Julian Dorey Podcast - 😳 [VIDEO] - The Brutal War You NEVER Hear About | Ryan Tate, VETPAW • #117

Episode Date: September 16, 2022

(***TIMESTAMPS in Description Below) ~ Ryan Tate is a veteran, conservationist, undercover operator, and on-the-ground commander in Africa. After serving in both Afghanistan and Iraq, Ryan moved to Af...rica to lead the battle against int’l criminal syndicates and foreign governments financing illegal poaching. With the Elephants and Rhinos severely endangered upon his arrival in 2014, Ryan founded VETPAW, an organization that brings veterans to the front lines of the war against poachers. Over their 8 years working with local governments to protect reserves across Africa, VETPAW has lost *ZERO* animals to poaching –– and has been a driving force behind the regrowth of the Elephant and Rhino populations. They are effectively the greatest conservationists on planet earth. If you enjoyed the Shawn Ryan podcast we did, you'll enjoy this one! ***TIMESTAMPS*** 0:00 - Intro; Ryan’s deployment to Afghanistan 27:26 - Stories from The War in Iraq; Chasing Al-Zarqawi 46:43 - Ryan talks about his PTS after he came home; Initial life post-Marines 1:02:02 - The story of the IED that almost took Ryan’s life 1:15:41 - Ryan’s time working for Susan Rice at the US State Department; Why Ryan values New York City 1:27:24 - The War on Elephants & Rhinos; How Ryan came to join the fight against poachers in Africa 1:52:23 - “The Minefield” and Ryan’s first days building VETPAW 2:05:15 - Poaching explained; The Illegal Rhino Horn Trade; Conservation politics 2:22:32 - The Illegal Ivory Trade (Elephant Tusks) explained; ISIS and Terrorist ties to the Ivory Trade 2:40:45 - Ryan describes the on-the-ground poaching war and the role he plays; Converting the criminals; Current Elephant & Rhino population data 3:05:20 - Resources required for the War on Poaching; How we can protect all of Africa; VETPAW’s board is stacked ~ YouTube EPISODES & CLIPS: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0A-v_DL-h76F75xik8h03Q ~ Get $150 Off The Eight Sleep Pod Pro Mattress / Mattress Cover (USING CODE: “TRENDIFIER”): https://eight-sleep.ioym.net/trendifier PRIVADO VPN FOR $4.99/Month: https://privadovpn.com/trendifier/#a_aid=Julian Julian's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/julianddorey ~ Beat provided by: https://freebeats.io Music Produced by White Hot Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Starting point is 00:00:00 It was, it was intense. Now that was when, that was like right before we got out as a car, right? Yes, and I actually, I chased them too. This was badass. So we have this vehicle checkpoint and out of nowhere and it comes in on the radio and then there are Amtrak tanks, the amphibious tanks just flying over the Euphrates River. I didn't know it. We were literally, I was standing on top of an IED that they paved
Starting point is 00:00:33 underneath the asphalt. So as soon as that Humvee pulled away and I'm stepping off of the road, they blew it. I took my corpsman and I sat him in this unique position while we were doing a vehicle checkpoint. And then as I'm stepping out of it and my hand is still in the handle, snap, snap, snap. And like I convinced myself, hey, I'm probably not going to come back. So make this worth it. Holy shit, it rocked my world. The first one was an elephant laying on a tar road, no face. ISIS in Africa, up to 40% of their operations, terrorist activities are funded off the illegal trade of elephants and rhinos.
Starting point is 00:01:22 They are poaching animals to kill humans. We arrested the poaching network responsible for 18,000 unaccounted elephants in one year. If they catch a park ranger, they will torture them. They'll kill their family, everything. The poachers? Yep. The Chinese government was busted smuggling ivory out in diplomatic pouches off the coast and taking it home. I had a bounty on my freaking head by these guys.
Starting point is 00:01:51 Really? Yeah. How'd that happen? Because we were affecting their bottom line. And then the guy that took my place when I had to come back to the States for an illness, they assassinated him. What's cooking everybody? I am joined in the bunker today by my friend Ryan Tate, the founder of VetPol. VetPol is an organization of military veterans who are fighting on the front lines of the war against wildlife in Africa. And no, i'm not
Starting point is 00:02:25 talking about fighting against hunters for those of you who are unaware there are international organizations including criminal syndicates terrorist groups and foreign governments who are funding the illegal killing of beautiful exotic creatures like elephants and rhinos rendering them endangered the work that ryan and his team at VetPaw does on the ground every day in Africa in concert with several governments around the African continent is absolutely incredible. And in the eight years of their existence,
Starting point is 00:02:53 they have lost zero animals across the thousands of acres of land that they patrol. It is unbelievable work. And most importantly, in a time where we're fighting about every goddamn thing known to man this is something that we all can get behind so i hope you guys enjoy this episode and thank you to
Starting point is 00:03:10 ryan for coming in and telling his story anyway if you are on youtube right now please hit that subscribe button hit that like button on the video and as always would love to hear from you down in the video comment section as well to everyone who has been sharing these episodes around with their friends and on social media thank you it's the best help we can get i really really appreciate it let's keep that going to everyone who is listening on apple or spotify right now thank you for checking out the show over there if you haven't already please be sure to leave a five-star review on either one of those platforms as that is a huge, huge help to the show. That said, you know what it is. I'm Julian Dorey. This is Trendafire.
Starting point is 00:03:49 And please welcome my friend, Ryan Tate. Well, listen, man, thank you so much for coming in. I've been really, really excited about this one. Shoot, man, thanks for having me. Of course. I appreciate it. I got a call from your guy, Andy Johnson, on the board. I thought it was like a fake email.
Starting point is 00:04:04 And then I looked at him like this kind of looks real and then he hit me up right away he's like julian you have to talk to my man ryan he's running this great company we do all the marketing for them it's such a great cause and i'm like i'm already in i just tell me about it that guy's my hero man he's amazing he's been on our board for i don't, a year and a half now. Totally elevated us to a status I didn't even understand until he came on board. Honestly, the kindest person in the world, too. That guy would literally take a bullet to the face for an animal.
Starting point is 00:04:37 I believe it. The way he talked about it and the way he described it. I also do think things sound smarter and cooler when british people are doing it but like way cooler the way he was doing it like he's explaining to me these videos i haven't even seen yet and i have a tear in my eye listening to it because this is somebody in his case who grew up loving animals like loved everything about them and now you know has had a lot of success and is trying to do whatever he can on his end to help great causes. I love that.
Starting point is 00:05:06 Yeah, he was a donor of ours too to start. He would donate monthly and then he reached out to me. And I never check my LinkedIn stuff, which is terrible. I need to check it more. Randomly checked my LinkedIn and I've got this message from Andy. And he says, hey, I've been donating for a couple of years monthly. I give what I can. But this is what I do and I think I can help you on a larger scale.
Starting point is 00:05:28 So we did a phone call, and I'm like, this is a godsend. I mean, yes, you can help us. That's awesome. Yeah. And by the way, I do want to know, we have a very full studio today. Yeah. Got Mr. Paul Rosalie over here. Legend.
Starting point is 00:05:41 Say what's up. And we got Justin. What's your last name, Justin? Wyskowski. That was hard. How do you say that? Alphabet.. What's your last name, Justin? Wyskowski. That was hard. How do you say that? Alphabet. It's Wyskowski, actually.
Starting point is 00:05:49 Wyskowski. Yeah, yeah. Justin Wyskowski. That's what I'm going to say. I didn't know that. That's good. It's got some language to it. So you are the team leader on the ground for Vet Paul,
Starting point is 00:05:57 which we're going to talk all about, people. This is an amazing organization, and the story is insane. But you're the team leader over in South Africa? I am, yeah. Cool. We'll have you on a podcast in over in south africa i am all right cool we'll have you on a podcast in the future for sure awesome i'm already on a podcast yeah yeah you're here you're already here you can't see him on the camera but he's here and then paul over here i mean is it like a good idea to get eaten by an anaconda like what got in your head to want to do
Starting point is 00:06:18 that worst idea ever worst decision of my life paul hosted a show it was called eaten alive right uh it was it was called eaten alive and they told me that it would help me protect the amazon rainforest which is what my actual mission is and it was a bad decision okay we'll talk he's coming in in a couple months so we'll talk about that one on a podcast for sure but this is the guy over here protecting the amazon rainforest and the guy over here is helping conserve well the two guys over here are helping conserve all of the wildlife over in africa which is a very crazy underworld very sad underworld too we're going to talk all about it today but just to get things rolling off so that we can get in there can you tell us all a little bit about where you're from and how this journey
Starting point is 00:07:05 landed on you suddenly being the founder of this wonderful African organization to help the wildlife? Sure. How much time you got? We got all day, man. So my name is Ryan Tate. I'm the president and founder of VetPol, which stands for Veterans Empowered to Protect African Wildlife. I grew up in Tampa, Florida originally, left for the Marine Corps right out of high school. I was in high school for 9-11. So I think that was probably my first real exposure to trauma, you know, trauma that I didn't know about, at least, you know. How old were you when that happened 16 and i was in an english class miss rodriguez her english class um and uh she was always the cool teacher because her boyfriend at the time was warwick
Starting point is 00:07:52 dunn the uh the running back for the 28 yeah yeah legend um uh anyway so i was in her her class i was a ta a teacher's assistant she used to have me prank call him as a joke and so i was prank calling warwick dunn it was awkward when i met him in person i was scared shitless but anyways and then all of a sudden a teacher busts in the door uh from the portable uh next to her classroom he's like have you seen what happened at the World Trade Center? Freaking out. The guy looked like he saw a ghost. He said, flip on the TV.
Starting point is 00:08:30 She flipped it on. There it is. Boom, the second plane hits. I couldn't wrap my head around what was happening. It was just nuts. People are actually dying in those buildings. I'm watching this.
Starting point is 00:08:45 I had always wanted to go into the military. I was in part of – I wasn't in, like, a high school ROTC because, I don't know, I just, you know, I didn't want to wear the uniforms to school and stuff. But they're good kids. Don't get me wrong. but I was in this one week in a month like Navy program where I would go and learn about the military, gave me some structure, and I went to this boot camp they do two weeks out of the year so that I could elevate to the next level.
Starting point is 00:09:17 And to start, there were some Navy reservists. They were retired guys that were hazing us and just being total dicks. And then these Marines came in that were active duty down at MacDill Air Force Base. So they're SOCOM and CENTCOM there. It's a very important base. So these are some big dogs. And the way they came in, their shoulders back, chest out, the way they talked, you could just feel the confidence. And the uniforms were definitely cooler. That helps. way they talked you could just feel the confidence and the uniforms were definitely cooler and i
Starting point is 00:09:46 said yeah it definitely helps i'm one of those guys where i order off the menu if i see a picture so you know i feel you so yep i got it right there and i said i want to be that one day and i had no idea i didn't know much about the marine corps i was the idiot that asked so where do what academy do the Marines go to? Where's the Marine Academy? And all the kids laugh like I'm a dumbass, but I didn't know. But anyway, so I still wasn't sure what I wanted to do because the Marines were tough. But when I saw 9-11 in that classroom, I'm like, that's it.
Starting point is 00:10:20 I got to go. We're going to war. And I was that kid that I want to go fight for my country. And so the next week I went in. I got my parents to sign the early entry program. So sign me up at 16, but I wait until I'm 18 or until I graduate high school to go. I didn't know that was a thing. Yeah.
Starting point is 00:10:40 So there's a lot of kids that are signing up at 16 years old. The late entry program. That's what it's called. And so I graduated high school a little bit early, went to boot camp. Greatest decision I ever made in my life, other than marrying my wife. But it just set a foundation for me. I wasn't like a really confident kid growing up. I was the skinny, blonde kid. My mom married my dad, who was Italian, big guy. He's
Starting point is 00:11:08 got four brothers, all big alpha guys. But I was the skinny kid that didn't eat too much and needed to toughen up. And so the Marine Corps did that for me. And I served a year and a half overseas in total. And it just gave me exposure to you know the worst of humanity but also the best there were a lot of great things you think of Marines and soldiers just going out and kicking in doors and no I mean we do a lot of humanitarian stuff too so I got to see you know acts of valor and you know heroism that just they were inspiring and i just it gave me purpose in life you know and that's really what i needed and uh we all need that yeah in a way but this is where you found it
Starting point is 00:11:55 yeah a hundred percent and i told my mother i said she begged me because she was a nervous wreck when i was deployed to war sure she was like please just get out and at least try going to school. You can always go back in. Well, no, you can't. I mean, you say that, but it's so hard to get back in. But I did that, and for a long time I regretted it. I was not good at being a civilian. I had PTSD, a lot of anger issues.
Starting point is 00:12:29 Yeah, I was a liability, not just to other people but to myself. There's always somebody bigger and badder on this planet. And I was going to probably mess with the wrong person at one point in life if I didn't change. As far as my animal welfare, you know, what I did to help animals was just going to local New York City shelters because I moved there for a job with the State Department. Can we back up for one sec? Because I don't want to skip over some of the stuff you said. Go for it. We could do a full podcast on your military career and everything there i don't know how this is going to go today but as far as like being one of the people and i mean this in a good way like the stereotype that happened back then where you
Starting point is 00:13:15 know you're right of that age you see this crazy shit in these two buildings that were exploded basically like like the biggest city in the world as i heard people who were on the ground that day basically said the biggest city in the world exploded it was it was nuts and you see all the dust going everywhere and everyone's scared and this awful attack happens on america and that feeling of patriotism kind of mixed with that age of where you're coming into your masculinity you know your will to fight and stuff like that there's so many guys like you who answered that call and so when i think back to a day like that which was a very important day in my life where in my case i was very very little you know i i
Starting point is 00:13:57 didn't experience it that way but i'm curious to know like when you're watching that happen you talked about you were in school and you saw it on the TV and you're like, I got to go fight this. Were you thinking about what you were going to go fight or were you just more thinking like something bad has happened and I need to help? A hundred percent. Something bad just happened and I need to help. I need to. This was an attack. It was clear that it was an attack on our
Starting point is 00:14:25 country right this wasn't an accident i mean you know it was pretty clear when the the only the first plane had hit too uh but we still didn't know anything but then when it comes out like this was you know al-qaeda took responsibility for this um that's like hey let's go kick some ass and like this is the greatest country in the world and you're gonna pull something like that you're gonna pay for it um i i just i don't like bullies i don't right and that was i mean bully is it doesn't do it justice but um now i saw those guys as bullies it was sad sadistic. Oh, 100%. I mean, it was just like, to this day, I still, like, I'll watch it over and over again. And I'm like, I still can't believe that was a thing.
Starting point is 00:15:13 Yeah. You know, like planes into a building. It's just the whole thing. It still does not register 21 years later. Yeah, you don't pull that on innocent people, you know, that can't defend themselves. It's, I don't pull that on innocent people that can't defend themselves. It's – I don't know. There's something about the fact that when you go into the military, you're risking your life for the country. This is a commitment you make, and you know the downside of how this goes is you don't make it back.
Starting point is 00:15:40 That's a decision, though, that you're making. It's not like the old days where everyone just got drafted and stuff like that. So it's an act of courage and bravery. But there's also something to it when acts of war happen, and it's completely directed at the people who were never faced with that decision. They have nothing to do with it. By the way, including some of the people who died in there who were veterans who had left the service. And they're like, okay, well, I'm not on the battlefield anymore. And then boom.
Starting point is 00:16:04 Yeah. You know, it just doesn't i don't know i it comes up a lot on this podcast or different people who were there or experienced it a certain way where it was a life-changing event and it still is just like the psychology around it i think is what i'm trying to say is just wild totally agree with you i mean no i mean i just went down there the other day with one of my veterans who was in town he'd never been there and i mean that's sacred ground it's really unique like you know I mean, no, I mean, I just went down there the other day with one of my veterans who was in town. He had never been there. And I mean, that's sacred ground.
Starting point is 00:16:28 It's really unique. Like, you know, we got a lot of crazy people in New York, but they, even they know you don't mess with this area. Um, and I told him too, if you see anybody screwing around out here, like you say something. Never. I've been down there a million times. I've never seen someone not acting reverent not unique it is and like in the time we live in too you think about it like none of us are reasonable and well some of us are but a lot of people aren't you know people want to make a scene
Starting point is 00:16:58 and get attention on everything it is nice to see knock on wood wood, that that place, you know, when you go there, it doesn't matter how many times you walk through that. Your whole vibe, it's very peaceful, and it's a nice reminder of things. It's not just totally morose all the time, but your whole vibe, and it seems to be the vibe of pretty much everyone there, is reverence and respect. Yep. Cool thing. I hadn't even been to New york until after i got out of the marine corps too i've never been a powerful moment when you went down there yeah they were still um cleaning it up yeah and um yeah i mean i remember it vividly i got out of the subway
Starting point is 00:17:38 station down there i think it was the canal street one the one that wasn't destroyed and just stood there on the top of the stairs and just looked down into the pit. And it was, yeah. Yeah. It's, I still, to this day, I still can't wrap my head around just how huge that that was. Yeah. So. It's a place you had never been, but it was a place that directly affected your life, literally, completely.
Starting point is 00:18:03 Yeah. That's a crazy thought for me to try to understand. Yeah, we're all Americans at the end of the day. We're brothers, sisters, you name it. And we're all a big family here in this country. So we struggle together. We succeed together. And, you know, God, we wouldn't be the country that we are
Starting point is 00:18:22 if we didn't take a stand for stuff like that. Absolutely. But when you – so you went in officially at 18. Mm-hmm. Once you had done – what was it called? Deferred? Oh, the delayed entry program. Delayed entry.
Starting point is 00:18:33 Okay. So you go in. You train, I assume, for like a year, year and a half kind of deal? So boot camp in the Marine Corps is 13 weeks. Oh, that's not long. No, it's the longest out of all the services. Wow. But no, it's not that long.
Starting point is 00:18:48 But then you go to schools afterwards. So I went to infantry school and a bunch of specialty schools. And what was your specialty? I was an infantryman. Got it. Yeah, all day. And so how long until you were deployed?
Starting point is 00:19:00 So I deployed immediately after infantry school. I went on a MEU out of Southeast Asia. On a what? On a Marine Expeditionary Unit, big ship. Oh, wow. Cool. They fill it with a bunch of pissed off Marines and just drive around the world and, you know, waiting to unleash them. And where did you go? Like, what year is this? Was this when Iraq had started or?
Starting point is 00:19:26 It was Afghanistan as well. 04, 05, 06. Oh, you were in both. Yeah. I went to Afghanistan as well. Where'd you go first? I went to Afghanistan first. And what were you doing in Afghanistan? This is very interesting because this was like, for context, We really did a nice job there in the Six to twelve months after 9-11 and then the whole Iraq thing started to happen and that's where this whole 20-year What ended up being a very sad ending began? So you got there after that initial push and after we had gone into Iraq. We had been so I Went to Afghanistan and oh for when they did the big troop surge. Congress sent a ton of Marines out there. And then out of nowhere, they just said, we've got too many guys
Starting point is 00:20:12 here. Let's pull them. And so I only spent a few months there. Justin's my Afghanistan guy over here. But Iraq was my bread and butter, which I would prefer to be in over Afghanistan. Why? I don't like hiking up mountains for days and weeks. Yeah, like what was, at that point, like what was the strategy there? Like what were you, as an infantryman, what were you doing? You're guarding local communities, making sure that, you know, Taliban doesn't come in and abuse these people, because that's what it is, it's bullying to the fullest extent, the Taliban. That's, you know, they rule with fear.
