Kermode & Mayo’s Take - Errol Morris, The Pigeon Tunnel, Foe & Killers of the Flower Moon

Episode Date: October 20, 2023

Simon may be back in the studio, but this week Mark steps into the interviewer’s chair. He sits down with legendary documentarian Errol Morris to discuss his new film about the storied life and career of the equally legendary spy novelist, John le Carré. Mark also gives his take on ‘Foe’, a psychological sci-fi starring Saoirse Ronan and Paul Mescal as a married couple conscripted into an off-planet settlement program; and ‘Killers of the Flower Moon’, Martin Scorsese’s epic Western crime drama set in 1920s Oklahoma, which centres on the serial murder of members of the oil-rich Osage Nation, a string of brutal crimes that came to be known as the Reign of Terror. Plus our favourite duo takes us through the Box Office Top 10 and the film events worth catching in this week’s What’s On. Time Codes (relevant only for the Vanguard - who are ad-free!): 11:19 Foe Review 20:53 Box Office Top Ten 36:20 Errol Morris Interview 48:56 The Pigeon Tunnel Review 54:17 Laughter Lift 58:54 Killers of the Flower Moon Review 01:08:48 What's On You can contact the show by emailing [e-mail] or you can find us on social media, @KermodeandMayo EXCLUSIVE NordVPN Deal ➼ https://nordvpn.com/take Try it risk-free now with a 30-day money-back guarantee! A Sony Music Entertainment production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts and follow us @sonypodcasts To advertise on this show contact: [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Trying to escape the holiday playlist. Well, it's not gonna happen here. Jesus' season for a vacation Fa la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la With sunwing seasons of savings on now, why not ditch the cold and dive straight into sun? Visit your local travel agent or... Sunwing.ca Ready? It's just literally, look, it goes out of that bit and then it's all it says is Mark,

killers of the flower moon, faux pigeon tunnel. I know. All right. General nonsense. General nonsense. That's the bit I'm missing is the thing it says General nonsense and then throw to Mark. I've got, I don't know where it's gone.

I don't know where it's gone. It's gone. I don't know where it's gone. I don't know where it's gone. I don't know where it's gone. It's gone man or anything. Right. Whenever you're ready. So before we, hello. All right. We started. We had to do, we sometimes do the odd commercial every now and again.

And today, we did joyfully, anglefully, and with great pleasure. We did a little chat about the new crown podcast. Yes. The podcast that goes with Netflix. Top series about the raw family. Yes. Known as the crown. And there's an official podcast.

Ah, where the crown? What did you do? A little moment is to do. So that's the easiest, very good. And it's produced by the, the actor. So, you know, obviously everything. Obviously, if it's fighting against the mighty hand, I was listening to the podcast the other week.

And I didn't because I have my headphones up quite loud, because you know, why did you listen, because you've been on it, you were on it, so you know what's on it. No, I know, but do you never listen to it? I don't. Okay, well, some time.

I subscribe, obviously, and of course, and of course, Gleefully handle my money, because I have to be a Vanguard East End. I was listening because I was walking the dog and I was listening, and I could, I realized that my headphones are up to, like, I could actually hear Simon Pull yelling at me

in my headphones on the, it was like it was a loop, it had gone round, it had come out of my headphones. Who was it, who was it, Tommy Vance? You used to have a preamp. No, that was Robbie Vincent. Robbie Vinted. The Soul Shown Radio One. Robbie Vincent.

And of course DJs are deaf, so we'd turn up by our headphones very loud. But when I went in fluff Freeman had very loud headphones. Of course. And when I went to from Radio One to Five Live, I was flabbergasted at the rubbish headphones that you were required to. But also they were leaky so that I could tell who was producing which show because you could hear the voice of the editor as they spoke to the presenter and leaked to the microphone. I was saying, I don't, can we not have enclosed things? In the old BBC downstairs basement studios where they would do like the today program and all that from, they used to have bake-a-light headphones in there, like literally

bake-a-light crunches. Head crunches. It seemed to exist in order to make all the sound go away from your head. So you couldn't hear in your ear whatever the producer was saying. Growning, I think it was a block of a good word everywhere else. He was John Humphries who insisted on having those headphones. Because it made him feel like they might have moved on, I think, just a little. Anyway, I'm sure it was a great show last week without me. Well, obviously you were sorely missed. I mean, we did, we did our very best. Anyway, I'm sure it was a great show last week, without me. Well, obviously you were sorely missed.

I mean, we did our very best. Oh, I was sitting in this Italian cafe in Italy, so I guess it just makes it. Italian to cafe. It's just a cafe then, wasn't it? And having, you know, a bowl of pasta, something like that. And these, for EnziSE is full of Americans. So for ENSE is Florence, but in Italian.

So there's, so you're just asking for the English speaking list. And so these two American students are having a meal next to us. Right. So, and they always talk to everybody. Right. So the Americans will always talk to them. Well, these Americans students said to me, so where are you guys from? And I said,

from London, who went, oh, right. Do you like London? I said, well, yes, it's a great, you know, it's a fantastic city. It's a fantastic city.

And then he said, so are you guys retired? I need, I, you said, excuse me. I did, I did. And then to compound things, I said, oh, thanks very much. Do we look with, okay, you said excuse me. I did, I did. And then to compound things, I said, oh, thanks very much, do we look with, okay, we obviously do. After that, I blank them.

I wanted to get up and chuck his pizza in his cocky face. How about you? Anyway, so that was, I was sitting in a pub in Cornwall with my dog who, for the first time, was I was sitting in a pub in Cornwall with my dog who for the first time was being well behaved in the pub. And an American couple sat down next to me. And as you said, they talked to anybody, but of course what happens is if you have a dog, particularly if you have a vaguely well behaved dog in a pub, people talk to the dog. And so they started talking to the dog. And as a result of this, I sort of felt that I should say something to them because they

were making a fuss of the dog, which was nice. And then I said, oh, so where are you from? And then it was evident that they didn't particularly want to talk to them. They wanted to talk to them. I just wanted to talk to the dog. And so it was in dogs. Babies and dogs. Babies and dogs.

It was like, yeah, yeah, no, we're not interested in you. We like the four-legged thing. That's absolutely fine. And then the gentleman, although he said, he said, what's that you're eating? I said, a scampe in chips. And he went, what is it? I went, it's scampy. And he said, but what is that?

I went, where is scampy? You know, it's like scampy. And he said, is it good? I mean, yeah, it's like the classic pub dish. It's a he then ordered scampy and chips and he had it and he was very never had it before. Why is it called scampy? I don't know.

That was kind of my brain was doing some assaults thinking, is it prawns? Yeah, isn't it? Prons in batter. Prons in matter. Yeah. Yeah, I believe so. What?

Edible lobster. Is that what it's called? Is that what it's called? It's not called the prawn, it's called scampy. Do some work in there. Look it up. Yeah, it must be scampy sounds Italian Yeah, anyway very very anyway. There we go top anecdotes very Stalks in my dog There we go. It's the Italian plural of scam poe. What a scam poe

There was a load of there was etymological nonsense. Yeah, there we go Anyway, there we go So I introduced an American to scampe and some Americans thought you were retired. That's right, yes. That's it. That's right. Plus a breakfast, they all call across the room.

