's like super like fringy it's like sends me proverbs in the mail and i'm like okay dude too much that's too much for me man it might be where you're at i don't need to quote scripture to have a you know relationship you know what i mean yes yes i know exactly but do you feel that do you feel like a i hate to use this type of phrase here but like that ticking time bomb of pressure where it's like i don't know what if i you don't but i'm not gonna say that i've seen

Starting point is 01:07:18 people who have had time like my father my father died in 2017 I was by his side when he passed away. He was on hospice for a month. Super. What freaked me out about him is he's so strong. Like, he was 6'2". And I don't mean physically, I just mean, like, mentally. I didn't know what direction he'd be. He's always been, like, an A-type, you know? He's a cop and, you know... Growing up, it was kind of like...

Starting point is 01:07:43 It was interesting because seeing my own father being by his side, I carried him out of the house with a body bag with my little brother. I was like, I don't want no cryptkeeper doing this. My dad wanted to die in his house. He didn't want to be in a hospital. He didn't want to be in an nursing home. You carried him out of the house? Oh, yeah, dude.

Starting point is 01:07:57 And my dad wanted to be surrounded by his kids. And that's what we gave him. I said, 100%. So I resigned my last position before i got back into private security which that was my last career kind of last couple years i um i resigned and i went up there for a month and a half i think it was and it was a freaking great experience man i got to apologize to him for being like a shithead kid i was like man because what do you mean like are you serious you arrested me in high school like people think that's an interesting story and there

Starting point is 01:08:29 was like 20 more of those uh you know and so we had the closure but he pulled the plug on himself like a week prior to him like he was on hospice and they they gave him the option of no more food and drink because he had cancer. And it's similar to mine. He had lung cancer from smoking, but he actually started in his esophagus. And then it progressed to his lungs. So I know what this is going to look like, right? But in my head, I was always thinking, like, I wish I would have had that conversation, the philosophical, spiritual question.

Starting point is 01:09:04 Because he was kind of private like he grew up strong christian um when he's younger my grandmother was an elder in the church but you know that's between him and you know his maker you know like i wish i would have had that conversation because i would have liked to heard his perspective and maybe i't even change. But everybody's kind of curious, man. When the lights go out, is that it? Are you 100% sure? Do you know anybody who died and came back? Because I don't.

Starting point is 01:09:32 So there's always that little bit of like, you know, keep your house in order. And it's kind of lead me. I live by the same tenets. Like I am dedicating my life to helping other people right now. I was real worried you were going to say the ninth ancestral tenant don't let the and hey by the way the freaking liver king man he totally screwed up beards for dudes like he got it all crazy now i look like a homeless person i'm sorry i had to say that if i could get that jack from eating liver man i'd be eating it right now

Starting point is 01:10:04 yeah that was like a serious one i couldn't let that one kill me man but yeah so you were saying i'm sorry again but you were saying well these these specific tenants that aren't his tenants yeah and i think at the end of the day man where you need to focus on i'm a big preacher of pun intended you know you got to work on i just bring it up because i know there's other people that spend a lot more time in these different verticals right and i tell people i'm like hey man if you want to progress you got to make yourself uncomfortable i've made myself uncomfortable in that vertical man like i've been to all sorts of churches blow your mind and i probably need to focus more attention on it but right now it's just

Starting point is 01:10:47 i'm kind of comfortable with where i'm at you know what i mean which is weird are you or are you saying that no i i mean honestly i don't know i don't i don't know what uh what happens when the lights go out man but but when chris cathers isn't sitting in a podcast studio or a podcast studio when you're not sitting with your friends or with other people when you're alone in a room which you know you're a human being that happens every week obviously like you don't have some moments where you're asking questions like what what happens or like even like why me like what's what the is going on here I don't know man like it's kind of like aliens man there's some

Starting point is 01:11:30 people that believe in them and then there's some people that are like in the middle and then there's the the naysayers and um yeah I don't I don't think about it at all I'm not really worried about it because from my perspective i'm doing everything in my power like you know i've done some bad for sure but i've spent most of my life trying to like be a good human being whatever that means so like um dude i pull over old ladies on the side of the road it doesn't matter i don't care about any of it it's like if somebody needs help i'm usually that that dumb you know guy that's like hey i'll help you out you know oh it's 99 degrees i'll help you change your tire you know but um that's the best i can do is just lead the best

Starting point is 01:12:17 life that i can you know to be a good person and uh give back and put some good vibes out there in the world, you know? It's not for me to decide what happens to me, you know what I mean? Do you have tough days where the thoughts creep in where you're like, I just want to mail it in? You know, I don't want to fuck this working out, fuck this having to do all this shit. The inner bitch is what creeps in. Like, I don't think about any of that

Starting point is 01:12:46 i'm like i know what's gonna happen it's gonna be like it could be my whole life can go you know i'm just flowing like water to be honest with you like it's kind of like that bruce lee analogy you gotta like flow like water and there's a lot to be said with that because like what i was gonna tell you before is like in the last six months man i've never had biological children of my own my wife we found out she was like pregnant maybe about four or five six months ago and first of all we weren't trying to have kids we've been together nine years right now no no i did a marcus latrella on you i did that on him too by accident because so what happened was we found out she was pregnant and we knew she was high risk and the news in my head i'm like dude i'm like gonna be 49 years old stage four holy and then i was like she was all like she didn't know how

Starting point is 01:13:38 to handle this situation initially because it was we're both shocked it was like we did nothing different you know we were not trying to not have kids but we just didn't assume it wasn't ever going to be possible and lo and behold so i was like freaked out because what freaked me out more than that last conversation was the fact that i was like man i don't want to leave here with a kid to take care of by herself that's how she raised her son. She was raised as a single mom. It was super hard. She had him really young.

