Kermode & Mayo’s Take - Benedict Cumberbatch, Eric, The Beast & Sting

Episode Date: May 30, 2024

This week, Take fave Benedict Cumberbatch tells Simon all about his psychological miniseries ‘Eric’, which sees him play troubled puppeteer Vincent, who clings to his missing son’s drawings of a blue monster puppet named Eric, convinced that if he can get Eric on TV then his son will come home.   Mark also gives his take on the show, as well as reviewing ‘Sting’, which sees a 12-year-old's pet spider rapidly transform into a giant flesh-eating monster, forcing the young girl to fight for her family’s survival.   This week’s big review is ‘The Beast’, a science fiction romantic drama loosely based on Henry James’ novella ‘The Beast in the Jungle’, which imagines a near future in which artificial intelligence is in control of everyone’s lives and human emotions are perceived as a threat. Lea Seydoux and ‘Gorgeous George’ Mackay star.   Timecodes (relevant only for the Vanguard - who are also ad-free!):  08:14 – Sting Review  12:03– Box Office Top Ten  24:44 – Benedict Cumberbatch Interview  39:15 – Eric Review  45:42 – What's On June  49:06 – The Beast Review    You can contact the show by emailing [e-mail] or you can find us on social media, @KermodeandMayo   EXCLUSIVE NordVPN Deal ➼ https://nordvpn.com/take Try it risk-free now with a 30-day money-back guarantee!  A Sony Music Entertainment production.     Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts and follow us @sonypodcasts    To advertise on this show contact: [e-mail]    Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Also, increasingly, it's would you like some extra pie? No, I'm good. Yeah, no, I'm good. Yeah, I didn't ask whether you were good or not. I just asked whether you'd like some extra pie. So therefore, Mark, are you ready? Then you say I'm good. Are you ready, Mark? I'm good. Although I don't mean that, do I? Because that's the really annoying thing, isn't it? When you say I'm good, you don't mean, I mean, actually people start picking up on it, you know, I'm good. I didn't ask whether you were good. I asked if you were ready. Where did it start?

It's probably one of those American things. Who is philosophically good? I mean, you mean just abstractly good. Anyway, this is good. Yeah. We normally get to this point by the end of the second podcast. I think it's a little bit heavy to start with. So I just want to say that today's podcast is brought to you by myself, Simon Mayer, BA Honours, Warwick University, History and Politics 2-1. Mark, can you please give me your academic qualifications? Mark Kermode, Manchester University BA on, Manchester University PhD, and then I got a couple of honorary doctorates. In?

Well, technically, I suppose in English literature, I mean, it's in horror fiction, but I suppose the subject... Yeah, no, my PhD is in horror fiction. I'm a doctor of horror. Right, okay. Mickey Mouse degrees is my subject here because... Oi! Oi! Rishi Sunak to cut Mickey Mouse degrees to boost apprenticeships.

I've got nothing against boosting apprenticeships. But universities are being accused of ripping people off by offering Mickey Mouse degrees. I embody a Mickey Mouse degree, you are a doctor and professor of Mickey Mouse degrees, these are all subjects which in theory, horror fiction, okay, we all see how that has benefited the nation. It is. It has been, it's just added to the general gaiety. It's added to the general gaiety and joie de vivre as people spring about their everyday lives going, I told you this, there was a

piece in the Manchester Evening News, because I actually got my PhD just before the Good Lady Professor Herr indoors and I got married, because I'd been doing it for a while. And I literally, the ceremony to get it was like a week before we got married. And Andy Spinoza, who was then writing for the Manchester Evening News, who I knew from City Life, he said, I want to write a piece about the fact that you're getting this degree in horror fiction, this Mickey Mouse degree in horror, not degree, a doctorate in horror fiction. And I said, oh yeah, okay, fine. I told him all about it. And then he said, oh, you're going anywhere nice for your honeymoon. I said, well, funnily enough, one of the places that the good lady

has agreed that we can go to is Georgetown, which is where the exorcist is set. He said, well, funnily enough, one of the places that the good lady has agreed that we can go to is Georgetown, which is where the Exorcist is set. He said, you're going to Georgetown for your honeymoon. I said, well, a part of it. I mean, not for all of it, just for part of it. And the Manchester Evening News ran a piece that Espinosa wrote under the headline, Dr. Horror Plans Honeymoon in Hell. So, what are you going to be reviewing later? We have an absolutely packed show.

We have got a review of Sting, which is a killer spiders from space movie. We've got The Beast, which is the new George Mackay, Leia Sadu, filmed by Bertrand Bonello. And the new TV series, Eric, with our special guest Benedict Cumberbatch. You'll be hearing my conversation with him a little bit later on. Also, Week can watch this We Cannot Lest TV Movie of the Week premium and bonus features for subscribers. One Frame Back movies and TV with puppets to coincide with Eric and Benedict. And Questions Shmestians is in take two. You can access all these delights via Apple podcasts or head to extra takes.com for non-fruit

related devices. Also, you get ad-free episodes of Ben and Nimone Shrink the Box, talking about Larry, David, Fraser Kane and Michael Scott from the US office are already there. If you are already a Vanguard Easter, this will not be at the same time because of the delay between me and Mark, but as always, we salute you. There you go. Thank you, Corporal Jones. Last week, we started with an email from Martin Rosen, which was so long, we split it into part one and part two. You remember last week he was talking about the origins of the properties theft joke, which he claims he invented in 1982

and he sided intellectual property law and so on. Anyway, he says, I recently watched Napoleon, this is part two, I watched Napoleon on a transatlantic flight. If you remember, there's a bit where a front page of a newspaper turns up, which even to the untrained eye, it was clearly ludicrous. Martin Rosen says, not only did the non-existent paper, the London Times, carry news on its front page, but the first political cartoon to be published in a British daily newspaper was in 1900. It was Francis Carruthers Gould in the Westminster Gazette, not on the Times front page in 1803. It was like suddenly seeing a motorbike overtake

Josephine's coach. Anyway, I bumped into Simon at our mutual literary agent's Christmas party and I said there was something I wanted to write in about and I couldn't remember what it was and now I've remembered. It was in response to several mentions of Auckland in New Zealand in successive episodes last autumn. About 20 years ago, the University of Kent Cartoon Archives online resource, the Cartoon Hub, containing thousands of cartoons from their collection was launched at New Zealand House in Haymarket. of cartoons from their collection was launched at New Zealand House in Haymarket, a site of a hotel where, according to a blue plaque on the High Commission, Ho Chi Minh worked as a chef in 1913. There was an academic conference followed by a reception hosted by the High Commissioner to whom I was introduced. He said the paper I'd given earlier on had stirred things up a bit, which was the purpose of the trip. And I replied, recognizing that

I'd only have one chance of saying this, that I understood the Lord of the Rings films had provided a great boost for his nation's economy. He agreed and listed all the different sectors, tourism, catering, and celery services, which had benefited from Peter Jackson's bum-numbing behemoths being filmed there. So I then said, I understand that you're so grateful you've even named one of your cities Orkland, at which point he turned on his heel and left, still Carpe Deum, as they used to say in ancient Rome. Pretty good, huh?