Where are you from, man? Where are from Texas? So at this point, I put on headphones and read because I'm being very, very British about the whole thing. I do this thing, I sit on the train with headphones on, even if I'm not listening to anything, because it's just a way of going away, go away, and then I was on a plane,

and the person next to me, with kept asking me things, and then I, because I was listening on my phone, and you know your phone when it changes, tracks, it all comes up, and I was listening to 10CC, how dare you, and the person next to me nudged me and I had to take a good I like that one Right great. Thanks very much You could have written me a note

What are you reviewing? Anti-social people aren't we what are you reviewing? I'm going to be reviewing because it says here killers of the flower moon I'm going to be reviewing because it says here, killers of the flail moon, foe, and pigeon tunnel, which leads us to our guest, Errol Morris, the documentary maker behind the pigeon tunnel. On extra takes, by the way, which has landed adjacent to this podcast,

you get even more top anecdotage about going to Italy and reviews of trolls band together. Yeah. It lives inside, and I know where I'm going, which is the power and press burger reissue. Taking a leave at you decide, which is which is word of mouth on a podcast. Yes, so this is the Jimmy's Havill dramatization

starring Steve Cougan. Our recommendation feature, we can watch this, we cannot list, we can potentially see more is currently Mark 19, Mark 19. 19, so that's it could go either's, it could go either way. It could go either way. One frame back, which is inspired by the pigeon tunnel, we're talking about films about authors.

And if you're interested in this kind of thing, you can access this via Apple Podcasts or head to extra takes.com for non-fruit related devices. And if you're already a van Goddaster, as always, Mark is about to say. Can you hear me? Thank you. Reviewing just a moment, as always, Mark is about to say. Thank you. Thank you. Reviewing just a moment.

Email from Will. Chaps. The issue of guilty pleasures in film or otherwise is an ongoing one. Right. This is from previous podcasts. One of your podcasts from a few weeks ago, Simon took issue with a concept who guilty pleasure stating them to be ludicrous. Mark meanwhile took a slightly more lenient attitude.

But I've noticed that throughout all of history, this has been a bone of contention with filmmakers, cineasts and casual film goers alike. To name one example, Mark's MK3D live show with Edgar Wright, the bearded mind behind Short of the Dead, Scott Pilgrim and last night in Soho, to name a few. You're not entirely sure that his mind is bearded.

I mean, his face is bearded. I mean his face is bearded. In said show, Mark asked Edgar to announce his guilty pleasure, which he chose to be Michael Winner's Kelthorra, the Sentinel. Yes. Before this, however, Edgar said that he didn't and presumably still doesn't believe in guilty pleasures. Yes. I found myself nodding in agreement with Edgar.

Why? Because he's Edgar Wright, not Edgar Rome. Also, like Simon said, why should anyone feel guilty about what they enjoy? Or because they feel they have some kind invisible cabal of cinematic snobbs is watching them from afar, shaking their heads dismissively. I say, naysayers be damned. Let's do away with the concept of guilty pleasures. How? By renaming the concept to something a little less self-conscious.

Maybe a better way of looking at it would be that you go with your heart over your head for critically damned films. Maybe we could call them heart over brain films instead. It's the same number of syllables as guilty pleasures. Or to shorten it further, we could call them hob films, H-O-B, heart over brain. This makes it feel a lot more pleasing. And maybe even tasty as it's reminiscent of a particular brand of biscuit. You know it's packed with a little too much sweetness that may make others sick, but you consume it anyway, because after all it's the little things that make life more enjoyable. Great show and thanks for everything, it says Will. So that's very good.

So I think that means I won. And heart over brain films is what we took. I mean heart over brain could work. I think you know where you can go, I know everyone is saying, don't enjoy it, but I just did. So that is a hob film. I don't mind what you call it,

but we all know what it is. So if you want to call it a hob film, I'm trying to get to a joke about, you know, hobnob, but I can't. Hobnob said that at the last biscuit you should have before you make a podcast or do any radio or... Because they're stuck in your teeth forever

a little bit of kind of O.T. Pleasure. O.T. Pleasure. Yeah. I mean, I love that. I have all the albums. Yeah, that's true. And a chocolate.

Chocolate Hobnob is particularly lovely. Yes. Hobnobs. Hobnobs. I always have them, but not when I'm working. And Paul says, dear Dr. K influenced BBFC warnings for your consideration. So this is the kind of the strange advice which sometimes comes up at the beginning of stream TV shows and stream movies. Beware robots hitting each other. Beware two characters hating

each other then falling in love. Beware all action fully explained in trailer. Beware, could lead to sleep by second act. Beware contains familiar tropes and cliches. Down with Nazis up with free ice cream. Thank you, Paul. Very good. I mean, this will continue and will be more of that particular topic as we progress through take one. Take two and then probably also take three. Tell us something that is new and fabulous. Well, no, not fabulous because we don't know because that would be pretty judging. Okay. Tell us something that is out. Foe, which is a low-key science fiction drama made by Gareth Davis,

who made Lion, which you very much liked. Yeah, I remember that. And Mary Magdalene. It's co-written by Davis and Ian Reed upon whose novel it is based, I should say, that I haven't read the novel from 2018. So, Sursheron and Paul Muskell, who you interviewed, didn't you? You've interviewed both of those, yeah, exactly. That's a cast. That's a cast. Straight away. They are hen and junior. They are living together in a remote farmhouse in a dystopian near future. In the opening moments, we hear hen saying that she feels like he doesn't see her anymore,

she feels in danger of losing whatever is left of herself. So, there are tensions in their relationship, but they're getting on with life. They are managing until a stranger arrives at their remote farmhouse in the middle of the night. Here's a clip. Someone's here. Oh. Looks official, isn't it? Yeah, goodby. When was the last time we had a visitor? It must be lost. No, I don't think so. He must want something.

Oh my God. Hey, whoa. Um... You even messing with this? What are you talking about? It's empty. Yeah, we never even loaded. What do you mean we never even loaded? Just put the gun back.

Put it back. Or what? Put the gun back, okay? We need to go, come on. I'll get the door, it's empty. Okay, really? I can't do anything with the gun, it's empty. Go.

More to the point, Paul. You can't open the door, your shirt's not done up. Yeah, but they're in the middle of nowhere. They weren't expecting visitors. But they're someone at the door. Do you share top? Yeah. Well, okay.

You're standards. Come on. Standards. Okay. So the visitor is Terence played by Aaron Pierre, who we recently saw as Francis in brother. So you've got another case in which it's an American, it's a set of American characters played by English and Irish actors continuing to put our transatlantic

cousins out of work. He is indeed official and he does indeed want something. Apparently, Junior has been selected to go and live off Earth, something about which he doesn't seem to have a choice. And in his absence, we don't know how long he's going to be away from because it's not made clear. He's just told he's been selected as one of the people that's going to go and live on this space station. Hen will be left alone. So they are going to provide an artificially made replica of him to fill the gap, to live with her whilst he is away.

And in preparation for this to happen, Terence must carry out interviews with them about their lives and their relationship and their private thoughts. And in order for the replica to work, they have to be honest in those interviews. So it's a really interesting setup. It's a three-hander, you know, one interloper interviewing them about their relationship so that one of them can then be replaced by a replica of themself. And it is really, really good, right up until the moment that it isn't.

And the moment that it isn't is exactly the point that the filmmakers feel the need to play their hand and explain everything that's going on. And it's really frustrating because I saw it in a, it was an LFF screening. And I watched a good half of the film thinking, this is really well done, I mean, it's mysterious and it's atmospheric and I, it's got great performances

and I love the fact that they're using a science fiction conceit to really talk about the nature of relationships and what we want and what we expect and what, and you're not quite sure what's going on and how much of it is real and how much of it is imagined and how much of it is metaphorical until suddenly you are and then the whole thing falls apart it then doesn't help that the film has empty it's like return of the king there's like an ending and then there's another ending and then there's another ending and then there's another ending and then they get on the boat and then there's another ending. And by the end, it's subblade runner ho come that you're just going, this makes no sense and what bothered me about it is I, I enjoyed the first movement of it. The first two

movements were so much with those great actors and the atmosphere was getting under my skin and it was melancholic and strange. And then it's like it absolutely hit a wall when suddenly everyone started explaining the plot. And then it's just explanation and exposition. And as soon as that happens, your whole kind of, it's okay, this is meant to be enigmatic.

