Kermode & Mayo’s Take - James Mangold, Indiana Jones & La Syndicaliste

Episode Date: June 30, 2023

‘Phoebe Waller-Bridge is a modern creative force’ who keeps Harrison Ford on his toes, according to director James Mangold, who has just directed the fifth film in the Indiana Jones franchise, ‘Indiana Jones and The Dial of Destiny’. Simon is remote from Denmark, so Mark takes the reins on this week’s interview, in which they discuss the genius of Phoebe Waller-Bridge and agree Toby Jones can do no wrong whilst talking about working with Harrison Ford... Mark reviews ‘Indiana Jones and The Dial of Destiny’, plus Isabelle Huppert’s new French thriller ‘La Syndicaliste’ and this week’s Box Office Top 10, in a slightly shorter than usual episode, as Mayo has to catch a plane. Time Codes (relevant only when you are part of the Vanguard): 13:52 La Syndicaliste 19:24 Box Office Top 10 30:33 James Mangold Interview 45:56 Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny EVERYTHING ELSE IN TAKE 2 THIS WEEK You can contact the show by emailing [e-mail] or you can find us on social media, @KermodeandMayo EXCLUSIVE NordVPN Deal ➼ https://nordvpn.com/take Try it risk-free now with a 30-day money-back guarantee! A Sony Music Entertainment production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts and follow us @sonypodcasts To advertise on this show contact: [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Metrolinx and cross-links are reminding everyone to be careful as Eglinton Cross-town LRT train testing is in progress. Please be alert as trains can pass at any time on the tracks. Remember to follow all traffic signals. Be careful along our tracks and only make left turns where it's safe to do so. Be alert, be aware, and stay safe. Oh, well, hello, and welcome to another take from your friends at Enbro Running Club, Copenhagen, whose microphone and equipment I am trying to use. Hello, Mark. You do sound like you're broadcasting from a sports bunker. Yeah. Can you give us some ball by ball?

Well, I'm stuck in Copenhagen slightly longer than I was expecting to for various reasons, but I bring you exciting news that Depeche Mode played last night. And on the walk to nursery pick up grandchild one, we walked past the entire many, many thousands of people who wanted to go and see Depeche Mode in Copenhagen. And they had clearly traveled from Sweden and Norway and Germany and everywhere. And they were all looking very, very happy. That's the first exciting piece of information, rock and roll news I have. And the other is a Brexit benefit mark. I bring you news of a Brexit benefit.

So this is a good thing about Brexit, is it? I'm being completely neutral. I went to the nearest pharmacy with a UK prescription. And I said, dear, I have a UK prescription here. This is all in English obviously because everyone speaks very good English here. I have an English prescription. Is it okay?

And she said only from Denmark and the EU. So I said, okay, that's fair enough and walked out. And I thought in many ways that's so much fairer for the Danish pharmacists that they don't have to deal with tourists from the UK. So the benefit is to Danish pharmacists. Yes. Sadly, I'm going to have to wait till I get back home. I think the Danish pharmacists were first on Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage's mind when they really pushed this through. I think Jacob Reese Mog was really thinking about them as well, because as we know, he spends a lot of time

worrying about those Danish pharmacists. Yes, that's right. Anyway, I love them all. And I can see you in our studio, which is a very strange thing. And I just have a Scandi white wall behind me. So hopefully, if you're watching this on YouTube, that explains everything.

It's very weird. I'm sitting here in the studio looking across an empty desk, and then up on the wall, like big brother in that film of 1984 is your face. And then there's a tiny, tiny little thumbnail of my face. So it looks like it looks like Frank side bottom and little Frank to be honest. I think I saw Maz Megelsen in the Q for Depeche mode by the way. What did genuinely or that's a joke? Well, he looked vague. I mean, to be honest, a lot of middle aged Danes look like Maz Megelsen or they're trying to look like him. But I almost went up and did an interview for him,

because it would have helped, we would have helped the show. Well, it all stays in. It also leads nicely into the fact that there is an interview this week, which is with the director of the new film that he is in, she's Indiana Jones and the dial of Destiny, that the interview was to have been done by you,

but obviously you're stuck in one for wonderful Copenhagen salty old Queen of the Sea. And so instead, it was done by me. So I'd like to apologise for that in advance because that's not really my forte. It could have many, many insights. And of course this is Indiana Toby Jones. Indiana Toby Jones. I did tell James Mangal that the film did have a proper star in it and that was Toby Jones.

And did he react well? Yeah, he loves Toby Jones. And I've never met anybody who doesn't love Toby Jones. I also got, I also got messages this morning from Hello to Jason Isaacs saying that he's now filming, but the place that he's filming is half an hour away from where I would be. And he said he can't possibly sit in a car that long to come and visit me. No, I mean, I think when you get to be a superstar of Jason's levels, you know, that's entirely it could have been hella. On the mass mega-sensee who plays the, he plays like the Nazi baddie in, you're going to be in the war with Jones.

