Julian Dorey Podcast - 🤯 [VIDEO] - Why China's Taiwan Invasion will FAIL | Andrew Bustamante (CIA) & Jim DiOrio (FBI) • 166

Episode Date: November 1, 2023

(***TIMESTAMPS in Description Below) ~ Andrew Bustamante is a former CIA Spy, Jim DiOrio is a former FBI Special Agent in Charge, and Danny Jones is the host of Danny Jones Podcast. PART 1 (on Danny Jones Podcast): https://youtu.be/txjl1HaKmVc?si=fqYC4xghcaAh5FWG  EPISODE LINKS: - Get 15% OFF MudWTR (PROMO CODE: “JULIAN”): https://mudwtr.com/julian  - Julian Dorey PODCAST MERCH: https://legacy.23point5.com/creator/Julian-Dorey-9826?tab=Featured  - Support our Show on PATREON: https://www.patreon.com/JulianDorey  - Join our DISCORD: https://discord.gg/ubyXDkWx - SUBSCRIBE to Clips Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@UChs-BsSX71a_leuqUk7vtDg  ANDREW BUSTAMANTE LINKS Find your spy superpower: https://everydayspy.com/quiz Learn more with Andy: https://everydayspy.com Follow Andy's podcast: @EverydaySpyPodcast CREDITS: - Hosted & Produced by Julian D. Dorey; Taiwan’s military ***TIMESTAMPS*** 0:00 - Andrew Bustamante revisits his Taiwan 2024 Invasion Prediction 7:25 - The Exploding Helmets Myth Proven False; Language barriers 15:45 - China’ military not a threat to US 21:00 - DARPA way ahead of China? 28:55 - Biden & Trump China Policies 32:32 - Saudi Arabia’s relationship with China; Khashoggi Hit 37:35 - Detained in Turkey 43:35 - Gov Digi Curency 47:24 - Jim DiOrio revisits his San Bernardino iPhone Investigation 53:20 - Debating Apple’s Decision on handing over iPhone 1:02:08 - Patriot Act & Constitution 1:11:55 - Fear drives security 1:13:40 - Jim remembers witnessing 9/II & his September 15th FBI Sting on Al-Q 1:23:15 - CIA & FBI Changes from Obama to Trump 1:29:18 - The Summer of the Shark 1:30:51 - Gov Agency Limitations; Jack Murphy CIA Russian Ops Report 1:38:40 - Do foreign powers want CIA to be weaker? 1:43:32 - Tom O’Neill Washington Post CIA Story 1:48:57 - Elon Musk’s Twitter Files 1:53:04 - Artificial Intelligence (AI) & CIA 1:56:19 - AI & Middle East Oil 1:59:46 - Andy’s Tell-All Book 2:01:39 - What’s Next ~ Get $150 Off The Eight Sleep Pod Pro Mattress / Mattress Cover (USING CODE: “JULIANDOREY”): https://eight-sleep.ioym.net/trendifier Julian's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/julianddorey ~ Music via Artlist.io ~ Julian Dorey Podcast Episode 166 - Andrew Bustamante & Jim DiOrio (CIA x FBI) Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey guys, I need your help with three quick things, and if you're watching me on Spotify video right now, you can see this timer to my right, it is going to be fast. Number one, if you are not already following the show, please hit that follow button on Spotify or whatever audio platform you're on. Number two, if you're on Spotify right now, on our show's homepage in the description, you will see a link to our Spotify podcast clips channel. That's right, we are posting clips from this podcast every single day on there. There is a whole library. So go over there and follow. And finally, number three, if you are on Spotify or Apple, please leave a five-star review. It is a huge, huge help to the show. Now let's get to the episode. China gets to test Western resolve and deplete Western resources in the Russia conflict while they bide time to take the taiwan target and by the time they take the taiwan target the resources and the will of the west have been

drained and tested so the taiwan target goes even faster and now russia's expanded china's expanded and they're a partnership now we're sitting here in the end of september 2023 the next election is november 2024 when you were on on well now at the danny jones podcast number 127 on i guess like march 27 2022 so that's a while ago now that's when you first said yep in the lead up to the 2024 election china's going to take taiwan you'll see china make a massive move on it sounds like you're a thousand more strong about that all in on that absolutely what is that move going to look like i never said it was going to be warships invading taiwan borders roll the tape steven yeah for real if we have it i would love to see it i would love to see exactly what i said because i because i'm still saying i'm still saying that what we're going to see is we're

going to see a massive move that move could be a political move like they did in hong kong where all of a sudden they just export all of all of beijing's laws yeah what happened there in hong kong the short memory the short memory yeah yeah so so there was basically a turnkey uh over like the preceding three years from 2016 to 2019 beijing started exporting their legal code and codifying it as hong kong law so then the protests that happened in hong kong were a response to the fact that beijing laws were now enforceable in hong kong and the people didn't vote for that. Right. So that's it. That legal approach is they've been doing that in Taiwan for probably the last 10 years.

How like obviously the legal system in China is way fucking different than ours. But like what if you had to explain it to a fifth grader to get across like how it works other than the obvious of Xi Jinping decides what happens. Like is there any like real court in China? Is there anything that's not completely decided from the top or is it exactly what it looks like? It's not from the top, technically. It's from the Communist Party. It's from the CCP. Okay. So the party controls everything. Arguably, the party controls everything here too. Definitely.

It's the Democratic National Convention or the Republican National Convention that dictates everything. Every opportunity we have comes from one of those two conventions, parties. Okay. Right. So China has a communist party and that party runs the policy and the legal infrastructure for everything that happens in the country. Taiwan is considered by most of the world to be a part of china already one country two systems one china danny over here agrees that's the way it's been i think you made fun of me for saying that one i did you're like yeah i never you're on a podcast with ryan and and you're like i'm watching it like that was ryan tate god and you're like yeah i never thought of taiwan as something i just always thought that was china i'm like yep i'm like fuck that is the never thought of Taiwan as its own thing. I just always thought that was China. I'm like, fuck. That is the formal policy of most countries. The countries that don't agree with that are like little poor countries that whatever.

I don't think there's one major developing nation that recognizes Taiwan. Not one. Right. So what that means is that the Chinese system gets to run independently. They have their own president. Right. They have their own voting process, et cetera. They have their own military compulsory service for four months.

Is that what it is? What does that even mean? Yeah. Compulsory service? It means that every person in Taiwan is forced to serve. Oh, got it, got it. But they only have to serve for four months. So that's just basic training.

What do you learn? How to load a gun? So they train. They don't have enough guns. How legit is Taiwan's military? Not. It's not legitimate, and there's no pride in the military either. So here in the United States, we have a great deal of pride in our military.

Do we? It's not that way in Taiwan. I think we have a lot of pride. You should see some of the shit that Jack Murphy's posting. What do you mean? If you go to Jack Murphy's Twitter, he's showing some of these things that are going on inside the army and some of these bases and these people you saw the video

there was some army guy they were having a competition sucking a dildo or something oh yeah yeah yeah yeah that was months ago he posted that it's truck month at GMC tackle the open road with added confidence in a 2025 sierra 1500

pro graphite at zero percent financing for up to 72 months with an available 5.3 liter v8 engine 20 inch high gloss black painted aluminum wheels off-road suspension with available two inch factory installed lift kit plus a towing capacity of up to 13 200 pounds you'll be ready for anything this truck month. Truck month is on now. Ask your GMC dealer for details. So you're hosting the family barbecue this week, but everyone knows your brother is the grill guy,

and it's highly likely he'll be backseat barbecuing all night. So be it. Impress even the toughest of critics with freshly prepared Canadian barbecue favorites from Sobeys. I think what Andy's more referring to, like Jack reports, that was a great podcast you did with him, by the way, but Jack reports on a lot of stuff happening within the military because he comes from that world, it seems like. Whereas I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, I think what you're referring to is how our national people look at our military. Correct.

And it's regionalized, too, still. But I think the thing is our recruitment numbers have consistently been brought down because we cannot attract people to go in. And that's the country's fault along the way. I mean, we've done some stupid shit with our military. We've not paid them well. We've not treated them well. The lack of respect in certain areas of the way. I mean, we've done some stupid shit with our military. We've not paid them well. We've not treated them well. The lack of respect in certain areas of the country. But I think

that is the whole reason. We have to bring in some folks that are not as great. And at the end of the day, we still have a professional standing military. Absolutely. You don't get a professional standing military from four months of compulsory service.

No. So Taiwan doesn't have that. There's no esprit de corps. There's no believing their... So if you can imagine China, for all we know, because none of us have the ability to even look at the legal code in Taiwan and understand how it's different

from the legal code in Beijing, right? Taipei, Beijing, two separate capital cities, but we don't know where their legal code overlaps. And it's going to be in Chinese, simplified or traditional Chinese, depending on which country you're talking about, right? When you get there to see it yourself. For all we know, the legal code

has already been changed there, just like it was already changed in Hong Kong. Yeah. And it's just going to be a matter of one policy that Xi Jinping passes, the CCP passes, that says something like, now all members of Taiwan are hereby required to register as state members of China.

And then there's going to be protests or whatever else. China can run a blockade and just cut Taiwan off from the rest of the world. They can do that. They can do that without ever having to set foot on Taiwan. Right? They can create air dominance over Taipei, over Taiwan. Aren't they already running tests over that?

Exactly right. That's what they've been doing for the last two years. And they're building some crazy, never-before-seen, like massive aircraft carrier, I think, right? They're trying. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're trying. They have the largest aircraft carrier fleet second to us,

and they have the world's newest aircraft carrier that's out there. But technologically speaking well i think technologically speaking they have technically the most advanced aircraft carrier but none of their aircraft carriers have been tested in combat which is where they stand different from us but they also do have like their there was a story that went around a few months ago i don't know if steven can find, but they had to install inside of their military pilots, inside the helmets of their military pilots, they had to install explosives that could only be handled by the generals on the ground because too many of them were deserting. And so I look at China, and like you talked, you had asked the question a little bit ago about like how they look at things in the future and you were saying positively and maybe across the people i believe you but when i look at their military some of it seems like a little bit like a joke like they

don't have they don't have anywhere near the capabilities or the the bought-in ideology that most of ours if not like all of ours has here this is insane what is the source on this in recent weeks users on tiktok have been sharing oh look look at the top look at the top says false yep what's this from logically.ai fact check library this is the fucking problem you find it anywhere else this was published the fact there is no evidence to support the claim that chinese soldiers are being put there published? The fact there is no evidence to support the claim that Chinese soldiers are being equipped with self-destructing helmets.

The fact there is no evidence to support the claim that Chinese soldiers are being equipped with self-destructing helmets. So that's how easy misinformation can get out there. Bingo. That is exactly how easy misinformation can get out there. Is this the only article that published this? There's a lot of weird ones. There's like Asian markets.

Can you go back to google let me ask let me ask you something let me ask you guys something right intel 101 if you are negotiating with a foreigner and you speak your language fluently and the the target's language fluently but the target only speaks their own language fluently who has the advantage the target's language fluently, but the target only speaks their own language fluently, who has the advantage? They do. The person who speaks two languages.

They do. You do. Why don't they, because they can decide it's on their terms and you're not as strong in their language. You have fluency in both. You have fluency in both languages. Yeah, fluency or like actual full-blown command as if I grew up speaking it. Fluency is fluency, man. Right-blown command as if i grew up fluency is fluency man

right if you speak two languages fluently and your target only speaks their own language fluently you speak their you speak their language fluently and your own language fluently right then that means you can control what information you say to them out loud and you can control what information they don't understand okay but you can still say it out loud. Okay. What China has over us is that they can write shit like this in English and post it on English language servers, on English language newspapers, in English language apps. And we read it in our home language and believe it to be true. Meanwhile, the Chinese people never see that in their own language. Ah, yeah.

So now the whole world thinks the Chinese people aren't even faithful to their own military, which is a complete misdirection. And it's on TikTok too. Yep. It's on TikTok? Yeah, so there's TikTok videos talking about it.

That was the opening line to that article. This is the age of information, right? Find the TikTok video. This is what happens when you control the information that other people see. And what we're stuck in the middle of is a giant information war. There it is. Look at this. Son of a bitch.

There's a lot of them. Who controls that? You got to click the little... ...equipping their soldiers with helmets that have a self-destruct button. Let me repeat that. Chinese soldiers stationed in Tibet are being issued that have a self-destruct button let me repeat that chinese soldiers stationed in tibet are being issued helmets that have self-destruct buttons you press the button and a bomb that's embedded in the helmet goes off and kills the soldier in fact chinese state-run media published an article bragging about these new helmets writing

quote if a soldier is seriously wounded and doesn't want to be captured he can activate the self-destruct function himself pause this maintain pause this hold on one second. Chinese state-run media issued the article. What language is that in? It's in English. That's good. Wow, rewind that like 10 seconds? Andy, that was good.

