Kermode & Mayo’s Take - Has FRANKENSTEIN got Mark (re)animated? + Russell Tovey

Episode Date: October 16, 2025

Vanguardistas have more fun—so if you don’t already subscribe to the podcast, join the Vanguard today via Apple Podcasts or extratakes.com for non-fruit-related devices. In return you’ll get a whole extra Take 2 alongside Take 1 every week, with bonus reviews, more viewing recommendations from the Good Doctors and whole bonus episodes just for you. And if you’re already a Vanguardista, we salute you.  Another packed show this week with four movie reviews for your listening pleasure. First up, ‘Black Phone 2’ -- the sequel to 2021’s comms-based chiller, starring Ethan Hawke. Like a lot of horror movies, the fact that his character died in the last film isn’t really a big deal. Speaking of reanimation, we’ve got Guillermo del Toro’s Frankenstein too—a fresh take on the much-adapted classic horror novel, this time starring Jacob Elordi as the monster. ‘Roofman’ sees Channing Tatum hiding in a Toys ‘R’ Us in a crime caper based on a bizarre true story from ‘The Place Beyond The Pines’ director Derek Cianfrance—and finally, a new Luca Guadagnino out this week too. ‘After The Hunt’ stars Julia Roberts as a Yale college professor frustrated by her student’s allegations against a colleague... and it’s ripe to get under Mark’s skin—so buckle up for that one.  Plus, those of you who enjoyed Mark’s review of ‘Plainclothes’ last week will be pleased to hear that this week we’re welcoming the very lovely Russell Tovey to the show. The charged drama follows an undercover cop assigned to arrest gay men at cruising spots—and Russell plays a target who becomes an unexpected love interest. He and Simon unpack the film and how it speaks to today—plus a bit of art chat and a mysterious arty paperback too...  Strap in too for what we think is an especially good Laughter Lift, if we do say so ourselves—and more of your top correspondence answered—including a fascinating neuroscientific take on tearjerkers. Link here to the article mentioned in that one: https://medium.com/@itsanavidreader/why-we-cry-at-movies-but-not-real-life-the-psychology-behind-emotional-processing-de18f2dbf624  And don’t miss our upcoming LIVE Christmas Extravaganza at London’s Prince Edward Theatre. Tickets here: fane.co.uk/kermode-mayo        Timecodes (for Vanguardistas listening ad-free)  Black Phone 2 Review: 09:04  Box Office Top Ten: 15:35  Russell Tovey Interview: 28:23  After The Hunt Review: 43:56  Laughter Lift: 52:30  Roofman Review: 59:31  Frankenstein Review: 01:08:14      You can contact the show by emailing [e-mail] or you can find us on social media, @KermodeandMayo  Please take our survey and help shape the future of our show: https://www.kermodeandmayo.com/survey   EXCLUSIVE NordVPN Deal ➼ https://nordvpn.com/take Try it risk-free now with a 30-day money-back guarantee!  A Sony Music Entertainment production.      Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts and follow us @sonypodcasts    To advertise on this show contact: [e-mail]  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This episode is brought to you by Mooby, a curated streaming service dedicated to elevating great cinema. Mooby is the place to discover ambitious films by visionary filmmakers, all carefully handpicked. So, you can explore the best of cinema streaming anytime, anywhere. Mark, what have Mooby got up their sleeves for us this October? Well, Simon, there's a very exciting new release coming to UK cinemas on October the 24th, The Mastermind. It's the new film from Kelly Reichard, the brilliant director of Meek's cutoff, Moves and First Cow, which we interviewed the great Toby Jones. It went down a storming can early this year.

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a VPN for the MCU. With NordVPN, you can travel the world faster than a private jet, minus the carbon footprint, of course. Unwrap a huge discount on NordVPN by heading to NordVPN.com slash take plus. With our link, you can get an extra four months free on the two-year plan and it's risk-free with Nord's 30-day money-back guarantee. Check the link. in our description. All right, Mark. You're in a different place. I'm in the BFI.

I'm in the BFI South Bank in London's Glittering West End. Very good acoustic. Yeah, because I'm going from here to do an on-stage with Daniel Day-Lewis, which is at midday. So they've given me a room. And this is why I've got these fabulous Palin Pressburger posters behind me, which are really fab.

As opposed to a guitar, which will fall off the... I know. I know. How was the holiday? It was very nice, thank you. A little bit of Denmark, a little bit of France, Copenhagen and Paris. And I have to say, the one thing that those countries have in common, apart from the fact that they're both in the Schengen Agreement, which means you can fly from Copenhagen to Paris without going through passport control,

which was a wonderful thing. was pastries. You were sending me pictures of pastries. You were sending me pictures of pastries. Have you eaten your own body weight in pastries? Oh, and then some, and then some. No, we had a really nice time. And having said to you a couple of weeks ago

that I've given up wearing t-shirts with writing on, I went to this, we did lots of fancy art stuff because that's what the good ladies ceramicist likes to do. And there's a festival, a minimalist kind of festival at the boss in Paris. And it has this t-shirt, which I'm wearing here for you, which just says minimal. Minimal. That's the only word that's on it. And I thought, okay, well, that describes things very well.

Also, I wanted to show you my new toy. Oh, go on. It's like this. Hello, Mark. My name is... It's the world. smallest megaphone. It makes you sound like Gollum.

That was really weird. Do it again. My presence. I can see. It does a variety of voices as well anyway. Quite a useful birthday present, I have to say. Anyway, I hope you didn't enjoy last week too much. No, I didn't.

Just enough. You sorely missed. Solly missed. Yeah. Well, here we are. So you're about to go and do Daniel DeLuze. Is there any chance he might kind of wander into the dressing room? Because we're hoping that he's going to come on this show.

Yes. If he just came into your dressing room now, we could just knock him off quickly, couldn't we? Yeah. Not in that sense. Yes, I was trying to, unfortunate turn of phrase. Hurry up, Daniel. We've got five minutes. Tell us about this film.

An enemy. Can't even say the word properly. It's a lemony. Lemony. Anemone. Okay. Do you think we should start calling anemonee Snicket? Yes.

I mean, why it's called an enemy is interesting, actually, but I'm sure you'll address that topic. And then, hopefully, he'll be on this show. But not in the same dressing room as you. No, I'm not in a dressing room. I'm in a boardroom. I don't have a dressing room. I've got my suit is literally just hanging up off a poster over there.

Are you not going to do the Dodge Brother? You've got a Dodge Brother's t-shirt on. You should wear that. I can't wear this a seat, but can I tell you something? So last night, I did a, I was on stage. with, so Daniel Day Lewis, Ronan Day Lewis, Samantha Morton and Sean Bean. And we were waiting just to go on

because they'd done a screening of the film. And it was just this very quick Q&A. And just before we went on, Daniel Day Lewis said, I've never realised before, but you're a teddy boy. Wow. I treasure those words. I know. It was the fact that I've never realized before.

I thought that was my MO. I thought that was the thing that everybody said, I've never realized before, but you're a teddy boy, aren't you? Can I just say, You can't do a quick Q&A with that number of people. It's just not possible. Well, it was 30 minutes, but it was like, you know, there's four people on stage showy, but anyway. But I just, yeah, it was not something I expected him because I just thought, well, that's the thing that, you know, everyone knows.

What's that Mark? Oh, yeah, he's an old Ted. And I said, yeah, I've got a collection of drape coats. He said, oh, marvellous. And an old trot. He might have mentioned that as well. That's what he meant, yeah. Okay, so a little bit of that kind of conversation coming up. are you going to be talking about later on?

