Kermode & Mayo’s Take - Is BUGONIA out of this world? + Ruth Wilson on DOWN CEMETERY ROAD

Episode Date: October 30, 2025

Some exciting news — The Take is now on Patreon: www.patreon.com/kermodeandmayo. Become a Vanguardista or an Ultra Vanguardista to get video episodes of Take Two every week, plus member‑only chat rooms, polls and submissions to influence the show, behind‑the‑scenes photos and videos, the monthly Redactor’s Roundup newsletter, and access to a new fortnightly LIVE show — a raucous, unfiltered lunchtime special with the Good Doctors, new features, and live chat so you can heckle, vote, and have your questions read out in real time. Another top Take this week where the Good Doctors are giving you the lowdown on all the most enticing movies hitting cinema screens—and the small screen too, with our very special guest Ruth Wilson. She’ll be chatting to Simon about Down Cemetery Road — the new TV thriller based on Slow Horses author Mick Herron’s novel, where she plays the ordinary woman pulled into a mystery involving a huge explosion, a missing child, and a shady coverup. She unpacks her unlikely sleuth character, Sarah Trafford, the show’s tonal twist on TV crime, and hunting for clues alongside Emma Thompson’s gutsy gumshoe Zoe Boehm. Mark reviews it too—along with Relay — another taut thriller starring Riz Ahmed as a mysterious fixer who cuts deals through an anonymous phone service between his clients and the dodgy corporations they take on. And Bugonia—Yorgos Lanthimos’ latest oddity that asks whether Emma Stone might actually be an extraterrestrial...well, haven’t you wondered? All that plus the Box office Top 10, the ever- hilarious Laughter Lift, and top correspondence from you lot—keep it coming please! AND Don’t miss our upcoming LIVE Christmas Extravaganza at London’s Prince Edward Theatre on 7th December. Tickets here: fane.co.uk/kermode-mayo Timecodes (for Vanguardistas listening ad-free) Relay Review: 10:44 BO10: 19:14 Ruth Wilson Interview: 36:04 Down Cemetery Road Review: 49:58 Laughter Lift: 58:30 Bugonia: 1:05:03 You can contact the show by emailing [e-mail] or you can find us on social media, @KermodeandMayo Please take our survey and help shape the future of our show: https://www.kermodeandmayo.com/survey EXCLUSIVE NordVPN Deal ➼ https://nordvpn.com/take Try it risk-free now with a 30-day money-back guarantee! A Sony Music Entertainment production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts and follow us @sonypodcasts To advertise on this show contact: [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This episode is brought to you by Mooby, a curated streaming service dedicated to elevating great cinema. Mubi is the place to discover ambitious films by visionary filmmakers, all carefully handpicked. So you can explore the best of cinema streaming anytime, anywhere. Mark, what have Mooby got up their sleeves for us this October? Well, Simon, is a very exciting new release, The Mastermind, which is now in UK Cinemas. It's the new film from Kelly Reichard, the brilliant director of Meeks Cutoff, Night Moves, and First Cow for which we interviewed Toby Jones. The film went down a storm in Cannes earlier this year.

It stars Josh O'Connor, of course, another Kermudemeyer favorite, alongside Alana Haim, Gabi Hoffman, Hope Davis and Bill Camp. Visit mooby.com slash mastermind for showtimes and tickets. And to stream great films at home, you can try Mooby-free for 30 days at Mooby.com slash Kermud and Mayo. That's M-U-B-I-D-Moe for a whole month of great cinema for free. Now Mark, if you've shopped online, chances are you've bought from a business powered by Shopify. You know that purple, shop pay button you see at checkout.

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Are you in prison? It looks as though you're in prison. No, no, I'm in the same place that I usually am, but I haven't got the face on the wall because I'm just having a little bit of work done on it in order to... But the effect is that you've been banged up basically. Bang to write? Yeah, absolutely. There's a hint of a shelf

in the top right, but without the guitar that is no, it's all rock and roll. I feel as though you're in Wormwood Scrubs. It is a weird thing for those who are subscribing to Take 2. In Take 2, I will tell you about a film in which, because of my intimate knowledge of prisons, I actually recognised the prison that they were filming in, because I'd spend time in it.

Right. Had you spent time in it professionally, or had you, I mean, I'm slightly shocked. Are you, are you saying that you've done a stretch? Norman Stanley Fletcher style. An habitual criminal who accepts imprisonment as an occupational hazard. That's very good. That's very good. What's odd about that opening sequence? to porridge for younger subscribers is that because Ronnie Barker does that voice,

it's like, you know, could they not have found a judgey type person, like a Peter Cook, to do the judge at the start of the show? Because having Ronnie Barker be the judge and then he's the guy in the cell, I just thought, anyway. But it's kind of nice, isn't it? Because it's kind of, there's a circularity to it. He's imprisoned by himself. Or maybe it was just cheaper.

I think he's imprisoned because he's done crimes. Quiet Night In is the best name for an episode Which is episode one, I think, of the first series And that's how they get through it Is they just think, should we have a quiet night in? Yeah, all right, yeah. It was also up there with the marvellous thing In which they get, they're reading the newspaper

And he says, what's my horoscope? He says, you're going on a long journey. All right, Mr. Mackay. Well, well, it is one of the great sitcoms, isn't it? And because it's in prison, it doesn't really date. apart from Ronnie Barker's obsession with page three of the sun. Yes, that's right.

That's the only bit that dates. And the members of Pans people. And that fantastic bit when Fulton McI says, what is it with this prison, Fletcher? Ler says very high criminal elements. Very good. Why, you can recite hundreds of lines from porridge, any very, very quotable.

It is. So here we are. And we've got to take one here. There's a take two on the way. And we're going to do our first. live show later. Yes. Well, it's not our first live show. I mean, we did live shows back in a previous incarnation, but it's our first live show as take, which I'm, I'm quite excited about. What if things go wrong or you curse? But you mean if I curse? You've kind of created this

impression in the listener's ears that I am just an effing and a jessin and a cussing and a fussing. You're a, they're a potty mouth film critic. Am I? Yeah. Really? Do you think I swear lot. When we're not live, I would say. But I never think of myself like that. Yeah, well, maybe I'm completely wrong. I'll take that on advisory. You're looking very tip top, by the way, considering you're serving a stretch. It's just going to be a theme, is it? Well, I think so. What are we, what are we, yeah, what's going on? What's happening later? What are you talking about? Some very interesting reviews. We have a review of Relay, which is the new film with Riz Ahmed. We have Borgonia, which is the Yorgos Lanthimos film, re-teamed again with Emma Stone, and very high on

the bonkers scale. And we have Down Cemetery Road, which is TV series adapted from, I think, first novel by Mick Heron, for which we have our very special guest. Yes, it's the slightly terrifying Mrs. Coulter, which is how I think of Ruth Wilson, of course. is going to be with this. I did find Mrs. Coulter, who's one of the scariest characters, certainly, that I've ever read. And then she plays, I think Ruth Wilson plays it in the Jack Thorn-written TV adaptation. And it's absolutely fantastic of his dark materials. Anyway, so that's Ruth Wilson coming up in this here take.

And what are we reviewing later in Take 2? In Take 2, we have Header, which is an updating of Header Garbler, which he's coming to streaming services this week. has been in cinemas in the last week. And also Shelby Oaks, which is an interesting low-budget horror film, which has had a long progress to the screen. So, yeah, but doing both of those two. Plus all the extra stuff, including details of the best and worst films on TV over the weekend. Further discussion of the most absurdist black comedies in one frame back. And in question, Schmestians, one of the questions that we have is, are there films which we have seen and

hated because it didn't fit our politics, but later re-watched and loved. Okay, plenty to think about. Also, let's remind you that full video episodes are now available on YouTube, as well as the reviews and interviews. So head over and subscribe and in Take Ultra. This is a new, a new fangled thing, which was live on Patreon yesterday, if you're listening on Thursday, or two days ago, if you're listening on Friday and so on. But now it sits forever on our Patreon page.

That's where it is. It says you, a quick reminder of the good stuff available over there. Polls and submissions. Behind the scenes, photos and videos, member only chats, which still sounds slightly rude. Can I say I uploaded some very exciting behind the scenes photos of the Dodge Brothers playing in Cambridge. I hope they found their way to the thing.

I sent them to the redactor. To what extent are we allowed to just do gratuitous self-promotion? Well, I haven't been stopped. How's your book doing? Well, I'm writing, I'm sort of two-thirds into a new one. maybe I could do some live action of, you know, me writing the opening page of Thomas Hardy like in Monty Python, you know. It's, it's, oh no, he's crossed it out. It's got, no, it's a doodle. So I can do that. I could do some live, that would be quite fun.

