Kermode & Mayo’s Take - FILM OF THE YEAR ALREADY? Mark on BRING HER BACK

Episode Date: July 24, 2025

Vanguardistas have more fun—so if you don’t already subscribe to the podcast, join the Vanguard today via Apple Podcasts or extratakes.com for non-fruit-related devices. In return you’ll get a whole extra Take 2 alongside Take 1 every week, with bonus reviews, more viewing recommendations from the Good Doctors and whole bonus episodes just for you. And if you’re already a Vanguardista, we salute you.  Could we have found the film of the year already? ‘Bring Her Back’ looks like it’s got a fighting chance. Mark reviews this brilliantly unsettling new horror from The Philippou brothers, who last freaked us all out with ‘Talk To Me’ in 2022. We’ve got the Good Doctor’s verdict on ‘Fantastic Four: First Steps’ too—plus the box office top 10 and all your top-quality correspondence.   Our guest this week is the fascinating Justin Kurzel. You know him as director of 2015’s ‘Macbeth’ with Michael Fassbender, 2021’s ‘Nitram’, and last year’s Nazi-hunting thriller ‘The Order’--and now of his first TV project, ‘The Narrow Road To The Deep North’, which hits British screens this week. He chats to Mark and Simon all about the visceral new series, which follows a group of Australian prisoners of war working on the Burma railway in the 1940s, and stars Jacob Elordi and Ciarán Hinds. Plus there’s a bit of chat about Nina Simone’s chewing gum, and a little teaser for his next project with the guardian of this strange and sticky piece of music ephemera, Warren Ellis.    Timecodes (for Vanguardistas listening ad-free):  Bring Her Back Review: 08:36  BO10: 15:50  Justin Kurzel Interview: 21:55  The Narrow Road to the Deep North Review: 38:20  The Fantastic Four: First Steps Review: 51:16    You can contact the show by emailing [e-mail] or you can find us on social media, @KermodeandMayo  Please take our survey and help shape the future of our show: https://www.kermodeandmayo.com/survey   EXCLUSIVE NordVPN Deal ➼ https://nordvpn.com/take Try it risk-free now with a 30-day money-back guarantee!  A Sony Music Entertainment production.      Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts and follow us @sonypodcasts    To advertise on this show contact: [e-mail]  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi there, Mark. Do you know why hiring the right people quickly is so important? Well, the world of weekly film podcasts is so breakneck that when a vacancy comes up, we need to fill it fast. Good thing that there's Indeed Sponsored Jobs then when it comes to hiring. Indeed is all you need. Stop struggling to get your job post seen on other job sites. Indeed Sponsored Jobs helps you stand out and hire fast. With Sponsored Jobs, your post jumps to the top of the page for your relevant candidates,

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There's never been a better time to become a Vanguard Easter. Free offer now available wherever you get your podcasts. And if you're already a Vanguard Easter, we salute you. Mark you're wearing, are you wearing the same t-shirt as last week? Well, it's been washed, but I was wearing it again because I'm really fond of it. Thank you for calling Knox Island Gas. Thank you for calling Knox Island Gas. Local hero. I was so pleased when I got given this. I was so pleased about it. I love this t-shirt. Go on. How many times would you wear it without washing it? Once. Just the once. You wear a t-shirt once and then you wash it because there's nothing

stinkier than a t-shirt that you've worn already. Anyway, as you know, I have an extensive archive of what the good lady refers to as Mark's annoying t-shirts, many of which she has bought for me. We should also let people know that we are recording this show after an exciting morning that involved your entire laptop ceasing to work, the borrowing of the good lady laptop owner, her endorses laptop. Yes, I might have to use that later. The laptop I'm using at the moment is of a friend of mine, who's a film producer in Nashville and he's been staying for a couple of days, but he has to leave. So we've got to get the show done so that he can take his laptop back and get on the plane. That's right. That's right. He's produced a film which is coming out, I think, in October called Sketch, which is like a spy kids sort of adventure and was great fun. Enjoyed it

very much. But it's his laptop. We better love it. And the other thing is that just before we started recording, you had a bloke crawling around on your floor going, you haven't bled these radiators, have you? Yeah. It's a lot of hot air. He did say, quote, there's a lot of air in your system. And I thought, well, yes, that's true. You thought, yes, but what about the radiators? Yay. In so many ways. Anyway, later on, once we get around to it, what are you reviewing? Well, a very, very packed show. We have reviews of Bring Her Back, which is the new horror

movie by the Philippa Brothers. We have the Fantastic Four First Steps, which is the new reboot of Fantastic Four, and The Narrow Road to the Deep North, which is the TV miniseries now on the BBC, which brings us to our very special guest. Mason- Yes, it's the director of that series, Justin Kazelle. Also, of course, director of Snowtown, Macbeth, True History of the Kelly Gang, Nitrum, The Order, and now The Narrow Road to the Deep North, which is a very, very big prize-winning book. Now it has a TV adaptation. It's his first TV series, so we'll speak to Justin Cazelle later on in the show.

And you're a fan, I think. I am very much looking forward to that. I'm a big fan of his films and I've seen the whole of the TV series and it is strong meat, I think is the phrase. Bonus films in T2, what's going on there? In T2, I Know What You Did Last Summer, not that one, the new version of I Know What You Did Last Summer, which you will notice in a moment is going to be in the charts because it opened last week but wasn't press screened.

I can't imagine why. This is especially for you, Simon. There is a 4K theatrical reissue of your favourite movie of all time. Local here. No, Amadeus. That's absolutely right. theatrical reissue of your favourite movie of all time. Local here. No, Amadeus. That's absolutely right. Amadeus back in San Juan. So looking forward to that. And of course, if you're a subscriber, all the bonus stuff, back catalogue of wonderful joy going back many, many years and many, many episodes.

Much to enjoy there. Correspondents at Curbdomeo.com. Greetings from the lovely Nothing Strange Going On Here America. That's true. I don't think there's anything strange going on. I'm curious what you think about Google's AI new version of The Wizard of Oz. Have you heard about this, Mark? No. It's premiering at the Sphere in Las Vegas this August. It features the 1939 film, but AI expands the image to fit the massive 366 by 516 foot screen, adding new visual details to characters and scenery to upscale it to 16K. Okay. So, so the sphere is this place that you two opened, um, too much. I mean, the pictures are genuinely astonishing.

