Julian Dorey Podcast - 😏 [VIDEO] - The Most Genius (Sociopath) SNITCH of All Time | Matt Cox • 178

Episode Date: December 27, 2023

(***TIMESTAMPS in Description Below) ~ Matthew Cox is a notorious former con artist, FBI’s Most Wanted suspect, fraud expert, and criminal. Retired from the game, he is now a prolific author and YouTuber. Jim DiOrio is a former FBI Special Agent in Charge & a West Point-educated Special Forces Veteran. EPISODE LINKS: - Protect Your Retirement W/ A Gold. IRA https://www.noblegoldinvestments.com/juliandorey or call 877-646-5347 Noble Gold is Who I Trust ^^^ - Julian Dorey PODCAST MERCH: https://legacy.23point5.com/creator/Julian-Dorey-9826?tab=Featured  - Support our Show on PATREON: https://www.patreon.com/JulianDorey  - Join our DISCORD: https://discord.gg/cmmfvrmC  - SUBSCRIBE to Clips Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@UChs-BsSX71a_leuqUk7vtDg  MATT LINKS - MATT YOUTUBE: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC3_qYh4foNgVXI7NzcuxlCA  - MATT BOOKS ON AMAZON: https://www.amazon.com/stores/Matthew-Cox/author/B08372LKZG?ref=ap_rdr&store_ref=ap_rdr&isDramIntegrated=true&shoppingPortalEnabled=true  - MATT INSTAGRAM: https://www.instagram.com/insidetruecrime/?hl=en  ***TIMESTAMPS*** 0:00 - Snitching On Ron Wilson Backstory 7:25 - Matt cuts a deal 17:47 - Jim explains power of FBI cooperation; Billionaire Amodeo files 2255 for Matt 28:49 - Matt gets emotional about Frank Amodeo 35:09 - Frank Amodeo in and out of prison; Frank hilarious prison stories 42:09 - How Matt Cox met CIA Spy Andrew Bustamante; Writing Amodeo’s book 48:09 - Frank Amodeo tries to take over The Congo (STORY) 57:09 - Simon Mann Coup D’etat 1:00:22 - Matt snitches to reduce prison sentence; An unlikely forgiveness 1:09:10 - Matt’s backstory writing book that became “War Dogs”; Efraim Diveroli 1:17:26 - Efraim Diveroli is a complete scumbag; Matt writes book in 3 months 1:24:56 - Frank Abagnale (“Catch Me If You Can”) is a fraud; Warner Brothers Standoff story 1:35:21 - How gov pulled fast one on Diveroli and David Packouz 1:43:46 - Diveroli gets entrapped by agent story; Diveroli leaves prison 1:47:26 - Diveroli screws over Matt Cox 1:57:07 - Why “War Dogs” is FAKE 2:03:06 - Matt goes to Warner Brothers w/ leverage 2:09:06 - Warner Bros. mediation falls through; Matt gets lawyers fired 2:14:26 - Matt & Efraim meet at Miami str1p club to talk deal 2:27:46 - Matt destroys Efraim Diveroli to his face; Deal made 2:32:19 - This long-awaited one met the mark CREDITS: - Hosted & Edited & Produced by Julian D. Dorey - Intro Edited by Alessi Allaman ~ Get $150 Off The Eight Sleep Pod Pro Mattress / Mattress Cover (USING CODE: “JULIANDOREY”): https://eight-sleep.ioym.net/trendifier Julian's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/julianddorey ~ Music via Artlist.io ~ Julian Dorey Podcast Episode 178 - Matt Cox & Jim DiOrio Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up guys? If you're on Spotify right now, please follow the show so that you don't miss any future episodes and leave a five-star review. Thank you. ron say it ain't so and i said get the f**k out of here he's like yeah i was like for what he's like for you know for the ponzi i told you the ponzi scheme i said no he found the ponzi scheme yeah yeah he said they brought my wife in there and she denied it the first day she called they she said i don't know what you're talking about she denied it and the next morning she came back She gave him $350,000. So I'm walking around the prison compound and there was an old guy named Ron Wilson. Ron Wilson stole $57 million. There's articles that say he stole like it's like $100 million.

But really the loss was $57 million, right? Because it's ponzi scheme you know they'll jack up how much he's supposed to have made and got back but it ends up being 57 million so and most of that money was taken from like pension funds retirees um churches you know uh and and so he was an old con man, right? And this is going to sound horrible, but I liked Ron Wilson. I liked him. He was super gruff, real – an abrasive personality. You don't say. In prison?

No, no, outside of prison. In prison, he was probably softer, but he was a harsh, harsh guy. But I really – I did like him. So I don't want to sit here and say, oh, I didn't like the guy. I'm not going to lie. I liked him. That's Ron Wilson. Hmm.

I see what you're saying. City councilman too, by the way. Goddamn. Something about these fucking Florida city councilmen. No, no. This was South Carolina. He was also the president of the Sons of confederacy oh so in prison now that's not a good look for him um depends where you are i guess right because they're running they're running clans over there no pun intended nice guy anyway he's not give a little damage man

so many years he got yeah he got like 19 and a half years it says 20 we got 19 and a half so it's a huge sentence he's out by now he's out already so what happens is this amadeo got him out no okay so what happens is i see him i i start i we start talking you know we're two con men in prison we shoot the shit he kind of reminds me of my dad, right? I like him. He's a nice guy. We walk around. We're always hanging out, talking.

He knows. Keep in mind, I come back. I got seven years knocked off my sentence. Like, if you didn't know I was a snitch before, I just went back to federal prison, got seven years knocked off my sentence. It won't take long to tell you Neutral's ingredients. Vodka. S soda, natural flavors. So, what should we talk about? No sugar added?

Neutral. Refreshingly simple. What's better than a well-marbled ribeye sizzling on the barbecue? A well-marbled ribeye sizzling on the barbecue that was carefully selected by an Instacart shopper and delivered to your door. A well-marbled ribeye you ordered without even leaving the kiddie pool. Whatever groceries your summer calls for, Instacart has you covered. Download the Instacart app and enjoy $0 delivery fees on your first three orders. Service fees, exclusions, and terms apply. Instacart, groceries that over-deliver. I knocked off my sentence and showed back up in prison it's everywhere right if you haven't checked out matt's previous episodes on the podcast episode 96 and 111 they are hilarious so after this one if you

want to check those out they are in the links to them are in the description below on the episode i'm talking to wilson wilson has just gotten to prison and wil Wilson, by the way, is cooperating in his case. He's cooperating against several of his – of the financial advisors in his case. And he keeps telling me they're never going to reduce my sentence. And I'm like, why wouldn't they? He goes, because they think I hid Ponzi scheme, some of the Ponzi scheme money. And I'm like, well, they would have to prove that. Did you?

And he goes, no. And I went, OK. Good enough for me. I said, then you didn't. I said they would have to prove that they'd have to find the money and then they could withhold that. And if not, I said, we'll have Amadeo file a motion. We'll get it for you, bro. You're going to be all right.

We keep going around and going. He mentions it again. He mentioned it. This is for three months. He mentions it every week or two. Oh, they're never, I'm never going to get nothing. You'll be fine. You've already done whatever, a year or two. They'll reduce it this much, this much. Boom, boom, boom. You'll be out of here in like six or seven, you know, five, six years, whatever. You'll be in a halfway house in a year. You'll be fine. You probably got five years left. That's what you're really looking at. And you're also kind of giving him hope, right? So we're walking around and he mentions it again one day. They're never going to get me. And I go, you know, keep saying that. I think I hid Ponzi scheme money. And I'm like, you know, you keep saying that.

And I said, why do you keep saying that? And he goes, can I trust you? And I went, probably not. And he looked at me and he goes, I did put away some money. And I went, really? And he goes, yeah, yeah. Actually, and here's – this is how fucked up I am. My first thought was – and I said, really?

I said, you said you didn't. He said, I know, but I did. Can I start my tape recorder real fast? Hold on. He said – he goes, yeah, I know, but I did. He said, I gave my wife $150,000 to hold. He said, you know – he said the problem is that she now knows. She's found out that I was having an affair.

And my fear is she's just going to turn it in to make sure I don't get anything off my sentence. His wife was a – according to him, really, and I believe him, a very, very vicious woman. So – and I knew his life inside and out. So – and I knew about the woman he was having an affair with. She was one of the financial advisors that worked underneath him or with him. So I'm like, okay, okay. And so we're walking. I also gave my brother about 30 grand.

I was like, all right. And so we're walking. And I said, still, they'd have to turn the money in and they're not going to. He's, I think they will. I said, well, you hope they just hope that they won't. Hopefully they don't, you know? And he was like, well, yeah, you're right. So I remember my first thought when he had said that the 150, I thought, is that enough? Is that enough to get me a reduction? Because my thought was they didn't want to give me a reduction the first time. They wanted 30 months off my sentence. I got seven years. They're not going to give anything, me anything ever again. This is it. I'm doing like I had, I was resolved to, you're just going to, you're going to write your story.

You're going to write your little true crime stories. You're going to publish some books. You're going to get a whole bunch of books out there. And that will be some residual income when you get out. And that's what you're going to do the rest of your life. And that's okay. That's a good life. But then he said this and I thought, yeah, that's not enough. So I said, yeah, it's not enough. They're not going to do anything. And I go and I lay down. And I'm telling you, a month went by. And I was waiting. Keep in mind, I just got back a month or so later. A few months.

My lawyer was supposed to send me my sentencing transcripts because I wanted to add some of the stuff at the back of my memoir. I hadn't published it. I just had a manuscript. So I wanted my sentencing transcripts. And she hadn't sent it. So I called her one day. I said, hey, listen, by the way, here's what's going on. I need my sentencing transcripts. And she's like, oh, God, Matt, I'm so sorry. I was going to do that. Okay. Okay. She said, I'll do it. I'll do it. You got to write me a check. It's for this much. It's $100. Okay. Okay. I'll have somebody write you a check. And she goes, anything else going on? And going on and i went like what and she goes this is a woman who never wanted to talk

to me they don't want they want to spend i don't know what her deal was that day but she was like anything else happening i was like no she has nothing going on in there you want to talk about and i went no i said okay you know what listen to this this. This is weird. And I told her, there's a guy named Ron Wilson. And she's, hold on, let me pull his name up. Who is it? She goes, ooh, this is a bad guy. This guy stole a lot of money. And she goes, and I was like, right.

And I said, well, so here's what he told me. And I told her. And I said, but I don't think that's enough for them to do anything. And that's not good. They're just going to take the money. They're not going to indict these people, right? These are people that just are holding money they're not gonna she's oh you never know she's let me look into it i said all right hang up the phone probably a week

later i get a ceo sees me one day and he comes up he goes cox i'm like yeah what's up he goes you got to go to sis at the move because you know they have moves controlled movements right they unlock the door you can go for five or ten minutes i'm like oh okay i didn't think anything of it because i ordered so many freedom of information acts i was always going down to sis because they were always catching a freedom of information he's looking at you weird he is but they don't know what i'm going there so they always think it's something you know something uh nefarious right they always think you're cooperating you're telling them something and so every time they go you gotta go down there and i could come back with a bunch of freedom of information act that i'd ordered on

you and they didn't want to give it to me until i said no it's for a story and they'd give it to me and they're still not supposed to give it to me but they they would because they knew i was writing stories so i go down there and i walk in. I knock on the door. I go, hey, man, they told me to come down here. And they're like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And this one cop I never talked to, total fucking asshole, is like, come in here, cocks. I'm walking. I'm like, fuck.

Now I'm worried. Sit down. Fuck. I sit down. He goes, hold on a second. Dial some number. Here. You got to talk to this guy.

And I'm thinking, what the fuck is going on and i grabbed the phone keep in mind there's been a lot of stuff with the freedom of information act like i've had times where they wouldn't give it to me times where where homicide detectives were calling them and asking who i was and what i was so i didn't really know as soon as i got it and the guy goes this is agent um it's like scott griffin from the secret service from a you know south carolina secret service i understand you know where ron wilson has hid Ponzi scheme money and i thought oh damn yeah it's gonna cost you and i said nah bro i said i can't just be telling you i'm just gonna just tell you i said i need something in writing and i said and by the way

it's not a lot of money. It's not millions. And he goes, well, how much is it? I said, look, I'm not going to tell you exactly, but I do know something. Maybe it'll help. But I want a letter from the U.S. attorney saying they will consider, they will give me something if I get you money back. I said, I don't even know indictment, just money. And he goes, OK, well, let me look into it. He gives me his email address and I put him on my Corlinks, and I write him.

He actually, about a month later, I get a letter from the – an email from the U.S. attorney saying if we recover – if there's indictments, indictments, arrests, or we recover a substantial amount of money, we will consider it it substantial assistance but that's the best i'm going to get like it's like you accept this and work with us or go yourself into your time like right what does it matter so i start emailing back and forth with them and they're writing me saying ask wilson this ask wilson this so we start we're walking around and periodically i would ask him something but it it's not easy to – you can't just say, hey, did Jimmy ever – you have to slowly – you mention it and if he comes around, he comes around. And if not, then he – and they're always pushy. Well, you need to figure out, find out. I'm like, listen, bro. I've got to play this smooth.

I've got to play this smooth and I'm in fucking prison as a snitch already. Like believe it. I know it's a low, but people are getting stabbed. People are getting beat up. But people that – those things are happening to typically have it coming. Like, they ran up a $500 debt and then told the guy to go fuck off and just didn't pay him. That guy has got to do something to him. I'm not really bothering anybody.

How often did guys, like when they got stabbed and shit, like actually die in there? No. When you were there? Almost never. No. They just stab them up a little bit. That's a phrase I heard. Yeah.

A little pain. A little pain. That's a phrase. Don't hit the liver. The first time I heard someone got stabbed, I was like, someone died? And he was like, nah, he just stabbed them up a little bit. When someone says you stabbed them up a little bit, that's not normal. It's warm and red.

No, it's not normal. So, yeah, so that's what – so basically I'm walking around. I mention this. I mention that. I say this. I say this. And by the way, I keep telling the secret service. I keep throwing in stuff like, do you feel like this is substantially furthering your investigation?

Absolutely it's substantially furthering our investigation. I feel that – so I'm really – so I've got a bunch of emails. So finally one day – and what happens is, by the way, I do let them know exactly what he told me, 150 and 300,000. And they give you the response in writing that says like this yeah i got an email that said but you know once again it's consider it so we're going back and i keep thinking well just call them in you know like i also they could have come in and said we know you have this much they could have said go fuck yourself nothing they could do if they buried it in the backyard. So anyway, what happens is this drags out like six months. And then one day I get an email that says Ron Wilson's about to get a really, really bad message here.

Like he's about to have a really bad day. Let us know as soon as you hear what happens. And I'm like, you know, so Wilson one day, you know, Cox, Cox. And I'm like, you know. So Wilson one day, you know, cocks, cocks. And I'm like, you know, I'm on edge. Oh, yeah. Not that I think, like, Wilson's not a big guy. I was going to say, this is a scary guy. He's not going to.

