Julian Dorey Podcast - [VIDEO] - The Haunting Disappearance of the First US Colony | Andy Powell • 202

Starting point is 00:00:00 He goes back and he finds nothing. There's no sign of them. Very, very interesting. He talks about the houses all being taken down. This is his words. He says, we found the houses taken down and the place very strongly enclosed with a high palisade of great trees with corteens and flankers, very fort-like. And one of the chief trees or posts on the right side of the entrance had the bark taken off and five foot from the ground in fair capital letters was graven Croatoan without any cross or sign of distress. What's up, guys? If you're on Spotify right now, please follow the show so that you don't miss any future episodes and leave a five-star review. Thank you.

Starting point is 00:00:50 Andy Gabriel Powell, welcome to New Jersey, sir. Thank you very much indeed, Julian. It's great to have you here. We had an amazing conversation on the phone last month about having you in. You are essentially the preeminent historian of what is potentially the real founders of America. This is something I got to give Alessi over here credit. He was the one who turned me on to this. I had no idea about the lost colony of Roanoke. He started showing me some of the write-ups on it. I was like, all right, we got to get this guy in. How did you get into this case though? You've been doing this for like 20 years now, no? Yeah. Actually, it's kind of a crazy story. I was a counselor or commissioner, whatever you

Starting point is 00:01:34 call them here, for the local council in Biddeford in North Devon. And in 2006, this guy turned up at the council and he had a little presentation clock and he was American and he said like to thank Biddeford for 20 years of being a Twin City and we were okay what Twin City are you from um where I'm from Manteo Manteo or Manteo as they say. Right. Where is Manio? It's in North Carolina. Okay. North Carolina. Isn't that one of them American states? Okay.

Starting point is 00:02:10 Right. So at this point, the town clerk was kind of close to reaching for the phone, you know, seriously, because we had no record of it. Nobody knew anything about it. We have, when we have twin cities, we put signs up everywhere that we are twinned with this city, that city. There's like nothing, nothing whatsoever. So it became a bit of a thing because it got picked up by the press and it went global.

Starting point is 00:02:35 And we got labelled the town that forgot it was twinned. And more unkindly, what a clock up was one of the titles that we saw in the newspapers. But of course, we were a little embarrassed by it, but Manio told us they had a great year with tourism because everyone wanted to know where this town of Manio was that had this thing going on. So to cut a long story short, in 2008, the then mayor of the day, myself as deputy mayor uh the town clerk um we basically paid our own way

Starting point is 00:03:08 to come to america to find out what on earth this crazy twinning and story was and what was it actually all about um so uh i must say the people of manio treated us royally we were we were taken everywhere we went to jamestown we went to willburg, and of course, we had plenty of time in Manio as well. Is that it on the map right there? That's right. If you look at the island there, the island is the island of Roanoke, and Manio is the main town right there. That's it. You've got it right there. There you go. This is right by the Otter Banks. Yeah. Pretty cool place, by the way. I have to tell you, great little town. Quick plug for the town there, but it is a great little place to go. Gotcha.

Starting point is 00:03:48 And, of course, that's where you're going to see, you know, the National Park Service place, the Festival Park, where they're doing reenactments and you can get more of the story. So this is what happened to us. In 2008, they took us to Fort Raleigh, the National Park Service place. They took us to the Festival Park. They showed us all this thing. And they told us this crazy story about these people from England,

Starting point is 00:04:13 mainly from Biddeford, who came over in 1587 to build a colony and settle in America, and then three years later, completely vanished. So that was just the most bizarre thing I think I've ever heard you know we're talking 120 people it just vanished and of course they were from some of them was definitely from Biddeford and the guy that bought them over was a gentleman called Sir Richard Grenville who was the original Lord of the Manor of Biddeford in the olden days, in the 1500s.

Starting point is 00:04:47 But as I say, we had no information about this at all. When we looked into it, it was all Sir Walter Raleigh. Well, it was and it wasn't. So from that, I thought, I've just got hooked on this. I've just got to get to the bottom of this crazy, crazy story. And you're still deputy mayor at this time. I was still deputy mayor, and then I got elected as mayor. Can we pull up that picture of you as mayor?

Starting point is 00:05:17 We've got to find that, unless you'll pull it up. You keep going. Yeah, it's kind of a cool thing. But I became mayor of Biddeford. And then at my inauguration speech, I made this big statement that I thought that people from Biddeford were the true founding fathers of America. And so, of course, that stirred everything up. And we ended up with it making the national headlines in some of our papers.

Starting point is 00:05:44 And it even made, I think, Washington Post, New York Times, that this crazy Brit wearing this ridiculous uniform. That is some swag right there, my man. That's the thing about you Brits. You guys have such over-the-top type garb and things you do, and then in America we're just like, it's like me rolling around in a beanie. Well, you're missing the tricorn hat there and the white gloves and the fact that i had two mace bearers and a sergeant at all and i even had a town club a town crier who would run in walk along in front

Starting point is 00:06:17 of me going oh yay oh yay make way for the mayor like with tears and shit or they're a crier? No, no, town crier. Yeah, right. Okay. Yeah, American joke here, guys. So, yeah, you know, he would literally have to scroll in front and ring the bell and, like, you know, make way for the mayor of Biddeford sort of thing, shout at the top of his voice. And so this whole thing. But, of course, it gave me an opportunity to get into this story.

Starting point is 00:06:44 And when I made this announcement, I didn't expect to get the response I got. Within days, somebody contacted me and said, I've got some books you might be interested in. And these were the extraordinary books that were written by Richard Hacklett, who was commanded by Queen Elizabeth I to record all the famous voyages and travels and explorations of the British people during her reign. And he gave me full access to it. And I studied it and just found more and more things about it. And then, as I say, one thing after another, it just became an obsession. Yeah. And you were showing me, we're going to get into some of the things like as it comes up in actual context but before we were on camera you were showing me some of these documents that you know they would have to write

Starting point is 00:07:36 they obviously couldn't make copies so they'd have to write it multiple times by hand and we're talking i mean people see it later we're talking a lot of words and then on top of it i'm just thinking about you studying this stuff and coming into this in like 06 07 08 the language that they wrote in i was asking you if there was like welsh in there or something because it's not only it's not only like different offshoots of like the english language but there's also different letters and some of it's in handwriting that you can't even read. Like, how did you teach yourself to be able to even understand this? Well, for the books by Richard Hackler were actually printed.

Starting point is 00:08:16 So that helped a little bit, but they still are written in the old English language. And it's not just the words are very different. You know, words that they would use mean different things in those days. It was also the context in which they wrote them. The way that they would express themselves is kind of like, I had to look at it and reread it about half a dozen times. What are they actually saying here? What would this be if we translated it into modern English? So that was a big thing. But thankfully, a very good friend of mine back in England, David Carter, I must give him a plug there. He is a specialist

Starting point is 00:08:52 at reading this old English language. And with his help, I managed to kind of grasp the way it was written. But between us, we've managed to understand what was actually being written in these documents. So it's been a long journey. It took me fully seven years of research and studying these documents to put the story together. And you moved to America for good at one point, right? Yeah, I did. February 16th. February 2016.

Starting point is 00:09:23 2016, yeah. Okay, got it. And where do you live now? Greenville, South Carolina. Which is not near where this is. No, I would have loved to, when I first came over, I really wanted to live in the Outer Banks area because that would have made it easier to further the quest because we still have a lot of unanswered questions. But in truth truth it's the sheer cost of living there uh the seasonal work that's available so yeah you know i i ended up in

Starting point is 00:09:52 greenville south carolina and you wrote a book about it we have it right here let me hold that sucker up so it is called richard grenville and the lost colony of roanoke this is essentially like the bible on this issue. And I wanted to bring this up early on because this was something we had talked about on the phone a lot. But you were featured in a bunch of History Channel stuff about the lost city of Roanoke. And it's History Channel. It's very hit or miss with some things. You may be going on camera for a very long time giving people tours of areas doing

Starting point is 00:10:26 interviews but then they're going to cut it down to get their 45 minute episodes here and there and one of the things you had told me was that you felt like they left a lot of they left a lot of open-ended things in there where they cut out things you said to try to i guess sell something in the future where they're going to be talking about this so i wanted to make sure you had a chance to write that all today but maybe it's best we start at the beginning with the actual story and then as you go along you want to add in color of where history channel didn't include this or got this wrong or whatever let's do that so as we know it in america is at least in culture we think of it, we think of two things. We think of Christopher Columbus founding the Americas and then I think a lot of people do know he didn't actually find like America, the USA.

Starting point is 00:11:15 He found somewhere in the Caribbean. And then we think of the pilgrims and that was 1607? 1620. 1620. So 1620 up in Massachusetts. They meet with the Indians, have Thanksgiving, probably kill them all afterwards. But, you know, that was the whole story. What you're getting at here, as you laid out, is that this is potentially the first colony before them and before Jamestown in 16... 1607 for Jamestown and this is 1587.

Starting point is 00:11:42 Okay. So who were the people who came from England and landed in Roanoke allegedly in 1587? Okay. So what I'd like to do, if it's okay with you, Julian, is to run through it on a little bit of a timeline. Yes, please. Because one of the questions that I come across quite often, one of the sort of myths, if you like, is that these colonists were all criminals. That's one of the kind of joke things that I've heard around, and it's complete nonsense, and I can explain why. But initially, the whole thing about America

Starting point is 00:12:19 was because the Spanish were doing rather well in Mexico and South America, making a lot of money, bringing a lot of gold back to Spain. The French were trying to settle in the St. Lawrence River way in Canada, of course. And France and Spain at that time were serious enemies to Britain. They were a threat. And, of course, they were building their military, their ships, et cetera, through the wealth of the money that they were bringing back from the Americas. So England kind of was a little bit late to the party, if you like. And so this whole thing was driven by we need to get in on this Americas thing.

Starting point is 00:13:03 We need to find what's going on there and develop our own colonies and obviously find the wealth there and bring it back for ourselves as well. So what actually happened originally was that the basic timeline is that in 1583, a gentleman, I've forgotten his name, why have I forgotten his name? Gilbert, that's right, half-brother to Sir Walter Raleigh, got a charter from Queen Elizabeth to explore America. So the first place he landed was Newfoundland,

Starting point is 00:13:42 and he declared that Newfoundland would be a British colony. It was the Newfoundland, which, by the way, Newfoundland was the first part of the British Empire. So the slightly nerdy off-topic thing there. Anyhow, he drowned on the return voyage. And then his, you know. Gilbert. Yeah, Gilbert drowned on his return voyage.

Starting point is 00:14:04 And Sir Walter Raleigh, being in favor with Queen Elizabeth at the time, was able to pick up the charter and carry on. Can you explain what you mean by charter and how that works and how the Queen would decide? Okay, yeah. A charter is essentially a mandate. It's a document that says, I give you the right to go and explore

Starting point is 00:14:25 this new land and see if you can make money out of it for seven years. But obviously, Queen Elizabeth wanted a cut on that, if you like. So yeah, it kind of, yeah, there's some things don't change, right, guys? But that's essentially what a charter is. It was just a mandate to do, a license to go and try and make something out of it. So, Sir Walter Raleigh picks this up. He then organizes a surveying mission in 1584, which is known as the Amardas and Barlow Voyage. 1585, there's the military colony. This is Sir Ralph Lane. He goes over and it's essentially the military colonies kind of building a bridgehead, you know, securing the land, securing an area to bring in planters, colonists, you know, people behind them. There's a resupply mission to the military colony in 1586. And then 1587, that's when we get the lost colony or the colony arriving of the, you know, Mr. and Mrs. Average coming in to settle, build the colony.

Starting point is 00:15:33 How did they, and this is probably a little bit of a dumb question, but I always think about this. They're going to explore new land. A lot of it's uncharted. Obviously, when Columbus did it,, it was completely uncharted. They know northwest, east, and south, but how – did they have an idea at all at this point post-Columbus of the mass of land that could be there and did they have a aiming point if you will or were they just like going all right let's go west drift with the sea maybe we go south maybe we go north wherever the sea goes and we land where we land uh they had a starting point and that starting point was that they knew that spain was active uh in mexico in the caribbean and of course florida uh you know, was a Spanish colony. So they knew the Spanish were there already.

Starting point is 00:16:25 Still is. Still is, yeah, absolutely. So, and it was kind of a weird time, actually, because when this initial attempt to settle this colony first started, 1584, 1585, there was still kind of an arm's length gentleman's agreement between Spain and England the Spanish knew the Brits were up to something but they didn't know quite what so they were kind of they weren't at war with each other so because of the way the trade winds work what you would do

Starting point is 00:17:01 is you would sail from England you would go via the Canary Islands the Azores, what you would do is you would sail from England, you would go via the Canary Islands, the Azores, and then you would end up in the Caribbean, which of course is exactly what Christopher Columbus did. The winds would take you naturally to the Caribbean. So in the Caribbean, of course, they do kind of, the Spanish know they're there because the Spanish are everywhere in the Caribbean. But of course, they allowed them to, as they used to say, get fresh water, meat, et cetera, and what have you, and carry on where they were going. So Amada Zambalo, on the exploratory voyage, sailed up past Florida, keeping well offshore because they knew the Spanish were there. And then they came across Cape Fear.

Starting point is 00:17:46 You know, she's a promontory, tends to stick out a little bit on the coast. And from there on, they thought, well, that's the limit of the Spanish possessions. They kind of knew roughly how far up the coast the Spanish had got. So they knew that north of that was kind of uncharted territory. They knew the French were in St. Lawrence River Way in Canada, but of course they knew that that was that much further north. So there was this white bit on the map, if you like, between Canada and sort of Florida,

Starting point is 00:18:16 where as far as they knew, there was nobody there. So they aimed for that area. Did they think natives might be there? Yeah, but then so did, you know, the U.S. Cavalry. They knew that there were Indians there. So we arrived and, you know, they were looking for somewhere to settle a colony, basically. And they followed the coastline up. And Arthur Barlow, Captain Arthur Barlow in his journal, he talks about seeing an entrance in the land.

Starting point is 00:18:51 And he thought it was like a river estuary. So it would be a safe place to go and moor up and explore and see what was there. So where they actually sailed in is somewhere close to the Oregon Inlet today, which is just south of Roanoke Island. And then they moored up and there was nobody about. So they set about exploring. But it's kind of an interesting story, actually. It's kind of first contact, if you like, in 1584.

Starting point is 00:19:22 What do you mean? Well, so this is really what happened. Arthur Barlow and Philip Amardus are two ships. They moored up on the Outer Banks by the Oregon Inlet, as it is today. And they're sort of surveying, is this land going to be a good place to settle um and then he records that uh they'd been there a couple of days and then they saw this canoe um with three savages as they called the native american indians at that time um sort of and then they watched this canoe and he records that the canoe with the three croans, pulls up at the beach close to where the ships are, and then one walks up and down the shore surveying the ship there. And eventually, Barlow and a couple of the others get into one of their rowboats and row ashore and actually meet with him. And he says that the Native American Indian shows no fear

Starting point is 00:20:28 because obviously you've never seen white man before, I guess. And then what happens then is that the Native American Indian does some fishing and brings back and leaves on the shore a load of fresh fish for the English. Kind of interesting thing, you know, as a gift for the gods, maybe. Who knows? Guys, if you're still watching this video and you haven't yet hit that subscribe button, please take two seconds and go hit it right now.

Starting point is 00:20:57 Thank you. And then a few days later, the Amardus and Barlow meet the Croatoan king. That's what they called him? He wasn't the king. The name that they used was the local name was Wererance, but it meant the king, basically. So, you know, Barlow refers to him as the king because he was clearly the head honcho of the nation that they met.

Starting point is 00:21:22 So they meet and then they do a little bit of feasting, they exchange gifts, et cetera. They meet up and Amardas and Barlow actually get invited to the King's Village, which was at that time on the north end of Roanoke Island, roughly where the Elizabethan Gardens are today. And then, of course, they then spend a few days exploring the area. They sail up the Albemarle and the Pamlico Sound and explore the general area, get a survey, get a feeling for what's there and whether it's a good place to settle a colony.

Starting point is 00:21:54 I'm curious what the logistics are here with the people. You had said a little bit ago, and I don't know if this changed along the story, but it was like 140 people or so coming on these boats. No, this is the survey voyage from 1584 so how many people are on okay so you've literally just got two captains and some crew on these ships so these are literally just two small sailing ships uh difficult to know the numbers they don't actually record uh the numbers that are there but um you could say perhaps 50 maybe 60 sailors okay so it's really all it is it's just two small ships on an exploratory mission not trying to attract too much attention because they weren't fully aware where the Spanish were and obviously if they'd have sailed there with a fleet of seven or eight warships the Spanish

Starting point is 00:22:41 would have thought you know we're going to have a bit of a scrap here. So two small ships is kind of insignificant. What I think is quite funny, when you look at the Outer Banks today, it is mainly sandbanks, okay? But Barlow actually, in his report back to Sir Walter Raleigh, he says, I think in all the world, the like abundance is not to be found. So he's kind of saying that this is the land of milk and honey and that there's everything there we could possibly want to set up a colony. Was that just over excitement or based on empirical evidence? I think pretty much he's kind of saying, thinking, well, it's probably not great here, but I can't very well go back after Walter Raleigh spent all that money.

Starting point is 00:23:30 And bearing in mind, he was friendly with the queen and say, I didn't really find anywhere to set up a colony. Because in those days it was off with your head, you know, so. Yeah, it was a better system back then. Results are you're done. Solves a lot of problems, guys. So, you know, it's kind of interesting. He has to report something. And so he comes back with this message. It's a fantastic, wonderful milk and honey. It's Valhalla. It's everything. What I find really interesting about the 1584 voyage is the last statement about that voyage is he says,

Starting point is 00:24:10 we brought home also two of the savages being lusty men whose names were Wanchese and Manteo. Lusty men? Lusty men. Like they were trying to fuck them? No, no, no. Big. Big guy. You see, this is that classic thing, isn't it, guys?

Starting point is 00:24:26 You can't take me to dinner parties. I'm sorry. Well, I don't know, actually. It could be quite a laugh. No, you've got this thing. Again, it's that classic thing of what the language was, it meant in those days. In those days, lusty meant sort of big, beefy, strong men.