Starting point is 01:14:12 So that's been the back of her head. So I was like, go to her appointments. We get the sonogram. And two weeks later, man, she loses the baby. And I'm like, what the fuck? And that one really hit me hard because I couldn't do anything to take the pain away from her, you know. Like, she's still, like, February would be the due date coming up. And I was like, man. And, you know, then I was, like, diagnosed stage four.

Starting point is 01:14:33 I had my lung taken out. And then she has a cancer scare. She just had one. Like, she tested positive for the ****. Like, I hope I'm not violating her confidentiality. I can take that. But, you know know she has to have monitoring so we're like oh she might have to have surgery and all this stuff and that's like

Starting point is 01:14:51 i'm just hitting the surface bro of like the last six months through all that stuff the one that got me was you know the loss of a baby man was just, I didn't think it was going to like jack me up that much. But like, I just was like, look, dude, this is out of your control, man. Like, there was like two hours where I was just like, fuck. Like, what I don't like is that mentality that creeps in. I call it my inner bitch. Like, maybe I heard it on Rogan or something. But it's like, there's always these thoughts like, why me? Like, oh, you know, I've already had, I've lost my, you know, my femur, my leg, my hip, my glute, my quad, now my lung.

Starting point is 01:15:30 Now I'm stage four. I'm going to definitely die. Lost the baby. My wife, I might have cancer. That's a lot of shit for anybody. But it's what you do with that information at the end of the day that's relevant and you can just let like snap you or you can flow with it like kind of like like water you know it's like you can't let these situations dictate like happiness is a perception so i kind of learned like man yeah i have there's a couple hard days but honestly like doing what I'm doing right now

Starting point is 01:16:05 and overcoming like like I had the best mental health this year and it's because I put the work in for the last two years I've been putting the work in I go to therapy sessions every week I've tried different different things but I think the most helpful thing was me openly talking about all these situations like on podcasts on radio and dealing with all these situation has been like probably the most beneficial thing for me and not that everybody can do that but but you were still struggling i mean i'm just doing my timeline my head based on what you're saying so correct me if i'm wrong but you were struggling all the way up until this year so two years with with this disease still struggling with the mental health of suicide and stuff like that and and you're here you know it because to me again i can only look from the outside i don't understand right but i'm doing my best so that everyone

Starting point is 01:16:59 listening right now can try to learn something from this like you know i would think if i had struggled and held it off for so long while dealing with all this shit right you you're still feeling like shit all the time you're not happy you you may have some happy points in your life you got a great relationship things like that but there's a lot of things that demons that are driving you and then you get that that ticket whatever it is where it's like well this is going to end anyway and it's going to be painful when it does so why don't you know in your head it's like well why don't we finally just get on with it then and you didn't and you're here to spread good word to a lot of other people because of it i think that thought i've had that that train of thought so many times

Starting point is 01:17:41 of you know it was shortly after i was diagnosed in 19 i think it was 2020 is when i started like i got established for the va for my surgery because i had a lapse in uh my health insurance in 2019 so i got established through the va never thought one time to ever approach the va i don't even talk about it in the documentary we're doing because it's a it's a the the device of some people will be like hey you know they did all right by me but a lot of people in the other camp will be like dude all they do is prescribe you freaking meds it's all dude's kill themselves in the waiting room i understand both because i've seen both but because i got my leg done i was like all right i'm gonna try this like this therapy bullshit out man and i'm gonna be diligent because what i've been preaching to

Starting point is 01:18:35 people i gotta like i gotta be kind of taking the reins and lead by example right is i'm like how do you know unless you try now with what i've known in the last year of like diving into the subject matter on t uh tbi cte you know traumatic brain injuries uh pts um suicidal ideation depression anxiety all those things that are wrapped up i tell people i'm like if you want to combat this, like guys don't want to talk about their feelings. I get it. But is it because what's, what's the driver for that? Is it the way you're raised? Guys don't talk about the feelings that make you feel like you're weak. The hardest thing for you to do is to confront. I was like, if you're a warrior, you're going to

Starting point is 01:19:22 get after it. If someone's kicking your ass, you're going to fight back. So I've reframed my brain. I said, dude, if you're a warrior, why don't you do something about this instead of wearing your buddy out for 10 years? Like that's a, that's not a manly way out to show my ass to my friend for 10 or 12 years. Should have done it earlier. Bit of a hypocrite, but that's how long it took me to figure it out. My public service announcement to people is like, don't do what I did. Jump on it earlier, it's not gonna be easy. And what I've learned is there isn't a one size fits all

Starting point is 01:19:57 therapy or solution for PTS or TBIs or addiction issues. You might have to try 15 modalities before you get it, but you just got to be willing to put in the freaking work and get after it and deal with it head on. That's manning up is dealing with the thing head on because it's super freaking hard, man. I have friends, I probably get calls three or four or

Starting point is 01:20:25 five times a week i've had several friends kill commit suicide i've had like um two calls last week one was a civilian one was a friend that i've worked with and they're in the same spot fighting their demons and i'm like bro you know some people are still not willing a lot of guys that i've talked to they're kind of in that like dude you got stabbed four times in the last two years you got your head kicked in in front of a front of a liquor store because you're an addict because it's you know but what kind of life is that you know like you got to get your together and the only way to do it is the fight well we also have an enormous i mean there's a lot of mental health epidemics in this country right now to be frank but one that has been around for a long time and does not seem to get better that i think you know we we have to really ask some hard questions as a society on is that you do see so many of our veterans struggling with suicide and not being able to transition back home.