So that's, so they're putting on the Wizard of Oz. So Christopher says, I'm conflicted years ago. I was inspired by the Blu-ray restoration where a team use scans of the original Technicolor strips to digitally erase scratches without inventing new content. They preserved the film's texture while enhancing clarity. Now, Google refers to the original as, quote, tiny celluloid frames and also, quote, grainy negatives, which feels dismissive. Blu-ray.com praised the 4K release as one of the best looking catalog titles ever.

It's frustrating to see Google undermine the artistry and care of past restorations just because the sphere demands more pixels doesn't meet the film needs reinventing the AI generated additions, extra trees, clouds, cottages feel like a moral and artistic hazard. Dorothy and friends will be dwarfed by algorithmically imagined scenery. The AI upscaled faces, it's unsettling to think we're seeing a half real, half computerized version of Toto's fur. Still, if kids are inspired by this, does that outweigh everything else? If audiences gasp in awe, does that justify it? If Warner Brothers worked closely with Google, should we accept these changes? I hope Mark's ready for a stream of pea soup twice as long. Anyway.

Well, instinctively you're going to go, oh, we don't need that. But I can imagine having seen film of this astonishing screen at the Sphere, it would be an incredible experience. Yes. I mean, I can't, obviously I can't pass judgment on it because I haven't seen it. If it's only at the Sphere in Vegas and I'm not going to America under the current circumstances, obviously I'm not going to see it. I'm sorry, when you were reading that out, I did heave. But yes, I don't know. I can't say that my heart sings as a result of it. It sounds to me like that line that happens in Gremlins 2 when they're going through the shopping mall and you hear, and Casablanca, now in black, Casablanca, now in colour and with

a happy ending. I don't know. I mean, I'm really interested. To be honest, I think you spoke the truth when you said, I can't say because I haven't seen it. Because this is one of those moments where it sounds to me as though the sphere and I know someone who worked on that U2 show and I know someone who's going back to work on it there in a few weeks time. It's so overwhelming and so unlike anything that you've ever seen before. Christopher's right. It may well be that you'll go and see it and people will fall in love with it all over again. I don't think.

Yeah. I mean, one of my favourite filmmakers, Doug Trumbull, he began doing presentations at, is it called Epcot? One of the things that they did was a domed cinema, which you went into and it gave you a lunar experience. Apparently, it was amazing. I have heard that that U2 show is absolutely incredible. Yes, I know people who've been to see gigs at that dome say it's amazing. I suppose the reason that I sigh is because I don't think the Wizard of Oz, which incidentally, Dog Trumbull's father worked on, he did the Flying Monkeys. I may have mentioned that before. I've never looked at the Wizard of Oz and thought, well, it's good, but it's a bit small or it's good, but it needs improving. But

I don't know. I can't comment on it, but I can't say it makes my heart sing. Anyway, once people have seen it, we will obviously take what they have to say and you can send it to correspondence at codemode.com. Review a film that we can see in a conventional cinema in most places around the UK. Toby- Okay, so bring her back, which is the new film from the Philippu brothers, who are the Australian siblings who started out as YouTubers. They were known as Racka Racka and then they made that 2023 horror hit Talk To Me, which was the story of a mummified hand which gets brought out at parties and teenagers hold it and they

commune with spirits. This became a way of them getting high. Although it was like a teen horror movie, it was really a film about addiction and adolescence, and it had some really, really nasty turns to it. So this, Bring Her Back, is another occult thriller with an equally grueling edge, in fact, I think more grueling edge. This time, however, spirals around themes of grief, guilt, suppressed madness. So the story is, so there are two step-siblings

whose father has been found dead in a shower, and they are adopted by a former childcare worker and counselor played by the great Sally Hawkins. There's an older teenager, Andy, played by Billy Barrett, and his visually impaired younger sister, Piper, who is played by this extraordinary screen newcomer, Sora Wong. They arrive at Laura's house and they're introduced to her foster son, Oliver, played by Jonah Ren Phillips, who doesn't speak and is a very strange presence. Turns out that Laura, the mother, lost a daughter, also visually impaired, who drowned. And there is a suggestion that somehow this newcomer is being brought in to fill the gap

of the lost daughter. Maybe she sees her as a substitute. Meanwhile, the older boy is being sidelined and frankly, she's starting to gaslight him. So the atmosphere in the house becomes increasingly sinister. The tension is cranked up by the fact that very early on you see these fragments of really grisly videotape of what appears to be some terrible occult ceremony. There there are sly nods all the way through to these occult rituals, people making circles, drawing circles on windows, drawing circles on the floor, drawing circles in the air, all suggesting that somehow in this house,

spirits are entrapped. Here is a clip. It's an enigmatic clip, but it gives you a sense of the atmosphere. That's free. So I mean, it's hard. I know it's hard to tell what's going on, but it's so creepy. And actually, even just hearing that gives me the shivers. So the whole thing is what's going on? What's going on in the house? What's going on with the mother?

What's going on with gaslighting the brother? And what is up with Oliver, who appears to have to be locked up for ages and ages for his own safety. So I won't say anymore because the thing is the story reveals itself very slowly and it needs to do so because what it does is it builds up the sense of family dynamic, of family drama, of dysfunctional family dynamic. And then there is this atmosphere, this growing atmosphere of dread and unease. And I remember William Friedkin once said that he wanted the exorcist to feel like a cold hand on the back of the neck or the scour for it to feel like this. This feels like the clammy, cold mud of an open grave in which you have been buried alive in somehow enfolding you. At the center of it all, you have great performances. I mean, I think Sally Hawkins, who we think of as,

you know, happy-go-lucky or made in Dagenham, has this whole other side to her talents, you know, on full display in this film. But when you first meet her, she seems to be kind of, you know, ditzy and upbeat and a bit of a free spirit, but there's something much, much darker going on. Also, there is a sense that underneath it all, there is this grief and sadness. I mean, the filmmakers said, talk to me was a party movie. We wanted

to do a character study. Talk to me is oomph, oomph, oomph. This is a snowball and then a spiral out of control. So, they've also cited this genre of film, which I have to say I hadn't heard of before, Psycho Biddy, which is basically films which owe a debt to things like Whatever Happened to Baby Jane, what used to be called women's pictures, melodramas with a kind of Gothic, grand guignol overstatement about them. So those influences are all there. You get the dread, you get the anxiety, you get the grief. However, the film also has teeth. I mean, it's an 18 rated film and it's, you know, it's no surprise why when it bites you really went, I watched it in a, in a screening