Starting point is 00:20:48 So it's gathering information, but also community building, helping support their, you know, economy. You know, there's a lot of farmers there. There's also a lot of opium farmers there. So trying to turn those into, you know, crops that aren't killing people all over the world. You know, irrigation systems, things like that, ways to support them, because if they're good on their own and you're helping them, giving them a hand up, well, in many cases
Starting point is 00:21:14 it was a handout, but, you know, there's more respect for you. They need you around. So they're going to give you the information that you want in order to go and get the guys that are doing this stuff. You take a good walk through those poppy fields? No. Justin, yeah, it's Justin. Yeah, we're going to have to talk about that when you're on. Some of my guys, like my one guy, Tuna, I can't remember now if he was in it or if he was showing me a picture of one of his buddies.
Starting point is 00:21:44 I think it was was in it or if he was showing me a picture of one of his buddies i think it was him in it but he was showing me a picture just like standing in the poppy field and then there was like some far away shot of what it looked like and i'm like they're beautiful this is where it's all coming from right yeah 80 percent of the world's opium is grown in afghanistan 80 percent wow jesus that's nuts i did i did hit a uh hookah at a sheik's house in Iraq once. Oh, nice. Because you have to. Nice.
Starting point is 00:22:09 And I did not know that there were other things in it. None of us knew. So we had to go back and immediately report that. It pops on a drug test. It's like, wait a second. So I'm in war. I did my job. Didn't know there were drugs in it.
Starting point is 00:22:23 Now you're going to kick me out with a dishonorable discharge. Yeah, what's that conversation like? Like, oh, we just accidentally did drugs? Yeah, we were like, yo, we're actually tripping right now. No, they're actually pretty cool about it. Apparently it happened. Happened to everybody. Yeah, yeah.
Starting point is 00:22:38 Everybody's doing it. That's nuts. So you went to Iraq after like three months you said um so after afghanistan i went back to japan southeast asia i did some anti-piracy work oh you were stationed in japan yeah i lived there what do you mean anti-piracy like actual pirates yeah there's there's a lot of pirates that are um disrupting uh shipping lanes really oh yeah in japan uh southeast asia yeah um i didn't know that the horn of africa haiti or not haiti excuse me somalia um gets all the attention but southeast asia was was pretty gnarly before that kicked off so that's like the whole basically just escorting
Starting point is 00:23:21 the boats in escorting the boats but um also interdiction so if there's like a weird fishing boat that's being you know there could be you know drugs or guns on it um just bad people on it you'll take little swift boats over and you you uh board the boat and you check the boat for you know narcotics or uhry, things like that. I mean, it's crazy because you'll be on a huge tanker ship and all of a sudden you'll see two small boats in the distance following you and it's like, what are you going to do with this massive boat? But they'll find a way.
Starting point is 00:23:56 They'll find a way to get that thing. Sure, that's crazy. Look at me, I am the captain now. What's the jurisdiction like, though, with that? Because I guess you're stationed on a United States base as a Marine, but then you're able to go out there and be the police in that way? It's international waters because it's an internationally controlled shipping lane. Interesting.
Starting point is 00:24:20 So it's not just the U.S. that does it. There are other countries you know um that you know european countries that'll do this stuff that's pretty fucking cool yeah so you're working with a bunch of other places too yeah absolutely and how long were you there doing that uh i was stationed in japan for a little bit over a year um i did the tsunami cleanup in 04 as well that was in sri lanka yeah how'd you end up in sri lanka like oh and that happened the marines there oh they yeah yeah i mean we were pulling bodies out of trees i mean that you want to talk about traumatic that was those poor people we forget about that event i mean i i don't because
Starting point is 00:25:00 some people i know talk about it still because they have ties to sri lanka but like a lot of people like in the media you never hear about that. But I don't even remember how many people died in that thing. But Sri Lanka is effectively a giant island, and it just got leveled by this thing. And the tsunami, if I remember
Starting point is 00:25:18 correctly, it's like a hurricane, but it goes the opposite way. Is that it? Honestly, I have no idea. The tsunami is a big wave. Oh, you're talking about a typhoon. Probably. but it goes the opposite way is that it honestly i have no idea tsunami's a big wave yeah it's just yeah oh you're you're talking about a typhoon probably yeah i'm not a scientist so if it's a typhoon is a hurricane um on the west if you're on the east like or in the pacific the atlantic ocean it's a hurricane so it may very well go the opposite way i should know that but like the
Starting point is 00:25:42 tsunami basically has the same types of effects it's the same family of effects yeah no it looks just like a hurricane on there yeah so you how long were you there cleaning that up uh i was there for two weeks that was it actually two and a half weeks i want to say somewhere around there did we send like thousands of marines in there we did marines sailors mean, anybody and everybody that we could spare to help. Yeah. We were bringing hovercrafts in from the boats and supplies. And I mean, we were digging mass graves. I mean.
Starting point is 00:26:18 That's traumatic shit. Yeah. There was no war involved in this. These are just. Mother nature. Yeah. I think that's the stuff that blows my mind is trying to conceptualize what it's like to just be on an island let's say you work at a
Starting point is 00:26:30 beach resort and you look over the water's getting sucked away and then you look up and there's a wall of water coming at you like you're so helpless what do you do i mean that stresses me out to think about you wait for it to hit hit. I mean, it's a wild thing. I mean, even with hurricanes and stuff like that, like the people who waited out, like, here comes the eye of the storm. Yeah. Like, I don't think we have a concept, most of us. I definitely don't.
Starting point is 00:27:00 Like, when I'm just sitting around during the day, like, I forget about it. But you can't beat nature. No. Like, you can't beat nature is a, whether it's species themselves or, you know, like, the craziness of the elements around us. Yep. That shit gets on you, like, that water's killing you. That avalanche is killing you. She's in control always.
Starting point is 00:27:21 Yeah. Whether you believe it or not, she is. Yeah. And you know a lot about that, doing what you do. But I guess sometime after that, like after Japan, you went full time to Iraq? Yes. So I served in Ramadi. That was my last deployment.
Starting point is 00:27:37 What year? Oh, 5-06. It was intense. Now, that was right before we got Al Zikawi right? Yes and I actually I chased him too. Really? Oh yeah he
Starting point is 00:27:51 he there was a time we almost got him and you want to talk about seeing what the US military can do what the US Marines can do like with the snap of a finger this was badass. so we have this vehicle checkpoint um and he's in one of the vehicles they couldn't get turned around so they pulled up to
Starting point is 00:28:13 the vehicle checkpoint and these dudes take off jump out of the car he dropped a laptop which we got they oh yeah in this wait i know about this chase you were in this so yeah i was in support of it yep no i was right there dude out of, and it comes in on the radio, and then there are Amtrak tanks, the amphibious tanks, just flying over the Euphrates River, running over cars. Not cars with people in them, but literally going over. I hope not. Yeah, shoot. But literally driving over cars to go and get this guy, and they had him held up in the hospital over there. And it was just a straight shootout.
Starting point is 00:28:50 They had a whole team of dudes there firing out of windows. If I'm remembering it correctly, it was like they had that – they had intelligence pretty – for relatively speaking, like pretty far ahead of time on that. So that was really that was pretty well planned and then somehow he got away that was there was a book black flags by joe b warwick who he won the pulitzer prize for it's a fucking amazing book it's all about like the it's called black flags the rise of isis and it's all about alice calloway and how he was the guy who built this thing and so the one one of his sources was the woman at the CIA, Nana Bacos, who chased him.
Starting point is 00:29:31 And so they're going through all these stories. I read that like six months ago or something, but I remember reading about that chase, and I'm like, fuck, got away again. You know what's crazy is that checkpoint, too. I'm pretty sure the Marines that set the checkpoint, it was a snap vehicle checkpoint, so it's unscheduled. It's not a planned thing. They're just told, hey, go to this road. They could be out on a patrol, right? Or whether it's a mounted vehicle
Starting point is 00:29:55 patrol or a foot patrol, and they'll get a radio in, hey, just go do a checkpoint and stop cars here and search them. Pretty sure, don't quote me on this, that it was a snap checkpoint and they had no idea what it was about. Because they didn't want the information getting out there. But the tanks were already on standby and ready to go. I mean, they were scrambling fighter jets. It was cool as hell. I mean, I get chills thinking about it. That's like a dream for a Marine.
Starting point is 00:30:24 It's like chasing a ghost, too a marine it's like chasing a ghost yeah literally like chasing a ghost that guy was a nasty nasty person it was a bad straight evil hey guys if you're enjoying this episode please be sure to share it on social media and with your friends sharing these episodes around is the best possible thing we can do to spread the word about the show and continue to get great guests like this. So thank you to all of you who have been sharing the show each week. And thank you to all of you who are going to do it now. Also make sure you hit that link down in my description and get your own eight sleep pod pro cover today for $150 off using code trend to fire. It's the best possible investment you can make in your sleep total game changer. You're
Starting point is 00:31:02 going to love it. So check it out. Once again, that's code trendifier t-r-e-n-d-i-f-i-e-r at checkout to get 150 off your eight sleep pod pro cover order yeah straight evil and he took advantage of you know we fucked up a lot of stuff i mean we shouldn't have been there in the first place but once we got there you know basically removing all the bathys from any government position and creating all this sectarian violence. And then this guy comes in like a vacuum and just says, oh, oh, you don't like the Shiites either? Join the crew. including people who were like formerly perfectly normal people living a happy life and now they're pissed off because in this case not the color of their skin but the the identification of their religious tribe is now said no like you're not allowed to do this you're not allowed to be involved in your country at all i mean of course they're gonna get pissed off and this guy took
Starting point is 00:32:00 advantage of all of it it's crazy like i didn't know anything like i knew who he was i did not understand how much violence and control that he was responsible for from let's say like the end of 2003 through his death in 2006 in building iraq into this giant hellhole basically at that point and then you know what he built ended up becoming what we would see in isis that's a crazy thing to me yep and they're a different breed than the you know al-qaeda's twisted obviously they did 9-11 but these guys like yeah um they kill you in in just the most twisted morbid ways um it was it was wild but my first um i was a point man when i got over there in that deployment meaning i was the first guy to go into every house on a patrol oh you were doing
Starting point is 00:32:53 the house patrols yeah oh yeah we were hitting houses we were hitting targets um fbi's most wanted list um which is more than 10 people but we had those posters everywhere in our compound it was it was cool i used to have one but by the way with this thing right here i just see you playing with it all that just do that if it starts to go out and i'll like tuck it in the side of my chair like i just see it like it's probably going in and out so i just want to make sure is that good yeah all right cool but you were saying you were on deployments you had had the pictures of the most wanted guys. Yeah, and I actually had brought one back with me, and then I lost it. I had a house fire.
Starting point is 00:33:30 You had a house fire? Yeah. An airplane hit my childhood home. What? Yeah. Everybody was okay. We lost our animals, though. Yeah.
Starting point is 00:33:41 An airplane hit your house? Yeah, it was a King Air 90. We lived by a small private airport. And he came out of the clouds. He didn't even know the airport was there. He knew the general area. And he had engine failure on one side and not enough power on the other. And he came in and was trying to get a stretch of field to land into in the and uh the right wing i think it was hit a palm tree and directed it into um into the house it launched right in the house the the co-pilot actually fell out of like he
Starting point is 00:34:18 got out and lived what yeah he lived yep yep In a plane crash? Yep. Pretty crazy. I don't even know if I've heard of that. Yeah. Probably heard of that somewhere, but they had a house. Yeah, and I was actually in the airport because I was on the rifle range all day teaching marksmanship. So you can't have your phone. You're not supposed to have your phone on you.
Starting point is 00:34:45 A little flip phone back then. And my phone is going off non-stop i'm like shit shit like something's going on i had 80 missed calls non-stop and uh so i told you in the house my my mother was in the house she got out though because of where it hit in the house yeah and she says when she ran out the door she tried to go back in to get the animals and she couldn't even get the door open because the suction and um and the neighbors were pulling her away yeah oh that's brutal yeah she dealt with a lot because of that i'll bet that's like that's some serious trauma right there yeah yeah but i was in the airport coming home to support and i'm sitting there
Starting point is 00:35:25 waiting to board my plane and i'm watching on cnn my my home that was your house yeah this this woman's like oh my god a plane hit a house i'm like yo that's my house she was like that's not funny and i'm like no that that's literally my house i'm watching you're watching burned down and you had you had a chance to talk with them yet on the phone at that point? So I talked my buddy. Who was it that answered the phone? I want to say it was my buddy, Rick. Great high school name, too, by the way, Rick. I answered the phone like, yo, dude, what's up?
Starting point is 00:35:57 Why are you calling me? Why is everybody calling me? He's like, dude, your house, it's burning down. A plane hit it. And I'm like, bullshit. And he said, hands the phone to my dad and he said yep i'm watching our house burn down jesus christ man all right sorry i had to ask you no no yeah it's crazy something about like planes and buildings and houses with your life
Starting point is 00:36:18 did a lot did a lot to you but that's not the first time i lost everything too then a couple years later i lost everything in the nashville flood so now i don't buy anything nice all right yeah yeah don't if you're by next door i'm moving now i'm out of here i'm gone but i'm sorry you were the point you were making with this was it had to do with the wanted posters you said you lost them or something oh yeah so we were going out you know hitting targets. And the first big target that we went to hit that I was appointment on was a bath party member. And we hit that thing hard, too. No shots fired, nothing. But I was so amped up because, you know, you're thought to think, oh, bath party member, this is a bad dude.
Starting point is 00:37:01 That was Saddam. Yeah. The bath party, right. Yeah. And so I went in and I saw saw a guy i tackled him well i checked him with my rifle and uh i felt terrible because he's an old guy but i was so amped up and i zip tied him so tight because of adrenaline that like we had to carefully cut the zip ties off because like we not get them. It was bad. But no, so I'm in the command center later. I finally get to call my parents in there, and I'm like, yo, turn on the news.
Starting point is 00:37:34 You're going to see the report. But that was us, and it was pretty cool. So you were doing – like that was your whole job when you were there. You were doing these house checks well high value targets but we were all no we were also patrolling the neighborhoods and you know if somebody wanted to pick a fight you know we were getting into firefights and things like that what was it you know what was it like it's such a dumb question because it's so broad there are no dumb questions but well thanks for helping me out. But I do wonder, like, oh, I got to get you water in a second. I'll do it when you're answering next.
Starting point is 00:38:08 But I do wonder, like, how do you get in there after this is, like, this powder keg has started to explode where it could be any house, literally. It's like someone who was a Sunni and now they're pissed off. So how did, like, the government try to organize this? Because it was our decision to not allow any Ba'ath party and therefore any Sunnis into the new government, which didn't see how that could have gone wrong. But they do that and now they have the two sides set up. You have the sectarian violence were the was was there like an internal feeling that like all right the rabbit's already out of the hat let's just like try to clean shit up and nothing good is going to happen and we'll get out of here as soon as we can or were they actually still
Starting point is 00:38:53 thinking no we can make this work we can make these people set up a solid government where everyone's included eventually and like they're all happily ever after so i think that the idea of the brass and the big wigs that are calling the shots you know sitting behind desks all day and you know sitting in a house of representatives or a senate you know um i think it was their idea that we can fix this or that we have to fix this where we have to at least show that we're trying but you can't force feed something like that you're just gonna make people push away from it. But no, I mean, the guy's actually going out and, you know, blood, sweat, and tears all over that country.
Starting point is 00:39:35 You know, we're sitting there like, this is a total, this is screwed. Like, it's never going to happen. I mean, you got guys pulling up on vehicle checkpoints with car bombs, for God's sakes. You think that that kind of culture just goes away? And I'm not saying the culture in general in Iraq was like that, but you have, there's a bad influence in this country, an evil influence. Somebody is in here. There is a bully in here. You can't see them, but they're here,
Starting point is 00:39:59 and they're not just going to let you get away with this. They're not going away. These are brainwashed people you you know get away with this they're not going away these are brainwashed people you know it's a scary thing to think about because you know if you have hope in people you want to believe that there's things that can change but sometimes you do have things where just on a large population basis i'm not saying there aren't individual cases where there there could be exceptions but the trains left the station you know what i mean and you can't as much as you want to say oh wow i really want to save these people like even if it was somewhat your fault for making it happen it's done you know and now the the battle is a survival
Starting point is 00:40:43 for you guys while you're over there and b try to make this as clean as it possibly can. Try to put as much of it back in the hat as you can, but know that you're going to have a lot of damage on the way there from the people who are there. It's a wild – to this day, it's a wild concept for someone like me to think about who wasn't there. And it's something that in the history books, they're still going to be trying to make sense of the downstream effects of this 50 years from now. Yeah. I mean, we're still writing checks today and we'll be writing checks for it tomorrow and, you know, probably the rest of my lifetime. You know. It's a crazy thing.
Starting point is 00:41:19 So you were there for like a year, something like that? Nine months there. Okay. Yeah. And you were saying there was firef something like that uh nine months there okay yeah and you were saying there was firefights all the time yeah i mean shoot i've that when i knew that i had had it and i'm like yeah so first of all before we went they explained like when they said you're going to ramadi we all looked at each other and we're just like shit like so we looked at each other
Starting point is 00:41:45 and we didn't nobody said anything but you could see the look in everybody's faces like looking at each other like some of us aren't going to come back right like I was I was young um but I knew like I had to get comfortable knowing like hey there's a chance I'm not going to come back. I convinced myself, hey, I'm probably not going to come back. So make this worth it. Was that to anchor your expectations or was that literally you talked yourself into that and you really believed it? I really believed that, yeah. And I think that we all did for the most part.
Starting point is 00:42:28 I mean, what way to live is that? I mean, no matter the situation that you're in, like, yeah, I'm going to die here in the next, you know, or I don't want to die. I don't want to, you know, then you're not actually fighting the war. You're fighting to stay alive. Right. And then you're not fighting for your brothers that you're patrolling with. And that's what you need to do. Screw the political BS.
Starting point is 00:42:48 Because I heard what you said. Yeah, we shouldn't have been there. Back then, I'm like, hell yeah, we should be here. This is important. Now I'm like, you know what? There are so many lives that didn't need to go. I've got buddies that left behind kids. My buddy Frank freaking died and his wife was pregnant and never got to see his daughter
Starting point is 00:43:06 and he had a three-year-old already and so i look at these wars and you know these politicians and you know we've got everybody over here like yeah ukraine it's like well wait a second are you gonna go fight it because if you're not gonna go fight it keep your mouth shut keep your mouth shut yeah i think it's it's effed up what's going on but you know what i'm sick and tired of losing you know young brilliant strong americans because you know of some political agenda i'm over it agreed and this happens when we're talking about this because you don't always get the context and stuff but i do i'm glad you pointed that i i want to be respectful about that because i remind myself i sit in an armchair you know like i i wasn't i
Starting point is 00:43:50 wasn't in it and i have my opinions on things when i think there's a lot of evidence but what i always do try to make sure to say because i believe this a thousand percent is that none of the people who were there fighting in iraq and i'm only talking about iraq with this afghanistan i believe we should have been there but with ira Iraq you guys are following orders you have a job to do you go over there you're not in Washington DC making those decisions you've signed up to protect this nation wherever the call comes and you go over there and you do your damn job and there's a lot of heroes that went over there and I appreciate the fuck out of that so I want to be very very clear on that politics and what the guys have to do and face when they get in there are two very very different
Starting point is 00:44:28 things to me and I think I speak for a lot of people when I say that well I appreciate that and I I strongly believe that you do too um and the thing is like what am I going to do say no I signed up to do this with good intent and even though I believed at the time had I not believed in the war you know okay, okay, I'm not going. Well, you're dishonorably discharged. That's like being – I mean that's like the worst felony you can get as a civilian. You can't even work at 7-Eleven if you have a dishonorable discharge. Oh, yeah.