I've forgotten that sketch. I had completely forgotten that sketch. Also, a video versions of take two, the whole of take two. And the redactors round up, monthly newsletter, whatever next. and an entirely new show. Yes, this is Take Ultra, our new bi-weekly show. Okay, streamed live from Showbiz, North London, Hoban and Cambridge, which went swimmingly or was beset by technical teething issues. Depending.

We don't quite know just yet. And so head to patreon.com slash Kermode and Mayo. The link and discount code are in the episode description. Thank you very much indeed. And your correspondence should be sent to. Correspondence at Kermode Mayo.com. An email from Mr. T. Yes.

Dear Boom Bang a Bang and Ooh are just a little bit. Ooh are just a little bit more. Okay, but then he says Mr. Steve from Norway, although he signs it Mr. T. Okay. Mr. Steve in Norway. Okay. Medium term listener, sporadic emailer,

and now a member of the MK Ultra Squad, which is you. So that feels slightly suspicious. That feels like he might be the guy that's outside your house playing with the business. right now. I've forgotten your outside the house bin voice. Can you still do it?

I'm not a performing monkey, you know. Actually, I am. You are. So Mr. Steve says, 40 years ago, Norway won the Eurovision song contest with the song, Lade Swinger.

Let it swing. Let the swing. The song was performed by two very well-known and loved Norwegian female performers, Elizabeth Andreson and Hannah Crow. I hope I've got that right, who had formed the duo named Bobby Sox for the occasion. The song very well captured the mood of Norway at the time with the salacious sax, the purple sequin jackets, the swing rhythm and two familiar girls singing.

People were lining the streets to greet them when they returned and the song is considered part of our national heritage. The song was originally performed in Norwegian and an English version was released afterwards, but the translation into English is sadly complete pants and takes away a lot. of the song's message. I never thought of it as having a message particularly. The message was that you wanted to let it swing and you wanted to let it rock and roll and you wanted to let your feelings take control. Oh, oh, oh. Why do I mention all this, says Mr. Steve, also known as Mr. T, bizarrely. Well, earlier this year, you were discussing live action remakes and a listener mentioned the Ken Chuckles Brannett interview for Cinderella, featuring in a previous incarnation of this podcast. I figured I'd go back and listen to it

as I must have missed it when it was first aired 10 years ago. So I dug it out of the archives. And yes, the interview is quite memorable. But before we get to the interview, there's a bit of discussion regarding how to pronounce Mads-Mickelson's name, which is, of course, Masmeagelson. And then there is quite a long bit where you both shamelessly mock the above-mentioned winning Bobby Sox Eurovision entry. Simon even calls it rubbish. I suspect you were just feeling a bit perturbed at the time, with the UK nearly coming last in the 2015 Eurovision. But I feel like you owe the Norwegian people a belated apology. We may get nilpuan most of the time. But when we win, It's a matter of national pride

and we will not be made fun of by the country you send Englebert Humperdink to represent. Ticket, listen, that's not the worst of it. Come on, we've had lots of people who you just can't remember. Yeah. And let love shine a light.

Flying the flag. You remember flying the flag. To be honest, Mr. T, also, Mr. Steve, you also said the English version is pants. So it may well be that, you know, that's why. That we're talking about that. I mean, it's pants.

I mean, it's memorable because Marcus has been performing it. Yeah, I can sing the whole song ever since. And it's written, the writing credits go to Alex Zandra and someone called Rolf, Rolf Loveland. Would you like to be called, I mean, I imagine that's a made-up name. But anyway, it's so, but it's like Bucks Fizz. It's that kind of thing. It's dollar. Yes.

They did some good pop, and it's that kind of thing. But in the, you know, in terms of compare it with a gang of four, for example, I can't imagine you teaming up with someone. to be Bobby Sox, that's what I'm saying. Anyway, Mr. Steve, also known as Mr. T, thank you very much indeed. Correspondence atcommoe.com. Let's talk about a movie that is out and available for viewing. So, Relay, which is a thriller directed by David McKenzie,

whose name you'll know from Young Adam, Halam Foe, startup, and of course, Hell or High Water, about which we talked about, hell or high water, having one of the best diner scenes when we did our best scenes of food being served ever. So written by Justin, now, I think it must be Piazeki. The script was originally called The Brokers, and it was on the Blacklist in 2019. We say this every time. The Blacklist is this list of best unproduced screenplays,

and it is now more and more a way that unproduced screenplays that people rate get produced. You pick them up from the Blacklist. So stars Riz Ahmed, Lily James, and Sam Worthington. So Ahmed is Ash. He is a fixer. He helps people out of a tight spot, negotiating deals between whistleblowers and the companies of whom they may have run afoul. So we meet him at the beginning doing just this for somebody who was going to blow the whistle on a company now once out.

And what Rezheimer's character does is he helps him do this and he helps and he gets paid by somebody who says, incidentally, from the boss, you're a parasite. Lily James is Sarah Grant. She has discovered that the company she's working for are covering up some discoveries about the effects of their genetically modified produce. and she was going to take this stuff to the press to do something with it. But now she's being harassed by the company, so she just wants an escape route.

And she is told by her lawyer to get in touch with Rizalman and said, all I know is a phone number. You leave a message, they call you back, okay? He then communicates with her via the tri-state relay service, which is where the title comes from. This is a secure service that provides phone communication for the deaf. So basically he speaks to an operator, he types, the operator then reads out what he's typing, she then replies, and that goes through the upper.

The point of it being that there is no direct communication between them. It is all going through this completely safe third party. And he says, okay, here's what I need. I need the report that you've got. I'm going to keep a copy of it for safety. I will get the report that you want to give back to the company, to the company. You will pay me for doing it, and they will pay me for doing it. and then I will keep a copy of it in order to ensure your safety, which they are guaranteeing.

So he's basically a broker and negotiator negotiating between two sides without ever meeting any of them. Here's a clip. Hello. A person's calling from the Tri-State Relay Service you received a relay call before. You've been harassing our client, Sarah Grant. Please stop. She did her NDA and she's holding under stolen research, so no can do. Go ahead.

And now she's given it to us. In case you're doubting this, page 9 starts with the enhancement of Claridane diTurpanyes in Fertile Crescent Sample 7. All right, I understand. Go ahead. We've left word at the office of Cybo Semendis' CEO, Mr. Franklin. We await his response. Mr. Franklin passed on your message, and he's authorized us. And he's authorized us to speak on his behalf.

Go ahead. Who am I speaking to? And what is your position? Well, my name is Steve Dawson. Don't look it up. It's not real. And my team is tasked with returning the documents. Go ahead.

I love that line. My name is this. Don't look it up. It's not real. So you heard there the thing about, so the Rizalmer character is typing. So he's not, so it's completely distanced. And then that was Sam Worthington,

who does the thing about, yeah, don't look it up. It's not real. So what you then get is this kind of caten, mouse surveillance thriller in which the two central characters, which is Sarah and Ash, kind of develop this distant rapport, despite the fact that they've never had direct contact with each other. And one of the ways this happens is they have to pass code words between each other. And he says, pick one word. And she says, pick one.

He says, all right. And she says, that's two words. And he says, the Who's first album side two. And then she gets the Who's first album. The kids are all right. and then so they so despite the fact that they're having this distance thing they start to find some kind of report and then in the meantime sam worthington's lot are following them and trying to you know trying to surveil them without and the whole thing owes a kind of debt to those paranoid conspiracy thrillers that used to get in the 1970s classically in the conversation

and i suppose executive action china so you know that that kind of everyone is stalking everybody else and i read one review which compared this to michael man's thief i mean i have to say those Those are very high bars, and although Relay does have things in its favour, it's not in the same league as any of those. However, for around two-thirds of its running time, it is pretty gripping stuff. There is, at the center of it, as I said, this growing relationship between two characters who have a completely distanced relationship, and I like that. I mean, that's kind of, you know, it's a nice idea.

We've seen that done in rom-coms. You sometimes see it done in different genres of movies, but that thing about people forming a rapport through an apparently insurmountable barrier is good. they're chalk and cheese. She wears her wordy heart on her sleeve. He appears to be not speaking at all. In fact, there's a whole section of it in which everything that he's doing. And of course, Riz Ahmed is one of those actors who can convey a huge amount through his physical presence through his expressions. And I think the film is at its best when it's doing that riff. Also, it's got some very good set pieces. There is a set piece in which there's a drop at an airport. Do you remember that

scene in one of the most recent mission impossible films when they're having to swap a, get a disc off somebody or get a thing that somebody's got off them. And it's, you know, the sinewy camera stuff and one person's going one way, the other person's going another way. Well, there is a scene in this that's got that same kind of edgy thrills. And I love that. I just love the kind of well-orchestrated choreography of it. There's another thing during a concert, which is well done. I have to say that things get much less satisfying in the later stages for two reasons. Firstly, because in the later stages, it downshifts into being an action film, which is kind of less interesting. And secondly, because the script, which was on the blacklist, does this thing about trying to tie itself up in

these sort of sinewy reversal knots. And I think it oversteps the mark. I mean, I think there is a point in which you go, no, I'm sorry, I've lost faith in this now because you've just done something I actually don't believe in. And it's interesting, if you remember a few years ago, we reviewed that Resarmid film Encounters. And that was a really interesting example of a film in which the audiences kept guessing for the first half of the movie, what's going. on. And in the second half of the movie, when you start to realize what's going on, you don't in any way feel undersold. You feel like that's perfectly right. That's absolutely fine. There are things in the latter stages of this in which you go, no, no, no, no, no, sorry, no, I have lost faith in the script.