It's meant to not make sense makes you go Yeah, I don't know any sense at all. That makes absolutely no sense It and it bothers me because my advice would be go and see it but leave about two thirds of the way through the film Go and see it and then at the moment that they start explaining the plot Leave is there something that's you know like the arrival of somebody or a spaceship or a, does something explode or I would say, it's difficult because it's no, I can't even tell you because because in order to do so would be to explain more than like, who is that, can I actually, is it, who is the foe of which they speak? No, the title.

Maybe it's ourselves, maybe it's her, maybe it's him because we're all a bit. Maybe it's the man. Oh, we're the man. Are you still fighting against the man? Always really whoever that is. Yes, I don't know. But anyway, because what's in the school of rock stick it to the manitis.

Anyway, it, because it's really, really good until the moment that it isn't. And that is faux. One of this week's new releases, or there are some other releases to consider, Mark, for example, we are going to be reviewing the new film by Mark Scorsese, which is Killers of the Flower Moon, and also the pigeon tunnel with our special guest, I don't, Errol Morris, I was just speaking to you. No, I was leaving again because're speaking to him. No, I was leaving again because usually we jump. That's how I was about to say Johnny Morris.

Johnny, I was about to say Johnny Morris. Johnny Morris. Johnny Morris. Talking about animal magic. We'll be back before you can say it's not the number of breaths we take, but the number of moments that take our breath away. Happy Nord Christmas. Protect yourself whilst Christmas shopping online and access all the Christmas films from around the globe. Plus, when you shop online, you'll have to give websites your card details and other sensitive data like your personal addresses. Those websites should already have their own encryption built into their payment systems, but to be on the safe side, you can use a VPN to ensure that all data coming to and from your device is encrypted. Even if you're using an unsafe

Wi-Fi, you'll still be able to shop securely with a VPN. And you can access Christmas films only available overseas by using streaming services not available in the UK. To take our huge discount of your NordVPN plan, go to NordVPN.com slash take. Our link will also give you four extra months for free on the two-year plan. There's no risk with Nord's 30-day money back guarantee. The link is in the podcast episode description box. Hi, esteemed podcast listeners, Simon Mayo. I'm Mark Kermot here.

I'm excited to let you know that the new season of The Crown and The Crown, the official podcast, returns on 16th of November to accompany the sixth and final season of the Netflix epic Royal Drama series. Very exciting, especially because SuperSub and Friend of the Show, Edith Bowman hosts this one. Indeed, Edith will take you behind the scenes, dive into conversation with the talented cast and crew, from writer and creator Peter Morgan to the crowns Queen Elizabeth in Mel

Distant. Other guests on the new series include the Crowns research team, the directors, executive producers Suzanne Mackie and specialists such as voice coach William Connaker and props master Owen Harrison. Cast members including Jonathan Price, Selim Dor, Khalid Abdullah, Dominic West, and Elizabeth Tab Bikki. You can also catch up with the story so far by searching the Crown, the official podcast, wherever you get your podcast. Subscribe now and get the new series of the Crown,

the official podcast first on November 16th. Available wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back. Oh, we never really went away. We'll do the chart in just a moment. Jim on this email, dear Freken and Fellini, on the subject of unlikely double bills. I think have a particular input for you. I do shift work, meaning that I often find myself transitioning between starting at 7am one day and starting at 2200 hours the next day.

So that must really knock your sleeping person out of work. My personal system to manage this is to try and adjust my body clock by staying up all night in between with a thermos of black coffee. So I can go to... Can I just say at that point, there are some really nice sort of thermos-type flasks available there are with our branding via the website. Never miss a opportunity. It's a great... If you haven't got one of those flasks, look at our website because I think you'll find top merch for Christmas. Shameful. Anyway, thermos of black coffee. So that I can go to bed at roughly the same time,

I'll be getting home the next day. Being the father of a two-year-old, oh my goodness me, my time for movies is not what it once was. So this is also one of my key times to cross a few things off my watch list. This does however produce some interesting results. Most recently I watched the French connection and the father, women talking an eight and a half, and drive my car, Pinocchio, the Guillemondale Tourer, and all quiet on the west and front. The thing that I seem to consistently get wrong about this is not so much a clash of films,

but misjudged order. Relaxing into what feels like a more accessible film first feels like the right thing to do. However, finding myself in the midst of a fever dream like eight and a half, a brutal assault on perception and memory like the father, or a churning, unrelenting electronic-fueled murder factory like all quiet, after being pumped up for nearly 24 hours, were harrowing experiences I would struggle to recommend to anyone. Perhaps a few will place John Wicks would be the answer. Tengie Tongue, up with John Wicks would be the answer.

Tengley Tongue up with seven bins and down with the Kaiser. We haven't had down with the Kaiser, have to say. No, we haven't. So Jim's taking us into new territory. Very good. But I do think that you do have to consider the order of films, don't you? Yeah, and this was made particularly,

it was brought into sharp relief by Barb and Himer. Yeah. You could not do it. You couldn't do Barbie first and then Oppenheim. Well, you could, but it just wasn't recommended. It's far better to go with a hard hitter and then Phil. Because otherwise, it's like having your pudding for... And as John Shuttler was said, it can't go back to Savory now. All right. So, so...

Yeah, so the Oppenheim is Savory and, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so because it was just... But as I'm right, though, I'm talking about a sculpture, it's the best flavor of those. The one I liked was the pink one, which was, I don't know what it was meant to taste like, and it tastes of pink, I think. Exactly. It literally tastes the pink. The pink. Exactly. Okay, so here comes the box office top 10 at 47. Cassius X becoming Ali, which is a very interesting documentary about Cassius Clay becoming Muhammad Ali and the point at which he was Cassius X and what that was,

you know, the identity change, what that was all about. And it's intertwined sports stuff with cultural critique. I thought it was fast, I can not least because watching Muhammad Ali at a tour on screen is absolutely mesmerizing, but this had, I thought it was fast, I can not least because watching Muhammad Ali at all on screen is absolutely mesmerising, but this had, I thought it was a really, really watchable entertaining documentary. What I should have said before, I mentioned number 47, was the streamers that we've been talking about, the fall of the house of Usher. Mark Ramsey says it was superb. Smart Cookie says, I thought the first episode was lacking excitement around the plotting. If that's one of the better episodes, it doesn't say much for the rest of it.

Mike Flanagan seems to be attracting the pretentious, she she brigade and it's ruining horror. Pretentious, she she. Yes. What does that, what does that mean? She she brigade, like fancy pants, I think. Like, I suppose it's kind of like, fashionable and flimsy.

Okay, all right. But I'm thinking, bourgeois being suggested. I rev thinking. Borshwar. Borshwar's being suggested. A reviste. Oh, a reviste sold. Mr. Housey, what a brilliant series this is. I binged it over two nights this week.

We'll be starting it again. A high camp, Gothic, tragic, horrific critique of US deregulated, repatious capitalism. Every one of the usher's got what they deserve bit of a spoiler then. Well, he's called the fall of the House of Usher, where they could just have fallen. No, because they've all fallen at the beginning and he is saying, I am now going to tell you how all this happened. Is it Carlo Gugino? Yeah, I was pretty sure.