Starting point is 00:44:55 No, it's insane. I didn't know that. I mean it's – well, I guess it's not hard to get one. Just go out and be a complete derelict and you'll you'll probably get one but yeah no you're you're it's not like a standard felony that you can just get erased in most cases i didn't know that that was like a personal record thing i thought that was a military record thing oh yeah no it's out there you can't get a concealed yep you can't get a concealed carry permit um really legally own a firearm. Yeah.
Starting point is 00:45:25 If you get dishonest and discharged. So imagine that. Let's say you go in early. You go in at 17, 19 years old. You make a stupid mistake. Everybody does. And boom, all of a sudden you're tossed out. You got no money.
Starting point is 00:45:40 And you can't get into college. You can't, you know. I met guys that served in Iraq or Afghanistan, great Marines. And they come back and they get popped for, you know, doing drugs or something. Should they be doing drugs? No, but they're also coping with some serious stuff that they've seen. I got a problem with that. Yeah.
Starting point is 00:45:58 There's a difference between someone being like a criminal and like killing people and laughing over there and like actually committing war crimes. That's a whole different thing yeah but like like you said 17 18 19 years old i was a fucking idiot at that age you know what i mean and now add like combat experience ptsd all this shit god knows i got a problem with that i don't i never knew that before you go to war and you come back and you're you know you're i think emotional intelligence or something your program like somebody who's you know 60 70 years old in the brain because of what you've seen it's not it's it's like being a 75 year old man in a you know 25 year old's body you've seen some stuff you've seen more than a lifetime of things now did you
Starting point is 00:46:47 when you finish up it you finished up in 06 in Iraq uh yes and did you retire from the military from the marines at that point so I finished the marine corps in 2007 and then officially out of the reserves in 2010 i think it was so you got called out of iraq and then yeah the end of my deployment was there um was where was like they that was the end of my deployment and then i didn't i didn't go back after that got it now did you were you at peace with that was that your decision or were there because we talked about a little bit at the beginning, like some things you were dealing with. How much did that make the decision versus like, I feel like I've served my country and time to move on with the second phase of my life? I was content and had closure with my time in serving the Marine Corps. But probably the biggest thing that still weighs on me is um i was called by a captain that i served with and he said hey tate we're spinning
Starting point is 00:47:52 up again with a different unit we're forming and um it was going to be a mounted truck hit uh team with um one of my gunnery sergeants that I was very close with. And he said, I want you on this deployment. And I had been home for two weeks. And I'm like, no, I don't think I can do it. I need to go and party first. Like, I needed to let loose. Like, I was, it sucked.
Starting point is 00:48:19 When you're going to war and you're deployed and you're seeing your buddies from high school, you think it sucks. They're out having a good time in college and like you just you get tired of the bs in the military it's not you know i love the marines at my level but then you know they start playing stupid games with you and you know you just you just put up a lot of bullshit and that's why a lot of good marines leave the marine corps in time thank god i really you know screw it i'll say this stuff because i i love the marine corps yeah i'm not mishearing everyone yeah i love the marine corps but it's you get those players in there after you've you've been to war you've you've hustled you're tired and then you get some you know guy
Starting point is 00:49:03 that joined the marine corps or the military because he wanted to get some power and then you get some you know guy that joined the marine corps or the military because he wanted to get some power and then he's you know snaked his way up the chain and now he's he's going to show you that he's got the power like you know put your cover on and like dude i just got off of a freaking combat patrol i just gotta have a firefight there's blood on me right carbon all over me and you're telling me that i can't walk on this base with my helmet on it's 125 degrees out like that's the kind of stuff i didn't want i was gonna snap and i did snap at one point on some people um i'd like i had just had it and um but so i i decided hey no i don't i don't want to do that deployment and then then his name is Gunny Merkison. Called him Merc.
Starting point is 00:49:53 He ended up getting shot in the head by an Iraqi police unit that he was embedded with. Who was that? Iraqi military. Gunnery Sergeant Merkison. And who was he to you? He was one of my gunnery sergeants. He was a great man and left behind two kids. And I used to watch SEC football with him on Saturdays. And, yeah, he was like a father figure in the military for all of us in the unit.
Starting point is 00:50:13 And I said, you know, you start to deal with that guilt, like, you know, what if I were there? Maybe I would have seen something coming or we would have been able to identify this insider threat. And, yeah, that one's a tough pill to swallow. or we would have been able to identify this insider threat. Yeah, that one's a tough pill to swallow. I should have manned up and gone, but you can play that game all day, and I know that there are a lot of veterans that do that kind of stuff. You've got to take life on life's terms,
Starting point is 00:50:40 live life on life's terms. It sucks, but there's nothing you can do about it now no man and and i hope for you and say this to any veteran of the many who deal with the same kind of what if on some things like when you've served your country you've been around you were all over the place too like you really hit the map around there like you know that's something 99.9 of us are never going to do you know you did that shit you did it when you were young you gave up college to go do that you know you said i'm gonna go fight for my country and you go into the most dangerous of areas you help protect against the most literally the most dangerous people on the earth. And the mentality that that builds up, like in anything in life, when we spend six months,
Starting point is 00:51:32 nine months, 12 months, 15 months, 18 months, this is a lot of time in an environment if we go to one place or one type of place, right? Where everything that that we know that's long enough that it can get rewired that shit can happen in in six months it really can like i was on wall street two and a half years ago less than that actually because i left right before i launched this thing i don't even remember that you know what i mean like and i'm just some douchebag sitting in a studio but like when you think about every day your protector is the man next to you and the gun you carry, and you're going into bumblefuck wherever. In some house, you don't know if there's car bombs around, like you were saying. You don't know if they're wired to explode or if you're going to get ambushed in there.
Starting point is 00:52:17 And you're living with this every day, almost like that. I'm putting words in your mouth, but almost like that we're dead walking around here you know and now suddenly you got to come back to tampa yeah right like that's that yeah it's wild and they just like they do the the three-day taps class that that teaches you like how to get into the workforce when you get out and then it's like wait three days huh and half of us are like trying to like sneak out of this class because it's so stupid so boring but um well intended but it's three days yeah good luck teaching them getting a bunch of marines to sit still and listen to you tell us how to get jobs and build resumes you just left the war zone yeah yeah and now i mean you're hyper vigilant other, too, because your brain has all these new doors that it's letting adrenaline out of.
Starting point is 00:53:09 And then you come back, those doors close, but you still have all those chemicals. Right. And so they're just waiting to explode. I don't want to just put the label on it, but were you aware of some PTSD tendencies immediately? Or did that take a while to realize like, oh, I'm reacting to things in non-normal ways because, you know, I'm not from a normal background here? Yeah. That's a great question because most people assume it's just automatic, but there is a delayed onset in many cases mine was six months literally like on the dot that i really had my first episode what did it um some guy was disrespecting a a woman in uh jacksonville beach and i was out there with some buddies and i was a construction worker whistling at this girl. And my mother was single for a while, so I witnessed that as a kid.
Starting point is 00:54:06 And I don't get down with that. And I just tripped. Dude, I was trying to get to this guy and rip him apart. And God forbid had I. I don't claim to be this Billy badass or anything. But when you flip that switch, a lot of veterans have that switch. You don't want to flip it because it's hard to turn off. And when I freaked it, it took so much out of me. Like I was scared. I was shaking. And you know, I've had those episodes later in life
Starting point is 00:54:38 too. You know, that's why I'm a big advocate of mental health. Like I go to my therapist, even if I'm in Africa, I zoom into my therapist she is awesome oh yeah no there's nothing this negative stigma about therapy that you know that boomers culture in a sense i feel like that's that's going away it should go i do feel like people i talk to more and more people because i've talked to therapists in my life it's a huge help like i think it's a great thing and and i always love hearing people like tough guys too oh yeah draw attention to it it's a great thing yeah if you're a veteran and you're struggling or it doesn't it's not just war that gives you ptsd i mean my i know my mother struggles with it from when that plane hit the house there's there's other people anything traumatic especially from
Starting point is 00:55:17 childhood you know go to a therapist that's shows maturity yeah if you're uncomfortable with it good because that's how you grow in life is being an uncomfortable situation so get comfortable being uncomfortable and get in there and work on yourself did you in that situation that the first episode where it was you it was a construction worker whistling or whatever when i talked to guys they described these things very similarly like where that switch goes off. And it's usually, it's actually usually something like that. It'll be like my friend Jim DiIorio talked about one time where a guy pushed a woman. Next thing he knew he was on top of him. And like,
Starting point is 00:55:57 you know, it was ugly. So I guess the question is like, they always describe it as you go blind and then once it's over then you're like oh oh shit you go red yeah did you did that happen yeah the only thing that i remember is looking at him upstairs in the the building that he was building through the window it's still plywood and everything and i just started analyzing and i'm i'm walking to the house calmly well i was screaming at him too a little bit like you just stay right there and um don't move yep i'm coming yep brace yourself um oh he's on a roof too oh he's on the second floor he was he was gonna be on the ground outside of the house on the first he would have learned he couldn't fly yeah Yeah, yeah. And I'm looking at the house like, all right, what's my entry point?
Starting point is 00:56:48 And I can see because not all the walls are up either, like the plywood outside. And I'm like, okay, there's a stairwell there. There's one back there. How do I get up to this guy? And it's just like being in that combat setting. That's the threat. And now how do I neutralize that? And yeah, it was scary.
Starting point is 00:57:05 Did that start happening, that kind of thing? Maybe not quite to that extent, but did that start happening more, like a lot after that? Yeah, I had some anger issues. I just didn't understand how to be a civilian. In the Marine Corps, in the military, but especially the Marine Corps, if there's a problem, you fix it right there. Let's just do this. Get it out. We're the smallest branch. We have the least amount of money so you got to fix these problems on the fly you can't let them build up we don't have the money for that we don't have the the manpower we
Starting point is 00:57:36 we don't have time for that and yeah it you can't operate like that in this million world. And what kind of jobs did you take? You said you and I had talked. You ended up working at the State Department in security. But is that what you did like right away? Or were you doing other things in between? No. So I was a day trader for a bit.
Starting point is 00:57:59 You were a day trader? Yeah. Yeah, I made good money. Yeah. How'd you get into that? Well, because I always wanted to. I was always intrigued by it from middle school. I got a middle school class where they had the simulator on the game,
Starting point is 00:58:14 and they gave us a certain amount of fake money, and I'm like, this is so cool. I love this. I have ADD to the point where I need a puzzle. I want to critically think here and figure out how to solve this. I see problems as challenges, and i enjoy finding the solution to it and um so the stock market was just something that i could control on my own and make money on my own and um so yeah i would play that game i studied the stock market through high school while i was in the marine corps i was reading books on it and then i made my first trade i want to say at 25 and it was a huge huge margin it was amazing and that was after you had left yeah because you got in young i keep i'm trying
Starting point is 00:58:59 to remind myself yes you're doing all this shit in iraq you're like 22 yeah wow 1920 yeah i had birthdays in war zones jesus yeah those are great places that were how long did you day trade again i day traded i mean i still dabble in it um i day traded for two and a half years and i realized and i also enjoyed it because i became i've always been an introvert like i was the kid growing up my parents would take me to a party with their work friends, and I would hide in the coat closet the whole time. I'm surprised at that, actually. Yeah, I've come a long way.
Starting point is 00:59:33 Yeah, you've come a real long way. Thanks, Iraq. Hey, you got something out of it. There you go. So, I mean, my safe place is a cave. I can lock myself in my office, day trade, whatever. I don't have to deal with people. That way I'm not having episodes where I'm freaking out on people or getting angry.
Starting point is 00:59:55 I'm not stressed out. I mean, my blood pressure, the first time I went to the VA to get registered was through the freaking roof. It was like 180 over, you know, 130 or something. They're like, dude, you could literally die right now if you don't like calm the hell down. But anyways, with day trading, like I didn't have a life. Like I was up for pre-market trading,
Starting point is 01:00:20 after market trading, after after market trading. I hated the weekends. I was calling investor relations phone numbers and badgering these people. I had a line of questioning so I could figure out how to get some type of hint on something. You wanted the edge. Oh, they hated. They have to answer the phone. They do.
Starting point is 01:00:40 And I guarantee you they're like, oh, it's this freaking guy again. But I loved it. Not great for your blood pressure. No, it's not're like oh it's this freaking guy again um but i loved it not great for your blood pressure no it's not no it it's not i would do that and the only time i get out of the house is is i would go work out once a day for an hour during while the stock market was on lunch break get the physical activity okay you're working in during lunch break i like that but like yeah most of the guys when you talk to and they day traded you know didn't end well so yeah you're you're the exception there that is especially today i mean at least you were doing it before we had insane levels of like high frequency trading and stuff but like even in the 2000s that shit was hard like it's it's literally you're in there all day and you're
Starting point is 01:01:24 getting you're taking enormous positions with huge sums of money and then basically before settlement, moving it. Or you're nervous overnight while you're holding a position because you're moving in big volume over time. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, dude, I was doing penny stocks too. Crushing it. Absolutely wrecking it. It was amazing.
Starting point is 01:01:43 Airtime International. Yep. Penny stock with huge potential upside.ushing it. Absolutely wrecking it. It was amazing. Airtime International. Yep. Penny stock with huge potential upside. Do it. You don't have the feds looking at you. You're gonna want to trust me on this one. You don't have the feds looking at you, right? What's that? They're not gonna make a case on you from back then, right? Oh, God, no. So make sure we're free. Yeah, no, no. Go for it.
Starting point is 01:02:00 Go for it, guys. You're doing nice things now. Yeah, I spent all that money on BetPol. So you do that for a couple years, and then i guess that's when you got into the whole state department yeah like what led to that so um i was applying for jobs everywhere because i knew like you know i i can't do this forever and i was cocky to where i was like well i can i can place my trades and set my um you know all that, and I'll be good. No, that's not how it works. Uh-uh.
Starting point is 01:02:30 No. That's weekend warrior stuff where you're not going to make anything. So I was applying to jobs like Lockheed Martin, Boeing, security jobs. Not the guy that's wearing the uniform. No disrespect to them but i was not gonna wear like a mall cop uniform or something like that um i love mall cops though um however i wasn't getting anything and that that really pissed me off because why i dude it's i mean the amount of applicants they were probably getting to
Starting point is 01:03:05 but like i couldn't even get a response like there's gatekeepers and it's like you know when you think about these young kids coming out of the the military well first of all they're not kids anymore i mean they're they're grown-ass men yes um that found their inner monster now we just got to teach them how to control it um but that's front, that's door-kicking diplomacy, I call it. These guys, we had to go and kick someone's door in, raid their house, perhaps apprehend or detain, you know, the man of the house, take him in for questioning. And now we've got to still patrol that neighborhood
Starting point is 01:03:41 and make these people our friends. That is a talent. That is a talent that is a talent you go into their home with you know m4 grenade launcher and kit it out we come in peace yeah and now all of a sudden like the next day you're patrolling by like hey good to see you again and uh but no we do it every time you have to relationship build or those people they're gonna let you know al-qaeda in here and next time you kick that door in there's gonna be a grenade at your feet the ironic thing is that can cut both ways and what i mean by that is when you open up a relationship on the basis of fear and then pull off that you can create in a similar
Starting point is 01:04:28 psychological vein as like the helsinki syndrome or whatever you can create a friend but you could also create a massive enemy and someone who wants to watch you burn so it's like you're kind of in a no-win situation there because you do have to do this but you know i i guess you make as many as many of them friends as you can but then you use them and in the chess piece of this whole thing to make sure that you get intelligence to avoid all all the bad guys pretty much yeah i mean you also have to be you know always remember that it's their country this is their land you know you have to respect that's their country. This is their land. You have to respect that. So, yeah, you're going in their door, but you're doing what you have to do to stay alive.
Starting point is 01:05:09 But you need to do it with a level of respect. Like, don't go in there saying, you know, calling names or, you know, get the F on the ground. It's, you know, get on the ground. But, like, there are second and third order effects of of any sort of disrespect like you know i hear a lot of young marines especially like those that haven't gone because this generation that is that's in the marine corps now you know a lot of them signed up to go to war and and serve their country inspired by you know our generation and they're not so they have this like killer mentality they call marines killers like literally a conversation in the marine corps walking by someone is kill and the other guy
Starting point is 01:05:49 goes kill and then you keep walking like that is how they program you and so they have this mentality like god i can't wait to get to war and drop but not now if i hear that uh-uh don't you diss uh-uh don't you say that war is not a good thing i shoot i had a i had a trunk in my room in the in my barracks room with stickers all over it and one of them was give war a chance marines need jobs like how stupid is that and now i'm like embarrassed that i even had that because i went to work yeah you were young war is hell yeah you don't listen i think as you get a little older you don't have to be there to know that yeah and and even if you can't appreciate it you should probably if you're a guy like me a civilian you should probably listen to the guys like you who
Starting point is 01:06:36 came back because they all say the same fucking thing they all say that to a man like this is not there's nothing good about this. No, no. And most of them know it's implied. They know not to say it around our generation. Yeah. Don't do that. That's going to be a real quick punch to the mouth.
Starting point is 01:06:58 But on the contrary, were you one of those guys, because I hear this all the time and I get it, and I don't have a problem with it either. It's just an interesting psychological concept. But were you one of the guys that when you got there, when you first deployed, got to Afghanistan, you're excited, like you belong here. This is what you want to do. I was excited going into the Marine Corps. I did volunteer for Afghanistan and Iraq because my timing was unique. So I was missing the units that I was going to. I was missing their deployments by like a week.
Starting point is 01:07:37 So I was volunteering and getting sent to other units. And so I was volunteering. And not going to lie, sometimes when you raise your hand, they're like, cool, sweet, you're going to the Philippines. And no, it didn't happen to me. But so I raised my hand. I remember they're like, Tate, you, you, and you. And I'm like, then they say, they don't tell you where you're going.
Starting point is 01:08:04 And then they say, you're going to Afghanistan. I'm like then they say they don't tell you where you're going and then they say you're going to Afghanistan I'm like shits real now mmm now I got to tell my mother uh-oh like life hits you quick real quick and I wasn't I wasn't afraid I wasn't. Like I'm trying to put myself, you know, in 18, 19, you know, 22 year old me.
Starting point is 01:08:30 It's a, it's a eerie feeling. Like you're kind of excited, but you're also like, oh shit. Like I may not be here in a year. Yeah. Like what are the effects that this is going to have on my little brother and
Starting point is 01:08:47 sister who aren't going to grow up with a older brother? You know, like if I die, you know, my parents are going to have to live with that. Um, it's a second and third order effects. Cause those are the ones that really,
Starting point is 01:09:02 yeah. Like, you know, I'll let Justin speak for himself, but for me, it's like ones that really yeah like you know i'll let justin speak for himself but for me it's like if i die you know it's it's over but it's not over for them right you know so the whole community gets rocked by that do you struggle sometimes with this is another one i hear about all the time the survivors guilt of things because you're over there you watch friends die you know you've talked about it a few of your friends like
Starting point is 01:09:31 they left kids behind they have kids they never met like is that was that something that you dealt with that then also contributed to you know how i, dealing with that mentally is impossible in some ways. I did. I don't think you'll ever come to terms with it. It will always kind of linger. I'm in a good place now about it. But, yeah, I mean, there were situations where a bullet missed me by less than an inch, like went through my pack.
