Kermode & Mayo’s Take - Ashley Walters & Erin Doherty on Adolescence

Episode Date: March 13, 2025

Vanguardistas have more fun—so if you don’t already subscribe to the podcast, join the Vanguard today via Apple Podcasts or extratakes.com for non-fruit-related devices. In return you’ll get a whole extra Take 2 alongside Take 1 every week, with bonus reviews, more viewing recommendations from the Good Doctors and whole bonus episodes just for you. And if you’re already a Vanguardista, we salute you. Our guests this week are Ashley Walters and Erin Doherty, stars of astonishing new Netflix series ‘Adolescence’. With each episode shot in one take, it follows the story of a family left in shock when their teenage son is arrested for murder. Doherty and Walters respectively play the psychologist and detective involved in the case, alongside Stephen Graham—who plays the boy’s father and co-created the series alongside Jack Thorne. Erin & Ashley chat to Simon about the technical feat of shooting the film, how absolutely terrifying the internet can be, and how terrifyingly good first-time teenage actor Owen Cooper definitely is. Mark reviews the series, plus all these new releases: ‘Black Bag’, Steven Soderbergh’s seductive spy comedy following Cate Blanchett and Michael Fassbender as married spooks trying to trace a leak whilst navigating a relationship that must have secrets; ‘Opus’, a fandom thriller about the long-awaited and frighteningly cultish return of fictional pop icon Moretti (John Malkovich), and Karan Kandhari’s madcap Mumbai-set black comedy about arranged marriage, ‘Sister Midnight’. Top quality correspondence from you as always, including a right telling off for Mark, news from ‘the internet’s stinkiest it girl’, and a hello to a bit more of Jason Isaacs than we bargained for in this week’s episode of White Lotus.... Timecodes (for Vanguardistas listening ad-free): Sister Midnight Review: 08:47 Ashley Walters and Erin Doherty Interview: 25:55 Opus Review: 57:04 Laughter Lift: 50:51 Black Bag Review: 1:05:57 You can contact the show by emailing [e-mail] or you can find us on social media, @KermodeandMayo EXCLUSIVE NordVPN Deal ➼ https://nordvpn.com/take Try it risk-free now with a 30-day money-back guarantee! A Sony Music Entertainment production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts and follow us @sonypodcasts To advertise on this show contact: [e-mail] And to find out more about Sony’s new show Origins with Cush Jumbo, click here Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Well, March is upon us, Mark. What hair-themed movies can you think of? Why? Well, I'm feeding matters of March hair here. Actually, where does that phrase come from? It's a breeding season thing, but beyond the etymology, I'm ready to spring down rabbit holes in the internet. Of course. Well, NordVPN can take you there. You can unlock films and global content with a single click

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30-day money back guarantee. Check the link in the description. Hello, film lovers and moviegoers. This is Simon Mayo. And this is Mark Kermode, bringing you the best podcast for the latest film reviews. On the take this week. You can hear reviews of Opus, Black Bag and Sister Midnight. And our very special guests are Erin Doherty and Ashley Walters talking about Adolescence, a new drama on Netflix. Plus the inevitable conversation about Jason Isaacs and White Lotus.

How low can you go? Very, very, very low. And if you're not following the pod already, what's wrong with you? Please do so wherever you get your podcast. We hope you enjoy the show. Well you're very welcome to another podcast from us. This is a traditional greeting, which we don't normally do, but I can see Mark is in a very colorful t-shirt that looks like an Elvis Costello t-shirt. Yeah, well spotted. Yeah, yeah. From the classic period. I'm a big Costello fan. You're a big

Costello fan, aren't you? You like all this. Yeah. I had a little panic just there because I couldn't find a pen. And I think that we are similar in this. I don't know if anyone has ever done any character analysis about this, but I can't broadcast, of which I consider this broadcasting without holding a pen. But I'm not sure why, because I probably won't be using the pen at all, maybe just a bit. Is it like holding a cigarette? Is it like a support thing, like a security blanket? I mean, I think it is a prop, isn't it?

You're not wearing, you haven't got a pen. You're not holding a pen. No, no, because I've got my laptop in front of me. And as we said, sometimes having the laptop in front of you is partly just because, yes, it is some kind of security blanket. And you saying that about pen and cigarette makes me think of that brilliant line from whichever Skriti Puliti song it is. He held it like a cigarette behind a squaddie's back. He held it so he hid its length and so he hid its lack. They don't write songs like that anymore. No, well, they probably do, but we just miss them. I suspect they're on TikTok. Anyway,

so I have my pen in my hand, so there's no reason not to proceed. Can I begin by saying, I did a show on Monday, it was the 100 MK3D show and Jason Isaacs was there and he sends you all his love. That's a very lovely thing. So hello to Jason. He's doing fantastic. Well, he's, you know, he's like one of the biggest stars in the world now because he's in White Lotus and he literally started, he came on, he said, I don't want to talk about White Lotus. All right, it's on television. Everyone's watching it. Let's talk about you. Okay. Well, we're going to come back to Jason in just a moment. Later on, Mark's going to be reviewing in an entertaining and jazz style these films.

Jazz hand style. Honestly, it's a really interesting week. Sister Midnight, which is, well, I'll describe it in the review because it's hard to describe. Opus, which is a kind of thriller about a pop star. Black Bag, which is the new movie from Steven Soderbergh. You remember he had a new movie out just a few weeks ago. And then Adolescents with our very, very special guests. Who are Erin Doherty and Ashley Walters, who are two of the stars of Adolescents.

Another drama from the pen of Jagthorn. Does Jagthorn write everything? Does he just literally write everything? I think it's sort of like in the law that you should assume that everything is written or co-written by Jack. Anyway, so that's on the way. And in take two, what are you up to? Again, a packed take two, Last Breath, which is a real life drama about being lost underwater,

In the Lost Lands, which is the new film from Paul W.S. Anderson, not to be confused with P.T. Anderson, and The Rule of Jenny Penn, which is a very, very strange psychological chiller. Mr. Anderson. Mr. Anderson. Plus all the other stuff that you know about, which arrives every Thursday, and there's a whole back catalogue of bonus joy and all our awards reaction specials, if indeed you still need to have any of that. Apparently Adrian Brodie's speech is now finished.

Oh, that's, that's a very good thing. Um, now this is a, an uncomfortable email to read from Erica in Cincinnati. Okay. But typical of typical of many, dear dressing and gown, just wondering if either of you said hello to little Jason Isaacs. Now I haven't seen this episode I watched one episode and thought okay fine. I'm behaving badly and there's enough of that that's quite enough of that thank you very much indeed so did this did this come up at all. Thank you very much indeed. So did this come up at all with Big Jason? No, because I wouldn't descend to that level. But look, the thing is, everyone-

Yes, you would. Absolutely. Everyone knows that White Lotus is White Lotus, okay? And there are, in White Lotus, pointed scenes of male nudity. And It just happens that one of them in the new series, in a very darkly comedic moment, involves Jason. No, I didn't take the opportunity to say what was that like. He's done interviews about it. There was an interview in which he said, oh yes, it's all digital. I wasn't even there on set. And then there's another interview in which he said, but I have now demanded that there is one of those scenes in everything I do. Right. Okay.

I mean, just put it this way. Put it this way. You won't be disappointed. There is some online discussion about whether everything is real. We'll talk more about that. I can't believe we're doing this. I can't believe we're doing this. I can't believe we're doing this. No. Anyway, enough Mr. Happy for one moment. An email from Hannah, this is to correspondence at clonomeo.com.

