Kermode & Mayo’s Take - Did Mark ‘Louvre’ Josh O’Connor’s timely heist movie THE MASTERMIND? + Does SPRINGSTEEN deliver?

Episode Date: October 23, 2025

This Week on the Show: Josh O’Connor, Kelly Reichardt & the Art of the Heist Fresh off the headlines of a real-life Louvre robbery, indie auteur Kelly Reichardt and breakout star Josh O’Connor join Simon to talk about their buzzy new film, The Mastermind—a stylish 70s-set art-heist drama that’s suddenly feeling very timely. O’Connor plays JB, a slacker dad whose low-stakes gallery theft spirals into something far more chaotic. Expect Nixon-era nostalgia, vintage fashion deep-dives, and awkward ovation etiquette. Plus, Josh spills on his upcoming Spielberg project—yes, that Spielberg. Mark Reviews: The Mastermind – Does Reichardt’s latest live up to the hype? Regretting You – A romantic drama with a title tailor-made for snark. Mark’s rant radar is fully activated. Sketch – A family film where kids’ drawings come to life. But does the magic hold up? Springsteen: Deliver Me From Nowhere – Jeremy Allen White stars as The Boss in this hotly anticipated biopic. Does it rock or roll off the rails? Whether you're here for reviews, behind-the-scenes stories, or just want to know what’s worth your cinema ticket this week, we’ve got you covered. And some exciting news: The Take is now on Patreon! Find our page here: www.patreon.com/kermodeandmayo You can now become a Vanguardista—or join the new ranks of the Ultra Vanguardistas, on our Patreon page. Get a whole extra show with Take 2 every week, plus... Access to our new member-only Patreon chat rooms Polls & submissions — vote on the films we cover, send us questions to answer, and try your best (or worst) jokes for the Laughter Lift. Behind-the-scenes photos and videos you won’t find anywhere else. Video versions of ALL upcoming Take Two bonus episodes A new monthly newsletter called The Redactor’s Roundup And, most excitingly... A whole brand new fortnightly LIVE show from the Good Doctors – and the chance to message on the live chat during the show AND Don’t miss our upcoming LIVE Christmas Extravaganza at London’s Prince Edward Theatre on 7th December. Tickets here: fane.co.uk/kermode-mayo Timecodes (for Vanguardistas listening ad-free) Regretting You Review: 10:51 Box Office Top Ten: 19:54 Josh O’Connor & Kelly Reichardt Interview: 33:31 The Mastermind Review: 48:15 Laughter Lift: 57:40 Springsteen: Deliver Me From Nowhere Review: 1:01:04 Sketch Review: 01:15:57 You can contact the show by emailing [e-mail] or you can find us on social media, @KermodeandMayo Please take our survey and help shape the future of our show: https://www.kermodeandmayo.com/survey EXCLUSIVE NordVPN Deal ➼ https://nordvpn.com/take Try it risk-free now with a 30-day money-back guarantee! A Sony Music Entertainment production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts and follow us @sonypodcasts To advertise on this show contact: [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This episode is brought to you by Mooby, a curated streaming service dedicated to elevating great cinema. Mooby is the place to discover ambitious films by visionary filmmakers, all carefully handpicked. So, you can explore the best of cinema streaming anytime, anywhere. Mark, what have Mooby got up their sleeves for us this October? Well, Simon, there's a very exciting new release coming to UK cinemas on October the 24th, The Mastermind. It's the new film from Kelly Reichard, the brilliant director of Meek's cutoff, Moves and First Cow, which we interviewed the great Toby Jones. It went down a storming can early this year.

It stars Josh O'Connor, of course, another Kermode and Mayo favorite, alongside Lana Hame, Gabby Hoffman, Hope Davis, and Bill Camp. Visit mooby.com slash mastermind for showtimes and tickets. And to stream great films at home, you can try Mooby free for 30 days at mooby.com slash Kermud and Mayo. That's Mubi.com slash Kermud and Mayo for a whole month of great cinema for free. Now, Mark, if you've shopped online, chances are you've bought from a business powered by Shopify. You know that purple, shop pay button you see at checkout.

The one that makes buying so incredibly easy, that's Shopify. And there's a reason so many businesses sell with it. Shopify makes it incredibly easy to start and run your business. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world, including names like Mattel and Jim Shark to brands just getting started. Shopify has hundreds of beautiful, ready-to-go templates to express your brand style. Tackle anything from inventory to payments to analytics and more, all in one place. And Shopify has built-in marketing and email tools to find and keep new customers.

If you want to see fewer carts being abandoned, it's time for you to head over to Shopify. Sign up for your £1 per month trial and start selling today at Shopify.com.com.uk slash take. Go to Shopify.com.com.uk slash take. Shopify.com.ukuk slash take. Before we begin, a quick reminder that you can become a Vanguard Easter and get an extra episode every Thursday. Including bonus reviews. Extra viewing suggestions.

Viewing recommendations at home and in cinemas. Plus your film and non-film questions answered as best we can in questions, Schmessians. You can get all that extra stuff via Apple Podcasts or head to extra takes.com for non-fruit-related devices. There's never been a better time to become a Vanguard Easter. Free offer, now available, wherever you get your podcasts. And if you're already a Vanguard Easter, we salute you.

Well, this appears to be another award-winning, rather fabulous take, brought to you by the take. And I'm trying to work out where you, are you in Cambridge? Yeah, look at things. Yes. Look at my fabulous base. hanging on the wall behind me. Boy, did that base see some action over the last few days.

Thank you for asking, Simon. The gang of three gig went absolutely brilliantly. We blew the roof of Future Yard. It was, it was, it was, it was days. And, and as you'll discover at the end of take two, your request from a long time ago was fulfilled in full. Yeah, but in full is sort of can be interpreted loosely and as much as you got rid of it very, very quickly, I think,

which is rather disturbing. And I was going to ask that, but I was just on the opening, you know, cordial exchange before I... No, I just thought I'd leap straight in. How's your book selling? Because you were at a book festival. You were putting pictures of you and Jeremy Vine? Yes, it was a rather strange thing.

Cheltenham Literature Festival, which is a great thing to be invited to go and do. So someone on their team thought it would be a good, I did because Jeremy's got a book out and I've got a book out that put us put us together. I was on at the Cheltenham Film Festival. I didn't get asked to speak to Jeremy Vine. Yeah, well it was probably more fun just doing it on your own. But it kind of makes sense. You know, he's a radio two person. I'm greatest hits and I Which venue were you in? How big was it? Yeah, we were in the 2000 seat, I think. Yeah,

they had to build, they actually, it was like the sphere in Vegas. It was so, it's like Patreon is an extension of what we do. They had their biggest and then they had to make it even bigger. How long was your signing queue? The key thing, the most awkward thing about these book signings, because on the one hand, they're very important and I like doing them because if someone has bought your book, the very least you could do is to say hello and sign it, and that's fine.

And I'm happy to meet absolutely everybody who's bought anything, whatever they want. The problem is when you do it with someone else. Now I have done book signings where I have had the bigger queue And the other person had a small queue I have done the other way around Where I've had a small queue And the other rights had a very big cue

And it's toe-curlingly embarrassing Whichever way Whichever way this happens So I was in one one time And the good lady ceramicist Her indoors had come with me She went and bought the other person's book Because she felt sorry for them

She didn't want the book But it's like If someone has got I don't know, say 20 or 30 people in a queue and the other person has one. It's just awful. It's terrible to be the one, but it's terrible to be the 20 or 30 because you're saying, I'm sorry,

I'm sure they, you know, they'll probably anyway. So I remember David Gilmore coming in at Radio 2 and he was great and we did a lovely chat and I can't remember what it was particularly about Bayway. We had a good conversation and He said, he said there was a, I said, oh, there's a big crowd outside.

He said, yes, I haven't signed autographs for a long time. So I think if you're in a mega, mega band, you cannot do, you know, if you're in Pink Floyd, you can't just stop and chat and have selfies with everybody. So there is that, like, that ultimate tier, which I don't think we've got to yet. No, no. Nor are we likely to. No, we're still at the point that we're quite grateful. Genuinely grateful that anyone spends 1250 or whatever it is on the book.

You know, in the script it says brief chat. I don't think that was brief, so should we move on? And then it says, throw to Mark for review line up. And then it says, Mark, what's happening later? Mark talks animatedly about regretting you, Springsteen deliver me from nowhere, sketch, and the mastermind, which brings us to our very special guests. Yes, director Kelly Reichart and friend of the show, Josh O'Connor, who talked to me about the mastermind, a movie where someone conducts an art theft in broad daylight.

How preposterous that could never happen in real life. And guaranteed that Louvre thing is going to be, is already a script somewhere. Anyway, take two. What are the reviews about there, Mark? More reviews in Take Two. We have Where is Heaven? And Chainsaw Man, The Movie, about which, I mean, I've seen it, but I have no idea what was going on. Plus, all the other extra stuff, including details of all the best and worst films on TV over the weekend.

Further discussion of the best life on the run movies in one frame back. and questions questions in which we answer the excellent question, quite what is a horror film. Plus, let me remind you that full video episodes are now available at YouTube, or even on YouTube, as well as the reviews and the interviews so you can head over and subscribe. And that would be a very, very lovely thing.