The article bragging about these new helmets, writing, If a soldier is seriously wounded and doesn't want to be captured, he can activate the self-destruct function himself. This can maintain his dignity. However, the soldier is now the only one who can activate the function. The report also mentioned that a commander who oversees the soldier can activate the helmet as well. And so what's the reason for all this? Well, the Chinese military has been, over the last several years now, struggling with soldiers deserting. And thus far, they've been using severe punishments against deserters, such as banning them from public transport, banning them

from attending school, from operating a business, and even from getting a passport. And now, they will be forced to fight, or otherwise, they will be killed by their commander. When an authoritarian country wants to punish a deserter, do you think they just take away their passport? Yeah, that would be sad. You're never going to be able to travel. Deserter. Do you think they just take away their passport? Yeah, that was hard. You're never going to be able to travel. Your whole family will be shamed. Yes, exactly right.

Shot and killed. That's about as good of a live mic drop as I've seen on podcasts. It's super important that people understand this. It's really important. When FBI and CIA and CISA, the counterintelligence security group of the nation, when they come out and they say that mis- and disinformation are being spread, they're not just talking

about fucking Facebook ads that have a racially charged slur inside them. They're talking about stuff like this. China can produce misinformation in English and in Chinese and in Russian and in French and in German because that's what they have focused on.

We don't do that? We can do that, but the problem with us is that we don't have the foreign language fluency that other countries have. Our government doesn't, though? Come on.

Right. Nobody in the CIA does? No, no, no. Hold on, guys. I said we don't have the same level that they do. Because guess what the whole world speaks? English. Yeah, but we have people who speak every language. Dude, five fucking people

speaking Chinese can't keep up with 50 Chinese people who speak English. They can produce ten times the amount of content than these five people can create. Oh, you're talking about volume. I'm talking about everything. I'm talking about quality, too.

Because guess what? A Chinese person who's been learning English since they were five is going to speak English in a superior level than an English speaker who's been learning Chinese since ninth grade.

Yeah, this is what I was confused about on your fluency question, by the way, because that's kind of what I'm getting at. Because the ninth grader may speak it fluently now, but they don't have the pizzazz with the language, the little intricate things. Like, they can be fluent, but they don't have the little nuances.

But, I mean, boil all those... Like, I totally understand the details. I totally understand the nuances there, right? If you boil it down to its simplest level, they have 1.3 billion people. I'll bet they frankly have three people who speak English for every one person in the United States who speaks anything other than English.

Right. Not speaks Chinese, but speaks anything other than English. So what's the ratios? That's insane. Yeah. Right? That's how this kind of stuff. And one article, like if you think about it, right?

The 80-20 rule tells us that for every 10 things that you create, only two things will actually make an impact. So we just watched one English language article created by state-run media that went up on TikTok. That means, according to the 80-20 rule, nine other things were created and just didn't go anywhere. It's not like they created one article that was fake and that one article that was fake hit. It meant that they created 10 articles and that one article hit.

Well, at least they're also fact-checking the fact because it came from state-run media. So they're fact-checking.'s that's a positive they're fact checking over something from companies over regulating themselves we see so many problems with like fact checkers and stuff like that but in this case they're fact checking a foreign government state-run arm that's a dictatorship who's trying to put out information they're like there's no there's actually nothing good to support tiktok's not shout out to google tiktok logically saying the one we looked at shout out to google yeah google did something good yeah something good exploding helmets that's amazing and how many how many idiots will watch that and

say holy shit i'm glad i'm not in the chinese yeah right we're gonna kick their ass they're all deserted you know what you didn't come and give me lunch. Bow. I read it. I read it and had it video or not. I read it and had the same exact reaction. Yeah. Because I'm like, because then also in fairness to me, at least, like you do look at their military reach around the world. And part of this is talking with other guys in the military who have had similar commentary on not about the exploding helmets, but on the lack of talent within their military,

which I can't speak to. They can. You could. the exploding helmets but on the lack of talent within their military which i can't speak to they can you could but like they're like look at our military bases around the world we'd wipe them off the map in a day now do i like thinking that's an exaggeration number one let's be clear yeah but do i like thinking like the guy who oh those are the famous last words of someone who's about to lose no i don't so i don't want to treat it like ah fuck them paper tiger all the way but i also want to be like a little bit of a realist and be at i i don't know if it's like give ourselves credit for certain things but also look at it like hey we we do have the ability to fuck shit up if we had to yeah yeah yeah we do the the the question here isn't who would win.

The question is, do either sides want a war with each other? That was the question. That's the original question. And the answer is no. The United States does not want a war with China. China does not want a war with the United States. That doesn't mean that war won't be the thing that changes the economic balance in the future, but they don't want a war with each other.

The real question, the place that I can't wait to have answered in the future, but they don't want a war with each other. The real question, the place that I can't wait to have answered in the next 12 months, 14 months, right? When the election is November, 2024. That's the window. We're inside the window of time now where China has to make the decision. Do we move on Taiwan now when America is broke, divided, confused, and distracted? And that's just the president. Do we move on Taiwan now or do we wait and see what America is going to look like two years down the road, five years down the road, eight years down the road. If I'm in Xi Jinping's shoes, probability-wise, the probability is that if I was in his shoes,

if a trained intelligence operative was in his shoes, he would move now. He would move in the next 14 months. That doesn't mean he's going to invade. It could be a blockade. It could be a legal struggle. It could be who knows what. It could be a legal struggle. It could be who knows what. It could be a sudden death of a leader.

Who knows what it might be, but you would make some kind of very aggressive, fast move to take control of Taiwan administratively more so than militarily, but you would make a move to ingest that in an as peaceful and as productive a way because if you destroy Taiwan, then you destroy all the value of Taiwan.

So it doesn't make any sense to go in there and bomb the shit out of it. They want what it has, right? So they want to take control of it in a peaceful way that preserves the infrastructure. The same thing Russia wants to do in many parts of Ukraine, right? So it's a simple question.

You've got a 14-month window now with a high probability of success or you wait another 20 years another 25 years another 30 years the reason that i really believe that the 14 month mark the 14 month window that we're in right now is so critical is because of the commitments that the party has made to the people with their 2050 plan because inside their 2050 plan by 2025 they want to have technological independence from the United States. They don't get that unless they have the semiconductor capacity of Taiwan. try Mudwater. Mudwater is a coffee alternative containing four adaptogenic mushrooms. Big words because they're really cool.

With only a fraction of the caffeine of a cup of coffee, you're still going to get that all-day energy without the jitters or the crash. And by the way, each ingredient was added for a very specific purpose. You got cacao and chai for a hint of caffeine and a tasty hot chocolate-like flavor, cordyceps to promote natural energy, and both chaga and reishi to support a healthy immune system. All you gotta do is take a scoop of mud water powder, drop it into hot water, stir, and get on with your day.

Personally, I love how you can drink mud water straight up or mix it into your favorite smoothie. Gotta have options, baby. So what I need you to do is go down and click the mud water link in my description, and at checkout, use promo code JULIAN to get 15% off the best coffee alternative you'll ever find. Once again, that's promo code JULIAN, J-U-L-I-A-N at checkout to get 15% off your own Mudwater today.

And by the way, they're going to throw in a free frother as well. Everybody wins. Now let's get back to the show. Now here's another question because in that last point there too with the semiconductors and stuff, you're talking about the supply chains, which is very fascinating because not just like some of the incompetency in places you never expect it in government, like the public, we would never expect it, but also some of the lack of technology you have in certain seats or a little bit behind. And then at the same time, we have things like our friend DARPA right there where we know – well, we don't even know exactly what they're doing, but we they're doing and this is a government arm doing insanely high-tech things and so looking at china since 2000 i know kaifu lee wrote an amazing book on this called like ai superpower or something like that we'll have to check that title but he's a venture capitalist who is a chinese american and has lived in in both places and he's talked about how in the year 2000,

China was like borderline third world country in tech. And by the headed up into 2020, he wrote the book in like 2018, I want to say, the Chinese superpower of tech was now coming up and evening things out with the United States again, because they also stole a lot of our IP but is is there also the idea that since they're not innovating as much they're definitely innovating things but they're they're mostly taking at will the innovations of other countries and building upon them is there also a pretty good argument to say that there are things behind the scenes in the government in companies paired with the government who are here where we have so much shit that there's they're so far behind in the race they actually think they're winning

that's a very julian dory kind of self-satisfying question there so no it's a serious question i understand it's a serious question so here's i'm gonna ask i'm gonna ask my law enforcement partner right if i told you that you needed to make a million dollars in one year, would you think that it's faster to earn it or steal it? Steal it in a minute. Yeah. I'm not arguing that. You just answered your own question.

No, but I'm saying, does DARPA, do things like DARPA have tech that we can't even imagine? For sure. Yes. Yes. No doubt. Yes. That's far ahead of them. That's what I'm getting at. Is it? Because we don't know what their DARPA is. Yeah, we don't know imagine. For sure. Yes. No doubt. Yes. That's far ahead of them.

That's what I'm getting at. Is it? Because we don't know what their DARPA is. Yeah, we don't know where they're from. They had Neuralink in 95, according to Andy Jacobson. DARPA. DARPA.

Right. So we don't know what their DARPA is, but we do know that the only thing they've done is steal, which means they haven't made, or one of the only things they've done is steal. The thing that they do the best. The only thing they've done. The thing that they do the best that we know of

is stealing. So that means they're stealing from DARPA. Really? And of course they're stealing from DARPA. Stealing from everyone. And then they're stealing from the DARPA equivalent of every first world country out there. How would they steal from DARPA? The same way they steal from everybody else, man. They have the

long-term mission. It's not helpful that most of your engineers engineers most of your computer engineers most of your trained here and come from china yeah right like the the vast majority of the chinese intelligence cases that have happened in the last five years are chinese nationals that have gained american citizenship or were given american green cards to work in american companies and then took the american info ip and took it back to China. Right back. You think that just happens in the United States? No, no. We've talked off camera about a guy we know that it's happening to.

Which guy? The guy with... I've also told you about somebody who I know who wrote a book and has been turned into essentially spy fly paper for other countries including china when it comes to the ufo stuff and some of that crazy super physical anomaly stuff so i'm not saying that we don't have an advantage in terms of innovation what i'm saying is probably the

biggest advantage we have is ingenuity and innovation right right? That is a huge benefit that we have. However, when it comes to making a million dollars, $10 million, $50 million, if you have to do it fast, it's always going to be easier to steal it than to try to earn it, especially because after you steal it, guess what you can do?

You can learn how to earn it on your own, right? So that's one of the advantages that they have. What do we do in response to that if they take Taiwan? That's the way more than a million dollar question. If they take Taiwan, if anything, the CHIPS Act that Biden put into motion tells me that he's kind of already anticipating they're going to take Taiwan. What is the CHIPS Act again? The CHIPS Act is the act that makes domestic production of semiconductors inside the United States a priority that the government can earmark U.S. dollars for. Which means we're going to start making them in the United States. Why would we start making them in the United States?

Because they're not going to be available anymore. I mean, it's like, y yikes yikes i mean yeah i mean he he's he's predicted enough i mean biden's predicted this through actions in teleprompter you know i mean i was going to say his own words it doesn't exist um but i can't believe the air force academy tripped him up at graduation you guys that was kind of funny but seriously like that's he's just he's basically said like he did with ukraine hey we know they're gonna go and that's but the problem with some of that is it's telegraphing your moves always it's also misdirection it's also it's it's supposed to be both you're not telegraphing your next move you're telegraphing that you have options for your next

move right so we're telegraphing that we have options for your next move right so we're telegraphing that we we will start domestic production but we're also closing massive military deals with taiwan so we're going to ship them more weapons so which which thing are we actually doing which one is our true bet we don't know right it's poker again interesting i like that yeah this is the sophistication of real policy, not fucking armchair policymakers who sit around with a beer and a bag of Lay's potato chips and bitch about what we talk about. Yeah.

