Kermode & Mayo’s Take - Brian Cox on GLENROTHAN: will it go down smoothly with Mark?

Episode Date: April 9, 2026

Some exciting news—The Take is now on Patreon: www.patreon.com/kermodeandmayo Become a Vanguardista or an Ultra Vanguardista to get video episodes of Take Two every week, plus member-only chat rooms, polls and submissions to influence the show, behind-the-scenes photos and videos, the monthly Redactor’s Roundup newsletter, and access to a new fortnightly LIVE show—a raucous, unfiltered lunchtime special with the Good Doctors, new features, and live chat so you can heckle, vote, and have your questions read out in real time. Fresh film talk and finely tuned cinematic debate await in this week’s episode of Kermode & Mayo’s Take. The Good Doctors return with their trademark blend of insight and irreverence, casting a critical eye over the latest arrivals on the big screen. Leading the lineup is Father Mother Sister Brother, the latest slanted family drama from Jim Jarmusch, with an all-star cast including Adam Driver, Cate Blanchett, and Charlotte Rampling. Then on to some moody existentialism with The Stranger, an adaptation of Albert Camus’ seminal novel, directed by François Ozon—who was our guest a couple of weeks back. And finally, The Undertone, a podcast-based, sound-forward horror—but will it resonate with Mark? He’ll also be reviewing Glenrothan—a warming, Scottish-set tale of family reunion through whisky, directed by Brian Cox. Simon sits down with this formidable acting talent to discuss his turn to directing. Cox reflects on the changes and challenges of moving behind the camera, and what we can expect from his feature debut. All that alongside a generous helping of listener correspondence, probably some spirited disagreement, and the familiar flickers of presenter exasperation—another essential listen for wittertainees the world over. You can contact the show by emailing [e-mail] or you can find us on social media, @KermodeandMayo Please take our survey and help shape the future of our show: https://www.kermodeandmayo.com/survey EXCLUSIVE NordVPN Deal ➼ https://nordvpn.com/take Try it risk-free now with a 30-day money-back guarantee! Sony Music Entertainment production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts and follow us @sonypodcasts To advertise on this show contact: [e-mail] Timecodes: 00:00:00 Show starts 00:12:02 Father Mother Sister Brother review 00:20:31 Download Chart 00:31:55 Brian Cox interview 00:45:27 Laughter Lift 00:49:49 Undertone review 01:01:30 The Stranger review Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey Mark, you know I'm a really massive techie, right? No. If you saw me at my local coffee shop in Showbiz, North London, you'd probably mistake me for Neo. From The Matrix, without the illegal hacking or sunglasses indoors, obviously. What are you talking about? You're having some sort of breakdown. Do you actually even own a computer?

What I'm talking about, I'm on it now talking to you, is the transformation my web browsing has been through now that I've got NordVPN on all my devices. I use NordVPN to keep my online activity safe with encryption, threat protection and dark web alerts to guard against hackers and to secure public Wi-Fi. Well, welcome to the future, Simon. I've been doing that for ages. And with one click, NordVPN can change your devices virtual location so you can access all the things you need when you're abroad.

Unwrap a huge discount on NordVPN by heading to NordVPN.com slash take. With our link, you'll get an extra four months free on the two-year plan. and it's risk-free with Nord's 30-day money-back guarantee. Check the link in the description. This episode is brought to you by Mooby, the global film company that champions great cinema. From iconic directors to emerging otters, there's always something new to discover. With Mooby, each and every film is hand-selected so you can explore the best of cinema. Yes, a new to Mooby in the UK this March is the brilliant, no other choice from Park Chanwick. If you're a regular listener at the show, you will have heard me reviewing the film and raving about it.

Actually, kind of struggling to describe it because it's a black comedy, it's a thriller, it's a social satire. It's about a man whose life starts to fall apart and he takes unreasonable measures to correct things. I was absolutely fascinated by it. I thought it was a terrific film. And as I said, it's coming to Mooby in the UK from March the 13th. You can try Mooby free for 30 days at Mooby.com slash Komod and Mayo. That's M-U-B-I-D-M-A-R-M-A-for-A-for-M-A-for-M-A-for-M-F for a whole month of great cinema for free. There really is no other choice.

Before we begin, a quick reminder that you can become a Vanguard Easter and get an extra episode every Thursday. Including bonus reviews. Extra viewing suggestions. Viewing recommendations at home and in cinemas. Plus your film and non-film questions answered as best we can in questions, Schmestan. You can get all that extra stuff via Apple Podcasts,

or head to extra takes.com for non-fruit-related devices. There's never been a better time to become a vanguard Easter. Free offer, now available wherever you get your podcasts. And if you're already a vanguard Easter, we salute you. Yes, I'm slightly worried that I might come across as paranoid in today's show. Hello, Simon. Hi, because you know that moment.

because you have this, you have this particularly acutely, I think. Paranoia, yeah. Yeah. And the bit where you finally send off a book, final. Oh, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The final transcript with changes. So I just got to that.

And any mistakes are mine, that's the bit that worries me. Because you always have to add that, which everybody does. You know, thanks very much. Everyone's been great. any mistakes are mine. Yes. And you think, yeah, but the cost of those mistakes will also be mine. Yes.

So I'm just feeling slightly twitchy. So have you just sent the proofs or the manuscript? A corrected manuscript is what I'm saying. Okay, fine. Listen, that's not, it's fine. You've still got the whole thing of the proof's got to come in. And when the proof's come in, you can change things. It's not like you haven't said goodbye to it.

You can change things at proof stage. Yeah, it gets increasingly difficult, doesn't it? I realize this is a very nuanced conversation and very elitist conversation, but I'm just explaining if I sound a bit twitchy on the show today, that's why. That's all. I do, look, I completely understand this. There is a horrible moment when you finally press go. It used to be that you put it in the post, but now you press go and go, yes, this is the completed thing. But that is nothing compared to the horror of pressing go on the finished proof copy. which is this is now going from here to the printer. And if there's anything wrong, I haven't seen it. And then you know that the first thing it's going to happen is that the finished copy is going to come in, you're going to open it. And a huge mistake is going to leap off the page,

like the alien bursting out of John Hertz's stomach and attach itself to your face. And you'll think, why did I not see that? Yes, my particular concern is I've had to obviously create a number of names. and I'm afraid I've looked them up and I've made sure that there's no one famous by these names but I'm sure that there is going to be someone who's going to complain and then wake up at 4 in the morning and then you get a bill

and then you get sued and then you go to prison and firstly you know that's not how it works secondly how since you evidently haven't named somebody for somebody else that it's not you know it's like if you call somebody you know theophilus p wildie well of course you can't do that because of Lenny Henry if you can be with any name there's probably there's a chances are there

somebody in the world out there with that name there was a program that I saw recently it turned out there are still people in the world called Adolf Hitler that seems very strange to me yeah you'd think right yes I can't quite believe that yes it's true would you not change it would you not unless they've changed their name to that because they're particularly... No, no, there were people who were named Adolf Hitler. So, you know, there's a, I don't know if you remember, there was a brilliant documentary called, I think it was called The Name is Bond. And it was a documentary about James Bond and the naming of, the naming of James Bond. There was two things in it. One of them was the fact that Ian Fleming

named James Bond after a bloke who wrote a book about birds, whose wife then complained to Ian Fleming and said, you've stolen his name. And Ian Fleming wrote back said, yeah, you're absolutely right. I'm really sorry. I just thought I did it because it was a bland name, and that's what I wanted. And then actually, they ended up becoming friends. And then there's another thread in that same documentary about a mother and son who were trying to escape from an abusive father.

And all the way through the dock, you can't understand what this has to do with the rest of it. And it turns out, in the end, that the mother changed the son's name to James Bond, because it would make it impossible for the father to find them through the internet because it is the most popular name. That's very smart. Very smart. Really smart. That name will reappear later in this particular show for various reasons.