Starting point is 00:24:46 And these days, it doesn't necessarily mean they're lusty. No, it does not. But it's really important because they persuaded two of these Native American Indians to come back to England with them. That's what that message is saying. Wait, they got the Crotones to come to England with them? They got two of them, one called Juan Chis and one called Manteo, to come back to England with them. Okay? This is on record. This is on record. So we know the Croatoans. Yeah, I can show you the entry in the 1600 edition if you really need it. But yeah,

Starting point is 00:25:18 they bring these two guys back. Quick question, I'm sorry. Yeah, go for it. This is blowing my mind a little bit. There's a lot here to blow your mind with, trust me. So this time, as you said, is exploratory. We're in 1584. 1584, correct. Okay. So they don't set up a colony, but they visit with the chief, they shake hands. And you said it was just the two of them would go on to land and visit with the chief. I guess the crew stays behind.

Starting point is 00:25:40 Well, a small party. They describe it as a small party that met the chief. I would imagine that most of the sailors and crews stayed close to the ship. They also talk about sort of rowing off into some of the creeks and rivers and exploring the area in general. So, you know, it would have been a small party. So the amount of people, you know, maybe a dozen people you could get in a rowing boat or something like that so point being the argument here of if they set up a colony doesn't happen till 1587 but if what you just told me is true does that mean that we have basically no argument that as of right now on the information we have they were the first people to at least land in greater us and a uh this is the first recorded uh evidence we have of first contact between english and native americans in you know yeah this is like you numero uno. So this seems to make the argument about if there was a colony a lot easier.

Starting point is 00:26:51 They literally brought home a couple souvenirs in the form of people. That's about it. Like what's the question here? Okay. Well, there's no question. What they were doing, although it's not actually recorded how they agreed that they would take these two back, one chiefs of Manteo were clearly deemed by the king of the Croatoans to be worthy representatives of the Croatoan nation. what conversation probably took place was they may well have shown them a picture we don't know this is not documented that but they may well have shown a picture of Queen Elizabeth in all her refinery and what have you because what we do know is that the Croatoans were really really keen on all the fancy sort of clothes and everything that of course the English were wearing at that

Starting point is 00:27:43 period as you've seen on the front cover that that's a pretty cool outfit to be wearing. And if they turn up wearing that sort of stuff, and of course, they have swords and they have muskets and they have all this paraphernalia with them. We got to bring that stuff back. I mean, yeah, I mean, yeah, we need it. We really need it. You know, just think about it without getting into the politics. Your musket has only got one shot and it's going to take you 30 seconds to get it set up to fire it not that part you can

Starting point is 00:28:08 run away by then you know guys not not that part the rest of it though we'll keep the ar-15s or the ak-47s but we'll get the swag you get the swag absolutely get the swag um pretty glorious swag too um but no if you think about it native american indians never seen white man before they could almost be men from outer space whatever you know they've never seen him before um and then they showed you know they got all this finery and they got these two huge ships which are a lot bigger than the dugout canoe uh that have sailed across this ocean that the croatoans have no idea what's on the other side of that ocean. And then they show them the picture of this woman that they bow to, Queen Elizabeth.

Starting point is 00:28:52 And then you've also got to bear in mind that the Croatoan society was matriarchal. The women, although there was a king, the women made the key decisions. So what more sort of affinity could a Native American tribe have than to say we'll send two of our best representatives to meet this great sort of queen of these people that have all this finery and these ships and all that. Did they think she was like a god kind of? There's no suggestion of that. Discover the exciting action of BetMGM Casino.

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Starting point is 00:29:59 I think they must have seen that as very powerful. And you've got to bear in mind that we do know that Barlow and Amardus, i.e. the people on these ships, they fired off their weapons. So that would have been the first time these Croatoans saw them, I don't know, kill a deer at 200 yards with a single shot rather than trying to use bow and arrows to bring the thing down. And you have to bear in mind that Native American tribes of that period were at war with each other. Like, let's break that down.

Starting point is 00:30:34 Yeah. They weren't all friendly with each other. Some of these tribes would fall out. It's exactly the same as it through history. there might be a marriage between two, you know, a guy and a woman from two different tribes to make it all more friendly and like peace treaty. And then there might have been others that they were having a skirmish with and having to fight with all the time. So if you're the king of the Croatoans and you've got these guys that have got these fire sticks, shall we call them that,

Starting point is 00:31:06 you know, these guns and what have you, they would be pretty useful allies on your side if you got into a fight with another tribe. So was it going through their mind that this is actually a pretty cool idea to actually have, you know, them on your side? And in fact, the drawing that you've just brought up there is thought to be a representation of Manio. So that's certainly what they were wearing,

Starting point is 00:31:32 and that's what they were presented to Queen Elizabeth wearing, essentially. Can you, Alessi, can you go to the Wikipedia page of the Crotones? I just want to see something real quick. The Native American history is something I'm so interested in. I just want to see something real quick. The Native American history is something I'm so interested in that I got to go way deeper on. It's right there on the right side. See ethnic group, right side. Yeah. So do we know how big they were approximately? Like how many people they had? I don't think we do. We know the territory that they tended to uh you know that they had and it was

Starting point is 00:32:05 mainly hattress island roanoke island and a little bit of the coastal shore area um but it's not defined in any of the voyages or any of the transcripts exactly how big their nation was but they were i think you were telling me before, Cameron, they were a subset, like a subsidiary offshoot group of the Algonquin tribe? Correct, yeah. They were Algonquin. Much of their dress, much of their language was Algonquin. So they were part of the Algonquin nation, as it were. Although, obviously, at that time, we had no comprehension of what the Algonquin nation was.

Starting point is 00:32:42 Right. So how many major tribes were active in America at this time? Are we talking like 10, 20? I would suggest hundreds. But I mean, when I say major, I mean like not just like Crotones and their equals, but like the Algonquins and their equals. You know what I mean? So the Algonquins, I mean, on the East Coast, you had the Algonquins. Further north, the people that were essentially met with the Pilgrim Fathers were the Iroquois nation. And then I forget the name, but there was another nation down in Florida, which is still very prevalent down there now. So there were these larger groups, but then you've still got things like the Cheyenne were a nation, et cetera, in Western North Carolina. They hadn't met them at

Starting point is 00:33:34 that time, of course. I dare say the Catawba were a large tribe, but I think Catawba were possibly Algonquin. I'm not sure about that. We really don't know how many sort of ethnic sort of groups there were in America at the time. I think from one of the best sources I've seen, I think quotes about 30 or 40 nations. And then you had the wild, wild west. You had the Comanches, the Lakota, and there's a ton of others out there too. And that's completely at this point, like unknown world wow okay so they take the two comanches back to two crotoans back to england crotoans back to england yeah um interesting point and i can uh email this to you if you want it um but this is the map that arthur barlow drew of the outer banks yeah can you give

Starting point is 00:34:26 that to alessi he'll put it in the corner of the screen sure okay and actually let me take a look at that if you don't mind so what what year was this from 1586 no this is 1584 this is the map that arthur barlow drew of what he saw the locations so he's looking west that's correct bottom to top is is east to west absolutely and you'll note there there's a small uh island on its own with some scribbling on it um and that's it says a king's isle well that's roanoke whoa that's like do we still have that map up alas yeah that's pretty good that's not bad for a sketch is it it's like really good god i always wonder that like how the first people came up with actually being able to get the get the size i mean he's a little off on sizing but that's very impressive okay so if you think that's good wait until i show you the map that john white drew a year later so johnny white had to show

Starting point is 00:35:29 him yeah would you like me to just uh pitch that one to you now yeah let's see it okay let me uh and where did you get these maps again uh these are all in the uh various archives. So we have a national archive in England. Some of them are in the British Museum. They're literally all over the place. You really kind of have to dig deep and look in about 30 or 40 different sources to find some of this stuff. Let me put there. There we are. Who drew that first map again we just looked at?

Starting point is 00:36:08 Right. So it's, well, we don't know exactly who drew it, but it's attributed to Captain Arthur Barlow, one of the captains of the two ships. And now you want to show me the whites. Yeah. Now, there is a belief that that map was drawn by John White and that he was on the 1584 voyage.

Starting point is 00:36:28 I think if he was on that voyage, then you would have seen a slightly better map than that. And I can show you John White's effort a year later if you'd like to see that. Let's see it. Okay. This is another one I probably need to send. Someone's going to the hospital out there

Starting point is 00:36:45 right now sometimes the ambulance is a noise that actually gets through we have really good sound well i'm sure we wish them uh much health much health so let me punch that in there and add that oh yeah let's see i forgot to tell you that was the thing he was showing me right before this yeah yeah if you stick up the third screen right now for people to see we're gonna Oh yeah, let's see. I forgot to tell you. That was the thing he was showing me right before. This? Yeah, yeah. If you stick up the third screen right now for people to see. We're going to take a look at this in a little bit. This is nuts. The story behind this too.

Starting point is 00:37:14 That was the one you said they had to copy like three times or something. Like by hand. Yeah, look at that. Quill pen. Makes you appreciate all the stuff we have now. When I see what these people had to do just like take a shit I mean my god

Starting point is 00:37:28 there's no lines like it's all perfectly written yeah yeah it's and they have like they even have like the beginning of the chapter thing where they write in bigger font themselves so why won't that let me get in there I need to open up

Starting point is 00:37:44 sorry I'm just struggling here a moment no it's all good i i actually side note while while andy's looking you had told me a few weeks ago to listen to that what's his name taylor sheridan is that it yeah yeah the the guy the guy who does who does yellowstone which i hadn't really watched Yellowstone. Yeah. That was a great recommendation. That was an amazing Rogan episode. But I went and watched 1883. How good is that?

Starting point is 00:38:17 Shit's nuts, bro. Dude, I'm glad you watched it. That one left Emily and I shook. And it's only like 140 years ago. You think about it, the the wild wild west that was and how just you know people just died didn't make it across the river today yeah get a cut you're screwed oh my god like rattlesnake bit you while you were taking a piss like you're you just watch it and and they just like oh well, well, he's gone. Let's move on. And you're like, this is not that long ago. And now looking at this wall, looking at what we have now. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:38:54 It's crazy. They would just drop like flies. Like you see how, you know, not giving anything away, but just like how it was. Like they would literally caravan over and like more than 50 percent would be gone like they just would drop and it was just so common and the guys that took care of them that were guiding them out they're like look most you're gonna die yeah it's like what a risk no no court system it's just just quarter the gun that's it just like kill each other yeah and you know and by the way people if you are not in our patreon alessi and i do an

Starting point is 00:39:26 episode like this now every week where we actually go back and forth on stuff for you know an hour and a half two hours but little plug right there in the description but anyway i'm just like blown away at how at how many how many things could possibly go wrong at every instant. Like it's less surprising if we're talking about like 1550 or something. But you think – because right now we're talking about 1585. Like all the things that could go wrong. Okay, that makes sense. Like 1883, like Malacca, we had fought like two major wars

Starting point is 00:40:03 in the last hundred- some years at that point. It's crazy. And by the way, Andy's telling me to take a quick time out because he's got to find this file. So we'll be right back, everybody. All right, we're back. So we're going to use, unless you'll just go back and forth between the HDMIs to keep that easy. So we have it. Wait, this is the map you were talking about in 1586?

Starting point is 00:40:23 This is 1585. Now, obviously Barlow and Amardus have gone back and said, land of milk and honey. And then what they do is Raleigh gets together with his cousin, Sir Richard Grenville, and says, I need a military colony to build a bridgehead there, and we're going to send over a guy who can record what you see, which you want a painter to do that in those days because nobody had a camera of course um and the this particular map that you can see on the screen there virginia pars which is what it's known as

Starting point is 00:40:56 this is the map that uh john white drew of the outer banks of north North Carolina in 1585. How did they get it that good? They don't have a drone. No, and it's pretty much. Or did they? It's pretty much. Yeah, okay. No, no, no, no. Conspiracy theory is here, you know, guys.

Starting point is 00:41:17 What I find extraordinary is you can see the Pamlico Sound, you can see the Albemarle Sound, you can see Roanoke, you can see Ocracoke Island, you can see the Albemarle Sound, you can see Roanoke, you can see Ocracoke Island, you can see Hatteras Island there. The sort of angular piece in the middle of Hatteras Island is obviously the point around Hatteras Point, where it's Cape Hatteras there today. And of course, you can see Lake Matamaskik, which is the large inland lake there. And that's very much, you can see that on modern day maps as well. So incredibly detailed map. Lots to talk about on this map.

Starting point is 00:41:53 But yeah, there you go. And that's pretty cool. There's Roanoke there. So quite extraordinary map. There is quite a story behind this map, which is kind of jumping a little bit forward in the story if you want to go there now because we've got the map up we can do that yeah yeah we'll go whatever you think is good okay so when you look closely at this map you can see and you can see right now on the left of the screen there can you see that that little patch? There you go, that little patch. There is another

Starting point is 00:42:26 patch on the map further down on the map as well, which is much larger. Now, there we go. Right there. Right there. You can see- Across the fingers. Absolutely. Now, there was a great deal made a few years ago about that patch, the top patch that's on that fork in the river there. Because underneath that patch, there is a big mark that looks like a fort. Okay. A fort.

Starting point is 00:42:54 A fort, like a place, X marks a spot, this is where we're going to build our town. Okay. And much has been made of it. But no, guys. okay um and much has been made of it but um no guys uh in 1585 when john white was making this map that map has been studied it's been x-rayed it's been treated all sorts of uh investigative sort of uh methods and the map is littered with sort of corrections okay where things have been painted over ships have been painted over outlines have been changed you can see that that there's two patches on there well that patch is covering uh a large sort of x marks a spot uh fort is this i'm

Starting point is 00:43:38 just i'm just asking like while we're on this like is that stuff is that what you're talking about like no we literally see blotches? No. No, that's just the age on the map. If you look to that, there you go, where are the cursories right now? Yeah, those ones are obvious. Right. Well, that is the obvious point, right?

Starting point is 00:43:56 Now, underneath that, they found when they x-rayed it, a large sort of square mark that has been described as a hidden fault. And you're like, no. No, guys. No good evidence. I've actually got the report that has the information on there, and I can cover that for you from that. It's on the PowerPoint that I've got there, what's actually been said about it.

Starting point is 00:44:20 My point is that the map is covered in mistakes that have all been painted over or pieces of paper stuck on it. And it's very, very clear that in the military colony of 1585, they decide that the Outer Banks is not a great place to build a town. Okay. Very shallow water. Some of the natives on the mainland are starting to get into fights with them etc um and the main thing is you know it's very shallow water there's not a lot of food there you can't really grow crops on sand etc um and the military colony does a lot of exploration and one of the explorations they make is to chesapeake Bay, where Jamestown is. Hmm. Okay.

Starting point is 00:45:06 Way ahead of when Jamestown was. Absolutely. So at that point, they realized there's better places to build the fort, okay, to build your town. But, of course, by then, John White's done this painting with this big blotch that says X marks the spot. That's where we're going to build the town. Because at one point, they thought it was a good place

Starting point is 00:45:25 because it had a deep hang reach, et cetera. But in 1585, there was no such thing as whiteout or Tippex. So what are you going to do? You've got to cover it up. It's been portrayed that it was hidden to ensure that if the map fell into the hands of the Spanish, they wouldn't see the hidden fort. Now, bearing in mind that the Spanish are masters of espionage, do you really think the Spanish wouldn't have looked at that map

Starting point is 00:46:03 and said, I wonder what's under that piece of paper? The Spanish were experts of espionage at that time? There's a lot of records in Elizabethan England that, you know, the Spanish and the English didn't trust each other. There was this entente cordiale. There was this kind of mutual kind of like, we're OK, guys. But, you know, as soon as the backs were turned it was like what are they up to you know because they saw each other as their biggest enemy um so what was going on um you know there's there's documentary evidence and i have got a

Starting point is 00:46:38 quote in here actually at one point where um you know there is this comment that they don't trust this particular spanish guy because they think he's a spy and what have you and we know that the spanish were just very very good at that you know they were curious to know what the english were up to and they were doing all they could to find out well you know to talk about that patch as being some kind of invisible ink message or something like that, it's just nonsense. Essentially, that patch was there to cover up a change of what they were going to do. In 1585, the military colony came to the conclusion that they wanted, that it was better to go to Chesapeake Bay because they found the Indians there were friendly. They found deep water anchorage, there was more room to grow crops.

Starting point is 00:47:29 And so the Indians there were, so they had, I'm trying to keep this straight, they had been there? The military colony had been up to, part of their explorations that they did in 1585 was to make their way to Chesapeake Bay. And where specifically again? Chesapeake Bay. And where specifically again? Chesapeake Bay is literally to the north. So I think it's just off the map.

Starting point is 00:47:50 Yeah, let's pull up. So you've kind of got a representation there, but it's very generic. But that's Chesapeake Bay. Okay. So, yeah. Okay. We're going to disconnect that. We'll probably swing that back over in a little bit when we need something but so then they they go back you said they went back with with two

Starting point is 00:48:15 croatoans in 1585 so let's let's sort that out um so they go back uh with these Croatones, and then they're presented to Queen Elizabeth, and then Sir Walter Raleigh says, okay, we need to get a bridgehead. We need a military colony there to secure the area before we bring in civilians to build our colony. Okay. So Richard Grenville gets the job of leading that colony over there. This is where we get to the myth about why Sir Walter Raleigh never set foot on American soil because it was Richard Grenville that went and you've got the indenture at this point. What was his background? Richard Grenville?

Starting point is 00:49:04 Yeah. Richard Grenville? Yeah. Richard Grenville was a military man. His father was the captain of the Mary Rose. And the Mary Rose was King Henry VIII's flagship. It actually sunk in Portsmouth Harbour. And Richard Grenville lost his father in that. His father was drowned in that. The Mary Rose is actually what's left of it, was raised,

Starting point is 00:49:28 and is now like a major museum in Portsmouth in the south of England. Whoa. Richard Grenville's father, as I say, was a sea captain. He was a military man. And that's what Richard Grenville learned. He cut his teeth as a military man. He went on campaigns against the Ottoman Empire in Hungary. We know that at the age of 19, he was a bit of a naughty boy because he's recorded at the age of 19 of

Starting point is 00:49:55 getting into an argument with someone and I quote, running him through with his sword, meaning he killed someone at 19 with his sword so you called it naughty yeah it was very polite yeah yeah just a little bit delinquent you know um but my point is that he was very very strong well-regarded military man he had campaigns in southern ireland etc so it was he was considered the man for the job. Okay. Okay. And so at this time, how old is he? Let me think. He was born in 1542.