Um, I, it is the general synopsis, general kind of understanding, the general consensus here by which I mean, I've spoken to my son about it. The scandy actors get a lot of Nazi roles because, you know, for understandable reasons, German actors are going, I don't want to please really, do I have to do that? So if you're a super scandy actor, then you get all these, you get all the Nazi roles. So yeah, if you're non-specifically European, you can generally be brought in to play baddies. And so yes, I mean, I was just trying to think, well, you know, Rex was said,

I would do, Rex was said, I just, if they just wanted somebody, you had an accident that wasn't quite, you know, it was just a little bit, just get him in, get Max, it'd be great. I think Scandys close enough, I mean, I think that's pretty much. Anyway, I don't know how much longer

that all these lines will work. So what do you tell us what you're going to be doing in this particular tape? I'm going to be reviewing a Las Indica list, which does Isabelle Upera, and I'll be reviewing Indiana Jones and the Dile of Destiny. And then this is usually when I withdraw to what I will do anyway,

including our special guest, who's the bloke you spoke to, who's the director of the aforementioned he's really. And then it should take, assuming that we get to extra takes, a whole bunch of other stuff, more nonsense. We can watch this, we cannot list. By the way, if you're watching this on YouTube and I'm not quite looking at you, it's because I have a second screen which is slightly off to, you know, and it's owned by the Danish government. So if it goes wrong, it's a Brexit bonus. Anyway, the weekend watch this weekend not list, five which are great in three or eight plus bonus reviews from Mark, because he's going to be reviewing Ruby Gilman Teenage Cracken, my extinction, and also the new WAM documentary. Are you a WAM fan? I like them. I think they made some

very good pop records. Yes, that doesn't white count. Anyway, one frame back is films with scene stealing sidekicks, which I'm looking forward to. And you can support this viral podcast, by the way. We actually take stuff. Are we doing scene still in site kick pit called Toby Jones steals Indiana Jones in the dial of destiny? Is that what is that why we're doing that? You're closer to the to the center of power. That's why we're doing it.

Yes, it's because Toby Jones. It's an Indiana Jones. Yeah, Toby Jones because Toby Jones steals everything. Anyway, that's all to come in this particular take, and in the other take, which is already landed. If you're already a van Goddester, obviously, as always, completely out of sync here. We salute you. When you say the other take is already landed,

that's assuming that this line holds up for long enough. So, yes, get your chickens. That's true. Plus, I haven't been able to print off anything. So I'm scrolling down on this Danish government laptop, which is moving as fast as BBC. Why do you want to Danish government laptop? Do you? Well, you know, it's a lot. It's a very, it's a very long. This child one not, child one is a young person of the world. Does he not just have millions

of laptops just lying around? He was in email, which says, He's short and round. Who's this from Slim Jim? Slim Jim's. I don't think so. I am writing in regard to a previous piece of correspondence in which the Terminator was shown to an age era. I do.

I do. I would like to chime in with an anecdote regarding a phenomenon that I have just invented named indirect, cine-pressionable, consequence disorder. ICPCD. It can be put. Well, it actually is a word in Danish, I think. It means no sandwiches and no feeding of the birds under any circumstance. Well, I was in primary school, my younger brother, who has Down syndrome, and I were babysapped

by a family friend's teenage boy already problems at that point. Why would you ever get a family friend's teenage boy to babysit your jaw? Anyway, for entertaining himself and indeed us, he rifled through the videos that we had on the shelf and he came across our box set of the original three Indiana Jones films. For some, an imaginable reason he chose the Temple of Doom. All was fine and dandy for the first however long until he got to the scene in which some poor devilish tortures subjected to an amateur cardiac excision and burned to live-ish at the hands of a bald man with a funny hat on. The cine-pressedable consequence of this was a difficult night's sleep for me. For my brother, however, it had, sorry, scrolled too far. For my brother, however, it had more galvanizing and somewhat more troubling effects. A day or so

later, my parents still unaware that we'd watched the movie, received a call from my brother's school saying that Ted had spent his playtime trying to rip the hearts out of his friend's chests. He would then hold the imaginary organ above his head, and yell, I've got his heart before pretending to eat it and say, mm, yummy. I would like, therefore, to suggest that it was not me and my brother who suffered from ICPCD, but my brother's friends who were confronted with the sharp end of the reenactment. You'd be glad to hear that all of the parties involved survived, and indeed one of the victims recently got married, which Ted was invited. There seemed to be no lasting effects, although having seen the pictures, the pudding of the reception was served in something looked a lot like the scolver-resist macaque. I'm sure it was just a coincidence. Anyway,

thank you for the wonderful work and remember, always keep your monkey brains refrigerated. Best serve chilled says Slim Jim. The chilled monkey brains thing in term, I mean, Temple of Doom is a weirdly misjudged film. Even if you were old enough to have seen it, it's still, I mean, Spielberg himself has said this that looking back at it, they got it wrong. They just, you know, there are things in that film that are really, really properly nasty.

I mean, including the chilled monkey brains, which is the thing that almost everybody remembers very, very odd. Then again, the first film ends with scary angels melting the faces off Nazis, so, but it's okay because they're Nazis. Got an email here from Toby Jones Brackett, it's not that one. So, do you let it be and leave it be? Like the good doctors, I was pleasantly surprised to see the mighty Sanji Bascon of this parish rock up in the new DC offering of the flash at the weekend.

My reaction made me think that whilst Jason, as his own greeting, see fine branded drinking vessels for details, see the podcast and live show regular and sometimes substitute Sanji Basco is missing out. Any Sanji related appearance is guaranteed to bride in any one's day. So with that in mind, for myself at least from from now on, whenever I see him or him anywhere, I will say to myself what I said to the rather audible of volume I think in the cinema during the screaming of a plash, hurrah, it's Sanji. As for the film itself, I rather enjoyed the first half beyond that the eye-bashing CGI and increasing annoyance of Ezra Miller's sub-billaintead, dude, Stick. We're not sufficiently offset by

the Easter eggs and fan references to alleviate the unnecessary length of the film. Michael Keaton was great though. Hello to Jason, up with one thing down with the other and Harrah, so he's in Sanjee. Says Toby Jones from Shoby's North London. So I think that's not a bad idea. So whenever you hear Sanjeeva on something, or see him in something, or if you see him in the shops or on the tube, you shout lustily, who are it, Sanjee?

