Kermode & Mayo’s Take - George Mackay, Femme, Jason Isaacs, Archie & Eileen

Episode Date: December 1, 2023

It’s another bumper week for guests: Simon and Mark chat to their fave “gorgeous George” Mackay about his new psychosexual noir ‘Femme’, which sees a man who is targeted in a horrific homophobic attack seek revenge on one of his attackers, played by Mackay. They also say hello to Jason Isaacs, who is here in the studio to chew the fat and discuss his turn as Hollywood legend Cary Grant in the ITV miniseries ‘Archie’. Mark gives his thoughts on both, along with reviewing ‘Eileen’, an adaptation of Ottessa Moshfegh’s best-selling, psychological-thriller novel about a shy young woman working at a prison when a captivating, glamorous counsellor, played by Anne Hathaway, and helps her access new facets of her personality, but may be drawing her into something more dangerous - Hathaway described it as ‘Carol’ meets ‘Reservoir Dogs’. Time Codes (relevant only for the Vanguard - who are ad-free!): 06:54 Eileen review 15:55 Box Office Top Ten 27:36 Jasson Isaacs interview 51:24 Laughter Lift 54:41 George MacKay interview 01:11:49 Femme review 01:15:35 What’s On You can contact the show by emailing [e-mail] or you can find us on social media, @KermodeandMayo EXCLUSIVE NordVPN Deal ➼ https://nordvpn.com/take Try it risk-free now with a 30-day money-back guarantee! A Sony Music Entertainment production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts and follow us @sonypodcasts To advertise on this show contact: [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Here that's isl. That's McDonald's Ducy and Delicious Quarter Pounder with Cheese. Yeah, I'm hungry too. So what makes it such a hit? Spoiler. It's made with 100% Canadian beef. Yeah, that's right. Sounds delicious, doesn't it?

Just imagine how it tastes. The Quarter Pounder with Cheese. Only had McDonald's. I've got a text I was going to read you. OK, cool. This is part of the thing, obviously. Here we go. I've checked and this is OK. This is... We started. Yeah. This is part of the thing, obviously. Here we go. I've checked and this is okay.

This is started. Yeah. Okay. This child tree gave me this. Right. Hey, hey, your dad might appreciate this, meaning me. Yeah. This is from Mike Turner, QI Research and Quiz Show Question Writer. Okay. And don't interrupt. Okay. Your dad might appreciate this. At a pub quiz, the question was this. Complete the title of the first film in the series, Percy Jackson and the, at least five teams, including me put, Coulden of Penguins. It's a very old film show reference.

Your dad and Mark made up a film title and it stuck more than the actual film. What impresses me about that, thank you, Mike, is that it wasn't just him, but five other people did call Jean of penguins. It lives. It lives. The call Jean lives today. Anyway, here we are. And I'm privately exhausted. I won't actually say anything as part of the podcast, anyway, here we are. And I'm privately exhausted. I won't actually say anything as part of the podcast, obviously, because, but I'm sure we'll be fine on three-hour sleep. I'll be operating at full speed.

But if at any stage I fall asleep, you will tell me. Yeah, and then I should just remind listeners that you did once fall asleep during one of my film reviews. But it was only momentarily like I was driving that kind of slight nodding off. Since you've just done a text, can I tell you about my text, which was I did a non-stage thing for this short film

that's in contention for a short film Oscar and I think after as well, which is called The Shepherd, which is a new film by Ian Softly and it's based on a Frederick for Cythe Source. And it's a project that John Travolta was involved in way, way back, came and went. Anyway, now it's been done. It's rather lovely. It's produced by Alfonso Quarral and John Travolta was in it. And I did a long stage thing with Ian Softly and John Travolta, who I've not met before. And John Travolta has this thing that you know,

he has some, he's shaved head and a beard, which is, you know, so he's still obviously recognizably John Travolta. And anyway, after the thing, Ian softly sent me a message saying, you know, John would like to say thank you, because it has all gone very well. And I gave him my contact details, and I got a very nice message from him saying, thanks very much, it was good doing the thing. You know, and that was nice, and I wrote back to him saying thanks, it was a pleasure, you know, nice to meet you and I wish you all the best.

And then he sent me a thing which said, and I wish I had your hair. Wow, and I said, I replied, but it's amazing, because for years I was known as that bloke with John Travolta's hair. Wow. So John Travolta wishes he had my hair. You should take some. No, come on the show. No, you don't want it. You know, now you've got that number. What I was, what I could have texted him back was to say,

yes, well, Angelina Jolie once said to me, I like your hair. I should get Brad to do his hair like that. And that went well, didn't it, in the end? Yeah, I don't think that was my fault. Well, you say that but I did point out that Brad had done his hair like that before in Johnny's Swade, but I don't think she'd seen it anyway What are you reviewing as well as all this kind of this is?

Top class, this is a packed week. So yeah, Eileen, which is new for my William oldroid Then we have Archie with our first special guest. I forget who he is. What's his name again? Derek Sniddlegross. Derek Sniddlegross. Derek Sniddlegross. That'll be the star of Archie on ITVX. That'll be Jason he's going to be coming in. And then we have FIM with our second special guest. Whose George Mackay. In our Extra Takes podcast and other 90 minutes of this kind of rubbish, Who's George McCoy? In our Extra Takes podcast, another 90 minutes of this kind of rubbish, we can watch this, we cannot list bonus reviews. What are you doing as an extra special super bonus? We have the new Aki Karazaki film, which is called Fallen Leaves, which is very interesting.

I'm just scrolling down through my thing, just so I can remind myself what we have. Oh, my stro is in limited cinema, so we'll do review of that, but then we'll revisit it when it comes to Netflix. And we also have this something in the bottom, which we'll do a review of that, but then we'll revisit it when it comes to Netflix. And we also have this something in the bottom, which is a new comedy horror Christmas movie. It sounds niche. One frame back is inspired by Archie's top carry grant films, Jason Isaacs will be hanging around for that as well. You can access this via Apple Podcast. I had to extra-takes.com for non-fruit related devices before we continue John Bell says, on a point of order, I would like to draw your attention to a quality control issue in the delivery of Vanguard East to salutations.

I am a long-term listener, content to root for around in my pockets to come up with the monthly subs to support Mark's collection of Harrington's and Simon's fruity yet full-bodied reds. I actually more likely to be white, to be honest. And the odd shilling going out trust to the World Beating production team, you remain genuine value. As an investor, Bing Zingard Easter,

feels a little bit special. Hiver to reinforced on a weekly basis by a hearty, we salute you early in each episode. If the take can be said to already have had good old days, the salutation then was upbeat, even joyous. Often a duet. The words clear and inspiring, I was seen and belonged. In recent times, however, things have changed for the worse. It has begun to feel perfunctory. The salute is limp, a bored royals wave to sparse crowds

on the way to a bypass opening. The slot is rushed. Mark deploys the same voice he uses for those leaving comments below the line, a sort of hurt nasal snuffling. Are we to be grouped with them, or is this some kind of rebellion against the necessities of having gone to the capitalist side? Should I in fact rejoice in a postmodern undermining from within of pleasantries directed at those who support you? All I know is that I now approach each new episode with anti-supportment. That is a great word. Hoping to once again be uplifted and inspired but fearing once again to feel a little crushed.

Up with all being in it together, down with being taken for granted, yours ever, John Bell. That is completely legitimate. If you are already a Vanguardista, as ever, we salute you with cuddles and embraces and money. And money? Well, I'm not sure about the money. Are we sending money back? Is that how it's working? No, I don't think so. John, thank you.

It's a good point, well-made, and we have listened, yes, and you are seen. And for at least the next couple of weeks. A couple of weeks. This year, we will try and always remember your words, John. Thank you. CorrespondersCovidMoe.com. Right. Tell us a film that I might want to go and see. I mean, and then you make the joke. Come on. Come on, I mean, this is very good.

This is the new film from a theater director to film maker William Oldroyd, who made his featured debut with Lady Macbeth, which featured rising star Florence Pugh. Whatever happened. I don't know. You know, have you heard of Marie Sneer to her? Have we?

So this is a twisty neo-noir thriller. It's adapted from the novel by Tess Moshveig, who co-wrote the script with her partner, Luke Goebel, 1960s England. Thomas in McKenzie, who you'll remember, I raved about and leave no trace. She was recently in last night in Sohut. She's Eileen Dunlop. She's a young woman who lives with her borrished drunken father, her mother has passed. She works at the local prison. She is frustrated by her life, which appears to

have no prospects. She has sexual fantasies that are unrealized and fleeting. Into her drab life comes the new prison cancer Rebecca played by Anne Hathaway. She's glamorous. She smokes, she drinks, she dresses to impress, she runs her life her way. In a bar when a guy gives her some hassle, she lamps him. She is a force to be reckoned with. She makes a mark in the prison where there is a young man who

has been incarcerated for killing his father. She takes an active interest in the case. She arranges for his mother to come and visit him. She sees him as more than just a sort of a young murderer. And she takes Eileen under her wing. She takes it to the bar. She buys her drinks. She gets to the dance and smoke and she invites her over to her house for pre-Christmas drinks as a clip. To Jesus Christ. Happy birthday. Do you love yellow? No. Oh, sure.