Now, we have got, now you might know about this, but we have got, I believe Mark, some very exciting news. We've had the planning permission granted a while back, and the builders have just finished the new extension to the church. Starting today, we are on Patreon. Nothing is changing for Vanguard Easter's. Nothing is changing at all. Your extra take subscription on Apple or supporting cast will stay exactly as it is,

but Patreon lets us take, Comod and Mayo's take even further. Too many takes in that sentence, I think, but anyway. It's going to be bigger, better and closer to you. There will be not just one tier. There will be two tiers. on Patreon, Vanguard Easter, which is this one, and get this, this must have been a long meeting, Ultra Vanguard Easter. Yeah, I mean, do you think it could have been Vanguard Easter plus?

Well, everyone's losing the... But no, I suppose Ultra makes it sound more fanatical. Ultra. I suppose. Yeah. Two tier Kerr mode. Two tier Kiermode. It's weird, though, because in the Isle of Man, Kermode is actually pronounced Kiermet.

So two tier Kiermint is actually quite good. Anyway, the Van God Easter tier includes everything you already enjoy, weekly bonus episodes, And add free listening. Plus, and this is a really big plus, you'll get access to our new member-only chat rooms to discuss films, telly, and assorted nonsense. A member-only chat room sounds... Hello?

Hello. Is that you? Do you want to meet later? Anyway, but the brand-new tier, Ultra-Vangard Easter, is what we're most excited about. This is for the church members who want to get even more content, a closer connection with the church and your fellow parishioners, and to get even more involved in the show.

So this tier includes everything from the Vanguard Easter tier, plus our new live video and audio show, Take Ultra, which is happening twice a month and it's live. You'll have access to a bunch of new stuff. Polls and submissions, where you can vote on the films we cover. Send us questions to answer and try your best or worst jokes out for the laughter lift,

though actually I think what we have is pretty amazing. Behind the scenes, photos and videos, you won't find anywhere else. I find that slightly disturbing. Video versions of all upcoming take-two bonus episodes. And I am reading this. A new monthly, hilarious,

insightful, moving and beautifully crafted newsletter called The Redactors Roundup. I look back at the month and I look forward at the month to come. Some previews and the best of the film from across the internets.

How has he been allowed to get this far? I hear you ask, well, it's a very good question, but anyway, these are all exciting adventures that we're all off on together. And on top of that, Simon, you get an entirely new show. I mean, yes, the new show will be fully videoed and fully audioed, and so it's got pictures and sound and everything, and includes a whole bunch of new stuff, such as a monthly roundup of new releases to watch at home in what we're calling Carpe Stream. We'll have another run at that pun? We're calling it Carpe... Carpe streum. Hmm.

Mm. And we'll be inducting cinemas, scenes, actors, composers, directors and loads of others into our Hall of Fame. We'll be reviewing your provocative takes on film and beyond in five-star statements. And, and I'm particularly excited about this, we'll be taking the best of the worst of the best of the YouTube comments very seriously indeed. as we go below the line in our below the line feature hot takes and cold comforts

never go below the line plus loads of other stuff I'm slightly disturbed about most of this anyway most of all the show will be live live yes live every other week at about half past 12 Simon Paul thinks of it as a naughty lunchtime treat something which is obviously

part of his lingua franker Anyway, a naughty lunchtime treat is like going to Gregg's, I would have thought, and having an extra sausage roll. So think of it like that. And you'll be able to send messages to us of the live feed and everything else. Don't swear as much as Mark, but everything else is going to be fine. So we are the Greg's vegetarian sausage roll of podcasting. That show will, of course, be available for viewing or listening later in the day

if you can't join us for a cup of soup and a gossip or a rusty bag of popcorn, which apparently in this new order of things will not be just tolerated but will be actively encouraged. I don't, I didn't agree to that particularly. I didn't agree to the 90% off either, but there we go. What are you going to do? Yeah, I know.

Strange times, unsettling times. Head to patreon.com slash comitomeo and everything will become, you know, self-explanatory as much as anything is these days. Correspondence atcom. That's what we'd like to hear from you on. But there is some exciting stuff. So the Patriot stuff is genuinely exciting.

There will be more material. We will be going live, which we haven't done for a while. So our kind of slack habits become evident to everybody. I love Slack habits. I've got all their albums. Slack habits would definitely be a 15, if it was a movie. Don't you think Slack Habits? Or an 18, even.

Actually, it's not bad Slack habits. It could be a feature. Yeah. The redactors is writing that one. down even as we speak. Do you know what it's time for? I think it's one of those. Do you remember when you used to do film reviews? Do you remember those days? Yeah, I remember that. Have you got any? Yeah, I've got something. Okay. So, here we go. Regretting you, which is a romantic drama by, it was adapted by screenwriter Susan McMartin from the novel by Colin Hoove, who wrote It Ends

with us and directed by Josh Boone, who directed the fault in our stars. So you kind of, you know, we're in for a cocktail of, you know, love and death and abuse and pop songs. So Alison Williams is Morgan Grant. Now, follow this because it's complicated, all right? Morgan Grant, mother to McKenna, McKenna Grace's Clara, with whom she became pregnant when she was young and she wound up marrying Scott. Dave Franco is Jonah, who clearly had the hot. for Morgan when young, then disappeared, is now married to Jenny, who is Morgan's younger sister who talks to Clara as if she were her daughter. Are you following this? I am writing this down, but I am slightly confused. Okay, so far so complicatedly incestuous. Then there's Mason Tem,

star of the black phone movies, and the gawky lead of the live action, How to Train Your Dragon, who is bad boy with a heart of gold, Miller Adams, for whom, Clara, who you'll remember treats her aunt as if she is her mother, develop the hot after picking him up hitching. Here is a clip from the trailer. Where is Clara? Hey, Aunt Jenny. Hey, Claire Bear.

Guess who just spent the last half hour with the coolest guy in school? Oh, my God. Don't tell my mom about this. You know she gets. Yeah, no, of course I won't. Sometimes it scares me how good of a liar you are. Life can have a funny way of surprising you. My mom got pregnant with me when she was 18.

She and my dad were high school sweethearts. My aunt Jenny also ended up with her high school boyfriend, Jonah. I thought we would be one big happy family forever. But the universe had other plans. I'm very sorry. Your husband and sister were in a car accident. We did everything we could. Wow.

Yeah, exactly. That trailer says to me, this film is not. for you. There's a lot of information in there. Now, just to be clear, the husband and sister, who they tried everything, but they couldn't do anything, are Jenny and Scott. Okay, so both are now dead. Crucially, both were in the car together. Dun, dun, done, duh. Okay, so have you done the maths on this? No, no, I haven't. Are they related in some way? No, they're having a ding-dong. Well, they were having a ding-dong. They're not with us anymore because of the fatal car crash. What happened to Morgan?

Morgan's still alive. Morgan's still alive. And Jenny, is she okay? No, she's not. Jenny and Scott were in the car together. They were in the car together. Dun, dun, duh. So where was Clara?

Clara's, well, weirdly, Clara was texting at the moment that it happened, which is a whole other thing. So now, just to get everyone up to speed again. So two adults, who had the hots for each other when they were younger, who have both now lost their partners, who were in the car together when Jenny was texting,

one of whom being the aunt who she treated like a mother. And a young girl grieving for her lost father, who is now falling for the local bad boy, and who would not be thrilled if, A, her mum and uncle by marriage started, well, you know, dating, and B, if she realized that the young, the person that she thinks of as a nephew is, anyway, you know, can I just ask, I don't know whether you had these as a kid. Yeah. There's an artist, there's a guy called Richard Scarrie.

Rock family trees. Kind of, uh, no, busy town. Oh, busy town. You know, and there's like hundreds and hundreds of people and the baker is doing the thing and then the butcher is doing this and then you turn the page and there's even more people doing even more things. It sounds like one of those. And that's just the setup, okay? So now, okay, it's essential thing.

So you've got the two people, both of whom have lost their partners. Yeah, right. Fine. Yeah. No. No, we're not fine. No, not fine. No, I mean, not good, obviously.

And then the daughter who's got the hots for the kid who she's told for the boy that she's, who's the local bad boy, incidentally. Is he dead? No, he's alive and he's... He's still alive. And he's sucking a lollipop all the time. Because I think probably they want him to look like James Dean, but they don't want him to be smoking.

So he's just got a lolly. Not an iced lolly. You know, like a logg. You're like cojack. You keep wanting him to say, you know, who loves your baby. Anyway, look, it's rubbish. Obviously, it's rubber. But it's clearly rubbish with a target audience.

I mean, I did spend a portion of the film remembering how much old middle you know middle brow white men hated the twilight movies and i really liked them and i remember thinking look you know they're not for you they're for a different audience so you know be a bit open-minded about it and watch in the next box movies i mean i love the next box movies and then people would write reviews that were really really sniffy about them i go but why they're not you're looking for a different thing so i spent a lot of watching this thinking is it just me because this isn't for me clearly and I think that there must be an element of that my main problem is the sort of the the the way the film just gosses over some really queasy issues and you know

it just it solves problems immediately I mean there is one scene in it in which Morgan and Jonah both of whom are grieving technically the loss of people close to them solve the fact that they're unhappy by, and I'm not making this up, by throwing eggs at a picture they don't like. And it makes them laugh and realize that, oh, well, you know, all that death happened, but never mind,

because now we're in a different world and, you know, and let snob. And it just reminded me, I don't know whether you ever saw nine and a half weeks. You know, nine and a half weeks, the erotic thing with Mickey. I know. I think it was on television.