Long time listener, first time emailer. Hello from Sydney, Australia. I wanted to reach out and say how much I love the show, Steve. It's one of the highlights of my week. And I wanted to say thank you after many years of listening. I think I've absorbed a lot from Mark on what makes a film engaging to an audience. I work at the Botanic Gardens in Sydney as a videographer. We recently had a corpse flower, one of the biggest and smelliest flowers in the world. It started to grow after 15 years of waiting. Wow. Affectionately known as Putricia, my team at the gardens had the wonderful job of broadcasting

her growth and eventual bloom to the world. After live streaming her for a week and creating many, many TikToks or what I like to tell myself are mini films, she achieved some cult-like, if not viral status in the lead up to her bloom with many putricians on our live stream forming their own acronyms with their commentary, including my personal favorites WWTF, we watch the flower, WDNRP, we do not rush putricia and BBTB, blessed be the bloom. This is very culty. She even gained attention in the US with Vogue dubbing her the internet's stinkiest it girl. The videos I've created with the much needed help of lots of plant

experts and an incredible media team have now reached millions of views and interactions. I would go so far as to say Mark's musings every week. I like receiving a free world-class tertiary education on film. Not to mention Simon's classy interviews are a true example of how to get the best out of your subjects. You've brought so much to my work and I definitely am in debt to both of you. So I have finally joined the Vanguard. Well, very good. Thank you very much, Dean. Well done. Thank you. Hannah, and I need to chase up this news from the Botanic Gardens in Sydney, but Putricia sounds like a horror movie just waiting to happen, doesn't it?

Putricia sounds like a character from the Addams Family. Sorry, does the flower smell like a rotting body? I don't know, but it certainly is one of the smelliest, it's called the corpse flower, so let's just assume that that's correct. Yeah. It's a dead something. Waiting for 15 years for a stinky flower. I mean, some people have more patience, I suspect, than I do.

Anyway, thank you, Hannah. Oy, oy, oy, oy, oy. Correspondence at Kermit and Mayo.com. So so far in the show, we've done flowers that smell like corpses and Jason's knackers. So classy start. Well it wasn't knackers was it? We didn't get to that. Come on.

We had something else altogether. I can only apologize. We're going to have to put a little not suitable for listening in front of children warning if we carry on. So let's correct things with Sister Midnight. Okay. So this is the new film by British Indian filmmaker, Karen Kandari. And it is an increasingly sort of surreal feminist fable plays out in Mumbai. I knew nothing about it before I saw it. And in a way, partly wants to say to everyone, don't listen to the review, just go see the film. So I'll tell you at the beginning, but I really, really love it. And if you, part of me wants to say to everyone, don't listen to the review, just go see the film. So I'll tell you at the beginning that I really, really love it.

And if you, I'll try not to do spoilers. The trailer is very good actually, because the trailer doesn't spoil the revelation. So suffice to say that it has some of the kind of feral fairy tale quality of Night Bitch. It's got a bit of the political subversiveness of Under the Shadow. There is some of that kind of pointed genre satire of a girl walks home alone at night or perhaps Julie de Cornas' Raw. In as much as in the case of Raw, it looks like a film about cannibalism, but it's actually a film about sisterly rivalry.

The whole thing has got this, and this is really important, this kind of Buster Keaton-like sense of deadpan comedies. Very, very sharp, very funny, very surprising. Radhika Apti is this breakout Indian star. She's done Indian blockbuster movies and is becoming a real global superstar. She plays this fiery spirit Uma who finds herself in an arranged marriage with Gopal played by Ashok Pathak. They live in a one room apartment, literally one room, yet somehow they manage to be worlds apart. There's no intimacy between them, barely any conversation, zero contact. She sort of just ended up here. She doesn't know how to cook. She has no interest in being a wife, despite the advice of her neighbor who says,

look, I'll teach you how to do it. These are things that you have to do. And at one point, she thinks, I can't do this. So she runs away. She gets on a train and goes to the end of the line only to discover that nothing is any better at the end of the line. So she comes back and thinks, okay, I have to start solving my problems back here at home. And then at a wedding, she gets bitten by a bug and she starts to feel ill and becomes pale. Like she's going down with, you know, with some horrible kind of flu. Everyone keeps asking her what has what skin lightening cream she's using. But the point is that her husband, somehow not realizing that,

you know, she needs to be taken care of this particular case invites friends of his to go to the beach with them, which is exactly the place she doesn't want to go. Now we're going to play you a clip and the clip is Hindi obviously. So just so you know, what happens in this clip is they're in their apartment together. There's a knock at the door.

The couple turn up and say, Hey, we're going to the beach and she kind of agrees. But this is just give you a little bit of the flavor of it. Here we go. Time to change. So I'm gonna kill you. What? Okay.

Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay.

Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay.

Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay, so basically there were just a little flavor of it. Anyway, what then happens is that she decides, you know, that she needs to live her life the way that she wants to. Everyone in the neighborhood starts to think that she's terrible and she's not a proper wife and she's a sort of monstrous character. Then the drama takes some very, very strange turns. The weird thing about this is, firstly, I loved it. I think it's really funny.

I think it's really sharp. It's a great story about somebody being trapped in a marriage that they had nothing to do with and yet wanting to be themselves. So it's got that very, very strong feminist side to it. But after I'd seen the film, not knowing anything about it, I read a couple of reviews and a couple of reviews referred to, they said, oh, it's got this kind of Wes Anderson-like sensibility. I thought, no, it hasn't. Anyway, so I was interviewing the director on stage and I said, what's the Wes Anderson thing? He said, I know.

He said, it's like, that's what people say because their memory doesn't go back any further than Wes Anderson. The thing that he was really inspired by, well, he cited Ozu, but the thing he's really inspired by is Buster Keaton. And we then played a clip from the general, the Buster Keaton silent movie,

which I think you and I showed clips from when we were doing the movie doctors tour. And the film has this really smart visual sensibility that is funny and satirical and very, very deadpan, but also really kind of heightened reality. So as the story goes on and it becomes more and more strange and more and more surreal, we start involving stop motion animation. And again, I was asking him about, you know, why stop motion? He said, because it's the way things move in stop motion

is sort of odd. You know, you could put stuff in digitally, but no, he's very much about physical filmmaking. So it's got that physicality that I love. It's got this really, as I said, smart sense of humor. It's got a really vibrant evocation of life at the lower end of the social spectrum. It's intimate and authentic, but also comedic and surreal. It's beautifully production designed. I just watched the whole thing thinking, this is so exciting. This is really and also fantastic music choice and really sort of strange, unexpected music choices, not music choices that you would expect at all. So look, Sister Midnight, go knowing as little as possible. Like I said, congratulations to the people that made the trailer because

the trailer manages not to just give the game away, which so many trailers have done recently. I think it's really exciting and really funny and really sharp. I just enjoyed the heck out of it. I really want people to go and see it because it's such a smart movie. Interesting point about the trailer. I know we've talked about this a lot over the years, but it always brings to mind, I can't remember which Jurassic Park it was, but the one where right at the end of the movie, you see a dinosaur in the sea coming out of the surf, which is like the final shot of the movie. The very last shot.

And that was in the trailer. I don't think I've ever seen, you know, more irresponsible trailer making than that. How can you put the last shot of the film, one of those kind of, oh, wow, and then put it in the trailer? Yeah. You think the director just says the film, one of those kind of, oh wow, and then put it in the trailer? You'd think the director just says, no, you're not doing that. But the director often has no, I mean, I remember talking to Ridley Scott when Prometheus was out and Ridley Scott thought that the poster of Prometheus was a spoiler because it had

that big, you know, stone head reveal, which you go, when it comes to it in the film, you go, yeah, I know, I've seen that. I've seen that. It's on the poster. I mean, I bet Chris Nolan doesn't let that happen. No, I know. I bet he doesn't. There's control and then there's total control. Box office top 10 this week at 15, Twiggy. Which I thought was great. It reminded me just how much Twiggy has done in her extraordinary career. I think it's very well made by Sadie Frost and lovely clips. I mean clips from the boyfriend clips. And the thing that everyone has said, and I know this has been talked about,

Woody Allen comes out of it really badly. There's a scene of a sort of comic interview, Woody Allen interviewing Twiggy, and it really, really makes you think, okay, you do not come out of this world at all, but I really like the dog. Is he kind of patronizing? Yeah, very patronizing. Yeah. He's asking her about her favorite philosophers, the joke being that she's just this working-class schmo who's a model and doesn't know anything, but she sort of turns it around. Just by being

Twiggy she makes him look honestly stupid. Number 10 is Conclave, which I think we've probably discussed in full. I think we've covered it in some detail. Yes. Mufasa, The Lion King, still there. It's seven in the States and nine here. 12th week of release. That's three months. That's a quarter of the year. That film has been in the top 10. That's just astonishing.