Anyway, you're all right? Just checking you in. I'm doing good. We should say for the listeners that we're pre-recording this show. It's not a live show. It's not a live show. No, but we're pre-recording. it in advance. And the reason I'm saying that is, because we're recording this about 10 days,

maybe a week and a half before you'll be hearing it. So it's possible that from our recording it to when you're listening to it, some terrible world event has happened that we're not aware of. I'm just flagging that up. Yeah. So if we make no reference to that whatever it is, Armageddon, then it's because we have survived and we're in our own bunker. We don't care. Anyway, you're very welcome to take one. And Mark is going to be reviewing these films. Well, it's a great week.

So we have Father, Mother, Sister, Brother, which is the new film by Jim Jamush. We have undertone described as the scariest film you'll ever hear. And we have... I like the sound of that. That's very good. And The Stranger, Let Tranger, about which we have already spoken to the fabulous, what we're calling him Frankie Ozone.

Francois Ozone. I think because we have respect. We're respect is due. Frankiosin is very disrespectful. Listen to that interview. But this week, our incredibly special guest is Brian Cox, the actor. I'm sure he finds out.

The Brian Cox. Well, the acting Brian Cox. Yeah, I know. So he's going to be on in a little bit. And in take two, Mark, what are you concerning yourself with? In take two, we have reviews of California scheming and also the reissue, the anniversary reissue of Stand By Me. Also, you get even more of the good stuff, including the five-question film club.

Three questions, Your Majesty. Available for you on Patreon intros to heat the silence of the lambs with Nail and I, Heather's and the Elephant Man. And in one frame back, the feature that gives you extended viewing for a weekly cinematic release, with the release of Glenn Rothen and Brian Cox, the actor, not the scientist, being this week's guest. We've been asking for your favourite, Brian Cox. performances on film or television, of which, of course, there are very many. So head on over to our Patreon if you'd like to join the club, plus all the other top quality content, ad free,

and in video, where you can see Mark in all his glory and me with all my records behind me. And there'll be a question, shmestians, in which Mark answers this question, because he's very much aimed at Mark. I think I might get away with it. Go on. What would he say if Jared Letto accosted him in the street and told him that the way Mark talks about him is really mean and he's deeply hurt. That would be fun. I'd film that and put it on YouTube, definitely. No, actually, I wouldn't. I'd film it and put it on Patreon as a special bonus.

Yeah, exactly. Yes, subscriber only content. Correspondence at kerberdemeanor.com. Casey says, Dear doctor and companion, very fun to hear your discussion regarding the ideal doctor casting. Okay. I have what might be an unusual take. I specifically would like the new doctor to be someone I've never heard of. Okay. This is a very good idea, Casey, by the way.

I've been a fan of the show since the middle of the Matt Smith era. Oh, talking about Doctor Who, not this program. When I was 11 or 12, what has made each new doctor magical to me has been their freshness and their lack of association with any other character. I was unfamiliar with Peter Cabaldi and Capaldi. You'll correct me again. I was unfamiliar with Peter Capaldi. Paldi and Jodi Wittaker prior to their respective eras. When Nakuti Gatwa was cast, I had seen

sex education, but I deliberately refrained from going back and re-watching it for the same reason. I don't think what Doctor Who necessarily needs is pre-existing star power, just a really good actor with a few specific talents, talents about which I think Mark was spot on. There are plenty of relatively unknown actors who can absolutely pull that off. It's just a matter of finding them. The role is starry enough and will lift any with the right talents to stardom provided that they rise to the challenge. And along the way a newcomer gets to have their big break. Warm regards to the supremely talented production team down with the Nazis. Love the show, Steve, H2J, etc.

Thank you, Casey. The only problem with that is, I mean, you're completely correct. Wouldn't that be great if they chose someone who's completely unknown, is that they need, you know, the casting, they want someone with a profile or someone who has follows on Instagram or someone that gets people excited when it's announced. Can you imagine them going for a complete unknown? Well, I mean, it's interesting that you hadn't seen anything by Peter Capaldi or Jodie Wittaker because obviously they both had very storied careers before then. I mean, certainly when I was a kid, I'd never heard of Patrick Troughton. I'd never heard of John Pertory.

I'd never heard of Tom Baker. I'd never heard of David Tennant before David Tenant. Did you know who David Tennant was before he got cast? Good question. I don't know. Can't remember. I don't have an awareness of. I mean, I confess I also didn't have an awareness of Matt Smith, but I'm pretty certain I only knew David Tennant

when he was doing Doctor Who as Doctor Who. So he didn't come with any bag. He didn't come with, oh, that they've cast this famous person. Actually, as I remember, Billy Piper was more famous than David Tennant at that point, and certainly Bernard Cribbins.

Yeah, I think all of that is true. I just suspect that given that Doctor Who has to fight for its place, for funding and commissioning and all that kind of stuff, they need some star power. Have they asked you? Now, that would make no sense at all. You're a doctor? Yeah, but I'm a fake doctor.

I'm a showbiz doctor. That's what they want. They want a showbiz doctor. It's not real. You do know that, don't you? It's not real. Which radio presenter would make the best Doctor Who? I think...

Steve Wright. I think I would go for Michelle Hussein. I think she'd be very good. Oh, okay. Interesting cool. I just think, you know... Evan Davis. Evan Davis.

He would be amazing because then he could intends. And he'd baffle them with facts and figures and his understanding of economics. And he wears crazy gear as well. So I think Evan is the perfect job. But you don't think Wrighty arriving on Galefrey and going Galefrey's here, not Galefrey, doctors here, doctor's here. Because Wrighty used to do that. He used to arrive in a room and go, right, he's here.

Yeah. I mean, there's a slight problem with that suggestion. No, I know. I understand. But it's Dr. Who. So, you know, it's regenerative. still think there's a slight problem. Casey, thank you. It's a very interesting idea. Anyway, if anyone from Doctor Who wants to get in touch,

we'd be very interested to get an exclusive. If you can hear a slight rumble, by the way, that isn't the Armageddon that we're afraid of of missing. It's a wood chipper that's in the road, and there's nothing I can do about it. How many chips would a wood chip chip chip, if a wood chip would chip would? It's very good, well remembered. Is there an answer to that?

No. And anyway, it's Chuck, isn't it? It's how many chucks? Okay, what's new and what's out there and what's interesting? Father, Mother, Sister, Brother, which is the new film by Jim Jammuz, chaptered stories with estranged familial links, but which, like Night on Earth, these different stories play out in different towns, different countries, so the US, Dublin, Paris.

So in the first chapter, father, Jeff and Emily, played by Patson Star, Adam Driver, a main bailiak, traveled to visit their estranged father played by, down by Lawstar, Tom Waits. And they think he's not doing so well because the house all supposed to be a shambles

and Adam Driver's character has obviously been helping him out financially for a long time. He doesn't understand how he can get by on just the pension. So they spend some time with him. But it turns out he's doing better than they imagined. Here's a clip from the, first chapter of the film.

Shall I be mother? You might as well start sometime. Aren't you glad we had such unconventional appearance? And I'd I've always been my favorite son. Well, your only son. I do like that joke. You'll always be my favorite son. I'm your only son. You also heard a little bit of that for chapter two because that was a clip from the

trailer. So in the second chapter, mother, Charlotte Rampling, that was her voice you heard, is the mother who was arranged an impressive tea for the annual visit from her daughters, Timothy and Lilith, played by Cape Blanchette and Mickey Creeps. Lilith is playing the role of this thrillingly successful social mover. The Uber she arrives in is actually a car driven by a friend and the stories of her success are increasingly bogus and she's obviously putting on an act. And then in the third chapter, Sister Brother, Sky and Billy, played by Indyamore and Lucas Sabat, are really. reunited in Paris after their parents have died in an air crash. And the housekeeper Landl tells them that they died owing three months rent, but they've prevented the seizure of their belongings. And in each of these three tales, there is a Rolex watch makes an appearance that

seems to point to a hidden life, a deception, a crack in what everyone knows about their family. So the whole thing has got this kind of a sort of slightly melancholic sense of mystery about how little parents and adult children actually know of each other's lives. Do you really know what's going on in your mom and dad's lives? Do they really know what's going on in your lives? There was an interview when Jim Jummish was put in the film together and he described it as very subtle, very quiet, funny and sad. and it is all of those things. It is subtle and quiet and funny and sad. It is also, I have to say, very uneven.

