Kermode & Mayo’s Take - Florence Pugh, Sebastián Lelio, Black Panther: Wakanda Forever, The Crown, No Bears, A Bunch of Amateurs

Episode Date: November 11, 2022

Ben Bailey Smith speaks to writer/director Sebastián Lelio and actor Florence Pugh about their haunting new film ‘The Wonder.’ Mark reviews the much-anticipated ‘Black Panther: Wakanda Forever��� the first four episodes of ‘The Crown’ season five, ‘No Bears’ by Iranian filmmaker Jafar Panahi – about two parallel love stories in which the partners are thwarted by hidden, inevitable obstacles, and ‘A Bunch of Amateurs’ – about the survival of one of one of the oldest amateur filmmaking clubs in the world. Plus your correspondence and more You can contact the show by emailing [e-mail] or you can find us on social media: @KermodeandMayo EXCLUSIVE NordVPN Deal ➼ https://nordvpn.com/take Try it risk-free now with a 30-day money-back guarantee! A Somethin’ Else & Sony Music Entertainment production.   Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts   To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Trying to escape the holiday playlist. Well, it's not gonna happen here. Jesus' season for a vacation Fa la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la With sunwing seasons of savings on now, why not ditch the cold and dive straight into sun? Visit your local travel agent or... Sunwing.ca Something that's... You know, I was just wondering what was, when I'm listening to the show, do you seem to suggest that you stay

over at Mayo's now? I do. So Mayo's not here this week, obviously. Where did you, I mean, you didn't knock on my door. No, I didn't where you live. If I knew it, if you'd never told me. You never told me. No, I was in a glamorous, low rent chain hotel establishment.

Okay, but not the same one in which you were. Yes, you went back. I actually had no choice. No, not the same hotel, but the same. The same chain. I mean, yes, because of the train shows, because the train shows we then weren't on and then were on and were a whole bunch of hotel rooms

got booked up, you know, because everyone really wasn't able to be able to travel anyway. So yeah, anyway, it was fine. I had a couple of nights, on my own, which was a novelty because they've turned out they hadn't given the key to somebody else as well. Yeah, nice. No invasions.

Yeah, nice. Anyway, you can hope for it. Yeah, now the mayo thing is, he invited me once, he said, look, if you need someone to stay on Tuesday night, we do have a room upstairs. And that was when the show began. And then I am like the lady in the van. I have just every Tuesday night.

And I do, I send him a text every week saying, is it still okay? And he says, yeah, I suppose so. Fine, so. But I'm a really low impact guest. I turn up at 9.30, I have a cup of tea and a biscuit, and then I make myself scarce, and then I come down first thing in the morning,

I'm like, ninja guest. Yeah, that's my kind of guest. And what class of biscuit are we talking about in the Mayo Household? They have, they have, yeah, but the thing that they, the most recently, they had chocolate, Bendix bitermints. Oh, I know, but here's the weird thing.

So they had a box of Bendix bitermints and he said, would you like one? It's like, yes, of course I'd like one. Thank you very much. But then when I came back the next week, there were still Bendix bitermints in the box, which shows an extraordinary amount of self-control. And I said, wow, that's a major, it's different box. You see, it wasn't the same box. I see. There's no way you can have a look box of those and they're going to last more than like I'm surprised there was even more than one box in a row because it feels like an almost an annual treat a bendix

I know it's usually a kind of festive thing It's it but no they just they just happen to be around and I but I just add the one and then next week It's like oh, you still got the same box note That's a different box Well, I don't know where do you live? I'll come say you have some I'm Wyoming Ken's always Northwest. Oh, that's nice Yeah, Ken's arises like Kilburn way right yeah, yeah, like no Nobody seems to know what's beyond Kilburn in Northwest London So I always just say you know Kilburn. They're like yeah Near there, okay, well the only okay the reason I know Kilburn is that

When I was in a band at school we used to rehearse in the warm lane synagogue Which is Wilson why and so that used to be a stomping I mean I used to sort of you know walk around the carrying amplifiers and guitar So that's that's the reason I know that. Yeah, a lot of studios, a lot of music studios in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in of times we played a new year's Eve set in the mean Fiddler once which was a really big booking. That's huge and I'm much cooler than you think. No I always thought you were cool. I did. I genuinely did and then when we actually met and we both turned out to be Lemonhead's fans I was saying it's a wrap. I'm wearing a lemon head seat shirt. He's worn a come-on-field element head T-shirt.

Maybe my favorite element head T-shirt. Child 2 bought this for me because it was the album that we would, you know, when you're driving your kids around when they're too young to be able to control the, what's on the sit-up on the CD then. So you just play them all your records. And I just, I kept playing come-on-field element head so much that Child 2 actually decided it was a really, really

great album when we were seeing along to it and then he bought me this t-shirt which I love very much. Well, it's great. The indoctrinating your kids in the car is a really wonderful thing. It's an absolute must. An absolute must. Right, so, I suppose we should do some work. What's coming up on the show today?

Reviews of Black Panther were kind of forever, no bears, which is a new film by Jeff Oppenarhy, The Crown, Season 5, and is a new film by Jeff O'Panahi, the crown season five, and also a bunch of amateurs, which I really can't tell you about. And you've spoken to our special guest this week. Yeah, I have. I spoke to Sebastian Lelio and Florence Pew, director and star of the film,

set in the Irish Midlands 1862, the Wanda, and based on the book by Emma Donahue, the writer of Room. And as if that wasn't enough? Yes, on Monday for the Vanguard, we'll be going deeper into the world of films and film at Jason TV with another extra take in which you'll get a bonus review of.

The Swimmers. Yes, and I will also be expanding your viewing in our feature One Frame Back, inspired by the Wanda. Mark will be deciding on a film starring the great Florence Pew. Who is fantastic in everything. I interviewed Florence Pew on stage at the BFI when Lady Macbeth came out. And I remember it was one of those things when she walked into the room.

And of course at that point, she was known, but she wasn't a huge figure. I would say that was a breakthrough. She walked into the room and literally that thing happens that the whole room lights up and you go, oh, okay, you're a total superstar. You can just proper, surely, McLean, full on. Oh yeah, okay, fun. We're in the presence of greatness. So yeah, and then we've got, oh yeah, take it or leave it

You decide which is our word of mouth on a podcast feature and mark will be talking about Speak no evil on show that we were going to do this on the Halloween show But if you've listened to the Halloween show, you'll know there was so much stuff in it We ended up having to move stuff back because it was just massively unwilly. Yeah, so speak no evil Okay, awesome So send your suggestions for elite streaming stuff that we might have missed to correspondence at curmodeomeo.com and do please sign up to our premium value

extra takes through Apple Podcasts or if one prefers a different platform, then one should head to extra takes.com. And if you're already a Vanguardist, of course, as always, we salute you. But actually, I hear that that's not even all that we're offering because if you sign up between now and November 13th you get your first month free, free, free, what free free free free but there it is it's out there so you know what to do. Okay for real. So speaking of the live show which I annoying, was busy and couldn't come down. But, no, here it was great, if it wasn't a little long. It was great, if in the middle of my way. And we have someone

who agrees here, who is this? Oh, Joe Blocks. Dear M&S, regarding the Indigo live show. I've been to, I've been a multiple time attendee at your shows over the years, and as a subscriber, also to your podcast, I'd like to think I'm a van Gogh d'Ester. And even, even more so early that I was first in the queue on the side of caution to arrive early due to current travel issues. However, to my wonderful surprise, I met some even more committed congregation members who on meeting them made me feel very humbled. One young lady traveled all the way down from Bolton, Bolton for your Halloween show,

at the start of the show, a few of us were helping her estimate the time, the end time of the show, as she then had to plan to leave to ensure she wouldn't miss the last back up North. Sadly, I'm sure she'll have had to miss the last 40 minutes due to this inconvenience. So we did overrun.

