Kermode & Mayo’s Take - FIVE NIGHTS AT FREDDY’S 2: “I was struggling to stay awake” + Legendary James L Brooks

Episode Date: December 4, 2025

Some exciting news—The Take is now on Patreon: www.patreon.com/kermodeandmayo.  Become a Vanguardista or an Ultra Vanguardista to get video episodes of Take Two every week, plus member‑only chat rooms, polls and submissions to influence the show, behind‑the‑scenes photos and videos, the monthly Redactor’s Roundup newsletter, and access to a new fortnightly LIVE show—a raucous, unfiltered lunchtime special with the Good Doctors, new features, and live chat so you can heckle, vote, and have your questions read out in real time.  We have a bonafide film and TV legend in our midst this week: director of ‘Broadcast News’, ‘Terms of Endearment’ and ‘As Good As It Gets’—not to mention co-creator of The Simpsons—James L Brooks. He talks to Simon about his new comedy drama ‘Ella McCay’—his first film in 15 years. He unpacks the movie starring Emma Mackey (yes, the names are confusing), Jamie Lee Curtis, Woody Harrelson and Jack Lowden—and tells us why he’s nostalgic for 2008. Plus a bit of Simpsons chat—there are a few very familiar voices in this movie!   Mark reviews Eternity—the new A24 afterlife romcom that sees Elizabeth Olsen torn between two dead husbands, played by Miles Teller and Callum Turner. Plus we’ve got his verdict on the new film from exiled Iranian filmmaker Jafar Panahi too--’It Was Just an Accident’. This latest daring project has seen the banned filmmaker issued a jail sentence from the Iranian government. And finally, Five Nights at Freddy’s 2....You might remember how much Mark loved the first one (not)... but could the sequel win him over? Spoilers: it doesn’t—but strap in for a review that might be more entertaining than the movie.  All the box office top 10 news for you too, plus the weekly hilarity of the laughter lift. Enjoy!   Our LIVE Christmas Extravaganza at London’s Prince Edward Theatre is this weekend! Join us on 7th December—with special guest Nia DaCosta, and Jason Isaacs beaming in from the USA. Tickets here: fane.co.uk/kermode-mayo      Timecodes (for Vanguardistas listening ad-free)  Eternity review: 09:10  BO10: 19:50  James L Brooks Interview: 37:10  It Was Just An Accident review: 52:30 Laughter Lift: 1:02:32  Five Nights at Freddy’s 2 review: 01:07:32 Jay Kelly review: 01:14:41      You can contact the show by emailing [e-mail] or you can find us on social media, @KermodeandMayo  Please take our survey and help shape the future of our show: https://www.kermodeandmayo.com/survey   EXCLUSIVE NordVPN Deal ➼ https://nordvpn.com/take Try it risk-free now with a 30-day money-back guarantee!  A Sony Music Entertainment production.      Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts and follow us @sonypodcasts    To advertise on this show contact: [e-mail]  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This episode is brought to you by Mooby, the global film company that champions great cinema. From iconic directors to emerging otters, there is always something new to discover. With Mooby, each and every film is hand-selected so you can explore the best of cinema. This festive season, you can find a collection of film streaming on Moobie in the UK that explore the connections between food and cinema. Including streaming now on Mooby, Phantom Thread. If you've been to the cinema and you've seen one back, battle after another and you think, wow, that Paul Thomas Anderson, he can really direct. Then check

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we're offering listeners a discount on Nord's two-year plan. With NordVPN, you can travel the world faster than a private jet minus the carbon footprint. Unwrap a huge discount on NordVPN by heading to NordVPN.com slash take. Plus, with our link,

you'll get an extra form for free on the two-year plan and it's risk-free with Nord's 30-day money-back guarantee. Check the link in the description. Before we begin, a quick reminder that you can become a Vanguard Easter and get an extra episode every Thursday. Including bonus reviews. Extra viewing suggestions. Viewing recommendations at home and in cinemas.

Plus your film and non-film questions answered as best we can in questions, Schmessians. You can get all that extra stuff via Apple Podcasts or head to extra takes.com for non-fruit-related devices. There's never been a better time to become a Vanguard Easter. Free offer, now available, wherever you get your podcasts. And if you're already a Vanguard Easter, we salute you. but take one is here. Mark is wearing a promotional t-shirt for his band, which in the old days would have been disallowed. I remember being asked to take off a West Wing t-shirt on the day of the American election. Really? Yes, because this is on the BBC days, because we'd be viewed on webcam. You know your t-shirt, which just has a list of people in the band. This was just a list of the characters in the West Wing. And it was considered to indicate bias. And so therefore I had to put a jumper on.

The bias being that if you like West Wing, you're clearly not a Republican. I mean, to be honest, it seems a weird thing to say when you're covering, you know, a UK radio station. But anyway, so it doesn't matter because that says the Dodge Brothers, not only that, it looks like a new Dodge Brothers. No, this is actually the last of the vintage series. This is the original Dodge Brothers designs all done by Jules Barham, who designed some of the Clash album covers like Sand and Easter. and this is the very, very last one, Ali was just going through the stuff that we had left over and he happened to have this.

And so, yeah, I would just, it's a vintage moment for the... Okay, I would make a good gift for the skiffle fan in your life. Don't you think? Which skiffle fan is that? Well, I don't know, just in case people have big... Here's the best thing. I was doing a thing at a recording studio in Soho in showbiz, central London.

And into the room walks Billy Bragg and Chris Packham. And Billy Bragg insisted that we had a photograph taken of the three oldest quiffs in town. There's a song in there. You could redo the oldest swinger in town. Oh, God, I've forgotten that. Who was that buying? That could be a quiff supergroup, don't you think? Yeah.

Who did the oldest swinger? Chris likes his music. Oh, it's Fred wedlock. Fred Wedlock, yeah, so, yeah, so Chris Packham likes punk, doesn't he? He's a big punk fan. Billy Bragg is Billy Bragg, and I like Skiff. And so I think that's the most quiff tat. That's like the stray cats rock on, and they become the quiff masters.

And that's you guys. Can you think of a geriatric name for the stray cats with three very old people? And here's the other hilarious thing. It turned out that Chris Packham and I have the same hearing aids. Well, who knew? Certainly not me. And then Billy Bragg said, yeah,

I'm the only one in this lot who doesn't have hearing loss. That's what comes of 40 years of touring on your own without a drummer. Okay, yeah, I suppose that makes sense. Quiffmaster Central has been suggested. Oh, that's good.

I like that. Okay, so there's a supergroup, like an ambition thing. So you've done that, that thing you did with the three, not the four. So this is your project for next year. Yeah, that'd be very good. Me, Chris Pack and Billy Bragg, the superannuated cats.

Yeah. You've already got the photographs, so everything else, you just need to get together and make some music somehow. Fantastic. So later on in this here episode of the show, Mark will be talking animatedly about these films. Well, we have a very interesting run of films in this week show. We have Eternity,

which is the new A-24 comedy Five Nights at Freddy's Two and I know that you've been waiting on that since Five Nights at Freddy's One. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, very much. It was just an accident, which is a new film, Bajafar Panahi, and Jay Kelly is now coming to Netflix.

You did the interview with Noel Bound back last week, and I said we'd review it this week. And we have a very special guest on this week's show. Legendary director James L. Brooks talking about his new film, Ella McKay, which Mark will review on next week's show. may we all get you know it's an interesting conversation but may we all be as bright and lively and interesting at 85 as james l brooks we had a rule on when i was seeing five live someone suggested

a guest if they were over 80 it would be unlikely that they get on really yeah because in general it was like a 25 minute live radio interview um on the basis of quite a lot of experience um a lot of 80 plus didn't make it. But James Earl Brooks is absolutely on it and you can hear his conversation a bit later on. What are you going to be talking about in our sub pod? When I say sub, I mean subscriber. So sub isn't going to work anymore.

Not our sub dom pod. Now our subscriber pod, Take 2, Mark. A review of a very interesting documentary from the maker of a bunch of amateurs, still pushing pineapples. If you've ever wondered what happened to the people that brought you Agadu, this will tell you.

Okay. All right, that's coming up in Take 2. plus all the extra stuff, including details of all the best and worst films on television over the weekend. Further discussion on Adam Sandler's best dramatic roles in one frame back. I think for that when we get there, we should just say, okay, there's punch, drunk love, and then. Yes, everything else. And then there's everything else. So I think we should probably do that. And question, Schmessens, including this question, what was the biggest cinematic, out loud, gasping, what the actual moment that you've ever witnessed?

interesting. You can get access to that over at Patreon. Correspondence at covenomero.com. That's where you need to send your correspondence. Paul Larkin hello to Spurs and Argo, long time listener, third time emailer. I write to ask a question.