Anyway, is perfect as the Angel of Death. And Simon Clark says, fall of the House of Usher is outstanding. Anyway, so that was thank you very much for getting it. I'd be interested to know what you think of this, because I don't think it's as good as Midnight Mask, because it's Mike Flanagan, who made the mask. I will. I will. It is necessarily more episodic, because of the way the story turned,

but I would like to know what you think. I need to finish Lioness first. Okay. And then when I finish that, I will, I will join you there. Okay. So, and then Cassius XIV. Number 12, Mean Street's 50th anniversary 4K restoration. I mean, what this reminds us is that 1973 was an extraordinary year, because we've had so many 50th anniversary where it got into the dragon and Dublin was coming up and exorcist

and mean streets. What a year to be alive that was. UK chart position 11, nowhere in the the States Friday the 13th. Yeah, again, again, Friday the 13th is being re-is being reissued. I don't know, what is this thing around the first week? Anyway, Friday the 13th is, but I know it was because it was there was a Friday the 13th. I interviewed Sean Cunningham, who was the director of this full screen screen game, which is the documentary idea for Channel 4 during what you refer to as my wilderness years.

And what I refer to as my documentary years. And anyway, it's the film that brought the grind house into the mainstream and made every big studio realize that what Mario Barve had been doing with Bay of Blood was in fact salable to a mainstream multiplex audience. The number 10 position is occupied by Frozen. Yeah, there will be some new films soon, but not at the moment. Number nine, here, number 42 in the States is the Miracle Club. Now, go on.

Yeah, well, it's going to say, Ben did a very good interview with Laura Linney on last week's show. If you haven't had a chance to listen to it, listen to it. It is, she gave very, very good account of herself. And I like the film. I think it's, it's, it's think it's, it has more bite and more darkness than perhaps that poster and title suggests. And on the subject of that, Ed Harrison says,

dear bloke on the right and man on the left. Long term listener, oft unpublished emailer here with a question which has been bugging me for years. Ed, you have to say you, me too. Okay. Why, why, why do most film posters list the cast in completely different order to the way they appear in the picture. I often see someone in a film poster and think, who is that? But then it's complete pot luck and whether I can work it out from the cast listing above or below. The latest example, which has really ground my gears,

is for the Miracle Club, the picture, which you have, you just look at the film poster, which has the cast and a yellow bus, and the background is a big yellow kind of orange poster. The pictures here attach, clearly shows four women. Yet the list of cast above not only has the names in a completely different order, but actually lists three women and one man. So one of these ladies is anonymous, or maybe not even in the film, who knows about the bloke.

I realized the order that the talent are listed in on the poster matters, that's before we get to those who deserve an end. But how hard would it be really for the PR folk taking or creating the pictures to get them to match the actor's billing? Is there a really good reason for this or is it just laziness? Keep up the good work and down with mismatched publicity shots. There is a really good reason for it.

And I understand the annoyance. So basically, as you've said, the order that the cast are listed in is contractual and is arranged and thrashed out by lawyers. So the order that it appears in, which always preferences left to write, this is kind of the moment of which I should leap in with the towering inferno story, you know, which is right, but up left, but the so, you know, but so that is contractual.

And then when they do the publicity image, they don't do the publicity image in conjunction with that contractual organ, and they just do it in conjunction with whatever they think the publicity image is. So when you then stick to them together, they are mismatched because they are not created together. And yes, it wouldn't be rocket science to try and make it work. But if you think about the miracle club, the image of it has to have Laura Linney front and center. Yes. But it because contractually her name has to appear first from left to right, You'd have to have it on the left of the image

But how mad to take a point four women. I know I know and then only three are mentioned and a bloke who is not on the post Yeah, and that will be because and Stephen Ray is Is a draw and I know believe me it makes no sense at all and it but it does but weirdly it does make sense But it is entirely contractual. It makes sense to lawyers. It makes no one else. It makes sense to lawyers and show his agents. Number eight, here, number six in the States are haunting in Venice, which I like, and you know, I enjoy Kenneth Brown, enjoying, enjoying, yes, it's still doing very well. Those movies are successful. Number seven here, number three in the States is SawX, which is one of the best Saw movies.

So you haven't seen any of them. And you're not going to. No, absolutely. Okay, well, but if you're going to make a Saw movie, this is the one to make. Number six here and nowhere in the States, the Great Escaper. I sent you this. A new story in which Michael Cain has announced that he is retiring from acting. Yes. And the reason I sent it to you was because it was... It was three years ago. A previous incarnation of this show, which announced that Michael Cain was retiring.

It was like that. But we didn't announce it. He did. And they were going to do it. And they were going to do it. And they were going to do it. And they were going to do it. Really?

On the show. And he said, I can't make any more movies. I'm retiring from acting. And you said, why? And he said, well, because, you know, I'm not in the best possible health. And I can't do it anymore. So I'm retiring from acting." And you said, why? And he said, well, because I'm not in the best possible health. And I can't do it anymore. So I'm retiring from acting. And then when the show went out, he immediately issued a retraction saying, I'm not retiring. He would go, well, I'm not retiring. And he says, not, I'm not retiring. But we didn't say you were some like, not a lot of people know that. Not a lot of people knew the person who said it. So he wouldn't

have done it without him. And on the evidence of great escaper, who knows, maybe he'll do another, he's very good in great escaper, it's a lovely performance. He's retired like Elton John, as retired on a regular basis, that's what was about. Didn't Frank Sinatra do like three fair welters? Number five here, number four in the States is the creator,

which I like, I think it has flaws, the States is the creator, which I like. I think it has flaws, but the flaws just add to what I like about it. And you really enjoy it as well. And go back and listen to our interview, your interview with the director, which is fantastic. Number four here, not charted in America is some other hood. So some other hood is the sequel to another hood,

which is the Adam Deacon's sort of pastiche of the Hood movies, you know, Kid Old Hood, Adult Hood. As I said when I was reviewing yesterday, it's not, it's absolutely not aimed at me, and there are things about it that really don't land as far as I'm concerned, but there are also, I laughed three or four times and you kind of have to admire the energy of it. And there it is. It's found its audience. It's gone in at number four. Number three, number one in America is the exorcist believer. Okay. Number two here, number two in the state's poor patrol, the mighty movie, which is an improvement on the previous poor patrol movie. It's got a terrific score by Pina Tupra. It is absolutely candy colored.

You know you said, we've said earlier on the Angel Delight tastes of the color pink. Yes. Well, this tastes of the color, ah! Oh, it's all right. It's just like, wow. Thank you, Tuna Lake, your mouth is tingling

with whatever it is. Your head, your whole head is tingling. And the UK number one is Taylor Swift, the Eer as tour. She's now officially the highest grossing concert film of all time. Filmed as far as I understand over three shows in Inglewood. And what happened was, Taylor Swift was negotiating with the major studios about doing this. And the major studios weren't playing ball or procrastinating. So she ended up, or her company ended up doing a deal directly with theatre.

I think it was with AMC in America to distribute direct to the theatre. This was like an outside, this was like breaking all the rules. And it is now the biggest selling concert film of all time, which means that all those studios are probably to quote Rowan Atkinson, I bet you're all feeling like a right bunch of Charlie. This is now going to be the new benchmark. I remember when, was it live nation, when Madonna signed to, suddenly it was when the big shift became that actually playing concerts was the thing that you made money from and your album sales were saying not the other way round. So this feels on industrial because it's done so well like a sea change. So essentially the concert is 10 acts, 10 studio albums over what is it best part of two decades, like 17 years. I think there's costume changes, there's musical style changes, there's choreography, there's

absolutely sweeping insane camera work. There are banging tunes, some of which I know, now what I know about Taylor Swift wouldn't fill the back of a paste postage stamp because I'm not up with Pop Butt. So the actual concert apparently was over three hours, the film has got it down, apparently they've dropped some songs, they've tightened the transitions, it's now 169 minutes long. Here's what I can tell you, from the perspective of somebody at whom this is not a, it's really slick. It looks like they're amazing concerts.