So, you know, look, it's a smartly made thriller. It's got some, a Brisbane is terrific in it. It's got some nice set pieces and it's got a nice central idea. It does, I think, fall apart in the, in the third act. But for a good half, two-thirds of it, it's twisty, intelligent fun. Riz Ahmed, who we've spoken to, of course, before. And he's terrific. On the show, but he's one of those actors, and I think there are quite, there are only a few, and we've discussed this before, that if he's in it, I'll watch it. Yeah, yeah. It doesn't really matter what the genre is, but it's sort of like a stamp of quality. If Riz has decided he's in it, it's worth watching. And also, I mean, as I think RELA demonstrates, he's got really.

leading man star status. I mean, he's, you know, he is absolutely, he commands the screen. You can't take your eyes off him. He's fascinating to watch because he's, he telegraphs so much through his facial expressions. And he's also a very physical actor, which I like very much. And as you said, you and I have interviewed him a couple of times, and he's a very decent guy. We're going to be back very shortly with these movies, which Mark will find on his script very quickly. Thank you very much. Well, Borgonia coming up in a while. But before that, Down Cemetery Road, with our very, very special guest. Who is Ruth Wilson?

We'll also have the UK and US box office top 10 and, of course, everybody's highlight of the week, The Laughter Lift. All on the way. Yeah, Mark, you know what? What, Simon? I'm getting a little tired of the production team. I mean, no offence or anything,

but I wanted to brainstorm getting someone else to run the show. Well, with indeed sponsored jobs, we could post and say, we're looking for producers with three years of experience editing video and audio podcasts for a knowledgeable crowd that knows a thing or two about film. And have done slightly more than just edit a TikTok while soaking in the tub, which has its uses. Spend more time interviewing candidates who tick all your boxes. Less stress, less time, more results now with Indeed sponsored jobs. Take listeners will get a £100 sponsored job credit to help get your job the premium status it deserves at Indeed.com. slash curmode mayo.

Just go to Indeed.com slash curmode mayo right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com slash curmode mayo. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring. Do it the right way with Indeed.

Yeah, Mark, you know what? What, Simon? I'm getting a little tired of the production team. I mean, no offence or anything, but I wanted to brainstorm getting someone else to run the show. Well, with Indeed sponsored, We could post and say we're looking for producers with three years of experience editing video and audio podcasts for a knowledgeable crowd that knows a thing or two about film.

And have done slightly more than just edit a TikTok while soaking in the tub. Which has its uses. Spend more time interviewing candidates who tick all your boxes. Less stress, less time, more results now with Indeed sponsored jobs. Take listeners will get a £100 sponsored job credit to help get your job the premium status it deserves at Indeed. Indeed.com slash curmode mayo. Just go to Indeed.com slash curmode mayo right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com slash curmode mayo. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring. Do it the right way with Indeed.

Okay, here comes the box office top 10 this week. At 15, Sketch, which, we reviewed on last week's program. Yeah, which, as I said, it was a strange thing because I had not known anything about it until you had mentioned it to me. And I think it's a really charming and interesting film. And it's, it is for kids of all ages, but it has at its heart this kind of message, which is, you know, the bad emotions, you know the things that you worry about. They have a purpose as well.

And I thought it was, it's just visually fun. You liked it, didn't you? Yes, yes, I did. Bakaroo on our YouTube channel, definitely worth watching. imaginative, funny, and still has lots of heart, without being too sentimental, really enjoyed it. And someone who appears to be called KD-C-N-D-W-1-On. Okay. Good movie. It's surprisingly scary.

Angel Studios putting it out shouldn't detract folks. Well, no, I mean, I was blissfully unaware as well, because over here it's, it's cover-releasing, but Angel, I think this in America, angel are the people that distributed, is it called Sound of Freedom, you know, that ridiculous Oh yeah, yeah. Propagandist. Okay. Nonsense. Cuenot. Yeah. Okay. Well, there's not a hint of that. No, there isn't it in this. Number 11, number 20 in America is the mastermind, which we were talking about last week. A new entry, Steve, on our Patreon. I enjoyed it. Wasn't quite sure where it was going, but it was an enjoyable ride. It does meander a bit. And we had a couple of walkouts halfway through. It doesn't give you all the answers on a plate, makes you think, which is, always a plus. Josh, this is Josh O'Connor, is wonderful, as always, don't think I've seen him in anything. I didn't like. Anyway, that's the mastermind number 11. I mean, I, I thought it was really interesting. If you see this and you like it, do check out Kelly Ricard's night moves, which is the previous heist movie that she made, because in both cases, what's really

interesting is it's, it's nominally a heist film, but Kelly Reichard isn't interested in the heist, because the heist in this is they walk into an art gallery and take some paintings off the wall. What she's interested in is everything afterwards and the fact that the characters are completely flawed and everything falls apart. And I do think it was funny that you said to Josh O'Connor, yet another film in which you're wearing an incredibly bedraggled suit. It looks like the same suit that he was wearing in the... And a rough pair of boxes as well. A rough pair of boxes, yeah. Wow. Number 10 here, number eight in Canada, is Roof Man. Which I enjoyed. I didn't know anything about the true story beforehand. Um, it works large.

because Channing Tatum is very, very charming. And it's perhaps not the film that you would expect from the director, but it is, you know, it has got oodles of charm. I mean, it doesn't appear to have found a massive audience here, possibly because people don't know the story. UK box office number nine, five in America is Tron Arise. Yeah, Tron Arse. In its third week at number nine,

so absolutely everything we predicted came true. Reviewing it, saying it's the worst film of the year, it will be number one next week and it will be gone in four weeks. Well, yes it will, and goodbye. Number 19 over there, number eight over here. Pets on a train, aka Falcon Express, French animated feature with pets on a train going head to head with a vengeful badger. And a raccoon is called the falcon is the raccoon. Anyway, unremarkable.

Number seven here, number seven there, one battle after another. So this is now fifth week in the charts. And I mean, you and I have talked about this quite a lot. I keep having conversations with people about one battle after another. I really think it's one of the most exciting films of the year. I think Johnny Greenwood score is brilliant. I think Paul Thomas Anderson once again proves that he has no interest in following any rule book whatsoever. The funny thing is, I had a conversation with somebody who said, I liked it, but I could have lived without the car chase.

It was a no. You could have lived without the car chase? That is just absolute bliss that car chase. isn't it? Yeah, I think it's terrific. And you, it provokes a physical reaction in you when it's that going over a bump in a car. Yeah. Whoa. It's like being on a fair crown ride. I think it's fantastic. Number six here, nowhere over there is I swear. Yeah, I love this. I think this film is terrific. And I said at the time, I quoted Simon Brew's review, Simon Brew from film stories, who said that it's one of those films that might actually change somebody's life. It is a true story.

and it does the great thing that cinema does about making you see the world from somebody else's perspective and it's heartbreaking at times and it's funny at times and it's profoundly humanist and I really, really love it. Number five here,

number three in America is the black phone too. Not as good as the black phone but still has some interesting ideas in it. I mean, I did like the black phone and found it a lot creepier. The problem with Blackphone too for me is that it wasn't frightening But then, you know, horror is like comedy.

The things that make you scared and the things that make you laugh are different. I think it's fine. I don't want to see a Black Phone 3. Gabby's Dollhouse, the movie, is at number four here, number 10 in America. Well, you know, I have it on very good authority from somebody who took their youngster, who loves Gabby's Dollhouse, the TV show to go and see the film. And my main question was, okay, in the cinema, in the bit, when she turns to the audience and says, would you sing the song with me?

I said, did they? She said, yes, they did. So it is doing exactly what it said on the tin. I spent most of it thinking, I have no idea what's going. But actually, that's a phrase that's going to come up a lot in the next entry in the top 10. Chainsaw Man, hyphen, the movie, colon.

Is it Rizark? I think it's Rez-A. I think it's a lot going on in the title. Yeah. Now, I know you have an email. It's blacked out on my script. Yeah, well, to be honest. So tell me what it says.