From my many years of listening, I always like the references to showbiz North London, which conjures up images of everything from on the buses to carry on films. Indeed, I'd always took Mr. Mayo as a lifetime resident of said place. Imagine my surprised then when I'm watching late night BBC 2 that Mr Mayo's top of the pop's debut he described

himself as coming from Nottinghamshire clarification required please well that opening that if that's indeed what was on I was introduced I think the Pet Shop boys and it was just like a walk-on appearance in which I forgot to look at the camera excellent so therefore not particularly fantastic but also So I was on Radio Nottingham at the time. So that's, and I was living in Nottingham, Shihar, I was living in Nottingham. So that's why it may will have been. But as soon as you've got the Top of the Pops gig, you immediately relocated the showbiz North London, because that's how it works.

You go on Top of the Pops. They give you a house in North London. Yeah. Would that be so? I remember getting the tube back from Top of the Pops and the Good Lady's ceramicist her indoors saying, if only that they'll, obviously, if you present Top of the Pops, You are big, shiny, spangly and showbiz. If only they knew you got 75 quid.

And that's it. You know, so it was, and I did that plus one other show, for which I think I got 400 quid. So did it come out of the horseshoe in White City? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow. Absolutely.

They were, them the old days. But anyway, Paul says not so showbiz guernsey. Anyway, so at the time, when I was, when I started on Radio One, I was working for Eddie in Nottingham and lived in Nottingham, hence the Knott's reference. Matthew Kirscher in Mill Hill, Dear Doctor's Film, I'm writing to you with regard to your comment about pluralising Doctor Who to Doctors Who versus Doctor Who's, which I did and you commented on. It reminded me of an ongoing conversation with my daughters after we watched an episode of Peep Show, in which Mark Corrigan, played by David Mitchell, refers to multiple packets of pot noodle as pot's noodle. Very good. For some reason, this got us into thinking about the Star Wars franchise.

For a star, it's really only one war across multiple stars. So it should really be Stars War. The problem with Stars War, it sounds as though Peter or Alexander may be part of the Stars War family. Anyway, but also within the franchise, we started discussing whether the character Jar Jar Bink should actually be Jars Jar Bink. And once you start thinking like this, you see it everywhere. Fruits Pastel, Fords Focus, Penguins Classic. It's become a terrible habit for me,

which I hope you will now join me in. Hello to Jason's, Isaac, and Jeremy's Iron. Yours and Silly, Matthew, and do you know what, Matthew? I suspect that probably will become a thing. Whenever, fruits, pastel just has a... That is the way it's going to be wine's gum. Can I...

You're going to the service station. That'll be £150 for your petrol. and can I have a packet of wines gum, please? No, you're an idiot. Correspondence at covetammer.com. Okay, let's check out a film that's cool and groovy that we might as go and see. While we're in a laughing mood, eternity,

which is a sort of a screwball comedy style, romantic fantasy starring Elizabeth Olson, Miles Teller, both of him also get exact producer credits. And Callum Turner, who is soon to be seen in Rose of Nevada, which is the new film from Mark Jenkin, which is coming out next year, in which I've already seen absolutely fabulous, also features Divine Joy Randolph.

So directed by David Frayne, who co-wrote the film with, and I think this must be pronounced, Pat C-U-N-N-A-N-A-N-E, whose original script was on the Blacklist. And we say this every time. The Blacklist is this list of the best unproduced screenplays, which has become kind of the hunting ground for great new scripts. So the story is an elderly couple are on their way to a gender reveal party, and the guy is being grumpy. He says, you know, people die at these events. And they're quietly arguing about the fact that he likes the beach and she likes, you know, mountain tops. They're just having one of those kind of, you know, old couple, you know, you're grumpy, she's, she's sunny. We also learn that she is ill, although she says, don't tell the family yet. Just let me have this. Anyway, then they get to the party and at the party, there is a box of old pictures of the old woman, one of which is,

is a picture of her younger, played by Elizabeth Olson, with her very handsome first husband, played by Callum Turner, who died in the war, at which point her current husband chokes on a pretzel, dies, wakes up in a kind of matter of life and death afterlife, now as the happiest incarnation of himself, i.e., now he's Miles Teller, because this is the period when he was happiest. Turns out he's in a holding station. This isn't heaven, it isn't hell, it isn't purgatory, it's a holding station.

This is where you go, where you decide which eternity you're going to go to. If you've ever seen the Exodus 3, it's very much like that scene in the Exorcist 3, which is a train station with trains that will take you to elsewhere. And newcomers are assigned a guide to help them decide which eternity they're going to go to.

They're going to go to Beach World. They're going to go to Mountain World. There's somewhere called Smokers World. There's lots of adverts. Smokers world. Cancer can only kill you once, can't kill you twice. And then there's also a world which is Germany before the war, 100% less Nazis now. But we're also told that once you've chosen that world, you can't change your mind. So we see somebody being dragged out shouting, museum world sucks, I can't look at another picture. So he goes, okay, all right, well, you know,

I'm sure that my wife would like Mountain World and she's dying. So I'll just wait here for her. Or no, maybe I'll go off and, you know, set everything up for us. You know, no, no, just wait here. She'll be along in a bit. And in a bit, indeed, as we knew at the beginning, she does indeed turn up. And her husband is there to greet her. But so is her first husband who has been waiting in this holding station limbo

for over 60 years. And she is confronted with the two of them. Here's a clip stroke trailer. Hey, sweetie. So I know this is a lot, but don't worry. I'm sorry, I've been doing the research. Oh, Larry. What do you mean Larry?

Yeah, well, a lot has happened in a week. You died? I died. I just been reunited with both of my dead husbands. You're exactly how I dreamt you. And I have to pick where to spend eternity. My client clearly has a very difficult decision to make. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Now, look, I went into this deeply suspicious because, I mean, you know, in terms of the premise, I thought, I don't know, this sounds terribly contrived.

And actually, I came out of it thinking, do you remember that film, Don't Worry, Darling? I think it was one of the first films we reviewed on the new take. And I came out of it thinking, this is what that would be like if it was actually good. I mean, it lifts rifts from a bunch of things like, you know, here comes Mr. Jordan and actually Pixar's soul, that animation, which I think both you and I really like. and somehow it manages to get away with it. And the reason it gets away with it is this. The script is really sharp.

The jokes are proper, old-fashioned screwball comedy, sort of fast-talking, wise-cracking. And the performances manage to elevate what's essentially a kind of, you know, a complex, an overly complex conceit into something that is just funny. And funny in a way that you go, oh, okay, no, that's really properly funny.

Divine Joy Randolph, who I've always been a fan of, is just great. She's great as the cosmic guide who does that, mm-hmm, thing that I'm not allowed to do in my house. Callum Turner is really well-cast as the kind of, he's perfect, he's perfect, he's so handsome, he's so perfect, he's so perfect that you know he absolutely cannot be perfect. And there's a running joke about the fact that he died in the war. Which war are the Korean War? That's not a real war, and this is a long joke about the only thing that came out of the Korean War was mash. And then Miles Teller, who manages to kind of get pathos and comedy into the role of this grumpy guy who slowly comes to realize that his real talent is making his wife happy. Okay,

he's not the handsomest guy, but he does actually, he wants his wife to be happy. As for Elizabeth Olson, who I've always really liked, she does a fantastic job of, because the whole thing's got a kind of screwball air to it, her performance almost seems to come from a previous era. So when she's kind of, when she's in heaven as the perfect version of, not heaven, in the holding station, as the perfect version of herself, that perfect version of herself speaks like a 40s movie star. And she's also got that kind of, you know, 40s movie star looks because of the design of the film has done really, really well. And she just, she just glows as this person who's suddenly faced with this impossible choice of the person she first loved and then the person she spent

most of her life with and her response to most of it is oh oh my you know how do i deal with this it's got a very good score by david fleming who worked on the last of us which you and i both liked and i literally sat in the screening room it was in mr young or soho screening rooms as it's now called she's quite a small screening room and there was a guy two seats down for me who when the first joke landed he laughed out loud in a way that i thought okay okay, this is going to be annoying. And then when the second joke landed, I laughed as loud as he did.

And then I spent the rest of the film thinking, I had no idea I was going to enjoy this as much as I did. So it was a real surprise treat. And I really, really enjoyed it. And I like the fact that it was taking riffs from all. I mean, it reminded me a little bit of that Danny Boyle film, which nobody liked at the time, but everyone has now reconsidered,

which is a life less ordinary. It's got a bit of that kind of screwball comedy to it. And I just thought it was really fun. Does it end up as a kind of a menageret-tois? So you're asking me to tell you what happens in the end of the film? Okay, no, that's... Have you been hanging out with... With himself from that film?

No. Anyway, don't worry, darling, is our most popular review on our YouTube channel? Well, it's our longest standing review. I think it's our most popular because it's been up on... Has it been seen by like 3 million people or something? 10. 10 million? 10 million people. Yeah.