That's a very good joke. Anyway, Martin, thank you. Robbie in Glasgow has been in touch. Dear Campbell, Well and Peckham, in the spirit of accurate reporting during the general election, I just wanted to make a small correction on a political scene. Because when we recorded this time last week, the election hadn't been called, had it? I can't remember anyway. Simon mentioned that Woody Allen had a character in one of his films by the name of Margaret Beckett, the same name as the then acting leader of the Labour Party. Simon seems to have misremembered his shadow cabinet figures, as in Husbands and Wives, Woody Allen's character wistfully recalls his passionate affair with Harriet Harmon, though I presume not the future Minister for

Women and long-standing member of Camberwell and Peckham. Now, Robbie and Glasgow, thank you. So first of all, thank you very much for the email. Second point, it is quite likely that I forget this stuff. However, you're almost certainly not right because John Smith died in 1994, and Husbands and Wives was 1992. So John Smith was the leader of the Labour Party. So if Harriet Harmon is in Husbands and Wives, there is a running theme of prominent Labour women running through Woody Allen's movies. So I'm 100% certain. I may have been wrong, but Bullets Over Broadway was 1994. I might have interviewed him for that, but he's not in it, is he? I don't think. So it might have

been Mafria. Will Barron You interviewed John Cusack for that film. Oh no, you didn't. No, I beg your pardon. You're absolutely right. You did interview Woody Allen for that film. Oh no you didn't, no I beg your pardon, you're absolutely right, you did interview Woody Allen for that film. Wow. Also, Mighty Aphrodite was 1995, so it'll be one of those films. But if Harriet Harmon is referred to in Husbands and Wives, I'm convinced it was Margaret Beckett because she was the leader of the Labour Party for a brief period after John Smith died. So it has to be between 1994 and 1995 and I've got to go back and watch those to try and get some kind of sense out of it all.

Anyway, all of which has taken far too long and we need to talk about a film that is out. Okay, so let's talk about Sting, which is, well, the best way of describing it, it's a goofy arachnid creature feature about an apartment block besieged by a killer spider. It's an Australian production but it's set in New York. So a meteor skims the sky, a particle falls off it, goes through the window of an apartment and it's an alien-like egg that opens up, very much like aliens, spawns a spider who is promptly trapped by 12-year-old Charlotte Schwebsie, who is played by none other than Elila Brown,

whose name we know how to pronounce thanks to your interview last week with George Miller. That's right. Because you said to him, is it Elila? And he said, no, no, it's Elila. So she lives with her mom and partner, who's an odd job man by day, graphic artist by night. Together they've created this cartoon thing, Fangirl. Anyway, so she names the pet spider Sting, she feeds it bugs which it eats voraciously, but very soon it is out of the jar and feasting on the local wildlife, including the neighbor's

pet parrot. Here's a clip. Yeah, hello? Yo! You the one that called me about a dead parrot? That's one seriously f***ed up bird. Looks like it tried to have sex with a blender. Whatever did this was small. Attack from the inside. And this poor b**** tried to squeeze through the bars.

Could it be rats? Nope. Hell no. Rats don't melt their food before they eat it. So, gives you a flavor of the tone written and directed by K. Roach Turner who cites Stephen King's It and The Hobbit as an influence goes on about you know the section in Mirkwood when he's fighting spiders with a sword that's called Sting. So here the dark forest is all the ventilation shafts that go around the apartment block that Charlotte crawls through.

So the tunnels are also very alien and some reviews have called it, you know, alien with spiders in an apartment. It's also got a retro throwback feel. I mean, at times there are bits in it that are actually not a million miles away from Little Shop of Horrors because it has got that sort of comic undercurrent. There's also a nice retro jukebox thing going on because the film is bookended by the pleasure seekers, What A Way To Die, which I think is from 65, and then Johnny Mercer's Accentuate The Positive, which is a 1940s tune. And then obviously there's arachnophobia and tremors and them in the background.

What I liked about it is that the effects which are, is it wheat or wetter? I can never remember how you pronounce that. But they're a mix of old-school puppetry and modern CG, but they generally look kind of quite old-fashioned, which is nice. It's goofy fun, it's not particularly scary unless you're particularly scared of spiders, which I'm not. I mean, I'm the person who, you know, in our house, if the good lady Professor Her indoors sees a spider in the bathtub, I'm the person that has to go around and deal with it because spiders don't bother me in the slightest bit. But it's good, goofy, old, creature feature, retro, throwback fun and it's made quite nicely. It's the kind of thing which if you saw it late night at

the Scala it would go down well with the crowd. So you know, not earth-changing but I think really good fun and I enjoyed it. It's called Sting, it's in cinemas. It sounds as though it delivers exactly what it intended to do, so in that respect it's a five out of five. It does exactly what it says on the tin. Okay, still to come, some fabulous reviews from Mark. Remind me? We've got The Beast, which is the new Bertram Bonello, and of course Eric, which is the new Netflix series starring our very special guest.