We've got a packed show. Packed show. So we got reviews of Blackphone 2, after the hunt, Roof Man, and of course, Guillermo del Toro's Frankenstein. And our very special guest this week,

which I'm thrilled about. Well, we're going to talk to Russell Tovey, whose film playing clothes is in cinemas now, and you reviewed it last week when I wasn't here, I believe. I did. And in Take 2, what are the big reviews there? So Gabby's Doll House, the movie,

and I was getting up to speed with that. Are you up to speed with the phenomenon that is Gabby's Dull House? Well, it's either a kid's movie or it's a horror film. Yeah, it's the former. And Good Fortune, which has got Kinan-N-N-N-N-N-N-N-N-N-N- as an angel. Plus all the extra stuff, including details of all the best and worst films on TV over the weekend, further discussion of the best Frankenstein movies in one frame back, and questions, Schmestians, in which we answer the excellent question,

what's a subtle sign that someone was never loved properly as a kid? And I read that and I thought, that's the kind of question which needs to be answered by people who know what they're talking about, not by two-jubbing people like us. Anyway, there are also some cheerier ones as well. Plus, let us remind you that full video episodes are now available on YouTube, as well as the reviews and the interviews. So head over and subscribe. That's a very, very lovely thing. And tickets are selling very fast for our Christmas movie spectacular. At the Prince Edward Theatre on Sunday, December the 7th at half-past.

too. And if you were lucky enough to get into Nigel Smith's pre-show walks, he's doing one again this year starting at 11 a.m. in Leicester Square and finishing two hours later, a 10-minute walk from the Prince Edward Theatre, leaving plenty of time for lunch too. So that's on the seventh. And honestly, his walking tours are absolutely brilliant. If you want to find out where Harrison Ford buried a pair of handcuffs in 1993, this will be the perfect way to spend your morning before the matinee to end all matinees at half-past two. Go to memory palaces.com.com. For more details or find Nigel on a street near you.

I know, or find Nigel on your socials. Tickets for the Christmas movie spectacular are at fain. Dot co.k slash kermode hyphen mayo. Okay, that's quite complicated. So it's Fanef-F-N-E dot co.k slash curmode hyphen mayo. That link is also in the show notes. It might be easier just to look at that and then click your way through. correspondence welcome of course at all times and in all places

correspondence at kermanemaire.com Dear Marley and Hooch says Matt for as long as I can remember Now I have to say we're starting This is a A sad email To start with Normally we start with cheery stuff

But anyone who has a pet Which has passed away will sympathise with Matt For as long as I can remember Saturday mornings have included a long dog walk accompanied by your podcast What better way to unwind from a stressful week than watching our dogs running through the fields and bushes whilst listening to your witterings. First with Melody, later joined by Pippa. Sadly, having lost Melody a few years ago,

we said goodbye to Pippa this evening, a Friday, and I find myself with no dog to walk tomorrow morning. Pippa was pure joy in dog form, and I find myself listening to your podcast on a Friday evening to console myself. Your podcast has been a source of comfort for many people over the years in far worse situations than mine. but I wanted to thank you for the happiness you brought along with our dogs over many years I couldn't think of another way to pay tribute to Pippa and thank her for 13 years of unqualified love that she has given our whole family

now I've got a photograph of Pippa who is bracken-coloured and the photograph I don't know I'm only doing this because on YouTube you can actually now see the photographs but she's in there amongst the bracken someone's done a Zoom that's a lovely dog and I think only

dog owners will understand that the death of a dog is it's not like a family bereavement but it's sort of pretty close which you've experienced quite a few yeah yeah absolutely I mean we have you know we have a dog and a cat I remember once one of the most endearing things

you ever said was that unlike common law you really like the smell of wet dog oh yes I think it's a fantastic smell I know but you know it's one of the things that it's one of the things that people say I can't say there is yeah absolutely absolutely thank you for that email thank you for sending us that lovely photograph and now everyone has seen a photograph of pipper i would imagine matt will get another dog

i don't know i would expect that's going to be the way of it correspondence at kervynummo.com tell us about a movie that we may wish go to see okay black phone two which is the sequel to the 2021 horror thriller adapted from the short story by joe hill um aka a young son of stephen king he's son of stephen king so directed by Scott Derrickson, who did Exorcism, Emily Rose and Dr. Strange. So the original was set in the late 70s, children in a suburban town go missing. The local legend is of the grabber, played by Ethan Hawke. There is, he has a basement which has a phone in it, which transmits the voices of the kids. I mean, it wasn't groundbreaking, but it was well done.

It didn't cost very much, but it was a big hit. So hence, we now have sequel Blackphone 2. So Scott Derrickson back again, also returning at the kids. key cast members, Ethan Hawke, Mason Thames, Madeline McGraw. So this is set in early 1980s. Finney is trying to deal with the trauma of what happened in the first film. And at the end of the first film, this isn't a spoiler because it's the end of the first film, and you have to know this for the second film to make any sense. The grabber is deceased. Maybe deceased, but still making phone calls. Here's a clip.

Well, Finney. What do you want? It took me a long time, but now I remember. You're dead. Oh, Finney, you of all people know that dead is just a word. Tell me why you're here. Why do you think I'm here?

It's an absolute truth with horror films, isn't it? That dead, yeah, but, you know, and not quite. So, meanwhile, his sister, Gwen, is starting to communicate with scary children in her dreams and in her sleepwalking. She's haunted by visions of these mutilated children. And then the plot takes them out to a Christian camp by the side of a frozen lake. And there's a whole kind of backstory thing going on about their family. Gwen is convinced that this site is really, really important. They have to get to the bottom of what's going on it.

So the first film was very well executed, and it had a fairly straightforward central premise. And when I was reviewing it, I said, well, you know, it is, it does, it is Stephen Kingie in tone, which is kind of perhaps unsurprising. I have to say that this second film, which has been very, very well received by critics, it's a lot less focused. It feels a lot more generically derivative. I mean, at times, it's like a mash-up of kind of,

it's got the themes of Nightmare and Elm Street Dream Warriors. I mean, it's very, very much like Dream Warriors. It's got visual riffs from Invisible Man, Poultergeist, the thing. And arguably, actually, devil's backbone. I think in the apparitions of the children there is definitely an echo of devil's backburn and of course Scott Derrickson is a very literate director

so he would know all this stuff. There's a kind of interesting use of what looks like old film formats in order to distinguish between the dream world and the real world and the way in which the dream world interacts with the real world is done quite well and there's an interestingly woozy score

by Atticus Derrickson and there's a couple of very pointed needle drops like there's a there's a there's a quite smart use of um pink floyd's uh brick in the wall not the single brick in the wall but for the one from the album the main problem i think is this it's an 18 certificate and it's an 18 certificate for um what's there in what's there so strong bloody violence i think the original was was 15 so this is an 18 and it but it does feel very much like a kind of Stranger Things style teen adventure, even though it's got, I mean, as did, you know, Dream Warriors.

And it means that some of the sort of the more extreme elements, the thing, the stuff that's got it in 18th certificate, feel a little bit out of whack with other elements, which are more sort of in keeping with the goonies. I mean, there are a couple of, there are a couple of smart things in the script. There's a couple of good cracks at the hypocrisy of the Christian camp, which, although the film's got a period setting,

actually completely rings true in today's America. I mean, my biggest problem was I was never scared. I thought that some of it was, I think it's well done. I think he was an interesting director. And there was, as I said, there's a kind of, there's an attempt to do something visually interesting. I just felt like the first one had a kind of a straightforward simplicity that this lacks. And I wasn't scared.

I wasn't bored, but I wasn't. scared and I, it, it just, for me, it didn't bite and that's what I need a horror film to do. Can I just ask you about the 18 certificate just because normally pretty, in my opinion, pretty gruesome horror, obviously appropriate, but gets a 15. So what, is it just that it's more relentless or they, they, the shot lingers on the, on the, the horror scenes for, for longer? What is it that makes it an 18 as opposed to a 15? Well, weirdly enough, it is often to, do with whether or not you're dwelling. So, for example, in the BBFC description of violence, it says, it talks about graphic

detail, including mutilated body being stabbed repeatedly, ankle being severed with an axe. Ankle being severed with an axe. If you're looking for a Kingian, a Stephen Kingian moment, he's definitely done that before. In his book, but I don't think, I'm thinking about misery. Yeah, it's a sledgehammer in the film, isn't it? Yeah, and it's slightly more severe in the book. Anyway, we're going to be, unless, now, if you're a subscriber, obviously you're just going to shuffle on through.

But elsewhere, what are we back with in just a moment? We're back in just a moment, I think, with the UK top 10. I can't wait for that. And the laughter lift, which is amazing this week. Now, Mark, if you shopped online, chances are you've bought from a business powered by Shopify. You know that purple? pay button you see at checkout. The one that makes buying so incredibly easy, that's Shopify. And there's a reason so many businesses sell with it. Shopify makes it incredibly easy to start

and run your business. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world, including names like Mattel and Jim Shark to brands just getting started. Shopify has hundreds of beautiful, ready-to-go templates to express your brand style. Tackle anything from inventory to payments, analytics and more, all in one place. And Shopify has built-in marketing and email tools to find and keep new customers. If you want to see fewer carts being abandoned, it's time for you to head over to Shopify. Sign up for your £1 per month trial and start selling today at Shopify.co.com.uk slash take.