But still, though. Yeah, still like a little bit edgy. Yeah. You don't know what he's going to do or how he's going to respond. Or who he's going to pay off. And not just that. Even if he throws a fit fit even if he threw a fit i could end up going to the shoe and getting shipped for my own protection

i don't want that my mother comes to see me every two weeks she's 80 some odd years old no so your mom came to see you every two every two weeks for 13 years she's a gangster was so what ends up happening is wilson comes up me and says, you're not going to believe this. They just indicted my ex-wife, my brother, and they indicted me. And I went. You're kidding. No, Ron. Say it ain't so.

No. no ron say it ain't so and i won't be seeing you for as long as i thought i hugged him and said let's cry it out no and i you know i said i said get the fuck out of here and he was like he was like he's like yeah i was like for what for what and he goes he's, he's like, for, you know, for the Ponzi. I told you the Ponzi scheme. I said, no, I found the Ponzi scheme. Yeah, yeah. He said, they brought my, they brought my wife in there and she denied it. The first day that she called, she said, I don't know what you're talking about. She denied it.

And the next morning she came back and she gave him $350,000 in cash and gold and silver bullion. And I went, what? Keep in mind, his Ponzi scheme was based on silver. So he had like nuggets and ingots and everything. So he really had money buried in gold and silver and shit buried. So she gave him all this stuff. And he goes, then my brother came in the next day and walked in and gave him $150,000. I said, bro, you said it was like $30,000.

You said it was like – I know. I know. He said it was more than what I said. I didn't – I just didn't trust you. And I was like, that's insulting that you wouldn't trust me. So – I would never tell about $30,000. Yeah.

So he's like, yeah, they've indicted me. My lawyer said they're going to be moving me. I was like, okay, well, I'm sure it will be okay. We're going to be moving me. I was like, OK, well, I'm sure it'll be OK. We're going to miss you. And, you know, you have to understand, look, you have to understand there's different levels of cooperation. If I give Jim some information, hey, this guy Todd is selling drugs out of his house. But that's all I give him. And then he investigates and he ends up finding out and he ends up he does end up pulling him over one day finds drugs on him arrests him Okay, I get something because it was really in passing. It wasn't a big deal, right? I didn't give you a ton of information

If I wear a wire on you And I get information and I start pulling information and I work which essentially I was doing emails Going out getting the information coming back giving and i'm giving them information that they don't know and that they can independently verify. In fact, I'm also giving them information that they said – Spot on. No. Mr. Cox, you're saying that there was 300,000 here.

There wasn't. We would have known that. I said absolutely not. So-and-so's mother got a settlement, and she bought that condo with that money and this and sold it, and the money went into another account. And they come back. They'd be like, man, I don't know how we missed that, but we found out that's true. You're right. So now that's money you can go after, isn't it?

You see what I'm saying? So it's like – So I really – they were like, you have no idea. Like, you're, this is great. So then the next level would be, what if somebody goes to trial and I testify in trial? That's the best. As an eyewitness. Yeah, absolutely. And having them, if you can have someone in their own words explain what they did, that's the most powerful piece, right?

So that's going to be, and even depends on the level of the investigator or the agent. You might give them something that you think is just nothing, but it's a missing piece. And if there's a good, aggressive, competent investigator, they're going to run that out. Right. And I'm going to come back. If it was me, I'm coming back to you to give you the credit for that, because I understand we can independently cooperate based on what you told us. And there's no way that we would have got to that point without that cooperator. Right. But a lot of people don't look at it that way. A lot of people are lazy as shit. So they don't do anything about it. They just let it go. I can't be anything. He's a criminal. So the other thing is that also depends on how much they're going to ask the judge for a reduction. Right. I gave us some information. It panned out. Give him a little bit off. 25%.

Oh, he did this. Give him 30 percent. Oh, you know what? Your honor was amazing. He really did this and this and testified. He put himself in real danger. Give him 50 percent. So Wilson says, man, I don't know what to do.

What should I do? And I go, you should go to trial. Because I know they'll have to call me as a witness. Oh, shit. Exactly. So now you're covered. Don't you fucking put up with any shit ron you need to drag this out see if you can get it past the bow so walking in the courtroom wave yeah sorry pal so anyway what happens with with Wilson is he says, yeah, I'm going to go back.

So the next couple days later, they put him on the pack out, right? The transfer sheet. And he packs his bag out and he gets moved back to South Carolina. So he's back there a few months, six months, and he pleads guilty and he gets sentenced to six more months. He's already got 19 and a half years so now it's 20 years actually not the worst outcome ever for him no and then his wife gets like she gets like it was like it's like a hundred hours of um community service community service and like six months probation and then his his brother – because they got hit with obstruction of justice. And then his brother ends up getting like whatever it was, six months – three months probation, like nothing.

I don't even think they're felons. I'm saying like it's nothing. So, okay. The problem with that is that that's not a huge sentence, is it? Like how much – what's that going to do for me? They're not taking this super serious. Chances are you've been here before. There's absolute chaos in the markets, whether it be oil or stocks.

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you can claim your free coin today. To protect your wealth and retirement money, open up a gold IRA today by going to www.noblegoldinvestments.com slash Julian Dory, or by calling 877-646-5347. Once again, that's noblegoldinvestments.com slash Julian Dory. Remember, crisis, bruise, portfolios, know, I've been telling the only one of the only person I've been telling what's going on is Frank Amadeo. And he's like, document everything. So what happens is afterward, I wait and I wait and I wait about six months and we write a letter and say, hey, where's my reduction? No response. So Frank files another 2255 and the court comes back and they say, we say, look, Mr. Cox was approached by the Secret

Service. He was contacted, you know, the U.S. attorney agreed that they would reduce his sentence. He helped with this. He helped that. We sent them like a list of emails. Like we traded over 100 emails with the Secret Service, blah, blah, blah, blah, all the way down the line. They said they'd give something. What's going on? And the U.S. attorney came back and said, we don't even know what you're talking about. We don't have any agreement with Mr. Cox. So we send the letter that they didn't think I had, by the way.

Why didn't they think you had that? I don't know. Because it was a letter to the Secret Service agent that he forwarded to me. So he didn't turn that over then, clearly. What do you mean? The Secret Service agent didn't allow them to be involved in that piece. No, the Secret Service, I think the U.S. attorney, no, the U.S. attorney just didn't think the Secret Service agent had forwarded me the letter. It was a letter to him saying, we will reduce Mr. Crosby's sentence, reduce mr under sentence blah blah it wasn't to me

so he forwarded that okay to me and they probably just didn't think it was happening keep mine too this is also but that is so that is so damn corrupt no i mean but i'm not gonna i will not sit here and listen to you talk bad about the federal government i won won't do it. But listen, how much money do you want from me? This guy would get me. But seriously, that's a big-time issue. I mean, I'm being as honest as I can be. I mean, that just doesn't happen. That's one thing I do appreciate about post-career gym.

Like, you call it where you see it, and not just with the FBI, but with all of them. Like, you know, when they're in the right, they're in the right. That's a fireable offense. But when they're wrong, you ain't afraid to say it. I appreciate that. Projectorial immunity. Besides the fact – I mean this is – it is a significant charge because it's a conspiracy to commit obstruction.

So both on the guy himself and the wife and the brother. That's a conspiracy. I mean that's a significant charge. I mean, I feel like it is. I mean, they're a felon. I mean, they're – and they are convicted felons. Yeah. Oh, they are.

Absolutely. But they did – they got like almost no time. But I mean, the punishment doesn't – They got nothing. I mean, it's clear that the obstruction, the conspiracy to commit obstruction is significant. It's a significant charge. I'm just disgusted with the whole thing. That's just me. Well, just disgusted with the whole thing but that's just me

well my disgust was a little bit i'm thinking it's probably a little bit more because i was yeah you're the one doing the time so but i'm as disgusted as i can be yeah without having nearly to the level of disgust uh well no i was married twice i definitely served time oh i always say that about my my ex-wife's new husband. Like, he's doing some serious stuff. I saw something. Listen, my marriage with my first wife, like, prepared me for prison. Like, I was like, it wasn't as bad.

I saw something that said, it's, hey, you think you're having a bad day? There's some dude waking up with your ex-wife thinking he met his soulmate. That is a beautiful – that keeps me going. That keeps me going. You have a good relationship with her, though. It's a funny relationship. I do now. And I do with my first one.

That's good. Yeah. Okay. Maybe you'll have one with the second one eventually. Maybe. 50, 60 years. Yeah. Takes time.

So anyway, so I end up – Frank files a motion, a 2255. We go back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. At some point – and I think Jim will probably realize – understand this more so than most people. I don't want to go into it too much um the judge ends up saying because we argued equitable tolling again that my lawyer didn't understand this is my next lawyer like being my lawyer is a mistake right she was incompetent she's ineffective she didn't understand still comes and testifies for you she hangs out we wave we wave we hug so she hug. So we say all this, and we go back and forth. And the judge, after going back, forth, back, forth, the judge says, listen, I don't believe that I have jurisdiction to rule on this. He said, so I'm going to – he said, I'm denying it, but I'm giving you a certificate of appealability.

Interesting. Appealability? So take it to the next level. Right. And you have my permission to do so. And I'm waiving the fee that Mr. Cox has to pay. I had to pay a $500 fee. Interesting.

He said, I'm waiving the fee giving him so first of all he doesn't give you one you go to the magistrate judge and you argue that you have the right to appeal the magistrate judge could say i don't think you have a case no so but the judge said fuck that here's your certificate and i'm waving the 500 oh sorry and i'm waving500. You go forward. And what that's saying to the U.S. attorney and to the appellate court is I think he has something. Absolutely. You know what I'm saying? And because they saw that and they're like, oh, shit, they immediately said we would like a stay of the proceedings. We'd like to have the court assign a lawyer. And that lawyer flew down to Coleman and came and saw me.

And I went in there and I said, what's going on? And she said, well, they're offering you one level reduction. And I went, okay. And they said, yeah, so one level reduction. And I went, okay. And they said, yeah, so one level reduction. And she goes, you know, look, your stuff's written well, but you really don't have a prayer. And I go, well, I want four levels. Again. Frank said four levels.

This is a new attorney, by the way, who went to Harvard. Oh, you're moving up in the world. Yeah. And she goes, she said, yeah, no. She said, man, I just don't have a prayer. I said, you saw my last one. And she was like, right. I said, well, then if I don't have a prayer, you're going to lose. I said, then why are you here? Like, why?, you think I'm going to get crushed? She goes, yeah. I go, then why not crush me? Why do this? Why have, why spend, what, 11 grand on you and fly you down here? Why do that?

I said, because they might lose. She said, I don't think they'll lose. And I said, I think they might. And I think they're afraid. And I think that the judge is letting them know. And this is what I say. And this is what Frank says. And Frank said four levels. So I'll take four levels.

She goes, I'll go back. And she goes, who's Frank? We go through the whole thing over. And she's like, you're listening to the advice of a mentally. Yes. Yes, I am. You're damn right. That's exactly what I'm doing.

I just got seven years knocked off my sentence. Of course I'm going to. Podcasts are great because they help us make the most out of our routine. We learn about the fall of the Ottoman Empire while we drive, keep up with news while we take the dog for a walk, or turn folding laundry into a comedy show. Make the most out of your time with the PC Insider's World Elite MasterCard, a credit card that can get you unlimited free grocery delivery

and the most PC Optimum points on everyday purchases. The PC Insider's World Elite MasterCard. The card for living unlimited. Conditions apply to all benefits. Visit PCFinancial.ca for details. Listen to him. So I got Harvard here telling me you don't have a prayer. I've got batshit crazy saying let's run this. Four levels, baby.

So she goes back. She comes back. She says, this takes six months. Maybe four months comes back she says and this takes by this takes six months not maybe four months and she says listen two levels they'll go two levels i said okay two levels uh no frank said four levels and she says well did you tell frank this did you we're going i want frank in here immediately one level is 30 months right no no by this point one level is only like 21 months okay so where are we where are we at what do you have left at this point how much time i've got seven years seven years okay so they're saying we'll kick two basically we'll kick two off

right so and so we go back and forth back and forth and and i kept i said look you let them know that i want and by the way, we're at this point, we're ordering Freedom of Information Acts. We're asking the judge to give us like discovery. We're like all this. Keep in mind, I also know that that no discovery was ever compiled for Freedom of Information Act from the FBI. And it's like over 100, 200,000 pages. So they would and they're yelling, saying if the FBI has to file, this will take hundreds of hours for them to compile this. Well, that's not my fault. And I said, and we're then telling them we want to have an evidentiary hearing, which is my right. And I

want the FBI agent from Kevin White's case. I want the FBI agents. We got like 10 people and I have the right to ask. So they're like, what are you going to turn this into a circus? And I go, absolutely. We'll drag this fucker out. Like, you have to give me the one level just to file it. Yeah. So, oh, I'm sorry. That's not true.

They already had filed the one level. Okay. They'd already filed one. We asked them to stop. So you'd have to amend it or it was stayed. Okay. Because he never ruled on it. Okay. So what ends up happening is we go back and forth, back and forth. And so one day I'm on the phone. I call Leanne, my new lawyer. And I said, Leanne,

what's going on? And she said, okay. She said, I just talked to him. She said, they're willing to, it's one of two things. You either take three levels or you go, we're going back to court. I said, I'll take the three levels. So that's 63 months. Well, first what she said was, she goes, we'll take, we'll take three levels. She said, it's three levels. Or she said, or she said, you go back to court. So I guess where I told them we would go back to court because I said, no, no, no, no, no, no. I said, I'll take the three levels. And she goes, well, you said, you said you wouldn't take less than four. I said i said frank said to tell you to go for not to take less than four i just got me up to three i said we were all frank said we were always good with three

i said three levels i said basically we have just enough time to put me in for a fucking halfway house i get a year halfway house like and she's like – and I said, yeah, yeah, yeah. We're good. We're good. Let's go three levels. So it's – That's over five years off your sentence. It's five years.

Yeah. So Frank Amadeo got me 12 years knocked off my sentence. Wow. So it went from 26 and four down to 14 and four, and you had already done one before you got in there. So, yeah, I've got maybe two and a half or three years left so it's really it's almost three years left three years left but wow but with a halfway house it would have been no it was less than that it was it was like two years off yeah no that's a year off the halfway house here so i ended up going into RDAP just to stay in the institution.

So, yeah. So it was – that was – the thing about Amadeo is that if I even think about what he did for me, like there's no fucking way. Like I joke about him and I fuck with – and I joke about it. And it's true. Listen, he's batshit crazy. Like there's no doubt. Like I mean even he'll laugh about it but bro i'd be in prison right now i had my out date was 2030 you know and and and i wouldn't even go to this guy i thought he was so fucking insane and he just like he paid for everything no cox i got that no no i'll pay for the the typists i'll pay for like he had guys that he had trained

just to do divorces he had guys that were trained just to do certain things. And he handled 2255s and 2251s and 2255s. So he handled those, but he had guys specially trained to do research on certain things, to type up motions, to he had all these specialty people. He was running a midsize law firm. And he had guys that were essentially like lawyers. He had my buddy Pete. He called them associates. Like he said, well, you know, these are my four associates. These are my, he had paralegals, associates, typists, which are essentially secretaries. It was an insane fucking operation. And then I get out of prison. When I eventually get out of prison, he got 22 years. He'd been down, I think he did seven.