Yeah. I mean, I'm mown in about going from Northwest London to South East London. This woman's come from Bolton. He says, I also met in the queue of Brummy who just got back from America who made his way to the States of the show and a man from Brighton who was in serious pain with a broken ankle and still made the journey with his walking stick as support to attend the show, displaying an almost Gerard Butler in 300 level of bravery and strength to do so.

We also let him skip to the front of the queue, which I hope for this occasion, you can excuse if it breaks any code of conduct rules. I hope the young lady got her bus in time and got home safely and also hope the gentleman from Brighton felt better once he got to his seat. The show was wonderful fun, can't wait for the next one.

Wonderful community of Angardistas and I hope to meet plenty more in future years. Good luck with the show going forward, both online and live. Joe, blocks. Well, thank you so much for sitting to everybody who came along because it was, no matter, even if you were nearby,

it seemed a long way away. But if you were actually a long way away, it seemed much longer. Yeah, did you get into London? And then, oh, no, you were actually a long way away, I'd say, you could see much longer. Yeah, did you get into London and then, oh, no, you're in this beginning. So Mark, what's new this week? OK, so a bunch of amateurs, which is a documentary directed by

Kim Hopkins, charting the changing fortunes of the Bradford movie makers club, which is apparently Britain's, and I think in some place, I've seen the world's oldest amateur film making club. It used to be the case that filmmaking clubs and societies were absolutely everywhere and they proliferated and they did really, really well. When we meet the Bradford movie makers, their membership is dwindling, their funds are very low, the building that they work from, they haven't paid rent on in five years, and it is in dire need of repair. Outside, the yard is being used as a tipping site by, you know, people are just a drop of, you know, freezes and fridges and furniture. There's graffiti

everywhere. If they're going to keep going, they need to raise funds, they need to raise awareness. And so they decide to do, to have a fundraising evening, which will be films and swing dance, which of course is a perfect combination for me. But is anyone going to come? Meanwhile, they continue to mount their own productions, because they are filmmakers, one of which consists of one of their longest, one of their longest-standing members called Harry. Who we hear at the beginning saying, he wants to remake the opening of Oklahoma with him on

a white horse doing oh what a beautiful morning. The problem is he doesn't sing and he doesn't ride a horse. So they figure okay, maybe there's a way of doing this through the miracle of seizure. Anyway, here is a clip this is taken from the trailer of a bunch of amateurs. Right, the account we've got got £340 at the bank. We're in desperate stretch, really. We can't pay as rent as the mozzly part, but in here. We're going to run out of money.

We're going to put the outside, put the people off. Oh, I've got a bit of a big cup. But we've survived. We've bought a lot of things. It's gone a lot better. I would like to remake Oak the Homer, where I'm riding a white stallion. Oh, I don't think I should risk it. If you wouldn't mind,

put in my shirt, John, and hat. I love the sound of that. Here's the thing. It's wonderful. It's the thing, it's wonderful. It's really, really wonderful. It's very funny. It's a group of people who are kind of, they're a collective ecosystem. You know, they bicker and they squabble and they, but they are, they're like a family.

And they're doing something which is, you know, so many of these filmmaking clubs have just basically died out because the world has changed. There is a very, very heartfelt moment in which one of them suffers a bereavement and then comes to the club in the evening because he says I just couldn't bear the thought of being at home. So you see this group of people, some of you know, odd balls, but you know, real movie enthusiasts, all of whom share the love of the magic of the movies, sometimes in completely sort of strange ways about wanting to remake a glauomer. And they're fighting against insurmountable odds, the building is falling down, the membership

is dwindling the money, but they're just so enthusiastic about it. And the thing I love about the documentary is that, you know, that kind of that balance between laughing at and laughing with people. And it's really, if you ever see a documentary that's laughing at its subjects, it's always a sort of nasty taste in the mouth. But laughing with them is a completely different thing. You come out of a bunch of amateurs feeling genuinely uplifted. I mean, it's funny, it's moving, it's oddly profound because there is something about that love of cinema and that love of being with a group of other people who all loves cinema, even when you're squabbling with them and worrying about the fact that there's no funds left to pay for the tea and the biscuits. I thought it was lovely.

I think it was right now, because it's been a bit of a strange time, hasn't it? I think this is exactly the kind of film that we need. I think if you want a really good night out and you want to watch a bunch of people, the real people, this is a proper documentary film making it, the film's recorded over a long period of time because of course COVID strikes as well. So, you know, against all these sort of internet and then along comes COVID in which suddenly the one thing that's holding everything together that they can all get together in the clubhouse, even that's not going to be possible. I don't want to give away anything but what I will tell you is you will come out of this with a spring in your step and a song in your heart and a love of cinema reaffirmed. It's so charming, it's so uplifting, so delightful, you will love it, but I can't wait to see it. But what's the

sort of release situation? It's in cinemas, you'll have to search for cinemas, I mean, it's not going to be that hard. Put a bunch of amateurs into Google and you know you don't think screen something that's really where it's not gonna be that hard. Put a bunch of amateurs into Google and you know, you don't think screen, somebody will tell you where it's screening, you will find it and you will love it. But I think anyone will, it's just, it's so, it's so big-hearted. I loved it.

Ah, that's great. That's great to hear, you know. And you're right, it'd be really nice to see something that celebrates British culture in a way that feels like we can all jump on board with it, you know. And also, like I said, celebrates the love of cinema and the love of watching movies with other people, which I think is something that we all feel a profound need for. Anyway, please do go and see it. I'd love to know what you think, but it was also really, really funny. All over it. All over it.

And still to come, what else have we got? We're going to be reviewing Wakanda Forever, which is the new Black Panther movie, No Bears, which is a new movie by Archifal Pinahi. And we have our special guests. Of course, yeah, Florence Pugh, who plays the lead in the new film The Wonder, and Sebastian Lelio, the film's director.

At time for the ads now, unless, of course, you're lucky enough to be in the Vanguard, in which case, we'll be back before you can say in Dowie. Happy Nord Christmas. Protect yourself whilst Christmas shopping online and access all the Christmas films from around the globe. Plus, when you shop online, you'll have to give websites your card details and other sensitive data

like your personal addresses. Those websites should already have their own encryption built into their payment systems, but to be on the safe side, you can use a VPN to ensure that all data coming to and from your device is encrypted. Even if you're using an unsafe Wi-Fi, you'll still be able to shop securely with a VPN. And you can access Christmas films only available overseas by using streaming

services not available in the UK. To take our huge discount of your Nord VPN plan, go to nordvpn.com slash take. Our link will also give you four extra months for free on the two year plan. There's no risk with Nord's 30-day money bank guarantee. The link is in the podcast episode description box. Highest team podcast listeners, Simon Mayo. And Mark Kermot here. I'm excited to let you know that the new season of the Crown and the Crown, the official podcast, returns on 16th of November to accompany the sixth and final season of the Netflix epic

Royal Drama series. Very exciting, especially because SuperSub and Friend of the show Edith Bowman hosts this one. Indeed, Edith will take you behind the scenes, dive into conversation with the talented cast and crew from writer and creator Peter Morgan to the crown's Queen Elizabeth, Emelda Staunton. Other guests on the new series include the Crowns Research team, the directors, executive producers Suzanne Mackie and specialists such as Voice Coach William Connaker and props master Owen Harrison. Cast members including Jonathan Price, Selim Dor, Khalid Abdullah, Dominic West and Elizabeth

the Bikki. You can also catch up with the story so far by searching the Crown, the official podcast, wherever you get your podcast. Subscribe now and get the new series of the Crown, the official podcast, wherever you get your podcast. Subscribe now and get the new series of the Crown, the official podcast, first on November 16th. Available wherever you get your podcasts. This episode is brought to you by Mooby, a curated streaming service dedicated to elevating great cinema from around the globe. From myConnect directors to emerging oturs, there's always something new to discover, for example. Well, for example, the new Aki Karri's Mackey film Fallen Leaves, which won the jury prize

it can, that's in cinemas at the moment. And if you see that and think I want to know more about Aki Karri's Mackey, you can go to Mooby the streaming service and there is a retrospective of his films called How to Be a Human. They are also going to be theatrically releasing In January Priscilla, which is a new Sophia Coppola film, which I am really looking forward to since I have an Elvis obsession. You could try Mooby Free for 30 days at Mooby.com slash Kermit and Mayo. That's M U B I dot com slash Kermit and Mayo for a whole month of great cinema for free.