No, I can't have roommates. I like my own space. I still like to have fun. And I can make a lot of noise. And I can make a mess, as you can see. But I'm like, music is loud as I want to. I can scream as loud as I want to, I can scream as loud as I want to. Ha!

Ha! Ha! Ha! And that moment is kind of indicative of the film that when she's a screaming bit. When she does that, you know, it's funny, funny, then she does that scream as I mean, it's funny, but it's also, oh, I hadn't actually expected to do that. So up until that point, the film seems to have a,

you know, a kind of carol flavor to it, you know, carol, the Todd Haynes movie. But if you know anything about the film, you'll know that Anne Hathaway said it's carol meets reservoir dogs. And I think you don't need to know any more than that. I think, I think William Alder is a really fine director. I think he's got real theatrical sense of space. He knows how to make people in rooms interesting. And this is shot by Arivagan who shot Lady Macbeth, a power of the dog in fabric, makes the whole thing look beautifully mysterious, very down to earth, very realistic, but it's also got a kind of sense of magic to it. There's a kind of dreaminess, something strange going on.

It's a really good script. It's very, I mean, you know, because you're a writer. You know, if you, good writing is just a wonderful thing, and there's that whole thing about, you know, without script to film is nothing. And obviously there's a lot more than just the script, but a really good script will see you a very long way, and it is a really, really good script.

In fact, Marshfag has said that the script is so much better than my book, particularly in relation to Hathaway's character, who in the film it kind of becomes a very classic sort of femme for toll straight out of a 40s noir. And you can see her relishing the role, even in that clip that you saw, you could see Anne Hathaway thinking, this is something to sink my teeth into But the great thing about it is is that the film it kind of it It lays the groundwork and then pulls the rug out from under your feet Just when you think that you've got the measure of characters and one of the things it's about is it's about

Prejudging things it's about seeing something. Oh, I know who that person is, I know, you know. And then realizing that actually, you don't really know who that person is. And then against Dan Hathaway, who we all know is a great actor and is a great career behind her. You have Tom Simmercansi, who I just think,

I think she is one of the most engaging versatile acts of her generation. During the course of the movie, her entire character shifts, changes, develops. We watch her growing before our eyes and it's always miraculous when a job does, when a film does a job of letting you see a character properly develop. And I think she absolutely is the person for the role and she does it brilliantly. I thought it was sort of deliciously twisty and entertaining. Great score by Richard Ribe parry, which is very kind of experimental.

I really, really enjoyed it. And the thing that I would say is beyond that thing and half the way said, don't find out anything else about it. Take my word for it. It's really good. Go and let the film reveal its secrets in its own time. Carol meets Reservoir Dogs. That's what she said, yeah. Okay. And that's Eileen. Eileen. Eileen, it's sort of like it's a totally neutral

title. You get no sense of anything. Oh, the poster is a little, takes you down a journey. Yeah, it's got a bit of a sort of, you know, I can say, like a come twisty nor thing going on. And of course, you know, well, I mean, a film like Carol. Carol doesn't do. And you were once saying that films which have names which don't mean anything really bothered you. Yeah. Michael Clayton. Michael. What? Who? But, you know, maybe this will be the one that proves me wrong. Anyway, so, Eileen, James Bell, interestingly, our first email was from John Bell, and then the second email is from James Bell. I mean, it's a coincidence, maybe they're the same family or something.

Anyway, my dear gentlemen, as per your previous discussions and the phenomenon of ours, we're watching a movie on an aeroplane, makes one more emotionally vulnerable. I want to share my recent experience. I was indoor cycling for the November men's charity and watching old men on a mission movies on my gym television Well, whilst watching certain sections of the wild geese. I suddenly became significantly teary-eyed Surprisingly, this continued into other films including Incredibly where Eagles dare Therefore, I propose a new form of the syndrome named biking acquired lacrimosti syndrome or balls since it kind of works well done well done since I have 300 kilometers of biking to complete by the end of the month I expect to

have sore balls for some time it's a long way to go to get to that line but anyway James that's a laugh to lift Joe, isn't it? Still to come. Still to come reviews of Archie with our special guest, Jason and Femme with our special guest. George. And now, a part three of our new feature called Wise Wise Words, in which Mark and I are alternating

weeks, have to guess the artist and terrible song during the break. Last week, you were very successful. Here are your words. Uh-huh. Hear that crazy rhythm, driving me insane, strike your partner on the bounce. Ooh, I felt no pain.

I have no idea. Okay, we'll be back shortly. Music Hi, esteemed podcast listeners, Simon Mayo. I'm Mark Kermot here. I'm excited to let you know that the new season of the Crown and the Crown, the official podcast, returns on 16th of November to accompany the sixth and final season of the Netflix Epic Royal Drama series.

Very exciting, especially because SuperSub and Friend of the Show, Edith Bowman hosts this one. Indeed, Edith will take you behind the scenes, dive into conversation with the talented cast and crew from writer and creator Peter Morgan to the crowns Queen Elizabeth Imelda Staunton. Other guests on the new series include the Crowns research team, the directors, executive producers Suzanne Mackie and specialists such as Voice Coach William Connaker and props master Owen Harrison. Cast members including Jonathan Price, Selene Doar, Khalid Abdullah, Dominic West and Elizabeth

DeBickey. You can also catch up with the story so far by searching The Crown, the official podcast, wherever you get your podcast. Subscribe now and get the new series of The Crown, the official podcast first on November 16th. Available wherever you get your podcasts. Happy Nord Christmas. Protect yourself whilst Christmas shopping online and access all the Christmas films from around the globe. Plus, when you shop online you'll have to give websites your card details and other sensitive data like your personal addresses. Those websites should already have their own encryption built into their payment systems, but to be on the safe side you can use a VPN to ensure that all data coming to and from your device is encrypted.

Even if you're using an unsafe Wi-Fi, you'll still be able to shop securely with a VPN. And you can access Christmas films only available overseas by using streaming services not available in the UK. To take our huge discount of your NordVPN plan, go to nordvpn.com-take. Our link will also give you four extra months for free on the two-year plan. There's no risk with Nord's 30-day money back guarantee. The link is in the podcast episode description box.

And the answer to this week's wise, wise words. Hang on, so it must be a sort of don't see rhythmically. Hear that crazy rhythm, driver me insane, strike your partner on the bones. Oh, I felt no pain. The rest of it goes, yin tong yin tong yin tong yin tong yin tong yin tong yin tong yin li poe. Yin tong yin tong yin tong yin li poe. Of course it is, of course it is.

And that actually has a shame that I didn't get that. And those lyrics are literally at the end, because there are no other lyrics in the entire thing. And the entire thing. Anyway, I'm so glad. I'm being in Tonges on the street. Okay, so next week we'll do, I'm walking backwards for Christmas. Okay, I'll get that one right then.

Simon and Mark says, Anna, with regard to the correspondence from a while back about Jerry Lewis being big in France and Norman Wisdom being big in Albania. Yes. I'd like to inform you that lots of hugged and bear, the chief toy of the nursery in Toy Story 3, is huge in Vietnam. I'm currently traveling around this excellent country with my wife and the big friendly pink bear is on t-shirts, tote bags, toys, stickers, taxes

and everything else imaginable. Given his plot in the movie, however, it does feel a little strange to have his countenance smiling at. It's quite sinister in the film, so many directs are hugging anyway. Yeah, I mean, and it's hardly contemporary, you would think. I hope it's all right. And I thank you, correspondence at curbinemer.com.

Box office top 10 this week at 15, the eternal daughter, which I really like. I think Joanna Hogg has made many ghost stories over the course of her career, but this is the first one that declares itself to be a ghost story. Till the Swinton, you know, playing two central characters and amazingly, you know, improvising the dialogue with herself. And I think it's beautifully shot and very atmospheric. And I liked it a lot. Susanna Wiley, wonderful atmosphere. Very MR James, very 70s BBC in a good way.

Yes, it is. In the sound design setting and literary references, Tilda Swinton is magnetic and very precise, as always. Green Giant from our YouTube channel. There is no doubting Tilda Swinton's gift for her craft, playing two characters so convincingly. But some of the ad lib dialogue felt unauthentic, stilted and pointless. Really? There were some interesting themes, but the haunted hotel seemed like a character of itself, and large parts of the film were too slow and rather dull. The dog was excellent,

though, and the hotel receptionist, Domingue, did make me chuckle. So that came out in the States last year, but it's 50 here. Number 10, number 18 in the States. Anatomy of a fall. One of my favorite films of the year, it is just absolute edge of your seat ride, despite the fact that it is basically people talking in rooms, fantastic forms by Sandra Huller. Yeah, it's a treat, go see it, it's fantastic. New at number nine, love actually 20th anniversary. How old does that make you feel very old? Well, 20, at least.