Benedict Cumberbatch, who is on the way shortly. What do we have here? Oh it's an advertisement from Better Help Therapy. That's because Kermode Meo's take where I sometimes step into Mark's patent leather wingtip shoes is brought to you by Better Help. You, I'm no stranger to stress and anxiety and for me sometimes it can be overwhelming. And in those moments I can't tell you how important it is to have someone to talk to, someone you can share with, you know. Therapy is such a safe space in terms of getting things off your chest and then to figure out how to work through whatever's weighing you down. So if you're thinking of starting therapy, give BetterHelp a try. It's designed to be

convenient, flexible, it works with your schedule so you can get access to BetterHelp when you need it most. Just fill out a brief questionnaire to get matched with a registered therapist and switch therapists at any time for no additional charge. There's over a thousand therapists in the UK already. Our listeners get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com slash curmode. That's better. H E L P dot com slash curmode. When slayed creatures return to the land of the living, it's up to a band of unlikely heroes to re-slay them. Welcome to the re-slayers take from the fantasy world of critical role. Join Jasmine Bular, Jasmine Chung, Jasper Cartwright, and Caroline Lux alongside us. Game masters, Nick and George Primavera, in a tabletop

role-playing audio adventure using Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition. Adventure awaits in the ReSlayers' Take. New episodes drop weekly on Mondays wherever you stream your podcasts. So here we go with the box office top 10 brought to you as ever by our very good friends at Comscore Movies who've done all the hard work for us. Thank you very much Comscore Movies. Number 67, In Flames. Not a Slade movie, but Mark. It was Pakistan's entry for the best foreign language, the best international feature as they now call it. And it's very much like Babak Anveri's Under the Shadow. It's a horror movie on the front of it. But actually what it really is, is a film about patriarchy and

oppression which is just telling its story through the use of supernatural motifs. And I thought it was very powerful. Number 43 is Horde. Which is a great British movie that I mean I know it's a hard view and I can't, obviously it's not packing out the multiplexes but it is really really well worth seeing. It's got great performances, it's dark, it's difficult but I think it's also got kind of a really transcendent edge to it. I think it's something really special. I think it's also got kind of a really transcendent edge to it. I think it's something really special. I mean, it's not an easy film, but it's not meant to be.

Number 14 here, number 11 in the States is Tarot. Got an email here from Thomas Caffrey who says, I recently had the distinct pleasure of watching the latest horror film Tarot in a packed cinema in small town Ireland. Following a series of decent to very enjoyable horrors this year such as Immaculate, Late Night with the Devil and Ex-Humor, I was looking forward to seeing this on the big screen. We were a few minutes late on account of traffic so we hurriedly collected our tickets, settled into our seats and caught the last few moments of a Mad Max trailer before the lights dimmed and the film began. Any excitement for the film dissipated with the sudden arrival of a bunch of loud and rowdy teenagers, spilling popcorn, laughing, poking fun at the film,

all the usual annoyances. By the end of the film, I was thankful for the distraction they provided. Absolutely moronic film and felt like a horror made by filmmakers, indifferent or indeed hostile to the genre. Cliched characters, off-screen deaths, and apparently the lighting crew forgot to show up too. Poor stuff. But at least Owen Ferreri had a good time with her role. Please avoid Mark. Owen Ferreri, I just had to check the pronunciation because she's Irish of Breton parents. So there's two accents working in her surname, which is rare for someone from Ireland, so I was just checking. But I think we got that right.

Number ten here, number nine in the States is Back to Black. Still there. Toby Eastman Solid pop biopic. It's done so much better than anyone expected, so good for it. Jason Vale Nine here, not charted in America, is Twilight of the Warriors walled in. Toby Eastman Okay, so haven't seen this Chinese film based on the novel City of Darkness. If anyone has seen it, write in and let me know. It wasn't shown to me, so I haven't seen it. Correspondence at kerbenamow.com, I think the same applies to Turbo at number eight.

Again, this is Malay language Indian action comedy. Again, if you've seen that, let me know. Just correcting myself, Twilight of the Warriors is a 2024 Hong Kong neo-noir martial arts crime action film, which covers a huge amount of bases. Mason- Number seven here, number eight in the States is Challengers. Jason- Which I really liked and everyone I know who's seen it seems to have really, really enjoyed it. And Josh O'Connor is fantastic in it, but don't forget that Josh O'Connor is also fantastic in La Cumera, which is playing in your local art house cinemas, and if you have a chance to see it on the big screen, do. Six here, six in America is The Strangers, Chapter One.

We have Chapter Two and Chapter Three coming. They decided that it wasn't a good idea to show them to the press. Five here, five in the States is The Fall Guy. Which, you know, we keep being told is underperformed hugely because the IP wasn't as recognisable as anybody thought it was meant to be. I'm not sure that that's the issue. I mean I thought it was funny. I thought it, I enjoyed it and I liked the chemistry between the two leads, but I do know people who've seen it and have just been completely left cold by it, which just surprises

me because I thought it was really perfect popcorn fun. Number four is Kingdom of the Planet of the Apes. Very good second hour, slow first hour. However, Child 2 said to me, you're completely wrong, which is not the first time Child 2 has said that, went to see it and really liked the first hour, really liked the fact that for the first hour it's just world building. So, you know, hey, what do I know? Number three here, also three in the States, is If. So, an email from Martin in Manchester. Dear If and Ify, long-term listener, but first-time emailer, after listening to your review of the new John Krasinski film, I felt compelled to write to you about my childhood experience of imaginary

friendship. This is a great, this is a really great email, which this film, whether you love it or are indifferent to it, has certainly stimulated. We wouldn't have got here, I think, without John Krasinski. I was, says Martin, and still am, an only child. And so when at the age of two, I started telling my parents about a new imaginary friend who went by the name of Glockweed, they weren't too worried worried as it's a very common thing for kids to have, especially children without siblings. However, when Glockweed's brother, Boggan, also began to appear in my daily reports, followed quickly by his mum and dad, Bula and Tad,

and finally baby Small and Desi the dog, They had cause to raise an eyebrow or two. We now had an entire imaginary family of six staying with us in our very real house in Belfast. My parents have regaled me, and my very understanding fiancee Rachel, with various tales of these characters over the years. Like the time my mom asked me to eat some lunch, she placed before me on the high chair and I refused to eat it. So in desperation

she said, well, would Boggan like some then? On another occasion, my aunt Vivian, also a proud member of this parish, was babysitting me and jokingly asked where my invisible friends were tonight. I slowly pointed to a space just beside her and said, they're there. I don't know whether he did it in that voice. Finally one morning after they had inquired about what the gang had been up to recently, I told my parents in a cheery voice, Oh, baby small is dead. Sadly, I myself have no memories of my fictional family, but thanks to my folks, tales of their adventures live on and I've kept Glockweed's name alive by using it as the moniker I released my music under. Unsurprisingly,

no one else has claimed it. Tickety-tongued down with the Nazis and up with imaginary friends, their families and indeed their dogs." I would love to know if any of our church have had not just imaginary friends, but is Martin alone in having like an entire family staying with him? That's extraordinary, don't you think? Yeah, it is extraordinary. I also think what's extraordinary is what happened to that family and the way in which he recounts that story. And when you did the, you know, where are they?