So it's from Dionne Day. Okay. Animated films have been such a hit this year with the decent K-pop demon hunter and beautiful nurture too, but I did not expect chainsaw man to hit me hard. With beautiful animation, it is narratively rich with a story which in some ways is somewhat a coming of age story with twists and turns and very emotionally deep characters. while the film is very similar to Demon Slayer in needing to watch the anime,

the film rewards fans with a simple but emotional movie with complex characters and a beautiful score. That's kind of like an AI summary of what Dion wrote. Okay, well look, here's what I would say. As I said when I was reviewing the film, I was completely lost because I wasn't familiar with any of the previous series, so I didn't know where we were or anything about it at all.

and it's interesting with the comparison with demon train which actually i felt differently about so i did i did manage to have a handle on that no jat too again these things are it's going to happen increasingly that people are going to have to get up to speed but i was very aware when i was reviewing change some way i just thought i don't know what's going on somebody else wrote to me and said i really hope you get a chance to see this because i think it's basically like a david kronenberg film now i did not think that at all i thought some of the visuals were arresting i thought some of the visuals were creepy. I thought there was clearly a lot of stuff going on in it. But it is, it is absolutely a case in which you have, I think you have to know the source material. And I think, or the

previous material, the difference between that and things like, um, uh, uh, moving train or whatever is, I felt that without knowing anything, I did manage to get up to speed, which I didn't with this. So what I'd say is, if you're, if you're in the world of chainsaw man, this is apparently a very fine film. If you're not, don't start from here because, well, it's the, it's the REM song, isn't it? Because you can't get there from here. Number two here, number two, they're regretting you. Bruno Langley says, I'm regretting paying a babysitter so I could go and watch it. Well, we had fun talking about it. And I mean, it is bonkers. It's really bonkers. And based on, well, you know, you know what you're going to get because it's, when you look at the,

the writer and the director, you go, okay, so it's, so it's, you know, fault in our stars and it ends with us. And, and, and, and even when we were doing the plots, and I had so many people say to me that your confusion at the plot synopsis, which I was trying to tell you about, was more entertaining than anything in the film. Okay. So I feel like something, something good came out of it. No, but it, it is absolutely confusing. The UK number one, which is for in America here, is Springsteen deliver me from nowhere. Can I just say that before you do that, that answers a question because at the end of my review, and you have seen it as well, I said, you know, the thing is, I think it's really good. I just don't know how many people are going to be interested in watching a film about two guys

fiddling around with a task scam in a bedroom. Number one. Yeah. And here are a couple of really interesting emails, Fraser in Glasgow. Fairly new listener started this summer and first time writer. in light of recent correspondence about how personal experiences shape our response to films like The Long Walk, I wanted to share how deliver me from nowhere hit me in a similar way. I first heard Springsteen through my dad's endless plays of born in the USA in the late 80s and early 90s. Sadly, that association soured the music for me. My father was, to put it mildly, a difficult man, and we've been estranged my entire adult life. Only recently have I started engaging with Springsteen's music on my own terms.

As a professional musician, I've come to appreciate his deep love of the craft. Watching Deliver Me from Nowhere, through that lens, was tough. Jeremy Allen White's portrayal of Bruce as someone trying to repair the damage left by his father, through songwriting or recreating a better family life, really struck a chord. The film's moments of male tenderness felt like a quiet rebellion against toxic masculinity. and the phone call scene with John Landau, like coming up for air. Having lost my brother to suicide last year, the film's message that art can be both refuge and release landed hard.

Fraser and Glasgow, thank you. What a fantastic email. What a fantastic email. And it embodies so much of what we've said for so long about how you get out of it, what you bring to it. And Dan Martin in Somerset. Simon and Mark, very long-time listener, first-time writer Yada Yada Yada. That's his Yada-Yada, not mine, which would sound disrespectful.

I've just stepped out of the beautiful Amble-Sight cinema in the Lake District, and I feel the need to write to you about Springsteen, deliver me from nowhere. It is one of the best films I've seen in a very, very long time, and I have urged all my music-loving friends to go and see it. I have warned them they may need handkerchiefs. It is a film about artistic integrity, about supporting a vision, a film about believing in friends, about a parent's love for their perfect children, and how children love their imperfect parents, about depression, about redemption.

It is so much more than a film about Springsteen, but it's also completely about him. It captures the same melancholia I've witnessed standing in a stadium full of fans who always cry when Bruce sings the river. It's also deeply humanistic, that word again, in its treatment of the artist, those closest to him. I found it profoundly moving. It's not Walk the Line or the Dylan film. It's not a conventional music biopic. It's much better. It's a small art house movie about a small album. I absolutely loved it. Keep up with good work. So interesting. I mean, both of those emails are terrific and thank you for sharing those thoughts. I mean, I remember when you, when you saw it and you said to me, you know, it's not a pop biopic. It is a film about depression.

And then you and I had a discussion about, that obviously will appeal to the nerds in people, anyone who's actually interested in hearing somebody talking about spacing out the grooves and making them less deep in order to minimize the distortion that's come off the task in which they can't get rid of. And it doesn't pass over that. I mean, there's a whole section which ends with everybody high-fiving after they finally figure out how. You see the kit they use.

Beautiful. Which is great. The triumph of it for me is, I'm not a huge Springsteen fan, although I think it is significant that the first Springsteen album I liked was Nebraska because my friend Duncan Cooper said to me, you'll like this, it's not like previous Springsteen. And I had never understood the connection between Nebraska and born in the USA. I thought of them as chalk and cheese. As I said, in the end, I think actually they are bread and butter.

They are two sides of the same thing. Jeremy Allen White's performance, the more I think about that, that opening shot when you first see him doing Born to Run, I do think that that's the kind of quintessential version of everything we've ever said about physical acting, is you go, yeah, no, that's right. Yeah, that, and you do the thing about you, you slightly squint and go, hang on, how, how, that is Jeremy Allen White, isn't it? But how, okay, so my question now would be this. I think that all the, the Bruce fans will go in the first week, which they have done, got it to number one. I don't know how it'll fare in coming weeks. I don't know whether

there's enough interest in, because it's a very internal film. It's a very, you know, it's a film about somebody wrestling with depression by finding salvation. Yeah, exactly, by finding someone throughout. Because Nebraska, of course, as it says at the end of the film, I hadn't realized this, did actually do pretty well in the charts, considering that it wasn't what anybody expected. But it's very rewarding to hear people having those responses. And particularly that thing about it is about art as a redemptive force, which is obviously much bigger than the subject of whether or not you like Bruce Springsteen. And as we mentioned last way, I love that central tension between about the fact he's got all

of these songs in his head at the same time. And they're recording all of those big, huge international hits, which came in, you know, later with born in the USA. And the record company go, yeah, and John Lander go, yep, yep. those that that that's fantastic and him saying no no no no i mean he still wants to do them obviously but he wants to put them away and concentrate on this thing which which is his obsession but the fact that those songs all came at the same time is so is i think absolutely fascinating yes correspondence at covenomere dot com for your thoughts for next week what are you doing next mark well next you

will be talking to ruth wilson about down cemetery road on the way So this week's guest is Ruth Wilson. You could well have seen her on stage. She's a great stage actor. Big screen, also in films like Dark River or True Things. Small screen, of course, Luther's Alice Morgan, or as Marissa Coulter in his dark materials. But in Down Cemetery Road, she is Sarah,

a suburban art restorer who stumbles upon a mystery involving a huge explosion, a missing child, and a cover-up, we think. All from the mind of Mick Heron, writer of slow horses, of course. What more could you want from a TV thriller? She joins me to talk about it after this clip. A customer? Let me guess. You've got a husband. He's got a secretary. Am I warm?

The secretary is still a thing. I think someone is hiding something. Okay, so Big Bang. Two bodies and a disappeared child. Maybe this case could go all the way to the top. Well, maybe sort of all the way to the middle. What would you like us to do with the child, sir? Move her.

She's not quite ready to come out yet. What is she a cake? Have you been inside of my house? Where were you last night? Who are you? Zoe Byrne, private investigator. This nosy woman needs to be stopped. Do you understand?

Yes, sir. You have found your way to the heart of something huge. There's a massive government cover-up. And I've never known a girl like you before. And that is a clip from the new TV show Down Cemetery Road. One of it stars is Ruth Wilson. I'm delighted to say that she's on the podcast. Hello, Ruth. How are you?

I'm very good. How are you? I'm fine. Introduce us to Sarah and where we are as this new rollicking TV show begins. Okay, so this is a show that comes from the same brain of the man who wrote Slow Horses, which is Mick Heron, of course. So I would call it as a sort of crime thriller led by two fantastic female characters. There's an explosion in a suburban street in Oxford, and my character, Sarah, who's sort of a nosy neighbour,

has suspicions. There's some conspiracy at play, something deep state going on. Everyone else kind of thinks she's mad, and she employs a private detective. First, it's not Zoe Boem, but becomes Zoe Boehm, who's Emma Thompson's character,

and the two of them sort of gone a big mission to find out who's really responsible for this. Okay. That's the sort of basic story. It is the basic. So Down Cemetery Road is the title. So Cemetery Road is in Oxford. Actually, Down Cemetery Road is a line from a Philip Larkin poem,

which gets quoted back in the show episode seven or something, or six. So you'll see where it comes from. But that's actually a quote from a Philip Larkin poem. Okay. So you play Sarah. It starts with a fantastic close-up of you with goggles and you're an art restorer. Yes. Which I think is a great choice because we instinctively know you have an eye for detail.