No, but I mean, it's astonishing that love actually is 20 years old. Yes, and the revisionists will not be happy that it's back in the top 10. No, the revisionists can go revise. Number eight here, number 17 in the States is Tiger 3, which wasn't press screened. This is the Hindi language action thriller, doing very well, but as I said, wasn't press screened, so I haven't seen it yet. If anyone has, do we have any emails? No. Number seven here, five in the States, Thanksgiving. Eli Roth takes a spoof trailer and makes it into a less interesting feature film and reminds us all that actually the Grindhouse project was overrated the first time

round. UK number six, number four in the state's trolls band together. I mean, you know, it's still there, it's still doing what it says on the tin. It's, you know, it's trolls band together. It's perfectly fine. Number five is the Marvels, which I mean, it was interesting last week that somebody wrote a letter saying that they had enjoyed it much more than either. And certainly it seems that if you've seen the film adjacent television programs, you get more out of it. I wanted to like it and I agree with Stephen King's point that there was a certain amount of just kind of, you know, our girls thing going on in the in the reaction to it, but I just it is it is a car crash of a film. Number four, number nine

in the States is Saltburn, which I think I like more than you do. I think Barry, as much as I preferred, promising young women. Yes, I mean, I think they're both, they're both interesting films. I just felt to me like Saltburn was more kind of coherent and I like kind of gothic erotic through the thing about it. And I think Barry Cuban is terrific. If you're thirsty in the bath, taking a glass of water, really suck with you, taking a glass of water, Barry. Can I be honest with you? I don't think that scene is about being thirsty. I think it's clearly about that.

I don't think that he suddenly realizes what's going on. Clearly realizing he's thirsty. He looks around, he hasn't got a glass of wine or a bottle of beer or a glass of water. So he decides to just have the plug hold. Yeah. Wish is at number three, here, number three in the states. Andy Stevens says, bland with a capital blower. Brilliant. Couldn't agree more, not terrible, but instantly

forgettable and far too similar to Ray Frozen and Encanto. And everything else, I mean, the point is, it is almost like an advert for Disney's centenary posing as a feature film. It's not bad because of course it's not bad, it's sort of a machine tool to be fine, but I think bland with a blah is absolutely right. Number two here, number one in the States is Hunger Games, the Ballad of Songbirds and Snake. Yeah, I don't like Songbirds and snakes, but I know that other people think that it has what it takes to love it. Yes. That didn't quite work today. In the early 70s. Yeah. Yeah. I know. I'll listen to this. We'll know that. Number one here. Number two in

the States is Napoleon. Napoleon. I was so, uh, some emails here. Mark says, I was looking forward to Napoleon when we visited our local Ardeco Luxe Theatre in downtown Los Gatos, California. Okay. Wacken Phoenix repriezoned his role as Commodus in the guise of Bonaparte, stunning Vanessa Kirby as Josephine, with the mighty Ridley at the helm. What I got was carry on Napoleon. The battle scenes were, I think that's a fact. the battle scenes were of course terrific. Set pieces Ridley loves a forest, but he does. The derisary grasp of history in the staccato scenes were more akin to Jasmine's contract or carry on up the Kaiba than Gladiator. Take the sentence again. The staccato scenes were more akin to Jasmine's contract or carry on up the Kaiba

than Gladiator. Take the central relationship. Now, sooner had they got married, then she was having it away. Why? Was she damaged by her jail time? By the way, how did her lover survive? We never found out. In a recent Guardian review, the French journalist explored Napoleon being successful because he lied and exaggerated his achievements.

This comparison to modern world leaders we know would have been interesting if explored. They say that Ridley in his do-tage is an impatient man on set, not fond of retakes. He must be equally impatient in the edit because this was a frenetic romp through often made up history. I'd say that Ridley at 85 is living proof that Biden should not go for a second term.

Wow. This is because a Sony film executive was quoted as saying that Ridley at 86 now, I think he is, yes he is, is the best argument for a second term, Biden presidency. Dan Knight, I've just finished absorbing the great banquet of wine and cheese that was Napoleon. While I greatly enjoyed it, the recent headlines and reactions to the film

not being historically accurate have somewhat irked me. While I understand the importance of showing events accurately, I do find it annoying how film and television appear to be the few art forms that aren't allowed to take dramatic license for the purposes of entertainment, which is what all these things are. No one bats an eye at the inaccuracies in Shakespeare's Roman plays, or to go even further, Boni M didn't write a 10-hour song detailing the entire life of Rasputin. Never mind, I would add. Bell fast. These things are just entertainment. There are countless books and documentaries available for those who want the absolute truth. Had to get that minor round-out now, Big

Fan of the Show, Dan Knight. Dr. Bob says, I'm a lifelong adherent to the codel conduct, but something happened in Ridley Scott's Napoleon that made me audibly gasp and involuntary, involuntarily, utter the words, you've got to be kidding me here. I'm a historian and in an effort to broker peace between my people and Mr. Scott, I've been talking a good game in the historian's group chat about how we all need to lighten up and give him a chance. But 39 minutes into the film, and I knew exactly where this was going when I got to this paper.

Is this the yelling from the ramparts? No, no, no. We find Boney sitting in a carriage clutching a copy of a newspaper purporting to be the times of London. This is one of the worst historic newspaper props I have ever seen. And I say that as something of a connoisseur. Back in December 2017, you read out one of my emails complaining about the equally awful newspaper props in the Manu Inventy Christmas. I described this as, quotes, the smallest hill I'm willing to die on, which ended up inspiring a long-running feature in which fellow listeners sent in their own cinematic

therapy. That's right. Exactly. So, what's So Dr. Bolwatt started it. Wow. Thank you. So what's wrong with Napoleon's newspaper? Firstly, it's got massive headlines on the front cover that read something like something from a Murdoch paper, bonaparts tear stained letters to his cheating bride, cuckolded general's heart rate, laid bare and intercepted letters.

But it's worse than you think. Back in 1799, the front pages of British newspapers like this were entirely made up of small, densely packed adverts. And the headline, as we know, it wouldn't be common for more than a century. In fact, the time still carried nothing but ads on its front page deep into the swinging sixties. Is that right? When I mentioned this fact in my last email, Mark made a mild noise of surprise. No, I mean, again it again. So we've learned nothing. The front page of Napoleon's paper also features a satirical cartoon,

common in other mediums at this time, but not British newspapers, and a weirdly modern typeface. But that's all I could catch in a few seconds it appeared on screen. This all might seem rather petty, but it's like filming a story set in the 1920s and having a character casually pull out an iPhone, media history matters. Anyway, I guess I'm still out here dying on that hill. If you meet Ridley Scott, please don't tell him where to find me. He sounds cross. All the best, Dr. Bob. He does sound cross. You're quite right. He certainly sounds cross to historians. This is what Ridley sounds like. I know. But Ridley's, as we mentioned,

Ridley's argument, we're you there, in which case, shut up. Shut up. Is such a useless, such a useless, such a useless, such a useless argument. But I remember when the newspaper appeared,

you went, I don't think, everybody knows about headlines and bone apart tear stain letters, I don't, that is very murder. But also the fact that he had written to us before telling us that that thing and I was surprised the first time and then I completely forgot it and then I was surprised the second time because I do have a butterfly brain with that is a brilliant that is a brilliant email. Can I just refer back to the email beforehand, which took issue, which said it was like

the draftsman's contract or carry on up the the Kaiba, which is like saying it's like a block of cheese or an asteroid. I don't, sorry, what staccato scenes is the point? Mark is making in his email. Yes, but well, for a start, Draftsman's contract doesn't have that. And I just, oh, so firstly, I don't get that. Secondly, I think that that your well I mean look

everybody is perfectly entitled to react to film as they wish but I disagree with with a lot what you said but thank you for the thank you for the email. Child one went to your local cinema because she lives not far from you to see Nappalion. And she thought the film was very interesting, but unfortunately the experience was largely spoiled by the gentleman sitting next to her, who not only ate noisily through the whole thing, but removed his shoes. Well, anyone would know that that's at least two

bits of the code of conduct. Broke. I said, I said, why didn't you move? She said it was a full cinema. And which actually is a good thing? Yeah, she said Broke. I said, why didn't you move? She said it was a full cinema. And which actually is a good thing. Yeah, it said it was full. Yeah, that cinema that you used to refer to as the Gangsters Paradise.

The Paradise was absolutely packed to the gills with people watching Napoleon and taking their shoes off. Coming next on this illustrious podcast, Derek Zingelberg, yes, who plays Carrie Grant, but he might sound a little bit like Jason Isaacs after this. This episode is brought to you by Mooby, a curated streaming service dedicated to elevating great cinema from around the globe. From my connect directors to emerging otters, there's always something new to discover, for example.

Well, for example, the new Aki Karri's Mackey film Fall and Leaves, which won the jury prize it can, that's in cinemas at the moment. And if you see that and think I want to know more about Aki Karri's Mackey, you can go to Mooby the streaming service and there is a retrospective of his films called How to Be a Human. They are also going to be theatrically releasing In January Priscilla, which. So for a couple of film, which I am really looking forward to since I have an Elvis obsession, you could try Mooby free for 30 days at Mooby.com slash Kermit and Mayo. That's M U B I dot com slash Kermit and Mayo for a whole month of great cinema for free. With banking packages from Scotia Bank, you can put money back in your pocket. That's how Marcus was able to invest in everything he needed to launch his podcast.