They're just there. You did it in the same voice that you do, I'm behind your bins. So I wonder whether somehow that imaginary family is somehow connected with the imaginary family that you have in your head that lives behind your bins. That's also true. I wonder if Martin is right that it's also very common, it would make sense I suppose for single children without any siblings to have imaginary members of the family. It didn't come up with John Krasinski, but if that's true, and if you also had a family like Glockweed and what were they all called?

Boggan, Bula, Tad, Baby Small and Desi the Dog. Anyway, if anyone has stories like that,ence at koemanmo.com. Number two here, number one in the States is Furiosa. Did you want to say anything on if? I didn't even offer you the opportunity there to just chip in on the story. No, no. I mean, honestly I think it's one of those cases in which the correspondence is more interesting than the film. I like the idea of the film, but I think the film lacks magic. I think the film is slightly disappointing, but it has provoked a very interesting conversation about imaginary friends. So for that, I'll forgive it everything. Number one in the States, number two here is Furiosa, a Mad Max saga. Matthew says, I really enjoyed George Miller's latest, especially Chris Hemsworth getting to stretch

his acting legs in a way we've not seen at all from him. But one thing really bugged me, and that's the playing of scenes from Fury Road at the end. I think it's quite surprising, but anyway, all it did, says Matthew, is just show off how grungy and great Fury Road looked and served only to highlight how digital and clean this looked. I could call out so many scenes using digital doubles, excessive green screen, CG bullets, composite shots that stood out a mile. One that really stood out was Furiosa and Mother simply drawing, simply slowly riding a bike toward a camera through a rock formation. It just looked so odd like the bike wasn't even moving. So much of this movie

looked dead behind the eyes compared to the frenetic in your face action of Fury Road. I was struggling to pinpoint why exactly, so I looked it up and apparently it's a different cinematographer. The one who did all the Mad Max movies retired and couldn't do this one too, which is why I imagine it looks in quotes worse or at least part of the reason. Also, side note, how exactly do you end up with an American accent after being surrounded by Australians from childhood? Anyway, down with stuff and up with stuff. Matthew on Furiosa, Mad Max saga at number two. I don't think it did look bad. I thought it looked great, actually.

I thought the point that you made when you were talking to George Miller was that the sound does a huge amount of work in it. And actually, we may later on in the show return to the subject of the way in which sound can change what you see. I didn't think it looked bad. I mean, all those criticisms that you have, they all sound like you've been watching very attentively and you've made very specific criticisms of them. I have to confess, those things didn't bother me. And I think they didn't bother me because

I was kind of swept up in it and I liked it. But this does come, you know, we used to have a thing about the hill upon which you will die. It is true that if something about the visual starts to bug you, then the movie won't involve you in its world. And the one thing I would say about Furiosa is it does offer you many moments in which if you are skeptical about it, you, you can go, in the words of Freakin, hang on a minute. And that's a thing that Fury Road doesn't do. But I actually, I mean, I thought the end montage of Fury Road didn't bother me. Did it bother you, Simon? Did it make you feel disappointed in what had gone before? No, no, no, not really, because I thought it was just saying, this is where the story

goes next. And it was a reminder, this is where the story goes next. And it was a reminder about how great Charlie's Throne was. There was one moment very early on when I thought the CG was a little bit clunky and I thought, and then I forgot all about it. So I was completely swept up. So I really enjoyed it. And Matthew says at the beginning, I really enjoyed the film. So there's a lot to enjoy. You're right. He was just annoyed by the way it looked. Anyway, it's not number one because the Garfield movie is a number one.

So, I mean. I don't have anything on that. No, but there's no, exactly. And in a way, none of us do. Somebody said to me, I heard your review of Garfield. You talked for five minutes about the Bill Murray Garfield and you said, and then this one's got Chris Pratt. And I said, well, in a way that's kind of it. I mean, it's not, it's not anything other than some animated stuff and some famous actors doing the voice cast stuff. And the most interesting

thing about the whole Garfield thing is that an earlier incarnation of it was voiced by Bill Murray, who then in an interview said that he did it because he thought it was the other Cohen. He thought it wasn't Joel Cohen, it was Joel Cohen, as opposed to Ethan Cohen and Eton Cohen. That's more interesting than anything in the film, but you know, it's half term. So it's a Garfield movie. It's a, you know, it's a, here we go.

Nobody remembers the Fall Guy. Everyone knows what Garfield is. All right. So maybe Mad Max will be number one next week because half term will be over. Who knows? We'll find out. What would hope so? Stay tuned for next week's episode.

Mark, still to come, what are you doing? What are you doing? What am I doing? I'm reviewing the new Bertrand Bonello film, The Beast, I bet. And also we'll be talking to the star of Eric, who is? Benedict Cumberbatch. He stars in Netflix's Eric. Benedict plays a puppeteer in search of his missing son in 1980s New York.

And we'll hear from to stop this interview. I'll ask you again, how did you get that cut on your head? Your blood type is the same as the blood on this t-shirt. I fell, I fell, okay, I fell. Come on, buddy. Do better. How did you fall? I really do have a lot of work to do. Tomorrow is a very big day. Then talk to me. The fuck, don't you dare.

I insist you stop the interview. Come on. Shut up! Shut up, I'm fine. That's a clip from Eric, and I'm delighted to say I've been joined by its star and its executive producer, Benedict Cumberbatch. Hello, Benedict. Hi, Simon. How are you? Nice to see you. Nice to see you, too.

I don't think you've been on the show since you punched Mark in the arm. It was one of my favorite moments on the show. It does always get brought up. Not by Keira, ever. I mean, you know, I did that and failed to get her attention, but there we go. OK. Well, anyway, it was one of those radio moments that people say, what did happen? Did it actually happen?

