Kermode & Mayo’s Take - Jeffrey Wright, Cillian Murphy, American Fiction, Oppenheimer Revisited, The Zone of Interest in & Argylle

Episode Date: February 2, 2024

It’s a bumper week for (lauded) guests! Simon chats to Jeffrey Wright about his Oscar-nominated role in ‘American Fiction’, which tells the story of a Black novelist, frustrated with the establishment that profits from Black entertainment that relies on tired and offensive tropes, who uses a pen name to write an outlandish Black book of his own, only to find himself at the heart of hypocrisy and the madness he claims to disdain; and both Simon and Mark talk to Cillian Murphy about his Oscar-nominated turn as J. Robert Oppenheimer in Christopher Nolan’s eponymous biopic.   Mark gives his thoughts on ‘American Fiction’, along with reviewing Jonathan Glazer’s historical drama ‘The Zone of Interest’, which follows the commandant of Auschwitz, Rudolf Höss, and his wife Hedwig, as they strive to build a dream life for their family in a house and garden next to the camp; and ‘Argylle’, a star-studded spy action-comedy about a reclusive author who writes best-selling espionage novels about a secret agent on a mission to unravel a global spy syndicate only to find that the plots of her books are starting to mirror the covert actions of a real-life spy organisation.   A very glitzy week for you!  Time Codes (relevant only for the Vanguard - who are also ad-free!):  08:15 The Zone of Interest review  22:13 Box Office Top 10  31:29 Jeffrey Wright interview  45:47 American Fiction review  53:41 Laughter Lift  55:44 Cillian Murphy interview  01:07:52 Argylle review  You can contact the show by emailing [e-mail] or you can find us on social media, @KermodeandMayo   EXCLUSIVE NordVPN Deal ➼ https://nordvpn.com/take Try it risk-free now with a 30-day money-back guarantee!  A Sony Music Entertainment production.     Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts and follow us @sonypodcasts    To advertise on this show contact: [e-mail]  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Regular listeners of How to Fail will know how obsessed I am with reality television, and that's why I'm so excited that I get to talk to you about the return of one of my favourite shows. Van der Pomp Rules is back for a brand new season on Hey You, and, well, there's a lot to unpack. I'm frothing with excitement because the Pomp Rules gang is back on our screens with new episodes dropping the same day as the US on Hey You. So great, because with a show this hot, nobody wants spoilers. To sign up to Hey You today,

just visit HeyYou.com. That's H-A-Y-U.com, and you can thank me later. The exciting information which we can bring to you is... Oh, there's exciting information. When we go on holiday next, or more particularly you go on holiday next, the next person who can basically do your job. Right. Well, you know, he has... Why am I being fired? He has revealed himself to us. Like the Lord?

Yes. Okay. He's our taxi driver who we have... Oh, I see, right. Because he has the gift. He has the gift. Definitely has the gift. Wow.

It was... performance art was the phrase that you used. Absolutely. Absolutely was performance art. Anyway, so whilst he's not here, we might as well get on and explain what's on the show. So what are you going to be reviewing in the review section of this podcast? I'm going to be reviewing Argyle,

which is a new film by Matthew Vaughn, The Zone of Interest, which is a new film by Jonathan Glazer, and American Fiction with our special guest guest Jeffrey Wright. But the thing is we haven't done the interview yet, that's going to be done tomorrow, so which is fine. So Mark, so you exactly as normal, you will hear a conversation with Jeffrey Wright, assuming everything happens fine. And then you'll hear Mark reviewing. It's just that Mark won't have heard the Jeffrey Wright interview. And just to be clear, you won't have to wait until tomorrow to

hear this because by the time you hear this, it'll be the day after tomorrow, by which point the interview will have happened. But when we talk about the film, I won't have heard the interview because it won't have happened yet. But by that time, our taxi driver will have just finished his anecdote about how he's a psychic. About how his boot opened in Henden. But he went to the police station and they had the folder with all the passports in it. Also, we're hoping Kili and Murphy's gonna be on this here take because of the fact that that last film he did, did quite well and he's quite good.

I think his career really took off after you and I interviewed him. He definitely won't remember that. He will because you talked him into a corner. You said, are you in the new Batman? And he said, I can't say anything about it. You said, are you in the new Batman? And he said, I can't say anything about it. You said, are you in the new Batman? He said, I can't say anything about it. And you said, are you in the new Batman? He said, look, I've signed a piece of paper. You said, so you are in the new Batman. And he went, oh, but he won't remember that guaranteed. Anyway,

we'll, we'll find out. Also in our extra takes, which have also appeared the weekend watch list, not list, take a look at you decide, what are we going to be doing with this one? So in our extra takes, which have also appeared, the We Can Watch List Not List. Take a leave at you decide, what are we going to be doing with this one? We are also... Oh, take a leave at you decide we're going to be doing a True Detective Night Country. This is my introduction to True Detective. I haven't seen any of the first three series. This is the fourth series starring Jodie Foster.

Days of Heaven Migration, bonus reviews, I believe. Yes. So Days of Heaven is the reissue of the Terrence Malick and migration is a new animation. Mark's favorite feature, Plot Smash. I think he'll get lots of stars for that. I'm doing all right with that so far. I think you definitely are doing it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

No, absolutely. Apple Podcasts is where you can access everything. You can go to extratakes.com for non-fruit-related devices. Also, before we get into the show, a brief public announcement to say we are back on everyone's favourite film-related social platform, Letterboxed. No E at the end. Follow us at Kermode and Mayo and you can track all the films we review each week as well as your suggestions.

Mark's picked for one frame back and a list of Mark's films of the week for 2024. So that's on Letterbox Mark. Make sure you follow that. And just to say, if you find somebody on Letterbox called Mark Kermode, it's not me. Who is it? I've got no idea. It's not me.

Right, so it's Kermod and Mayo is what you want. Kermod and Mayo is fine, because I think that we run the Kermod and Mayo thing, but apparently there's somebody on Letterbox called Mark Kermode, not me. Anyway, if you're already a Vanguard Easter, as always, we really do salute you. We really do salute you. Yes, with correct emphasis.

Yes. Patrick Kenney says, Mark and Simon, long-term list the second time email, a former winner of the Ballymore Eustace Bonny Baby Contest in 1970 and 1971. Wow. In which case, Patrick has, he can say he is just like Bridge over Troubled Water by Simon Garfunkel, which was the best-selling album in 1970 and 1971. Really? So to coincide with that, he was the Bonnie Baby contest winner in those years as well.

Amazing. Also the originator of the itch-stitch-twitch literary panel idea, which I pitched to Simon on a certain hell site not so long ago. Okay, I'm writing to you regarding the subject of people becoming fully immersed in films. My favorite such moment is when my family and I went to a viewing of Paddington too. Paddington was being led into prison.

There was a hush in the cinema, then quietly, out of the back came a small, panicked voice of a child. Where is he? Where is he now? Is that his house? Is he in the house? I have very fond memories of... I love it when you do voices. Well, the thing is, small child, I could have said, where is he? Where is he now? No, no, it was good. It would feel inappropriate. He's like Stephen Frieder in the Harry Potter books. Well done. Thank you. I also have very fond memories of a showing of Rocky Ford, my hometown of Newbridge, way back in the 80s, when the whole cinema erupted for the final bout,

and dozens of children started throwing punches. Cheering Rocky on. Most memorable was a kid who couldn't have been more than nine, standing on his seat, punching the air and shouting, kill him, Rocky, effing kill him. With immersive empathetic power of cinema and down with generally debasing effects of 90% of social media.

I don't know whether you remember this, but when the Warriors first opened in the UK, it was delayed for a while because there were all these councils saying that people would go and see the Warriors in Southgate and immediately turn into violent New York gangs. Yeah, and we go, it New York gangs. Yeah. And we go, it doesn't work like that.