The best section for me was the first section, which effectively constitutes a sort of melancholic short film with a brilliantly barbed sting in the tail. And if it had been a standalone short in which Adam Driver goes to visit Tom Waits, and Dad clearly isn't doing very well, or is he, that would have been, you know, great. The second section, the Charlotte Rampling, Kate Blanchebicki Creep section, is good,

but it's rather less credible. It feels much more theatrical. There's a lot of overhead shots of the tea, which Charlotte Rampling has arranged, and I'm not sure that I bought the whole deception about the daughter who appears to be not doing as well as she's saying. And then the final section, she's the longest, and honestly, the most overtly professional, profound and probably the most truthful is also weirdly enough, probably the least engaging. Now, the fact that any sectioned movie is uneven is not surprising. I mean, actually it applies to all of Jim Jomish's portmanteau films. I mean, Night on Earth, obviously mystery train

has some bits of better than others. There's that thing, coffee and cigarettes. Coffee and cigarettes is a feature, but coffee and cigarettes started as a, so it started, there was a short in the, in the late 80 or the mid 80s, 86, and then there were two subsequent shorts in like 89, and then I think another one was in the 90s. And then it gets anthologized in 2003, and there's 11 segments, actually one of which, if I remember rightly features Cape Blanchette. But again, there are individual segments that I like, but I'm not sure that the whole pulls together, although, you know, Jarmesh himself seems to love an anthology film. I have to say, in the great pantheon of Jim Jarman, films, this isn't up there with

Stranger Than Paradise or down by law, down by law, which I just still, I've always when I was in the Brailletown Bottlers, my friend Olly, at the drop of a hat, I go, Zeg, Jack, Zach, Bob, how you say I look, get the window? Or I look through the window.

Or in fact, more recently, Patterson. And was that funny in the band? It was funny, yeah, it was very, very funny. It was very hilarious. It was very, very hilarious. Particularly when I would finish that, quite by going, well, in this case, Bob, I think you'd have to say, at the window. But it's an incidental work.

I mean, that may be the point. I mean, that thing when Jarmish says it's very subtle, very quiet, it is also very incidental. It's got a kind of a nice tone to it. And I've never met a Jarmish film I didn't like. I just thought this was like, okay, it's fine. It's a kind of holding pattern, but it's not up there with this best work. But if you want something that just sort of washes over you and has got a very, very

good opening 40 minutes with Tom Waits. How many bands you've been in? How many bands have I been in? Yeah. Well, have you never read my fantastic biography, Simon, autobiography? How does it feel a life of musical misadventures in which I think I must have been in about 25 bands or 30 bands? Okay.

Why? Why? That's good. Many. Many bands. You mentioned the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the town potlors. Yes. you mentioned before.

I just think I lose track of the bands that you've been in and I've got a copy of that book. It's a long time since I read it. I think it goes. And I lose track of all the... You lose track. I think it goes... Which is the best band you've been in.

Well, I'm thinking of it. So there was the Tigers, the Vibroge, the basics, fifth incident, border incident, I think. Oh, Bragg in the middle there. um, uh, bottlers, Henry 100, herpes 100, hopeless, um, many, many, many, many.

Okay. I mean, that's 12, but, um, but that's only got you up to me being 20. I'm 63. Are you a splitter then? Is it like the bands, the bands are all fine and then you join and it all, they all fall apart? Yes, that's pretty much it. When I got thrown out of the Vibrosy at that point,

be called the Vibrogs, they said to me, it's not that we don't think you're a good guitarist. We do. We just don't like you. Wow. Could you not just be the bad guitarist? I don't. And the thing it was, I was a bad guitarist. That was the other thing.

As well. As well. Well, they went on to achieve nothing. Yeah, exactly. And look at you. Look at you now. Look at me now. Have they played in Sun Studios?

I suspect they probably haven't. No. suck on that is what Mark is saying so coming up Mark is going to be reviewing undertone La Tranger latest film from Francois Ozone and our special guest is Brian Cox the actor not the scientist plus a sort of top ten and the laughter lift the only elevator where the puns are more mechanical than the machinery

back after this I sold my car in Carvana last night well that's cool no you don't understand it went perfectly real offer down to the penny. They're picking it up tomorrow. Nothing went wrong. So what's the problem? That is the problem. Nothing in my life goes to smoothie. I'm waiting for the catch. Maybe there's no catch. That's exactly what a catch would want me to think. Wow, you need to relax. I need to knock on wood. Do we have wood? Is this tablewood? I think it's laminated. Okay, yeah, that's good. That's close enough.

Car selling without a catch. So your car today on Carvana. Pick up these may apply. Hey Mark Kermud. Yes, Simon Mayo. When we first started our journey in Wissentatement, did you worry that people might not listen or care about what we had to say? I did. What have we made fools of ourselves? Well, thankfully it turns out people love it, specifically when we make fools of ourselves, so we needn't have worried. That's good because we're very good at that.

That said, wouldn't it have been great if there'd been something like Shopify to help us get started? Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world, from household names like Heinz and Mattel to brands just getting started. Get the word out like you have a top marketing team behind you and easily create email and social media campaigns wherever your customers are scrolling or strolling. It's time to turn those what-ifs into... With Shopify today.

Sign up for your £1 per month trial at Shopify.com. That's Shopify.com.uk slash take. Okay, so this, as Markers explained, is not a live show. obviously normally we're live into your ears. It pretends to be a podcast, but actually it's a live show normally, but we're slightly upfront here. So we're speaking before the apocalypse. So we've got an alternative chart to the boxover's top 10.

But this is really interesting. It's the top 20 most popular downloaded films according to the official charts company. Oh, okay. So this is not the same as streamed then. This will be the films that people have paid money. You pay money for streaming, don't you? But if you've downloaded it, it's a specific act. You know, you've seen that a Spider-Man film is available.

It's not on a streamer, but you pay $3.99 to rent or something like that. Yes. Downloaded as a copy, says Simon Poole. Yes. So you get that, so you pay for it. So these are the top 20 most popular downloaded films. Okay. As opposed to just streamed.

Number 20, Jurassic World, Rebirth, 31 weeks. on the chart. Dave Kay, thank you for this, Dave. A wild stomping return that knows exactly what it is. Big dinos, bigger chaos. It's like someone found the franchise's old DNA in Amber and injected it with pure mayhem, not subtle, not sensible,

but absolutely a blast. I grinned like an idiot. Okay. The only word in that that I agree with is idiot. Nice. It's not that you're a bad guitarist, you're not. You just don't like you. 19 is Downton Abbey the grand finale, 23 weeks on the chart.

Yeah, that's exactly what it says. Exactly. Interstellar is at number 18, 348 weeks on the chart. This is like the dark side of the moon. That is really incredible, isn't it? That is just really incredible at 300. Although I don't, I mean, that means it was released 348 weeks ago. But we don't know that it's constantly been in the top 20 for 348 weeks.

I mean, I think that sounds unlikely. It's in its 348th week. Maybe it's gone back in again because maybe there's renewed interest due to Project Hail Mary, which does have certain genetic connections with Interstellar, in as much as the sentiment doth overshadow the science, and that's fine. I just want, if it says 348 weeks, that must be 348 weeks in the chart, surely. Otherwise, it makes no sense. Anyway, Tarrick says, a visually stunning lecture in quantum confusion.

Half the time I felt like I needed a PhD. The other half I just wanted someone to speak plainly. Gorgeous? Well, yes, absolutely. Suttled. Nope. Emotional manipulation at the speed of light. Also, how long would it have taken for him to tap out the message?

Okay. Very good. Still a great film. That's number 18. Number 17 is Anaconda, six weeks in the chance. Yeah. Wow. That's not going to be around for 348 weeks, is it?

Spider-Man Homecoming at number 16. 272 weeks. I think this must be just weeks since they opened. I think it must be. But... Which case, it's a pointless figure. Yeah, but hey, more importantly, however, number 15... The Ballad of Wallace Island.