Was it pre the day that we filmed those things or was it actually on camera? I don't know, because in radio studios you're never quite sure whether it's been filmed or not. But anyway, it's out there in myth. Well Mark's been very kind to me since, considering I'm physically abused. It was a gentle tap, let's be honest. He said it wasn't that gentle. Anyway, introduce us to Eric. You aren't Eric, you are Vincent, but introduce us to the world which you've created here on this Netflix show. So Vincent is, Vincent Anderson is son of a property magnate and socialite mother, pretty loveless childhood, and he's 10 years into a marriage

and a show that he's created that are both sort of in crisis. The show is needing, well, the corporation behind it need more fashionable entities in it, and he's put his identity into this show. He's both a puppet creator and a show creator and an operator of one of the lead characters, Bug, in this idealized version of a New York gaggle of misfits in Central Park. And it's sort of, I mean, for those who know Sesame Street, it kind of takes over from where that early literacy and numeracy takes, leaves, ends rather.

It's kind of the next iteration of that in but very much the same thing didn't tread on any of Jim Henson God is his trademark very careful to all the designs actually it took a lot of effort but it kind of spurred to avoid yeah copyright exactly but it means it is an all-new cast of puppet characters which maybe there's a spin-off there somewhere Netflix because it was gorgeous to do that part of it gorgeous to tell me why it's because when the show starts there are there are six parts I've seen all of them When we see you as a puppeteer for the first time it's a very joyous Mo I mean the fact that the show might be in crisis we don't know but yeah it

Instantly if you've been brought up on Sesame Street in the muppets you go, okay I understand this yes completely and yet to actually be lying on your back with a headband that has the microphone attached with your arm inside an innate, inanimate object that you're animating and creating that magic in real time to a camera with a reversed image monitor. So you're watching what you're doing rather than the puppet and the interaction with the other puppets.

You're watching the performance as it's being broadcast or recorded. What a gift to be able to learn to do that at the age of 47. I mean it's one of the magic things about my work is I get these moments of skill acquisition I would otherwise not have and it was joyous. It was really good fun, hard, difficult, really skillful stuff that we're trying to... Using some muscles that you hadn't used before. Literally, yeah. Because that's a very unnatural place to be performing.

Literally, yeah. Your shoulder, everyone's shoulders are like, oh crap, you know, you just imagine it's going to be completely kind of lopsided for the rest of your life. But it was, we were definitely taking through our paces by professionals who know exactly what they're doing. Not least, Olly, who operated Eric, the walk-around puppet. Right, so now let's get to, so Eric, the puppet. Explain what happens. So yes, the show's in crisis, he needs a new character and his identity is under

assault because it's got to be cool and hip and to do with a sort of fashionable thing which this show is and it's an innocent thing that exists on its own terms and like I said he's invested so much of his personality in it that he feels already like he's disabledabled by this kind of critique of it. And he takes that argument, that toxicity into his relationship with his kid who's trying to show him a drawing of a new puppet that he's had an idea for. And he's kind of ignoring him because he's lost in his own toxic relationship with his

work colleagues. He's been pretty toxic in ignoring and not seeing his child. He then takes the grievance home. He sort of quizzes the kid to try and elevate a pitch, the monster Eric onto the show, and just is behaving abominably. But it's fueled, as you learn, through Abby's beautifully layered writing, by a very, very damaged and traumatic time as a child,

where he had a mental episode, a mental health issue, and it was just in a very brutal way, treated with zero love and a lot of pharmaceuticals. And he's never really recovered, so that child in him to flare up, act out, is just there, and it damages everyone around him. And then his child goes missing the next morning on his way to school, and the sort of crime thriller drama centers on that. But in the midst of it, you have a man who then completely falls off the precipice of alcoholism, drug abuse

and a psychotic split whereby the ignored creation of his son he feels might be the only way to communicate with him in the beyond or wherever he's got lost into and he starts to try and create this puppet to bring to the show but in the, his marriage implodes, his work implodes, he's also made homeless, and goes on this really, really dark journey. Yeah, descent. Descent, yeah, a dark note of the soul, basically. So the Eric that... Literally in figurative terms.

So we're kind of with you when Eric... And Eric then manifests, right? So he becomes this psychotic split. It's so obsessive for him that it becomes a real thing as psychosis does manifest for those who suffer from it. And look, he's sort of a broader, swathed iteration of what we all struggle with, the internal voices, the dilemmas, the persecutory complex, the nanny.

He's everything from Mary Poppins to an enabler, this creature. And it's all out of Vincent. He is basically, through the brilliance of Edgar's drawings, manifested through Vincent's artistry, this thing of his psyche. And also this hope, this hope that he is linking him to his son somehow.

For those who haven't seen it, all the posters, what does Eric look like? Eric's a seven foot tall monster with big eyes, horns, and a huge, almost very cuddly, white fluff ringed with a little bit of purple in the back and blue around the eyes. And he has my eye color, which was a purposeful decision. And also very intense photos of my eyes taken

into a workshop to replicate that. So it was like looking at a weird version of myself, I suppose, as Vincent. But other than that, it is an extraordinary, otherworldly creation. And to read that on the page was enough of a hook, but then to actually enact it was even more joyous. A couple of weeks ago, we had John Krasinski

and Phoebe Waller-Bridge on the show talking about if, as in I F, as in imaginary friend. Yes. And John had clearly, as it's his movie, done a lot of work about When kids have an imaginary friend who they talk to and it kind of stops at the age of 11 or 12. Yeah But in general, it's a good thing that psychiatry say no. No, this is a good thing that it's a creative process But if a child has an imaginary friend, that's a good thing. That's not what you're this is not a good thing

Yes, I know because he sort of passed that cell by day or that period of psychological evolution, I suppose, but that speaks to how arrested his development is because the draw me suffered as a unloved child who had a health crisis at that time in his life. And when it's exposed again, guess what, it reverts in a very similar way. The voices start again as his mother coldly puts it

in one part brilliantly played by um by Phoebe but it's just it is it's it is healthy in the end it is healthy in the end that's the thing it's something it's his psychological punch bag in a way it's something that helps him guides him and makes him able to work through that jumble of things in him to get to a place where he can be more authentically true to what he needs to do and who he is. And that's the very small but very big step for him that we see him take towards his son.

