Kermode & Mayo’s Take - John Krasinski and Phoebe Waller-Bridge, Made in England, La Chimera & Kingdom of the Planet of the Apes

Episode Date: May 10, 2024

This week, Simon’s fave John Krasinski, along with Ms Fleabag herself, Phoebe Waller-Bridge, are on the show to discuss their new film ‘If’, which sees a 12-year-old girl who can see everyone��s imaginary friends, embark on a magical journey to reconnect the forgotten so-called IFs with the now-adult kids who dreamt them up. Mark will be reviewing the film next week. The good doctor Kermode gives his diagnosis on various new releases, including ‘Made in England’, a documentary in which legendary auteur Martin Scorsese reflects on the legacy and lasting influence of the equally legendary British filmmaking duo Michael Powell and Emeric Pressburger; and ‘La Chimera’, Alice Rohrwacher’s latest about a British archaeologist who becomes embroiled in an international network of stolen Etruscan artifacts in the 1980s – its star Josh O’Connor was on the show to talk about last week. If you haven’t already his chat with Simon is an absolute must-listen! The big review of the week is ‘Kingdom of the Planet of the Apes’, the fourth instalment of the ‘Planet of the Apes’ reboot franchise, which sees a young ape, many years after the reign of Caesar, embark on a journey that will lead him to question everything’s he’s been taught about the past and make choices that will define a future for apes and humans alike. Timecodes (relevant only for the Vanguard - who are also ad-free!): 06:34 – Made In England Review 11:47 – Box Office Top Ten 25:18 – John Krasinski and Phoebe Waller-Bridge Interview 41:23 – La Chimera Review 47:36 – Kingdom of the Planet of the Apes Review You can contact the show by emailing [e-mail] or you can find us on social media, @KermodeandMayo EXCLUSIVE NordVPN Deal ➼ https://nordvpn.com/take Try it risk-free now with a 30-day money-back guarantee! A Sony Music Entertainment production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts and follow us @sonypodcasts To advertise on this show contact: [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey Mark, you know I've been spending a lot more time in Denmark recently. Yep, the bakery date is in the calendar still. Well it being a Nordic country and everything, I found the perfect solution to streaming all those lovely films and TV shows that we review whilst I'm there. What on earth would that perfect solution be, Simon? Well NordVPN of course, you see it's Nord, Nordic. You don't know it yet. I get it, moving on.

With one click NordVPN can change my device's virtual location so I can access all the content I need when I'm abroad. I can now watch poor things whether in London or Paris. Why even wait until you're on holiday? You can do it right now and access content in over 61 different countries, unlocking all this content for less than a price

of a pano raisin a month. Pano raisin. To take our huge discount off your NordVPN plan, go to nordvpn.com slash take. Our link will also give you four extra months for free on the two-year plan. Now, back to the show. Alright, Mark. Alright, Son, how you going? You know drugs? Well, I've heard about them. I've read about them.

Yes. Why? I'm just wondering whether... Is there a reason? Well, I just wonder whether they... Yeah. Because when I came in today, I found on the floor Bombay mix, some scatterings of drugs. Yeah. wonder whether they... Yeah, because when I came in today, I found on the floor some scatterings of Bombay mix, because I had been having some Bombay mix a few days ago. And

I'm kind of thinking that the use of drugs is more widespread than we realize, and that they put something in snacks like that to make them addictive. And obviously caffeine, we know about that. We know about tobacco and all that kind of stuff. But I wonder if there's a secret drug in Bombay mix, which means that you're drawn back time and time again before your life falls apart. It's definitely true that there's nothing in Bombay mix in sort of the flavour or the experience of eating them that would explain why it is that they are so Moorish. So I think, yes, there is something in them. I suspect it's napalm or asbestos. You think? Maybe there must be a food chemist who's a Van Gogh Easter and a key part of the church. So, if someone

can explain the addictive qualities of Bombay mix and similarly adjacent snacks, then this would be a very, very good thing. What's that stuff that they put in? What's it called? That they put in Chinese food, the flavor enhancer thing. There's mentic, monosodium glutamate. Maybe they're absolutely rich in monosodium glutamate. And then there's this story. Yeah, I looked at the label and it didn't have it. No, it just said Bombay mix, right? But there's this story that monosodium glutamate can give you a headache, like can give you like a, you know, kind of a headache. But apparently

that's not true. Apparently it's just a myth. It definitely makes you want to eat more of it. So maybe they just sprinkle monosodium glutamate all over, all over the Bombay. And I also, I don't know what Bombay mix is. It's like, it's, it's, it's hamster cage stuff, isn't it? It's just like bits of stuff. Mason- It is. Absolutely. It's that. But it's, it's unbelievably, and even just talking about it, I feel my addiction returning. In the gap between take one and take two, I'm going to have to pop down to the small shop on the corner that does a very large bag for a pound. Is this because you're still on steroids?