Yeah. Is that, is that what's, what's, what's your, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Sorry. By, by Enora, which is number eight here and number eight in the States. Yes. But the thing with Enora is that is I presume that it's, it's going back up as a result of the, uh, up as a result of the Oscar buzz. So I think that's

kind of the post-Oscar reboot stuff, isn't it? That's what's happening there. One of them days is a new entry at number 712 in the US. I really enjoyed this. I mean, I said when I reviewed it, I don't think it'll have the same success here that it did in America. It's been out in America for a little bit longer because it is a very, very sort of American specific comedy. But the chemistry between the two leads is sharp and funny and I laughed five or six times, you know, no worries at all. So it absolutely passed the six laughs test. An email from Nels.

Thanks Nels. Dear Kill Bill and Snooze just came out of my local View Cinema after watching one of them days. It was mid-afternoon showing on a Monday and I was there by myself until I was joined by a couple who missed the first five minutes of the film. But between the three of us, we laughed more than six times at the onscreen shenanigans of the stars. I had no doubt that I was going to be entertained as Kiki Palmer is such a force on screen.

However, I was most impressed with SZA. She had great chemistry with Kiki Palmer and great comedic timing. Not bad for an onscreen debut. I love the cameos of the comedians, Cat Williams, Janelle James and Lil Rel Harry to showcase black American comedy. Really loved it and hope there is a sequel. I am still holding out for a girls trip sequel. Nels, thank you. Yes. The thing that was said when this came out was it was the first R rated black female comedy since Girls Trip, which wasn't something that leapt immediately to mind, but it was announced when it was given an R rating. It's quite full on, but I enjoyed it.

Number six is The Monkey. It's number five in America. I had a conversation with somebody about this and they asked me what I thought. I said, I really liked it and I'm a fan of Osgood Perkins now. They said, yeah, I was disappointed. I said, why? They said, well, I was halfway through it before I realized it was a comedy. And it's like, really? It was, you know, really? You didn't think it was. So it's that thing, isn't it? Comedy is really strange. Horror comedy is so hard to get right. But I- Maybe they had a tenor for comedy. Maybe that problem was- Maybe they had a tin ear for comedy.

But the idea that I would think something was funny, because I'm the person with the tin ear for comedy and this other person went, yeah, no, no, I just, I didn't realize it was meant to be funny. Dog Man is at number five. Which I enjoyed, as we'll say again, was sent to see it by the redactor because, you know, he said, family, very excited about this. And I went to see it and I enjoyed it very much. Captain America, colon, Brave New World at number four.

Insert discussion here about how much anyone wants to go and see a film called Captain America at the moment. I mean, it's quite a part of the film isn't very good and it's just a bit shonky. It's just not the right moment. Is it? Uh, number three, uh, here, nowhere in America, marching powder. Number two, uh, also nowhere in America.

Cause I think you made it very clear well back then it went straight to streaming Bridget Jones, mad about the boy. I wonder if they regretting the fact that it's just gone straight, you know, because it's been such a big hit here. It seems strange that it didn't get any kind of cinematic release in America. Yeah, I think you're imagining, you're imagining something called corporate regret, which I don't think exists. I mean, who knows how it would have done at the American box office. But the fact that it's done so well here, suggest that it would have done at the American Box Office, but the fact that it's done so well here suggests that it would at least have had some theatrical life there.

And I think it is a shame. I've met a lot of people who've been to see it and have basically concurred, yeah, it's all over the place, but I wept like a baby and laughed. So, you know. Corporate regret. When you said that, the only thing that immediately came to mind was, do you remember when Coca-Cola changed their flavour and everyone went, yes, but it's not as good. And they went, oh yeah, yeah, okay,

fine. We'll go back to the original. And then they started marketing the original Coca-Cola, which then I think just went back to being Coca-Cola again, because the new flavor was so, it was horrible, wasn't it? It was really genuinely not right. Yep. Anyway, so that was a bit of corporate regret. Who knows? So, and number one in the US and number one in the UK is Mickey17. A couple of emails here. Jack Ward says, I have mixed feelings about Mickey17. I thought the creeper's creature design was lovely and there were committed performances throughout. The standout for me was Tony Collette's wickedly sinister. Is it Yulpha? Yeah. No, it's Yulpha.

The downside for me was the lack of nuance and subtlety in the message. It all felt a little too obvious, and this made it almost feel safe. Mark Ruffalo's Trump-style leader feels more like a routine and, in fairness, often funny Saturday Night Live parody sketch rather than a thought-provoking and unsettling satire. It didn't quite work for me, even though I admired many aspects of it, and I think it was definitely worth seeing. I felt almost exactly the same way about Snowpiercer, but I do agree with Mark and the rest of the world. Parasite is one of the best films of the century. I mean, yes, but it's not gone with the wind. That's what I think. Adam L says, Dear Mickey 17 and Mickey 18. It may be

because I'm a big Bong Joon-ho fan and because I've recently finished reading Edward Ashton's Mickey Seven. Is that a misprint? Anyway, an anti-matter blues, but I was absolutely on the same wavelength as Mickey 17. I thought it was terrific. Oddball, sci-fi, fused with dark comedy, fantastic performances all around, gorgeous visuals and exploration of pertinent themes.

The last point is particularly important. If you look beyond the quirky narrative, this is clearly a film about ideas and important topics. Leaders who are power hungry, but lack any qualities necessary to lead, including a brain or heart. Rich and powerful people being cannibalistic. Bad policy planning founded on faux religious values. Human flesh being a commodity in the capitalist machine. Worker fatalities being shrugged off by big bosses who benefit from them. All of these topics and more explored through the brilliant mind of Bong Joon-ho. Was it a perfect film? Not at all. Was it everyone's cup of tea? I imagine not.

However, Mickey 17 has inspired some very important conversations, so I'd say it's mission accomplished. Kind regards, Adam Elf. Well, it's number one here and in America, so maybe you're right. Yes. And also, I mean, personally, I agree with all those points that you're making about the subjects that it raises and the way in which it raises them. I said last week, I don't know if it's going to find an audience because I liked it, but I thought, you know, I mean, I like Bong's earlier works. I like, you know, Host and things like that. And I

was not sure that a mainstream audience would take it to their heart. The fact that it has done as well as it has is really, really encouraging, particularly since, you know, I liked it and I reviewed it positively, but it's had some pretty soft reviews. It's had a lot of kind of, you know,

sort of not crazy about it. So hooray. I think that says a lot about Robert Pattinson because obviously he's the star power behind this. But I mean, good for Bong for making a film that's that out there. And I'm just really, I'm really glad it's become a number one. I mean, I don't know whether it'll stay in that slot next week, but I'm really, really glad that it's done it, that it has become a number one hit. Good. Hooray. week, but I'm really, really glad that it's done it, that it has become a number one hit. Good. Hooray.

No, but when Robert Pattinson was on the show a while back now, and really someone else, anyway, someone's analysis of him was that every film choice he's made, you know, since making his Twilight appearances has been designed to make him less famous. And there's still some truth in that, in as much as this is the, you know, he hasn't turned up in Gladiator 2, but he has turned up in Mickey 17. But he's done great work working with interesting directors, you know, Bong Joon-ho, obviously, he worked with David Cronenberg on Cosmopolis. You know, he's, I mean, as indeed, as Christian, both of them, both of the Twilight stars have

gone out of their way to work with interesting, you know, directors who were interested in the cinema of ideas and good for them. I mean, hooray, hats off to them. Was it the lighthouse that you interviewed him for or did you do Willem Dafoe for the lighthouse? Willem Dafoe for that one, yes. Yes. You love that film.