10 million people wanted to know what we thought of, don't worry, darling. Yeah, or what you thought of, don't worry, darling. Yes, that is true, 10 million people. Wow. That's crazy numbers, isn't it? It's just bonkers. Anyway, eternity, it's in cinemas and I enjoyed it very much. Don't forget, all the joys of Patreon are available, as well as take one and take two.

You get the fortnightly extra show, which is Take Ultra, which we did last week. You can watch all that. It's available as a video episode on Patreon or as an audio podcast on your usual fruit, non-fruit-based devices. Also, Mark then says, there's loads. of other stuff for you over at Patreon, including the vote for the best Christmas film scene of Eves. Thank you for filling in nine. Well, I just thought you probably wouldn't be there at that point.

So anyway, over to Patreon, best Christmas film scene of all time. What do you think, more of which coming up? We'll be back in just a moment. Mark will now be reviewing top of page seven. Yeah, no, I've got it. Five Nights at Freddy's two. It was just an accident, the new Jafar Panahi, and of course the review of Jay Kelly, which is coming to Netflix

roundabout now. Plus a conversation with legendary Hollywood director James L. Brooks will also have the box office top 10 and the very, very excellent laughter lift in just a moment. Now, Simon, if our beloved redactor would be offered a

mind-blowing new job and abandon us tomorrow, hard to imagine, but go on, we would be on the lookout for a replacement. I mean, surely he's irreplaceable. He is, but that assignment. For candidates who match what we're looking for, elite-level Christmas cracker joke writing, a track record of working with top talent, and we do mean top, we'd be wise to try Indeed-sponsored jobs. They help you stand out and hire quality candidates who can drive the results you need.

Spend more time interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Less stress, less time, more results now with Indeed sponsored jobs. And listeners of this show will get a £100 sponsored job credit to help get your job the premium state, as it deserves at Indeed.com slash Kermode Mayo. Just go to Indeed.com slash Kermode Mayo right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this here podcast.

Indeed.com slash Kermode Mayo. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring, do it the right way with Indeed. Now, Simon, if our beloved redactor would be offered a mind-blowing new job and abandon us tomorrow... Hard to imagine, but go on. We would be on the lookout for a replacement. I mean, surely he's irreplaceable.

He is, but that aside, the candidates who match what we're looking for, elite-level Christmas cracker joke writing, a track record of working with top talent. And we do mean top. We'd be wise to try Indeed-sponsored jobs. They help you stand out and hire quality candidates who can drive the results you need.

Spend more time interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Less stress, less time, more results now with Indeed-sponsored jobs. And listeners of this show will get a £100,000, sponsor job credit to help get your job the premium status it deserves at Indeed.com slash Kermode Mayo. Just go to Indeed.com slash Kermode Mayo right now and support our show by saying you heard

about Indeed on this here podcast. Indeed.com slash Kermode Mayo. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring, do it the right way with Indeed. So before we dive into the chart, this is your last reminder, the very, very last reminder, that the Kermuda-Mayo Christmas movie Spectacular is December 7th, this coming Sunday, Prince Edward Theatre, in the West End of London. If you've delayed listening to this podcast until Monday, you've missed it. And what a show you missed, incidentally.

Yes, and what a show it was, apparently. Tip-top guests, including Jason's Isaac, wandering around a fan convention in New Orleans, or should we say News Orleans? You see, I've now got it. And also, who else, Mark? Well, Nia da Costa, who is the director of the Bone Temple, which I've now seen, I'm sure I'm not allowed to review it yet, but can I give you one word? Is it blimely? There you go. Well, that was pretty much my review of the first one.

So is it, it's another blimey. It's another blimey. Okay, so Nia de Costa is going to be with us. And if you fancy your chances with, apparently it's going to be a super tough quiz. You producer Dom is going to be showing off quite how brilliant he is. And when I say, because it says here quiz master Dom, but that feels as though that might be into Pillion territory. But anyway, if you'd like to enter Simon and Marks to mind, then you need to be a question. then you need to let us know.

Also, now is the time to please send in your Cracker Jokes for inclusion in our Laughter Lift Christmas Cracker Special, where we all have to laugh because the jokes won't have been written by Paul Simon slash the redactor. So the show is this Sunday, Sunday the 7th of December, 2pm, head to Fanefanef.com.com.com. Take and grab your tickets, the last remaining tickets, which are available at very reasonable prices.

box office top 10 at number 14 blue moon which i thought was kind of interesting i mean richard linkler it's funny because i said richard link later is incredibly productive he turns these films you know he just because there's a whole other film already backing up and then somebody sent a message in saying productive i think boyhood was the longest production i've ever known a movie to take catching up then number 10 is the choral which i thought was fine um i'm very glad that we had such nice correspondence about people's experience of seeing it on Remembrance Sunday. I thought it was fine. Tier Iskmine at 9.

Yeah, this wasn't press screened. This is a Hindi language musical, romantic drama, which is a spiritual sequel to Ranjana. Have anyone seen it? Let us know because it wasn't press screen. A poor patrol Christmas at 8. Well, if you go to see a poor patrol Christmas, you know exactly what the film is. This is now in its fourth week in the top 10. And I think this falls into the category that we've talked about a lot, which is if it gets your kids used to the idea of going to the cinema, then good for it.

Predator Badlands, is it number seven? Which has sort of slightly, I mean, look, I think it's fine. I think it's fine. I keep bumping into critics who go, yeah, we're really down on that move. I wasn't really down on it. I wasn't really down there. I think I read it's taken more than any other Predator film. Well, because of the certificate.

because it's a 12A certificate. There's a kind of just a simple, you know, economic math spill into this. More people are able to go and see the film. Therefore, that's what happens. That's why you go from making 18 or as they used to be X-rated films down to 12 because it opens up the market. I just thought that after Prey, which we enjoyed so much,

both of us, that's not the Royal Wee, that's me and you, both enjoyed so much. It was just, I thought it was ho-hum. But, you know, it's in that sweet spot in terms of how many people, can go and see it. So that's number seven. Nuremberg is number six. I mean, who knew that this was going to turn out to be Russell Crow's best role in ages?

I still can't get past, walking past the poster of, you know, Russell Crow is, and I go, no, he isn't. But I've seen the film, and he genuinely is. I think it's his best performance in a very long time. The Running Man is at number five? Very faithful to the Stephen King original. I was just doing a couple of interviews. about Stephen King, the people who've done adaptations of his work, including the guy who

made Midnight Mass, which, again, you and I sort of really enjoyed. And it is impossible not to be impressed by how accurately Stephen King foresaw the future. I mean, he was writing these books in the 1970s, and he was writing dystopian fiction that is positively Orwellian in how it anticipates the kind of the pop culture, sort of celebrity propaganda of the the future. And I think Edgar Wright's done a great job with this film. Number four is Pillion. So here's an email from Kieran, Yes. Dear Sub and Dom. In last week's discussion of Pillion, Mark made the point that in sub-dom relationships like the one depicted between Harry Melling's Colin and Alexander

Scarsgaard's Ray, it's in fact the sub who holds the power and these relationships require clear boundaries of consent to be set up. So we're often healthier than traditional relationships. Simon disagreed saying that the relationship he'd seen in the movie was abusive. Having watched the film over the weekend, I'd argue that you're both right. Ray takes advantage of Colin's naivety. He does not give him the opportunity to set up... By the way, I thought we were both. I don't think we were kind of disagree. No, I don't think we were. You were just more comfortable with it. Anyway, he does not give him the opportunity to set up boundaries at the beginning of the relationship and is dismissive of Colin's later attempts

to initiate such conversations. For me, a key sequence was when they go to the countryside, with a few other dom-sub couples. Here we see glimpses of the other doms showing affection for their subs in a way that Colin never receives from Ray. Colin begins to see that there is a more healthy way for this kind of relationship to be maintained, and the events of the final act show that Pillion is a story about learning to communicate and set boundaries. Overall, I thought writer-director Harry Leighton did a brilliant balancing act of shining a light on a subculture not often seen on screen

in a generally sympathetic way whilst also showing how such a relationship can fall into trouble if there isn't proper communication, as can happen with any relationship. It's also an incredibly funny comedy. I have to say I have found Simon's attitude on the podcast to be unfairly prudish and dismissive

as once you can get past the fact on the surface Colin and Ray's is a very different kind of relationship to what you might be familiar with, then there's plenty in Pillion everyone to relate to. Tinkety-Tonk and see you behind Primark at 5pm. That's Kieran. Well, I think, I mean, prude is an interesting word. It's inherently dismissive, obviously, meaning excessively prim or a demure woman.