Starting point is 01:21:34 And it's like, okay, you're going to send them to these endless wars for two decades, which I could sit here and argue a lot about that. And I will, and I have on other podcasts but on the other end of it like okay well how do you how do you how do you take care of him better and and like at what point do you know you can't go anywhere in mainstream media without there being an emphasis on mental health but at what point do you actually act on that for our this is a guy from the front line sure this right here this is you know my whole goal is to raise awareness then de-stigmatize by me openly talking about my own shit in front of everybody it's like hey dude you know i'm not i'm not perfect but i've had a pretty good career

Starting point is 01:22:19 been very successful somehow and come coming through the other side, pretty damn good. I'm not 100%, but I'm getting there. But it requires a lot of work. And then I also want to be able to provide resources to people. There's a lot of places you can go if you're struggling. I mean, you can just go on Google. There's 40,000 nonprofits in the United States over. And, you know, it does get a little complex but

Starting point is 01:22:46 that's why we started a 501c3 is to help directionalize and help people kind of not just navigate but we want to help fund institutions that are actually treating veterans get them help but um and part of it's just talking about man, because people don't want to talk about suicide. It's off-putting. And I'm like, well, it never gets better unless there's a problem. And I'll give you a good statistic. So if you look from today back to 9-11, 22 years. We had about 7,000 roughly, not to the number, but 7,500 combat-related deaths.

Starting point is 01:23:34 Active duty and global war on terror veterans, active duty or the global war on terror veterans 34 000 suicides now if you take 22 veterans a day that the current statistic or 20 to 22 you're talking 150 000 suicides since 9 11 that's an epidemic of grave proportion who's talking about it there's no everyone's talking about it? There's no, everyone's talking about it and they're fixated on all this. That's, I don't even know what the math would be, you know, just leaps and bounds above the combat related deaths, you know. And if you look at all the injuries, tens of thousands of people have been injured or amputees. But those numbers are staggering. And it's a multitude of issues it's not just people can't hack it has nothing like my my stuff is not from i my belief is no issue from being in

Starting point is 01:24:34 firefights getting blown up by eds i don't think that has anything to do with it i was not there's two different types too like if you think about it's complicated because you have people that have tbis and then you have people with post-traumatic stress. And I like to call it post-traumatic stress injury instead of post-traumatic stress disorder. And I think that term and terminology is important because when I talk to people, I'm like, hey, bro, if you broke your leg, would you go to the doctor? They're like, yeah, man. I'm like, but if I say you have a mental disorder dudes don't want to go and i'm like if i take your brain and put it into an mri you actually have a physical

Starting point is 01:25:12 manifestation your fear center and your brain is over you know hard is working overtime so why wouldn't you get that fixed i can prove you have a injury of your brain. No different. But, yeah, it's just a conversation. I think it's a disservice to so many people not to do something about it. We do live in a world where if you can't see it it's not that it doesn't exist it just makes it hard to understand for people like you know i'll use a totally different example that's that is just to like not to make a comment on it but to just explain how this could work in theory like you get mad when you hear about something going wrong with with with a cop killing somebody you get way madder when you see it on video

Starting point is 01:26:12 oh yeah right and so that same marker within our psychology the same area i think also has something to do with how we treat our injuries. And what you're referring to is our mental injuries, because I've heard, and I'm not, I'm way above my pay grade to really say much here, but I've heard things like there's brain scans that can show manifestations of like depression or things like that. So that's- Or you have like a tbi right like so if you get blown up or you get in a massive car wreck and have a head injury like but the problem is that pts and tbi the symptoms overlap so it gets super hard to treat when you have hey does this person have post-traumatic stress like from you know kind of an experience or trauma or do they have a physical

Starting point is 01:27:07 trauma like they hit their head against a freaking b-pillar in a vehicle when they were crashing and that's it you can't tell like that's one you can physically see and you still that's more sexy man if i was if i could pick and choose i'd be like man i want a tbi right which i don't um probably already have one but um it's sounds more sexy like yeah man i want a tbi right which i don't um probably already have one but um it's sounds more sexy like yeah man i got blown up and freaking hit my head and i'm kind of jacked up now okay that seems acceptable and it's medically explainable i can't even tell you how many horror stories i've heard of people survivors survivors guilt. There's moral injuries, man. Like I never knew what a moral injury was before. So if you have like, if you look at post-traumatic stress, you can have some that are fear-based.

Starting point is 01:27:55 So a lot of people are assimilate like, hey, man, guys have nightmares. They hear a loud bank, a loud, you know, noise or fireworks. You know, people talk about the 4th of July. And that's a fear-based response. So if you hear fireworks and you're like, oh, it takes me back to when I got blown up by a mortar round, I was sleeping, totally makes sense. But moral injuries is a whole other category.

Starting point is 01:28:20 So when you have strict moral codes as a human being and you violate those or someone else violates them you don't even have to be a participant so i like to use the ones like vietnam vets like um this is a horrible people have heard stories about war trophies right cutting off ears i think most people your audience would be like okay i've maybe seen in a movie so that's a real thing. There's people... So say you're in your unit, you're in Vietnam,

Starting point is 01:28:51 your buddy's cutting an ear off somebody and you're just watching, but you have a strong moral code, but you don't do anything. Maybe you're... The other guy outranks you, maybe he'll kick the shit out of you back in the day if you

Starting point is 01:29:05 say something prisoner's dilemma yeah and you but you have this moral you know dilemma where you're like it might not bother you right away but like maybe a couple years later i'll give you a good i have a friend of mine who had somebody draw a young girl she's 12 years old ish he's in afghanistan girl draws an ak on him and his team so he draws up on her and he's like we don't kill women and children you know that's my more my morality says i don't kill women but she's a combatant she's training a freaking ak on him from me to you and he freaking doesn't do anything well she shoots him in the she misses but hits him in the arm almost takes his freaking arm off his arms hanging so then he shoots her well no issues but then now he has a daughter who just turned the same age

Starting point is 01:30:02 oh right so people can kind of put it in perspective well he has a daughter who just turned the same age. Oh. Right? So people can kind of put it in perspective. Well, he loves his daughter. He doesn't kill women and children. And he had a ton. This individual had been shot in the chest plate and the sappy plate. I mean, this is one of a million different things. So you get these layers of things. And when you're trying to work this out, well, that's a moral issue.