And we're back, we are back. So top 10 this week in at number 10, what have we got? Ticket to Paradise. Which is, you know, it's completely, it's just fluff, but there is a place for fluff and I can't if you enjoyed it. You know, it's like good looking stars, nice looking locations, completely predictable jucks. Yep.

Does it feature the song? No. No. At least I don't think so. No. No. Sing me the song. I don't recognize what you just sang. 80s. I don't know. Is that 80s pop rock? I was listening to pop rock in the 80s. I don't recognize that. I don't think that's in the song in the film. Or if it is, I just didn't spot it. Anyway, it's, you know, maybe they couldn't afford it.

Exactly. I don't know if he's pop it to so expensive. At number nine, barbarian, which is, barbarian is a hard film to talk about because it's, it looks, It's a horror movie. It begins with a set up that two people, a woman arrives at an Airbnb and when she gets there, it turns out that there's somebody already in the Airbnb. It's been double booked and you, and it's, okay, this is a kind of... This is a dream. This is a dream to gamble. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and it's going to be, and then the film moves in lots of different

directions. And unfortunately, the thing about what I've discovered is if you say anything about it, somebody goes, I was a plot spoiler. Right. So, in order to avoid going through this, we had a long discussion. Maybe it is in Georgina's camera, guys. I don't know. Yes, it's one of those films in which anything you say, like literally anything you say, even the cast list, somebody goes, it's a plot spoiler.

So suffice to say, it is a really smart, intelligent, right, witty horror film that constantly turns your expectations on their heads. And anything else apparently is a plot spoiler. Although we had a very good, we had a good discussion on the Halloween show about what actually constitutes a plot spoiler. My argument is, I think people now are much too ready to say that something is a plot spoiler after they've seen a film and then, because quite often, if you're a critic, you will talk about something that is only a spoiler if you've seen the film because if you haven't, it's not because you don't. Yeah. Well, I mean, you mentioned the opening

to the wonder. Yes. And when I was interviewing Florence, I didn't mention it because I had no idea about that opening and when I saw it, I was genuinely taken aback. I didn't know what was happening. Okay, well we'll talk about this after the interview because that is kind of, because you were worried that you thought that that might be a...

I don't think it's a, it's not literally a plot spoiler because it doesn't spoil anything to do with the plot, but in terms of the experience of watching that movie, not knowing that that thing was gonna happen at the start of that film, I found genuinely shocking. I was like, wow.

So here's the thing, that's amazing. After your interview, we will discuss why that's important. Okay, all right. So we got some more horror, but before that, eight, it's Triangle of Sandness. Which arguably has a horror inflection

because there is the very lengthy vomiting scene, which is kind of, you know, the Mr. Chris, have you seen Triangle of San? I've not seen it yet. I was literally about to go to the cinema because I had a friend saying, you have to watch this film, you have to watch this film. Then I realized it was by the same guy I did force Mejure and the square. And I was like, okay, now I'm definitely going. Then I made the mistake of listening to you, which I am want to do, saying it's not as

good as either force. And I was like, do, saying it's not as good as either for the whole thing. And I said all the square. Oh, yeah. And I didn't go. I decided to hang out with my kids and said, I think it's his least successful film because it's the softest target. So you've got arms dealers, rich people and models. You know, some billionaires aren't nice.

That's right, surprise me by telling me that some billionaires aren't nice. You know, Halloween on Musk. Yeah. A seven horror film smile, which I like. I've had a lot of correspondence about how seriously one should or shouldn't take its treatment of mental health issues. I think it's absolutely metaphorical. More importantly, I think it works.

I think it's got a couple of very creepy moments in it. I mean, it's a, you know, it's a quiet, quiet bang horror film, but it does it works. I think it's got a couple of very creepy moments in it. I mean, it's a quiet quiet bang horror film, but it does it well Six we have pray for the devil so there are two films in the top 10 I haven't seen pray for the devil and I haven't seen number five one piece film read either largely because last week we would out in the O2 doing the Halloween show So do we have any correspondence on either of those two? I don't think so. Okay, so if anyone's seen either of those two for next week's show, I will try and watch

Pray for the Devil before next week, but send us your reviews of either Pray for the Devil or one piece film read. Yeah, please. And then one piece film read is at five, it's an anime film, that's as much as we know. And at number four, we have Living. Which is really moving.

So this is a remake of Akiru, which is the Curacao film from 1952. This has Bill Nye as a guy working in a bureaucratic environment who discovers that he doesn't have all the time in the world after all, and it's set in the 1950s. And he wants to make the most of the time he has left, he wants to live a little but he doesn't know how. And the film is then about how he discovers or doesn't discover, maybe does discover that there is more to life than perhaps he thought. I thought it was really well done.

It's very sentimental, but in a way that's very moving, it's very understated, because I should go right to the screenplay, so I mean, it's beautifully written. Bill Nye is great. Emily was terrific in the lead female role, she was on the show last week, and she was just a great guest, really, really good fun,

but she's really great in the film. I think the thing that's most impressive about it is, if you revisit a classic, like a Currier, you will always come up against people saying, well, you can't possibly go in it. I'm sorry, that's it. And you look at this and you go, actually, no, you can. This, it's close enough to the original, to be respectful,

but it's got its own rhythm and texture and quirks that make it absolutely its own beast and it's very moving. It is. Yeah, but tears of, in that awful phrase, tears of joy. You know, I can't remember what it was the week before last that you said you cried out and I thought, come on now. Everything. At three, we have banshees in the Sharon. In the Sharon.

So now you were just saying before I that you really want to see this. I do, yeah. This is one of the films of the year. It's a really dark but really funny and profound tragedy comedy. By Mark McDonald, who was on the show, you can still hear Simon's interview with him

if you go back to a previous podcast, Colin Farrell and Brendan Gleason, as these two friends on an island who have known each other for a very long time, and one day Brendan Gleason's character says, I don't want to be friends with you anymore, because I don't have time to waste listening to your nonsense. And which sounds like a funny setup, okay?

But it's actually very tragic, because it's to do with a character realizing that death is not so far away. And suddenly, I think I've got limited amount of time, I cannot waste that time talking to somebody who has been my friend simply because they're nice, because nobody remembers nice. I must do something profound with my life.

And I think it's a really deep meditation upon mortality. Other people think it's a kind of study of toxic masculinity. Other people think it's like, Father Ted goes to hell. It's really, really funny and really dark and really heartbreaking. Same sort of trio as in Bruce, isn't it? Well, Colin Farrell and Brendan Gleason

at the center of it, yeah, absolutely. But didn Gleason at the centre of it, yeah absolutely. And look, but didn't look done at it. We've done it, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh sorry, I put you in on screen. Yes, I think you went on screen, but yes, those three. Could the creative trio be re-embranaged? Yeah, I'm really looking forward to that one. And two is another film we spoke about before we were on air.

The, I mean, award season, never know. Maybe, maybe in Oscar Nom. L Lyle Lyle Crocodile. For best animatronic or CG Crocodile. What is the rhyming title? I've seen the poster and I cannot make out what the film is, yeah. Okay, here's the thing. I've seen the film and I cannot make out what the film is.

I literally spent a whole time going, what I don't, what is, what? It's like, so he said crocodile, it's a crocodile who doesn't, doesn't talk, but he sings. And he squarely aimed at children. No, yes. I tell the who it's aimed at, of crocodiles maybe. I mean, I mean, I, I watch the whole thing thinking, I have no idea what's going on. It wants to be Paddington. In an ideal on. It wants to be Paddington.