Oh, so he got 15 off his own. He's out of prison. He's in Orlando right now. He started buying fucking companies and rebuilding them. He's doing the whole thing all over again. Everybody's like, you're going to go back to prison? You're going to end up getting yourself back in prison. They threw him back in they threw him back in prison too by the way when they threw him back in prison about a year and a half ago he was in prison for about six months and he got himself

back out of prison they violated his probation for no reason they violated they said that he was fascinating he's listen i i'm telling you difficult to deal with. But yes, absolutely. You know what, though? That goes to show you, like, obviously he has some severe mental problems, like some health problems. Like, that's literally documented. I mean, he's... Weren't they? But a couple things here. Yeah. Number one, it does go to show you that, and I'm not excusing the stuff the guy has done.

Like, you know, it's really fucked up but you know it goes to show you that you can find humanity in some interesting places because clearly like this guy wanted to be but like perhaps like in his life he wanted to do the right thing and his mind stopped him from always doing the right thing and he had enough power and smarts that when he did the wrong thing it was really fucking bad but then when he's got nothing else to do he could sit there and say fuck everyone and he can fill his commissary with all the money he wants but he takes the time and helps guys like you know it's very cool to see that oh yeah he's he's and he would get so indignant and so angry and so offended and upset at at like the government do they can't do this and then he then he i'm gonna make them bow down in dc fight for the next year and a half and knock six years off your sentence

and get nothing for it no nothing for it but listen they they you know um uh pete called him you know everybody well not every almost everybody called him the emperor and you would see he's he would walk he'd have two or three guys behind him holding his stuff he's it's it was almost it's comical if he wasn't a movie he wasn't so fucking effective exactly like it'd be comical if he wasn't walking people out. Exactly. It'd be cool. If he wasn't walking people out of prison, you'd think, oh, look at this silly little guy. No. It's not silly.

He's walking around. He'd be walking around and he'd walk around and do this. He would – Like the Kanye West like this where he moves his fingers and they spread? No, no, no. Like people would go – you'd walk by and you'd go, emperor, and he'd go, emperor, how are you? Just like a little, how are you? Like the white Kim Jong-un. Yeah, exactly.

How are you? And they'd go, Frank, can I talk to you? Frank, can I talk to you? Yeah, what's up? Okay. No, listen. Tuesday. Tuesday at 7 o'clock.

Heart stop at 7. Tuesday at 7. We all knew cases Tuesday at 7. Bring your indictment. Bring your this. And you're like, guys would be lining up. And then what's so funny too, this used to crack us up. He was on the second level of the building, right?

So when you walk out, it's like a – it's probably a pad that's about three times the size of this table, right? Like actually about the size of this room. So you walk out and there's a stairway that goes all the way down. So you walk out the double doors, that upper level of the prison. You walk over and you can look out over the whole compound. But right underneath, roughly underneath him and to the side are areas where people sit. And Frank would walk out and he'd look out over his people. And he'd sit there and people would say frank frank

it's not quite a it wasn't quite that but it was how are you and he would look at we used to say look it's frank looking out over the masses like he had it was it was like mussolini or you know looking out over the you know el duche you It was hilarious. And the funniest thing was is – so I'll tell you one more thing. And he had – so he used to give you a speech when he was going to do your case. He'd say, listen, let me explain something. He'd go, I'm the pilot. You're just a passenger. I'm flying the plane.

You understand? I understand. It's your plane. But I'm flying the plane. You understand? I understand. It's your plane. But I'm flying the plane. Don't tell me how to fly the plane. Do you understand? Or you can get somebody else. So that's where this is.

Or he's like, or I will throw you out of the plane. I'll give you all your stuff back and throw you right out of the plane. And you're like, I don't know if he's serious, but I'm also like a drug dealer and I don't know enough about the law. So if this is – and he's walking people out. So of course, the problem was you get into the law and then guys would come up to him. They go, Frank, Frank, do you see the new Johnson case? Johnson versus whatever. I have a gun charge.

You go, no, no, no. That's for a career criminal enhancement that you don't have because of this and this and this you go yeah but uh paul so and so got in and and he he had he got no this doesn't listen listen listen and he'd sit there and he starts getting you know and you don't know enough to understand it doesn't apply to you and he'd get a little bit frustrated and he's busy and he would sit there and next thing you know, he would go manic on you. And he would just, you know, I'm going to – I will give you all of your legal work back. You can have your buddy Paulie do it. And he would – so getting thrown out of the airplane, my friend Donovan said, bro, like Frank threw this guy – he threw this guy out of the plane.

And then maybe a couple days later he goes, bro, you don't understand. He threw this guy out of the plane. He goes, he didn't throw him out of the plane, bro. He threw him out of the plane into the turbine. He hit the fucking engine. He turbined him. And so it became Frank's about to turbine this dude. And it was getting turbined.

And Frank would go on a rampage and we'd be like, oh, shit. Frank's going to turbine this dude. And it was getting turbined. And Frank would go on a rampage and we'd be like, oh shit, Frank's going to turbine this dude. Frank's going to turbine this dude. And next thing you know, he'd go, I will, what would he say?

I will anthrax your entire village. And, and the guy would be like, I'm from Palm Beach, Palm Beach then. And I will. And he just, and then he'd calm down and he'd go, I'm giving you all your legal word.

Listen, you would see these guys who were like tough gangster kind of – no, no, no, Frank, I'm so sorry. I'm going to go freak out. Please don't do it. I mean they're practically on their knees begging him. If you say one more word to me, Frank, I won't say anything else. I won't say anything else. I mean it was pathetic. And he's gotten all the leverage.

Yeah. He's the guy. It was great. it was great it was great he wasn't there something though with his case that i don't know if it was you uncovered it with the foia stuff but somebody figured out that the government was drugging him and so he actually figured out it was that was a given. It was a gift. What do you mean it was a given? It's it's in it's it's in the all the transcripts. He lists everything in front of the judge, all the drugs he's taking. We're like Thorazine and this drug.

He lists all these drugs. And they're like, well, do you feel you you're competent enough to move to move forward? And he's like, I feel I have an understanding of what's going on with the i mean you know he's drool running drools running out of his out of his side of his fucking cheek he didn't know what's going on he's barely cohesive um what am i trying to say cognitive of what cognitive of what's going on right yeah he barely copped up on so much shit and and yeah they convinced him to take a plea thinking he's going to get a year or two. And they end up giving him like 22 years.

Now, you also met – you had said this a little bit earlier, but in writing his book, that's when you met Bustamante. Yeah. And we've told the story now by – I think we're filming this like right before the episode's going to come out with me jim danny and bustamante down from when we were on danny jones podcast but we told it on there that you were the original guy who found bustamante and convinced danny to bring him on but how did you was bustamante like intimately aware of his case is that how you got in touch with him or just because he was a cia expert you wanted to know some recon on things i had a guy who contacted me and he ran a podcast called uh like kilo 23 or 23 kilo okay and um he's like a security expert and he also runs a channel and he's interviewed

a few former CIA guys, a couple of ex KGB guys and, you know, different, different type of security experts. And he contacted me and said, it's funny. I'd like to interview you. I haven't, he's like, like, I don't have my subscribers where I want and I want to get a little bit more content, but I'd love to interview you. Would you be interviewed? I said, absolutely. No problem. Well, when I started writing Frank's book, I'd already written a synopsis of his story, which was, I don't know, 15 pages long.

So I'd already written that, and I wanted to expand it into a full-length book because keep in mind, just doing the research on Frank's case, I'd read all his transcripts and there was so much good stuff that didn't make it into the synopsis that I really felt like it would take nothing to blow this up to 40 or 50,000 words, which isn't even a big book. It's a small book. That's not even 300 words. It's like 200 words. So I said, I want to do this but i thought you know

what i would love to do is get some kind of a cs former cia person or cia you're not gonna get somebody in the cia but somebody allegedly right somebody former cia or retired cia and have them kind of like read even if and i really kind of expected them to read through and say like this couldn't have happened or this wouldn't have happened that way or – and that's fine. I don't have a problem with you disagreeing with Frank's narrative or what Frank's saying happened. But because Frank had talked about being approached by the CIA, he actually tested for the CIA. He was offered a job by the CIA. And he says- When he was younger? Yeah, when he was in college, in university, which is funny because Bustamante said that's

back then, it was very common for the CIA to try and recruit from people with law degrees. Where was he in school again? Do you remember? Yeah, it was in Atlanta. It was- Interesting. I forget the name of it. The word on the street, I mean, I don't know. But when you talk to some of the CIA guys, apparently like the heaviest place when they do that historically, when they're looking at college recruits is on the Ivy Leagues.

They look at like Yale. They look at Harvard. They look at Dartmouth. Interesting. Was it Ivy League? But he is smart. And he is. Yeah.

OK. Interesting. It wasn't Ivy League. But he is smart and he is – yeah. Okay. So – and then later in life, there were things that happened that Frank had said he was approached by the CIA. This was during the Congo, the coup in the Congo that they attempted. That Frank attempted. That Frank attempted. That Frank will say it wasn't a coup. We were just backed a political candidate. And now – and the Congolese say it was't a coup. We were just back to political candidate. And now and the Congolese say it was an armed coup. And Frank says they didn't have guns. And it's like, you know, Frank, I feel like there were 32 guys that got arrested here, another 30 or so here. And I feel like they

weren't just walking around without guns. You also hired from south africa and from nigeria that were also part of your security detail and i'm going to say that south africa is kind in nigeria kind of known for private security and they carry guns can we can we delve into that a little bit just because i've heard the high level on this but and you touched on it earlier just like the broad strokes. But how exactly did he first get into the Congo and what was going on that made him think, oh, I can hire this team of 32. We're going to back a political candidate, and then we're going to take over the military. Inexhaustible amount of money from the federal government that he'd stolen is probably why he thought he could do it. Right, the $180 million.

Right. But that's not like – I mean, that's a lot of money. No, that's not a lot. First of all, the problem with the Congo is this. The current president at that time was the son of the previous president. And like Bustamante will tell you, like in South America, in Africa – Collegiate culture type shit. You don't get there because you're charismatic and smart.

You get there because you're cunning and brutal. Yes. And so these were brutal people. So the number one candidate is the current president who was running for – and keep in mind that NATO was helping maintain kind of the peace, right, for the elections, the free elections. So one, we've got the president, and two, we've got a general who's not the kind of general that we think of here. Like he's got his own private, his own army, and it's a government-run army. Yeah. But it's not exactly like the president can fire him. They're very loyal to him. It's like if the

president fired him, he might be like, I don't think so. Maybe I'll just take over. So it's touchy. But he's also running for president. So there was a Congolese-born citizen who went to the United States and became a doctor. So he's educated in the United States, but he's Congolese. He's born in the Congo. So Frank, he comes to Frank and says, I'm interested in getting security because Frank owned a private security company that was run by a former Secret Service agent,

the head of the Secret Service agent detail for George Bush Sr. And he says, I need security. And Frank, after talking to him, said, what if we backed you also? He said, all I want you to do is if we back you is to run your – we'll run your campaign. And then, of course, they ended up saying that they worked out a deal. We'll provide this. We'll do this.

You do this. You give us the rights to this. We do this for you. Back and forth. He basically wanted to hire Congolese. There's a tribe, one of the tribes in Congo that he wanted to hire because they're kind of disenfranchised, wanted to hire them as a private militia. So like a private military that would be for that Frank would be run by Frank. So now you don't necessarily have the issue. You don't necessarily have the issue with the generals that don't necessarily listen to you, right?

No. So, but he would do that because they would have rights to the minerals and, you know, all of these. Ah, there it is. Right. Well, obviously, because it's got the highest concentration in the world of, like, zinc, gold, diamonds, like all these. But you can't get to them because they've been fighting for 50 years. Yeah. So what ends up happening is Frank. So Frank goes in there. His candidate in the first couple months is number, I want to say 30, 32, 33 out of all

the candidates. He's like last. In six months, he goes from last to number three. Billboards everywhere. He's selling out. He's selling out arenas. There's advertising everywhere. There's just a ton of money being dumped.

And so what do they do? They swoop in one day. They arrest all of these guys, the political guys. They pull his guys off the plane. Like two of the guys are getting on a plane. They pull them off the plane. The Congolese government arrest them. No, no.

The military that's – so the guy that's the second – the candidate that's in second place is a general. He has his troops go in and arrest all these guys they bring them there periodically they would bring them outside and do a mock execution for the cameras i've got the whole video it's called nine days in the congo yeah it's great um amazing so uh and then when did the cia get involved with him well i mean so that so it takes nine days for him to get these guys back obviously his candidate is flipped out like he never ends up running i think he gets he gets he takes like third or fourth or fifth um yeah there it is we got the video on the screen here nine days in the congo all right continue sorry oh look at that you got

to pay for premium what do you think i have premium that's his computer that's why okay so go ahead um what ends up happening is he gets back and he starts to he's got like he's got like a private a private um security forces right well the private security forces are also guarding convoys in Afghanistan. So you drop off seeds for the farmers and the army doesn't have time to – so he does it. They guard whatever, embassies or whatever they do, whatever the private people do. Well, what happens is he ends up getting approached by somebody. Well, he gets approached by a guy. He's approached a couple of times.

Eventually, he ends up getting approached by it's a little bit, you know, convoluted, but he ends up getting approached by a guy that says that they want him – they like what he was doing in the Congo. I like where your head's at. I love where you're at. I like where your head's at in the Congo, Frank. Respect. Right. And we have an issue in Tajikistan, which is this tiny little country. It is.

It's ridiculous. We have this problem in Kazakhstan, and we want – Kazakhstan. Basically, what would it take if we could essentially have the military back off and all you basically have to do is take the capital? You have to basically take this one city. It's like you go into Washington. This isn't a well-structured system. You can cut the head off the snake and everybody falls into place. And basically they're saying, look, if you go in and do this – and so he's kind of in negotiations. And he also at one point was approached by the CIA.

Here's what killed me. So I got this from another guy like frank didn't tell me this because there's sometimes i would push the envelope and frank would say like i can't talk about that so i got this through a friend of his and he said he was approached at Disney World. Oh. No, no, it wasn't Disney. It was either Disney or Epcot, I think. Same shit. But the point is that I thought this is the funniest fucking thing I've ever heard, right? Like you're going to Epcot and you're meeting with CIA agents. But when I talked to Bustamante, he's like, it's not bad. He's like, think about it.

There's a ton of people around. You have to go through security. You know you're okay. There's so many people there. And I'm like, you would think you wouldn't want to meet where there's nobody. He's like, no. You never get seen again if you do that. Frank ends up getting arrested before any of this other stuff falls, this stuff happens, right?

There's several things. He went to NATO. He backed the NATO summit at Latvia and Riga. Like his little, his symbol is when you look, they list all the people that backed them, that paid his companies on there. So, I mean, you know, it's like, there's all these things, you know, you read the transcripts and the judge is like, he, what? Like, what do you mean he met with president Bush? Don't they screen these people? Like, this is the president. This is the, you know, he's like, how? He's a felon.

How did he? Anyway, what ends up happening is he ends up getting arrested. But I wanted somebody to look at this stuff that I thought was so insane. Like, there's just no way this is what happens. And so I contacted the guy, Kilo 23. And I said, I need to talk to a CIA guy. Do you have one? He's like, I got three of them. I said, OK.