We're fine. There's a scene in nine and a half weeks in which Mickey Rourke, expresses his unbridled sadomasochistic lust for Kim Basinger, by throwing the contents of his fridge at her to the sound of that pop song which goes, I like bread and butter, I like toast and jam. And I remember watching that and thinking,

I'm sorry, what world are these people in? And I felt exactly the same thing whilst watching this. Sorry, what world are these people in? That this tragic thing has happened, but they've been made happy by throwing eggs at a picture that one of the people who is no longer alive liked. And, you know, it's a shame they're dead, but I never liked that picture.

I know, let's throw eggs at it. I mean, that said, there are a couple of button-pushing moments in the film that must be quite effectively done because I actually started welling up. There was a... I remember thinking, oh, for heaven's sake, you know, really? What? You know, sometimes you want to actually speak to your physical responses and go,

is that because of Jenny? Because does she come back? She hasn't gone anywhere. No, no, she has gone. She's dead. She's dead. She's dead. Sorry, she's dead. She's dead. Right. Clara's fine. Clara is the daughter, I think. Yes, Clara is the daughter. And then he's the boy, Mason, Mason, Mason Dixon. I don't know, whatever. Any. Mason Dixon. That would be an unfortunate name. He's called Mason Dixon. and he's having a ding-don with Clarabot and Jenny and Scott are gone and Morgan and Jonah

are still there I think Right Is there going to be a What's it called again? Regretting you Is there going to be a Still regretting you

Regretting you even more I think I was regretting you last time Now I'm really going to regret you But what are you going to be reviewing? next, Mark? Well, coming up next, we're going to be looking at the UK box office top 10, and then you are going to be speaking to our very special guests. Yes, Kelly Reichart, the film director, and Josh O'Connor, the actor. They have been working together. They have produced a movie. We will discuss that soon.

Hey, Mark. You know, we had Warren Ellis on the show last month. I do. It had me thinking about fabulous outfits. If I wanted to dress, like Warren. Do I really have to go all the way to Australia? Well, how about going there while never leaving showbiz North London? With NordVPN, you can surf like a local unlocking global content

with a single click in 111 countries. I could get there cybernetically while keeping my activity encrypted and now they have an app too handy for banking and sensitive data. Plus, Nord are collaborating with Marvel superheroes on a new digital comic. Info on their website. If it's

fantastic outfits you're looking for, just wait until they get a VPN for the MCU. With NordVPN, you can travel the world faster than a private jet, minus the carbon footprint, of course. Unwrap a huge discount on NordVPN by heading to NordVPN.com slash take plus. With our link, you can get an extra four months free on the two-year plan and it's risk-free with Nord's 30-day money-back guarantee. Check the link in our description. Yeah, Mark, you know what? What, Simon? I'm getting a little tired of the production. team. I mean, no offence or anything, but I wanted to brainstorm getting someone else to run the show. Well, with Indeed Sponsored Jobs, we could post and say we're looking for producers

with three years of experience editing video and audio podcasts for a knowledgeable crowd that knows a thing or two about film. And have done slightly more than just edit a TikTok while soaking in the tub. Which has its uses. Spend more time interviewing candidates who tick all your boxes. Less stress, less time, more results now with Indeed Sponsored jobs. Take listeners will get a £100-pound sponsored job credit to help get your job the premium status it deserves at Indeed.com slash kermode Mayo. Just go to indeed.com slash kermode mayo right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast.

Indeed.com slash kermode mayo. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring. Do it the right way with Indeed. Do you remember the days when we used to rearrange ferric oxide particles together? The ferric oxide particles going past a magnet at either seven and a half are ips or 15 ips. Yes. Although it was a super slow one, wasn't there? Which presumably was half of seven and a half, which must be three and three quarters or something. If you were desperate. Really? What? You just want to save tape. I think so. Okay. It's the equivalent of having a record player that played 16, had 16. 16. Which, have you ever had any 16s? I've never had any 16s. Yes. Yes. Weirdly enough, it's, they're spoken word albums because it's, you know, they think, well, it's just the sound of somebody's voice, so it doesn't matter, but there are spoken word albums. I've got, I've got a few of them because my dad had a turntable that did 1633, 45 and 78. That's, that's a hardworking stylus. It really is. You know, you had to change the stylus for the 78s. You were fine for 1633 and 45, but for the 78s you had to take the head.

head off the thing and then put a new one on. Put in a knitting needle. That's right. One of those. A fork with a paper cone on it. And that would just like... Exactly. Exactly that.

Box office top 10 at 15, Twilight Saga, the Eclipse. On the subject that we were just talking about, you know, the fact that I love the Twilight movies. And I will repeat this. I did think, whilst I was watching, regretting you, is it just me because it's not made for?

I know Twilight movies weren't made for me, but I love them. I love them. So that's 15. here nowhere in America, because they didn't bother with that kind of thing. Number 10, here, Night of the Zupocalypse. It's what you always wanted. It's Clive Barker animated for kids. I mean, it's all right. Number nine, number 11 in Canada, after the hunt. Which I absolutely hated, but I see from the script that there is an email. Yeah, an email or six.

Okay. Jenny says, despite Mark's less than positive review of After the Hunt, my love of Guadino's previous work meant I had to see for myself. I found the whole thing insipid. There was a threat of getting into the meatiness of the Me Too movement, but it lacked, a bit like Julia Roberts' character, any conviction or belief in what it was critiquing. The most interesting element was the throwaway mention of the feminist divide of the older generation who rocked the boat for a level of equality and don't want to rock it further versus younger women who haven't seen the changes in their lifetime and want to see more. Perhaps investigating this idea would give the story more bite and made it

altogether more interesting. Overall, it felt like a very shallow look at something that deserves far more than a glaze over. Tiggity-tonk and all that jazz, Jenny. This from Live, dear smug and smugger, which are my. I'm smugger, I'm sure. Are you? Yes. Okay. Medium term, you see, there's a, there's a problem that I have mentioned this before, how podcast presenters get smug. Okay. And I hope, I hope that we're not that, because I hear it in almost every, podcast, I listen to it. Anyway, but thank you for the email. Medium term listener, as I don't think I've been alive long enough to qualify for long-term listenership, first-time emailer. After a long week of PhD study, I went to see after the hunt, despite Mark's scathing review.

I nearly cancelled, but the ticket was paid for, and I'm glad I didn't. His critique lowered my expectations so effectively that I may have enjoyed it more than I otherwise would have. Yeah, that is possible. the film is deeply impressed with itself unlike saltburn which was all style after the hunt suffers from the substantive floor suffers from the substantive flaws the score was oppressive

the ticking motif irritating and the costuming so unsuttle I wanted to shout yes Julia Roberts is in black and white I get it the coda somehow made things worse the coda is awful the coda is awful its depiction of philosophy departments was absurd

More Toga Party than academia. Yes. Lazy stereotypes like these damage public perception, especially when philosophy is often first on the chopping block in commercialised universities. Also, virtue ethics is not modern. Aristotle predates Christ by 300 years. The film's critique of identity politics is clumsy and confused,

conflating academic analysis with liberal tokenism. The former examines how power interacts with identity. The latter offers symbolic gestures that are easier for institutions to adopt than real change. Mark was right, the film's critique is incoherent, but somewhere in the mess, there might have been a sharp satire worth salvaging. My very best wish is from Liv.

Well, Liv, you can write again. Thank you very much for getting involved. I think Mark will probably say amen to all of that. Amen to all of that. That was very, very eloquently expressed, and thank you very much. Number eight is Downton Abbey, the grand finale. Still doing very well and still doing again. exactly what it says in the tin. Number three in America number seven here, good fortune.

So this is Kinano Reeves as the apprentice angel who wants to, you know, get out of being, just doing text messages, he wants to change people's lives. And the thing is that he's got this poor down at heel guy who he says, you know, the issue isn't money. I'll swap your life with the rich guy. And he says, see, it's no better. And he goes, no, it is. I like this much, much better. So it's all right. I mean, it's disposable. Nonsense. Ben-O on our YouTube channel, Roofman is one of the best films of the year. Feels like a throwback to 70s filmmaking of sorts in its straightforward and emotionally honest central narrative. Thinking of things like the Sugarland Express and Thunderbolt and Lightfoot.

Finds a unique balance between the drama and comedy and ultimately succeeds because of the chemistry between Channing Tatum and Kirsten Dunst. Brilliant filmmaking and perhaps accidentally might even be Cian France's finest work to date. Just a small nitpick Derek Cian France did not direct. Sound of Metal, he did co-write the story. Oh, sorry, sorry, sorry, yeah. And executive, producer was Darius Marda. Anyway, that's Roof Man at number six. Number five, one

battle after another, number four in America. Which I really like, I think, is one of the films of the year. I think it's thrillingly exciting. And, yeah, love it. Number four, here, number two, in America, Tron Aries. I swear is it number three here. Which I really like. I'm really, really glad it's doing so well.