room on my own and I was really glad I was on my own because I was vocalizing my reactions to certain scenes going against the code. That is, I know, honestly. And that's why I would say I was really, really glad I was done because there was things in it that were so painful to watch that I almost did the thing that I never do, which is to turn away from the screen. It was interesting afterwards, the projectionist is a friend of mine. We had a very quick chat about it. We both went, oh, there's a real atmosphere,

there's something clammy and cold and genuinely dreadful. There's a really terrific score which really gets under your skin. So great performances. And it's about something. It is about grief and sadness and loss, but it really, really knows how to turn up the horror when it needs to. And I think it's a step up from Talk to Me and I think it absolutely establishes the Philippi Brothers as the real deal. They know how to do this and they've had an extraordinary career. Apparently they started off as drivers on the Babadook, but they're here to stay and I thought this was really unsettling, really disturbing, really sad and really scary when it needed to be. Will Barron Can I just do a hat tip to everyone else who when you said psychobity, they instinctively said, fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-fuh-f say fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa But I mean both of those things. I mean, both of those things in a positive way. Yeah. Box office top 10 this week at 14 Barry Linden, the 50th anniversary, 4k

restoration, an email from Tony and Todd Madden, dear Brian and Bullingdon. I have simply never seen a film shot on film that uses low light like this. You'll notice, I think from this email, Mark, that Tony is a, um, that Tony is a connoisseur. Okay, good. Natural light and sometimes even candlelight are used in conjunction with a surprisingly tall aspect ratio, an absolutely immaculate production design to create a feeling of moving 18th century paintings. That may sound like an inert film, but there is a Condit-likelike wry humour and note-perfect performances that add a surprising

and delightful humanity to the rise and fall of the titular character. The thing about Barry Lyndon is, famously Kubrick went to NASA and asked them about lenses. He used special lenses in order to be able to shoot by candlelight. So the thing that everybody talks about with Barry Lindon is how amazing it looks. The thing that they don't talk about is how funny it is. It is a genuinely funny film. It is a genuinely funny film.

Uh, that's a 14. Number 11 is friendship. Which I thought was absolutely, was absolutely wince inducing. Again, I mean that in a good way. You know the way that I was saying the thing, but I think it's wince inducing, but in a good way. So I liked it very, very much, but it's so painful to watch. On our YouTube channel, someone called TheRealClankZoka says, it's hilarious.

The whole audience was in fits of laughter. It has that peep show vibe to it and I highly recommend it. A Ryan beard says I adored it, but I'm a bit biased because I'm a big fan of Robinson. I absolutely understand that it isn't going to be for everyone. I still think about the toad scene and laugh quite a bit. Yes. I mean, it is the toad scene is the worst trip you never had. I haven't had a trip. No, that's why I meant, well, neither have I. That's why I is the worst trip you never had. I haven't had a trip.

No, that's what I meant. Well, neither have I. That's why I said the worst trip you never had. And Carla says, this was a very tough watch in all the right ways. If you like cringe comedy, no, I don't. This is 100% for you. Okay, there you go. Well, I think we've nicely explained who this film is for and who's going to like it and

who isn't. At number 10, Sayara, an email from Peter Sisson in Gloucester. I'm presuming this wasn't press screen, so you might need a review. Is that true? Yeah, it wasn't. So thank you very much. So Peter says, Sayara is a Hindi language musical romance that takes a turn for the love story when, as in capital L, capital S, when our heroine finally gets her man at the same time as receiving a distressing medical diagnosis. It's a real rollercoaster of emotions and the music works

well bringing the story together. That's Sayara at number 10. Peter, thank you. Thank you so much for that. Number nine here, number nine in America, Lilo and Stitch. Animation to live action continues and this is why. L.E.O. is at eight. Which I liked more than some critics. It is completely mad. And that again, as we said, neither you or I have ever tripped, but watching bits of Leo felt like I had. Number 10 in America and Canada. Number seven here, 28 years later, which I think is probably

done enough to, I mean, obviously the second one is filmed already. I think they've done enough to get a third. Yes, I absolutely want there to be a third now. Number six here and six in America, how to train your dragon. Okay, you've already pronounced on that one. Once again, you know. New entry number five, I know what you did last summer. Now, we didn't review this last week because it wasn't press screened.

However, I have now seen it and we will do a full review of it in take two. We would do it in this one, but we're a bit packed in take one. So take two, if you're not subscribing, you need to subscribe to get take two. Number four here, number four over there, Smurfs. Well it's a step up for James Corbin, James Corden, pardon me, who goes from irritating rabbit to uninteresting Smurf. Well done. David Trania says, I took my three-year-old grandson to it and he was mildly diverted, but that's all. Shame, as it was his first ever trip to the cinema, I found it synthetic, derivative and mechanical. All the characters

spoke with that same ironic knowing detachment in a stream of empty quips popular in sitcoms 30 years ago. I don't know the Smurfs much, but I felt like anything that made them distinctive aside from their appearance was lost. I mean, I think three is quite young for a first cinema trip. It is, but the film does play very, very young. Number three here, five in America is F1 the movie, F1, four and so on. Top Gun, Maverick with Cars, Brad Pitt smiles and goes fast. I enjoyed it and it's doing well. I've heard so many people who've gone to see it and said, it's rubbish, but I really liked it. Number two, Jurassic World Rebirth. I think it's well directed. I think the script is really bad.

The more I think about the script, the more I think it's unforgivably poor. I thought the film itself was dull, but I think Gareth Edwards did the best he could do with it. Will Barron Number one in the North Atlantic territories and also in the UK, Superman. Paul Anthony No surprise. Superman, straight in, faster than a speeding bullet, straight in at number one. Colorful, upbeat, all over the shop. makes no sense whatsoever, but has a kind of good-hearted charm to it. And yeah, no surprise at all that it's gone in at number one. Once you've seen any of these films, do let us know your thoughts. Correspondence at kermannabeyer.com. Mark, what is coming up in our next hilarious and hugely engaging sequence on this podcast? Well, next Simon, we're going to be talking to the director of The Narrow Road to the

Deep North, the new TV mini-series. Who is? He is Justin Cazelle and you'll hear him in just a few moments, unless you're a Vanguard Easter, in which case we will just blend seamlessly like a tapestry of loveliness. Hey everybody, this is Simon and Mark. It's the summer of sport, Mark. Now, I love a bit of footy and tennis and cricket and so on. And this summer, wherever I am, Nord can help me follow along just like I was there because with coverage in 111 countries, I'm guaranteed to be able to watch wherever I go. But I don't like sports, Simon, so let me suggest the following trio of sporting films instead.