No, I'm off all the drugs. I'm off all those drugs, but I'm on to Sirius Bombay mix hardcore stuff, which is good. Anyway, so my voice is like 95%. So there's a hint of gravel, but that's all. So in the words of that famous pop song, did you find that the drugs don't work? Jason- No, the drugs did work, and that's why I took them. But I'm not sure they were the drugs that were being referred to in that aforementioned song. Later on the show, we are going to be reviewing some very entertaining films. Well, they might, I've got no idea. Mark will tell you whether they are, but what are they? Mason- Yeah, Made in England, which is

documentary about the films of Powell and Pressburger, Kingdom of the Planet of the Apes, which is, as the title suggests, the new Planet of the Apes movie. And La Chimera, for which we had Josh O'Connor on the show last week. And if you haven't heard that interview, it was brilliant to go back and listen to that before the review, I would suggest. If you haven't listened to that, pause this show now. La Chim the other one. Jason Vale-Solomonski La Chimera, I believe. Jason Vale-Solomonski La Chimera. Jason Vale-Solomonski La Chimera. Jason Vale-Solomonski La Chimera.

Jason Vale-Solomonski Also special guests on the show, John Krasinski and Phoebe Waller-Bridge talking about If, which is their new movie, a very entertaining conversation with John and Phoebe on the way. Also, Pour les Avant Gardistes, our recommendation feature the TV movie of the week. Two bonus reviews. What's our bonus review thing? Alistair Duggan-Shallowgrave, which is back in cinemas for its anniversary reissue, which is making me feel so old. And The Regime, which is the teliseries starring Kate Winslet,

which I've now done in its entirety. Questions, Shmessions is neatly tucked into Take Two, so you don't have to wait too long to get to that. You can access all this joy via Apple Podcasts or head to extra takes.com if you have a non-fruit related device. If you're already a Vanguardista, as ever, out of sync, we salute you. We salute you. There you go. How out of sync is it possible to be? Joel says, a fan of both iterations of your podcast for about 10 years, anyway,

I thought I'd contribute to the discussion about specific audiences finding unexpected comedy in certain movies. In this case, it comes from a song, He's So Fine by the Chiffons, famous song of course, which begins with a nonsense phrase that sounds like, do-lang, do-lang, do-lang, which is what the backing chorus is doing. Many years ago, I was in my home country, the Philippines, watching a film when the song came on. I think the film was Catch Me If You Can, but given the song's popularity, it could have been in any number of movies. As soon as the Duleng, Duleng started, the entire audience burst out laughing because phonetically, Duleng

is my native tongue. In my native tongue means cross-eyed, which is not really what the chiffons originally suggested. Similarly, the name of the day, Mark, is definitely Awoud Dronkert from Utrecht in the Netherlands. Awoud Dronkert says, my last name is funny to Dutch and English speakers alike because it means drunkard. So he's an avowed drunkard, that's his name. On the subject of unintentionally funny movie moments, perhaps across language barriers, this stands out in my memory. 1996, when to see The English Patient in the cinema in the Netherlands. Films are always shown with subtitles here, never dubbed unless for children. Remember when the Sikh army engineer builds a hoist and pulley system for Hannah

to review the artworks in the church. This is an English patient. It's a big scene. It is so romantic. She's overwhelmed while swaying back and forth and says, Kip, Kip, oh Kip. Unfortunately, the effect in our cinema was quite different. Full of Dutch people who are on the whole not used to Indian names. All we heard was chicken, oh chicken, chicken, oh chicken, because Kip is Dutch for chicken. Cluckety cluck old fruits and down with battery cages. Thank you, oh wow, Drunkard, which is a very good name. We appreciate that. Correspondence at covidomeo.com. We have some fine reviews brought to you by the finest reviewer in the world. In the words of Groucho Marx, who just walked in?