I said, I need somebody that's going to just basically would be willing to probably read a manuscript and give me their opinion of different parts of the manuscript so that I can get somebody that kind of lends validity to this or just strikes it down as being pure insanity. Like, I'm okay if he said, this guy's crazy. That's fine. I'm okay with that. But that's not what Bustamante said. There was one very, very few times that he said, this seems like not the way that I would think it would happen. It's not that it couldn't happen this

way i believe that this is more like this would happen but 90 of the stuff was like absolutely i believe that's that's very possible absolutely 90 you if you read it and bustamante is just you know super smart yeah great and he talks about like the mental issues that CIA agents have and that like, you know, that they have, you know, alpha, you know, you get a bunch of same thing, FBI, you get a bunch of alpha guys together, you know, that so you've got all these issues, you have personality defects. But like, I'm sure, you know, you've heard me say this before. It's like it's like saying, OK, well, why would anybody follow a narcissist? You follow a narcissist because he's confident. He's willing to push the truth, maybe even lie. He's willing to be aggressive.

He's willing to fake his way through it. You know what I'm saying? Like he's the guy that gets things done. People don't like him. He's not super, you know, he doesn't – he hurts your feelings. He's bullish. He pushes. Compartmentalized big time.

But that's the guy that gets it done. Absolutely. At the end of the day, you probably don't want to have a relationship with this person. But he probably will turn your small company into a billion-dollar company or he'll end up in prison. Yep. Fair enough. Right. And that was what Bustamante was saying.

He's like, yeah, this is what happens. This is what these guys do. This is what happens. And Frank was clearly on his way. And had one or two things gone his way, he may very well be in charge of five or six different countries in Africa right now. You don't know. And here's the thing.

It's not even unrealistic. What was the name of the british guy that owned a huge security firm that was taking over countries in africa he ended up getting arrested can we look that up british guy africa security firm right let's see what that is he launched like he took over one country and launched a coup against another country and ended up going to prison i don't know if i know this story mark shuttleworth no that's not i would i'll recognize the name wait wait uk security firm gs4 under fire over no that's not it no this would have been back in the 90s i think like he literally saw there was a there was a there was a coup and they – this – like the rebels had taken over –

Cecil Rhodes? No, an oil field. And this guy, he took his forces, went in and took the oil field back over. It ends up taking over the whole country. Oh. It ends up getting overthrown, of course, and he – it's a whole thing. But he ends up going to prison. Who's this guy?

Simon Mann? That's Simon Mann. That's simon that's simon man all right click that click that i'd remember it simon man sandhurst guy simon man is a british mercenary and former officer in the sas he trained to be an officer at sandhurst and was commissioned into the scots guards he later became a member of the sas on leaving the military he co-founded sandline international with fellow ex-scots guards colonel tim spicer in 1996 sandline operated mostly in angola and sierra leone but a contact with the gut but a contract with the government of papua new guinea attracted a significant amount of negative publicity and which became known as the sandline affair on march 7 2004 man is alleged to have led the 2004 equatorial guinea coup d'etat attempt he was arrested by zimbabwean police in harare airport along with 64 other mercenaries he eventually served three years of a four year prison sentence in zimbabwe that's got to be tough

out there and less than two years of a 34 years and four months sentence in equatorial guinea wow a whole different fucking wild west out there like that's the kind of that's that's frank that's what frank is doing and that's the kind of thing that is happening so it's not like it's out of the realm of possibility no that's crazy bro yeah you end up having 3,000, 4,000 of your own guys. I mean look at these guys like Blackwater and – it's insane. Yeah, and Blackwater, the – what's his name? Eric Prince, the head of Blackwater. He actually – this wasn't supposed to happen.

It was like against protocol, but he got exposed as – am I allowed to say that? We might have to cut that. I don't know if that's – that is public info. He went to – I didn't say what it was yet, so that's cool. We'll keep that. Friends of Epstein? No, no.

I mean I don't know. That's not what I was getting at. Sure. But no, there's something – yeah, let's get off that let's get back to you so anyway sometimes when you're in here and you're like wait a second and it's things start to be like is that something that's not on air it's it's tough sometimes i do my best with it real quick to all my discord people out there the julian dory discord is officially live. I put the link down in the description below. So go hit that.

Join the community and say what's up. There's all kinds of features in there, and I look forward to hearing from you guys. Let's get it popping. But getting back to what you were doing. What I want to understand is there were two main stories there that got you like – what was it? Like three or four levels and then three levels again. You get effectively 12 years off your prison sentence, the seven and the five. But were there other things along the way that you're like snitching on to get an advantage in prison?

Or that was it? No. Like you know what's so funny? It's like honestly like let's say this guy has got a cell phone. Man, I'm not getting any time. I don't care what you do with your cell phone. Like, I'm not getting any time off for a cell phone. So-and-so's got drugs.

I don't care about drugs. I'm not getting time. Like, listen, I'm very specific on what I think will get me time off. I wasn't even going to say anything about Wilson. I literally, it was such a fluke. If my lawyer hadn't said anything going on, I would have been like, okay, well, yeah, send me the stuff, whatever, click. That would have been it. I hadn't even talked to Frank about it. Nothing. It wasn't until,

if that agent hadn't called, as soon as that agent called, I was like, I went and told Frank, Frank, this is what's going on. This is happened what and he goes document everything he said we'll get you something he said if they he goes if i said they're never going to indict this guy he's already got 19 and a half years he's he's it's done it's done he said you don't know he said if you get any money back and they admit that you got money back he said i'll get you something off and And I thought, damn. But here's the thing. You know, Wilson, you know, COVID happened, right? He got out of prison. He's out.

Oh, yeah, because he's older. Yeah, he's older. He got out. He ended up doing like five or six years, I think. That's nuts. On a 20-year sentence. That's crazy. So did your friend, the judge.

Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I hadn't. but when you mentioned that to me that you knew him in there i ended up having in marsha levick for episode 131 i think it was you did you you interviewed him no i had in marsha who's the the woman who blew the whole thing wide open that whole case open yeah yeah i was like yeah my friend matt cox was in prison the guy was on his legal team yeah he was great was great. Crazy dude. Yeah, he was. That's what he and Frank, the judge, they used to talk all the time about what do you think about this? What do you think about that? Especially the lawsuit with Ephraim Deverelli.

We'd go and talk to the judge. Judge couldn't stand Ephraim. Nobody could stand. All right. That's what we're going to get to next. But Jim, just so you know, we're referring to the kids for cash case. Yeah. That judge, Conahan was in there with him and he got out of prison during he was supposed to do like what was it like 18 19 years in prison but he got out during covid right how much did amadeus i mean how much did frank did uh um wilson do oh i gotta tell you one more thing about wilson okay go for it um i don't know if we're gonna find that out ron wilson moved to halfway house after serving time look how much time to. How much time? Up to. How much? Wilson will be released in December 2029 and be placed on probation. So he was sentenced to 19 years.

So he got out in like 2020. So he did like 9, 10 years, I'm going to guess. Just based on math. And when did you say he got arrested? In 2012, Wilson was sentenced to 20 years in federal prison for his Ponzi scheme. So 2012 minus 2019, 20 years. Seven years. It was COVID.

Eight years. Same thing. COVID was 2020. I thought it just said he'd be in halfway house in 2019. It said 2029, but this is before COVID. So he ended up doing eight years. Right. Okay.

So he did eight years on a 20-year sentence. So here's the other thing about him. Listen to this. So one day I'm sitting there after my sentence gets reduced. My sentence gets, they knock five years off my sentence. I'm waiting. I got a couple of years, right? Like a year and a half to go before I go to halfway house, depending on how much I really could have had a year. If they gave me a year halfway house, they didn't. They gave me, they ended up giving me seven months halfway house, but I thought I was going to get a year. So I felt like I me a year halfway house. They didn't. They gave me they ended up giving me seven months halfway house. But I thought I was going to get a year.

So I felt like I had a year left. So I'm sitting there one day in my, you know, in my cell waiting for waiting for a count. Right. Four o'clock count. So I'm sitting there. And when you new guys come to the prison, they have like they wear their like their bus clothes. Right. They give you like, you know, khakis and like a shitty shirt, a T-shirt. And they always get you into.

So no matter when you show up during the day, they have they basically have to have you in the unit to be counted. So you might get there at three o'clock and they'll hold count to try and rush you over and get you into the unit to be counted. So you might get there at three o'clock and they'll hold count to try and rush you over and get you into the unit. So I'm standing there one day in my cell. And this black guy is directly across the street. He's four feet away. He's directly across the hallway from me standing there. And he just got there and I'm standing there and he goes, and everybody's quiet during count, right? Like like you walk in if they were walking around they hear somebody talk they're like who's that who's talking they'll go fucking nuts and get you get over here you know it's just oh shit so everybody just stands there but they haven't gotten to my

unit yet they're still counting the other unit so you're sitting there people are maybe whispering and i'm sitting there and the black guy looks over at me. He goes, hey, bro. And I go, yeah, what's up? And he says, you know a guy named Matt Cox? Now, keep in mind, that's not that. There's 2,000 people there. But if 60% of them are black and there's less than 10% are white, it's not that hard. You ask three white guys, they're going to know. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Cox is in that cell over there, or he's two units over. So I'm standing there. He goes, you know the guy named Matt Cox? And I go, yeah. And he looked at me and said, all right, I need to talk to him. And I went, I said, I'm Matt Cox. He's, nah, man. I pull out my ID, and he goes, ha, ha, ha.

He goes, okay, cool, all right. Looks around, he goes, I was locked up with ron wilson and i went okay okay and now i'm kind of you're trying to slide away you're not sure what's going down right and he sat there and he went uh i was in yeah i was in south carolina he was when he got his discovery and in his discovery were a hundred emails between me and the secret service and i went okay he said um yeah he got sentenced you know he got like six months i said i heard that and he goes um he gave me a message for you and i thought this doesn't sound good i feel like this could go all kinds of bad but also this wasn't a super big guy right but he was bigger than me it's not hard to do yeah i know so i'm thinking he's not going to beat me too bad i'm definitely getting moved i'm going to shoe for three months.

They'll put me on a bus. I'm not going to see my mom again. And I'm like, okay. And I'm really, at this point, I'm waiting for the, he said, he said to tell you that he doesn't have any hard feelings. He'd have done the same thing and to let you know that he's at peace and he's found Jesus. There you go. I like that.

He was a fairly religious guy before, by the way. Yeah, that's pretty cool, man. It's not like the Jesus thing was out of the realm of possibility. He's reef-landing him. Yeah. And I sat there. He fell off a little bit. And what's so funny is I wasn't super concerned, right?

But I looked at him and I went, is this going to be an issue? And he looked at me. He said, oh. He goes, nah, bro. That's not going to be an issue. He said, like, I got like, I think he got like, whatever he said, eight years. He was like, I got eight years. He said, I've been down about a year.

He said, but I'm going to be out of here real real soon if you know what i'm saying and i said ah i said yeah yeah you keep that between you and me and we'll be good right i said yep we're good he said all right he said yeah all right i said all right that was it that was it like so you worked out for you i would would love, like, I'm waiting until I get off probation and I will contact Wilson. No doubt in my mind I will contact him. Listen, this guy, like, he may be upset, but you know what he also may do? This is the kind of guy he is. He's also the kind of guy that would say, yeah, I'll do a podcast.

And he's that guy. You're like, are you serious? I got out a couple years later. It's fine. I'd have done the same podcast. He's that guy. You're like, are you serious? I got out a couple of years later. It's fun. I'd have done the same thing. He's that guy. As your security consultant, I recommend we're not going to do that. Is that right?

He's insane. But I don't want to do it while I'm on probation. Because one phone call to my probation officer and I could have an issue. Jim, do you got to go? You're saying? Go for it. All right, let's stop for one minute. We'll pick back up. All right. Deverelli. We've been waiting to get there all day. So this is the War Dogs guy. As

you said, Jonah Hill played him in the movie. You wrote the book Once a Gunrunner. That's what it's called, right? Right. So when did he get into prison in Coleman? When did you meet him? Like 2013, 2012, somewhere in there? Somewhere around there, yeah. Okay. Now, were you familiar? Had you heard his story on the news or something in prison at all? No, I had read his – I read his – I read an article in Rolling Stone magazine.

By this point, I was was writing basically was finishing my book and i kind of decided i wanted to start writing true crime stories and somebody just came so guys are giving them to me all the time so some guy comes up to me and says hey cox you ought to check this out and just hands me the rolling stone article arms and the dudes and i was like um okay so i read the article and i thought oh man that's really interesting and then I didn't think anything about it and probably a couple weeks later I was standing in line waiting for Chow and the same guy goes

hey bro he's like you know that guy that in the Rolling Stone article I was like right he's right there I said no and he was like really like overweight and I go that guy and he goes and he was like yeah that's him and i was just like holy shit like so i was like wow are you sure he's like absolutely i know he's

in so and so he got here a couple days ago and i was like okay so probably a few days later and i remember that guy said bro you ought to talk to him about writing a story i was like you know that guy's like a multi-millionaire and and he can write his own story and he'll probably already have someone writing a story. So anyway, he's like, you know, you ought to ask. I was like, yeah. So a couple of days later, I saw him on the rec yard and I went up to him and I said, Hey, you know, um, are you interested in having someone write your story or are you, are you having someone write your story? And he was like, you you know what do you mean i was like yeah i said well if you if you're interested i said like i could help you write an

outline like i write stories and i'm finishing my manuscript right now i've got a literary agent and he was like um i'll think about it i'll think about it because he he basically said he not basically he specifically said that he was bipolar ad, and he said there's no way I could sit down long enough to write a story. I said, well, I could help you write an outline, and then you could give it to somebody on the street, like a real writer. And he was like, I'll think about it. And I was like, okay. And months went by. Six months went by.

And he would see me every once a week, maybe twice a week. And he'd see me and you're walking, you look up and you glance, you make eye contact. Sometimes we just walk right by each other because there's lots of people walking around. And I look up and we make eye contact. He goes, still thinking about it.

Like, all right. But I had blown it off. And then one day he was walking across the compound and he saw me he's like hey cox cox and i go yeah what's up he said you know that rolling stone article keep in mind the rolling stone article was written from david packhouse's perspective not devroli's so he goes hey bro he said you know that uh the rolling stone article i said right he said he got it got sold and i said what do you mean he said it it got purchased he said todd phillips purchased it i go who and he goes todd phillips he was the guy that

does the hangover movies and i was like oh okay he said yeah they're gonna make a movie about my life even though it wasn't written about his life he's definitely the main most interesting person yes and he says yeah they were make a movie about my life that's pretty cool right and i went the guys that did the hangover movies are gonna make a movie about you he's right and i went oh wow bro i said you seem like a sharp guy you know and he's like right, do you understand? Have you seen those movies? And he goes, yeah. And I said, they're going to make a movie called Dude, Where's My Hand Grenade? And you're going to be a laughingstock.

I said, you're going to be synonymous with like Jeff Spicoli from Fast Times at Ridgemont High. Like you're going to be a joke. I said, and you could have gotten the drop on them just by writing an outline, having someone write a short memoir on you, 200, 300 pages. You could, people would rather see a movie about you based on your memoir than an article from someone else who's talking about you i said i don't know if you read the article but i said he didn't make you sound all that great and he was like bro when can we start you can help me i was like got to the ego there you go

right well and i said you're gonna have to get out of prison like you're gonna get out of prison and and what's gonna happen like you're gonna get out of prison. You're going to get out of prison. And what's going to happen? You're going to get out of prison and people are going to look at you and there's going to be – if there's a movie even made, which I didn't know there would be a movie made. But they did buy it. They optioned lots of stuff and never make it. So I was like if they make a movie, like now people – you'll say your name and people are going to be like, oh, just like the guy on that movie. Like you're a – oh, yeah, that's actually me. Really?