The performances are just, I mean, you know when you see a show and you go, okay, yeah, that, like that, how you would do it, it's, there's so much, there is so much in it. And I was sitting there watching it thinking, you know, there is, I now kind of understand why it is that Taylor Swift fans, did they call them Swifties? Swifties. Love her so much. Because you kind of go, yeah, it's the full-on experience and the... You remember when I was talking about Dance Crays? That Dance Crays basically kind of puts you on stage with the bands. Of course, Dance Crays

is my music, so that's the period that I'm... But this, you know, it is a cinematic, whirlwind, rush-y-man experience of a show that looks like it was extraordinary. The songs are catchy, the show is energetic, the atmosphere is triumphant. She's clearly a genius. I took child 2 to see Taylor Swift in the flesh. Yeah, and how was it about a decade ago? Right, and more.

You could tell, she was just in a kind of coming out of country becoming more mainstream and she was an incredible performer and everyone was screaming at it. All the girls were screaming at it, you know, and it was... And are you a fan? Yes, I mean, but again, I'm not particularly... I'm not waiting for the next release to drop. No, but here's Dr Fiona Norton. Okay, she's got a few things to say.

Long term listener, half a vanguardist, me and my husband share a subscription, is this okay? Repeat emergency mailer. I went to see Taylor Swift, the Eerahs tour, and the delightful lighthouse cinema in Wellington, New Zealand over the weekend. Absolutely. Unfortunately, Taylor is not bringing her show to New Zealand, so the only way I would have gotten to see the show would have been to go to Australia, which is prohibitively expensive for many people. I don't think she brought it to Cornwall either. Seeing the show in the cinema was the next best thing, and it was a great show and a good time was had by all. As a loud and proud feminist, it was an amazing experience to see a woman almost exactly

the same age as me, absolutely at the top of her game, living her best life and empowered to put on the show that she wanted to. I have a question about filmmaking and distribution that I hope Mark can answer. I've heard that this film was made and distributed by Taylor's company exclusively and that this is caused something of a ruckus in the industry. How much truth is there to this? Is what she has done that revolutionary up with Mary representation in Parliament down with uninspiring white men called Chris. As Cecilia E's Fiona Colonial Commoner, PhD in analytical chemistry, top 1% of listeners to Taylor Swift on Spotify 2022. As far as I understand the story, Barryman, I'm not an industry inside it. I know what I know about the story is what I read from

Screen International in Variety. Yes, there was a little negotiations with the major studios. They were stalling. They weren't happening. So her company just went directly to, I don't believe it's AMC theaters, and they did the, and it broke the mold because it shouldn't have worked, but it did, and it just felt like one of those moments in which everybody will now look back at it and go, well, that happened. And as I said, the studios that weren't playing ball

ended up with egg on face. No, we don't want to sign the Beatles. Exactly. It was all that kind of stuff. Harry Potter? I'm not gonna cast John. ended up with egg on face. No, we don't want to sign the Beatles. Exactly! Oh, like all that kind of stuff. Harry Potter? I'm not going to catch on. It's just going to work. No, no, no.

Pause on that one. Okay, back in a moment, Mark is going to speak to Errol Morris talking about the pigeon tunnel. This episode is brought to you by Mooby, a curated streaming service dedicated to elevating great cinema from around the globe. From my connect directors to emerging otters, there's always something new to discover, for example. Well, for example, the new Aki Karri's Mackey film Fallen Leaves, which won the jury prize

at Cannes, that's in cinemas at the moment. And if you see that and think I want to know more about Aki Karri's Mackey, you can go to Mooby the streaming service, and there is a retrospective of his films called How to Be a Human. They are also going to be theatrically releasing In January Priscilla, which is a new Sophia Coppola film, which I am really looking forward to since I have an Elvis obsession. You can try Mooby free for 30 days at Mooby.com slash Kermed and Mayo. That's M-U-B-I dot com slash Kermit and Mayo for a whole month of great cinema for free. Trying to escape the holiday playlist. Well, it's not going

to happen here. For a sunny location, Follow la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la Now, Mark actually interviewed today's guest as it was recorded last week when I was off Gen setting. He had been criticised by Americans for looking. Oh, that's your time of doing. He's a documentary filmmaker. That's Eromoris. Eromoris, not these American kids or Mark. You never know.

One of them might be Eromoris. No, I don't think so. No, you are. They were just kids. Anyway, a documentary filmmaker, Oscar-winning documentary filmmaker, wide critical success you'll know from Gates of Heaven, Vernon, Florida, the Defog of War,

that's what he won the Oscar-winning last year for you. Thin Blue Line. His latest film is The Pigeon Tunnel. Span's six decades looking at the work of John LeCarrie, the life of John LeCarrie, who he refers to in your interview as David, because David Cornwall is his real name.

Anyway, David Cornwall gives his final and most personal interview, you'll hear Mark's interview with the director, Errol Morris, after this clip from the film. It's terribly difficult to recruit for a secret service. In the end, you're looking for somebody who's a bit bad, but at the same time loyal. There's a type they were looking for in my day, and I've fitted perfectly. Separated earlier from the nest,

boarding school, but looking for institutional embrace. I can see my own life still as a succession of embraces and escapes. Okay, so that's a clip from the Pigeon Tunnel. I'm very pleased to say that it's direct to Errol Morris, has joined us. Errol, welcome to the show. The your film begins with a dramatization of The Pigeon Tunnel for anyone who doesn't know. Can you just explain what The Pigeon Tunnel is? David had written this book, which is his memoir The Pigeon Tunnel, which I was unfamiliar with. I read it just before we started our interviews. This goes back to 2019. And the book itself, titled The Pigeon

Tunnel, opens. It's really the frontous piece of the book. It's a parable that starts it all off about pigeons raised on the roof of a Monte Carlo casino and they're sent through a dark tunnel out over the Mediterranean and on the roof of the casino or shooters, probably disgruntled gamblers trying to take them down, winging some of them, blowing some to smithereens, not touching others. And the pigeons who are unharmed just simply to a full circuit and return to their coups on the top of the casino. And then they're sent out in exactly the same way on another day, and then another day and another day. A story about an endless repetition

that ultimately culminates with death. In some ways, it's better for her life. And in your documentary, we hear him talking about his father, who was a con man and a jailbird, but somebody from whom he learns certain skills from whom he learns certain skills and he develops his own worldview from his relationship with his father. Can you describe his relationship with his dad? Do I have to? I think it's kind of a lot of people won't know. A lot of people should go and see the movie. Okay, Errol.

So his mother abandoned him because his dad was pretty much unlivable with. And the documentary seems to suggest that the combination of those two things made him who he is. Do you think that's correct? David Cornwell, John McCarray has written extensively novels, nonfiction, both about his family and in his father, Ronnie in particular. Ronnie is a Donald Trump like character and veteran liar manipulator, fantastic, who unlike Donald Trump never rose to the heights of some success but was always on the verge of disaster and in fact was imprisoned a whole number of times.

disaster and in fact was imprisoned a whole number of times. And so David's whole life, early life was a mixture of this very precarious existence where you never really knew what was going to happen next whether everything was just going to fall apart and like a house of cards. And it involved play acting, it involved lying, it involved tremendous uncertainties and confusions. And yes, David does believe, and I actually would agree with him that it played an enormous influence on what emerged as his literary output.

He worked in the services himself, and he talks about Phil be believing that he was the center of the world because if you play two sides against each other you become the center of the world. And there's one exchange in which you you talk to him about you know the lure of secrecy and the lure of the agent and what emerges is that the dream is to be a double agent. The dream is not to be an agent, the dream is to be a double agent. Do you understand what that allure is? Maybe a little bit. The dream is play acting, manipulating other people to get them to do what you want them to do. A year ago, I was a private detective.

