Kermode & Mayo’s Take - AVATAR: FIRE AND ASH: “like some nightmare furries convention”

Episode Date: December 18, 2025

Some exciting news—The Take is now on Patreon: www.patreon.com/kermodeandmayo. Become a Vanguardista or an Ultra Vanguardista to get video episodes of Take Two every week, plus member‑only chat rooms, polls and submissions to influence the show, behind‑the‑scenes photos and videos, the monthly Redactor’s Roundup newsletter, and access to a new fortnightly LIVE show—a raucous, unfiltered lunchtime special with the Good Doctors, new features, and live chat so you can heckle, vote, and have your questions read out in real time. Howdy Take listeners! We’re approaching the very end of the Christmas corridor—and we’ve got all the movie reviews you need to get you through the final push and onto the sofa eating Quality Street and turkey leftovers. First up, The Housemaid—Paul Feig’s psychological thriller starring Sydney Sweeney as a live-in maid for a family with dark secrets. Plus Marty Supreme, the high-speed Josh Safdie drama starring Timothée Chalamet as a aspiring table-tennis star in 1950s New York—and finally, Avatar: Fire and Ash. Regular listeners will know about Mark’s longstanding love for (slating) the Avatar films—so buckle up for a festive rant. The wonderful Paul Bettany—star of A Knights Tale, Dogville, and more recently the Marvel Cinematic Universe as both the voice of J.A.R.V.I.S. and as Vision—is our guest this week. He’s with us to discuss the new Sky adaptation of Amadeus—in which he plays Salieri, the frustratedly mediocre nemesis of Will Sharpe’s Mozart. The Oscar-winning 1984 film adaptation is Simon’s favourite movie of all time—but will Bettany win him over to this new TV version? They unpack it and talk music, the truth about Mozart, and whether Paul will ever direct again. Thanks for listening, and Merry Christmas ya filthy animals! Timecodes (for Vanguardistas listening ad-free) The Housemaid review – 11:17 BO10 – 20:34 Paul Bettany Interview: 28:20 Laughter Lift – 53:55 Marty Supreme review 57:55 Avatar Fire & Ash review 1:10:24 You can contact the show by emailing [e-mail] or you can find us on social media, @KermodeandMayo Please take our survey and help shape the future of our show: https://www.kermodeandmayo.com/survey EXCLUSIVE NordVPN Deal ➼ https://nordvpn.com/take Try it risk-free now with a 30-day money-back guarantee! A Sony Music Entertainment production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts and follow us @sonypodcasts To advertise on this show contact: [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This episode is brought to you by Mooby, the global film company that champions great cinema. From iconic directors to emerging otters, there is always something new to discover. With Mooby, each and every film is hand-selected so you can explore the best of cinema. This festive season, you can find a collection of film streaming on Moobie in the UK that explore the connections between food and cinema. Including streaming now on Mooby, Phantom Thread. If you've been to the cinema and you've seen one back, battle after another and you think, wow, that Paul Thomas Anderson, he can really direct. Then check

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We salute you. He hasn't got any curtains. Hey, oh, hey, oh. We wish you health this time appear with our sailing song. To members here and far and wide, we will not. ling along. We're big and buzzy and we've got balls along with Jason our friend. We promise not to dwell on this we don't want to offend. We sail, we sail with joy to one and all. To thank our least us also you have a where we're full. With cider toast we come to you with noisy pots

and pans. We all still have our speedos on because we've just been to France. We thank the great production team with Pullim a Ptoly face No mention of the phantom ennace Disgrace Wasail, was sail With joy to one and all To gangardistas I salute you are aware with all Mark was renting far too much guitar fell off the wall

After his promotional tour He could hardly speak at all Simon's hands stunned by a wasp He did not make a dim calmly carried on and took some anti-histamine We sail, we sail with joy to one and all To rang God Easter's we salute you are well with all Whale, we sail with joy to one and all

To rang Godistas we salute you are aware with all Hey That was a very small towel he had on Yeah, he's just show enough It's another wassail from our friend, Kenohara, who says, Dear Plant and Tinned Pineapples, once again, the witter wassailers wish big bad selves, the phenomenal production team, and all church members are very joyous yule tide. I hope you may have a little slot for our new ditty, rounding up a few of the years' highlights.

I'd forgotten about the wasp. Yes. I've forgotten the guitar falling off the wall because I got so cross. First of all, may I give a shout out to Neil in the hairdressers? I was just leaving the most excellent McIntyre's Barbarista in Prestwick. They sell coffees as well. When a voice was heard, Ah, the famous Canoehara.

In some uncertainty regarding the reference, I turned round. Sorry, famous, I inquired. Kerber de Mayo wasailing songs, came the reply. Yay. Ah, we chatted, shook hands, and I went on my merry way with a smile. Also, if I may, a shout out to the great Friends of Broadway, Prestwick. The Ardecker Cinema has been closed since 1976, and the volunteer group is working to restore it with the goal of reopening it as a cinema

and multi-use venue. In November this year, the team presented the arrested decay auditorium, the biggest cinema auditorium in Scotland, and the largest screen in Ayrshire. The original cinema had 1,060 seats. Wow. Soon the Broadway will rise from the ashes and movie magic will once again not only enthrall with a projection of 35mm film through the restored machines, complete with xenon bulbs, but with the added bonus of having the only museum of Scottish cinema in the country. Anyway, I hope you enjoy the Wasailing Ditty, and I look forward to continued insight, education, titillation, who are misses, rants and reviews from yourselves and the church members alike, and as an added mini feature, may I suggest to sign off of the first film your

correspondence ever saw? Tinkety Tonkin, down with the Tangerine tyrant, and up with midterm blue waves. Kenahara, LTL, Vanguardista, performer of solo theatre, owner of seven hats, including an Indiana Jones fedora made by the original Hatter Herbert Johnson, and Estets an Open Road, as featured in From Dusk Till Dawn. First film, McKenna's Gold. Wow. Well, how about that?

Very good. Very, very good. Ken, thank you. I mean, I'd forgotten how much we enjoyed the wassailing ditty at this time of year. Also, did you, that tin of pineapples and plant, that's porridge, isn't it? It's porridge, yeah, yeah. That's a plant, no, it's not, it's a tin of pineapples. So thank you very much. We appreciate that, and I shall replay it, I think, a couple of times. Kent, we appreciate that. Thank you very much indeed.

what is lined up to appear on this show as far as you're concerned? Well, we've got a fully packed show. We're going to have reviews of The House Maid, which is a psychological thriller from Paul Vig, Marty Supreme, which you've probably heard a lot about recently. There's been lots of promotional stuff about that. Avatar Fire and Ash, all three hours and whatever it is of it. And also, we'll be talking about the new version of Amadeus with our very special guest.

The one and only Paul Bettney, who plays Salieri in that new TV adaptation, which is on Sky. He does have a very annoying key ring, all of which will be explained a little bit later on. What's in Take Two? Take Two, we have a Silent Night, Deadly Night, which is out in Cinemars. Now we didn't get around to reviewing it last week, because last week's show was the live show that we had pre-wrecked. so blah, blah, blah. And also, Bowie, the final act, which is a new documentary about David Bowie.

Before we get to The House Made, a few words on Rob Reiner, who, as everyone will know, was murdered this week, along with his wife and their son has been arrested and charged, all of which will unfold. But it's been a spectacularly terrible end to the year

because I think anyone who's just read about Rob Ryan, anyone who's been to see his films. He brought so much joy to so many people. And he was clear, and sad to say, I never interviewed him. But he just seemed like a joyful man. And everyone who worked with him would say that they would just carry on. They'd be perfectly happy to work with him. Whatever he asked them to do, they would turn up because he was such a delight to work for.

I mean, he was the kind of definition of somebody who could turn their hand to anything, any genre. In terms of when we did the Secrets of Cinema on rom-coms, the very first episode of Secret of Cinema, I think actually would be the one that kind of started everything. A huge amount of that program was about when Harry met Sally. This year Spinal Tap is probably one of the most quoted movies of all time. Because this year we had, you know, the end continues, which is coming back to Spinal Tap again. a brilliant interpreter of the works.

I'm sorry, it seems so weird to just sort of be listing the achievements, but, you know, the works of Stephen King, Castle Rock, just somebody who could turn their hand to absolutely anything. And I just want to say this one thing, because I think it is important. I am always convinced that the depravity of the incumbent in the White House, there is nothing that person could do anymore that would shock me. But I think that person's response to this is obscene, absolutely obscene.