And JC42, an unexpectedly charming surprise, feels like a folk tale, told a round of fire on a windy beach, wistful, slightly odd and quietly magical. The world building is rich without shouting, and the ending lingers long after. Yeah. And as I said, I know a couple of independent film managers who said they could literally play Ballard of Wallace Island every weekend from now until eternity and it would fill out. the screen. People just love the film. It's proved to be a real slow burn sleeper hit, and it's done terrifically well. Zootropolis 2 is at 14. You know, I like Zootropolis 2. I like Zootropolis 1, but you know, it's good. Dogma is at number 13. Jerry and Gloucester, like a pub debate that spirals into something funnier and smarter than expected. Still great

after all these years. I just was looking at the post of the original. poster for it and the tagline was get touched by an angel. Really? I forgot. I've forgotten that. You really liked Dogman when it came out, didn't you? Because you thought it was kind of really theologically interesting. I just, was Alana Marisette. Alana Morissette was God.

Yes, that's right. Alana Morissette is a cartwheeling god. Yes, which made it very interesting. 28 years later, the Bone Temple is at number 12. And, you know, I am so in the market for the third. in this particular triology. And incidentally, to the person who wrote under the whatever it was on the YouTube, I know, don't go below the line, all the rest of it.

I know. We've explained this so many times. The word is trilogy, but because Mark is stuck in Elvis land. Yes, because American Elvis fans refer to the American triology, because they're Americans. And I find that funny. And they put in syllables where none exist. And then they take some out like aluminum.

H is for horse. is at number 11. Loved it. Absolutely huge fan of that. We love Claire Foy. Claire Foy is currently in the box, in the box office top 10 as well with the magic faraway tree. But H's for Hawk is terrific.

And top hawk work. The Super Mario Brothers movie, 137 weeks in is at number 10? And presumably back in because there's more Mario on the way. And I wonder as well whether the interstellar thing is partly because there's a new Nolan on the way. So at number nine, it's the housemaid. And I like this from Nellie, who says, every scene whispers isn't this deep. While I whispered, I whispered, please hurry up.

A slow burn that mostly just burns time. Housemaid number nine. I enjoyed it. I mean, I thought it was funny. It turns out it's now, is that right? It was Paul Fieg's most money spinning. Anyway, it was, it's daft as a brush. and it is a throwback to all those kind of single white females and all that sort of stuff.

But I really enjoyed it. It's really silly. Hamnets are number eight. Of course it is. Yes. You know, I think you feel the same way. It's good, but it's not as good as eight. I like it a whole lot more than you.

But it's not as good as H's for Hawke, is it? Yes, I think it is as good. I enjoyed them both. I didn't feel emotionally manipulated the way you did. Okay, okay, fair enough. So weapons is at number seven. Oscar winning weapons, the Oscar winning weapons. Wicked for Good is at number six. Yeah. So, you know, I liked the second wicked. I know a lot of people who didn't. But I don't quite,

I don't quite see the huge shift between the first one and the second one. I just thought they were all part. They were all of a piece. So this is the top five then of the most popular downloaded films. Number five, Spider-Man, No Way Home. Yeah, kind of to be expected. Number four. one battle after another which is I mean that's you know that's pretty so that's 19 weeks

and of course a boost since it since it did very very well at the Oscars and a film that cost an awful lot of money

but took an awful lot of money and we'll continue to take money I think Shelter is there number three which I was kind of impressed to see this is only its second week in so it'll

it'll probably be in there for another couple of weeks but I enjoyed it enough when it came out. I thought it was kind of fun. June is at number two. I imagine that's the first one. Yes. Which is weird that June Part 2 isn't alongside it. Because I think generally June Part 2 was regarded to be the superior film. But we have more, there's more dunk coming.

And at number one, 42 weeks on Sinners, the most popular downloaded film in the UK. And again, not a surprise. Obviously the Oscar boost has really really helped, but very popular when it came out and now back up at number one after having rattled everybody's cages at the Oscars by being the one genuine surprise, because Timothy Chalomey was way ahead, I mean, way ahead in the book, he's right up until the last week, and then at the very last minute, he went into second place because of sinners. Susan Galbraith was a housewife in Mayfield, Kentucky, but after a murder in town, Susan took it upon herself to find witnesses who could point to a killer.

She thought she was going to be a hero. But that's not what happened. The lies, the lot of lies. What were Susan's real motives? She wasn't in it to help them find the killer. Why then, did the cops take her seriously? It was known that she was getting funds from them. Susan's son is wrestling with his mother's legacy to this day.

I mean, my mom was, I used the word diabolical. And perhaps the biggest question of all is, Did she help convict an innocent man? I do feel like that they got the wrong people. From Sony Music Entertainment and Message Heard, this is My Mother's Lies, available now on The Binge. Search for it wherever you get your podcast to start listening today. Subscribers to The Binge can listen to all episodes all at once, ad free.

Welcome to Crime Scene, the new weekly show from The Binge, where we tell you the stories behind the world's most. unforgettable crimes. I'm Jonathan Hirsch. You may know me as the host of my fugitive dad or dear Franklin Jones watching you. I'm an executive producer of The Binge, the True Crime Podcast Network, where we bring you a new series on the first of every month. For crime scene, I'm joined by my producer and co-host Cooper Mall, the reporter and voice behind Fatal Beauty and the crimes of Margo Freshwater. We know there are a lot of true crime podcasts out there. I think what makes crime

scene different is that Cooper and I have boots on the ground. We're investigative storytellers. And so many of the stories that come across our desk, we haven't been able to share with you until now. So if you're one of the millions of people who have flocked to the binge for riveting storytelling, deeply investigated true crime series, think of this as all the things that you love about those shows in a single episode. Join us every week in the crime scene office wherever you listen to or watch your shows. This is crime scene, available now. So special guest on the show this week is top actor Brian Cox. So I'm going to go through, just before we hear from him and we hear a clip from the movie.

I'm just going to read out some of his big hits. And if you want to interject or just shout in the background, be a shoddy man. Yeah. Then feel free. Started out in theatre in a 1967 production of Shakespeare's as you like it. probably best known still now, I would think, for the Logan Roy in succession, for which you want a Golden Globe. So here we go. Pope John Paul II, which I completely forgotten, played Dr. Hannibal Lecter in the second best lector thriller, Manhunter.

Oie! Five years before Anthony Hopkins, Braveheart in 1995, the Glimmer Man, 96. Braveheart and Rob Roy. He was in both of them. He was, wasn't he? Yeah. Long Kiss, Goodnight, 96, Rushmore, 98, Super Troopers 2001, which I'd certainly forgotten, LIE, 2001. And that is an astonishing film, LIE, and very, very brave of him to have done it. The born identity and the born supremacy.

Also, The Ring and the Rookie. So he went through, like 2002, he only appeared in movies with The. So X-2, X-Men United. The Escape is 2008. Planet of the Apes, 2011. and the slap 2015. Anyway, so he's done loads. He has won loads of stuff.

And now he has directed a new movie. It's called Glenn Rothen, and you'll hear from Brian Cox after this clip. Your native land. Nice to have you back, Donald. Sure. Well, we, brother. It's been nearly 40 years since you left for America.

So, you can't. Then? Did you have to march into the airport at gunpoint? I don't know what happened between you two. This is a right opportunity for you guys to clean all this up. You were missed as you know. He never missed me. No, but I did.

I've decided to resign as chairman of the distillery. My brother will take over the reins. What? And that is a clip from Glenn Roth and Brian Cox. Welcome to the show. Thank you. How are you? I'm good, actually.

It's been a bit of an exhausting week because I had to fly to New York for one day to do a costume fitting for the next job I'm doing it. And I said, could you not know, you've got to come. You could do costumes in the UK, surely. Well, yes, I could, but not for this because it's an American show. So I had to go on there. They're all, you know, so. And there's these, I mean, what's happening is really interesting in the States at the moment. Because the whole film production, Hollywood is virtually dead.

Virtually dead. So everything, I mean, like Netflix has taken over this huge area in New Jersey. And they're building studios. They built the studio on the Westside Highway in 55th Street. And it's five stages. It's huge, absolutely huge. I went to it the other day because that's where I went for my fitting. So the work is becoming more and more East Coast base rather than West Coast base, which I think, especially for me,

somebody who goes between here and the UK and the US, it's great. But it's really happening over there. Did you get some good clothes out of it, though? What clothes? Yes, did they fit? Did it look? Oh, well, no, because I'm playing an absolute slob. So there were the worst clothes ever.