Starting point is 01:10:02 I mean, I took my corpsman uh my navy corpsman great corpsman too and i sat him in this unique position while we were doing a vehicle checkpoint snap vehicle checkpoint and i thought it was a great position so i lowered him into it with the handle on the back of his vest and then as i'm stepping out of it and my hand is still in the handle, because he's got the huge pack and I don't want him to fall down this berm, just snap, snap, snap, bullets land all around him. And I ripped him back up. And it's like, holy shit. He would have been dead there because I put him there. Like that one is, those are the ones that you start to overthink. I mean, I've been in
Starting point is 01:10:46 situations where, you know, we were doing, you know, an OP, an observation point. Nobody's supposed to know that we're in this house. It's an abandoned house. We get information that dudes are doing weird things there. And then, you know, some kids walk up to the house because they're coming to fix it up because their family's going to move into it. We had no idea they're coming and they slipped away. My guy was going to grab them. We're going to hold on to them in the house because they're coming to fix it up because their family's going to move into it we had no idea they're coming and they slipped away my guy was going to grab them we're going to hold on to them in the house for a little bit so we could finish up what we're doing we're there for nine hours these kids come in then they go he's not able to to detain them so they were running the village and they're yelling marines marines in the. And they told everybody, next thing you know, the loudspeakers are going off.
Starting point is 01:11:31 How many were you at the time? There were six of us in one house and three of us in another house, or four of us in the other house. Not a ton. Yeah, but the first thing they teach you too is like, if you're compromised get up and leave oh well we have been fighting for long enough and we're like they want to fight let's go let's do this and so we stayed two hours later you start seeing guys get dropped off but you're not really sure we didn't have access to aerial surveillance and um dude they brought they oh yeah oh i mean they made it rain on us
Starting point is 01:12:07 how many people dude i mean you'll have then they brought in a drone um i mean they're talking like close to 100 dudes were on their way um and then our qrf our quick reaction force i don't know how those guys and these are my boys that just aren't on patrol at the time. They're hauling ass out. They're getting slammed by IEDs everywhere, but they're somehow, they're just missing. This is why I believe in God, because this, you can't make this up. And they got there so freaking fast. It was unbelievable. So we brought everybody home. We awarded a lot of Purple Hearts from that. A lot of my guys took shrapnel and bullets. Yeah, it was a wild time.
Starting point is 01:12:56 But anyways, my CO, my commanding officer, pulls up on the road. So I run up on this big berm. And he's like, which way they go? I said, sir, we just saw about 20 guys running down. pulls up on the road so i run up on this big berm and he's like which way they go i said sir there's you know we just saw about 20 guys running down and that way we're going to chase these guys down into this valley these farm fields because they're trying to get to the euphrates river to cross it because then they're home free um so as he pulls off and this is a tar road and we have what's called ied countermeasurement systems they're they call them ice
Starting point is 01:13:25 machines and they work so they jam the cell phone waves because these guys are calling the ieds to set them off i didn't know it we were literally i was standing on top of an id that they paved underneath the asphalt and so as soon as that humvee pulled away and I'm stepping off of the road, they blew it because the system was too far away. And I went flying off of this. Dude, there's dust everywhere. The hole in the ground had to be nine feet deep. Holy shit. They had blast plates set up, these big metal plates to direct the blast up to take down a vehicle.
Starting point is 01:14:03 Had they not had the blast plates i'd have been done and so i just sat there for a minute um got a little bit of blood on me and all i hear in my my pir my headset set is worst hate worst hate this and that but like and you were okay you were i mean i i had a concussion but i I mean, I'll take that all day. But I rethink that one a lot. I'm sure. Because those things don't always work, those ice machines. And I mean, that's a full truck. My commanding officer is in it.
Starting point is 01:14:37 They'd have been done. I mean, they would have blown that Humvee as heavy as it is, sky high. Wild. they would have blown that humvee as heavy as it is sky high wild so but you got to use that as a situation to say hey i'm pissed off and now now i'm offended now i'm insulted yeah and to wake up the next day and go do it again but yeah there were so many situations where myself or one of my guys just shouldn't be here. Absolutely nuts. Yeah, anyone who goes into combat, like, I've never talked to someone who doesn't. It's a wild west.
Starting point is 01:15:12 Doesn't deal with that, doesn't, hadn't seen that. You know, if you see that kind of, if you're not lucky to get the deployment where it's in a non-war zone, you know, and those guys deal with stuff, too, because they have friends that go into war zones. I mean, and then they're not there, you know. It's a wild thing. And the brotherhood of it, you know, being in something like that is one of the unbelievable positives
Starting point is 01:15:34 that comes out of it. And that's also, you know, we're going to be talking about what you guys do today. It's like this beautiful thing. Yeah. That wouldn't have been possible without your experiences. Which is really, really cool.
Starting point is 01:15:45 But we got onto that talking about the whole State Department thing. So this is like four or five years after you went into the Reserves? So I went into the State Department in 2009. And when you say you went in, because you've been applying to all these places they weren't saying yes and then you get hooked up with the state department somehow like what did you go right into security working for them yeah so i had actually and it was uh there was a new york position available too and i had just visited new york um this was my second time there the first time when i saw 9-11 a couple years years before that, it was Times Square and just the touristy stuff.
Starting point is 01:16:29 And I was like, I can't do this. But the second time I went, it was actually pretty cool. I saw it from a New Yorker standpoint, perspective. And so I was like, you know what? I think I want to do this. I want to try this. I want to try to do New York. And honestly, I think that New York is what kind of saved my life to an extent.
Starting point is 01:16:53 I love New York, so you're speaking my language. Dude, I honestly, at the end of the day, I'm from Tampa. I live in Salt Lake now when I'm in the States. And I love Salt Lake. We moved there for my wife's job, by the way. Priorities, baby. Yeah. Good for you.
Starting point is 01:17:08 Hey, happy wife, happy life. That's it, man. She's the best. But New York forces you to deal with triggers. There are so many triggers. But New Yorkers, as a culture, teach you just keep walking keep moving forward they don't turn it they don't they don't blink at stuff and so when i was in these you know other cities or other cultures throughout the country you know i'm dealing with you know your average society
Starting point is 01:17:38 um you know and that you'll hear lights and sirens every now and then or whatever. Or you might see a crazy person like once in a blue moon. No, no, no, no. In New York, you're dealing with that all the time. And you're not going to talk shit to anybody. No. Because you're not a New Yorker yet, and all those New Yorkers will band together. I feel like after 9-11, everybody's just, you know, New Yorkers look out. Yeah. So, yeah, it just kind of taught me to toughen up and get thicker skin. I feel like after 9-11, everybody's just New Yorkers look out.
Starting point is 01:18:09 So yeah, it just kind of taught me to toughen up and get thicker skin. And God, I wish there should be a study on this. I've said this for a while. They should just move. They got to put some things into place before they do this, but move some veterans after they come back from war to there because it will, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, it makes you you it forces you in a good way to to adjust to adapt yeah and that's what we say in the marine corps adapt or
Starting point is 01:18:33 die now you got to adapt or die in the civilian world and that's the tough one the nice thing about it too is there is something of everything in new york every culture religion race creed whatever from around the world has some sort of representation there so when you're moving around you're constantly moving in and out of different environments and the one thing that brings everyone together is this city which is why you know when we're sitting here watching the pandemic unfold is heartbreaking seeing that like seeing that place silent i i will never that will never be an image again yeah it in a in a different way absolutely it's it's this image you can't get out of your head because you're like wait a second this is fucking new york you know we don't you know we're not we're not scared of anything there but it it was a wild
Starting point is 01:19:24 time obviously when that was going on and i'm glad to see that now starting to become that city again and people are out and about and doing their thing and this is really interesting how you put that with veterans having some sort of program where they could be around new york because you're so right man like you're i could see some of it depending on the guy in the case and what what that veteran dealt with like i could see some of it going the other way because sure there's a lot going on but as a as a broad as a broad requirement being around people you know not necessarily like you know i i like it how in new york someone says fuck you
Starting point is 01:20:03 you know when i go to florida and they're like opening doors for me i'm like did i do something like you're gonna you know what i mean like there's just something to that you like it because everyone's still like they respect each other yeah it's this great environment so that's that's a really cool way to put it but you were saying as well that there's a lot of triggers in new york and i i didn't want to stop because you were explaining but what what specifically like what kinds of things for a guy of your background would serve as daily triggers around there uh one would probably be the um the smells um i remember going out you know leaving base um when the sun's setting like and it's it's already set but there's still a light out and um there's just like eerie feelings like the city's a little quieter. When things get quiet, you, like, there's a good chance something's going to happen.
Starting point is 01:21:09 And, but, they would, the bread makers, they would burn the grates that they would cook the bread on. They would burn it, they'd set it on fire and burn it. The grates? So, like, they would, the ones that they put in the oven to set the bread on to cook it. Yeah, like the wood thing? Not the wood thing, but the actual thing, shelf in the oven. Oh, right. Okay.
Starting point is 01:21:31 Yeah. I don't know what you would call that. We'll go with grates. Yeah. And that smell just, I mean, it just gave me a weird feeling and so in new york especially in touristy areas the guys that do the pretzels that burning bread it just like immediately my brain would go back to thinking about you know those patrols and it was it was pretty trippy um yeah i got um so there's that i mean just rude people that don't, like disrespectful people.
Starting point is 01:22:07 Like the construction worker. Yeah, yeah, there was a cab driver once. I got in, it was almost really, really bad. And by the way, I don't like to fight. I don't, I've come a long way. This is a long time ago, so I'm not, you know. That's okay man it's but i remember he um it was my job to know manhattan and the boroughs like the back of my hand because if you're in motorcades you got to know the ins and outs oh yeah specifically when you were in new york working with the state department were you doing like the liaisons to the un is that what this yeah yeah so that um shit but um like susan rice, I was on her detail for a while.
Starting point is 01:22:47 She was the US ambassador to the UN and then the national security advisor. Yeah, I was going to say, she was the advisor. She's such a kind woman. She was an absolute delight to be around. That's awesome. I know a lot of people get political with this stuff, but politics aside, don't do that.
Starting point is 01:23:06 She was a great person to me. That's great to hear because you always hear the stories of the people where it's the opposite. That's what people talk about. They don't talk about the positive experiences with that. I tell you what, though, I wouldn't mess with her. She's like four foot nothing and she's intimidating as hell. Well, look, I mean, to get National Security Advisor, no joke, man. Yeah. Kind of stuff you look I mean to get National Security Advisor no joke man yeah kind of stuff you gotta do to get there and the
Starting point is 01:23:29 business job to be at the UN and hold your own yeah yeah you got a you you got to come in with a with a type a you know aggression delicately diplomatically excuse me but anyways it was my job to know the roads and how to get places the quickest, right? And the safest. What are you looking for? When you say safest, like what kinds of things are you, let's say you have, I'll just give you an example.
Starting point is 01:23:57 Like let's say you have Susan Rice staying on 53rd and 7th and she's got to get down to, what's un 30th or no it's uh 45th and first all right 45th and first are you is there specific things you're looking at on certain streets like stores that are there that you don't want to go and buy because there might be people of a certain you know less amount of political interests around there yeah the less amount of vehicles uh around the better not just for for speed but the the gridlock is, I mean, that's a choke point. You don't want to get stuck in traffic with cabs this close to you. I mean, it's a bulletproof, not a bulletproof, it's an armored vehicle.
Starting point is 01:24:37 And it had, like, glass this thick. But still, you just don't want to take that chance. And how many cars would you put like if susan rice is going from that hotel to the un how many cars are in her motorcade uh with susan it was only two to three lead vehicle and you know rear vehicle i don't know what it is now and i probably um if i did i wouldn't share it just because right right you know um i might actually have to watch that one um but anyways if i'm'm going from there, I'm using West Side Highway hitting 34th because it's the widest street. And then if that gets jammed up, though, I mean, we'll go the opposite way on a one-way in New York in a heartbeat.
Starting point is 01:25:17 Oh, yeah, we part the sea. We'll drive on sidewalks, whatever we need to do. You worry. I mean, you got to worry about civilians and stuff i mean that kind of case uh yeah and we do it safely you know we've got lights and sirens going yeah we do it safely but i'm not gonna if i can if i can keep from sitting still and getting you know stuck in one spot i'm gonna move i'm gonna do whatever i can to get around it i was thinking you were like just out of nowhere like you, you know what, hook a Yui on
Starting point is 01:25:45 this one. That's good. Like bad boys or something, you know, flying and jumping over bridges. I'm like, you would have hit me. Like, I'm the guy walking around there. I'm done. That's crazy. Yeah.
Starting point is 01:25:56 So, and you were the guy planning all this too. Yeah. That, I helped plan the, you know, all of the, towards the end, because I was done working those hours. It was insane. I started doing the planning for UNGA, the UN General Assembly, and the security details coming in and all the diplomats and their entourages. Oh, wow. That's a cluster right there.
Starting point is 01:26:21 Oh, yeah. It's a lot of people. There was a month out of the year that like i was working 24 i was sleeping in my cubicle i believe that's how many people like i never i've never googled this but like with the un obviously we look at stuff happening there all the time there's a lot of people but most of the nations around the world are in it. And then like on a regular, on a Tuesday, you know, during not peak season, like how many people from all these different countries are walking into that building? Hundreds? I mean, thousands.
Starting point is 01:26:54 Wow. Yeah, daily. I mean, then plus you got the tourists that come in and tour it. But yeah, it's a lot. It's a lot of people. So was your work on this always, you were up in New York with the State Department the whole time? Yeah, I mean, I went on some trips here and there, but mostly New York. I was able to keep myself up here.
Starting point is 01:27:13 I was trying to go into the U.S. Marshals. We were talking about that the other day. That was a dream job for me. And I pulled my application from after it got accepted to actually start VetPaw. I mean, that's how much I wanted to do this. I think it's time to go there. I think we're right on the doorstep. So let's do it.
Starting point is 01:27:34 Let's go all the way in. Yeah. I'm excited about this. Did that – not necessarily vet, Paul, but what year did you have an understanding of I want to work with animals and I want to move towards doing something like that? Or was this more of like a – it came together? You know what? I'll shut the fuck up. Why don't you explain how this happened? So I've always been in love with animals always um you know when i would have
Starting point is 01:28:09 a bad day growing up like i had this spot underneath my bed that you know nobody knew that it was even there and i would climb in there with you know one of my cats or dogs throw on some headphones and my little cd player uh yes i'm old um and i would just sit in there sometimes sleep there all night and then i would get up before my alarm before my parents could make sure i'm up for school and jump back into bed but animals have just always been there you know um being that introverted scared kid growing up you know that animal was always there i wasn't afraid of them um and i always had i don't afraid of them. Um, and I always had, I don't know, my, my grandma, my Nana would always tell me, she's like, you just have this
Starting point is 01:28:49 gift with animals. I'd always be able to call that cat over that, that, um, that nobody could, you know, pet. And, uh, so yeah, I'm an everyday animal whisperer. Okay. Um, but I, you know, as far as my animal welfare experience, I already had two adopted cats, 25 pounds each. 25 pounds? Yeah, they were big boys. One of them was big in a good way. The other, we called him our fat boy. He was precious. And then I rescued a two-year-old Rottweiler.
Starting point is 01:29:25 He was 80 pounds when I got him here in New York City. And he grew to 125 pounds within a year and a half. Wow. And so in a tiny... He was a nice dog. Yeah. And in a tiny Queens apartment, I had three animals. There were no more animals.
Starting point is 01:29:40 I wasn't even supposed to have the Rottie there anyways. But my landlord was cool. I just had to pay him off. And that was it. so i would just go i couldn't rescue any more animals so i would go to local animal shelters photography has always been a hobby and a passion of mine um this is while you're working at the state department yeah yeah and i could be a pro photographer but i'm not a sellout so i won't touch that one but go ahead but uh anyways so i would go to the shelters like walk the dog play with the dog and then snap pictures of him outside and happy or the cats playing and i'd give them catnip and you know get great pictures instead
Starting point is 01:30:18 of them in a cage or a kennel they put it on their website or social media and the adoption rates go up that actually works. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. So if you can't adopt an animal, but you know how to shoot photography or you're a TikToker, go to the local shelter and make some videos and help these people. And that was my mentality. And then I watched – Anthony Bourdain was a hero of mine, a mortal hero of mine. He was awesome. Yeah.
Starting point is 01:30:46 And I have very few of those, so I don't say that lightly. But I watched his very first show on CNN of Parts Unknown. It was on the Israeli-Palestinian conflicts, and he used – what was so unique about that show was he would use cuisine and local food as a way to uniquely and delicately relate it to each culture's side of the conflict. He was so cool. Yeah. I mean, he set the path for the rest of my life. I read all his books, all that.
Starting point is 01:31:20 I used to go to his restaurants in New York, eat oysters, all that, in hopes that maybe he'll walk in. Never happened, unfortunately. But, yeah, he's a legend. I don't think we'll ever have another one like him anywhere close to it. But I watched that show. Amazing. And I wasn't tired. I actually had to be up early the next day to go to LaGuardia to be on the tarmac for Secretary of State Hillary Clinton coming in.
Starting point is 01:31:51 But I wasn't tired, so even though I had to get up at 3.30 in the morning, I'm going to watch this thing coming on next, which is about the Tusk Trust Foundation, what the royal family is doing in Africa with them to preserve and protect African wildlife. So I'm the type of guy where if I can't do something about it, abuse, whether it's people or animals, but especially animals, I don't want to see it. I know it exists, but if I can't do anything about it, why torture myself? Because I was still in a mode where if i see it and it irks me
Starting point is 01:32:26 that much i'm gonna try to maybe find this person you want to go fight it oh yeah yeah you torture a dog well stand by warrior mentality yeah no it's like how do you like it um and uh so i started watching this show and it was cool and you know I honestly didn't have an interest in really going to Africa because I've been overseas so much. I'm just like, you know, I'm going to stay home. I love my country. Stay into the mic if you don't mind. Yeah. So I had this mentality of not wanting to leave the country.
Starting point is 01:32:58 After having served and doing all that, I was tired and I just wanted to enjoy my country the one that i fought for and this documentary they had no no uh hints that any type of animal abuse would be in there holy shit it rocked my world the first and this was three punches to the face in a row. Boom, boom, boom. The first one was an elephant laying on a tar road. Well, asphalt road. We call them tar roads in Africa. No face.
Starting point is 01:33:37 The trunk is set. There's no eyes, no mouth, brain. It's blood and flesh and there I remember there's there was a tan land cruiser sitting there and and it was a huge elephant massive and immediately I want to cry right now thinking about it yeah and then the next scene were dead park rangers laying in a row. And now all of a sudden. They were showing this on TV. Yeah. Good.
Starting point is 01:34:08 Yeah. Good. And now I'm like, okay, this is a war. This is more than just about animals. This is dangerous stuff. Yeah. And then the third one was a female rhino. This was a video.
Starting point is 01:34:28 And I remember it vividly. It was just like I remember 9-11 they the poachers got tranquilizers they acquired tranquilizers off the black market because the gun goes bang and you can hear it a tranquilizer gun makes a very soft noise nobody's gonna hear it they don't hear it the Rangers aren't alerted they do their thing with ease take all the time they want they're out so they put this girl to sleep her calf went missing in the bush eventually they found the calf dead because it needs its mother's milk and it'll hydrate and it's hot and she woke up missing her horn nasal cavity is fully exposed there's blood it's just a gross scene and i say that without no disrespect to that animal and all of those emotions from war and as i watch dude there were tears just flowing I mean, literally, I remember seeing the
Starting point is 01:35:26 drops and all of those emotions that, just like Will Ferrell says in the movie, I put a glass jar of emotions, you try to cope with it you think you're doing better so, oh yeah, I don't need therapy I don't need any of that stuff, man
Starting point is 01:35:43 I'm doing great, no, I was miserable and i had no idea i thought i was happy but i was actually miserable and i was taking all that you know i still had some anger but like just the depression the anxiety um there's a lot of just humiliation and confusion and embarrassment even of going to war that you experience. It's not the traditional way to explain it. And you just put it in that jar and you super glue it shut and you just plan on coping. But eventually something's going to bring that out.