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Hey, so what did you want to talk about? Well, I want to tell you about Wagovie. Wagovie? Yeah, Wagovie. What about it? On second thought, I might not be the right person to tell you. Oh, you're not? No, just ask your doctor. About Wagovie?

Yeah, ask for it by name. Okay, so why did you bring me to this circus? Oh, I'm really into lion tamers. You know, with the chair and everything. Ask your doctor for Wagovie by name. Visit wagovi.ca for savings. Exclusions may apply. Now, this week's guest is Justin Kazell. Known for dark, uncompromising portrayals of events, real and fictional. He came to prominence with Snowtown, a retelling of an Australian high school massacre. He's gone to do commercial projects as well like Assassin's Creed and even worked with gorgeous George McKay on

the true history of the Kelly Gang. We spoke about The Narrow Road to the Deep North, his new series now on the BBC based on a book by Australian author Richard Flanagan. You'll hear a clip and then our conversation. You a gambling man? Occasionally, yeah. Ten shillings you make it through the entire year of life. Tell me how did it feel going from a soldier into a prisoner of war? To be incarcerated when others are fighting is hard for a soldier's spirit. You are here to build a railway. what do you recall most of that time?

my mother drawing because people need to know what's going on here you deserve someone who's gonna be with you. you will be with me. why Annie? why with him? he knows. Take care, Dargo. Memory is the only true justice. And that is a clip from The Narrow Road to the Deep North. Delighted to say its director, Justin Cazelle, has joined us. Justin, hello, where do we speak to you today from? In Tasmania, in Australia, actually where the book was written by Richard Flanagan.

Toby So In which case, that would seem a very appropriate place to start. So this is an extraordinary book. Just to introduce us to, this is a book, a prize-winning novel by Richard Flanagan. I think he's a friend of yours. So when did you come across this book? Did he give you a copy in advance many years ago now? Yeah, he's a family friend of my wife, Esi Davis, who's an actress. We were actually in London, living in London at the time when he won the Booker Prize. So we were there the night that he won it and spent the evening with him. So we sort of had a history with the book and we had many discussions about his father being a prisoner of war and my grandfather being

a Raddata Brooke and we sort of got to the idea that perhaps this could be a good series and it was a very, I guess, a different take of Australia's involvement in that particular war that hadn't been seen before. Mason So we did imagine it what it would be as a film, but it became a very kind of particular point of view that and perhaps one of the timelines wouldn't have been we wouldn't have been able to bring to screen. So I think having that time to be able to especially delve into the love story within the book much more and expand on that through a series was definitely an advantage. And again, I think the series helped having that longer time of five episodes to be able to go back and forth in the different

periods of time worked out really well as something a bit larger than a film. Just introduce us to the character of Dorigo Evans, just as a way of introducing us to the story played by Jacob Elordi, and then Kieran Hines as an older man. Who is he and where do we find him in the story? Darigo's, at the beginning of the story, is a young man. He's a young surgeon. He's been practicing medicine. He comes from Tasmania and he's born in a really poor family. And he sort of finds himself suddenly in, in Melbourne amongst the sort of rich and sophisticated and, uh, he, he is sort of out of his depth and he, uh, has a sort of

summer holiday where he has this sort of extraordinary affair with this woman who is actually married to his uncle. Um, she's much younger than the uncle and they have this, we call it the summer of love, where this extraordinary relationship happens over six weeks. That's it, he never sees her anymore because he's then sent off to war and in Singapore he's captured and becomes a prisoner of war and is part of building the Burma Railway and looking after all these men. It's his responsibility to keep them alive as they're dying around him and

ultimately in this series to choose those that will live and those that will die. And there's a, we see him after the war, much much much after in his seventies, looking back on that legacy, but in particular this relationship with Amy, this six weeks of love that kind of becomes this ghost love in the prison of war camp. It's the sort of love that kind of keeps him alive. And so it's quite an epic story through one man's life,

through dealing with the tragedy of Burma and what he's seen there, but also this sort of extraordinary love story that evolves from something real into sort of something in memory. How did you do the thing about balancing how his experiences during the war, in which he's having to make these decisions and having to some extent to be dispassionate, kind of form the person that he becomes, which is on the one hand, he is a great surgeon. He makes life or death decisions because he's disengaged, but he is told and he knows that

he has become emotionally withdrawn. Yeah. I mean, I think that's his greatest crisis really and dilemma that he falls in love with these men and they look to him for security and hope, really. And to many of the men who are sort of suffering from these extraordinary illnesses, or even in one of the episodes, the gangrene that develops on a man's leg, he has to cut it off and that develops on a man's leg, he has to cut it off and that man has to trust him with that surgery and what that is. I think that that's his, sort of the chain around him really is the fact that he has to be something for these men and in the end has to kind of almost play God in terms of selecting, being forced to select those that will continue at the camp and are

sick and will have to walk the death walk, which they know 100% they won't survive. He knows these men will not be alive by the time they finish this walk. And obviously that metastasizes in a way, you know, later in life where he struggles to be anything else other than the sort of Dorigo that he was during the war. There's a moment when he's accused of playing God and he says God has no place in the operating room. It's just science and a lot of the drama. It's very, it's very brutal. I do think, however, that there is a spiritual element to the story. Do you see the story as is a spiritual element to the story. Do you see the story as having a spiritual dimension to it? Yeah I mean I was I was

most moved by this notion of love in darkness and what that is and you're right Mark I guess a lot of the the films that I've done in the past have definitely put a lens on unimaginable kind of darkness and horror and kind of what that is and trying to sort of unpeel that. But I guess what was really interesting for me with this was how love can be that kind of light and hope in something that's unimaginable and how that can sort of nourish and somehow provide a way of surviving. And it wasn't, the book was never, that expression of love was never done in a trite way. It always sort of felt as though it was very, very real and authentic. So it was