About his pets. Welcome back to PetGasd. Visit ScotiaBank.com slash welcome offer. Scotia Bank conditions apply. What you do, Life's Think. And welcome back. Stop talking. We've got an important clip of a TV show to play. Here's a clip from a TV show. Go ahead. I was in Rome, and I was finishing a picture, and I thought that all of this had gone away,

and then I was really surprised when I got the call. Well, it's been quite a struggle getting to meet you, but I'm just saying it's worth it. You're even more attractive than a person. So are you. Ah. Oh, gosh. So breath of fresh air, having you here.

I saw you in an episode of Malibu, Rodden, and I thought you just seemed untamable. I have other credits. I've done half-gummed little travels, and great theater, high-waresgoal. Tell me something about yourself. What do you want to know? Something about you, not your career. And that's a clip from Archie, which stars Jason Isaacs as Kerry Grant, their meeting Diane Kennan. That's like the first time. It's an interesting thing playing a clip, which is all about awkward silences,

on a show that is audio, because that seems all about things they're not saying, but yes, yes. What were they saying? Well, they weren't saying, what am I doing here? She's going, you're older than my dad. Why do I fancy you?

He's thinking, get clothes off a whole bunch of stuff going on. You think I don't care about your credits? Yeah, yeah. Just asked you here, because I thought you looked for it. Because I fancy you on the telly. Yeah, yeah. So Archie is this new four-part series, which is on ITVX. And it's also going to be on Britbox. Is that on Britbox? Anywhere outside England.

Because they don't get ITVX. And then if you wait, who knows? Yes, it'll be on ITV, but I'd say watching it. It's a huge billboard at Waterloo Station. I came off the train. I turned around to look at the time of the train going back and there was your face, the size of a house. That's the last time I ever happened. I wish you'd taken a photo. There we go. So do I.

We'll get you a cab to take you to Waterloo Station and meet all your publicists. You should definitely sort that out. So this is the story of Karrugan, who's originally from the UK and he's from Bristol. Yeah, from Bristol. Actually, from Bristol, actually. So just before you tell his story, how did this present itself to you? In the reverse of normal events, I was offered a part and tried to turn it down.

Normally you try and get a job. They asked me, you know, a country with my agent, like all jobs do, and I went to a joking who will be moronic enough to try and play carry Grant, given that he was the sexiest man in the world and everybody wanted a man and women fancied him for about 30 years. And then I read the script and I thought, oh, it's not about Carregor. It's Jeff Pope's script. Yeah, Jeff Pope, the brilliant writer who's taken real life events and turned them into drama, so successfully in a wardlaid and for years. And I read it and I thought it's about Archie Leach and this is a really badly messed up man, who was the very polar opposite of all the things we remember about Kerry Grant,

and that's playable as an actor. So I still was nervous. I went to meet Jeff and sat with him for hours and hours at the end of which he went, I hope you take the part, which normally I leave. And I go, well, whatever happens, good luck with it. I think you give me the part. And then when I went and thought about it

and thought about how nice Jeff was, and how collaborative he was, and how yes knives will be out for me, but hopefully when people watch it, they'll realize he wasn't even carry-grunt. And so I took the job. And what do you mean by that? Well, he was an incredibly damaged person,

and as a child he was abused, and neglected, and abandoned completely, and actually starving, literally hungry all the time. And those scars from childhood never left him and he became very good at making people like him, love him, actually want him sexually as well. And when he finally conquered the entire world and hundreds of millions of people, lusted after him, it just made those wounds even bigger. He felt even more unlovable, and he destroyed all of his personal relationships. He was full of rage and extremity and every part of his behavior.

And that he could be that charming person on screen, but it was an act. And what really drew me to it, apart from the fact that it's great to show the whole world that all of these people who we admire that come through our phones, don't have lives as shiny and perfect as we think. What really drew me personally to it

is that he started to find any way to heal when he realized it wasn't getting love, it was giving love and he had a child and he started to love this child and be a parent and that was a salvation. He spends the first two or three episodes saying he doesn't want a child. Yeah, he didn't want to be a father

because he was terrified. He didn't know what kind of father it'd be. All he knew was violent alcoholism and abuse and abandonment and narcissism. You know, that had he been a baker or a green grocery, still would have had all these problems, but they're massively exaggerated, which is why it's worth making drama about, I suppose, when everything you do is adored by the entire world. it just makes, it made him feel even more fake.

So the framing device is that he's on stage telling his life story to an audience, and he says very specifically that Carrie Grant is a character that he created and a character that he's playing. So that sense of performance runs all the way through it, that he is Archie Leach playing Carrie Grant. sense of performance runs all the way through it, that he is Archie Leach playing carry ground. So how is that for Jason Isaacs playing Archie Leach playing carry ground, the layers of performance within performance? Well, I recognize it. I don't know how authentic you feel to yourself, but maybe that's what

Dreamy's being an actor. I recognize what code switching is. He became whoever he thought he needed to be in any company to get what he needed, which initially was just literally a roof and food, and then something else that made it try to fill the hole in it. So that was it. How was it? It was instantly recognizable to be that he could switch on whatever he thought the opposite person needed. There's an interesting thing because I know there's a story about you finding the tape

of his voice, but obviously Carrie Grant's voice is an invented voice, which we'll talk about at the moment, but you yourself said that when you were a kid, when you came from Liverpool to North London, which is when we met at school, you changed your voice to become a different person because you didn't want to not fit in. I didn't want to stick out. And that's absolutely right. That's one I talk about code switching. I had one accent that I arrived in London with and another one was...

What was direct? Then like before you came to London? It was probably, it was like a posh Liverpool. That's kind of what it was like, but my relatives saw it like that. So I arrived thinking, well, I've gone and actually listened to me, I've had an Elecution Essence and everybody just called me fun to me. And I went to whatever that our North London, you know, El Street accent was, but then I went skateboarding under the South Bank. That's right. And I was one of the only white kids and I went to whatever our North London, you know, L Street accent was, but then I went skateboarding under the South Bank. That's right. And I was one of the only white kids,

and I had a very different accent there. I'm sure I probably sounded like Alie G, I God knows, I don't remember. And then I went to university, and everyone was incredibly posh. I'd never heard voices like that before. And within days, I sounded like them. In fact, I recently went to a memorial

for a friend who died from university, and it was all the same people that hadn't seen for 45 years or whatever. And within a couple of minutes, I go, no, let's go to the pub, let's go to the meal. But why didn't we meet after? I was like, I could hear this voice. Can we ultimately thinking you still have such a slim grasp

of your impersonality? But I think everyone does that a bit. I live for three years in Solly hell. And this is when I'm like 13, 14, 15. And I had a Birmingham accent by the time I lived because I wanted to be the... Subconsciously, you just want to be the same as everybody else. Yeah, absolutely right.

Well, he wanted to be educated because he was expelled and the school and the music kid. He wanted to be respected, which he wasn't so he married. At first, when he was not successful at it, he married Virginia Cheryl, who'd been in city life, been a chaplain film. Then he married the richest woman in the world, Barbara Hutt, the gay man, down trade to high society.

Then he married Betty Drake, who was incredibly well-read and introduced him to LSD therapy and a million therapies, but also Eastern philosophy in books. Then when she left him in Sophia Loren dumped him and he was heartbroken, he pursued young beauty, young, dying canna, which our story is centered around, because that's who we had a child with, and thinking maybe it recaptured his youth, because he was just at the tail end of what to be the most successful film career for. He couldn't really have the young woman on screen anymore, he was struggling with who to be. He created this screen personality, which was this swarve,

debonair lady killer, but in real life, the opposite. He pursued, I can kind of like he pursued lots of people. And just tell us that there is one tape recording of him speaking that you found because somebody done an interview that he thought wasn't recorded. Absolutely right, yeah. So he didn't give interviews. He can't, I struggled to find any,

you know, there's no chat shows or anything, because he didn't want to reveal who he was. He just didn find any, in other, no chat shows or anything, because he didn't want to reveal who he was. He just didn't want, he was frightened at his own personality would overshadow what people thought about him. And I found a tape, I found a man who was a boy when he recorded him. He wrote, thinking he maybe got some written on his back, he was a student and he was doing a film festival. And instead they said, call this number and sat him on, he was going to speak to he was doing a film festival. And instead, they'd call this number and say, good morning Mr. Grant will speak to you. So he went to the University of Radio Station

and he and Sean, I've carried on, came on the phone. And the first thing he says is, you're not recording with a sawyer, because well, I was good, don't. Which is quite firmly. He's sigiled over to his mate, don't record. And of course, when the interview was over, his mate went, I mean, I did. I did.

And I tracked him out, and he very generously, after much persuasion, said, because he hadn't played to anyone out of a sense of responsibility, honour. And he played with me, generously after much persuasion, said, because he hadn't played to anyone out of a sense of responsibility, honour. And he played it to me, and I heard the person, the heard Archie Leach, that's one of who I've heard. And what's the difference between the carry-grant voice of the movies and Archie Leach on that tape?