And I was for the first time in a very long time, genuinely speechless at the just the vileness. Also, just to highlight that. When Charlie, this isn't what we talk about, I know, but we're kind of, it's part of the Rob Reiner story. When Charlie Kirk was assassinated, Rob Reiner was interviewed and he was appalled, genuinely appalled. So whatever your political reviews, no one deserves this. It was shocking, condemned it, you know, was absolutely clear and categorical about what he thought about that

kind of violence. He was very, very clear. So for then, for any politician not to be able to have the words and the intelligence to be able to step back and go, we disagreed about many things, but what an extraordinary talent, you know. And then to go that step further and say, maybe it was caused by Trump derangement syndrome, which we were laughing about. Didn't say maybe. And literally no one had suggested that. Anyway, let's not get to trap. No, no, no.

Let's just mention Princess Bride as well, because when you look at the work that he did, it wasn't just that he had this extraordinary run of films, but they were so influential. Yeah. And so clever and so smart. and not all in one genre. As you just mentioned, you know, two Stephen King's, a nice one and a nasty one. Spinaldap, when Harry met Sally and Princess Bride,

some of the best films I have ever seen in my life and all made by Rob Reiner. The thing it's really important to remember is in the past, in the kind of the great, you know, the great history of filmmaking. And of course, you know, Rob Reiner before Carl Reiner, what you used to call a Journeyman director, which incidentally was not a criticism.

It meant can do. anything can turn their hands to anything. That's what great filmmakers were. Great filmmakers were people who could turn their hand to anything. When you look at Rob Reiner's CVs, directorial CV, it is across everything. It is comedy. It's horror. It's coming of age. It's courtroom drama. It's, you know, everything is there. I forgot to mention a few good men. Yes, of course. Yeah, I mean, which, you know, you can't handle the trick. It's, it is, everything is there. And I think that we, it is worth remembering that I said in, in the great days of

filmmaking, that was what you thought of as a brilliant filmmaker. You said, you know, John Ford turned, turned to hand to anything. That was the kind of the mark of real talent. Correspondence at cerminameo.com. I mentioned Paul Bettney being our guest. I apologise for my voice, by the way, but it's one of those time of view. There'll be further discussion on Paul Bettin's best roles in one frame back. Question Schmessens will be there in take two, which we answer the excellent question.

What is a fact so mind-blowing that it seems impossible? All that to come. Also, there are movies to review like The Housemaid. So let's start with The Housemaid. So it's like the 90s never happened. So this is an adaptation of a novel by Freedom McFadden, which I haven't read. adapted by Rebecca Sonn and Shine and directed by Paul Figg.

Is it Figue? Figue. Figue. Feeg. Feeg. Feeg. Whose CV includes the brilliant bridesmaids, divisive ghostbusters, the last Christmas,

also divisive, but largely on the not great side. And then another simple favour, which, for my money, was one of the worst films released in 2025. This is a step up from that, although frankly, slicing off the end of your thumb with a cheese grater is better than that. So the tagline,

can you keep a secret? This is a movie that I think imagines itself to be a throwback to the great days of psychological film noir. In fact, it is almost indistinguishable from that spate of sort of sub-erotic thriller, property, horror, yuppie type yarns that filled the shelves of blockbuster video in the 1990. So Sidney Sweeney, she of the controversial jeans advert and the, all the rest of it, is Millie, housemaid, sleeping in her car, desperately in need of work, which she finds at the swanky home of Amanda Safereads Nina Winchester, who is this controlling rich housewife, mother to an annoyingly brattish daughter, and wife of the unbelievably hunky Andrew, Brandon Sclenar, whose smile and smarmy demeanour tells us right from the very beginning

that he is not what he seems. Of course, no one in the film is what they seems. Millie hasn't mentioned that she's on parole. Nina doesn't fess up immediately to the fact that she spent some time in sightboards. And Andrew fails to mention that this isn't his first time at the rodeo fellas. Now, I say first time at the rodeo fellas

because that, of course, is a line from Mommy Dearest, and that is a deliberate connection because everything in this film is overcooked. I mean, it's kind of, it's, It's essentially, it's an overcut comedy posing as a psychological thriller in which everything goes up to 11. This is a clip of Millie's arrival at the house and her introduction to Andrew, who would have been here earlier, but he's been detained at his handsome lessons. Here's a clip. Hi, you must be Cece.

I'm Millie. Hello. Oh, hey. Hi, you met Millie. Hi, baby. Millie's going to be living with us and she's going to be helping with the cooking and the cleaning and you know what?

She might even play Candy Land with you if you ask her with a pretty please. She's going to live with us. Yes, Andrew, I told you that. I said she was going to be living in the guest room in the attic. Isn't this place look incredible? Look at it. Thank you.

Well, Millie, welcome. Thank you. Are you hungry? I'm sure we can turn this dinner for three into a dinner for? No, I'm probably just going to go upstairs and get all settled in. You sure? If you don't mind, I'll just come down afterwards and tidy up.

Yeah, get settled. Take your time. We're so happy that you're here. Yeah. And there are no points for guessing that nobody is really happy that they're there or to be there. Because Millie can't stand Nina and she doesn't get on with the kid. And she's sort of right from the beginning kind of got the hots for Andrew. He does a lot of walking around in a vest.

you know, in a vest that shows off his huge arms and pecks. I do that. I do that. Yeah, but you don't probably do it in the kind of way that he does it. It's probably, that's more in a John Major way, isn't it? Maybe if Sidney Sweeney was walking around, I would... No, I wouldn't do it then. No, no, no, you wouldn't.

Absolutely not. So anyway, Ben, he smiles a lot, which is something he was taught to do by his Ice Queen Mother, who is played by Elizabeth Perkins, who seems to be the one person in the whole thing who has really got the measure of it. realized that, you know, okay, fine, I know where we are. We're in mommy dearest territory. So, again, there's no surprise for thinking, you know, Nina is going to get increasingly crazy

and that Millie and Andrew will get increasingly crazy. And anyone, if you, you know, if you remember any of those films like Hand the Rocks the Cradle, Sleeping with the Enemy, single white female, any of any number of those kind of slightly sexy, scary, yuppie property things, you know, from, it's, it's kind of one of those. What is surprising is just how much cheese Paul Feig decides to pour all over this smorgasbord of borrowed riffs and B-movie

tropes. I mean some of the sexy time scenes are, I mean, literally you're going, hey, I can't now, is this ironic or is it deliberately naff? Because I actually, I actually

can't tell. And because as with Mommy Dearest, the best kind of camp is the camp that sort of happens by mistake. But it's not like Paul Feig doesn't know what camp is. And there are some cues, there are some musical cues, which are just, okay, again, are we laughing at it or are we laughing with it? And, you know, the intimacy, the intimacy scenes, they're like, there was a, there was a guy who used to direct erotic thrillers in the 90s called Jagmundra. And this literally makes Jagdra look like Stanley Kubrick's edgier brother. And at first, you find yourself laughing at the movie.

later you're laughing with it, but you're still wondering, as you're laughing with, because the last section of it goes, you know, crazy go nuts, you think, okay, fine, maybe have they been in on the joke all the time? The whole thing is trash. I mean, whether knowingly or accidentally, I'm genuinely not sure. It's two and a quarter hours long, and it needed to be shorter than that. But I saw it in the same screening as Simon Brew. Simon Brew from film stories was there. And we both came out at the end, And Simon said the same thing, which was the wheels really come off in the last half an hour. And that's the thing that you remember. In a way, I think because the last half hour is more than three quarters of an hour is what it is like.

It's like, okay, well, that was clearly, they knew that all along that was the tone of the film. But I did keep thinking, this is, this is Mummy Dearest, remade as a straight to video, 90's erotic thriller. and it's trash, it's cheesy trash, but entertaining, and like I said, you'll just find you find yourself going, am I laughing with or at it? It doesn't matter because I'm kind of enjoying the nonsense of it. Yeah, because cheesy trash can be good. There's a type of cheesy trash. Yeah, absolutely. Okay, is that a 15, would you say? I can tell you exactly what it is. It is, because I was going to get the BBC advice at 15 for strong violence. Injury detail, sex, sexual violence and very strong language.

Okay, 15 all round then, I would say. Patreon is up and running, by the way, lots of lovely things, lots of extra video content, extra shows, which we do. When do we do those shows, Mark? We do them biweekly. We do them biweekly, meaning we do them every two weeks, not twice a week. Yes. And you get access to take one and take two ad-free, as well as the fortnightly Take Ultra

show loads of other stuff over on Patreon, including the vote for the new inductee into the Hall of Fame. Just follow all the links and everything will be very straightforward. Back in just a moment with Mark, what are you going to be doing? Immediately after the break.