In an ideal world, it wants to be Paddington. You know, think about that. So it's kind of, you know, Paddington is a talking bear. And we all just accept that because it's lovely and charming and wonderful and it's been with you. La La Crocodile, a singing crocodile, moves in with a family. There's a guy who's a theater in,

you know, he wants to use him as part of his act, but he can't talk, but he can't sing sing but then he gets stage fright and you're going what? What? What is it? Singing crocodile's got stage for the synchrony doesn't talk has got so what? It's rubbish. It's I have no idea why it's still number two Well, I was just gonna ask you that and I wonder if it's literally just a timing thing half-tune There's nothing else in the town.

Nothing else in the town. You can't take them since you're small. You can't take them since you're a pop area. You can't take them since you're a panchise of it is Sharon. And if it's you, you can't see the crocodile thing. Look out, the window in his raining. What are you going to do? Yeah, a large crocodile.

A large, large crocodile. That's the only way of explaining it. And the enemy once said that the reason queen became successful was what they called vacuum theory, was that there wasn't anything else around in the British, what they referred to as heavy metal scene at that point. That's why Queen became successful. Of course, it was nonsense.

Queen became successful because they were great songwriters. But that idea of vacuum theory, I think, is interesting. This became successful because there wasn't anything else there. Yeah, yeah, really benefited from a complete lack of competition. And at number one, at the top of this competition for top spot is DC's Black Adam. I love the rock. I love Dwayne Johnson.

Well, really enough, I've now had people saying, why'd you call Dwayne Johnson the rock? He goes, he really moved that far. Yeah, he really has moved that far on that there. And now Dwayne Johnson fans who don't even know that he was Dwayne the rock. He really moved that far on. Yeah, he really has moved that far on that. There are now two in Johnson fans who don't even know that he was Dwayne the rock, Johnson. I think he's great and I think he's funny. I think the movie is a total mess. It's just like a hot potch of incoherent ideas. Too many characters, too many plot threads, too much people standing around explaining it, too much shunky CG. I mean, DC, when DC get things wrong, they really get them badly wrong. And I think Black

Adam is a car crash of a film. Again, it's number one because it's a superhero movie that's competing against La La Crocodile. Yeah. And then then a lot of horror. Yeah, exactly. The fortunate there's no big Marvel release or anything, you know, nearby. That's about to change, isn't it? I'm sure.

I kind of, I'm just kind of a little done. I'm sure there's going to be loads of more great superhero things. Well, we got to talk about what kind of forever later on in the show. Of course, yeah, yeah. Yeah, my, you know, my kids got me heavily into Marvel and I never thought I would. I mean, the first time I ever did this show, I think I created a few enemies by saying,

superhero movies, they're for kids. I want to watch some films for adults, you know. And my kids were like, no, they've films have a lot of emotion. If you watch them in the right order, you know, it will help you, we'll get you in there. And they were absolutely right. By the time I got to end game, you know, I was so emotionally invested.

Although as far as the Marvel universe is concerned, after end game, it's been very hard to pick the bat on up again. Yes. And I feel like I might be done. Yeah, it isn't, but we'll talk about that later. Okay. Well, good. We have some very special guests popping up in a second.

Our guests for this episode are British star Florence Pugh, who stars as a nurse called Lib Wright in the Wonder and the film's director Sebastian Lelio. And you're going to hear my interview with them after this clip. Anna O'Donnell doesn't eat. If a patient in the hospital refuses to eat, we use force. The girl is not to be forced. Nor interrogated or badgered. But she is also not to be denied food, should she ask for it?

The girl has lived miraculously without food. Since her 11th birth, the heraculously is not how she's done it. The purpose of the watch is to determine exactly how anod Donald has survived with no food. So you want us to watch her? And that was a clip from The Wonder, and I am super excited to be joined by a star, Florence Pugh, and writer-director Sebastian Lelio. Hello, guys.

Hello. Hello. Hi. Hello. Hi. Everyone else? Yes. I watched this movie yesterday. I'm still a little haunted by it. I haven't stopped thinking

about it. I didn't read any press about it, not anything before I went in. And I think I benefited hugely from it, because there are certain things that happen in this movie that I think it was better for me not to know. So bearing that in mind for our audience with no spoilers, could you set the story up for us? I think you'd be better today. So, let's do a go for it. Okay, I'll try. It's the story about an English nurse that is summoned by a group of notables from this rural town in Ireland to watch a girl that is allegedly surviving without eating for a few months.

So, they have to understand if it's a miracle or a hoax and Lib Florence's character arrives with her rationality and collides with this community where there is a lot of religious fervor. And they are all willing, most of them, want for the girl to be a miracle. So, so, leap has to use reason to connect the dots to try to understand what are the dynamics happening there and how the girl is being kept alive. And

by the time she understands the mechanics of how she's being kept alive, she also learns the reasons why the girl is doing the sacrifice of fasting. And the reasons are devastating. And from that point on, Liv has to face a moral dilemma, what to do, and what she does, which is quite extreme, transcends

reason. And that's what I really loved about about the novel and about the, you know, the main character's journey. That's expertly done. That's expertly done. Thank you. There was, there was a moment when I thought, oh, wait, is this kind of like anti-religious? Then then I thought, no, wait, hold on. It kind of felt anti-certainty. And I walked out wondering if the only way to survive, to live your life as a human without going crazy, is to engage in some level of artifice.

What do you think about that, Florence? I think that is the whole plot. It's one person coming in with a certain belief and a certain understanding of what it is that they need to believe and what it is that they've succeeded with. That's her job and she comes into a village of people that don't want her there. And that level of pride of understanding what it is that she is and her knowledge of why she's been brought here and also her knowledge of what she is at a nightingale nurse. For me, that was the interesting twist of her fighting back to people that don't want

her help and will not listen. And how can she change their mind? And in changing their minds, she also ends up creating a bond and a friendship with this young girl. And because of her flaws and because of her mistakes and because of her also not being completely pure, she is also able to then understand these people and understand their pain and their loss because she also has pain in her loss. And essentially, you're kind of asking for one of them to become the bigger person

to understand why it is that that person's trying to help and why it is that these people don't want to listen. And unfortunately, if they still both stand their ground, nothing's going to happen and this girl is going to die. But also fascinating that when we meet her, we feel like, oh, she's like the atheist. She's sure of herself. They're so sure of their faith.

But also, she, Lib has her little rituals as well. Yeah. Like, not sort of nonsensical rituals, if you like. Well, I'm also saying this earlier. It's like, you know, I've always picked scripts where the character is like constantly being loud about pushing back. And I love playing a loud character.

I love playing a woman on a mission to be like, I need everybody to believe what I am believing. And on this one, it's so much more complex than that because we're dealing with a completely different era where religion was, it was everything. Religion was a massive part of day-to-day life, especially in Ireland. So no matter how much she understands about medicine, she couldn't just say you're all speaking a load of nonsense this girl is dying because she has to be polite about it. And so like that to me was fascinating when reading the script and then coming to the

film was, no, it can't be that loud. She can't be that loud. She can't be that, she can't be a bruiser because she also has to keep the respect of these people. Yeah, one of the most repeated lines, I think, is probably something that lines of, you don't know us, or you don't know who we are. Yeah, and that's kind of true.

Yeah, totally. And finding that balance and being meticulous with how much we push live, how much we pull her back was a really interesting, it was very, we had to be very delicate with it because I mean, ultimately if she came in, you know, accusing everybody and being aggressive, the story wouldn't play out. So her arc of being, you know, calculating the situation was incredibly important.

Sebastian, what drew you to the novel? How did you come across it? Why did you think this has to be a film? A guy named producer suggested that I should read this book. For some reason, he thought that along with Tessa Ross, the producers of the film, they thought that I could be the right person to tell this story. And I fell in love with the novel and the specificity of that world. And Madonna, you wish us that.

Exactly. And Anima was always very generous in allowing the writing process to translate literature into cinema, which can be quite brutal at times. But yeah, I just loved the territory. I thought it was a great opportunity to portray a great role for an actress. It's going through the entire emotional spectrum and that is really like really moving from A to B and changing in the process and changing that entire community in the process of as the human folds.