Southgate is always like that. Southgate is always like that. I can say that because I was born in Southgate. I spent an awful lot of my childhood in the Southgate royalty, which then became the Southgate pink elephant, which was nothing like as cool. No, but no, but that's a good,

I can see why people who wouldn't know what they're talking about might think that. Exactly, yes. David in Harpenton. Harpenton, well, I's a good, I can see why people who wouldn't know what they're talking about might think that. Exactly, yes. David in Harpenden. Harpenden, well, I mean, honestly, if they played the Warriors in Harpenden... Harpenden versus Southgate, that would be the grudge match. Dear Murder and Dance Floor, I just wanted to share a truly life-affirming experience I had at the Picture House Central in London. The occasion was a reunion with an old colleague whose relationship had been sustained

and they blossomed over the last five years, him in Manchester, me in Hertfordshire, by regular WhatsApps discussing what we've been watching or what's on our lists, punctuated by the odd call when time allows to check in on other matters such as work, family and general wellbeing. Well, Alan and I, having never been to the cinema together before, had a rollicking time, from agreeing on what a fresh take on the séance sub-genre talk to me was, to violently disagreeing on the innumerable virtues of Paul Mascalle.

The evening was a powerful reminder of the connective tissue that binds us members of the church together. I've always thought of football as possibly the biggest common X going, but I'm re-evaluating its status as the number one social lubricant as I type. The film itself was quite the experience, it was poor things. We both came out agreeing that we needed more time to process what we'd seen, but we're very glad to have seen on the big screen and found it technically very impressive. We also came to a broad consensus to meet once a quarter for communion. It made me very happy to feel

I've now found my film soulmate. So I remember we had a series of emails a while back about the person that you go to the cinema with. Yes. Because you can have a cinema soulmate, who might not be a soulmate in other issues, but there's the person that you go to the cinema with, which then led to people saying about

how they went to the cinema on their own. And then we had a whole sequence about young parents going with their pajamas on. So if it was your turn, so you've got a baby, your turn to go out, you go to the cinema, you put your pajamas on, your clothes on top, then you come home and then when you get undressed, you don't have to disturb anybody

because you've already got your pajamas on. Correspondents at codervay.com, thank you very much indeed for all the emails, get to as many as we can in this take and all the other takes. Let's talk about a movie that is out this week. Yes, this is a film which you've seen and about which you probably know more about the subject matter than I do. So this is The Zone of Interest which is the new film by Jonathan Glazer who made Sexy Beast. We recently reviewed the TV series, the TV prequel to Sexy Beast which I said is very, very unlike the film Sexy Beast Birth Under the Skin, that extraordinary science fiction film with Scarlett Johansson. This is loosely adapted from a 2014 book by Marty Namies which I haven't read. Have you

read the Marty Namies book? Okay fine. So Christian Friedel plays, correct my pronunciation, Rudolf Huss. Well, it's Rudolf Huss. Yes, because it's an O with an Omla. Because a lot of people go, do you mean Rudolf Huss? No, no, no, no. No, no, no, no. A completely different person. Rudolf Huss. Real-life SS officer who was the longest serving common down to Auschwitz was executed in 1947. So the film takes place around the edges of the Holocaust is probably a way of describing it. It doesn't ever take us inside the concentration camp. It takes place in this house next door to the camp,

this house and garden next door to the camp, where Rudolph lives with his family, Sandra Huller, who was got a first Oscar nomination for Anatomy of a Fall. So she's got a best actress nomination. In fact, I think she could have got a supporting actress nomination for this, plays his wife, Hedwig, who is very keen to develop and tend to the dream

home in which she now lives. She's proud of her house, she's proud of the grounds, she's proud of the gardens. She wants her husband to get promotions for their social standing to increase. One day, mother comes to visit and is impressed by the house and the gardens, although alarmed by the proximity to the camp. Here's a clip. It's a very brief clip, but so essentially what they're standing in this garden and she's saying, so that's the camp wall. So yes, it's just there anyway. We've been doing all this sort of flowers and stuff, but it's just there.

She's just deflecting the whole time because her mum is going, really? Yeah, it's really that close. The film is up for five Oscars for Glaze of a Best Directing in Adapted Screenplay along with Best Film, international film and best sound. The sound is really important because you don't see the atrocities in the camp. You hear them. You hear them as a sort of background noise, something that's happening

just beyond the edge of the frame, but you don't see it happening. Glazer has talked about this and said it's like what's happening in the camp is almost the other film or arguably the film, that this is all going on beyond the frame. And there's also a very, very sparse score by Mikhailivi and I love their work. I think Mikhailivi is a really interesting composer, but they wrote music for the film that was then hugely paired back

to the point that what we now have is a sort of prologue. We have music at the beginning and some at the end and then we have some sort of sound escapes during the film. But the film itself isn't in any way sort of adorned by music. It's a very, very sparse, very bleak, very kind of chilling, you know, sound space. I think for the thing that's really, well I mean there's so many things about the film that make it powerful. One of the things, apparently Jonathan Glazer set cameras in the house. He described it like in the way they would do in Big Brother so that when the people were acting in the house they could do a lot of it, you know, moving

around quite naturally within the house. So there's almost a kind of documentary feel sometimes to the way that the acting happens. But it's also a very, very studied, very precise, the frame is very particular, the way in which things are framed. It's not, there's nothing kind of casual or handheld about it. It's all very, very formal. I think the best way of describing it, it's like a study of looking away.

It is a portrait of life going on in inverted commas normally side by side with something that is absolutely unspeakable. And I was reminded of, I went to Berlin, I'm going back to Berlin quite soon, the Holocaust Memorial in Berlin, which is this strange thing when you walk into it, there are these low walls, like a maze, you walk in and the walls are very, very low down. And then suddenly the next thing you know is that the walls are really big and you down. And then suddenly the next thing you know is that the walls are really big and you've walked into this thing

that you're completely trapped by, but you almost didn't notice it was happening. And the juxtaposition of kind of quotidian life and unspeakable horror is what's happening in the film. It's also a portrait of kind of seeping, growing corruption that a man whose whole life becomes the simple mechanics of killing. And there's a scene later on in which he talks about,

he looked at a room of people and all he could think of was how fast could they be killed? And it's a film about complicity. And I think the fact of it's horrible everyday quality makes it worse. People talk sometimes about the banality of evil, which is the great thing. I don't think this is the banality of evil. I think it's the kind of screaming, silent horror of indifference or callousness.

And I was reminded of when Son of Saul came out, one of the interesting things about Son of Saul is because it's all shot in very close on the central actor's face, the atrocities of the camp, you do see them, but they're glimpsed at the side, to the side of the frame and Claude Lansman talked about how that was a, you know, possibly a way of, you know, the fact that you can approach this subject through fiction and drama. And I think maybe it's, maybe you can only look at something this terrible from the side. You know, it's like sometimes you can't look at something straight on and maybe looking to the side of it is actually more powerful. I found it very chilling. Now, you know about Huss. Yeah, at uni, I did, for one of the courses I was taking,

I read a book called, it was by Lucy Davidovits, who's a great Jewish historian, and it was called The War Against the Jews. And in there, it had a lot of comment about Rudolf Huss, and he was required to write a diary, because he was arrested and then hanged at Nuremberg. And it's because of his diary that I think this story is there and that this film is made.

Because in the diary, he is completely inadvertent commas normal. He loves his family, he loves his children, he loves animals, he hates cruelty to animals. It is, in that respect, a perfectly ordinary life that you can relate to. And then as we see in the film, he gets on a horse and he rides into Auschwitz and we know what's going on there. So I think it's the... Yes, and the horses are...

It's huge, but... Strange detail. It's a... It's very disconcerting, but it's a... I thought it was brilliant, precisely because he was so disconnected and cold about... I mean, when we see him in his house, it's an ordinary house with ordinary kids going, you know, losing things and... And playing and... Playing and going in the river and all that. But it's because we know what he's doing when he goes to work, which makes the whole thing increasingly oppressive as we go through. Can I just ask you about the, I don't know,

the storybook sequences or the kind of the dream sequences? Yes, in which you see a character sort of coming in and hiding food, yeah? Yes. Yeah, I just want to, because people go, oh, I wonder what this is gonna do. Well, yeah, I mean, those sequences are strange, but there's something going on there about a kind,

is it a glimmer of hope? Is it a sort of fairy tale? I mean, I thought it was during the nighttime that the food was being plugged, well, that is what's happening, but you see it in almost like a kind of, like a sort of sort of semi fairy tale environment. I mean, I, to be honest with you, I didn't question it. I thought it was, I thought it was just some kind of glimmer of something because it's so oppressive. It's so oppressive

being in that house with this. And I said, I think the soundscape is the thing that- No, it absolutely is. You have to listen to what's going on. Did you have a problem with those sort of storybook sequences? No, I thought it was slightly out of, precisely because it had felt very documentary as you mentioned. Yes.