probably the greatest attraction to me really was that that love story existed not in reality. It existed in Dorigo's mind and he used that memory of her and those six weeks of love to be able to create a new relationship and a companion when he was in probably the worst kind of hell. Mason- And just on those darker moments, there are some terrible experiences in the camp, some terrible experiences on the railroad. As the director, what effect does that have on set? Do people dread these scenes? Do they look forward to them? What is the impact

of those particular scenes on the Japanese actors you're working with and the Australians? Well, I think you go into it with a book like this and also the, obviously, the true history of what happened. And through the research that the actors did, there's always an enormous amount of gravitas to it before going in. But in particular, there's a particular scene in episode four, I think that that was a, you know, it was a day that we all knew was sort of coming and, and, and, and, and I could sense that too, in terms of the Japanese actors of kind of, you know, the, the sensitivity of how they were being portrayed of, you know, the sensitivity of how they were being

portrayed and, you know, really making sure that the point of view was right and that they felt comfortable with that. I mean, it's interesting, you know, we spent a lot of time rehearsals and a lot of those Japanese actors who were very young, you know, sort of talk about what happened in Japan sort of talk about what happened in Japan at the time and how they view the legacy of war through their parents and their grandparents. And it's actually not spoken of enormously. So it was really interesting to be having very sort of frank and open and honest conversations about what that legacy is and what that relationship is with people, especially young people living in

Japan now, to what happened all those years ago. When David Putnam had made Midnight Express, he then went on his next film, like on The Rebound, was Chariots of Fire. Did this, working on this story, did it make you want to go on and do something like Charity of Fire, just to change the mood? I was very taken and very moved, I thought surprisingly on set, by the love story, by working a lot with Jacob and Odessa Young. There was something that I felt as I wanted to explore more there. So it's

interesting at the moment, I'm actually looking for a lot of love stories and a lot of things that are quite different from what I've done before. And there was certainly an aspect of making this series and being able to, because we shot it all in sections, very strong sections. So we started off shooting the love story and that took about sort of three or four weeks and it really felt like a completely different film. And then the boys went off and lost the weight. And we were filming then the period of time where, you know, with Kiran Hines, where he was an older Dorago, which felt like a completely different film as well. And then finished with the boys

in the camp. So it was especially that first section working with those two, there was something really interesting about completely and utterly being in a kind of pure love story and filming that that I'd like to do more of actually. I just wanted to ask, Simon was talking about how difficult it is to address those scenes, those scenes of brutality. There is a moment of reconciliation towards the end, and I know it's fleeting, but in which the Kieran Hines incarnation of the character is told by a Japanese delegation, the things we did were, and Kieran Hines says something to the effect of, they were long

ago, they were in the past. Since so much of the mini-series, and I confess I they were in the past. Since so much of the miniseries, and I confess I haven't read the book, since so much of the miniseries is about memory, it is also about the way that these things do persist, but they are in the past. They do belong to a different country. I wonder whether you think that in the end, the story, the arc of the story is one of healing, is one of coming to terms with very, very dark matter. Yeah, completely. I think that the series is about memory and not losing memory and

things not disappearing. And those voices and those experiences from the past and the events not disappearing and being talked about. Not only the people that were involved and the relations that were close to them and the countries that were affected, but also I think for a new generation. My daughters are 19 and I remember sitting in the lounge room as a boy with my grandfather, you know, not being able to speak, going off and drinking throughout the day and really being kind of in this fog of war. Whereas, you know, my daughter's, it's so, so distant sort of what that legacy here in Australia was. So I do think that, you know, having those conversations and having series like these made and, and, you know, having war memorials that a young generation can go to and have an active

engagement with only allows those memories not to fade and for there to be a continuous conversation about them and to somehow speak to now. I think that the series, there are a lot of things while we're making the series that definitely felt as though they were rubbing up to tensions and conversations about the hostilities in the world now. And just before you go, Justin, we have an Ellis Park movie to look forward to, your documentary coming out in a couple of months. Can you just tee that up for us so that when we get to September, I think it is, we're looking forward to it.

Yeah, it's about Warren Ellis, the great Warren Ellis. Fantastic. The great Warren Ellis. I know Mark, you've spoken to him about Nina Simone's gun, but he approached me in Cannes and had sort of told me what he was doing through COVID. And he said, yeah, yeah, I've bought a, I bought some land, I bought a wildlife sanctuary in Sumatra. And I went what? And he said, Yeah, I'm saving monkeys, working with people. And, you know, and I've never been there. And I've got this kind of I've got Nina Simone's gum, this beautiful

piece of gum that I sort of stole under Nina Simone's piano. And I want to, I want to do a kind of, you know, 12 foot sculpture of it out of marble and row it down the river in Sumatra and Herzog like Fitzcarraldo like kind of deliver it to the park. And I was so taken by the story of it. I said, I have to film that. And then we sort of realized that the river was only about sort of a foot deep and it was probably going to be impossible. And it was a bit audacious, the idea of sort of rowing up a Nina Simone gum 12 be impossible. And it was a bit audacious, the idea of sort of rowing up a Nina Simone gum 12 foot high. So it actually became this beautiful documentary

about him visiting the park for the first time, which is this incredible wildlife sanctuary where this group of people really sort of take care and save and rehabilitate animals that are being smuggled out of the country and animals that are being kind of used on the streets like dancing monkeys that are suddenly kind of re, you know, retaken in and given a new life and some sort of dignity. And it's, yeah, it's about Warren's life as a musician, about his sort of healing in a way and as a, as, as a person and, uh, how he creates as an artist and how that sort of leads to this sort of extraordinary park and him arriving for the first time to, um, to see it and be amongst it.

Um, but he's great. He's very engaging. It's very, very funny. And, um, yeah, sorry, Mark. No, no, I just want to show you that I have around my neck Nina Simone's gum. The one gave to me, I have one of the silver ones, yeah, which I wear all the time. There it is. Oh, fantastic.

Nina Simone's chewing gum. Oh, fantastic. No, he told me that great, he told me that great story of him having found the tapes of that particular concert, the Nina Simone sort of last concert and whether he should play it or not on your show. And I think that both of you agreed to not do it and keep it as a mystery, which I thought was very good. Well, Ellis Park comes our way in the UK 26th of September. The Narrow Road to the Deep North is on BBC iPlayer.