It's terrific. It's really, really good. Really, really terrific. Blackphone, two, is a new entry at number two in America is the number one movie. And I've just looked this up because when I was talking about him in Regretting You, I said Mason Thames, which is how it's spelled, but apparently Thames, apparently Mason Thames. Also, Colleen Hoover, not Colleen Hoover, but the film's still all over the place. Blackphone 2 is all right, but it's not great. Peter Benassie says, I had some hope.

Scott Derrickson is the man who traumatised me with Sinister in 2012. but this sequel slash prequel hybrid wants to have its cake and eat it, leaning heavily into retro horror aesthetics. The shining Friday the 13th, especially Nightmare on Elm Street, all loom large. The film's themes vengeful souls and fear as fuel are familiar, and the final acts direction is obvious early on. Derrickson's fondness for grainy flashback footage, once chilling in sinister, now feels tired and shoehorned in.

It's a real curate egg, a clunky exposition dump, Some laugh-out-loud moments, intentional and not. But also strong character work, unsettling sound design, and a couple of decent scares. Unfortunately, the villain, the grabber, loses menace as the film progresses, and the ending lands on an oddly poignant note. Ultimately, it's over-long, unnecessary, and not very scary. Whilst there are flashes of Derrickson's talent, Blackphone 2 feels like a franchise stretching itself thin,

if a third instalment comes calling, I doubt I'll pick up. Time to cut the chord, Scott, says Peter. Yeah, I agree. Number one in the UK, number seven over there, is Gabby's Doll House, The Movie. Okay, so some correspondence here. Dear Cat Rat and Megat, long-time listener, second-time emailer, I last wrote in January about a censored Nosferatu screening in Qatar, no 65-year-old buttocks and no ending.

I mean, that's two ways of saying the same thing, really. I'm a lifelong horror fan, a regular at London Fright Fest, and heading to Abattoir in Wales this November. as in Abba and Entoine, yeah. This morning I took my six-year-old daughter who loves the TV show to see Gabby's dollhouse. It started at 10 a.m., but we left barely 20 minutes in. She got scared when Vera, with some serious Cruella vibes, appeared.

Yes. And asked to go. I checked that she was sure, and then we skedaddled. We've had mixed cinema success. Moana 2 and Dogman were wins. Minecraft and migration, not so much. Super Mario Brothers was a triumph. She's a sensitive soul like her mum,

and while she copes better at home where she can hide during scary bits, the cinema overwhelms her, even with ear defenders. Any tips on helping her manage mild peril in light-hearted films? I'd love to gently guide her toward being a happy, horror-loving adult.

Hello to Jason, yours desperately, Steve in North Finchley. I haven't seen the film. Mark has, he will comment just a second. I would only say, as someone who went with child three to see so many films and then walk out, including finding Nemo, because it was too loud and too sad. That was like after literally five minutes. I think the key thing, Steve, is she copes better at home. The cinema is what's causing the trouble. And cinemas in general have things

too loud and it's too dark. So I would suggest that if she has a problem, don't, don't, you know, unless you know it's going to be great, maybe having seen it yourself first, which I did do a couple, of times. I think the cinema is the problem. And sometimes cinemas do arrange special screenings where they leave the lights on and the volume is lower. So maybe you could look out for that. Yes. Maybe you have a cinema near you that does that. Yeah. I mean, I think that's absolutely right. The thing about absolutely don't force it. And the thing about there are screenings that they do in which they do lower light, lower, lower sound volume. They keep some of the lighting up in the, in the screen. I mean, the cinemas call those screenings different things. Some of them call them

calmer screenings, but a lot of cinemas do it. But it's a perfectly natural reaction. And if somebody's not ready for that experience, then just, you know, just wait until they are. I absolutely agree, don't force it. If somebody's had enough leave, that's the way to do it. But that's a, that's a number one film, Gabby's Doll House, the movie. Yeah, absolutely. The essence, the, and your essence of that, was, if you haven't seen the TV show, then are you going to struggle? As I said, when I was watching it, I was just like, I've got no idea about any of this, but clearly it was playing to, I mean, I have a friend who took their young kids to see it,

and they absolutely loved it. And there's a bit when the Lee character turns to the audience and says, okay, will you sing it with me? Shall we sing the song? And it's the, you know, the pinch on the left, the pinch on the right, and blah, l-l-l-l-l-l-l-l-l-lum. And they said, yeah, the whole cinema did it. fine. So it's, as I said, when I was reviewing it, for the adults, you've got the sort of, you know,

there is the Cruel de Ville character and that's fine. But for the rest of it, it's absolutely for the younger cinema-going audience. And that's who it's designed for. And I had no idea what was going on. Great. And a new generation goes to the cinema and thinks, hey, this is good. This is better than being at home. But Steve, don't, you know, don't force it. And otherwise, it may well be that. Correspondence at covenomero.com. But the UK moral number one.

This is a new, this is a slightly new interpretation of the box office. So the moral number one is Frankenstein. It is. And the reason this isn't

in the charts is that Netflix don't allow box office figures to be returned. So we don't know what the box office figures are.

Also because, you know, the way that Netflix works, the releases are, they essentially really want people to see the film on streaming, although Guillemadale Toro obviously would love you to see it in the cinema. And I thought it was great. I thought it was a

really, you know, brilliant take on a classic text that Guillermo Del Toro has circled for most of his career. I mean, I first met Guillermo in the 90s when he was doing Kronos and he was talking about Frankenstein then. So I'm just really glad that he's finally done it and that he's as good as it is. Vickster on our YouTube, I thought it was excellent, a really moving exploration of what makes us human. Mia Goth is great, but it was Jacob Lordy who really impressed me as the creature. The visuals, sets, use of colour and light and the de plaid. Do you say Desplat?

Desplat. Desplat. Because I would have thought the French... No, he used to Alexander Desplat. Are all superb. Definitely. See it at the cinema, if you can. Limited release, obviously, and then Netflix from November the 7th

for Frankenstein, the moral number one. We're going to be back very shortly. Well, I might as well just say, Kelly Reichart, the director, Josh O'Connor, the movie star, talking about the new film The Mastermind in just a moment. October really brings it all, doesn't it?

Halloween parties, game day tailgates, those perfect crisp fall nights, and total wine and more is here for every single one. Whether you're inviting friends over for a spooky movie marathon or just savoring the cool fall air on your patio. You'll find exactly what you need. Thousands of wines, spirits and beers, all at the lowest prices. Mixing up something spooky?

Total Wine and More is your cocktail central for all your Halloween concoctions. Need help picking the perfect pumpkin spice liqueur or figuring out what pairs best with chili night? Their friendly guys have you covered. With the lowest prices for over 30 years, you'll always find what you love and love what you find only at Total Wine and More. curbside pickup and delivery available in most areas. Just check out totalwine.com for details.

Spear is not sold in Virginia and North Carolina. Drink responsibly, B-21. This episode is brought to you by Peloton. A new era of fitness is here. Introducing the new Peloton Cross Training Tread Plus, powered by Peloton IQ, built for breakthroughs with personalized workout plans, real-time insights, and endless ways to move.

Lift with confidence, while Peloton IQ counts reps, corrects form and tracks your progress. Let yourself run, lift, flow and go. Explore the new Peloton Cross-training Treadplus at OnePeloton.C.A. Okay, so this week's guest are Josh O'Connor and Kelly Reichard. Josh, a friend of the show,

obviously all around good chat, wonderful actor, last came on for Lacimera. Kelly Rykart, best known for her slow-moving dramas and thrillers set in the American Northwest, notably Oregon, first cow, which we discuss with Toby Jones, mixed cutoff, night moves, that kind of thing. They've collaborated on a heist film called The Mastermind. Josh plays James Blaine Mooney, more about the story and film in our chat,

which you will hear after this clip from the film. It seems inconceivable to me that these abstract paintings would be worth of trouble. I'm not entirely convinced I thought this through. James and I were just there. Tommy, elbows off the table. What a horrible thing for those young girls. Are you kidding? It's probably the most exciting thing that's ever happened to them. They'll be talking about it for the rest of their lives. Of course.

There are dark markets. I suppose one could buy any kind of commodity there. And that is a clip from The Mastermind, Josh O'Connor, Kelly Rykart. Welcome to the podcast. How are you both? Good. How are you, son? Yeah, I'm good. Nice to you again, Josh. I see you again, Josh. I need to talk about your wardrobe, by the way.

In the film, not what you're wearing. Kelly, it's your film, you're the director. Introduce us to the Mastermind. I'm not really a good nutshell person, but. It's your film, though. It is, well, it's a collective that made the film. And we are in Framingham, Massachusetts, in a small industrial town with James Mooney, played by Josh O'Connor, and his middle-class family.

His father's a judge. And Mooney's like a woodworker with some talent, but who's kind of a little bit too lazy to pursue his craft and comes up with an idea of stealing some arthroids. dove paintings from the local Framingham Art Museum, dot, dot, dot, and the rest unfolds from that. That's like the first 15 minutes. And then comes the Great Unrevelling. So, Josh, introduce us then to J.B. J.B. Mooney is a father of two boys, married to Terry, played by Alonaheim.

And, well, he's a carpenter, really, but I think he had ideas of. of being an artist, I would say, and maybe they haven't quite gone his way. And he's just got a great idea, Simon. And so he brings his boys in, and the idea is to carry out this heist at the Framingham Art Museum. And it's a brilliant idea, it's just that things go.