They're going to paint you as being a lying, cheating bastard. Like who wants to do business with you? And he was like, damn, bro. Yeah, we need to meet. So it still took a month or so. We end up meeting. We write an outline over the course of a few months. And then while we were writing the outline, he said, hey, can you can I read your book?

I said, sure. So I gave him my manuscript and he read it and he came back and he was like, bro, this is amazing. This is like one of the best things I've ever read. And I was like, oh, well, I appreciate that. He goes, can you write my book? How would you write, by the way, in there? You had access to a computer? No.

Like you write on a legal pad. Like I'd write all handwriting scratch it out write it again write it and then i would go and i would type it out on the the it's kind of like an email system but it's not um so you type it out and you could keep a draft so then i was able to alter the drafts and then when it was in good enough shape i could email it to somebody on the outside and they put it in a Word document. Got it. But you can imagine how cumbersome that is. Oh, yeah.

There's no word processing function. So I would print it out and let people read it and say, hey, man, you misspelled this word, this, that. And that was like you do that from a computer in the library? No, it was in the unit. But it was in the unit. Okay. But it's still like it's not like you have access to the internet or even to email someone. You're basically emailing a site

that they then have to check to get it. And then they email you, leave you an email of that site. Then you have to check it. You know what I'm saying? Like, it's not like a email. So anyway, yeah. So I did, I let him read it.

He read it. He says, great. Asked me if I would consider writing his memoir. And I said, yeah. I said, I'll – well, first I told him, like, you could get a real writer. He's like, bro, you are a real writer. Like, I'm telling you, this is amazing. And so I was like, yeah, okay.

So, you know, we worked out a deal, and then I introduced him to my literary agent. You already had a literary agent? Yes. When did you get him? After I finished my book and sent off. Like, I just kind of got him. Does that make sense? Okay.

You know, it was like within months, about a month or two before that. Got it. And so, yeah, so I, you i you know introduced into my literary agent and they basically were like you need to hurry up and write the book as quick as possible because he's like i want to be able to try and get a book deal and get our books sold so we can get a film we can get a film made before um before warner brothers and todd phillips gets their film made and so they're like you need to just hurry up and get it made, get it made. Well, Deverell was being transferred to Miami camp to go to the drug program down there.

So we only had like a month or so, month and a half, two months to write the book. But I had a great outline. I'd already written a good outline. So I wrote maybe one third of the book with him. And I remember telling my literary agent, I was like, listen, at one point I was like, listen, this guy has no endearing qualities. Do you understand? And he's like, what do you mean? I said, like, it's hard to try and make him sound like a sympathetic person or even an antihero. I said, he's really just a scoundrel. How quickly did you pick up on that? Not kind of like, you know, that the outline was like stories and feelings and a little here and a little.

But when you really get back into it and really start talking, you like wow it's like you know you even when you tell somebody you try and give them an out like they say something that's horrific and you try and kind of like well you said that because of this and this and this right and he's like nah bro just because of this and you're like so you owed this guy a million dollars. Legitimately, you owed it to him. Right, right. He's like, yeah, but he didn't have nothing writing. So you fucked him. Yeah.

Yeah. And I go, well – and I go, well, why didn't you just pay him? Like you owed him a million, but you made two million. Why didn't you just – you owed him a million. Why didn't you just pay him? He's like, like bro even if this dude gets a fucking lawyer and pays the lawyer 200 000 and i pay a lawyer 200 000 let's say i pay my lawyer half a million i can beat him in court he doesn't have anything in writing i still

make half a million and i'm like he's a shark right i'm like that's that's fucked up bro and he's like you don't understand i'm like no i i understand what you're saying is fucked up you know and and he just he just didn't give a shit you know so uh you know and and so i i told that to my literary agent and he was like, look, get me 300 pages. And he's like, make sure whatever you cover is covers whatever was in the article in Rolling Stone and expand on everything else. I'm like, he's leaving soon. I don't have time to. I ended up saying I had written a book called Stranger Danger about a sex offender who ends up becoming a billionaire by renting out mobile homes, repossessed mobile homes to sex offenders. And it's just – it's kind of – it's super satirical. There you go, Stranger Danger. God, what a name.

You like that picture? That is an almost eerie picture. We're doing the audio right now. So, the audio book right now. So, it's extremely disturbing. Have you ever read any of Chuck, is it Paholacek? You know, the guy who wrote Fight Club? Yes.

I don't think I've read any of his stuff, no. So, he's written great stuff. And I really, if you, the very first, the author's note, I talk about how I'd read everything he'd written up to that point. And I wrote it very much in that style. It's a couple hundred pages, and it's very chop, chop, chop, chop, chop, chop, and just disturbingly dark, dark, disturbingly satirically funny, right? Very disturbing. But I told, and my literary agent had read the book. And I go, I remember I said,

so the main guy, eventually he becomes a sex offender. He doesn't do anything wrong. He just gets framed. But the point is, I go, the main character in Stranger Danger is more sympathetic than Deverelli. And he said, and he sat there. I remember the guy's name was Ross, my literary agent.

He went, you know what? He said, they have a lot in common. Like, what do you mean? They both have these mothers that are all over them right they have this mother this mother that's constantly berating them and following them and yelling at them and calling them out on things and causing probably a right because they also like he starts naming the and there's several similarities and i was like right he said devaroli's leaving pull whatever you can from stranger danger and use it in in uh in his in his story and i was he's like any stories any whatever and i went he said look he said we're gonna write that

it's based on the true story oh anyway and i was like really stretching it though like oh this is fabrication yeah this is crazy and i I was just like, wow. I was like, I mean. I wonder how often this happens. Fuck. I mean, I don't know, but Deverell is leaving. And I was so just excited to be a part of it because Ross was excited about it. And here's the thing.

So while we're having this conversation, Ross and I are having the conversation in the prison visitation room. Deverelli is meeting with his family. And so he leaves his family and comes and sits with us. And so we're all talking. This is like during like the introduction phase. And then we're going back and forth, back and forth. And then we had another meeting. They all came. It was Deverelli and his sister and they come. And we're going back and forth, back and forth. And then we had another meeting. They all came. It was Deverell and his sister, and they come. And we're going back and

forth. And I remember at one point, Ross said, just get enough words so we can have it because we needed to cover everything that was in the Rolling Stone article. We need to get it published as quick as possible. So I need about 300 pages is what he said. About 90,000 words is roughly. 90,000 words. We can publish it, get it published. He was already – at that point, he wasn't talking to Simon Schuster yet. But he's going back and forth.

And I'm like, this is not something I want to do. But Deverell is also leaving. Now he's down to like weeks. And I'm like, okay, okay. I don't know if you've written a book, but you just don't – nobody writes a book in a month or two. No. I wrote that book in three months. I wrote 90,000 words in three months.

Now, were all of the scenes – no. Was one-third of it? Was 25%? I don't know. There was a little here, a little there. I was twisting this, twisting that, making him sound funny, trimming down the more abusive comments that he would make, the more – just really trying to make him look as decent as a human being as possible. Why not – you thought you couldn't sell it if there was nothing sympathetic about him. No, it wasn't that. It was that I wanted to get it done in time so they could publish it. They wanted to publish it before. So right now, Todd Phillips had bought the article, the film rights to the article.

But he hasn't done anything. They're in the middle of talking about writing a script. Like there's no competing project. So they're saying we get a book done, we publish it, and now we have a competing project. Now that stops or slows down Phillips' project. Or if he moves forward, it gives them the right to sue him. Because listen to what they did – listen to what they did. Listen to what they did though.

What they did was this. So Ross is telling me this. He's just telling me get it done, get it done, get it done. I'm like, okay, okay. I'll get it done. I'll get it done. I'll get it done. And he's saying it's based on – like people don't realize like books that – this is actually probably 20 years ago. There's lots of books that were based on the true story, and they fabricated all kinds of stuff.

Catch Me If You Can, a ton of it was fabricated. Well, we found out that that guy is not even like a real fraud. It was a fraud of a fraud. Fraud of a fraud. But even then, the book itself, like, you know, so – but it's based on – there's lots of books that were like that. They were based on, and then that way it gives them a wiggle room. So he was saying based on. Okay, you're going to do based on.

Like, what do I care? Like, I just want to be a part of this whole thing. So – and it also – it's a memoir. This is what Deverelli told me. Like, to me, I'm saying this is what – you know, it's him. I'm just helping him write it. So I have a lot of wiggle room to say, I don't really – didn't really do anything. I don't really have much to do with that.

That's what he told me. Nobody's going to ask me anyway. I'm locked up in prison. Right. So it would be like from Ephraim Devereaux and Matthew Cox or with Matthew Cox or however you want to put it. So I'm like, okay, whatever. So I'm filling stuff in. I'm making funny jokes.

I'm saying stuff. But it still follows the basic timeline. But it also covers everything in that article. So what happens is, because it's very difficult for you to take an article and turn it into a complete movie without fabricating something. There's just not enough words there. Yeah, it's going to happen. Right. So I end up, so this is what Ross is telling me, and they're paying me. You're paying me to do this. So they're paying me. I'm writing. When I say paying me, they're sending me money to get to buy TrueLinks so I can type on the computer. So they're not paying me.

I'm not making money. But they're sending me money in order to be able to type it on the computer. So I was able to work on the computer all the time instead of handwrite because it was much faster that way. So we write. I write, I write, I write. And then eventually one day we're at a meeting and Ross says – Deverelli says, well, when there's competing projects, especially a project like this, he goes, it's not that hard to allege that there was, that they got a hold of the manuscript or they stole the manuscript. And I'm like, but they didn't steal a manuscript. He goes, I understand that,

but some of what they're gonna come up with is definitely going to be covered in our manuscript. He said, and they're using his likeness. Like he starts throwing out all these things that I already know don't really matter because he's a public figure, because he's been arrested, because he's been in articles.

So he doesn't have those rights anymore, but he starts saying all this stuff. And I was like, okay. And I'm kind of thinking no big deal it's none of my business like this is between these two guys i just need to finish this fucking thing and what he ends up saying is devroli says oh sorry sorry devroli says you think we can sue him successfully and ross goes well let me let me tell you something. He said – and I forget how many years ago it was, 10 years earlier. He said about 10 years ago.

He said – he goes, did you ever see the reality TV show The Contender? And it had a boxer in it, which was a famous boxer at the time. And it – I forget his name name can you look up the contender yeah i never saw that yeah it's a boxer he's a famous boxer too what it's a reality tv show but about boxing about boxing but it's a real boxer it's like so not sylvester stallone no the contender tv series right there see it go down yep hit that oh five Sugar Ray Leonard oh I remember this show I don't think it was Sugar Ray yeah no I remember Sugar Ray Leonard having some sort of show like this was it Sugar Ray Leonard I think it was dude

he's been on tv a bunch well I say – we'll say Sugar Ray a little. Anyway, the point is this. So what happens is Ross says, listen. He said, I had a project called that he – I forget what he called it, right? That he had pit – he had gone and he had an agent that he told the agent about the project. And he said that he told the agent about it, but it never went anywhere. Well, then like a year later, the contender came out. But the same agency also – and this is a massive agency in L.A.

It's like one of the biggest ones, right? He said they also represented Sugar Ray Leonard, let's say. I think it was Sugar Ray. Whoever it was. I forget who it was. It says Sugar Ray Leonard. That doesn't sound familiar. I thought it was somebody else.

Either way. Yeah. So he says, yeah, yeah. So he represented Sugar Ray Leonard. Okay. And he goes, and it came out. He said, so Ross ended up suing them, saying that the literary agent had brought the project to Sugar Ray Leonard, and then they did the project. And it was a very similar project. And they ended up settling with him for a fucking ton of money.

A ton of money. So he had this roadmap. So he's saying, this is, this, that was a loose thing. You know, he's like, this, your thing is huge. He's like, like, it's almost impossible, especially if they use your name, which they were going to your name, your likeness. We've got a book. Our book came out before your book.

You have a little tiny article. You wrote this whole thing. So, Deverelli says, listen to Ross. He's sitting there like, Deverelli loves the idea. And I'm sitting there thinking, I thought we were getting a book deal. Like, what are you guys doing? So, Deverelli goes, listen, I got a cousin who lives in Los Angeles. He's, he goes, he goes, he's in the, he goes, he, he said how he said it. He goes, he goes, he's in like the

industry, right? Like the film industry. He goes, well, he thinks he's in the film industry. He's actually a schmuck. And he starts laughing and he goes, but, but, but anyway, uh, so he thinks he's in it. He goes he goes bro he knows all kinds of people all kinds of people he goes i'll bet you he can help us with the manuscript he's i bet he can get it to somebody at warner and i'm thinking why would like i don't really understand so and and this probably when someone's listening this they still don't understand so i didn't understand. And I'm there.

I'm just thinking, write your fuck, write the book, get the book published. You get a piece of a book deal. Maybe these guys option it. I get a piece of the option. Maybe they get it made into a movie or a series. I get a piece of the series. Because let's face it, anything that's made that's turned into a film series, whatever, is all based on some kind of a book. So I'm not even concerned about it, right?

Well, I leave. Maybe a month later, I'm talking to Ross on the phone, and Ross says, you're not going to believe this. cousin knows a guy that is a film that does documentaries and he's partners with a guy named shimmy spear shimmy spear shimmy spira spira shimmy spira shimmy spira is the son of Stephen Spira, one of the presidents of Warner Brothers Studio. And I'm like, okay. And I said, well, what does that mean? He goes, we're going to ask him if he'd like to see the manuscript. I said, oh, okay. So you think he'll talk to his father about it? Or he's like, well, no, it just opens up possibilities okay okay cool well i'm yeah definitely that sounds good right right he's like yeah no definitely things are working out i'm like okay so he has shimmy sign an nda to see the manuscript just in case he wants to make it into

a documentary okay so he gives him the he gives him and his partner the manuscript. They read it. They talk to Ross a couple times on the phone. Eventually, do you want to make a doc? Do you think you can get a doc made? Do we think we can get a film made, maybe a series on Netflix? What are you guys thinking? They ask around.

They ask around. And finally, Shimi's partner is talking to Ross on the phone, and he says Shimi said that Warner Brothers is moving forward with the film. They're rewriting the script that they've written. They're rewriting it because Jonah Hill is going to play Deverelli, And Jonah Hill wants there to be more in the script about Deverelli. So they're rewriting it. And Ross says, how do you know this? And he says, oh, Shimi, his father is Steven Spira. He's one of the presidents of Warner Brothers.

He told him. And he goes, Shimmy, his father is the president of Warner Brothers? And he goes, yeah. He goes, why didn't you tell me that? And he goes, well, it wasn't my place to tell you. I mean, what does it matter? I never would have given you the manuscript if I'd known that you guys were connected to Warner Brothers. Shimmy certainly gave the manuscript to his father. And the guy's like, oh.