Real actual policy professionals are always asking themselves, how do we create a narrative that does more than one thing at once? It appeases the American people and sends a message of encouragement to our allies and undermines the confidence of our enemies and leaves us space to change our opinion in the future that's not easy you know what's interesting though too and we haven't even mentioned this throughout all this conversation but i don't know what to do with this go back four years five years something like that you had the left wing of washington dc loved talking all about russia the right wing loved talking all about china ukraine war breaks out right wing gets on board talking about russia over the past year we've now

seen the left wing get on board talking about china. In a world where we are so divided, we do seem to have both parties, not necessarily unanimously, but like by majority. And I'm not saying they're right or wrong. I'm saying it's very interesting that we have both parties supporting both quote unquote enemies. And we also have those two getting in bed together at the same time that this is all going on. I don't really know what to do with that, but that has been, if you're not looking at that the last three, four months, it's painfully obvious now. I think it's encouraging, man. Yeah, I mean. We've got two parts of a divided country agreeing. I mean, you even have Nancy Pelosi traveling. That was wonderful. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Yeah, when she went to Taiwan. When she went to Taiwan. Yeah. So you definitely, it's a spot where we can unite when we can't unite on anything else right now. And that's, I'm encouraged, as you are, that we're at least putting that out there, that we're a united front. Now, when they look inside and they're checking our intel services and doing the things that they do every day, which they're better at because they're committed to, even the stealing of proprietary information. They don't have any problem putting anybody here for 20, 25 years to do one little piece of that job. Can you imagine sending a Harvard student over, hey, you're going to China and you're going to – It just doesn't happen.

For 15 years. Yeah. First off, it doesn't happen because you're so recognizable being there. Here, you can come on in, bro. Everybody can come in, go work at a major research facility, and you can take anything home that you would like to take home. The thing that's really important, and you're grazing the top of it, right? The Trump policies against China were carried over by the Biden administration.

Nobody talks about that. They don't. They were adopted, rephrased, and expanded upon. You can see it in the executive orders. You can see it in the changing of the names of different priorities and policies. But the anti-China stance that Trump put in motion in 2019, I want to say it was, 2018,

has been adopted and expanded upon by the Biden administration. Yeah. It's pretty hard to argue. Yep. And you see that on foreign policy, both parties agree that that is an enemy.

And they still try to reduce the attention of the American people onto that enemy because they don't want us to freak the fuck out. They're reducing it? How are they reducing it?

Recently. Recently. Not a year ago. Now. Seems like they're talking about it all the time. Who's talking about it all the time? About what, China? Yeah. First of all, they changed their verbiage from separating or decoupling to de-risking

to decoupling, something like that. They're softening their verbiage. You see it being written about more and more in foreign news sources but what you still see american news sources focus on is russia ukraine domestic policy issues yeah yeah that's didn't apple just say they were going to have all their new iphones made in india instead of china i don't know i don't know i thought i heard that somewhere maybe steven can find it i don't know but that's also I mean look the COVID thing if if China was like trying to take advantage of that after it

happened some of that did backfire on them because people removed some of the supply chains from China oh yeah that's that's one of the big reasons that I don't subscribe to any of the conspiracy theories that China intentionally created COVID because all it did is highlight that when they shut down, the whole world shuts down. It doesn't make any sense that they would highlight that. They've been working for decades to get there. They knew that before we found out. Right? It's interesting.

Apple is planning to move a quarter of its iPhone production to India by 2025. That's two years. This would be up from 7% in 2023. Apple has already tripled its manufacturing in India since 2021. Well, mean that's there's some tangible numbers there those yeah and but who's india allies with russia and let's fill out the bricks brazil russia india china b-r-i-c-s how tight is? It's as tight as anything else, right? They argue over border disputes. They're in close trade partnerships, right?

They both buy tons of oil from Russia. So it's a pragmatic relationship. It's not based on ideology. It's based on pragmatic outcomes, right? So now India gets to partner closer with trade with China and partner closer in trade with the United States. What's to, like, India sees that as a net win. China sees that as a net win.

The United States is like, wow, we're kind of fucked, guys. What are we going to do? Does nobody else really just abuse human rights? Because we need an ally who abuses human rights to do more manufacturing. But we made it so that we won't trade with you unless you respect human rights oh damn he's on fire he's on fire i love it but

that i mean that's not that's uncomfortable conversation no one has out loud but it's absolutely the conversation what you don't see people aren't gonna be upset about but if they see it meaning like if it fucking happened in here everyone be up in arms and that's just how it is what's saudi arabia arabia's relationship with china this is something i have no idea you guys are don't look at me i don't know a ton about this either the whole i mean i i'm i i'm totally riffing because i love Because I love this shit, dude. I know you do. Your entire Kaleji Arab oil-rich area, right? Your UAEs, your Saudi Arabias,

your Kuwaits, Oman's, Bahrain's, that whole center of the world where oil comes out of the ground in the water, right? Where nothing but oil and fig come out of the ground, right?

That, or not fig, uh... Poppy? Oil and dates. Oil and dates. Right? That is, that was the first, probably most pragmatic place in the planet. Right? These, you're talking about Bedouin Arabs, who before 1955, had they had nothing there was no natural resource in the desert until the british came and found oil and then started signing deals with families to drill rights to their oils and that's when everything exploded right 1970

something was when you really saw the middle east transform they are absolutely super pragmatic they understand more than any of us that they have a natural resource and a natural resource has a limited time span and when that natural resources time span is up the whole world's going to leave them again because that's where they started if you think about it the same generation like the same generation is alive today in uE that was also alive when they had nothing there. So within one generation,

our grandfathers are old enough to have seen the entire transformation of their country from sand to Dubai. Yeah. Wow. Fast.

Fast. That's insane. So they know that as soon as that oil is gone, they're going to go right back to dust again, which is why they're trying to find a way to diversify their investments. So their goal is to maximize the resource while they have it. So what's their relationship with China?

Whatever is going to get them maximum resources, right? If you remember, again, ideology. What did Biden get elected on a campaign trail, campaign promises about what with Saudi Arabia? Do you guys remember? No U.S. production. Right, right, right. So basically he was just going to utilize them 100%. He had to call them or something after.

Yeah, his policy promises on his election campaign were that he's going to hold Saudi Arabia accountable for their human rights abuses, for their sexism, and for their price jiggering with oil. That lasted for about two and a half years until we sanctioned Russian oil and the world needed oil. And then he reached out to Saudi Arabia and said, hey guys, we need your help.

That was just over a year. It was super fast. Complete reversal of the policy promises he had running into office. guys, we need your help. That was just over a year. Yeah, it wasn't even that long. Complete reversal of the policy promises he had running into office. Saudi Arabia was like, sure, we're here for you. We know you were talking shit about us two years ago. It's okay, we talk shit about you every day. But we've got oil, you need it,

and we know if China needs oil, we got them too. And I mean, look, there is a real grip there. They got sincere MBSBS and particularly got sincere coverage on the Jamal Khashoggi thing. I mean, that was the most obvious, like killing a journalist on foreign soil. Insane. And nothing happened to him. The sanctions were minimal.

Other nations just said, very, very bad MBS. Don't do that again. He goes, yeah, bet. Okay. But it just goes to show you, you said it on a podcast a long time ago, but it really simplified the worldview

for me. GDP is the only thing that matters. GDP is what drives the world, man. Yeah. And every country knows that, and they learned it from watching us. We were listening to a country music song. What was that country music song? It was Rodney Atkins, Watching You. Watching You, yeah. whole kid watching his dad on both sides the whole song is about a kid watching his dad and the dad recognizing that the kid picks up his cool habits but also picks up his bad habits yeah and

he's like oh shit it's like an aha moment for dads my kid's watching me who sings it rodney atkins yeah it's a great song it's a really really sweet song, but it applies here too. Because the whole world has been watching the United States. So the shit that we've done that works, guess what they're going to start mimicking? Guess what they've been mimicking? Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. The global war on terror was a war that we invested in

and we forced our NATO allies to come along with us. You know who didn't participate in the global war on terror? China and Russia. So what did they do for 20 years while we were balls deep in afghanistan and iraq they built they built they hacked they progressed they spied they stole yep they did everything that we were too distracted to catch wow and then we pulled ourselves out pulled our heads out of our asses in 2022 and we were like oh shit we got a problem surprise surprise you pull your head out of our asses in 2022 and we were like oh shit we got a problem surprise

surprise you pull your head out of your ass and you see shit everywhere we we got a break for a few minutes because you have to do a phone call oh yeah let's let's stop right there we'll pick social credit scores haven't gone yo before you go into that my buddy eric zuliger oh message me he just messaged me uh right after we took our break and uh he just said yo can i pass a question off to one of the guys you're in the podcast with right now i have a i have a little bit of a turkish problem i got a little bit a little bit a little bit do you know the backstory of this kid no we'll get to it go ahead yeah i got detained again and ran i got detained again at an airport between Sarajevo

Sarajevo and Athens and I have no clue who to talk to not getting detained again I called the US embassy and they were like so what did you do I went to Sarajevo who the fuck goes to Sarajevo he said also they took my phone

for like two hours. So I'm assuming it's loaded with spyware. We just fucking want to see what your idiot is. You know. Erdogan rules. Erdogan rules, whatever that means. Well, Andy, you should probably get rid of that phone now. So that phone was cloned.

That phone's not covered in firmware or spyware. It's been cloned. That's been duplicated. That's things, yeah. And the numbers and the contact list and all that's whatever. He must fit a pattern of life profile that turned them on to him. Well, he was just on our podcast. He's coming on mine, but yeah.

Yeah, what's he do for a living? Where else has he been detained? So he is a journalist who was writing a book on countries that don't exist. So he traveled to journalist who was writing a book on countries that don't exist. So he traveled to all these crazy countries. He was living in Turkey for a while where he was a teacher. Kurdistan. Some autonomous region in... Liberland.

Liberland. Somaliland. Somaliland. I want you guys to picture if Jonah Hill, Michael Cera, and Seth Rogen had a baby, and it lived in Europe and traveled to a bunch of countries that aren't recognized, this is your guy. So is that a chunky white guy? Yes.

Chunky white guy with red hair? He's got curly hair. Almost. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Getting detained in Turkey. This is the second time he's been detained in Turkey.

He was detained once four years ago because they were on the five years ago because they were on a train and they said where are you from and he said kurdistan and apparently that was a big no-no in turkey oh yeah because you said he was just he was a teacher in turkey and a teacher in kurdistan kurdistan yeah yeah there's a lot of reasons he's detained in albania so uh first of all now he's an albanian citizen's a lot of reasons he's detained. And Albania. So, first of all, I would- Now he's an Albanian citizen. Where is he? Okay.

So, where is he from? From California. Yeah. Is he a U.S. citizen, too? Yes. U.S. citizen and gained Albanian citizenship? Correct. He went into the Peace Corps, which you would know something about.

Yes. That's how he ended up over there. They didn't want him, apparently. Yeah. Allegedly. They didn't want him. Well, they want him now so i would recommend a new line of work and a new home base other than turkey this dude needs to be operating out of spain

portugal yep he needs to stop going back and forth to turkey for sure like portugal because you never fucking never have an issue permissive it's a permissive place to be if he's going to be traveling to shit i think where he's going is essentially it's like wearing white pants and walking through mud got yeah so then everybody sees the mud on the pants because they're looking at his pants he needs to go to a country where they don't look at pants they look at shirts yep that's exactly right we could still do the same work but it will no more issues but if you're an investigative journalist of any type with a with experience in kurdistan where you are actively traveling in and out of areas of high tension which is all of the somali land and everything else where and then you have a footprint as a teacher in turkey that looks like a cover

and then you change your fucking citizenship if he's traveling in and out in the same name with two different passports sometimes he's american going in and out and sometimes he's albanian going in and out like he looks super super sketch he was also in the middle of he was in the middle of some sort of big protest in syria okay well there you go so he's really helping it stop going stop going to turkey stop going to go to fucking go to georgia if what he's looking for go to albania if you want a cheap place to operate if that's why he's in turkey he lives in albania why is he going to why is he in turkey because he's you know stop flying through istanbul what is yeah what's the reason behind the turkey

detained he's one of those guys who wants to put his finger on the scalding hot coffee long enough just to see when it burns well he's he shouldn't be texting gary yeah he's good yeah well yeah and that's the other thing if he's texting you with the phone you should just toss yours out too fuck yeah son of a bitch and please don't forward anything to andy oh my god it's probably some guy named like fucking conter on the other end of that text you're gonna get something here's what you're gonna text this fucking guy oh my god he shouldn't he's though so the good news is he shouldn't be in danger no definitely not in danger he'll get detained worst case scenario he might get detained for multiple days while an investigation gets

carried out but he's not gonna he's not gonna come up with dirty hands he's there's no gonna there's not gonna be any you know dirty laundry to hold him or put him under arrest. But his life is going to be very inconvenient if he keeps going to Turkey. The whole internet seems to think he's a spy. I genuinely don't. But there's published pieces of the fact that people think he's a spy.

No, it's comments. It's not published. It's comments. But still, it's out there. I genuinely... And I'm just a guy but I don't think he is and he well he did work

for private intelligence in the US for a while yes he was analyzing terrorist beheading videos open source yeah that's terrible

I feel bad for those guys poor Eric I hope you get out of there buddy anyway social credit scores so continuing on on

Eric that's 13 grand oh wait your part that's 26 000 um i guess the question is i think we've talked about this a little bit before but how extensive that fucking smell it's all still there. Yeah, it's still going. How extensive is that in China versus what we are seeing through the videos that purport to show how deep it is? How real is that? It's a real thing.