I had to wear shirts that I would. not be seen my corpse would not be seen in but that wasn't from that point of view and I'm also on a wheelchair okay so I had to also practice my wheelchair as well okay so that's a slightly different vibe so

back back to a familiar a familiar land introduce us to Glenn Rothen and how you got involved in this project well what happened was that I Neil Ziger who's out there who brought the coffee

He came to me and he said, David is David Ashton, who I've been working with for 20 years doing McClevy, you know, it's a radio thing that we've done forever with Chauvonne Redmond and myself, and it's been great. And I said, David's written this film script and you're going to direct it. And I went, oh, hey, I said, what? So, well, you're going to direct this film? I said, what do you mean? He said, no, you're directing this film. I said, well, do I not have any saying to them?

I said, I'm sure you do, but you're still directing the film. So I ended up to writing the film. He said, also there's a partner that you could play as well. I said, well, I'll be happy with that, you know. And the script was sent to me, and I just thought this is a really interesting script. And we worked on it all for quite a while. And originally, I was intending originally, I thought that we'd have an American play, the part that Alan finally plays because he's been in America for so long.

And then I thought, no, I don't. want to do that. I want to play with somebody who's living, and then I realize, of course, the perfect person was Alan. I mean, it's Alan's part. It's been Alan's part all the time. And so getting Alan and then getting that cast and particularly that talent. And the crew is sensational. I mean, I've never worked with such a great crew. And I work from an egalitarian basis that everybody does what they do. I, and they offer it to me. And I take it. I don't say, I want you to do this or I want you to do that. Because I don't know. I don't know. I'm clueless. I work with the team and you're part of the team and you're just the guy who's just, you know, you're just saying action and cut, you know. But it was wonderful experience, absolutely wonderful experience. And I was very nervous. I mean, I really was nervous because I didn't know if I was doing any good. Because I'm not a concept. I don't like concept films. I mean, you know, there are some great, you know, great filmmakers like awesome wells or whatever, but there's nothing one like that. So I just thought, well, I'll just make a,

And it's a simple film. So it was a joy to work on. Had you been tempted to direct before? No. I mean, I've directed in the theatre, but I never ever thought I ever direct a movie. I mean, I'm a sad age nowadays. People have been put out to grass.

Do the skills of directing in the theatre apply? Do they transfer to the film? My thing has always been about the actors. It's always been about the script and the actors. You know, whatever you do, you give it, You would give it the environment, but it's essentially about the relationships of the people. And I think this film covers that incredibly well. And then, of course, what I also loved, and the thing that I wanted to put my, put, put the foot down on,

I mean, in a sense of accelerate was the music idea. The idea that, you know, the Scots are a kind of, we love our music. And we love our folk music. So there's a whole link with that. And that comes through the film. And the two guys Tommy and Roddy who did the music. Again, two Scottish lads. They've never composed for a whole film before.

And I gave them an opportunity. I said, it's your movie. You'd do what you want. So tell us the story that is told in Glenrothan. Well, the story is, basically, I play Sandy. I play the eldest brother. And the eldest brother was a bit of a bore. You know, he's a very sort of canny kind of character.

And he's the, the, The real talent was the youngest brother, played by Alan. And we've got, in flashback, we have a young guy playing. Both the boys who play us are so good. They're so excellent. And that idea is that the youngest one was the real talent. He was the one who did all the experiment with a blended whiskey, which blended whiskey really did actually start a bit earlier than our film.

But in the film we use it, it's a kind of relatively new thing. And the father objects to the notion of blend because it's a malt whiskey business. And then eventually you find out that, in fact, I've embraced it as the subsequent owner of the business or the guy who runs it. And it's about the fact that I wanted to leave. I never wanted to stay. I wanted to get away. I wasn't allowed to because my brother left. And my younger brother left because he left under a cloud and he lives under a very difficult situation.

So I'm left holding the baby, as it were, and I put it together and I run it for 40-odd years. But I've got to a point now where I'm older. My health is probably in a difficult situation. And I write to my brother and say, look, I think it's time I decided what we were going to. Because he's still a partner, even though he's not been there for 40 years. So I tried to persuade him to come back. And so I send him this letter. and he sort of tucks it away and hides it.

And then we go to him in New York. He runs a blues club, a blues bar in Chicago, which is Chicago just has a lot of these amazing blues bars, which was, again, my idea that it was a blues bar, and he runs it. And he's very successful. It's called Donald's Dive, very successful. And what happens is we have a number there

where his daughter played wonderfully by eyes under ship, whose mixed race, she and him sing together this wonderful song. And that's the opening, virtually the opening of the film. And then that place burns down. So he's the brothers and the younger brothers and put in a difficult position about what he does next.

And my daughter, his daughter and the granddaughter always go to Scotland, they've gone. He's never gone back. And so she suggests maybe we should go back and he's dead against it. But then realizing that his club has gone and there may be something to be got from the distillery, he decides. Difficulty. Still not happy about to go to Scotland and he goes to Scotland and then the proverbial hits the fan. Holding grudges is a lot of what the film's about, isn't it?

And families who don't get on, something that you specialize in, or you have done. I have done. Recently. But holding grudges in a movie is always a bad thing and a recipe for disaster.

Yeah. So you've said many times it's a love letter to Scotland. Yeah. It's also a love letter to whiskey. It's not a love letter to porridge. I have to say, porridge comes out of this film very badly.

Well, it's because we make it very badly. I mean, I've made porridge for many years, and my porridge is good, but my brother's porridge is, I mean, it's his porridge. He made it. And then we have to eat it. And it's truly horrible, as I say in the film. It is a whiskey-soaked film.

I was slightly, I was worried for you once, and I was worried for Alan, because he smokes all the way through the film, drinks whiskey all the way through the film, and then he gets on the motorbike. And I was thinking, you know, that's not a good combination. And then there's a very Scottish combination, though I would say. And then when you launch yourself at him, that's something. fight that you have. Was that fun to do?

Where was the last fight you were in? I haven't done a fight for a whole time. I mean, it's threatened. You know, he just rages. He just loses. And then he attacks him, you know, in a way. And of course, it's reminiscent of the fight. We see an earlier fight where he leaves, you know,

which is at the mother's funeral. And the mother has a very strong element in the screen. She's the one who says, get away, get away. You don't want to be here. And she's a deeply unhappy woman. And she's very haunted by it. And he's haunted by his mother. And he goes and he talks to his mother at the graveside.

And he says, you know, I've come back, Mom, and I'm still lost. I miss you. And of course, the thing about Donald, what's really great about Donald is that he's lost something. He knows he's lost something that he needs to find again. And that's one of the, that's also part of one of the reasons. why in a way he comes back. I mean, there's the financial situation, but there's also the thing that he finally realizes

that he's in now in his 60s, at his age, it's time that he just reconnected in some way just to find out what went on. Because he was the one I never wanted to leave. And he wanted this, it's very clear. They have this wonderful scene between the two brothers where the elder, my younger version of me, says, I want to get away.

I don't want to be here. And of course, the irony is he ends up being there and the other brother goes. Many years ago, I interviewed Sean Penn, who had just directed a movie with Mark Rylens. And he said, Mr. Sean Penn, said, you can always tell when someone is theater trained. As someone who's roots from the theater, is that true if you're working in a movie? Can you tell if someone has done theater? Well, I mean, for Sean Penn, I could understand that. because I wouldn't have thought that he's not come across a lot of theater people in that sense,

because he grew up in Hollywood. So it's film, film, film, film, film. We have a different culture. Our roots are in the theatre. And Alan's roots are certainly in the theatre. My roots are certainly in the theatre. Alan said, Hugh, you mean, with cabaret and the stuff that he's done. So that really is.

So I'm not sure about that. I mean, that sounds a little, though it's a bit derogatory. But the theatre for me is where I've learned everything. I'm so grateful to the theatre because I wouldn't have been, I don't think I would be A, the actor and the director, especially in the theatre, if it hadn't been for my relationship to the theatre and understanding it. Once you've played the role in America in the wheelchair with the slobby clothes and so on,

will you be tempted to direct again? Will you be tempted to go back on the stage again? Well, I just see, I mean, I'm happy to do that. But I need to know that people want me to do it. And I'm not going to do it just for my own reasons. I mean, this has happened. And in a way, I never expected. It's completely unexpected that this film happened.