Spoiler alert, at the end of the show. And there are a number of scenes where you're walking through streets or you're in the underground, whatever, and this thing is behind you, so Eric is behind you. It's a real thing. So you're acting to... Yes, no blue screen, a real person, Ollie, in that costume. Who is a puppeteer. Who is a puppeteer and a fantastic actor, a real comedian, a very, very dry...

That must have been very strange. It was strange and brilliant, you know, he was improvising stuff, he was being bigger or smaller than asked, he was just alive, it was a really brilliant performance and You know to then have to inhabit it with my voice afterwards was no easy feat and you know like him We're limited by the the the analog 3d mechanics of it This isn't some CGI fantasy where it can do anything be anything. It is what it is It's a man in a costume, but like all of those things it takes on a real life And when he stepped on set, yeah sure because it's an external thing and Vincent I was very

precious or intrigued or involved I guess about certain details and being confused as how they related to me and all the rest but at heart the child in me was just yes yes this is this is amazing to bring something. So is he doing the lines which you then because you because you voice it? I did we often would rehearse and I do the lines to sort of give a guide of where I thought he would be with his intention but he's an actor so we were always playing with that, that dynamic was always in play and shifting and evolving but yes we would talk about where it would lead me to choices in the edit for the post-production layering in of my voice because we wanted to connect

it to Vincent. It sounded to me like the Shia the post-production laring in of my voice, because we wanted to connect it to Vincent. You sound like the Shia Khan voice that you used. We're getting into that register. Is that American? Yeah, very deep, yeah, very deep. Which limits some of the range of how you can color the voice, but he's got a heft on him.

He's a seven foot tall walk around monster, so you've got to go deep. That's right. But then, you know, I wanted them to augment the voice or give some kind of a coda thing in order to then be able to play at My own pitch and go anywhere up and down like that, but they were right It would have just bumped you out a little bit I think it's it's it's more immediate and it has to be person it has to be somehow related to this written by the Fantastically talented Abby Morgan who I think pitched to you. Did she pitch

it to you? She did. Well, basically I heard that Abby had written this series and I got a log line of it in the first three episodes, not pine, it was three episodes, and was just so intrigued but I knew there were three more and had to ask what, why, when and where does it go. And then I heard that Lucy Forbes was attached, she was already on a list of people I wanted to work with because of the first episode of This Is Gonna Hurt, me going with Elle directed this, it's brilliant. And the first meeting was a lot of Abby.

It was her talking and talking and talking. And she just built this world and there was no question I felt embarrassed to ask that she had an answer or didn't and was honest. And it just, the depth of her imagination and understanding of character is just glorious and being held by Lucy during the production and the pre-production was just was magic as well so the draws were pretty immediate after that first meeting and then more

talks with Lucy and then the three other scripts coming in and hitting home. I need to mention Clark Peters, who is fantastic. Gabby Hoffman, who plays your wife, who is quite extraordinary. Your nine-year-old son, Edgar, played by Ivan Howe... Butch, yeah. Is this his debut? Is this the first thing he's done? Is there any part of you... I know this is not an acting question, or someone who doesn't act.

Do you kind of... Does the father in you think, I need to apologize... I'm being a complete around this boy because that's what my character requires of me, do you apologize to him afterwards? I didn't mean any of that. I think it's very important before actually to go, okay, we're gonna play this scene where I'm gonna say a rude word or smash the place up

or do dastardly horrible things and you know, Butch, considering it was his first time, was so like, okay cool, he was so unfazed by it. Very loving parents. But you know, the safeguarding of a child on set is the most important thing about any drama involving children. You have to create a world in which they understand that they're safe and this is just pretending. Because it can feel very real. It can feel shocking or have a seismic effect and yeah of course apparently he's very very caring about that very anxious about it and you know I talked to Jen his mum about it and he

was totally cool and she was totally cool and they got it it's it's it was a safe place for him. Well my least favorite genre is serial killer movies or TV shows and try and avoid them, followed by missing kid dramas. I know. I don't mean to put people off watching this because there is great resolution and charm and brilliance and wit and adoring redemptive heart to it by the end, but it is a hard watch and I'm probably, I'm in a better position to play these things than I am to watch them

now as a parent, weirdly. Yeah, because there were moments where I thought Benedict and Abby, who I've met a couple of times, where are you taking this? Can I feel confident? But anyway, I watched all six and had a fantastic time. Great, thank you, thank you. Benedict, always a pleasure to speak to you. My pleasure, thank you.

Six feet away from you, so you can't punch me, even if you wanted to. I mean, I could jump, I could try, but I don't think we have any beef. It's all good between us. Benedict, thank you very to. I mean, I could jump, I could try, but I don't think we have any beef. It's all good between us. Benedict, thank you very much. Thank you. I think that's the first time I've been birdsonged. I thought he was... I thought he was...

He's always fascinated because I think he really passionately believed in this project. I mean, sometimes you can tell if someone's heart is not in it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But my guess is that he gave away a little bit too much in that interview, because he did say at one stage, spoiler alert, then give you a big massive steer. Then he talked about great resolution and redemption and all that kind of stuff. Anyway, Eric, there's a new series on Netflix. What do you think,

Mark? Well, firstly, I think that thing about saying, letting the audience know that there is a resolution and redemption, I actually don't think is a spoiler. I think it is, I mean, it was interesting when you said there are certain genres of things that I stay away from. And actually, because of the nature of the story, when it is, you know, looks like it's just a child abduction drama, I know exactly what you meant and I think it's perfectly fine for people to know that it's so much more than that. He spoke about it very passionately. I interviewed Abby Morgan on stage a couple of days ago,

who's the brilliant writer and creator of this, who you mentioned, wrote scripts for Brick Lane, Iron Lady, Shame, the fabulous Steve McQueen film, Sex, Traffic, The Hour, The Split on television. I said to Abby Morgan, look, it's very hard to describe this. It's basically Sesame Street meets Dog Day Afternoon, isn't it? She loved that description. Well, of course, because it's, you know, but what I meant was because Dog Day Afternoon is, you know, Sydney Limit 70s rather than 80s, but Sydney Limit 70s New York Brooklyn set crime thriller that's not about the crime, it's about relationships, it's about TV and media and fact and fantasy. And you know,

Abby Morgan loves Tootsie and she loves New York and she had described the thing, she said, it's a story of a couple coming apart in a city that's coming apart. And she had described the thing, she said it's a story of a couple coming apart in a city that's coming apart. And she wrote this after some very, very testing times in her own life. And I mean, I get the sense that she wrote it with a kind of air of, I'm just going to write whatever I want. You know, I've survived all this other stuff. Now I'm going to, I'm just going to write what I want. I mean, it does feel like that, doesn't it?