Yeah, so you'd say the title is sort of ironic. For sure. The mastermind brackets, you've gotta be kidding. Close brackets. So the opening shot of the movie, I'll just come back from Holiday, I've been to a lot of art galleries and museums, you have a pose, which is exactly the right pose

for someone looking at art and thinking, well, not quite sure about this, because I've adopted that pose a lot over the last few days. Why is it the early 1970s, Kelly? Why did you set it there? It's 1970. It's the fall of 1970. 1970, I like to be in the hangover of the 60s,

kind of in the, well, that didn't work, murkiness. countries super polarized on the brink of a new decade. It's the year the war, Vietnam War, we bomb U.S. bombs Cambodia and expands the war while talking openly about ending the war. There's the infamous Ken State shooting of students by the National Guard. And so it also, just as far as Josh's character's concerned,

it puts him where the draft is still really active, but he's old enough to be with two kids and also with a judge father who could probably finagle something. So the draft isn't really his concern, where it might be more the guys from high school or his neighborhood that he's working with in his heist might be more of a concern for them. And so it allows him to sort of breeze through

with the sort of situation that the country's in or the world's in kind of at the peripheral of his vision and not his main concern. So the Vietnam War is on. We hear about it in the background. There are kind of news clips, but it's not about that. No.

I find that in 1970s very interesting because it feels like a pivot. It feels like the end of the 60. I mean, it's a bit, I know decades don't divide that neatly. Yeah, they don't. It does feel like the end of the beginning is something else. Yeah, 68 seems like an end of something in America. And Nixon's in power, which, you know,

I mean, it's interesting because when we made the film, We actually shot in Ohio where Kent State is. And as we speak, the National Guard is going into Chicago and trying to go into Portland where I live. So it's kind of crazy. Portland, Oregon, full of the dancing frogs. The war of dancing frogs, a hellscape, as it were, apparently. Yes.

On the movie, Josh, I've read a lot of people say, you know, it's an art heist film, which kind of puts it in one place that it doesn't really, it shouldn't really be. It kind of starts in that territory, but then we move somewhat. It is like an aftermath and unraveling. What is it about your character that means that the whole thing is going to hell in a handcart? I mean, what is it that he does wrong?

Well, I think his blind spot is his privilege that he, you know, I think he comes from a background where everything's okay, and Mummy is willing to sort of cover his back financially. And, you know, and ultimately, kind of you can narrow it down to someone who has, this is my opinion, but I don't know what Kelly thinks. Sort of low self-esteem big ego. I think he thinks he's... It's always a problem.

Always a problem. But I think he sort of thinks he deserves more than he's got. You know, he deserved a better hand. And this is his... He's got a pretty good hand. Well, he's got a great hand, but this is where the big ego comes in. I think he's like, you know, this idea of grandeur. And his blind spot being, you know, to carry this art heist, things might go wrong.

But he never kind of takes into a... But I think of that into a camera. But I think of... him is sort of rebelling against his privilege while at the same time willing to lean into it whenever it's convenient. And there is this, in the country, there's a rebellion going on against this middle-class suburban life. But the alternative to it so far has just been sort of chaotic and not really, sorry,

I didn't mean to step on your answer. There's a Maggie Gillenhall quote, which I want to put to both of you, because I think It's an interesting, she's talking about a new film that she's working on, and she came on the show a couple of years ago, and she said, women make films differently from men. Kelly, is that true? I just can't think of things in those terms.

I mean, it's a bunch of individuals. I mean, they make films differently only because, you know, they don't walk on a set and be considered a genius the minute they show up. But other than that, I don't know, looking at filmmakers and categories of gender, their race constantly gets a little tiring. Annoying.

I apologize for the annoying question. But last time Joshua was on the show, you were talking about Alice Rawlbacher. Oh yeah. She too is a woman. She is. By the way, the suit, there's a similarity between the character

that you play in Lacamera, because you always wear that suit, and I think I asked you whether you took it home. You've got the worst boxers in this film, the worst underpants I have ever seen in a movie. I hope you didn't take them home. So maybe, maybe you're, You don't want this question either, but do you agree with Kelly that Maggie's statement is not really...

Oh, like, completely. I mean, from my perspective, I just see that Kelly was one of my favorite filmmakers. And why is that? Well, I've been a big fan of her films, you know, that they're my kind of movies. And Alicia's your second. And Alita is my second favorite filmmaker, yeah. That's what you're going to say. That's what I was going to say.

Yeah, I just, they're brilliant filmmakers. They're both friends. And I think beyond that, I don't think much further than that, really. I mean, do you ever look at, have you ever asked a man that question of if they feel like they're a male director? I'd probably ask versions of it. It was just a Maggie Gillen Hall quote because that's what she said. She's not speaking for all the women. No.

No, of course. Well, here's a quote from you then. Uh-oh, of course. Quote from Kelly Ryckard. Give it to Maggie. Give my quote to Maggie. What actors do remains very mysterious to me. I try and stay out of their way. So maybe I should put that to Josh then.

Is that your experience of working on a Kelly movie? Well, yeah, insofar as I think, I mean, I would argue that a lot of what you create, you know, in terms of the character is guided by the writing and Kelly's vision. But yeah, insofar as, you know, we were just talking about a sequence in the film and looking back at some of those sequences that there is an element of like, okay, well, how would your character do this? And then allowing that to kind of build around a scene. Some of that is directed by the fact that the certain geography of where we are, of a location.

But mostly it is down to the script, and that comes from Kelly's mind. I mean, if you, well, no, I say if you trust, I think it goes both. Like if an actor trusts you and you trust the actor, then you get out of the way. and see just what they're going to bring that's not been what you've, you know, something's going to appear that it's not what you've envisioned. It's in a different body with a different voice and different mannerisms. Sometimes how I pictured things that have some humor and it would fall in a different place than where Josh would find it and that would be surprising and that's what's great about it.

Like I don't want to go on record as saying I would give every, every actor that I ever work with, you know, because some people have a whole different idea or get insecure about focusing on the small, the minutia or small moments. But if someone's trusting in that, an actor, then it's, I do find it mysterious. Like, I don't really completely understand the process of how someone comes about using their intuition to follow the path of someone, a character, you know, so I don't want to muck it up. and be in the way of it. When it played at Cannes, you've got a five and a half minute standing ovation.

What does it like to have a standing ovation? What do you do with yourself when people are applauding you for five minutes? It is deeply uncomfortable. Yeah, you're waiting for it to be over. To be over, yeah. Honestly, across from us was Aliche, who I hadn't seen for a long time and who I was just so happy to see I really wanted to get to her. and I don't know, it's an odd...

Are you going kind of, okay, enough already? Yeah, you're just kind of wading it out. They don't let you kind of... Yeah, what would you say? Well, I was going to say that you are. But I've learned or I've been told. Yeah. And this is why it's such a bizarre tradition

because this shouldn't be a gauge on a success or failure of a film. But the day after can, once a film... The day after your film screens, when the reviews come out, the first thing they comment on is how long the standing evasion was. And it's a weird sort of like currency for the success.

You only got five and a half. We had seven. Well, exactly. It does go like that. And you only get half five and a half because Kelly and I are so awkward. They're like, please sit down. And so then you've got other people going, no, don't tell them that. Yeah.

It's bizarre. But it's probably better than being booed at for five minutes. That's 100% in the case. Yeah. Our film reviewer on this podcast, which Josh knows because he's come on the show, is Mark Kermode. And when you say to Mark, are you happy? If we're just if we're about to start doing something, he will say, I haven't been happy. since Nixon resigned. That's his standard line. So I'm asking, with that knowledge,

what was your first political memory, Kelly? Nixon resigning. Yeah, I was in the swimming pool, and we had to get out of the pool. Me and my friends, I was about eight, and we had to watch Nixon resign. And all I really know is that you were watching an adult get in trouble, and that felt like, it felt embarrassing, like for an adult to watch an adult get in trouble. But that was my first political memory. And my last moment of feeling any joy. Okay, so that was a little thing for Mark.

What is your next project, Kelly, or do you not want to think about that? Yeah, everything, you've got to live with something for a while before you talk about it, I think. I don't know. Josh, you are the man at the moment. What is it like to get a text saying Stephen Spielberg wants to. see you imagine being asked that right now yeah yeah i know and then going to see him uh i'm not to ask you about the movie because i know you wouldn't tell me anything no um that must blow your mind i mean because he's not a woman and man what is it like this man to text you know what it's

it must be wow it was like yeah i mean i i would say i would argue that i fainted well i could have done i i should the truth is i i feel like every there are moments in your career that I've made it hard for you, sorry. You have, yeah. No, it's amazing. I mean, I think, honestly, there are so many things that I definitely don't take for granted. And one of them is working with people like Kelly. Well, yeah, that.

But, you know, working with Kelly and Elyche. But, yeah, for sure. Like, Stephen is a brilliant filmmaker that I, you know, loved his films growing up. And to go and meet him was very cool. but likewise you know actually just up the street from where i met stephen was where Kelly and i shared my first ever lobster role when we first started talking about the movie so nicely yeah yeah uh Josh Kelly thank you very much thank you thanks for your time thanks thank you well um I so having as I think was noticeable from that conversation

she doesn't like the Maggie Gyllenha Hall quote and I interrogated myself and with producer Heather afterwards thinking was that an unfair question and actually my conclusion I don't know what you think I think it was a perfectly fair and decent question were you were quoting something that Maggie Gillenhall said yes and we like Maggie and she makes good films

and she just said that it'd been in the paper over the weekend so it seemed something but it clearly riled her hence her spoiling the Stephen Spielberg question at the end, which I think he were going to get an interesting answer. I'd also like to point out that when you said our film reviewer, Mark, when you ask him if he's happy, he said, I haven't been happy since Nixon resigned. Now, clearly, Kelly Reichler wouldn't know me from a hole in the ground.