That suddenly it was doing something else, which is quite entitled to do. Yeah, I mean, I don't, I don't, I mean, it didn't take me out of the story. I don't think I was entirely sure exactly stylistically what was happening, but I thought that it was, it didn't diffuse the spell of the film for me,

which is, you know, which is oppressive. And I think Sandra Huller is brilliant. I think she's absolutely brilliant in it. And I, you know, I thought her performance was utterly believable and quietly chilling. Also taps into the conversation which we've had a number of times

about other similar movies about monsters and how if you're portrayed as a monster on television or in a movie, it sort of isn't good enough because Rudolph Hearst is not, he does monstrous things, but he's not a monster because we see him at home being normal. He needs a deeper explanation which you are forced to come out and try and come to terms with. Also I think we should say because next week Steve McQueen is, I think, is coming on the programme is that right and is coming on to talk about the program is that right? And it's coming on to talk about his new film, Occupied City, which again is about the Holocaust. And I do think it's

really important that these stories continue to be told and it continues to be brought back into your immediate consciousness. You know, it's, zone of interest is not an easy watch, nor should it be, but I think it is right and good that this story is being constantly retold. So the movie is Zone of Interest. Do you think it's the kind of movie that will win awards or is it just the kind of movie that is nominated for that?

My suspect, well, I think a best sound, I think it does have a shot at because the soundscape is really brilliantly designed. Then again, I remember interviewing Walter Merch, who had done The Conversation, which was Oscar nominated, and The Conversation got the most unbelievable soundscape, but they lost to Earthquake.

So bear in mind, awards not always the smartest decisions. You surprised me. Still to come later on in this year take. We're going to be reviewing Argyle, which is a new film by Matthew Vaughan, and American Fiction. And you'll be hearing from from its star. We'll be back in just a moment. Simon and Mark here with another message from our good friends NordVPN. You know me, Simon, I always love hearing from NordVPN.

What do the top guys have to say this time? Well, let's recap on what we know so far, shall we? Yes, I'd love to. We all know that NordVPN can help you watch your favorite TV shows and films that aren't available in your country. Which is fantastic, obviously. But did you know that NordVPN can also act as your cyber bodyguard? Well, shoot me down.

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is there anything those guys can't do? So remember, NordVPN not only allows you to access TV shows and films not available in your country, but also gives you great peace of mind whilst online. And to top it off, one NordVPN account can be used across six devices. To grab our huge discount off your NordVPN plan, go to NordVPN.com slash take.

Our link will also give you extra months on the two-year plan. Plus, there's no risk with Nord's 30-day money-back guarantee. The link is in the podcast episode description box. Mark, doesn't it seem like everyone is either starting a side hustle or becoming their own boss? Well, now that you mention it, yes, it does seem like that, Simon. And you know what they're hearing a lot? Why, it's the sound of a cash register doing that ca-ching noise. In other words, it's the sound of another sale on Shopify, the all-in-one commerce platform to start, run and grow your business. Shopify is the commerce platform revolutionizing millions of businesses worldwide. Whether you're selling herringbone jackets or rare copies of the Exorcist on DVD, Shopify

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Okay, so box office top 10 in just a moment. First of all, Ken Robertson Chain, secondary school music teacher from East Kilbride. First time emergency mail, a short term listener here currently emailing from my stationary parked car with a sleeping toddler. Just wanted to write in, as she starts off by saying, dear boring man one and boring man two. That's us, brother. Want to say a big thank you for the dual role you're playing in the life of our little family.

For a long time, your witterings have been the accompaniment to my cooking, commute, running and general pottering about. But since the arrival of our little boy, you have taken on a new role. He's been a terrible sleeper. And as I know many parents do, we have been known to give in

and utilize a car nap for everyone's sanity. During said car naps, I've always put on the podcast as the free time I once had to listen has diminished. And I like to keep up to date with all the films that need to be added to the growing list of films we haven't managed to watch over the last two years. However, recently we've started to employ the podcast as a signal to an overtired refusing to sleep toddler that it really

is time to nap. As such, we have been known to say the boring men are on its sleepy time... So we're like the telly tubbies basically. And lo and behold, before we know, he's out. So I just want to say a huge thank you for your wittering, for wittering our little sleep thief to sleep and keeping us entertained whilst he does. Oh, and apologies for referring to you as the boring men. But in comparison to the stick song from Hey Duggy that's played on repeat in the car, if you know, you know, it's quite a contrast. So here we go. We could, we could have a whole new business in sleep apps. Yes.

We could just talk boringly and your children would just go, pfft. I think we do that quite effectively anyway. Ken, thank you very much for getting in touch. I also like the fact that it was referred to as the stationary parked car, as opposed to what, the moving parked car?

Well, it's just underlining, I think, and emphasizing the legality of this. There is a story, isn't there was a there's a family Who fell asleep at the traffic lights? Yes. That's it's a friend of a friend of mine's a family with with new kids Completely exhausted They've been to the shops get in the car Pull up at a red light and everyone falls asleep and the first thing they know is they're being honked I'm I guess you can be you can be stationary, but not parked pull up at a red light and everyone falls asleep. And the first thing they know is they're being honked by a man.

I guess you can be stationary but not parked. You can be in a traffic jam or in the lights. But you can't be parked but not stationary. No, that's true. Anyway, box office top 10 at 35, Jack Dore. I quite enjoyed it. And you know, it's that movie but with with added motocross and it's very stylishly done and the sequence at the beginning in the canoe really gave me the chills.

At 27, Samsara. Which is a film which has a moment in the middle of it, 15 minutes in which you are invited to close your eyes and experience the film with your, honestly, although you're not saying anything, the way in which you're not saying anything is speaking volumes. It's a festival favorite and I enjoyed it.

Festival favorite is good. Number 11 is Baghead. Nothing like a scary as a horror film. Not scary and a horror film, so disappointment. Aidan says, I'm writing to inform you that last night in Gloucester, I had the most terrifying experience in a cinema watching Baghead.

Really? Never before have I feared for the life of another person as they were being choked by an unknown force. I'm not talking about the film, I'm talking about the woman in the audience who suddenly started walking down the steps, choking on something. Fortunately, there was a gentleman nearby who performed the Heimlich maneuver on her and she was saved.

It would be difficult for any horror film to live up to the fear of someone's actual life being in danger, but Baghead was particularly not up to the task. Despite its one jump scare. Still, it was better than Night's Whip. Which I still haven't seen Night's Whip. I don't think you're going to be tempted to either. Number 10 is the beekeeper. He's keeping bees. He's going to kill someone with a chair, the steith.

I enjoyed it. Number nine is One Life. Again, I will draw attention to the fact that we've had males from people saying at the end of the film, everyone sat in silence, which I think is the to the fact that we've had males from people saying at the end of the film Everyone sat in silence, which I think is the strongest review of that movie. Yeah, I think and we've got more on that later Okay, fine, right color purple is it number eight So this is the film of the musical of the of the color purple not not the re not really so the sting for you Alan Potter says I watched Spielberg's color purple for a project about a year ago And while I thought it was very well made and well acted,

I too thought the heavier moments were not given enough weight in the film. I come out of this new musical with pretty much the same feelings. I know musicals can deal with serious subjects, starving orphans in workhouses, leading to lives of crime, gang-related murders on the streets of New York,

but incest, rape, teenage pregnancies, arranged marriages, domestic abuse, psychological trauma, and family... At this point in this email, I'm thinking of the email that we just had trying to get the toddler to sleep, but anyway, I apologize. Family abandonment are not the sort of things I find myself tapping my toes and clicking my fingers to. It was quite telling, I thought, that the filmmakers seemed to agree with me. They didn't really have any songs in those moments and tried to keep it light instead. I like this slightly less than the 1985 version and the seriousness

of the subject just works better for me as a straight drama. Yes, I mean, I think it is, as I said when I was reviewing it, it is just unusual for this story to be told as a musical. That said, the stage musical was a big success. This obviously hasn't set the box office on fire, going in at number eight. I think I'd expected it to do better than that because I think, you know, it's well-played and it's well-designed and the music is well done. But there is no getting beyond the fact that it is a strange thing to do for a musical. And certainly, if anyone was worried about the Spielberg film taking the harsh edges off the drama, then this does so and then some.