And I'm very proud of the film. Because I'm proud of the way I believe films should be made. They should be egalitarian base. So that everybody does, they contribute their talent. And you don't interfere with their talent. See, so many directors want it their way. so everybody else has to be subservient to that one idea. I don't agree with that.

I really don't agree with that because I do think that filmmaking is a sort of much more embracing thing because of the various skills. Like a collective, really? Yeah, it is a collective. And that's what I'm interested in. Brian Cox is always a pleasure. Thank you so much for talking to us.

Thank you, Simon. Nice to talk to you. Always very entertaining to speak to Brian Cox. I know you've done that many times, but he's just, he's got loads of things to say and decades of understanding to bring to everything. Yeah, he is one of the greatest actors of our generation and, you know, never less than entertaining company.

And when will you be reviewing Glenn Rothen? Films out next week, so reviewing it next week. Okay, so that's on the way meantime, and with the woodchipper in the road still grinding away. It's time for me to grind away as well, as we step once again into the hugely popular loved a lift. Oh dear.

Waited a long time for that lift to arrive didn't we? Well, it's like that. You know, you stand in, you press the button and you're thinking, where is,

where is the lift? Why is it stopping on every floor before I guess to me? I was in a travel lodge the other day, my place of choice, and somebody pressed the button for the lift

and it didn't come, and they pressed the button again, and they pressed the button again. And I said, you know, it doesn't make it come any faster. And they gave me, they gave me what my mother used to referred to you as an old-fashioned look.

Yes, a Paddington's Dair. Yeah. Anyway, as we're in the laughter lift, I might as well deliver these... You might as well. You've got nothing better to do. Hey, Mark, how do you invite a dinosaur for dinner if you're northern? Oh, heaven's above. I don't know.

Can I just say we're defining this means like from the north of England? Yeah, as opposed to what? Well, I remember when Mark and Lard... When Mark and Lard talked a lot about being northern, Nikki Campbell would come on and saying, you know, as I think, you're southern. So, yeah, yeah. Okay, fair enough, for enough.

So I don't want to spoil the joke. How do you invite a dinosaur for dinner if you're from the north of England? I don't know. T, Rex? Hey, Mark, it just occurred to be someone born in... Why would that be from the north of England? Anyone can say T, Rex?

I think it's... But it's... I think it's particularly... Because they call dinner tea. Yes, says Simon Paul. Coming for tea. Wow. Anyway, north of the Watford gap.

This just occurred to me. Someone born in 33 was 45 in 78. That's got to be a record. Hey, that's much better. That's much better. On a recent visit to Copenhagen, grandson 1 came up to me with an outstretched hand holding an acorn. Best of far, being the Danish floor.

What's this? He said, that, that's a tree, young grandson, I replied. He looked confused. This is a tree, are you sure? He asked, yes, in a nutshell. Hey! Can I just say that the biggest laugh for that joke was the sound of the woodchipper? Yes, isn't that the word?

Isn't that like a metaphor for life? Is that a tumbleweed? It's the wood chipper and it's getting closer. You're literally throwing these jokes into the woodchipper. Yeah, and look at the mess that's coming out. Anyway, on the way, Mark will talk about undertone and letrangee, the stranger on the way. I want to tell you guys about a podcast that is near and dear to my heart, and I cannot believe it already came out a year ago,

and you can all go listen to it ad-free by subscribing to the binge podcast channel. What podcast, Corinne? Tell us. Oh, it's called Blink Jake Handel's story. I created it about a man named Jake who I met, who is the, only survivor of a terminal brain illness brought on by heroin use, but there is a lot of mystery and medical malpractice and true crime elements that are very shocking and surprising, and even some supernatural elements. So this is definitely an amazing story.

It's very unique. It did such an incredible job telling the story and cheering it with the world. So if you have not listened to it yet, my goodness, where have you been? Because Blink is so freaking good. Thank you. Search for blink wherever you listen, and subscribers to The Binge will get the entire season ad-free. Plus, you'll get exclusive access to the over 60 other true crime stories on The Binge podcast channel. Hit subscribe on Apple Podcasts or head to getthebinge.com.

Okay, I've got an email here from Katriona at correspondence at cobrammer.com. Dear 90s, Mark, and 90s, Simon. Okay. For many of us listeners who were teenagers in the 90s, as we were really. Jared Leto will forever be Jordan Catalano from 90's show My So-Called Life. Therefore, we will put our fingers in our ears as you berate him. We'll forgive him his most recent nonsense and instead sigh wistfully as we recall the teenage daydreams we had about him. His next feature could be a three-hour epic of him standing in front of a mirror,

flexing his pecks while talking in an Italian accent, and we would still only see him with floppy hair leaning against the school lockers in his plaid shirt. up with Jordan Catalano and down with any other version of Jared Leto. It's Catriano. Okay. We all wore plaid in the 90s. I did the smash its poll winner's party in a green plaid shirt. You're sort of wearing a plaid shirt now.

You're sort of wearing a plaid shirt now, Simon. Well, is it, would you say it's plaid? Well, what would you call it? Chequered. Yeah, I think so. Chubby Chekker. I think it's one of those. Anyway.

Katriona, thank you. Correspondence to codemair.com. What else is out? What else can we go and see? I think you're going to like this. Undertone. This is a low-budget Canadian horror film from featured debut writer-director, Ian Tuas-O-N, flagged on the poster as, and this got me and it got you straight away, the scariest movie you'll ever hear, which is a good tagline. So made for around half a million dollars featuring only two on-screen actors. I mean, you know, remember, in the case of one last deal, it was only one, and that was one too many.

This is just the two. Whatever happened to that film? It briefly skimmed the surface of the top 30 before skipping like a stone over the water into the realms of the unstreamed. I'm surprised. Yes. So, Evie, Nina Kiri, who shoulders most of the movie, and her comatose mother, to whom she is ten, who appears to be in the final stages of her life. She is in that house.

Okay, so she's looking after her mom who is just asleep, unconscious, in a bed. Evie co-hosts a spooky podcast, which she describes is the only thing that's keeping me saying right now, with Adam DeMarco's Justin, who, as with all the other cast members, we only hear. She goes online, she speaks to him. So he is voiced by Adam DeMarco. Apparently, incidentally, Adam DeMarco's voice because I'm DeMarco's in White Lotus, was put on after the film had first been shown. It was after it was picked up and they thought this is going to go somewhere.

So the original voice was Chris Holden-Reed, and then they replaced it with Adam DeMarco, I think probably because of star power. So Justin and Eve, you've got this kind of Molder and Scully-like relationship. He wants to believe in the supernatural stuff that they talk about. And she, despite her religious upbringing, believes in science and rationale over superstition, or does she. So the story starts with Justin on the other end of the line saying, I've been sent 10 audio files in an anonymous email and we're going to listen to them on air. These recordings are apparently made on a phone by a guy named Mike whose partner,

Jessette, was talking in her sleep. She seems to be singing nursery rhymes in her sleep. But when those nursery rhymes are played backwards, they become a lot. creepier. Here's a clip from the trailer. Welcome to the Undertone podcast, where we talk about all things creepy. I'm your in-house skeptic, Evich, and my Belie Berbacher co-host says he has a real treat

for us today. We're listening to 10 mysterious audio recordings from an anonymous email. Are you implying there was hidden messages in it? Let me play it back. In reverse. Play the next one. Let's find out. Now, is he saying who won the war? No.

No, he's saying so much. Although, interesting enough, the fact that you just thought that is kind of, let me come to that point because it's kind of crucial. Okay. All right. So the ensuing story then involves Justin on the one saying, you know, listen, can't you hear that? When he's playing, this goes backwards and he's saying, you know, kill everybody. And she's saying, don't be ridiculous. And while she's saying she's Googling hidden messages in nursery rhymes, hidden messages in bar bar, black sheep.