What do you think? I think it's good. I'm gonna discourage it being shouted out loud in cinemas. I mean, I think that the email that was correct to do it internally, the internal monologue, horror, it's Sanjeeva. The thing I'm wondering is, you know, Jason wandering around in the world, people come up to him and go, hello to Jason Isaacs. I'm just wondering what the effect on Sanjee's life will be if he wanders around in the world to a constant chorus

of Hararit Sanjeev. I mean, I'm, well, I I'm, I mean, I'm, I mean, I'm, I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I a trial period of two weeks. If anyone sees Sanjeev in anything or in the flesh, try Hararet Sanjeev. And if Sanjeev takes us and says, would you mind withdrawing this because it's driving me nuts, then we will do so. Yes. Okay. So we'll do this for a limited offer period. I told you that J.S. and Isaac to me that he when he met Alan Parker, the the very famous film director, he was introduced to him and said, you know, Saral and Parker, this is Jason Isaacs. And Saral and Parker said, well, as in hello to Jason Isaacs.

There you go. Famous for something anyway.. Correspondence at Covena-Mau.com. If you want to take part, correspondents at Covena-Mau.com. By the way, the microphone that I'm using here, the one that belongs to Embro, running club Copenhagen, is called a Thron Max, which is a character in Lord of the Rings at least. But it's a Thron Max microphone. Of a Shelley's Thron Max. No, but it's a Thron Max, Microsoft. So the Shalees Thron Max. No, no, that would work. Anyway, correspondence to go to me, give us a review, something mighty. Okay, Las Indicales, which is a French film, the title which means the trade unionist.

This is directed by Jean-Paul Salamay, re-teaming with Isabelle Oopere, with whom he made a film called La Daronne, which over here was released as Mama Weed, which is not a great title. Anyway, this is based on the true story of Maureen Keeney, of whom I had not heard before trade union activist in France. Had you ever heard Maureen Keeney? No, I'm not afraid. Okay. So an Irish woman living in France, although, I actually from the, from the, I only found the

Irish roots thing later on because obviously is a belly peasant, performance is in French and I have no idea whether or not is a belly peasant is doing an accent or indeed what the accent would be. So the film opens in the aftermath of a horrible attack. She is found, 2012, found in her house by her cleaner, bound, gagged, violated, I think is the only word to use. The story then goes back to the period before leading up to the attack. She's the head union representative for a French multinational nuclear company, and when her boss is replaced, she discovers the secret plans to do a deal with Chinese, which will have huge implications for all the workers that she represents. She tries to blow the whistle on the deal.

When she does so, she starts receiving threats, threatening phone calls. Her family start to think that they're being followed. And then the attack we started with. In the aftermath of the attack, she is calm and composed. I mean, actually, I was reminded of the L, which again, is a belly pain, which plays a character who is refusing to act like a victim. And the police start to think that her reactions aren't normal on what you would expect. They also can't find evidence of the attack. And all too quickly she goes from being somebody

who has been attacked to somebody who is being investigated for having given false witnesses a very specific offense in France. The films inspired by an essay, the same name by Carolyn Michelle Aguirre. And the director's site films like Clute and all the presidents, which is like political thrillers, American political thrillers as influences.

And I didn't, like I said, I didn't know this story before. And the story is really very, very alarming. Isabelle who pairs terrific in the lead role as she always, I've never seen Isabellu Perry give anything other than a no perfect performance. And I was reading this thing, the director wrote about it, saying it's a drama that frights through its clinical approach to themes, such as the place of women in spheres of power, the importance granted to their speech, and the assumption of their madness and their manipulative behavior, which is kind of the thing

that's at the heart of the film. I mean, on the one hand, it's a story about a whistleblower and you can see links to things like, you know, you can see, like I said, you can see links to those political thrillers that he cited, but it is also about what happens when you have a powerful woman in a largely male dominated workplace

who starts to speak out of turn and the way in which the world around them reacts. And an awful lot of it is to do with the fact that as far as everyone around it is concerned, she is not behaving in the way she should do if the story that she's telling is true. Now, in case people don't know the story, and I didn't, so I didn't know where it was going, and obviously you can look it up, it's a real-life story. It is a fairly alarming real-life story about her then subsequent legal battle. But the drama is very gripping. It's well-directed. I really did not know which way the story was going at all, and personally I found that that

actually worked for the drama, although, of course, this is a real life story with real life consequences with a real life outcome. And so you may wish to to find out about the real life outcome in advance. And Isabelle Loupair is just, is Isabelle Loupair just continues to be, she just never puts a foot wrong. She is a really, really fine actor and she kind of carries the film.

And it's called Las Indicalesce. Las Indicalesce. Yep. But, okay, I still... Literally the trade-usonist. That's about... Las Indicalesce sounds more powerful, do you know? Yeah, no, it's...

Which is why I think they kept that title because I think it is a really good title as opposed to Mama Weed, which is not... Which is not... Which is not... No Mama weed, which is not which is not. No, no indeed not. Okay, still to come. Oh, still to come reviews of Ruby Gilman teenage crack and Indiana Jones and the dial of Destiny with our special guest over to you.