I don't know. What does it say on the script? Marty Supreme, Avatar, Fire and Ashes and Amadeus, plus my chat with Paul Bettney. So that's what we're saying between this. So you say the first bit and then I say Paul Bettney. Okay. And then we both clamour in.

wild anticipation. Hooray. Well, do you want me to say it now or we're just going to do that? No, no, I think everyone's got the message. Incidentally, the housemaid is out on December the 26th. All the stuff I'm reviewing at the moment is out on December the 26th. Thank you. Mark, I was just wondering, you know, as I do, how do you keep your internet connection

Elfie this Christmas? Boomtish, use NordVPN for dark web alerts or to help protect you from hackers while browsing public Wi-Fi? Not healthy. Elfie. Like maybe using NordVPN to watch Harry Potter whilst in Lapland on a one-horse open sleigh? Sounds a little complicated. Not with Nord's mobile app and the ability to use across multiple devices. Have a healthy Elfy time this Christmas browsing with Nord VPN. I'll be using it for extra security on public Wi-Fi when I travel as well as streaming films using virtual

location switching. And to help spread the festive spirit we're offering listeners a discount on Nord's two-year plan. With NordVPN, you can travel the world faster than a private jet, minus the carbon footprint. Unwrap a huge discount on NordVPN by heading to NordVPN.com slash take. Plus, with our link, you'll get an extra four months for free on the two-year plan, and it's risk-free with Nord's 30-day money-back guarantee. Check the link in the description. Now, Simon, if our beloved redactor would be offered a mind-blowing new job and abandon us tomorrow... Hard to imagine, but go on. We would be on the lookout for a replacement. I mean, surely he's irreplaceable.

He is, but that aside, the candidates who match what we're looking for, elite-level Christmas cracker joke writing, a track record of working with top talent. And we do mean top. We'd be wise to try Indeed-sponsored jobs. They help you stand out and hire quality candidates who can drive the results you need. Spend more time interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Less stress, less time, more results now with Indeed-sponsored jobs. And listeners of this show will get a 100%

sponsored job credit to help get your job the premium status it deserves at Indeed.com slash Kermode Mayo. Just go to Indeed.com slash Kermode Mayo right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this here podcast. Indeed.com slash Kermode Mayo. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring, do it the right way with Indeed. Box office top ten coming up in just a moment. I just wanted to read you this, an edited version, something that's turned up on Facebook from a guy called Jim Rigby. Other people may well have seen versions of this. The headline is Christians for Herod. This year, some Christians should make Herod the star of their nativity scene. First of all, Herod was a winner,

unlike the loser shepherds and the magi who came from the loser countries. Herod was a builder. He knew how to fix things. He would probably replace the lowly manger with a golden throne. He ran the nation like a business. He brought great wealth to any who served his purposes. It is true that Herod ordered the massacre of the innocence, but it was only to make the nation safer. The angels who sang peace on earth goodwill to men were all probably globalists.

Don't listen to them. He was legally named king by the Roman Senate. He silenced any attempts at sharing power with the people. He was definitely a winner. And isn't that the important thing to celebrate this Christmas? So make Herod to the centrepiece of your Christmas celebration. Okay, box office top 10, at 14, Home Alone 2, lost in New York. Starring a cameo appearance by Herod.

Yes. Number 12, the Polar Express, 20th anniversary 4K restoration. Firstly, I can't believe it's 20 years of Polar Express. Someone appears to be called Swack, oh I mentioned last week, the soulless dead-eyed polar express is the only argument I can think of in favour of the ice caps melting. Oh, it's a little harsh, I think.

I never liked it. Never liked it, sorry. I read it as a book to Child One, I think. So therefore I was well disposed towards it. Number 10, The Shining, 45th anniversary. I mean, 45th anniversary, it's not really a, I mean, it is the 45th anniversary, but it's not so much, it's not a 50th or 100th, is it?

I know, I know. Well, it's back in Cinema, and it's, there is an, presentation of it, and it is the longer American cut, so it's got the room of corpses in it, so, you know. James says, while accepting Mark's case that Kubrick's the Shining isn't King's the Shining, the Shining. The sharp

disconnect is true of many, if not most films derived from books, from Gone with the Wind, to Blade Runner. Is it King's greatness that leads to the Shining being held up as an archetypal case? Well, it's interesting because it's King himself who doesn't like the Stanley Kubrick Shining.

And I was talking to Flanagan about this just recently because I was doing a thing about Stephen King. And he said, the thing you have to remember is that for Stephen King, the story of a, you know, somebody fighting with sobriety and fighting with their own worry about what they may do to those close to them, but then actually having a story which does have a redemptive arc in it is very personal. And so Stephen King looking at the shining, the Kubrick shining, in which Jack is just crazy from the outset, Stephen King is never going to be able to go, okay, that's fine. You can think it's a brilliant film, but it's, like I said, the problem is Stephen King doesn't

like it. Home Alone is at number nine, first one. Yeah. See it on a double bill with straw dogs and realize that they are both the same film. Number eight in the UK, number seven in America is eternity. I enjoyed much more than I thought I was going to. And Callum Turner, who of course stars in the forthcoming Rosa Nevada, the new film by Mark Jenkin, which is in cinemas in April of next year. Silent Night, Deadly Night is at number seven, number 13 in Canada. So we're going to do a full review of this in Take 2, because obviously because of the way that we recorded the live show, we didn't get the review of it in last week's show.

So full review of Silent Night, Deadly Night in Take 2. Subscribe now if you haven't already. Fackham Hall is at number 5. Now You See Me Now You Don't. Oh yeah, sorry. Now You See Me Now You Don't is at number six. But you'll wish you hadn't. And Fackham Hall is at number five?

And I didn't. Okay. Darren says, Draft, Downton Spoof, a solid provider of mild chuckles throughout, if never prompting belly laughs. Odd pivot to murder mystery in the middle, obvious from the beginning where it's heading.

I mean, life's too short. Durandah is at number four. This is Hindi language spy, action thriller. Hasn't been pressed screened. So if you've seen it, write in and let us know. Five Nights at Freddy's is number three. Five nights at Freddy's two. Five nights at Freddy's one was perfectly enough, more than enough.

Five nights at Freddy's two, and again, the great Kim Newman, it's killer toys. How do you mess that up? Wicked for good is it number two, number three in America. I'm apparently more of a fan of it than some people. I have a friend who said they're really glad that they broke Wicked into two parts because now they can just watch the first part. Oh, okay. Number one here, number one there, Zootropolis too. This is kind of fun.

Enjoyed it. And I like the first Zootropolis and the second one. It's, you know, it's more of the same, but I enjoyed it. Actually, I've missed that. Let's just flip back because Ella McKay has come out. It's number nine in America. Didn't chart here, but we should talk about that. I think it's number 15.

Let's hear a clip from it. It's a tale of the ties that bind us. Try not to judge. My husband right away. I'll try. You're not sliding. The people we can count on. Would you like to hear about my favorite community health program?

God, no. And the ones we can't. I'd like to acknowledge past actions for which I am ashamed. This is great we're doing this. And the surprises. I'm resigning immediately. Your governor. Congratulations.

You really couldn't have gotten this any other way. Well, that bring it all to a boil. Any last minute advice? Don't take Ambien more than three nights in a row. So you interviewed James L. Brooks about this, and that was the week before the film came out, which point I hadn't seen it. Then, as I keep saying, last week's show, we obviously we had the live shows that was in. So I have now seen it because I saw it in the week of release, but then blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Let me ask you this before I say anything.

Yes, yes. What did you think of it? I enjoyed it because I liked what that. It made, as I think we said in the interview, It made me feel nostalgic for like 15 years ago. Okay. And I thought Woody Harrelson was good. Yeah. I think Ellen McKay, who's not called Ella McKay, but, you know, very similar. I thought she was really well cast, actually.

She, and it felt like, you know, it did feel like a James L. Brooks thing. It felt like a Rob Reiner thing, you know, it felt like a, like a rom-com that they don't make anymore. So here's the weird thing for me. So I saw the, I heard your interview with James L. Brooks, and I'm a big fan of James L. Brooks. And then I went to the week of release screening, which was last week. But obviously, as I said, we pre-recorded the live show. And I saw the film. And I thought, all the things that you just said, I thought, I kind of felt like a, it's a kind of warm bath of a film.

Yeah, right? Yeah. I came out and critics were like saying, it's the worst thing I've ever seen. It's the worst thing I've ever seen. Literally, people were like, and I don't know. I said, no, it's fine. And two, three critics said to me, it was terrible. And then I saw there was a news story about how bad the reviews were.

Now, I haven't read those reviews because I can't be bothered to, but it was one of the weirdest disconnects I've had in a very long time. I sat there watching the film, enjoying the film, thinking exactly all those things that you just said that it was, you know, decency goodness, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And isn't Jack Loudon a good actor? Yeah, yeah. And then genuinely came out and not one, not two, but three different critics said to me, that's just, isn't it terrible?