But tell us about Sarah because she's a fascinating woman, I think. Yes. It's actually quite different from the books. So Mick Heron wrote these books 25 years ago. And Sarah Crawford. Before Slow Horses. Before Slow Horses. They're his first novels.

And this one was his very first novel. And Sarah was a bored housewife. She had no job. She's married to this guy that, you know, you can tell the relationship isn't great. and they haven't got kids. It feels like she's quite purposeless. And so we wanted to modernise and more when I felt it was...

There's more when her banks who's written it. And she felt we need to modernise Sarah a bit and give her a job at least. So she thought something that would help, you know, as you say, indicate how she might be useful and how she might have a particular eye for detail or spot things

or kind of be very observant when others aren't. So yeah, we gave her a job of an art restorer. But she still has a sort of pretty suburban life and obviously is slightly restless within her life. And as you find out, and there's some trauma that she hasn't really dealt with that is revealed as the show goes on. And that gives justification as to why she sort of might be sort of follow this case or be interested in this case. Yes, because on the surface, so the explosion happens right at the very beginning during a dinner party, which you're throwing for some obnoxious friends. I imagine they stay obnoxious at the end of episode four.

They're still pretty obnoxious as far as I could say. If the explosion happens, there are people die, the child goes missing and so on. But why would Sarah adopt this as, you know, if she's been rudderless a little bit, this becomes her rudder if that works. Exactly. And she becomes obsessed with this. Yeah, there's lots of reasons, I think. There's a desire, one that gives her a sort of form of purpose. Suddenly, there's something she can solve.

I think she likes solving things. I also think there's something, again, that this child, she meets a child, that she thinks as a child that goes missing, and there's something about that child that reminds her of herself, her younger self. What is that? What is that? I think it's a sort of courage, it's a brave, sort of imaginative soul that she has sort of let go of or lost along the way.

I think she says, as in you, the sort of child I used to be. Yeah. So there's those sort of hints in it as to why this woman pursues this girl or pursues this with such rigor and fearlessness, actually, and recklessness in a way. She's an amazing character because when I first read it, I thought she doesn't really fit in this genre. And there's no real reason why she's pursuing this case. Like, for Emma Thompson's character, Zoe Boem, there's a real reason at the end of episode one. You realize why she's pursuing this. It's a real emotional drive. All the other characters have a sort of real reason to be pursuing this mission

or whatever they're doing. Whereas Sarah feels a little bit, it's a bit of bleak, it's a bit strange as to why she's involved and she doesn't really belong in the genre either. She's like a person like you or me that suddenly finds themselves in a conspiracy theory. I felt that was really interesting material. Is she a bit lost? Definitely very lost, very lost. And as you see as it goes through, you'll see her refine her younger self, which is, I don't know, almost like a raver from the 90s, you know, sort of the things she starts wearing and the clothes she picks up along the way and the freedom she has. And actually, so this is a form of escape from her, from her life, and it also gives her purpose, and it's probably the most exciting thing that's

happened to her in a very long time. So I love the idea that this character was sort of, she doesn't really understand the stakes of the scenario that she's in. And so that's why she keeps Rexley, you know, continually following this path, because she could drop out at any point. She could go back home at any point, and she chooses not to. So there's something that keeps driving her. And that was interesting of the mystery of the character and what's sort of propelling her forward. And Emma Thompson is our private detective, who you kind of ally with, though obviously you don't like each other to start with, and Emma Thompson is very rude. And I think she said that she's channeling her in a teenager, you know, that she's being

stroppy and spiky-haired, you know, and all that. So that must have been a great incentive to get this show right, to be working sort of side by side with Emma Thompson all the way through. Yeah, I mean, you see these characters, they kind of have parallel journeys for a while. I mean, they meet each other in the first episode, and then they both are pursuing the same endgame and different journeys, and they come and meet together later on down the season. So by episode five or six, they're together as a unit, which is quite fun because you're watching that you know they're going to meet at some point and it's inevitable. So you're seeing these two characters. And what was quite nice, we both had time to sort of bed in who those characters were before we really met.

And so when they do come together, it's quite explosive and quite funny. And they're both reliving and living out childish versions of themselves in a way. I mean, Sarah certainly, she has moments of tantrums and, like, petulants alongside a sort of brilliant recklessness and willfulness. and they both end up surprising each other. It's not like one takes the lead and the other ones, sort of always in the shadows. They both sort of surprise and prompt each other to action, actually.

Had you worked with her before? Because you've been in the same film, but I don't... No, I hadn't worked with her. I'd worked in the same film, so I played her mother, strangely, and saving Mr. Banks. That makes no sense. It makes no sense.

These things ever do. But, so we saw each other in red carpet, but we didn't actually ever get to work or do a scene with each other. So it was great fun, two of us working. I love Emma. She's so funny and witty and free And the scenes just were joyous to do with her

If anyone has seen Slow Horses They'll know what the Mick Herron Or read a Mick Herron book They'll understand what the tone of this series is But can you explain it to someone who hasn't Because it's a very unusual Until recently An unusual mixture it seems of real jeopardy

A real kind of thriller plot With weird stuff and laugh out loud comedy Yeah I mean You'll have to help me explain the tone. But someone described it as suburban noir, and I quite like that because there is a sort of the noir side of it. You know, it's the crime thriller. It's the sort of intensity of it, the high stakes of it, alongside suburban sort of, well, real people and the absurdity of humans and the sort of incompetence of humans. I mean, if you look at slow horses, all of them

are kind of incompetent, and yet they still get things done. So it's sort of like the wit and the humour of reality, in fact. And I think what Moena has done incredibly well with this series is, you know, she's got the driving plot which keeps you on a ride and it is a wild ride they go on. It's got guns. It's got explosions. It's got boats, trains. You know, it's a real journey and it doesn't stop. It's fast paced. But yet there's always this, it never gets too serious. The sort of rug is always pulled under the real serious nature of it. So it's constantly keeping you surprised on the edge of, and making you laugh. It's really fun to do because you'll have quite a serious moment or there's something that in a normal drama, you'd go really deep with

Not a cliche, but you'd be really emotional, or get really serious. It never is allowed to get that serious. It moves on very quickly. Does the fact that we might be laughing out loud, does it make the sense of threat less, do you think, for the viewer? Do they sometimes work against each other? I don't know. I mean, I think, no, I think when the threat really happens, I mean, the end of act, too, I have to keep calling it, sorry, I've come from a play. But the end of episode two, there's a really violent sort of attack that happens to my character.

And it's really full-on violent So I think people are really shocked by that I think it helps to keep people being shocked Actually when the violence or the darkness does come Or the emotional sort of depth moments do appear Then I think you do feel them greater If it was all like that You'd sort of get bored of it I think

This is again, I think this is a question again about Tone But your character Yeah Certainly in the early stages of this Feels like the only character In the whole drama who isn't mad Oh she becomes more mad Oh does she?

Well, I don't know. I sort of thought it was like that. Everyone is kind of dialed up. Yes. And actually in the books, it felt a bit like that. That's what I meant. It was quite hard actually tonally working out where to play Sarah because she felt so real amongst lots of people that were quite extreme or quite eccentric or on all those people have real, again, have a real reason to be in the show in a way. Sarah's sort of a bit random. And she is most relatable. So I kept thinking, okay, I've just got to play it like if I found myself in this scenario, what would I do? And I would, I'd think I'd be quite good as a sort of spy. I wouldn't be, I'd be awful. But I think that's what I had to keep thinking, okay, I'd be really excited.

I'd sort of know it's dangerous and kind of love the danger of it. And then I'd at times freak out and, you know, think I should go home. So I was like, let's just keep her really grounded and real. But as it goes on, you do realize she's kind of as eccentric as the others in a way. Okay, all right. So you match their levels of crazy. Well, I think it just, she's just, as I am quite eccentric, or as many of us are, it's like, it's, you know, what you do in those extreme circumstances

is probably not what you expect. So it was just sort of playing that with that tone, really, and keeping her relatable, but also like finding the humour in it and what you might end up, what I would probably do. Yeah. You are, you've much acclaimed not just for your TV and movie roles, but for theatre roles as well. Extraordinary success there. I want to ask you a question, which is inspired by Sean Penn. When he came on the show, he'd just been working directing Mark Ryan.