Oh yeah, yeah, absolutely. And even though it's not, it's not New York, I think it's Budapest as I recall, you do get the feeling that you're in the best hands, which I think is one of the things that Benedict was referring to in that piece. Yeah, so, tonally very complicated. I mean, on the one hand there is the child abduction story, then there's a story of an addict who's letting everyone down and that kind of takes us back to shame. There's the story of racism in New York. Another disappearance is overlooked and apparently it's overlooked because it's not a white kid. There's the story of wealthy parents distanced

from their son and daughter-in-law. There's a story of mental illness being endured and overlooked. There's a story of homelessness, of city corruption, slum clearance, money grabbing development, a descent into the underworld, a kind of, you know, orpheus story, and at the center of it all, a marriage falling apart. So there is a lot going on. And then into that we throw Eric who is on some level, I suppose, the cousin of the imaginary rabbit in the 1950 film Harvey with James Stewart. And there's also a touch of a monster calls in as much as it's somebody dealing with a trauma through an imaginary monster, although obviously in this case, it's an adult. And there's a key line in it. I think it's Gabby Hoffman's character says,

why puppets? And the answer is because they say the things we can't. And Abby Morgan said that she knew Benedict Cumberbatch could play this role because she'd seen him on stage in Frankenstein. Did you see the Frankenstein when it was him and Johnny Lee Miller? I didn't see it either, but they alternated the roles. And that was the one where they, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, you know, each night one of them would play the monster, each one of them would play

the, would play Dr. Frankenstein and the whole, that was the whole kind of conceit of it. And I think that that is, that ties in very nicely to what he's doing here in as much as as you were saying in that interview, you know, he's Vincent and he is Eric. And you know, and then there's the thing about the imaginary friends in the background. Look, this is really well directed by Lucy Forbes. It's got some absolutely brilliant retro jukebox choices on the soundtrack. I mean, there's ABBA in there, there's Canon, it's just the soundtrack alone. I hope at some point somebody produces a compilation of all the tracks that are used on it because it's a real celluloid jukebox soundtrack, which I love and I imagine

you did too. Mason- Yeah, and there's a scene, in fact I meant to mention it, but we ran out of time with Benedict, where he's in a nightclub and he's off his face, but he dances to Gloria by Laura Branigan. My guess is that was always, it wasn't something that they put in afterwards like in Saturday Night Fever. He knew what the track was. They're all dancing, he's mouthing the words. I think that track now will always remind me of Benedict Cumberbatch being off his face in a nightclub that's supposed to be in New York. Mason- Yeah. I think that that sense of everything is there for a purpose is really important

because on the surface of it, this shouldn't work. I mean, it really shouldn't work. It's much too much of a contrivance and it's much too ambitious. The fact that it does tells you two things. Firstly, that it has a great central performance. It can't be half-finished, it's terrific as well. But you believe their marriage is falling apart and you believe in the split in the alienation between them and their child. That's the first thing. The second thing is, I think it is done with enough conviction that even when there is a seven foot blue puppet in the room, you don't think this is just absurd and silly. What you think is, you get used to it really quickly. I mean, as that clip showed, it's his imaginary friend. It's his Frankensteinian alter ego.

I spent the whole thing thinking this really shouldn't work and the fact that it does work as well as it does is a tribute to the writing, to the way it's directed, to the conviction of the performances and to the fact that it feels at heart completely organic. It feels like it's the creation of somebody who went, I'm just going to tell the story the way I want to tell it. And I just couldn't stop. I thought it was really good. Eric is new on Netflix. Let us know what you think. Correspondence at kodamaio.com. More in a moment. Okay, so if you want to get in touch, correspondence at Curbidermayor.com. If you want to tell us about something that's happening

cinematically related and give it a bit of a plug, then feel free to do that as well. Here's a quick one from Paul Richards. Hi Simon and Mark. On Sunday the 2nd of June, we have Ivo Graham presenting the Talking Heads classic concert film, Stop Making Sense, at the Scared to Dance film night at Hackney Pitch House, preceded by a Q&A with a comedian.

We'd love your listeners to join us. Thanks. Now, I mean, any chance to see that film on a big screen should be grabbed, obviously, that's a very good thing, but when he says there'll be a Q&A with a comedian... With the comedian. With, I imagine that's Ivo Graham. Yeah, I think so, yes. The comedian. Oh, they probably meant David Byrne, the comedian, is going to come on and do a funny move in the funny suit.

If David Byrne was there to do a Q&A, then you've seriously undersold what you're doing, I would suggest. But anyway, attach it on a voice note, tell us what's going on, and we'd like to help out from wherever you are in the world, correspondence at Codemare.com, which is where Stuart has written. This is Stuart, 1986, Isle of Man Eastern District Schools 100-metre and 4x 4x100m relay gold medalist. OK. Thank you, Stuart. Dear Paul and Bob, whilst driving on our long journey from Chester to North East Scotland for a half-term holiday, we naturally had our favourite podcast on, although I must admit we enjoyed the latest Confessions podcast beforehand, which I assume

the redactor will edit out. Well, fortunately he he did not. And even if he had, I would insert it at this point. But thank you, Stuart. When Simon read out Matt from Windgrave's message about the perfect softener. So this is a word which they use as something to watch before going to bed. If you think, you know, if what you've been watching is, you know, is sort of upsetting or tense in some way, then you need to have a softener. So yes, the good lady finance specialist, her indoors and I looked at each other and said in perfect sync, Gone Fishing, the wonderful show with Paul Whitehouse and Bob Mortimer. It takes all the suggested criteria being episodic,

White House and Bob Mortimer. It takes all the suggested criteria being episodic, less than 30 minutes, funny, often poignant and showcasing stunning countryside and nature that we have found to be the ideal watch before bed. Cannot recommend it highly enough. We also agree with Simon on Clarkson's farm. Never been a fan of his before, but we have all really enjoyed this show and the cast of characters in it does a great job of highlighting the issues and challenges that many farmers face every day. I love the show, Steve, from Stuart. So, okay, well, we'll add that to the list of softeners. Gone Fishing, Paul Whitehouse and Bob Morton. I think a lot of people would agree with that.