So, what's out? What can we go and see? Okay, Made in England, the films of Powell and Pressburger, which is a documentary directed by David Hinton, presented by Martin Scorsese about the films of Powell and Pressburger, aka The Archers. You'll remember, Thelma Schoonmaker came on the show and she was just brilliant. It was like having a visit from the Queen because she was discussing the Powell and Press burger season. She had long been Scorsese's editor and through him she met and married Michael Powell. And Scorsese had long

been a champion of Powell. He pretty much rescued him from virtual obscurity in the UK, took him to Hollywood. He was the key player in the rediscovery of Peeping Tom, which we've talked about before, which had become a forbidden film, a lost film, because it was kicked around town by critics. I think you could argue that Scorsese has done more to champion Powell in particular, and Powell and Pressburger than almost anyone else. This documentary revisits and celebrates their films. You know I'm a fan of theirs. I know where I'm going. Colonel Blimp, Tales of Hoffman, Black Narcissus, Matter of Life and Death, and of course Red Shoes. Here is a clip of Martin Scorsese enjoying

Red Shoes. The nicest theatres then were spectacles in themselves, great movie palaces, and the screens were huge and they filled you with hope and expectation of wonder. And one film that fulfilled all those expectations was The Red Shoes. It was the first time I saw the Arches logo in color. And of course I particularly remember the ballet sequence. Wanting to know how they made the dancer turn into a scrap of newspaper. These days I'm told that Powell Presburger represents something called English Romanticism, but I don't really know what that is. To me,

the overwhelming impression of their films has always been to do with colour, light, movement and a sense of music. And it's really funny because he talks about the fact that when he was a kid, he had asthma and therefore he couldn't go out and play with other kids. So he watched a bunch of stuff on television and he watched a bunch of Powell and Press, but he saw them in black and white. And so he finally goes to the cinema and sees them in colour, which is how we think, particularly of Red Shoes. It's such a big thing. So he uses clips from their films. He also uses clips from his own films. So Mean Streets, Raging Bull, Age of Innocence to show what he took from the arts. He describes how, for example, the separated love affair of Colonel

Blimp is the key to Age of Innocence. He talks about Jake LaMotta's long walk to the boxing ring and then cutting away from the matches being influenced by Powell and Pressburger. There's some lovely archive with Powell and Pressburger and a very thorough account of the ups and downs of their career, falling in and out of love with rank, going to America, returning to England. The thing that it reminded me of most was this idea that Made in England, of course, comes from their own credit for their own movie. It reminds me that the title of Ken Russell's autobiography was A British Picture because his mother, I said this before, his mother used to say, is it a British picture?

When she said that, what she meant was, is it in black and white boring? Does it feature a bunch of people sitting around a sink having a conversation? And of course, for Russell, he was hugely influenced by Powell and Pressburger by that kind of magical realism of what they were doing. The fact that they were doing composed films, films that were music and image together and just absolutely extraordinary visionary work that was so out of kilter, out of sync with what you think of as a particular British tradition. I mean, Palin Presburger are the things that then give you Ken Russell and Nick Rogue and I suppose later on, well, even Ben Wheatley, I think.

Anyway, the documentary is great, partly because if you go and see it on a big screen, because it's lovely to see those clips on a big screen. There's a weird thing about Scorsese, Scorsese, pardon me, looking slightly off camera. It's with him, he's not quite looking at you. He's looking slightly to the side, which is just to kind of, I mean, it's a bit, yeah, we take it on him. It's not a problem because he loves the film so much and he's Mark Scorsese. He can look wherever he wants, but there was a weird kind of eye line thing going on with that. But I just sat there, it's two and a quarter hours long, and I just sat there thinking,

I love these films. I mean, you know, Matter of Life and Death is a good lady. Professor Herringdorff's his favourite film of Evs. And Scorsese loves them and talks about them so passionately. And it's just great to see them being reclaimed. And of course, you know, again, a great argument for Peeping Tom, which was the film that was savaged by the critics when it came out. And then it could now recognized as a masterpiece anyway, made it in the films Powell and Pressburger. If you get a chart,

you want to hear Martin Scorsese rapsodizing about why Powell and Pressburger are so important. Go see this because it's very, very fine. In a moment, you'll get the box office top 10 plus our special guests, John Krasinski and Phoebe Waller-Bridge after this. Well hello there, Simon and Mark here to tell you about Indeed. Yes, Indeed is driven by the search for better, but when it comes to hiring, the best way to search for a candidate isn't to search at all. Don't search, Match with Indeed. If you need to hire, then you need Indeed.