Starting point is 01:30:23 From my perspective, that's a moral issue from my perspective that's a just shoot she's a combatant it's a messed up situation but it's you or her and it's horrible you don't want to make that call i might be good with it but maybe he's not because i didn't have a daughter that's 12 years old and maybe that fired some shit you know in his brain and it might not have on mine so everybody everybody's, it's so complex, these situations, but I think that gives the audience like a moral injury is, is shame or guilt based. It's not a fear. And that's what I believe I had because I work for this company and there's other things that I don't want to talk about, you know? Um, but,

Starting point is 01:31:00 um, I'm an open book. Oh, okay. Okay. Wait, wait wait now i kind of understand like me back to there i have super like my buddies my friends are all that is important to me the guys on the left and the right of me like i will do like my buddy ron if he asked me for a kidney tomorrow you wouldn't want mine because it's probably all jacked up if i got cancer in it but i would do anything for him man and he knows that if he calls me at three in the morning and I got to fly across the country, sell my house for that dude. And I believe he'd do the same for me. But when that situation went down, when I was working, you want to talk about a helpless feeling. I felt like I was completely trapped.

Starting point is 01:31:40 What was the correct, similar to my buddy? He didn't take the shot got shot then he took the shot anyway he just made it worse on himself my if you look at it rationally but it's not rational none of this stuff's rational man it's not but without you said you don't want to go into it so i don't well yeah there's but you're saying just one thing and i just don't i'll never talk right so you're saying there's an element there's an element that led to some of your that has to do with that yeah and this has all been very thought thought provoking for me to figure out i'm like dude i don't even know i'm going through all these things for 10 years and i have no idea because i'm like i'm not i don't have any

Starting point is 01:32:17 fear of like when i would come back from trips after being blown up and then you're home the next day if i see a cardboard box back then I'm swerving dude if I'm on 95 anything that was out of place a parked car on the side of the road you want to talk about hyper vigilance I mean the day prior I'm in Iraq and I got blown up the following day I'm trying to drive to a mall you know I'm back in the civilian world. And those transitions are really tricky because it's a survival instinct you're fighting, right? But I think it's fascinating. Like, there's a lot of stuff. There's a lot of layers to the understanding and the treatment of these types of things are very complicated. But I think people understand from those two examples of like, you don't even

Starting point is 01:33:07 have to be a participant, you know, then there's sexual trauma. There's so many layers to this conversation, but everybody's different and they handle things differently. And it's not a weakness because I mean, I can go through, I've probably been through a thousand freaking traumatic events that people would be like, what the hell? You know, but they don't impact me because it's like certain things that might impact other people. They don't, they kind of like Teflon to that stuff now. And I think now I'm more equipped mentally than ever which is nice so i don't dwell to your point of you know you were asking about don't i think like there was like this paradigm of like you know it was kind of ironic that when i got diagnosed with cancer i had 26 or% survival for five years. That was my first like odds, you know,

Starting point is 01:34:07 and I'm three years in, so do the math. But my new one, I have 9% chance because I'm stage four for a 10 year survival. So if you add those together, I'm sure the odds are very low. But, um, I don't, um, I have a really weird mindset when it comes to all this stuff. I just don't think the things that are, like I don't dwell on any of that stuff. And I feel like the work that I'm putting in has really paid dividends. But I think, let me regroup. You asked me, like, don't I think about it a lot? The only thought I had was a fleeting thought. I've had it a couple of times because it was like, how ironic is that I was like literally suicidal, wanting to

Starting point is 01:35:00 kill myself certain days all day long. And then I get told that I have a very slim percentage that I might be able to make it a couple years, not like 10. And now I'm fighting because I want to be around to do more for other people and I'm motivated. I've got a great purpose again. Well, there's irony there, but I also think it's a control freak thing i think when you know i'm like i'm not going out on somebody else's terms like in my i think that's a psychology thing i think in my my my reptilian brain of mine i was like no one's gonna tell me when i'm gonna

Starting point is 01:35:41 check out i'm gonna control i can control when I do it or if I don't do it. And now I don't think about it at all. I've finally had a reprieve of the last six, well, about six, seven months. Nothing, man. What crossed you over to that? I think starting this documentary, man. When I started my first interview, it was the first time I've ever been on camera. And let's tell people about that because you mentioned it once or twice but what's what's the documentary and what's it consisted of so we we started

Starting point is 01:36:13 in in january this year i kind of got this i was like man the reason i joke about being a professional sufferer i said wait a minute like i'm face I faced a lot of freaking adversity man and I survived 10 years being suicidal and I didn't like it and I'm gonna I have to admit I have a problem I'm gonna do something about it and I did it so I started doing treatment and then I'm like I started getting more and more phone calls of my friends that have uh either been struggling or committed suicide and i'm like this is crazy like if i can't figure this out i don't want this to sound narcissistic i said if i can't figure out this mental health shit and i'm a freaking professional sufferer i'm damn good like i can take a lot of pain physically and mentally and i have big shoulders how the hell is other people not like

Starting point is 01:37:06 gonna gonna do it not to sound narcissistic again but i'm like oh they're not that's why the suicide rate's so freaking high yeah so i was like i wanna i wanna i wanna raise awareness and talk about my even though i don't want to talk about my it's one of the most cringy things to do i don't want to do it but i started calling film guys and I ended up talking to Daniel Beatty, who's one of our producers. I said, hey, man, I'm doing this thing. I just want to talk about, you know, raise awareness, destigmatize and provide some true resources to veterans that are struggling to make a difference, man. But I don't want it to be like a sob story i want to make it inspiring like rocky right so that's why we've been filming for uh since january my first interview on i was like bro i don't you know

Starting point is 01:37:55 being real i don't know that i'm gonna be around for the end of the documentary man but i'm like if i end up killing myself you need to fucking exploit it exploit the shit out of it dude because they'll be fucking gold and he said that to him I did and he goes what the fuck is wrong with you man I said well that's where my head's at right now bro and that was in January and I already had been putting in probably about nine months of work and you're to be clear I was slightly confused on this because there were a couple times where I thought maybe I was thinking of it wrong. But you're not working now, right? No. I spend my day-to-day, freaking seven days a week,