It's a little bit of accent, he's more English, but far more than that, it's that even at the age of 82, the last year of his life, he did it. You can hear something plaintive, something misunderstood, frustration, irritation. You can hear all the things, you know, on the movies when I broke his accent down. And it, there's no, it makes sense. He was such great fodder for mimics because he delivered almost every line exactly the same pattern, which was the same musical intonation pattern, which is full of certainty, masculinity

and confidence. And in his own life, he, like any of us, but maybe much more than any of us, you could see all the frailty or any frustration and not even around a human being, a human being with fault lines that straight back to his childhood. Mark mentioned that there are so many different lines of his life which are absolutely fascinating.

And Mark mentioned the fact that it starts with him on this tour when he's in the 80s and he's taking questions from the audience. And you just told us about that. The story of a stroke when he was in a drug, but just he did that decades after giving a back thing. He set him for a friend once and then found it quite liked it. But he had a stroke. And so I thought what Paul Under Williams,'s director did rather brilliantly was take that as a cue to maybe this interview,

this evening you're watching happened like this or maybe we're watching the fever dream of a man in the last moments of his life when he's having a stroke. So, characters from his past appear in the audience and walk across the stage. Are you subverted to question? Because we... I'm sorry. So now I have to... I was talking about this with Mark earlier. the question because we are so sorry. So now I have to because I'm talking about this with Mark earlier. And this is very early on we see and you have a mild stroke on stage. Was that easy to do or was because we see one half of your face go people know what the symptoms are. We know exactly what's happening. We do but is that easy to do? I don't have to work on that. I mean the thing is about this part it's such a fabulous thing to get to play because I don't work on that. I mean, the thing is about this part, it's such a fabulous

thing to get to play because I play dress up for living and he's so far from me, doesn't look like me, they did an extraordinary job of the makeup, I don't look like Harry Grant, but I don't look like me and I don't walk like me and I don't talk like me. And so things like that are actually enjoyable to an actor. They're easier to do than to be dynamic and get attention or whatever, playing something normal. But physically making one set of your face draw. Draw. Transformation is easy. Emotional authenticity, to be, to be, feel like you're watching something

that's happening in the moment and it's truthful. That's difficult. But all the disguise stuff, you know, Gary Almond's church or whatever, those things are really good and fun and easy to do. And you get praise, not that Gary Almond's not a genius actor, but you get praised for the makeup departments working. And that was, yeah, so you could drop one side of your face. No, I don't, I don't, I don't. The question I was going to ask you is, what had happened to, was it just old age

that made him then want to do on stage, wanted to do that student interview, which obviously he didn't have to do? Yeah. What was it that was happening to him that made him think, actually, yes, I am going to talk. I think, well, first of all, he stepped away from acting. Jeff Poper wrote it, thought, and his pitch to me originally,

but then he stepped away from acting because he wanted to be a dad. I don't think that's true. I think he stepped away from acting, because he really didn't know who to be anymore. It wasn't going to be the number one in the world anymore. It's like Roger Federer, you know, he was going to get to quarter finals, but he couldn't be at 60 odd opposite 25 for a in the world anymore. It's like Roger Federer, he was going to get to court of finals, but he couldn't be

at 60 odd opposite 25 for a woman on screen anymore. So it's convenient that his daughter came. And it's done a couple of films in which he wasn't the object of lust anymore. Curated young people's relationships. I don't think he liked doing that at all. So he didn't work as an actor for 20 years. He was a great businessman though. I'm read the minutes of the business meeting.

So he was a really smart man. He made a fortune as an actor because he had, he was a great businessman though. I've read the minutes of the business meeting, so he was a really smart man. He made a fortune as an actor because he had these contracts with the studios. He broke the studio system and they hated him for it. He sued them all the time for money they kept back from him. So when he was a great businessman, and then a mate called and said,

I'm meant to do a talk with some students tonight, UCLA, I'm sick, can you step in, stepped in? I think he quite liked it. They did mis-getting cheap laughs. And he was a bit thrilled that they remembered who he was. He didn't think acting was important. He thought he was kids in one watch films, and he really thought they were just insignificant,

but he quite liked the ego boost of doing it, so he started to do a few more of them, and I think that's what we watch. He just enjoyed the fact that some people remembered the stuff from his youth. You notice that people will have gone, hang on, Jason said he read the minutes of a business meeting. I know. I read all the biographies. Well, because we had this great resource in that Jennifer Grant, his daughter,

was incredibly generous with her time and making herself vulnerable. And Diane Cannon, whose book, a lot of this, is based on, braved a lot. I mean, he was the biggest icon in the world and she said he was an abusive, controlling, difficult man who drove me into institution and control the doctors.

I mean, she went to an institution and hit force the doctors to say, listen, you're mentally unwell because you're not doing everything your husband says. If you go back and just do everything carry on and tells you your life will be okay. So, she stuck her head up by the parapet to write that book at

all. She held stuff back in the book. She was incredibly kindly been me about what life was like with Caragrande and it was monstrous for her. She was worried that it would upset her daughter who she worships her dad. So anyway, I had those two people and I thought I need other perspectives. So I read all the biographies and I read other people's biographies in which they mentioned Caragrande and I read an unpublished PDF of someone who said this they shouldn't say in public whatever so someone else who knew him and had made all kinds of claims about him and you gradually put a picture together what did he say in the PDF yeah I'll tell you when we go off there anyway

the point you watch Captain Scarlett for the accident and you do all that and then you get on set and you throw away because I was opposite Laura Ekman who's a brilliant actress and playing Diane Cannon. And it looks uncannily like Diane Cannon. She does. I wish she didn't because she doesn't get the credit for how good an actress she is because of that. She's really magnificent actress but so nimble.

So Jeff Popin invited me in originally to be an EP by which he meant a lot of the stuff you don't like particularly or stuff you want to change. Be an EP. EP is an executive producer. Exactly. And he gave me license. You're not on stage now, okay? I'm so sorry. He gave me license to do stuff around

character and sexuality, which wasn't in the original script and some other stuff. So I would improvise sometimes, and Laura is just the best dance partner, because having done all the work, you don't want to watch, you don't want to do documentary, you don't want to watch historical piece, you just have to feel fresh in front of you, hopefully, those for the audience, that's really happening,

that's our relationship, and she's quite something. So I did me, hopefully, those for the audience, that's really happening. That's our relationship. And she's quite something. So I did all the research at my point, and then you throw it all away, and I don't know which bit stuck. Did you like him? I think he was troubled. I think he was born in 1904 for a start.

So this is the 60s, the most of our showtakes place. And he was so out of his time, and there was just such scars from his childhood, such damage. I think he could be very funny and very charming, but I think it was very dark and troubled. Until the end of his life. The scenes of him and his mother are really painful to watch. Yeah. The latest scenes of him and his mother. And the fact that that whole story is about him not knowing is complete, you know. Yeah. No, it's amazing. You're right. I don't know if I liked him. I don't like or dislike anyone I'll play.

I think he was there as a human being and we show him. And the value of it for people who will watch you don't know, Karen Grant, isn't on as all the dinosaurs, is that there are so many people whose lives look perfect today that you can watch and feel less than and feel like if Tony I was there. And my experience at least has been, when I'm close up to him, those people, it's such a facade and to be reminded and remember

that and remember to deal with our childhood so we can break the chains. Gabriel Burm was on the show a few weeks back talking about this film that he's done. I think it was a terrific film about Samuel Beckett and he would forget who he's quoting but he said we all have a public life, a private life and a secret life. And what your TV series does is put all of them. It really felt as though all of the normally we get one or the other, maybe both, but here we've got all three.

I mean, I hopefully is entertaining as well. I mean, I just like being in the 60s for a while. I love those clothes. All my clothes were saddle rose suits. They're all bespoke, maybe. I guess the budget. No, it was. It was the entire costume budget.

And they had to scrabble around the skips for everybody else's stuff. But it was nice being in a different era, driving those different cars and the most. Do you walk differently in those clothes? Completely. Well, he was bandy late, so I pushed my knees out as well and put stuff on my shoes. Yeah, he walked differently in the suits. Oh my God, he was bandy late, so I pushed my knees out as well, and put stuff on my shoes. Yeah, he wore it differently in the suits.

Oh my God, you can be hunched over. And you're looking the mirror and you're bolted up right, you've got to, you know, like an Olympic athlete, because they have to do so many fittings, they're going to, they move the shoulder back a bit and the chest forward a bit. It's excellent. I didn't get to keep any of them at the end. Thanks a lot.

Did you bring any of these, I know, obviously a very difficult and troubled person, but he was also this incredibly attractive icon. Did you bring any of the attractive icon home? Well, I don't look like me. So people go, he looks so handsome. I go, there's maybe one square inch of my skin that you would. I've got a thick chin because he had famously had a dimple.