So it's in sense, you know, its origins are somewhat suspect as a word. My basic position was that Colin's mother was right across the table because if you imagine that Colin's character was a young woman as opposed to a young man, it feels like it's a relationship where coercive control is taking place. And you said last week, as I remember, Adam Mars Jones you'd had a conversation with and it's based on his book. And in the book, the relationship is even more cruel. So therefore, it is a cruel relationship. So I think what I was reacting to was that. And that is, and there'll be many people listening to this, who have friends who have got into coercive control relationships, or they have children or friends of the family, where a

relationship has clearly been suffering from coercive control. And then you have to speak up and speak out exactly as Colin's mother does. And because it is, because of that unhealthiness, I think that's why I reacted the way that I did. Yeah, I mean, I think there's two things to say you. The first thing, I don't think for one minute you were being prudish, because I think one of the reasons that Pillion is interesting is that in terms of the way in which the BDSM relationship is portrayed, one member of that, one part of that relationship is familiar with the ground and has clearly been doing this for a while, and the other partner has not yet figured out whether or not this is actually what they want. And I think that's exactly what gives the film that sense

of uncomfortableness. And I think one cannot dismiss it, and one's not meant to dismiss it. The point about the film is, it is a discussion about how one arrives at a point of consent. Now, by the very end of the film, and by the end of the film, I mean the very, very end of the film, that point of consent may have been arrived at. But up until that point, it hasn't. And I think if you don't feel uncomfortable, you are missing a key part of the drama, which is, it is about, hang on, until you have an equal partnership in which every, every, both people involved in this relationship are on exactly the same page. It is uncomfortable. And that's why the says, I think you're a C word. Because, and I think that's perfectly, I don't think for one minute that you're being prudish. I mean, I actually think, to be honest, you are incredibly open-minded because in the course of this job, which I kind of forced you into by the fact that, you know, you were working

in pop music and I was working in film and then we ended up doing a film show, you've seen a staggering array of movies, which I think you probably, you know, wouldn't immediately have chosen to pile into the cinema. And you've always gone in with an open mind. So I don't think you're a prude at all. I think it's also interesting that the very word prude is sexist. Yes, I didn't know that, but that makes perfect sense. So the definition of prude is excessively prim or demure woman.

Obviously, the meanings change. No sure. So, hey, you know, that was it in origin. Anyway, number two, sorry, number three, now you see me, now you don't. Wish you hadn't. Number two, Zootropolis, too. Dear Sub and Dom says, says, James McCurvin from the urologist's urinario, and also many others.

I love that Mark thinks the fox in Zootropolis is voiced by Patrick Bateman. I agree, if that were the case, it would definitely make it more commercial and therefore more satisfying. You said Patrick Bateman rather than Jason Bateman. Oh, no. Oh, my. Did I say that? Well, I didn't know.

No one noticed here at this end. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. Wouldn't that be great? Wouldn't that be great if American Psycho met Zootropolis too? Oh, wow. I'm so sorry. Okay, well, that is a classic Kermode slip. I'm really, really sorry.

But you're right. With Patrick Bateman doing the voice, that would have been fantastic. James and many others. Thank you very much. I'm sorry. I'm so sorry. I'm doing this more as I get older. But then again, I do think, you know, American Psycho meet Zootropolis

would be a film I would pay to see. And number one all over the world, Wicked for Good. Emma Wilkin, says, Dear Cynthia and Ariana, I went to see The Wicked for Good at the amazing Abbey Gate Cinema in Berry St. Edmonds. I've seen the stage show, but I'm nowhere near as enthusiastic about it as some people. So I was a bit concerned that the lack of a defying gravity like banger would mean it wasn't that enjoyable. For that reason, I was surprised to find myself having a full-on ugly cry more than once during the film.

Maybe it hit different because I was a bit hungover. There you go, what you bring to it. or because I was watching it with my best friend who I don't see that often. But the depiction of Elfarba and Glinda's friendship, female friendship being something you don't see all that often in cinema, got me right in the fields. I'm looking forward to watching both films back to back with my best pal, Sarah, the next time kids, dogs, distance, and life in general allows.

Thank you, Emma. Peter J. Matthews, audiobook narrator, and 1500 metres swimming statistics. behind all the marketing merchandise and the gravity-defying music, it is a story that centers around a manipulative, egocentric, lying fraudster who has hoodwinked a nation into believing in his wonderfulness. Watch the original 1937 film first as we did the night before, and you might be just as bewitched as the residents of Oz are into believing the wicked witch is genuinely wicked and that the wizard is truly wonderful. Hell, his slogan could even be

Moga, make Oz great again. I think you see where I'm going here. The real genius of wicked is that it first takes us behind the curtain to show how easily people are manipulated and controlled through a diet of clever lies and concocted fears. But then eventually shows us that there is true magic in kindness, compassion, forgiveness and ultimately love, that this colossal franchise has managed to largely avoid accusations of wokeness and being political in averticomers, while subtly but firmly pointing its long green finger at the current charlatan wizards of nationalism and populism cowering in their emerald bunkers and ballrooms,

this is a long sentence, all the while championing diversity and inclusion in its casting is a testament to just how incredibly good wicked is and ultimately the power of great storytelling gasp for breath. Tinkety-tong, up with witches and down with witch hunts, up with goats, down with scapegoats, Peter J. Matthews. That's wicked at number one. Yeah, I mean, I'm completely on board with that comment.

It's funny, one of my favorite lines in the Wizard of Oz is when Dorothy says, you're a very bad man. And he says, no, no, no, I'm a very good man. I'm just a very bad wizard. And then, of course, in the case of Wicked, he said, no, he is a very bad man. And I think that Jeff Goldblum performance is terrific. And I do think all the things that you've just said about what's going on in that story are particularly poignant and true right now.

and I think make Oz great again is so so what does it do that has meant that it hasn't become the target as our correspondent peter says no one as far as i can see not that i inhabit these circles no one is saying wicked oh it's just too woke well the comparison that i would draw would be with it's a wonderful life it's a wonderful life is a film that everybody thinks about now they you know they love it and they think it's a christmas staple that was largely due to um it playing on television when it became a kind of Christmas staple, because Frank Capra said, you never thought it was that. But that film was investigated by the House Un-American Activities Commission because they decided that it was anti-bankers and pro-communist, and it would inspire dissent.

Despite the fact that it was hauled up before the H-UAC, nobody thinks of it's a wonderful life like that. And yet, it is a modern parable about, you know, decency and goodness. and about a small town being overtaken by a horrible financier who turns this place, you know, Bedford Falls into Pottersville. And suddenly it becomes a horrible parable about capitalism and greed. But people don't think that. They think it's a great film. And, you know, every time a bell rings, an angel gets its wings.

Why? Because it's so wrapped up. And I think the really interesting thing with the House on American Activities Commission, is they were right. I mean, there was no reason to haul the film up before them, but all the things that they ended up concluding, you go, yeah, yeah, that is what it says. It says greed and capitalism is not a good thing.

But of course, it does it in a way that's completely palatable because it's such a great film. And I think that, I mean, I have not seen the stage show of Wicked. I've just seen the two films, and I've been very impressed by both of them. And I love the fact that that diversity and that rebelliousness, and all that stuff is hardwired into the matrix of those films. In a moment, Mark is going to be reviewing five nights at Freddy's Two.

It was just an accident, Jay Kelly, and we'll be talking to James L. Brooks in just a moment. Does anyone really know what hormones do? There is so much talk about women's hormonal health, but most women are left even more confused about what it means for them and what to do about it. This confusion ends now. Hormone Harmony is a game-changer for women struggling with hormonal imbalances

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sent off your entire first order at happy mammoth.com. Just use the code Happy15 at checkout. Okay, so just ahead of the conversation with James L. Brooks. So we should, if people need a kind of a little summary, Mark, I mean, this man is, I've already mentioned he's 85 years old. And that genuinely is is a point, I think, because there are, apart from Ridley Scott, you know, there are very few people of this generation who are still out there and making interesting stuff.

Yes. But where do we start to talk about James L. Brooks? Well, on the one hand, there's the television work, which I'm going to leave to you because, of course, that's immense. But in terms of his film output, terms of endearment, as good as it gets, Spanglish, now, Alam McKay,

and of course, broadcast news. Now, in the same way that Stephen King, is the author name that comes up more on this show than anyone else. Broadcast News is probably the film that we have talked about the most, probably more so than The Exorcist, My Obsession, or Amidio is yours, because every week there's a, I say it here, it comes out there, he's the devil. I mean, I genuinely think to this day that Broadcast News is one of the best depictions of how broadcasting works, and I love that film.

and I'm so jealous that you got to meet because I have never met James L. Brooks. Yeah, he's never come around. He's a titan. And in terms of his television work, Simon, that includes... Well, that would include the Mary Tyler Moore Show, which is like we're going back to our parents' generation and the spin-offs Roda and Lou Grant.

The sitcom Taxi, that's him, the Tracy Ullman show, out of which came The Simpsons. The Simpsons, which he is still intimately involved with on a daily basis. Just astonishing. It is. Donishing CV. Five Oscars, 22 Emmys.