You love that film. I enjoy talking to Willem Dafoe. That's the way to look at it. Okay, so correspondents of KevinOMeo.com, when you've seen these movies, we'd love to know what you think. In a moment, Mark's talking Black Bag, Opus, and then we talk adolescence. Our special guests, Aaron Doherty and Ashley Walters. This episode is brought to you by MUBI,

a curated streaming service dedicated to elevating great cinema. MUBI is the place to discover ambitious films by visionary filmmakers, all carefully handpicked so you can explore the best of cinema streaming anytime, anywhere. Now, Mark, we just had the Oscars or for our Hungarian listeners, films like my Don Tubizocog now streaming on Mubi. Take it away. Around the world, the International Oscar collection,

which is now streaming on Mubi in the UK, brings together some of the amazing films that have either won or been nominated for the Academy's Best International Feature Film Award. You can watch Pan's Labyrinth, this is Guillermo del Toro's masterpiece. Another round, the Thomas Vinterberg film, and also Son of Saul, which is the winner of the Academy of the Best International Feature Film from Hungary. All of those are available. You can try MUBI free for 30 days at MUubi.com slash Kermit and Mayo. That's m-u-b-i dot com slash Kermit and Mayo for a whole month of great cinema for free. that when a vacancy comes up we need to fill it fast. Good thing that there's Indeed Sponsored Jobs then when it comes to hiring. Indeed is all you need.

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with a diverse variety of expertise in mental health. So discover your relationship green flags with BetterHelp. Our listeners get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com slash curmode. That's betterhelp, h-e-l-p dot com slash curmode. So this week's guests, Erin Doherty and Ashley Walters. You'll know Ashley as Duchenne from Top Boy and Erin as Princess Anne in The Crown, amongst many other things. And if you watched A Thousand Blows, you'll have spotted them both there too, alongside our guests from a few weeks back, Malachy Kirby and Stephen Graham. They're back on screen, not together, but they're back on screen in this project with Stephen Graham again in Adolescence, the one-shot Netflix drama series he's co-created alongside the omnipresent and all-seeing Jack

Thorne. You'll hear our conversation about this astonishing series after this clip. What have I done wrong? I haven't done anything! You've got the wrong house, I'm telling you! You're making a big mistake! What's going on? What the fuck? Police! Just like fun! Get your hands in the air! Get your hands in the fucking air! Hey, man!

What are you doing? My name is D.I. Bascom. I have a warrant to search your premises, sir. Where's your son? He's in his bedroom! What are you doing? What are you doing? What are you doing? What are you doing? What are you doing? What are you doing? What are you doing? What are you doing? What are you doing? What are you doing?

What are you doing? What are you doing? What are you doing? What are you doing? What are you doing? What are you doing? What are you doing? What are you doing?

What are you doing? What are you doing? What are you doing? What are you doing? What are you doing? What are you doing? What are you doing? What are you doing? What are me. Erin and Ashley, hello, how are you? Very well, thank you.

Yeah, very good, thanks. I want to say right at the very beginning, just so we have cards on the table, when the awards season comes around again, this show is going to win everything. Absolutely every category. This is a winner. That's the cards on the table moment. What do you have to say to that? Yeah, what can we say? Nothing. That's the cards on the table moment. What do you have to say to that? Yeah, what can we say? Nothing. That's ridiculous. People will have read about this and it's been described incorrectly, it seems to me. So I thought I'd ask you, could you describe what adolescence is? Erin, do you want to go first?

Because sometimes it's described as a crime drama or a police procedural and it's sort of all of those and something else. How would you describe it? I mean, I have the benefit of having just sat down with Jack Thorne, the brilliant writer, and he encapsulated it in the perfect way. He basically said, it's not a who done it, it's a why done it. So it is essentially exploring the psychology

of our younger generation essentially, and just hoping to spark those conversations and really pick at, I suppose really, really at the heart of it is male rage and just trying to understand that on a deeper level. But also it veers off into social media and our understanding of that. And I don't actually think this show poses any answers and I don't think it's supposed to. It's just asking all those questions of how we can connect.

Actually, how would you describe it? Or has Erym just said everything? I think she said it perfectly. And obviously, Jack Thorne has said that, so it must be that. But yeah, no, definitely a why and definitely a show that is going to create conversation. I think that's all you can ask for. As a man, as a father of like four boys, conversation is really important.

Conversation with your boys and kind of men talking to each other about feelings, how they feel is really important. And sometimes can be the way that you avoid situations like this, you know? And what I love about the show as well is that it's not about where you come from, you know, how much money you've got or anything like that.

It's about, you know, anyone can slip into this position. Any young boy can slip into this position if they're not having, I guess, the contact and the talks that they need to be having with their parents about their lives and how they feel inside. So, I don't think that Jack and Stephen went out to make it to be like a public service announcement or anything. It's actually like, you know, it's a really gripping show and it's meant to entertain you. But one that I think is going to raise so many topics of conversation that we need

to be talking about in this country, especially right now. The Stephen that you mentioned, Stephen Graham, I want to get to him in just a moment, but actually just still with you because the story starts with you. It starts with you and a police raid on a house. Can you just explain the setup and what happens there right at the very beginning? Because you are D.I. Luke Baskin. Yeah, so it sets up where we're just about to raid this house to kind of arrest the accused,

Jamie Miller. So, you know, it's a pretty intense start because I mean, initially at the beginning, I'm on the phone talking to my son, who's kind of trying to skip school. You know, so it's about him dealing with his own son and actually his son goes to the same school as the accused, right? So yeah, I mean, straight away we're bashing down a door, we're going into someone's house and ripping their life apart and pulling this young kid out who I very clearly realize is just a young kid.

On seeing him, it's like you go in the place to arrest this person that's meant to have done this heinous sort of crime, and you realize he's just a child, you know? I mean, there's even a moment where he's wet himself and I ask him if he wants to change his pants and stuff. And it's really gripping. It's really like, you know, this is what life is at the moment, you know, for a lot of people. So I think for parents, it's like,

it's going to be pretty eye-opening. But from the get-go, we're smashing through doors and the train has bolted and it's hard to stop it. Aaron, you play Bryony Ariston, who's a clinical psychologist, and we just see you in episode three. Can you introduce us to that episode? It is, people will talk about this entire show, but they'll talk about episode three for a long time. Can you just set it up for us? Yeah, so it's essentially, it's the last meeting that Bryony will have with Jamie. And she goes into it knowing that,

and the information that she gathers and has been gathering from these meetings will essentially go to the court system and it will alter his life forever. And I don't think she takes that lightly. I made the decision really early on to really push against the 2D nature of playing a psychologist because I think it's very easy to just be one note. So I kind of made the decision to have hope and to be battling with that throughout,

just willing this kid to give her a glimpse of something that she could go back to the court system with to make this whole thing go away for him. Toby And the kid that we're talking about, Jamie, is played by Owen Cooper, who I think this is his first ever performance. Genuinely astonishing. We say this quite a lot when we talk about kids who are given these key roles, but this is the most intense scene that he is expected to do with you, Erin. And I want to talk about the single-shoot nature of everything, but you are in this room with this boy who has never performed before,

for a very, very long time. The emotional intensity in that room is quite extraordinary. What was it like from your point of view, being an experienced theatrical and television and cinematic actor working with a boy who'd never done this before? I think I have a younger brother and so it really wasn't hard for me to just hone in on the human level of what was happening in that room at that time. I think I personally the performances that I'm most drawn to are the ones that are organic and raw and actually Owen had all the ingredients to make that fantastic performance. All we had to do was give him the space and safety to let that out of him. So the most important thing for me was just connecting with him as a human being and allowing him to make mistakes and not feel judged and try

things and just go there. But I can't take full credit for that. It literally was all the creatives that were a part of this, particularly Phil, the fantastic director. He was with him every step of the way. Like this was the first episode that we shot of the whole thing. So it was literally day one. Ashley, from your point of view, you already said you're a dad. And what Owen Cooper manages to do as Jamie is, one minute he's a raging adult, the next minute he's a six-year-old boy,

and he manages to get that absolutely pitch perfect. I wonder if he gives this performance because it's his first performance, because he hasn't been to drama school. I wonder if drama school would have taken him in a different direction. I don't know, what did you make of his performance and working with him?