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You need Indeed. Indeed. This episode is brought to you by the curated streaming service Mubi. Mark for our wonderful listeners who already have a Mubi account and for those who might be thinking about getting one, could you please tell us what films they can enjoy this May? Certainly Simon. This month Mubi are launching their Cannes Takeover. You know how much I love Can. And in honor of the Can Film Festival, which kicks off this month, here is a selection of what they

have available to stream in the UK. They have Annette, which is the Leos Carracks musical with music by Sparks, which is absolutely wonderful. And Tokyo Guard, which is the film by German director Wim Wenders, who travels to Tokyo to explore the world of one of his cinematic heroes Yesujira Ozu. That's Mubi's can takeover series. What else? Well, there's also Voilá Varda, which is a look back on some of the best of the famous French director There's Cleo from 5 to 7, Le Bonheur, Vagabond, The Gleaners and I and The Beaches of Agnes You can try Mubi free for 30 days at MUBI.com slash Kerma de Mayo. That's M-U-B-I dot com slash Kerma de Mayo for a whole month of great cinema for free. Okay, it's time for our box office top 10, brought to you in association with all our

friends at Comscore movies. Whenever we need a top 10, we turn to our friends there at Comscore, Mr and Mrs Comscore, and they go, here's a top 10, and we say thank you very much indeed. At number 22, the idea of you. Worth pointing out that it's down there because obviously it was essentially a download streaming release, so it did have some theatricals. I actually quite enjoyed it. I thought it was much better than I expected it to be. I do like Anne Hathaway and I think the central idea of a film which says why is there a problem with somebody, you know, an older woman going out with a younger man when we're all completely fine with it the other way around.

On that subject, Lucy in London. I enjoyed listening to two men discussing the idea of you. Yours sounded like a decent take on the film, Simon's heckle of annoying, notwithstanding. I assumed therefore that it would be a predictable schmaltzy yet inoffensive time pass, and then I watched it. For sure the set up is clunky and there are enough rom-com cliches in the first half to make you wonder why the two leads signed up. What I hadn't expected was how seen this film made me feel and how much it would move me. I too am a woman in midlife. I ended my marriage two years ago after some nonsense came to light and I am currently having a beautiful time with a man 12 years younger than me. Despite, although I would say because of the age gap, my friend

has opened up my world. They even introduced me to your podcast and he has helped me take the risk to be vulnerable and love again. Yes, the film can be trite. Yes, the ending is basically pretty woman for the Gen Z folk. And yes, the good people of Scarborough might want to have a word with the script writer. And it's a shame that in 2024, we must regard a film as brave just because it depicts an older woman and a younger man relationship. But I love that the film shows older women as successful yet goofy, and scared to love again yet passionate and desirable. Although I guess it helps if you look like Anne Hathaway, which just to be clear, I don't. But even I am having fun. It seems to me that the sign of a good film is that it creates the space for you to find something of yourself there. So thank you for reviewing a romcom

that finally midlife women can relate to. Lucy in London. Okay Lucy, thank you very much. Mason a pretty woman end was completely redone in order to give it a happy ending. I actually think that the end of The Idea Review is a much cleverer take on that and I think it works much better. Mason- Ghostbusters Frozen Empire is at number 10 here and in America we don't need to talk about that. Number nine, Godzilla Kong The New Empire. Mason- I mean, it's big crashy smashy monsters hitting things, but so much more was needed to make this into an interesting film.

It is just a spectacle. That is all it is. Number eight is Love Lies Bleeding. Now just before I read out, they've got an email from Peter in Brussels, which I'll get to in just a moment. Last week when you were talking about Love Lies Bleeding, we were also talking about Baby Reindeer, yes? Yeah. Yeah. when you were talking about Love Lies Bleeding, and we were also talking about Baby Reindeer, yes?