Were you spoke to him? I know, but this is how we do it in the thing and I can't now can't see you because the internet connection has now gone down. All I can see now is a list of numbers. So over to you. Is it the director of Indiana Jones and the dial of destiny? The director of Indiana Jones

and the dial of destiny? Excellent. James Maggoth. Okay, we're going to be back before you can say the life of man is of no greater importance to the universe than that of an oyster. David Hume, we're going to consume Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel.

Happy Nord Christmas. Protect yourself whilst Christmas shopping online and access all the Christmas films from around the globe. Plus, when you shop online, you'll have to give websites your card details and other sensitive data like your personal addresses. Those websites should already have their own encryption built into their payment systems, but to be on the safe side, you can use a VPN to ensure that all data coming to and from your device

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Hi, esteemed podcast listeners, Simon Mayo and Mark Kermot here. I'm excited to let you know that the new season of the crown and the crown, the official podcast returns on 16th of November to accompany the sixth and final season of the Netflix epic Royal drama series. Very exciting, especially because SuperSub and Friend of the Show Edith Bowman hosts this one. Indeed, Edith will take you behind the scenes, dive into conversation with the talented cast and crew from writer and creator Peter Morgan to the crowns Queen Elizabeth Emelda Staunton. Other guests on the new series include the Crowns research team, the directors, executive producers Suzanne Mackie and specialists, such as Voice Coach William Connaker and props master Owen Harrison. Cast members including Jonathan Price, Selim Dor,

Khalid Abdullah, Dominic West and Elizabeth Tabicki. You can also catch up with the story so far by searching the Crown, the official podcast, wherever you get your podcast. Subscribe now and get the new series of the Crown, the official podcast first on November the 16th. Available wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, so let's do the box office top 10 at 21, the super eight years. Which I thought was okay. I didn't think it was quite as good as people who love it do.

It is essentially a construction of narrative through super eight film with voice over, and I thought the voice over was doing an awful lot of heavy lifting, but I do know people who have enjoyed it, not so much me. Number 10 is The Boogie Man, which has been hanging around quite well. Yeah, it's done well. I still think that it's a very solid mainstream movie. I prefer it when this director who you spoke to, you can still hear the thing on a previous pod, is allowed to do something slightly more off the wall, but it's done good, solid mainstream business. First, 10 is at nine. So this must be now, and it's done good, solid mainstream business. Fast 10 is at nine. So this must be now in its kind of final week, probably in the top 10, but it has

done astronomically well, one of the most expensive movies ever made. I was just looking at the adjusted for inflation list recently. And it's, you know, it's up there in the top end of movies. We still have more to come. That's the thing is that the story hasn't finished yet. Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 3, is it number eight? Surprising how well it's done, considering how dark it is. Greatest days at seven.

Would you have now officially reassessed? Yes. On the basis that I sort of all kind of clicked into place in the final lap. And I should flag up that on take two, we'll be reviewing, because obviously the greatest days is, well, it's not take that, but it is take that, but it's not take that, but it is take that. And in take two, we'll be reviewing the WAM documentary, the Netflix WAM documentary.

Number six is Transformers Rise of the Beast. It's not as good as Bumblebee, but it is better than the other ones that Michael Baid directed. The little mermaid is at fire. Worth it just for how much it's annoyed the idiots. So yeah, good. A number four is asteroid city. So now here's an email from just trying to scroll down with my Danish government computer. Evie Harkershaw has sent in an email. I'm just going to flannel. There we go. Okay, thoughts on asteroid city. I've no intention of trying to change anyone's mind about this film. If anything, I'm sure that if

you were to watch it again, you would take against it all the more, find it more patients testing, more arch, more for live itself. Rather, I'd like to say that you and I, and this here is a reference to you, Mark, saw different films. The film I saw was charming, funny, poignant, and beautiful. I know that Astero looks like all ambassins films, and so it is difficult to argue that the aesthetic adds much substance. How can a style that's persistent and unwavering also be particular or illuminating? How can a compulsive style be heartfelt? I don't know exactly.

The same style that was relentless and tripping in Grand Budapest was here more still, more engaged, more encouraging. With a few exceptions, the cops and robber chases being the most regrettable, the look of the film was attentive, considerate and curious, which did much to balance out its main characters' emotional constipation. I found the style tailored and not just elegant but resonant. I didn't mind the actors studio sections as you did, but if they comprise your predominant memory of the film, I can understand your displeasure. My main memory is of two windows facing each other from two cabins. I remember the two people talking between those windows. I liked listening to those people. I remember

a Chanel bottle. I remember Scarlett being excellent elsewhere. I also remember having new fluttering feelings for Adrian Brody. I remember Maya Hawkes' foot tap back when Rupert Friend appeared, stayed right. I remember three daughters of Vampire, which, and a fairy. Many of these things feel incidental, some of them certainly incidental. But this is a film where incidental is important, and I found it delightful, says Evie Harkershaw. And, you know, you're not alone. There's an awful lot of people who like Astro-Itziti very much. And as I think I said at the time, if you are a Wes Anderson fan, it's the most Wes Anderson film that he's ever made. And, you know, and it's entirely possible that you'll,

that you'll love it. This is kind of strange thing around this, which is that in a way, the movie is kind of quite marmite. I know many people who love it, and I know many people who really don't like it very much. And I'm in the latter camp, well, I think it's well crafted, and it's very lasonian. The thing I don't quite get is the,

and this is absolutely not in that email because that email was totally very beautiful and measured and very well argued. There is a certain chippiness among Wes Anderson fans to people who haven't liked Astro O'Tiddy because the film has proved kind of somewhat divisive. I mean, I think when it was French Dispatch, it was like different matter. But yeah, I mean, it's, you know, the film reminded me of Mars Attacks, which I liked a lot more. And my favorite bit in Mars Attacks is when Jack Nicholson is whatever it is president of wherever America or the world, I can remember, says, you know, little people, can't we all