There's a cultural term for that. Oh, I lost it. It's like huizhou or something like that. Your actual social credit score. It's a very real thing. It's like our resume or like our our credit score that anybody I just I just I just bought property recently they ran a credit score credit check right it's a very real thing in China you can't leave one municipality to work in another

municipality you can't get accepted to college you can't get certain levels of jobs depending on this social score it sounds like some sort of travesty and total injustice to us but we have the exact same thing just somewhere else right and you have a credit score if you if you you're not going to get hired by a big company if you haven't got a four-year degree we have the same thing here but if you're talking about like they're trying to they're saying like oh we're going to move to a totally cashless society we're already very digital obviously but like you know once you get to things like that it's like oh if you don't if you have a bad carbon footprint they won't let you buy food at the food store or you know what i mean it could get to that type of dystopian thing sometimes i feel like

that stuff is a bit of an over alarm bell on social media it's not practical it's not practical it's the problem of social media yeah they comearm bell on social media. It's not practical. It's not practical. It's the problem with social media. Yeah. They come up with dystopian shit that's not practical. What is practical? What they do in the UAE and Saudi Arabia right now? They just auto-fine you. Can you explain that?

Yeah. You did a naughty thing. Your credit card is already tied to your national ID, which is already tied to your license plate. So when you speed too fast on the highway, they just auto bill you and pull money right out of your credit account. And it goes right into their tax account. You don't have to sign. There's no permission.

There's no nothing. It's like you just got pulled over, ticketed, and you went to court already to pay the fine, only you did it all in a half a second. They don't have an appeals court, do they? Yeah. It's not very good well it's crazy because we're i mean we're already doing this to a level with like insurance like with car insurance they make you put these trackers now in your glove box or like if you want a discount if you want to pay less for your car insurance well we'll just track you everywhere you go in your car and people say that they're going to do this with health insurance

where you want to discount your health insurance wear one of these eye watches and we'll track your heart rate 24 7 and you'll be able to get 20% off. Right, except we have a choice. That's the difference, yeah. We have the choice of being like, oh, then I'll just pay full price, right? But there they don't. Most people are going to take a discount.

Then that's okay. Yeah. That's the other thing where when you're chasing a budgetary life, poverty mindset, you'll cut any corner, and that's a predictable human behavior. So you can't blame the government for people doing what they're going to do anyways.

That's how business runs. But in the case of like, is China going to start denying people the ability to buy groceries? No. They're just going to bill them automatically and increase the GDP. You said two nasty words about Xi Jinping. That's 150 UN.

Boom. You have no say, no appeal. It's gone. That is dystopian. It's completely dystopian. It's also not America, so I don't give a fuck. Yep. It's interesting, though, the tracking.

Tracking, you know, just in that, in your instance, right, the car insurance, health insurance, gathering information. Oh, yeah. Right? Who knows who the fuck is doing that or who they're going to sell to exactly so that's that's the scarier part yeah the inconvenience of but hey i need to i need to save 200 bucks on my help on my car insurance

this year next year next okay you know i'll take a chance and roll the dice so what happened you jim you did the the investigation into the iPhone and San Bernardino. Involved, yes. I was involved in that management side. Right. So can you give the background on that real quick for people who aren't remembering that? It was San Bernardino killings, right? I mean, I don't know if we could bring it up, the terrorist killings on the road, whatever.

So can you – Stephen, right? Yeah. Stephen, can you throw it out? Long story short is um there's two things that happened there um first off they denied they actually did not recognize a federal grand jury subpoena to provide access not to provide records or subscriber information to provide access to this person's phone. This was Apple that I did?

This was Apple that I did. So I don't do business with Apple. Yep. Basically said, basically jumped us through hoops. Instead of just saying, holy shit, this is a terrorist act. He killed people, and we need to figure out whether or not he's going to kill some more. Killed Americans. Something else is going to happen.

He killed Americans. Or is there a network that's going to continue this plot? We didn't know. And they made you go through court to end up getting in. It took a while, right? Well, we went through court. We did go through court. It took longer than it should have.

In the meantime, we have people that could have hacked it in 30 seconds, including, what is it, the company. It could do it in two seconds. But which company is going to fight apple on knocking into their system the reason i bring it up so bright i think it's so bright the reason i bring it up is because it's such a horrible thing and it's a clear-cut terrorist clearly someone who was radicalized he had already done the act we everyone knew the shit you'd be able to find stuff on his phone i want to say there was shit i mean there was some was there some video i something i don't remember but either way i bring it up because i actually somewhat understand why tim cook did that and can

appreciate it as much as it annoys me because he's looking at it because it was a public story. This was something known to the public. Not that it should be different if it's not, but you have the public arguing over whether or not the government should be allowed to check a phone and it's a constitutional rights potential precedent if they do. So Tim Cook said, shit, I want to help with this, but if they do so tim cook said shit i want to help with this but if i do i set the precedent that apple gives up user data can you understand why he sent that through court and why that's a good thing in this country as opposed to yeah no i totally i totally get that but is we like we talked about a little bit earlier, would you cross the line if safety was in question? Would you do that?

That's the poison pill, and it's tough. I get it. It's tough. Did Tim Cook think about this in the perspective that you shared? I don't know. I don't know Tim Cook. I think he did. I don't know.

Was the owner of the iPhone a U.S. citizen? I think't know. I don't know Tim Cook. I think he did. I don't know. Was the owner of the iPhone a U.S. citizen? I think he was. Can you zoom in a little bit, Stephen, so we can read it? I think he was. So, yeah, that's – Go to the very top. Like he felt bad about – if he didn't, then he put it – Whatever.

Then he put on a good face. Yeah, he definitely put on a great save the day. Go back where it shows his name. Go down. Scroll down. See, that was it. It talks about the guy who owned it. You'll see his name in bold words.

Keep going. There it is. There he is. Enrique Martinez. Yep. Immigration. No, that's the... Yeah, that's...

He was... Was his name Farouk? Yeah, it's up a little bit. Oh, he converted to Islam. Yeah, Farouk. We could do a control search. There's the possibility of the third shooter, so... What?

See right here. That's the part. Oh, F-A-R-O-O-K. O-O-K. There he is. Yep. Farouk and Malik, Farouk's mother-K. O-O-K. There he is. Yep. Farouk and Malik, Farouk's mother. Yep.

So let's scroll up. Rizwan Farouk. Oh, scroll down a touch, just a touch. Right, Rizwan Farouk and Tashfeen Malik. So I don't remember which one it was the phone for. You can click on the name. Perpetrator on the right-hand side of the screen. Click on the name.

Yep. It was that guy. Yep. Yeah, so that's Farouk. Yep. It was that guy. Yep. Yeah, so that's Farouk. Yep. So it was his phone. Pakistan-American mass shooter. So Pakistani-American.

It's... Was a U.S. citizen, right? Was born in Chicago and was a U.S. citizen. His parents immigrated. All right. So this is, for me, and to this day, I do not support Apple because of this event. This is bullshit.

This is an American company choosing to protect its own marketing message publicly only because it was public. If this had happened outside of the public eye they'd have shared. They'd have helped. They don't protect user data.

Apple doesn't protect user data. That's a marketing message yes all they did here was they they interrupted investigation they slowed down the wheels of justice they exposed america more americans to the risk of a continued operation and they sent a clear message to other terrorists around the world use apple life use apple phones'll take care of you. That's exactly right. Fucking bullshit, man. We won't give you up. We'll never give you up. We've got your back.

I don't care if he felt bad. I can almost guarantee you that was either, that was a director of like marketing or a board or something that was like, oh guys, I don't know how we're going to be able to do this.

Our share price is going to stack. We just got done promising all these people that we're going to protect user data. That's baloney. And that's why I will, I just do not have good things. I have nothing nice to protect user data. That's baloney. And that's why I will. I just do not have good things. I have nothing nice to say about Apple. I do not spend my money on Apple.

I will not spend my money on Apple until Apple changes this kind of shit. What kind of phone do you use? Android. The green techs. That's why our group techs are all green techs. And they wouldn't do the same thing? Would they block the wheels of justice? When they do, I'll go to fucking Nokia.

I'll go to Huawei. That escalated quickly that's beautiful yeah i i just don't like i fully understand your anger maybe i don't know that this is a good parallel but like i completely agree with you that behind the scenes they're passing shit like this all the time but the public doesn't know about it so like okay but when the public does know about it so they're like okay but when the public does know about it now it's something that is

I'm going to make up a word here but precedentable in court so would you rather I don't know this is a good parallel

but would you rather see the serial killer kill eight people or ten if you had the choice obviously right and it's a bad one

for this because we are talking about a literal serial killer that they're protecting on the sentence so i i recognize that but like the precedent publicly i get where they're doing that because at least this is immiscible in court the other ones we're never going to find out about and they just trample i mean you've seen it with what snowden exposed they just do it behind the scenes you know and they it it might be illegal but they find a legalese way with you

know the powers and branches against your right to privacy well how does in the eyes of the law what is an individual's right to privacy when they are being investigated right once they once they or actively in the process of committing a terrorist act but what is it what's the answer like if if i'm arrested right now on suspicion of drug charges what privacy rights do i have that the investigation cannot penetrate i don't think as part of this investigation i don't think anything there's none right you could do yeah i mean some things you're gonna have to get a subpoena but that's turn around because any place you don't have apple fighting you back any place place there's evidence, the law should be able to reach into those places where there's evidence. Absolutely.

Free reign. I feel like this is your unprecedented or whatever it is, right? Your made up word. Yeah, yeah. The precedent, the whole argument about precedence is wrong here. citizen breaks an american law if anybody breaks an american law then it is the right of that person to be proven guilty or innocent in a court of their peers which means any and all evidence that's available should be brought to bear not if it breaks technically i'm just saying technically not if it breaks constitutional code to do it as That's what we just said. There's no privacy law that applies to the person

who's being investigated. That's right. It's evidence. Your privacy can't block access to evidence. If we're actively listening to your phone, we've got a different standard. Because you're not breaking the law right now. Right.

And that's a whole other process. But if you go out, if you two go outside and start shooting people, and I can get to your phone to make sure that you're not going to shoot the next, or how you're talking, where you're going next. Right, that's very different. We need to get that. So you're saying if you have already provably beyond a reasonable doubt

with full evidence committed the crime, you now no longer have those rights. Nope, nope, nope. As soon as you are under suspicion of a criminal act. Well, see, now hold on a second. That's not right. Technically, we live in a world where if you catch a serial killer and the cop breaks the law to do it with something that is not probable cause, they have to be let go.

So search and seizure. What's one exception to search and seizure? I don't know. What is it? Emergent circumstances. So we, without that ability to do that you're not violating the fourth amendment certain seizure amendment but you're saying this is a problem we could have further death and destruction it is an emerging problem that we

were not previously aware of until this moment that's i got bottom line even with regards to uh an utterance during somebody's dying and they say i fucking killed that person right you can now use that piece or danny killed that person and that's a good thing man that's a good thing because if if dick von dyke walks in and he's like i you beat my child in the backyard yesterday and you were like i did not beat your child and he comes in with a police officer police officer's like we got to investigate you to prove your guilt or your innocence as soon as you say okay that's cool but you can't look at my phone there could be evidence on the phone that protects you from the charges being presented to you. So a truly innocent person of a crime is like, have anything you want.

The only people who have something to hide are the people who are guilty. Real quick to all my Discord people out there. The Julian Dory Discord is officially live. I put the link down in the description below. So go hit that, join the community and say what's up. There's all kinds of features in there and I look forward to hearing from you guys. Let's get it popping. Now, second question, because this is what Americans are really afraid of. They're really afraid if somebody comes in and accuses you of stealing from them, you say, I didn't steal from

you. Here's my phone. And then on, in reviewing the phone, the police officer sees that you might be embezzling money from your business, from your job. In that case- Or pictures of child porn on there, right? So now- In that case, what happens? Yeah. I mean, in that circumstance, we stop, we seize, we get the court order, we write it up the way it's supposed to be written up. We look and we go forward with the same predication with regards to the rights of that person. So now we've got to read the Miranda rights. Maybe it's not about the embezzlement or the theft. Maybe it is about you're actively taking child porn pictures and sending them around.

We'll make you aware of it, but it doesn't mean that you're off the hook. Because now if we grab that phone, start just searching through it, start charging on it, it's going to be a problem, but it's probably not going to happen overnight it's going to say now the charges that's what that's what american people are really afraid of what they're afraid of is that if their privacy is looked into something right something's going to come up breaking some rule and they're going to get caught right right people don't realize that like if if he's hunting down a case and it's a child porn case, and he wants to close the case. He wants to win that case. That's the objective.