And he goes, I can't believe you've done this. And I had you sign an NDA. And by the way, in the NDA, one of the things it talks about is like third parties. Don't give it to anybody. Is there any reason you shouldn't have this? Is there any reason that you could have a conflict of interest? Is there? Is there? Is there? Ross and Devereaux have a direct link knowing that Warner Brothers had seen the manuscript.

Like they can now say, absolutely, we gave it to Shimmy. Shimmy surreptitiously obtained the manuscript for Warner Brothers because that's what it says in the fucking in his lawsuit. Now, here's the funny thing about that. So they set up Warner Brothers. We just set up Warner Brothers. What is Warner Brothers going to do now? He's right. The way it looks in print and he's got he's got these phone calls with these guys.

He's got like it looks like and they contacted him because Deverelli's cousin talked to them and then they contacted Ross. So if Deverelli's cousin doesn't get on the stand and say, yeah, I told them to call him, he's friends with the guy anyway. I call him all the time.

So it really just looks like these guys reached out to him on behalf of probably shimmy's father and asked to see the manuscript ross said here's this nda do you have any is there any conflict of interest do you have any reason that you know no no no no boom we got it we gave it to gave it to my dad they used it to write to rewrite the screenplay which was being rewritten anyway because of joe really looks bad like they set him up. Here's the funny thing about it is

during all of the proceedings, Warner Brothers not one time ever said they didn't see the manuscript. So the truth is they probably did see the manuscript. I don't see how they couldn't have given all that. Walks like a duck, quacks like a duck. It's a fucking

duck. So regardless a fucking duck. So regardless, here's what happens. So – but Ross is telling me this on the phone. Can you believe that? And I'm thinking, but before you even gave it to him, you knew he was the son of Steven Spira. Like you already knew that. But he's saying it to me like it had been months. Yeah, he's trying to like have deniability. Right, but it's like first of all, you said it on a phone that's recorded.

And two, now you're saying this again on the phone. But it's like who are you talking to? Like I really think he forgot that he told me. Does that make sense? Like, we talked a lot and we back and forth. And I think he might have casually mentioned it and just forgot. Anyway, I was like, and I didn't even say anything, bro. Like, I didn't get, I'm not going to get an argument.

I'm not going to say, what are you talking about, bro? I was like, okay, well, what does that mean? He said, yeah, bro, we're suing him. And all I can think of is this guy was representing me on my book. He's not even pitching my book now, by the way. He was going to try and go to Simon & Schuster, and he had talked to Simon & Schuster by this point about Deverelli's book and my book, but now he's like completely just discarded that, not even interested in it.

My book's been put on the back burner. Months and months and months and months have gone by yeah you're also sit and it's unfortunate but you're sitting in prison nothing i can do yeah there's there's you're so limited you have no leverage right so i i i you know then devaroli kind of disappears right like he differently by the way he he had left by now you know he left and went to miami was only like a couple years, right? Yeah, it was like six years. But he didn't do all six, right?

No, no, he did like four, three or four. And just for people, I mean, a lot of people have seen the movie War Dogs. But what's interesting about that case, I mean, Danny did an amazing podcast with David Packhouse, the other guy. They kind of, like,phraim is clearly an awful guy like that's covered i mean that guy's always going to commit some sort of crime but i'm forgetting the details right now i wish i could remember that podcast more fresh but they kind of got a little fucked like they didn't do oh no they they the two of them packhouse and devaroli definitely got screwed over yeah because they didn't i oh no they they the two of them packhouse and devaroli definitely

got screwed over yeah because they didn't i'm not without looking at the laws here they didn't really do anything that their competitors weren't doing as well it just looked weird because they were two you know sub 20 year old guys pulling it off yes yeah it looked very odd you're two 21 22 year old kids that are that are shipping you shipping tens of millions of dollars of ammunition across the country. And doing it well, the problem was that it was Chinese ammunition. Well, not all of it. Very little of it actually. But at some point –

There's some of it. At some point it ended up being Chinese ammunition. That'll do it. And because Deverelli reached out to the army and said, can I ship this? And they said no. And he continued to ship it. He got in trouble. Had he said nothing and just done it?

Because he'd already been doing it. And keep in mind, too, they're using all the ammo. Like the army doesn't give a crap about this being Chinese ammunition. We need it. So they used it. And then they kind of semi-covered it up. You know, Deverelli says it wasn't covered up. He's like, we were repackaging it because it was in these heavy crates,

and we packaged it in plastic bags because the fuel was so fucking expensive. We were already doing that before we even were told not to ship it at all. He's like, but they used all of that, and if we went to trial, they were going to say that we did this so he he really got screwed like you know like you can't arrest someone because they're a scoundrel so as a scoundrel he is a scoundrel but he didn't deserve to go to jail second thing he did was when they were both out on home confinement they were i'm sorry they were both out on pre-trial release and they had like ankle monitors on or whatever no they didn't have ankle monitors on they were just on like probation like while you're waiting to be sentenced

the atf convinced devaroli to leave the jurisdiction and then actually handed him a gun like so they say hey wait what so the atf said listen they they end up having a manufacturer contact devaroli and devaroli was was going to be importing these things that were called like a i forget the name of it but i'm to make up a name. Let's call it a mega pack, right? So it's basically like a – it's a – oh, my God. A clip. It's a clip for like a 9-millimeter that funnels bullets into the gun. So if you pull the trigger, it's like – I mean it just starts firing, right? Like it's a – there's a name for it.

It's like an alpha clip or a mega clip or something. Well, the patent had expired and Deverelli had picked up the patent and had a South Korean country – a South Korean manufacturer that was going to manufacture them. So there was Knight Industries went to Deverelli and said, we're interested in doing this with you. And so he's excited. But really it was the ATF agent who had gone to Deverelli, said that Knight will do this, and convinces Deverelli to leave the jurisdiction. He goes, look, we're going to test it. We're going to test the clip. Oh, I think it's called a beta clip.

Beta, B-E-T-A. So he says, we're going to – and all they wanted to do was like, we're going to manufacture it in South Korea. We just want you to stamp it, Knight, because Knight Industries is huge, right? Oh, one of these? Yes. Son of a – whoa. Yeah. It's a serious clip.

Yeah, I've never seen that before. We'll put that in the corner of the screen. You've actually seen it on James Bond. They used one on James Bond on the last movie. I mean, maybe, but I don't remember it. Well, he didn't. Somebody was firing at him. It's insane, bro. Wow.

Right. But Knight has agreed to stamp their – put their stamp on it. But really, it's all bullshit. It's an ATA agent called him and said, look, I want to help you get this done. And he's like, okay. And he finds out, keep in mind, Deverell, he's on drugs. He's all messed up. So he's susceptible to just not really asking too many questions. What kind of drugs? Just like smoking weed? Like coke, everything. Everything. He's definitely got a drug issue at that time. So he ends up saying, let's go out there. Knight's ready to do

it. They had a meeting. They said, we want to test it. If it tests great, we'll do it. Deverelli's like, oh my God, this is amazing. Let's do it. They go, they test it. They say, it's great. Why don't you come out? We'll fire. We're going to shoot off a couple thousand rounds. We're going to have some fun. We're going to have something to eat, and we're going to sign the contract. So Deverelli's like, yeah, bro, I can't come out. I can't do that. I can't fire. I can't bring a gun.

I can't fire anything. He goes, don't worry about it. Just come out. Bring something. Come on, man. Bring something. He's like, no, you don't understand. I'm on probation.

He's very open about it. The guy says, he's been in the newspaper. They've already had Senate hearings on him and everything. He's just trying to stay out of prison. They've got it negotiated down where they're going to get probation. I mean, they're going to house arrest. And but the ATF is not happy about it. This agent. So the agent says, just come out.

Don't worry about it. Just come out. So Deverelli comes out. Wait, Deverelli comes out. They get there. They meet in a parking lot. Wait, what? And Deverelli goes, okay. This is horrible entrapment. Oh, it's extreme entrapment. This is crazy. I wish Jim was still here to hear this one.

So they hand him the guns. And at one point, the guy says – the guy brings out all the guns and he hands – and so Deverelli said, I'm just standing there. And the guy takes a 9mm and slaps it right in his hand. And he said, I just naturally grabbed it. Like I didn't want to drop it. What am I going to do, drop it? So I grab it and I'm like, fuck, now I'm holding the gun. He goes, and I'm like, and he actually cocks the gun.

And he goes through the whole thing. He cocks it. It's empty. He cocks it. He does the whole check thing. Boom, boom, boom, boom. He's, yeah, it's a nice piece, bro. And he goes, yeah, man.

He said, hey, do me a favor. And Devereaux actually says, you know, he goes, once a gunrunner, always a gunrunner. And he kind of jokes around with the guy, and the guy's like, right, right? There's the title. Yeah. And then he takes the gun, puts it down, and says, hey, look, man, I brought all the weapons. Can you at least go buy the ammo? There's a Walmart up the street.

He goes, yeah, I'll go buy the ammo. So I can't buy the—he even tells him, I can't buy it, but I'll have one of my guys buy it. And Deverelli thinking, I'm okay if I don't buy it. Well, that wasn't smart. So the guy – he and his buddy drive down the street. His employee drives down the street. He gives them $1,000 and says, go buy $1,000. Well, that's just direction.

You just bought the money. You just bought it. He buys it. He's saying, go kill that guy. No, I didn't have anything to do with it. Right. He buys the ammo. They throw it back in the trunk. They're driving back to the parking lot. Boom. They get pulled over. They get y saying, go kill that guy. No, I didn't have anything to do with it. Right. He buys the ammo. They throw it back in the trunk.

They're driving back to the parking lot. Boom, they get pulled over. They get yanked out of the car. They get arrested. That's it. So as a result of that, he had a plea agreement that is now validated. So instead of getting house arrest, he gets six years. Right.

So Pacquiao. And then he meets Matthew Beacock. He meets me in prison. I write the book. But he gets out. He goes to Miami in prison i write the book but he gets out he goes to miami and then after a year he gets out so so devereaux he left prison never talked to me again when he left by the way he gave me a big bear hug tears in his eyes and said you know me better than my own family. Tears in his eyes? Tears in his eyes. And I was thinking, what's going on?

Like, he's really psycho. And he goes, I want to let you know something, bro. And keep in mind, I didn't have my, my sentence hadn't been cut yet. So my outdate is 2030. He goes, I'm going to be here for you. I don't fuck my friends. I'm going to be here for you.

He said, and I'm going to be standing at the gate when you get out of here. And I said, I hope so, bro. I hope so. And he said, oh, you watch. Gives me a big bear hug. Never talk to that cocksucker again. Until the strip club meeting after the lawsuit. You had to sue him to talk to him.

I'm talking to, yeah, all I'm doing is talking to the literary agent who, by the way, who was my literary agent representing me on my book that I was finishing up that has now put my book to the side to go for Deverelli's book. And mine is just a side note and has been postponed for a year now. At this point, the literary agent stops talking to me. And I'm like. Something's going. Yeah. I mean, well, and you know what the truth is? It's like they didn't they as far as I knew, they didn't have a book deal.

Like they don't have a book deal. They they're shopping this thing. They're now they're all he could talk about is suing, suing, suing. And what's funny is I wrote an email. I wrote a letter to Devoroli and I wrote an email to Ross. What year are we in now? Because the movie came out, I want to say, 2016. Does that sound right?

Can we check that out? Yeah, it is. This is probably 14, 14. So the movie's not out yet. Maybe 50. When does the movie come out 2016 okay so this is probably this is probably let's say 14 or 15 okay and so i sent deborah rolly a letter that said hey bro like what are you doing like you guys are running around trying to sue warner brothers for

something that they didn't do they They haven't done anything wrong. You need to be focused on getting a book deal. I write a letter to an email to Ross saying the same type of thing. I said, first of all, please don't mention to me anything about like the lawsuit of Devereaux anymore. I said, I'm so disgusted by the fact that my project has been thrown to the side. He had all kinds of big promises to me. I said, because now you and Deverelli have decided to start suing.

You feel like suing is more lucrative than actually making an attempt to get a book deal and get your own deal. Like, I'd rather steal from you than do the work myself, right? And listen, by this point, like, I've had an epiphany, right? Like I'm not going to be involved in any fraud. I've got a legitimate thing going on. I want to write stories. I want to get out.

I want to do a podcast. I want to publish books. I want to get movies made. I want to option stories. That's what I want to do. And you've taken that and perverted it into a scam. You're now suing. You set somebody up with a manuscript that he never wanted and you knew damn well you tried to get it to him. You made an extreme effort to get it in this guy's hands so you could say Warner Brothers used it.

Whether they did or not, I don't know. Pretty bold of them to try to scam an ex-scammer. I mean, shit. Well, here's the thing. I've got – my outdates 2030. Yeah, but they're doing it as if you're not going to like – it seems to me from the way you're saying it as if you're not going to pick up on it. But what can I do? You can't do much, but I'm saying like they're playing it like you're not – you know what I mean?

First of all, Debra Rowley absolutely would tell you, oh, dude's in prison. He can't do shit. Like you don't understand, Ross. Yeah. He cannot do anything. Nobody helps this guy. He's got an 80-year-old mother. He's got, like, his dad's dead.

His mother's in her 80s. His ex-wife who talks to him on the phone, she's got three or four kids. She's not – she can't help him. Like, his sister doesn't want to help. Nobody's going to help this guy. Nothing he can do. So do so okay that's fine so i'm sitting there and and and so they basically just stopped talking to me so i'm sitting there one day and do you know what miami dr you know what miami drive is it's a magazine it's like a big glossy magazine in miami you ever heard of that? Miami Drive? No. It's a celebrity Miami

magazine. Ocean Drive. I'm sorry. It's named after the road. Right. Ocean Drive. I don't know if I've seen that before. It's a huge magazine too. Here's what's funny. One day I'm sitting there with Pete, my buddy Pete.

We're sitting at this area that they call Stonehenge, right? It's got a bunch of benches around and it's all concrete. It's in a big circle. So we're sitting there one day and all of a sudden this guy comes up and he goes, hey, Cox. And I go, what's up? I said, yeah, what's up?

His name's Caroni. Caroni comes up. He goes, hey, Cox. And I go, what's up? Is you making any money on that Dev Roli book? And I i went no they haven't published it yet i said they never found a publisher and he goes what fuck you talking and he drops ocean's drive down and there's a picture of devaroli with holding the book with about 50 or 60 books piled up behind it. My name very clear on the book.

Your name's on it. Of course, my book is from Debra Rowley and Matt Cox. And he's holding it. He's at the Miami Book Fair signing books. And I went, what the fuck? I jump up. I'm flipped out. I can't fucking believe it. call ross ross answers the phone

what's going hey you know i don't scream at you i'm not in a position to be like you piece of shit what am i gonna do you have to be like hey bro what's going on oh hey what's going on how's it going out yeah did you publish that book yeah oh yeah i'm gonna send you one i'll send you one you know okay why is my name what here's the thing my name's on it put your name on it so you now have something to point to like that's me but he didn't put based on which really bothered me it was and not only that you know what he played up the real story from the real war dog the the real, the real, the true story, the true. And I'm thinking, there's a good chunk of that book that's fabricated.

Not only that, this guy is like, I get it if you want to say, okay, well, I kind of made him, look, the real story, you know, and he makes a big effort about the real this and the real that. Wow. Isn't it funny too? Look, you pull it up and look what's right above it. War Dogs. Yep. Why does it say paperback $1,600?