I was an out of work filmmaker and the only way I could earn a living was to work as a private detective. I remember one job that I had where I pretended to be a filmmaker. Well, I wasn't a filmmaker, but in that context, I was working as a private detective and trying to get information about these people. I wasn't working as a filmmaker. I was working as a private detective. There is something that is confusing, personally confusing. You start to ask the question, who am I? Who am I really? What am I doing here? Am I a filmmaker? Am I not a filmmaker? Am I playing to be a filmmaker? I'm some state of enormous self-deception delusion. The idea of being freed from your bounds of identity and reality is very powerful. Why did David choose

a pseudonym? Why didn't he write under the name David Cornwell? Why did he pick John LeCarrie? right under the name David Cornwell. Why did he pick John LeCarrie? It's about hiding, about play acting, about creating alternative identities persona. And I think that's at the heart of his storytelling, the heart of his own personality, the heart of his fiction, which made an incredibly interesting movie to make,

to think about. It's interesting that you make the comparison about, you know, you working undercover to some extent. It was undercover, not to some extent, but to every extent. But there's also a lot of discussion about betrayal. I mean, he talks about his own relationship with Stanley Mitchell and whether or not that was a betrayal. I mean, he talks about his own relationship with Stanley Mitchell and whether or not that was a betrayal. And at the very important part in the documentary, he describes himself as an artist. And you obviously is a documentary filmmaker,

are an artist. Did you find that whilst you were talking to him, you were on some level interviewing yourself or interrogating yourself? I think inevitably in any interview, part of it is an interview with oneself, an interrogation of oneself, as well as in this instance, John McCarray, but it is an exploration, a really good interview, at least in my sights,

it's something we try to reveal something that you didn't know, both about yourself and about the character you're interviewing. To the extent that interviews are determined questions with pre-arranged answers, where you really learn nothing, my thought has always been why bother? Why bother even doing such a thing? I think it heart I'm an investigator and I think think it heart, I'm an investigator, and I think at heart, so is John the Carre, he was involved in a lifelong interrogation investigation, interview of the world of history of the people around him that makes him really a

fascinating writer. Makes him also impart a documentarian. I was so much taken with how he transformed the experience of working in Bond in 1961, how that turned into the spy who came in from the cold. You have probably my favorite, well, I can go ahead and say it, my favorite novel that he wrote just came out of the crucible of history, the history around him. I often think of Conrad, what I think of John McCarray, because Conrad has this extraordinary gift of taking the history around him. And whether it's some kind of conceptual meat grinder, I don't know how you describe it, but turning the history around him

his personal experiences into art and into literature. And David had a very similar gift, one of the things that makes his writing powerful and interesting. And I hope that aspect of it. I think that's at the heart of the movie that I may in. It's something that I am part captured. You never capture everything, but you can try to do a good job at whatever you're doing.

He says on several occasions that if you ask him anything, he will answer honestly and he does appear to be doing so. But there are also areas that are off-limits. And he says, for example, this part of my life, my sex life, they're not for exploration. Did you feel that you got everything that you wanted from him or were there areas that you that you were forbidden from investigating? There was nothing that I was forbidden from investigating, but did I feel like I got everything I wanted? I never feel that. Never.

It'd be an idiot if I did. I do my best inevitably their questions and I wished I had asked that I didn't. Areas and I wished I had explored that I didn't. His sex life, though, isn't one of them. I never went into it as masters in Johnson that I'm going to do a chronicle of the sexual activities of John L. Kare. It wasn't a biography that I was making per se. I suppose if you were a biographer, you would say to yourself, oh, I should be interested in every single aspect

of this man and his personality. But I was interested in that book, the pigeon tunnel. I was interested in his parables, his metaphors, his view of history, his understanding of the human enterprise, writ large, not writ small. And my regrets, although they're extensive, do not include his sex life. You want to investigate it, please be my guest. He says at one point, without the creative life, I have very little identity, without a heart.

With the work, I am as near as I get to being a happy man. And if we assume that a lot of this is about you as well as about him, are you a happy man? No. Should I be? I ask because you kind of pose the question to him and he sort of gives a very similar answer. I do my level headed best. Do I enjoy making films? Yes, I do. Without it, and I'm sorry that I'm repeating something that he said, but I'll go ahead and do it anyway.

I don't know what I would be it anyway. I don't know what I would be without filmmaking. I don't know what there would be left for me. I have a lovely wife, I have a lovely son, and I am deeply grateful for both of them, but I'm also deeply grateful for filmmaking because part of being an investigator is you get to investigate stuff. You get to go out there in the world and to think about the world and about what it means, what history means, what truth means. And it's one of my favorite things.

What can I tell you? Errol, thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. So, it was Errol Morris, uh, talking to Mark while I was being insulted by Americans. And, uh, it's, uh, and very interesting. I haven't seen it. I have to say that when he said in really good, a really good interview reveals something about yourself. Um, I thought he did reveal quite a few things about himself. For example, when he said, do I have to, when you ask for an explanation? Well, I just asked him to kind of describe the relationship to his father and he said,

okay, do I have to? And then he said, people should see the film. And at that point, I thought, oh, okay, well, you did amazingly well to get what you got then because that's the whole point of this interview. Errol is that you, people haven't seen the film overwhelmingly. Everyone listed, they haven't seen it yet. You want them to go and see it. So why do you say we're just going to see the film? I know it is. It is an old one. He is, he has a reputation of being quite tricky. But I thought that he, you know, in the end, we got to where we were going, but it is always an odd one, isn't it? Do I have to? No, you don't have to, but it's just that it might be

people interested in the film. That's the game that we're playing. And it is an interesting film. I mean, I should say that as somebody who didn't know much about Macarach Cormal, and I hadn't read the memoir from this, which this takes its title, which is subtitle stories from my life. These stories were new, that opening story about the pigeon Tomel,

which he did repeat, which is a kind of this weird metaphor for this cycle of life and death. It will ultimately end in death. And one of the things that Morris does, he's a very dramatic documentarian. So because there have been so many adaptations of the Carre's stories, he uses clips from those

and also newly generated stuff to dramatize the stories as they're being told. And that's very well done. And so we learn about his childhood, we learn about the stuff with his father, go see the film. His time in the intelligence services, he's raised to fame as the world's most celebrated

SBNR's novelist. And we see all this told in a way that his part interview part, let's take clips and dramatizations. I think that that intertwining of private and public life is fascinating. I think the way in which fiction and biography intersect is really interesting. And I do think that the film is as much about Errol Morris as it is about the carry. I would say that I think the refusal to talk about the sex, although Errol Morris is very dismissive, I say, if you want to make a documentary about, you know, his sex life, go ahead and be my guest. The reason it's relevant is because

when what you're talking about is agents and double agents and double crossing and betrayal, it is absolutely historically true that one of the areas in which agents are done or undone is in their private sexual lives, it just is. And so it's perfectly fine for John the Carried to say this is off, this is off limits. But it is absolutely defined as off limits. And in a documentary, which is completely about that idea about adopting identities, presenting what they're doing. Of course, it's of interest. It's not just a prurient question. It is, it is at the heart of so many spy stories. And it is at the heart of so many spy stories, and it is at the heart of so many stories of betrayal and double crossing.

It's fine that Errol Morris doesn't have a problem with going there, but I think it would be fasecious to pretend that it is not an absence because it is declared as an absence. And also because it's not like this absence. Also because there has been, it's not like this stuff isn't to some extent in the public domain anyway. So I think it's, if you, if like me, you are not somebody who knows, Macarie stuff inside out,

you will learn many, many new things and it's a fascinating story, fascinatingly told. It does have a gap in it that is defined and is walked round, but is absolutely in absence. It doesn't mean to say that the thing itself isn't worthwhile because it's very watchable. I mean, it's written, as you heard from that clip, he has a great speaking voice. I mean, he is a great orator, not a Ramoris. Come on, Le Carre, when he tells his story, he tells it in a way that he's really kind of, you know, fascinating.