So if he finds your phone, and he searches your phone, and there's no kiddie porn on your phone, but there's a text message that says you're cheating on your wife, he's like, I don't really care about that. That does not get me promoted. Taking down a child porn ring does. and you're not part of that ring here's your phone back have fun cheating on your wife have fun embezzling your boss i'm gonna go find my child porn ring and tear it down that's right no more no morality police on that piece but if i find that they're planning to rob a bank tomorrow that's it doesn't mean i just take it and start i could start acting on it but i'm going to take it and say sir you know we're going to hold this here read the miranda on that portion of it go through the process which is an immediate process that was the that was the shit-ass part of what apple did

is not just going i mean you could see i mean they went through iterations of court visits and subpoena and court order issues and they still still were like, meh. And in the meantime, we could have cracked that phone. It was cracked in two seconds. I think we might have cracked it. I mean, we might have been in, but just waiting. What were those conversations like? You guys hop on a conference call with Tim Cook? Because you guys were obviously very frustrated.

I mean, general counsel gets involved and just distracts and diverts and deflects because that person's listening to the boss he's listening to the guy who is the guy right so it's lawyers talking basically lawyers talking basically but in the meantime you got he's got a board to to deal with right so again just what we're talking about that board is putting pressure on that ceo so the decisions he made which i'm sure he regrets at this point, they're on his back, and the board just says, what an idiot you are, or great job. And they are using it, to be clear. They are using it to sell their yay privacy thing years later, and I'm not naive.

Yeah, it's ridiculous. They're the dwarf among midgets with that. They may be a little better than some of the other guys, but they're still breaking it left and right it's it there's fourth amendment is a complicated piece but in that particular instance it's not you know we've got a circumstance where people can either a serious bodily injury or death is the consequence of not being able to obtain that information. So he would rather have fought that exigent circumstance argument and have a little day in court the next day than just say, you know what, I see what you're saying, let's go. General counsel there, let's go, let's do it,

and here's the reason why. You explain that to the American people, 80% of them are going to go, get it, totally get it. 20% are going to be like, let's fuck with this guy. Is the Patriot Act still alive and well? Yeah, I think so. I think so. I'm sure it's changed.

Yeah, definitely. And again, I'm a fan, right? Because here's the thing. We create lots of noise. Bad guys love to hide in the noise. If you don't suck up the noise and then try to find the signals that are buried inside it then bad shit happens You can't just ignore the fact that bad people are hiding in good places You can't just ignore it. You have to go into it and you have to collect

It's the thing we never hear about anyone getting getting caught under the Patriot Act. I don't think you don't hear about it Yeah, I don't think you will um that course not public. I mean bottom line is if if you're a terrorist or you're not you shouldn't be offended either way if you're a bear be a grizzly on both sides period you got to keep in mind that whenever whenever you have a success in law enforcement or a success in intel when you publicize that success you're sending a message about your methods and your sources to the other criminals who are out there doing it yeah so if you got five terrorist cells operating in five different cities and then you arrest one of them in san antonio and then you publicize the case in san antonio the other four cells are like oh shit

he probably got caught because he made the wrong phone call or he did this with his housing records or whatever else so then they clean that part up of their operation and you run the risk of not being able to shut down the other four it's better to not what's what's the point when you're a true public servant you don't do it for the praise you don't do it for recognition from the american public you do it because you're keeping your country safe you don't need anybody's approval such a good point it's amazing all the things that changed permanently in this country because of islamic terrorism and it's one thing you don't hear about anymore nobody in the media nobody in politics talks about islamic terror terrorism anymore yet we still have the patriot act we still have airport security you still have is territory TSA you still have extremist territory yeah we're saying they don't talk about it as much

anymore yeah it's because of the emergency powers right they take their powers from emergencies and those powers never go away you know what it it's to borrow a phrase from my friend from my friend Remy Adeleke he could he said something like there's the pill in the cake and so i'm trying to look at this from both perspectives now because i see where you guys are coming from and i'm not saying i agree i'm also i'm really like punting this one i'm not saying i disagree this is a really tough one for me i'm looking at the other side the people listening right now who may be arguing like my rights my privacy and i hear that as well and i say when you talk about things and use words like to protect us your safety to live

that's the cake and then the pill you put in the cake so the kid eats the fucking pill is you say this is what we got to do to do it but no worries i don't care about you know whether you're cheating on your wife or not when I find it. And you know what? And I've said this to you on a podcast before directly, Jim. I believe you. I don't think either of you care about that. I think you guys are good guys. You guys are my friends off camera, and I value that a lot.

But I also know these are big organizations, and when you give these powers, you give them to everyone. Well, you set that precedent. So all it takes is that one guy who's a total fucking jerk-off to take advantage of this stuff and i'm not saying he'd care about like whether some asshole is cheating on his wife i'm thinking we could think of better examples than that but then you have things that veer into all right we are just openly accepting that the constitution is being trampled on i think that's a little bit of an extreme take, accepting that the Constitution is being trampled on.

Trampled is a strong word, but the Constitution is at least being violated. That's a better word. In what way? I'm sorry. I'm losing it. Yeah. When you give the government the ability to say, let me get a twofer for this, if I were to come across it, which the Constitution is supposed to say you don't. The Constitution does not say that you're allowed to do a crime

as long as you're not caught. No, but it does say you have the right to privacy, and I'm going to mess up some words, so let's not go too deep, and that if there are crimes that are discovered as a result of a violation of these rights, that is anti-constitutional. It does say that.

Let's look at it this way. If law enforcement took my phone with no subpoena or nothing else and started just scrolling through it and taking notes, all right, he did steal two grand here, did steal, and then, okay, thank you so much, sir, and then went out and fucking charged it, that's a different story. Violation of privacy.

Absolutely. But if I come in and I know that you use your phone in order to run a heroin ring, sales ring, right? And I say, here it is. And here's the proof because we've got six sources that have bought from you, including an undercover cop. Here it is, right? And okay, no worries. That subpoena will be scoped out to that piece. However, if during that course I'm looking through and I'm like, holy shit, this guy's going to kill his mother tomorrow. Right.

I am. You're not. You're not. You have no constitutional protection. Yeah. I'm going to go and go back to the judge and say, we, your honor, we have to increase the scope here because this is what I found. Then it gives me the opportunity to to look at that gain my independent corroboration based on that right build another investigation sure he's a drug dealer he's

not predicated to have committed murder but now there's a statement in there knowing that i have the obligation to do that no violation of fourth amendment because i went through the process but i stop everything at that point i I don't say, you motherfucker, I'm going to interrogate you and I'm going to kill your mother tomorrow. That's people don't understand the due process. It's very strict. It's very stringent. You know, it truly is.

The thing that protects you is not the constitution. The thing that protects you is the due process. The fact that when he sees evidence on your phone that makes him think you're going to kill your mother or your mother-in-law, he then begins a new process to corroborate independently and confirm whether that is true or not and that you get put in front of a panel of your peers for a judgment for that and and you planning to kill your mother isn't even a crime it's just it's the it's the possible premeditated effort of, right?

So it has to be investigated. It has to be pursued. It has to be. Because if we don't, we're actually violating the constitutional rights of the mother-in-law who's trusting us to protect her. And I'm Mirandizing you. So the first thing I'm saying is, look, don't, I'm, me personally, and probably most that we know, don't say anything.

Don't, don't talk. You know, don't say anything. Don't talk. You know, I want you to have this right under the Sixth Amendment for counsel. So I'm going to Mirandize you towards that. You've already, I've already shown you all I need to know on this portion of gaining the information. The heroin ring. We're good. And I'm going to arrest you for that, but I'm going to Mirandize you when I put the cuffs on. This one here is different. This one here is different.

This one here is different. Listen, shut your mouth. Call your lawyer. And then we're going to run through the process. We're going to secure all the things we would go through naturally processed. But should I just start pursuing that potential murder for hire? We're losing that. It's going away.

I'm going to need to away i'm gonna need to listen to this back afterwards to make sure i have it all straight you may have convinced me on the san bernardino one you might because we know he did what he did correct you might have convinced me on that what about applying it though to something like not what snowden did leaking out that's a separate conversation but the thing he leaked which is stellar wind was just said using some provisions of the patriot act and then also some of the stuff we talked about earlier like when comey went in the hospital with ashcroft and they were using like underground stuff that provisioned the government to look through any cell records of anybody that is good because where are the bad guys hiding among the good people you're not gonna find cake you're not gonna find the the bad guy doing bad things unless you look

at all the data right that's the thing and the snowden invest all the snowden invest, all the Snowden stuff, that was contentious even in NSA. That was contentious even in secret courts. They couldn't figure it out. And let's not forget where we were in time. We were still reeling from the deaths of 9-11. It was contentious. Nobody, it wasn't clear cut. Nobody knew for sure what was going on.

It was untapped. It was unknown force for everybody right we were all figuring our way out yeah it was new right so like did snowden do the right thing the wrong thing i'm kind of tired of even people asking that question because you're taking it out of context i'm not you're not you're not most people out there every fucking person out there who thinks that snowden did the right thing is completely blind to the context of the time at the context of the time america was terrified that thousands more people would be killed in a mass attack that could have been prevented 2 997 people died in on american soil

in less than 24 hours think about that number dude do you know how many people died in on american soil in less than 24 hours yep think about that number dude do you know how many people died in all of the global war on terrorism i think 7 000 yeah so just a little more than one more than a third yep of all the deaths in all 22 years the global war on terrorism happened in 24 hours in new york Yeah. Right? That's fucking crazy. And things have changed. If you were present during that time, immediately after 9-11, for years after, you had terrified American average Joes calling our offices to tell us that, in fact, there's a man that lives next door. How long have you known him? 15 years, but I know he's planning the next attack. Fear.

Positive. Or a gas station guy. Does that make it right to violate people's privacy? Absolutely not. That doesn't make it right. But you have to understand that in order for us to evolve to the next layer of security, we had to get into some dirty stuff and figure out like, how do we do this lawfully? That's not something that you figure out in 10 minutes. No. That's something that takes time, multiple attorneys, multiple specialists, multiple experts saying, are we doing the right thing? Maybe we should pull it back here. Maybe we should push it it forward here that's why there's a break between confidential information classified information sensitive information and public

record not because it's going to stay that way permanently but because until we figure our out the last thing we need is the american people to also weigh in their two cents on what's going on right now yeah because you know what the average american citizen isn't burdened with protecting the lives of other other american citizens that's our burden to carry we take that burden very seriously you don't have to worry about keeping your neighbor safe you only have to worry about keeping your family safe you don't worry about keeping fucking anybody safe we used to go to bed thinking about how to keep strangers that we will never meet safe all the time.

Continuously. That's why we become so unflinchingly patriotic, because if I had to worry about keeping every global citizen safe, I'd be fucking stressed out. At least I can cut that back and be like, all I care about is American citizens. I want to keep Americans safe. Jim, you were there that day when the towers came down. You were on the ground right there.

Yeah. Yikes. Where were you? So meeting with New Jersey State Police Maritime Unit early morning, young trooper sees what he thought was what we all thought. SESTA flew into the accident, heart attack, whatever. He flies in. He just said to us, do you mind if we take the meeting on the water? Only because my dad works in that building.

Of course. Yeah, let's do that. So we start going over, and shit, everything broke loose. So second plane comes over the top, smashes. We realize we're going to war at that point. That's, I think, what I said. We're going to war, and people are dying, and then pulling up to the Staten Island Ferry Terminal

and working through that and getting downtown and being in Burger King's basement when the towers came down. So I was in fifth floor, you know, five floors down. Like Church Street? Yeah, and I just said, yeah, Church Street. I just said, ah, that's it. I'm fucking dead. I really did.

And then trying just to get out, just to get out and not be able to see and not be able to feel and then knowing that thousands of people were dead. We figured 35, 35 you know we were like 25 35 000 people because it was early it was early enough but wall streeters are in they're in they're working they're going so they can come back home at a reasonable time beautiful day the whole deal so um absolutely a feeling of the i you know obviously pearl harbor and those other things we weren't around for but that's what it felt like and um you know, obviously Pearl Harbor and those other things we weren't around for, but that's what it felt like. And, you know, it just became, hey, there were people that just jumped in and helped and there were people that just ran from it.

But you were also going to work right away. Yeah. I mean, I was in, I don't think I got out of New York for four days. Right. So, you know, trying to pile up and figure out what was going on. And did they have like, they had like those temporary offices like set up in garages and stuff, right? Well, the interesting part was that the meeting that day was to set up an emergency kind of command post at the Battery Park Station, Coast Guard Station.