And when you say that out of context, it sounds like I was unhappy that Nixon resign. So just to be absolutely clear about that point, it's a joke about it's a joke about feeling happy because Nixon resigned, but I'm sure by that point, she thought, he's asking me about women filmmakers and his filmmaker is a Nick, and his film critic is a Nixon supporter. Anyway, so, yeah, so I was, I was kind of frustrated with, you know, with the conversation.

Josh was clearly picking up on, you know, on the vibe. And, you know, it was better that they were both together, for sure. Kelly's... In fact, she says right at the very beginning I'm not very good at summarising my films, which is an odd thing to say when it's your film. But anyway, let's talk about the mastermind and an art heist, which happens in daylight.

Art heist, which does... But not in France. Art heist does sound like how royalty describe art house, isn't it? It's an art heist movie. Yes, that's very... Except that it isn't, of course. But anyway, take it away. So, yeah, so as you said,

later from Kelly Reichard, who's sort of, you know, leading light of US indie cinema, person behind Mix Cut Off, First Cow, which Toby was so brilliant. And Night Moves, actually, I mean, you mentioned Night Moves. Night Moves is significant in terms of the connection with this movie because Night Moves is a heist movie and this is a heist movie. So in the case of Night Moves, the setup is a bunch of Eco Warriors

who are planning to blow up a dam. But what the film is really about is their interpersonal thought. and how everything falls apart in the wake of the heist. And in the case of this film, in the case of the mastermind, Josh O'Connor, as we heard there, is J.B. Mooney, who's a carpenter, 1970, Massachusetts. He's from a middle-class family. He's, you know, his father is a judge. He gets bailed out by his parents.

And he's decided that an easy way to make money would be to knock over this local art museum. I mean, it's also implied that he wanted to be. been artist, but he fell because he's kind of lazy. And you think it's going to be a movie about, you know, planning the job, how he does it, all the setup and this car goes there and this car goes there. But it really isn't, because the job basically consists of you go in and just pick up the paintings and I'll just wait outside. What it's actually about is how cack handy the job is and what happens in the wake of it. So in both cases, the heist is really just a device that allows the filmmaker to explore the foible,

of the people attempting to pull off the heist. In the case of night moves, it's a group of people. In the case of the mastermind, it is just the one person. It's this flawed individual who, as you quite rightly say, the title is ironic because he is anything but a mastermind

and whose life, what was the phrase you used, the great unraveling, I think it was a brilliant way of describing what the book. Yeah, that's kind of what happens in the rest of the film. But that's it. I mean, in a way, rather than the mastermind, the film could be called the Great Unravelling. because what you then do is you watch his life fall apart because he has been reckless and lazy and entitled

in a way that kind of made him think that he could get away with it. And it was interesting that, you know, Josh O'Connor said that he's got this privilege that he doesn't sort of really acknowledge, but he does think that the world kind of owes him a living. And he leaves behind him this trail of disaster, you know, accomplices who are imprisoned and, you know, abandoned partners and abandoned children and broken homes. And actually, as the drama goes on, his behavior becomes more and more reprehensible. I mean, there's a scene later on in which he does something, which is really genuinely

unspeakably unpleasant. And so he's not sympathetic. What he is is kind of interesting because the film is like a study of a privileged waste role who can't see beyond their own problems whilst ignoring the plight of everyone around it, whilst ignoring the kind of the chaos. And actually, I think one of the reasons that Josh O'Connor is great in this role is that Josh O'Connor has got a very good way

of portraying, you know, that kind of... I mean, you made the comparison with the film that he made with Alecich Rolva in the, you know, he's wearing this bedraggled suit. He is very good at playing characters. I mean, he's very good at playing a lot of different things, but he's very good at playing characters who are sort of careless,

who sort of seem to shamble into the situations. And that's what he does here, because the character doesn't say very much, doesn't actually do very much, but he just sort of blunders around, messing everything up. And I think it's kind of interesting that the sort of the theme of it is how everyone in the wake of him

is just left dealing with the mess that he's made. But there's also this thing going on in the background about the period setting. I mean, you know, you quite rightly focused in on this in the interview, that, you know, it's set in 1970. It's a period piece. You know, the 60s are finished. They've come to a sort of crashing hot.

I mean, I think the 60s finish are ultimately. But, you know, that's that. There's wars raging. There is a corrupt president in power. The National Guard are being sent in to shoot at Americans. Now, clearly, that's a period setting, but clearly it's horribly relevant to today. But the bigger point is that there is a really blackly comedic joke toward the end of the film about what happens when his path finally crosses with that of the people who are actually dealing with what's going on. Because

toward the end of the movie, he sort of finds himself in the midst of a protest. And it's the first time, it's as if this privileged life that he's been leading while all this other stuff has been going on. As they say, I mean, the draft is happening, but he's not going to get drafted. You know, he's not going to get drafted. If all, you know, private bone spurs can get off because his dad can write him a letter or his doctor can say, oh, yeah, he's got a foot complaint, then there's no way that Josh O'Connor's character, whose father is a judge, he's going to get drafted.

But when his path actually crosses with the protesters, that's kind of like the first time he's noticed anything else is going on in the world. So, I mean, I think that all those things are happening in the film, and I think they're embodied in Josh O'Connor's sort of brilliantly feckless, careless and affectless performance. So I like the film very much and I do think it can, I'd say to anybody, if you watch it and you like it,

check out night moves, because night moves did get largely overlooked. It was a film that was kind of, I mean, we did a thing about it in the, in the heist movie episode of Secrets of Cinema because it's a kind of, it's a kind of anti-heist film where the heist isn't the point. The point is everything after that.

And I think that applies here too. And I do think on the subject of the Maggie Gyllenhaal question, it's a perfectly legitimate question. Yeah, because I've thought about it, and hearing it again was like twice as painful. But the answer to a question, would you ask that to a man? Well, if, say, Paul Thomas Anderson had said, men make films differently to women,

and that was the quote, I would absolutely quote that back at the next male director who comes along, because there you go, is an established filmmaker who says this, what do you think? So anyway, a small release, do you think? Well, I mean, it's, you know, it's small in as much as it's not, it's not tron arse. But it is going to be in cinemas and, you know, you will be able to find it. Correspondence at codemoe.com.

It's the ads in a minute. But first, with a sense of cheerfulness and gay abandon. Like Josh O'Connor. Like Josh O'Connor in the mastermind. Exactly. We step into the laughter lift. Here we go. Hey. Hey. Hey. Mark, fun word fact. Go on. Did you know if you spell absolutely nothing backwards, you get Gniton Yeletsuboa.

What? Which means absolutely nothing. So there go that. Oh, I see. I see. I like to support my local library, as I'm sure you do. I walked into our local one yesterday, the Showbiz North London Library, and asked for that book on Pavlov's dogs and Schrodinger's cat. Well, it rings a bell, but I'm not sure if it's here or not, said the librarian. That's good. That is actually good.

That's actually good. It's not laugh out loud, is it? I'm laughing inside. It's quite good. I'm just still laughing inside about you. But you're still being cross about that. Anyway, after that, I went into the bank on the High Street, the Showbiz Bank of North London.

in the queue, a dear little old lady clutching a printout said, excuse me, young man, my senses aren't what they used to be. Can you check my balance for me? So I gave her the tiniest little shove and over she went. I'm very glad you did the Dick Emery,

old lady voice. Well done. I shouted after her. Your balance is not so great, Doris. Take care in future. Anyway, she was gone by then. Anyway, Dick Emery, ask you parents. What's coming in? up as far as you're concerned. Next, it's the review of Springsteen.

Is it deliver me from nowhere or deliver us from nowhere? Deliver me from nowhere. Yes. Okay, well we'll be back in just a moment. With Amex Platinum, access to exclusive Amex pre-sale tickets can score you a spot trackside. So being a fan for life turns into the trip of a lifetime. That's the powerful backing of Amex. Pre-sale tickets for future events, subject. to availability and vary by race. Turns and conditions apply.

Learn more at amex.ca. slash Y Annex. It's the matcha or the three ensemble Cado Cephora of FET that I've been to denischee who energize o'clock? Mm, it's all right. The form of small.

And then the embellage, too beau, who is practically pre to donate. And I know that I'd I'd like the Summer Fridays and Rare Beauty by Selena Gomez. I'm, I'm just come from. The most ensembles'

The Codes'Cadowdo of Feds Cephora. Summer Fridays, Rare Beauty, Way, Cipora Collection, and other part of Vote, procure you these formats, standard and mini, regrouped for a better quality of price. In line on SIFARA.com or in magazine. Okay, so before we discuss Springsteen deliver me from nowhere,

we have this rather delightful What's On. Hello, Simon and Mark. My name's Simon Brew from Film Stories. The main reason I'm recording this is I want to submit myself to Simon Mayo's critique of my broadestown. casting quality. But as a quiet subtext, if there's time, can I please plug Film Stories 500? My podcast, the Film Stories Podcast, has been telling the stories and movies for seven and a half years now. And I'm celebrating episode 500 with a live show in London on Thursday

the 27th of November, 2025. I'm going to have a very special guest and absolutely money can buy prizes will be awarded to 730, 27th of November, Kingsplace.com. Co. UK is where you'll find tickets. Okay, well, first of all, that's very interesting. Simon, congratulations on the 500. I hope the live event is very good. My critique of your mic style is, of course, good quality mic, good presentation.