Go to Shopify.com.com.uk slash take. Okay, box office top 10 this week. At number 14 is a reissue of Twilight. Hurrah, go and enjoy it again. Yeah. Do you remember going to see that when it first came out? Do you remember? Because you went with Child 2, didn't you? Child 2, because she was the right age. And what I remember is the division in the conversation between critics who were very sniffy and basically didn't get it.

And then everyone else who'd gone and I went, no, actually, the books are a really, really popular. and this movie is going to do really, really well. And some people didn't get it, and some people did. And I think we're on the right side of that argument. Absolutely, absolutely. And I have since then, I have done the Twilight Marathon of doing all the Twilight movies in one day, and I've done it three times in total.

And I love those films. I love them. Corpse Bride, 20th anniversary, is at number 11. Which is just designed to make us feel very, very old. I love Corpse Bride, but I'm horrified by the idea that it's 20 years old. That is really, really, really. scary. The long walk is at number 10. It's number 11 in America. Lots of discussion here about whether or not the long walk is incredibly depressing or a celebration of friendship. We've had a lot of emails from people

who have really seen the positive side in it. And I think that that speaks very well of our listeners. The Bad Guys 2 is at number 9, number 14 in Canada. Still hanging on in there. This is its 12 week in the charts. And I, you know, it's, it is what it is, but 12 weeks in the charts. That is, That's three months, right? That's mad. Good Boy is at number eight. Here's an email from Callum in South London. I was listening to the latest take as I travelled to and from the London Film Festival.

A couple of days before, I had seen there, Good Boy, brackets, 2025. I then heard that you would be reviewing it later in the pod. Blimey, that was fast work by distributors, I thought to myself. Keen to hear what you thought of an interesting horror film in which Stephen Graham and Andrea Riseborough keep a young. man prisoner in their basement. Oh, I thought, as your review of the canine horror film rolled around in take two, I don't think that's the same one I saw.

It turns out there are not one, not two, but three films premiering in 2025 called Good Boy, the third seemingly being a Korean film about crime-fighting athletes. There have also been many other films of the same title in the last few years. Can the good professors, slash, he's a doctor, remember such a glutton films before that are not just called the same thing, but coming out at the same time. And what do producers do in this situation? Presumably, a name change is at least considered. Take it your tongue, up with international cinema at the BFI and down with tariffs on so-called

foreign films, says Callum. And then the redactors written will answer this question in question Schmestians, which is in take two, which feels a little unfair to ask the question. I mean, this is blatant, rampant capitalism to set up a question and then say, but if you want the answer, you're going to have to subscribe. So I am going to subvert the system. Okay, well done. By say, I mean, maybe we can go

into more detail. But in the same way as back in the day, there was a year 85, 86, everyone had a song called The Power of Love. And there were loads and loads, and they were completely different songs. Frankie goes to Hollywood, Jennifer Rush, and Huey Lewis in the news.

And they're all called the Power of Love. And in that, so to give a partial answer to Calum in South London, the most, as far as I can find out, the most popular film title is Broken. There are 34 films that are called Broken. So if you're making a new movie, best avoid that.

Closely followed by Hero and Mother. Okay, we will repeat this answer in slightly more concise form when we get to take two. Number seven in the UK, Night of the Zupocalypse. Yeah, which is, I mean, it seems live the animation's okay.

I mean, I think most interesting for the fact that, you know, Marker for a younger audience, a PG for mild, scary scenes, which is not a phrase you'd ever think you'd hear connected with a Clive Barker film. Number six in the UK, number five in Canada and the country to the south. The conjuring last rights. Number five in the UK, number eight in America, the smashing machine. Which really does reaffirm two things.

Firstly, Dwayne Johnson can act. And secondly, ultimate fighting or mixed martial arts or whatever else they call it as described in this film is absolutely brutal and I never want to see it in real life. Number four is Downton Abbey the grand finale. Toffs on Heat. UK number three is I swear. Which I loved. I thought this was a terrific, really, really glad to see it doing so well. I mean, I think it's, I think it's a, it's such, it's such an uplifting movie and it's, you know, a true story of triumph over adversity, but it's told so well, brilliant performances. I, I just think. think it's one of the films of the year. Simon, who's the 1985 Pontin's National Teenage Pool Champion,

L-T-L-T-L-L-T-E-I-C-R, possible first-time emailer, I can't remember, such as the impact of this show on Simon's Life. I went to see, I swear, at my local world of Cynie last night, and it blew me away. Last week, one battle after another, was my film of the year so far. It's now been replaced. Whereas some films blatantly try to tug at the heartstring, sometimes it works other times not so much. I'm looking at you, a big, bold, beautiful journey.

The reactions I had while watching this were like nothing else I've experienced in the cinema. This film put the impeccably behaved audience in screen four through so many emotions, sadness, shock, joy to name but three. Despite being quite an emotional type, I've never actually been moved to tears in the cinema. Until I saw this amazing movie. Although it's a pipe dream, it would be wonderful

if this film could be shown in schools to appropriately aged students. The world would be a better place if we were all a little more like John Davidson. Love the show, Steve, from Simon. James Swadlow says, just finished a screening of I swear at our local view. What an incredible piece of work. I wept, sobbed, laughed, cried, laughed, then cried again through the entire picture. It's about acceptance and taking a chance and believing in the good of people. what an incredible man John is

what a credible man John is an inspiration for everyone peace soul and rock and roll is James Sinoff I mean I loved it have you seen this yet Simon I have not seen it I guarantee you

I would rarely say this I guarantee you this will be one of your films of the year it is it is you know the thing that we always say about cinema being an empathy machine it's that and it's moving

and at times it's tragic and it's also funny and it's got great. I guarantee you will love it. Speaking of favourite films, UK's number two is the same as America's number two, one battle after another. Which, you know, I think it's terrific. I was having a conversation with somebody and they said, I don't, you know, I liked it and everything, but I sort of lost interest in the last third.

It was like, really? What? In the light, the bit with the chase through the river of hills. Yeah. Because if they'd said in the first third, I was thinking, okay, what are we doing with this? Oh, I thought it was absolutely fantastic. Fantastic, fantastic. If you miss Paul Thomas Anderson, who's on the show a few weeks ago, go back to check out that. Great interview. Great interview.

Number one here, number one over there, Tron, Harris. Tron, Ars, Tron, Ares. Now, so I wasn't here last week, so Tron Ares is the way you're supposed to say it. Is that right? But even though it's got an eye missing. Yeah, no, but I think you were right. I think that the anagram tron arse is what it should now be referred to forever. Edin Romsey, I found the colour palette hard to cope with. The new music from 9-inch nails is a little disappointing in the film incredibly bland

and unwilling to explore any potentially mildly interesting concepts it landed on. One thing I did like was Athena's guide to Jared Leto's acting. During the climactic scene of Act 1, when she in the titular Aries, have tracked down Gretta Lee, who I do love, by the way, we get her perspective as she looks at his face with the Terminator-like info screening showing empathy detected when looking at his blank facial expression. Perhaps this could be a feature throughout the film on the Blu-ray release.

Zach Goheen says, I just watched Tron Ares and I'm feeling confused as to whether it's the same film Mr. Kermode referenced in his review last week. He described Mr. Leto as non-blinking and cast in a perpetual smile throughout the film. This is not accurate to the version I saw. Yes, he had the wide-eyed two-dimensionality one could argue is an actor's choice,

but he isn't at all the smiling, unblinking imbecile that Mark described. And yes, the Depeche Moe bit seems a bit out of place, but I think calling it out as a reference to American Psycho is a stretch. Less cynical fans might enjoy other references like the Akira slide, also Disney's Aladdin, do you trust me, trope. Love your show anyway, says Zach.

Eddie Kershaw says I watched Tron Ares on opening night right after Mark's review went in with trepidation whereas most of what Mark says is true in the movie being loud, bright not much of a plot basically Ares is a version

of a Norton virus protector program and a sensory overload I was never at any time bored although it wasn't necessarily a good movie I can't say I wasn't entertained and it had a thumping soundtrack and then one more Dr Christine Mimner

I think that is I so badly wanted Mark to be wrong about this movie and hoped that my love of the franchise would be enough. It wasn't and I left the cinema 45 minutes in. Sick of the sound of 9-inch nails being dragged down a blackboard accompanied by a light show, never previously seen outside of Guantanamo Bay. After having endured the least exciting light cycle chase possible, the inevitable digitisation of character with no development

left me feeling as much emotion as Jared showed. As dated as the first movie now appears, The relationship between Flynn and Tron as creator and program made a buddy movie with inspiration that completely fell to materialize in this movie. I will try and load this program again at some point in the future, possibly a smaller screen, VGA resolution and 8-bit sound. Keep up the good work, up with the users, down with bloated orange master control program. Obviously, VGA resolution is an analog video display.