Where do you even begin to talk about James L. Brooks? Well, this is where you start by playing you a clip from his new movie, Ella McKay. It's a tale of the ties that bind us. Try not to judge. My husband right away. I'll try. You're not fighting.

The people we can count on. Would you like to hear about my favorite community health program? God, no. And the ones we can't. I'd like to acknowledge past actions for which I am ashamed. This is great. We're doing this. And the surprises. I'm resigning immediately.

Your governor. Congratulations. You really couldn't have gotten this any other way. Well, that bring it all to a boil. Any last minute advice? Don't take Amby and more than three nights in a row. And that's a clip from Ella McKay. I am delighted to say I've been joined by its writer and director, the legendary James L. Brooks.

Hello, James. How are you? Good, good. Thank you. Good to be here. It's very, very nice to see you. It's a privilege to have you on the show introduce us to. There's lots of we want to talk about, but introduce us to your new movie. Oh, wow. It's set in 2008 because, you know, in the United States, it was certainly true. We still liked each other then before our great division.

And there's a woman who wants to fix everything that's in front of her. And she's clearly, clearly superb. from out-of-the-box. She also has an errant father and had the opening scene just before Titles is a family fracturing just from spontaneous combustion. Woody Harrelson,

Woody Harrelson plays a charming miscreant. And that sets her up because, like, you know, there's a bit of autobiography and just coming from, from family trauma, and then the way that chases you, the way you operate around it, the way you deal with it. But it's always sort of there.

So she, Lieutenant Governor, can you explain what that role is in? Because our politics are obviously similar, but different. So who is she? Well, the governor is the head of a state. We have 50 states. It's a big job. You really have great authority at the state. Lieutenant Governor is usually runs on the ticket.

And in this case, she's lieutenant governor because she knows policy backwards and forward. She's a real walk. She can't stop. She has to fix things. The governor has dependent on her because he's retail politician. He gets the votes. He has the charm. She's the worker.

And then he gets a cabinet position in Washington. So a secretary of the interior so that she suddenly, the person behind the curtain, comes into the spotlight. So the role of Ella McKay is played by Emma Mackey. Yes. Can you just explain, so I admit I was getting them a bit confused when I was writing all this down. In the audition process, can you explain how Emma came into this because her name is so similar to the title of the movie? Everybody tells me I should correct it that the last thing you want is to confuse people. But I was living with LLKK as a title of the movie for so long.

And there might have been a mistake, but I can. kept the title the same. We were pretty far down. And then Emma Mackey shows up and shows up after because it's a huge part for a woman. She has to play a 16-year-old, you know, convincingly. She's, you know, and I had in my mind there was this golden age of movie comedy, you know, and Catherine Hepburn, Audrey Hepburn, you know, and just, and it was just that that was, that was the time when it when there was a spirit that I loved and I try to just pay tribute to with this picture, leaving room for the fact that she is a child of trauma and some of this stuff is pretty serious. Yeah.

So when she came into the audition, did you know it was because I think it was quite late in the process? She obviously did something that made you think it's definitely her. Old school charm? I had been looking, and it got scary. You know, you can say if you build it, she will come, and suddenly she walks in. You're waiting for that moment. Now you're very months, you're months into looking all over the place, and you haven't gotten it yet. And then I, first on a Zoom.

No, it's first in London, I think it was. And I saw her, and she was so right, and she did one of the monologues from picture. and she was so touching that I didn't believe it. Too good to be true, you know, like, you know, I expected bad news. And then we did another one right away. And it's just, I mean, you need luck. You know, it's so crazy how you need a break. Sometimes the break is you don't get somebody you were after and you find, you know.

And in this case, she walked in. It's a very American story, but with a kind of a British heart, because she is Anglo-French. And Jack Loudon is Scottish, and Jack Loudon is married to her. So how did, we are very familiar with him over here, particularly with slow horses, of course. What were you looking for in Jack? Why did you get him in there? It's a very difficult party place. He's very good at it.

Yeah, yeah. And he's, this always sounds so, I mean, when you say things like this, it sounds overstated, it's not overstated with him. He's a thrilling actor. And I think it's the spirit, the fact that the joy of it, the fact that, you know, that the theory that it's supposed to be fun, you know, not agony to do this. and he had that spirit and it's, you know, I'm so used to, to, and it's right, you know, you're going to go into a scene and the actor has a discussion with this is what the scene, what do you think, what do you think? With Jack, he was off like a shot doing it, you know, just out of the starting gate.

And I think it was a really difficult part because you got to, you have to, you had to understand what she's doing with him. And then you have to have these few hints of maybe it's a mistake. You'd be very busy producing movies, but what was it about this project, this script, which is your script? But what was it about this that made you want to direct again, which you haven't done for 15 years? I was working. I do The Simpsons. I love that job.

But I was going nuts not writing something new. And then finally that got to me. And the characters came. The characters came first. Then it was working out the narrative. But the characters popped up. You know, in a way you're always trying, even although this is set in 2008, just to get away from all our current politics, you're trying to nail a contemporary heroine. I've never felt nostalgic for 2008 before.

But I came out of your movie having laughed a lot thinking things were better then. And particularly thinking, if only American politics, which obviously we see a lot of here, if only American politics is like it is in your movie, when the worst, I guess from a progressive point of view, the worst thing that we could imagine was George W. Bush. And now we see, now we see Ella McKay. You go, yes, what she, why can't it be more like that? So why is 2008 your divide? As the narrator said, we still liked each other.

And even though there was a recession on at the time, it was still all for one, one for all. And then the division happened. And the division is such a horrible occurrence in the United States, you know, that people that were generally together and suddenly were on sides. And so this is nostalgia for when we were all one people. Is that social media that has driven that? That would be the standard interpretation. Well, it's sure an echo chamber for that and then reinforces it, yeah.

I guess you know that it's very weird for most of us to see actual actors with Simpson's voices. So you mentioned the narrator who is Julie Kavanaugh, who's Marge and Albert Brooks is there. And we even, I think, get the voice of Tracy Ullman just to take it back into her. I think she's on the phone answering machine, is that right? That's right. You must have had a lot of fun working with these people again, but to see them as actual physical actors was incredible. Yeah, yeah. And Julie, Julie is to see her, to see her now. She appears at the beginning. She's the narrator. She's the one who takes us by the hand. And it's so interesting when an audience makes the trip, that's Marge Simpson, and then forgets the trip and gets involved with what Julie plays in this. But the voice is magic.

Yeah. We see the Gracie Films logo, a little film at the beginning. It was fantastic to see that. And I remember you in the past saying that at Gracie Films, writers still rule. They were your words. Is that still true? Yes.

And with people being concerned about what AI can do to a writer's career, how will you at Gracie Films try and make sure that writer's, continue to rule? This may be foolish of me. I think there's a thing that AI can do. I think there's a picture that hits beats that other pictures have hit, that has an arc like other pictures have had. I think AI is frighteningly going to get pretty good at that because any film that's somewhat paint by the numbers, I think AI can do, and this is the infancy.

So it's going to get crazy. But I think you can't kill it with a stick. I think the heart is still there. I think people are making personal movies. I think it might be a little more uphill than it was, but I sort of believe the dream is the dream is the dream. I have one question which I have to ask you, just because it's been a long time waiting for me to ask this question.

your debut film, in terms of endearment, it must be the most successful debut of all time, I would think, was that right, five Oscars? I can't imagine. How, how was it that you, that didn't mess you up? You know, because sometimes, particularly in the music world, when a lot of success comes like that, people can go off the rails.

How come you're still here making great films at 85? I, I, my first thing when it hit, I, you know, I went to a grizz. old expert producer who'd been around, and I said, how many more do I get to make? Because this movie was a hit, you know, and he says, I think, too, you know, so that thrilled me. I mean, it just, that's, and I think that's what it's all about. You get to make another one, you know, it's, and, and it was, you know, part of it was surreal, and I was, and then when you get into the writing of the next one, you know, the humility, you know, just, that's,

That's what's waiting for you at the machine, you know, when you start another one. So, and it was, it was great because after that, I was able to do research because people, people knew a little bit who I was. So I was able to get entree into research that I might not have gotten when I was, you know, when nobody knew, you know. we had Ridley Scott on the on the show recently and he seems to be speeding up you know he has so many films that he wants to make still when I asked him what are you doing next he had like three or four things that he was working on is that is that you having done this movie are you going to give another one to us in like 80 months I was I was pretty proud of having a few notes on my next one which I do and you tell me he's three or four ahead God that just seems that just seems to be the way you know I'm He clearly wants to achieve all these things, but do you feel, it sounds to me as though you are, you're going to keep going. I know what I want to do next. And that's, you know, I know what I want to approach. I have notes on that.