Now Justin Cazelle, a privilege to speak to you, so thank you very much indeed for your time. Thank you very much. So our thanks to Justin Cazelle. The Narrow Road to the Deep North is on iPlayer as I mentioned. Um, it's very interestingly placed Mark, um, on Sunday night at nine o'clock because this isn't really the kind of drama I think that people expect to see on Sunday night, which is kind of, well, you know, a little bit pannington, a little bit cozy.

Let's see how we can set people up for the week. This is an interesting programming choice, I think. Will Barron Okay. Well, that's an interesting thing, particularly to me, because I don't think I knew it was Sunday at nine o'clock, largely because the whole series is on iPlayer. What I did, as I mentioned that thing, was I sat down and binged it. And of course, I realize now that you're saying that, that I've become so used to doing that,

that I've become kind of disconnected from the broadcast schedule. So you're right, that is an unusual placement. But I mean, I wonder, because obviously I know Justin Cazelle's stuff as a filmmaker. And so I'm kind of inclined to even watch the mini series as a film. So I just blocked out, you know, and watch the entire thing on iPlay. And I think, I think a surprising number of people will do that.

Do you think people will watch it episodically on Sunday nights like that? Yeah, it's a tricky one. I don't think so. I think more people than we expect will do it that way. An older generation will expect to just watch it on a week-by-week basis. I don't know. Many people will just maybe they'll watch two or three at a time. I just think it's, I mean, maybe it doesn't matter anymore, but you're not nine o'clock on a Sunday is cozy crime, which this certainly isn't. But what a fascinating man to speak to. Yes. And also clearly we didn't have time to talk about it. This book is a very important book. This story is a very important story in Australia,

particularly. Like you, I hadn't read the book, but it's a big deal, this book. Yes, it is. When I went to Google the title, Now I Road to the Deep North, the first thing that I discovered is that that title has many echoes dating back to the poet Matsubashō. There is a 1968 satirical play by Edward Bond, which is apparently a political parable set in Japan during the Edo period, same title. Then of course, I didn't realize even because I'm very ignorant that the title itself was alluding to this whole history. My first encounter with the story was in watching the mini-series. When the mini-series began, I didn't know anything at all. I hadn't watched any of the trailers.

I just knew that we were going to be interviewing Justin. As he said, it's very complicated because it's playing out in three separate time periods that are intertwined and that seem to be in conversation with themselves and with each other. And as I think Justin said in that interview, incidentally, if you're watching this review on YouTube, go back and watch the Justin Kurzel interview that Simon just did before listening to the rest of this because it's really, really important because he laid out so much of what's important about the series. It's about memory and it's about dealing with the past and accepting the past whilst also putting the past to rest. So that idea of the tension between the past, the present, and the future,

the state of mind of characters being informed by the past but not being necessarily entrapped by the past is all going on. And actually this relates back to what you were saying about if you watched it episodically over a series of weeks, I think that actually would perhaps enhance that experience, perhaps because you're doing a similar thing which is you're remembering the episodes that you've seen, rather than watching them as a single run. It's about memory, it's about national memory, but it's also about personal trauma. As I said, the central character who in his later incarnation

is played so brilliantly by Kieran Hines is somebody who is emotionally remote, which makes him a great surgeon, but also doesn't necessarily make him a great person. I didn't know going in how brutal the tough parts of the story were and I think I was surprised by just how unflinching it is. There is a particular sequence and I think it's episode four, it's one in one of the later episodes in which there is, and you were talking to Justin about this, about what was it like for the actors to play this particular scene, which is a scene of horrific cruelty. It's directed rather brilliantly in as much as it's close when it

needs to be close and it backs off when it needs to back off. But from the very, very beginning, there are scenes that I think some people will find surprising on television because what we're dealing with is a really, really grim situation of people who are suffering, starving, and then, in various states of physical disrepair and it's to do with surgery. I think the word unflinching is fair. Don't you think that it is? I think you said to me when we were speaking beforehand that you'd read a review in which somebody had said you keep expecting him to cut away and then he does. Yeah, I think it's the FT review. You do expect him and us to look away at a particular point

and we don't, we stay there. Yeah. Yeah. I do think Kieran Hines is outstanding, absolutely outstanding. I think Odessa Young is terrific and I have liked her very much in films like Mothering Sunday, which I thought she was great in. Jacob Elordi, of course, you know, Euphoria, Priscilla, Saltburn, On Swift Horses, which I saw when I was in Croatia. He's about to be Heathcliff in Emerald Fiddle's Wuthering Heights. Then he's the monster in Del Toro's Frankenstein. His career has been so- And might be James Bond, apparently.

The last I heard, I thought it was Josh O'Connor. So is it now Jacob Elordi is the frontrunner? Honestly, no one knows, but if you're good looking and under 30, I think the chances are someone is going to suggest you. Yeah, okay, fine. But I think of all the roles that he's done, this is the most challenging. I think this is the biggest stretch. Obviously, we haven't seen the biggest stretch. This is the one, I mean, obviously we haven't seen Wuthering Heights or anything else yet, but this is the one which is the most demanding, which is the one that requires most for him to step out of whatever comfort zone he might be in. And it's also, I think, the great challenge of, you're going to play a character and incidentally, in their later life, that character is going to be played by Kieran

Hines. Step up. And of course, Kieran Hines was in, when we were talking to Maxine Peake a few weeks ago, Words of War, in that film, Kieran Hines is a Russian newspaper editor. Yes, that's right. And now he's an Australian surgeon and former soldier. Which is of course active. He was multiply nominated for his role in Kenneth Branagh's Belfast. I think he was

nominated on both sides of the Atlantic for his work in that. I mean, I think you watch this and you realize why he's had the stellar career that he has, because there is nothing that he can't do. But one thing he is very good at doing is saying little but expressing lots. The stoic role is something that he does rather brilliantly. Please do get in touch correspondence at kerbidameo.com. And you know what we need, Mark, now after all that darkness? We need that David Putnam twist from Midnight Express to Chance of Fire. You know what we need? Do you know what we need?