So that was what the meeting was about. And then it just breaks out, right? So yeah, I mean, it was intensely crazy across the board. You've told the story though about September 15th, 2001 on my podcast before and how you arrested the Egyptians. I forget what was their role again? So they were what we consider a supply cell, basically to Americanize those that were coming over through clothing, through passports, through jobs, through pay stubs, through tax returns. That was their position. Quiet New Jersey beach. Very.

I mean, Seaside Heights. I'll say it now. Seaside Heights, great little seasonal town, small apartment, 10 of them living in there, working on the boardwalk for two and a half years, working at the- Grocery store? The Acme that separates Seaside Heights from Seaside Park around that turn there. So we just get a call on Wednesday. Call on Wednesday, 12th. Hey, these guys have never missed a paycheck in like six years, some of them. They're not here.

They're not coming in. I don't know if it makes a difference, but they're Middle Easterners, and we want to – so we get the information, go down, and I told you. I mean, the hair on the back of my neck, first time in a long time. I haven't had that since overseas time where the hair on the back of my neck goes up, and I'm like, holy shit. Oh, they were a deal. Yeah, they were looking.

I mean, they were doing whatever. We found we found 450 000 in cash in backpacks and every piece of eddie bauer clothing you've ever seen in every size and no one ever heard about this one and the reason two new cars the reason i the reason i bring this up is to actually kind of make your guys point for you i'll bet in those three and a half days after the towers come down when investigations like this start so you said it was the day after we got the call there was never a conversation in that office that said can we talk about these guys constitutional rights real fast before conducting a raid to save lives you know it's interesting so i'll tell you this right so detainment is what we need to do at the time and we didn't look at a damn thing we did call back the u.s attorney's office and we got a really good dude who um you know just

questioned us on the whole thing i want to see pictures see what's going on i want to know what's happening wrote up that search warrant quickly i'm not saying it was one where we were hey over time you know like normally it's over time you know you're arguing for a week to get a search warrant well i don't really like it. It was really red brick. It wasn't white brick on the front. And they'll do that to you, slow you down a little bit. This one was like, hey, go. And once we started to go, and we knew.

You line things up in your mind's eye. You got people sitting in different spots. You're seeing what they're doing, trying to talk to each other. We're trying to separate. It was intense. It was an intense time. We found weapons. And as an American american citizen fog of war

moment after that happens but we did the right thing with yeah we did the right thing tomorrow no problem that happens tomorrow yeah you why would we intentionally slow down a search warrant exactly doesn't make any sense yeah here's the the deal is if he would have showed up at the apartment and everything would have been kosher no no backpacks pre-planned to Americanize people traveling in and out, no cash reserves, no weapons. If it would have just been 10 hardworking Egyptian immigrants or 10 American documented Egyptians legally, no case, no arrests, no problem, right? No problem at all. legally no no case no arrests no problem right you don't dispatch law enforcement yeah slowly to protect people's privacy no you got to get them out there let them do their job they're there to enforce the law no law is broken nothing to enforce thank you very much for letting us inconvenience you exactly right you know i think about this this case so 50 2015 so you know 14

years after bernardino what what would that what would he have done what would cook have done september 15th yeah what would he get oh he get there's no question he gives it so we forget we don't forget but people forget right because they're not in it like just like a vietnam vet will not forget that he wasn't welcomed home yeah when he came home yeah now the rest of us are like man all right, I'll say, hey, you know, how many times have you corrected? Thank you for your service. Nope, welcome home is what you say to a Vietnam.

Okay, sorry about that. Right, so I've learned that. But it's the same kind of sense of being in the middle of it, and we never have – the time has not suppressed our sense of urgency. But for a lot of people, it has. And I often worry, now that I'm out of the mix, we're both out of the mix, I often worry that is there enough people with eye on the ball? Or is it just nothing's – nobody's tried anything,

therefore we're just like, okay, we're doing the best we can here's the the truth is that we left when all the cadre that were our peers and the cadre that had kind of greeted us to come in all knew that sense of urgency all knew the taste of of imminence so when we left federal government we took that with us that sense of imminence absolutely that impulse that need to get it done and get it done right and get it done now and now we apply it to the business sector and the customers that we serve love it because they're so accustomed to working with employees and colleagues and attorneys and everybody who's like no problem right now we'll wait another day we'll wait another week we'll wait a couple more hours doesn't have to

be done right now right we come in and we're like you don't know what comes tomorrow you don't know what comes in an hour you don't know you're going to be breathing in 15 minutes the urgency is always there that doesn't mean that we're going to, you know, we're anxious and we're flipping ourselves out. We're not able to sleep at night. It means that the superpower, the thing that differentiates you against your competition doesn't have to be fancy technology.

It doesn't have to be 12 degrees. It can literally just be that you take other people's problems seriously, perhaps even more seriously than they take their own problem and then you get it fixed you give them a solution you get them through it and you're done for businesses that literally translates into profit getting a business's problem solved quickly literally turns into money we deal with ultra high net worth people who have like not seen family been been separated from family or had legal issues or whatever else they haven't seen their their daughter in 15 years

seven years or they suspect that their ex-wife ran away with their old partner who knows what we deal with people that have these incredible life issues and they've gone to other companies and they've been like hey can you connect me with my daughter and the companies are like sure we'll we'll need about 90 days to do that and then 90 days later they're like it's been a little bit more of a challenge than we thought it was we roll in there we're like you haven't talked to your daughter i want you talking to her now yeah so we work our asses off and close that gap in days and then people look at us like we're mutants of some kind of and i was like no dude if it was my daughter,

I'd want it tomorrow. It doesn't make it any different to me that it's your daughter. Right? That's the way we just took that out of some of the darkest years in U.S. history, and now we apply it in the business world. And it works. We're not super smart guys, right? We're just committed to doing the best that we can

for every American we meet. Amen to that, man. Did you see any changes? Because you came into the CIA in 2007. Is that right? Did you see like hardcore or not even hardcore. Did you see clear changes when like the administration turned over from Bush to Obama? Yes.

Really? Yeah. Clear changes during that change. I think the big changes for us I saw 2007, 2008, 2009, the changes happened slowly, right? So that first few years I was in, there was a certain pace, a tempo, right? And then 2010, 2011, 2012, that tempo changed. And then by the time I left, it was changing again, right? And I wasn't even there at 16 when all the trump stuff started taking place so there's absolutely a change of flow in the direction of culture prioritization clearances you know what you're willing to spend money on what you're not willing to spend money on uh and this stuff it's just a change so with with the obama years we were very much focused on on um the asia pivot and transitioning so that our operations were less focused on counterterrorism and more focused on emerging threats.

Because East Asia was an emerging threat in 2010, 11, 12. Right now, it's a clear and present threat. So if that doesn't give you some comfort that CIA is doing their fucking job, 2022, it was a threat. 2010, we started shifting to meet that threat you see what i'm saying that's good that's that's that's the way professionals do it man but when you're yeah when you're a fucking armchair analyst you don't pull your head out of your ass until it's already an imminent threat and then you're like no one's doing their job no dude people were doing their job for decades before you pulled your head out of your ass what

about for you when you have a situation where, unlike in the CIA, when a new administration comes in, obviously Tenet was an exception, but usually the director of the CIA changes and stuff, but yours doesn't necessarily do that. I don't think it did in 2008. We had two different, you know, Louis Freeh, the best director I worked for. Bob Mueller changed the bureau, So he wanted to become administratively perfect. What does that mean? That was his goal. So in other words, and we're seeing, honestly, I got to say at this point, we're seeing some of the benefit of that with the

actual documentation of source meetings, the documentation of investigations that was kind of loosey-goosey my first couple years. So Mueller changed that over, but we also took our eye off the ball with many of the crime problems, many of the threats. Like what? We kind of lost. You mean organized crime. It just became kind of the summer of the shark thing.

Like, ah, there's no more organized crime. Summer of the shark. Yeah, you know what I mean? So DARPA sharks. Yeah, DARPA sharks. But it became less important, and what became more important was tightening the noose on the cases we already knew we had tight already. And I couldn't believe that. You know, there was questions asked. I think we're the FBA now, the Federal Bureau of Administration. We're no longer investigating. We're just making sure of what we do. And that led to changes in our administrative policy, when you could open a case, how long you had in order to do, you know, like an assessment versus an investigation, what that meant, what the tools that you were allowed to use during the assessment phase versus the investigation stage. It became, to a lot of hard chargers that were new, it became, oh, I thought we were the knights in shining armor.

We're just, we have to prove, we have to prove a case before we get a search warrant. That's what it became. So you had that period of time terrorism was always rock stuck you know after 9-11 terrorism was rock steady i mean we're we learned our lesson and like i've said before many of the counter-terrorism agents pre-9-11 were the broken toys we talk about that so oh you know whatever and i told funny stories but they're true you know, whatever. And I told funny stories, but they're true. You know, we called at 2 p.m. and say, hey, where are you? Oh, shit, I was cutting my lawn. I mean, this is on 9-11.

Yeah. Oh, my God. But if you take it forward, I think what Ray has done is has just buried his head in the sand. I'm not going to answer questions. I'm not going to move the management and leadership forward. Good luck finding out. I'll be gone in a couple years, so take care of me. Hopefully, I'll be gone sooner than that.

Public servants are in a rough place right now because American citizens have so much information about what is being done at all these different levels of government. And I say information because they don't have facts. They have some facts and lots and lots of garbage. Speculation, accusation, theories. So everybody feels this need to form an opinion. I remember, and I'm not saying it was better back in the past than it is right now, but we do need to find a way to evolve past this garbage phase

that we're in right now. But I remember when my parents were still parenting me, they had a certain level of like, they're doing what they have to do to keep us safe. They weren't, my dad wasn't up late reading tabloids about FBI. My mom wasn't like, you know, watching every documentary there was

about all of CIA's illegal operations in Colombia. They had better shit to do, right? And they didn't bother with trying to police IRS, NSA, NRO. They didn't care. They were like, they're doing what they have to do. My job is to do what I have to do. And right now I have to raise you. Now we live in a world where people can basically be taking a dump

and scrolling through TikTok, and now they're all upset about what's going on with chinese exploding helmets right true though man yeah so they they feel the need to be involved in shit that they know nothing about and they don't even understand that they don't know nothing about it because they believe the sources of information that they get because they don't know how to vet sources because they're not professional intelligence officers they're not professional just national security officers what was that what was that analogy you're making with the summer of the shark where did that come from so so you know the sharks were pre-9-11 right so now we've had another some i think we had another summer of the shark this past summer dar Darpa sharks. Yeah, Darpa sharks. Ukrainian sharks. Shark attacks all over the place, summer of 2001.

Why? Because they're getting reported. People were saying, holy shit, don't go near that bait. They show video and everything else. Now it's drone shots. And all of a sudden, 9-11 happens. And it was almost like, stop getting reported. That's the only reason.

It kept happening. They stopped biting. Sharks didn't say, like, fuck, these people are going through a lot. We're going to give them some space. You know what I mean? Because, I mean, it sharks didn't say like fuck these people are going through a lot we're going to give them some space you know what i mean because i mean it just just didn't happen and and kind of the same thing with organized crime yeah you know it's not that mobsters weren't being mobsters i mean there's a little bit of a difference with the code and bullshit that that is the respect yeah okay you know whatever but it's not that they weren't doing the exact same things just that we didn't have interest or time or we put the worst of the worst

on those squads it's called reporting bias yeah it's another one of the reasons that you see so much reporting around military bases of ufos does that actually mean ufos are more interested in military bases or that the people and the tools at military bases are more observant than the people and the tools in no-name Kentucky. So the reporting bias is the same thing. It's another example of the opportunity cost we're talking about with Ukraine. You spend $75 billion to do one thing, which means you're not spending $75 billion to do this other thing. You're dedicating all your officers to counterterrorism. That means you're not dedicating those officers to organize crime what is your opinion on the government agencies controlling

the media narrative of like the top media outlets like kind of like we talked about last night i know you know i know it's it's it's hard sometimes hanging out with you guys because you spend so much time worrying about government agencies controlling the narrative, government agencies controlling the tools and people being plants and people being whatever. If you had any idea how limited budgets were at the federal government

and how insignificant the public's opinion is to those government agencies, then you would get a sense of why they wouldn't spend any time trying to plant a youtube plant that gets lots of views and controls a narrative on a channel that's controlled by google that doesn't matter so that is that our secret government agencies in charge do they care about the media spin no they don't need to care about the media spin

what do you mean no they don't care well care. Well, there's no impact on national security. The cost would be outrageous. Some stories, there's probably impact on national security. Absolutely. Like Jack Murphy's story. I disagree on that. You can disagree all you want. You weren't on the inside.