Starting point is 01:36:19 It's going to shatter that jar. And that rhino, while she may have been you know, may have been killed and passed on, that rhino saved my life. Because that rhino shattered that jar. And in that moment, I felt everything that she felt, in a sense, without the pain, but in a different kind of pain but I saw embarrassment I saw humiliation the confusion the the sadness like where's my baby and I was embarrassed at humanity like we are the most powerful species on this planet and that animal a dinosaur this beautiful mother just got tortured essentially died the most could you imagine having your face cut off and living and then just having to die a slow death yeah and that's the other thing while your child's missing and when you're watching this video, she's still alive. She's still alive.
Starting point is 01:37:25 And they were filming it. And God bless them for doing it. I don't know how they did. But I had somebody say, like, why would they film that? And I'm like, thank God they filmed that. Because people need to see that. We need to thank, those people are heroes for filming that. What are they going to do for it?
Starting point is 01:37:41 They're waiting for veterinarians to get on site to put her down. And you know what? People got to see that. What are they going to do for her? They're waiting for veterinarians to get on site to put her down. And you know what? People got to see that. And if I ever find out who did film that, I'd hug them because, I mean, I would still probably be living that miserable life. And now I get to actually have a purpose of going and saving animals and empowering veterans to do that. But it was in that moment. And I'm telling you, I was punching walls. I didn't sleep probably for weeks. I called out of work for five days. This is on Friday. I told them that I was sick. And the special agent in charge calls me up on Friday. He's like, hey, dude, you got to come to work on Monday. I was like, I don't think so. And he's like, no, seriously, you need to come to work because they're going to take um uh they're gonna punish you if you don't and i'm like so i'm talking to my mom she's like you can't
Starting point is 01:38:30 go to africa and she'll tell you now she's like i knew that you were gonna go like i knew it because i'm stubborn as all hell and um but some people um you know my buddy brent had said to me he was like dude you work at the state department that a powerful place. Why don't you just go talk to some people and maybe there's something that the government could do. And so there was a U.S. ambassador to the U.N. for, I want to say he was for management and reform. His name is Ambassador Joseph Torselli. He's actually the Pennsylvania's treasury secretary right now, I believe. He was one of those guys when I was working with him and going places with him, he didn't treat me as like some of the other diplomats do. He's like, you know, if you're one-on-one with him and driving him somewhere, he's sitting in the front with you. I love that. Ryan, what's going on?
Starting point is 01:39:25 This and that and so I felt comfortable to go to him and I said sir um ambassador like are you aware of the poaching thing that's going on and um he said no why what's up and I just kind of spilled it out for him a little bit how long is this after you watch that oh dude this is maybe a month because I was already rounding up like the marines that i served with like yo dude you want to go if i get this funded do you want to just go over there and kick so right freaking ass oh dude right away when you watch this you're like we're gonna do something oh yeah yep and you're like you don't really know what i did not but you're like we're gonna do it oh i didn't care if i got fired i didn't care uh if yeah i was broke i did i had. I didn't care if, yeah, I was broke. I didn't care if I died doing it.
Starting point is 01:40:09 Like, I was ready to go Jason Bourne on the bush. And I had no clue about what was going on over there yet. So I wanted to get on the ground just to see it and observe to see if the skills and experience that I have from war and from the military apply here. Can we go back to seeing that rhino for one second? Like when you were first watching the doc? So you described that really, really well. And one of the things, one of the terms you used a couple minutes ago was, that's a dinosaur right there.
Starting point is 01:40:38 And I'm glad you did that because when I look at rhinos and elephants especially, that is exactly what I think. Like they don't – it's a majestic creature. And they even have that thing, especially with elephants, but you could say it with rhinos too, where they're so big that like their motions look like they're in slow motion. It's like they're larger than life. They look how we would look to, you know, how we probably move to some insects and stuff. You know, like we probably move really slow to them even if we're walking fast or running.
Starting point is 01:41:14 I never thought about that. Right? I don't know. With the insect thing, I've never thought about that. That might be the dumbest thing I've ever said. I don't know. But that's like how it appears to me. And so it adds this element of almost like their whole life is in 18 frames a second,
Starting point is 01:41:26 like an old school movie, you know? So I love how you looked at it and had the emotion as if it was a human being dying, because to me, the full theme that I get seeing, and we're going to talk all about the poaching and how this all works. Like some people are like, well, why was it dying? We'll get into that. But like, when I look at the populations going down because these animals are being slaughtered,
Starting point is 01:41:49 let's call it what it is, it's brutal slaughterings, it's like we're taking away our culture as a people. These are species that if we rid the world of rhinos and elephants and our kids don't know about it, forget what will happen to the ecosystem. We'll talk all about that today. But we are getting rid of the history that has built the earth as we know it. We are all originally from that part of the earth before everything started to separate out. We lived among these creatures.
Starting point is 01:42:19 We still do. We have continents where these creatures are. There's people living there. And it's like, did you look at that and have, obviously you were very emotional, but did you have like, you felt like you lost a human being looking at that? Like, was it on the same range or was it, what was it? I had what's called the flattened effect, which I still struggle with as a result of trauma and PTSD. And when I say trauma and PTSD, it's not in a poor me way. Like, yeah, I deal with it. I don't need sympathy or empathy for it. I just, something I deal with. So the flattened effect is I don't get, I don't go either way. I've got a baseline that I stick to.
Starting point is 01:43:05 I don't get super happy or really sad. And I go numb to things. And it's something I'm working on. I'm in a lot better position now. But if it had been a human, I wouldn't have blinked an eye. And that sounds really, really morbid, I guess. But, you know, and I've had people say, you know, in the past, like, you know, we've got problems here in the States and, you know, you're going over there and doing that.
Starting point is 01:43:28 It's like, well, wait a second, you go serve, sacrifice, you know, what we've sacrificed as veterans. And then when you get out, you can do that on your own. But if, you know, armchair quarterbacking is not a good look, bro, so back off. But now it's animals. I looked at that in the same way that I looked at 9-11. People that were defenseless, being attacked, had no power over that. None. Totally surprised. That animal had no defense.
Starting point is 01:44:02 No defense. And it was, you know, the two situations, I don't compare them in a way that's like one's worse than the other. They're not comparable. But to me and who I am as a person and being a kid growing up that didn't have a lot of confidence. I wasn't a big kid. I was too skinny all the time, didn't eat enough. And now, like, I went in the Marine Corps, I came out, I'm always say now that husband is my greatest title. I love my wife. She's amazing. But outside of my marriage, being a Marine is once a Marine, always a Marine, and we live that. And so I walk that. When I walk out in public now, I'm a Marine at the end of the day. I'm a Marine. Yeah, I'm Ryan Tate.
Starting point is 01:45:04 I'm the president of VetPol and the founder, but I'm a Marine like yeah I'm Ryan Tate I'm the president of that Paul and the founder but I'm I'm a United States Marine um that was my first big achievement in life it's where I learned how to stand for the the defenseless and in this case not just the defenseless but the voiceless and so I looked at that animal the same way that I sat there powerless in my English class watching so many innocent people die. And when I watched that in English class, I did something about it. I built up the courage the first time in my life to, to take a chance. It was uncomfortable, but I was comfortable being uncomfortable in that situation. And, you know, I had known that the state department, you know, it was cool first walking around in a suit and you got an earpiece,
Starting point is 01:46:00 whatever, driving armored vehicles. But I, after a while, not long, long it wasn't it wasn't a while i realized man this sucks it's middle of the summer it's hot um i'm dealing with bureaucrats all day a government that just like it's a government yeah like i'm a critical thinker yeah yeah they don't have emotions and nor should they but you know i'm a critical thinker so i'm bringing in all these things oh we should do this it'll make us work more efficiently we were you know it's the 08 housing crisis and we're in debt and i'm like no christmas trees for this office this year because that's money we shouldn't be spending right now like this is that you know um and of course the the office bought a christmas tree so of course they did yeah of course right right? Creature of habit. Oh, yeah.
Starting point is 01:46:46 You're kind of answering the question for me. I just want to make sure. This might have been before camera at some point or early on. I'm not sure what because we've been spending the day together. But at any of those jobs you had, even just working as a day trader where you had success and then working at the State Department, did you never feel a sense of purpose compared to what the marines was and now this was like oh now i wow this has purpose right
Starting point is 01:47:13 here zero purpose zero and i was trying it's trying to force a you know a square into a round hole it's not going to happen and i was trying to force that myself like i'll go to college i'm going to do this i'm going to make so much money and i'm going to have a you know my dream was to have a sport yacht like a smaller one and i buy all these real estate properties in the caribbean and you know airbnb them out and i just drive from one god i would have been miserable um money is not happiness no it is not yeah and there's that saying well you don't have a yacht or you know you know this or that you know look at what i bought no bullshit i have i actually have empathy for you yeah um there's nothing making money and having a purpose
Starting point is 01:47:59 for people that are donors those are not mutually exclusive you can find your happiness by supporting we need those people i mean without without these people i don't do what i do so they they enable uh our veterans we're gonna talk about them today too yeah i i like how you put that you you're saying that you can like with money it can help yeah it's it's not going to get you there and temporary the people who accrue a lot of money and therefore let's call it what it is we know how the world works you have some level of power whatever that is the people who do that and then put that to work to do good things in the same to contribute and make better the environment or things in other environments that that they would like to see that they would have loved to have around them while
Starting point is 01:48:50 they were on their way to making money you know what i mean it's like this if that makes sense that's a convoluted way of putting it but it's like this cycle of of trying to say like all right i've been i've had the privilege of being able to work hard and do what i do and make all this fucking money and now i'm going to make sure that it's even easier for someone in the future so that maybe people who didn't have an opportunity will now have some sort of opportunity and even in something like this with vet paul it's like well maybe i can help out an entire an entire continent's culture to say nothing of the rest of the world like what if what if that helped their economy 20 30 years from now yep you know this is this is a
Starting point is 01:49:26 this is a good slippery slope right here that these people do so they we'll talk about them later specifically but they deserve a lot of credit and i i noticed that a lot from people like that absolutely the wildlife is the one natural resource that you can't take from africa transplant somewhere else like if you don't protect it where it is now, it'll go away and it won't come back. Yeah. Extinction is forever. Yeah. So you went to this guy Torricella, you were saying.
Starting point is 01:49:53 Joseph Torcella, Ambassador Joseph Torcella. And I haven't been in the government in a while, so I don't know what you would call, I guess, Secretary Torcella. And I said, sir, you know, like like i said he's one of those guys where you just you don't feel like you're talking to an authoritative figure he just he's genuine as a leader and i love that like um and without him there's no way we'd be sitting here right now either there's so many people that have played this you know roles in in the success of that paul and and um and you're still actively working when
Starting point is 01:50:26 you talk to him for the first time too yeah you're on the job like hey by the way i'm probably gonna be leaving here to do this so yeah you want to help me out that's pretty cool he's like bet yeah bet right um so we should make a shirt for him that says bet on it i'll design it for you thanks man figure it out appreciate that but yeah i went to him and i said sir um do you have like 15 minutes 10 15 minutes i can stop by your office later um i just got something that i want to tell you about because my buddy brent was like and he my buddy brent was most of my friends thought i was nuts they're like that'll never happen yeah i hear you that sucks but this will never work this idea of
Starting point is 01:51:05 sending veterans out there but my buddy brent said brent dixon he said dude i believe in you in this i remember standing on his rooftop deck in the lower east side or excuse me the east village and um i told him about it and he could as an actor he could see like yo he's not an actor and he's really screwed up about this and you gotta find that person to support you because you can't do it on your own always i mean some people might be able to do it but it helps and just because you meet 20 200 people that don't believe in you there's still somebody there don't don let that, do not let that in your dreams or your, like, if it affects you so much that it hurts right here in your gut, that is your brain dumping chemicals that are telling you, you need to do something about this. And if you don't, my biggest
Starting point is 01:51:59 fear is not dying. My biggest fear is dying with a regret. and that would have been a regret had i not done it had i not done it and you know what had i done it and failed i would have kept trying it and kept failing until i died i would have died trying and you had never been to africa never that point right and i just told someone too they were like yeah we're thinking about playing on a safari we should take some friends this and i'm like nah dude i'm good i'm good no you needed to see something alive there you needed to see yep yeah i feel you so you you talked to this guy that's a month later how soon until like the concept of vet paul so so ambassador torcella said you know what let me do some research on. Because he actually gave me the time of day
Starting point is 01:52:45 and didn't just yes-man me. So he actually looked into it. All of a sudden I get a phone call at my desk and it's his secretary that says, hey, can you come down here in like five minutes? Ambassador Torsella would like to see you. So he sat in there and he goes, Ryan, there actually is a serious problem out there,
Starting point is 01:53:05 and there are certain people in the government that have noticed this. And he upped my security clearance so that I could review some information in a SCIF, which is – SCIF stands for? Secret something. Yeah. Anyways, it's a place that you can – it's soundproof. You can't – Secure viewing.
Starting point is 01:53:24 Yeah. I should know what it stands for sensitive compartmented information facility yeah something that is it yeah yeah yeah skiff yeah okay scif yeah so he reviewed uh or he got my security clearance up i had already had a t um top secret sci which is the highest standard and then he got another one up so that I could review some other documents and information. And so I put together a proposal. He said, put together a one pager and a three pager and bring it to me and let's see if there's anything that you can do in an official capacity.
Starting point is 01:54:02 Oh, so he was thinking government. Yeah. You know, chances are slim, but you know what? He's not going to, he's not going to shoot this down because he's just not that kind of guy. Right. You know? And so I put together these proposals.
Starting point is 01:54:17 He sent me throughout the government to meet with people because if he's an ambassador, you can't turn them down. And what i started noticing was the state department is an absolute minefield they're like who's this guy that works in security details stepping on our territory and they gave the initiative so president obama came out he said we're going to designate 12 million dollars to supporting um anti-poaching in africa and counter-trafficking of wildlife parts in it from Africa. $12 million doesn't sound like a lot, and it's not, but hey, at least he put something
Starting point is 01:54:51 towards it. Because nobody else seemed to give a shit. It's not here, it's somewhere else. It's a, yeah. So, Ambassador Torsella noticed this minefield and how I kept getting tripped up. So in the meantime, he's introducing me to ambassadors for the UN, to the UN from these African nations, and they all got it. Every single government official that I met with related to their presidential administration for their president to be reviewed on if this is something they wanted and they all wanted it. All of them. They got it because it is a serious problem. However, while that's going on, I take the day off on a Friday. I go down to DC, take the train down there, and a civilian capacity. I'm not working. No State Department.
Starting point is 01:55:48 And I go into the public forum, President Obama's public – it's a public forum on President Obama's Council for Wildlife Trafficking and Anti-Poaching in Africa. Oh, so they were doing something on this. They were discussing what to do with the $12 million. So I go in and I was going to ask a question towards the end. There's a Q&A for the public. I put my name on the list.
Starting point is 01:56:15 Ryan Tate didn't even put State Department on it. And all that I was going to ask was, how much of this money will be designated to training Rangers in a bush capacity, like a soldier capacity, because they're the ones dying. The park rangers. Yeah, the park rangers. Yeah. And that's all that I was going to ask. How much of that? I'm just curious. I wasn't
Starting point is 01:56:38 going to fight it. If you said zero, okay, cool. Good to know. And I had an assistant secretary of state in her entourage. There was one woman in that entourage that literally the most disrespectful calls with her because it was their territory. State Department's agency for oceans, science, and they focus on oceans. Got it. How the hell that relates to this i have no idea so then we'll find a way yeah yeah right so right before the q a starts they all walk up to me this whole mean girls club and they said uh the assistant secretary of state says, I see that your name, you're Ryan Tate. I said, yes, ma'am, I am.
Starting point is 01:57:36 I see that your name is on the list to ask a question. Is that right? And I said, yes. She goes, what are you going to ask? And I said, how much of this money is going to go towards training rangers, the ones that are dying for this? She said, that's inappropriate. What? You are property of the U.S. Department of State.
Starting point is 01:57:56 And if you ask that question, you will be fired. She said, I need it in writing by Monday that you will stop what you're doing, this little crusade that you're on. And go back to doing your job. Completely in shock. Now all of a sudden. I don't know how I kept my mouth shut. It was the first time. I've been in that type of situation. And stayed tactful.
Starting point is 01:58:19 Cool calm and collected. Because this wasn't about me. This is a movie scene. This is like a stereotypical, written in page 10 of the script, then Jason Bourne goes off and does some shit. This is like, wow. And here's the spit in the face. As she walks off,
Starting point is 01:58:37 this woman that had been giving me a hard time, that's part of her entourage, Christine, I'll just leave it at that. So I'm going gonna meet her one day and I'm gonna say ha ha look we're doing it but she said and by the way we thought about it and veteran skills in your experience has no place in Africa it doesn't translate and walks off and I'm like you oh like thank God my mother's not here she would freaking drop kick you well that's also like the level of intelligence on that statement is not high yeah yeah so i did you know what
Starting point is 01:59:14 that's a good way to put it i have empathy for her now yeah that's that's not uh pretty counterintuitive when you think about the skills you guys got to do out there. They look at numbers and spreadsheets. They have no idea what skills we have in the first place, let alone what we're going into. So yeah, it wasn't about actually saving the animals. It was about, nope, I just need to do something that looks good and that we'll get promotions, we'll get bonuses, we'll get, you know, I don't know, longevity, sustainability in our career. I'm going to bless you because you understand how politics works. Oh, yeah. I learned the hard way, man.
Starting point is 01:59:50 You're in, my son. I learned the hard way. I'm jaded now. Yeah. So what I did was I went over to the White House and talked to somebody that I know in the West Wing, not the president. I'll just leave it there. So that was hashed out though apparently um i don't know the details of it but it was good it didn't work well for them there
Starting point is 02:00:12 was a combination i wasn't the only person that was burned but i went to work on monday and i quit i turned in my resignation papers and i said screw you like that's. Like, that's, I mean, dude, that's part of the journey, though. Absolutely. I mean, that's the moment. That's the day you actually took the step. But when you did this again, like, Bet Paul wasn't a thing. You hadn't even been to Africa before. Your buddies, now, one thing you had going for you that you've mentioned is your buddies
Starting point is 02:00:41 had said, tell me, I'm going. Like, they were in, the ones you had talked to. For the most part, I know a couple of their wives were like, absolutely not. Big, tough Marines, some of the hardest dudes I know. Yeah, no. So not all of them, but some guys were. Yeah, most of them were, yeah.
Starting point is 02:00:57 I'll do it. So what did you do? Like how fast did this come together? I just started going to Africa on my own. And I stayed in touch with those ambassadors that ambassador torsella introduced me to and so i got a president presidential invite to tanzania and they said we want we want our rangers to operate like marines and i'm i actually kid you not, I laugh similarly. No, I'm picturing.
Starting point is 02:01:29 That sounds awesome. I'm like, all right, dude. Well, let's do it. Thanks, dude. Cool. I'm just glad you didn't say Navy SEAL like everybody else does. I love SEALs. But yeah, it was cool.
Starting point is 02:01:42 It was really cool to hear that. And so I just started observing teams of rangers sleeping in the dirt. We were going out on patrols in areas. They didn't have guns. They didn't have guns. We were making arrests. Were they got bow and arrows? No, so they didn't even have that. So we tried to get them paintball guns.