Standard normally 640 times 480 pixels, because I checked. Wow. Anyway, that's our number one movie, Tron Harries. Well, I was correct, and I said that it'll be number one next week. Also turns out that despite the fact that it's number one, it has hugely underperformed at the box office so far and is currently not on course to do very well. It is, I think, the worst film of the year

in terms of the amount of money spent, the amount of IP recognition that they had, and the sheer rottenness of the film itself. Just to that thing about the American Psycho reference, I very specifically said, I don't, you know, whether deliberate or accidental, this seems this looks like a riff on it. I mean, I'm sure it is accidental. I mean, the question of whether Jared Leto would have noticed or whether empathy would have been detected and whether any part of his brain went, you know, it's weird. This scene echoes a scene in a film I was

in many, many years ago when I wasn't quite as bad as I am now. The film is awful. The film is absolutely utterly, artistically vacuous and bankrupt. And it did, as indeed I said, I ended my review by saying it'll be number one next week, which it is, but it has underperformed stupendously. So there we go. What's the Depeche Mode bit? So basically, Jared Leto's character does this monologue about why he loves Depeche Mode. And it seems to be, it echoes a very famous scene from American Psycho, in which Christian Bale's character explains to Jared Leto why he loves Huey Lewis in the news before killing him with an axe. Power of love, again, you see, another Huey Lewis.

It's actually hip to be square, but that's the, but yeah, yeah, yeah. I know, but it's a Huey reference. Again, subscribers, we'll shuffle on through here. Elsewhere there'll be some ads, and we'll be back with what precisely? Coming up next, a review of After the Hunt, and our special guest, who is Russell Tovey after this? So this week's guest is Russell Tovey, who has been all over our big and small screens in the UK

for the last 20 years or so, movies and shows from being human and the history boys to years and years and The Good Liar. We're talking today about playing clothes. Mark reviewed it in last week's show, liked it very much, young cop assigned to carry out undercover stings on cruising gay men. Tovey plays Andrew, a target who unexpectedly becomes a fraught love interest. You'll hear my conversation with Russell after this

clip. We have a rule on this detail. No words and no entering the stall. This guy I just directed with my eyes. Police me? What did I do? Why under arrest? Hey, Ma. You've got to introduce somebody new to my nephew here. Okay, so what's your type?

Who are you? I don't really have a type. And that's a clip from Playing Clothes. I'm delighted to say being joined by one of it stars Russell Tovey. Hello, Russell. How are you? I'm good, thanks, Simon. It's a real privilege to be talking to you.

Actor, podcast, presenter, fine art collector. It's given you an extravagant backdrop as well. What is the painting that's behind your head? This is a painting by Doron Langberg, who's a Brooklyn-based young queer artist, who I've been a fan of for many years now, since about 2019, 2018. I've discovered him, and he's a brilliant, brilliant painter, and he's actually painted a portrait of me, which now hangs in the National Portrait Gallery. So I have a real love, and we've got a great friendship.

How about that? You're hanging in the National Portrait Gallery? I am. It's mad, isn't it? I know. That's amazing. So playing clothes is in cinema. I've reviewed a couple of weeks ago.

He really likes the film. So that much has been established. Take us to the world of playing clothes. We're in the 1990s. Explain where we are with this. 1997, upstate New York in a town called Syracuse. There is a mall where there is a bathroom that's being frequented by men seeking the attention of other men. And these men start to be targeted in these entrapment situation.

and arrested and having their lives quietly ruined by the police. My character is someone who is very secretive. He comes along and I am a target and suddenly the man, played by Tom Blythe, who is entrapping me, develops feelings for me. And then this film ricochets off into somewhere unbeknownst to both of these characters and takes them places on their journey. I play a much older man called Andrew. He's a younger man and it's an intergenerational kind of conversation between these two men trying to navigate their way in a world that doesn't seem safe for them.

What's the relevance of the 1990s? So it's a period piece, but it's also very, very familiar to most people who are going to see it. What's the significance of that date? This date's important to Carmen Emie, who's a writer, director first time, who's amazing. That year he said was when he started to police his feelings, where he started to understand. that he was gay himself and what that felt like coming of age and of that kind of notion of knowing that about yourself at this time in history. And it's like only a year before in 1998, we had George Michael was interact in the bathroom

in L.A. He also said it's because that's when the Titanic film came out, which is one of his favorite movies. So he has a lot of nostalgia for 97. But I think it's because of that period in history and it's like post-AIDS where, post-HIV, where there's a world. where people have the knowledge of what's happening, but yet it's still very prevalent, and still an epidemic, and it's still a big worry for that time. And we premiered a couple of weeks ago in New York. And at that time, when we was making this film, we felt like it was a period piece and it felt like a historical document. And literally it came out in the news that police at Penn Station in New York were using apps to entrap men who were using these

bathrooms and 200 people have been arrested, many sent to ICE facilities without trial, and suddenly this film felt like it was incredibly contemporary, even though it's set in 97, and that's kind of terrifying in itself. Yeah, because I think, I mean, in my ignorance, I was thinking that entrapment, the very word sounds like something from Oscar Wild at times. John Gilgud and yes, but you're saying in America, it's happening now. Right now. Is the UK better? I mean, I hope we are, but who knows, everything's so up in the air, and I really hope to God that we have more sort of protection of rights and liberties here for all, like, queer people, but it's, everything's terribly scary, and all we've got to do is hold on to hope that no,

no feeling is finite, no decision is finite, and we're on this curve, and I hope that this curve, we're going into some, we are in darkness, we're going into darker times, but we have to come out the other side, otherwise, what do we do? your character. Tell us a bit more about him. I think it's sort of like in one of the early conversations that you have with Tom Bly's character. I think you describe yourself as an administrator. Is that right? Yeah, he does. Yeah. Well, I don't, there's no, I don't want to give you the reveal of Andrew is the beauty of this film and you go on this journey with Lucas and his discovery of first time he's had these feelings for another man and his discovery of this character

as well. But what was exciting about this for me is that in the 90s, it was a real eye-opening moment for me and self-discovery and working out who I was and now to be had to go back as a early 40s year old man and play the 90s again as someone who knows himself a lot better was a really rewarding thing. But this is a character who's not allowed himself to be the authentic version of himself because he's trapped by a society that's never really made him feel like he could be that person. I want to ask a very specific question and I hope you can remember what the answer is. So the first time that we see your character coming down the escalator in this shopping mail and you're carrying a book. And I lent in and you're kind of quite interesting and it's

marks you out really from the rest of the crowd that you're reading a paperback. And it looks to me like quite an ancient paperback. And I kind of feel as though it's significant. But I lent in and I paused and I couldn't quite see what the book is. Do you remember what the book is and is it significant? That's really interesting. I think it's Jean-Geney. And I think it was the maids, and I think it was an old copy. And I don't know. The significance of that, we did discuss that. That's so nice you've brought that up and you've put me right on the spot.

And I'm trying to rack my brains. But there was a conversation about it. Because you're not on the phone. You're reading it. Well, there's no phones. There's no phones. So I guess that's what we did before our phones is that we'd have a book in our pocket when we're traveling around.

So it's you and it's Tom Blythe, two British actors being American. obviously that's not particularly unusual, but it is a real voter confidence in you. And in Tom, he's something special, isn't he? He has some, I think you said he's got some stardust on him, but, you know, he looks like a big star. Yeah, he's an incredible actor. He's incredibly instinctive. I think that was what is exciting working with him. I see myself as highly instinctive. And when you get a scene partner that feels like you're both connecting on this level, which is indescribable as actors, which is what we, you know, you long for when you find a scene partner.