Starting point is 00:50:35 So he's going to be, what, 43 years old. Okay. And so they say, all right, we need to go back over there, set up a military colony, which is then – how would they do that? When they say set up a military colony, obviously you keep using the word fort. What would go into that? Are they building giant walls around somewhere or are they just literally setting up tents? How would it work? Okay. When they arrived on Roanoke Island, they were greeted as friends by the Croatoans. But part of the military, part of the group that went over in 1585 were gentlemen, you know,

Starting point is 00:51:15 there were sir, this, sir, that sort of thing. And so there were two parts of this colony, there was the military people, and then there was all these people who I think basically were being encouraged to go and have a look with a view to you need to invest in my colony. Yeah? You know, they were investors. They were looking out there and seeing what was in it for them and whether they wanted to put their money into it.

Starting point is 00:51:41 So that's one part of what was going on. And those people stayed with the Native Americans in the Croatone village. The sort of riffraff, the general sort of men, you know, if you like, the non-officer ranks, built a fort. Now, the fort would have been built out of what materials were available, and what materials were available, of course, are trees. So they would have built a wooden palisaded fort, probably triangular in design,

Starting point is 00:52:13 which is the design used on the original Jamestown fort because it's very defensible. It's very defendable. When you have sort of like turrets on the corner, you can see along the flanks and what have you. So they would have built that as a military base camp, if you like, for the men. And then from there, of course, they then went off exploring, surveying the land to try and find the gold that they thought might be there. And obviously to find a better anchorage to find a place where they can

Starting point is 00:52:45 settle the colony and and build a future there so the military colony's job was to establish a bridgehead a secure area where they could bring in civilians to plant the land grow crops and establish um you know, something there. And we actually have, you know, some information here about what they were actually, you know, sort of people that they were looking for, but we can come to that in a minute. So you had said they had a crew of, we don't know for sure,

Starting point is 00:53:19 but the first time they were doing the exploratory mission in 1584, it's a crew, it's a couple captains and a crew of maybe 50 60 guys when sir richard richard grenville goes over is it a similar contingent no it's different he's going over uh with a more significant force um he goes over with five ships and- Women and children too? No, just men. And within those ships, there are a number of, as I say, people who are being kind of courted as potential investors. So they're there to see what there is for them in it.

Starting point is 00:53:59 But we know that when Richard Grenville left, sailed back to England after sort of leaving the colony there in 1585, there were 104 military men left behind. Okay. Under the charge of Sir Ralph Lane. So these are pure army. This is a pure militia army, et cetera. And they're armed, obviously. And they're armed.

Starting point is 00:54:24 Yeah, absolutely. And their job is to secure the area. All of those things that you military talk about when you, I suppose you could use the term invasion, if you like. Sure. It wasn't really an invasion, but that's essentially what it was. They were going to secure the area. Okay, the Indians are friendly, so they can stay. But anyone that's not friendly to us, we need to get rid of them and clear the area so that we can say right that's where we can build the colony

Starting point is 00:54:49 that's where it's going to be safe to have the civilians based etc did they have any weaponry besides guns like did they have cannons and stuff too or that left behind there they would have had some small cannon but not so you know these these things are really heavy to maneuver around. So they probably built some defensive positions. They may have had a few cannon on the outer banks sort of just in case. But I think it's more literally what you could carry with you. It's kind of interesting because you remember I mentioned with the 84 voyage that Mardis and Barlow, kind of just two ships, you sail by the Canaries across to the Caribbean and refuel there, if you like, and then sail up the coast.

Starting point is 00:55:33 Well, the Grenville military colony voyage of 1585 did exactly the same thing. But, of course, when they arrive in the Caribbean, you know, the Spanish are a little bit more aware of something big's going on because he turns up with five ships and a load of military men. A little bit kind of interesting here because, and I would love to get this point across if I can, the encounter with the Spanish in the Caribbean is fascinating. Because when they arrive on Hispaniola, so that's Haiti, et cetera, there is this wonderful quote. They meet with the Spanish, and the Spanish are very wary of them

Starting point is 00:56:12 because there's a sizable military force that they can see on these ships. And this is probably Grenville speaking, or one of the men on the crew. He says, our men provided two banqueting houses, one for the gentlemen, the other for the servants, and a sumptuous banquet was bought and served by us with the sound of trumpets and consort of music, so a little band playing, wherewith the Spaniards were more than delighted. Which banquet being ended, the Spaniards, in recompense of our courtesy, caused a great herd

Starting point is 00:56:49 of white bulls to be brought together and appointed for every gentleman and captain a horse, ready saddled, and then they singled out one of the bulls and then gave sport and chased the bull down and finally killed it, et cetera. And he says the pastime grew very pleasant for the space of three hours. So there's this crazy kind of entente cordiale thing going on, you know,

Starting point is 00:57:11 but all the time everyone's wary of each other. What I particularly like about this is that during the course of their Caribbean voyages, they capture a Spanish ship. So they leave Hispaniola and then there's a single Spanish ship. So, well, you know, we'll take the spoils of war sort of thing. So they capture the Spanish ship. And the Spanish captain actually wrote his deposition to say, this is what happened to me when I was in the hands of Grenville.

Starting point is 00:57:42 And he quotes that there were two Indians on board and they were richly dressed, spoke good English and were lovers of music. When they say richly dressed. He's talking about one cheese and Manio coming back. So 1584, they go over as Native Americans. And by the time they come back in 1585 they are richly dressed addressed as englishmen they spoke good english and they love music isn't it fascinating that whole cultural thing goes on in a year so so when one you know manio was the one that was entrusted with looking after the what what became the lost colony but of course he was already very Anglicized in 1585.

Starting point is 00:58:27 Spoke great English already. Spoke great English already. Isn't it fascinating? So fascinating. So I, you know, I'm kind of crazy, but I particularly like that. Do we have evidence that they actually met Queen Elizabeth? What number was she at the time?

Starting point is 00:58:41 Number one, the first one. So she was the first. Yeah, we've only had two Elizabeths. There's only been two? Yeah. I didn't even know that. Yeah, i like i like study royal history a little bit too but i didn't realize that yeah both pretty formidable actually when you think about it because elizabeth the first was kind of the founder of what became the british empire it started under her lead we became a major sea power under her the elizabethan age yeah elizabethan age you know hey and then of course

Starting point is 00:59:05 we had elizabeth the second or elizabeth two as you guys would probably call her you know well we probably give her the second we we give it a few syllables who rules for like 70 years or whatever right you gotta give us some credit i know we're like kind of animals over here compared to you guys but you know we still have some dignity i'm great i'm grateful colonials i mean you know listen you lost the war i'm sorry i hate to break it to you well guys you hid behind trees i mean come on that's cheating listen we gotta use our land to our advantage just because we're not coming out and having tea before we shoot each other you know it would have all blown over if you if you you you know, if you'd have just given us the tea back,

Starting point is 00:59:47 we would have probably gone away. But you didn't. You threw it in the harbor. And I'm sorry, guys, you know us Brits and our tea. That's true. But you guys started it, to be honest with you. Like, what was the whole Lexington massacre? I mean, we're not getting those people back.

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Starting point is 01:00:27 Instacart. Groceries that over-deliver. Yeah, but then it was representation without taxation. And then the first thing when you were on your own, Pennsylvania said, I'm not paying taxes. So you then had to write the Constitution. Goddamn right. They were going to go off and do their own thing, guys. You know, come on, you know.

Starting point is 01:00:46 All right. Anyway, back to the plot. Back to the more fun times where we got along. So anyway, so the military colony has done their explorations, et cetera. One of the big problems with the military colony is they don't know how to look after themselves food-wise. You know, they didn't know how to hunt. They didn't know how to fish. Wait, they didn't know how to hunt they didn't know how to fish uh wait they didn't know how to hunt well i mean you know they would but to skin it and what have you and to provide enough food

Starting point is 01:01:12 for the military colony um they were really pretty you know and the thing is they saw the native american indians as an easy source of food because the Native Americans were quite happy to feed them to start with. Hey guys, if you have a second, please be sure to share this episode around on social media and with your friends, whether it's Reddit, Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, doesn't matter. It's all a huge help. It gets new eyeballs on the show and it allows us to grow and survive. So thank you to all of you who have already been doing that. And thank you to all of you who are going to do so now. But we think at about that time, there was a bit of a famine on the Outer Banks, you know, failed crops, that kind of thing. So friction built up between the Native American Indians and the military colony. What were the main grown sources at the

Starting point is 01:02:02 time? Indian corn. So a type of corn that they made was one of the big things. And then literally it was what you could catch or shoot, deer, rabbit, etc., or if you could fish. But again, the military men, most of them didn't know how to fish. They would have fished with a rod and line, but you can't fish that way on the inland sea. You need to build fish traps. So they didn't know how to do that uh there were a lot of issues so we do have various records you know ralph lane talks all throughout that military colony about food becoming a bit of a problem um and there are a few scraps uh you know there was

Starting point is 01:02:39 there was another incident which didn't go down too well um which was uh that and and i've got the note here um the uh on the 16th of july so 16th of july 1585 um it says the 16th we returned thence and one of our boats with the admiral was sent to uh this native american, to demand the return of a silver cup, which one of the savages had stolen from us. So, you know, they assumed it had been stolen. And then they go on about not receiving it according to his promise. We burned and spoiled their corn and town and all the people being fled or they actually shot some of them. We know that there was something.

Starting point is 01:03:24 Over a cup? Over this silver cup, which they couldn't prove had been stolen anyway. Nice people. Nice people. So, yeah, it's British arrogance, you know. Yeah. Well, at least you can call it like you see it. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:03:39 So they're killing some of the, like, they thought that was going to go over well? Well, at the time probably they did but no it didn't you know evidently um but anyway the point is that it was getting harder and harder for them to uh survive um and in as early 1586 comes along so they've overwintered on the outer banks has gren has grenville gone back yet? Grenville's gone back. Okay. He's left the colony there, stays for months, makes sure they're set up, and then he goes back. When he goes back, he's already aware that he needs to bring more supplies.

Starting point is 01:04:14 Okay. Because as a military man, he's looked at the place and he said, it's a sandbank. It's not the land of milk and honey that Barlow and Amard has said it was. And, of course, he's going to go and tell Sawara Raleigh it's a sandbank. But do they also, I mean, did he have a concept of how, not how much land, but that there was at least significant land west of where they were? No, they only, they didn't know. Not until really, I think it was actually probably 150 years later that they realized

Starting point is 01:04:47 because one of the things they thought was that it would be a shortcut to the spice islands in the east indies you know they they really weren't aware of how wide america was they thought maybe you know a couple of days sort of uh travel over land and we might get to the pacific ocean well it took them a little bit longer than a couple of days you know but they didn't know that at the time um this colony was primarily about if spain can get gold out of mexico and south america there must be gold in america um you know there was no wall street back then unfortunately but you know know, that was one of the main things. It was seen as a source of income for the fledgling British Empire at the

Starting point is 01:05:32 time. That was the whole kind of desire to settle here in America. What actually happened eventually was that Sir Francis Drake, who had just sacked or burnt the fort, the Spanish fort at St. Augustine, sails up the coast and thinks, I'll pop in on the military colony and see how they're doing. So he kind of calls by and tries to offer them a ship and a little bit of help. But what happens in the end, and it's a little bit confused, there seems to have been some storm, there might have been a hurricane going on or whatever. And in the end, he said to the leader of the military colony, Ralph Lane,

Starting point is 01:06:12 do you guys want to lift home? And so having kind of starved and annoyed the Indians and finding it like, you know, getting a bit too much to be there, Ralph Lane said, yeah. So him and all the entire military colony get on Sir Francis Drake's ships and sail for England and essentially abandon Roanoke. So this is 1586? This is like the early, this is about May time, 1586.

Starting point is 01:06:41 So no one's there now? No one's there now. Plot thickens. The plot thickens the plot thickens okay so a couple of things I want to talk about about this colony we've mentioned the the Fort Raleigh thing I'm here to tell you now the the National Park Service Fort Raleigh that 300,000 visit a year sea, okay, on Roanoke Island, is not the Fort Raleigh that Ralph Lane built. Okay. Okay.

Starting point is 01:07:14 What that is, nobody really knows. It's a sconce. It's a very small banked enclosure, and it's actually a reconstruction of something that an archaeologist called J.C. Harrington discovered in 1955. But is it anything to do with the lost colony? I doubt it, because one of the kind of strange things about it is that his reconstruction was built on top of some of his own archaeology, which he said was from that period. So how could the fort be from the same period as the other archaeology? Because you would essentially be building over something

Starting point is 01:07:55 that was still being used at the same time. It doesn't make any sense. Do you see where I'm going with that? No, it doesn't. I mean, you know. So and besides that, it's rather small for 104 military men. You know, it just would never have worked. It's completely the wrong style.

Starting point is 01:08:12 It's also in the wrong location because when you're building a military fort, you first thing is visible from the ocean side, which means if the Spanish came in, they would see it, which is not a good move because you're still a little bit flaky with the Spanish. It's not on the highest ground, which it should have been. Most forts and castles, you look in England at a castle, they're all on top of a hill. No freshwater source nearby and no safe anchorage or deep anchorage for a ship. So strategically, what is Fort Raleigh today is in entirely the wrong place so why do they still insist on showing this politics perhaps what for what no one cares you know

Starting point is 01:08:55 they're not fighting over that for the election you know yeah yeah um but i mean you've got 300,000 people who might think that they've been duped into looking at something which isn't really Fort Raleigh. I don't know what that structure really was. I don't know what J.C. Harrington was seeing. I've read his notes from that period, his report, and I don't know what he's seeing. And a lot of archaeologists privately will say to you, but not publicly, yeah, it's not the fort. It it couldn't be you wouldn't get 104 men into fort rally which is this little peculiar little sconce have you ever like ambushed one of the guided tours there like this is all a lie everyone leave disperse well actually you know joking aside it very nearly i try and be diplomatic because they're selling my book there so i you know guys i gotta

Starting point is 01:09:45 be you know i've got to be nice about this so but no actually it's kind of 72 yeah it's kind of funny because i had some british friends come over in september and i took them there to see it because they wanted to see this connection with billyford so i took them there and i'm talking to them and i'm saying this is not fort rally and this is why it's not Fort Raleigh. And I gave them the story that I've just given you guys. And behind me is the National Park Service ranger talking to about 30 people about the fort. And I can hear them in the background.

Starting point is 01:10:18 And I'm talking quietly about this. And then before I know it, there's like several people have wandered away from the national park service and they're coming and they're stood within earshot of what i'm talking about and so i kind of stopped thinking oh wait maybe we're in the way of them and they were like no no no carry on it's really interesting what you've got to say so yeah there's probably several people that now know it's in america that now know it's not Fort Raleigh other than the archaeologists. Now there's a few more listening to this. Did they have that on the History Channel thing?

Starting point is 01:10:50 Did they talk about that? No, no, they don't. I mean. Did they ask you about it, though, on camera and not put it in? They did. But no, it's not going to, you know, say privately. A lot of archaeologists probably won't go on record as saying it's not that. And once upon a time, it was the Fort Raleigh.

Starting point is 01:11:11 Now it's kind of labeled as a recreation of what it might have been, but it's not. They would have built a wooden palisade. You know, the material, they would have built their fort out, a defendable fort, a fort you could defend, right? You'd build it out of the trees. You'd have built a wooden palisade. Think your Wild West soldiers, you know,

Starting point is 01:11:31 what did they build their forts out of? Trees. Yeah. It's defendable. You know, it's defensible. How much confrontation or even like cancellation of your thoughts have you run into among the i won't even say archaeology community like the historian community of this time period okay um i think amongst the archaeologists i know i think they i've not really met too much resistance because I think privately they also know they also realize it's not

Starting point is 01:12:06 Fort Raleigh, but again, there's a bit of politics at play so they don't publicly come out with it because such a problem it would be very easy to I mean You know, come on guys in the land of conspiracy theories, you know You've only got to say something that doesn't conform and everyone thinks you're crazy. That's right. So But here's my punch line for you. We found where that fault probably was. We a few of us found where that fault probably was. We found the right kind of outline.

Starting point is 01:12:39 We found the right kind of anomalies. We put a ground penetrating radar over what looked like the ditch that would have been associated with it we found an anomaly at three to four feet deep and uh the governing body uh the control permits for digging or archaeology on national park service land would not give us the permit to dig it and find out did they give you a reason oh they they said oh no we need a full report and blah blah blah and we said well we can't give you a reason? Oh, they said, oh, no, we need a full report and blah, blah, blah. And we said, well, we can't give you a full report until we investigate the anomaly. It's that chicken and egg thing.

Starting point is 01:13:11 It's just going around in circles, which came first, you know. So we can't give them the report because we need to investigate the anomaly. But they won't let us investigate the anomaly because they say we need the full report. Did you discuss this publicly? I haven't gone public with it because, you know, yeah, I know, right, guys? You know, it's a frustration. You know, pardon me, again, if I was a conspiracy theorist, and I really am not, but I would kind of almost feel that the National

Starting point is 01:13:42 Park Service probably realizes something there that needs investigating but again politically it would be an awful lot of egg on their face if for the last 70 years they've been showing people the wrong form yeah i don't the the lane you're looking at here with just this general idea of the lost colony of 1587 i i don't it doesn't strike me as conspiracy it's more just like fact of oh this town in england may have been here first and set up a few people and we're going to get to obviously what could have happened here but it's it's very like people fight over things for example the pyramids because there's so many potential possibilities there that even get to the crazy yeah i know history channel tried to put some words in your mouth there with some things

Starting point is 01:14:30 but escaping some of that this is this is it's just a really interesting historical story i don't i don't see why things like that are i mean i guess i can guess why they are but i think it's very stupid that things like that could be treated by mainstream people as political points off for thinking differently. But it's sad to me that you have to use phrases like, well, that privately they think that this is what happened, but they're not going to say that publicly. It is that public sort of thing. I mean, on one last point on this whole thing about this fort, right? It's a wooden palisade, okay? Now, if it was the mound that you see there today, this Fort Raleigh, okay,

Starting point is 01:15:15 because all it is is a grassy mound, you know, sort of ring, you know, just an outline of a mound, okay? Then in 1587, and I know we're're jumping forward but this is the last note on the on the fort rally thing in 1587 when john white comes back now bear in mind he was there in 1585 with a military colony he produced that map that you've just shown the virginia powers map when he comes back in 1587 with the civilian colony the first thing he's doing is looking to find Fort Raleigh, you know, because he knew it was there in 1585, and that would be a safe place to stick the civilians and let them live there while they're building their houses and just checking

Starting point is 01:15:56 everything over. And he's expecting, of course, that the military colony might be there. These are his actual words as He's wandering around the island. He goes up to where he knew the fort was. Okay. And he says, we found the fort raised down. Raised down? Raised down. Raised as in, if you think R-A or Z, if you guys say E-D, raised, if something is raised what is it it's burnt to the ground it's leveled it's it's gone now if it was a grass bank would it be raised down or would it be raised down if it was a wooden palisade i'd say the palisade it's been it's a palisade it's been burnt to the ground by the native american indians ultimately and by the way i don't know if i asked you on camera

Starting point is 01:16:44 to define palisade for people out there. I know what it is because I have listened to it. Sure. Palisade is a wooden fort. So if I say to people, think your kind of Wild West cavalry forts, et cetera, of your Westerns, that's essentially a palisade. It's a wooden fort. It would have been defensible.