Yeah. Okay. So I noticed that on one particular type of social media, I had just been followed by Veronica Tafilska. And I thought, oh, okay, that's interesting. I wonder who she is. And then I looked her up and she is the co-writer of Love Lies Bleeding, and she's the director of Baby Reindeer. So if ever there was a woman whose time was now, it's her. That's incredible. So Baby Reindeer, that's her.

Love Lies Bleeding, that's her as well. That's amazing, isn't it? Yeah. That's called being of the moment, isn't it? I love Love Lies Bleeding. I think it's just, I mean, I'm a huge fan of Rose Glass and I really, you know, I love Saint Maud. But in the case of this, I just thought it was, you know, it was muscular and it was passionate and it was, it was kind of had a sense of its own outrageousness.

It was bold. And I mean, it's so great to see a filmmaker on their second feature have this much confidence. The confidence to do, you know, attack of the 50 foot woman jokes, to make a film which is so fleshy and so kind of Cronenbergian. And you know, it really is one of those things that kind of reaches off the screen and grabs at your innards. I thought it was just fantastic. A couple of notes on that. Peter in Brussels at a recent BIF, which is the Brussels International Fantastic Film Festival, where Rose Glass's Love Lies Bleeding was shown to an audience that jumped on the occasion

to see it, since it apparently won't be distributed by A24 in my country. Many queer, predominantly lesbian people attended the event together in the hope that it would be a celebration of queerness and an occasion for them to rejoice and celebrate the kind of representation they crave for. Everything turned sour as soon as the projection began, when a sizable group of people, predominantly male and middle-aged, started purposefully shouting rude, sexist and homophobic abuse and jokes at the people asking them to stop. Some fistfights occurred and the projection was cut short when about 80 lesbian women decided to collectively leave, most of them scared and in tears. The organizers did try to intervene by calling the police

on these women when they refused to stop complaining about what had just happened. As a queer man myself, I always saw the cinema as a refuge from the outside world, a place where I could watch others express my emotions better than I possibly could. I don't want to be scared to go to the movies. I don't want to have to ask people to stop being disrespectful. I don't want my rare hours of leisure to become the equivalent of a Twitter feed full of homophobic slurs passing off as jokes. I don't want people to start a fisticuffs tournament midway through a work of art. I'm not even sure I'd feel safe enough to go and watch that film in the cinema if it was shown in Belgium." I think

that's a one-off. I haven't read any other stories of the film causing that kind of objectionable behaviour, but Peter, appreciate it. Mason- Yeah, no, that's horrifying. What an absolutely horrible thing. I think in general, people misbehaving in cinemas is terrible, but that sounds like a really, really horrible. The only thing I would say is don't be put off. I haven't heard other stories like that. And you know, so let's hope that is a fairly isolated instance. I want everybody to go and see Love Lies Bleeding and to enjoy it in a cinema, which is really,

I mean, it is such a cinematic film. Like we were talking about Palin Bresberger. It is such a cinematic film. It needs to be seen on a big screen. Mason- Also on that subject, Caroline says, I took myself to my old stomping ground of Warwick Arts Centre this afternoon to see Love Lies Bleeding. I was expecting a lot of glistening muscles and a thriller, but blimey Charlie, the violence was a bit stronger than anticipated. I came out needing a stiff drink, but I'm not drinking at the moment.

So instead I just wandered around my old campus looking a bit stunned. I mean, looking at Tossall flats is enough to make you want to have a drink anyway, but still. Hours have passed since then and I still couldn't tell you whether I enjoyed the film or not. Fantastic performances certainly, and really good to see a lesbian romance not shot for men, but I think I might be just a tad too soft for this one. Caroline, thank you very much. It's definitely kind of muscular and aggressive, but I'd like to say that I do think that thing about not knowing whether you like to film or not actually is one of the most brilliant responses. As I believe I once said in a book that I wrote, you can probably buy in a bookshop, there are films that you can love and films that you can hate, but the best films are

the films that you can love and hate at the same time. So let's race through these up to number one. Civil War is at number seven. Jason- Well, I think you and I are both in agreement that it is definitely very, very powerful for whatever shortcomings it may have. It's a powerful cinema experience. Mason- Tarot is at number six. Jason- Wasn't press screened. Supernatural horror film. The only review I've seen is from the Grarney ad, which said, flashes of competence are not enough to distract from a sense of crushing pointlessness. So maybe that's why they didn't show it to us.