And I was going, no. No, I mean, it's not life-changing, but it's perfectly fine, isn't it? It was, honestly, Simon, it was weird. I struggle to remember the last time it was so like, were we in the, did we watch the same film? Bizar. Very bizarre. Anyway, so we're giving it a thumbs up. Yeah, yeah. Number 15 in the charts obviously hasn't, you know, partly apparently because of the reviews, which I haven't said, I haven't read, but I've seen that there was a new story about how bad the reviews were. We're going to be back in just a moment when Mark, I'm just going to do this. Mark will be talking about Marty Supreme, Avatar, Fire and Ash, and Amadeus, which means that our special guest is Paul Bettney, the news Salieri, in a moment. this is not a drill for the first time in lipstick on the room history a real housewife has entered the studio

and not just any housewife rachel zo the fashion legend herself did we expect styling stories glam chaos stories from the past decade and a full cat-eye at all times yes did we expect her to open up about divorce rediscovering herself joining housewives as a zero prep and what it feels like to finally feel like her again? No. It is vulnerable, iconic, hilarious, and one of our favorite conversations ever. The Real Housewives have officially entered the chat. Listen now. Right now, the excellent news is that this week's guest is Paul Bettany, best known for, well, I mean, to be honest, where do you start? Jarvis and Vision in the Marvel Cinematic Universe, Wanda Vision, the Disney Plus series

Primetime Emmy Award nomination for that. Gangston No. 1, which Mark will constantly fantastic performance in a gangster number one. An Night's Tale, A Beautiful Mind, Master and Commander, Dogville, Wimbledon, the Da Vinci Code and Margin' Cool, but transcendence,

which still has not been re-evaluated despite Mark thinking that it would be in 2014. He now plays Salieri in Sky's new series Amadeus. Thank you. Thank you for showing me what you are. You gave me the desire to praise you and then made me mute. You put into me the perception of the incomparable and then ensured that I would know myself forever mediocre. Thank you. Thank you. What have I ever done to you?

Straight from the path, I came back to you, I came back to you, I promised myself to you, to piety. And that's a clip from the new Sky Show, which is Amadeus, and I'm delighted to say that Paul Bettney, who plays Salieri, the court composer, is back in our studio. Hello, Paul. How are you? I'm so well, thank you for having me. Very, very nice. Although I've just seen you've got an Arsenal key ring. I'm tempted to cancel the interview. You come all this way, over from America. I know. I know.

Just to be smug. Just to be smug, yeah. Yeah. But you do have a lovely stadium. That is, you see the... Oh, it's lovely. I haven't said anything. That is a put-down worthy of Mozart to Salieri.

That is the kind of thing that Mozart would have said. I love your new stadium. It's so shiny. And he'd say it exactly like that. Very good. So we're not far from, we're not far from our conversational. subject today, which is a TV version of Amadeus, a famous film, of course, Peter Schaffer Play in 1979,

which I went to. I saw Frank Finley. Oh, wow, really? Wow. And when I was coming in, because I don't know if I was told you, but Amadeus is my favorite film of all time. Oh, I love the movie. Okay, so this is, so I'm just telling you everything.

And you know how Spotify and Apple, when it gets to December, they send you a list of everything that you've listened to the most. Right. Okay, I'm now handing you my phone. So I can't fake this, all right? It will tell you my favorite albums of 2025, just say what they are. You can scroll to see the rest of them. I scroll up.

No, no, see where it says favorite albums. Oh, Mozart, Mozart, the next one, third one, Mozart, fourth one. Wow. Fifth one. Mozart. There you go. Mozart.

Wow. All the way. I listened to Mozart more than anything else. I didn't realize it was quite that much, which is like I'm sorry. It's amazing. It's an obsession. It kind of is. Anyway, so this is the baggage that I'm bringing. Yes. To this show. Understood.

Introduce us to what you have done. Will Sharp plays Wolfgang Amadeus. Mozart. You're both incredible in the roles. It's incredibly watchable. It looks beautiful. The music is, of course, sublime introduced us to what you've done here.

Well, I got an offer to play Salieri. And I was initially quite frightened by the idea and then I thought well lots of people play Iago or Hamlet and then I thought but why are we doing this again because

I love the play but I also love the Milosh Formum film in fact I think it's maybe his last great film and and F. Murray Abraham is sublime in it And then I read Joe Barton's scripts and realized we were doing something different. And it's different enough that I think the interpretation is worthwhile.

Both the play and the film are sort of from a mono perspective of Sally Ares. And it is the genius of Schaefer's play is what does it feel like to not be the genius? But in this, we also, it's a two-hander. It's a true two-hander, which the play and the film aren't. And we look into what the burden of that genius might feel like and look like. And I had questions about what it was like to have music in your head the whole time. And my son is a classical composer. My son is, he's at Royal College.

of music doing his master's in classical composition and I asked him about it and he said oh it's all the time I have competing melodies sometimes and I have to write one down otherwise it's it it drives me insane so A and one he was a great resource for me B and two it really gave it made me believe in the production and then I just swung for the fences with it because it's such it's such a great role it's and it's such a I iconic villain, I think, because he's so vulnerable. This is Salieri. Salieri.

Yeah. And he's so broken and feels the injustice of God having chosen Amadeus and not him. And it literally drives him mad, tries into distraction. What a fantastic resource to have. resource to have your son being a composer and having music in his head, just to be able to ask him what that's like. That is not a resource that's available to many. He helped me so much. I mean, with conducting and the conducting, we do a sort of hybrid in the show.

Conducting then was very metronomic and without emoting. um quite dull to look at and film so so we um we did a sort of uh hybrid between that without a baton and um and also being expressive with the left hand okay so will sharp uh plays amadeus how does he how has so if we've got two point of view characters it's it's you and it's also mozart what kind of is he similar to the tom hull's character that we've seen in the film how does how has he He's still an insufferable, arrogant, egotistical, alcoholic genius. Yes, and he sort of dug more into maybe a sort of neurodivergent man who says exactly the first thing that comes into his mind and is quite impulsive like an animal.

I think a lot of people, I did think, I mean, I don't have the ability to diagnose, but I thought, okay, he's got ADHD, this. yes and you know there is there are there it's this and this i found quite interesting there is some uh historical evidence that mozart towards the end of his life um as he became ill became quite paranoid and was convinced that salieri was undermining him and people were like absolutely not because he really a salieri was actually seemed to be a pretty stand-up fellow who was a mentor to Mozart and mentored many young musicians. In actual fact, my son's mentor, Dr. Agoche, he first trained in Boston at the New England Conservatories now at the Rural College of Music. but Dr. Rego, so my son's great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, the mentorship can be traced, which is kind of great. That is quite spooky, don't you think?

Yeah. There's a frisson there. Okay. So your Salieri, the whole series is like a confession, really. That's how we start. He's not confessing to a priest, however. He's confessing to Constanza, which I thought was quite a clever conceit if you wanted to look at Constanza's role in all of this. He's Mozart's wife.

Yes, Constanza is Mozart's wife. and she was really his rock but moreover was very active in saving his manuscripts and curating his legacy, really. I mean, you know, Mozart died in penury and she is the person that turned Mozart into a business, really. I mean, she did.

You've hinted at the fact that it's not true, basically. the story of Salieri's mad rage against Mozart maybe he killed him or maybe he was responsible for his death my recollection of the play is that he actually poisons Mozart anyway but that all came from what you're suggesting from maybe a kind of madness that Mozart had when he thought Salieri was out to get him and then there was a Pushkin play called Mozart and Salieri

so it all was kind of like it's a social media rumour mill pylon basically that's what's happened Yes, I mean, I guess we will never know, and at the end of Salieri's life, he went insane and said he murdered Mozart, but there doesn't seem to be any evidence that that is true, and I just wonder if in all of this, there was some, as Salieri was losing his mind, some sort of feeling that perhaps he had pushed Mozart too hard, or, you know, I mean, there was a fever sweeping through Vienna at the time, which is probably what carried him off. I mean, the other thing that we know, apparently, one reference says that Amadeus swirled up like a balloon to three times his size, vomited and died, which is kind of an awful last image. I think Will pitched it. But nobody was interested in. It sounds like Mr. Creosote from Monty Python. Exactly.

That's exactly how Will described it. That's what that sounds like. But the heart of your series and the heart of the film and the heart of the play is this rage, Salieri's rage, that he cannot work out why God has cursed him, that effectively Mozart has removed God from his life, that Mozart has been blessed by God. And Salieri, a devout man, is not being blessed at all. And that is still at the heart of everything. It's at the heart of everything. I actually found it quite difficult to attach to the idea of God. So in my head I made it a shared father and a prodigal son story where he cannot understand how his father's love is being lavished on this disgusting creature.