Okay. Another Simpsons movie, maybe. Well, I don't want to, but that's an adjacent possibility, yes. Okay. So you have lots on your life. James L. Brooks, it's such a pleasure and a privilege to have you on the show. Thank you so much. Well, thank you so much.

There again. James L. Brooks. I'm so jealous. I'm really, really jealous because I think, I mean, yeah. And I haven't seen the new film yet. It's out next week. Is it great?

He's one, yes. Well, it's not, it's not going to be considered with broadcast news and as good as it gets in terms of endearment. I don't think it'll win an Oscar. It's a mate,

I've never felt nostalgic for 2000. But there is no doubt that, although it's an easy line and a cheap line, and it's back to when we liked each other, there is an element of, there is an enough element of truth in there. But I think throughout the film, you think this feels like a film. I haven't seen this kind of film for 20 years. But he knows what he's doing. And when you've got Jack Loudon and Woody Harrelson, who you heard in the clip in there, and Julie Kavana, as also in the clip, the voice of Marge Simpson, and Albert Brooks. There's some great people in there. There's some good gags. It's a very, very enjoyable film which you can watch with your parents, I think. Because it'll be a film

that they're familiar with. It's the structure which he talked about. It's the structure which feels old-fashioned, but in a good way. Yeah. Well, I'm really looking forward to it. I love the fact that you brought up the thing about the writers still rule. I just looked up that the quote, the full quote that I was alluded to before from broadcast news is I know you care about him. I've never seen you like this about anyone. So please don't take it wrong when I tell you that I believe that Tom, while a nice guy, is the devil.

And I just, I'm sorry, I give my right arm to be able to write like that. I thought it was also interesting that the pause that he left when I said the writer's still rule, you know, in the new AI world. And he, like everyone else, he's trying to work out what the rules are and where this is going to go. but he obviously still thinks that writers still rule and long may that be the case but it is interesting that it's

and confusing that Ella McKay stars Emma Mackey and when you think hang on is it named after her that was my first take no no it's just slightly different which is very confusing but I think she has exactly what you want in a kind of a rom-com which is what this is anyway to be reviewed next week that's Ella McKay starring Emma Mackey

and Willie Harrelson. And Jack Loudon, correspondence at covenomere.com, here is something you can review. It was just an accident, which is the latest film from Iranian O'Tour, Jeffar Panahi, whose devotion to filmmaking

has seen him arrested, imprisoned, and banned from making movies in Iran. I think he was first banned in 2010, but after the band kept making them, he co-directed, this is not a film, which was a film in which he kept saying,

I'm not making a film. I'm just doing something in my front room that was smuggled out of Iran on a USB, hidden inside a cake, premiered to greater claim at Cannes, closed curtain and taxi Tehran earned him, well, just taxi, as it was known in its original format, silver and golden bears, respectively at Berlin, three faces, won best screenplay at Cannes. In 2022, he was detained and ordered to serve a six-year prison sentence, but made no bears, which picked up the special jury prize at Venice, and an award for cinematic bravery at Chicago.

I mean, the reason I say all this is because people talk about the difficulties of making films. There's making films under difficult circumstances and there is making films in a circumstance in which you will regularly get arrested for doing it. When he won the Precious Gem Award in Miami, he said, I wish I could make films

instead of receiving awards because I have dreams that go beyond all the awards in the world. So this, it was just a show. Just an accident is his first production since being released from jail. As with so many of his films shot without permits, co-production between Iran, France and Luxembourg, premiered in Cannes where it won the Palm Door. And true to form, when Panahi won the Palm Door in his speech,

he said, how can I rejoice, how can I be free while in Iran, there are still so many of the greatest directors and actresses of Iranian cinema who, because they participated in and supported the day, demonstrations during the family military movement are today prevented from working. So I'm sorry, this guy is the real deal. This is what it means to be devoted to cinema. So the film opens with a man, woman in a child, driving a car at night. It's very rainy in cinema, a bunch of people in a car. They hit something, an animal. The kid says, dad killed something. Car starts to break down and they drive to a garage where an Azerbaijani mechanic hears the

sound of the man's prosthetic leg. He has one leg and a prosthetic leg, and he hears the sound, and he thinks that he recognizes it as the sound of the prosthetic leg of a captor who had him and tortured him and his comrades some years before. So he follows the man home and kidnaps him, bent on vengeance, but his victim, the kidnapped man with one leg, says, it's not me. I don't know who this person is that you're talking about. So he decides, okay, I need to know that this is the guy I think it is. And the way he does that is he, in the back of the man, in a box, takes him to see his former comrades who were also imprisoned and tortured to say to them, is this the guy?

Now, we're going to play you the trailer, which obviously is not in the English language, just so you know, this is what you're going to hear. It's a trailer, so it's disparate phrases. I found Pegleg. He brought Pegleg. Bring water. Are you sure it's him? I need you. I have a doubt. Can you confirm it's him? I won't drop this until I know it's him. Here's a bit of the trailer. Paghashangarro of payed up. You can't pay over and zah, brought in here.

Ah, bring you? Is it? I just want to help you. I've got into shack. You'll be able to see you, or not. I'm a key man. I'm a god's madame of this man.

Go ahead. So, we play that just to give you kind of, you know, a little flavor of the film. So it begins as his kind of darkly absurdist fable in which this very ordinary man, he was clearly not a killer, traps a one-legged stranger in a box in the back of his van, and then drives around picking up a misfit group of people,

which include a photographer, a bride and groom in all their wedding finery, and an angry young man in a state of permanent rage who just wants to kill him because he's absolutely convinced that it is. Whereas when everybody else is going, I don't know whether that's the guy. And as with all of Jafar Panahi's work, and actually an awful lot of what's now called New Wave Iranian cinema, I mean, it's got this kind of humanist, Italian, neo-realist style to it. It feels very real.

And it feels real, even as the plot becomes apparently incredibly convoluted, I mean, as they pick up this kind of rag-tag collection of people, all looking in the box to go, is that the guy? So on the one hand, it is avertly political because it is about this was our former tormentor. This was somebody who we think tortured us. And it is an evocation of a regime built on torture and terror. But it's also a film made in Iran in which. the women in the film are not adhering to the legal dress code. So you know that even when they were

making the film, they were breaking a whole bunch of rules that, you know, that could have got them all arrested. But in which those women are every bit as powerful as the men in the drama. And I think one of the reasons that it works is because the plot snowballs slowly. It just starts off with him hearing the sound of this leg. And he's convinced that this is the guy that abused him. And then he kidnapsed him without really thinking what he's doing. And then he doesn't know. And then he has to go and see people who go, what on earth are you doing bringing this guy to me in the back of a van? And because the rag tag group of people, these are good, decent people. When stuff starts happening like their kidnapper's wife goes into labor, they end up helping, despite the

fact that she doesn't know that they've got her husband in the back of a van. And there are conversations about the ethics of torture. Look, just because they did this, this is not who we are. We don't do the same thing. But all those conversations, they don't seem polemical. They don't never seem to be, this is the director telling you what the message of the film is. They seem like exactly the kind of conversation that you would have in that situation. And the best thing is that the more the film goes on, the more it kind of doesn't matter whether this is the guy they think it is or whether it isn't. The ambiguity allows the drama to kind of seep in a way which is raising much more profound humanist questions. I mean, I thought it was, at times it was laugh

out loud, funny, at times it was really nerve rattling. It's got a brilliant ending, a brilliant ending that will send you out into the foyer of the cinema, wanting to have a discussion with whoever you were sitting next to it or whoever you've just met. I mean, it's a, I think it's a masterpiece by a master filmmaker. And I will say this again, when people talk about people dedicating their lives to cinema this is what dedicating your life to cinema looks like when you're you literally cannot stop making films no matter what's thrown at you and i i think it's terrific and it's called it was just an accident okay uh let us know what you think when you see at correspondence at kodoma.com over on patreon we've been running a knockout poll on the greatest movie christmas movie scenes of all

time. So not Christmas movies. This is the greatest Christmas movie scene of all time. The final is going to be on our live show which we'll do Sunday afternoon. So we're down to the last four mark or actually as it turns out the last seven. Really?

That was that working. Well I'll tell you. So these three are definitely through. One, Gremlins. Billy's mum creeping through the house while do you hear what I hear plays in the background as she's hunting the gremlins. Two, Muppet Christmas Carol. the thankful heart bit.

Three, it's a wonderful life. George Bailey's run through Bedford Falls shouting Merry Christmas. And then it's a three-way tie for the last semi-final spot. All these were on 10% in our poll and so therefore we're going to decide which one gets through.

Like, die hard. John Kane crawling through the air ducts lighter in hand saying his famous line about making friends at the party. The holdovers, the end scene, keep your head up all right, you can do this. a National Lampoon's Christmas vacation, Clark Griswold losing his mind at the end.