I found with Tom, and we had the most amazing time. We have very intimate scenes, but what was beautiful about the way we worked and the way that Carmen Emie set up the set for us is that there was these moments just to be, just to be quiet and just to pause and reflect and look at each other, which is so rare sometimes because you're, you know, you're catching up or you're being forced to speed up a scene or get everything in the can so everyone can get onto the next bit of the schedule, because everything's so tight. This was shot in 18 days. It's unbelievable, really. But within those moments we're together, we were able to connect

on that really vulnerable, really generous way that you can with someone else's instinctive. And that was brilliant. Yeah, I think he is a start. He's got, you know, I'm going to go see his film tonight. He's got another film in London Film Festival called Waste Man. He's doing amazing stuff. So I feel very honored to be working with him. You just talk a bit more about the silence in the film because it does seem to be significant the fact that there's a lot done by look and gesture. The silence is working quite hard. I think it's such a privilege as an actor when you're given the opportunity to be quiet.

You know, what we most find fascinating when you watch films I do, and I'm sure most people don't even realize they do, is the reaction. The things that are being said most of the time, there's underlying emotions there that are the antithesis of what's being said, but it's when we're given the opportunity to observe someone unguarded, just simply being or listening, and if that can be captured on Cameron, something that actually is enthralling and captivating,

there's nothing better. You mentioned Carmen Emie, the director, and the fact that it's his debut. Is there a certain nervousness with any actor when you jump into a project with a first-time director? I guess there is, but his script is so strong, hence Tom signed up for it, I signed up for it,

and all the rest of the incredible cast signed up for it. And on set, it felt like everybody was singing from the same hymn sheet. We all wanted to make this the best version it could be for him. And he's so passionate and brilliant and kind and creative that it didn't feel terrifying at any moment. Something that Carmen does, which I've learned and I've actually taken on to every project since is that he plays music into scenes. So during the rehearsal or when we have these moments of staring at each other or just

catching a look or being quiet or just being in each other's company, he will play in this beautiful music, whether it be Philip Glass or whether it be Lana Del Rey, it would surprise us. But that is having music when you're acting is a hack, a quick hack to emotion. You know what, you know, if you're walking around and you have your headphones in and something comes up classical or a movie soundtrack comes up, some John Williams, you're there. You're somewhere else. You've, like, created this other emotion. And that's been so brilliant to take on from him and learn from him. And that's just something that he brought in. And I've been doing this all of my life. And that's the first time that I've experienced that. And that's been him. That's amazing. There's a lot of paranoia in the film. There's a lot of anxiety in the film. And obviously there are limits to what you can say here. But of your character and Tom Blythe's character, who is the more trapped, do you think? That's an interesting question. Because it's this intergenerational discussion between two men. I'm in my 40s. He's in his 20s. He's less trapped. My character is ingrained with shame. My character is in. with all the societal misgivings that he's absorbed and is never going to allow himself.

And as the film reveals itself, you understand where my character is and what he's literally interact himself into. He has no escape. There's no, there's no shift for him. But what's beautiful about this is that their connection is like a gift for Lucas, for Tom Blythe's character to live, to be the version of himself that my character could never be. And it's deeply painful but it's incredibly generous and it's an act it's an act of love but it's tragedy for my character i wonder if many people will get to the end of your film russell and think okay so this is 1997 we're now i wonder what they're doing now you know is is there room for a turn is there do we see these characters again maybe sometime that that's the most beautiful thing with this film is

I've had so many people afterwards come up to me and say, what happened with Andrew? Did this happen? Did that happen? Where's Lucas now? Is he doing this? Is he doing that? And that is the greatest reward you can have as a filmmaker, as someone's a storyteller, is that you ask an audience, this captive community to sit and go on this journey for

an hour and a half. And these characters live within you suddenly, these fictional men, and you care about them. And you want to know that they're okay. and you want to know about their lives. That is the biggest compliment you can ever have for someone that tells stories is that people want to know more. And the fact that you're asking that and other people have said, can there be something that comes back?

I mean, the director himself said it's like he's had such a beautiful, visceral response from people that he'd want to explore where they are in 10, 20 years, where they are now in 2025. And that's amazing. And that's all you can really dream of when you're making stories is a, people connect and want more. Okay, but gut feeling, and obviously you didn't write it. Yeah.

But is Andrew okay now? Gut feeling, is Andrew okay now? I want him to be okay. I reckon he's had his heart pulverized. He has so many rules, my character. He's so boundered. He does not allow himself any opportunity to love truly what he wants to love. And I think, you know, between 97 and 2025, I reckon he's had his heart absolutely pulverized by many, many people.

And he's just hurt himself over and over again. But he can't, no, I don't think he is okay. No, I don't think he's okay. No, I don't. Saying all of that. No, he's not. No, Simon. No, he's not. You can see this movie now, plain clothes starring Russell Tovey and Tom Blyther and a fantastic cast.

Do we see you in the war between the land and the scene next? Is that the Doctor Who thing? That's the Doctor Who. Yeah. When is that? They're working out all the dates now, but very soon, I hope it will be coming out. But I'm incredibly proud of that. New Russell T. Davis, five-part, BBC Disney Plus.

Great. Well, it's a lot to look forward to. So that's on the way. But plain clothes, you don't have to wait for. You can see that right now. Russell Tovey, always a pleasure. Thank you so much. Thank you, so much.

It's a pleasure, too. Russell Tovey, talking about plain clothes. You can go back and hear Mark's review on last week. Well, you could always just reprise your thoughts. I suppose. Well, I liked it very much. I thought it was really interesting that effectively what it did was, on the one hand, it's this emotional romance. And on the other hand, it is nominally police procedural. And as I was saying in my review, I read an interview with the writer-director who talked about what happens when you start to police your emotions, which I thought was just a lovely starting point. I'm a huge fan of Russell Tovey. I had the privilege of interviewing him a little while ago. And it's just, it really a great actor and a really, really nice guy. So, and you can see, and usually we're slightly ahead, but this week we're slightly behind, so you can go and see in cinemas right now.

Correspondence at covenomero.com. Okay, what else is that, Mark? Well, I would suggest you go and see plain clothes instead of after the hunt, which is the new film by Luca Guadonino, who, you know, Biggest Splash, call me by your name, Susperia Challenges, which I made tennis sexy, so well done. and queer, which gave Daniel Crager, you know, Chance to Stretch His Wings. This is written by Nora Garrett, and there's been a lot of press about it because it's got an incredibly star-studied cast, Julia Roberts, Andrew Garfield, Aerole-A-A-Roebeary,

Chloe Savini, Michael Stoolberg. So, Julia Roberts is Alma, who is a Yale philosopher professor who desperately wants tenure. This is what everyone wants tenure. She's married to Michael Stolberg's Fred, who's a psychiatrist. but she seems far closer to Hank, who's played by Andrew Garfield. He was a colleague who also wants tenure, so they're up against each other. They're, you know, good friends. They seem to be more than good friends.

We meet them at a party where Maggie, played by Aywida Biri, is a, and she's a student who idolizes Alma, finds herself on the receiving end of Hank having a go at young people for being too frightened of a fence. Here's a clip. Are you so tight? All your generation, everyone in your generation, you're so tight, good life.

Thank you. Perfect. Exemplar. We're scared of saying the wrong thing, or, uh, offending someone. When did it, when did offending someone become the preeminent cardinal sin? I mean, I don't have a date exactly, but maybe it's around the same time

your generation started making sweeping generalizations about ours. Are you scared that we're gonna think less of you? If it isn't perfect? What, whatever shame? you have around your self-expression, it is false. He's so edgy. He's so edgy. He's got all these edgy ideas.

Anyway, so they leave the party together, and the next morning, she comes to Alma, claiming in weirdly vague terms to have been assaulted by him. So should Alma believe her, should she stand by a friend, who is also, as we know, a rival for tenure? Is Maggie infatuated with Alma? Is she making up the claim? about Hank is there something in Alma's past that might cloud her judgment of this kind of

issue on a personal level. There's a whole thing going on about whether a thesis is actually any good or whether it's plagiarized. And the film has this attitude of like, oh, we know, we're asking interesting questions about the, you know, the gray areas of consent and coercion in this, in this, you know, cancel culture and a time in which, you know, mob morality can blah blah blah blah blah blah and okay that sounds interesting but in fact it's the film swings between being oblique and irritating and actually predominantly just plain clunky so there's one plot point that revolves around maggie finding a secret envelope whilst looking for something in alma's loo which is the most control i mean it's a device that is so unbelievable that

it's incomprehensible that it ever got past script stage. There's another thing about, there's an illness which keeps, it's very much a movie illness, which at key moments where they can't figure out how to end a scene, suddenly the illness will take over and then they'll wake up in hospital. There's another thing about the fact that Maggie is black and gay

and dating a non-binary student and the daughter of one of the university's biggest donors, which is a contrivance that seriously somebody should have got, I'm sorry, you're going to have two of those because of the point that you're trying to make a... Just sorry, no. The other thing is that when the allegations are first discussed, and there's the whole thing about it,

the conversation that is had at no point does it seem to tally with what would actually happen if that conversation was... Now, look, ambiguity is one thing. And I understand that the film believes that it exists in the... this ambiguous world in which it's asking difficult questions. Bad storytelling, however, is unforgivable. I mean, the exposition of this film is so self-consciously oblique that you're like 20 minutes into it.