Starting point is 01:38:38 is working on the documentary, our nonprofit, Brothers Keeper Veteran Foundation. So we're starting to really get some traction. And I want that to, like, the documentary is just a side project. That's what I've been solely focusing my time on from January to now. We've probably got about 95% of the filming done. So now it's all post-work and putting together. I really want to make sure, I want to do a good job from start to finish. like I said I really want to make it inspiring so I told him I said I want you to film me in the gym getting all jack stage four looking sexy you know so he's following me around in the gym and the first you know the first time out of surgery I was like had like no weight on I was like oh my god when was it how long until

Starting point is 01:39:25 your first workout after september surgery to take your lung out part of your lung out my first workout was well the day i got home two days after surgery i walked two and a half miles i mean yeah that was a workout for me but when when did you hit the gym and lift i think it was two a little over two weeks they told me they were like dude you can't lift till six seven weeks post-op fuck you and i was like well i can do legs and i hate legs because i'm always in i'm so much pain but i was like i'll do leg extensions leg curls calf raises that's your scan but you sent me this too i'll put it in the corner of the screen am i allowed to put that in the corner yeah um long as you got my got that all yeah but that's my yeah so that's my right

Starting point is 01:40:08 hip replacement and then they this little dagger down here is the uh goes into my what's left of my femur jesus christ man so you're doing you're doing leg presses with that you squatting i can do hack squats they said i'd never squat again but they also said i'd never run again six months after surgery i ran just to prove my surgeon wrong so i filmed myself of course shirtless looking sexy they love that there's nine ancestral tenants bro and i was like tell me i can't do something and i'm running and i sent it to my surgeon i didn't walk for like a week after that i never did it again but i just wanted to see i could do it you're not juicing are you huh you're not juicing now i do trt though all right good yeah that's the stuff that's the stuff joe rogan does right yeah i can't take so that

Starting point is 01:40:52 would get you that wouldn't pass in the mlb testosterone that's testosterone yeah i'm like almost i'm gonna be 50 in a few months man those gotta keep it see anything that's um like if i was taking what the liver king did i'd be dead um i was gonna say how can you even do this well if you want to do there are some things like i'm a big advocate of trt if you're over 40 man and get your levels checked but like hgh and stuff i gotta think that just would my viewpoint on that i think there are some anti-aging properties. I can't take it because I have cancer.

Starting point is 01:41:26 Right. And there's studies both ways. I've never tried it. I was definitely interested when I hit 50. I was like, maybe I'll try it because through a testosterone replacement therapy, an actual doctor. Because you got to make sure your blood levels or your blood works checked when you do TRT. That's the big thing the guys mess up these guys do all this gym bro stuff and things are not pharma pharmaceutically graded

Starting point is 01:41:52 testosterone you're crazy man but um i can't take any of that stuff because it would supercharge my cancer i'll be dead in like a week yeah i mean i'm deferring this thing from a doctor but it just sounded like that that wouldn't even that make no sense even to me yeah you don't want cell proliferation if you have cancer it's not good yeah if i start going down that road trying to understand what you just said we're gonna we're not a problem you don't want things to start like splitting and growing you know oh oh all right wait now i just heard i heard that back in my head, but now it's obvious. It makes muscles bigger, but it makes cancer bigger. Yeah, duh. That's my theory. Duh. Probably gym science.

Starting point is 01:42:27 But still, I mean, it's like, it's amazing to see the will of people to overcome odds. And again, like, the doctors gotta love that. Like, oh my god, look at this guy. Because, you know, their job is to be conservative about things to take care of you and and then if you can if you can say hey this is good for me and you know if i could pull it off that'd be good for you too and look at me i did it these these dudes don't know what to think of me bro like i've gone into so many different specials like right now i go to a cancer specialist who's kind of oversees all of this nonsense um because now it's long it's ortho whatever so i go into my cancer thing man i'll come out of the gym dude i'm wearing a tank top i'm like what's up what are

Starting point is 01:43:13 you guys in for and dude it's it's sad man like i'm not trying to make light of it because everybody handles things differently man but you could ask my wife i drive her crazy with this stuff because i'll be like yeah like when I have Marissa I'm like I got to take these things out so I can go lift they're like what I got to do something man you know I don't want to be like it would be because you also ask you know tying back to that previous question like there was that paradox where it was like one minute I'm suicidal the next minute I don't want you know somebody to tell me i'm gonna die of cancer like that's so crazy it's like you're it's like you were you were living

Starting point is 01:43:52 to die but now you're you're dying a little not to be too cliche right but but also like that inner like i was thinking about on the way here because i didn't go to the gym this morning i'm kind of hating myself i feel like a piece she flew in it fucking 630, bro Yeah, I was at the ad to leave the house at 515 But it's okay that that inner bitch man because I'm like then like you'll hear it kind of creep up Why should you go to the gym and your stage for you're just gonna die this shit. That's a fucking cop-out, dude That's what that's that little thing like dude just have some more ice cream bro just drink fast food like where does it stop right what so i can just do

Starting point is 01:44:31 anything i want because of the situation no dude i want like i said i want to get my t-shirt with keeping stage four sexy like i want to inspire. Like, I could just easily just fall off, not do anything, stay at home and just eat ice cream all day. I don't get any enjoyment out of that. I get enjoyment pushing. I want to optimize what God's given me to the maximum potential every day. And if that, you just have to recalibrate goals and everyone's going to have to do this. Maybe you break your leg. It doesn't mean you have to not go to the gym anymore i've broken legs i've broken knees or well acl replacement on both legs i have a torn acl right now 100 on my right leg because i'm not going to get a fix there's no point i can doesn't hurt you know i can do another surgery just for just because it's a year rehab you know but i tell people i'm like dude you know get after that shit man whatever your thing is

Starting point is 01:45:35 like i just hear those voices all day long of like do it man like don't sit on your ass like i was telling you coming here i was like man i should have went to the gym like maybe i'll do it when i get home and i was gonna it'll be 11 o'clock flying tomorrow man that might be an exception but you know it's too easy to listen to that you know maybe i shouldn't put more a couple more hours in the work, you know. When you know you should, you know, like you got an important presentation coming up you want to be overly prepared for. No, man, put that time in, you know. Don't listen to that little naysayer voice in your head. That's a crutch, man.