And he's, yeah, he's driven to distraction. It drives him to murder. And I think the heart of that, when we watch, you watching Mozart, we can see the jealousy sort of consume you. I mean, because that's what happens. Because you cannot deal with. I mean, it is astonishing that all of these extraordinary melodies and these wonderful operas and the wonderful concertos and all the things that are on my Apple playlist that I listen to all the time, all came from this one guy, didn't have a very long life, had extraordinary gifts, but equally clearly annoyed a lot of people

by the way he behaved. Absolutely. I mean, I was, my son told me an amazing story. He was, we were in the Sistine Chapel. And in the Sistine Chapel, there's a balcony where, from which Mozart heard Le Miserere. And it is, it was never written down. And it was never to be written down on pain of death. And he heard it, this piece of choral music, so beautiful that the Pope had declared it a sin to write it down. At the age of 13 years old, and he left and he went home and he wrote it all out after one hearing and brought it back. Do you believe that? Apparently, that's a true story.

Is there anyone who can portray being really annoyed better than Rory Keneer? Because we have the too many notes thing, and he's the Emperor Joseph 2nd. And he spends his whole life being annoyed. It's so good. It's such a clever interpretation of that line because it's so indelibly in my head from the movie. And he did a whole new thing with it, and it's great, and that's all I can hear now. So I'm enjoying the series enormously. I do need to make you, the last time we spoke,

I think it was because you'd made your directorial debut with a movie called Shelter. Yes. This is 2014. Yes. And your wife, Jennifer Connolly, was in it. And I was kind of thinking, oh, this is interesting. So maybe you're going to be doing some more of that.

And Kate Winslet has just directed her first movie. Did it make you... So was doing Shelter not a good experience for you? Did he not want to do more? It was the best and worst. experience of my professional life. I loved it and I hated it. I absolutely want to do it again. Directing is all consuming. I mean, it's really for others to judge, but I think it made me a better actor and much more understanding of directors and editors. I think I got to a place

as an actor where if I didn't trust a director I was working with, I could limit the options that they had in an editing room. And being a director and editing performances, I realized what a disservice I was doing to myself and to the director and the production in general. So I think it made me more generous, but it is all-consuming. And maybe that changes as you get better at it, but I was pretending to play with my children on the weekend, but actually my head was absolutely in the movie. But I wasn't actually in my life with my family at all. And that's not just the length of the production. Then you're into editorial. It's a long process being a director. But yes, I would like to do it again. I just want to find the right thing.

What do we see in next after Amadais? Well, I'm about to, I'm going to shoot a small thing in the Tom Ford movie. And then my show Vision Quest, which I made for Marvel last, this year, which is shaping up in the edit to be bunkers and I think it's great and so mad like a fever dream. I mean, it's really... You've had a good time then? I had such a great time on that. It was wonderful. That's Vision Quest coming next year?

Yeah. Okay. Paul Bettney, don't leave it another 10 years before you come back and talk to us again. I'd love to come back. But thank you. And when you come back, if you could just have your team as being like just not top of everything. That's what I'm saying. That's all I'm saying.

I live near the ground. Imagine what it's like. That's the most spursy thing I've ever heard. Paul, thank you very much Thank you I hate smug Arsenal fans They're just insufferable Don't you find that

Don't they come up to you all the time And they go oh look at my Arsenal key ring Oh aren't we great Simon Paul has just put Ha ha ha ha what's a legend Well he's one of the insufferable smug brigade Of course Anyways just now

Paul Ben he's always a fascinating Conversation But what a great resource to find out that your, you know, that your son is studying music and has all these tunes in his head. Yeah. So Stellan Connolly, Batteni, who is just looking up, who does indeed have a very impressive career. So two things to say about this. Firstly, I love Paul Bettany. I love Paul Bettany's voice. I mean, there is something, I don't know what it is. He's got something about the way he pronounces words. I just, I could listen to him talk all day long, and I was very, very

jealous that you got to speak to him because I remember the first time I saw him in gangster number one. I just thought, wow. And that was, you know, he's up against Malcolm McDowell in that film. And I just, I thought he was astonishing. So in terms of the, of the new Amadeus, so I've seen the first two episodes, which is a couple of hours of it. How much have you seen now? Yeah, same. Yeah, I've seen the first two. And I think the thing that's kind of fascinating is so Amadeus is your favorite film of all time and I was thinking there was a point

when they were going to make a mini-series of The Exorcist and it was going to be written by Bill Blattie in fact Bill Blattie had written the script for it and this is back in the 90s and it never happened but the reason he wanted to do it was because it enabled him to put back in all the things that they weren't able to get into the film

because the film was only you know two hours long so the carl and elvirus subplot all that sort of stuff all the other stuff with with kingdom and all the back stories and i remember thinking i don't know how i'd feel about it but you know but if it if it's bill blatti's project then then maybe it would be interesting so so watching the first two episodes of amadeus which i enjoyed very much and i what i couldn't do was distinguish between because i don't know the film amadais as well as you do i've seen it like a couple of times. There are things in it that are absolutely iconic and it was interesting him talking about the way, let's revisit that line. Is there a way of doing it? Because things

become so definitive, you know. And I was thinking, firstly, the whole conceit of this, which was, it's very interesting to hear that, I mean, the thing about it's a paranoid conceit, but it's kind of, okay, let's make it real. All that stuff, it's a brilliant play. It's a brilliant idea and that central thing which Paul Bettney says, it's the world seen through the eyes of the person who isn't the chosen one, wasn't who hasn't been blessed by. I mean, even that clip that you played of him railing at God, you know, why did you gave me the ability to understand this stuff and then you poured it all into that wretched vessel. I just love that idea. And I think that the way in which that dynamic works works really well in this.

My only question is, having now watched two hours of it, and I think the film is, it's under three, isn't it? Oh, yeah, yeah, fine. And we're only sort of now at the early stages of the story. Tell me, what is it bringing to the table that's substantially different to what's in the film? Because an awful lot of it, I was thinking, I really like this, I really love Paul Bettney doing,

it. And he was saying, you know, we have reinvented it. And there's a whole, there's lots of stuff which, which isn't in the film. But substantially, what has changed? I think the stuff that's changed is later on. I had a conversation with fall afterwards and he tells me, he told me how it finishes. Oh, okay. Which sounds very different. Okay. But obviously I don't want to talk about that. No, no, no, fine. Because I haven't seen it. And also, you know, it's right at the end. But at the moment, it seems, it seems very, very similar. Okay, fine. So it's not just me, not not remember it it it we are on fairly known territory so far for the first two episodes yes yes i think i think we are so therefore we're following the play and we're following the film okay

and so yeah so rory caner is just hacked off all the time all the time uh which is which is very entertaining there are some shots of paul bettney where he looks like f murray abraham actually where they've they've made him um he has the face he's much taller and he's slimmer but they've given him a face like like f maria abraham anyway i thought i thought it was um i mean engaged enough to to go back and watch some more um it's cruder yes there's a thing when when he's thinking of um he's thinking of french matters and he's and he decides to take things into his own... Into his own hand.

Yes. And he fulfills the people. Promise of the moment. Yes. And also... You don't need to... Anyway. The scene when...

The scene when he says to Constanza, is it so terrible? Is it so terrible? You know, you are aware what I am offering you for this thing that is asking. I mean, that is, it is quite brutal in the thing, but how does that compare with the tone of the film? There's a different in the director's cut of Amadeus.

That's slightly racier than the version that everyone is familiar with. That's nipples of Venus, is it? Well, the nipples of Venus are actually, the nipples of venus are, of course, a piece of confectionery, but then the nipples, then that's a little bit more literal. But that's taken out of the film, so I don't know what you judge it again.

Yeah, yeah. So maybe they've taken the director's cut And they've run with that just a little bit. But anyway, you know, it's... But the thing is, it is a really good story, and it is a really good conceit. And I just love the idea of a story told from the point of view of the person who isn't the chosen one.

I just think that's smart. So you're going to say... Now, here's my one thing. And I would love to hear from people who know more about this than I do. A scriptwriter would be fantastic. So maybe we'd get a scriptwriter one. I have an issue, and again, I'm now framing this in my head based on the Pilean conversation. I have an issue not with swearing, but I have an issue with the way swearing is often used in films

because anything that takes you out of the moment is a failure, in my opinion. So they have made, the way they've made Mozart, the vile, you know, narcissist that he is, is that he's the one, he's the one F's and Jeffs all the time. Yeah. So that's fine. My books have got lots of swearing in. So I'm, you know, it's not the words themselves. It's just that I don't think it works.

Okay. Because you think it sort of smacks a modernity? Well, yes, that was one of the great things. So in the movie, Tom Hulse is clearly a vile, obnoxious genius. And they did, I don't think there's any bad language. They don't do that, they don't do the Tom Hulse laugh in this. I think that's very much Tom Hull's creation. That's a smart move to not do that.