I've got different eyes, big cow-like brown eyes. I've got an assortment of different wigs and clothes. So no, I just stripped off at the end of the day, I get, oh no, that's what I'm gonna have to go. I had a deep dark brown Ronseal tan as well that would come off, I would feel like I had some kind of skin complaint for how male I was. Later on in this pub, Mark's gonna be reviewing

my strobe, then you remember, I had to keep the leather bone style film. And I was reading about this film, this is before it had come out, so this is not getting in the way of Marx's review, and it's not a comment about from someone who's actually seen it. I remember the press stuff. And the criticism aimed at Bradley Cooper used these phrases, jufece and gay face. They were the lines that were used because according to this piece, he's not Jewish and he's not gay therefore he shouldn't be playing this role. And I obviously

actors are getting this stuff all the time. What do you think as an actor when you read that kind of criticism from someone who's not based on the movie but just based on the casting? So David Badeel wrote an interesting book called Juice Don't Count, where one, it's a great book and makes a lot of very valid arguments, but there's a section where we talk about the casting of Jewish people. And as an actor myself, he's played game many times and hopes to continue to play a wide range of people. I don't think it's, personally, I don't think that Jewish people need to play Jewish people. I do think very often when Rucker Hard plays the head of the Jews or Dan Craig plays

that as a Jew, you know, I go, then I've seen my Canadian Jewish person I've ever met. But they could do. And, you know, Eddie Marzen, not only plays Jewish people, he's not Jewish. He's also played Nazis, hasn't he? Yes, he's made a lot of time when I was only ever playing Scottish people. And my friend Alan Cumming was only ever playing Jewish people. He's simply another Jew, no. So I don't think that's true.

I think you cast people to be the best thing that they are. I understand when the rightly was a fuss that disabled actors don't get the work. And so when other able people are playing disabled people, that's unfair to a proportion of people, you know, cohort who don't get work. I think the gay thing, there is no such thing as gay phase, because I'm many gay friends, you wouldn't,

you know, that absolutely there's nothing outward that tells you about some of the sexuality. The fuss about Bradley Cooper was that he had a big nose on, and in some of the stills that were released, it looked like he had a, you know, kind of, gobbles like giant nose, but then I see another stills from different angles where it doesn't look giant and there's no question that Bernstein had a big nose than Bradley Cooper. So I'll judge it when I see the film. I certainly want to be free to play any kind of part, as long as I do it with honesty and integrity. So, I do think that such a thing is not casting Jewish people in Jewish parts,

and I very often watch things and go, nobody has, I don't know what it is, it's not the only, they had to see Jewish, but they don't seem Jewish to me. And have I got a six-centre or is that nonsense? I don't know. Wrecking Phoenix was on the show last last week and he was along with Vanessa Kirby. We're talking. He's not French. No, he absolutely.

Or indeed very much doesn't he? Well, like it's neither was Napoleon of course. One of the most enjoyable things about Napoleon is... I don't even say one of the most enjoyable things about intervening Wacking Phoenix. That's a long list here. He's Rupert Everett, playing at Duke Wellington, who is absolutely... He's only the last half hour of the film, but he's having such a fantastic time, and I know that you're

in Verona with Everett, and I think you're both aristocrats. We are, and we were swishing around a lot of Hessian and Belvin stuff, but it was very, very cold, and Rupert God bless him, was possibly funny and more entertaining off camera about how cold it was, and how we shouldn't be put through these terrible conditions Then he was on camera. Well, there was very good on camera too So what do we do what do we need to know about for so in what or so? I've got that you're doing the salt path you didn't just finished yesterday Actually, all right, I got some salt so once we've seen our

Jason was in Cornwall, but he didn't visit me You were two hours away. You were two hours away. I was two hours away. No, no, I was really wasn't. He's going to be mentioning this. I know. I was dying to see. I did text.

I did try. He texted me and said, I can't go that far. I can't. The salt path, Anna and Verona coming out in what in what order? I know I did in what order. Oh, which format? So they're all cinema releases. Anna's a film about Anna Polakovsky, the extraordinary journalist who first

channels Putin called him out for being a gangster, actually called him out for the playbook he used in Chechnya, which is exactly what he did in Ukraine, called him Nazis, claimed a bunch of stuff was happening, went in mass rape and mass graves and torture and demonize the enemy. So she eventually for her, I took shortening the film, her life story is extraordinary, and journalists, as we know, being killed all over the world in conflicts all the time,

she was one of the most prominent, she was known as Mother Russia by the Russians who wanted to see her coverage. She was killed for her pains on his birthday. In fact, they just released a murderer three days ago, I think. A Maxine Peak, a place where a Maxine Peak is a force of nature. So I don't know when that's coming out for owner, is an original musical with songs written by the guys

who write for Beyoncé and other people at Haleone. And I can't tell you how exciting it was to be on set with lots of people who could sing, well, don't worry, I don't own my mouth. You don't sing, absolutely not. Because you've always said you can't sing. That's correct. That was an affair. I said, I'm not modest.

I'm not a man. I'm accurate. But the people who can sing, the Grammy winners all around me, and oh my god, when they were singing, the original songs, they got to hear it twice, but of course on set, you hear them 50 times. I came back just singing those songs nonstop. Rebel Wilson's in it, singing as well. She's got a fantastic voice, surprisingly. But anyway, so that, and the sole path I just finished shooting with Ginny Anderson yesterday,

and it's based on a great book, if you haven't read it, you should get it in. It's a beautiful, inspiring story about two of the most extraordinary people I've ever met. I hope we do them justice because in the flesh, you think your story needs to be told to people. Jason, it's going to be reappearing when we talk about the best carry grant movies. Do you want to stay for the laughter lift as well? Of course. That doesn't need to, it's the best medicine right here. Yes, that's right.

So there's a little laughter in the lots of things. There was a time when you were using jokes that were out in the world that were objectively funny and then that readers sent in and then it's now just your children. Do you want to just, he's charging up on the top of the series? You just want to listen to the jokes and then enjoy them now just your children. Do you want to just, he's charging up on their job? You just want to listen to the jokes and then enjoy them and relish them. I will, I will. You have a child who's a fantastic stand-up comedian, so yeah. Yes, that's right.

He did not write any of these though. So he wants that to be on the record, but he didn't write any of these jokes. Yes, let's step into the laughter lift. Play the tune, there we go. Very crowded in here with Mark and with Jason and with Archie. Yes, let's step into the laughter lift, play the tune, there we go. Very crowded in here with Mark and with Jason and with Archie. I always look for the place you can climb out of a lift. Over the mercy. Yeah, it exists. They have a tough crowd.

Hey, Mark, hey, Jason, I managed to get out of the big smoke at the weekend. Out into the country we headed, having a lovely little drive through some rolling farmland. When suddenly we saw a farmer waving furiously at us with a loose herd behind him, excuse me, it's an emergency, can you please help me round up my 18 cows? He said, no problem, I said, that's 20 cows, have a lovely day.

Oh, it's a round up boy. It's the way I tell him. You were doing this. Very worried about the state of education in rural areas. I bought a nice sofa, a nice big sofa this week. I went to the furniture shop and the assistant said, great choice, this sofa will seat five people without any problems. I said, hang on, where am I going to find five people without any problems?

Hey! How are you? Off we drove. A few minutes later, we got lost and the good lady's ceramic sister didn't get any better. This is it. This is it. This is it. Every week. And! Off we drove. A few minutes later we got lost and the good ladies ceramicist there indoors. This is it. This is every week and the week in week out. And the good, the good let's shut your face. The good ladies ceramicist there indoors said, you really have no sense of direction do you? I said, when did that come from? Nice. They see, you've started up today. No, because sometimes you rigged them out like it's a tech rehearsal for the microphone.

Yeah, that's how I feel. I've got an audio, though, because you think, well, if I don't commit to making an actual joke, I can't fail. I've got Carrie Grant, that is what it is. I've got Carrie Grant in the studio. Can you still do Carrie Grant's voice? No, I've done three films since then, I don't know what it sounds like. We'll be back after this, unless you're a Vanguardista, in which case we have just one question. What do British and American schools have,

but Japanese schools don't have? From opening your first location to planning an expansion in no time, and with your business platinum card from American Express, you can access spending power and payment flexibility to fuel your growth. Sarah, the contractor's here with the plans. American Express, don't do business without it. Terms and conditions apply visit mx.ca slash business platinum. conditions apply visit mx.ca slash business platinum. Metro links and cross links are reminding everyone to be careful as Eglinton Cross-town LRT train testing is in progress. Please be alert, this trains can pass at

any time on the tracks. Remember to follow all traffic signals. Be careful along our tracks and only make left turns where it's safe to do so. Be alert, be aware, and stay safe. So the question, what do British and American schools have at Japanese schools? I took a punt and lunch break. The answer is cleaners. Oh. In most Japanese schools, the students do all the cleaning themselves the Japanese

the Japanese education system believes they're requiring students to clean the school themselves teaches respect responsibility and emphasize his equality Is that amazing? Yes, that's astonishing. I remember when was it last World Cup? I think when the Japanese Yes, that's astonishing. I remember when was it last World Cup? I think when the Japanese fans had been in the stadium, they all stayed to clean up the stadium. So if the Japanese had been playing, all the fans cleared up the stadium. So it was just part of what they did. I think that's really impressive. It is. Anyway, very good. Thank you Simon. I think I'm very interested. That's very good.

And all of that. Now, our next guest began his career as a child actor in Peter Pan. Alongside? Is it Jason Isaac? It is Jason Isaac. Yeah, starring roles in Private Peaceful, how I live now for those in peril, for which you won a BAFTA Scotland Award. He's nominated for the BAFTA Rising Star Award, the musical Sunshine on Leith and Maribone. That's not Sunshine on Leith.