And it's number 20 in America, so. Seven is Fighter. Okay, so Fighter hasn't been press screened. It is an Indian Hindi language action film. If anybody has seen it, send us a review. The Holdovers is at number six. I loved the Holdovers. I can't get over the fact that they didn't,

I can't get over the fact that they held it over until January. Thank you very much here all week. I guarantee you this will become a Christmas staple in future years. But if you get a chance to see it in February, then do so. See it at any time of the year, you know. Poor things is at number five.

Well, I'm just a huge fan. I love the score. Congratulations to Joe Confendrix for getting nominated for best original score. I think Amazon is fantastic. I think Yorgos Lanthimos's direction is everything you want from Yorgos Lanthimos. And yeah, I mean, we've had correspondents.

Some people really take against it. Some people have really, really embraced it. I'm on the really, really embraced it side. Number four is Anyone But You, which I still haven't seen, but I need to because it's Will Glark. Number three here, number three in the States is Wonka. Still in there in it. It's the eighth week.

Number two here is All of Us Strangers. How great to see All of Us us strangers going in at number two, because it's absolutely wonderful, moving, just heartbreaking. I had a conversation with my therapist just yesterday about the use of Always On My Mind, which is not something that I expected to come up in a therapy session.

So email from Cara Adams from little old Newlin in Cornwall. Little old Newlin, grand Newlin. I'm just saying that's what Cara is saying. Hello Ol Newlin in Cornwall. Lil' Ol Newlin, Grand Newlin. I'm just saying that's what Cara is saying for me. Hello. Hello, you wonderful humans. I'd only just started listening back in November with Saltburn being my first episode. Wow.

Bad I know, but I adore, admire and aspire to be Emerald Fennel. You are now my oracles. This film was a true testimony to love, family and trauma. I am in awe of Andrew Hague and the entire cast. Knowing the film was adapted from a Japanese ghost story, I was unsure on how this was going to be shown on screen. Some ghost stories are a bit laborious and tiresome, but Andrew has done it perfectly. Breathtaking, beautiful, true, touching, heartwarming, heart wrenching, funny, sad, happy, adoring.

I felt it all. It was a true journey. I was a wreck when the pair of love blared through the speakers and just couldn't move for a solid 10 minutes after the screen went blank, which is why I commented on our other correspondents about the films where you just want to sit there. I had to just sit and process everything I just witnessed. With January already producing some incredible films, Paul Things, Holdover's Priscilla, One Life, it was stiff competition, but Andrew Hague and Cast have knocked it out the park.

Thank you, Cara. Rachel in Edinburgh. I saw all of The Strangers on Friday night and did something I've never done before, immediately booked another ticket for Saturday night. This is Cinema at its best. It's a film about what we are and what we can be and what we can't, about our limitations and needs and fundamental, completely human inability to deal with the weight of loss. It's about so much, but it's about grief and family and love and memory and arrested development and probably a hundred more things. I felt ripped in half by the end in a good way. I'm not quite, which is... I know it is. I've heard Andrew Scott say

you'll probably get something more from the film if you're gay and while I think so much here is profoundly universal, it's the specificity to the queer experience that makes the film remarkable for me. The unbearable weight of saying the unsaid, both from him and from his parents, is unique in this scenario, something every LGBT person will know, but the core of it is an experience omnipresent for humanity. Thank you. Rachel. It does remind me that when you did that interview with Andrew Hague, which you can listen to on last week's podcast He said because you told him a story about you having a dream about your dad

Yeah And he said so many people have done that have come up to me and said the film spoke to me about that particular thing and It is fascinating that a Japanese ghost story that has been previously adapted for the cinema as a Japanese film called Discarnate which if anyone is interested do check it out. It's a very different telling of the story. But the universe, the universality of it is that anyone can experience those feelings. And I think the Andrew Hague's film really has tapped into a universal nerve. Yeah. And our correspondent is right, January has been, this is Cara from Newland.

January's been pretty good. Yes, I mean, technically it's because we're in awards corridor. So, you know, they- Is that what it is? It's called the awards corridor. Yeah, it is, yeah. So it is something that happens and it's kind of,

it's at once great and also sometimes frustrating because it will sometimes mean that in any one week you'll suddenly find two or three really fascinating releases, whereas somewhere further down the calendar you might get a week in which, you know, hey, be thankful for the beekeeper. If you're doing Dry January, January does go on forever. And the reason is you're in awards corridor. That's right, yes, it's a long corridor. It goes on forever. And the reason is you're in awards corridor. It's a long corridor. Number one is Mean Girls.

The interesting thing about Mean Girls is that when it was originally made, they had planned it to only have a Paramount Plus release. And it ended up in cinemas because their test screenings had gone better than expected. And there it is, number one in the box office. So, you know, what's that old phrase? In Hollywood, no one knows anything. And there's your proof. We'll be back in just a moment,

and Geoffrey Wright's going to be our guest coming up. MUSIC This episode is brought to you by Mubi, a curated streaming service dedicated to elevating great cinema from around the globe. From iconic directors to emerging auteurs, there is always something new to discover. And here's some exciting MUBI-related news. Yes, well, on the subject of iconic directors, Perfect Days is in UK cinemas on February 23rd from Mubi. This is the highly anticipated Return to Fiction feature filmmaking from

Vin Wenders who made Paris Texas and Wings of Desire which I know you absolutely love. So that is something to look forward to. Also on Mubi in the UK is the series First Films First. A director's first film can provide the roadmap for an entire of our series of directorial debuts revisits the films that launch the careers of some of cinema's finest auteurs. Including Justin Trayette, who made the film which you absolutely loved, An Idea 2, An Atomive, A Fall, Age of Panic, and of course Reservoir Dogs by an unknown director who went on to make some other things as well.

Never heard of him. You can try Movie Free for 30 days at MUBI.com slash Kermit and Mayo, that's MUBI.com slash Kermit and Mayo for a whole month of great cinema for free. Hello, takers. It's Ben Bailey-Smith here, subteacher of The Take, and this episode is brought to you by Bear Help.

Now, something we often forget is that relationships are not always easy going. I mean, we know that, but we often think that if they aren't easy, then they aren't right. But of course, that's not always easy going. I mean, we know that, but we often think that if they aren't easy, then they aren't right. But of course, that's not always the case. You know, relationships work when both people bring as much as they can to the table. And that could be colleagues, friends,

or of course, significant others. And therapy can be a really positive place to work through those challenges. Now, I've used better help, and it's helped me do exactly that. Set boundaries, be the best version of myself I can be and be better in my relationships. It's a great option because it's totally online, it's convenient, it's flexible, a suit's a busy schedule. So if you're thinking of starting therapy, trust me, give BetterHelp a try. They've got access to thousands of

UK mental health professionals with a wide variety of expertise and no referral needed. And check this out, our listeners get 10% of their first month at betterhelp.com slash Kerr mode. That's better H-E-L-P.com slash Kerr mode. Now, our first guest today, because we're going to have two guests because Killian Murphy is on the way, is an Emmy Tony and Golden Globe Award winning actor. He's just added an Oscar nomination to his list of accolades with the film Award winning actor. He's just added an Oscar nomination to his list of accolades with the film American Fiction. Here's of course, Jeffrey Wright,

and you'll hear from him after this clip from the movie. Wait a minute, why are these books here? I'm not sure. I would imagine that this author, Ellison, is black. That's me, Ellison. Yeah. He is me, and he and I are black. Oh, bingo.

No bingo, Ned. These books have nothing to do with African American studies. They're just literature. The blackest thing about this one is the ink. I don't decide what sections the books go in, and no one here does. That's how chain stores work. Right. And you don't make the rules. I'm just gonna put them back after you leave.

Don't you dare Ned. Do not you dare. That is a clip from American Fiction. I'm delighted to say we've been joined by star Jeffrey Wright. Jeffrey, hello, good afternoon, how are you, sir? I'm well, I'm well. Thanks for having me, Simon. And congratulations on the Oscar nomination for Best Actor, five nominations for this picture.

There must be a spring in your step every morning. Sure. You know, it's very good. It's better than the alternative, not to be appreciated, certainly. And it's really gratifying that our peers have seen our film and think that we've done some pretty good work.

So yeah, it's wonderful. It's wonderful. So I want to compliment you and your movie without sounding like I'm one of the tone deaf people in your film Well, yeah, have at it Okay, so I really enjoyed your film and I thought you were terrific They're the word they're the words that I've come up with Introduces to Monk introduces to so Thelonious Ellison is his name monkeys what he's referred to as throughout the picture.