Starting point is 01:17:02 You would have been able to protect yourselves being in that fort. Essentially a wooden castle, if you want to call it that. Okay. So what document was that again where it said that? Well, that's actually from the Richard Hacklett books. That's actually transcribed word for word from the Hacklett principal navigations books that were written in 1589 and 1600.

Starting point is 01:17:25 That's verbatim from those books. Okay. He finds the fort raised down. So bottom line, there's significant evidence to point out that Fort Raleigh was really somewhere else. And you think you may have found where that is, but you can't say because you weren't allowed to investigate it. Yeah. Interesting. So we had left off 1586.

Starting point is 01:17:45 Right. We do need to go there. What's his last name again? So Sir Francis Drake has relieved the colony in, you know, he's turned up and he's taken the colony, you know, back to England. Now, meanwhile, of course, you have to understand that Grenville is on his way back to England thinking, of course, you have to understand that Grenville is on his way back to England, thinking, you know, because you're only going to get there once a year, you know,

Starting point is 01:18:10 because you sail in the spring when the weather's good and you come back before the storms of the autumn. Okay. So Grenville sails back at the end of August 1585. He's left the military colony there. He's gone home. I need to get them more supplies well of course he's not going to get back to england until october time so it's the middle of winter he's going to sail again in the spring of 1586 and come back with supplies for that

Starting point is 01:18:38 colon that military colony how much like how big a boat would he be taking that time? What specific types of supplies and how much weight could he bring? These ships actually of the day were pretty extraordinary things. They were incredibly mobile. They sat very high in the water. But they would typically be 100, 200 tons in weight, just wooden sailing ships. But you could hold quite a bit in those holds. I mean, the three ships that brought over the lost colony, what became the lost colony, three crews, 120 men, women, and children.

Starting point is 01:19:18 Total. Yeah. Some livestock and some, you know, their goods and stuff that they would have bought with them, food and all the rest of it. And how long would a journey like that take? Very slightly, but the average is about 54 days. So you're talking, what are we talking here, seven to eight weeks? Wow.

Starting point is 01:19:37 Yeah. And do we have records of them, of people dying on the trip over or? We have one record of one of the civilians being killed by the native american indians in on the lost colony in 1587 okay so that's yeah but in terms of dying on the way it's possible but we don't actually have a record of um the civilians dying on the way over we have a We have two names missing in the list, which doesn't make sense that they may well have died and it's not been recorded.

Starting point is 01:20:12 And we do know that obviously the sailing was pretty dangerous and we know from some of the voyages that some of the sailors were killed or they died of sickness, essentially, you know, drinking poor, bad water, etc., etc. I would like, actually, at this point, before we get into 1586, to just talk about Grenville's return voyage to England, 1585. Please.

Starting point is 01:20:36 Because it's the one part of the story that has just been completely missed for its significance. Not so much significance for the lost colony but significance actually for the town of biddeford and for england and what actually took place on his way back he gets to bermuda um and you know we're at the time now where if there's a spanish ship you would fight with a spanish ship and try and take the Spanish ship, you know, because it's a prize and it's paid for your trip. Okay. Because, you know, there's no like income tax being used to fund the trips.

Starting point is 01:21:14 You're funding the trips yourself, you know. Oh, even if you're getting a charter from the queen, you're self-funding? She couldn't throw a couple of bones from the throne? Well, she did sort of provide a couple of ships which was her cut of course um but no there wasn't like limited supply of money it was basically your money because it was your investment because if there was gold and you bought all that gold back it was basically you'd give the queen her cut and the rest was yours okay okay so fascinating i'm sure you're aware of pirates of the caribbean you didn't know we

Starting point is 01:21:48 were gonna get in you didn't know we were gonna get into hollywood here did you i'm gonna read you something what happened with grenville um it gets to bermuda and there's a spanish ship there it turns out it's a treasure ship it's the santa Santa Maria de San Vincenzi. Jack Sparrow running it? Gets better. Gets better. I don't like that look. Okay, gets better. It gets even better.

Starting point is 01:22:14 We know what happened because there's this really incredibly unfortunate Spanish guy called Enrique Lopez. He's in the Caribbean doing business or something weird, you know, as a Spaniard. And he thumbs a lift back on, you know, to get back to Spain. And the ship he thumbs a lift on, basically, is the Santa Maria de San Vincenzi that gets taken or captured by Grenville at Bermuda, off the coast of Bermuda.

Starting point is 01:22:43 With me so far? So we have an eyewitness account. because this Spaniard gets back to Spain and has to explain what happened to the treasure ship. Los Ciento. It's gone. Los Ciento, yeah, absolutely. Well, definitely a bit of Bagnolsi, I can tell you. So I've got to read a little.

Starting point is 01:23:00 If I may, a little bit of a fascination Pirates of the Caribbean style here. You might like this. Or you can cut it out, of course, guys. may, a little bit of a fascination, Pirates of the Caribbean style here. You might like this. Or you can cut it out, of course, guys. No, we'll keep it. Let's go. So this is what he wrote. Whereupon the ship, meaning Grenville's ship, opened fire and bore down on us, firing her guns with the intention of disabling our sails or disabling the ship.

Starting point is 01:23:22 And it so badly cut up their rigging that we were disabled meaning that you know it shot out the rigging so you've seen all this on the films guys come on they say that as the English general now he's talking about Richard Grenville here the English general and his men boarded he Richard Grenville ordered the master and the rest on board to hand over all the gold and silver and other things they had in the vessel promising that he would not do them any bodily harm if they did so the passengers gave up the keys to their boxes and he unlocked some and broke open others and removed lots of gold and silver and pearls which were in them he also took 200 boxes of sugar they're about 25 pound a box and 7 000 hides and a thousand hundred weight which is half a ton of ginger and other

Starting point is 01:24:14 merchandise to a total value of 160 000 ducats which i mean the value sounds insane so to money value today i'll give it to you in Americanese. What he took off that ship with today's money is $14 million. Tough day. Yeah, and extraordinary. There are other things about this incredible moment because… And Bermuda had been discovered by the Spanish. Is that what you're getting at?

Starting point is 01:24:43 Yeah. So they've been there. Yeah, everyone knew where Bermuda had been discovered by the Spanish? Is that what you're getting at? So they've been there. Yeah, everyone knew where Bermuda was, yeah. The crazy thing is the pilot of the Santa Maria de San Vincenzi was Portuguese. Now, Portuguese pilots at the day were the best pilots you could get for your ship. Why? Because they knew the Atlantic Ocean intimately well. They were superb navigators.

Starting point is 01:25:06 Okay. They were some of the first to go around the world, all that kind of thing. They actually called the Atlantic Ocean the Bay of Portugal. That was kind of a ninjoke amongst the Portuguese pilots. Oh, okay. All right. Okay. So, of course, he's got himself a Portuguese pilot now. So he takes, you know, captures Pedro Diaz,

Starting point is 01:25:29 takes him back to England to force him to be his pilot on future journeys, and he does. So he pilots Grenville's resupply voyage in 1586. But what's crazy is he talks about being forced to work on Grenville's new house on the quay, which he's building with the money he's made from that ship. And his story alone is crazy because he goes back in 1586 as the pilot. And then in 1588, he sails again to the lost colony.

Starting point is 01:26:01 The ships get set upon in the Bay of Biscay. He pleads with the french ship to take him off of the english they do so and think oh we've got ourselves a portuguese pilot he then escapes from the french and finally arrives in havana cuba in the hands of the spanish four years later it's kind of like this this is straight up Pirates of the Caribbean. This is what I love about this story. You know, it's just so much more things going on that nobody knows about. So, crazy thing.

Starting point is 01:26:34 Richard Grenville gets back to Biddeford, and there we have that image down there. It's the house he built on the quayside. Let's toss this baby up on the screen. that's in that's in bitterford it was you see the picture yeah that looks a lot let's toss that up it's the one on the bottom left so i can take you through those briefly as i say this this is all consequence of this uh this ship he catches. That looks a lot like just rough shot quickly, like the like the boathouses on the Schuylkill River right outside Philly past the art museum. Very similar. Wow. Architecture design.

Starting point is 01:27:15 All right. Unless he's pulling it up right now so people will be able to see it. OK. Bottom left right there. Right. So let me take you through what you've got here. First things first, top left, although it's modern and it's now apartments, we got in there and we're investigating that

Starting point is 01:27:31 building. It's the remains of an ancient 13th century house, which was where the Grenballs originally lived in Biddeford. And we know this because although you can't see too clearly, the image that's at top center contains a coat of arms that's linked to the gremble family okay so i tried to save that building as a museum and what have you but we couldn't raise the money to save it so it's now apartments anyhow gremble's got back to bedford with his ship with all the gold on it and what he builds is what you see on the bottom left hand corner there that six gabled building is gremble's manor house that he built on the quayside with the slate the spanish slaves

Starting point is 01:28:12 that he captured yeah oh because he made the guys he captured slaves too wasn't enough to take all because they were well they were prisoners of war i mean that's how they were viewed they were slaves but it was a prisoner of war thing. I mean, the Spanish did the same thing. Any Brits they captured, they incarcerated them as galley slaves, you know, to row ships, basically. So it was, you know. Like forever?

Starting point is 01:28:36 Basically until they died or were set free, yeah, absolutely. Oh, my God. God, we live in such a good era. The problem you've now got, look at the top right. You'll see guys stood there looking very smug and just a load of demolition rubble. 1937, they pulled down what was left of the Grenville Manor House. It's no longer there. Most astonishing, heartbreaking thing I've ever come across.

Starting point is 01:29:03 Why did they do that? That's before the war. No excuse. Who knows? I would have started a war if I've ever come across. Why did they do that? That's before the war. No excuse. Who knows? I would have started a war if I'd have been there. But, yeah, so we lost that building. Is there similar architecture still existing in Biddeford? No.

Starting point is 01:29:18 No. There are, well, tell a lie. There are some fragments of things, but it's very, very light. Is it for real? Is it not? We don't honestly know. There really is not a lot there. And the last thing was the cannons that you saw at the end there.

Starting point is 01:29:34 Yeah. There was some debate as to whether those cannons, they're labeled as Spanish Armada cannons. But I have, you know, the Spanish Royal Armory think that they're earlier. So were they from the Santa Maria di Vincenzi? We really don't know. Could have been. So the Brits were pirates.

Starting point is 01:29:54 We were pirates. Yeah, absolutely. God damn. You know, guys, you know, we do anything for tea. Hilarious. Can we pull up, hit the home button, Alessi? Hit the home button and then hit that. Can we pull up images of Biddeford?

Starting point is 01:30:08 I just want to get an idea. Let's just look on Google what it shows us. One of the best places in the world to go on New Year's Eve. Biddeford. Really? Yeah, B-I-D-D-E-F-O-R-D. It's a single D. The one in Maine is two Ds, and that was actually also founded by someone from…

Starting point is 01:30:23 All right, hit images. So there we go. we go okay hit yeah hit that one so there you are bitterford quayside and why did you say it was good for new year's sorry we have a very very big fancy dress party in in bitterford on new year's eve yeah okay you got the crier out in front reading you off again? Well, let me put it this way. About 20 years ago, I can't remember. I think it was the Times newspaper held a poll of the 10 best places to celebrate New Year's Eve in the world. In the world. In the world. And we came seventh between Rio de Janeiro and Rome.

Starting point is 01:31:00 Holy shit, man. That's some… Pretty crazy. Yeah, and I'll bet your population is like a quarter or less. Well, a lot less than Rio. Yeah, man. That's some – Pretty crazy. Yeah, and I'll bet your population is like a quarter or – well, a lot less than real. Yeah, absolutely. It's actually a very, very poor town. It's very deprived. About 20% of the people live there below the poverty line.

Starting point is 01:31:15 It looks beautiful. Which is why it frustrates me a bit because it's a beautiful part of the world. It's on the west coast, southern west coast. Yeah. and you know the west coast southern west coast uh yeah down if you head down the peninsula that sticks out from england in the southwest um you know it's on the north coast there um what's really uh yeah we'll pull up a map on the screen so people can see it so there we are so if you zoom out you'll see where it is so there it is keep zooming out so you're on like and then you're more familiar now where you are in the map of england so this is what like five hours from london uh yeah actually no um you could do it in

Starting point is 01:31:51 about five hours i think these days um what's really extraordinary to think is that um after jamestown got settled biddeford became the principal port for all the tobacco that was being produced in Virginia. Got shipped back to England, and most of it went into Biddeford. Why Biddeford? Because it was the convenient port. It was close at hand. Hold on a second. Can you zoom back in on that, Alessi, on where Biddeford is?

Starting point is 01:32:18 But it's technically inland. Like, why wouldn't it – zoom in more, if you don't mind. Like, why wouldn't you use Westward Hole or or something or is that still Biddeford there? No, Westward Ho is a sand – it's just a sandy beach. You need a deep water port. The river level at Biddeford has the second highest tide after the Bay of Fundy. But what about the ocean? Can it beat the ocean?

Starting point is 01:32:46 It's silted up quite a bit now from what it was it used to be wider and deeper that port yeah because i always wonder about this like for example why in america i really should look this stuff up but like a major port we had on the south jersey side is philadelphia that makes sense because it's it's a big city right like it's a huge city as opposed to making the port like cape may because it's much smaller but this seems like it's not like that big a place and i guess the other places are just like very rural and there's not much going on there yeah i mean the population today is 15 000 the population in the time of the lost colony would have been probably been around 3 000 yeah see that's not that much like most extraordinary thing though that it's so much tobacco was going back into biddeford and the ships weren't going over empty they were taking

Starting point is 01:33:36 all the mercantile stuff that the colonists in america in jamestown and so on and so on needed you know that they couldn't get there. They were taking over linen and all sorts of things and what have you. So perversely, Biddeford played a major, major part, not only in trying to settle this first colony, the lost colony, but at a later date with the tobacco trade, we played a major part in actually securing America as a nation by bringing it all the merchandise that it actually needed for the colonists to be able to survive and settle.

Starting point is 01:34:13 And we're at this point, like, because we're talking about this initial potential colony and they didn't even know they couldn't even grow proper crops. The guys wanted to leave did they have any idea in okay maybe not 1585 but by 1590 or something was there an idea back in england that whoa there's there's a huge tobacco and even like cotton opportunity in america or was it still a guess right they were aware of tobacco um because they had just been sort of discovered pretty much then they found the spanish were using it and of course the native american indians were smoking tobacco a very strong kind of tobacco but it was it was noted um so but it wasn't really until you know after jamestown was firmly established and they found that tobacco grew much better in and around Chesapeake Bay That it really became a major major

Starting point is 01:35:09 Export for the colony outside of smoking. Was there any good use for tobacco? No, I was gonna say that's like it was a fashion Okay, it was literally a fashion and when it was first bought back to england it was a very expensive fashion um if you saw some of the clay pipes the very early clay pipes from when tobacco first came back to england um they were about three inches long and the bowl that you put your tobacco in would barely hold much not much more than a thumbnail because it was so expensive. Yeah. And then as it became more and more, got imported and more and more available, the bowls got bigger, the pipes got bigger, and it got cheaper. Was there anywhere in the Eastern world where they were previously growing that? Not that I'm aware of, although I must admit it's not something I would know.

Starting point is 01:35:59 Like not in the Middle East or anything? It's not something I would know, to be honest with you. I don't think so. I think there's various species of tobacco leaf but the the tobacco leaf that was cultivated here was kind of seen as the as the major player um excuse me the sad thing about biddeford was that um when we talk about the the price of tea and you guys throwing it in the harbor as we did a minute ago that's right um it wasn't't really England that suffered from that loss. It was Biddeford because you stopped exporting all your tobacco back to Biddeford

Starting point is 01:36:31 and literally overnight Biddeford collapsed as a port. Sorry, pal. So you owe us, guys. You owe us big. There were only 3,000 of you. It's a write-off cost. I'm sorry. Guys, guys, guys, guys. It guys guys you know we we had this guy called

Starting point is 01:36:47 uh we had this guy called strachan carnegie who was mayor of bidford in 1910 and his name his nephew was andrew carnegie but andrew carnegie gave andrew carnegie gave bidford its library wasn't he scottish though yeah originally and then he went to America and then got involved in something called but Biddeford's not in Scotland no but his uncle was mayor of Biddeford and he persuaded Andrew Carnegie to give us a new library now this is crazy until I talked to you I didn't even know what Biddeford was never heard of it in my life crazy little town because you go there it's very sleepy backwater it's kind of tree it's kind of quaint you know it's got some really lovely little places there but it's kind of like guys you know so i digress that's the story of bitterford that's great we can we can but it's kind of like trying to give people a feel for what where it all started what really was kicking off

Starting point is 01:37:39 with the lost colony it was all focused around around bitterford really that's really where most of it actually you know the story took place. And we have further references as we go forward. So 1586, we're now, Grenville is now back in England. He knows he needs to resupply the colony. So on 16th of April, he set sail with some supplies and more people, more military people. And then something crazy happens.