I think. And he said he always prefers working with actors who've been on the stage a lot because you can always tell because they're better. So that's the question. Is Sean Wright? I don't know. Can you tell instinctively? Yes. I've only said that because when I worked in America and I did the affair in America, there were lots of actors on that show who were theatre actors. Because again, it's based in New York and a lot of the smaller parts or supporting cast came from theatre and they were Brilliant. Brilliant. The detail and depth and specificity of just, in even smaller roles,

is kind of, I don't know why that comes from theatre, but I think it's like an attention to detail and it's also, there's a lack of vanity as well, strangely with theatre actors. I think because you're on stage, it's bigger, you're using your whole body, it's further away, you know, you're sort of not thinking about the camera so much, you're thinking about the character and the story. So perhaps you can tell. I'm not sure it makes you better, but it definitely, you can tell when someone's been on

theatre. There's a sort of groundedness to them as well. I guess if you're working with Mark Rylands, you would notice. Things like that. And being a producer yourself, does that make you easier to produce and direct? I don't know. If you're involved in TV and dramatic production, does that make you a better actor, knowing what's happening behind the scenes? I think it makes you a more forgiving actor of everyone else and what they've had to go through. I mean, how much it takes to get the thing up and going in the first. place, then it, you know, what a direct has to go through. So I think you do become more forgiving. I like it understanding how a show is put together. I love the collaborative nature

of that. As an actor on screen, sometimes, you know, your role is to come on, say, your lines and go away again. And really, it's a little bit, sometimes that's a bit empty for me. So I quite like being evolved in the conversations as to how the story is framing or forming and how they're going to shoot it. I love all that stuff because it feels much more collaborative. And again, coming from theatre, you know, as an actor, you have more control. You are the only person, well, alongside the other cast, plus all the people that are working on it. But you're telling that story every night. You have the responsibility of telling that story.

So you are much more collaboratively involved in a way and the whole thing. So I like that side of it. Not all actors do, and they much prefer being, not getting involved at all in anything that's going on behind the camera. I quite enjoy that and understanding what their plan is. And what are you working on next? I'm having a nice break, actually. I've just done a horror film in Dublin. I did that straight after a play that I did.

And then I have a break until March. So I'm doing lots of little things. I'm actually going to do a one-off performance with Tim Crouch. She's an amazing theatre practitioner. And I have nothing to prepare. I have to turn up and he does something to me on the stage and gives me lines on the stage. So I don't know what that is. Oh, wow.

So I'm going to do that on Thursday. But I'll do lots of little things like that. I've got a few things that I'm producing. So I'll keep those fires burning while the next job. comes up. Okay. Ruth, it's been fantastic to have you on the show. Thank you very much.

I feel a sense of accomplishment that I've survived. Mrs. Coulter, actually. Oh, or Alice Morgan? Well, I found, actually, I would say Mrs. Coulter was, I found more terrifying. This is dark materials, obviously, but, and the final book in the sex debt has just come out. Anyway, Ruth, thank you so much for your time. It's been fun.

Thank you, Simon, for having me. Ruth Wilson talking about Down Cemetery Road, which is out, it's not Apple TV Plus, they've lost the plus. They've added a minus to the plus, which has cancelled them all out, so it's just Apple TV. Do you think that cost them a lot of money to find that out? Anyway. Wow. I suppose it's not plus anything.

It is now Apple TV. Anyway, it's a new series. It has an intriguing cast and an intriguing writer and screenwriter. What did you make of this new show, Mark? Yeah. So just to sort of recap the headlines, so the new series based on an early novel by McHerrin, who did the Slatterhouse, which then, of course, became slow horses. his Down Cemetery Road was published in 2003,

the first in a series of books about Zoe Boe M, who's this private detective in Oxford, Mick Herron said of his creation, I wanted to write about a bunch of people who were forced to work together, who were thwarted by life and having a terrible time with their careers. And it was another quote I saw from Mick Heron said, the larger the organisation I worked for, this was of his previous working life,

the less concern it had for the people working for it, and those are themes which run throughout his work. So this is adapted by, I mean, you can only describe it was the brilliantly talented multi-hyphen at Molyner Banks, who sort of seems to be able to turn her hand to anything at all, and starring Ruth Wilson and Emma Thompson, amongst others. So Sarah, as you said, art restorer, apparently a board housewife in the book, becomes unwittingly dragged into this conspiracy mystery after a house down the suburban street is blown up. The explosion is blamed on the gas leak, but she saw a young girl being taken out of the house, that girl now seems to have disappeared. Emma Thompson is Zoe, who is the

private investigator whose husband, Wilson's character, turns to with terrible consequences. And then, so the rest of the thing, I've watched the first four episodes, which I know you have too, they are basically both independently on the trail of A, the girl, B, the truth about the husband's demise, and see the ever-widening mystery of what's actually going on behind all this, which appears to involve combat veterans. It appears to involve the Ministry of Defense. It goes high up. So the main sort of pleasure of this is the characters themselves and the interaction between them.

And it was interesting in that interview with Ruth Wilson saying that both those central characters, her character and the character played by Emma Thompson, are channeling their younger, punky spirit, you know, one discovering their lost self that they've kind of buried away and becoming more rebellious, the other one just leaning more into it. And she said in that interview, it was a terrific interview incident, because she's such a smart person. She said they were both reliving childish versions of themselves. And I do like the fact that this is a series in a genre, which is quite often very blokey, in which essentially you've got women having to sort their way through and unravel the chaos, the often violent chaos.

that has been, you know, conjured up by the men, and you do end up absolutely rooting for them with all their foibles and all their mistakes and all the things that they get wrong. The tone is very complex. That phrase suburban noir, you know, yes, okay, and it's, as with a lot of her and stuff, that is about the absurdity and incompetence of human beings,

there was that observation that Ruth Wilson made about Sarah being in the wrong genre. She's the kind of person who doesn't, it shouldn't be in a, crime genre. She should be in another thing and then she's wandered into this thing. Some of the stuff in the episodes that we've seen so far is very dark, he's quite grisly and it's all clearly leading up to something. There's a child abduction in this. There is a, you know, the destruction of a family home and there is some really bad stuff going on in the background and sort of major

character gets brutally murdered early on. You assume it must be murdered because, you know, it's not, it's made to look like something else. And then you have, a Diolacta's character who appears to be in a comedy, like in a completely different film. There's a whole section going on with him and the sort of spooky people around him who it's almost like arch, broad comedy. I mean, almost slapstick. You asked in that interview, do you think the comedy undercuts the threat? And Ruth Wilson said, no, I think what it does is it keeps you on your toes. so you are shocked when the darker things happen.

I have to say, I don't find that. I found that I never quite settled into. I'm sorry, what, where, now I know that if those familiar with slow horses, which at this point is everybody, we all understand how the darkness and the humor can be part of the same cocktail. In this, I kept trying to readjust it. So what is the tone?

What is the comic register? because if the really dark, nasty stuff is happening, then I'm not sure that I believe the sort of slapstick knockabout stuff which is happening with the other. And I found, and this may be me, this may be me, I found that the, I like the characters, I like the set up, I like the idea, you know, but I really struggled with the shifts

between the comedy and the darker stuff because they didn't feel integrated. They felt like they were pulling in two different directions. And I, is, what did you, how did you feel? Because you asked that question, and I wonder whether you asked it because like me, you had a similar, I don't know how these two things sit together. Yes, that and the, when I asked her about yours is the only character that isn't mad, and she said, I become more mad.

It felt to me as though everyone else was loopy. But do you mean caricatured? Yeah. It's, there is a kind of like a sinister ministry of defense guy who is basically Basil Fulte, who is working with Mr. Bean, and all the heavies are like cartoon heavies. You can, you know, you know, and they do some, it's some very bad and grim things. But I was trying to work out why it ultimately does. didn't work for me, where Slow Horses does.

And I think that it's not just that Gary Oldman is such a genius at being Jackson Lamb, but Slow Horses has Kristen Scott Thomas, and it has Jonathan Price, straight, being straight, and it feels like the real world. It feels as though Sloughhouse is a real place, and it may well be, life may well be like this. And I didn't, for one moment, think that that was true about Cemetery Row. I mean, it was, it's very watchable and it's intriguing. And I know this is sort of blasphemy, but I, I didn't, I don't, I can't even say the sentence. I'm not sure Emma Thompson's character worked enormously for me because she was being young and punky and, in quotes, common. And

I didn't buy that, I think. Did you laugh when you said that thing about, I don't do bonding and I don't drink Praseco? Yeah, there are some great lines in it, and you're absolutely right. Moana Banks is a genius, and Mick Heron is great. And has a very, very, you know, strong and diverse history in comedy. So it's kind of perhaps unsurprising that the comic elements land so well. Yeah.