Introduce us to him and tell us as much as you can about him. Well, he's a writer, also a professor of English at a university in California. He's his own man. He writes from a perspective that is his own. He wants to be creatively and intellectually free, but the things that he writes about aren't necessarily the things that audiences want to read.

So he writes things that are maybe a bit esoteric, or as is shown in the film, maybe not considered to be things that he should be writing about, things that are not quite black enough. So out of frustration, he decides to write a novel that is for the masses, an urban novel that he thinks will show up the hypocrisy of the publishing world.

And so he does. And under an assumed name, the name of Staggar Lee, which is a reference to this pimp caricature of the 19th century in America. And lo and behold, this novel becomes the bestselling of his career and blows up. And he's off on this kind of crazy adventure in which that character that he created, kind of like Frankenstein, turns around to consume him in a way. Meanwhile, his family is falling apart crisis after crisis. His mother is ailing and he's asked to be the adult

inside the room of his house and be caretaker to his mother and help kind of salvage the family. And so there are any number of pressures working on him and he's at the middle trying to make his way through it all. And at the same time, you know, the film has quite a bit of laughs as he does. Oh yeah, and that's certainly true. So there's social commentary in Sata, which I want to come back to, but it's that family life from reading other interviews that you've done, Jeffrey,

that you seem to be really particularly proud of as a story that we don't see. And certainly it's not the way the movie's been advertised, actually, I don't think, but so it's kinda like two stories or a fully enriched character that we're watching here. Yes, well, the thrust of the story is his journey as a writer and the escapades that he finds himself inside as a result of, you know,

making this choice to lead this dual life. And that thrust leads us to a far less absurd aspect of the film, to the more human side of the film, which is found within the portrait of this family, which is a family like any family, a bit messy, a bit loving, functional and dysfunctional, but together in spite of itself. And it's that family, I think, that provides in some ways

an answer to the misperception of who this man is. Really, he's just a man who's dealing with the things that every other person in a situation such as his would be responding. He's leading this ordinary human life that's complex that for me as an actor, I'd not been asked to play before. I'd never had an opportunity before to be a part of such a wonderfully interesting and beautiful at the end of the day, at least to my eyes, family.

It's something that we rarely see. And so what the film is trying to do is argue that there's a broader humanity in the representation of characters, such as myself, of black life, not only in film or in the publishing world, but generally in terms of the misperceptions very often preconceptions of who we are. And it's shown, again, as a foil to the absurdity, almost tragic absurdity of the satirical side of the film

through the portrait of the Ellicens. You said it's the most personal film that you've ever made, and I think you've hinted at the reason why there, just talking about the overlap of this family into the way everyone is going to relate to this film. But could you explain just a bit more about what you meant about why this was such a personal film for you? Well, my character finds himself at that point in his life where the youthful delusions that

suggest that life gets easier as you get older are completely done away with. I found myself at that point when this script arrived to me. My mom had passed away a little over a year prior. I had the great good fortune of being raised by my mother and her eldest sister, who's now 94 years old. And she came to live with me and my kids in New York. The pandemic set in. As all of us experienced, there were enormous pressures by that, but also as well by the passing of my mom

and the void that she left. And now the responsibility to be caretaker to my aunt, whom I love dearly was just a lot of pressures all of a sudden being exerted. And so I understood the ways in which that asks sacrifices of a person. And so I felt a kinship with the challenges, with this character and the, you know, relative to the challenges that he faced.

And I also understood the pressures from the other side of the film, if you will, the misperceptions, the preconceptions, the attempts to limit his creative freedom. I don't complain. I think I've done pretty well in kind of circumnavigating those in my career. You know, I've done work that I love, proud of, but I understand the nature and the sources of those pressures. So yeah,

there was a lot that I felt an alignment with. But what's wonderful about the film, again, going back to the family side, yes, there's a universality to that, but also there's a universality to this idea of being misperceived. I think all of us, in our own ways, at times, have not felt seen for our authentic selves. That doesn't simply relate to being a black man in America, that relates to being a human in any space at times. And so again, there's a universality to that side of the film and audience members who I've spoken with have responded to that, even if they don't happen to be black and male as I am.

There's a scene which, as far as the publishing side of the story seemed to be at the heart of the movie. And I'm paraphrasing here, but you are sitting at a table with another writer played by Issa Rae. And she's reading a book and you're eating a very noisy salad, which is the noisiest salad ever in a movie, I think. And you say to her,

are you not fed up with black people being shown in books in poverty and rapping and being murdered by the police? We're more than this. And you basically say she's writing black trauma porn. And she says, you've got an issue with white people. Something like that anyway, but it's a fantastic scene. Is that the heart of the publishing side of the story?

I think that is the thesis argument of the film and we were building up from the first day of filming to that scene. We understood Cor Jefferson and I, who adapted this screenplay from a book by Percival Everett called A Racer. We were really building up to that scene because there is a kind of clarifying moment that happens within the scene.

And it's not as expected in that my character, Monk is challenged. His perspective is challenged by Issa Rae's character, Sintara Golden, whom he wants to dismiss but I think learns that she may be just as smart and as savvy as he is. And he's also not the most reliable narrator necessarily. One of the things that we wanted to insist upon was that our film not be a kind of classist take on issues of representation. We didn't wanna be dismissive, we didn't wanna be exclusive.

We're just suggesting that the range can be broadened. But in that moment, it's not clear who's argument is actually the more truthful or the more accurate. But rather, it seems that the thesis lies somewhere on the table in between them in some type of synthesis of their two perspectives. Again, we're not trying to answer all the questions in this film, that was never the intent. The idea was to raise maybe more interesting questions

around kind of thorny issues that center on race and representation and identity, which is part of a conversation that's being had in many parts of the world right now. It's worth mentioning, you mentioned Cord Jefferson who wrote and directed. It's his debut, I think, as a director. This is quite a calling card.

Yes, well, Cord is a sharp guy and it was clear from the script that he wrote that he's a wonderful communicator, wonderful writer. He's also a wonderful leader. Very few groups, powers that be, wanted to make our film. Orion Pictures was at the front of this, and a group called MRC and T Street. They were the only groups in Hollywood who would touch our film. Loved the script, loved, you know, me, they said,

but yeah, don't love it all enough to finance it. But Cord had the vision and the tenacity to get this film made. That speaks to the quality of his leadership. And so when I met him, when I read his script, it was clear to me that he could do this. And so he did. Yeah, wonderful debut. Well, I wish you all the best for the award season. Jeff, it's very nice to speak to you.

My only disappointment is that I read that despite coming from Washington DC, you're an Arsenal supporter, whereas clearly Tottenham Hotspur was the correct choice for you to make when you were in London. But anyway, I'll forgive you for that. Ah, yeah, that's that's that's rough. Yeah, but unfortunately, I'm going to miss the match on Sunday because I'll be otherwise at a fat, you know, with the film. Can't win them all, but Jeffrey Wright, a pleasure to speak to you and all the best for the Oscars. Thank you so much for talking to us. Thank you, yeah.

Hope we win Sunday. I hope you don't actually, there you go. There you go. Ha ha ha ha ha ha. Jeffrey Wright talking about his new movie, American Fiction, which I enjoyed it, in obviously anyway, and it's easy to see. It's a very likable film.

I wanted more of the publishers because there's some truths being spoken there. Well, look, let's just begin this by saying if you're listening to the podcast, which you are doing. Oh yeah, we should say this. Yes. So you've just heard an interview with Jeffrey Wright, which went really well.

It was funny. It was witty. What was your favorite bit? I really enjoyed the thing when you asked him about his favorite potted plant. Yes. And he gave you such an interesting answer that they had to cut it out.

We have taken, we've had, yes. Unfortunately, just for time reasons. Yes, because it's normally what happens is all the interviews are done before the program is recorded. For this particular program, it's probably awards congestion. It's the awards corridor Awards Corridor. Corridor is very congested.

Yeah, it is. We're getting towards the end of the corridor, which means that the chat, which you've just heard, Mark has not heard. Because it hasn't happened yet. Because it hasn't happened yet. And also, you haven't heard it either. Because I haven't done it.