Starting point is 01:46:20 And speaking of crutch, when I went off my, I was on a cane, a walker, and a wheelchair. As soon as I came off that crutch, I threw that shit out. I donated my wheelchair. I donated my freaking walker. I was like, I don't want to ever have that in the house. Some people are like, well, keep it. You might need it. Fuck that shit. Buy a new one.

Starting point is 01:46:40 No, man. I don't want to look at that shit. I don't want to go back on that shit. If I go back on that, that means I'm fucking near death, dude. That's the next i don't want to go back on that shit if i go back on that that means i'm fucking near death dude that's the next time you're gonna see me on that shit but day one this year in january when you're filming that documentary as you said you looked at that dude was that on camera too where you said if i'm if i'm dead you gotta no i just told him i said man i don't know if i'm gonna live to see the end of this documentary bro and since then

Starting point is 01:47:04 it just progressively the work that we put into the documentary was so uncomfortable for me. Like I told you about, you know, I had to tell my buddy Ron that he saved my life that time. And I wasn't sure that he knew or didn't know. He knew he was coming because I wasn't in good shape. But he didn't know the gravity of the situation until I went out and flew out there. And I, it was super rough to do dude. Cause he's like my brother, man, closer than a brother. And I mean, we've been through it all like death and war and training and stress things that, you know, you know, the,

Starting point is 01:47:43 you know, someone at a granular level and, uh, some things that we don you know that you know someone at a granular level and uh some things that we don't have to even speak about you know it's like yep but that was something i guess i needed to do because everything was like light like i feel like i'm getting closure and everything man closure like john you said that i'm sorry i just want to make sure like you said that that was the crossing point right where you're like that's where it kind of switched once you started this where you finally had that oh like you know what like this is what i got to do and i don't need to feel it's not that i don't i can i can learn better how to deal with those constant ideations I was having.

Starting point is 01:48:26 Yeah, they're gone. Like I had maybe one or two slips this whole year, man. Like when I say a record, it's like profound record. And I'll tell you one last thing. Like, so because I'm doing this documentary this documentary you know we've been self-funding this whole thing so we're like hey man if you guys like what we're doing or we stand for and we will help us with a documentary you can go to this site so john's father i haven't spoke to him i just couldn't deal with john's in yeah john's zinn's father when he passed away i was super involved for two years and I couldn't hack it

Starting point is 01:49:05 anymore because I was suicidal I was like dude I gotta get away from this so I moved to Greenville and I couldn't I felt a lot of shame and guilt with how I handled the situation with him and the family I just it broke me man like in a million pieces so i noticed that there was a i have like uh i wanted to thank every all our donors so i'm going through the list and i see his father donated you know money to our documentary and i was like oh my goodness i gotta do a thank you i can't just do a thank you i haven't talked to him in 10 years and i feel shame and guilt because i'm a piece of i should have been there for his kids i just couldn't i couldn't do it dude um so i i made amends with that situation with the other part of the family but i never did with him i just didn't have the balls so i wrote this letter man like about a month ago like everything else and i'm telling you man it's

Starting point is 01:50:01 like all these likes like incremental steps i was like i had a man the up and write him a letter that he deserves because he's not getting any younger and i said man that you know with john the situation broke me and um you know i've never been broken before but that's the damn i mean that was it i said i was wanted to kill myself you know like attempted to kill myself and um i just feel a lot of shame and guilt and i i basically wrote this letter and i sent it out so he gave me one in response because i'm not on facebook i've never been so my wife handles that shit so he wrote her hey i sent him a letter back he said his letter made me cry and i was like in a good positive way so i've had his letter for about a week and a half

Starting point is 01:50:54 being a little bitch because i didn't want to deal with it before any like media stuff because i didn't want to get like you know it's probably gonna rock me a little bit but it's good shit man like i said hey i want to maintain a relationship man i'll come up there and see you guys you know maybe i'll do it next month but this was like those incremental steps man that you do i think i want to fucking read that thing it's been on my desk for a week purposely because i was like let me get past these i've got these three things i got to take care of from a work perspective i don't want to be all up are you afraid of what's what could be in there no i just feel game uh shilt uh a lot of shame and guilt on

Starting point is 01:51:37 i always i could have done better man like i did i gave everything that i had to the point where it broke me. But, you know, time has gone past. Like, I couldn't even talk about this a couple years ago. I wouldn't even be like, fuck you, dude. Go fuck yourself. I'm not talking about any of this shit with anybody. I tell everyone I'm an open book, you know. Like, I'll answer literally anything but one thing, and I'm like, ask me anything, and I'm an'm open book because I think my experience is there might be some benefit and utility to people or someone out there.

Starting point is 01:52:13 And I told my buddy when I started talking about doing the documentary in January when I said, man, I don't know if I'm gonna be around, but if I fucking kill myself, fucking exploit the shit out of me. He was like, what the hell? I was like, welcome. Welcome aboard, dude. I'm going to be around, but if I fucking kill myself, fucking exploit the shit out of me. He was like, what the hell? I was like, welcome aboard, dude. I'm a weird dude. But, yeah, through that whole process, I'm trying to think where I was going with that train of thought. Yeah, it's been progressively better, though. I don't know where I was going with my train of thought. Well, it's cathartic,ic too doing what you're doing yeah it's just it's just been easier every time

Starting point is 01:52:50 you know every time you kind of plow through you're like uh some things are easier and some things are kind of still difficult but like i'm actually kind of looking forward to reading his letter. I just didn't want to, I didn't know what it was going to say. So I was like, I don't want to get kicked in the dick, but I'm not worried about going back to a dark place at all. Like I just feel like it's closure, man. Like I told him what I needed to get off my chest because it was fucking eating me alive. That was just one little thing.