Light relief? Yeah, it's the laughter lift. So that's, I'm afraid, what we've got. Here we go. Oh, God. Well, Mark, I can see there's a smile playing on your lips. We'll soon have to get rid of that. have to get rid of that. Mark, here's the thing. Here's the thing. I've realized that I hate Russian dolls, don't you? They're so full of themselves. Hey! But breaking news, I have some extraordinary news from my neighbor, Katie, up the road. I must have mentioned her to you before. She's already got nine sons called Norbert, Robert, Humbert,

Cuthbert, Hubert, Engelbert, Egbert, Ethelbert and Delbert and she's just had another boy and named him Filbert. She's definitely not using Burt Control as far as I can tell. Anyway, best wishes regardless Katie on that one. Burt Control, I mean, really? I've been using the world's worst thesaurus this week to help me expand by vocabulary whilst writing my new bestseller. Not only is it bad, it's bad. I quite like that, you see? That's quite a good joke. That's quite a good joke.

Okay, Mark, sell me on your review of the last film that we're going to be reviewing. What's coming next? Coming next, Fantastic Four, the first steps after this. The new BMO VI Porter MasterCard is your ticket to more. More perks. More points. More flights.

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all while getting help from an expert who actually knows small businesses. Got a tattoo studio? Toy store? Tiny but mighty taco stand? We've got someone who gets small business taxes inside and out. Experts are standing by to help and review while you file, so you know your return's done right. Intuit TurboTax business, new from TurboTax Canada. Some regional exclusions apply. Learn more at TurboTax.ca slash business tax. An email from Killian in Ireland. I don't suppose it's that Killian.

It could be. I'm responding to the listener from last week's show who unfortunately saw behind the curtain and realized that their screening was being cast to their cinema screen from an iPad. I have some inside baseball with a former art house cinema projectionist. Okay. So some secret knowledge inside information. Indeed, I had a similar experience as a young teen when I went to see a screening of Back to the Future in a cinema and I saw for a split second a DVD menu before the film began. No. I hate to say it, but yes, sometimes when you go to the cinema, especially if it's to see an older film, you could be watching a Blu-ray disc. I apologise on behalf of all projectionists.

In an ideal scenario, any film requested by a cinema's programming team and signed off by the studio will be provided as a digital cinema package, basically a huge digital file delivered on a massive hard drive or as a satellite download, or better still, a 35mm film print. Since our Irish art house cinema was sharing film distributors with the rest of Ireland and the UK, sometimes all copies of a film would be in use elsewhere, or the film in question never had a theatrical run

in the UK and Ireland. And so the distributor would give their blessing to screen a Blu-ray disc. On only two occasions did I encounter films that never had a theatrical run and also never had a Blu-ray version published, and so I was forced to play a DVD. And let me tell you, a DVD on a 50-foot screen is suboptimal, to say the least. But projectionists play all sorts of strange formats from time to time.

On one occasion, I played a live TV broadcast on a cinema screen for a sponsored premiere screening of Love Island. Imagine the joy. I remember the sponsor gave their welcome speech to the audience a good 15 minutes ahead of the start time and then radioed me to say, okay, start the show, to which I had to awkwardly respond, it's a live broadcast. I can't choose when it begins. As to why this projectionist in question had to resort to an iPad, I can only imagine the panic in the projection booth as they realized last minute they'd been caught out with no DCP file or Blu-ray. Thank God the iPad was fully charged at least. Hello to Jason and good luck to whoever they have cast to replace him in the new HBO Harry Potter series, Killian from Ireland. Thank you Killian for explaining the circumstances under which we

might just see a DVD. Wow. Wow. That is genuinely worrying stuff. Yeah. But an interesting bit of inside information. So it sounds like it's very, very unlikely and only in extremis, but I wonder how many... There might be some cinemas that aren't as upright as the one Kinney is talking about. Anyway, let's talk about the Fantastic Four because they're back. Okay. Yes. Fantastic Four, first steps. This is the 37th film in the, I mean, I lose track of all of this stuff. 37th film in the Marvel Cinematic Universe, early salvo in phase six of the MCU, the second reboot of the Fantastic Four film series, which previously included 2005's Fantastic Four, 2007's Rise of the Silver Surfer,

by the Tim Story films, then followed in 2015 by the disastrous Josh, you know, Fant4Stick, which lost something like a hundred million dollars and killed the franchise. There was also, of course, the unreleased Roger Corman film in the early 90s, which I quite got to the bottom of why it was never released. I think it was only made as a contractual thing in order to hang onto it. Anyway, never happened. So now, Reborn under new directorship, Matt Shackman, who is a graduate of, among other things, WandaVision, Fargo, and Game of Thrones. This is set in a future retro world, Earth 828, 828, which is sort of like an alternative world. All the designs are eye-catchingly 60s style modernity. Honestly, even if you don't like the film, it is absolutely worth it for the furniture,

for the cars, for the costumes, for the eye candy. I was kind of in heaven with that. More than a touch of the Incredibles about the way the film looks. I mean, it's live action, but there's also, you know, there's stretchable characters and the design is very, very Incredibles. It's also on the sunnier side of the superhero street. I mean, it's 12a for moderate threat and violence, but it's definitely the softer end of 12a. So Fantastic Four, played by Pedro Pascal, Vanessa Kirby, Eben Moss Bachrach and Joseph Quinn, are about to become five because Sue Storm is expecting. What no one is expecting, unless the people who'd seen one of the previous Silver Surfer films, one of the previous Fantastic Four films, is the arrival of a silver surfing figure,

variously described as a naked space woman and a sexy alien who announces that Earth is about to be eaten alive. Here's a clip. Are you the protectors of this world? Yes, we are. Your planet is now marked for death. Your world will be consumed by the Devourer. There is nothing you can do to stop him, for he is a universal force,

as a sensuous as stars. Hold your loved ones close, and speak the words you've been afraid to speak. I herald his beginning, I herald his beginning, I herald your end, I herald Galactus. So the Fantastic Four, soon to be five, must put their spacesuits on, fantastic looking spacesuits, head off at light speed in pursuit of the silver surfing figure in an attempt to head off Galactus, all the while remembering that there is a baby on the way that might arrive at any time.