Starting point is 01:38:05 Right at the entrance to the estuary where Biddeford sits, there's a very large sandbar still there today. It still causes problems for ships. And the town clerk of the neighbouring town of Barnstable quotes, and I got this quote from the 16th of April, Sir Richard Grenville sailed over the bar with his flyboat, this is his ship, and frigate, but for want of sufficient water on the bar being near upon Neap,

Starting point is 01:38:31 he left his ship, meaning the ship got stranded on the sandbar. And so his ship got stranded on the sandbar because he was laden down, I guess, and miscalculated the sandbar. They couldn't just like wait for the tide to come in well that's what he had to do but he waited nearly two weeks so here's a crazy thing this is this is a this is really what if you know if only kind of thing drake has taken the men the military colony off. Grenville is on his way back, but gets stranded on the sandbar and he's stuck there two weeks.

Starting point is 01:39:10 Okay. When Grenville gets back to Roanoke, he arrives. Sorry. He arrives at Roanoke two weeks after Drake left. So what we're saying here, if he hadn't have got stuck on the sandbar, he might well have arrived when Drake was there or when the military colony was still on the island.

Starting point is 01:39:37 Because Drake left and then Grenville arrived two weeks later. But Grenville was stranded in Biddeford on the bar for two weeks. If it had sailed when he originally planned and hadn't landed, he got stuck on the standby. He would have probably been there in time. To stop them from getting on with Drake. Yeah, and he would have had supplies, and then they would have stayed. Okay, but they didn't.

Starting point is 01:40:00 They didn't because he didn't arrive. You know, he wasn't there. He arrived two weeks after drake left with the military colony and no one's left and he doesn't know that drake got them he doesn't know um you know isn't that a crazy story it's crazy but now i'm trying to put it all together again he arrives though with the 140 people or so no no no he's arrived with a supply that's more supplies for the military colony we're not yeah um really really interesting point here um that uh two things occur a gremble meets obviously

Starting point is 01:40:35 with manteo and and the native american indians and finds out that drake has just left with his colony. Because they came back. So they brought the Manteo, is that how you say it? No, Manteo and one cheese came back to England with Amardus and Barlow in 1584, returned in 1585 with Grenville. They are now back in, staying there in the Outer Banks. And, of course, because Manteo speaks perfect English by now, he's telling Grenville, this guy called Francis Drake came along and took them all away two weeks ago. Okay, so they know that that happened.

Starting point is 01:41:11 So they know that that happened. He then talks about they found an Englishman and an Indian who had been hanged, and they found three natives who tried to have a fight with Grenville. These weren't the friendly natives. These were some of the mainland natives that were kind of, you know. Are they still crow-toeing? Probably.

Starting point is 01:41:33 It looks like there were different factions at some point. Anyway, my point is that he captures one of them. He captures one of these Native American Indians. So we've now got a third Native American Indian that's in the possession of the English. And this is now in 1587. 1586. 1586, when Grenville has now returned and they're gone. Right.

Starting point is 01:41:51 So he's back on Roanoke Island. He finds out from Manteo that Drake has picked them all up. But while he's there, there's a skirmish with some more Native Americans, okay, from the mainland. It's a different faction, a different tribe. And they capture one of these Native Americans from this tribe. The other thing he does is he decides to leave 15 men with enough supplies for a year to hold America while he goes back. To hold the whole thing. To hold the whole country.

Starting point is 01:42:28 So there you go. We trust the entire United States of America to 15 guys. I thought you guys were bright. You know, I was giving you too much credit. Bright or brave. I mean, I prefer the term ambitious. I mean, come on, guys. You know, the British Isles are as a land area, or the same land area

Starting point is 01:42:48 as the state of Virginia and North Carolina combined. And yet we went on to rule a third of the world. Fair enough. You can't make up stuff like that. You did lose it, but still. Well, we know how we ruled the world. We just turned up with a flag. No one else had a flag. We just stuck a flag in India and like, oh, God,

Starting point is 01:43:04 they've got a flag. They must own us. That is us that is it so we did it crazy all right so anyway so he's left 15 men and of course he's come back with one Native American from his 1586 kicking and screaming this guy's captured yep so guess what that Native American uh becomes anglicized just like one Chiefs and Manio. We don't know his name but we do know he was christened in St. Mary's

Starting point is 01:43:31 parish church in Biddeford. All right, let's pull this up. So what is, how did you get that record right there? It's in our parish records

Starting point is 01:43:39 in Biddeford. It's actually, what's his name listed as? Rorley. I'll show you. I'll walk you through this when we've got it up there. His name's Rorley. Rorley.

Starting point is 01:43:52 Yeah, he's named after Sir Walter Raleigh. Okay. Oh, okay. Got it, got it. So, see, there we go. I had it off. Hold on. I'll go back.

Starting point is 01:43:59 Hit this. Okay, so this is the document right here. Right. So, this is his Native American that Grembles brought back in 1586. And you'll see in 1588, you'll see Raleigh written there. The entry says, Raleigh, a Winganditoan. I can tell you about the Winganditoan thing in a minute. Richard, the son of Baptist Tooker and Catherine, the daughter of William Berry,

Starting point is 01:44:20 all were christened this 27th day of March. So this is the first American to be basically christened in England. But in 1589, on the 2nd of April, he dies. Quick. So that Native American Indian is buried in our parish church in Biddeford. How old was he when he got Christian? We don't know. Now, there is a problem because we don't know where he's buried in the church. Can't we just exhume it?

Starting point is 01:44:54 We don't know where he is. But it's like a church. It's not like a country. You could dig up the whole churchyard if you want. Yeah, can't we do that? Well, you could, but when the plague hit and all that in the 1660s, there's probably a lot of plague burials in the churchyard if you want. Yeah, can't we do that? Well, you could, but, you know, when the plague hit and all that in the 1660s, there's probably a lot of plague burials in the churchyard. I mean, you guys are welcome to do it.

Starting point is 01:45:11 I mean, I'll stand back and watch, you know. All right, really dumb question. That's still contagious 500 years later? Oh, yeah. Really? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That never goes away? If they find plague victims in England, you know, they're suited and booted

Starting point is 01:45:27 and like they're dealing with radiation. Really? Oh, yeah, very serious. So that bacteria, wow. Yeah, that bacteria will thrive. It will still live. So maybe he died of plague? Well, we think more likely influenza because, very sadly,

Starting point is 01:45:42 it also killed Grenville's youngest daughter rebecca um you know she's in the records but i thought you'd be interested in that because this is what happened to the native american indian that gremble brings back in 1586 he's christened in saint mary's church which still standing thankfully and he's he dies and he's buried in that church it won't take long to tell you Neutral's ingredients. Vodka, soda, natural flavours. So, what should we talk about? No sugar added. Neutral.

Starting point is 01:46:29 Refreshingly simple. ... somewhere, but we don't know where. I'm just impressed you guys can read this shit. I have no idea what that's... I have horrible handwriting. Let's just make that clear. This makes me feel good. We're just making it up really you know yeah i mean i could that's what i'm saying maybe this guy just like invented a powerpoint and

Starting point is 01:46:49 brought it up to jersey i don't know so um uh what i what i want you to point out here by the way you see it says raleigh a wing ganditoan okay and you'll notice the two entries say rally spelt one way and then raleigh spelt another way on his death. So you see the two different spellings. Well, this is because at this time you wrote down how something sounded. So you wrote phonetically. So that's why the spellings can vary because it's how someone interprets what the word actually is. So someone with a London version of the written so someone with a london version of the accent and someone with a scottish version of the accent could say the same word and

Starting point is 01:47:31 it sounds a little different so they just write what they hear absolutely right it would be completely different okay so wingand towing i have to tell you wingand towing's a little bit of light relief here um thomas harriet was part of the 1585 voyage okay now he was a mathematician he was kind of a science man a philosopher all sorts of things um and part of his job was to uh translate the croatoan language try and find you know work out how they to speak Croatoan back to them and also translate their language. And one of the very first times that they speak with the Croatoans, they ask the Croatoans, what's the name of this place, Roanoke Island? And the reply is Winganditoa.

Starting point is 01:48:23 But Thomas Harriot later discovers, well, well no the island is called roanoke and winganditoa means you've got nice clothes so oh oh so they just totally messed up when they got it yeah the crow of town was looking at him saying you've got nice clothes guys you know he's like oh that's what it's called yeah that's what it's called. Yeah, that's what it's called. So a little bit of humor there. But the story of Raleigh, the Wingandertown, buried in Biddeford's Church, the first American buried on English soil. That's crazy. And we don't know anything else about him,

Starting point is 01:48:56 and we can't take up his body because we might die. Yeah. After COVID, we've got to have some people go down there, right? Let's suit up. Let's get some rubber gloves on. It's called a day. I got to look that up. I had no idea that that shit still lasts.

Starting point is 01:49:14 Like you can't even dig up a head to that either. That's scary. Okay. So where we are on the story here is that Grendel is two weeks behind. I know I'm kind of jumping around a bit, but there's all these consequences, which to me is why it's such a crazy story. You know, there's so much more to this story than has ever been really properly recorded. We now come to the interesting bit,

Starting point is 01:49:36 the lost colony. We finally get there, guys. Okay. Oh, here you go. Thank you. And this is where the whole argument's over. This is where the story really starts. Okay.

Starting point is 01:49:49 So first things first, you know, one of the big things that has been said to me is that the colonists were criminals. They were thieves, you know, because they set out, Raleigh set out to try and find 250 people to start the colony with. But he only got about 120. So they were rather naive. Thomas Harriot, the guy I've just mentioned, he writes this piece about the sort of people they want for the job, you know. So to give you a picture of who these colonists actually were, what they were. Millwrights, these, you know, sawyers, carpenters for buildings, blacksmiths.

Starting point is 01:50:28 What's a millwright? Millwrights, someone who would build a mill so that you could make flour, you could mill flour. Tilemakers, brickmakers, thatchers who built, you know, roofs, thatching roofs. Barbers who in those days were surgeons. Barbers were surgeons? That's what they originally were

Starting point is 01:50:45 yeah you know legend of sweeney todd and all that guys you know really glad that our barbers aren't surgeons yeah i've seen the haircuts guys you know i'm still recovering from one three and a half months that's like a that's it that's a take i have salons over barber shops for me i'm sorry like every time i don't havebershop, they fuck it up. See, I don't have to worry about it, guys. Yeah, you're good. Tailors, cooks, bakers, brewers, butchers, shoemakers. So the list goes on and on of all these trades that Thomas Harriot thinks we need to.

Starting point is 01:51:16 So it's kind of like a recruitment drive. drive you know they sat there like who do we know who is a good hunter or um you know who can make potash or soap or or who's a good tailor who's a good cook etc all these people is this in like the town newspaper they're putting this in or well it's more likely that uh when richard gremble went back to we know he went to london and and sat down with Walter Raleigh to go through this list with Thomas Harriot, and then they would have sat there with the other investors and said, okay, anyone got a good cook? Anyone got someone who's a good brickmaker? Anyone who's got someone who can sink a well and find water, et cetera?

Starting point is 01:52:04 I think, real fast, I think you might have touched this earlier. I just can't remember if it was off camera or on. So just quickly, what was Walter Raleigh's background again? Okay. So Walter Raleigh was one of Queen Elizabeth's privateers, a kind of inner circle, if you like. They were kind of official, unofficial pirates. Drake, Grenville, Raleigh, they were all in that privateer group.

Starting point is 01:52:34 So, yeah. Sorry, guys, you know, live as it happens, right? So, you know, but he was a favorite of queen elizabeth so he was able to wangle his way into getting all sorts of favors and what have you so he rose through the ranks very very quickly okay uh you know uh and that so that is his kind of background okay so he and grenville and these other guys you were saying are sitting around trying to figure out who can do what and they're trying they're basically like trying to make their oceans 11 to go to America. Oceans 11. Absolutely. And of course, you know, these are not going to be criminals. Think about

Starting point is 01:53:11 this. If you're going to spend your money, your money, not taxpayers money here, you know, it's not like it's not accountable. This is accountable because it's your money. You're going to spend your money setting up a colony, which you hope to make money from, and it's 4,000 miles away, and you're only going to get there once a year to find out how it's going. You're not going to send criminals or people you can't trust. You're going to send the best men you can lay your hands on for that job. So this is why they were not criminals. These were good honest people who almost certainly Worked for the people who were the investors to the colony. Well, how do we explain Australia then I

Starting point is 01:53:52 Mean that's far away. Didn't they send like a lot of criminals to Australia? They did they sent some my ancestors there because they stole that they stole a loaf of bread to feed the family and they sent Them to Australia and sent them Australia what I used to send them to Georgia But you guys got fed up with the price of tea and then we ended up sending them australia and australia is very grateful by the way so you know we got a lot of australian fans out there australian fans out there very very grateful you know none of them seem like criminals i just want to say that you guys seem like upstanding citizens i'm just going through history here but you're you believe that it's different in this case they really i guess because it's like earliest exploration, they want to make sure they actually have people who can set up civilization.

Starting point is 01:54:29 Yeah, I mean, you know, and the research, because we know the names of all the lost colonists. We know who went. We know their names. We've been able to identify some of them back where they lived in England and who they were connected to. So it's very, very obvious that the people who were putting money into this colony were the people choosing the people who went to represent them for their interest, represent their interest perhaps, but also to play their part in this colony to make sure it succeeded. So I want to make that very clear.

Starting point is 01:55:02 These people were not criminals. These were people that were considered to be professionals, if you like. Perfect case in point. I'm sure you're aware of Ananias Dare and Eleanor Dare and their daughter, Virginia Dare, first born American. Well, Ananias Dare was a brickmaker. So, you know, this is a thing. You know, it was people that they trusted. I'll come on to those guys in a minute.

Starting point is 01:55:28 So, anyway, the lost colony sails for Roanoke early in 1587. A couple of things happen. A bit of misadventure. They eat some poisonous fruit while they're in the Caribbean and it causes a few issues. They find what they think is water but it's not it's actually where oil is seeped into the water and so they've been drinking that and it talks about how they were burning their throat and their face because they wash their face in in petroleum basically

Starting point is 01:55:55 um so all this misadventure goes on you know absolutely but here's the point um they get to roanoke and simon fernando who's in charge of getting them to roanoke says i haven't got any time to get you to chesapeake bay so i'm going to leave you at roanoke where you were now i know that sounds slightly a weird thing why did he say that but here's the point they knew when they sailed in 1587 that they were supposed to have left those colonists not on Roanoke, but in Chesapeake Bay. Yes, right. Because they knew the Native American, you know, the military colony from two years earlier

Starting point is 01:56:33 had now got back to England and reported that Indians are friendly in Chesapeake Bay. There's deep water anchorage. There's plenty of room. There's some nice soil for crops. It's a little bit more, you know, better quality of life up there in terms of what's available to them to to make a go of it etc you have to ask the

Starting point is 01:56:51 question you know did when they set up jamestown in 1607 did they actually take all what was told you know that report and say well that's where we're meant to go if they knew that the lost colony was supposed to go down in 1587 that's why they went there in 1607 because it was still the best place to go um and we know that they were dumped on rowan oak island by the way which is this is another thing that people question you know how did they know they were supposed to be going to chesapeake bay well john white records and this is in black and White in the annals. Excuse me. We passed along the coast to the bay. We were supposed to go along the bay to Chesapeake,

Starting point is 01:57:33 where we intended to make our seat and fort, according to the charge given us among other directions in writing, under the hand of Sir Walter Raleigh. So, you know, Chesapeake Bay were intended to make our seats and fought. He's confirming that they were supposed to go to Chesapeake Bay. But you're saying they didn't? They got dumped at Roanoke because Simon Fernando said he didn't have time to take them to Chesapeake Bay.

Starting point is 01:58:02 Convenient. Think about it. Yeah, there was a bit of conspiracy did simon fernando was he acting for spain as a bit of a spy and dumping these people on roanoke but i don't know i'm not sure about that i really am not and what months would that be alleged to have happened uh this happened in august august 87 so it is quite late you know they did arrive quite late there's no doubt about that so he didn't have a lot of time to get back to England but we know that the return vote some of the return voyage is left at the end of

Starting point is 01:58:33 August so he certainly did have time to probably get to Chesapeake Bay and pick up the Gulf Stream back to England okay so back to Roanoke though. This is where we get into the evidence of whether or not they were there and whatever. Right. What – outside of some of the – your equivalent of FOIA over in the UK, what evidence on the ground says that they stopped in Roanoke and dropped off many of these people to set up a colony. Because it's in the writings of Hackler, his principal navigations. What is in there is John White's own transcript of arriving on Roanoke, finding- In 1587. In 1587.

Starting point is 01:59:21 Bear in mind, he's been there two years previous. So again, he's expecting the fort. He finds the fort raised down. Remember I was saying that, that he finds it raised down. He talks about them finding the houses were still there, so they repair the houses and they set up camp again. They get themselves organized. He talks about that.

Starting point is 01:59:41 He also records the birth of his granddaughter, Virginia Dare, who becomes the firstborn American, and her birthday was 18th of August, 1587. So he, you know, it's just John White recording all of this. This is his deposition, if you like. This is his story. And like you said, we have the name of every passenger. We have the name of every passenger. What's the mix of, like, men and women and children well uh very lopsided uh there were 85 men um now you have to say that you have to look at that and say well some of those were military men

Starting point is 02:00:16 some of those were say it would have been sailors and then you've got the others who might have brought their families with them. Virginia Dare was not the only child. Certainly the firstborn, but not the only child. There were other children. How old they were, we don't know. They might have been anywhere between about five and 15. Okay.

Starting point is 02:00:42 So there were several others. So, yeah, but I have the marriage record of Ananias there with Eleanor White. We know that they were married in London on the 24th of June, 1583. So and then say they sail for, to be part of that colony with Eleanor's father, John White. uh you know to be part of that colony with uh Eleanor's father John White um so and John White is at the center of the story because he's the one who after this voyage in and around the area of arriving August 1587 he goes back to England to go get supply. Absolutely right. Yeah, absolutely right. We don't know much about John White either. We think he was probably Cornish. He trained as a painter in London. We know he got married to Thomasine Cooper on 30th of June, 1566. His son Thomas was christened 1567. Daughter Eleanor in 1568.