Starting point is 01:53:22 It wasn't even a big, you know but um in the grand scheme of things i was like man i gotta get that closure with john's dad dude because what if he dies next you know before i get to tell him yeah i i asked that a couple minutes ago and follow up to it i asked it a really open question like are you afraid which without context wasn't good because it doesn't sound right like how that came out but what i meant was you it's clear to me just based on what you said but also like how you're feeling in your body language like there that is that you're very happy that he acknowledged that and that they're you know you're gonna have a relationship with him and you can have peace with that, but that's a guilt from your life that you couldn't deal with that and needed to get away from it all.

Starting point is 01:54:10 And when I said, are you afraid of what it's going to say, what I meant was, are you afraid that that, of course, that elephant in the room is going to be acknowledged in what he says to you and you don't want to read it to reinforce the fact of what you already feel about it towards yourself yeah i think it's gonna be a positive thing but again it goes down to like lost time you can't get back you know like yeah in a perfect world i don't have any regrets because you only know what you know now once you go through a certain and it educates you and such david goggins just had a really good one he said like i think i was telling you You only know what you know now once you go through a certain, and it educates you and such. David Goggins just had a really good one. He said, like, I think I was telling you previous to the podcast. He was like, dude, when I run like a 62-hour run, 240 miles, I learn more in that dark moment, you know, where I'm suffering. I learned seven years of life in that 62-hour race.

Starting point is 01:55:07 And I was like, man, that's some freaking deep shit. And it doesn't totally jibe with what I'm doing and feeling, but the closure is really important to me. Because I don't have any – I'm not worried from a religious perspective, like where I'm at with God. I'm like, look, dude, I'm doing the best I can. I'm a good dude. I'm trying to help other people and be a better human being all the way around. But I don't want to leave any loose ends. And I never even thought about this one.

Starting point is 01:55:39 This one just was like a gift of what I'm doing. This letter was like, I was just like, well just like well i gotta man up i had to do something uncomfortable you know again i preach that all the time i'm like if you want to grow you're growing in the dark man that's where the growth happens when you're in this grimy gritty i don't want to write that letter to him like it was fucking hard man like it brought back old shit i didn't want to fucking deal with but when i sent it i was like that was the right thing to do yes and you just man the fuck up and that's what's important and then when he responded i was like all right he's not even he's not mad at me i'm

Starting point is 01:56:19 not mad at him it's just the shitty we went through a really shitty time in our life and it broke everybody, man. But, you know, I love it. I have a little theory here and I'm almost like afraid to throw it out there. But don't be afraid to shut this the fuck somewhere in the neighborhood of like four hours and 15 minutes or something like that. So some of it is blending together as to what was talked about in the car or before the camera started rolling versus what was on camera. But I'm going to recite some of the things you've at least told me and and said on camera in some cases you had been talking about at one point the fact that in society there's you mentioned like the divorce rate and the product of a lot of kids who don't know how to deal with their masculinity maybe they don't have a father

Starting point is 01:57:19 figure in their life or they they have a not very good one or you know their parents are divorced and they spend a lot of less time around their dad. And then you related that back to your situation growing up where you were a product of divorce as well. But you went with your dad unlike your other siblings. So you did – it's clear you had a great relationship with your dad up and down while you were growing up as well because you were in some trouble. But like you loved the guy and were there taking care of him when he died a few years ago and looking at like your story over the last decade or so leading from john's death all the way through all those years of struggle into getting this insanely tragic diagnosis and everything and having to deal with that head on and, and constantly worrying about,

Starting point is 01:58:05 you know, your, your self worth and stuff like that. You still struggled with that as you've now laid out in the first year and a half, two years of this diagnosis and, or three years almost of this diagnosis and started to come to a, to a,

Starting point is 01:58:24 to a peace with it. Once you began this cathartic process of the documentary and now doing some of the media and things like this around it i guess talk about marcus latrell right talking with black rifle coffee like you've been on some some really good good shows and and veteran shows as well guys who can relate better than a lot better than I can but you know you putting that out as your legacy so to speak so that it can be used after after your death and and talking so fondly about your own relationship with with your father and then also talking about your great relationship with your stepson who's you know your your stepdad it wasn't your official kid but you look at it that way and you feel

Starting point is 01:59:11 calling to leave an example for him but also while you're here teach him well and and help him make good decisions i i think a big piece of of what you've done is you've been such a high level busy important guy for your entire adult life since you were 18, doing crazy life and death shit and constantly taking care of all the other people around you as well. That for life, whatever reasons, you didn't have your kid. And so in a lot of ways, you found that peace in trying to be a father for other people so that when you're gone, that's something that you will leave things for them that they can learn from, whether it's just listening to a podcast like this here or the other ones you're doing

Starting point is 01:59:51 or seeing what that documentary will end up being. You want to be that father figure that you feel like society is lacking. Yeah. No, I think that's a great summary, man, because part of the other thing that got me ramped up was when I was diagnosed in 19, obviously 2020, you know, I was kind of recovering and the world changed, man. You had the pandemic and all this nonsense going on, all this negativity. I'm like, man, this isn't the country I recognize. This isn't the country I love, man.