I love the collision between reason and magical thinking, between science and faith. As you were saying, I don't think it's a film anti-religion, I think it's a film pro-spiritual elasticity. And that's something I really connected with and something that I admired from the character of the nurse of Lib. You were saying the producer's thought of you, which fascinates me because obviously, when we see a lot of writer directors often, they might be telling a story that's very closely linked to their own background or a world that they know.

But you know, I mean, what tells you to these stories that are so far? In the specificities of the culture, it has nothing to do with my background. I happen to be a human being. And I grew up in Chile during a dictatorship in a very Catholic country. So I had my connections to understanding,

the dynamics that were taking place there. I thought I knew what they were about. And so it's a great opportunity to learn, you know, in this case about Ireland, in the 1860s, etc. But ultimately behind all that, what's happening is timeless. It's human. It's power dynamics. and that is something that you know anyone should be entitled to explore if there's a genuine Interest you know a genuine yeah curiosity honestly couldn't agree more You know the idea that we should only be allowed to tell one kind of story because that's where we're from is For me problematic and incredibly limiting. Florence, I have to ask you this, actually, this is double pronged because I need some help because I'm not a

journalist. I don't know how to pronounce her name. The little girl, Kyla Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela. Keela give that level of sensitivity and intensity and scare the crap out of me at times. Like she did, I just wanted to know what it was like working with her. And also, I just found out that the woman who plays her mom is her mom. So that dynamic as well. Keela is, first of all, I should say, she's a very intelligent. I mean, she's not a young girl anymore,

but when we made it, she is very, very intelligent. And the way that she attacked a script is, I mean, on par with adults that I've worked with in the industry for how many years. That's a little song, hopefully. Yeah, but the way that she attacked it, she broke it down. Like, we had a few weeks of rehearsal where we would just sit around around table. We had all share our thoughts and ideas and the sensitivity that she brought to lines and the thoughtfulness that she brought to this beat and that beat. She is fantastic. Her parents are equally fantastic and her parents give her the space to perform.

They give her the space to be creative. Her dad was there on set every single day because obviously Elaine was working and so she's in corsets and it's a lot to be thinking about. So there was always one parent that was there to be looking after her even if Elaine was working and it just meant that that whole dynamic we had all chat about scenes together or we'd come in and also by my my relationship with her was wonderful. On camera it's sometimes quite aggressive like the way that I touch her, the way that I'm checking her, I'm shoving my fingers in a mouth, you know, I'm really... One scene in particular, yeah exactly and so I need to make sure that parents

are completely okay with me doing that and I think it was a really wonderful family dynamic to have on set. Usually parents on set is it's a very hard i'n gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r

gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r So for example, if I was, you know, doing a scene with Keela, you have to figure out hours with children on set and They'd be like no Keela wants to be there for your eye line and you're like no, but that's very grateful of you I'm very grateful, but she also needs to go and rest But you know, we were dealing with people that understood the industry and gave so much to the industry and and wanted her to succeed

And so you know, she is amazing. She also has a great core underneath it. And it was so easy to act with her, because... I could feel that. When you act with that level of quality, it makes everybody's job easy. Yeah, totally. Very briefly, and again, without giving anything away, the opening frame and the final frame of this movie

shocked me, and I'll never forget it. It's good. That's good. Unbelievable. I can't believe the'll never forget it. That's good. That's good. Unbelievable. I can't believe the boldness of it. Were you worried? Be honest. Were you worried at all about that?

I know. Please, please don't give any big a way because... I was like, I just thought if an eyebrows out of place, if the tone is slightly wrong, it could ruin the entire... I looked to him one day and he was like, I was wide, I go, what's the matter? He goes, is the beginning weird? And I was like, Sebastian, you're making a weird film. Of course it's weird. And he was like, of course it's weird. I was like, yeah, it's a weird film. It's a weird beginning. It's a weird ending. Just go with it. And for us, it was like, you'll make it work.

And I was like, you know, permanently shaking. No, yeah, of course I was worried, but I'm a big fan of the, you know, the meta-modernist era of the 60s. Yeah, like now that Godard died, you know, the opening of contempt, for example. So it's nothing new, it's almost like classical to it today. But in a film where we are exploring belief systems and the power of fiction in our lives, the stories we tell ourselves, the stories we co-create and tell each other,

how that the power that those have thought that the film needed to say, listen, you will, you, the reviewer will be exposed to a fictional construct and you will believe in it in the same way in which the characters that are being observed are believing in their own story. So what are you believing in? Who are you living in? Well, you are an incredibly brave man, because I was, I

was in the edge of my seat terrified. I'll never forget it. As an unforgettable experience, I think as a triumph. Thanks so much for your time. Thank you. I did that interview, I guess, in my tiny brain. I assumed that the review would be in the same episode of the take. Well, and it's quite surprised to be in a fan of the show, obviously, to be listening, and then hearing you do the review. I was like, oh, right. And then doubly surprised that

the thing that I tried so hard to hide, you just would do brilliant straight out there. Okay, so the film is in cinemas now. It comes to Netflix on the 16th, which is why we're running the interview now, because it's on Wednesday. So that opening that you, that you, as you said, try very hard not to sport, it's the opening of the film. I understand what your issue is,

but here's what might taken it would be. The film begins with Neve Algar's voice saying, this is the beginning of a film called The Wonder. And then she then goes on to say, the people in this story believe the story completely. And without stories, we are nothing. And what that does is it sets the table. Now, this incidentally is Sebastian Lelio's doing.

It was, this was his idea that we should then start outside of the movie and we go in. So if you look at something like the human voice, which is the Pedro Amadova short film with Tilda Swinton, that does a similar thing. And Lelio himself refers to Goddard's, the reprieve in which you see the camera tracking along these tell me we can see lights, we can see the fact that the film set tells you you're set. It is cables it is a break-de-n-a-lion device it is the thing which says this is filmed but more importantly what it says is it's a story and the reason it's important and the

reason it's not a spoiler I believe is because it says to you we're about to tell you a story it's a story which is performed, but it's a story. But the reason that's important is because it's a story about stories. It's a story about what people believe. Now, when I saw the film, it made me think of things like Requiem or stations of the cross or Lords, which are films about people who believe in a religious story and their belief in the story appears to affect the physical world. I think, I don't think any of that is a spoiler.

I think it's a story about a story. And particularly if you know anything about Sebastian Lilliot is back catalog, that's what he does. You know, he does it. So I thought the interview was wonderful. And I just thought it was, what I thought was really lovely was hearing your nervousness about addressing it because it was like, you know, it was like that's the point.

Yeah, yeah. That's the story that you wanted to tell about the story that's about stories was a story in itself. I thought it was just really like. I thought it was great interview. Good. It's just a great film. It's really good.

I mean, I was on the edge of my seat all the way through. There's nothing more satisfying than doing an interview with people who have just made a piece of work that you're really impressed by. It just makes the whole thing easy. So this is actually a great little segue because going from what you believe in, what you believe in, what is the story, what is the truth.

We're going to talk a little bit about the crown season five, and I feel like at the moment, I mean, me and you both gorge a lot of news. I feel like every day there's a new news story of outrage about the crown and what's real and what isn't. I think the last thing I read was John Major was freaking out. Oh really? Yeah, about a scene that featured him, he said, nonsense, it never't. I think the last thing I read was John Major was freaking out. Oh really? Yeah, about a scene that featured him. He said, nonsense, it never happened.

Hey listen, he's played Johnny Lee Miller. John Major, Johnny Lee Miller is playing you. You know, step down, man. You know, like sink into that hot tub and enjoy it for a moment. Johnny Lee Miller. I know. But yeah, so like seems like endless controversy. Okay.

I don't know. Well, I don't watch it. I, okay, so I'm blithely unaware of the controversy because of the day that we're recording this. I have been up to my neck in the American midterms. Anyway, so series five of which I have seen four episodes. Other stuff that I've read, I've read has been by people who've seen more, but I got sent the first four.