Starting point is 02:02:04 They got caught up in customs so so what we do we went in and um we went to the hardware store and we we got broomsticks and spray paint and electrical tape duct tape and all that and then we cut them up and made them look like guns spray painted them and arrested poachers with them this is what you guys train with as what like there's some training exercises you have to use like the like the wood gun or whatever yeah okay and these were rangers so i mean i was also with government rangers but these were ones in community conservancies like corridors that are in between the huge parks but the corridors are where there's
Starting point is 02:02:41 less that's where the the animals are most vulnerable because they don't have these big rangers teams they don't have the assets and resources that they have so these community rangers that's why i was taking so long to get the guns they've been government rangers they're supported by government rangers but not federal government um you know their municipal government got it okay there's a lot of details to go through here so i want to lay out the land so that everyone can get on board like we we know your story. We understand why you were going over there to do this. There is a poaching problem. That's been the big elephant in the room, no pun intended. But like when you went over there and met with the president in Tanzania, you said you went over alone. But like at that point, did you have anyone with you once you got that meeting sure so i would take a medic with me every time it's smart someone from america a veteran yeah okay yeah we weren't getting paid or anything most this was yeah pretty much all of it was my money and so the only thing was we're gonna give these park rangers the wooden guns and we're gonna train them as to how to look convincing
Starting point is 02:03:42 so we did that yes um we did do that but then we were also training government rangers in massive parks over there okay so those are people who were armed yeah i was going to anybody yep they were armed i was going to anybody and everybody that would invite me to come and observe or help okay that changes things so i'm forgetting there's also a lot of that so you did have official people like on the ground. And once again, like, these countries, you know, there's a few poachers in there who are bad people, and they're causing all the problems. But these people, by and large, they want these animals, they love this, you know, so they're motivated. So you don't have a problem getting, you know, recruiting people to be rangers and stuff like that obviously right no and the coolest thing was that when they found out that i was a veteran a marine corps veteran and that i had served in the middle east they were blown away they were so like wow i'm important because they know knew so much more about what was going on the middle east than i had ever expected and so they're like this guy is here to help us in our mission this is important what i do is
Starting point is 02:04:47 important here yeah and um and for me it's like i'm sitting here like dude i'm a just a you know pale guy blonde head from tampa florida like and you're accepting me in here to have dinner with your family and spend the night in your homes and you you know, trusting me with your life. Like it's, it was pretty incredible. It was, it was unique. It's awesome when people come together around common goals and you see, you know, you can go across the world to a totally different culture, a totally different place. And you see how much you have in common, you know, especially towards something that's like a higher calling to like this. It's, it's very, very cool. But when, when you had explained seeing the rhino in the
Starting point is 02:05:26 documentary and having its face hacked off i said we were going to explain all the context here so what i really want to do and lay in the groundwork is let's go through what poaching is what it involves we'll get to everyone who's involved at some point. But when they're hacking off a rhino's face, which is the main thing, you protect all animals over there, but the rhino is the one that's critically endangered. When they do that, can you explain to people why they're doing that and what the value in that is with rhino horns? The reason that people are poaching rhinos black rhinos white rhinos any subspecies of of either um is their horn which all it is is the same stuff your fingernails are made of it's it's um it's it's keratin and it's hair fibers that build up over time and they regrow um they sell it in southeast asia places like vietnam that's the primary um consumer as a country um because it's it's um ancient medicine chinese medicine that
Starting point is 02:06:37 says that it can cure cancer or it's a toenail yeah i mean you can have um erectile dysfunction and a guy will chop up some rhino horn, powder it up, throw it in a capsule with powdered up Viagra, give it to the guy. And now all of a sudden he takes it, fixes that temporarily, and he's like, all right, I'll take a bunch more. And now he thinks that, you know. But that's what the rhino horn is worthless. It's worthless, but it can go for over a million dollars on the black market, depending on the size of it. But they use it as status symbols, though, a lot, too. Now, that's with elephant tusks.
Starting point is 02:07:14 So there's nobody, like, I'll say this. to the whole poaching crisis and I'm dying of cancer. Who knows? Desperate measures result in desperate action. And so I may go and buy some rhino horn if I'm ignorant to it. So there's not even a lot of status symbol with that? No. Now, sometimes if there's a business meeting and some dudes will come in and sit at the table, this dude will throw the rhino horn on the table andy andy was
Starting point is 02:07:49 telling me yeah it seems like andy's been around the block with with some serious business but he he had heard that in certain countries in asia a businessman will take the rhino horn out ahead of a meeting he'll just put it i guess in like one of those holders like on the middle of the table not say anything and when the contra party shows up and sits down he doesn't even acknowledge it but they're like oh wow you know yeah this is a person of yeah it's like a it is that power symbol so i guess that's got to be some of it it's not just the medicine yeah and an elephant tusk that i mean it's china that's consuming 90 of the world's ivory the us is a distant second yeah um all that is a status symbol they take it and i mean the carvings are beautiful it's incredible but you can't just remove a tusk it's connected to membranes into the brain like
Starting point is 02:08:47 that's if they just ship the end of their tusk it's like ripping a tooth out of their mouth because it's really yeah it's a tool yeah i knew it was a tooth but like that's the part i didn't understand when i look at this and i know obviously it has an explanation because otherwise we wouldn't have a crisis but when you first hear about this with both, with a rhino, I'm like, you know, in my head, I'm like, well, can't they? Couldn't they technically chop like right here? And then it's just like a nub. But they don't. They want to go down into the crease.
Starting point is 02:09:14 Because it's quicker. If you're going to chop. That's why. Yeah. So you can chop a rhino horn off in 45 seconds. I've seen it done on security camera footage. Boom, boom, boom. With an axe axe it's
Starting point is 02:09:25 taking skin yeah now if you so there are some reserves that are dehorning rhinos we've worked we we have worked and still work with several that do and you know these reserves are trying anything and everything they can to bring the value down of you know that rhino horn so it will grow back however if it grows back even just a little bit, the poachers, they'll shoot it just so they're not tracking it anymore. They'll shoot the animal and then they will take a sliver of it. Because even that, I mean, if a whole horn's a million dollars, a sliver of it is tens of thousands. But here's the thing. It's starting to affect the behavior patterns of these rhinos by not having horns.
Starting point is 02:10:04 For like mating yeah now the male doesn't have this big horn to bully the the woman into mating and so now the the birth rates are slowing and so we could you know some people want to flood the market with 3d printed horns that which they've found that you know are identical like identical but when you're talking about a horn that is worth over a million dollars that is a total and i appreciate anybody that's trying to help but that's a pipe dream if you think that people whose annual income is a thousand dollars you're going to drive that that rhino horn price down to 10 bucks because that's the only way you're gonna be got to flood a ton of it
Starting point is 02:10:46 and then all they'll do criminals adapt better than anybody they'll find a way to distinguish between a real one and a fake one yeah I feel like that wouldn't be they could figure that out pretty easily that one has a lot of holes in it I don't think that's really feasible
Starting point is 02:11:02 but when they do this and it affects mating I'm just trying to think of holes in it yeah i don't think that's really feasible but they when they do this and and it affects mating i'm just trying to think of like solutions in my head like so you know holding on to different possibilities here but like you do have a lot of conservationists working at on these different places you guys are we'll talk about it but you're primarily in kruger national park in south africa no no no no so we've worked in the kruger area but our headquarters in the eastern cape got okay that's that's where our headquarters is so we have a permanent foothold there but we have teams wilson training teams anywhere in africa if funding permits to
Starting point is 02:11:35 help right you have a lot of people right now in south africa though yes specifically okay that's that's what i wanted to get across so if you're having mating problems on dehorning, aren't there – because there's, what, 25, 26, 27,000 rhinos left in the world? There's like 6,000 black rhinos and 20,000, 21,000 white rhinos, give or take, in Africa? Correct. Okay. So this isn't a crazy big number which is also the whole problem here if they did find a way to in the short term dehorn which would just require taking off the top of it and keeping it short so the poachers don't try to get it couldn't there be some resources for conservationists, kind of like they do with horses a little bit,
Starting point is 02:12:25 to make them mate? Or is that not feasible at all? You know, I'm not a biologist or a veterinarian or ecologist, so I don't know. I've never really thought about it. But in the end, even if you do, it does affect the genetics of the animal through its behavior so what you might find is that like you know hey let's say we do in this poaching crisis which like if i need to die trying and i'm confident that justin and the rest of our guys would say the same thing we will but even if we were to stem that and that was the solution their behaviors are going to be much different much different right so that's a problem yeah it's a problem and i mean white rhinos are one thing they're very chill they hang out in what's called crashes that's a herd of
Starting point is 02:13:17 rhinos black rhinos though are very um you know they're very isolated they don't they don't like being around anybody like that's i'm terrified of a black rhino in the bush they will pummel you and even after you're dead they will keep pummeling you it's terrifying um so you better have a tree close to you but i mean that's that is a lot of i mean that's going to cost a lot of money and resources. And if, if we could remove a horn, you know, the right way, if, if poachers would without killing it, some of them might, but it takes a team of people, a lot of money. You need a helicopter half the time. Why do you need a helicopter?
Starting point is 02:13:58 Because you got to dart it from the helicopter. If it's a black rhino, you got to find them deep in the bush because they, they're grazers. So they have this pointed lip so they eat off of bushes they love being in this thorny bush um just very isolated um so yeah it costs a lot or it's a lot of resources and you got to get everybody in africa to do it or it's not going to work right you know You know. So there's 26,000 of them left, and let's assume that that's not really an option with the whole dehorning thing and all that.
Starting point is 02:14:29 Okay. When you went there, like, you guys started protection operations on, like, some scale in 2017-ish, right? It's been about five years since VetPaw officially formed? No, no, we started in 2014 but was that paul formed then yeah january 2014 we became a non-profit oh i didn't realize i thought you were saying it was like five years no so in 2013 i officially started going to africa
Starting point is 02:14:58 got it okay yeah rhino does i want to search something then because this is going to make this point even more powerful just don't worry i have a diplomatic wave just to show people the effect of this i'm gonna put this chart in the corner of the screen right here i'll make sure this is the right one so these are the poaching numbers in africa from 2007 to 2021 and if i'm looking this includes it just has south africa separated from all other african countries but if you look at it right around the financial crisis time we see a large large spike and it goes through the roof and if you're looking at the screen right now if you're on youtube or spotify you can see this but large large spike and it tops out ironically enough in 2014 and 2015 when now you're telling me you did start then and i'm watching
Starting point is 02:15:52 this chart and again you have a huge presence in south africa work with the government there and everything now i'm seeing an enormous enormous downtrend in poaches per year and this is on rhino specifically so when you guys started doing this the rhino population i'm guessing was lower than it is now overall yeah right so you're increasing it and they are critically endangered because there's literally only 25 30 000 of them left what number do we need to get to to remove them from critically endangered officially? That's a better question for the IUCN. You know, in the IUCN, there are some politics that go in with things as well. So.
Starting point is 02:16:41 Who is the IUCN? The International... That's another acronym I've got to remember. I'll Google it. Go ahead. But, like, leopards, I think, should be listed as critically in danger, but they removed it because there's pressure from other places.
Starting point is 02:16:58 International Union for Conservation of Nature. What do you mean pressure from other places? There are things that, if I say it on here, yeah, we're going to be in deep shit. Really? Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of politics in conservation, more than I've ever seen. You know, people always...
Starting point is 02:17:20 Really? Yeah, and that's not everybody. You know, there are a lot of great people in conservation that you you will never hear of people that you should know about more than me because i'm just some marine that you know had a skill to bring to this and these people you know you know they know more than i do um i'm not a conservationist by trade i'm a conservationist by you know dedicating my life and on the job training right um so when i say that i don't say it because it's an academic title that i earned i say it because you know
Starting point is 02:17:50 what i'm out there dedicating my life to it but i think a lot of people get into conservation for the right reasons and then it becomes this who can save these animals first or who does a better job at saving it's like for us we don't give a damn who saves the animal. If you can do it better than us, I'll be your biggest fan. Go do it. Show me. Go do it. But until I see somebody that can do it better, then I don't want to hear it.
Starting point is 02:18:17 Just focus on what you do and let us focus on what we do. If you don't like it, that's fine. But people have got to come to the table. This isn't about a turf war this is like that right there is if people don't wake up in conservation and stop bickering and stop you know backstabbing one another and creating these little alliances like that person's doesn't do it right or this i've heard more people talk shit about good conservationists or about conservationists in general only to meet this
Starting point is 02:18:51 person and find out you know what this is actually a good person and they don't have the full story on it and it's like that's going to be the reason these animals go go extinct is because of an ego driven turf war there's a lot of competing interests now that doesn't surprise me that part but there's also a very small pool of money then that's that's really what the the great downfall is because at the end of the day it's a lot of people competing for few resources and there's you know there's no one right answer to any of this either and that's i think where the big fuck up happens is that there are so many people who think that their idea is the correct one and that anybody who has a differing idea not only is is against
Starting point is 02:19:39 you but they're a detriment to the entire cause. Sounds like Democrats and Republicans. Yep. Yeah. Okay, so... At first, some of that... The part about other interests didn't surprise me at all, but some of that did surprise me when you were saying it, and now that you put it that way,
Starting point is 02:20:00 it shouldn't have. Because it's like anything else. People... It's not just people who are trying to get the same goal there's also probably people infected in that who actually may not give a shit you know like just because someone labels themselves a conservationist which most of them obviously are you know i'm not i don't want to have the wrong words put in my mouth but it doesn't mean that you don't also get the same freeloaders who want power over things and who want to be able to make decisions.
Starting point is 02:20:31 Like there are just people in this world that get off on that. I'm very lucky. I'm not one of them. I don't know what that's like. I don't, I don't like telling people what to do. I'm not a fan of being told what to do, but like you do whatever you do, man. You know what I mean? So when I see these organizations and governments are always the best example where they're just like they love it, right? Like they're all about like, oh, we get to tell you what the rules are. I don't get it, man. I don't get it. And this should be the kind of issue that everybody can get behind and also if you're literally talking about like endangered numbers this really shouldn't be hard there should be like a standard like oh below a hundred thousand i'm like oh below
Starting point is 02:21:10 90 right this shouldn't be like well you know me it's like well where is there a lack of sustainability because you have to take into account that environments exist animals eat each other and stuff too like there's regular you know cross-pollination in that way whatever whatever the term is there so it shouldn't be that hard, but I understand if there's some of it you can't talk about publicly, and that's sad, but I fully understand that. I'll say this. There are some people in conservation that do it because they want to get awards. They actually have award ceremonies in places. Come on. I'm sorry. I don't think anybody should be celebrating or awarded until, you know, this species, these species, because it's not just rhinos and elephants.
Starting point is 02:21:52 There's many more are sustainable. Like, I've never gotten an award, nor do I freaking want one. You know, you could take that and shove it. That's money that you could have spent to, you know know equip a park ranger with new boots or something or instead of focusing on a on planning that event how about we focus on protecting these animals you know it's it's it's become like a yeah just a whole social socialites dream in some cases like yeah that's not great but i mean let's let's also focus on the positive here because that's what we're here for today. There's a lot of good in this. There's a lot of people doing – that have the passion you do to do something about this.
Starting point is 02:22:31 I think it's incredibly refreshing to hear that so many of these governments are excited about this over there. That's a beautiful thing. We could all learn something from that perhaps here. But looking around at also the elephants and some of the other animals that you protect, these are different numbers and there's different levels of what's considered like a big problem as far as if they got below than rhinos because every species is different. But what is the current situation just – I guess globally but especially across Africa with the African elephant? Like where do we stand on that? And you've mentioned some of the ivory trade. Can you just now fully describe like with the tusks and exactly what they do there as you did with like rhino horns? Yeah, an elephant's tusk is a
Starting point is 02:23:15 tool. They use it for, you know, breaking branches off of trees, you know, marking things, also defending themselves against other rhino bulls or protecting their young. With the ivory trade, elephants have actually been on the rise since I got to Africa. When I got there, though, they were being killed faster than they can reproduce. It was unbelievable.
Starting point is 02:23:42 And we actually started, we found tanzania's first wildlife crimes task force which uh was an intelligence-based task force so instead of just going out into the bush trying to find a needle in a haystack a couple poachers you know sometimes poachers can operate in groups of 80 insane like the serengetty there have been like there was a report that came in 120 poachers out there and i'm like oh damn there's only five of us what do we and you're not talking about by the way people need to hear this you're not talking about five city blocks worth of land here you're talking about hundreds of miles of land to cover where you got it and you know you're letting the animals are wild right this is a lot of space to to keep an eye out for that needle in the haystack that poacher who's trying to take down an animal
Starting point is 02:24:30 yeah so let's let's learn how to take a small unit of of men and women because there are a lot of women park rangers out there and let's teach them how to learn you know work smarter not harder and we do that by gathering information and then exploiting that information to figure out where the best chances are that we'll run into these poachers. How about we take that information and figure out how do we not even catch them in the park? How do we catch them before they get to the park to go poaching? Because once they're in the park that animal is in serious jeopardy and it was so successful we went in we built the wildlife crimes task force which consisted of 12 local park rangers that did exceptionally well we taught them how to gather information and pose as
Starting point is 02:25:20 informants or spies if you will not government Not government guys. They were government guys. They were. So these are the armed park rangers. Yep. And this unit still stands today. We taught them how to gather the information, befriend these poachers or middlemen, the guys that are paying the poachers, going in and saying, hey, this is what I need. I'm going to send guys in to protect you. But you live in this community.
Starting point is 02:25:47 You know where the elephants are. And we're going to need you to shoot. You're going to have to track them. And then you take the shot. These guys will protect you with AK-47s. So what year are we in? This was when does fast grocery delivery through Instacart matter most? When your famous grainy mustard potato salad isn't so famous without the grainy mustard.
Starting point is 02:26:08 When the barbecue's lit, but there's nothing to grill. When the in-laws decide that, actually, they will stay for dinner. Instacart has all your groceries covered this summer. So download the app and get delivery in as fast as 60 minutes. Plus enjoy $0 delivery fees on your first three orders. Service fees, exclusions, and terms apply. Instacart. Groceries that over-deliver. is 60 minutes plus enjoy zero dollar delivery fees on your first three orders service fees exclusions and terms apply instacart groceries that over deliver so we started doing this in 2014 started doing and i would pose as a uh you know the assistant of a rich tourist
Starting point is 02:26:37 and go in and i would buy ivory parts with protection of the government not ivory excuse me i would build up to that so we might buy a snake skin or a leopard skin which is also you were doing undercover apps yeah wow dude i would have button cameras yeah oh you were one of these oh yeah and amazing yeah it was it allowed me to see some pretty wild stuff and And when you think about it, when you're in that situation, I mean, these are guys that don't just poach. They traffic humans, drugs, firearms, ISIS in Africa. Up to 40% of their operations, terrorist activities, are funded off of the illegal trade of elephants and rhinos.
Starting point is 02:27:19 They are poaching animals to kill humans. Think about that. Wow okay so here i am undercover button camera if they find that camera i'm done yeah i'm unarmed and embedded bro i don't have air support coming in to help me is just your idea to do this yeah absolutely it was me and Oz and who's on he's a Green Beret one of your guys yeah yeah yeah and then afterwards you start thinking kind of like you did and in you know what if thing and imagine that man I go into a warehouse or something to do a buy they find that camp but i had to have the camera for the evidence yeah they find that camera i'm never leaving that place and is this all in south africa this is in uh kenya and tanzania okay these are in places
Starting point is 02:28:20 where the police won't even go so here So here's what I want to do now. Again, there's so much here. And people at home who have never thought about this. Even me, I had some awareness of it. But then going in and actually researching how this works, I'm like, wait, holy shit, really? This is such a huge racket. And all the layers to it are important. So we keep talking about the poachers.