Starting point is 02:00:24 Like, what is going on with this division? And everything is just, like, hot-button topics. So I was like, man, we just need more people. Like, when I tell people I want to, like, I've never been on social media. I never wanted to be in front of a camera. Still don't. But I feel like there's good in it, right? So I want to weaponize social media. I tell people all the time, man, I want to weaponize it for good. And I don't care what

Starting point is 02:00:51 the algorithms, I don't care how many followers, I just want the right people, man. So I'm like, if people on Instagram, you can follow me at Chris underscore Cathers. Like that's how you can be part of the movement. What's your website too um we are we are brotherskeeper.com so we're going to revamp that site we're working on it in january uh but if anybody wants to donate or kind of keep you know following what we're doing as far as the documentary that'll be a good good way to do it so documentary is going to be called brothers keeper but the website just so i have that right and i'll put it on the screen so we are brotherskeeper.com okay brothers keep okay got it yeah so first of all I'm really excited to see how that looks because you and I talked when obviously you were

Starting point is 02:01:35 already well underway with this and now we're talking now and it's pretty as I think you said it's like 95 done yeah as far as like the filming that aspect's done so post work is where we just i just want to make sure this this really meets the mark man it's a high i have a high bar of expectations i want something that people can like because i always joke around i'm like it's a dark subject matter man yeah and depending on how people frame this like obviously clearly i don't think my my life has not been dark i think my life i've had so many opportunities to do cool and travel the world and do stuff i have my bucket list is almost empty that's why i'm also choosing to do what i'm doing because i've done everything man i've traveled like there's not like oh i should

Starting point is 02:02:15 go to machu picchu that would be cool i feel good man i feel good what i haven't done from a legacy perspective is i've helped people individually but i've never really like i never had the thought to man i could really impact maybe save some lives man get people to get maybe seek out treatment that weren't going to that might end up killing themselves that's freaking rad and if i can do it from a legacy perspective where the foundation continues to help people that are struggling you know i love to do it to everybody it's just the veteran community was near and dear and easy for me to reach yeah but it impacts everybody man civilians paramedics first responders knows no boundaries man it's just

Starting point is 02:02:57 the frequency of veterans historically at least during the 20 years of war they were encountering things at a rapid rate not like the previous years so that's the only reason that i think the numbers are so much higher is there's so much more social um there's more frequency to trauma you know over the last 20 years they're just people are going at some point you got to put the race car back in the garage yeah so yeah that's well that's well said man it's really fucking well said i gotta get you out of here in a few minutes because we gotta get you to the airport but you know you've first of all thank you so much for for how open you've been today this is this has been great and if you didn't have to leave like i'd keep this going because there's so much to talk about but you know you you have it's very clear that at least on the outside and i'd say you're pretty fucking convincing if you're hiding it you are you are brave and matter of fact in in facing

Starting point is 02:03:56 what you're facing right now and that's incredibly inspiring but you know you talked about that spiritual aspect of it all with life and death and everything, and we got into that a little bit around religion and meaning. But to you, you've said something along the lines of like, I don't really care. I don't really think about it too much. But what's a perfect – if none of us know, and none of of us do but if none of us know what happens on the other side what what do you think would be a perfect scenario for you i mean the perfect scenario for me right now is um well there's two things i mean one from a suffering perspective i i got the the moniker right i prefer not to suffer for like five months because i i think one of the

Starting point is 02:04:45 problems i'm gonna have is i'm super strong-willed and my biggest fear is like from for me i'm just being brutally honest like i know how much i can take and i can take a lot of and i saw my dad how much he could take and i thought i got a couple notches up on him now i'm questioning that if i can die with half the grace that my father did um that he set the bar freaking high man um that was just crazy and that that's the only thing that worries me about the whole death topic is am i going to be that strong will where i'm just going to keep suffering super a long time but i'm good at it so either way i'll probably try to do it with a smile on my face but that's just that's one thing but i don't other than that man everything that i'm doing i've got more joy out of this last year from some of the pursuits and it's not from a professional

Starting point is 02:05:37 i'm not getting paid any money you know like it's not about money i don't i told the documentary guys netflix buys this thing for whatever I don't give a shit All I want to do is put the money into the foundation like I'm not into this For my nine ancestral tenants see I tied that back around So, I mean you already made you get closing the loop. You've got to close the loop man like Reading that letter when I get home tomorrow I'm gonna do that checking that block which gives me fulfillment man like that I'm closing that another chapter and opening another door like I don't want any of this I don't want anything over my head you know I believe I wish I should

Starting point is 02:06:16 have done this I wish I should have done that like if once I get some of these things done and start getting like feedback from people like I've already gotten a ton of feedback from people that i've helped and that's the most rewarding thing man money doesn't touch any of that shit you know it's pretty dope do you believe in heaven like you know like geographically you're talking like because i flew up at 30 000 feet today man and i always thought it was in the clouds that's an awesome awesome comeback right there you're not setting me up again i'm not trying to set you up it's a very direct question that was a heavy question but um i it depends if you mean literally or figuratively oh you're getting like metaphysical on me i know see can i punt on this one you can hey you can do

Starting point is 02:07:06 whatever you want man you don't have to answer anything because we could we could sit here and like you know that's a tough tough question because then you have the literal and the figurative sense you know depends on there's a anyway punt all right we'll we'll punt that and i'd love to i you look amazing, first of all. I mean, I would never know you had cancer at all. You look like a fucking... It's not easy to eat this much anymore. It's incredible, though. Seriously, you deserve a fuck ton of credit for that.

Starting point is 02:07:37 And it's incredibly inspiring. But I hope you keep battling and doing your thing and get the story out there as well. And I'd love to be sitting with you here a year from now that'd be pretty fucking cool looking just like this yeah that's the goal man swole is the goal size of the prize nine ancestral tenants man i'm gonna go home and eat some liver just don't start eating testicles man come on i don't need you being like look i have stage four cancer testicles are keeping me alive please don't do that interesting listen chris thank you so much man yeah this was amazing man and and i'm really really really glad you came to do this i appreciate it all right everybody else you know what it is

Starting point is 02:08:17 give it a thought get back to me peace

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