I think he was just amazing. I mean, there was a lot of times during rehearsal where I was slightly unprofessional, to be honest, because I was just watching him. I was like, how is he doing this? This is like magic. And he's just so consistent and every time. And literally, I mean, he was doing these scenes

where he'd be breaking down, you know, in the interview scene. And like two minutes later, he's playing paddle ball or, you know, I mean, just playing with his friends and stuff like that, like flipping in between, which is amazing for for anyone to do in this game. But I'd say don't label it, you know, for all of us, every part of our life, ups and downs, everything that we've been through kind of shape who we are in the moment we're in. Right. So obviously, he was he was born to do this, you know, he's just one of those things and I just think we should just let him grow within it, you know, and he deserves everything that happens for him after this point. So people have read that each episode is a single shot, which is technically extraordinary. It's technically audacious. In your experience with this particular story, did it aid the intensity? Could it have worked differently?

I mean, I suppose it could have worked differently, you know, in the conventional way that we shoot TV. But I love this way, because it just means that you're like, you know, it's like being on stage, and you just got to ride it. And that's one of the greatest things you can kind of experiences you can have as an actor, just being free. And you're actually the character, you know, you're experiencing everything in real time. And yeah, I just don't think there's a better way. I mean, I wish I could film everything like this.

To be honest, but you can't, obviously, if you're like they can't jump on a plane with you to fly to Africa and then come back and stuff like that. But you know, it's such a great experience. I would, I would push everyone who gets a chance to film in this way, to film this way. I agree. Erin, I would have thought the intensity at the moment though, you know, maybe you're 40 minutes in, you don't want to be the one that trips or the one who fluffs the line. And do you actually, would you then actually have to go back to the very beginning and reset? Yeah, we had, I think we had one full start.

Like, I can't remember what it was. Like, it was minor, but for whatever reason, we had one where we were like, oh, okay, we're going to stop and we're going to go again. But other than that, like Ashley said, you just have to let it be and trust the moment and let that be another ingredient. And actually that might be a gift. The one that they chose, the take that they chose from our episode, Owen had a cough and he was fighting it the whole time.

And the minute that we finished, he was like, oh, I've ruined that one. I had a cough the whole time. And Phil came out and he was like, that cough, what that was amazing. Why how did where did that come from? And I was literally like I just had a cough like so that's why I'm like you never know and and it is such an important lesson in Just trusting the truth of a moment when Jamie started coughing in that in that scene No one coughs in a drama without it meaning something. I thought, oh no, something terrible is going to happen. But actually, no, it was just,

that's just what happened. It was very intense and he needed a glass of water. From an acting point of view to both of you, to Erin and Ashley, I would imagine it must give a completely different vibe to a show, the kind of sense of togetherness when you work with this level intensity when you're going from the start of the show to the end of the show, there must be a camaraderie on set which you would not get in any other style of shooting. Yeah, 100%. I mean, we always talk about people you work with,

being your family for that period of time because you're working together so intensely. But this was like, you know, double that or triple that for me. And I think for everyone else, because like literally after every take, you know, you're drained, you're exhausted, you're emotional we'd all come into the the foyer of the the set build for the police station and cry hug you know what I mean it was like it was so intense like you really

kind of fall in with each other yeah I mean it was it was really intense it was really intense and beautiful to to see and feel. I have two have two questions. The first question is kind of a category, which is, what is it about Stephen Graham? So he's been on the show very recently, as I mentioned, with Malachi Kirby talking about Thousand Blows, in which you are extraordinary, Aaron, as the queen of the 40 elephants. And there just seems to be something about Stephen at the moment. He's like the most energizing actor in the country and no one has a bad word to say about him. He's a fantastic actor,

clearly a great script writer and a great bloke. So as two people who've worked with him on a thousand blows and on this show, what is it about Stephen Graham? What has he got? For me, it's kindness. Like he is just the most generous, or one of him and Hannah, his wonderful wife

and production partner, like they are matriarch. But with Stephen, it's a kindness. He wants the best environment for everyone. He knows that only good work comes from that and he invests his time in creating that soil, if you will, and he's benefiting from it himself. But also it's about community, it's about uplifting others, it's about climbing the ladder and looking down

and sticking your hand out for other people. It's everything. And I just genuinely believe that only good things come from that. It's everything. And I just genuinely believe that only good things come from that. It's like a beautiful karmic cycle and he is just at the center of this thing. But the point is kindness. That's all I can kind of put it down to. Agreed, agreed. He gives. He just gives, you know, and I think, you know, you said with the karmic cycle, it's like, it all comes back to him. I mean, look, we have to be honest.

In this industry, there aren't that many clean hearts, you know, and his is pure. He's such a good friend before anything else and such a wonder to work with. And, you know, he just keeps on giving. So he deserves everything he gets. And there's never a bad word said about him because there's no bad words to say

It's just as simple as that really great guy and also he's phenomenal at what he does So that helps as well like so when you're in front of him, you're just like trying to soak it all up anyway But yeah, he's just I think parents will find adolescents terrifyingly brilliant, but they will be asking themselves questions I wondered if you both asked yourself how you would have coped with social media when you were a teenager. Tough one. I mean, I'm so glad I had like a long period of time without it, to be honest. So I can understand what life was like before. But I do wonder, you know, and sometimes feel sorry for kids that have grown up with it. It's become like an extra arm for a lot of kids.

I mean, some of my kids, my young daughter, I kind of held back for years getting a phone because she's been asking for a phone since she was seven. She's 10 now, just about to go into secondary school. So I thought, all right, this is the right time to do it. And already it's become an extension of her life. And that's scary, it's scary to see, but it part of life you know and like I was alluding to before I just think dialogue is important you know I'm always talking to her about who she's talking to and you know the

sort of stuff that she's looking at and monitoring that. How would you have coped? I was honestly I have no idea um I feel so grateful like I literally kind of just missed it. Like our thing was MSN, like coming home and like talking to people. But even then, like it was for a little amount of time and then you'd be present in your home. Like I think what this show is so brilliant at highlighting is actually that you can go up to your room and there's a whole world in there like via this thing. It's quite a daunting prospect for our younger generation. It is and this show underlines that and it's an unmissable program. It's going

to be on Netflix. It's called Adolescence four-part drama. Erin Doherty and Ashley Walters, thank you so much for your time. It was good to speak to you both. Thank you. Good to see you. I want to say it is going to be on Netflix. It is already on Netflix because if you're listening to this on the day that the podcast drops on Thursday, it has just arrived. So when it is there. And I hope that wasn't too gushing. When you see excellence, you just need to say it and there isn't a tough performance in it. in it. And I think the thing about this show, I mean, I had the huge, I don't think we gave too much away. No. Because the best thing about this show is to ideally is to see it not knowing very much about it. And I think it always surprises it never does quite what you're expecting it to do next. What did you think Mark? Well, I watched it knowing nothing at all about it other than the title. And I watched all four episodes in one viewing.