just get along? And I kind of feel, it's an odd film to be I rate about. I suppose that's the thing, but yeah, many Wes Anderson fans love it. And that's a good thing. If you're a Wes Anderson fan, you know what you're going to get. I have loved some Wes Anderson movies. I have not loved some other ones. But hey, but hey, little people, can't we all just get along? Number three is no hard feelings. So an email here from David Thompson. Why I completely understand how some may see the premise and casting of the film as weird and disgusting, I feel the film is very open about what's going on in the trailer and the many posters I've seen around. I've grown up laughing my way through gross out films such as American Pie, Road Trip, The Interview and Longshot can appreciate

them for what they are. I agree in an absolutely happy, sorry, and obviously happy that times have changed in society in terms of what's appropriate and not appropriate in the workplace and in general conversation. However, on a movie screen, when watching a film where you've had the opportunity to see the trailer and research what you're getting yourself into, I must, I must protest, excuse me. Are these films masterpieces? Absolutely not. Are they funny to a certain audience?

Yes. And what's more, not a multiverse insight? I actually found the movie to be much sweeter than I originally expected it to be and would recommend it to a wider audience than I originally thought. On the troublesome scale, it's no one near anymphomaniac or even Rushmore in terms of what the leads up for treing. And I'd love to hear why Mark found this troubling. And last year's licorice pizza, a film which is totally different, there's a much more

troubling age gap to be totally fine. Anyway, Tinkley Tonk, up with Blue Hair and Down with Orange Faced toilet readers. David Thompson. Well, I know, hard peasy. I mean, we discussed the licorice pizza thing a lot. We did. And the general feeling was that there isn't actually a right or wrong answer to that, because some people, I mean, I absolutely love that film, but there are people who object to it for very good and very well expressed reasons and that is perfectly fine. I think the problem with no hard feelings isn't that you know, you

are front objectionable. I think the problem is it's tonally all over the place now. In terms of the way it's sold, there actually has been a little bit of controversy about whether or not the trailer, I mean, there's more than one trailer, but whether or not the trailer sort of selling it as a gross out comedy was doing it in injustice and they, they, there was a kind of debate about exactly what the trailer should attempt to be selling. I still think that the main problem with it is is that the two leads appear to be in different films. One of them appears to be in a film about an independent, free-spirited young woman who

knows what she wants and we know. And then the other one appears to be a completely caricatured figure who seems to have walked out of a movie like Revenge of the Nords. And I think that was, I mean also, you know, as I said, you know, it nods towards Ross Beeler and it obviously takes riffs from risky business, which are films that are just, you know, that some people like them, some people don't. I don't think the problem with no hard feelings is, is, is, is, I mean, I felt awkward all the way through. I felt uncomfortable all the way through it, but, you know, the tagline is pretty

awkward. I found it was pretty awkward. It has gone in at number three, which is for a, you know, for an original comedy is a solid showing. So it's done fine. And great, if you saw it and you enjoyed it, that's really good. It just didn't work for me. The Flash is at number two. I mean, the Flash, I imagine that awful lot of people who see the flash feel the same way as I think both you and I did, which is there are things in it that are fun. There are things, I mean, I actually like Michael Keaton's performance as the wash-talk Batman. I think that works well. It does turn into smashy-bashy-crashy. There are some unforgivably shonky visual effects in it. And again, we're in the same position that that's at number two, and at number one is

Spider-Man across the Spider-Verse. And if you look at what those, sorry, to steal your thunder on that. But if you look at those two movies back to back, one of them is a multiverse movie that makes the multiverse exciting and interesting and another is a multiverse movie that I think makes it exhausting and exasperating. And thank you to the correspondence about Shonky VFX, which we will get to, we haven't got time to get to it at the moment, but we will get to it at Substance. Thank you very much for the emails to Correspondence at Komenome.com. Back in a moment, Mark has spoken to James

Mangolzer, Indiana Jones Conversation after this. This episode is brought to you by MUBI, a curated streaming service dedicated to elevating great cinema from around the globe. From my connect directors to emerging oturs, there's always something new to discover, for example. Well, for example, the new Aki Karri's Macchi film Fall and Leaves, which won the jury prize it can, that's in cinemas at the moment. And if you see that and think I want to know more about Aki Karri's Macchi, you can go to Movie The Streaming Service and there is a retrospective of his films called How to Be a Human. They are also going to be theatrically releasing In January Priscilla, which is a new Sophia couple of film, which I am really looking forward to since I have an Elvis

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visit mx.ca slash business platinum. So now, welcome back. As I'm stranded in Denmark this week, as I've mentioned, Mark stepped into the hot seat to interview this week's guest, the director of Indiana Jones dialed destiny, the fifth instalment in the franchise, he is James Mangold. He'll also know I just waste my time. Get in the pool! What? Help me open the door! Well, they didn't get on the doors. Get in the pool!

Okay, I'm getting in the pool. Help me! What the media's just fascinating. White! Water! Your basement! That was a clip from Indiana Jones in the Darl of Destiny. I'm thrilled to be joined by its director James Mangle. James, welcome to the show. Thank you, Mark. So the film plays out in two worlds, the end of World War Two,

and 1960s invite us into the world. Yeah, it actually plays in three worlds, but we can't say that. We can't say that, but I just do. Well done. You, but well done. And all the time, it's the critics who get told don't give spoilers away. Yeah, but I did give away a spoiler. I just merely talk theoretically about the time realms that the movie played. But it might play out. So, introduces to the world of the film. I guess this is how I do it.