I guess what I'm thinking is, obviously, we know the chronology about this. It does feel as though this is the show that Mick Herrick... These are the stories that Mick Heron was working on, which then ultimately gave us slow horses, which works. I will probably go back and watch the other episodes, but it just didn't quite gel for me. Down Cemetery Road is on Apple TV, and very watchable, let us know what you think,

once you've seen it, correspondence at curmud ofmayor.com. It's the ads in a minute, unless you're one of the elite. which case you'll skip through them. But first of all, no matter what tier of follower you are, you always have to get the laughter lift. It's obligatory. And of course, it's great.

You can't. No, no, no, we can't. Here's the music. Don't plus 30 this. This is a great. I know you use the plus 30 button a lot, but you don't use it for this. Some correspondence, first of all,

about the St. Francis of a Cici joke from Scott Thomas, not Kristen Scott Thomas, just Scott Thomas. Dear Barker and Corbett, apologies for carrying on the thread of pedantic quibbles about laughter lift gags. The two Ronnie's absolutely could have done jokes about CCing people in,

this is the email thing, as the term originated as an initialism for a carbon copy of a letter. I'm sure you'll recall that is how sharing correspondence to multiple recipients was done back in their day, your day, my day. And it's good night from me, Scott Thomas.

That's what it is. It's carbon copy. Carbon. I did not know that. That's fascinating. You still do say, oh yeah, it's a carbon copy of. And then everyone else is going, what? Anyway, here come the gags, Mark. Excellent. Hey, Mark. Hey, Simon. Why don't you see elephants hiding in trees? Because they paint their feet green to avoid detection, isn't it? No, because they're so good at it. Yeah, but that's just like a, I mean, that's really just a riff on an old,

It's a cracker joke. Don't knock the comedy. Have I told you about the good lady ceramicist her indoors habit of displaying the plates that she doesn't make plates? Displaying the plates. I feel as I have to say that. She's very poor this week. Yeah. Displaying the plates that she makes by the Illumina, which is of course AL2-O-3 and silica, S-I-O-2, and water content that she used for them.

She can't help herself. It's an extremely rare dish order. Rare dish. Rare dish order. It's a rare dish order. It's a rare disorder. Cousin Cecil, Mark, has had a job interview last week. The interviewer said, can you perform under pressure?

Well, not really, said Cousin Cessel, it's harder than it sounds. The Freddie Mercury parts are too hard. He had such a range, didn't he? I can do Bo Rab, if that's any good. You see, the problem there is that you would actually say, can you perform under pressure? You wouldn't add well at the end because then that changes the subject. anyway. So anyway, that was maybe plus 30, plus 30, plus 30. Can I just say I've got a new

Vanguard tier, okay, which is that you get the thing without the laughter. No, I think laughter lift ought to have its spin-off extra series where you can get rid of all the other stuff and just have the laughter lift. I watched Angel Heart the other day, and at the end of Angel Heart, Mickey Rort gets into a lift which takes him to hell. And I thought, hmm, can I just say, This probably won't make it and probably cut out for time because we're overrunning or something like that. I had all lift sequences have been spoiled for me because, I can't remember who pointed out. Anyway, every time anyone gets in a lift, it's not a lift. It's just been created by the set people so that you know that the lift doors shut and then they all get out again.

So it's never a lift. So it doesn't matter how threatening it is. It's a fake lift. And everyone's just going to get out immediately. Anyway, thought I'd share that. What do we do next? Begonia. Okay, in a moment.

Here it comes an email from Richard in the southwest of France, and I know why this has been included. Okay. Dear both, in a recent program, Mark talked about the reaction of a Barnsley audience might have to the derogatory comment about their town in the film Dougal and the Blue Cat. Quote, oh, what a place.

it's worse than Barnsley. It made me think that there are likely a good number of film goers out there who have experienced what might be described as personal cinematic slight or PCS. My own example would be Eddie Murphy's declaration when bluffing himself past some guards in Beverly Hills cop. He says, with the exception of Cleveland, this facility has the worst security in the nation. It invariably makes me bristle since Cleveland, Ohio, apparently used as shorthand-forms. mediocrity and uselessness in America. I'm also looking at you, TV's terrible hot in Cleveland, is the place my dear mother was born and grew up.

Yeah, I didn't know that Cleveland is shorthand for mediocrity and uselessness. Yeah, it is because there's a joke in Desperately Seeking Susan, isn't it? I thought you were dead and I was in Cleveland. And then there's the Jim Jarmish thing when they go to Cleveland. This is amazing. You come all this way and it's exactly. It is a recurrent punchline. It's one of those things like Poughkeepsie.

It's just used as a, you know, because in Angelheart, he says, oh, great, I get to go to Poughkeepsie again. But yes, Cleveland is absolutely used quite regularly in entertainment as a derogatory term. Oh, right. Okay. And is that acceptable because you can't choose countries to denigrate anymore because, you know, for understandable reasons, because people consider it offensive. So is it okay to pick on a city and denigrate that? I'm not sure.

I mean, I don't know whether it's okay. I mean, listen, I grew up in Barnett. And I mean, you know. Barnet, it's a lovely place. The Bulls Pond Road was used by the Generation Gay, wasn't it? The Bulls Pond Road Theatre Company is what they used to. Anyway. So if there is a town or city that is used like Cleveland, or indeed, wherever you're listening.

So, Richard, in South West France, is there a French town or city which is shorthand for, it's a bit rubbish. Yeah, yeah. I'm sure they must be. Jill, many-time emailer, sole correspondent for Lake Hawaii in New Zealand. The Guardian ran a piece the other day about stressful movies.

Well, we watched Hallow Road on telly at the weekend and about halfway through, the relaxed reminder on my Garmin smartwatch went off with a buzz saying, stress seems high at the moment. Take a moment to breathe. And it wasn't joking. it's a very tense and creepy film

I realize of course that if we've been in the cinema this would have contravened the code of conduct somewhat so apologies very good film though and we did need a stiff drink and a 30 minute pre-bed softener in the form of hacks afterwards keep up a good way hello to Jason yes hello to Jason indeed

correspondence at codomoea.com what else is out Burgonia this is the new film from Yorgas Lanthimos once again collaborating with Emma Stone with whom he worked on favourite, poor things, kinds of kindness, and now this.

So this is something of a departure because this is, it's a remake, technically an English language remake of a South Korean film called Save the Green Planet, adapted by screenwriter Will Tracy. So this is something

that Lantimos has come to has sort of inherited. So in the Korean original, Save the Green Planet, which is billed as a black comedy horror thriller, a paranoid man and his friend kidnap a pharmaceutical executive who he believes to be an alien commander who is able to contact the Andromedans during an upcoming lunar eclipse, who basically kidnap somebody because he thinks

they're an alien. And the director of that film, Zhang Jun Juan, was originally going to direct the English language version with Ariasta, I think at that point producing, then stepped away and was replaced by Yorgos Lanthimos, who then took on the project and has made it very much a Yorgas Lantamos project. So in this version, Jesse Plemence is Teddy Gats, who is this tin hat conspiracy theorist Nutball, who keeps bees and the bee colonies are failing, and he's become obsessed with colony collapse in bees. And he is convinced that Andromedans, aliens, are trying to similarly cause collapse among human society. Aided by his cousin Don, who basically somebody just does what he's told

and doesn't really have his own agency, they kidnap Emma Stone's Michelle, who was the CEO of a pharmaceutical company, whose work is connected to the illness that placed Teddy's mother, played by Alicia Silverstone, some time ago into a coma, which appears in a couple of weird scenes to be a levitating coma.

Anyway, they kidnap Emma Stone because they are convinced, or he is convinced that she's an alien. Here's a clip. How can you tell she's an alien? Well, the signs are obvious. They did a hell of a job on it, but the tells are there. Narrow feet.

Then cuticles. Slight overbite. Semi-betruding ear loads. See? High hair density. You won't notice unless you know. You won't notice unless you know what you're looking for. Yes, I can see it.

It's like if you don't cook steaks a lot, you won't know when it's cooked medium rare, but if you cook steaks all the time, you just know. You don't have to cut into it. You just know. And he just knows that she's an alien. So the first thing they do is they shave off her hair on camera. You remember that scene in G.I. Jane, in which they shaved to me Moore's head.

I do. And it's like, yeah, do they do that? And the reason is because, you know, with Nil and I, there's the whole thing, the Ralph Brown character, about all hairdressers are in the employ of the government. Because your hair is your aerials, it is how you communicate. So they think that her hair is how she communicates with aliens. So they shave her hair off so she can't communicate with aliens.