I hadn't planned to do so, but that's just, I just went from one to the next. I thought it was, I mean, I think it's quite brilliant. I think you're absolutely right. I think it was quite right to say at the beginning, you know, it deserves every award going. Firstly, it's important to say credit to Stephen Graham, who is the kind of, you know, he's not just in it, but he's the co-creator of it. And he continues to do astonishing work. And I think he's a real force for good in the industry. And of course, he's working with Philip Barentini, who he's worked with before, memorably boiling point in which we saw that

the one shot thing can be more than just a gimmick. What's really extraordinary about this, the very first episode, which is the episode which we heard there in which the police turn up and do the arrest, the one shot thing really is, I mean, I found it almost like having a panic attack being in the house as all this stuff was going on. But the thing that's really smart about the series is that you, as I think you did with Boiling Point, you start not thinking about that format at all. In fact, I was watching it for quite a while before I realized that that's what it was

doing. I hadn't gone into it thinking, oh, it's a one-shot drama because I said I knew nothing about it was doing. I hadn't gone into it thinking, oh, it's a one-shot drama because I said I knew nothing about it at all. I think that it talks about a really complex issue in a way that is never patronizing, never trying to simplify something which is really complicated. I mean, I think you did a very good job of saying to the two interviewees, you tell us what it's about. And the subject which comes up is, you know, it's about, at least on one level, it's about male rage. And it's important that, for example,

the name Andrew Tate appears only fleetingly and never by the central character, because it's talking about a much wider thing than that. It is talking about a kind of culture in which it is possible for somebody who's, you know, his home, his, no one is more astonished than his parents at what is happening. But during the course of it, you start to realise that all these things have influenced him and been influences on him. And he has sort of been marinated in this stuff that they just didn't or don't know about. I found it devastating, honestly. I was completely gripped by it. I thought it was really intelligent and really,

as you said yourself, it's the beginning of a conversation. It's not the end of a conversation. I mean, you know, God bless Jack Thorne. He's a great writer and he does know when not to fill stuff in. He does know when to present stuff. And then, as far as the performances are concerned, I mean, like you say, not a single duff performance from seasoned professionals to somebody who is on camera for the first time in this incredibly challenging role. And I think the most important thing is that it doesn't go for easy answers. In fact, it doesn't go for answers as such. What it goes for is inquiry. And I watched it a few days ago, no, almost seven days ago.

And I don't think there's been a day since I saw it that I haven't thought about it. I, yeah, I thought it was just, I thought it was every bit as good as you said it was in the beginning of that interview. I think, and the episode three, which is where Aaron Doherty's character is with Jamie, played by Owen Cooper, because it's the one take thing.

It's easy for people, and I've read some people say it's a gimmick, you know, and it's showboating and that kind of thing, but the effect in that room where the clinical psychologist is talking to this child is that it makes it even more intense. There are no cutaways, there are no establishing shots, you don't come out of the room and then go back in again. It just ramps up what is an extraordinary conversation. I found it very interesting when Erin was talking about he coughs and so he has a glass of water and all that. That's all, that's all part of that experience. And it makes the kind of explosive nature of that conversation

even more, even more powerful. I messaged, I emailed Jack and just said how much I'd enjoyed. And he said that kid, he said, took on the whole show and won. Episode three was the first one that they filmed. And he said, rehearsals were a magic show. You can imagine if you've dreamt this up and you're watching this stuff appear on the screen, I just think it's an unmissable experience. And it will be terrifying for some parents, but not because it's gruesome, not because it's gory, not because it's explicit or anything. It's just not knowing what goes on behind the door when your kids shut the door and go online. Not because it's, because what it doesn't do is it doesn't do one of those things, oh

yeah, you know, violent dad or something like that. It doesn't do any of that at all. There's an episode in which Stephen Graham is sort of dealing with the fallout of this. And yes, he has anger, but there's never any sense of his character being reduced to just, oh, that's what he was, he was in anger. The thing about, well, once was your dad, but once he tore down a shed, yeah, that's the level of it. But I think it's, I mean, it's so well balanced. It's so thoughtful and yes, horrifying because it needs to be, but also completely empathetic, whether it's empathetic or empathetic, I'm sorry, my English is not very good. Empathetic, I think is empathetic. There are moments when you sort of recoil from

it because you can't get your head around it. And then there are other moments when you're just, you are literally in the room with them. And yeah, it is, as you said, it deserves every award going if there's any justice in awards. And this is a very minor point which they got right. But, and this may well be a budget thing, but if all dramas could follow adolescence in how you shoot a driving sequence, where time and time again, I annoy everyone who I'm watching with by saying,

no driver looks away from the road as often as the stop doing that. There's a scene in episode four where Stephen Graham and family are driving in a truck. I'm quite intrigued as to how they did it going there and they do it differently coming back. But at all times you are with them and okay, this is the real thing. And okay, this is the real thing. It's not, you know, this guy is concentrating on what he's doing. Anyway, so congratulations to everyone involved, to Stephen Graham, Aaron Doherty, Ashley Walters, Jack Thorne, everyone involved in adolescence.

Once you've seen it, we'd like to know what you think. Of course, correspondents at Cabin America. Can we just say one other thing? Yeah. Jack Thorne, can you just stop? You're making the rest of us look bad. All right? Just take a year off for tax purposes or something. There was many, many years ago, some television awards, there was an award for independent

TV producer of the year and Hattrick won it year after year. So in the end, they'd made it the Hattrick Award for independence. so just to give someone else a chance. So there should be the Jack Thorne Writers Award so that other people can have a chance. And since you, since you know him, is he nice? Oh yeah. Oh, for heaven's sake. I know some, some, no, he absolutely is. Okay.

We should get him on the show sometime. You should get him on the show. Yeah. Okay. We should get him on the show sometime. We should get him on the show, yeah. Okay. All right. That's Adolescents and it's on Netflix. Anyway, do you know what we need, Mark? We need a little kind of a skip, a merry skip into the laughter lip. Excellent. Here we go. Well, hey Mark, I went for a prostate test this week. No, is that where we've gone to?

Yeah, yep. I mean, any man over 15 should do. The doctor said, good news, you have a terrific prostate, Mr Mayo. I was deeply touched. Mark, a little bit of pop trivia for you did you know that William Shatner once Yes, but did you know that William Shatner once asked Stevie Nicks to marry him she said no, of course didn't want to hyphenate their Stevie Nicks to marry him. She said no, of course, didn't want to hyphenate their surname. Took me a while.

I'm looking at buying a new car, Mark. I went into the dealership this week and asked about cargo space. The salesman looked at me for a few seconds and then said very slowly, car no do that, car drive on road, can someone come and get you? Yeah, this is where we would traditionally finish the laughter lift, but I thought I'd add to it my favorite joke of the week, which I saw on blue sky from Nigel Tassel, who's a top writer. Top writer, yes, yeah top writer, very good book about dexies. Anyway, he also does some copy editing. So this is quite a

nice joke. Okay, how many how many copy editors does it take to change a light bulb? The answer is that's the first time you mentioned light bulb. No, well, do it again. How many copy editors does it take to change a light bulb? That's the first time you mentioned a light bulb. No, okay. I'm not getting it. I'm very kidding.

We'll be back shortly. Mark will be talking about Opus and Black Bag after this. What's up, Mark? All's well. How about you? Well, I've been thinking about that cushion that we gave away at our live show. Yeah. That and the pencil case. Imagine if we had a load more that we needed to shift. Imagine the riches.

Every bottom or pencil case in the country would be graced in some way by our presence. Well, when you put it like that, we should have used Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform revolutionizing millions of businesses worldwide from people selling compasses to comfy cushions. And it covers all your sales channels, from a shop front ready POS system to its all-in-one e-commerce platform. It gets you selling across social media marketplaces. Oh, and it's full of the industry-leading tools ready to ignite your growth. Shopify gives you complete control over your business and your brand without learning new skills in design or coding. And thanks to award-winning help, Shopify is ready to support your success every step of the way. Sign up for a £1 per month trial period at shopify.co.uk

And we're back. And while we've been away, Mark, I had to explain the copy editor joke. Yeah. And I did finally get it, but it was like, I'd be interested to know if people walking the dog or driving a car or doing anything, listening to this show, whether the whole of the country was shouting at their speaker or their device saying, this is why it's funny, or whether the whole of the country was doing what I was doing, going, no, no, I'm not getting it. I'm not getting it. They were still appreciating the William Shatner Stevie Nicks joke. That's what they were doing. So it doesn't really matter. So it was just a bit. So the job of a copy editor is to fastidiously go through and be as pernickety as possible.