I'd say that when I came onto this project, it seemed to me. It still was without a script that had become solid. Yeah. So, the first task at hand was to try and figure out what is this movie about and what do we have to say. And it seemed to me knowing my leading man was in his late 70s that it was kind of a hero who finds himself at sunset, but also a hero who has always been focused on time himself. He is himself a man who is always looking backward into historical past,

but may have his own life and history may be catching up with him in some way. And so that became that that told me that I wanted to start the movie in a way in 1944, what I'd call the golden Indiana Jones period, so we could give the audience a taste, even more than a taste of a fresh sequence in the tradition of Indiana Jones movies, these opening sequences that almost feel like the end of a previous movie.

Give them, give the audience that, but also use it as a kind of cinematic opportunity for my favorite cut in the film, which is as you round out the adventure in 1944 with a young Indiana Jones, you cut quite quietly to 1969 in New York City and come upon Indiana Jones in his 70s. And that change and that contrast,

a man in his prime in a kind of golden age period chasing Nazis in the great war of wars where all things were simple good guys, bad guys, our sense of right and wrong. With golden age music playing, wearing a fedora, all the aesthetics we know of from Indiana Jones to finding ourselves in a more modernist time with a man who may feel out of time. You and I first met in a previous century when you'd make heavy and you're approaching 60 and I'm very fast approaching 60. How much of this is to do with you? Myself. Yeah.

I think I've been a kind of focused on being old sense. I mean, in a way, heavy is almost a similar film in the sense of a kind of character who very much is at least pushing 50 at that point in kind of finding he hasn't lived his life yet. And the next movie about a kind of sheriff in middle age, Copland, I know that this point where he spent his whole life doing kind of the wrong thing and his face with this last moment, I'm very fascinated by time and age and the choices left behind us that we, the roads not taken and how those regrets haunt us.

I guess I'm also fascinated by how much movies in general try and avoid these questions, at least American movies. They're focused on youth and our heroes generally are absent of flaws or vulnerabilities. So even in my case, when I made Logan, it also became a different, certainly more grim meditation on the last chapter of a hero's life, but it also was a kind of meditation on the past catching up with you. And it's something fascinating to me and something film is uniquely equipped to explore, because of its unique relationship with time. It is films are more than just images and acting. They are time itself in a spool unwinding. And how was the act of turning back time

by D.A.J. Harrison Ford for those early scenes? Because I have no idea what that must feel like on set to do. On set, it's just Harrison acting younger and and and Sprite and and when it's something he can't possibly do in a young fashion, having someone else do it, but the whole concept is is to just I just shot a piece by piece like any other movie. It's just that his head and and the way he was driving his

performance came out of whatever Harrison was doing and was projected through this technology into his younger self. The film obviously stars Harrison Ford, however, you have one of the greatest movie stars of our time in it, Toby Jones. Now I am the world's biggest Toby Jones fan. In fact, I had the privilege of going to college with Toby Jones, so I still can't believe it. Every time I see him on a massive screen, tell me about Toby Jones and working with him

because I... And say only good things. No, I love that you said that. I love him. And I think his spirit, you love him the moment you meet him on screen. From the moment he turns into a close-up, you adore the heart of this character. I've seen him do a million things always well. I thought

we were so blessed when we got him on board and he's such a joy to work with. I can't think of anything negative to say about Toby Jones if you could give me a prize for doing so I just adore him. He's one of the people in America, you call them character actors, he would just call them actors. Every time you see him in a different role, he looks like a completely different person. I think that's his miracle.

He's a miracle, but I also, that's my kind of actor. I mean, it's even why I love Harrison so much is he may be a leading man, but he is in the American terminology a character actor. He's always looking to undermine his leading manness. You know, one of the really interesting experiences working with Harrison that was really,

it was clear to me as we were working on the script and in prep, but really became crystal clear once I was on set with him every day. Directing him is that he arrives every day. You know, we get these things we call our sides, which are this kind of mini version of the day's work to hold in our pocket and in script form. And Harrison will be fumbling through the sides of the day. And I can see what he's doing that the gears are spinning in his mind.

How can I undermine this scene? I don't mean undermine it like in a bad way. I mean, undermine its obviousness or make the scene more messy or complex or human. This is not what all leading men do. He's always looking, and Indiana Jones is the perfect example of it. He's a hero, but he's always a hero who is sometimes falls into the right move. His punches often don't land. He often makes turns the wrong corner and has to correct himself. Harrison loves his character making mistakes.

He loves his character's foibles. He loves to get lucky that Indiana Jones kind of just gets lucky and survives. And he also loves his anxieties. Indiana Jones is kind of a socially awkward character who's never really managed to have a strong relationship last very long. He's a, he avoids students, avoids attachments, loves just books and being on his own.

All these are not the typical attributes of a quote unquote hero, but Harrison manages to weave them all together and has throughout his career, not just in this role of a quote unquote hero, but Harrison manages to weave them all together and has throughout his career, not just in this role of a many, as this tapestry of humanity, human foibles, that make us even more endeared to his hero than other actors might be who are playing some kind of perfect specimen. So what does it bring to the title when you put that alongside Phoebe Wollabridge? Well, and if you just that brings to it. Harrison and Phoebe are very similar characters and talents.