Starting point is 02:01:47 His son dies the same year. So that just leaves him with a daughter. So his only child, only surviving child, is his daughter Eleanor, who he last sees alive in 1587. And I don't know if you want this record. Sure, please. That record but that record is the record of the birth

Starting point is 02:02:07 of Eleanor and what day was she born again? I've got it on there somewhere, sorry I'll need to we're going back and forth with the HDMI today, I love it I do apologize, no no it's good that way we can get it up so the people at home

Starting point is 02:02:22 can follow, alright so thanks everyone, sorry we were having trouble getting that up for a second so here we go we have this is the record of eleanor being born on may 9th 1568 is that right yeah it's the uh third line down there um it says uh the ninth day of May christened Eleanor the daughter of John White. And if you look at the faint writing on the right hand side, the word painter confirming that that is the John White and that is the birth record of Eleanor. Is this also in your church? No, this is in the registers in London where they lived. Okay. Wow. Hey guys, if you haven't already, please make sure you go subscribe to our other channels here

Starting point is 02:03:11 on YouTube to support the show. We are posting different daily content on Julian Dory clips, Best of JDP and Julian Dory daily every day, including mid form and short form clips. So if you haven't already subscribed to those, please go subscribe by hitting the links in my description below. Thank you. All right. So how long after that does white decide to go back? So he, we established this,

Starting point is 02:03:35 his daughter and everything. She's there. She's a part of the people who they allegedly left at Roanoke, but then at Roanoke, but then he decides to go back to England. And like, who does he take with him when he does that? Okay.

Starting point is 02:03:46 He decides he's going to go back alone, or they persuade him that he's going back alone because, and I can see the logic. If you think about this, he was set up to be the governor, the leader of the colony. Is anyone back in England going to believe one of the colonists if they turn up and say, we can't build a colony there because there's no materials, there's no fields, there's no nothing, it's a sandbank.

Starting point is 02:04:10 Because you've got to bear in mind that these people were employees, if you like, of the landowners, the landed gentry. You know, they're not going to be believed if they come back with this story. They're going to think, you know, the landed gentry, their bosses are going to think, ah, they're just ducking out of this and what have you. So they persuade John White to go back to represent them and say, you know, we need more supplies, etc., etc., etc.

Starting point is 02:04:41 So, you know, they're pretty well set where they are, but they realize that, they're going you know they can't survive that long where they are because it's just not uh it's not the land of milk and honey that it was originally portrayed to be and of course we also have to bear in mind that grenville's 15 men by this way by this time by the way also disappeared. When they arrive in 1587, expecting to find Grenville's 15 men, they're not there either. He does find out from these are the 15 men that Grenville left to hold all of America. Yes, but they were the – am I getting this mixed up?

Starting point is 02:05:19 They were the ones who went back with Sir Francis Drake. No. Clarification. It's a complicated story yes 1586 drake arrives and removes the military colony they take a lift back grenville arrives two weeks later in 1586 finds they've gone leaves 15 men to hold the whole of america okay when john white arrives with the colony in 1587 gremble's 15 men have disappeared so he asks uh manteo what happened to gremble's men and manteo gives him this story about them being set upon by uh indians from the mainland um and they got in a boat and rowed off and vanished,

Starting point is 02:06:05 and no one knows where they went either. So at this point, you know, we've already lost. We've got 104 men come back to England. We've got 15 men already lost on the Outer Banks. Then the colony turns up with John White, and, you know, after three weeks he decides to sail back to England because they need more supplies, and that was the last time anyone saw 120 colonists alive so we're up to about 135 people

Starting point is 02:06:33 missing at this point um so uh yeah so 1587 he comes back to england what like octoberish something yeah about that uh it's quite a extraordinary story, and it does define why I think Simon Fernando, the pilot, that he blames for not leaving them at Chesapeake Bay like he was commanded to, was just a bad sailor because their journey back is pretty horrendous. They don't land in England. they land in ireland and then he has to get another ship back to england and some of the men have died of sickness on board so john white's return voyage is pretty horrendous the fact that he got back alive is is something of a miracle in itself um and he wrote about this that's how he wrote all about this. That's how we know about it. He wrote all about this. This is all in the Hakluyt writings. So he gets back to England, meets up with Grenville and Raleigh,

Starting point is 02:07:30 and it's not recorded what was said, but I can imagine it was probably an entertaining conversation while you're back here. I thought we left you over there kind of thing. But he does persuade them that they need more supplies. You'd have to argue that Grenville probably agreed with him because he'd already tried to supply the military colony. So he knew the terrain.

Starting point is 02:07:52 He knew that there was not a lot there. So in 1588, there is an attempt to resupply the Plancers Colony, what became the Lost Colony. Okay. Okay. the uh the plants was calling that what became the lost colony okay okay um we have an extraordinary record of this uh attempt in that um richard grenville has at biddeford five ships fully laden with supplies including another 15 potential colonists, 11 men and four women, to add to the colony. Okay, this is all documented. And they're about to sail, and then something happens which changes the course of history.

Starting point is 02:08:38 The Spanish Armada arrives. 1588, the Spanish Armada arrives. Where? It's sailing up the English Channel to attack England once and for all. Wait, to go to war back in Europe you're talking? To go to war with England, you know, actually try and take England basically. So Elizabeth says we need every able-bodied man, every able-bodied ship, every ship capable of a good fight quote

Starting point is 02:09:06 unquote um to take on the spanish armada and save the nation so grenville has no choice but the five ships that he's got left a bit of a key ready to go back to roanoke can't go back to roanoke because three of them are big ships they They're capable of good fight. So he has to take them to meet up with the English fleet to try and defeat the Spanish Armada. However, that did leave him two small ships, the two smallest ships of the five that he'd got ready. And John White is on board one of those two remaining ships.

Starting point is 02:09:40 Now, these are very small ships. These are like 30 and 50 tons tons so they're really quite tiny ships um now and then he records their story but what happens is they get into the bay of bisque which is off the coast of france between france and spain and they're one of the captains picks a fight with a french ship and that doesn't go very well with a french ship with a french ship because yeah you know you can see it today guys england doesn't go very well. With a French ship. With a French ship because, yeah, you know, you can see it today, guys. England doesn't get on with Spain or France. We've been at war with them for 700 years, you know.

Starting point is 02:10:11 But there's a lot of French who spend time in England. There's a lot of English who spend a lot of time in France. Absolutely. It's interesting. Have you not heard about entente cordiale? It's a French term, and it means basically that you're smiling at a person, shaking hands, and with your other hand, you're stabbing a knife in the back. California.

Starting point is 02:10:30 California, right? Okay. What is it with California? I loved San Francisco when I was there. I really loved it. Shots fired. But, no, so anyway, so in the Bay of Biscay, picks a fight with the wrong ship, loses badly.

Starting point is 02:10:46 They escape with their lives. But, of course, they're wounded. And there's a great sort of piece, and I've got it on the laptop. There's a great little quote about the fight. So if you want some blood and gore, I've got a nice quote that you can throw in about that fight. How far off is it? No, go forward.

Starting point is 02:11:08 A bit more. Keep going. We've got this up on the third camera for people watching. Right, okay. Come back to him. Keep going. There's that map we looked at. You need to go. Keep going down.

Starting point is 02:11:23 All you historians are so organized. Yeah, we are okay keep going keep going keep going keep going uh a bit more boom a bit more we're almost there next one right a bit more a bit more uh next one oh there we are now um so they have this fight and there's the quote on the bottom our master and his mate were deadly wounded so that they were not able to come forth of their beds um i myself was wounded twice in the head once with a sword and another time with a pike and hurt also in the side of the buttocks with a shot three of our passengers were also or hurt also whereof uh one had 10 to 12 or 10 or 12 wounds

Starting point is 02:12:08 our master hurt in the face with a pike and thrashed quite through the head what is a pike the thing with the spikes absolutely right yeah he lived and he lived he got hit with one of those things and lived absolutely so i mean this is you know this is, you know, I mean, you know, crazy stuff. But there it is in black and white. That is John White's actual words of the fight that took place on their ship in the Bay of Biscay. So, you know, so, of course, it's a failure. He ends up sort of, you know know escaping with their lives back to england

Starting point is 02:12:47 so nobody goes back to the colony in 1588 or so we thought until very recently and what changed um well i think it might be the next slide the history of right on the Own. Okay. World exclusive for you, Julian. Love that. That's why you're here. Okay. World exclusive. It was a couple of years back now, my colleague, David Carter, was looking through what we call the port books. Now, the port books record ships coming and going. They don't record people because people are just stowage there's no money in people what they do is record the goods that they have on board because that's where the taxes come from and all that so that's why we have these port books they're very fragmented um there's years missing that i wish we had because that would add more to the story but we do have this

Starting point is 02:13:41 record rather mysterious record from the 3rd of october 1588 now this is the year that the two ships that john white was on got to the bay of biscay escaped with their lives yes okay all the records say that was the only attempt to get back to roanoke in 1588 we may not have been so because this record, these two entries that you can see here, basically you can see it on both of them. They both start with a way, it's Latin, so the introdute basically is saying incoming. And then you'll see of Terra Nova. You see those words there? That's the third and fourth letter along. Third and fourth letter along, Terra Nova. You see those words there? That's the third and fourth letter along. Third and fourth letter along, Terra Nova.

Starting point is 02:14:29 Okay. Terra Nova. Looks like Fora Mona from here. Terra Nova, New World. It's what they called America, the New World. No shit. So, and the first ship is the Red Lion. You can see the words there, Red Lion.

Starting point is 02:14:43 I'm sure if you read, you've got Terra Nova, and then next word, and then you've the Red Lion. You can see the words there, Red Lion. I'm sure if you read it, you've got Terra Nova, and then next word, and then you've got Red Lion. Okay. Of Biddeford. Okay. And it then names the captain as Gabriel King. And the entry below is for the ship called the Fortune. You can probably see Fortune.

Starting point is 02:15:00 It looks like it's got two Fs at the start there. There it is. Of Biddeford. And the captain there was Christopher Buell, who incidentally, his brother Valentine was one of the original military colony people. The Red Lion is really interesting because the Red Lion was involved in the 1585 voyage

Starting point is 02:15:22 that Grenville took over. It was also involved in the resupply mission of 1586. So we have a ship with a crew that knows its way back to Roanoke Island. But we have no record of whether they made it back. Did they write the words in any of these passages that we find Roanoke? No. This is not in Haklet. This is not in any other record passages that we find Roanoke? No. This is not in Haklet. This is not in any other record that we know of.

Starting point is 02:15:48 This is a unique record recording in the port book of these two ships coming back from the New World. And this is 1588. Yeah. Now, what we think is going on here is we think these two ships were part of the ships that gremble had to send to fight the spanish armada and when it was evident that they weren't needed they then basically sloped off or sneaked off take a trip off to roanoke um and that now we've no idea whether

Starting point is 02:16:19 they made it there because we don't know um Obviously, you know, they didn't come back with a lot of colonists on board. Otherwise, the world would have known about it. Would we? Would they for sure have written that? I'm absolutely sure of that. Why? Because, well, why would John White go back in 1590 to go and find his daughter and the colonists? What if vacation goers didn't tell him that they skipped a little Misharuni

Starting point is 02:16:46 and went over to America for a trip? Oh, no, no, come on. No, no, no. I mean, why would John White risk his life in 1590 to go back and find them? And when you read his letter to Richard Hacklett, when he records his voyage of 1590, which we'll come on to, he sends that in to Richard Hacklett, the guy right in the books, right in the annuals, with an accompanying letter.

Starting point is 02:17:14 And we have that letter. And it really laments about leaving his daughter out there, you know, abandoned, lost in that colony. There is no way on this planet that in a relatively small nation like this that John White would have gone back if his daughter and husband had made it back to England. Absolutely no way on this planet. Not one way?

Starting point is 02:17:41 Not even one? No, no, 100% not. Do historians argue that there would have been a way? Not even one? No, 100% not. Do historians argue that there would have been a way? We would have known if those colonists had made it back to England. It makes no sense that John White would have gone in 1590. It makes no sense that there would have been several other attempts afterwards that were just vaguely documented and not noted in any

Starting point is 02:18:05 great detail um it makes no sense that the following year that sir walter riley has to sell his sells his charter because he thinks the whole project's dead so you know and these these ships are arriving in biddeford where some of the colonists came from in the first place so back up one sec you could sell your charter so the queen gives you a charter and you just like walk out on the street and be like hi that's better let's go yeah water rally sold his charter to uh a group of London merchantmen and how would they know it was a real charter and not like a fake one because in those days if you did something like that be off with your head yeah but like what if i'm like what if what if i had matt cox and he's like a great forger and you know he's got a fine arts degree and he can you know draw the guys come on come on you couldn't

Starting point is 02:18:55 do that no come on you guys are too good for that over there we're getting into alien abductions here guys and you know what i said about that all right but this is i mean seriously yeah we we would have known that we've got no hard evidence that they actually physically even found roanoke island you know that they knew exactly where they're going we're pretty sure that they must have known where it was and how to get there um but it doesn't tell us any more than that they went to uh you know, they were returning from Terra Nova. And you'll notice there that the very bottom line on both those entries says Richard Grenville Milets. Milets is the Latin for military.

Starting point is 02:19:39 So these two ships belong to Richard Grenville. And they are saying that those ships belong to Richard Grenville. And they are saying that those ships belong to Richard Grenville. That's actually recording that. And because they're the same ones with a lot of the same crew that went in 85 and 86 or 84 and 86, whatever it was, it's reason to believe that they would have sailed in the exact same direction because that's what they know. And they would have ended up at this spot. And even though they don't use the word Roanoke, that's exactly where they would have gone. Yeah.

Starting point is 02:20:03 I suspect that's the case. Okay, and allegedly, if that's the case, and they returned unless they were so... Let's say they showed up and they saw a bunch of people's heads on pikes and they just went the other way and were so traumatized by it that they decided never to tell anyone what they saw.

Starting point is 02:20:18 I guess that's a possibility. But at the very least, they definitely didn't return with any colonists and they didn't tell anyone exactly where they had been in these writings. You've got to bear in mind, these two ships came back to Biddeford, population 3,000 to 4,000 people. Okay.

Starting point is 02:20:33 If a ship had arrived with up to half the people being locals, they would have known about it. It would have been everywhere. The other point to make is there is no records of any of those lost colonists dying in england in our burial records for the parish records there would have been names that we would have said hang on a sec wasn't that someone who went to was part of the lost colony or whatever and you know and here they are not one and there's not one in have you checked other records across the country?

Starting point is 02:21:06 Because maybe they returned and went somewhere else? Well, it's possible, but I seriously doubt it. I mean, these were people that were employed by the investors of the colony. So you've got to bear in mind, let's say there were 20 investors in the colony. There were certainly at least a dozen, okay? They would have returned to those people. And what do you think would have happened? You'd go home. Your boss has just spent Lord knows how much money on you setting up that colony and you turn up on the front doorstep.

Starting point is 02:21:38 Yeah. No, it gets weird. Yeah. It, it, it, you know, there's just too many improbabilities about this to be anything other than that. That was an attempt to find them. Now, leaves a lot of questions open. The biggest question it leaves open to me is, did they actually get to Roanoke? Because all we've got there is the captain's record saying, yeah, I got to Terranova. You know, it doesn't say Roanoke Island. It just says Terranova. Yes.

Starting point is 02:22:08 So it is still a little bit supposition. You'd be like, did they actually get to Roanoke? Or is it just where they sail up and down the coast to see if they could see anyone? So they're just a giant mystery that you guys have discovered in the middle of this. We don't even, I mean, for all we know, they might have actually sailed and gone to Chesapeake Bay because they knew that's where they were supposed to be. They might not have known. You know, if they didn't, if they set off at the same time

Starting point is 02:22:32 as the brave and eroded, you know, John White's trip in 1588, yeah, there's lots of ifs, ands, and buts about it. But I think we can be very, very confident that if those colonists, if they had found those colonies, we would have known about it. And above all, John White would never have gone back in 1590. But John does go back in 1590, as you said. So now that the Spanish Armada, that stuff's done, he has his charter.

Starting point is 02:23:00 He goes back to the colony again. His daughter Eleanor, what's her name? Eleanor, yeah. Eleanor's there. And he's expecting to find, you know, 120, 140 people, whatever it was. Right. And what happens when he goes back? So he goes back and he finds nothing.

Starting point is 02:23:17 There's no sign of them. No sign of life. Actually, it's very, very interesting. He talks about the houses all being taken down. Now, these houses were built out of wattle and daub, and I can kind of cover a little bit about that. Wattle and daub. I can explain that a little bit on one of the other slides

Starting point is 02:23:35 about what they would have lived in and what they would have had. But basically, he goes back and he finds, and this is his words. He says, we found the houses taken down and the place, and this is a punchline, and the place very strongly enclosed with a high palisade of great trees with corteens and flankers, very fort-like. And one of the chief trees or posts on the right side of the entrance had the bark taken off and five foot from the ground

Starting point is 02:24:10 in fair capital letters was engraved Croatoan without any cross or sign of distress. Now, that's a really important passage. Let me run that through, run that bio again. So he gets back to roanoke no sign of the colonists he goes to where the houses were and he says and he notes that we found the houses taken down so that's not burnt to the ground that's systematically dismantled now these houses of whatland daub um it's kind of like a way you can make it's like a prefab house that's

Starting point is 02:24:45 the easiest way for me to describe it you could take these things apart almost modular panels and put them back up again is it wood okay uh usually yeah it's basically uh like hazel twigs or something like that uh the daub is made out of uh crushed seashells and lime and what have you to make it. And then you use like thatching, like reeds on top. What's this called again, Alessi? Let's see if we can pull this out. Wattle and daub. It's W-A-T-T-L-E.

Starting point is 02:25:15 And the word daub is D-A-U-B. So wattle and daub. Wattle and daub. Yeah. Such a British sounding name once again. Very classy. Wattle and daub. Wattle and daub. Yeah. So let's see what you can find. There we go. Wattle and Dorb. Yeah. Such a British sounding name once again. Very classy. Wattle and Dorb. Wattle and Dorb.

Starting point is 02:25:26 Yeah. So let's see what you can find. There we go. Wattle and Dorb. Okay. Images. Oh. So these look very fancy, but I would draw your attention to the more basic ones that show how it was actually made.

Starting point is 02:25:43 But you can see these very simple houses on the the you see on the right hand side there um those top first especially that first couple of images there that's very typical of the sort of thing that would have been produced now this one is actually in mississippi as you can see that's it's mississippi period house but it's not that dissimilar from the kind of place that they would have built. Can you click the one, Alessi, down at the bottom middle, the orange one? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do that one.