And if there is any kind of, if you're the logic in your story doesn't hold up, then it's the copy editor's job to correct. To point out. Yeah. Yeah. So there we go. So that is why the light bulb thing is here. That is the very, very definition of a niche joke, Simon Mayo.

From copy editors corner, they were in convulsions. They were having a great time there, if copy editors indeed ever have convulsions of hilarity. Now, Mark, I have some very, very good news, some exciting news, some thrilling news from Shane O'Sullivan in Dublin. Dear Bigfella and Longfella, I've been a regular listener since the before times

and always enjoyed not only your Witterings, but the sense of community from your interactions with your faithful congregation. The iWitter app was a lovely extension of the community where our fellow believers called home. Sadly, it disappeared a while ago and this week I decided to brush the cobwebs off my keyboard and build a replacement. So enter iWitter.com. So it's not on the app

store, but if you Google or search engine iwitter.com, this is what Shane has done. I started off, he says, building the check-in flow so that we could see everyone around the world, then got a bit carried away and added more features like a weekly vote on the Watchlist Not List, a community provided list of interesting films and festivals around the world, a list of your latest YouTube videos, and of course, a daily dose of the wisdom of Jason Isaacs. You can use iWitter in your browser and also install it as an app right from the webpage. It's free and always will be.

I hope you two entertaining curmudgeons keep withering for many years to come. And that my little app helps bring us all a little closer together. So I now have it, um, on my, uh, on my phone and I've got the map here, which I'm holding up to you. So it's early days, obviously, but we have listeners, uh, in Africa. We've got Spain, we've got France, Iceland, America. You know, it looks amazing. So obviously it's going to take a while to get back up to where the iWitter app was,

but I would encourage everybody to follow what Shane has done. If you look up iWitter.com, you can download everything very straightforwardly. And we'll take it from there. And just to be clear, all profits go directly into our pockets. Is that correct? Already have. Already have. Yes. I'm planning to buy one of those swastikas with all the proceeds that are coming my way. And then when I have one, I'm going to deliberately, what should I do?

What's the best thing to do with it? Give it away? Turn it into a shelter? Yes. What's the best thing to do with it? Give it away, turn it into a shelter. I know I'll put it in the, at the end of the garden and use it as a shed. Haven't Tesla stocks dropped by like 50% because everyone hates Elmo so much. Isn't that, isn't that a terrible thing? Yeah. Anyway, Shane O'Sullivan, you're a good man. Thank you very much indeed. Correspondence at codeinvader.com. Join the community and iwitter.com. That's where you go to get all your business.

I'm on there. You're going to be on there, Mark? We need to- Yes, absolutely. I'll get on as soon as I turn my phone back on after recording. Very good. So let's go see some interesting movies.

Opus, which is the feature debut from Mark Antony Green. It's a psychological chiller with echoes of the menu and more recently, Blink Twice. So, Ayo Odebeiri, who is so brilliant in The Bear, is aerial. She's a wannabe writer in a hit publication. She wants to write something important, but her best friend tells her, well, the problem is you've got no life experience. You had a perfectly fine childhood.

You're from sort of middle of the road, everything. Your writing is middling. And then her editor, Stan, sees her basically as an assistant until she is one of a select group of journos, along with her editor, who is invited to hear the new album by Alfred Moretti, who is a pop star who has been silent for decades and has now come out of that self-imposed silence. Here's a clip. There's a rumor flying around that Moretti's back. Like, Loretta Moretti? After 30 years outside the public eye, pop icon Moretti returns for an exclusive listening experience. He's bringing you a gift.

This is for Ariel Ektun. Everybody meet Ariel, some young blood from the magazine. This is Clara, the most hated sex symbol on TV. Thank you. How's print media treating you? Congratulations. Welcome to this once in a lifetime gathering. Moretti requires that everyone be shaven.

So how's the Lady Garden? So, a hint of the tone. Anyway, so they all basically get flown and then bust off to this really remote compound to meet Moretti played by, of course, John Malkovich. Because if you were going to cast, you know, this incredibly famous pop star, John Malkovich, and you think, okay, well, that's preposterous, but, you know, Ralph Fiennes was doing the chef in the menu, so John Malkovich is the pop star. So they're flown there, and Juliette Lewis, you heard in that clip, is the most hated

sex symbol on TV. And then there's another guy who apparently had some beef with Maretti, and then there's a paparazzi there. And anyway, the compound is basically a cult. It's got these disciples and they're all into this leveling religion, this weird religion, the only ritual of which appears to be in which they have to sit in a hut and shuck oysters, you know, shuck, yeah, oysters, clams, you know, clams, looking for pearls. And this apparently is a thing that teaches them all that everything

is on the level, you know, that the moments of success are, you know, the same as the hours of failure, something like that. But the whole thing is a bit weird. There are kids there and they do happy, smiley art classes. It's a bit like the Stepford Wives version of The Manson Family. And then they get to hear the new album, which he premieres in much the same way that Ray Fiennes, his character, premieres his dishes in the menu. And then things start to turn nasty. Now, before the film started, there's a colleague of mine and I said, oh, I'm looking forward to this. And she said, oh, really? Have you seen the reviews? And I said, well, no, I haven't.

She said, oh, the reviews are not good. And which I didn't know because I hadn't read any reviews. And then I sat there and watched the film having partly been warned, okay, this is, it's not very good. And actually I kind of enjoyed it. Now it is possible that I enjoyed it more because I had been told just before,

oh, the response is that it's not very good. The central question is whether or not you can buy the idea of John Malkovich as the biggest pop star on the planet. And I mean, it's helped by the fact that Nile Rodgers and the Dream are doing the music. So okay, so when they're doing these kind of supposed dance bangers, they actually have got some proper pedigree behind them. This is one scene in which he's playing the album and he's sort of dancing and prancing around the journalists in this manner that is

utterly preposterous. But kind of maybe that's the point because the thing is, you know, Malkovich is utterly preposterous as he himself demonstrated he understood in being John Malkovich in which he sort of, you know, laughs at the idea of Malkovich. I once went to see John Malkovich, in which he sort of laughs at the idea of Malkovich. I once went to see John Malkovich on stage in a production in the West End, I think, was it Burn This? And I walked out because I couldn't hear a word he was saying. I was up in one of the balconies

and he was just looking at the floor and mumbling, and I could just see the top of his head. And it was like, this is ridiculous. So I left. But he is ludicrous and ridiculous and also very, very talented. But in a way, the kind of thing is you either buy this idea or you just think this is the most preposterously stupid thing he's ever done. I bought it. I think the reason it works, however, is that Ayoad Biri is so completely believable as this wannabe

rock writer who just suddenly finds herself in this absolutely bonkers situation. It's got a nice thing in the tail in the terms of the way it does the, you know, it's really what it's about is there's no such thing as bad publicity and, you know, manipulation happens in a lot of different ways. Look, it's not for everyone. And clearly some people have just looked at it and gone, okay, this is just silly. And, you know, it's not the menu and it's not blink twice. But I confess that I enjoyed it, as I said, perhaps influenced by the fact that I was told just before it started that it wasn't any good. So, it kind of immediately started

outstripping my expectations. And I think the Malkovich thing is it is utterly, utterly, utterly preposterous. But maybe that's the point. Correspondence at kerbidenmaier.com, Alison Smith in Liverpool. Dear Simon and Mark, I hope this email finds you well. I'm a heritage listener, occasional email and a dedicated member of the church. Truly, I love this podcast. It informs old and new, and I take no pleasure writing in with a complaint. But it's been bothering me for quite some time and I really need to get it off my chest. Mark, you spent so much of your time championing foreign films on the podcast and in your written criticism. I love how you now play clips in

the original language, allowing listeners to get a sense of the tone of a film, even if we don't understand the language. And you always make an effort to pronounce the names of foreign actors and directors correctly. So what's the problem with Timothee Chalamet? Every time you say his name, you do it in a mocking sing song fashion. I get that when he first broke through, no one knew how to pronounce it. He spent the entire press tour for Call Me By Your Name answering the question, how do you pronounce your name? And each time he answered with grace, patience and good humor.