So just for anyone who hasn't been following this, Emelda Staunzen takes over from the saint of Olivia Colmanon before her clairvoye as the queen, Dominic West, Nancy, his prince Charles, again, you go, yeah, Prism, Dominic West, I'll take that. That was Josh O'Connor in the previous series. He was so fabulous and also had a kinder. He's, isn't he great? I fell in love with him on the, the, the Darls series. I just thought he was so funny, so good, so brilliant. And then of course, the Prince Charles thing came

I was like, yeah, but you don't need a cast in direct, you really do. Just a genius. Just point at Josh. Elizabeth Tbiki as Princess Diana, taking her from Emma Corrin, who is great, and Leslie Manville is Princess Margaret, who we're here in this clip, confronting Queen Elizabeth about the fact that she was forced to step away from the love of her life. With her son and water, Crop's fear, let me ask, how many times has Philip done something? Interview when you couldn't be strong, when you couldn't be angry, when you couldn't be decisive, when you couldn't be, how many times have you said a silent prayer of gratitude

for him and thought to yourself, why didn't I have him, I'd never be able to do it. How often Peter was my son, my water. There's the manville who has literally never put a foot roll on screen. Agreed. In her life. So, of the four episodes that I've seen, there's the Anisarribalist episode. There's an episode about the Queen's love of the Royal Yop Britannia. There's an episode tracing the Rise of the Fire family from, you know, selling Coca-Cola on the streets to buying

the rits and harrads and backing charrots a fire, of course. There's a lot of stuff about the isolated Diana cooperating at Arms' length with the book, you know, Diana Herchery's story. Charles is fury about it. There's the memory of the toe-sucking headlines and the, you know, the... Oh, yeah. Yeah. Something we all blanked out and then suddenly is back there.

So obviously, now I've seen, I would think of the previous series of the crowd. I've seen probably about one and a half series in total of the previous. I've been dipping in the rest of my family of, of watch more of it. I've enjoyed a lot of it. I've been dipping in the rest of my family of watching more of it. I've enjoyed a lot of it. This material is obviously by nature closer to home and fresher in the mind because also it kind of breathed

with Peter Morgan, it kind of brings it full circle when you go back to the Queen. So you know what this is going. Of the stuff that I saw of those first four episodes, I actually thought the most interesting episode so far was the one about the fire, it's about Muhammad and Dodi fired and with Sun draw and Cali, I've done it doing great work in those two roles.

And one of the things interesting about that episode is the almost total absence of royalty. I mean, there is, there are the royal connections, but it really isn't about the royalty. It's outside of that. And this appears to have absolutely got under people's skin. So on the one hand, the outrage you mentioned about people saying this didn't happen, that didn't happen, blah, blah, blah, blah. But on the other hand, when you have the episode that isn't really about, it's like,

oh, okay, that's not what the crowd's about. I think of the stuff that I've seen. I think Dominic West is great. He's got the mannerisms of Charles really well. And Josh O'Connor is a tough actor for a good. He was so good. I Josh O'Connor is a tough actor for a good, because he was so good. I think DeBikki's brilliant and joined that list of people who played Princess Diana,

which kind of got like, you know, her somewhere near the top and then, well, somewhere near the bottom for anyone who's long enough to remember the whole thing. And Kristen Stewart, who I actually thought was brilliant, as I thought she did, she dispended it. She did, she did. She did.

Um, I saw the only bit of press I saw was by the Daily Mail television critic who said, this series of the crowd is unrecognizable in its tone and almost unlimited budget and all star castes become a monstrous perversion of itself. It is descended into scandal-mongering, intent on inflicting every possible embarrassment on the royal family.

It is now a nakedly Republican polemic using embarrassment as its chief weapon against the monarchy. And I read that and went, oh yeah, and I really did like it. That was, yeah, that was exactly the point. I can verify all Daily Mail journalists do sound exactly like that.

Yeah, well, this in a way did that perfect thing about you read something that's utterly full-hardy and ridiculous and what it makes you do is you go, yeah, no, I was struggling to put into words what I liked about it, but thank you. Just nailed it. That was exactly it. I mean, I understand the thing about being

dramatically more disparate in the way. Because obviously, the odd thing is that the crowd is kind of like Doctor Who. Is that there's an ongoing narrative, but each episode has also got its own internal narrative. I remember Doctor Who used to be a story went over five shows, but now it's all internal. And I've read a couple of things that say, well, the first episode is slow, but it really picks up after episode four. I've only seen the first four. And by episode three, I was fine. I mean, I binge watched all of them and did enjoy them very much. I think that the, if that kind of that level of scandal about it, you know, how dare it is, well, surely

that's what any kind of recent history thing should be doing. Absolutely. And if people suddenly imagine that, well, up until now, it was true and respectful, but now it's untrue and disrespectful. You go, yeah, that's because you closely remember the recent events and you're feeling prickly about them. And yeah, I enjoyed it. I thought the performances were good. I thought Elizabeth Biggin was really, really good as Diana.

I do think that again, that's a hard role to fill. But I thought that the episode about the Fires was actually really well done. And I thought the performances were good. And I'm enjoying it. And then having read the Daily Mail, getting its knickers in a twist about it, it was like, yeah, no, that's exactly what I like it good.

Carry on doing whatever that was. More of that, please. And some people have said, you know, it's a soap opera. You go, yeah, really? No, you know, wow, well done, Sherlock. Yeah, as they say, well done. It is a soap opera. It is, yes, I'm sorry I was editing on the hook.

No, it's good. I'm impressed that this has stayed on the hook. No, it's good. I'm impressed that this has stayed a family show without, you know, as I feel like you guys, shall we say, a little more in control of this. Well whilst we're having a laugh and before we get into the ads, Mark, we're going to continue the hilarity. Oh, are we doing that? We're doing that.

Oh, great. Okay, because you have to be better at this than my well I didn't write these jokes, but I do have I have a film adjacent joke that I had on the end. Okay, okay So yeah, let's do it. Let's let's let's go. Let's go. Let's go. I'll after lift There it is. Hey Mark. Hey Ben. It's important to talk about me. It's funny already. Thank you. It's important to talk about mental health, isn't it? I was feeling a bit low this week. The good lady her indoors put her hand on my shoulder and whispered into my ear one word. You know what, that meant the world to me. I was wondering where that was going.

Yeah, so did I. Hey, Mark, you know, I have a lot of admiration for you. Not just your critical skills, but also your... You're actually acting this out. You're like literally, you're giving it the form. Yeah, give everything. I mean, listen, you've got to. I didn't write this, so I'm just gonna hope

that some acting skills bring out. Yeah, and not just my acting skills, not just your critical skills, but also your fashion sense. Okay. In fact, I've just ordered a custom reversible Harrington jacket. Yeah, I can't wait to see how that turns out.

Ooh. And just before we finish this section, it's terrible. Quick parish notice on Monday, we start diarrhea awareness week, and that runs till Friday. That's horrible. It is horrible. It's actually horrible.

I've got a joke that I actually do like, which I didn't write as written by my friend Olaf Flaffle. But it's filming Jason, so I thought I'd say good for the show. I'm actually, I've decided to seek out the aid of actors to help cure my list. Anne Hathaway, but I'll ask Colin Firth. That is actually surprisingly good. I think there's something really sweet about that joke.

So, big shout out to Ola, he's a very, very funny man, a great joke writer. And Hathaway, we're calling for... I'll ask Colin Thath. Anyway, now that we're on our way out of the laughter lift, what have we got still to come? Still to come, reviews of Jafar Panna, he's no bears, and Black Panther will come to forever. Awesome. And we'll be back after this, unless of course you're a Van Gogh, the stone which case your service will not be interrupted.