Okay, that's very good. Kung Fu Panda is at number five. And then now we're going to get Kung Fu Panda four at five and soon we're going to have Kung Fu Panda five at four. It's just unstoppable. Back to black is at number four. Which has done pretty decently considering the amount of negative press it faced. I think it is a three out of five pot biopic and I think it's a three out of five pop biopic and I think it has a very strong central performance. I know it's a fairy tale, but no one doing pop biopics is asking for documentary realism.

Josh O'Connor, our star in just a moment, is one of the stars of Challenges, which is at number three. If you thought tennis was not sexy, see Challenges. Honestly, I was just talking to one of my children yesterday, he went to see it and I said, overcooked. They went, yeah. But honestly, that final tennis showdown is like overcooked, but wow. And it's like, yeah, it is kind of breathless. And it's my favourite Luca Guadagnino film. UK number two, and it's the same in the States. Star Wars Episode One, The Phantom Menace.

Mason- That's not any better. Mason- It's doing okay. So the UK top three and the US top three is the same because the number one movie is The Fall Guy. Let me give you a couple of emails, Mark, and then you can... I can't remember another example of on the one hand and on the other. First of all, Feiknan says, the fall guy is so bad I wanted to leave after 20 minutes. Something I haven't done since Highlander 3, the final dimension in the 1990s. I've seen some terrible dreck in the intervening 30 or so years. I cannot begin to understand how a film so lacking in every department has escaped into the wild. The dialogue is utterly facile and witless, and yet this banter drones on interminably,

in almost every scene that requires people to talk to each other. The stunts are utterly uninspired, worse still they are photographed with not a single iota of visual flourish. The chemistry between gosling and blunt is nonexistent, that the best scene between them is when they're on mobile phones makes it feel like they were so repulsed by each other they couldn't bear each other's company any longer, and so on. Then on the other hand, Michael. I've just returned from my local world of Sydney, wanted to share my thoughts on The Fall Guy.

Going in, I knew very little beyond what the trailer seemed to suggest was a bit of knockabout fun with some famous faces. What I got was so much more and perhaps the most fun I've had in a cinema for a long, long time. This is a film that feels simultaneously new, fresh and distinctive, but also delightfully retro in its embrace of physical stunts, handsome leads and lots of explosions. The fizzing pace is unrelenting, the jokes are genuinely funny and sprinkled liberally and the use of music is excellent. I'm thoroughly enjoying Ryan Gosling's reinvention as a genuinely excellent comedy actor and his chemistry with Emily Blunt is the beating heart of this film. I also can't help but feel this is a rare example of everyone involved having a great

time, which then does translate to the audience. To finish, I think the film's greatest achievement is how it manages to be several different films at once. Equal parts comedy, romance and action without any one part neglected or overindulged. So you're either with Feuchlin or you're with Michael. Well, I think of those two emails pretty much somewhat my experience of seeing the film. I saw it and I thought it was a really entertaining popcorn movie and I loved the chemistry between the two leads. As I walked out, I met a critic who said to me, wasn't that awful? And I said, no, I didn't think so. And they were very surprised. Now, the interesting thing is that although this is number one, apparently it is a soft

number one. The Variety article after the opening weekend says, a Fall Guy kicked off the summer movie season without much sizzle. What they think is that it's underperformed and one of the reasons people are saying is maybe because they thought that Fall Guy was a familiar IP and perhaps it isn't. I really enjoyed it. I think it is a really good popcorn movie. I don't think it's anything more than that. I don't think it has any depth, but I definitely enjoyed watching it. I saw it on an iMac screen in which the stunts looked pretty damn good to me. But another critic, over whom I'm a great fan, really didn't like it. So it is proving divisive. I'm kind of confused because I just thought it was a bucket

of popcorn. That's what it is. I love the fact that you can be number one. Hey, we're number one. Yeah, but it's a soft number one. I know. I know. But you understand how the pop charts work. A soft number two is something else. Yeah. I haven't said it. And there we are. So this early in the show, we're into trying hard. Regular listeners will be pleased.

I know. It's the perfect place, in fact, to introduce our laughter lift. Here we go. It is. Hey, Mark. Hey, Simon. Very annoying last week after we'd finished recording, there was a knock on the door. It was a door-to-door salesman trying to sell me a coffin. I told him to get lost, that's the last thing I need. I bought the Good Lady's ceramicisterium doors a new pet this week, an old English sheepdog.