It doesn't matter to us. To stand in the way of the American population's access to information, the blowback is so significant if you get caught and the cost is so outrageous you'd never be able to justify the results you've heard him say it already today right it's so much easier to just selectively release information and let the media do the predictable thing and run it to ground that's way more effective like the like the uap yeah yeah sure okay so that's the way that we do it it's like oh we've got 15 secrets well what are we going to do about these 15 secrets well two of these aren't really that secret and if we let them loose

like we'd send a message to the chinese remember the four things i was telling you about you got to think about yeah what's the impact now what's the impact to your adversary how are you going to walk it back that's the way we think it's so much to your adversary? How are you going to walk it back? That's the way we think. It's so much easier to control that when you just choose to let something out rather than when you try to shape and control a narrative. That's what it is. What about Jack Murphy's story

that I told you about yesterday? I've told this story at Nazim on the podcast, but he's the ex-Army Ranger guy who did that reporting on the NATO allies that were running covert operations, sabotage operations in Russia. He got a bunch of former CIA people to be his sources on the story.

And there was like probably 12 of them, I think, that confirmed the story and all corroborated the story. And then he spent a year writing it and was going to publish it in one of the top two... New York Times. ...newspaper publications. I don't know if it was the New York Times or not. He never confirmed which one it was. Oh, he didn't? But it was one of the top two New York Times newspaper publications. I don't know if it was the New York Times or not, but he never confirmed which one it was.

Oh, he didn't? But it was one of the top two ones. And they were ready to publish the whole entire story, press the publish button, but the editor at that publication said, we have to make one more call to the deputy director of the CIA to confirm it and get his take on it. He got a three-way call to the deputy director.

The deputy director, who has an off-the-record record agreement with that publication said, this is all false. So instead of just adding a blurb at the end of it, saying the CIA denies any of this stuff, the, the agreement they have with the CIA is if they disagree with it, they say it's false, they cannot publish it. So they kibosh the whole story. So first of all, you don't know if there's an agreement or not, if it's not a written agreement. So somebody told you somewhere, you got the idea that there's an agreement, but you never actually saw an agreement. So that's not vetted information. That's what the editor said. They have the editor told him on the phone that they have an agreement with them. So either way, there's if they have an agreement, that's the

editor's call. That's a business owner's call. And I don't blame him. You know what I would, if I was the chief editor, the editor in of the new york times or whatever the hell washington post whatever it was the last thing i want to do is publish a story that's then going to blow back and make me look like i'm an ass with evidence that's contrary to what the author just wrote and whatever else and look i understand i understand the it's important to keep covert ops off the front pages of the news that's not what i'm saying what i'm saying is is that he had a single source piece of information. He had Jack Murphy saying, this is what happened. And Jack Murphy bringing those 12 to the table.

That's not the same as independent corroboration. That's exactly right. It might have, listen, it probably happened, right? It probably happened, but there's no pussy ass editor of the New York Times that's going to sit there and say, Oh, let's go. I'm a fucking courageous warrior. Bring me one piece of corroborative information. I'm going to wreck my fucking life. Professional journalists are saying, I need corroborative information.

I can't take a single source. A single source that brings me 12 other sources could all be collapsed. He had multiple. He had over 12 sources. He brought them. He brought them to the table. They weren't independently corroborated through their own... The editor-in-chief didn't go do it. Exactly. The editor talked to each one of those sources directly. They were brought by

Jack Murphy. He's the developing guy. He's bringing those. But in fairness, the editor's only source was the current deputy director. Bingo. Whose job is to keep covert action off the front page of the newspaper? So what would you do if you were the Right, but in fairness, the editor's only source was the current deputy director. Bingo. Yeah. So he had one- Whose job is to keep covert action off the front page of the newspaper.

So what would you do if you were the editor-in-chief? I would do the same thing. Then it's not- But do you think that's a good thing? Let's go back to the original question. Your original question was, how do you feel about secret government agencies controlling the narrative? There was no secret government agency controlling the narrative. It was an editor-in-chief choosing not to publish a story.

It was not secret government agency controlling the was an editor-in-chief choosing not to publish a story it was not secret government agency controlling the narrative you see the difference it is in a it's not in a direct way but it isn't an indirect way the government agency wasn't controlling it at all the the editor could have made his own call he could have risked his career he could have risked his paycheck he could have done anything he wanted to but he didn't that's not because cia said no the cia in fact according to your own story what the deputy director said is all of this is false if if the editor-in-chief had enough evidence that he was like i actually have tons of evidence that this is true go forward now i'm going to go forward with it anyways and say that the direct that the cia didn't have no comment cia said it was a loss yeah and we have all this proof that

it wasn't. So here's the other thing here, and I can't speak on the specifics of this because I haven't talked to Jack about it or something, but we'll throw this out there. So when I had Joby Warwick on the podcast, who's been the national security reporter at the Washington Post for a long, one of them

for a very long time, great guy, great reporter. He was actually very open about the difficulty of some of these conversations that happen in the back room when it involves foreign policy related stuff and events. And what he said is that almost, I don't want to put words in his mouth, but a significant amount of the time,

you will have the CIA people or sometimes maybe the NSA or something else say on the phone, if you put to every story, almost every story, if you put this out, American lives are going to be at stake and people are going to die. And he said, we don't know shit. We're just reporting what we can find. So we have to go back in the room because it's not like we can quash all of them. Sometimes we got to publish, right?

And we would like to publish all of them if we can get the right burden of proof but we have to have these impossible conversations that don't get any easier over time where we got to say do we believe them or don't we right fuck if i know how i would deal with that conversation that's why you're not the journalist right yeah that's the journalists cross to bear yeah they truly like if you're going to be an investigative journalist and you're not the journalist. Right. Yeah. That's the journalists cross to bear. Yeah. Truly. Like if you're going to be an investigative journalist and you're going to be investigating that topic, it's like the police officers have to investigate domestic homicides or child pornography or anything else.

They put themselves in a position where they have to carry the burden of the evidence that they're dealing with. Right. He could be a journalist for fucking recipe books if he wants to be, but he's choosing that. So he has to deal with that decision. He's the one that has to go to bed at night wondering if it's right or whether it's wrong. It's still not the national security body of the United States controlling the public narrative. Do you think that a lot of the negative narratives about the CIA, I mean, look, there's things that every organization makes huge mistakes. CIA has certainly had theirs over time that are provable, but the overall,

you know, fuck the CIA narratives about everything. And of course about the FBI too, but I'm more focused on the CIA for this question. I'm more focused on the question for this one, for the CIA, because it's a little more international. Do you think a lot of that emanates from manipulation of foreign powers who want to see the cia a lot weaker no no no that the cia's reputation is very well earned but it was very well learned prior to 2003 why do you pick pre-911 CIA was completely different than post-911 CIA. Why do you say 2003? Chaos. Because 2003 was when the-

No. 2003 was when the Senate or when the Congress released the 9-11 investigative- Oh, right. Yeah. Yep. Right? Once that came out and the legislative body of the United States got engaged and they were like, CIA, FBI, you fucked up.

You should be ashamed. Yep. You better get together. Yep. You better fix fix this you need to triple your workforce you need to coordinate we're going to create this position called the dni we're going to get you guys organized intelligence reform get to work that's a completely different agency than it was before that before that it ran on it ran on half as many people who were focused on half as many things with half as much funding so like the the cia the the bay of pigs cia the let's try to ruin you know castro's beard cia the mk ultra cia they earned they earned that right they made all those mistakes all those decisions all those

mistakes if you want to even if you want to take it out of context of time, which I think is always important to remember the context of the time. If you take it out of context and you want to hate on CIA, that's cool. But at least be fucking man enough to accept that the CIA you hated is 50 years old and that you haven't even given the new CIA a chance to prove itself. And the same thing is true with FBI. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, listen, we just talked about it.

You know, who did we have working these important matters? Because they weren't important matters in our minds. I mean, all those stories, you know, the John O'Neill and not cooperating and being the guy he was, I think was over the top on Looming Tower. I mean, I don't think he was that guy. But at the end of the day, yeah, we really just, we were competing. We were competing to get that case done quicker, right? So when we were then told, nope, not going to work this way, it didn't mean people were like, oh, great, how are you?

It still was different. It still was like, fuck you, fuck you, based on who you knew. If you had somebody that you enjoyed working with and trust it yeah inherently then you worked with them yeah you also had a lot of friends across like all the agencies because your previous career before yeah yeah so you had a little bit of a unique situation no i would say but i think it's still about that nurturing of being a which we taught being a giver right not being a taker yep right you know so it's let me let me do always every conversation of mine ends with what can i do for you yep you know you let me do what

i do well yep for you yep and i think that goes that goes a long way not only in our past careers but clearly what's going on in our future you know endeavors business-wise yeah look at you guys you guys have invited us back here together. This is our second time. You've invited both of us back to your podcast multiple times. Why? Because we share. We give.

We try to make you look good. We try to make sure that your questions are answered. We want to pour everything we have into you, into your audience, into your podcast, into your success. We're doing it intentionally. It could be the fucking Jim and Andy show and we sit around talking how awesome we are but we don't instead you're driving the conversation you know your audience you know what you want to talk about you know what would make a difference so let's let us do what we do best and just help you do

what you're trying to achieve also this is it's not how most of government works and it's most certainly not how the government worked before 9-11 when everybody was just trying to protect their small little pot of money their little fiefdom it's it's not that hard to understand when you think of it like a normal person you make a certain amount of money every year you choose how to divvy that money up you choose you know how many time how many hours you have in a day you choose how to divvy that money up. You know how many hours you have in a day. You choose how to spend those hours. Some people spend their hours at the gym.

Some people spend their hours behind a computer. Some people spend their hours watching TV. Some people spend their hours reading. Some people spend their hours with family. You can't criticize other people for how they spend their hours. You can't criticize FBI. You can't criticize CIA

for how they spent their dollars and their hours prior to 9-11 when they were operating on their own now once 9-11 happened unifying act singular enemy guess what we started doing with our dollars and our hours right pulling them up right yeah i mean i think that's that is fantastically well explained before we get up too far i'll talk about going back to the uh the cia control thing and the media thing you tell the story way better than I do because you remember it a lot better. But what was the story with Tom O'Neill

when he was going to meet a reporter? Oh, yeah. Yeah, so Tom O'Neill, who you had on a while back, but he wrote that book back there, Chaos, that I was pointing out to you earlier. Kind of the story of the Manson family. I don't remember what the information was that he had, but in the course of his investigation, he uncovered classified documents that were related to something with the CIA.

I can't remember exactly what it was. But he goes to the Washington Post, and he doesn't tell their chief editor that he has this information, i have the answers to the test right he wants to go see because he was a little bit naive because he had never gone into like a rabbit hole like this type of investigation it wasn't like he had been investigating like cia stuff his whole career or anything so he's feeling it out and so he says to her how much do you trust your chief cia sources and she said, oh, inherently. You know, they can't tell. She was realistic.

Like, they can't tell us everything. And obviously there's some questions that are just no-goes. But when we ask them things like, yeah, I would vouch. I think they're very, very honest with us. And he said, okay, can we go ask them about X, Y, and Z? And X, Y, and Z had to do what was on those papers that he had. And so he goes up to the office. The editor gets her guys on the phone.

They're all talking, chit-chatting, laughing, having a good time. And so she goes, hey, guys, I have Tom O'Neill here with me. He has a question. Can you guys discuss this in more detail or let us know if you did X, Y, or Z? And basically they go oh yeah yeah and they start explaining the whole thing like very nonchalantly oh here's what we did yeah no that wasn't true we didn't do that part but we did this and she hangs up the phone and and he says okay he pulls out the documents and he goes i got news for you those guys lie to you here's the

here's the proof now also to defend the guys on the cia phone there and this is the issue with being a journalist and trying to you know it's like going through a minefield trying to figure out what's true and what's not it's not their job to tell you the truth they have classified shit that could have a whole lot of other stuff behind it sometimes it it might not and they could be assholes for not telling you but i don't know that there There could be like when they say Americans may die. They might be 100% right about that, right? So it's a very difficult thing, but I understand why you're bringing that up, Danny, because it's like, well, if they'd lie that easily and make someone believe that they've been telling them the truth for so long,

what does that say about the rest of the media? Because this is the Washington Post, which is like a preeminent longtime staple of the media in America with a lot of, you know, people working there who took many years to be able to even get that job. The problem here is sourcing. That's what I heard.