I think it was one dodgy edit in there, maybe, but overall, overall, very good, and always nice to hear from you. I love the phrase money can buy prizes. So if you have a warts on, anything kind of cinema-related, can be a little festival, could be just a little screening that you've arranged,

just something you want to advertise, send it as a voice note, paying careful attention to presentation, styles, and audio quality, or just send it in and we'll tidy it up. Correspondence at coda mayor.com. Okay, let's talk about the Bruceville. Yes, so Springsteen delivered me from nowhere,

and I'm really keen to talk to you about this because you, of course, are a huge Bruce fan, and I know that in your other occupation, you interviewed the lead actor in this film. So, Jeremy Allen White and Stephen Graham, yes. So you are, so this is the new film from Scott Cooper who made out of the furnace, which I really liked, hostiles, which are really like the only film I've ever come across

that features a Yeaba Har on the soundtrack. And Crazy Heart, in which a Yeaba Har. A what? It's an instrument that looks like a bedstead, but sounds like a synthesizer. And it was invented by a guy called, um no i can't remember his name anyway there was only ever one of them and uh gorkman's anyway i wrote about it in my book which is currently available in all good bookstores anyway and crazy heart for which jeff bridges if i remember correctly won an oscar playing an adult country music

star so this new film springsteen delivered me from nowhere has been described as a musical biographical drama about bruce springsteen although like a complete unknown from last year that was last year, wasn't it? Complete Unknown. It was last year. Anyway, the Bob Dylan film. It's about a very specific period in the life of a rock star. This is based on a book by Warren Zanes. Have you read the book that this film is based on? I have not. No. No. So a complete unknown was basically Dylan goes electric. This is Springsteen goes acoustic. And during the course of going acoustic, he has something akin to a kind of breakdown. So we meet Jeremy Allen White. He's on stage. doing Born to Run. And I have to say the first time you see him, you go, wow, that is a really,

really good Springsteen. He's got everything. The stance, the shoulders, the weird way that Bruce does the shoulders, the squat, that way he kind of slightly crouches, the voice, even the set of his jaw, because Bruce Springsteen has got this very distinctive, I think, is it like his bottom? And even the set of his jaw, when you go, that's an amazing. That's an amazing. Amazingly good Bruce Springsteen. So he's had a huge hit with the river. He's toured the world. Now he's gone back home to New Jersey.

And he's feeling lost. So one night on TV, he bumps into Terrence Malick's Badlands, which is a film I imagine everybody kind of knows, but it's like a Killers on the Run film inspired by the real life case of Charles Starkweather. And he starts to write a song called Starke. which then leads him to write more stuff that he starts to record at home in his rental home on this Tascam cassette porter studio and he starts to find something that's leading him into a different area. Here is a clip from the trailer. It feels different coming home. There's a real

emptiness. I think Bruce is afraid of what's coming and he feels guilty leaving behind. the world he knows. It's like I'm always running away from something. Like the past is breathing down my neck. I don't have to tell you. We got to head out of the park with the next record, Bruce Springsteen. It's on a rocket ship. We don't want to miss that window. We label once you have your first top ten, they're just thinking about momentum.

I'm trying to find something real. These nuisance, they're different, but they're the only thing can sense to me right now. The only day I can still believe it. Then we'll get it, whatever it takes. So the writing and recording at home takes him back into his past, to his childhood with his mother and his father, played by Stephen Graham, who he spoke to in your other life. Paul Walter Hauser is the engineer who basically turns up and says, well, look, you know,

I'm not really, I don't know about this stuff. I'm, you know, I can just help me with this home recording. He says, yeah, no, that is exactly what I want. I want somebody who isn't. He's great, isn't he? And Paul, I mean, we've interviewed Paul Walter Hauser on this program. Yes, he's absolutely terrific. Gabby Hoffman is the mother who he has these kind of very, very warm memories of.

And then from that clip, you heard Jeremy Strong, who is the producer and manager, manager crucially, John Landau, who is a stalwart supporter, despite the fact that whenever you see Jeremy Strong playing a role, you think. Okay, well, the last time I saw him, he was being Roy Cohn and the apprentice, and before that, he was the guy in succession. So I imagine he's going to turn out to be absolutely up to no good at all. But he's the opposite. He is the person who absolutely believes in, you know, in Bruce's talent. And he's the person who is going to, you know, to stand by him. Meanwhile, Odessa Young, who was brilliant in Mothering Sunday, I spent the whole film thinking, why do I know Odessa Young's face so well? Of course she was the lead in Mothering Sunday, which I loved,

is this single mom waitress who he starts to have a relationship with, but who seems in the film to kind of embody this idealized version of the hometown that he's gone back to and that he's sort of lost contact with. Now, I was never, as you know, a Springsteen fan. In fact, the first Springsteen album that I got, was Nebraska. And the reason I got it was because my very good friend, Duncan Cooper, who's a real sort of music fan, he said to me, look, I know that you don't like Born to Run, which I thought was kind of, you know, big and silly, although I now do like Born to Run. I didn't like the river

at all. I just thought it was just, you know, huffing and puffing. And then I remember Duncan Cooper saying to me, this is very different. This is very, very different. You should listen to this. I remember listening to it and actually thinking that's a really good album. What I didn't know was that born in the USA, which came after which I didn't like at all and had dancing in the dark and, you know, born in the USA, those big hits. I didn't understand the relationship between Nebraska and born in the USA. I didn't understand that the songs came out of this same period.

I didn't know any of that stuff. I just knew that there was this album, Nebraska, which I was told was very different to Bruce's other stuff. Now, I should say that since then, I have moved a long way in my journey with Bruce Springsteen and I'm now much more open to his charms. I was just, you know, I was a narky teenager who liked television and I didn't, you know, television the band, not television, the thing.

So the story of making Nebraska really is interesting. And this telling of it impressed me because I hadn't realized how much those albums are tied together. I think of them as chalk and cheese. In fact, actually, I think what the film shows you is that they're bread and butter. I mean, you know, so Jeremy Allen White's, performance in the film is, I mean, it is jaw-droppingly good. I know everybody talked about Timothy Shalame being very, very good as Bob Dylan. But from the first moment you see it,

but you think, okay, that's great. And in the tradition of, you know, Gary Boosie in the Buddy Holly story or Wacking Phoenix in Walk the Line and Timothy Shalame in Complete Unknown, you do believe that what you're watching is a character who's speaking voice and singing voice and playing voice. They're all part of the same continuum, which is really, really important. it's also it's quite a stretch to dramatize somebody sitting at home listening to suicide on hard repeat or as poor was the house I said I wouldn't listen to that over and over again and then making recordings on a cassette home studio now I should point out I actually had one of those home studios I had the portable the smaller version he's got the big professional one but I bought one in must be 1980 I mean it costs something something like 400 pounds. And I, you know, I worked a Saturday job for ages to get it because it was one of the first things in which you could record at home. I mean, it hissed like nobody's

business. I mean, it had these, it had noise reduction on it, but it was, you know, it was really hissy, but it was great. And there was a whole bunch of people who made stuff at home. Now, Bruce Springsteen was doing this way before we were doing it. And I'm not suggesting that any of us, Herbert, sitting at home with our tiny little, you know, TAC, TASCAMs were Bruce Springsteen was. Springsteen, but that technology did then become very, very liberating. But the idea of making a film about somebody sitting at home fiddling around with a porter studio, it seems really un-cinematic. However, I think the film is cinematic. I mean, not least because it's got so much cinema in it. On the one hand, you've got the whole thing about Badlands. You've also got

Knight of the Hunter. There's a scene in which he remembers his dad taking him to the movie. is to see Night of the Hunter and it's him watching that film and you can see this kind of revelations playing out on his face. So I think that the brave thing about the film is that it's doing something which is essentially quite nerdy.

It's, you know, it's a film that is about... I mean, there's a whole section on it about how can they take the distortion off the cassette and they actually get him going to the mastering plant where the guy's saying, well, I can make the grooves less deep, but then I'll have to manually separate them. And if you've never watched it. I loved all that.

Of course you did, and of course I did. The question is whether anybody else will. So my feeling about it was, as somebody who isn't a Bruce fan, I can say categorically, this is not just a film for fans, because I'm not a Bruce fan. I do actually like his work now, but I'm not a fan, but I really enjoyed the movie. It is, however, a film for no...

film for, you know, people are interested in the nerdier aspects of music. And you said a really interesting thing. After you saw it, you said, it's not a rock biopic. It's a film about depression. It's a film about how somebody negotiates their internal turmoil through the creative process. And I think that that's remarkable to make a film about somebody dealing with their own inner demons by fiddling around with a Tascan Porter studio in a rental home and make that dramatically engaging,

I was really engaged by it. I just wonder how wide that appeal is. Tell me what you thought as a Springsteen fan. I mean, I really enjoyed it. I entirely agree Jeremy Allen White is the first, so the first Bruce you see is him as a child. And then the first time that you see him, he is playing Born to Run with the band.