Trying to escape the holiday playlist. Ha, well, it's not gonna happen here. Jesus, a season for a vacation. Fa la la la la la la la la la la la. Leave the code for a sunny location. Fa la la la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, visit your local travel agent or... Sunwing.ca Welcome back. And so, Mark, what is new and fresh and shiny and lovely? So, no bears, which is the new film by Jaffa Panahi, who is the great Reni and Ota who, in July,

was all to serve a six-year prison sentence and who has been banned from making films since 2010. A ban which has spectacularly failed to stop in making films. 2011, he made this is not a movie which was smuggled out of Iran on a USB hidden inside a cake, went on to play at Cannes. Incredible. He made Close Curtain and Taxi Terran, both of which won significant awards at Berlin and three faces then won best screen play at Cannes. So his latest film, when it played at the Miami Film Festival, there was a record where he won a precious jam award.

There was a recording that had been made in prison of him saying, I wish I could make films instead of receiving awards because I have so many more stories to tell. So he is the very definition of an artist who is genuinely in love with the medium and will make films against all odds. You hear film makes it hard to make this film.

Yeah, really, really try this on for slice. So given that it's not surprising that his films have recently, or since 2010, I mean, what's referred to as the dissident era, have often been about the process and the difficulties of making films. I mean, this is not a film was about not being able to make a film very specifically, right from its title up. So we begin with a couple who are trying to get passports

to get to Europe. And they only one of them has a passport. We've, there's something odd about the scene and we then realize that what's odd about it is that it's being acted. It's being acted in Turkey, but it's being directed in Iran by Jafar Pinarhi playing Jafar Pinarhi

or at least playing a version of himself directing by remote control because he is not allowed to leave Iran directing over the internet. He could have been in Tehran, which is where he was before, where he had a very good internet connection, but he decided to go to a remote village near the border. So he's physically nearer the shoot,

but consequently, the Wi-Fi signal is terrible. So there's a lot of comedic slap sticks off about having to get a ladder and go up onto the roof and hold up a thing in order that he can direct the drama. He's then visited by his assistant director who takes him to the border. And he says, where is the border? He says, you're literally standing on it. This is kind of no man's land. It's in the middle of the night. This is a smuggler's territory. People smugglers, you know, move back and forth. And he absolutely cannot. He's like, he almost physically recoils from the fact that he could just step

over the border. And he meanwhile has become embroiled in his own domestic drama in the village to which he has arrived, where they're kind of suspicious of him because he's a metropolitan filmmaker as a reputation for being a troublemaker. And his camera has now got him into trouble. He has told that he has taken a photograph that is important in an incriminating disagreement between two men over a young woman. So, you have two stories.

One of them a fictional story about a couple who are trying to get past what appears to be tearing them apart, that's been filmed, it's like, meanwhile, in the village that Jafar Panahi is in, you have him embroiled in a really strange dispute in which it is alleged that he has a photograph that is incriminating that he says doesn't exist. So these two things are playing out in parallel. The key thing about the film is that, as with all of Panohe's films,

it's about a number of different things. I'm going to play you a scene which pretty much explains the title. Obviously because the scene is in the original language, I'm going to tell you afterwards what said. But this is a scene in which the title No Bears is set out loud. Okay. مردون اینزا باشه اخفه این مشکلات اشه اریا بایم بالا بالا یهست بلی مشکلات ما اینزا بخوافات اجن مما باشه مبیرم اینزا خیلی پتنشه اینزا که زائی نسپیل اینجلی بیپیچی سمتیت

مییه سکه سمکونی دیجه چیزین اینشه مما باشتی که یه از خیر ستی مما خیر سی بجود نداره اینه مما یاد ندنشه خیر سست I'm not going to die. That's true. I'm not going to die, Nadar. I'm not going to die. I'm not going to die.

I'm not going to die. I'm not going to die. I'm not going to die. I'm not going to die. I'm not going to die. I'm not going to die. So, what's happening there is two people walking down a darkened alley having a conversation.

And Jaffa Panohe says, what about the bears? And his companion says, there are no bears. He says, town people have problems with authorities. We have problems with superstitions. The stories about bears, they're nonsense. They're just stories made up to scare us. Our fears empower others, no bears. So in a way, that exchange kind of explains a lot of what the film is about,

that it's about the way in which power and superstition go hand in hand, the way, you know, the divide between town and country, the power of storytelling, the fact that you're told a story in order to oppress you, or maybe you're told a story in order to free you, because obviously, if I'm a night, is a storyteller. Meanwhile, his actors are starting to doubt whether he is, whether his intentions are good, whether he is an honest direct, whether he is a truthful direct or whether he is trying to manipulate reality. And meanwhile, in the village that he's in, there is this whole discussion about whether a photograph does or doesn't exist, a photograph crucially, whether the camera has captured something that may or may not

point to a truth or an inventory. So all this is going on while the film appears on the surface to be a fairly incidental story about somebody attempting to direct a movie across a board at because and this is what I think is fascinating about Jafar Panahi. He has a real, a brilliant way of, through almost slight of hand, telling stories that are wider than what's going on right in front of you and doing it in a way that almost seems accidental, almost seems in some, believe me, there's nothing accidental in his filmmaking. But he has that miraculous ability of just making a tiny little conversation or a tiny little interaction seem really profound when you start scratching the surface, although at the time it's just, well, it's just this kind of story about this stuff. I mean, it's

tragic and it's also comedic in certain places. It's very moving, it's already started to win festival awards and rightly so and I would say this once more. This is an example of a filmmaker who makes films because that's what they do. They are a storyteller this refers back to the Sebastian Lillier thing that you and I were talking about just earlier on and it's impossible not to admire his films, but I think it's also pretty hard not to really enjoy them. And I use the word enjoy because this is a film that deals with tragedy and absurdity

and all the rest of it, but it's also, it's a film to quote my great friend, Nigel. It's a film that is a film. It struck me as you were speaking, that on one metal level, it could be a great double bill with the wonder in terms of what's true and what isn't the storytelling. And on another meta level, it could be a great double bill with a bunch of amateurs. Yeah, actually weirdly enough.

Yes, I had not considered that at all, but that's a very well-chosen metaphor. Yeah, yeah. So I'd like you to see it because I think you'll find a lot to enjoy. I definitely will. There's so much that is on and in fact, it's time for what's on now. This is where you email us a voice note about your festival or special screening from wherever you are in the world. I like this segment just because the different voices. I know. You know, right? It's so many different voices. It's a really nice audio. Email yours to correspondence at kermodeandmayo.com. All right, let's hear many different voices. It's a really nice audio.

Email yours to correspondence at kermodeandmayo.com. All right, let's hear it then. What have we got? Hi, this is Column IV from Dock and Roll, the UK's music film festival. For our night edition, running until the 13th of November across 14 UK cities, we've got exclusive films on funk, soul, techno, blues, indie, electro, post-punk, synth pop, jazz, and the psych scene featuring great Q&A's with filmmakers and special guests and a lot of after-parties. Check out Dock and Roll Festival.com. Hello, Tomahawk, Simon and Jason Isaacs,

from Miriam and the Milton Film Club team. We're a new social film community in North Yorkshire and about to host our second ever screening, kindly supported CinemaFourAll and the Launchpad scheme. We'll be showing Rob Reiner's 1987 cult classic The Princess Bride on Sunday, 27th November. Find us on Instagram and Twitter at Molten Film Club to find out more. So that was that was Miriam from Molten Film Club team. actually they both sound like great things to go to. I love a rock or, you know, a music documentary. And I love an after party. If you are like Miriam or Colin there

and you wanna get some info about your events in, you just need to send your 22nd audio trailer about your event anywhere in the world to correspondence at cermonomeo.com, a couple couple of weeks up front and we'll give you a shout out. It really is as simple as that. We have a big Behemoth movie to discuss. So you said earlier on a colon movie. Could I just tell you one of the best ever Roger Ebert reviews of a movie was a review that he did

of the Brown Bunny by Vincent Gallo, in which he said on the subject of it it's a column movie. He said, I had a colonoscopy once they let me watch it on television and it was better than the Brown Bunny. Okay so Black Panther, Wakanda forever. Ryan Kugler's Black Panther was an enormous hit in 2018. It grossed over 1.3 billion worldwide. Second highest grossing film directed by Black filmmaker. No, the highest grossing film directed by Black filmmaker. Second highest grossing film of 2018.