And Rachel in Birmingham says, Ghosts is a perfect softener. BBC series, so it's on iPlayer. Funny, heartwarming and like a pair of comfy slippers. Plus, only 30 minutes per episode. I think this is definitely a new genre mark which has been created right here. The softener. Yeah, weirdly enough, I was talking to a nephew about Clarkson's Farm and it turns out they've watched all of them. And I said,

oh, Simon May has been going on about this and saying that it's really, really good. And they said, yeah, it is really, really good. But the reason they got into it was because they do like Clarkson. So what's interesting is whether you like Jeremy Clarkson or not, it sounds like the show itself is absolutely hitting the sweet spot. So correspondence at kerbenamow.com, particularly if you have any softeners to add to our brand new genre. What else is out? Okay, so if you thought when we were talking about Eric, as I said, Eric is one of those things that shouldn't work but does. Here is an example of a film that is exactly in that particular

area. This is The Beast, which is a science fiction, romance, drama, thriller, and that doesn't even begin to scrape the surface of it. If you remember, the first time this came up was when we were interviewing George Mackay, gorgeous George Mackay, about Femme. You asked him what he's done since, and he said that he'd made a film with Bertrand Bonello and I think we asked him to describe it, and he said it's indescribable. So, written and directed by Bonello, whose directorial CV in the past includes House of Tolerance, The Pornographer, I mean, none of which I have liked. So I have to say, although he has done some acclaimed work, it's not like, okay, it's a Bonello film, I'm going to like it.

It takes inspiration from a Henry James story, The Beast in the Jungle, which is a story about a man gripped with a premonition of catastrophe. That is the beast of the story that effectively prevents him from finding happiness with the woman he loves and who, as you can see, loves him. And of course, the great catastrophe is that he is prevented from finding this thing. So it's almost about kind of the self-fulfilling prophecy. So here we have two characters played by George Mackay, Leos Ado. Their paths cross across the ages and the story crucially inverts the phobia about catastrophe, it inverts the characters. So in the near future, human emotions are shunned, AI is doing all the work, people

need to clear themselves of thoughts so they can get on better with their jobs. These two characters meet at a facility that provides a DNA purification process by revisiting your past lives and expunging them. And the woman character wants to do this to become more efficient and to get a better job. And she meets the character played by George Mackay and he appears to be in the same process. And then we are taken back through their past lives and in one past life, they're in France, 1910 I think, they meet at a party, recall having met before and talk about That premonition of impending catastrophe is a clip. Do you still have the same feeling then? What did I say?

exactly You talked about something you felt when you were very young something deep inside of you Feeling of doom that a strange rare and terrible thing would befall you sooner or later. You were convinced that it would eventually strike and obliterate you. And I think that was the actual word you used, obliterate. So that's like a period drama. Then there's another story which takes place in America, in 21st century America. This time, the woman is an actress and a model and the man is an incel. He's one of those guys who posts videos online about his growing frustrations and hatred

with women because of the fact that they aren't paying him attention and he is stalking her. And then in 2044 they're both visiting this purification clinic but they're starting to doubt the process because again there seems to be some connection between them. So look, it's ambitious, it's audacious, it's preposterous, and it shouldn't work. There are two films that came to mind when I was watching them. One of them was Darren Aronofsky's The Fountain, in which Hugh Jackman and Rachel Weisz play these characters who are bonded by love across time. Film absolutely bombed. The other one was Bill Forsyth's Being Human, which traces a single soul played by Robin

Williams from caveman times through ancient Rome, Renaissance, modern day New York. Absolutely bombed. And I asked Bill Forsyth once, why do you think that film didn't work? And he says, he said, I should have written a poem. And whilst I was watching The Beast, there were times at the beginning that I thought you should have written a poem. And whilst I was watching The Beast, there were times at the beginning that I thought you should have written a poem. But the thing that's really impressive is against any rhyme or reason, it works. And I was growingly astonished by the fact that it did. There's an interview with Bonello in which he said, my desire was to interweave the intimate and the spectacular, classicism and modernity, the known and the unknown. And he does that. But he also manages to create a very convincing tale of love being variously expressed or repressed or crushed

or twisted due to each particular period. L'Essidère is great. George Mackay, who took over, I think the role was originally written for Gaspar Ullio, is astonishing. What you think it's about as a matter of interpretation, there was another thing that Bernalos said, oh, the film can be summed up very simply. And his summation was, in a time when artificial intelligence has solved all of humanity's problems, an intelligent woman has to make a choice between finding an interesting job or keeping her emotions. Okay, well, on one level, you could reduce it to that. I think it's much more about the way that behind every fear is a wish. You know, that whole psychological thing that the thing you fear is also a wish. That fearing something brings it into existence.

Also, it's a story in which the persistence of love, which is a romantic ideal, is not necessarily a good thing. I mean, perhaps a future in which we don't have all those things makes more sense. I mean, there's stuff about living dolls, there's a weird section of them going to this retro disco. There's an earthquake that put me in mind of Robert Altman's shortcuts. And I kept looking at it thinking this should not work but it got inside me and it's two and a half hours long and by the time I got to the end of it I genuinely stumbled out into the street thinking wow and I I don't know why it affected me quite as profoundly as it did, and I can imagine somebody losing patience with it.

But I thought it was really something, I guarantee you this, you will not see another film like it this year. I think it's really interesting that in this one show, we've had Eric and the Beast, they could not be more different. One of them is television, one of them is film, one of them is six-part, one of them is two and a half hour film. Both of them are perfect examples of they should

not work and the fact that they do makes them all the more impressive. And that is the end of Take 1. This has been a Sony Music Entertainment production, this week's team, Lily Gully, Vicky Zachiemati and Beth, the producer was Gem, the redactor is Simon, Paul, Mark, what is your film of the week? Absolutely hands down the beast. Okay, so thank you very much indeed for listening. Don't forget, Take Two is full of many, many fabulous things. Also, yet another email from Martin Rosen. I mean, there's all the reason that you could subscribe for no other reason, but also to get that. Plus, Questions Smashings is in take two, which has landed alongside

this one. So thank you very much indeed for listening.