So we have to decide between one of those. I mean, I would say it's between die-hard and holdovers. So you and I have to decide this. Yeah. What it says here, Simon and Mark discuss and decide. So this is effectively the toy and cost between the three films that are joint. Die hard. Okay. There you go. Sorted. It's the diehard scene. So that will be decided and that gets the last spot and then it'll be all discussed and voted on, I imagine, when we do our live show at the Prince Edward Theatre on Sunday and then you'll get to hear the recording of that.

Can I just say, can I just say that you were recently asked to go on a news program to talk for seven minutes about whether or not die hard was a Christmas movie and you said no, partly because seven minutes. Well, number is one, seven minutes, two, it was nine o'clock in the evening, no thank you. And also, well, I was afraid that I was going to say yippie-kaye melon farmers at some stage, which would have been the end of the interview. People will be watching it going, I saw that Simon Mayo on the news, he's got a mouth like a docker. Exactly. There he's going on about how Mark is, you know, volley of filth. Anyway, that's very good. So we'll see you all on Sunday for that. Now, it's the ads in a minute mark, but first it's time to highlight the comedy, as they say. With James L. Brooks being on the show, he would love this bit.

It's the laughter lift. It's fantastic. James Brooks could turn this into a movie, The Laughter Lift, where the whole thing is the lift. It's going up and it's going down. People get in and they get jokes. What do you think? Simon McMayo.

Or it could be like the lift in speed, right, the opening sequence of speed. Remember? No. It starts very high and you just follow the lift all the way down. And who's in the lift? Is it Dennis Hopper with the bomb? Dennis Hopper is down at the bottom. Oh, right.

And you realise that things are not going well. Anyway, hey Mark, yes, yes, yes, Christmas soon. I can't wait. Although I've been warned by the good lady Ceramma sister who endorsed that I am not to ruin Boxing Day with my incessant puns. And I just can't do that. I can't go cold turkey. Yay!

I treated myself to some new trainers this week, Mark. I was trying them on. When I said to the assistant, just too tight. She said, you're not doing it correctly, Simon Mayer. Try it with the tongue out. Don't get too tight. I said, I got thrown out of a foot locker. I don't believe you did that joke.

Then. Anyway, so I went to the new artisan bakery after that, Mark. Did you? It's very fancy. It made me very sad when I saw their sourdough loaves on display in antique bird cages. Why did it make me sad? I hear you ask you. Why did it make you sad, Simon Mayo?

Because it was bred in captivity. There you go. You see. Can that be improved on by our live audience on Sunday? Please let the answer to that be yes. Throw to Mark for a trail of the last bit. Mark says it was just an accent. No, no, we've just done. It was just an accident. We're going to do five nights at Freddy's two and Jay Kelly. Looking forward to that after this.

Now here's an email from Mike, dear Danny and presuming Ed. Concerning the recent discussion of films that are also autobiographical or semisement. autobiographical in terms of their director's experience. There are many to varying degrees, but I can think of none greater than Bruce Robinson's Withnail and I. For those who may be unaware, Bruce Robinson based a lot of it on his relationship

to his friend Viv McCarroll, who was the real-life inspiration for Withnail, whereas Robinson himself was the eponymous, and I, or Marwood, as he is referred to in the script. They lived in Camden in the late 60s, having been drama students together, in such a degree of squalor that Robinson

used to have to unscrew a light bulb and take it to another room if you wanted light and there was only one working bulb. When With Nail Rance about a young British actor working for a famous Italian director that he's just read about, that's a reference to Robinson appearing in Franco Zaffarelli's Romeo and Juliet. During this time,

Robinson has stated he was subject to the unwanted amorous advances of the legendary director and as such, he is a direct inspiration for the character of Uncle Monty in the film. even to the extent that things Zephyrelli allegedly said to Robinson are repeated verbatim in the film. Are you a stone or a sponge? Do you like to soak up new experiences? Robinson did indeed have a disastrous holiday in the Lake District, although that was not with Viv McKearrel, but another actor called Mickey Feast in real life. I won't go on further as there is an abundance of material

easily found elsewhere on this subject and I've already gone on a bit. But I'm often surprised by people who know and love this film being unaware of just how how much real-life experience of its writer and director went into it. I did a little film about Withnall and I, and we went to Uncle Monti's cottage, which still looks exactly the same, except for the fact that it's got a little picture of Richard E. Grant in the window. And then we went to the phone box that they go to to make the call about,

you know, the agent and why he hasn't got the job. And it rained the whole time we were there. And it was absolutely, we had come on holiday by mistake. Richard E. Grant, we wish him the best. Happy Christmas to you, Richard, and well done on getting all the voiceovers. We've got so many ads, which are very welcome, of course, in the voice by Richard, because he has that particular, he has such a fruity voice. He says that thing, does he say, this is mince pies made with, made with, something like luxurious butter. And it's like, and he just says it so much better than anyone else. It's a mince pie, but now that he said, made with luxurious butter, you think, oh, actually, I've got fancy. that. Right, let's two. Five guys at Freddy's. Five nights at Freddy's two. I know, but I fancy a burger. Yeah. Okay. So this is, I mean, I know you've been awaiting this. Yes. What happened in Five Nights at Freddy's one? I'm so glad you asked. Yes. So this is the sequel to the 2023 Slash of Fantasy, which was based on the video game franchise created by Scott Call Thorne, who's an

executive producer, did the script with Emmett Tammy. So the set up, up originally is there's the night watchman in Freddy Fazbear's Pizza, which is named after an animatronic bear, and the player in the game would be menaced by animatronic characters and traps. And then in the film, the animatronic characters were ghost children possessing the robot animals or something. Anyway, so now, sequel, Josh Hutchson, Elizabeth Lale Piper, Rubio, Matthew Lillard, reprising their roles, Wayne Knight McKenna Grace, other people joining the cast alongside Ski Ulrich in a cameo which literally makes you go, sorry, who's that? Oh, all right, then.

And then when you finally figure it out, you go, I really like the screen movies, a lot more than I like this. And there's also a bit in it in which a car runs over an Elm Street sign. And you go, yeah, fine. So this is apparently set, it's just after the first film, about which, I mean, the plot of the first film, I just can't be bothered to remember. So Abby is now separated from, but attempting to reconnect with the animatronic spirit possessed friends that led to the events of, and then it turns out that there's more than one, Freddy's, there's an original Freddy's, and also. all the robotic animals, there's now a new breed of them. So there's two of everything and three of every plot strand.

Here's a clip from the trailer. So this is what it's like, being normal? I think we've come pretty far, considering what we've been through. How's that be? Some days she's good. Some days she misses her friends. This story that you're going to fix those animatronics. It's only giving her false hope.

Can any of you hear me? Abby, Abby, help us. Come find us. I always love it in a plot description where you lose the will to live, just explaining the story because we kind of know what's. come in. So much plot and so little point to any of it. I mean, there isn't any point trying to do a synopsis of this because it's just like none of it makes any sense and none of it's interesting. And I saw this because it was just the one screening. And I was there with Kim Newman,

horror maven, Kim Newman, my great friend. And Kim, I'm sure he won't mind me saying that he said at the end of it, he said, how can you mess this up? It's killer toy robots. How can you mess this up? And the answer is so many ways. And every one of the ways of messing this up is explored in this just bum-nummingly dull, boring world-building movie, which is like building the Winnie the Pooniverse world is actually more interesting now than the five nights at Freddy. So, as before, 15 for strong threat and horror, but neither of those things are true. There isn't any strong threat and there's virtually no horror. I mean, I would point of it. I was struggling to stay awake. And this was in a day in which I'd seen three other

films, at least one of which was quite hard going, but had been kept me gripped all the way through. And they said, oh, it's killer toy robots, you know, animatronic possessed, but just all this, and I this is, I'm speaking as somebody who thinks that magic and dead of night, and things with

talking toys are just inherently scary. And I mean, I was also thinking, I mean, watching this, this Funhouse, there's a Toby Hooper movie Funhouse, and I haven't thought about or seen Funhouse in a very long time. And whilst I was watching this, I thought, you know, okay, maybe I should go back and watch Funhouse because maybe it's an absolute

master of everything. So you get two sets of the locations and two versions of the creatures and then the original location that nobody had talked about before. And then there's three intertwining narratives, at least one of which gets forgotten halfway through because they just couldn't be bothered. There's this newly menacing marionette. I think the marionette's new because I don't remember the marionette from before, but possibly was there before. I've just forgotten. And I'm at a loss to recall this stuff. And I only saw it yesterday.

We're recording this on Wednesday morning. I saw it yesterday at the end of the day. And it's made no impact on my brain whatsoever. I mean, the whole raison d'etre of this franchise is dormant, apparently dead and destroyed big animatronic animals whose eyes suddenly light up. Or dormant, animatronic, apparently dead robotic animals that suddenly bash on the windscreen of your car and it goes bang when they do it. And then all this plot, so much plot. I mean, you know, just so many plots. I don't care about any of these things.