Pardon me, first superhero film to be nominated for a best picture Oscar. Start the great Chadwick Boseman as the charler, leader of Wakanda, and of course the titular Black Panther. Plans for a sequel obviously started straight away. I mean, the film was a huge, I think a real cultural. Yeah, it was a moment, definitely. Do you remember that front cover of him? Incredible.

There were so many things that came out of it. I mean, there was just a little bit of behind the scenes footage that was almost as big as the movie itself, where they had African drums there, and they'd tie all the extras and everybody, and the main cast was all singing and dancing, and people were like, this is a moment here. It's not just a great black character

in another way as white superhero world. This is a black superhero movie for real. It was genuinely properly breaking them old. So then obviously when Chadwick Boseman died, all the plans for a sequel were thrown into disarray. The decision was immediately taken that nobody would try to step into that role because, and I'm quite rightly so, you just can't.

That role is definitive, and it's one for but it's definitive. So now we have Wakanda Forever. So this is a story that begins with the funeral of the child who has died since the events of the first film, leaving Wakanda now wondering where it can go from here. So the film begins by confronting the whole that is been left. Yeah, exactly.

And consequently, it's very moving. It's very movingly done. But it is also, you know, you were talking before about the meta thing with the Jafar Banahi film. But there is a meta level on this, which is we are genuinely mourning the loss of that character and that person and that great actor. So into the space, steps, the Tisha Wright

Shuri, who is the youngest sister of the charler, who has put all her energy into attempting to develop new technology, having failed to avert this, you know, where we are now. Also, Angela Bassett is Ramonda, who is the queen mother of Wakanda, who must come to terms with losing her son, also protecting her daughter. The peat in the on-go is a guy who didn't go to Charles Funeral, but he's still the one that you will turn to in times of trouble. Let's have a look at a clip, because I want to talk to you about the overriding tone of the film. So take a look at this. He's gone, but I'm moving forward.

The chala is dead, but that doesn't mean he's gone. When that illness took your brother from us, I had to lead a wounded nation and a broken world. But I still took time in the bush. I wandered until I found water and I sat. I wandered until I found water and I sat. Then I did this ritual that I am about to show you now. I found your brother in the breeze, pushing me gently

but far like his hand on my shoulder. So you hear from that the kind of, you know, the mournful, allergic tone of that. Now, obviously then there has to be the narrative, the story, the plot. This basically takes the form of trouble arising in the form of NUMMO, who is the leader of an underwater civilization.

He has wings on his feet, his tenacuerta, and he crosses the US who go look, the US are looking for vibranium with the aid of a device, which has been invented by a young MIT student played by Dominic Thorn who everyone blames Wakanda for what happens. So there's a conflict involving the US, you know, big nations Wakanda, and then this other emergent nation that nobody knew about, which is under the seat, by the front. Okay. The scene is set.

Films two hours, 41 minutes long, there is a lot of stuff in it. Here's remarkable things. Firstly, the cast is led by women of color, including people like Michaela Cole, who's fantastic. And what he's remarkable is that that's not the first thing you notice about the film. I mean, you're a little boy into it, before you go, oh, that's actually interesting.

So I think the world has changed in the years since Black Panther. Second thing is the design, particularly the costumes and the music are all pretty awe-inspiring. They all, you know, it's like this is done properly and if you just want to sort of revel in the majesty of, wow, that's great design. That's terrific. I happen to have a revel in the majesty of wow that's great design that's terrific I happen to you know have a thing about costume design so that's great. As a Marvel movie there are issues I mean the underwater people are they look like the blue people for they look like the Navi from Avatar there are certain water sequences which you know cast my mind back to James Cameron's The Abyss because flying suits that are kind of like you know gender reversed Iron Man.

And there's occasional hint of transformers even in there. There are many plot threads, umpteen characters. The third act becomes that usual melee of parallel editing. So parallel editing is really interesting. It goes right back to the sort of birth of cinema with Edwin Porter's, Edmila Porter's life of an American fireman in the great train robbery. Look, two separate things going on inside here. Now, most superhero movies, the third act,

there's seven different things going on and we're parallel editing between them. And I find that a little bit tiresome. Some of the CG isn't great. Doesn't so much defy gravity as ignoring it. It's a bit weightless. And honestly, outside of stingray, I have struggled to take underwater enemies

that seriously. I'm not entirely sure that I buy into it. But, for a film that has so much stuff in it and so much stuff that doesn't quite work for me, what's surprising is how much the allergic quality of it did really strike me. I came out of the film, two hours, 41 minutes I did and I was walking up with a colleague of mine, Linda Marikud's opinions I've always taken very seriously. And we were both quite quiet. And we were on the escalator out of the screening room, she's quite a long way down. We've gone a while without saying anything to each other before going, that was really quite moving, wasn't it? And you were saying, yeah, yeah, I was in, she said, I said, I shared a tear about it.

And what I think is really interesting is that for a film that's got so much smashy, crashy, runny, jumpy, sweary, speary, splashy, boom, boom stuff going on, the overall tone of it somehow does manage to feel like an allergy, like an ode, like it actually has some heart to it. Also, bear in mind, I saw it on the day of the midterms, in which the whole idea of a film which is quite a validly anti-imperialist, in which there are jokes about, of course, the US shouldn't have sole access to this kind of material, because think what would happen if they did. A film which basically has, at its heart, a message which is completely out of sync with

what the message of an awful lot of superhero movies have been before, which is that, you know, American Justice must triumph and blow. You're going back to all the discussions about Superman and all the political worries about all that. It's not preachy, but it is all in there. And I think when you, it's also implicitly pacifist, and it is also implicitly about building allegiances in a way that's more complex than you might, not you, than one might initially go. So I think beneath all the surface noise and underneath the extended running time, there are

things about it that are really impressive. And also, it's the first time I've actually thought this is a great big action adventure movie in this particular canon that actually felt like it earned the right to feel like an energy, like an odel, like it wasn't just performative. It wasn't just, you know, we're doing this because we have to actually felt, and this is not a word I use often about Marvel movies, heartfelt. So there's a lot wrong with it. There, you know, there's a, I'm just never going to buy into the underwater smurfs. Sorry. there we go. But the fact that that's not what I took out of him, I think is kind of important.

So like, you know, maybe an hour less, no underwater Smurfs. Well, you get that. No underwater Smurfs is going to take away the bulk of the plot. Right. So I just think if you can't, it's not a solvable problem.

Right. And it's not that simple. Far be it for me to, yeah, excuse me, Ryan Kugler. Let me just explain how this movie could be made better. No, that's not gonna happen. These are the things that didn't work for me. But the things that did work overrode them. And I do think that that's impressive.

Yeah, and you know, looking at it, the feeling that would have been around that place would have been undeniable. It would have, there's place would have been undeniable. There's no surprise that it's seeped into performance in the field of the movie, because everybody would have genuinely felt that way. Except when you say it's no surprise,

it was seeped in, as you know, the thing about those BM off movies is they will tread the life out of anything. And so it is a surprise. Yeah. Similarly, a comedy, as we all know, that we're everyone's having a great time yeah, making it doesn't necessarily mean we have a great time watching. Never mind. Yeah. Well, there we go. I think it's a great way. It feels like the headliner doesn't it? That's what kind of forever. So that is the end of take one. Few credits for you production management and general all round stuff was Lily Hambley.

Cameras by Teddy Riley videos on our mighty fine YouTube channel by Ryan O'Meara, Studio Engineer was Josh Gibbs. Flynn Rodham is the assistant producer. Guess researcher is Sophie Avann and Hannah Talbert is the producer. Mark, what is your film the way? It's a tough one actually. Okay, it's a double bill. Nice. Bunch of amateurs and no bears. No, okay, good.

All right, I like that. Next week Simon will be back and saying hello to Paul Mescal. Thank you for listening. Who is fantastic enough to send any? Our extra takes with a bonus review, a bunch of recommendations, and even more stuff about movies and cinema or Jason Television will be available on Monday.