And this is all just, you know, folk tale nonsense. But gradually, maybe it becomes something else. Now, you will be unsurprised to discover that this actually began life is originally conceived as a radio play. Okay? So it was obviously the audio was the big thing. And you and I are both obviously huge fans of radio. And I have a real thing about recorded voices. Apparently the film was also, it was recorded in, the film was made in the writer-director's

childhood home, which explains a lot about his kind of personal connection to the story and also the fact that the connection about her tending to her to her terminally ill parent. So the film won an audience award at the Fantasia International Film Festival last year. Then it was picked up by A24. And so far on the original budget of half a million, it's taken 15 million. Now, bear in mind, money has been spent on it because that's how these things work. But it's done very well. I really liked it for a number of reasons. The first one is, I think it has the kind of stripped down, let's make the most of the least philosophy of films like Blair Witch Project, which still to this day, people don't remember how scary Blair Witch was when it came out. I have a friend who

was now an actor who was a film critic when she saw the Blair Witch Project in Cannes, and there is a film of her literally having a panic attack on the street afterwards because she'd never been so scared in her life. Or more recently, during lockdown, there was that film host in which the whole thing played out over a Zoom call. You know, so really sort of stripped down resources. Secondly, in the mother-daughter stuff, with the mother in the bed, apparently dying, there is some kind of connective tissue between that and a a film which I talked about before called Relic, which is a horror movie, but I think is a brilliant film about dementia.

And we talked about this at the time. Many people of our age will have had an experience of a loved one with dementia. And it's a very, very hard subject to talk about. But there is a kind of slightly connective thread there. And the third thing is, look, back masking is bunk, right? Yeah, of course it is. Of course it is. And for proof, there's that very good documentary dream deceivers, which is the documentary about the Judas Priest trial in which it was alleged that they had

put backmasked messages in their music. And the trial concluded, this is just silly. There is no evidence at all that I'm saying something backwards, the brain, it's not. And anyway, the messages aren't there. However, I was really fascinated for a guy called, Constantine Raudiv, who kind of pioneered this thing called EVP, electronic voice phenomenon, that he would record silence, and then he would listen to the silence, and he would start to hear voices in it. And the more he listened to the tape, you'd hear little tape noises, and the tape noises would then reveal themselves to be voices. And Bill Blattie, who wrote The Exorcist, became very, very interested in this, because Bill was convinced that these were voices of the

dead attempting to communicate with the living. And in Legion, he writes about these voices, and I spent one really, really strange afternoon with Bill sitting in his upstairs attic, as opposed to his downstairs attic, listening to these tape recordings he had made that he used in Legion. And what happened was you'd just hear, and then he played again, and then you'd hear the, and you'd listen to it again, again, and again, and then suddenly the, would turn into a voice. It would say something. It would say a word. Now, what was actually happening was that your mind was putting order on chaos.

Like when you said, you heard that thing and you said, is he saying who won the war, right? That's what I thought it was. Yeah, no, but that's fine because your brain hears something and it wants to impose order on it. And that's pretty much how EVP works. It's just a noise, but once you've heard it, you can't unhear it. And with Bill, there was this case in which he had all these things in which there were quotes that he uses in Legion. But there was one, he said, I've never been able to decipher it. And he was playing it, and he was playing it.

And he said, I'll play it to you. you see whether you hear anything. And we were sitting with our hands on our headphones like this in Bill's attic. And I heard as clear as day my name. I heard it said, this thing said, Mark Kermode. And I nearly jumped out of my skin. And once I said to Bill, that's my name. Because he'd recorded these in the 1970s way before he and I ever met.

And he went, yeah, that is what it is. Because it isn't. It was my brain imposing order on it. But I've got a real fascination with this. And this is a, it's a creepy idea. It's a really creepy. listen back to that, would I hear something else? Yes. Or if I told you that what you're going to hear is Mark Kermode, that's what you would hear. You know what I mean? Like now you said to me that that tape

in that thing says, who won the war? If you go back, if you press replay on this podcast now and go back to that clip, knowing that Simon said the voice was saying, who won the war, that's what you would hear. It'd be really annoying if you listen back to that and you heard a voice saying Mark Commode. Then you'd have to have an argument with the EVP person. It's not pronounced like that. Anyway, anyway, I think it's a really creepy idea. There's something about leaning into sound.

And I think the writer-director of this film knows exactly what's creepy about it and exactly what to do with it. And the film really engrossed me. I mean, I thought it was a really stripped-down, well-done idea. I was then slightly depressed to discover that in December, it was announced that he's going to write and direct the next paranormal activity movies. Oh, really? Because we have to go there, which is kind of a shame.

I don't know. I mean, if the next paranormal activity film is a patch on this, it will be a miracle. But I thought this was a really effective, creepy, stripped down, single idea, well-executed horror movie, and I really enjoyed it. Thank you. So undertone is the movie that we're talking about. And now we get to the bit of the program, and where we're sent a number of audio files by complete strangers.

Except that it's not a creepy thing. It's a what's on thing. But that's essentially exactly the same idea. Correspondence at codemoe.com, you can send us an audio file, or you can send a video, which will be a very beautiful thing. First of all, Peter Turner, a lecturer at Oxford Brooks University. Hello, Simon and Mark. I've been loving your recent discussions about,

and the emails from listeners who watched age-inappropriate films kids. I thought you might be interested to know that I've just published a book on exactly this topic with Edinburgh University Press. It's called unsuitable film and video audiences. I won't give you the full title because it's too long. But the book is basically based on oral histories and questionnaires I conducted with 300 people from people who grew up during the 1980s video boom in the UK. All right. Okay. So that's Peter Turner. Can I just say, I've just looked this up when he said I won't say because it would be too long. Not really.

Unsuitable film and video audiences underage viewing memories and practices in 1980s United Kingdom. Okay, so that's an academic book, isn't it? Because if that was like... Edinburgh University Press. Yeah, it's got a good cover from Poltergeist.

All right. Okay. Peter, thank you very much indeed. If you have something that's connected to cinema or movies, whether it's a Wattson, or you've got a book out or a film out or whatever it is, we'd like to know about it. Send it to correspondence. codemoe.com. Thank you very much indeed for all the clips that we've had so far. We'll do as many as we can

as we go through the weeks. Okay, so we had Francois-Ozant on the show very recently talking about the stranger, letrangee. And there was like a couple of weeks up front. And we said then that we couldn't review it because it's not out, but now it makes perfect sense because you can go and see it. Yes. So, The Stranger La Tranger, which is an adaptation of Albert Camus' 1940's novel, which is now considered a key text in the evolution of existentialism. Apparently, one of the most widely read French novels worldwide. I didn't know that. I found that out from Wikipedia. I know about, or knew about, first, knew about La Tranger the stranger because of the Cures record, killing an Arab, which came out in the 1970s. And I remember hearing it and going, what on earth is that about? It's a book. It's called The Strangers by Albert Camus. And so, you know, went off and got a copy of Al because it wasn't a set text here anyway. And so read it. And it was a sort of typical angsty text in the manner of I said this to Ozone like Catcher in the Rye. And in the song, in the Cure song, there's that line, whatever I choose, it amounts to the same absolutely nothing, which kind of, you know, ties into that sort of angsty, nealistic, nothing means anything thing that you have when you're when you're a teenager. So the novel, centers on young man Maseau who's disaffected taciturn, I think is the word that you talked about when you were talking about. Yeah, the judge calls him taciturn. That's right, yeah. So he shows little emotion when his mother dies or when an acquaintance beats up a young woman or when his girlfriend

asks him if they should get married. He says, I don't know. Well, fine. If you want to get married, fine. Or when for reasons that are the sort of central thing of the thing, he kills an unnamed. man, an Arab, as he says, on a beach. It's a crime for which he's arrested and tried, and the film opens with somebody saying, why are you in here? And he says, because I kill an Arab. And you always have to put that in inverted comments, because that is the direct quote. So this was previously filmed by Luchina Visconti with Machalo Mastriani, although apparently that he only ended up doing because Visconti wanted Delon, Alan Delon, and the studio wouldn't go with it. And the film got mixed responses. And apparently,

Camus' estate didn't like it very much. Camus, who I think died in 1960, had wanted it to be filmed by Jean Renoir, which is what Ozone was mentioning. So Ozu, as he told the film Ozu, Ozone, I'm saying Ozu, I'm turning him into a Japanese director. Ozone wanted to make a film about a disenfranchised young man of today who committed suicide. And he said he couldn't get funding for it. And then somebody said, you should read Lettronge. And he said, well, I had read Lettronge, because it was a set text in the same way like Lord of the Flies was for us. And then he revisited that book in the wake of this project that he didn't make and thought, okay, this is a way of doing a story that has a connection.