And before you figure out whether or not Julia Roberts' character is married to Fred because the performance that Fred is doing appears to be from another film entirely. And you think, sorry, what's, and again, you know, oh yeah, fine, well, you know, So we're trying to confound expectations. No, you're not. What you're doing is you're just doing it really badly. And Michael Storbaugh's performance is unforgivable. I mean, absolutely unforgivable.

Somebody should have, it's like Johnny Depp in Pirates of the Caribbean. Somebody just should have gone in and said, no, absolutely not. Chloe Savini, as the student liaison officer, who gets to do this speech about, you know, it's got really hard for me to listen to the kids nowadays because, you know, they've got everything. And yet the first injustice that happens. to them, they think that the world revolves around them. And the film wants you to think that what it's doing is, like I said, I'm picking this, oh, these difficult issues in this strange time and everything's very unclear. It's really, and it's really funny because when I was

watching it, I was thinking, this is boring and it's badly acted and the exposition isn't very good. And the more I've thought about it since seeing it, the more I've gone from being, this is a film I don't like to, this is a film which I actively disliked, this is a film which actually really, really annoys me. And then I started, I decided to do some reading about it. And it's produced by Brian Grazer, who, you know, produced a bunch of Ron Howard things. And I didn't know this, but Grazer voted for Trump in 2024 and said of this film, before this project existed, I was very much in the anti-woke category.

It just got too extreme. And this movie shows the damage of that by dealing with false. accusations on the Yale campus. So any ambiguity that's in the film, there's no ambiguity in that. And I read that in an article, which is an article that was basically lambasting the film for having retrograde politics. I think the problem with it is this. You could do an analysis of it that said, you know, it's politics of this, that and the other. I just think it's annoying. I think it's badly made. I think it's smug, self-satisfied, spending time in the company of a bunch of characters that I never believed in for one minute, doing really irritating things,

falling into that category of American films about academia that have the kind of seminars that never happen, the kind of classroom discussions that never happen, the kind of interactions that never happen outside of movies in which, as I said before, illnesses are absolutely movie illnesses. The score is by Trent Reznor and Atticus Ross, with whom I'm a bit cross at the moment anyway because of their, you know, production of Tron ass. The score here is really overbearingly quirkily odd in a way that's really annoying and he's just kind of doing the thing about the thing like, look, look, we're doing a weird unsettling score because these are weird unsettling times. And then, every now and then, you get this motif of a ticking clock,

which appears to be there just because somebody thought there's no tension in this. We'd better put the sound of a ticking clock in there because otherwise it's not going to work. Way too long. And a coda at the end of it that is so fatuous, it really should have hit the, you know,

the cutting room floor. There was a film that I reviewed a while ago called Sorry Baby, which does all of this for a fraction of the cost and in half the time. Yeah, like I said, I've gone from thinking,

I've gone from thinking, I don't like this, to thinking I actively dislike this, to thinking the more I think about it, the more irritating I find it. It is, and believe me, I've said this before, I know the irony of me saying this. It is the smuggest thing I have seen all year. Wow.

I quite like it when you get irritated by a film, though. It's always fun for the rest of us. Anyway, so after the hunt, we might not bother with that one then. Yeah, yeah. No, just go and see plain clothes. Go and see playing clothes. It's so much better. And cost a fraction.

It's the ads in a minute mark, which, as you know, is the usual phrase that tease you up for your favorite part of the podcast because we step once again into our lift de laughter now there's an email here it's getting its own correspondence from Michael in Kiel in Germany just to prove that Germans have no sense of humour

the set up for the laughter lift joke about downloading Wikipedia doesn't make any sense because it is completely legal to do so thank you for your attention anyway okay so was that last It was something I forgot. It was last week, yes. It was last week.

Anyway, hey, Mark. Hey, Halloween soon. Halloween soon. Halloween is soon. I said to the good lady ceramicist tearing doors yesterday, there's only one thing that scares me during Halloween.

She said, which is? I said, exactly. Hey. Gives me the shivers. I quite like that. That's good. Did I ever, did I ever, there's a little contrived sentence coming up?

Did I ever tell you about that time I was in America and went pistol, shopping at a dinosaur convention because I bought two from a T-Rex. He was my small arms dealer. Thank you very much indeed. That's a two Ronnie's classic that one

I think. That's very good. Also, Mark, how are you on your patron saints? I'm all right. Go on. Do you know who the patron saint of copying people in on emails is? No. You're right.

St. Francis. of Assisi. Again, the two Ronnies wouldn't have done that one because no one was copying anyone on anything back in the day. Some first-class material. Anyway, still to come, Mark will be doing this material. Oh, still to come.

Sorry, Mark, quick have a look at this room. What's coming up next? After the Laughter Live, blah, blah, blah. Everything's blanked out. Roofman and Frankenstein? Roofman and Frankenstein. Thank you for telling me that. I might as well just do this myself.

Roofman and Frankenstein next. With Amex Platinum, access to exclusive Amex presale tickets can score you a spot trackside. So being a fan for life turns into the trip of a lifetime. That's the powerful backing of Amex. Pre-sale tickets for future events subject to availability and varied by race. Turns and conditions apply. Learn more at amex.ca. This episode is brought to you by Peloton.

A new era of fitness is here. Introducing the new Peloton Cross Training Tread Plus, powered by Peloton. iq built for breakthroughs with personalized workout plans real-time insights and endless ways to move lift with confidence while peloton IQ counts reps corrects form and tracks your progress let yourself run lift flow and go explore the new peloton cross-training tread plus at one peloton Okay, more reviews in just a moment, but now it's good that we're doing these again and you're getting the idea. So let's have a quick what's on. First of all, from Louise.

Hi Mark and Simon. Louise Pankhurst back with London's Home Movie Day. This year, it's Saturday the 25th of October, held at the cinema museum in Kennington. It's a free event, family friendly. And for anybody who has Cinefilms still hiding in their lofts or under their floorboard, so that's Super 8, Standard 8, 9.5 or 16 mil, bring them along to the day. Our experts will look them over, check them, put leader on them, check their perforations, and if they're all okay, we'll project them.

And at 1 o'clock, we'll have a special lunchtime screening from the archives of the Straight 8 filmmaking club, including an early Edgarite. Do come along, 10.30 till 4 at the Cinema Museum Saturday the 25th of October. See you then. Louise, thank you very much. Next time, a couple of inches further back from the mic. That would be great. And top broadcasting tips from Simon. The next one will, it says here and here's Andy, but it'll probably start with him going, Hi, Simon and Mark, I'm Andy. So in which case, there's no point in me saying anything. So just play the tape. Okay.

Hi, Simon and Mark. It's Andy again. from Dead and Sudbury. Our three-day horror film festival returns to the key theatre in Sudbury Suffolk for its ninth edition on the 17th to the 19th of October. New and classic horror movies, shorts, director and cast Q&A's,

merchandise, and much more. Everything you need to know is at dead and sudburyd.com. What effect was that you had on your voice? That was the most astonishing. You sound like you're in a cupboard and we were all in the cupboard with you.

That was astonishing. Very good, thank you. I'm really impressed that at the end of these, what you're doing is not reviewing the events. You know, that is an amazing thing with the films and the cinema museum and, you know, checking your perforations. But what you're doing is literally a masterclass in broadcasting.

Yes. That's what I do. So I'm only qualified to talk about that, really. Anyway, thanks very much for that. So you can send yours to correspondence, Obviously just send in any old quality, that's fine, and we'll just critique it and we'll go along for the ride. Pat, who's a colonial commoner, says with regard to altitude related as well as other flavours of lacrimosity syndrome, see previous years of this show, my fellow church members may find a recent medium article rather interesting.