Starting point is 02:26:12 That's fine. Is that like plywood there on that? I guess that's like a new one. You would probably use pieces of tree to form like a doorway, like you have a lintel over a doorway to stop the the roof from collapsing in and so on so it's essentially you could basically lift the roof off the way it's built and then you could take each of the side panels and push them down the roof is reed so you just gather up the reeds and untie them all because they would just be

Starting point is 02:26:38 like a like a like a cardboard box yeah i'm trying to think maybe my photographic memory is misremembering some of this right now i feel like you ever seen the movie the patriot yeah so the part like almost a couple hours in that movie where they take a break from the war and they go to that island i believe off south carolina like the shores where all the former slave population are living. I feel like they had houses that look like that. It's a very rudimentary house, but it's dry. And that ultimately is what you build. It's a very simple construction.

Starting point is 02:27:14 So they're gone when they get there. They're gone. He says they're taken down. They're not burnt down. They're not scattered all over the place like they've been ransacked or whatever. So there's just no evidence. Systematically taken down right in its place he says a very strongly in area a place very strongly enclosed with a high palisade remember palisade yes a wooden fence of uh with corteens and flankers

Starting point is 02:27:41 corteens and flankers uh if you can imagine in a castle, you have the turrets, et cetera, with the slots where you can fire your bow and arrows out of and all that. I think Robin of Sherwood kind of thing. Corteens and flankers are how you can protect the sides of your fort. So someone's trying to climb over the wall, you can look out of the tower and you can see down the side of the wall. So it's a military defense way of defending a property you know your castle because you can shoot down the side because you're out in the in the tower that sticks out a little bit and you can look down and shoot people

Starting point is 02:28:14 so um corteens and flankers are military terms for uh designs of a fort that enables you to repel people who are attacking the walls of the fort. Okay, so if you were to look at a typical English castle, you have the round turrets on the corners. So you have the shape with the turrets on the corner. Well, if you're in that turret, you can see straight down the side of the wall. And so anyone trying to climb that wall,

Starting point is 02:28:44 you can shoot at them from that turret. that's where we're talking corteans and flankers that's the old terminology for having that kind of defensive structure so he talks about them having built a very strong uh you know palisade of great trees with corteans and flankers very fort like so so if i'm following this the way he's interpreting the situation right now is that when he left they had these what was it double and they had these wattle and daub houses they've been taken down meaning there's like no evidence they were there but there's not scattered burn marks or anything like that. So they're taken down, and now it's been replaced with a fort-like structure, and there's no one in it. No one in it.

Starting point is 02:29:31 Now, one of the posts to this fort, five foot from the ground, in capital letters is written Croatoan, the word Croatoan. And he says, without any cross or sign of distress now that last bit is because he records in 1587 that he'd left them the uh with a way to kind of give him a message leave a message behind if he got back and found they'd moved he said uh tell us where you've gone and if you had to leave in a hurry put a cross underneath the word so that we know that that cross said you had to leave in a hurry but he says the word croatoan was written without any sign of distress so how you can interpret that i think is fairly straightforward um they were living there for a while the indians from the mainland started attacking again uh the same people the military colony kind of got you know annoyed a bit um so they yeah so they built a fort to protect themselves and then at some point

Starting point is 02:30:34 decided that they were going to dismantle the houses and relocate and so they left the fort they put the word croatoan on the post without the distress symbol to say that we had an orderly retreat, if you like, and we moved somewhere. And where we moved is Croatoan, which is the name of Hatteras Island. This is some Percy Fawcett-like shit. So basically in 1590, and then John White says, I know that they went to Hatteras Island. I know they went to Croatoan because they've told me that,

Starting point is 02:31:06 and they've told me they did that without distress. Can we pull that up, Hatteras Island, on the map? Let's just see where that bad boy's at. So scroll down a bit. There you are. See that triangular area? Yes. That's Hatteras Island there.

Starting point is 02:31:19 So they went there. They knew that island. So he's saying that according to what he found here, and they say Croto, and that means that they then – he determined that they went to Hattress Island. Yeah. Yeah. Now, I have some reservations in terms of I don't believe they all went to Hattress Island, and I have a reason for that. Well, did he sail there right after this to go find them and they weren't there? Well, he tried to, but it looks like they were struck by another hurricane.

Starting point is 02:31:51 And when the hurricanes are coming up that coast in a sailing vessel, you can't sail against a hurricane. Yeah. Yeah. So he basically, they give up and they go back to England. So he never even went to try to find Hattress Island. Because he couldn't, because they couldn't sail there because of the storms. But he couldn't set up camp and wait a week?

Starting point is 02:32:11 Well, this is what you've got to bear in mind. The people we're dealing with now are not Walter Riley and Richard Grimble. We're dealing with people who've bought the charter who at that time had no investment in the people on that island. You know, they're new owners. They're not, you know, the captain of the ship.

Starting point is 02:32:37 They lose several guys actually in the process of trying to. But White's with them. Yeah. And White does have skin in the game. Yes. But he actually, and again, it's documented. It's with them. Yeah. And White does have skin in the game. Yes. But he actually, and again, it's documented. It's his words. He laments the fact that he said, in the end, he basically says,

Starting point is 02:32:52 I persuaded them that we would go to the West Indies, the Caribbean, and overwinter there and repair the ship and make good and then make another attempt to get back to Roanoke. He actually believes that that's what they've agreed to. What happens is they don't sail back to Roanoke. They go to the Caribbean and then head back to England. So White is basically being lied to. And so he comes back to England.

Starting point is 02:33:22 And again, his daughters in the middle of this. His daughters and that. All right, so they go back to England. And again, his daughters in the middle of this. His daughters and that. So, all right, so they go back to England, and the takeaway from that trip is they find nothing at Roanoke. They believe they could have been at Hatteras. They didn't check Hatteras. Yeah. They go to the Caribbean.

Starting point is 02:33:38 He gets lied to. Now they're back in England. Yeah. And this is when White writes down the record of this, right? Yeah, absolutely. Does he make another trip back? No. Yeah. And this is when White writes down the record of this, right? Yeah, absolutely. Does he make another trip back? No. No.

Starting point is 02:33:49 He writes a covering letter with his report from 1590. He writes it to Richard Hackler, and he sends with it a covering letter. And that covering letter, again, it's documentary. It's in Hackler. And it basically says, i feel awkward because i convinced some people to go so there's your evidence that an investor in a colony or someone associated with calling was convincing people to sign up to go to be the part of the colony and he's also lamenting the fact that he has left his daughter and grandchild

Starting point is 02:34:21 abandoned on roanoke island now Oh, she had a kid. Yeah, Virginia Dare. Oh, that's right. What year was that? That's 1587. You know, Virginia Dare is born, and John White witnesses that before he leaves for home. Now, a couple of things from that.

Starting point is 02:34:41 Obviously, so he writes that letter in 1593, and he writes it from Southern Ireland, where he's, at that point, he's working for Thomas Harrier in Southern Ireland. You know, doing, because as a painter, you're also a good map drawer, as you saw. He paints pretty good maps. So he was working on a map of the land in southern ireland at that time so um you know he's but there's nobody prepared to you know to fund him a trip to sail back to find out if his family is still there he's the last person to see them alive and then they vanish and there's no trips that happened between then and Jamestown in 1607?

Starting point is 02:35:25 Well, there were a few attempts, but we've got about three documented, certainly 1597, 1602. But these were half-hearted attempts because one of them actually records that they go to Chesapeake Bay because they think that that's where they were meant to be. But of course they weren't. They were at Roanoke Island. Oh, so they didn't even go. So they didn't even know where they were going to look. They didn't actually know that they were on Roanoke Island. And so they're very half-hearted attempts.

Starting point is 02:35:56 There's a couple of attempts to find them, but nobody's absolutely sure where they're supposed to go. Okay. And by this time, John White, if he's not dead, he's very, very elderly. So I think he was alive in Ireland in 1606 from the document I found. Oh, so we don't have a record of his death. No, we don't. I'm pretty sure I know where he lived, and I have a good feeling I know where he was buried.

Starting point is 02:36:21 All right. Well, we got to send you there with your bubonic plague suit. Yeah, absolutely. Go check it. Yeah. So the village of Ballynow in County Cork is pretty sure where he lived, and that's where he's most likely to have died. So there are a couple of follow-ups from all this,

Starting point is 02:36:38 which are kind of interesting. And this is where we get into trying to, you know, little fragments that come up in historical documents at later dates that kind of allude to what might have happened to some of them. Now, before we get into them, I just want to say, you know, people ask me what do I think happened to them. When I submitted my book to my publisher, the last chapter in that book was never written

Starting point is 02:37:04 because I just wanted to present the facts and they said you've studied this for seven years of your life um and i mean i have literally slept shit that damn research over this time uh it was an obsession you know my bibliography and you know my late wife actually convinced me to finish that book because she said, you must because that's a very important piece of work, and I did. That's why the dedication is to her in the front because she never saw it published. She didn't live to see it published, but there we are. Anyway, so where was I? The last chapter you didn't write.

Starting point is 02:37:41 Didn't write it because they came back to me and they said i said i just want to present the facts and let people make up their own mind present all the evidence and say there's that's the real story that's the truth that's exactly what happened there's all the evidence you make up your own mind what happened and they said you studied it seven years you must have an idea you must have your own conclusion and I do and the analogy I want to use is take four people from different walks of life give them four choices of places to go are they all going to agree on going to the same place no thank you and that is what I think about lost colony now how i would break that down is i think it very obvious that all the families went to hatteras because that was the most secure place manio was

Starting point is 02:38:33 down there friendly indians um you know that was a good place it was the most obvious place for at least some of them to go it's fair to say probably some of them were killed with the uh you know fights with the indians um i think some of the military men were also there in 1585 they were part of the military colony so they're back there in 1587 they knew the colony was supposed to go to chesapeake bay it's my belief that some of them would have made their way to Chesapeake Bay on the basis that if a rescue mission comes, they might be looking for them in Chesapeake Bay because that's where they were supposed to be left.

Starting point is 02:39:14 If you can't trust the pilot, you know, let's cover the bases here, guys. And how far away did you say that was again? I don't know the exact distance, but it took them about three days, I think, three, four days to get there from Roanoke. But the point is they knew where it was. OK, and they knew how to get there. And then they also had an ocean going pinnace. They had a small ship that had made it across the Atlantic Ocean.

Starting point is 02:39:38 And so therefore they had a crew for that ship I think it is possible the one of the other things they might have considered is to send that ship back to get help in England and the great question is is did they ever make it back could have crashed yeah could have sunk could have whatever it could have been set you know but they if they if they did I think it sunk without trace because if they'd have been captured by the Spanish then they would be in the Spanish record somewhere and they're not. Haven't you talked about and looked into research on, though, the whole potential DNA lines in the area, which gets to did they start? I mean, maybe the Crotone women were like really hot. There's a lot of males there.

Starting point is 02:40:24 It was a matriarchal society, and you have to bear in mind, matriarchal society, women choose their men. Can you think about the women of the day? They got this guy that wears a loincloth and he's got a bow and arrow, and then they got this guy who's got almost a suit of armor. Shining armor. Shining armor. He's very fancily dressed.

Starting point is 02:40:45 He's got this fire stick that can kill at X distance, et cetera. He's going to be able to protect the family. So, you know, I'm pretty confident that there was intermarriage that had to have been. It's impossible to think that 85 single men did not, at least some of them, intermarry with a society where the women chose the men. It's absolutely impossible to consider that.

Starting point is 02:41:05 And I have got something here that might actually confirm some of that. Fire away. To take it forward. And I will come back to your question where you're taking that. Really interesting. The first record we have after the events is all over. So John White is in Ireland. He probably died around 1606 or so Richard

Starting point is 02:41:27 Grenville is killed at the Battle of Flores in 1591 so there's really no one around by the time James you know from that Roanoke period by the time Jamestown is settled okay so Jamestown settled in 1607 Thomas Gates arrives a little while later about two three years later his mission is to save Jamestown settled in 1607. Thomas Gates arrives a little while later, about two, three years later. His mission is to save Jamestown because it's dying out. They're committing cannibalism. It's falling apart. Committing cannibalism?

Starting point is 02:41:54 Yeah, pretty sure that was going on. And so he's sent on a mission to save Jamestown, okay? And he receives his set of instructions from the Virginia company of London which is a new company by the way she's a different set of investors from those involved in Roanoke okay so this is where we get into corporate espionage and things like that here because he's kind of interesting one of his instructions is and I quote at Pic Picaracamic, where you shall find four of the English alive left by Sir Walter Raleigh, which live under the protection of a wererance, a king,

Starting point is 02:42:40 enemy to Powhatan, by whose consent you shall never recover them. He's told there are four men of Raleigh's alive and well well but he's instructed never to try and recover them never to try and get them back now think about it those four men would be representatives of the previous company that was set up to set up roanoke yes so that would mean they had a prior claim on america over the company that set up Jamestown. And it's right there in writing. It's right there in writing. He's specifically instructed not to rescue them. But how do they know that those four are there?

Starting point is 02:43:16 Do they not know that? There must have been communication, you know, at Jamestown. There must have been that communication going on because we know the whole Poetan story and pocahontas and all that stuff so that's where this information comes from um wait where does pocahontas tie into this well what i'm saying is um that the jamestown colony was among relatively friendly indians so you, they weren't at war with them, so it would have been easy to find information. And they were probably told, oh, yeah, we've met you guys before.

Starting point is 02:43:52 There's four of them at so-and-so place. And they would have probably been kept as, shall we use the word, slaves because they knew how to build houses and they knew how to make, you know, fire shot and stuff like that. So there's all of that going on. So that's one reference. The next reference we have is a very well-known reference in 1701. So we're now four generations past that.

Starting point is 02:44:20 Yeah, this is way after. But this is very important. John Lawson is a British surveyor. His job is to survey North Carolina for settlement, basically. He has a guide called Eno Wills. His name is Wills, and he's an Eno Indian. He works out, John Lawson works out, that Eno was born of a Hatteras Island or Croatoan mother.

Starting point is 02:44:46 Okay. And he tells us, he reports, this is John Lawson's writing. He says, he tells us that these Indians tell us that several of their ancestors were white people and could talk in a book as we do. The truth of which is confirmed by gray eyes being frequently found amongst

Starting point is 02:45:08 these Indians and no others. Oh, so their genetic traits are literally, whoa. Now we're cooking with gas. Yeah, exactly. So in 1701,

Starting point is 02:45:21 John Lawson records that there are gray eyed Indians who know how to speak from a book. Is there anything in his record that says that he was like a liar or not reputable? No. John Lawson was a very straight up, a boring individual, boring kind of bureaucratic. Boring bureaucratic who just was sent there to survey the land, and that's precisely what he did. He also talks about there being the ruins of a fort on Roanoke Island and that there were discovered some English coins and a brass gun,

Starting point is 02:45:59 a powder horn, and one small quarter-deck gun made of iron staves and hoops with metal so he talks about there being fragments of things on ronike island that had to have come from that um and they found that like archaeologically speaking or just on the ground he would have not dug for me would have been there lying there but like 100 years later yeah 1701 so and then we have one still littered on the ground all that no no no uh the we have a record from uh your um civil war period of there being some looting from that site yeah there's there was looting by the civil war soldiers and at one point they were told they were told stay away from that area

Starting point is 02:46:45 because it's like protected. It's an old fort or something like that. So there is this command that goes out, stay away from the area, stop nicking stuff from that site. Whoa. So we have one last reference and it's the last reference we have

Starting point is 02:46:58 that could relate to the lost colony. And it's in 1712. And it's very, very humorous. So I'll warn you about this one it was written by is reported by the reverend the vicar if you like john ermstone of the city of bath in north carolina he writes to his superiors complaining that his parishioners from hatteras island okay were half indian and half english are an offense to my own and i gravely doubt the kingdom of heaven was designed to accommodate such they stunk and their condition was not

Starting point is 02:47:35 improved by the amounts of sacramental wine they lapped up nor by sprinkling with baptismal waters i'm sorry to hear that for him. Okay. Half Indian, half English. And what year are we talking? 1712. All right. My one thing on that one would be that that's so far after that. Do we have records of people post-Jamestown being in these areas? They were certainly – we do know that there was a trapper

Starting point is 02:48:02 on Roanoke Island in 1654. So 1701, 1712. Is it too late to be people who are descendants of lost colony? We don't know. We will never know until we actually find, you know, find something about it. So the next thing before we get to DNA because I want to

Starting point is 02:48:28 answer that question it's a very important question are you familiar with the dare stones okay this is another bizarre story that is another one of these folklore myths and legends things back in the early 30s this guy found a stone a rock with a carving on it with a message and the message appears to be written by eleanor dare and it talks about how they were all killed and they're buried somewhere and and all the rest of it uh i mean she talks about right here uh yeah there we go that's that one there is the first dare stone and that is the one that people believe if you could pull that up because this is this is really great that's incredible this is great um so this is claimed to have been written by elena dare okay now the

Starting point is 02:49:18 argument that some people have that this is genuine because they say it's written in the elizabethan language can you pull up the second picture there alessi yeah that one with both yeah the second yeah so and that's great you can leave that right there because that's really important at the bottom of the right stone um she talks about them being dead and that they were only seven were saved and they were buried in four miles east of this river, and we know exactly where this is, on a small hill, and the names were all written on the rock. So think about this. We think up to 120 names written on a rock.

Starting point is 02:49:58 You think someone would have found a rock with 120 names on by now? Bearing in mind this is Swampland. It's a nonsense but the sucker punch uh there's two sucker punches really paul green who wrote the lost colony play the stone was off that stone was offered to him for money and his he remarked that it was curious how the colonist knew the storyline of his play 400 years before he wrote it. But the sucker punch for me is on the right stone at the bottom, you'll see EWD. Yes.

Starting point is 02:50:35 Eleanor White Dare. Now, this is where it falls over because the the idea of a woman using her maiden name as her middle christian name so eleanor white becomes eleanor white dare so she writes white as a uses that as a christian name it's a spanish thing and it became fashionable in america in the mid 1800s okay so a while after yeah now in england we do do use what we call double-barreled surnames, as you know from me. But the earliest records of that would have been very, very high-status people and were generally around about 1700.

Starting point is 02:51:17 So what is that telling us here? That stone could not have been written by Eleanor White Dare because it's signed EWD. So all the other arguments about, I don't agree with the constructs. It's not written in Elizabethan language. It's written in someone trying to write Elizabethan language. But that key thing, EWD, she would not have signed herself EWD or Eleanor White Dare in 1587.