Because that's what Deverelli sells them for. Come on. He's got signed copies. You can't get it anywhere else. And then it's Kindle. Kindle or that. Yeah, it's Kindle for $9 or, yeah. Oh,. And then it's Kindle. Kindle or that. Yeah, it's Kindle for $9 or, yeah. Oh, yeah, Sky.

I mean, I read on Kindle, so. Well. Easy enough. My thing is I'll bet you if you send him $1,600, you only got a 50% chance of getting a book. So what'd you do? Because you're sitting in prison. I mean, I talked to Pete. Pete goes and he goes, I'm going to check this out.

So Pete goes and comes back and he says, I had my mom pull the docket sheet. And he said, they're suing. They filed a – Against Warner Brothers. Yeah. Warner, Todd, Phil, everybody across the board. And so what happens is we go to Amadeo. Of course. The godfather.

Go to the – The schizo father. Go to the godfather. And he says, well, I'm not going to let this happen. This is just ridiculous. I'll have Ephraim de Vroli bowing down before me. Exactly. this is ridiculous they i'll have that from devroli bowing down before me exactly so he you know directs pete my buddy pete to help write this you know thing and the the the judge they

talked to the judge a bunch of times um so they figure out a strategy and then we sue. We sue Warner Brothers. We actually don't sue Warner Brothers. We file what's called an injunction, not an injunction, intervention. Like we try and intervene in their lawsuit because they're already suing Warner and we're intervening, saying, well, we want our interests to be protected. And I never alleged, I just kind of alleged that I'm the true owner of the book. So we go back and forth, back and forth over the next few months. And they don't, like, here's the thing about Devoroli. Like he's – he would rather spend $500,000 to try and fuck you out of 50. Like he could have come to me and said, I'll give you 50 grand. He could have come to me and given me 20 grand.

$20,000 to me when I walked out of prison would have been a game changer. Why do you think that is? Why do you think he's like that? It's some kind of mental issue. You understand, and it's funny too because Pat Cous will say the same thing. He genuinely didn't feel good about a deal unless he felt like you were getting screwed over. So it was more important that you lost. Yes. That's bizarre. It is bizarre.

It's a real personality defect. Absolutely. And, you know, he's a funny guy. Like there were times like he was really funny. He had those moments. Does he laugh like Jonah Hill? No. I was going to say.

No, they don't. That's completely fabricated. It was good, though. What's funny about that laugh, well, you know what's funny about Jonah Hill is Jonah Hill says he reached out to Deverelli several times and he just wouldn't respond and he just wasn't interested. He never reached out to Deverelli one time. Jonah Hill said he reached out to him? He says it multiple times. You know, I tried to reach out to him.

How do we know he didn't try to reach out to him? I mean, Debra Rowley and Ross were like, he's never reached out. And Debra Rowley would have said, yeah, Ross, he wrote me. He would have told him. He just didn't. You sure? I mean, I feel pretty confident that's true, at the very least. Keep in mind, too, that Jonah Hill, Miles Teller, Todd Phillips, there's video of all of them saying, what I like about this story is it's the true story. It's the real story.

This really happened. This really – and I'll get to that. You'll see why that's so – oh, such a weird thing to say. So we're suing back and forth. Like we're suing or we're filing motions back and forth, back and forth like we're so we're suing or we're filing motions back and forth back and forth and i'm sitting there like like if this guy had come to me and offered me 20 grand like but in his mind he's getting out in 2030. i don't have to even deal with this i i can wear this guy down how he what what devaroli knows is this is that if at some point we have to have a hearing. I can't go. Yeah, it's over. It's nearly impossible to fight a case from inside, a civil case from inside of a federal prison. They don't want to

release you. It's up to the warden. Wardens don't release you. They don't let you go. They don't pay for you to go. They don't, nothing. Cross the board, I'm not going. And he knows that. I just don't get to a point. If we get to that point, it's over. He can't show up. It's, it's a completely fine and keep mine too. The, the, the judge doesn't want to deal with this. No judge wants to deal with this guy's in prison. This is a pain in the ass. He's doing it pro se. Yeah. Didn't even have a lawyer. Yeah. So, uh, we go back and forth, back and forth. Well, at one point, I'm telling Ross, like I am telling Ross, this was before we had filed, I asked him multiple times, come see me because I'm going to do something that's going to be a real problem for you. It is imperative that you come to see me. I am telling you, this is absolutely important. I was going to just explain to him, you need to include me in the lawsuit or you need to see me. I am telling you this is absolutely important.

I was going to just explain to him, you need to include me in the lawsuit or you need to give me a settlement. I'll take 20 grand. Like I'll take something. But he never does. He says he's going to a couple times and he'll try and he'll just doesn't because he knows he doesn't matter. He doesn't want to deal with me. He's got what he wants. And so anyway, we file the lawsuit.

He's furious. It goes back and forth, back and forth. Bottom line is we finally get to a point where Pete's like, I don't know. We don't know what else to do. And at that point, the movie comes out. And the movie is vastly – keep in mind the whole time their lawsuit was filed before the movie came out. And so it's been shot. It just hasn't been released. So it's not changing.

So you're good. This is what it is. It's filed for – they're releasing it no matter what. So they come out and say, boom. Shimmy gave it to his father. The whole thing, they lay it out solid then they lay out that it's all been stolen everything was stolen what do you mean that they stole the manuscript and they used the manuscript to write the write the uh the story that they stole oh oh

i i missed you for a second i thought you were talking about the other guys go ahead they stole it that he didn't use he did not use the article in in the rolling stone that they that it didn't have enough and jonah hill wasn't happy so because jonah hill wasn't happy and wanted them to rewrite the article the the um the screenplay they had to use the manuscript because it had more material and it had more about more that packhouse didn't know and their hope was that when the movie came out some of the scenes they would be able to use they'd be able to say that was taken from the manuscript because a lot of them are overlaying they're overlapping scenes or expanded or funny or so some of them are going to be similar. And so it comes out and they look at it and they watch it and they

realize it's nothing like the book. Not only is it nothing like the book, it's nothing like the article. The only similarities is two stoner kids started selling arms or ammunition to the federal government, and it ended up being Chinese, and they got in trouble, and they went to jail. That's it. The similarity – like all the things that people watch that movie and go, man, that was great. I love it when they grab Pac-Aus and they take and they stick the gun to his head. They bring him in the square and they stick the fucking – set the gun into his head and they're going to shoot him. That never happened. Well, I love it when – the guy's real name is Toumei.

But whatever his name is in the movie, the one played by Bradley Cooper. I love how at the end of the movie he gave him all that money. He never gave him any money. I loved it how they got matching Porsches and they never drove matching Porsches. I love it when Pacquiao gets the girl and he's got the penthouse. He never had a penthouse. All the best stuff. He never not only had a penthouse.

He had a shitty fucking apartment. I mean this is what Hollywood does though. They shimmy everything. I love it when Devereux, those drug dealers rip him off. He pulls the gun out, shoots the gun. That never happened. I love it. Like I can go on and on and on.

Like 90 percent of the movie is gone. It is fictitious. I love it when they drive through the triangle of death and they're being shot at. Deverell, he never went to Iraq. He never – there was no triangle of death. I love it when – It looks good in the movie. Right. See what I'm saying?

Let's go on and on. None of it. There were two stoner kids that were selling drugs. That's it. So – Selling weapons. No kids that were selling drugs. That's it. So – Selling weapons. No, they were selling – they did sell weapons, but mostly it was ammunition. Right.

Did I say drugs? Yeah, you said drugs. I'm sorry, man. It's getting late. No, it's all good. That were selling weapons and mostly ammunition is what – it's really about ammunition. So things used on the field of battle. Right. really about ammunition right so things used on the field of battle right so what ends up happening

is ross's whole website or his whole thing is like the case is fucked right he's like damn it's fucked like i'm fucked because we have alleged that they stole it and used our material and they didn't use our material they didn't just use our material they didn't use they didn't use our material. They didn't just use our material. They didn't use the material in Rolling Stones magazine. So then Ross is a sharp guy. He kicks back and he goes, the Lanham Act. The Lanham Act says that you are not allowed to advertise a product if you know the product is false. You cannot falsely advertise something to make sales. And they absolutely pushed that movie as the true story, the real story.

This really happened. Jonah Hill says, what I love about this movie is these two guys are real guys and these things really happened. Todd Phillips, what's great about that is we took as much as we could directly from the article. What? And we took it and, you know, it's amazing because it really happened. Miles Davis, same thing. Listen, it's over and over. Bradley Cooper, what's great about this movie is that these are real guys that this happened to. These are real things that happened. You could pull all that off of YouTube. All these

guys are saying it's hilarious. So they say all of that knowing that you fabricated it. Why did you fabricate it? Because you knew there was a lawsuit. You knew that Shimmy had seen the book. You knew you'd seen it and you knew Deverelli was going to sue. So you completely fabricated the movie. So it would be there'd be those lawyers at Warner Brothers are not idiots. But neither is Ross. So Ross says, look, Lambham Act. Not only did they falsely advertise the movie, they damaged our ability for us to promote and sell our book, which is the

true story. Yes. If it was true. Is the book true? But on their end, they're just – they're only looking out for their own pockets. But technically, they're right. Forget what – whether their story is true or not, they're right about what Warner Brothers is doing.

Yes. Yeah. forget what whether their story is true or not they're right about what warner brothers is doing yes yeah warner brothers damaged their ability to market their product by putting out a fake narrative and saying it's true so it gets complicated right yes but so did they sue them for um like a hundred and something they basically said they wanted all the profit which ended up being like 200 million dollars so So yeah. So they're suing for, it wasn't 200 million then, it was like 140 million. Now it's over 200 million. So they're suing. They want all this stuff. They're suing. And they keep pushing that our book is the real story. It's the real story. It's the real story. And I'm saying, what's going on, fellas? What and they're saying mr cox doesn't

have a leg to stay in on it's not he doesn't own the copyright he is just a work for hire he's in prison he's a con man and so i go and i take stranger danger And I take the pages from Stranger Danger and I compare and look, pages 112 through 120. Look, and here is where it came from Stranger Danger. And I only do maybe six or eight comparisons. And I have them and I tell – so I tell tell uh pete pete's like i'm like what are we going to do he's like i don't know like they're they're going to wear us down they this like he's like the only thing we can do is we can tell warner brothers about what's about what's happening and he goes if we tell warner brothers he goes, we're shooting ourselves in the foot.

Because he's like, we can still try and file under the Lanham Act, but we really are shooting ourselves in the foot. He's like, because we have the same argument that they have, and right now it's a good argument, but we'll be shooting ourselves in the foot. Well, no, we don't have the Lanham Act. He's like, we have nothing.

I'm sorry, we basically have nothing. Because the truth of the matter is, the moment we say, look, the book part of – now I'm, of course, making it sound like the whole book is fabricated, practically the whole book. The truth is it's not that much. But there are some things. There are some things, and it's certainly not what they're saying. And Deverelli knows it's fake because he wrote the book, right? So he knows these are lies. So he's saying it's absolutely 100% true.

It's crazy though that that book was out before the movie came out, long before because I think the movie came out later that year. I might be wrong about that. Yeah, I said no. The book is out a year. The book was out January 2016, right? Right. So it's crazy that these guys on the press tour were saying everything is true when there's literally a book that can point to written by the guy that shows entirely different stories that weren't told so what did you and then you can go to the rolling stone article that's open source and you can see a lot of the stuff

in the movies not from there that doesn't yeah but you understand that that this is hollywood and they know that people are sheep yeah they know they can lie they can look at you straight in the face and lie and if they say it enough if you believe it right i think it was uh hitler who said like uh he was a big believer in the big lie right it was him or kerbals who basically said if you say something no matter how outrageous you say it repeatedly enough and loud enough eventually it will be true and if you win nobody will ever ask you if it's true yeah right so you know and similar right right similar psychological thing you hurt a lot of people exactly what you hurt a lot of people you keep saying and you're like okay i guess it breaks me down so yeah so what what happens is uh so pete's like what do you want to do and i said said, I'm thinking it's over. And I'm like, you know what?

And my fear is – so by the way, they schedule a – they end up scheduling a mediation. So Warner Brothers is saying we want to mediate with Ross and Deverelli. They want to settle. And Pete's like, I don't know what to do. Like, what are we going to do? And Deverelli, we go to Frank, and Frank is like, you know, we tell Frank what we're going to do. And he's like, if you want to do that, that's fine. You know, keep in mind, I've got a ton of time left.

Like, it's a bad spot. So he says, it's up to you guys. And then we make the decision that we're going to go ahead and file a motion where we say that I'm the actual owner of the book and that most of the book has been fabricated and that they don't have a prayer. We file that just before the – I'm sorry. The day before the mediation, it gets filed. They cancel the mediation. Because Warner Brothers – and within a month or so, Warner Brothers files something that says, we believe that Cox may be the real owner of the manuscript. We believe that it's fabricated. We want to depose Cox. So now they want to use you to get out of there.

Yes. Yeah. So this goes back and forth, back and forth several times. And Pete – I remember Pete's like, man, they're trying to depose me. They're trying to get a discovery from me. And so Pete says, you know what we ought to do? We ought to get Deverelli's lawyer fired. We should just get his lawyer

taken off the case. That'll give us some time. Because by that point, I'd gotten my sentence reduced once. And we already know that I'm working on another one. He's like, we need to drag this out until we can get you out of prison.

He has a good way to do that is get his lawyer fired. I go, how do we do that? And he goes, let's take examples from the two books, send it to his lawyer. He goes, because I'm pretty sure that Deverelli and Ross have lied to their lawyers. And once their lawyer sees that they've lied to them, they have to recuse themselves. They can't continue to say that these guys stole and that it's the real story and it's completely true if they know for a fact it's not true. Keep in mind, the Stranger Danger manuscript that I have was printed out on a printer at Coleman, and every page has my full name and date and the time stamp and everything. Whoa.

I have no access to a regular printer. I can't cut and paste it. I can't do anything. I'm in prison. Even with a fine arts degree. Nothing I can use. Can't use it in there. And Deverelli, when he sees it, knows it was printed.

And everybody, every staff member would say, absolutely, there's no way for him to alter that. It's printed. And it's beat to shit. So we make the copies. We send it to his lawyer boom the next day he's uh next day he quits he gets another lawyer i forget how we got the second lawyer fired we get two lawyers fired over how long um a year yeah within a year within about six months really he gets another lawyer boom we get him fired um then devaroli files a lawsuit against like all kinds of people like apple and all these places that have like the the um the street they're streaming it, he sues all of them. So we then notify all of them what's happening.

By the way, at this point, I'm now on the email system with Deverelli's new lawyer, and he's begging to come see me so he can make an offer. I'll bet. And I'm just trying to get out of prison at this point. Like I want to get out so I can get a lawyer in Sue. So we're going back and forth, back and forth. So they schedule another mediation. They go to the mediation. There's nothing we can do about it. They have the mediation. We don't really know what happened the next day but i'm sorry not the next day yeah the day after that day after the media no it is the next day the next day next day i get an email from my niece and she says keep in mind ross i knew ross and got ross as a literary agent

because he was friends with my brother-in-law, who's a lawyer, who had represented Ross at one point. And so I get a, and my niece works at the law firm. So does my brother, my brother, not my brother-in-law, but my brother-in-law and my brother. So my niece sends me an email and says, Uncle Matt, Uncle Mark wanted to let, my brother, wanted to let you know Ross Reback had a heart attack last night. We don't know much, but he wanted to let you know that he had a heart attack and he died. A couple days later, we find out that maybe a week later, we find out that Deverelli and Warner Brothers both remove – they withdraw their lawsuits and close it out. It's over. It's done. We go to Frank and say, Frank, they withdrew their lawsuit.