So as with the recent Superman reboot, which we were talking about in the charts, this is, I mean, the plot is kind of all over the place and it pimpels around the laws of physics and the laws of narratives with what can only be described as gay abandon. There is a fair amount of the usual smashy, crashy, vast destructo stuff of, you know, that's there, that's now become a sort of absolute part of these dramas and I have to say it's always the least interesting part. However, what this lacks in coherence to some extent, it makes up for in being so resolutely good-natured. The cast all keep admirably straight faces,

but the tone is gently comedic with an undercurrent of the nostalgic family values that you would expect to find on Walton Mountain. I mean, it's that kind of retro. There's a comedy domestic robot with these tape recorders, so very, very 60s retro design. There's some stuff when they're doing recordings, they're doing recordings by cutting basically vinyl, So they've got like LPs of recordings. There's a nice running joke about rock face Ben not wanting to say, you know, what time is it? I don't do that.

That's from the cartoon. And there is also some really elegant stuff in space of spaceships waltzing together, which kind of looked a bit like a cross between the docking scene from Kubrick's 2001 and the design of Airge's, you know, Tintin destination moon. You remember the rocket that they go to the moon in? Yes. Which, I mean, I just love the way that stuff looks. Even when there's a moment when, as has to happen in any of these movies, the whole world turns against the superheroes.

They're basically quite a good-natured crowd who are eminently appeasable and everyone is basically decent. So imagine the world of, remember that film Don't Worry Darling recently? Then it was this sort of sinister 60s set up. You know, nothing, there has to be something sinister underneath. It's like that, but there's nothing sinister underneath. It's like Mad Men, but not in an ironic way as far as the design's concerned. And at first, I confess, I couldn't quite get with it. At first I was like, I can't quite get the tone of this. But I did find

myself being gradually won over. Paul Walter Hauser is on screen. Paul Walter Hauser, who we had on the show, he's on screen for a very few moments and he very nearly steals the whole film. Mark Gatiss is in it. He's this kind of TV host with an Ed Sullivan greasy hair design. He has a bril cream rather than grease. Ralph Innocent does a surprisingly good job of playing a character who is described by the filmmaker as a humongous 14 billion year old planet devouring cosmic vampire. Also, he's a huge fan of the Richard Gere remake of Abu D'Souf, Breathless, in which he goes on about the silver surfer a lot. It was good to hear the power cosmic being invoked. When it did, I chuckled to myself. I went in

with low expectations because I went in thinking, I didn't know anything about it other than it's another Fantastic Four movie. But I was won over. The design is terrific. I love the design and probably that explains a lot of my affection towards it. Everyone plays it in a kind of retro, it's almost like The Waltons, but in a future retro world with some outer space stuff in it. It's just very, very likable. It's also admirably under two hours long, which is not something that happens very often with superhero movies anymore. It's 114 minutes and you can stay to the end because there's a mid-roll bit which you should stay for. There's also a bit at the end, which is not essential, but it's nice to stay for because it's a kind of retro thing. Whole thing, all finished in 114 minutes. I enjoyed it and I was really pleasantly surprised. I said it is the sunny side of the superhero street,

and the design is to die for. Mason- Okay. Look forward to that. Fantastic four first steps. Correspondence at koenamer.com, before we're done, an email from Florian Fischer of Baden-Württemberg and Hornsey. Dear Dr. Leder and Professor Hosen, recent talk of Mark and the Dodge Brothers' appearance at the Tiroler Festspieler in, in quotes, Bavaria, in quotes, to play live music for Murnau City Girl, greatly confused this southern German from a different nearby German state. I was glad you did establish that Munich is indeed not only in Bavaria, the largest of Germany's 16 states, but it's very capital. Yes. While recording the show from there, the football club Bayern Munich literally means Bavaria. The largest of Germany's 16 states, but it's very capital. While recording

the show from there, the football club Bayern Munich literally means Bavaria Munich. But Tirol anything implies it took place in the Austrian state of Tirol, which borders on the German state of Bavaria. And how could this be? Well, a brief online search explained a very understandable confusion, especially to an island dweller, not used to borders. The Tiroler Feshbiler, an EU initiative twinned with a film music festival across the border in an adjacent Bavarian village to create a common program across venues. The glowing review of your showing of City Girl, Mark, that I read, revealed that you performed it in the festival hall of the village of Earl in Tyrol, Austria, while other events were held in the village of Oberdorf in Bavaria in Germany, which to confuse you further is south of Earl because

borders go zigzag and poke hither and thither. You may have driven there and crossed into Austria without noticing. Little old Austria borders on no less than eight other nations. Both these states have particularly strong identities within their nations, which is why Werner Herzog likes to point out that Bavarian isn't the same as German. Coincidentally, Herzog means Duke, and hundreds of years ago, the Tyrol used to be its own entity under a Duke or Duchess. Its southernmost part now lies in Italy. And as it's, I hope you're following this, as its own province under the name of Alto Adige, this Alpine overlap has its own cultural heritage that occasionally still crosses modern borders, as you must have done unnoticed under Schengen rules.

Long may they continue. Laederhosen, for example, are said to originate in Tyrol and originally have nothing to do with Germans. Take the tongue and neither mit den Nazis. Florian Fisher, Baden-Württemberg. So there you go. So you were Germany and Austria. I was, and I didn't realise it until I was in Austria. And then I said, you know, somebody said to me, we're in Austria now. I said, when did that happen? They went, well, just two minutes back when we went over the river. And it was literally, we went over the bridge. And then when we, when we finished, we went back over the bridge because

the festival, the organization of the festival was done on the other side of the bridge. But it was, it was indeed a cross border affair. And incidentally, if there's a review that was glowing, can you send it to me? Cause I haven't seen any reviews because obviously they're all in foreign. Okay. Florian, if you could send that and we appreciate you getting in touch. Thank you very much. That's the end of take one. This has been a Sony Music Entertainment production. This week's team was Jen, Eric, Josh and Heather, producer, Jim, redactor, Poole Face. And if you're not following the pod already, please do so wherever you get your podcasts. Mark, what is your film of the week? My film of the week is Bring Her Back, but I assume that your film of the week would

be, although you haven't seen it yet, Fantastic Four, and our TV show of the week is definitely The Narrow Road. I think that's everything covered. It certainly is. Thank you very much, Steve, for listening. Take Two has landed in fertile territory right alongside this podcast. Please subscribe, please become a Vanguard Easter, and we'll talk to you soon.