Neither of us have heard it yet. In fact, it might not even exist as far as we can. It's just like a Christopher Nolan movie, isn't it? That's right. It's like Tenet. So, you know, you've just heard the interview that we haven't done, that I haven't heard that Simon hasn't Yes, all these things so

So now a breath tell us about the film mark And if I'm repeating anything that he said, I'm sorry, but I'm at least repeating it in advance So this is an adaptation of a 2001 novel erasure by Percival Everett It's the film is written and directed by Kord Jefferson in their directorial debut. Got five nominations at the Oscars. Again, you may have covered this best picture, best actor for Jeffrey Wright,

supporting actor for Sterling K. Brown, adapted screenplay and best score for Laura Cartman, who disappointingly is the only female composer nominated. Once again, I'm sorry to bang on about this, but they really do need to sort out that section because there have been so many fantastic schools by women this year. It's almost like, they say, yeah, well,

we nominated a woman once and we let somebody win once, so now can we move on? So Wright is Monk, Thelonious Monk Ellison, who is a black presser in LA, who is also an author. His books are respected, but they get very little success. And as you heard from the clip at the beginning of the interview, which I did hear the clip, and the interview. Very funny clip.

They're all put over in that section. Why? Well, because I imagine that this author is black. This author is black. This author is me, as he says. And then he goes to move his books, because he says there's nothing to do with that particular, just because that's who I am.

I've moved my books. Have you? Yes. I've done the thing about taking my book off a bookshelf when it's sideways and putting it front facing, of course. Put it on the best seller table. Exactly. So his books are respected but little success. He then sees this up and coming, you know, Johnny Cumm-Late, the author, Centaur Golden, played by Issa Rae, being celebrated for a book called Wee's Lives in D'Agetto, which is, we hear a reading from it, which just sounds like it's absolutely full of stereotypes, which is exactly

what he thinks. He says, what is that? It's just reproducing stereotypes. It's ridiculous. And in response to that ridiculousness, he ghost writes a book called My Pathology, which then deals with pathology. Pathology, not just me, Ms. Brunner, I'll let you have it spelled. And it has all those sort of same stereotypes. It's promptly picked up by the publishers who are excited by this. They think, oh, this is an exciting proposition. It's going to be anonymous. So he creates an author who becomes a former convict, Stag R. Lee. Get it? Yes. Yes. At this point, you think he's springtime for Hitler? Precisely so. And then what follows is a very smart satire with some terrific performances, lovely effective score, incidentally, and a very nice line in dramatizing the writing process.

You as somebody who is a writer can tell me whether or not you actually do envisage characters playing out in front of you, but it's very hard to do anything about writing, isn't it? Yeah. I thought they did that fantastically. Yeah. So all that stuff is good. And Wright and Stonokay Brown spot on. I like the way that it takes potshots at the Sort of you know stereotypes it also kind of wrong foots your expectations to some extent and there are if you've ever

Had any contact with the publishing world, which I understand is a fairly small niche thing But if you have I do think the stuff about editors and publishers and media influencers and all that kind of stuff Even though it's you know, it's it's exaggerated satire. There is more than a kernel of truth in it, isn't there? Yes, yes, I think so and and as you heard in the interview although you didn't hear haven't you I spent most of my time Talking about wanting to say very nice things about the movie But not wanting to sound like some of the terrible obsequious things about the movie but not wanting to sound like some of the terrible obsequious ghastly white people in this film. Yes, and in fact I believe that will have been in one of your opening questions, won't

it? Because you told me that to me last night, which was actually last night, that did happen when I was having a cup of tea at your house. I do have reservations and here are my reservations. I think all that stuff about the publishing, about that book being a success or I'm going to write this book, I'm going to create this character, it's going to become a huge success. I think all that stuff about the publishing about, you know, that book being a success or I'm gonna write this book I'm gonna create this character is gonna become a huge success. I think all that's good I am far less interested when the film decides to broaden that palette and to become a more expansive and slightly

Tender family drama. There's a romance. There's the relationship with his mother. There's all this sibling stuff going in. And now look, the fact that the film has got a best picture nomination means that for some people, that broadening worked. Because generally, to get a best picture nomination, you know, you have to please a wide audience. So it's almost like, okay, we've broadened it out. We've got a best picture nomination. So, Kermode, you can shut up, because it's done what we thought it was going to do. The problem for me is that I think that all that stuff

takes the edge off the stuff that I like. So the stuff about the publishing, the satirical stuff is good, but it loses its bite. And it actually, if anything, even becomes a little bit trite when it gets into the other areas of just being a more kind of broadly humanist observational comedy. And I think what happened for me was I went in with very high expectation because I know a couple of people had seen it, really, really liked it and I liked the score very much because I've been playing that on

Scarlet. And I thought it started really well. I thought the cast were great. I thought all that stuff again. And then I think it loses its way. And it's kind of ironic that in a story about how in order to become a success, you have to sell out. It's not that this sells out, but I think it sells itself short by sort of moving off into these other areas,

which as I say, hands up, the film's got a best picture nomination. It's clearly working for some people. It worked for me. And I think one of the reasons is he's such a button down character. Yes. That it explains a little bit about his family,

but it also crucially gives you a reason why financially he needs to make this compromise. Yes, but I think that that is a plot point rather than a... Is there no point of you that thinks that the film would have been improved by being more about the publishing and less about the family? No, not necessarily. I mean, if it had been all about the publishing, I might have thought I'd like to know... I don't know, I just think he's such an intriguing character. I think he's great. And I think the performance incidentally is terrific. And when we did the thing for The Observer a few weeks ago about who should be nominated,

yes, absolutely, Jeffrey Wright and Sterling Cabra absolutely should both be nominated, because what they do is terrific. It's more to do with, I think, it's a format of the film that the film, to me, felt like it started really sharp and then became slightly fuzzy. Okay, very good. Well, fortunately, I couldn't put that point to Jeffrey because we've already done the interview.

We've already done the interview. But I thought it was rocking. Anyway, so... Don't get me wrong, it's a really good film, and there's so much to enjoy, not least the performances. Adds in a minute, but first Mark, let's step with gay abandon into our laughter lift. Oh dear. We're not going to be in for very long, so you can find...

Okay, fine, great, we're only going up a few floors. That's right. Hey Mark, hello son. How do you think the unthinkable? I don't know. With a Neithberg? Oh! See? Good. Hey, Mark, how do you get four elephants in a fee at 500?

Oh, well, that's the same. Two in the front, two in the back. How do you know when there are eight elephants in an Italian church? There are two fee at 500 parked outside. Anyway, we're going to be back after this. Is that it? Yeah, that's it. I told you it was brief, just half a floor. Were you short of time, Simon Paul? Unless you're a Vanguard Easter, in which case we have just one question.

What weighs the same as an apricot? Academy is a new scripted podcast that follows Ava Richards, played by HBO's industries Myhalla Harald, a brilliant scholarship student who has to quickly adapt to her newfound, eat-or-be-eaten world. Ava's ambitions take hold and her small-town values break in hopes of becoming the first scholarship student to make the list. Bishop Gray is all coveted academic top ten, curated by the headmaster himself. But after realizing she has no chance at the list on her own, she reluctantly accepts an invitation to a secret underground society

that pulls the strings on campus life and academic success. If she bends to their will, she'll have everything she's ever dreamed of. But at what cost? Academy takes you into the world of a cutthroat private school where power, money, and sex collide creator and host of How to Fail. It's the podcast that celebrates the things in life that haven't gone right and what, if anything, we've learned from those mistakes to help us succeed better. Each week, my guests share three failures, sparking intimate, thought-provoking and funny

conversations. You'll hear from a diverse range of voices, sharing what they've learned through their failures. Join me Wednesdays for a new episode each week. This is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. Listen now wherever you get your podcasts. So what weighs the same as an apricot? Another apricot.

The answer is the entire internet. What? That's the weight of all the electrons in the electricity required to make the internet work. What? Assuming 75 to 100 million servers supporting the internet are not including the home PCs running it. But the whole of the internet weighs an apricot.

Sorry, do electrons have weight? Yes, but the actual information in it weighs less than a speck of dust. This goes back to my favorite question. And the use of it is even less. When I did a feature back on the dark side, which was called Homework Sucks, there was a question which was, does my brand new phone weigh less than my phone when I've put my entire record collection into it?

And the answer is, yes, it is lighter when you buy it and it is heavier when you've put my entire record collection into it. And the answer is, yes, it is lighter when you buy it and it is heavier when you've put your entire record collection in there, but by such an imperceptible amount, you can't weigh it. It all goes down to equals MC squared, which will explain everything. And brings it back to Oppenheimer. Exactly. Nicely done.