It addresses why we cry at the movies more than in real life. It started with Mufasa the Lion King, a tough friend of the author, Mr. Anx, stoic in real life, teared up at Mufasa's death, despite staying emotionally dry during a recent personal conflict. That contrast sparked a deeper question for him. Why do we feel so deeply for fictional characters, yet struggle to process our own pain? The answer lies in neuroscience. When we engage with stories, our brains simulate the emotions of the characters, a phenomenon called empathetic transportation.

We're getting very Dan Brown at this point. We are. As the author puts it, movies give you permission to feel without needing to fix anything. I think that's a really interesting idea. Movies give you permission to feel without needing to fix anything.

In fiction, we're safe. Our amygdala lights up, Mrs. And there's no real... My amygdala hasn't lit up for a long time. But there's no real threat. Sorry, a pat, we're getting off the topic. So we allow ourselves to feel, in real life, we switch to survival mode.

Emotions get shelved while we problem solve. The takeaway, well, you're not emotionally broken. You're emotionally cautious. And sometimes fictionalizing your own experiences, writing them like a scene, giving the music, atmosphere, and dialogue can help unlock what's been bottled up. So next time a movie makes you cry, remember it's not just the story, it's your story too.

And it deserves space, grace, and maybe even a few tears. And there's a link to that. We'll put a link which Pat has provided, which we'll put in our show notes. More discussion of better terms than tear jerker to use for films that make you cry will be in take two. Down with the,

end up with the as required, says Pat. I just think that's quite interesting as to why you might cry in a movie and not cry in real life. Yeah. I just thought it was amazing that you made the gag about my invictal hasn't. I've been listening to the.

the new Dan Brown book, and it's full of neuroscience. Is it? Okay. Empathetic transportation. Never heard it called that before. And all that kind of stuff. So, Pat, thank you very much indeed. Correspondence to co-Moeuvre.com. Okay, roofman, isn't it?

Okay, so Roofman, which is the new film by Derek Cian, France, who's the director of Blue Valentine, Place Beyond the Pines, Sound of Metal. This is co-written with a cut gun. This is based on the true story. Now, I didn't know this story, but this is based on the true story of Jeffrey Manchester, who was a notorious spree robber, who earned the nickname Roofman, because his M.O. was to cut through the roof of buildings, specifically McDonald's in the late 90s. And he'd hide in the toilets. And then when the shift workers arrived, he'd burst out, take the money from the safe, and then put them in the refrigerator, you know, the cooling thing, and then rob the cash registers. But do you remember that thing, alias Smith and Jones?

And there was the thing about, you know, but in all the banks and trains they robbed, they never shot anyone. And this made our Latter-day Robin Hoods very popular with everyone. Hannibal Hayes and Kid Curry. Hannibal Hayes and Kid Curry, yeah, fine. So he sort of had this because we'd get him to, but would make sure they had coats because he didn't want them to be cold. He was then caught, imprisoned, and then escaped,

and after escaping, hold up in a Toys R Us store where he effectively set up home behind one of the walls without anyone knowing. Now, none of this is a plot spoiler. Firstly, because it was a big news story, although I didn't know it. Secondly, because it all happens very early on in the film. And thirdly, it's all on the poster because the poster says he robbed 45 McDonald's, escaped from prison, lived in Toys R Us for six months. And that's not even the craziest part.

Here's a clip. I'm not a bad guy. Good morning, team. I just made some bad choices. Police! You gotta help me, man. You sound crazy. Find a safe place to hide for a few months.

I would like to introduce you to someone. Would you like to go out with me? Yes, I would very much, really, very much like to go out on a date with you. Police believe the roof man may still be in the area. What the f! Oh my God! The unmistakably likable voice of Channing Tatum, and you get from that, the sort of the tone of the film. So the craziest part is that having set himself up in Toys R Us,

he then manages to find himself as part of the local church community and getting involved in a relationship with a woman who works at Toys R Us, but of course doesn't know that he's living there, played here by Kirsten Dunst. And then the story becomes even more unlikely. we have a, there's a, there's a whole thing with the, with the church and the, the pastor at the church is played by Ben Mendelssohn, playing completely against type as this kind of really nice, warm-hearted pastor. Anyway, the ensemble cast includes Juno Temple, the Keith Stanfield, Tony Revelore, and the story is, it's intriguing. As I said, I didn't know it. Did you know the story of Jeffrey Manchester, the roof man?

I did not. No, okay. Well, it is apparently, I mean, after I'd seen the film, I went and looked up the actual story on Wiki. And the film is pretty close to what happened in real life. It is, I have to say, the perfect vehicle for Channing Tatum, because the real life, Jeffrey Manchester, it was an accomplished liar and con man, but it's clear from the real life testimony, which happened which you see at the end of the film, because they've got news footage at the end of the film of the real life thing,

that people found him really charming. And the thing about Channing Tatum is he's got charm to spare when it comes to being on screen. I mean, he is one of the most likable screen presences. And as a result of that, you end up rooting for this guy who is a conman and a liar and a cheat, despite the fact that what he's doing is irresponsible and indeed abusive, but he's kind of doing it in this way that sort of somehow seems to make emotional sense. Now, it really helps that Kirsten Dunst, character is completely believable as this single mum who sort of falls for this guy's charms.

Because you believe in her and you believe in her reaction to him, you sort of piggyback onto that. And her character is, you know, a really solidly good character without ever being two-dimensional. And I think, like I said, because she believes in him, we believe in him. There's a great performance too by Peter Dinklage as the Toys Are Us boss. who tells his workers that if the public have a good Christmas, we have a good Christmas. And then keeps reminding them that 90% of the annual takings are happening at Christmas. So, no, you can't have any time off. He's very convincing as this kind of bureaucratic bullying boss.

The score is by Christopher Bear, who, with his counterpart in Grizzly Bear, did past lives. And we talked about the score for Passover. I really enjoyed this. I thought it was, I mean, it works because you do, you are sort of. of charmed by this central character. As I said, he was a pathological liar, a very good liar, and a con man and somebody who, despite everything that they're doing, because of the way that Channing Tatum is playing the character, you kind of go, yeah, I'll go with it.

And I think that clip that we played you there is very kind of tonally correct in terms of the movie, but it does have depth, and it has that depth because of Kirsten Dunst. Just ahead of Frankenstein, an email from Simon, who says, Dear Stockard, Channing Tatum O'Neill and George Harrison Ford Prefect, I agree with Mark, which is always a promising start to an email, I agree with Mark that a 14-year age gap is nothing to comment on. More interesting, perhaps, is that the correspondent who raised this posed the question of why we never see an older woman, younger man pairing in films,

which we do. But not as much. I reckon that among the reasons is that what I think of as the most unknown film with the biggest stars ever, I have never heard this movie discussed or mentioned on the show, nor by friends, nor even teased on streaming, and they'll showcase any old horse. And yet it stars, Michelle Pfeiffer, Paul Rudd, Sir Sharonan,

Graham Norton, in quite a substantial role, David Mitchell, Olivia Coleman, Tracy Ullman, Fred Willard, Steve Pemberton, McKenzie Crook, and Henry Winkler. Is it ringing any bells yet, Mark? No. The movie is called I Could Never Be Your Woman from 2007. The surprisingly large amount of British and Irish comic talent may be something to do with it was substantially made in the UK

for tax reasons. The plot is that Michelle Pfeiffer is 45 and Paul Rudd is 20-something and she feels bad about it. That's it. It's awful. Writer-director, Amy Heckling, based it on her own experiences and you know what? She should have written a poem.

It went straight to DVD and its death so soon after the poor reception to that, Uma Thurman thing, Prime. He's 23, she's 37. They're both in there. Prime. Likely killed the older woman age gap micro-genre Stone Dead. But I cannot think of any other movie with that bigger cast that is so little mentioned. The most interesting thing about it is the title, and even that's not original. It's a reference to the 1997 UK number one hit by Whitetown. I'm sure other correspondents might have their own suggestions, but in terms of A-list talent in a movie that had all the impact of a soap bubble hitting a Sherman I'd say it's pretty hard to stop.

So that's an interesting new category. I had never heard of that film. No, I mean... Did you review it? I have no memory of reviewing it at all. I mean, if it went straight to video, as they said, then if it wasn't in theatre, then I wouldn't have done. I mean, Amy heckling's really interesting.

I mean, you know, I mean, clueless is a modern classic. But no, I'm just looking at the wiki page for this, and you're right, all those people are indeed in it. And I do not believe that I have seen it. The budget was only 24 million though. I say only 24 million. If you have seen it, we'd like to know about it. And also, it's an interesting new category.