And they know that the spaceship, the Andromeda spaceship, is going to be coming back in four days time. There's a countdown to the four days because there's going to be a lunar eclipse and it can come by undercover of the eclipse. And the main character, the Jesse Bowman Company, wants to go to the spaceship so that he can then talk to the Andromedans and negotiate with them so that they don't bring about the demise of all humanity. And so Michelle, who is this very, very tough CEO, at first does exactly what you think. She says, I'm not an alien. You're a lunatic. You know I'm not an alien. You're just mad. But after a while, it seems expeditious to play along, to say, okay, all right, I'm an alien.

at which point he then concludes that she's quite a high-ranking alien. And so maybe this is a way of being treated better than she is being treated. Now, look, as with so much of Jorgos Lantemus's work, although, as I said, this is technically it is a remake of an existing film, which is pretty bonkers. This is profoundly odd. So the title, for a start, comes from a Greek word that refers to a rich, or belief about bees spontaneously coming out of the carcasses of dead animals.

Okay, but I didn't know that. I guarantee you nobody else, you know that, but that's what the title is referring to. And there's a lot of stuff about bees and the collapse of bee colonies. Dr. Who viewers will be familiar with bee colony disappearances being a big part of science fiction. So we were talking before about the tonal shifts in Down Cemetery Road and whether or not they work. Well, here, the tone veers between the comedic, the profoundly surreal, and the horrifying. I mean, at times, there are scenes in it that look like they're from a grizzly slasher film. You've got a woman shaved, shackled, kept in a basement, being tortured by two blokes who look like

murderous incels. Then you've got, at other times, it's got the sort of absurdist comedy of something like the lobster, in which you'll remember that people, they had to find a mate, otherwise they will be turned into an animal or dog tooth, very early Lanthamov's film in which there's a father who's bringing his children up to believe that cats are really dangerous beings. And big planes that are far away are actually very little planes that are very near and you can't go outside the confines of the garden. And then there's some of the social satire of the favourite

and this kind of unpicking of power structures seen mediated very much through the eyes of female characters. And then you have some of the sort of mad cat monstrousness of poor things. which you remember the main thing in poor things is that the rapidly developing brain of a baby is placed into the reanimated corpse of a of a woman, which is why the Emersonstone character is this kind of grown up but originally appears sort of very emphasized, sort of like a modern Frankenstein story. There is also an element of shaggy dog story about this. There is a thing that happens late in the day that I have to say plays much more like an art. I was talking

about how one of the problems I had with relay was it keeps pulling the rug from under your feet in ways that you don't believe. In the case of this, there is something that honestly, I think you probably do see it coming, but it does play like a, it plays more like a punchline than a payoff. I mean, it's a fairly grandiose one, but it's, it's like, yeah, okay, that's badum tish. So the whole thing is shot, it's Robbie Ryan, and there's this big thing about, you know, on the one hand, there's the world that Emma Stone's character has come from, and it's all sort of clean and then you've got the scuzzy house

in which the kidnappers live. And I have to say it is really scuzzy. It is quite hard at the beginning of the movie you spent quite a lot of time in Teddy and Don's world in which, I mean, they appear to be sort of visibly festering and they're living in this kind of mad squalor. And, you know, I was talking before about that film, Eddington.

And I said the thing with Eddington is you spend a lot of time with conspiracy theorists and they're quite hard company and there is a long section at the beginning of this which is this is a fairly hardgoing but what it how to describe this okay for me begonia doesn't have the kind of accessibility of the favorite and I know saying that the favorite is in comparatively the favorite is an accessible movie in the yorgos lanthimos landscape. It doesn't have the sheer gonzo WTFness of kinds of kindness. And I did at first find it hard to warm to its rhythms. And as I said, that thing about being reminded of Eddington, there were moments in the early stages that I did think that we were sort of in that

territory. However, as it goes along, it definitely picks up steam. And there are some very sort of smart Hitchcockian dialogue fireworks in the interplay between Emma Stone's character having to convince Jesse Plainman's character that she's not an alien, whilst knowing that if she tells him that she is an alien, things might get better. And that's, I kind of, I like that. That's, I mean, both of the characters have walked these streets before, incidentally. And then behind it all, you've got this score by Jerskin Fendricks, which I was trying to think of a phrase to describe the Jerskin Fendricks course. Obviously, Fendricks has now become absolutely Yorgos Lanthimos's musical muse in the same way that Emma Stone is sort of

his acting muse. The Yorgos Lanthymus score is honkingly bonkers. I mean, it is big, it is alarming. There are times you kind of almost jump out of your seat because it's so, oh, you know, what's happening. So overall, I think, I think I like it. I don't think I like it as much as I've enjoyed Lantemos's best work. And as I said, there is absolutely. a shaggy dog story element, which whether or not you find it, you find it satisfying or funny, is, it is up to you. And there are things in it that I like more than some of the other things in it that I like. And there are definitely some, I mean, I was just checking that, but the BBFC certificate is 15. I think it's borderline. Because some of the nastiness is 15 for strong violence, injury detail, very strong language and suicide. So I think it's kind of borderline, 18, and some of the nastiness is, he's properly nasty. But there's always been the case with Lanthamoss is that he does everything full on. And it is interesting that I don't have the same issues with the tonal shifts in this that I did with Down Cemetery Road.

Because the thing with Lanthamoros is you just lean so heavily into everything that it's, you end up not questioning it. So it's good. It's not up with the best of Lanthi Moss's work. It's not for me, I think, is what you're saying. Oh, it's definitely not for you. There you go. It's definitely not for you. Question.

Was the shaggy dog story? Is a shaggy dog story a shaggy dog story? Because there was a joke about a shaggy dog. I don't know. You know, it's funny. Even as I was saying it, I was thinking exactly the same thing. You and I've been married far too long

because we're finishing each other's sentences. Yes. Somebody who is a comedian, let us know why is a shaggy dog story called a shaggy dog story? Because there doesn't appear to be any coherence to that unless there was a joke about a shaggy dog which was famous enough for it to be, oh right, it's going to be like that

shaggy dog story. Yeah. That must have been the origin. Yeah. I'd have thought. Any quick email from David Milliken before we go. David Milliken, LTL and father to an international cinephile. Dear Mark and Simon, I'm a father to a 24 year old who has over time become a dedicated film fan. He, child too, has spent the last six years living and studying in the Netherlands, also Germany and South Korea. Being a slightly reserved individual and finding himself in foreign and perhaps initially alien cultures, he's found a very comforting home in the cinema in each place. He's now back in Europe, living in Berlin,

his favourite cinema city. I love to catch up with him and his film adventures discussing the latest releases as well as his frequent visits to retrospective film events. His latest trip took him somewhat by surprise. He was attending a showing of an Audrey Hepburn film charade, possibly charade, which ultimately he really enjoyed. However, Louis, Child 2, has a habit of not reading the fine print. On arrival at the cinema, he noted that he was the only one of a sold-out performance who wasn't, what do you think, Mark? Who wasn't what?

I don't know. This is a specialist screening. He is the only one in a sold-out performance of this Audrey Hepburn film who wasn't. Audrey Hepburn Clutching balls of wool and large needles It's a knitting screening It's a knitting showing According to that knitting screening

Upon realising his mistake He had to quickly take himself into the gents To compose himself Having gathered his thoughts And not wanting to miss this classic piece of cinema He stalled himself and went into the showing I did ask him if it compromised his viewing experience And apparently other than a low level of necessary illumination

And one laid his ball of wool dropping at his feet which he needed to retrieve for her, it was fine. Having just reviewed the Code of Conduct in which hobbies and in fact knitting in particular amongst drug-dealing, model airplane-making, fighting, having sex, and updating Facebook are cited, I am relieved to report that as far as he could tell the knitting was the only transgression,

but there was an awful lot of it going on. I look forward to hearing about his future forays into the Berlin cinema scene, but I suspect he will inform himself more fully in future, or some of some of other hobbies could definitely come up. I have never heard of a knitting screening where you can go to a movie and knit at the same time. Have you ever heard of that?

I have, yes. And in fact, I know someone who has been to one. And in this country, there are knitting screenings. Yes, I know someone who has been to a knitting screening in this country. What about fighting, having sex and updating Facebook? No, that's completely different. You can't do those things while sitting in a seat without, you know. Well, it's, I think

honestly, I know someone has been to a knitting screening and I'm, I'm kicking myself that I didn't say that when you said you were the only person who wasn't what. Yeah, it is a real thing. Okay, very good. Let us know more, please. Correspondents at kodromeo.mere.com. That's the end of take one.

This has been a Sony music entertainment production. This week's team, Jen, Eric, Josh and Heather, the redactor was Mr. Poole. And if you're not following the pod already, please do so wherever you get your podcast, which includes our YouTube channel. Don't forget the Christmas show. Tickets available at www.

Fane-F-A-N-E-D-U-K-K-K-M-O-M-O. Come and join us on Patreon. We're going to be doing a live show, which you'll probably have missed if you're not a subscriber, but you can go back and watch it again. Mark, what is your film of the week? Well, my film of the week, although I'm pretty much guaranteed it wouldn't be yours, is Bologna. Thank you very much indeed for listening. Take 2 has landed.

So many tears, so many things to enjoy live shows. Who knows what's going on? Certainly we don't. Thank you.