Anyway, so there you go. Have we done Killian yet? We're about to do Killian Murphy, which is a very, very exciting thing. This is a really time-shifted program. That's right. How do you think the Killian Murphy interview is gonna a very, very exciting thing. This is a really time-shifted program. That's right. How do you think the Killian Murphy interview is going to go?

I think it's going to go really well. Do you think he's going to remember having interviewed us before? Because I think he is. Let's hear that in just a moment after this very promo heavy piece from Oppenheimer. What's the nature of the device they detonated? Data indicates it may have been a plutonium implosion device. Like the one you built at Los Alamos. A secret laboratory.

In the middle of nowhere. Keep everyone there until it's done. Why? If we don't let scientists bring their families, we'll never get the best. Build my town. Why would I leave my family? I told you you could bring your family. I'm not a soldier, Abbie. A soldier? He's a general. I told you you could bring your family. I'm not a soldier, Abbie. A soldier?

He's a general. I've got all the soldier I need. Well, can I tell them? As much as you like, so you feel my boot on your balls. You know I see. I see. I see. And you know I explosive.

You can't tell us what you're doing. If you're ready to go, Kylian, we're ready to go at this end. Let's do it. Okay. I know how much you love these interviews. So that's... So that's...

I like talking to you guys. Do you remember the last time you gave me the Spanish Inquisition? I do. Okay, I know how much you love these. I like talking to you guys. Do you remember the last time you gave me the Spanish Inquisition? I do. I do because we were trying to find out whether you were in... The next Batman. The next Batman. And you said...

I can't say anything. I can't say anything. And Simon said, are you in the Batman? You said, I can't say anything. I can't say anything. And he asked you a third time and you said, look, I've signed a piece of paper. Which means you're in it. Oh, did I? Wow. What a pro.

It was genius. Yes. It was honestly, it was like Frost Nixon all over again. So does it feel strange to be still talking about Oppenheimer? I mean, I know we're in award season and everything, and this is the way it works, but is it odd to still be promoting it after this time? No, there's a lot to talk about in that movie, so I don't mind that. And it's lovely that people are talking about it in such flattering terms,

and it's really nice, because we were on strike for so long. It's nice to be able to go out and talk about it freely now, particularly after it connected so in such a huge way with audiences in a far greater way than any of us had anticipated. So no, it's really nice. Because the strike actually began on the red carpet premiere of Oppenheimer at Leicester Square, because the cast were there up until five o'clock, and then the strike began, and that was the beginning of it. Everybody had to leave after that. That's right, yeah. We walked off.

Yeah. Okay, so now you're liberated. We can talk about it. Was there any stage in the filming process where you get a kind of a suspicion? I mean, obviously it's a Christian film, so it's going to be great, and the cast is extraordinary, and the story is amazing. Was there any stage in the filming process where you get a kind of a suspicion? I mean, obviously it's a Chris Nolan film, so it's going to be great. And the cast is extraordinary and the story is amazing. Do you get any sense of how great it's going to be at any stage? Oh gosh, no. I think that would be the kiss of death if you ever had thoughts like that making a film. I know from having worked with Chris for 20 years now and being fortunate to work

closely with him that he's a very, very special filmmaker. But this was a very unique project for him. And, you know, we knew it was a tough subject matter and it was an awful lot of story to wrangle into a three hour movie. And it was a huge undertaking, kind of, herculean, really, in terms of the actual production and trying to shoot it in 57 days, and the size of the cast, and the sort of themes that we were addressing. So I knew it was a huge, huge challenge for all of us.

But no one ever anticipated this, that it would connect the way, I mean, on paper, a three hour orated movie about a physicist doesn't have a blockbuster written all over it. But somehow it proved that formula wrong. Although you have said that it was one of the best screenplays you have ever read. So clearly when you got the pages, you knew it was special at that point.

Oh yeah, I mean, I really, really did. But I felt that way about a lot of Chris's scripts. And I remember feeling that way about Inception, like it was so unique and unlike anything I'd read. But this was sort of a next level for him. I guess, like I said, in terms of what he was, the story he was trying to tell, but also how laser-like it was in the way he wrote it. Also, I'd never read a script written in the first person. That was my first experience of reading that. So it's very unique, you know. So for example, let's say I walked into the room and I spot straws, you know. I'd never experienced that.

So I knew that it would be this subjective piece of storytelling and I knew that that put an awful lot of responsibility on my shoulders, which was wonderfully terrifying or terrifyingly wonderful. That sense of the weight being on your shoulders, actually, I mean, more accurately on your face, because one of the things that Nolan does is use his IMAX for facial close-ups,

which is not what people traditionally think of IMAX as. I don't think I've ever seen an actor's face so explored like a landscape as in Oppenheimer. What was it like the first time you saw that on the big screen? Because it's the biggest and the most intimate you will ever see an actor's face. Chris and his DP, Hoit van Hoiterman,

who are close collaborators as well, and they made a decision to use the IMAX for those intimate scenes, for those close-up scenes. Chris has always believed that you can use large-former cameras like that, but they were again pushing it a bit further on this picture. I suppose for actors, again, you try not to think about the format too much. I've worked with all-size cameras, little GoPro's and huge IMAX cameras, and you begin to just adapt to it.

The thing about the IMAX is that it makes this terrific noise. It's like it's like an aggressive fridge, like like like worrying and at you. So you have to kind of get over that. But I was I've been a bit of a veteran because he used that on several of the other movies, so I'm kind of used to that. And again, it's more about the presentation than it is in the shooting. Do you know what I mean?

You don't think about it until you see it, really. I mean, in the back of your mind, you are thinking, if this is watched in an IMAX theater, it will be shown on an 80-foot screen. So I don't have to do too much. That is in the back of your head. But I always knew that this was going to be a very interior performance. We knew that from the beginning.

It had to be a very quiet performance, because that was the sort of world that we were in. And this was a deeply intellectual genius of a man. So we were trying to show that those cogs turning, you know, that was really the ambition. OK, maybe you're hinting at this then, Kylian. Can I ask you about how you become Oppenheimer? Because if I'm right, he was a frail man.

He was a slight man. Can I ask you about the physicality of becoming Oppenheimer? Yes, he was very, very slim, almost kind of amitiated all his life, just kind of naturally like that. I mean, he didn't eat either, so that didn't help. I mean, he existed on cigarettes and martinis and occasionally an olive, I suppose, here

and there. But it was, that was the way he was. He was very frail physically, but this giant brain and this huge intellect. And many of his contemporaries and peers thought him the most brilliant of them all. So yeah, it was important to get that silhouette right at the beginning. And we did, it's just a case of conditioning.

You have to condition your body for different types of roles. I mean, for peaky blinders, I had to get a bit beefy and a bit hench, and for up and down memory, I had to get a bit beefy and a bit hench, you know, and for Up and I'm Where you have to kind of do the opposite. And it was important that silhouette was quite iconic, you know, with the hat and those highways to pleaded trousers and that sort of tailoring. And then it also changes the way you walk, it changes the way you carry yourself, and it changes you in relation to other people. So that was important.

That was one aspect of the prep for sure. It occurred to me actually when I was thinking about coming into the interview, Kilian, that you've been in an awful lot of the of the uh, television and seen it output that I've enjoyed the most. So I thought Quiet Place was a work of genius. Quiet Place 2 was absolutely fantastic. Piki Blinders was wonderful and then Oppenheimer so extraordinary. But the reason I just want to mention that is presumably your friendship with Emily Blunt was a big plus for Oppenheimer. And I think you've said, actually,

you said to her a couple of times, I couldn't have done that scene if it wasn't with you. Yeah, no, you're dead, right? Emily Blunt is one of my favorite people in the world, and also one of my favorite actors in the world. I don't think there's anything that Emily Blunt can't do as an actor. She's just, she's got the most astonishing range. And we've become fast friends after Quite Place 2. And I think, you know, Chris's, Chris's idea to cast us as husband and wife was not done casually.

I think because I think when you have a history with someone, I think the camera reads that. I think it does transfer. And then also you get that for free, but then you also get this level of trust. So that scene you're mentioning where we both had to kind of go to quite emotional places. Yeah, you need to do that with some of her ability and someone that you trust as much as I trust her. So yeah, I felt very lucky, always feel very lucky sharing this screen with Emily.