And Maribone has two separate films. Also a wider recognition, of course, for his leading role in 1917, the Sam Mendes, extraordinary first world war, epic George Mackay now stars in Femme, you can air a chat with him after this clip from the movie. So what is this like? This is like what I'm about. My MO. In a day it's a boy's in the hands of one.

Nah, not usually. Okay. I'm not about it. Didn't I date some boys in the store? Ma, what usually? Okay. So what makes me so special? I'll have to get back to you on that one. Oh, shit. Same. And I'm just trying to work out with the five bits here.

What do you mean? I'm not imagining double dates for your friends any time soon. You were funny. You keep your Saudi life completely separate. I'm a private person. I don't like people getting in my business. One of the quieter conversations between Nathan Stewart-Jarratt playing Jules in that scene and George McKay playing Preston, delighted to say George has joined us.

So George, are we saying Fem here or Fem? Fem, Fem's the one. And explain why it's that pronunciation rather than the French Fem. Well, the French Fem, I guess it's British Indy. And I think Fem is the term, it's the term within the queer community community for someone who's sort of in touch with more Femme inside of their character in harnessing that. So explain how you got involved in this film? Yeah, it was lucky enough to be Sam and Ping reached out and wanted to have a conversation about playing Preston. And so I kind of first sat down and spoke with them and was just

like, so taken with their vision and ambition for it. And the new ones that they kind of first sat down and spoke with them and was just like so taken with their sort of vision and ambition for it and and the nuance that they kind of saw, saw what they wanted to do with it with. They spoke about kind of being a real fan of the genre of the kind of the noir thriller, but as queer filmmakers not really seeing themselves within that, so wanting to kind of subvert that and put a queer character at the centre of it. And so yeah, they spoke about that and explained the character of Preston and as an actor, he's such a kind of meaty, complex role given the sort of all that he's hiding in all the nuance. But then also the whole film's about a drag

and so his kind of performance of himself has turned up to 11 somewhat. So it was just so exciting, the prospect of it, that following that meeting, Nathan and I had a chemistry read together and then we were lucky enough to kind of get going. And just to clear something, when you're talking about what sounded like salmon ping, you're talking, so these are the directors, just explain who they are. And H Freeman and Unchung Ping are the writers and directors who are dear friends and collaborators

and who wrote this together and directed it together as a duo. One of the things about your character is that when we first meet him, he is tattooed very, very violent. There's a violent interaction between the two central characters. I have known you for many a year and you are a lovely and gentle person and yet you are actually very scary in those early scenes. How hard was it to do that, George?

It was, to be honest, that was almost one of my biggest concerns. I know that that's not something that, I guess, if you've personally, it kind of comes as the first thing that you'd think of. You're not a bit tasty with your fists in real life, are you? I'd like to think so, but I really have no experience. I think in the mirror, I'm pretty hard, but no, it was important, because that's such a fundamental thing, is that it's so destructive, that first attack, and for the tension to run through the film, there should be, I think, a real legitimate, there's all kinds of threat,

there's the threat of the people being out being outed of your identity sort of being kind of discovered and shown, but there is also a kind of pure physical violence threat throughout the film and what kind of gets the film going. So it was a sort of concern to be able to do that, but I guess with all things like any character you just sort of dive in and and the material sort of also, you know, it sets it all up for you. So it was just about leaning into that as much as possible and kind of going with the scene. And you talked about drag in the case of your character, the drag is manifested through the tattoos. Tell us about having those tattoos applied because they are such a big part of the character.

Yeah. So, so Marie Dean, her and makeup designer was just amazing and we had a lot of conversations about the tattoos because as you say they are Preston's kind of masculine drag. We kind of thought of him as a drag king, as opposed to Jules as a drag queen. And the tattoos were, they were sort of a mixture. They was always specified that he needed one on his neck to sort of make him identifiable. And I thought there would be just a sort of small something underneath his ear. And then Marie sort of presented this collar to begin with. And it really kind of blew open,

blew open the whole character basically and the possibility of how far we could take it. And so we began with that. And once we sort of decided all that big statement feels right, it kind of made men that we just had more than we first intended. And then it became about kind of made men that we just had more than we first intended and then it became about kind of giving each one a meaning, like a sort of hidden meaning for myself to kind of

speak certain things about the character and feel certain things about the character, there's lots of sort of hidden more kind of feminine things within the sleeve on his arm and then there's also just a kind of bit more surface level kind of bad choices, they kind of, they're thinking through the sort of, I think Preston is someone who is hypersensitive of how he looks and being current and as sort of, you know, he is into fashion. There's that kind of thing that you find out about him later on as well.

And so I think he's gone through phases. So there was so, we wanted to reflect that in the nature of the tattoos that, you know, when Lions were cool, he got a lion and when warriors were cool. He got a warrior And so try to kind of give him a bit of backstory in the art that was on his body Why is he so angry? Because he's not happy in himself basically. I think he's he doesn't he sort of fun because of his understanding of what it is to be a man it doesn't chime with his sexuality and

that kind of conundrum and I sort of fundamental misunderstanding in himself is something he just can't accept. And it's think he's terrified of people finding out his sexuality. And it's sort of made him create this character, which takes him even further away from that part of himself as well. He's kind of taken one part of himself to distance himself from another part of himself and kind of broken himself up inside. So I think he's just fundamentally unhappy and because there's a fragility to what he's built because it is so strong, if you know what I mean, if that's not too confusing, because he's lent so hard on a single aspect of himself. It's made the rest of him feel very fragile and that thing that he's created so hard on a single aspect of himself. It's made the rest of him feel very fragile

and that thing that he's created quite fragile. And so he's sort of animal in wanting to protect that. In that clip, which we started with you and Nathan Stewart, Jared playing Jules, I mean, you mentioned the chemistry read that you had. He puts in an astonishing performance as do you. What came out to that read?

Why did everyone think you were the right pairing because you are, but I'm intrigued to know what happens at a chemistry read? Well, I think it was like an initial spark. I think it's a sort of Nathan and I also just felt immediately comfortable with each other. There was a sort of unexplained synergy, I guess, without signing to, you know, without signing. Yeah, without kind of being... You're among friends, say, synergy. No, synergy, yeah.

Um, we just hit it off and we kind of flowed together. Nathan was working on a night shoot from something literally a minute before he arrived to the room and had to leave immediately after continuing filming. And so there was this sort of, he was knackered and there was this sort of real openness to him and we both really wanted, you know, wanted to do a good job with the scene and to get this and to make it work. So there was an immediate sort of quite pragmatic openness

which set the tone of us to, I think, which felt particular to us. And then it was actually the scene that you just played was the scene that we read in the audition. There was that one and an altercation by a car that happens later on. And I think the two things they wanted to see was, if I could be scarier than Nathan, because he'd just come off a job where he was absolutely covered in muscles.

And so I had to sort of bulk up and he had to slim down. And then once they knew, sort could see that dynamic, then it was about this sort of frisson between them, I guess. And this spark, because I think what's exciting, complex, and sort of unique about the film is it's almost quite compromising because there is a legitimate sort of possibility in a spark and I guess I love between these guys despite the terrible nature and quite, you know, on both sides dark nature from which it's born out of and that sort of merciness is important to the film and so

I think they just wanted to see if that spark was there and there was a moment when we were sort of had this kind of, I guess kind of flirtatious chess match in that scene where something kind of clicked and I think we all sort of went, oh, I think that's the vibe that we're hopefully going to be exploring throughout the shoot. And that moment felt like it was sort of the beginning for us. The feature has its roots in the short from 2021. What's the relationship between this and that short film? So Sam and Ping took their concept, this idea of wanting to make a noir thriller with a queer character at the centre of it to explore these themes of identity, to agile films who produced the film. And they kind of went, we love the idea, but you've never

made a film before. Sam Freeman has a background in screenwriting and Ping is a theater director. And so they said, we'll fund a short film and it's kind of see how you guys go. And that was a totally different story, but very much kind of equivalent roles and equivalent themes. And those characters were played by Paprasseidu and Harris Dickinson. And then the short did really well. It won a Biffre award and it got nominated for a baffer.

And I think off the success and momentum of that, the feature film was born. And then, you know, in the process as sort of things move and change, then as did the cast, and that's when sort of Nathan and I got involved. But that was the beginning of it. And you've always been a champion of independent films. I mean, you've quite often, I mean, whether it's things like for those in peril, which we receive great acclaim or smaller films in that, you've always been somebody who's interested in working with up and coming filmmakers

and championing smaller films. Yeah, I think it's, to be honest, it's about the script. I think those films I've always found thrilling. They're so exciting. I think with the independent film as much as there is a lack of funding, you know that, but almost because of that lack of funding, there isn't, or this sort of, it's not a prerequisite that they have to, you know, ideally they make their money back, but they are made usually because people believe in that vision, and there's no sort of expectation on, you know, this vision

has to be sort of shaped by commercial expectations. And therefore, you're allowed to sort of, I think, take bigger swings of things and explore things which perhaps maybe, you know, aren't deemed to be as commercial of viewing. And that's where I think the most, therefore, the most kind of intriguing and exciting stories are. So it's usually about the script as well. And this script was just so brilliantly written and so tight that I just wanted to be a part of it. What's the like, where can we two directors? George, is that an unusual experience?