Staggering cast. And it's not that it's a, it doesn't have to be a bad film. It's just that it's just completely disappeared, that no one actually talks about it. It's not like a standing joke even. It's not given as an example of something that completely flopped. It's just a movie that no one has heard of. So anyway, correspondence at curbinamere.com. Simon, thank you very much indeed. Okay, well, it looks like Frankenstein time.

Okay, Frankenstein, which is the new film from Guillermo del Toro, who's the Mexican genius behind Kronos, Pans, Labyrinth, Hellboy, shape of water. I mean, if you're a regular listener, you'll know how much I love Guillermo stuff. So this is adapted from Mary Shelley's much adapted Gothic novel, which was famously published originally without her name. And the film, as all adaptations have done, takes several liberties. with the text, and as much as that it changes key things in the text. But I think it is strangely faithful to the tone of the source. The central theme of the story is, you know, a scientist playing God, creating life, which he then abandons in horror, leaving this creature who is bereft and becomes bent on vengeance, but more importantly, is lonely and wretched and in need of companionship.

And the oft-repeated trope is that people confuse Frankenstein. Like if you see somebody with a square head and they think, oh, that's Frankenstein. No, that's not Frankenstein. That's the creature. Frankenstein is the creator. So as with the source, you get shifting points of view. So this opens with Captain of the Ship, en route to the North Pole, encountering a bedraggled Victor, played by Oscar Isaac,

who is locked in this kind of endless pursuit with his own creation, played by Jacob Allardy, across the Arctic ice. And then Victor then tells his story, the story of how his beloved mother died when he was young, how he became obsessed with overcoming death, how he breathed life into reanimated body parts, and then became, as I said, locked in this ongoing battle with his nemesis. And then the film then changes perspective to the creature's story. The creature says, okay, he's told his story, this is my story, and now we see the events. said, well, this is all kind of inherent in the Shelley, from the point of view of the poor wretch,

who is created and is then abused by the egomaniacal victor cast out into a hostile world, denied friendship or companionship, which is the thing that he needs. Here's a clip. My maker taught his tale. And I... I'll tell you mine. I remember pieces. Memories of different men.

Then I saw it. Your name. Victor Frankenstein That's Frankenstein That's Frankenstein So but as I said So basically using kind of key elements from the book

But at the same time taking those elements and making them very, very Guillermo So this has been going on for a very long time The creature role was originally earmarked for Doug Jones, then I think Benedict Cumberbatch, who played both the creature and creator in that Danny Boyle stage version. And then Andrew Garfield and now Jacob Elordy, because the project, when I first met Giammo back in the 90s, he was talking about doing Frankenstein.

Other key roles in the version, which is finally made to the screen, Mia Gough, as the fiancé of Victor's brother William. dance as Victor's bullying father. Christopher Volz as Heinrich Hollander, who's this arms dealer, who is the uncle to Elizabeth and also the benefactor of Victor. He's got very, very personal reasons for wanting Victor to overcome death.

So Guillermo has basically been circling this story, as I said for decades. I mean, he cites as inspirational James Wales Frankenstein and bride of Frankenstein. He said that Christopher Lee really nailed the idea, of the emptiness of the creature, famously said that Frank Darabont's script, Frank Darabont wrote the original script for Kenneth Branagh's Frankenstein, and Frank Darabond described that as the best script I ever wrote and the worst film I ever saw. And Guillermo had read Frank Darabond's

script, which is online. I mean, it's become quite celebrated now and described it as pretty much perfect. And I met Guillermo just recently and said that he said that Frank Darabont had seen this and there is clearly a kind of a thematic comparison between what Guillermo has done with this and what Frank Darabont was trying to do with his script. I mean, the thing is, there was an, there was an interview with Frank Darabon in which he said that his script for Frankenstein, it was to do with whispers and nuances, but by the time it got to the screen, it was like these overblown operatics. This version doesn't skimp on operatics. I mean, there are plenty of big set pieces, boats in ice, vast towers, you know, lightning, echoes in tone of

Francis Ford Copeland's Dracula, Francis Ford Copeland's Bram Stoker's Dracula, to give it its correct title. And in fact, I think when they first showed footage from this, I think they preview screened it with some of the music from Copel as Dracula. But the key thing is that for all the showy theatrics of which there are plenty, the key tone is melancholia and loneliness. And the film's got this epic visual scale, but it focuses very specifically on the misery and isolation of the character. And the creature being driven mad by being abandoned by their father, which is a dynamic which is set up very clearly in the relationship between Charles Dance's father and Oscar Isaac's victim. This is very much about the sins of the father coming

back to Haunt. But the other thing that's in there, I think this is really important, is this version has a redemptive arc to it. And there is a moment in the film in which Victor refers to the ninth configuration. Okay. Now, this is a shout-out to a movie which I love, which Paul Thomas Anderson loves, which Guillermo del Toro loves, and which was written and directed by William Peter Blatti, and has been seen by almost nobody else. And it is an absolute, brilliant movie, basically, which is like an existential theological thriller about the argument for the existence or non-existence of God. And it is absolutely about redemption. And of course, Guillermo del Toro has always had this thing that was been brought up with that Catholic

sense of guilt and redemption. And when he flags the ninth configuration in this, I mean, my heart leapt a little bit because it's like, oh, he just said the ninth configuration. It's not a throwaway thing, though. It's flagging up that what's happening in Guillermo's retelling of this story is that there is a redemptive arc in it. I mean, to me, that was kind of the lighthouse in the middle of the fog, that this is the heart of the film. I mean, I think as a piece of filmmaking, it is as accomplished as anything you'd expect from Guillermo del Toro. I mean, everyone has, everyone has probably seen a Guillermo del Toro film. We know that he is, he knows how to stage a good story. And he's always got this thing about, you know,

the sympathy with monsters, in this case, with the creature. And there's been, Lots of praise for the lead performances here. I think a particular shoutout is due to Mia Gough, who is the most mesmerizing screen presence. I mean, just really, really strange and fantastic costume design, these kind of Shirley Russell-esque costumes, I think, I think Kate Hawley is a costume designer.

Christoph Waltz kind of anchoring the whole thing in economics and making it all kind of very down to earth. I mean, I am predisposed to like Guillermo's work, but there is, he said himself, that he was worried about Frankenstein because in a way when you finally do the thing that you've been wanting to do

all the time that's it once you've done it you've done it but I think this was worth waiting for I think it's emotional and I think it for all the bigness

for all the grandeur for all the Gothic visuals and the set pieces and the costume design and the way it looks it is essentially what Shelley story is about, which is two sides of this story, two characters locked in this thing,

the creator and the creation. And it is about, you know, when God abandons their creature, what does that leave the creature to do? And, you know, the modern Prometheus aspect of it is one thing, but it's just, it is, what happens when you create something and then turn your back on it. And I think it's a really fine adaptation. It's not definitive because there is no definitive screen adaptation of Frankenstein because that novel can be, because the novel is so complex and there's so much going on in it. But I think that what Guillermo has done is to take the right elements, which are often elements that are not used in the movies, and make them his own. One frame back in take two is tip top Frankenstein movies of all time. So that will

pick-up from Mark's essential, unmissable review of the Guillermo del Toro movie correspondence at carbon-a-meda.com just had a very weird experience, Mark. I think I've told you before that the other side of that wall is where Child 3 lives. Yes, basically. I think he's left now, but he could clearly hear some of the conversation that we were having. Okay. So the email about the movie called I Could Never Be Your Woman from 2007, the Amy Heckling movie, he sent me this, okay? My contribution is the following conversation between Statler and Waldorf, both listening to that listener email.

Amy Heckling, so will I if I see that movie. Anyway, so there you go. That's a kind of instant gang. on what we're doing. Okay, so that is the end of take one. This has been a Sony Music Entertainment production. This week's team, Jen, Eric, Josh and Heather. The producer was Gem, the redacted was Paul.

And if, that's Simon Paul to you. And if you're not following the pod already, please do so wherever you get your podcast. Don't forget you can now watch every new episode on our YouTube channel. The Christmas show, don't forget, you want tickets for that. It's www. fain.comode-day. Mark, what is your film of the week?

Well, unsurprisingly, it's Guillermo del Torres Frankenstein. Thank you very much, indeed, for listening. Take two will have landed alongside this one for subscribers. Go on. You know you want to. Arc Raiders, a multiplayer extraction adventure video game set in a lethal yet vibrant future earth. As a raider scavenging the remnants of a derelict world, you settle into an underground settlement,

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