They didn't – and Frank looks at it and Frank goes, oh, they settled. And we go, settled? How would they have settled? Well, that's what they do. They put – you pull the lawsuit. It means there's an out-of-court settle. Right. Out-of-court settlement.

Which is kind of a fucked-up thing because then it can make it look like you lost in the future depending on which side you're on. So he says that – he's like they're doing that so that you don't know that there's a settlement. So you think that Ross died and that's it. They settled. Ross died and Deverelli dropped the lawsuit. So I wait about a week and I call my sister and I say, hey, Helen, what's going on? And she goes, what's going on? And I said, hey, Helen, what's going on? And she goes, what's going on? And I said, how are you doing?

Because I needed to get – I needed to serve everybody in the lawsuit. I was going to refile my lawsuit. And I needed – and I was going to refile against Deverelli and Warner to say I knew there was a settlement. You know what I'm saying? Like I forget what we were going to say. I don't know because Frank and Pete were handling that. So whatever it was, I needed somebody, a process server. So I call Helen and say, hey, I need a process server.

She goes, okay, I'll get you one. I said, okay, cool. She goes, I'll get you the name of it. I said, okay, cool. And she said, hey, I said, did you ever find out what happened with Ross? She goes, yeah, he died of a heart attack. I said, oh, okay. And she went, yeah.

She said, we went to the funeral. I said, you did? She goes, yeah. And I went, oh, okay. And she went, yeah. She said, we went to the funeral. I said, you did? She goes, yeah. And I went, oh, how was that? And she said, it was good. It was good. She said, you know, the nice thing, we talked to his wife, you know, and she said it was really, really nice because keep in mind, we don't know if there's a lawsuit. Like they're saying it.

Like we think they said, I'm sorry, we don't know if there's a settlement. We think they settled, but we don't know. And so my sister says, his wife said, you know, it was really, he had a really good day that day. And I was like, what do you mean? She says, well, he had like a business deal, like a mediation set up, and he ended up getting a really big settlement from a company out in California. And they settled the case, and he got a really big settlement. And so, you know, he went to bed that night feeling really good, and he had a really good last day. So that was nice. That was nice. Really nice really big really big

company in california huh thank you helen now keep in mind she knows what's going on you know and i was like thank you she's okay and i all right hang out the phone i go out i tell frank frank pete and they're like what and frank's like yep like, yep, I know. I know. I know. I know it. So by this point, I think I got my sentence reduced again. And now they're just trying to delay. And so we're just delaying as long as we can to try and get me out of out of jail. Debra Roli ends up getting another lawyer. And I end up getting out of prison and going to halfway house. We're desperately fighting to try and get this thing delayed. And we're going back and forth with the judge, with everybody. They want to depose me. They want to. So – and then finally to really throw a monkey wrench in there, we filed the full Stranger Danger manuscript. Or did we just file a – I want to say – now that I think about it, I think we filed a bunch of just excerpts.

You have to think these excerpts were like, some of them were just, some were just over the top. Like, I mean, I literally had pulled like three pages here, a paragraph here, and rewritten it slightly, but not much.

And I mean, there's no way, and Deverelli looks so bad in the whole thing. Like, he looks bad. Like, there's, what can he say? Everything he's been saying is a blatant lie now. Yeah, he's fucked. Right.

So we're now trying to sue him because we're now trying to say, you owe me money. We know you got a settlement. By the way, initially, they're not saying really anything. But now that we refile the lawsuit, they now are admitting they got a...

There's a lawsuit. there's a lawsuit. There's a settlement. But we need to figure out a way to work this out. They're trying to come see me. I don't want to see them. I want to get out and get a lawyer. So I get out. Eventually, I get out.

I go to the halfway house. And you imagine poor Deverelli. He never thought I was getting out of prison. So I get out of prison. And I don't have Frank Amadeo. I don't have Pete to help me. I'm sitting in the prison. I'm working a job at a gym. And I end up getting – I end up calling to try and find a lawyer.

I can't find a lawyer. You know how hard it is to get a property – an intellectual property attorney to represent you? Is this the guy in Philly you ended up getting? Yeah. So I ended up getting this guy in Philly who's – I actually get – first I talk to him, but he doesn't represent me. AJ, his – one of his associates represents me. Got it. But they're like together, right?

He's in like media. Yes. Yeah. So they come down. They file a couple lawsuits. We end up going to Miami. We end up having a mediation in Brickell. And that's the first time I saw Deverelli.

Now, what did he say when you first saw him? Did he even talk to you or is this just all? Yeah, he walks in. He shakes my hand. He goes, Matt, Matt, what's up? How's it going? He was 45 minutes late. Of course he was.

We sit down. We go back and forth, back and forth. They leave the room. You know how the mediation goes. And we go back and forth. This went on for an hour or two. And after a couple hours, it just didn't go anywhere. So, you know, we leave.

I couldn't tell you if it went anywhere anyway. I signed a confidentiality agreement. You can't talk about the mediation, what happened. But we went back and forth. Nothing happened. We leave. We go down. We end up getting something to eat on the Miami Beach, you know, that strip.

We get something to eat. It's like I go see a friend of mine from prison, hang out with him, talk to him, say, how's it going, check on him. And then I'm leaving. It's like eight or nine o'clock at night. I'm leaving. I'm leaving Miami.

And I get a phone call from the lawyer, AJ. And he says, where are you? I said, I'm leaving Miami. I'm getting on the interstate. I'm about 20 minutes outside of where we're. Turn around. What? Turn around.

You got to meet us at the Pink Pony. I said, no. No. I'm not doing that. That's a strip club. I'm not going. I know where this is going. No, he's no.

I'm telling you. He said, Deverell, his lawyer, just called. He said he wants to make a deal. Meet us at the Pink Pony. It's the most perfect ending to this. Bro, are you serious with this, man? Don't fuck with me. I said, I got a four and a half hour drive all the way home.

Like, I'm exhausted already. Keep in mind, too, I had to leave at like four in the morning to get there. I've been going all day. I'm exhausted. Turn around, turn around, turn around. Okay, so I turn around. I go back. It takes me, whatever, 30, 45 minutes to get there.

I get there. By the time I get there, the main, the lawyer that I initially called him and AJ is Francis and AJ. Francis is drunk. Francis has got girls. He's making it rain money. He's slapping them. He's got two or three strippers around him. Deverelli still isn't there.

I get there. We wait about an hour, hour and a half. So now it's like 10 o'clock, 10, 1030. Deverelli and his lawyer show up. They show up. By the time they show up, AJ is dragging Francis out of the bar and they're walking him to like their car and or a cab or something. And they drive up, they leave.

This is, and he says, AJ's like, don't talk to him. It's all right. And what's so funny is during the mediation, Deverelli kept saying, can I talk to, like the mediator was like, look, he wants to talk to Matt alone. Deverelli wants to talk to Matt alone without the lawyers. He said they can work it out together.

And I'm like, that's not going to happen. And why do you think that wasn't going to happen? Well, first of all, Francis said, you know why he wants to do that, right? And I said, why? He's going to tell you to fire us and he'll give you cash. Like you're on probation. He'll just give you cash. Get rid of us. He said, because he knows if you fire us, he doesn't have to do anything because he knows we will not come back.

So if he doesn't give you anything, he knows you're screwed. If you say, hey, wait a minute, I fired you, but he was going to give me money. He never did. Like, we're not going to represent you. So he's trying to get rid of us. And I went and I said, yeah, I don't want to see him. I have nothing to say to this guy anyway. Keep in mind, I don't care.

I didn't care about the money at this point. I'm out of prison. I'm staying. I'm living. I'm not even halfway house anymore. Now I'm staying at someone's spare room by this point. Like, I don't care. I couldn't even drive.

The vehicle I had was such a piece of shit. I couldn't even drive it to Miami. I had to borrow my mother's car. So when they leave, Deverelli says, I get up even drive. The vehicle I had was such a piece of shit. I couldn't even drive it to Miami. I had to borrow my mother's car. So when they leave, Dev Roli says, I get up to leave. He goes, let me talk to you.

Let me talk to you. Let me talk to you. Like what? So we sit down and we sit down. I go, what's up? He's like, um,

he's like, man, how's it going? I go, man, cut the fucking shit. We're not friends, bro.

I said, what do you want? And he goes i just um i want to work this out with you i said okay yeah no shit and i said okay i said you know what's funny is i said you could have been giving me 20 or 30 grand in prison and he goes do you have any idea how much money you've cost me and i can't say how much money i've cost you damn the amount of money that my lawsuit cost warner brothers and like he was like and i knew it was expensive and frank had the estimates and they all had about the same estimates and i always thought frank was like exaggerating but it's insane how much money they had cost.

And I know – Because again, they're trying to push you away. So they're spending the money on doing that. And Deverelli is fighting me with – he's got private lawyers and it's insane. Oh, yeah. And so we're going back and forth, back and forth. And we know Deverelli has money sitting somewhere waiting for him, but he can't get to it until he settles with me. So Warner Brothers settled with him and put money here and said, you don't get that money until you settle with Cox.

So we're going back and forth, back and forth. So he's lost all leverage now. A lot of it. Yes and no. Like I also can't fight forever. And these guys, although they're representing me on contingency, they're not going to do that forever. They're not going to trial. They've just spent how much money to fly out here to stay in a nice hotel to – you know.

So Deverell and I go back and forth and we start arguing just back and forth. And he's like, you have no idea how much money you cost me. And I'm like, you're just a piece of shit i said let me explain something to you i said and he you know i said you could have given me 20 grand that would have changed my fucking life getting out of probe i got getting out of out of prison i said you gave me that big bear hug and you your eyes filled up with tears i said you're pathetic bro like i just leaned into him right and he's like bro let's just put this behind us bro like we could be friends again like i miss talking to you i just stop it i said listen to me i said i know you're a fucking psychopath do you understand that i know that

so i said you can lie and tell your spin your story to all your friends and all these fucking people and your family and everybody that thinks you're a normal person but i know you're a scumbag i said so don't don't don't try and sell me we're friends we were never friends you don't have friends people like you don't have friends how do you react to this i mean you know what do you say when someone tells you the truth you don't like it but it's true could you see that he oh he know yeah but But if you – but you also have to understand that I'm not going to say something to him that's going to make him go, wow. There's no connection. So if you're thinking I'm going to say something to him that's going to make him connect, it's not. It's not there.

So I can say whatever. So I'm just spitting the truth. And I said, let me – and he goes, what are you getting so upset about? This isn't personal. I said, no, don't you get it? It is personal. That's what you don't understand. I said, I wanted to write a true crime book

about your life and you and Ross perverted it. You asked me to fabricate it and pervert it and get it out there. I said, I did because it was in such a bad position. I was desperate to be a part of this. And you two fucking pieces of garbage perverted this so that you could sue Warner Brothers for something that they didn't even do. You took what I said, what I thought was helping me start over my life. And you turned it into a fucking scam. I said, you scam these people out of fucking tons of money.

Like I can't even say how much money it is, but it's fucking ridiculous how much money you got. So you spend tons of money. You got tons of money on them. And he goes, well, you don't, you don't know. You don't understand. I said, no, let me, let me explain. I said, I do understand.

I said, well, let me explain to you why, how I understand. I said, let me explain to you why, how. I said, I'm going to let you know how you know it's not personal, how it is personal for me. And he looked at me. I said, here's the thing. I said, I live in someone's spare room right now. I said, I had to. My car is such a piece of garbage. I had to borrow my mother's car to drive the four and a half hours here because my car would not make it here and back. I said, I live – I'm paying $600 a month to stay in someone's spare room.

I said, but you know what I get to do? I get to write every day. I get to paint? I get to write every day. I get to paint. I have friends. Like I go through this whole thing. Like I've got all of these things. I said, and the money doesn't mean anything to me. I don't even care about the money.

I said, I said, I'm, I said, here's where I'm at. I'm, and he goes, he said, these guys are – you're not paying these guys? I said, no, they're on contingency. I said, let me explain something how this – I said, this is where I'm at. I'm willing to spend every last fucking dime that these fuckers have to make sure you get as little as possible. I said, that's where I'm at so i don't give a fuck i said i just want to make sure you get as little as possible that's all i care about that's it i said i'm not gonna get anything you're you're trying to beat him in his own game listen

and he what here and it was true like i don't I didn't care about that. At this point, I want this to end, but I want to make sure he gets as little as possible. Like I was ready to give everything to Francis and AJ. I'm ready to just hand them everything. They've already blown a ton of money. Like I'm ready to give whatever I get to them. Like I really just don't give a shit. Luckily, that's not what they did. They could have, but they didn't.

So he immediately throws out a number. And then I throw out a number and he throws out a number and I throw out a number and we go back and forth, back and forth. And we end up coming up with the he ends up saying something that was just ridiculous. Like and I stood up. I said, all right, we're done. I started walking. He blurs out a number. I turn around.

I said, I said, I'll call. I'll call AJ and Francis tomorrow. I said, I'll call AJ and Francis tomorrow. I said, I'll have them call you. He said, are we good? I said, we'll see what they say. And I walk off. So they end up, like two days later, they get back to where they're from, which is, fuck, where is it? Media, Pennsylvania.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, Pennsylvania. They call me and they're like, hey, so what happened? Actually, I think they might have still been in Miami and they go hey what happened when we it was the next day it was the next day it was the next day I think because I think they were still in Miami and they were like hey what happened and I tell them oh this is what happened I told them this and I told them that I told them this I told them that I said and then I told them I said I'm willing to spend every last fucking dime of Francis's money to make sure you get as little as possible.

And they burst out laughing. He's like, I fucking love that shit, bro. That is hilarious. I said, and then he came up with this. This is the amount we came up with. And he goes, okay, let me call his lawyer and we'll see. He said, are you good? I said, I mean, I'm good.

And so, you know, we went back and forth, back and forth. And, you know, we saw they wrote up a contract four different ways and we signed the contract and that was it wow so that was it was over that's a full saga right there man i think alessi here's got to hit the road i'm i was just looking at the time it got late he's been a fucking trooper all day killing it so i want to get him out of here you've been on fire too matt but this was awesome lived up to expectations as always you're a real you got a real gift on the mic man but your life has been extremely interesting you've written a lot of books about a lot of cool people you've come into contact with you wrote your own book shark in the housing market right no what's it called shark in the housing pool shark in the housing point i was very close it was very link in description listen you want to hear you want to read something disturbing stranger danger bro yeah i actually i can't keep looking at this fucking this it's so

upsetting that cover is like freaking me the fuck out listen my wife was like you can't you can't put that it's so disturbing and i was like i know i like it link in description to all your books and everything and uh until we do it again all right all right everybody else you know what it is give it a thought get back to me peace all right guys thank you for watching this video if you haven't already please smash that subscribe button hit that like button on the video and here's another episode of the podcast that you might want to check out