Yeah. And Will's shop is very good. I'm just wondering, it's just when Effin and Jeffin is used in period pieces. It just think, really, is that what, I mean, maybe that is precisely what they have said, although they're obviously speaking in German and Italian and French. But anyway, it just felt as though it took me out of the moment. I thought, oh, was there a cleverer way of doing it? that. Yeah. That's all. I was reminded the one of my favorite moments in the film is when

the king, you know, him meets the woman. The emperor. The emperor meets the woman who faints. And he goes, and there it is. And you can imagine Rory Keneer saying precisely that. Correspondence at Kermitomeo.com. Anyway, it's the ads in a minute mark. Yes. But we're laughing already. We're laughing already. Through the germs and through my handkerchief, let's step one more time into our germ-filled laughter lift. Now, one of these jokes has been submitted by one of our ultras over on Patreon, okay? So I'm going to read all the jokes and then we have to get, and I don't know,

we have to guess which one has been written by a Patreon. Okay. Okay. So three from the usual suspect and one from a listener. Okay, so the good joke will be the one from the listener. Okay, so here we go. Okay. Well, Mark, I've got a special Christmas treat lined up for the Famolam over Crimbo.

You know, I can do a little bit of magic. Do you know that? Do you know I can do some magic? No, I did know you can. Yes, I thought it was a joke to be. Yes, no, I know you can do a bit of magic, yeah. Yes, well, I've got a new magic double act with a very clever dog from down the road. Okay.

What do you call a dog that can do magic, Mark? I don't know. What do you call a dog that can do magic? A labracadabridor. That's quite funny. That's quite funny. So that might be the listener. That could be patron.

Anyway, I went to the doctors last week. I said, Doctor, I keep twisting my body to the left and then twisting it to the right. He told me to go home and self-osolate. And I wondered about it. Self-isolate. Well, that's definitely a redactor joke. Yes, I think so.

That's definitely the redactor. Anyway, I was wandering down the high street in Shobies, North London this morning, and I saw a woman with a shopping trolley filled to the brim with four-leaf clovers, horseshoes and rabbits' feet. And I thought she's pushing her up. that's like a Tim Vine joke maybe that's the anyway

I don't know Mark whether you've got an Advent calendar but I've got the Hans Grover advent calendar oh right okay well I've got a special edition Russian one

every time you open a window an oligarchful so so I think I don't know maybe that I'm going to say, I think pushing her luck is the one that doesn't fit in there.

So I think that's the, that's the page. What do you think? I actually now think it's the oligarch. Yeah, it could well be. Anyway, Dave Bailey, I went to the doctors, kept twisting. Oh, it's the oscillating. Wow, I absolutely had that down as a redactor joke. No, it's Dave, Dave Bailey.

Thank you, Dave, who's a patron. Wow. Patronista? a patroniser There's patroniser, yes Anyway, there's lots of fun Like that Over on

Where are people patronising Mark, what's happening in our last bit? We're going to be reviewing A Marty Supreme And also Avatar Fire and Ash Okay, so a lot to come So, before we continue,

this is from Matthew in not-so-show-biz, northwest London. So in northeast, we kind of look down on people from northwest London. You do. Simon and Mark, you asked if any listener could beat being in the top 21% of fans. This is because of the Spotify thing where they tell you what your favourite podcast is and where you are in the global elite. Weird. Anyway, Matthew says, I'm in the top 2%.

Medium term listener, several-time email and never read out, but hopefully this is my chance. Up and down with the usual. And there it says, my top podcast, carbon amount's extra takes, minutes listened 13,882, top 2% of listeners worldwide, according to Spotify.com slash rapped. Is there anyone listening, presumably there is, who's in the top 1%. Yeah, there must be. that that absolutely must be. Okay, so let's put it this way.

Is there anyone who's in the top 1% who can be bothered to see this an email with proof? Anyway, there are a couple of very, very high-profile films still to come. You said these are all out on the 26th. Yes, so as I said, with the House Made Out on December 26th, also Marty Supreme,

which is the new film by Josh Safdi. Previously, best known as one half of the Safdi brothers with Benny, who created, heaven knows what, good times, uncut gems. And since, I think it was last year, they've been working solo. Benny made The Smashing Machine with Dwayne the Rock Johnson, and Josh has now made this with Timothy Shalame. So he co-wrote the script with Ronald Bronstein.

This takes inspiration, apparently, I know nothing about the background subject, takes inspiration from the life of US table tennis player Marty Reisman, of whom I did not know anything, although this has been called a fictionalized original rather than a biopic. there's inspiration, but it's not meant to be, you know, based on true. So it's best described, I think, as an ever so slightly psychotic screwball comedy with elements of an anxiety attack that kind of ping pongs its way through a series of increasingly calamitous, unfortunate events as our anti-hero who is kind of hyperactive attempts to finally put the ball over

the net to use the tennis analogy. So he is Marty Mouser. And he is this young Jewish guy who's constantly on the move, desperate to make it in the world of table tennis, the world of ping pong. He's brash, he's abrasive, he's obnoxious, he's incessantly in everybody's face. He's liberal in his use of absolutely jaw-dropping inappropriate. I mean, he says things that are like, wow, I'm just astonished that somebody just said that out loud. He needs money, of course. and he is convinced that his patented orange ping-pong ball,

which is apparently the multi-supreme of the title, will change the game and the world. He's also having an affair with Rachel, played by Odessa, a Zion, who is married to a brutish husband with whom he shall cross swords during the course of the drama. And very early on, he needs to get money, his employer won't give him money. So he goes to the employer's office, he pulls a gun, he says, give me the money that you owe me because I need to go,

because I've got to get this tennis, thing done, inveigles his way into the rink, goes to London, goes to the Royal Suite in the Ritz, and also in Vagels his way into the bed of this fading, this glamorous faded movie star now turned to theatre, played by Gwyneth Paltrow. Here is a clip from the trailer. Hello? Hey, it's Marty Mouser. I'm in the Royal Suite. I saw you in the lobby yesterday. Okay. Well, they never talked to an actual movie star. You know, I'm something of a performer, too.

Are you? Yeah, you don't believe me? I... You what? You got the daily mail in front of you? This is you? Yeah, the chosen one. It's a nice picture, right? I have a purpose.

And if you think that's some sort of blessing, it's not. It means I have an obligation to see a very specific thing through. And with that obligation, come sacrifice. Everything my life's falling apart, but I'm gonna figure it out. Do you need any help? I could help you. I know it's hard to believe. But I'm telling you this game that fills stadiums over overseas. And it's only a matter of time before I'm staring at you from the cover of Oweedy's

box. Very nice use of the Alphaville song there. Very good, very good. So, um, Gwyneth Palt, so, okay, I did, but there's no point in doing a whole bunch of plot because, but, but essentially that there is a potential sponsor who, who, you know, somebody who, who, you know, somebody who, he has a, he has a showdown with his rising Japanese star Kotoendo and finds himself in, in, in, in desperate need of, money in order to go and get this rematch and make himself the champion that he wants to be. Okay, fine. Those are the sort of essential narrative elements of the plot is him chasing this desire

to become this international ping pong star. However, that plot, which is the sort of, you know, the driving story, is just surrounded by all these curlicues of other sort of plot diversions, other stuff going like a kind of blizzard of stuff going on. One of the things that the movie does is it creates this kind of atmosphere in which there's just stuff happening all the time. And the interesting thing about that is, is that it means that very much in the, remember, you saw Uncut Gems, right? Yes, I saw that in the afternoon and the Lighthouse film in the morning. Wow, that must have been quite the day. Well, you remember that sort of sense of just stuff, stuff, stuff,

barreling along that you get in Uncut Gems? There is one scene in this, for example, in which Timothy Chalamay's character, in desperate need of a wash, manages to get himself into a $3 hotel, he's told not to use the shower, he gets into the bath, the bath then falls through the ceiling onto the room below, in which Abel Ferrara, he of the bad lieutenant, let's not repeat that story, story, is there with his dog who gets injured and then needs to be taken to the hospital, but ends up in the possession of somebody else, basically as a kind of kidnap, ransom thing, that becomes the beginning of one of the story's shaggiest dog story elements.

And that's really just the beginning of it. Apparently, the film costs something like $70 million. And they said that makes it A24's most expensive film outstripping even Civil War, which you and I both like very much. It's shot by Daris Conjee. I think it's 35 mil. The design does a great job of recreating the kind of period settings. It's 1950s New York period setting.

I don't know whether I even mentioned that, but it is. And then you have this score by Daniel Lepatin, who's at 1 Otrick's Point Never, who's worked with the SAFTI's before on projects like Uncut Gems. And the music is really interesting because you picked up that cue there because the music is interspersed with anachronistic needle drops, like the film begins and ends with Tears for Fears. So it begins with change. You know, that is Tears for Fears, isn't it?