I don't believe in any of these people. The only thing that you've got going for you is big, apparently dead, reanimated robotic animal with big teeth whose eyes light up and who bashes on the windscreen of the car. And I mean, there is, as I said, there is one particular cameo in which The camera creeps up behind this, creeps up, creeps up, cramps up, and then they turn around and you literally go, sorry, who that? Oh, is that who that is? And the other thing is, it doesn't help that before these two movies came out, Nick Cage, who I keep wanting to call Nick Cave, Nick Cage basically made Willys Wonderland, which essentially is Five Nights at Freddy's, but in which he doesn't say anything. But that's a film in which he's a drifter, he winds up in this place, there's all the creatures, and he just beats.

them all up. And I mean, you know, the trailer was better than the film, but at least it just consisted of Nick Cage, not Cave, beating up a bunch of big animals. I mean, and the worst, there's not one, not two, but three endings, all of which set up another film coming. So there's going to be more of this in, I don't know, 18 months time. And I'm going to have to go back and revisit this review to remind myself what happened in this film only to discover that even the next day I couldn't remember because I couldn't be bothered. Okay. Very good. Anyway, correspondents at covenomere.com, once you've seen five nights at Fred is two, if indeed you can be bothered. But it doesn't matter because Mark also has Jay Kelly to review. So that will be nice.

So after all the mental and physical exhaustion of five nights, here we go with something cozy and lovely, which Mark is obviously going to love. So last week, Adam Sandler in it. Well, I'm a fan of Adam Sandler. As you know, Adam Sandler, Punch Strong, love it. So this is the new film by Noah Boundbach, who you did an interview with last week.

American indie darling made his name with the squid and the whale. From whence the band Noah and the whale get their name. Greenberg, Francis R. while we young marriage story, also, of course, co-wrote Barbie with his partner, Greta Gerwig, and you talked about Barbie in the interview. He said, you know, will we see another one? Some of his films I've really liked, really liked, others less so. And this is firmly in the less so category, despite being co-written by Emily Mortimer, of whom I'm a big fan, particularly Dolan M. This, I think, is a self-referential. And to my

mind smug drama about the perils of filmmaking and celebrity. So George Clooney is this super sexy movie star, Jay Kelly, which obviously is a stretch for him. And he's suffering a midlife crisis. He's at a chance, he has a chance encounter with a guy who he used to room with when they were young actors, who at first seems friendly, but then accuses him of stealing his career and he gets into a fight with him. His devoted agent, Ron, played by Adam Sandler. wants him to sign on to a movie, but he's refusing to do it, and he's letting his manager down. He also wants to spend time with his daughter, but she's not going to be able to do that because she's off to Europe. Here's a clip.

I wrapped this last one. I start the Lewis Brothers movie right here on the Lodz. I'll be around for the summer. I'm going to Europe with Rio and Moses and some friends. I told you that. I thought that was in July. No, it was always June. I'm leaving on Saturday for Paris and making her way over to Tuscany. Saturday? I mean, that's Saturday. That's too soon.

I got two weeks off. We won't have had time to hang out. This is your last summer. That's why I want to see my friends. It'll be so lonely here without you. No, it won't. You're never alone. Really?

I think I'm always alone. Thanks, I'm. You are. And that's the joke, because somebody's giving him something. So he dumps his work commitments, and he heads off on a European vacation, nominally because he's going to go and get a tribute award, which he turned down, but now he's going to pick it up, because he wants to go and spend time with his daughter. And then he's

followed by this entourage of helpers slash enablers, including Laura Dern, who is the publicist, I think she is. Anyway, on route to this thing, he goes on a journey. And Noah Bambach talked about this a lot in your interview. And I don't know whether you heard, but whenever anyone starts talking about somebody goes on a journey, my teeth immediately start to grind. Anyway, so he goes on this journey and he spends some time on a train and he meets and charms members of the devoted public he also relives key moments from his life which appear to him like visions like he'll walk in and suddenly this scene will play out with him apparently watching it and um he has a kind of what's it all about jay kelly uh you know uh life thing amidst loads of sun dappled scenery on route

to wherever it is tuscany or wherever it is that they're going to now look There are loads starry filmmakers and film stars making films about filmmaking and the rigours of stariness aren't anything new at all. I mean, you know, you've got Fellini's eight and a half. You've got Spike Jones' adaptation, Woody Allen's Starless memories, and Robert Altman's the player. And all the best of them, all the best of them are ones that sort of, they're kind of quite scathing. And all the worst of them are ones that are basically back slapping. This is in the latter. I mean, they must have dislocated their shoulders slapping.

themselves on the back in the course of this film. It is a film that basically asks George Clooney to just do, George, you know the head wiggle and smiley thing? Do that. Just do that all the way through the film. No matter what's happening, just wiggle your head a bit and smile a little bit. And I think that George Clooney looks bored. I think even George Clooney, head wiggle, smiley, looks bored. But the film is saying, hey, you're spending time in the company of George Clooney with a bunch of really, really, you know, people who really know about filming. I mean, yes, okay, we get to here his manager and his publicist gripe about, oh, it's like raising a kid and how they've basically become in loco parentis. But, you know, anytime it looks like any actual self-examination

is going to happen, he just wiggles his head and he does a smile. And then we're back in coffee advert territory, which you would mention before. He does actually make an espresso in the course of the film. And at the end of the film, we have the real of George because, you know, hey, you know what? I mean, you were saying, God, it must be difficult playing the character that's kind of close to you, but not close to you. And Noah Baumbach said, well, it's actually nothing like George Clooney. Yeah, it is. Sorry.

It doesn't help that none of the characters, none of the characters ring true. I mean, I never believe for one minute that Laura Dern was a publicist or whatever it was that she was meant to be. The film also just keeps gazing out of the window and going, look, look at the scenery. It's George Clooney. Look at the scenery. That's nice in it. Lovely scenery.

And I'm thinking, I don't go to the movies for lovely scenery. I live in Cornwall. I'll just go outside if I want that. Considering the amount of talent, I mean, this is the list of people, Clooney Sandler and Dern, right? Jim Broadbent, Billy Cruller, Riley Keough, Patrick Wilson, Lenny Henry, Isler Fisher, Lars Edinger, even Stacey Keech, as the irascible dad. And the whole thing runs for 132 minutes, and boy, it fell. I mean, I have had journey, I've had delayed, severely delayed journeys on Avanti West Coast that seem to last for shorter periods of time in this. And you remember the player, the film of the player, right?

And then recently we had that TV series, the studio, which I really, really liked. They've got celebrity cameos that are interesting because they're sort of about peeling away the, you know, the mask and looking underneath it. And all this seems to be is just like Noah Bound back saying, look at all these famous people I know. look at it. Imagine what my life is like. And then here's the other thing about it. Netflix insisted that I saw this in the cinema, despite the fact it's about to be on Netflix and that's where everyone's going to see it. Okay? It had a cinematic release, but the cinematic release was scattershot at best. So in order to see the film, because they didn't do a national press show, because they're not members of the FDA, the film distributors association, I had to schlep to Finsbury

park on a Wednesday afternoon to see a 410 screening of the film because it was really important that I as a critic saw it in the cinema. And honestly, I think that backfired. Because I think had I just been sitting on a sofa in my pajamas with a cup of coffee and just, you know, watching this out of one eye, I might have thought, oh, it's all right. It's all right. You know, famous people in nice scenery. It's all right. But sitting there in the cinema, watching this grinding thing going on and on with this kind of catalogue of self-congratulation. I just think it made it worse. I mean, honestly, the perfect place to see this film, well, the perfect place to see this film is not to see it.

But the second best place to see it is on the television when you're doing something else. And every now and then you look at the screen and go, oh, I quite like them. Scenery is nice. It's just, it's rubbish. It's rubbish. It's hugely disappointing. And George just is acting all the way through, just aware that he's acting,

which might be unfair because that's what his life has become. He has become Jay Kelly, and so he is acting all the way through, but it didn't. It felt very... I mean, smug is absolutely the correct word. So that is the end of take one. This has been a Sony Music Entertainment production.

and this week's team was Jen, Eric, Josh, Heather and Dom. The redactor was Paul Simon. And if you're not following the pod already, please do so wherever you get your podcast. Christmas Live is this Sunday. Fane.com.ukuk slash kermode hyphen mayo. If you want to enter Simon and Marks to mind, email us at the normal address to win a very special prize indeed. Don't forget how great Patreon is. How great is Patreon, Mark, would you say?

It's great. It's great. Thanks. So fabulous videos of Sanjeeve. an Elvis impression by your jukebox. Yes. And me on a slappy bass. Yeah.

Thanks for stealing my instrument. No, you're welcome. Thank you. Mark, what is your movie of the week? It was just an accident. Thank you very much indeed for listening. Take two has landed adjacent to this podcast, and hopefully we'll see you on Sunday.