It's been close to a decade since that press tour. And in that time he's been nominated for two Academy Awards, led a major franchise in June, and tried his hand at a musical with Wonka. Between projects, he doesn't seem interested in being a celebrity, he avoids the limelight and appears to keep his head down and take his craft seriously. You might not like all his performances, I'll be honest, I struggle to understand what the Birdsong is going on in Dune, but I think he's done enough to earn your respect. His name is not a showbiz affectation, it's his real name being the son of a Frenchman. It's probable that early on in his career, an agent asked him to

anglicise it or change it to make it easier to sell, but chose to stick with it. That should be applauded and not mocked. Thank you for reading this. I hope you took it in the spirit in which it was intended. Yours respectfully, Alison Smith. Okay. All right. I'll stop doing it. Alison Smith. Okay. All right. I'll stop doing it. There you go. Point taken.

You know, I sometimes when someone points something at you go, yeah, okay. Fair enough. Many, many years ago, Jasper Carrot was taken, he did a whole routine about, they were like Irish jokes. And someone came to his show and then after he said, I really like your show, but I'm Irish and I don't like it. And he said, okay, fair enough. I'll stop doing it. So he started doing exactly the same jokes, but had sun readers as the butt reader. And I got an email from a listener to Greatest Hits who just would say, actually was on social media, would say,

Simon, it's been six weeks since you played a female artist as a Big 45. Or sometimes it'll be two months or sometimes it'll be three weeks or something. And I thought, oh, yes, you've got a point. I need to do better. Well, just in general, I mean, it's like you. Yes, thank you. I think it's, yeah, I think it's good point. Good point, well made.

Yeah, and you didn't need a punch from Benedict Cumberbatch to make it. Although I'm always up for a punch from Benedict Cumberbatch. Yes, Benedict, anytime you fancy coming on. Yeah, you, me, outside, bike sheds now. Correspondence at KevinOBain.com, what else do we want to mention in this year's Take One? Well, just a very few weeks ago, we reviewed Presence, right, which was this supernatural

horror thriller from Steven Soderbergh, who's the guy behind Sex, Lies and Videotape and the Oceans remake series, and Aaron Brockovich, which we were talking about just recently, and Traffic and Contagion, Magic Mike were talking about just recently, and traffic and contagion, magic, all those sort of things. And he officially stopped making films in 2016, but then he clearly didn't stop. So he is just back on maximum productivity. So now we have Black Bag, which is, I mean, Presence has literally only just came and went to now Black Bag, once again written by David. I think it's pronounced Kep, the K-O-E-P-P, I think it's Kep, I think that's right. Um, who was, as I said before,

the ninth most successful screenwriter of all time, although watch out, Jack Thorne is going to be snapping at your heels, mate. Um, in terms of box office and you know, he's written, it's just a huge amount of stuff. So Black Bag is a stripped down espionage thriller. It's like a twisty cat and mouse tale that starts pretty much with a dinner party. So Michael Fassbender, you remember Michael Fassbender was in the, that film, The Killer in which he was like this meticulous hit man, but then things went wrong. Well, once again, Michael Fassbender cast as somebody who is very, very

meticulous, like super meticulous about everything. He and Cate Blanchett are George and Catherine, married couple. They are both, is the word spooks? Do people still use that for, you know, for- I think everyone, yeah, I think everyone knows what you mean. So they're both in the espionage industry. They apparently have a successful marriage, although they both have their black bag areas. Black bag area means if somebody asks you about something, you say, black bag, can't talk about that. So where are you on Thursday? Black bag, can't talk about that. They have invited around to their house a group of people who are also all in espionage. Tom Burke's Freddie, who is this kind of, he's a bit of a bad

boy and he's been passed over from motion. Marisa Rubella is Clarissa, who is a surveillance expert who is with Freddy. Naomi Harris is Dr. Zoe Vaughan, who is the professional psychiatrist who has to tend to all their needs to make sure they're fit for work. And Reggie Jean-Page, who is having a relationship with the therapist. So they're all sort of involved with each other. George has been given one week to find a leak and he's been told there are five people who are potential suspects and it's those four and his wife. So his wife is one of the suspects because these are the people that would have had access to be the thing of the leak. So he's made

this meal because he's a great cook, but he spiked the doll so that everyone gets a little bit, you know, loose lipped. And what happens is they then have the dinner, sort of fights break out between people because they're all having these weird interpersonal relationships. And what happens over the course of the next, it's stripped down, it's like a 94 minute film, is he says, the dinner was the rock, now what I have to do is to watch the ripples. I have to watch the ripples to find out who is the leak. And that's what the script does in a very kind of flirty way

over the next hour or so. Here's a clip. You are one naughty husband, George. You asked how it works. To be with someone in this business, this is how. You each know what you know and you know what you will do and you never discuss certain things again. I watch her, I assume she watches me. If she's in trouble, even of her own making,

I will do everything in my power to extricate her. No matter what that means. You understand? My god, that's so hot. So as you can hear from that, it's basically a sort of interpersonal relationship movie that happens to be in the spy world. There's one point where the character says, all you people do is F each other, which they do both literally and metaphorically. With all classic espionage movies, as with Tinker Tailor, in fact, there is a lot of Tinker Tailor

in this because it's not really about spying, it's about lying. It's about groups of people lying to each other. Yes, the action plays out over a number of territories. It's got satellite surveillance. It's got computer hacks. It's got international conflicts and shady handovers. But that's not what it's really about. What it's about is can you have a successful relationship in a world in which everyone's got their black bag areas? More than one character says, in this profession, it's just too easy to cheat. It's just the whole structure. That's what we do. In fact, one of the things about George is that he hates liars. In Sex, Lies and Videotape, there's the James Spader character who says, liars and lawyers, the two things I hate, liars and lawyers. There's a weird callback to this in

that George hates lying and he runs a lie detector test. Apparently apparently he's the best lie detector tester anywhere in the business. So it comes back to that question that you heard in the clip, how do you make a marriage work in a situation in which everyone around you is sort of actually in the business of lying and spying and in which, I mean, bear in mind, his wife is under suspicion and in which there are these black bag areas. Then there's a great performance by Piers Brosnan, who is just fabulous. He's not in the film a lot, but when he's in it, he is absolutely fabulous.

I think it's, he almost steals the movie. David Homescore, which kind of really evokes the idea of a lot of junk being jangled around, being shaken to see what they think, but you know, he's throwing the rock and watch the ripples. I mean, it's nonsense in as much as I don't believe it. I don't believe it's actually real, but like presence, it's a kind of interesting genre exercise.

It's an exercising kind of genre subversion. You know, what would happen if we took a sort of, basically a sort of, you know, it's like a chamber play, a dinner party, and then we use that as the sort of, as the anchor for this kind of twisty espionage thriller that he's all about lying. So I enjoyed it. I don't think it'll stay with me at all. I thought it was just tactile and enjoyable at the time, but I did enjoy it. Stephen Soderbergh, he's just so

productive. He makes Ridley Scott look like he's slacking, frankly. That is surely not possible. Ridley is working faster than any other movie maker in the world. Ridley makes films quicker than Jack Thorne can write another bestselling drama. And the difference is Ridley makes massive films. Short. I mean, that's the thing. He makes them in like three months and they're Napoleon. Well, that's the end of take one. This has been a Sony Music Entertainment Production, this week's team, Jen, Eric, Josh, Vicki and Zachy, producer, Heather, redactor Simon

Poole. If you're not following the pod already, please do wherever you get your podcast. Mark, what is your film of the week? I can't say this strongly enough, please go see Sister Midnight. It's such an exciting film and it's got so many ideas in it. The performances are great and I really, really enjoyed it. Just don't say Wes Anderson. And our TV movie of the week is Adolescence, even though it's not a movie. Yeah. Thank you very much indeed for listening. Our second take, take two, has landed adjacent

to this one. If you are a subscriber, you can go listen to that. Thank you very much indeed. And as ever, it's correspondence at kerbidenmayo.com.