Starting point is 02:28:45 We keep talking about who they're killing among rhinos and elephants primarily, but it is other things too. And it's like everything else. It comes back to money. But how do we get all the way – like how many layers are there to this? So when you're doing an investigation and you're talking about this money could end up in the hands of ISIS, it's not like you're with very dangerous people as we covered, but it's not like you're sitting in there with Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, right? You're in there with some local middleman who gets this asset to people like ISIS and other places, but it's not just ISIS. It's Boko Haram. It's foreign countries who are just, they don't give a shit about the animals and they're using his power symbols like the ivory in China and stuff. So from the ground level, how does it work? Who are the people
Starting point is 02:29:36 actually taking the shot? How many people are in between? And then what types of people are on the other ends? Yeah, there's no size fits all with this so there are you know in south africa that's not just a bunch of poor guys trying to feed their family or send their daughters to boarding school these are guys that i mean there are isis cells down there there are that are actually killing the oh yeah yeah these are the same guys i mean dude they will if they catch a park ranger they will torture them they'll kill their family everything the poachers yep these are scumbags wow this is exploitation to the max i did not realize this i thought it was all i thought the bottom level like the people who were actually doing the dirty work were all
Starting point is 02:30:17 like just some of the locals who they buy off no no now in east africa what will happen typically is they'll go to a very remote village. They'll bring their top dogs as the protection team. These are Al-Shabaab, Boko Haram. These are rebel groups that are making money off of trafficking humans or drugs or you name it. These are bad people. They kill people and not just kill them, they kill them brutally. So they'll bring them in.
Starting point is 02:30:48 They will exploit that man, and he will have to track that elephant for days. When they get there, he'll go in with them. They're his protection entourage, his protective detail with the semi-automatic machine guns. Meanwhile, he's using a gun that's probably 50 years old that he buries in the dirt and pulls it out, and it is a huge caliber. It's 3.75 or 4.58 typically. Imagine that.
Starting point is 02:31:14 I mean, it's an elephant round. I mean, it's huge. They go out. He shoots the animal. They hack the tusks off. They take off with him. He gets 0.5% of, you know, let's say it's a million dollars. That guy will probably get a thousand bucks. And then they're out.
Starting point is 02:31:36 Wow. Now then that tusk, those tusks go to the middleman. He has them transport them to the guy in the local hub which is a medium-sized metropolitan area then another guy will take that to the port where he's infiltrated and money is changing hands at each layer right money is changing keeps going up it's changing hands or it has exchanged hands and a deposit type of system and the big one is getting it through the ports the ports they they infiltrate the law enforcement there in most cases so insider threats and it's it's not all of them all you need is one guy and they're able to smuggle it out with in normal shipping
Starting point is 02:32:25 containers they'll they'll hide it in anything and everything they can it's crazy it's absolutely crazy and what's the metric again for elephant tusks like how much does it go for per kilo kilogram um at the peak it was about about $80,000 a kilo, I believe. I think for elephant tusk, it's always been a bit lower, but with rhino horn, it's about $70,000-$80,000. There was a time where I believe it was $90,000 a kilo.
Starting point is 02:32:56 Which is crazy. How much does the average rhino horn and how much does the average elephant tusk weigh? An elephant tusk is what 50 kilos yeah yeah and it also depends on the bloodline because certain bloodlines they call it the big tusker bloodline they have massive tusks and their offspring will have massive tusks other bloodlines are going down because they're being poached at such a rapid rate the big tusker bloodline is almost gone oh that's scary the first big tusker i ever saw was
Starting point is 02:33:30 poached yep not while i was there but what was his name i don't even remember but i got an amazing picture like sabo or safe oh was that it no but i know the one that you're talking about yeah they did it there's a great documentary that he was poached yeah yes there's a great documentary on netflix called the ivory game yeah i would highly suggest people watch it's from 2016 leonardo dicaprio was actually one of the people who helped fund it i believe he did but they they dedicated the documentary to that elephant who had his tusks were so big they were like touching the ground and then he was poached crossed didn't they yeah i think so they were huge they were huge it looked like almost fake and you're like oh my god and i googled it afterwards
Starting point is 02:34:15 because obviously i knew he had been poached and i think he was poached in like 2014 or 2015 so sad man i can imagine then you know his tusks were gone for millions of dollars tens of millions of dollars maybe all to sit behind some rich guy's desk and that's the scariest part man like when you see they did this undercover work that you did you were the same guy doing this stuff just in a different place in this case but some of the footage they have in that movie very brave people yeah including like there was one reporter who was a native chinese guy who was like i hate the stigma that all of our people are like this a lot of us we don't want to see this happen so i want to be a part of the solution he went in there
Starting point is 02:34:58 undercover in these dangerous places and he got all this stuff on camera and it's it's unbelievable how much of it they have and there are some people that that say it's debunked the isis funding through the trade of ivory and rhino horn that's that's false why do they say it's debunked i don't know everybody every journalist seems to have an opinion or a theory and you know they just they run with it and it's like well first of all why would you put that out there but number two i've witnessed it i mean i i had a bounty on my freaking head by these guys really yeah how'd that happen because we were affecting their bottom line and then the guy that took my place when i had to come back to the states for an illness when was that that was 2016 i want to say they assassinated him
Starting point is 02:35:45 who was that guy he was another very passionate conservationist and he ruffled feathers more vocally than I did and he was scared of nothing and God bless him he gave the ultimate
Starting point is 02:36:03 sacrifice I mean how did this happen was it just like in his house And God bless him. He gave the ultimate sacrifice. I mean, how did this happen? Was it just like in his house? Like they came and got him? No, he was in a taxi in Dar es Salaam. They pulled up and right through the side of the... They didn't take a wall or anything. They took off.
Starting point is 02:36:18 They ended up, I believe, catching a couple of them. Holy shit. And it was a local poaching network that did it? Yep. Yep. so do you have an active bounty on your head oh not now not now but i mean i can never do undercover work again i was gonna say i didn't know they removed those things no i mean honestly it's like i mean i i don't think any of my guys really care. It's not, you know, it's just like the military. You know, when you sign up to protect something,
Starting point is 02:36:49 you sign up for something greater than yourself. Yeah. And we're just a handful of 8 billion people on this planet, and yet how many rhinos, how many elephants, and other species are left? We're expendable. They're more important to the sustainability than this planet than just a handful of people you know incredible
Starting point is 02:37:11 responsibility to take on but you know it's like anything else somebody's got to do it you know and you guys are you guys are stepping up and answering the call and so these these networks, is most of the final buying like taking possession of the product at the end, ivory, the rhino horn in Southeast Asia? Is that the – Yes. Yes. They actually – the Chinese government was busted smuggling ivory out in diplomatic pouches because you can't search diplomatic pouches. They're bringing it out to a government-owned yacht off the coast and taking it home.
Starting point is 02:37:54 Yeah, they talked about that in that document. But in the meantime, they're sitting there saying, yep, buying ivory is illegal in our country. But then they're doing that as a government, and then they just don't enforce the law. The one guy in there said something pretty powerful he said the the future of the elephant on earth lies in the hands of the president of china perhaps that's a heavy it's a heavy. But it goes to show you like, you know, in the materialism world and the short-sighted world, the people who are buying this, they're happy they're buying it. You know, they don't – they are not thinking about when they're not here. And a lot of these people, because they come from a lot of wealth, should be the people who are thinking about that more than anyone because they have the ability to affect that future in a positive way moving forward.
Starting point is 02:38:58 But they do the total opposite and they participate in a massively international criminal syndicate. Yep. But I tell you what, though, as long as there's a threat, we're there to protect. We've never had an elephant or rhino poached under our watch. Yeah, this is amazing. Ever. Not one. And there's not a day that goes by that we get complacent or do not take the threat seriously.
Starting point is 02:39:26 Once again, I'm going to put that chart in the corner that's right behind you so people can see this because this is directly correlated to when you started going over there. It is, and I think that it also has a lot to do – we're a small team, and it's a huge continent. People don't realize how many times the United States can fit inside of Africa as a whole. So this is a lot of people coming to the table. But I will take credit for Vet Paul in that, you know, we have spread a lot of awareness for this cause. There are a lot of people that support veterans that had no idea that this was going on. And now they can relate to this. They've never seen an elephant or a rhino in their natural habitat. And now they're like, hey, that's my brother over there. Check out what he's doing, or that's my son, or you know what? Just simplify or army strong. I support you guys for life. I'm
Starting point is 02:40:15 not a veteran. I don't have any family members, but I love the military and this is a great freaking cause. And this is a world problem. I don't care if you haven't been to Africa. This is a world challenge because we can fix this. We can. We don't have a choice. We have to fix this. We are humans and we are supposed to be stewards of this planet. And right now we're exploiting it for temporary gains and that's all it is yeah
Starting point is 02:40:48 now how many guys do you have officially i can't tell you you can't tell me that okay that's okay anytime anytime i ask something that's private information i will say we need more we need more and we are not just a bunch of freedom fighters waving american flags you know coming in and force feeding you know and it's not a one-size-fits-all to what we do um we're force multipliers so we want to empower the locals right to do this yeah with the rangers so the zero number is probably one of the more powerful things i've heard because once again as we said you're you're guarding an enormous territory even if you can't there's a lot of countries you still want to go to in africa that you're not doing anything right now because
Starting point is 02:41:36 you need more people like the places you are are huge so when you've been doing this for so many years now and you've never lost one, obviously what you're doing is working. And it is still like catching a needle in a haystack though. So, somehow you're avoiding that and poachers either aren't trying much or it's just incredibly effective. without going into confidential details that can give away strategy on a 30,000 foot in the air level to someone who has never been over there, like me and all the people listening who don't really understand how this works, like why is it you think that you haven't lost any animals and that there clearly are far fewer attempts to even try in the large areas where you are patrolling well number one there's a fear factor and an intimidation of you know
Starting point is 02:42:30 war fighters that are now doing this are we fighting it in the same way as a war no but we were capable and we will if we have to however um i give all the credit to the veterans on the ground and their counterparts that they work with it's pure dedicated it's don't do it unless you're all in you are one million percent committed to this these guys i called them up because i used to live in africa and now i've got to keep the wheels turning so i don't get to go over there and live full-time like they do you still spend a lot of time there though i do yeah and so at the beginning of covid i called him up and i i was prepared myself and our director of operations who's a force recon scout sniper what's his name
Starting point is 02:43:15 lynn westover the sherpa and we talked to each other on the phone we're like hey this covid thing's getting real so are you ready to go to Africa? Because it's just probably going to be you and me just in the bush. These guys are probably going to want to go home. Called them up, said, guys, I totally respect and understand if you need to go home to support your families. Totally get that. Just tell me now. So that way I know what to expect. And every single one of them said absolutely not.
Starting point is 02:43:44 No, it's not happening wow these animals are my life and i don't know how i could live knowing that i abandoned them and something happened to them now the the whole purpose thing though too which i would imagine is very similar for all you guys who are there on the ground but like you have you've talked with me about it off camera. Like you have veterans on your team who are dealing with some of the same things that you dealt with yourself and the lasting effects of seeing combat, whether it be full-blown PTSD or any of the trauma that comes with that. It seems to me like the power of doing this not only gives you that purpose in in protecting literally like the survival of species it's a very powerful thing in the context history but also you know being out in nature being having the habits of duty again you know it's putting on the uniform carrying the gun
Starting point is 02:44:40 protecting you know it helps them it It's therapy, it seems like. Is that fair to say? Absolutely. It's ecotherapy. It's real. I like that, ecotherapy. Yeah. I mean, it's a dream of mine one day just to have, you know,
Starting point is 02:44:56 a program where veterans can come out. Don't pay for anything. We'll get sponsors to pay for it. You come out and you just get in wildlife for a portion of your life, a week, a month, and just decompress. Everything is okay. This animal right here, this massive elephant, that's what matters in life. That is the most innocent, pure being of all of god's beings you know it's come and see screw this political stuff come out here and just calm down just don't think about anything with these animals it'll
Starting point is 02:45:37 cure you it really does so much i don't even know i can honestly say i don't i don't i don't even know. I can honestly say I don't know if I'd be on this planet at this point if not for these animals. Wow. Yeah. It was that bad at one point. It doesn't surprise me, though, at all. Like, it's just, I mean, I'm an animal lover. So, like, when I look at this stuff, I've never stood with elephants. I've seen it on the HD videos, and I'm like, this shit is wild. It's like, it's just just they're larger than life because
Starting point is 02:46:06 they literally are you know and rhinos same exact thing you look at them like when i look at the structure of their face and by the way paul drew this on your i know on your mug that's hilarious he drew that in like two seconds guys talented as all hell i hate guys like that just do everything good you turn around to him you're like all right paul draw some and i'm thinking i'm gonna get like a stick figure he comes back with a fucking picasso but you know like it it is not at all surprising to me that that whether it be veterans or anyone that goes over there like all the people who are generous generous enough to donate or help with the cause i'm sure they feel the same thing like
Starting point is 02:46:46 if i get the chance to go over there i'm sure like something's gonna hit me that can't hit me right now just because you see it in person you're like wow this might be here a thou might let's let's make sure it's here a thousand years from now when i'm history like whoa it's heavy man i've never met a person that has come to africa with vet paul that did not for the first time that did not return back to the states obsessed right everybody on this planet should have the opportunity to see these animals i don't care if you're rich poor everybody needs to see these animals. It changes your life.
Starting point is 02:47:28 Once it's in your blood, it doesn't go away. Yeah. Now, along the way, when you guys have been on your patrols and doing all the things you do, as you've mentioned a bunch of times today, including worse than I had imagined with the poachers, these are very, very dangerous people. They have no problem shooting. I did know there were firefights and stuff. had imagined with with the poachers these are very very dangerous people they will they have no problem shooting i did know there were firefights and stuff i just didn't realize that they were like literally actually some of the terrorists sometimes oh yeah but like what have you been in situations where you guys have had to take people out or have you mostly avoided
Starting point is 02:48:00 that because they don't so they don't try guys like us have squeezed the trigger enough and what makes us unique and i think a lot of people in the public have this concept that they develop in their head where oh yeah go over there and and you know let's uh you know let's send our best over there to just wreck these guys take them out no no that's how you create a war all right no at all costs you need to prevent like do not pull that trigger i'm saying so let me be let me be more clear about that because i want to talk about this too there's some really cool stories with that with you turning people around i love that i'm saying though they will shoot at you oh yeah so yeah you i would imagine you've been in situations where they start shooting and i'm i mean you gotta do what you gotta do it's survival mode yeah and even in some of those
Starting point is 02:48:49 situations we haven't had to fire back really because they don't even know who we are and then once they realize wait a second something's different here then they're like they're not going away they're keeping up with me whatever like we trevor chased down a guy that had a an east african too these guys win marathons all the time trevor chased down a an east african in the bush that had a machete and just had just hacked one of the rangers you know yeah we've we've had shots fired at us and still um if that doesn't deter us then they're they're real worried I mean do you guys lose Park Rangers somewhat regularly to the murder so I've lost friends that are Park Rangers um right now where we work no I mean but I mean in the Congo they just lost the whole squad of Rangers total ambush I mean, it happens. Wow. Yeah. But when the whole like legislating through peace with this, where you can actually get on phone that sounded like it was the kind of common way
Starting point is 02:50:06 of approach that you've adopted in in dealing with some of these people when you actually catch them where there was a poacher and he ended up working for you guys is that what happened yeah so i don't believe in torture in any level i mean maybe you know what osama bin laden or something. Yeah. Yeah. You know what I mean? But like, I just, I never try to pretend like I've walked a mile in someone else's shoes. So I bring a certain level of empathy to what I do. And I'm confident that all of our veterans do the same. Um, so I'm getting ready to go into the jail cell. This guy had already been apprehended by the Wildlife Crimes Task Force.
Starting point is 02:50:53 So I get to the ranger station, and the head ranger says, I need you to interrogate him. Go in there, and I think you should inflict some force. And I'm like, wait wait say that again what what are you what are you asking me to do he's like here's the power tools yeah he goes torture him and i'm like damn nah dog that's not what we're gonna do and i said but i'd like you to watch and so i went in the room and there's two poachers sitting zip-tied. They're flexi-cuffed against the wall.
Starting point is 02:51:29 They hadn't slept all night, I'm sure, and they may have already been tortured for all I know, and I looked them in the eyes, and I said, Hey, this is who I am. I'm not here as a white American to tell you that you're wrong in any way, shape, or form. I said, I love these animals that you're involved in killing. I said, but what I want you to know is that your communities have a lot of potential. Ecotourism, there's ecotourism here already.
Starting point is 02:52:00 And it's expanding and growing. And by killing these animals and poaching them, you are destroying the future of your children, and you're dishonoring your communities and your tribe. And honor's a big thing there. And I said, so if you help me, if you help me go and get these guys that are still out there and getting ready to go poach, because it's the night before the full moon cycle. And we know that they're in the communities.
Starting point is 02:52:30 We just got to figure out who they are. They blend in. They're already sleeping in people's homes. They come from far away to these villages and they make them let them sleep in their home. Full moon's good for poaching. Oh, yeah, because you don't need a flashlight. You don't even want it. You don't want it. You can see it's it's daytime right and so i said to them if if you help me i will see what i can do about getting a lesser sentence for you with the judge. And if you follow specific instructions
Starting point is 02:53:06 and you are deemed as uncorrupt, you may try out to be a park ranger potentially. Oh, you told them that? Or to work for a park ranger unit. You told them that right in there? Yes. Wow. And what happened?
Starting point is 02:53:24 One of them, I came back the next day, and one of them still wanted nothing to do with me. And that ended up changing because he saw what the other guy did. The guy said, I'm going to take you to every home of a poacher that I know of right now. So we went door to door. Door to door. Making arrests. We arrested the totally dismantled in 36 hours the poaching network responsible for 18 000 up to 18 000 unaccounted elephants in one year in one year
Starting point is 02:53:56 yep and previously they had said 10 000 and then a then a parliament member of Tanzania who was actually the top dog in poaching and fighting it was like, no, we only put that amount at the time. It's actually 18,000. Holy shit. How many people were in that network? There was over 100. The ones that were in there, because we dismantled their front lines in 36 hours i think we made like 40 arrests then they were able to get information out of those guys by not torturing them by meeting them you know human to human and finding common ground and then educating them
Starting point is 02:54:39 and then boom they get the information they made over 100 a hundred arrests. Yeah. Wow. Now, what was the thing? I don't know if this is the same thing, but you were telling me earlier downstairs about some missions where you guys literally went in like military missions where you went into poachers houses at night once you knew they were poachers and were able to arrest them without their wives even waking up. Yeah. We've taken that.
Starting point is 02:55:05 Was that the same thing? Yeah, and by the way, when we do this, we're assisting, advising and assisting. I only jump in to do this if I see a potential breakdown. If a ranger is not following the techniques that he was taught, I'll pull security, perimeter security with my guys, but I will only go into a home after they've taken it, or at the time after they had taken it, or if shit hits the fan in there.
Starting point is 02:55:35 But no, no, no, I don't want, no, and I don't want the locals to say, like, look at me as an American being like, what the hell? You know, well, when that American leaves, rumor gets, that American leaves, then we'll start doing it again. No, no, no. They need to see – they need to be fearful of those Rangers and respect their authority. Now, we're on the hierarchy, though, like – or not hierarchy, on the organization chart. Where do, like, the local police and then state police tie in is that are
Starting point is 02:56:08 the rangers a part of that or are they their own like separate entities so they're part of a wildlife or tourism ministry okay but they do work hand in hand with police so once they're apprehended there's an initial interview uh with them to get information and then as soon as the police get there they finish up their interview and then the police will take him into custody until he sees the judge got it okay so there there is like a teamwork procedure yeah that way yeah but the rangers are the ones going open up fbi 100 okay yeah f FBI open up. Got that backwards. Okay. So at this point, if I could say to you right now, I have a magic wand. You're going to get everything you need.