Despite the frequent shedding, the need for constant grooming, the wet nose and the incessant panting, the dog seems to like her. the incessant panting, the dog seems to like her. By the way, Mark, did you hear that Elton John's finally hung up his platforms and spectacles and given up touring so he can fully embrace the next chapter of his life? He's going to be spending more time with David and his two sons and of course, their rabbit, for whom he's just bought a very fancy treadmill. It's a little fit bunny. for whom he's just bought a very fancy treadmill. It's a little fit bunny. It's fit. Oh, I see. It's a little fit. Very good. It's a little fit. It's a little fit. Correct. You should have done it like that. So it was still to come. Mark, what are you doing? Reviews of King of the Planet, the Apes and we say Kimera, Kimera. Kimera. Yes.

And our special guests, John Krasinski and Phoebe Willow-Bridge after this. Hey, it's Ben Bailey-Smith here, Substitute Taker, and this episode is brought to you by Better Help. Now, a lot of us spend our lives wishing we had more time. If I had an extra hour slotted into my day, I'd actually get through a question, shmessions, you know, it's I can never quite fit the extra shows in. We all live busy lives these days and everything seems to move at a hundred miles an hour. So how do we know what to make room for? Like how do we know what's really important when our lives are happening so quickly? Therapy can help you find what matters to you. And if you know what matters to you, you can do

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So if you want an evening full of laughs and outrageous problems and dilemmas, then come along and join us on the big screen. Okay, so it's guest time and this week we're going to be speaking to John Krasinski and Phoebe Waller-Bridge. Their new movie is called If and you'll hear from John and Phoebe after this clip. Well, he's about eight or nine, so I think he's prioritized by hobby. See if anybody has any experience in magic or fantasy. Fantasy is a bit of a Pandora's box. Maybe they're person like superheroes.

Yeah, he does. Or art. Yeah, of art. Or TV. I'm not going to ask you again. Put some pants on. You're person like superheroes. Yeah, he does. Or art. Or TV. I'm not gonna ask he again. Put some pants on. You're freaking everyone out. How we feeling? I feel good. You feel good? Yeah, as good as expected. It's your show. Here we go. And that is a clip from, if I'm delighted to say, being joined by its writer, director and star, John Krasinski. Also another staff than film Phoebe Waller-Bridge, who plays Blossom. Hello, Phoebe. Hello.

And hello, John. Hello. Thanks for having us. Well, thank you very much for coming in. When I saw that we were going to do a conversation about IF, I thought, this is before I knew anything about what the movie was about. John Krasinski has remade the Lindsay Anderson 1968 vicious satire about British public school life, which is an ex-certificate and all that. I thought, wow, he's really... And he's marketing it for kids. Yeah, exactly. That would be genius. That would be, because that was the only other film I've seen called If before.

That's right. But it's not that one. So what is this one? Tell us, just introduce us to, if it's not that IF, it's this IF. This IF stands for Imaginary Friends, and I wrote a movie for my kids. I've always wanted to write a movie for my kids, but I wasn't quite sure which way to go. And I found myself standing in the thresholds of doorways watching my two daughters disappear into a magical world that Emily and I weren't invited into. And I thought that it wasn't just the joy on their face,

it was the authenticity of who they were when they were in there. They were just fearless and amazing. And then the pandemic hit and I saw their imagination, they were dwindling. The light that was in their eyes started to dwindle and they were doing fewer and fewer imaginary games. And they were asking questions and I could see fear setting in, eyes started to dwindle and they were doing fewer and fewer imaginary games. And they were asking questions

and I could see fear setting in, which happens to all of us, but they were asking big questions like, are we gonna be okay? And I thought, I have to write a movie about this. This is what it is, which is you have to write a movie to show your daughters that that magical place that they go to never goes away and you can always go back. Can you though?

Yes, you can. Is that right? And also it's something that they're- That's guaranteed that right? And also, it's something that... That's guaranteed by the way. If you see the movie. Yes, absolutely. It's something that their dad has made where he doesn't get tortured, where he doesn't get killed by an alien.