Yes. Yeah, fine. And then it ends with everybody wants to rule the world. And so there's this strange mixture of kind of the astute and acronistic. I mean, I read a piece about the music in which they were talking about the fact that it goes 50s setting. So in the 50s, Electronica is kind of in its infancy. I mean, 56 is B.B. and Louis Barron's electronic. score for Forbidden Planet, which is the first fully electronic score for a feature film.

And obviously, Daniel Lapatin's music is electro-driven, but what it does here is it gives you that sense of, not of anachronism, but of being the sound that's going on inside the head of the character. There is that kind of the rush. It seems to be like on a constant adrenal rush, And all that is going on in the score. I don't know whether you've seen the poster, but the poster is Timothy Chalamey with his shirt open running through the streets, which is, you know, and that is pretty much what the film feels like, that it's constantly on the movie, it's constantly hyperactive,

it's constantly running between and thinking. And the music is doing a very, very good job of giving you that kind of that sense of a dream rush. And the overall effect is one of kind of spiraling absurdist chaos. I mean, it's a mix of, it's amusing, it's offensive, it's exhausting, and, you know, like the, like the game itself, like the game of ping pong. It is really hard to keep your eye on the ball. And the film, you know, drags you like the main character from Pillard to Post. Timothy Chalemay is very good in it.

I think it's, I mean, it's one of his best performances. Gwyneth Paltrow is terrific. In fact, all the performances is very good. And the way in which it's designed is terrific. I mean, it is exhausting, but it's kind of meant to be. And if you saw Uncut Gems and the Lighthouse in the same day, you'll find it a walk in the park, but it has that kind of that propulsiveness. I mean, it feels very much like, you know, the similar drive that you got in Uncut Gems. And I can see why it is that so many critics are actually, you know, I didn't love it.

I thought it was pretty good. And I thought Timothy Shalloway was very, very good in it. Is he known as Marty Supreme in there? Where does the title? No, this is, this is, it's, no, no, essentially. But Marty Supreme, you see written on the, on the thing. So that's, it's, it's, it is apparently the ball. Oh, okay.

Oh, right, okay. Because I was wondering, because I'd never heard of him. So, um, I was in, I was intrigued. So the Supreme is the ball or the Marty Supreme is the ball. Marty Supreme is the ball. Yeah. So it's named after a ball. The ball is, is called the Marty Supreme.

Right. Okay, well, I'm not sure that works really for me. So you're now going to get bothered about the fact that it's like, you know, because you have this whole thing about films that are named after fictional things. But he's a real person. No, no, but it's not a biopic. That's the point. He's Mouser in the film, which is not the name of the guy who's in real life.

That's why it's very specific saying it is an original work that is inspired by something by a true story All right, okay Marty Supreme out on the 26th Time for a couple of quick What's Ones first Here's Jasmine I am Jasmine

And I am here to promote Emporium Pro Wrestling Our next show is on the evening of the 19th of December At the Genesis Cinema in Myel End So if you don't want to be home alone On a Friday night If you want to terminate your boredom

Come on down and see the spectacle That is professional wrestling Last time we had a Kaiju battle between a space cockroach and a kinky lizard a man swung around like Conan the barbarian and from the jaws of defeat we even jumped the shark

so come and see a show that is only slightly less confusing than the ending of Tenet right okay that's Jasmine promoting Emporium pro wrestling slightly too noisy in the background echoing acoustic is never

that helpful but exciting. She's obviously excited about the product. Yes, exactly. Thank you. And now here's Simon Spiegel in Zurich. Since spoilers have often been discussed in this show and since the holidays are coming,

I thought it might be a good idea to advertise my latest book, The Fear of Knowing, the first edited volume on spoilers. Most people seem to be unaware that it has not always been like this. that spoilers, as we know them today, are an invention of the 21st century. The contributors to the fear of knowing come from a wide range of areas. And their conclusions are, spoiler alert, not always what you might expect. The fear of knowing is available either as an over-priced print edition or it can be downloaded for free as open access.

Okay, all right, well, so we've got a book plug, but that's very good. So it's a book about spoilers. From Simon Spiegel, thank you very much indeed. And if you have an appropriate book that's worth a plug, I've done it, Mark's done it, and now Simon's done it. Yeah, and we're going to carry on doing it. Oh, yeah, yeah.

Surround Sound. The stories of film music available in all good stores now and a fabulous stocking filler or an under the tree present. Yeah. Maybe double it up with Black Tag. Still a hardback, paperback, not out until second half for next year. So what a lovely thing that is. I'm just following Simon Spiegel's example in Zurich.

If you have a Wattson, let us know, just send us a voice note, correspondence at kerminameo.com. Now everything stops, everybody puts down their knitting. If they've taken their clothes off at the naturist cinema, they put them back on again because it's, and if you're going for a natureist screening of Avatar Fire and Ash, you're going to be naked for a very, very long time. Anyway, it's Avatar time. Yes. So the Avatar project to which James Cameron has now singly devoted his attention for a very, very long time, Lumber's on. Remember James Cameron, I used to be a huge fan of James Cameron, Terminator, aliens. And then Avatar kind of came along and he said, okay, this is what I'm going to do. I'm going to make Avatar movies. So I didn't like the first Avatar. I positively disliked. liked the second avatar.

By the time we got to this one, the third one, Fire and Ash, I keep having to remember, because way of water, Fire and Ash, not memorable titles. I really, I have to say from the beginning, pretty much past caring, particularly since this clocks in at, is it 197, 16, 26, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6,000,

it's like, it's very, yeah, it's 197 minutes long. So what there is of a plot has Sam Worthington and Zoe Saldaneu's tree-hugging, watery Navi, getting locked in a conflict with a rival Pandora tribe, who were led by Una Chaplin's Varang, who they live in a volcano or near a volcano. They're firing ashy, as opposed to. Navajo were watery, and they've teamed up with the evil imperialist, colonialist, human invaders who were there to rape and pillage the planet and steal the stuff from it.

I think we have a clip. Should we have a listen? Excellent. I'm looking forward to this. Okay. This is the only pure thing in this world. The fire came to. From the mountain, bent our forest.

My people cried for help. But Ava did not come. This world goes much deeper than you imagine. So, Russell up the enthusiasm, ma'am. All right. So in the past, you know, it's, you know, it's wet smurf a hunt. You call it what you want. Fern Gulley in space, wet smurfahont is bored of the rings.

Anyway, whatever you call it, for all the innovation that is happening in each of the new movies, there's no getting beyond the fact that we have seen all of this before. And we're now going to have to see it again at bum-numbing and bladder-busting length. Firstly, just when you think that everyone has finally abandoned 3D, here we are again balancing those ridiculous glasses on our noses, or in my case, balancing those ridiculous glasses on my ridiculous glasses. And remembering why it is that the 3D craze exactly as I had predicted came and went and continues now only in the mind and world of James Cameron

and in movies that need to be theatrically released in international territories which demand that they will only take the movies in 3D versions, okay? It's a long time since I put the 3D glasses on. I can't remember the last time I did it, and I put them on. I thought, oh yeah, I remember why I hate this. I just remember, well, yeah, fine, I have to sit with your head like that. So fine, so there's that for three and a quarter hours or wherever long it is. So for the first hour and a half, nothing of any consequence happens at all, except there is some sort of, you know, hobbly, nobly, bongy, bongy, bongy, bingy, bongy stuff, which attempts to establish these kind of interneceney rivalries between characters that I've forgotten about from the first film, couldn't remember in the second film, struggled to identify here in the film.

And at one point, I was trying to figure out who's playing what, you know, which one is, is, because one of the things is, and Kate Winsler. So, and Kate Winsler is in it. And, you know, she's only a brief, but she is, and Kate Winsler is in it. And Kate Winsler, who can hold her breath underwater for whatever it was, she said, like, seven minutes. And you're trying to map them onto, you know, Sigourney Weaver and all that stuff. And trying to do it by remembering people's names, but I can't remember anyone's names. I can't remember any character's names at all, okay? What I do remember is, oh, yeah, it's just, it's all the bits from other, so, you know, you get the Star Wars dogfire.

although then it's not it's not x-wings it's flying beasties and incidentally we're now so many hours into they still haven't figured out how to do the heft and how to do the weight and how to do the gravity thing the people riding around on the back of the flying beasties it's still just look just saw out the the heft thing why aren't they falling off I'm sorry it does it just doesn't make any physical sense the way that this that it doesn't work okay you get the cosmic merging thing with the next world because there's the whole thing about that kind of like oceanic hot tub time machine with the big bluey thing in it and you connect your hairpiece to it and it's somehow then you're in the land of the elders where characters who are dead

aren't dead but they're just living in the next world or something you get the characters who were humans who got killed and then now's come back I mean the main one who's now come back as a giant smurf who looks like an angry cat in military fatigues. And I'm thinking, was he more interesting when he was human than now that he's a giant smurf? I mean, there are times when you look at the screen and you think this is like some nightmare furries convention. This is just, this is a whole bunch of people cosplay being animals and about to get French. There's whales. Well, hang on a second, hang on. Get French. So are you saying this is an Avatar film with erotica?