So he sold that idea to Benjamin Voisin, playing the central character. And so now you have this version, which is the second version. And in order to do it, he had to have it signed off. by the Camus Estate. So the irony is that the Visconti version, which is from the 60s, is made in vibrant color. This new version made in the 21st century is in black and white.

And in fact, if you heard the interview, I said to Oson, you know, is it to do with the black and white morality? He said, well, actually, it was largely to do with economics because if you haven't got the money to do a period film, you do it in black and white. But he also said it was to do emphasize the sunlight because the sunlight is a very big part of this.

And so in the film, as in previous incarnations, So the whole thing is he's not being executed for the murder because as everybody tells him, he's not the first person to kill an Arab and he won't be the last. And many people have got off for doing that. He says he's condemned for not crying at his mother's funeral and for being an atheist and for refusing to show contrition. So Ozone uses that narrative, but he says that what he's doing is updating it for 2026, not 1942.

And he said in our interview, because you asked him about this directly, He said, what shocked me when I read the book today was the invisibilization of the Arabs. And he then went on to say that the book has been attacked for being colonialist, which it's not, he says. He talked about the fact there was an apartheid relating to French Algeria in which there was second-class citizens. And what Camus was doing was reflecting that apartheid. Anyway, that argument can rage and rage. It doesn't matter. He was also talking about the fact that the story of the Algerian war is still taboo.

France. I mean, as everybody knows, Battle of Algiers was a kind of, it was a key to anyway. It is still something which needs to be updated and contextualized from modern audience. So in this version, the main difference with this version is that both the victim and the victim's sister are given a degree of agency and are named. So Musa Hamdani and Jamili. And he said, you know, she is there to bear witness to the fact that in this story and at the trial, her brother is never mentioned, even though he is the one who is murdered. And he said that far from contradicting the novel, what he was doing was pulling a thread that was always there

in Camus, but he was just sort of drawing it out. And you then said, which I thought was really insightful, do the female characters act as a counterpoint to the toxicity of the men? And he agreed that. Yeah, it felt like that that's what he'd done, certainly. Yes, and he agreed with you that that is exactly what was happening is that the sister was absolutely the conscience and there is a there are moments during it in which women interact with each other in a way which is empathetic in a way which never happens with the with the men now of course inevitably when this happens some critics felt that oh he's just fallen foul of political correctness in fact camus daughter who authorized the adaptation was quoted as saying i thought the film was very

good, but not the role he gave the sister at the end. I think Francois-Oz-Oz-on did it to satisfy wokeism. Yeah. Really? Yeah. So, yeah, precisely. So I think that the, I mean, I think the film does capture the angsty detachment of youth, and it reminds me why it was that when, as a younger man, it was a kid, really, you know, that book seemed kind of profound and nealistic. And applaud it to the act of playing the central role because you're playing an empty vessel. I mean, you're playing a cipher. You're playing someone who is to quite ozone again, you know, an idea an abstraction rather than a person. My problem, and you and I talked about this a little bit, and I want to know whether you still feel the same way. My problem is this. Existentialist

despair is essentially infantile, okay? Yes. Sartre wrote being a nothingness in the 1940s, and then he grew up, and he became a Marxist, and he wrote Search for a Methodist. in the 50s and critique of dialectical realism in the 60s, which accepted that the material world does affect how you understand the world. You know, that there are real things really happening in the real world that really matter how you experience a thing. And so there is a weird thing about stepping back into the story at all, which is that the central character is, well, how did you find the central character? Well, I mean, certainly Benjamin Voisin. Voisin.

Francois said his name, playing most, so he's very good. And that must be, as you mentioned, must be very difficult to sort of be nothing, to not react, because acting is all about reacting. Anyway, he's just this most infuriating character. And I don't, to be honest, existentialism and all that kind of nonsense, you come across at university and it's infuriating and you don't often see it in the cinema. It's always felt to me like an affectation of the wealthy. And you can just go, oh, yeah.

Yes, life is absurd, nothing matters. Well, you can think life is absurd, but how about everything matters? And if the thing that you think about means that when the woman next door is being beaten up, you don't have an opinion, then frankly, your whole outlook is completely rubbish. So I just, I agree with you. Just grow up. It is something that you might want to think about when you're 15.

But Merceau is a grown man, you know, and he just hides and is nothing to anybody. So I found it very well done, very well directed. I thought the black and white was excellent. But the whole idea that existentialism means anything or is profound in any way to be ludicrous. That's what I thought. Okay, so let me ask you this. If you think that the central character

and the central philosophical thrust of that character is ludicrous, does that mean necessarily that the film itself is ludicrous? Or does it mean that the film is rendering? Fine. Okay. So we're on the same page. I kind of thought we're supposed to be infuriated by this guy. You know, we're supposed to think, yes.

This is outrageous. And you just, the only bit, the only bit of the movie, which I didn't quite agree with or thought, you've lost me there, is when Merso is with his girlfriend, Marie, played by Rebecca Mande. Yes. And she says, oh, you know, I love you. I want to get married. And he goes, all right.

Okay. I mean, I don't mind. Surely every woman at that point would have gone, okay, I'm out of here. You are so infuriating. You don't care about anything at all. I'm gone. So I did think that most women would have just scarpered at that point, even though, obviously, you know, he's got a nice butt,

and that may well be enough for her, but it wasn't enough for me. One of the interesting things about the film for me was I thought the film was almost stolen by Denny Lavant. as the dog beating Salamanu. He's only on for about three minutes. He is, but aren't they three minutes in which, because you see him, you know, shouting and beating his dog,

and then the dog is gone, and he's bereft. And he, you know, and I know there's the whole metaphor about the way in which he, all that stuff going on, but I thought that there was something, I thought he did a brilliant job with a small role, a small but crucial role. Didn't you think? Yes, yes, I did. I thought, you know, he was very good. But then, of course, Mersault just goes, well, Gaelic shrug, jeuner sioux.

I don't get it as a dog, you know, whatever. But do we agree that the accusation of wokeism is just pitiful? Oh, it's ludicrous. Because I thought he did that. I thought he did that very well. He's making the same story, but he's just aware of the fact that it, obviously, it's a colonial story, even if it's not written as a colonialist piece of literature. It is about the French occupation of Algeria. It's an

interesting story. I thought it was very subtly handled all that. Yeah. Yeah. And it just makes my toes curl that people go. I don't think that was the French original. Anyway, the movie is Le Tronje or the Stranger. Be interested to know you think correspondence at carbonomever.com, if you are an existentialist, if you believe that life is absurd and that nothing matters, obviously fight your corner. That would be very fine. No, they wouldn't. They just go, oh, I suppose that's right. They don't care about anything. So why would they listen to this show? Yeah, that's right. Okay, good point. So that's it for this week.

This has been a Sony music entertainment production. This week's team, Jen, Eric, Josh, Heather Dom, and the Woodchipper. The redactor with Simon Poole, and if you're not following the pod already, please do so wherever you get all of your podcasts. Come and join us on Patreon where all the fun stuff is. Mark, what is your film of the week? You know, I'm going to go for undertone. Oh, very good, the scariest film you've ever heard. We're going to bestow a year's ultra membership to Correspondent of the Week.

How about Catriona, who was the Jared Leto fan? Yes. I think she deserves it for, even though he knows. even though Catriona knows that Jared is a bit of a fool, I think. She just closes her eyes and dreams of Jordan Catalano from back in the 90s. So you get a year's worth of ultra membership. What a fine thing that is. Feel free to get in touch.

We'd love to hear from you. Correspondence at covenomodemo.com. There'll be another take landed just adjacent to this one.