They filmed that in New Jersey. the place is full of Bruce fans apparently he was introduced at that by Bruce on stage but but the but as soon as you see him stand like that

you know oh of course I haven't really thought how does Bruce stand well he stands the way Jeremy Allen White has got him you know it the way he's he's got everything absolutely the shoulders right shoulders yes that only gets you

that only gets you so far I thought the tone of the film is like the Nebraska album. That's what it is. It's a movie which has the Nebraska album running all the way through it. So it's very low key. It's very kind of low tech. And I love the scene where he's in the studio with the band and they're singing, born in the USA. And Jeremy Strong is John Landau and all the engineers are going, this is great. We've got a hit. This is fantastic. And

they're really saying, no, not that. We're not going to do that. And I get the whole radio pressure and the interview that I do with Jeremy and Stephen, which goes, which went out on Wednesday, which is today as, as we're talking. To illustrate the film, we didn't play anything from Nebraska because radio doesn't really play Nebraska. What we did play is Born to Run and then halfway through, the song that I mentioned on the show last week,

won the last mile of the way by Sam Kirk. Which is wonderful. Isn't that a fantastic moment in the film where they sit and listen to that? Yeah, because he actually says, he says, can I just, can we just listen to something together? and they sit against the bed and they just play the song. Yeah, so I see, I'll mention this

because Jeremy says this in the interview which is on greatest hits. He says that Jeremy Strong texted Bruce Springsteen and the question was what song would you play to save someone's life? That was the question. And Springsteen texted back

after quite a few hours so I'd have been thinking about it last mile of the way by Sam Cook so although that's a fabricated bit for the film I thought okay that's a really interesting question which only someone with a very large knowledge deep knowledge of music would be able to attend what what would where do you go anyway

so he goes to sam cook and the stairs anyway so tell me so as somebody who does know all this stuff and it has been a fan all the way through do you think the film is an honest reflection of the creative process and and of where Nebraska sits in that landscape? I should say, I have not been a fan all the way through. I didn't get to be a fan until the ghost of Tom Jod

and then discovered stuff going back. So at the time this came out, I was absolutely not a fan. But it seemed to me to be a very honest, painfully honest, and I loved all the techie grooves and how do the greatest engineers get rid of the hiss that's on that wretched cassette, which they hate. clearly the cassette doesn't even have a box and no one thinks to provide it with a box at any stage during the film

I thought it felt like very honest and very revealing and hugely enjoyable and will make you I think first of all download the Sam Cook album and then go back to Nebraska and enjoy it all over again I don't think the title is very good but and in terms of titles that are difficult to remember you could call this

Springsteen one battle after another Yes, you could. That's very good. That's very, very good. So, because that also works. Okay, so when you've seen it, we'd love to know what you think, particularly if you've never heard the Sam Cooke's song, whether you know, whether you were blown away with it the way, the way we were. Correspondents at Cowder Mayo.com. I'd like to hear from anybody who had a, yes. Anybody who had a TAC, you know, four-track cassette thing, tell me your memories of it, because those, I've still got mine. I've still got mine in all its hissy glory. There might be fewer people that have recollections of.

that studio system. Anyway, there's one more film to mention. Yeah, so sketch. So this is a goosebumps or gooney-style kids' fantasy adventure, written and directed by Seth Wally, featured first-timer, expanded apparently from a proof of concept short called Darker Colors, which I confess I hadn't seen.

Co-produced by Tony Hale, who stars as the widowed father of two kids, Jack, who is a gamer, and Amber, who is an artist. Both kids are dealing with the loss of their mum. Amber is channeling her grief into these drawings which are filled with monsters and violence and blood and dismemberment and when her notebook is chanced upon by school they find a picture of a boy being cut in half by a monster

and they're appalled although somebody an adult thinks that perhaps drawing these pictures isn't entirely bad He's a clip. I think drawing this was a much healthier choice than pulling out his eyeballs. What do you say? You know what you could have done? That would have been a lot worse? If I took a machete and...

I'll show you. Right here. What do you see? Nothing. You could have let that anger sit inside of you growing bigger, stronger, and scarier, but you didn't. you put it right here where it can't hurt anyone. There's a lovely thing that

which says you could have done something much worse and she said, yeah, like pulling out, no. She's off on the dismemberment again. So anyway, meanwhile, her brother has discovered a pond near the house, the house that their father is trying to sell now, that seems to have magical fixing powers. It's got a broken phone, and the phone falls in the pond

and then it's not broken anymore and there's a plate that's broken and it fixes the plate. So it's doing something magical. So what would happen if all these incredibly monstrous drawings that his sister is doing somehow came into contact with this magic?

And that's kind of the setup of what happens in the film. So Tony Hale has described it as a cross between Jurassic Park and Inside Out and certainly there are a lot of nods to the former and there's lots of Spielbergian shots of people looking up you know that thing that Spielberg does those brilliant shots of people looking up in astonishment that you always get in in Jurassic Park and also like inside out there's a really sort of nice concentration on

the idea of it's a film talking to young people about why it is that apparently negative emotions like fear or sadness in the case of Inside Out they may actually be positive when you heard that in that clip you know you've put this in a drawing that may actually be a good thing I mean there are a lot of cinematic nods in the film. There's a very obvious quote, nod to Psycho with the, you know, with the shower curtain. It's clearly been made with the intention of playing to an audience across the board. So it's not just playing to a young audience. It's playing to grownups as well, which is obviously the case with Inside Out.

I mean, the dialogue between the father and his sister, who is the estate agent trying to sell the house. He's very droll. It's very sort of funny, very, very dry. As for the effects, I looked this up, and according to the wiki page, the film cost $3 million, which is astonishing because, I mean, I know technology's moved on and everything, but it doesn't look like it's made for $3 million. It looks like it's made for $30 million. You get a lot of thrill-ride bangs for your buck as the adventure kind of romp from one

lively set piece to the next. The BBFC rating is 12A4, moderate horror, violence. the violence category in the BBFC rating says, and I love this, scenes in which a creature attempts to swallow a child, a man bludgeon's a hooded creature, a creature's limb is hacked off, and a girl tears a creature in half, and then they add all in a fantastical context.

But the thing that's important is, for all that sort of whiz-bang drawings come to life stuff, what the film is about, it is about grief and loss and sadness, and it's about the way in which negative emotions can be channeled to, you know, positive ends. It's about taking those things, taking anger,

you know, anger is an energy, all that stuff. It's about taking them and turning them into something positive. So I thought it was really moving and really entertaining and I knew nothing about it. And I will confess that I only found out about it

because you alerted me to it because you have met the filmmaker. No, I, yeah, one of the producers, Steve Taylor, uh, we've known for a long time. He lives in Nashville. And,

So he's been a family friend for a long time and he said he got involved with this with this film. In fact, the way you were describing it there kind of ties it into Springsteen in as much as negative feelings turning into important art. You know, I know they're very, very different films. And I'd have thought PG would have been more appropriate

than a 12th, slightly surprising. But some of the stuff in it is pretty, you know, I mean. Okay, well, maybe, you know, maybe that's right. Anyway, I think it's hugely charming, and I think the central performances are wonderful. I think it's beautifully done. And I just want more people to go and see it because it's sort of into,

it goes into different areas, and the performances are terrific. And it's got that, it's got that thing that all the best of these have, is that, you know, we were talking before about Gabby's dollhouse. Well, that is playing very specifically to a certain audience, and, you know, parents aren't going to get much out of it

other than you're going to get, you know, Christian Whig doing that stuff. In the case of this, it is playing across a much broader field because it is dealing with something that everybody kind of comes to understand, which is that those things, sadness, loss, you know, anger, all those things need to be channeled into a positive energy. As obviously, it gets all David Lynchy on it. And I think it does have that. And I also think it's very, and there are things in it that are really creepy. I mean, the gribly eyeballs, the crawling eyeball spiders, I thought were really creepy. So it's well worth looking out

You might not have heard about it anywhere else But we're on top of it So look out for sketch Because it's decent family Very good I hugely enjoyed it But I am compromised Because as Mark correctly says

We know one of the producers very well I don't know him I don't know the producer I mean I literally I don't have any contact with him at all So I don't know them But I really like the film You can trust Mark always

Don't forget all the fun and games you can find at patreon.com slash Kermitomeo as the church builds its extension church planting I think we could call it. Patreon.com slash Kermitomeo. It's the end of take one.

This has been a Sony music entertainment production this week's team. Have been Gem Eric Josh and Heather, producer is Gem, redactor, is Pooley McPoolface and if you're not following the pod already please do so wherever you get your podcast, which includes our YouTube channel. The Christmas show, don't forget.

www. feign.comode-h-maio. Mark, what is your movie of the week? Well, it's really hard because it's been a very strong week. But I think because I, you know, I am a champion of indie cinema. I'm going to go for the mastermind. But I have to say, I really like the Springsteen. I really liked sketch. And regretting you is a pile of poo. But, but hey, it's almost a song. That's like a song. for me. Okay. Thank you very much, Steve, for listening. Correspondence at codemo.com for your comments. Take 2 has landed adjacent to this ear pod.