Well, well, there isn't, yes. I suppose there is what in the world of Avatar stands for an erotic frisson, I suppose. But as I said, the only thing I could think of was just furries. And we've sort of been there before. There's also, there's whales. There's a lot more whales. There's a lot more whales. Wales with an H? Wales with an H. Yes, not whale. They don't go to Wales.

There's a lot more whales and whales talking to people through the miracle of simultaneous Navi translation. The whale goes, he goes, he said that the big nibol with the diddly bong, we do not kill people, we are a peaceful nation.

Then he goes, he said, but in this case, yeah, you know, past the ammunition. You also get a bunch of of sub-brave-heart, face painting and fist-waving, alongside Nods to Spartacus and Gladiator, and once again, more than anything, Fern Gully. And then in the, so the first hour and a half, nothing, then some stuff.

And then in the staggeringly overdue third act, by which point most movies would have finished, they would have done the trailers, they would have done the adverts, they would have done the whole movie, and it would have finished. And by the time that that happens, by the time the people in the, screen next to you are coming out of, you know, the housemaid, you're just about to embark on the third act, which is the thing that the whole thing has been building up to, which is yet another big battle between, on the one hand, alien Terminator-style metal technology and on the other hand, wibbly, wibbly, wibbly, space squiddy things, you know, that are created by CGI.

I. There's also, at one point, there's a bit when there's some characters of having a fight on floaty bits of land with fiery stuff underneath. And I thought, that's the end of Revenge of the Sith, isn't it? You know, I mean, you kind of think I'm surprised one of them doesn't end up with a bucket on their head. Then you have the film's most irritating character, who I think is called Spider. I think that's what they're called, but I couldn't keep track of anyone's names at all. And Spider is this. kind of dreadlocked young trustafarian who seems to be channeling mowgli from the jungle book but who should rightly be up a tree on earth stopping somebody building a bypass and his character is largely defined by doing something physical and then saying the word now i'm going to i'm going to i'm going to say this because this is important okay the film is a 12a certificate okay and so i think are we we're 12 a certificate language here on the on the show yeah is that a No, we're a U certificate, I think. Okay, so give me a word to use instead of the word that begins sh and ends to.

Spit. Spit. Okay, fine. Which is the word Eric Idle uses in, always look on the bright side of life. Life's a piece of spit. Life's a piece of spit. Okay, fine. So, the character, the Trostafarian Mogulie character, basically does something and then says spit.

and there is a lot of spit in fire and ash. I asked a friend from the BBFC, because they did show it at the BFI on Monday after I'd seen fire and ash. Fire and ash, ash and fire. Fire and ash. Is that what it's called? Jurassic World.

Anyway, Fire and ash. I said, what's the rule on 12A and spit? He said, although there isn't a rule. I said, what, seriously, you can just, you can say as many spits as you want in a 12A. He said, yeah. I said, well, they have really taken that completely literally, because there are, you know, apparently no limits to how many times

you can spit, and therefore this script takes full advantage of it. There is also a sequence in it in which James Cameron appears to have written the words, please, no, don't, and then fallen asleep on the shift, alt, repeat, paste, cut, paste, cut, repeat, repeat, repeat thing. There must be entire pages of the script of Avatar, Fire and Ash, that literally go, please no, please, no, don't spit, spit, spit, spit, please no, spit, spit, don't, please spit, spit, spit. And weirdly enough, please no, don't spit is all I could think of while I was watching this thing. It's just, just really, this is where we are after all this time. I just, I kept thinking, don't look at your watch, don't look at your watch, because if you look at your watch, it won't

have been going for as long as you think it has, and there will be much more of it than you have to do. Now, one of the arguments for all of this is, look, it doesn't matter because people love the world, right? They just love the world. I mean, I remember David Lynch once said, I interviewed David Lynch about fire war with me. And he said that one of the reasons he did fire war with me is he just wanted to be back in the world of Twin Peaks. So it doesn't really matter what happens there. It's just, I want to be in that world. Now, I understand that. I think that what's happened here is that all of James Cameron thing is he's just fallen in love with the world, okay? which is essentially, you know, a Roger Dean album cover come to life

and he just wants to spend time in the world and therefore he's just kind of every now and then remembering that there needs to be a story rather than just the, you know, the stuff going on. But, okay, fine, I'm thrilled that he's pleased with it. And if you were playing it as a video game, maybe you could just play it for us. And incidentally, the visuals,

for all the stuff that people talk about, because they're amazing technical achievement, no. Some of it looks like spit. Some of it looks like video game visuals in which they still haven't figured out how to do heft. And how is this? Because you're doing motion, you're doing all this stuff, everything you're throwing at it. And yet you still haven't figured out how to make it look like that big thin smurf is actually standing on that big flying dinosaur that's come out of another movie and make me think that the physics of it make any sense. And then when you get into that big final act, it's this classic thing about it is one of those multi-stranded storylines

that, back in, whenever it is, is it 1903? There's a very, very famous film from early cinema called The Great Train Robbery, in which Edwin S. Porter effectively invented parallel editing. We didn't invent it, but he kind of, you know, he pioneered parallel editing, which is two different strands going on at the same time. I guarantee you, if you got the makers of that film and showed them, Avatar, Fire and Ash, they would go back in time

and undo the invention of parallel editing and say from now on, all films are just going to be a train arriving in a French station in one shot, and that's all that's going to happen. Because it's just like, it's just a bunch of placeholders. You know, the bit from Revenge of the Sith is happening,

and then the bit with the watery thing is happening, And then the bit with the annoying trust, and they're all just going, and I'm just, I'm, I mean, look, back when Larry Vey do, Ligar de, see a tat, whatever the thing is, go back then, movies were shorter, pithier, and a lot more fun. I have no doubt that this will make a bunch of money. And as you said, the Golden Globe thing was they've already, they already nominated it for popular cinema achievement or whatever it's called before, as far as I can tell, anyone had actually seen it.

it's, I, I just want it to stop forever. I just want to, how, how is it possible to have come this far? And for the storytelling to still be this bad. And also, why do people keep telling me that the world looks brilliant? No, it doesn't. it looks a bit spit why was it a French train because that's the

arrival of the train at the city they were in France aren't they all right you weren't implying that it was like a train of lust like a sex scene no no no no I mean French actually as in as of France rather than as of French matters here's the plus point though

cinemas will stay open because of this film and there it is and there it is but that's true isn't it no no and there it is it is it is But I refer back to a point that I made in a book that I wrote many years ago called The Good, the Bad, the Multiplex, which is, if these things are going to make money anyway, could you not make them good?

That is the end of take one. This has been a Sony Music, entertainment production. I'm looking forward to it when I get to see it, probably when I'm ill, and I'm watching it on my laptop. On your phone. Yeah, and it's more enjoyable than, you know, vomiting in my... Yeah. It's only. Avatar Fire and Ash is out this week, not 26. It's the one that's out this week.

Okay. Sony Music Entertainment Production. This week's team, Jen, Eric, Josh, Heather and Dom, the redactor with Simon Paul. And if you're not following the pod already, you really should be. And it's slightly embarrassing. Mark, what is your film of the week, Avatar Fire and Ash? Marty Supreme. We thought we get you your Christmas stuff slightly earlier. It's nice, a bit of a treat, really. so every single shop that you've ever paid anything any money to sent you an email saying this is our Christmas schedule so this is our equivalent of this is our Christmas schedule okay Saturday the 20th Kate Winslet special yes entitled Good Kate Winslet Brackets Lass

looks back on her feet of acting that's good that's good tears isn't it read it again even though good Kate Winslet Lass looks back on her feats of acting. That's amazing. It's like the best bit of the show. That is the best bit of the show. Even though it's mainly about her directing, but that didn't actually work

if we tried to shoehorn that. Then Monday the 22nd, we have the best and worst films of 2025, along with the company Take 2s, plus you'll get a Take Ultra on the 23rd, so why not head over to Patreon to join in all the good stuff? So we'll see you on the other side. but don't forget the Kate Winslet special

entitled Good Kate Winslet Last Looks Out Looks back on her feats of acting By the time it goes out I'll be able to say it straightforwardly Thank you very much indeed It's not even the best Jared in the film Thank you very much indeed for listening

I hope I haven't passed on any germs And do we say happy Christmas now? Happy Christmas? Oh yeah