Likewise. The problem is sourcing. What makes you think somebody with access to classified information who's voluntarily giving classified information to a newspaper is a

credible source fair question like this is this is the biggest challenge in our in our field of work is is verifying credible sources it's also the biggest challenge in journalistic in the journalistic community you've got to vet your sources and it's very hard to do that because you also can't pay your sources. So it's like, what kind of person is sworn to secrecy, given government secrets, and then voluntarily for free shares those secrets on an anonymous basis only with a major newspaper? Right. Just start thinking about the psychogra- the, the, uh, psychological profile of that person. They don't really want the money, but they do want the attention, but they don't want

their name associated with the attention, and they don't want to appear like they don't know the answer because they want to keep getting the calls back so they can- now you're- that's a built-in fabricator right there. Yep. That's why whenever I see references in media to unnamed CIA sources, unnamed FBI sources, I'm like, you either got somebody who's fabricating because they're a fucking failure at their real job. And that's why they're on here and they're excited because they know, oh, that place

in the Washington Post where it says an honest, that's me. That's me. I'm sticking it to the man. Telling their wife, oh, look at what I do. Yeah, but in Tom O'Neill's case, he had the actual CIA documents. Then it was a game of gotcha with the assets, right? He didn't even need them. Well, no, that's exactly what it was.

He didn't even need them, right? All he did was highlight to the lady. He was trying to point out to the lady, right? Right. He should really check your sources. Exactly right. And as soon as you started saying in the story that she was like, oh, I really feel like I can trust these guys. You know what you will never hear a CIA or FBI officer say is say is i feel yeah i feel like i definitely they're just nice

good no you know you won't yeah you'll feel like we'll be like sometimes they tell the truth other times they lie we've corroborated this we haven't corroborated that 50 of the time we can find a secondary source that's the key man that corroboration and just being able to feel you know for a lot of different reasons but when you know you have somebody that's telling you the truth you know it i would really love to see both of you guys do a deep dive together whether it be on another video or on your channel or something like a deep dive analysis of the twitter files and get your opinion on that i am super interested in that now so you guys have referenced it so many times i kind of look at it i'm like what were these emails going back and forth yeah i didn't think it was that you know i didn't think they were that surprising i don't think it's great at all and i i think it's problematic but i would

you also have to look at context again too guys what were the years what were the years of the twitter files everything leading up to when you took over the company right yeah yeah yeah it went all the way back to back like a decade oh wow give me a year give me a starting year you could probably look at roughly when trump was becoming a like was president right so what else was happening at the same time leading up to the election what else was happening at the same time guys the whole world was afraid of covid 14 we're talking 14-15? No, no, no, no, no, no. This is more, this is when he was, I believe, Stephen, please check it, but like,

I believe it was more like when he was already president. Also, I wouldn't trust Wikipedia to get it right. There may have been stuff that went back, but... Okay, let's read the top part. Let's read the top part. Twitter files are a series of internal Twitter documents that were published 2022 documents include emails slack chats between twitter employees discussing company policy before

the 2020 election okay so gotcha so from 2016 to 2020 you had the whole from 2015 to 2020 you had the whole world waking up to the fact that russia meddled in the elections yes and that russia meddled in the elections using social media yes so the whole world every government agency in the United States was extremely focused on how do we prevent? additional meddling in social media It's it's 9-11 all over again only with a different focus But they're very focused on social media has no regulation has no left and right boundaries has no no law abiding requirement for for authentication and it's an active tool of russian meddling and probably iranian meddling and chinese

everything everyone yeah but we think that now in 2023 we look at that and we're like oh that's obvious and then that is not a real story was not obvious in 2014 it's not obvious in 2015 and then you had idiots from my organization schrock and you know mccabe and all those people that just facilitating that belief facilitating it so that would make texting each other yeah i would feel i would feel better like i don't like having you comment too deeply on stuff that you haven't had a chance to review yet with stuff like that i'd feel better like really talking about it once you've done that and you may have some of the same answers by the way i don't know but i i get what you're saying with with some fears my issue reading through those and again i say for me it wasn't that big a deal because nothing surprised me in there it was it

was all an issue but like to me it was it's's crazy to have confirmation. Yeah, we don't like – we don't even want people talking about these things period regardless of who they are. And that's always a problem because that's where like – that's where a precedent of something that's different like a stellar win could actually get to where it is a problem for people to be able to give their opinion or be like you were talking about earlier you get jailed in thailand if you say something against the royal family this isn't there let's be clear about that but this is that slippery slope that could go there you know when when you when you have the what and in fairness like they caught both white houses doing this they caught trump and biden's white Houses doing this. I don't give a fuck who's in power. When you have a White House, like not even agencies, the White House, elected officials, emailing a social media company saying, what are we doing about person X?

Which is, you know, that's straight out of the recordings you used to listen to. What are we doing about fucking, you know, little Paulie over there? Oh, yeah. You know, he's gone. How'd you like to have that, Jeff? And then you see that it happened and they did do it that's a problem but again yeah i want you to actually look it's not fair to like i would be interested to look into it yeah but like on a similar vein though one thing we haven't talked about today that i want to make sure we get to is the ai stuff because obviously like that's exploded in awareness

popularity this year but it's not new like they've been working on this for years and years and years you were there 27 2007 to 2014 you were fbi all the way up until 2018 so like i don't it's probably some form of a different answer but like is this something you came across in your career or it was discussed and there were potential you know those doors of possibility where you guys assess like confidence levels of how this is going to go like did you have any see-through to that or was that not really a part of anything you did so it's important to understand that ai like you said has been around for a long time it was called machine learning before it was called ai it was called automation before it was called machine learning right intelligent design there's all sorts of things and i've absolutely i was using tools in 2007 that were driven by machine

learning really because machines learn faster than humans yeah and with almost all cutting edge technology the first investor is the US federal government, especially if the technology has any kind of benefit or application to national security. Right. So, I mean, I saw that myself in 2007. Were we estimating the confidence or the likelihood that AI would ever be whatever it's called when it becomes self-aware, right? Were we ever- Sentient.

Yeah. it's called when it becomes self-aware right were we ever sentient yeah were we worried about sentient ai conscious coming over or taking over the taking over civilization nobody put any effort or time into that that does not have rational impact on national security but we were absolutely thinking about how could this kind of tool be used by a foreign adversary to do anything from create false covert influence documentation deep fake videos deep fake audio i mean those conversations have been happening for long long before the capability was clear and present yeah because you've referenced it in passing on previous podcasts about like how ubiquitous some of that stuff has been in your world for a long time

because it's just fascinating that like it seems like now in the public there's an app for everything right or you know a tool online whatever it may be and you know i like stopped looking at it for a couple years because i was i was really reading a lot about it in like 2017 2018 2019 like crazy and i'm like where is it and i'm like oh maybe it's not coming and then boom it comes i'm always like a little fascinated by that because it was it's almost like it's not coming, and then boom, it comes. I'm always a little fascinated by that because it's almost like it's a planned rollout, and I don't think that's a product thing because if they've had it, it had to be a moneymaker for tech companies, so why are they waiting until 2023 to put it out? And the real question is, how much farther along

are they behind the scenes on this stuff? Well, the only experience i had 2013 so um and you know not to not to really talk about it but it clearly it was where it needed to be at that point 10 years ago 10 years ago so i mean it was um it was eye-opening and uh a little scary to be honest you know i mean it's also yeah it's super important man because you're also i don't know what you're mentally referencing as you recall your own experience with this 2019 2018 ai was all the talk of wealthy oil investors in the middle east really that be that was and it may still be their primary investment vehicle to diversify themselves away from natural gas.

Oh, you were over there at that time, right? You were living in the UAE? Exactly. Interesting. So it seems to us that in American news, AI has only been talked about for the last year. Yeah. Back 2018, 2019, 2020, it was all the rage because the sheiks started investing in it because they were trying to diversify their investment portfolios away from oil. Right.

And it's been around for a long time. Government contractors have been using AI to create law enforcement and intelligence tools since 2010. Before that even. Right. 13 was right where it's at. This is another example of what's called the availability heuristic. We recall things and then we give more the availability heuristic we recall things and then we give more value to the things that we recall easier that's actually not cognitively

or rationally a good thing to do it's a shortcut we're like oh yeah i just thought this i heard three stories about this in the last week it must be a problem no it just means you heard you remember three stories about it in the last week. Yeah. And that's why, look, you know, everyone out there listens and makes their own decisions about stuff. But even, even with that, you know, when you're listening to experts talk on things and they're talking on long form too, there's going to be stuff they don't know about that then maybe they're forced to talk about and all that information comes out of what if it is true. I mean, you watched me get caught earlier with the article I wrote on that. you know i'm not an expert to be clear i always said i'm a fucking podcaster but like i'd like to not have a mistake like that right it still happens that's not the

first time that's happened you know and like that's why we have steven here checking it like i love that but you know there's so many people who i'll listen to where i'm like damn they're really saying this with such command of it. How do I even check some of that? Yep. You know, and AI is one of many things. But, you know, the implications of that, like when you start talking about like consciousness or like, God forbid, like sentient, which is like way down there, that's where you start to get to questions you can't even possibly answer.

Like, well, what does that mean for humanity? Do we morph with them you know I don't love thinking about that stuff because that is so many decision tree iterations away from where we are right now it's like I will say that I look forward to AI

I think it brings more net benefit than net danger or net harm and I absolutely think that if we don't do it, our adversaries will. Oh, and they are. They're outpacing already, to be honest. So you can't stick your head in the sand

and be afraid of evolution. It's not something you can do. You got to embrace it, adapt, and roll with it, right? Otherwise, we just become the old guys that don't know how to use a cell phone, right? We can't let that happen. We can't let that happen on a national level for sure are you are you going to be putting on a book at any point like are you working on something are you allowed to talk about that uh i i am so i've

got a book that's in the i've got a manuscript that's actually under review right now with pcrb with the cia's review board and we're aiming for a summer release next year. I'm not going to tell many more details than that because I know the publisher is going to want to do a proper promotion. But yeah. And then shortly on the heels of that, I've got another book coming out one year later, same publisher, second book. Two book deal. Two book deal. And that's autobiographical. One is my personal operational memoir, which is why it's got to go through pcrb got the second is basically the process that i use to bring spy skills into

business and build my business so so once it gets through review some of the content in there that you may be revealing for the first time you'll be able to talk about but right now you still can't talk exactly right okay exactly give them first right a review got it okay so point being there may be some things next year that people learn about your perspective and my operations yeah that's the thing i'm the most i've never been able to talk about my operations yeah right and it's really only been developments in the last three to five years that have made it even close to the place where i'm not laughed off the stage when i write ciam email and say hey i'd kind of like to have my my operational background reviewed for disclosure i need the details andy yeah i want them all we've been we've been debating them for years that's how i started out the last podcast

have you ever killed anybody that was one of the best best best history of podcasts we don't call it murder closed casket versus open casket Andy like points right exactly yes what he said don't call it murder I'm like

wait a minute hold on a second it's like the spider man me when we're all looking around yeah pointing at each other I don't know cut his head down nicely

you got anything else for him wait my book I want to talk about my book i want to talk about my book yeah let's talk about julian julian has ripped my characters that's as far as i got fictional series remember oh what are you doing we're not talking about that yet oh sorry uh my bad i said that out redacted redacted redacted redacted redacted the oreo redacted well boys it's been a fun fucking weekend hanging out with you guys yeah man you're not kidding loved it did we is there anything you guys. Yeah, man. You're not kidding.

Loved it. Thank you. Is there anything you guys wanted to talk about that we didn't? I feel like we covered a lot. We covered a lot, man. Covered a lot. Everyday Spy podcast. Absolutely. The Everyday Spy podcast.

You'll find it on YouTube. You'll find it on all of your favorite podcast channels. And, of course, you can find me at Everyday Spy or at everydayspy.com. And we're going to go record a video for your channel right now. Yep. Oh, wait. Wait. Julian D'Orio podcast. And then Jim. Well, D for your channel right now. Oh, wait, wait. Julian Dory podcast and then Jim.

Well, Diorio right now is in transition, so you'll hear more in the next couple months. Got it. And then your podcast is now the Danny Jones podcast. Oh, yeah, we're on Julian. I forgot we're at part two. Probably now we're on my channel. I don't know how this is going to work yet.

But your podcast is Danny Jones podcast. Yes, Joe's podcast. Part one of this, if that's how we end up doing the order, linked down in the description. So go check that out. Check out his whole library as well. This was the first guy to have Boosted Monitory on. So it was fun, fellas.

Really fun, man. It's going to be awesome coming up with a plan to top this weekend the next time we get to Boken, baby. I think we can do it. Next year in Boken. Boken. Boken. Everybody else, you know what it is.

Give it a thought. Give back to me. Peace. All else, you know what it is. Give it a thought. Get back to me. Peace. All right, guys. That takes us to the end of part two of our two-episode series with Andy and Jim. The first part, if you haven't seen it, was on Danny Jones' podcast. So you can check out that channel and please subscribe to it by hitting the link in the description below. And if you haven't already subscribed to this channel and liked this video, please hit that subscribe button. Please smash that like button and I will

see you guys for the next episode.