And you could sit and listen to it for hours. And he does say repeatedly, I want this to be definitive, ask me anything. I will tell you anything, except this. I completely disagree with the idea that it should be about the interviewer. Well, I'm interested in John Le Carre. I'm not interested in El Moroza. I don't want it to be about El Moroza, and in a good interview, I would define in exactly the opposite way that they manage to get lots of John Lakerra without anything from the interview.

Okay, what I would say is that I just think it's, he is right that his job as a documentarian does intersect with Lakerra's job as a novelist because what they're both trying to do is to seek for some kind of, to use that hurt song phrase, that, you know, ecstat. And there is a really good, not just watch a book, as a pamphlet, by Janet Malcolm called the journalist and the murderer. And she also wrote in the Freud archives. And one of the things that she talks about is that in any interview, there is a two-way street and it just depends on how it is, but it is never subject object, it is always, and actually, I think in this particular case, the acceptance that it is helps the thing, but it's,

the case, the acceptance that it is helps the thing, but it's, I also take your point. But for me, I think that the documentary is as much about Morris as it is about LeCarrie, and I see that as a positive, but I can understand that you might not have any. It's not that he inserts himself into it, it's just because of the way in which it works. It is an Errol Morris film about John LeCarrie. Should I wait for it to be on my television? You won't lose anything but not seeing it in the cinema. Anyways, the ads in a moment, Mark, but first it's time to step once again with Glee in our hearts into the laughter lift.

Which one do you want? Glee in our hearts all the laughter lift. Both, both, both. Here we go. Hey. Hey. Mark, big changes, big changes to report Shemayo. Okay. The good lady's ceramicist, Herendor changes, big changes to report Shea Mayo. Okay. The good lady's ceramicist, Herendor's, has become a strict vegetarian. It's such an enormous change, it's like I've never seen her before.

Yeah. Well, no, that's quite a written joke. No, a scene. Her before. Yeah. Did you know that Bruce Lee's brother BROKHO was also vegetarian very good Had to help the good lady ceramicist her indoors out on the old IT front this week Filiating Last it she said I can't sign into my eye cloud account. I said, okay, what's your password?

Let me type it in maybe you're making a typo. She said it's Mr. White Mr. Orange Mr. Blue Mr Mr Brown, Mr Pink, Holdaway, K, Billy, Marvin, Nash, Copenhagen, all one word. She says, that's ridiculous. Why is it so long the good ladies for Amrississ their indoors? Well, they said it had to be eight characters in a capital. Actually, that's not bad. That's actually not bad. Anyway, back after this, unless you're a van God Easter, in which case we have just one question, what is it impossible to do when holding your nose? Here that sizzle?

That's McDonald's juicy and delicious quarter pounder with cheese. Yeah, I'm hungry too. So what makes it such a hit? Spoiler, it's made with 100% Canadian beef. Yeah, that's right. Sounds delicious, doesn't it? Just imagine how it tastes. The quarter pounder with cheese, only at McDonald's. Get holiday ready at Real Canadian Superstore.

Will you find more legendary ways to save than any other major grocer? Until December 13th, you'll get a free PC turkey when you spend $300 or more. That's right, free. Only at your Super Holiday Store. Conditions apply to fly for details. Now, what is it impossible to do

when holding your nose? The answer is, of course, hum. When you hum, you're actually exhaling. And I'm just doing it. No, but you can't. See, you're running out of breath. Well, that's not how me is breathing. Everyone else, you run out of breath.

It's not impossible. It is impossible. It's just you can't do for very... Yes. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And you're making a noise, that's not humming. Humming is a beautiful, tuneful thing.

You're just making like guttural noises. Mind you, I've heard your record. Hey! By the way, here's a joke which I'm gonna credit to, because I saw this on socials. Dodge Brothers have got a Christmas single coming out soon. I'm looking forward to it. I've heard it.

It is good. I think this joke, or I'm going to credit it to a guy called Gleinyrudge who's a screenwriter and comedian. You guys like this. I'll do it in the style of big changes at Shemayo. I said to the good ladies surround sister and I said, do you like Tolstoy? She said, of course, who doesn't? I said, what's your favorite book? She said, the one where Woody is kidnapped and Buzz tries to save him. That is quite good. See, that is quite good. That is quite good.

We're including. Yeah, very good. It gives me a thumbs up. We've never done ever. Yeah. So can I tell you my joke now? What's that one? Because Hannah is wearing a T-shirt that's got... Yeah, it's a... Forbist on an old joke. Based on an old joke. And it says, Ernder Toa cat. C-A-T-E.

And it's called cats, right? And so the joke was, because one of my children came back from school and told me this joke, although what was brilliant was that they didn't understand it. Not recently then. No, no, it was just when they were like young. And so, so there are two cats that have a swimming race.

And one of them is called 5432. And the other one is called undertoile. And 54321 because undertoile cat sank. Very good. Yes, I remember that from the Bino or something. Exactly. David Thompson from Banga, Northern Ireland version. Yes.

Appropriate greetings. I may have missed the boat on this one, but on the subject of misheard movie titles. In the summer of 2002, my brother Neil and I were going to our holiday picture house of choice in glorious Port Rush, Northern Island, to see the horribly named The Sum of All Fires starring Ben Affleck. Upon hearing the title of our intended choice, my dad asked the somewhat confusing question

if the film was a late but not unwelcome follow-up to Kevin Costner's Oscar-winning masterpiece Dances With Wolves. After long pause in a series of silly glances, transpires that he thought we were intending to see the son of Wolfears. His character in, I think, even in foresight, I knew this would have been preferable. We're up with Wolves and down with fears, David, thank you very much for your email. If you want to get in touch, we would love to hear from you on any subject, correspondence at kermanamer.com. If you have any questions for us, take three

is there with questions, shmestions, we field questions on pretty much every topic. Anyway, get in touch, correspondence at carbonamayer.com. What else is out? Killers of the flower moon, which is the new film by Montse Coursese. This is a sprawl, it's nearly three and a half hours long, and it's based on a 2017 nonfiction book by David Grant, which I haven't read, you might have done, which is subtitled, The Osage Murders and the Birth of the FBI. Opening montage tells us that, turn the century, The Osage Nation, who were living on some of the least desirable land in Oklahoma, near America, strike it rich when they strike oil. Suddenly, they're wealthy, and that wealth attracted interest from white people who had previously shunned the area, but now suddenly become very, very interested in it.

So in the film, Leonardo DiCaprio is earnest, returning home from war where he was a cook during battle, seeking a new life with the help of his uncle, William King Hale, played by Robert De Niro. He says, don't call me uncle, call me King, everyone calls him King, which is kind of tells you something about his character. King explains that there is money to be made here, that money flows freely in this land. One of the ways of making it is to marry into the families of the indigenous people and then ensure that the ownership deeds of their property and their money pass to them in the event of deaths.

And King suggests that Ernest become a driver. And in doing so, he meets Molly, played by Lily Gladstone, who is currently unattached, his equipment. It told me he was going with Matt Williams for a time. He talked too much. Oh, I don't talk too much. Taking while I got a beat in this horse race. That's all.

But I didn't realize this was a race. I don't care for watching horses. Well, I'm a different kind of horse. Oh, I'm a little bit of a horse. What's that? She's from Maccassie. That's how you are. I don't know what you said.

But I must have been Indian for handsome devil. Yes. Yes. So a relationship starts to blossom between them, which, you know, there appears to be a genuine relationship. But the women of the Oss OCD are afflicted by diabetes. They're an increasingly large number of early or premature deaths and indeed murders and killings.