She's formidable creatively. And I think one of the astounding talents of the last decade to emerge. And I mean, when this opportunity regarding this film first came to my door and I began puzzling over what I would do with the story and we talked about this idea of Indy having a goddaughter who comes out of his past and kind of comes to find him. It was instantly Phoebe to me. I was admittedly just completing watching the second season of Fleabag at the time that this movie landed with me.

Phoebe is such a modern creative force, but she's also classically old school to me. She reminds me of Hattepern or Barbara Stanwick or kind of verbal, whipsmart, capable, independent, maybe a little dangerous, maybe even will destroy you, but you'll fall in love with her nonetheless. I'm really remarkably complex series of braided elements that are both a part of her and a part of what she brings to the screen. And I felt like she'd be a handful for Harrison, which is always with an actor like him. That's what you want. Is you basically want to just put the very best tennis opponent you can to hit the ball and put some spin on it.

And no, not in the story, which some might be surprised at. Well, mud is in the story. But I understand. Yes. I'm not sure anyone will be surprised, honestly. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Fine. So in terms of the balance between the, you know, the rollercoaster ride, which we expect from Indiana Jones and the characterization which you're talking about. And like I said, when we first talked, it was, you know, little independent films. Is it hard to balance that? Is it ever a battle or is it just these two things can run along on separate tracks? Well, I definitely say that I wouldn't want my first movie to be a movie at the scale. That there are, there, you know, making having made

while I've never made a movie as large as this, making movies that are large in scope and nature and budget and travel, et cetera, visual effects, you do begin to learn how to manage what is effectively a gigantic operation. Just logistically. Yes, but you realize there's one part that you really, there's one part that doesn't change. From heavy to Indiana Jones and everything in between, you arrive in a room, not unlike this one with a few actors

and a camera. And you got to move them around and make the scene work and break it into units that we can understand and make each shot, at least by my standards, have value and know why this shot, why that shot, I try not to just smear the scene with it. But that heavy, girl interrupted, walked the line, Le Mans 66, Indiana Jones, I still arrive each day having to make something happen in a space with actors.

And all the scale of what's outside the walls of that set, how many trucks, how many cranes, how many stuntmen, or the scale of the sets, it all kind of finishes under that simple, basic job I have of making, trying to make with the actors something life-like and enjoyable and entertaining and moving happen. Well, time's a deal. Let me ask you one last thing. The Butterworths, who are, you know, formidable writers, how do you write with them? Do you write in a room or do you write separately? How does it work? Separately, but together. I um that that was unique in this movie because it was born in the pandemic and so jess and john henry live here in london and i'm on the west coast of america so almost all our time was spent in ex as most of the world that extended zoom calls

uh we were with him before and we were on the floor for leo mons 66 and we have a great relationship and a sense of each other's taste and instincts and it was a joy working with them and it's in a kind of laboratory of just because when we started we kind of had an idea that the movie was going to be about time and this hero at sunset and and this hero at sunset and other elements, but we felt our way through the story and let the story speak to us and kind of tell us where it was going and they're real artists

and they're fearless. And what I mean, and I say that, that's true about Harrison and Phoebe as well. I love people who both understand the responsibility and magnitude of what they're doing, but they're also Understand that in some ways to ever succeed at making these things you have to kind of put all of that out of your mind You can never you can't win a football game if you're thinking about how important the game is you have to win the game by thinking about the ball And that in the end, Jez and John Henry were thinking about the ball.

We're thinking about how to write, how to construct scenes we hadn't seen before or characters we hadn't seen before in situations that seemed inviting and intoxicating and fun because that's the other aspect I think we really enjoyed. And the writing process is that action adventure movies, and I don't say this with any disdain because I participate in it. Many action adventure movies are kind of brutalist affair. They're very assaultive. And there's a kind of grimness of message to the modern action

adventure or even superhero movie. Indiana Jones, I think part of what we miss about the films and part of what Jazz and John Henry and I tried to capture in crafting the narrative was that these are charming films and kind of as much about eccentric character as they are about the scale of the visuals. And that the hero doesn't always know what to do or have the right tool in his belt or can't always jump from here to there successfully, that it's not about kind of the physical perfection of the character. It's about the humor and the humanity in the interplay of all this eccentricity of character

with all this scale. And that's not what we created. That was the formula of the Larry Castan and Steven and George created and Harrison from the beginning of this wonderful friction between a character piece that was played out on such a grand scale at the same time. So, I'm thank you for your time. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My. My. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My. My. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. My. My. My pleasure. My pleasure. My. happy 16th birthday. To you as well, Maureen. Thank you. spend $300 or more. That's right, free. Only at your super holiday store. Conditions apply, see flyer for details. And that is James Mangold talking to Mark because I was not available. Hopefully briefly, who knows where I'm going to make it back anyway. We watched, I kind of know a lot about what you think about Indiana James because I was watching it with you anyway. but having done the, having had the conversation,

tell us what you thought of me. Well, I think that both you and I are on the same page about this. So we sat and we watched Dialvestne together and we saw it on the iMac screen. So, you know, great big romping experience. And I think if you're going to go and see it, that's the way to see it, because it is in many ways, for all its, you know, up to the minute, deaging, which I noticed, there's been some debate about this. I actually thought the deaging stuff was done, rather, did you think the deaging stuff with Harrison Vibe? I was kind of convinced by it. Well, you know, I mean, it's better than it used to be, but he looked like a figure in a computer game. And the worst bit is where young Indie is running across the roof of the top of a train, and it just looks like it's been, it looks like a piece of animation.