No, it's great. It's unique, but what was great about Sam and Ping is they kind of, and it would change, it wasn't like Sam gave one type of direction and Ping gave another, but it was always that you would kind of get a structural note in a scene, and then one of the others would back it up with a more metaphorical, kind of poetic note. So you'd have, actually that scene that you just spoke about, I remember in the audition, Sam said, okay, this is a really important beat in the story because at this point, Preston feels that Jules has misread him and he chooses to follow through on giving Jules the version that he thinks he wants, but it's a fundamental sort of misdirection. And I was kind of,

okay, so that's what it needs to happen in the story. And then Ping followed up with, he said, yeah, but if this was a romantic comedy, you've just arrived with a ring in your back pocket and he's broken up with you. That's what it feels like. And I was like, okay, great. So you get this kind of structural note and then an emotional note to sort of merge together and it gives you an inside-out side view of the scene.

And if I can just reduce things to a lowest possible common denominator level, which is my forte, you're very buff in famed Georgia. Have you kept the muscles? Not as much as I'd like. It took a lot of eating and a lot of time at the gym and I don't have the same sort of time. I really liked it. I felt sort of good in that sort of more to use your words buff body. So I'm trying to hold on to it, but it's not quite, you know, without the singular motivation of famed, it's not quite sustained. You always have the photographs, though. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's my, I'm feeling like this from down here, actually, I'm sort of rippling with muscles.

What can you tell us about your musical with Tilda Swinton? So it's called The End, and it's written and directed by Josh Oppenheimer and who was the director and man behind the documentary, The Act of Killing and the Sound of Silence and these so an incredible documentary maker and it's the story of the last fact, ostensibly the last family on earth who live in a luxury bunker and have kept themselves safe while the sort of world has fallen around outside and it's about that the tension of that kind of family safe while the sort of world has fallen around outside. And it's about that, the tension of that kind of family dynamic and the sort of the subtle denial that needs to sort of carry on to sustain that family dynamic when no one can have an argument basically.

And then a survivor finds their way into the mix and it fundamentally changes the possibility of the household. Do you see the end next or you've done the beast with layers to do? Yes, so the beast will be coming out next. That was at festivals in the summer and I believe that will be February, March time. I think it was still waiting to hear exactly on distribution. That's a really beautiful, strange film that is the vision of Bertone Bonnello and that's about a couple who basically have a relationship throughout different periods of time. They're almost on a loop

with each other through time but suffer from this kind of the beast is a metaphor for the fear of love basically and the fear of committing. How are you managing to fit all this work around young fatherhood? It was a busy summer like like last year. It was my partner, it's absolutely amazing. And we've sort of been a wee traveling band to kind of get it all done. But it's actually this last couple of months has been a lot of home time, which is balance things. In the meantime, if you want to go and see Superbuff,

Gorgeous George, the movie is famed. Will they have a good distribution? Do you think, George? Yeah, well, and you know, all that I said about the kind of the Indian nature I think the film the hope with this one is it feels like it's a really exciting film and I hope and it's intended it's for the cinemas it's going to be only it's only a theatrical release. So it's I think the hope is is this one of those indies that has the potential to pop. So you know it will be there in December 1st I think sort of all over the UK and then American next year.

So yeah, we'd love folk to go see it. My advice to Mark was, don't watch it on the tube. Because he's, you might get some looks there. You don't want someone looking over your shoulder going, what are you watching? Yeah, anyway. George Bukai, always a pleasure. Thank you very much. No, thank you so much. Thank you. Yeah, well, certainly, you don't want to watch it on the tube,

but I was thinking that in cinemas, in cinemas, but you had a little kind of thick, you know, so that you could, I just thought it's one of those that you probably wanted to watch in the privacy of your own room. But he is one of those actors who does, as we know, as we've already mentioned, 1917, big Sam Mendes mainstream, also champion of small independence. Yes, always has been.

And similar to, he just reminded me, Paul Muscale is much, he was about four or five years younger than Gorgeous George. And obviously Paul is Gorgeous Paul. But when he was on the show last time, he was talking about supporting independence in a mind, supporting small films. And really, that's his happy place. And he always wants to do small films, small independent films, that's him.

So he's currently starring in Gladiator 2. Ha ha ha ha ha ha. Ridley Scott. Ha ha ha ha ha ha. Scurrying off, because we're going to mention what a busy chap he is. An off he goes. But hey, good luck to him.

And that'll be able to finance a whole bunch of more, kind of small independent films. Anyway, Femm. Yes. So, I mean, to recap some of the things that George said, Davey Feature and Sam Freeman and Jim Ping. Sam and Ping. Sam and Ping. builds on a short, I think the short featured Harris Dickinson, if I remember correctly. Yeah, okay. So, Jules, Nathan Stewart-J Jara is a drag queen who we see performing on stage. And then we see him in an off-license where George McKay's Preston are harassing him. And he says, something on the lines of, don't threaten me when I saw you checking me out earlier on. And Preston is so outraged by this that he then savagely assaults him.

Sometime later, they meet in a sauna and Jules resolves to get revenge, to seduce him, and then expose him because there are videos online of this happening. And this is kind of that's that that's the plan. Or is it, is there something else going on in the relationship? Is everything about it performance? Is he just trying to get a compromising video? Or is something else going on? And performance is the key thing here. We mentioned there, you know, that on the one hand, one of the characters is dressing in drag for certain scenes, but obviously in the case of George McCoy's character, he has his own drag, which is the tattoos, the fact that he's performing as this person out in the way he says, I'm a very private person, meaning there are

some areas of his life that he keeps separate from other areas. So everything is to do with performance, everything is to do with characters inhabiting characters, which actually weirdly enough follows on rather neatly from the conversation we were having with Jason Isaacs about the fact that Carrie Grant was a character played by Archie Leach. And the film flirts with the erotic thriller genre because it mixes kind of palpable sexual tension with the threat of, you know, violence. There's also an understanding that the kind of, that there is a master-slave dynamic in sexual power games, which are all about role-play, and again, all about adopting roles and adopting persona.

And I think that it works because just as much of the drama plays out, a lot of it takes place at night, it's kind of crepuscular, there are neon-drenched scenes, and the action itself sort of takes place in that in that twilight zone where things are uncertain in which you're not quite sure what anyone's motivation or anyone's actually Everyone has a number of different fronts that they're presenting to the world and the way that those things interact is You know, how much is real? How much is performance? How much is feeling, how much is thought, how much is planned, how much is, you know, it's just happening on this further moment. I thought the performances were great. I thought the film looked really good, had a real tactile feeling to it. It kind of, you know, it's a very physical film. I think the performance is a very physical and the way in which it's to do with, you know, it's not just what character say, it was interesting hearing George McConaughey, that clip because his voice is so completely different to what his normal voice is like Jason Isaacs.

He's very good with, you know, with, with, with, with, with accent. And that is, I, it's always amazed me that, you know, actors transform themselves physically and they transform the way they speak because to me that's magic and it's alchemy. When you see him in that role, he is like a completely different person. But I thought the performances were great, they were very physical. I liked the fact that the film itself has a physical tactility to it. I was genuinely interested in where is this going? How is this going to play out? How is this danger zone between these characters going to resolve itself,

but not least because at the beginning, the violence is really, really distressing. So I thought it was very well done and very intriguing, and I enjoyed it very much. And the movie is called FEM. Quick what's on then. Thank you for the correspondence. Attach your voice note to correspondents at curbidamo.com like this. Hi, my name is Chris, and I'm the artistic director of the Rose Theatre in Kingston. On Thursday, the 14th of December, we will be hosting a fundraising evening

with the magnificent Toby Jones, where he'll talk about his life and all the amazing work he's done across stage, television and film. There'll be a chance for members of the audience to ask questions, as well as a post-show reception with Toby for premium ticket holders.

The Rose is a charity, and so all proceeds will go towards the work we do on our stage and in our community. So, if you fancy having a Toby Jones evening, rather than a Nobee Jones evening, go to rosetheatre.org to book your tickets. That's Chris.

That's the way to do it. That's the way to do it. That's the way to do it. Short punchy and including an in-joke. Yes. Chris promoting an evening with Toby Jones. Why wouldn't you? Why wouldn't you?

Every evening would be full of delights if it had Chris and Toby Jones having a conversation. you? Why wouldn't you? Every evening would be full of delights if it had Chris and Toby Jones having a conversation. Anyway, so that's fun. Send your 20-second audio trailer please about your cinematic or television or anything that you think we might be interested in. Anywhere in the world, to correspondentsacerminemode.com. That's it for take one. This has been a Sony Music Entertainment production. This week's team was Lily and Gully and Vicki and Zaki and Matty and Michael Lee and Bethi. Simon Paul was the oratrice mecanic danellis cardinale. What's your film in the week? Eileen.

Thank you. Thank you for downloading us. Take two is landed adjacent. Lots of extra stuff. Recommendations more with Carrie Grant choosing his favourite Carrie Grant film. Take three. We'll be with you on Wednesday.