Enough in the end that these attract the attention of federal officers led by Tom White played by Jesse Plomans. So I spoke to Thelmscoommaker who is the Scorsese Longtime Editor who we hope will be coming on the show next week. And she talked about the how this was, you know, it was a labor of love for Scorsese. Oh, incidentally, she said one thing. Like she said, his name is pronounced Scorsese.

And I've always said Scorsese. Everyone says that. But apparently Scorsese. And she was very, very clear about this. She said, his name is pronounced Cossessi. And I've always said Cossessi. Everyone says that. But apparently Cossessi, and she was very, very clear about this, she said, his name is pronounced Martin Cossessi. And I am not, I am not arguing with Thelma Schoonmaker about how to pronounce. I think that's right. But the problem with that is, if you, in casual conversation talk about Martin Cossessi, everyone else is going to say, well, you're saying it like that.

And I'm going to say, because Thelma told me to, and I am not arguing with her, because she's not throwing it out. Anyway, so he had initially tried to make this before the Irishman. It was an expensive film. It's, I think, it's 200 million and it's Apple TV did it alongside Paramount. So despite the fact that it has a proper theatrical release, it will be seen by a large number of people on streaming, which I think to some extent explains the extended running time.

Because obviously, we all hear stories about when people are making films for studios for theatrical exhibition, then you end up having fights with the producers about, can it be this long, can it be this long? If you're a streaming service, they don't care. You make it as long as you want and fine. So it is true. And I think this has to be said, I think as a theatrical experience, it is a testing running time.

I think that it felt that it was being, that it had been put together in the knowledge that it could be as long as it wanted. And I think there is a question at some point to be had about whether or not there is a different thing between a streaming running time and a theatrical running time because I did feel that there were long goes I mean it takes its time and it's not always time well spent it's not always it doesn't always look like it's been absolutely ruthlessly stripped back it is it is it is taking its time to tell its story in a way that we were we would associate or I would associate more with home viewing. That said, it has real big screen beauty, it's beautifully shot by a Wikipedia. You see it on the big screen

and you think the visuals demand to be seen on the big screen. It's also clearly heartfelt. I mean, apparently the Usage Nation had quite a lot of input into the script and the film which changed it quite a lot. And which lend an authenticity to the story and the way the story is, because the story is quite horrifying in a sort of kind of understated way. I mean, it is a fairly brutal depiction of the way in which these people have been exploited and, you know, it's done in a kind of forensically methodical manner. Performance is a great. Leonardo DiCaprio's face, he does this grimace, which is like, I can't do it, but like his mouth is turned

down at either side, but he looks like he's constantly grimacing through the whole movie. And it's almost as if he has reconfigured his face to look like somebody who, you know, life has been hard to. And he's kind of grimacing in the face of the world. Robert De Niro really enjoys the role of King, the kind of the emperor of the King, and he really relishes that. But Lily Gladstone absolutely steals the show. And you saw just a little bit of the despite the fact that her role necessarily involves her character becoming more and more passive as she becomes ill and as she's kind of starts to be sideline by the narrative. Still, she's like this glowing thing right at the heart of the drama

and it's her who drags you into it and her who keeps you invested emotionally even when you've got in one hand these two kind of titans of modern cinema. There is a score which I think you're like very much by Robbie Robertson. She's bluesy and stripped down occasionally. There's this like, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, base thing that just goes on for like minutes at a time, just like a kind of plot. It's almost like a heartbeat. You're a Robbie Robertson fan anyway. Yeah. I think you'll like that very much. And the whole, like I said, the whole thing has a real heartfelt feel to it. I would say however, I do think that there is a proper debate to be had about

when you're being financed by streaming services and when running time isn't an issue, whether there is such a thing as an ideal theatrical running time or an ideal home to you, I did feel watching this in a cinema. This doesn't actually need to be this long. Can I have been, you know, four one hours? Yes, I think it probably could have probably could have been. I think that's probably the case. And in fact, funnily enough, later on, we'll talk about the Jimmy Savile drama, which is four one hours. And you know, we are just in an interesting point at the moment in which there is a tug of war between theatrical and streaming and whether or not, you know, like I said, everything about the visuals is big screen. But something about the nature of the storytelling lends itself more obviously to the small screen. And I'm not saying that means

don't go and see it in the cinema. What I'm saying is when you see it in the cinema, you are more conscious of the fact that it is absolutely taking its time telling this story. And you know, look, it's not that movies... Movies should be the length that they need to be. And if I'm honest, I don't know that this needed to be as long as it was. But there are many, many great things about it. That shouldn't be a defining factor.

How long is... Did it do that sound for you? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think so. Because three and a half hours just, nothing needs to be that long. Well, I can... You remember we used to talk about Monty Python's meaning of life.

Yes. Because they had an incredibly big budget. It meant some of the discipline and rigor... When actually at war. Absolutely. Because they had an incredibly big budget, some of the discipline and rigor that we've been for disappeared. And some of the discipline and rigor of saying we've got to, you know, it can't be longer than 220 or two and a half hours. Yeah. Is quite a useful thing, isn't it? That's what I said. I weirdly enough, I believe that that is the case. And, you know, I remember I had a conversation with Nigel Floyd once about we were sort of fighting

for directors being allowed to have their own directors cut and there was aliens, the special edition, this time it's more and all that stuff. And then I remember Kim Newman saying, at what point can we all agree that the shorter version of Wiccoman is better? I'm not saying that movies cannot be long, but what I'm saying is that there is an ideal length for stories and that may not be the same for theatrical and home viewing. And I think we are moving towards a point in which there may be a discussion about those two things. How long is it in the cinema for? It's a few weeks. I mean, it's getting a proper theatrical release, but it will be seen by a lot of people on streaming services because it's Apple. Correspondence at KermannMaria.com is how you get in touch

with us, and it's also the place that you send your 30 second voice note. But you know, people are clearly drifting over that with pleasure. So here's our What Song Guide. These are our listeners for this week. Hello Simon and Mark Louise Pankhurst here, organiser of London's Home Movie Day. This is a free event held at the Sinamar Museum on Saturday 21st October, from 1030 to 4, for anyone who has cine films, they can bring them along for experts to assess them and if OK, project them. Hello, this is Ali from Washington, DC.

The 10th annual Immigration Film Fest is going on this weekend, October 20 through 22nd, with virtual screenings also available through October 29th. Join us to help celebrate stories of immigrants and refugees. Visit K-A-M-A-D-C.org for the full schedule. Hello Simon and Mark this is Philip from Bath Film Festival which runs from October the 20th to the 29th with 38 films and events. Our guests include Danny Boyle and John Hodg, Ken Loach and Carol Molley. 50% of our films are directed by women. Big titles include poor things and all of the strangers. Go to filmbath.org.uk

to book tickets. So we heard from Louise and Louise Pankhurst. I mean, that's... Oh no. You would imagine? Yes. Almost certainly. From the Cinema Museum in London promoting their event happening tomorrow, IE Saturday, Alley in Washington DC, plugging the immigration film festival and Philip inviting us to the Bath Film Festival. Thank you to all of you. And if you have an audio trailer about an event, you'd like to tell us about anywhere in the world, correspondents

at curbidomeo.com. Thank you very much indeed. That's the end of take one. This has been a Sony Music Entertainment production. The team was Lilly, Teddy, Gully, Matthias, Beth, Hannah and Poole. Production coordinator, cameras, engineers, AP, producer, redactor in that order. Mark, what's your film of the week? Killers of the Flamoon. What does that mean, by the way? What's that killer, that killer's of the Flamune as a title. And as a tribute to Errol Morris, can you just watch the film? Okay. I don't forget.

Take two has landed a Jason to this one. I just wanted to know that. Loads of extra stuff, recommendations, some bonus reviews. Also take three is going to be with you on Wednesday, which is questions and shmessions. If you have any questions for us, we would like to tackle them. Send them to correspondentsatcovenomaho.com.