So I was kind of out of sorts, I think, by being disappointed about it. OK, I wasn't, because I actually thought that stuff, well, I think, by being disappointed about it. Okay. I wasn't, because I actually thought that stuff, well, it was just, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was,

it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, which was a real edge of the sea experience. And I think the thing with Indiana Jones is that it's got a kind of nostalgic affection that isn't to do with absolutely nail biting. Actually, me, yes, there are great big rumping things, there are car chases, there's bikes, there's the stuff with the train at the beginning, there's the two separate time periods working, but there's a two separate time period working, but at the heart of it is a character that you have been with for a long time to whom there is a huge amount of affection. And I think the headline thing is to say that Harrison Ford sort of earns that. I mean, Harrison Ford has reprised, you know, hand solo and Rick DeCard in later life incarnations, and he's done it really well. And in the case of this, the film wouldn't work if you didn't have somebody as innately likable on screen

as the central character that he has created. I think the very fact that he's managed to create those three really important genre heroes, is a great testament to him. I mean, there is a there's a lot of stuff going on at the beginning, as James Mangles saying in the interview between Indy and his prime and Indy now. I mean, now the thing that he resembles most closely is the old guy from up. When you first meet him, he's literally like that grouchy character banging on the

neighbor's door and saying, can you stop making all this noise? Toby Jones steals every single scene that he is in, and he's having a whale of a time doing it, and there are very few people who can invest, what's a role which would always be in danger of going towards the pantomime, but just get the tone of it completely right. And I think that every minute that Toby Jones is on screen, you think it's his great. It's so brilliant to see him. And obviously the fact that we saw

on the iMac screen, I don't think I've ever seen Toby that big. It was, you know, terrific. Phoebe Walla Bridge, who is bringing these people. This is Dota, which is stretching things, I think. His Goddaughter. Oh, Toby Jones's daughter. Yes, Toby Jones's character's daughter, but she's in his Goddaughter. But the way that set up is essentially because she's his Goddaughter, there is a kind of familial relationship, which means that as they go off on this quest around the world, they can do that family in-fighting, even though she's technically not family, but she's a Goddaughter and there's a whole thing about yeah, oh yeah, because you've been so great as a role model as my Godfather and

where have you been. Meanwhile, behind all of this, like the shark from jaws is correct my pronunciation, because it's tell me how to say that. Mad Magleton. Mad Magleton, as the I'm not an artsy, I am an artsy, I'm not an artsy, but I really am not chewing the scenery, but sucking the scenery. He does this thing with his lips, which is kind of, you know, it is a really, I don't know how, and what it is, but he does something with his hips that looks like he's kind of siphoning bad air into his system.

This kind of poison as presence who has this, this menace, and it isn't kind of shark-like menace. It's sort of quiet and it's floating around in the background. And then you have the set pieces and the set pieces are set pieces. They're not, you know, edge of the sea, heart thumping. That's not what they're about. They're, they are kind of old fashioned. The thing I ended up thinking was, you know, edge of the sea, heart thumping, you know, that's not what they're about. They're, they are kind of old fashioned.

The thing I ended up thinking was, you know, all this really begins with George Lucas thinking about the cereals of the 30s and 40s, the kind of GPB movies, and because when Indiana Jones was, when the first, when the first Raiders of the Lost Ark came out, it was a comparatively cheap movie for Steven Spielberg. I mean, compared to Close Encounter in 1941, it was a comparatively low budget movie. It was a way of him getting back to his roots. Now, these movies are massively huge productions. And yet, oddly enough, no matter how much they end up costing,

in the end, they stand or fall on whether or not you see Indian a part of you goes, oh, and I've said, I have gone back and watched the other, the other Raiders in the Unions movies. And I honestly, I forgive me, I don't think there is great as everyone remembers, but I think that there is still that affection for them because at the time we enjoy, I mean, even at the time they were nostalgic movies, that's nostalgia has been written right into the heart of them. So that was always there. The last act of... Oh, yes, that's what I wanted to mention.

Okay, well, so without, without, what would you say? Well, my heart sank, to be honest, you know, because I agree with everything that you said, Harrison Ford plays you. A fantastic character. because I agree with everything that you said, Harrison Ford plays a fantastic character. I've loved the films, you watched them over many, many decades. He's entitled to a final film, but that final act is so depressingly preposterous that I just, I couldn't wait to,

I just, I thought it was such no come on really oh oh right Jesus is here oh it's not Jesus but it's someone who's like Jesus that was I just thought oh no please anyway others others may were like well yes I mean They were like, well, yes, I mean, it is in the end with the last act, you're either going to go, you know, oh for heavens. It was, yeah. So it is what it is. I mean, it's a, I think it's a, it's a kind of popcorn nostalgia romp and Phoebe Wollough bridge is fun. I think that Harrison Ford carries the movie Toby Jones is terrific.

They lucked out with getting such a good villain. The plot is all over the place. I mean, all over the place, but it does the thing that you expect, you know, there's the chase on the train. There's the chase in the small car. There's the bit with on the train, there's the chase in the small car, there's the thing and then there's the thing and then there's the last guy who isn't Jesus. There's the guy who isn't Jesus, but for all intents and purposes it might as well be. He's like Harrison Ford's Jesus, basically, that's his own personal Jesus by Depeche Mode who we're here in Copenhagen. What Eddie Isard refers to as GZ Cleasy.

Now, to be completely honest, the reason why this take is a little bit shorter than normal, for which apologies is entirely my fault because I genuinely have a plan to catch. So we'll put a bunch of stuff into take two. We'll make up for it promise in future weeks. But for the moment, thank you very much and we'll see you in take two.