What do we see you in next, Killian? I have a film called Small Things Like These, which is opening the Berlin Film Festival on the 15th of February. Mark is is opening the Berlin Film Festival on the 15th of February. Mark is going to the Berlin Film Festival. We're going to be in Berlin. We can hang out, you know, like we do. Well, come to the opening night, Mark. See, that's a personal invitation. I literally just turn up, I go, no, Kili and Murphy invited me. I just think, don't be fine. See how that goes.

Thank you. Yeah, I'm very proud of it. So we're excited to premiere it there. All right, Kylian, we appreciate your time. Thank you so much for talking to us today. Nice to talk, lads. How fantastic to have Kylian on the show. Was that Kylian? I just listened to Geoffrey Wright.

No, no, no, that was definitely Kylian Murphy. Because as... He's great, isn't he? He's great. It was all so disrupted around the strike. And there was, we were gonna do like a barbenheimer show. We were, yes. But then the dates didn't match up,

so we didn't get our usual interview with Christopher Nolan. I was very upset about that, just because he's such an extraordinary, such fascinating person to talk to. And now we get to talk to Killian. He just doesn't do, I mean, he doesn't like interviews. He doesn't do very many interviews. He doesn't need to. He absolutely doesn't need to. But when he does, he's absolutely fascinating. If you

want to talk to him about his family or something, you are not going to get anywhere. No, but if you want to talk to him about his record collection, Yeah, record collection or what he does for a living, then you're going to be able to do that. Good for him. Why should anyone ask him any other stuff? And he and Oppenheimer are going to win the most of everything. Bafters, Oscars, do you think? Shall we do predictions?

Because everyone knows it's completely full-hardy to do this, but shall we do them? I think Killian Murphy is going to win Best Actor. I think Oppenheimer is going to win Best Film. I think Christopher Nolan is going to win Best Director. Cards on the table. You now need to go and put a spread bet on that. An accumulator. Not doing it.

And then you'll be able to afford... Because having a house. Even having lost my faith, I'm still not betting. Anyway, so thanks to Killian for coming on. We'll see how all the awards goes. But obviously it's awards, but we don't take them that seriously. No, but it's when we do. So what is new and out there? Our guile is the new film by Matthew Vaughan, who's producer, turn director,

who was both delighted and appalled me in the past. On the delighted side, a light stardust, I loved Kikass. On the appalled side, the stuff in Kingsman, which just, you know, it ended, it did the bum note in the first film, and then the second film just seemed to be, you thought that was bad. We can make it much worse. We can make it even worse.

We also have Matthew Vaughan to thank for inventing Guy Ritchie because he produced Lockstock. So this could go either- Who knows which way it's gonna be. Who knows? So this starts go either- Who knows which way it's gonna- Who knows? So this starts off in completely naff fashion. Henry Cavill is super spy Argyle, who's got a terrible suit and a terrible flat top

that even I felt embarrassed about his hair. I mean, it made vanilla-ices, hair choices look sensible. He's at a club, he meets a femme fatale, you know, incredibly glamorous, they dance, then they chase and then you know she goes off on a motorbike and he's on a car and the dialogue is terrible and the action is ludicrous and it's all rubbish. It's a book. Turns out it's being read to us by its author, Ellie Conway, played by Bryce Dallas Howard. Dallas House prices. I didn't know anything about this before.

So I did start watching the film thinking, this is Matthew Vaughan in terrible mode. But no, actually, it's somebody reading a piece of fiction. So deliberately terrible. She is shy and retiring in real life. She travels with her cat in a backpack. She stays out of relationships. She's on a train. A very, very handsome man comes up to him and says, oh, is this seat taken? She says, she stays out of relationships. She's on a train, a very, very handsome man comes up to her

and says, oh, is this seat taken? She says, she looks at him and she says, no, no, it is taken, it is taken because she doesn't need anything else in her life. Next thing, a long-haired waste roll played by Sam Rockwell sits in the chair, starts reading a book, it's her book, and he recognizes her from the picture on the cover, here's a clip. Hmm. That's cheeky. Oh, not what you expected a spy to look like, huh?

Well, yeah, in fairness, that is just about the only thing your books get wrong. A male model and a bespoke neuron jagger with a stupid haircut. Tends to stand out on a train, as opposed to everyone else in this car. Vam, you don't notice. Have I lost it? So what you don't see in the clip, you hear in the thing, is that when she's looking at him, suddenly she sees the face of Henry Cavill, who haunts her waking dreams. This is a character that she has made up, but appears to be talking to her. As for the Wastral, he turns out to be something else altogether, as does everyone else, including her. So this is written by Jason Fuchs, whose name is Jason Isaac Fuchs. Isn't that great? Can you spell his surname? F-U-C-H-S. Okay. No, no, you got it right. It's just, you know, it's clenk-y. Yeah, okay, fine, but I think I got it right. And who's clearly seen and enjoyed films like The Longkiss Goodbye, Longkiss Goodnight,

and Jason Bourne. And Matthew Bourne says that this is his owed to action thrillers of the 80s, like Die Hard and Lethal Weapon. It isn't, it's nothing like any of those films. But frankly, that's no bad thing. It's a film in which of an author, and again, this is interesting,

because this is straight after having just talked about American fiction, who writes about super spy mad worlds suddenly finds himself in a world in which reality is madder than fiction. Everything goes from bad to completely nuts and about 50 minutes in I realized that I was really enjoying myself. Supporting roles by the likes of Sam Jackson, Brian Cranston, Catherine Ahara, Julie, but Ariande de Beau's, John Cena, Uncle Tom Cobbley and all, but brilliantly what doesn't make an appearance is the leeriness of Matthew Vaughan's previous works. It's just it's almost like he grew up or he decided that that wasn't

going to work and none of that is there. And a lot of the reason, I think the difference in tone is down to Bryce Dallas Howard, who is absolutely terrific in the Central. She wouldn't be having anything to do with that. Was my feeling entirely. And it's not there. As for Matthew Vaughn, in the absence of all that stuff, all his pent-up energy goes into some genuinely funny

sequences, including a finale. It starts with the sounds of all that stuff, all his pent-up energy goes into some genuinely funny sequences, including a finale. It starts with the sounds of Barry White and there's a lot of it slipping into dance. And the finale, which is oil, ice skating, shooty, exploding, stuff everywhere, mad, musical, Fantasia violence. I thought it was really quite something. As I was going in to see the film, a fellow critic said to me, what do you make of the Taylor Swift thing?

And I said, pardon? He said, what do you make of the Taylor Swift thing? I said, I don't know anything about this film. Is Taylor Swift in this film? I said, no, but you know the thing about, there was all these rumors that Taylor Swift wrote the original book. I said, no, I don't know anything about this at all. So I Googled it and this is apparently so when it was said that they were doing this thing,

nobody could find it. They said, Ellie Conway, who's the author in the thing, was the author of the original book. Nobody could find out who Ellie Conway was. The Hollywood reporter was trying to find out the internet being what it was. Social media was trying to find out, the internet being what it was, social media was trying to identify the author and figured out that it was probably Taylor Swift. If in doubt. If in doubt, it's Taylor Swift. And incidentally, I love Taylor Swift now. We all love Taylor Swift. We are on record.

We are. We are Swifties. And if anyone tries to suggest that she's not, then we're probably going to take against them. Yeah. And anyone who is annoying the orange chimpanzee that much, good for her. Anyway, this is the most fun a Matthew Vaughan film has been for a very long time. Okay, good. And it's out of control and ill-disciplined,

but it's got some great sequences in it. I really like the central performances hats off to Bryce Dallas Howard, good use of pop music and demonstration that none of that awful horrible leariness was ever necessary. He never needed it. More of this please, Matthew. And that is the end of Take One. This has been a Sony Music Entertainment Production.

This week's team was Lily, Gully, Vicki, Zaki, Matty, Beth, E, Michael Lee, and Simon E. Mark, what is your film of the week? Well, it's definitely the zone of interest. Remember to follow us on Letterboxed at Kermit and Mayo. Not Mark Kermit, just Kermit and Mayo. Take Two has arrived at the same time. Loads of extra stuff, recommendations, bonus reviews.

Take Three on Wednesday. Thank you for listening. Beads of sweat trickle down your forehead. Thank you for listening. When you're in debt, everything looks different. Like the fear of bills you can't pay. At Farber Debt Solutions, we can help you see things the way you did before you were in debt. Farber Debt Solutions, licensed in Solvency Trustees. Get the truth about debt.