Starting point is 02:57:02 And by everything you need, we're going to stop this problem across, let's say, the entire continent of Africarica how does that work how much manpower do you need you're asking the wrong question there okay what's the right question well the answer is the education of the populace that's that's purchasing all this you have to stop the marketplace because as long as a market exists you're going to be able to convince poor people to take part in all this kind of stuff. It's exploitation all the way down. So what we're doing, we're not solving anything. We're protecting as best as we can. But solving the problem, you have to go so much deeper into another culture and convince them that this is
Starting point is 02:57:45 this is the wrong way and it takes generations to change a culture and i'm certainly not going to be able to go to china or you know in change of cultures as an american citizen that's not going to happen yeah i'll make them buy that'll make it more expensive and more of a demand i don't know sadly i don't know how possible that is because there are so many different cultures involved. So what I'm saying, and that is a good clarification, but maybe I could put this another way. If we assumed that not just VetPol, like all organizations who are good, who are doing this kind of thing or are involved in the process, however that works, if we could assume that those criminals are going to exist and that marketplace is going to exist, seeing as you guys in the real estate that you've been covering have had zero deaths, right?
Starting point is 02:58:38 How do we get to a point where all the relevant countries that have these creatures also have people like you protecting such that maybe the death toll isn't zero but the death toll is five a year you know it's it's very limited to the point that we have hundreds of thousands millions of rhinos and elephants maybe 50 years from now sure vet paul needs the ability to deploy up to 20 veterans at a time and some of those veterans will be designated towards training teams train advise and assist throughout africa in very remote locations where there are no support of rangers they're just on their own we need vehicles badly We need trucks right now. Like it's, it's a no shit serious thing. We need a vehicle upgrade bad. I need six new trucks. I
Starting point is 02:59:33 need command centers in them with IR long range camera systems. I need flights for these. I have veterans knocking down the door more than qualified to do this job and totally vetted that need flights to africa um it'll cost us it costs us about what is eighty thousand dollars a year to deploy a veteran everything that goes into it uh we need vehicles. We need side-by-sides, four-wheelers. This terrain is no joke. It is no joke to drive onto. But I value our organization, especially the case study of our organization and our ability to operate similarly to the Marine Corps in that we do the most with the least. Okay. So I'm looking – I have up behind you right here. I wanted to make sure we had this as context too.
Starting point is 03:00:34 So the first map we're looking at, and I'll put this in the corner, is the status of African elephants. And I believe what this one shows is the different hotspots of where elephants are living in Africa, right? It looks about right to you? No because south africa has a ton of elephants yeah like we honestly south africa probably has too many elephants okay so let's see hold on maps of elephants africa where they live i was there it was oh it was i mean it's all over which one it's well no it's not but it's it's right there in that and that's where a lot of them actually are in south africa now we we've been asked to put a team in kenya again and you know that's i mean look at east africa yeah right there yep okay so that's elephants over
Starting point is 03:01:20 here we have two maps we have the white rhino And does that look about right that most of them are now – I was going to say they're up here and there too, right? So I think Kenya has a very small population, but they are focusing now on redistrib have rhinos that I know about and I've ever seen them in Tanzania is the Ngorongoro Crater, which is a World Heritage Site, very small park, very highly secured. They have the most rangers per acre or per hectare than any other place in Africa. So that's good. Yeah, it's good. It's good yeah it's good all right it's good um but the only reason why they have that many rangers is because they have that world heritage title so they automatically get international funding for it got it okay this map right here now
Starting point is 03:02:16 is the black rhino and then i imagine the white rhino map is somewhat similar with where they where they were distributed um this is a this is similar with where they where they were distributed um this is a this is a historical map of where they were distributed so now they're pretty much all pushed to the south yeah they're going to be in the very southern hemisphere of of um africa so south africa namibia mozambique zimbabwe mozambique is pretty much i mean totally devastated is there a problem though i'm just thinking about this out loud is there a problem ecologically i don't know if that's a word long term where countries that have where the environment has consisted of having rhinos and elephants in the past now now through redistribution, through the poaching
Starting point is 03:03:05 and moving some rhinos around and stuff, if they don't have them, everything will change about the environment because they're a part of the food chain. They're a part of the structure. Some biologists may disagree with this, but they don't actually have a natural-born predator. An elephant can absolutely wreck anything that it wants that's the true king
Starting point is 03:03:26 of the jungle at least in africa um but yeah here's the thing an ecosystem doesn't just operate with the animals it's the flora and the fauna so the plants matter too they're critical right so like land restoration is big for us because our host reserve is taking old pineapple fields restoring the land but before they can put more you know animals on the land that land has to be able to hold that amount of animals so there's so much more that goes into this but if you if black rhinos go extinct the food that they eat the shrubbery the thorny bushes um will overtake you know the ecosystem so then no sun gets to the dirt, and then no grass grows,
Starting point is 03:04:07 and then you lose that beautiful savanna grass. And it goes on and on. Every single species plays a role in an ecosystem, including humans, except we're destroying it. Right. So the middle of this map right here then, where you see the black line, I'll have that still in the corner, but where you see the black line, where now I know there aren't a lot of black rhinos because they're taking them all south
Starting point is 03:04:27 and redistributing them like isn't the shrubbery and therefore the ecosystem having big problems there already that's the congo right there yeah yeah i i don't see the names of countries but i'll chat in there yeah it's just the con is mostly rainforest, so I think that it's never been a historical habitat for – like white rhino, like you said, are grazers. So they prefer open field, savanna-type places to live, but the Congo is rainforest, so I don't think that you're going to find big herbivores there. Okay, so the bottom line, just easy takeaway, we're not as concerned about that in that type of area. That's why some of the redistribution is actually good. And now you're going to have, because again, the population of black rhinos got all the way down to like 5,000 or 6,000. So there's not even that many.
Starting point is 03:05:17 But it's okay to build them out in like South Africa where there's more of a plain setup. Yeah. Okay. All right. That makes sense. Listen, if they go extinct, it's not the number zero. There is a certain number, let's say, and I'm totally to consider them potentially extinct because of their gestation periods and birth rates. So if, if they're being killed faster, they,
Starting point is 03:05:52 then they can give birth. That is a huge, huge problem. That is an international emergency. Shit. Cause the other thing, listening to you talk, I almost smile.
Starting point is 03:06:08 Cause it's like so much less. But we see the landmass, even in just South Africa, that you're covering. And you talk about it like, man, it'd be great if we could get this. And you're asking me for six trucks and 20 people. Well, I mean, you have to start somewhere. I know. And I appreciate that a lot. But I'm saying, like, this doesn't seem that hard to get you that. Like, we should be able to get you a lot more.
Starting point is 03:06:30 You know, if people could get behind this and see what you guys are doing, why not have 20 man teams with six vehicles spread out all over the place? Why not have it in every one of the countries I'm looking at where there is a presence of these creatures who are being attacked. The problem is that none of this is one size fits all. So the problems that you're having in South Africa are uniquely distinct from the problems that you're having in Zimbabwe, which are uniquely distinct from the problems that you're
Starting point is 03:06:59 having in the Congo. So every problem that we're looking at has to be evaluated and you have to understand your environment before you can hope to impact it. So, you know, if it was as easy as shipping, you know, a container full of guys with guns and yeah, we'd be made in the shade, but realistically this is, you know, we're, we're struggling through years of hard-fought, on-the-job experience, and we're understanding, you know, we're bringing our skills that we have as American soldiers and Marines to a problem that is uniquely different, but at the same time, there are a lot of similarities. It's just understanding how we fit into this problem and and what the potential solutions are but it's so complicated every time that you really have to go and evaluate before you can make a dedication and and say we're committing to this right now because we understand the problem and
Starting point is 03:07:57 have the means and an opportunity to to help make a difference here but right can't wait to have you on too it's been great this is interesting today i've never done it like this and when we're able to get to another studio we'll have we'll have the three mic three four mic setup so we'll be able to just sit you in here as well on some of these but as far as you know where you guys stand with funding right now like what are you allowed to say what kind of operating expenses you have oh yeah okay we're a registered 501c3 organization since 2014 we also have a south african non-profit status working on europe um for us we're at a million dollar budget a year and we didn't even meet that i think last year we're at 700 something that's it yeah
Starting point is 03:08:51 but guess what guess what we're still on the ground yeah yeah we've been running with the same toyota four tuners which are like four runners that we americanize with good tires suspension communication system we've been running on those since since 2016 those vehicles had a lifespan in reality when we got them maybe three years wow we did what we could do they're literally duct taped together yeah oh it's crazy yeah the panels they're not the land we need land cruisers those suckers are expensive that's what i'm saying that like you guys have had all these crazy great results with so little yeah i mean this is not like you know this is something that a few very wealthy people could snap their fingers pretend i'm talking like the wealthiest of the wealthiest could snap their fingers and like we could really get moving here yeah yeah wow you know the a lot of the money get in there a lot of great organizations anybody
Starting point is 03:09:42 that's dedicated to saving wildlife i have utmost respect for but there are a lot of the money and there are a lot of great organizations. Anybody that's dedicated to saving wildlife, I have utmost respect for. But there are a lot of organizations that are failing and refuse to change. And they're the ones that are showing the poaching incidents, which means they're getting the money. You know, it's tugging at the emotions. And, you know, if we're not showing dead rhinos or we don't have a whole reserve of baby animals for people to come and do that volunteerism stuff, then that's a huge fundraising pivot. But there's a reason why those babies are there and there's a reason why those animals are dead and ours aren't. Right? Never. Security is a thankless job.
Starting point is 03:10:26 Yeah. It really is. When, when nothing's going wrong, you're paying way too much for it. And when something does go wrong, it's like you guys have been fucking up this entire time. Yeah. Yeah. It's, um, so that's, you know, that's a fundraising battle that we face and that's why, you know, spreading awareness about our successes and you know the collaborations that we have and and using them as an example and and honestly a you know kind of a pioneer in conservation is important you guys also have as far as like legitimacy of backing your board
Starting point is 03:11:01 is incredible yeah the people you have on it so can we talk about some of the people who are on that and all they do for it and shine a light on that because when we're going through people stepping up who have power and and have made something of themselves in life your board is a phenomenal place to start because they put their money where their mouth is and and it seems like they're also like you guys seem to operate very much as a family in that way and the board seems to be a big part of that which is really really cool i had never met jason flom when he heard about us when we were in tanzania uh i all of a sudden get a an email alert there's a ten thousand dollar donation and i'm like whoa holy hell i thought like at the time
Starting point is 03:11:47 i was like 500 bucks man that's awesome 10 000 i've never even met this guy so i had to come back to the states i had this terrible spider bite on my foot and the hospital was like hey we we can't help you with that you need to go or we're gonna cut your foot off or your leg oh jesus so i come back to the states while i'm you know taking care of that i met up with jason for lunch and he just clicked that guy does so much good for so many people and um he continued to donate i mean he's over time donated he's our top donor of all time but he's not just a donor i mean he came out to see it right so he could get all the way behind it and that's what he does he's the he's one of the original guys on the innocence project i believe he's chairman of the
Starting point is 03:12:30 board of that right you know i don't know if he's chairman anymore but he it's possible i'd have to look but yes he's done amazing work oh yeah and that's incredible he gets you know these um you know falsely accused and convicted individuals of serious crimes, murder, rape, you name it, and goes in, they use forensics and science to prove that that's wrong due to corruption, you know, in certain agencies, and it gets them out of prison and gives them their life back. It's unbelievable. The guy fights mercilessly for the well-being of others. You really can't find a more selfless person. Jason Flom is an amazing human being. That's awesome.
Starting point is 03:13:12 Yeah. Peter Morton, the founder of Hard Rock, is on our board, arguably one of the greatest businessmen of our generation. Another amazing guy. Is that more than the steakhouse, too? His father, yes. Wow. That's awesome. greatest businessman of our generation another amazing guy and you know it's it's crazy in the steakhouse too his father yes wow yeah yeah a lot of stories over there yeah but now he's he's a amazing human being he found us through jason and was like this is this what an amazing concept because he's an innovator you know right and in reality vet paul is an innovative idea it's putting you know
Starting point is 03:13:45 fixing so many different issues and you know bringing them together but um he's been fully supportive and i was like i'm gonna take a shot here and we're gonna invite him to be on the board and uh but i didn't have any expectations he goes jason on your board i said yep and he goes i'll be on your board oh wow holy hell like that's the effect like how just humbling you know for somebody like that to get behind this mission everybody on our we have helena christiansen now she came out to see it the model yeah yeah oh yeah helena's amazing amazing human being such a beautiful person um yeah her and mingus her son came out and uh oh yeah it was fun she's a trip too it's so cool yeah yeah because you guys have like an enormous as far as like names behind this supporting in in a border ambassador capacity
Starting point is 03:14:42 it's not two people yeah and they've stepped up for us and now you know we need we need other people you know hey listen you may not know me you may not know justin or the other team members you may not know you know a veteran which is pretty hard to find but um look at who's behind this this is serious if they think it's serious then help us out join us yeah i might have been saying this to you earlier but i thought the email was fake at first because i looked at the link and i'm like jason fucking flom is the chairman of this all right this is there's a mistake here and then he's like no mate i'm a fun i was like wow thanks but yeah man it's it it's it's pretty cool stuff i i guess guess the other thing that people are really
Starting point is 03:15:27 wondering is like, is the main thing that you can get from people right now, quite literally, funding, like donations out there for people listening right now, is there a way that they can just donate five, 10, 15 bucks, whatever? Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And that's the biggest help, like adding that up. If every person on our Instagram or Facebook donated $10, I mean, we would be over the top. Yeah.
Starting point is 03:15:53 I mean, it's one thing to follow a nonprofit. And if you can't donate, that's fine. Share it. Spread awareness for what we do. Be an advocate for us. I don't care what it is if you're an if you're a subject matter expert in something in life i will find a way we will find a way to apply it to what we do for the benefit of what we do like i don't care what it is yeah i don't even mean to say this like callously but if that's if that's a simple
Starting point is 03:16:23 solution like yeah let's get some dollars in this here's what we do you're putting it out there like it's very clear what's going on the people who are involved they're they check all the boxes too this is really legit organization then i think that's that's great because it's almost like we can root for it from afar too you know living here in america it's like you guys are out there on the front lines handling business you love doing it and like our money can actually go towards that. And you're operating on clearly, like, a budget's not big. Yeah, we'll do the dirty work.
Starting point is 03:16:52 We'll do the dirty work so that you don't have to just get behind us. We don't do this for money. We don't do this for ego. We do this selfishly in that, you know what, we feel good and we have a purpose. And that's okay. But we do this selfishly in that we feel good and we have a purpose, and that's okay. But we do this for the right reasons. Like I said, man, we're just a handful of guys and a population of 8 billion, so we're expendable. We'll take that chance, just like we did in war.
Starting point is 03:17:21 You'll put it forward, my friend. I think there's a lot of podcasts in the future to come. We'll bring some of your guys on and i'm looking forward to that and actually before we go we have paul outside he was in the studio for a minute and i think he's i think he's working on a few things out there but he his whole thing is so interesting how you two came together because you didn't know each other you just sent him him a DM or something like that. Yeah, and he's got a huge following. I saw him on every morning show, and I didn't know that there were fires in the rainforest.
Starting point is 03:17:51 He does this video just basically saying, wake up, pay attention, and he's in the fires. Literally in there, and he's about to go leave to go protect against wildfire season out there. The guy's a badass. So I reached out to him, and I'm like dude, like this guy is my type of people. And I was like, hey, brother, I really appreciate what you do. Like, would love to connect with you sometime.
Starting point is 03:18:14 And maybe there's a way that we can support. Maybe there's gear donations or, you know, we do teach some things that may apply. And if we can sponsor some training. And I was blown away when he responded like quickly too because i saw that he followed vet paul that blew my mind he was a fan and then he responded to me and my personal dms like nah he's a humble uh dude and he's totally psycho with anacondas yeah take a look at him on youtube you couldn't pay me enough money to do that yeah it's it's he's got like tarzan it's yeah it's nuts but to me it's it especially
Starting point is 03:18:51 meeting you in person for the first time and it was the two of you like going going to get a beer last night it is so effective from like the outsider like me sitting there for the first time and hearing both of you because you are two different organizations both focus on conservation in different ways in different types of environments on two full continents south america in his case with the amazon and africa in your case and that is some powerful shit like i'm just speaking from my chair i'm like you guys should go everywhere together because now you guys are ambassadors for each other's organizations officially, right? Yeah. Well, he is for ours.
Starting point is 03:19:29 I'm still waiting. Oh, you're still waiting on your invite? No, no, no. Fuck you, Paul. We're stronger together. I know. Jesus, man. You believe that guy?
Starting point is 03:19:36 No, we're stronger together than we are apart, and that goes with any conservationist. We'll work with anybody and everybody. You got to have the right values, dedication, and you're good people to us. That's awesome. And like I said, we'll do a podcast with him as well. I'm looking forward to that. That'll be really good. But I love what you're doing.
Starting point is 03:19:52 I love that we could give this a platform here. I look forward to doing it again. In the meantime, where can people make the donations? On vetpaul.org directly? Vetpaul.org. On our donate page, there's an address to send a check to paypal um there's ways you can donate stock you can um put us in your your will um any i'm telling you gear binoculars uh you name it outdoor gear if that's all that you have and you're not using it and
Starting point is 03:20:22 it's in your garage it's in decent condition that's huge dude we can we can donate that to a park ranger or shoot i mean some of our guys need stuff do you guys have a place for something like that that's really specific do you have a a an address in america where they can send that where you take care of the rest so sure so usually what we do is you email us at info at vetpaul.org because if we just put the address, some – we got a lot of well-intended veterans, but they may give us their boot camp boots that smell or tore up. So, we just got to make sure that it's decent gear first, but that doesn't take much to be decent. All right. So, info at vetpaul.org. Yep.
Starting point is 03:21:04 They can email that to help more. And then I want to make sure we hit everything. You got the Instagram. Is that at vetpaul? At vetpaul. Twitter, Facebook, everything is vetpaul. Content's great, by the way. The videos are amazing.
Starting point is 03:21:16 Thanks. Yeah, Tyke's killing it, and so are the guys on the ground. So go follow them there, and then that has all the links, too, where they can go donate. And if you want to come visit in Africa, there's a sign-up website, Ecotourism. Pay a very good price to come out to Africa, and all that money goes back into our operations. Oh, wow. So you guys sponsor, like, some tours, too. Oh, yeah.
Starting point is 03:21:36 You're coming out. You're coming out. We're going to do a podcast out there. You got to get me out of here, but yeah. No, no. We're going to do that. We'll do it. That's on my – I told you. That's all my bucket list, like to do the African Safari.
Starting point is 03:21:47 All right. Well, it's an expectation now, so. Yeah. Paul wants me to go up in the fucking trees in the Amazon. I'm like, eh. Well, you saw that guy. The heights there, I don't know. I don't know.
Starting point is 03:21:56 You're talking like thousands of feet. I'm not a heights guy, but I'll go on the ground in the Amazon. Cool. We'll figure that out too. We'll keep you on the ground in Africa. Okay, cool. We'll have a good time. But listen, thank you so much for doing this. We'll figure that out too. We'll keep you on the ground in Africa. Okay, cool. We'll have a good time. But listen,
Starting point is 03:22:06 thank you so much for doing this. I really, really appreciate this. Everyone has all the links of where to go. We'll do some more content on this in the future and I'm really glad
Starting point is 03:22:13 we got this in today. Thanks, brother. We appreciate you, man. You're part of the family now. Love it. And thank you for everything you do as well. This is a really cool thing
Starting point is 03:22:20 you're doing for the world. Thanks, man. All right. Everybody else, you know what it is. Give it a thought. Get back to me peace

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