Starting point is 02:51:44 So this is not... When she married, yeah, when she married Anna Niasse, and you've seen, you know, I've got the record, Anna Niasse Dare marries Eleanor White. It would have said, as Eleanor White Dare, or something like that. Yes. It would have been a no.

Starting point is 02:51:57 Nothing. She was Eleanor Dare to the day whenever she died. She was not Eleanor White Dare. That stone is a forgery, just like all the others are. Is there any type of explanation that could say that she would have signed it that way? No, none whatsoever, because it just wasn't the way that things were signed. So no one ever signed it like that? No.

Starting point is 02:52:23 Not even by accident if you were right you know if you're writing a letter to your father to your mother how do you sign it my first name would you not sign that eleanor yeah or would she have signed it eleanor dare she would not have signed it or she might have even signed eleanor white but what if she thought it was going to be a message for the future if people found it it's on a rock in this case and she's like okay let me make sure if i just sign eleanor there could have been other eleanors but if i give my initials they can maybe put it down to where i am but she would have signed eleanor dare because that's how a married name think about it we how come here's the thing john white in 1587 records the birth of his granddaughter virginia dare yes ewd is an american uh adapt adaptation of the spanish method of using that and it occurs in the mid-1800s

Starting point is 02:53:27 that stone is a forgery it's not authentic and i mean i could argue about the constructs of the language used on there i could argue about where is this stone with these hundred odd names on it um but can dwd can they measure can they use some form of dating to measure not just the age of the rock, because the rock is obviously very, very old, way older than this stuff, but the age of the writing itself scientifically? That's a good question. I don't know is the answer. What I think would be possible would be you would be able to work out how it was written on the rock. So if someone scratched it on a rock using a hard rock, then you would see grains of the rock that was used to write

Starting point is 02:54:15 scratched out on there. Understood. But imagine if it was like with, say, a drill or a metal tool or something like that, and we start getting into questions. I don't buy it. I say that that is a forgery. Okay. All right.

Starting point is 02:54:33 So what about the DNA stuff, though? Okay, DNA and archaeology. So you remember at the start we talked about me coming over in 2008, 2009. Well, my research very quickly led to saying logically if we're going to find any sign of these people archaeologically speaking any remnants it's going to be on hattress island you know are we going to find skeletal remains where they've been buried some of them you know may have been buried there um what about the pottery that they would have used you know the cups the sauc buried there um what about the pottery that they would have used you know the cups the saucers the plates what about the weapons that they had would we find any

Starting point is 02:55:11 of that there you know all these things that are signs if you like or symbols from that period that would be able to date it if we found dating evidence in the right level in the soil, and it's important, it's called stratigraphy. Best way to explain that, if you dropped a coin from today on the ground today and no one picked it up, 500 years from now, the soil would have been built up over the top of that and it would be, say, a couple of feet, two, three feet down in the ground.

Starting point is 02:55:44 But everything else in that level would be the same date. Yeah? I understand. So stratigraphy, very important. So we did some digs, Lost Colony Research Group. We did some digs in 2009, 10, 11, and 12. The key ones were 9, 10, and 11, really. In 2009, we started to make some discoveries,

Starting point is 02:56:07 and the images at the bottom are just a small sample. I mean, a really small sample. We had 16 boxes of finds for things we found that, you know, give us an indication of English habitation or English influence at a very early date on Hatteras Island. Now, it's really important to say that you never know whether these are trade goods washed up on the shore or the Indians found them somewhere and collected it

Starting point is 02:56:40 because it's just impossible to know for sure because the only way the archaeology is going to confirm that we have found the lost colony is if we find an English Caucasian skeleton, okay, because then that's when we get into the DNA and various things. Or we find something like, say, Virginia Dare's pinky ring or something like that, you know, something personal to one of the colonists that's what we need but these these examples are some of the the typical sort of things we found the one on the left is uh i found

Starting point is 02:57:17 this it's a clay pipe um the front half of the bowl is missing so you've got that concave area that's the where the bowl was uh for the tobacco um quite small and you'll see that bowl is pointing forward rather than kind of upright like a traditional modern day pipe yeah um that's because this pipe is quite early it's not as early as the lost colony but it is almost certainly from uh 1600s late 1600s so we're getting back now the next item we're not 100 sure what it actually was we think it's the remains of a very ornate wax fob because back in those days you know if you wrote a letter you would have a wax seal and then you would imprint your stamp on the seal and that actually it's been crushed but it looks like it might have been some kind of wax seal which could have been lost colony period

Starting point is 02:58:11 you know there's not enough of it to be able to positively identify what it what it actually had now in relation to that there was a very famous find of a signet ring that has a lion rampant on it, so a lion standing upright. This was found years ago out of context, and it's been widely talked about as belonging to the lost colony, and it was solid gold. It's made of brass, and there's nothing to connect it to the family it's supposed to be connected to. So there's a lot of red herrings in all these finds going on. The third item is very, very authentic to the period.

Starting point is 02:58:52 It's actually the firing mechanism from an old flintlock, musket weapon from that period. That is unquestionably Elizabethan and no later than about 1610. So almost certainly lost colony period. And, of course, the wood would have rotted away because the soil is very acid. So you're left with the metal parts, heavily corroded. But that appears to be the flash pan mechanism from a gun of that period. That's interesting. okay um the last piece

Starting point is 02:59:28 remember i talked about wattle and daub yes the house there's a piece right there that is a piece of daub now um if you were to look closely at that um there is actually an indentation that runs the full length of it near the top you can just make it out there you go right just above the arrow you'll see that there's like it looks like a narrow depression that goes right across the length you got it right there that's where the hazel twigs would have been because when you made daub you pressed it onto the hazel twigs so when the hazel finally rots away with rots away all you're left with is the indentation with the hazel. Bravo. Yeah.

Starting point is 03:00:07 I want to make a quick note just for our production. For this slide, they're a little small. So maybe when in the post-edit, we can put the actual pictures one by one. Just double-checking that. Continue, Andy. Sorry. Sorry. You're good.

Starting point is 03:00:22 So the material it's made from from we know how they made the daub daub requires lime to and it goes concrete hard this stuff by the way absolute concrete this is unquestionably a piece of daub that is from the same period as John Lawson's people who grey-eyed people who could speak from a book. It's unquestionably from that period. And when was that? 1701. Yeah, so that's still 100. It's still 100 years, but, you know, four generations,

Starting point is 03:00:56 I mean, four generations ago, 1920. I mean, would you like to see a picture of my grandparents from 1910? I mean, you know, it's not that long ago, four generations. Right, but it's long enough that there could have been other action in the region i agree that's what i'm saying totally agree right um and it is this is still um uh you know subjective if you like uh but we have so much of this sort of stuff that it gets to a point where i think the easiest way to explain it is that whole thing about um you know a lot of smoke there's a fire there somewhere you know um we are that close i think funny that third one is interesting to me it is that musket the point about the last piece of the daub you'll see there appears to be a bit of plate or ceramic stuck in the side of it

Starting point is 03:01:45 you see that on the right hand side that is end on yes i do that's tin glazeware and that was produced around about 1700 okay so that dates that pretty accurately um as potentially being the sort of house because the design of the house was two rooms with one room with a hearth in the middle of it made out of stones a classic two-room wattle and daub house is the design that the lost colonists would have built okay okay so although that's a later piece these things are repaired just like you repair houses today so yes, yes, somewhat subjective. It could be a fragment from a house that was a lost colonist house. It could be a fragment from a house that belonged to those grey-eyed Indians. Yeah, but again, if that plate on the end of it's dated to 1700,

Starting point is 03:02:41 that one is… So this is a point. We are still late today, yeah but it's a very very english thing so you're talking 1701 to 1715 when that that's that stuff was around of people building houses and having those plates in 1700 and living on hattas Island, when the only people we know that were living there for certain were these grey-eyed Indians that Lawson talks about. Fascinating. Potential, yeah.

Starting point is 03:03:14 But you've run into issues with being able... So I think I remember there's three names in the area, Berry, Dare, what's the other one? Do you remember offhand um there are there are a number of names associated with the area to be honest with you um the berry name is one that we've tried to follow up a lot um with a lot of connections uh dare is the one but i need to b-e-r-r-y okay yeah you're good you're good. You're good. You're far enough away. The interesting one, of course, is DARE. Of course. And I have to tell you that all these people looking for a descendant

Starting point is 03:03:53 of the DARES are looking for the wrong person. Why? Well, and I've got the evidence for this. Ananias and Eleanor, a lot of people think Virginia Dare was their first child as well as firstborn American. No, she was not. She was their third child. Their first child was called John after her father. Their second child was a daughter called Thomasine, named after her mother thomasine white thomasine dies in 1590 and john white's wife also thomasine dies in 1591

Starting point is 03:04:36 which leaves john white with his grandson john dare as the only ones still around from that family in 1591. John White is obviously getting old by now and there is a custody battle over John Dare, the son, the oldest son of Ananias and Eleanor Dare. That custody battle was finally resolved in the registries of Canterbury, the prerogative court of Canterbury. So this is like a, could call it like a family court where they decide custody of the kids, et cetera, that kind of thing in the modern day.

Starting point is 03:05:12 And the record very specifically gives custody of John Dare in his minority, so he's under 18 at that time, of course, to a gentleman called John Noakes, who is a family member. So he was a cousin or, you know, whatever. So John Dare is now the adopted child of John Noakes. And in England, when he got married at some point, if he survived, John Dare would have married as john noakes

Starting point is 03:05:45 a descendant of the dare family today is going to be someone with the no surname not the dare family if it lives through the male lines over the years too which is a long time oh yeah someone just had a daughter in there absolutely so but all these people looking for a descendant the dare they're looking for the wrong family Wow so there's that so if we go to the next slide I can cover the important stuff you want to about what we really need so obviously I've talked about in the archaeology we need a skeleton that we can positively ID yep we need or we need something a personal effect or some description. Now, the other thing that we can go for is a tooth. Yeah, dental records, right.

Starting point is 03:06:32 Dental records. Now, it's not so much dental records. Really fairly recent technology in archaeology. The dentine in your teeth as you grow up it record it literally records the water that you've been drinking the profile of the water the amount of calcium in it whatever okay and because we now know all the water profiles for different parts of the world different parts of England for example if we found a tooth and we treated it with either oxygen 16 or oxygen 18 isotope, it will give us a profile of the water the owner of that tooth was drinking.

Starting point is 03:07:13 Whoa. So if we found a skeleton that dated to around the late 1580s, 1590s maybe, and we had a tooth and the skeleton was Caucasian, it was European, we could test that tooth and know where they lived or where they were born and raised. And, of course, if it said London, Biddeford, whatever, then you'd have to argue if we found the skeleton of a lost colony. Now, how do we get a goddamn tooth?

Starting point is 03:07:40 All we need is a tooth, right? How do we get it? Well, yeah, we need to find the skeleton with the tooth, of course. But, yeah, we would be able to extract DNA from the bones with a bit of luck, although the soil is very acid. And we have a lot of people that we have DNA profiles for. Who are the melatonins? Right, I'll cover those.

Starting point is 03:08:00 We have to be careful about what we say about these last two. But, importantly, we need a male line because the Y chromosome that only men carry is incredibly well documented. We know a great deal about Y chromosomes. It's a fraction of the size of the female X chromosome. So it is fully decoded. And so, therefore, to find matches is incredibly easy. We actually did find one match when we were looking at people in Biddeford

Starting point is 03:08:28 with people here, and it wasn't what we wanted, but it proved the technology. We found a guy living on Prince Edward Island in Canada who had the same markers as a guy living in Biddeford today. And then when we did the trace back, we found that they were descended from two brothers who lived just outside Biddeford in 1701. And one of them had left for Prince Edward Island in 1717,

Starting point is 03:08:57 and then those lines had developed that way. But 300 years later, we can still confirm they had a common ancestor. Who found this? This was found by Roberta Estes, Bobby Estes, good friend of mine. She's a DNA specialist. Wow. She's been all over the world doing DNA. She can talk about this more so than I can, but she's down in Florida, guys.

Starting point is 03:09:24 But anyway, the last two, the Melungeons, right? I thought you heard that name yeah melungeons melungeons are a group of people who claim to be lost colonists okay uh where are they from um they're kind of scattered around on the eastern this side of the mississippi but the important thing is where are they from like where'd they hail from well uh they just live uh i think north carolina and other areas but my point is that they've always claimed to be descendants of the lost colony right but do they okay so they claim to be descendants of the literal bitterford people well yeah basically do they consider them basically. Do they consider them Biddeford people? They consider themselves to be descendants of the lost colony. Okay.

Starting point is 03:10:07 Okay. But some of them actually chose to test to prove a point. And when the test came back, no. They are the result of a relationship which we need to be politically correct about. And they're nothing to do with a lost colony whatsoever. What kind of relationship? Possibly slave owner. Okay.

Starting point is 03:10:34 Because the DNA is not lost colony DNA. Not good. The Lumbees won't test, almost certainly for fear of the same fate. Who are they? They will not test. They are based in Lumberton, around Lumberton in North Carolina. They will not test. Now, they put up all sorts of claims, oh, it's against our beliefs and blah, blah, blah. Oh, God.

Starting point is 03:10:54 But they cannot make that claim scientifically without a proven test for us to benchmark against. All right. So they're cut. So that's where we are. So I just want to summarize, wrap this up now. I actually got some more, any other questions you need answering. So I just put it all down. When I finished it, I thought, it's just crazy. If Ralph Lane hadn't have taken the trip back with Sir Francis Drake and it had stayed for Grenville, it would still be there possibly. If Grenville hadn't got stuck on the sandbank,

Starting point is 03:11:27 he would have got there early enough. If Grenville's 15 men had actually sat tight on Roanoke and done their job, they would have been there when John White arrived in 87. If Simon Fernando had taken them to Chesapeake Bay, that might have succeeded just like Jamestown did in the end in Chesapeake Bay. If the captain of the Brave and the Row hadn't picked a fight

Starting point is 03:11:48 with the French in the Bay of Biscay in 1588, he might have got back, and then that would have been okay. You know, Francis Drake and Ralph Lane, and again, John White in 1590 probably had some real issues with hurricanes while they were trying to sort out what they were doing. You know, John White couldn't get back because of the hurricane. And then, of course, the classic one, the Spanish Armada chose to attack England in 1588 just as we were going back with supplies

Starting point is 03:12:17 for the lost colony. It's a lot. It's just incredible, you know. It would be an unbelievable coincidence. I guess the last slide is really just me summarizing my last comments in the book, and it was what I was asked to write, and it's a fact. I think, you know, if you think about it, if we find just one descendant of a lost colonist or a descendant of Grenville's men alive today,

Starting point is 03:12:40 that revelation will rewrite the history of America. And in my opinion, it would also provide the necessary catalyst to guarantee recognition force of Richard Grenville, for without him, I doubt the story of the lost colony of Roanoke would ever have been written because the rally didn't come over. It was because of Grenville's efforts that there was even as success there was. This is some pretty unbelievable stuff that you've dug up here. I mean, I got to read the book. Again, it's Richard Grenville and the Lost Colony of Roanoke. It'll be in the Amazon store. Link in my description. It's right there. not so much a conspiracy as it is just a cool finding you'd be able to have some sort of

Starting point is 03:13:26 recognition for the real people who actually tried to do it here first and it's it's also so mysterious because it's like they write that croatoan without the distress signal so we know how much of the how much of the narrative of America is that there's unfortunately some very negative history with us displacing Native Americans and stuff like that. Was the first one actually a peaceful coalition though? The dark side to it is that what if it wasn't and it turned the other way and it went the way that a lot of other stuff did and that we know throughout history where the two groups fought and in this case they all got killed but it's really a tragedy in a lot of ways to me at the middle of the story that you have this guy john white who is in search of his family and then never gets the chance to even make sure that they'd gone or find out if they went to hatteras and then never even gets to come back.

Starting point is 03:14:25 And he lives out the rest of his days back home, wondering whatever happened. That's, that's tragic. It's extraordinary, isn't it? Yes. I mean,

Starting point is 03:14:32 I say I, when I started getting into this story, the more I started digging, the more I thought you can't make this up. No, it's just, uh, you know,

Starting point is 03:14:41 you always hear the basic, the voyages. He did this, he came back, he did this, he came back. And then you hear the folklore, myths voyages he did this he came back he did this he came back and then you hear the folklore myths and legends that are thrown into it etc uh oh alien abduction or whatever it is you know and all that and i know guys uh i set out to lay out the facts and um and that's what that book was all about i never intended or never expected to make money out of it i mean you know you know, I still rent a house.

Starting point is 03:15:06 I don't own a house, so it hasn't made that much money. Maybe Walt Disney will want to give me a deal for the script. You know, who knows? Well, you're a Yankee now. You live here. You're one of us. You're on Team America. Hey, y'all.

Starting point is 03:15:22 Never do that again, please. All right. Well, I actually – there is another thing I want to talk about. We're coming up on – I'm just looking at the time here and guessing the runtime on this episode. Raw right now is like 3.15. So I don't like to go too much longer than that. So what I'm going to do, two things. Number one, you've talked about potentially doing a YouTube channel where you go through this bit by bit.

Starting point is 03:15:45 And then I talked about you should also then cover other parts of colonial history. In the comments, please let this guy know that he needs to do that because I will watch the shit out of that channel. So that's number one. I hope we're linking to a YouTube channel in the future and we have more things to talk about. Oh, yeah. I'm so grateful for you allowing me to put this out here, Julian. So thank you very much. Thank you coming it's been amazing the second thing is we're going to stop the podcast now and then we're either going to do something that we'll have as a separate clip

Starting point is 03:16:13 on our clips channel julian dory clips on youtube or we'll do a patreon episode out of this alessia and i'll make that determination but i want to talk with you before you leave about history channel and some of the stuff that happened there because i what I'll say to not leave people in suspense is that for whatever reason, some of what was put in there obviously did not include everything you had to say. It did not include something like what we've discussed on this full podcast. I want to make sure you set some of that record straight and go through that. So until then, everybody else, you know what it is. Give it a thought. Get back to me. Peace. Thank you guys for watching the episode. Before you leave, please be sure to hit that subscribe button and smash

Starting point is 03:16:52 that like button on the video. It's a huge help. And also if you're over on Instagram, be sure to follow the show at Julian Dory podcast, or also on my personal page at Julian D. Dory. Both links are in the description below. Finally, if you'd like to catch up on our latest episodes, use the Julian Dory podcast playlist link in the description below. Thank you.

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