Sorry, spoiler for the first quiet place. You know, this is, I suppose, I mean, you're not a raunchy actor, are you? But I suppose you're not a... You never know. You're not a U-certificate actor. No, I'm not. I think they thought I was an accountant up until now, and that Emily was very charitable to marry an accountant

as Mary Poppins, because they had seen Mary Poppins in Jungle Cruise. And they had weirdly heard the word office, but I think they only thought as a workplace. So they thought he must go to an office and do something that's not very fun. So at what stage do you get on board with this, Phoebe? Very early, yeah.

Yeah. John called me to have a dinner with him and Emily and went to have dinner. And I'd actually forgotten this until you said it earlier, but John told me the idea for the movie then. She was one of the first people I ever, other than Emily, I think you were the first person to hear the idea. And I just, I lost my mind for it. I thought it was so beautiful, so pure, but also like an idea

that just gives and gives and gives. And with this imagination, with John's imagination, I just, I could see how magical it was gonna be. And then I got a call from him a couple of weeks later. Yeah. I think I was starting to write and I went, oops, you're in the movie now. Yeah.

Because you were so nice. And is that, okay, so that's, so you didn't arrange the dinner because you wanted to have. No, not at all. For the first time in my career, truly, I reached out to my agent and I said, can you get me any information that I can contact Phoebe? I mean, head over heels, just so enamored by,

not only the product that she was making, this unbelievable show and all the other things that she was doing, but it was this imagination. Honestly, I couldn't believe that someone was able to do hairpin turns through drama and comedy that well. And I just said, I couldn't believe that someone was able to do hairpin turns through drama and comedy that well. And I just said, I just want to sit and sort of be near the warm globe, whatever fire that is. It's true. It's totally true. And then we went, I will say we went to dinner, do you remember this? And there was like a 30

second pause where we are all just like, hi, hello. And we were super awkward with each other. I loved it. It was such a great night. It was great. But hearing the idea and then reading the script afterwards, it just completely took my breath away. The idea, it's an ingenious idea, but it's also so beautifully executed. It feels like it's equally for adults as it is for kids.

And it can move, well, it moved me to tears reading the script. And then every time I'd go in to record some of Blossom's lines, John would be like, just watch this three-minute other scene, and then I'd be in pieces again. Yeah. So I love being a part of it, and it's the first time I've been able to play an animated character. And Blossom's really something special.

In what way? She's like, the thing that I love about her the most is that, well, she's a butterfly. Never thought I'd get to play that. And she's a ballerina butterfly. And she's very together. She looks very sweet. And she's got this incredibly sort of like delicate exterior. And she has huge amount of sass. And she's very industri industrious and she's really trying to hold these people together, these ifs together. And the first few lines just stole my heart as well. She just says, oh my God, oh my God, oh my God. The first few lines that you see her. And then there's a beautiful little twist to her at the end. Every single character has an extra depth that sneaks up on you. And she really did

and she stole my heart. So the story that we follow, John, just explain who it is that we're following through this story. We're following a girl named Bea, who's 12 years old, who's at the doorstep of being an adult. She's deciding, she thinks that she's grown up and she's no longer a kid, so she doesn't need to deal with any kid-like things in her life. And she's going through a bit of a moment in her life

that's stressful. And in that one moment, we sort of find her in the last chance for her to be a kid. And in that moment, she's revisited by all these imaginary friends. And you find out that she had this superpower when she was a kid and now still has the superpower of being able to see everyone

in the world's imaginary friends and the movie's about what does she do with that super power? And the fact that she's 12 seems to be enormously significant because she's not a kid and she very much is a kid. Well, it's funny, thank you for pointing that out. So when I sat down to write the script, I actually thought the first thing I should do

is do a lot of research on what is an imaginary friend through the lens of child psychology. And what I found out was 11, 12 is that magic number where kids are usually losing their imagination or I should say putting it away and being asked to be adults or being asked to be socially accepted by their friends and things like that. So they lose their silliness, they lose their fearlessness and all that. And then the other thing that was great was to find out that most kids, imaginary friends, are projections of what they need.

So for instance, if you're being bullied at school, you invent a huge if that either will protect you or give you a hug. Or if your parents are going through a divorce, I read this beautiful story about how one of the imaginary friends had her dad's tie on because she was just remembering, they're basically an amalgam of the things that you're experiencing, which was really, really fun. And so that's what I put into all these imaginary friends. I love that Phoebe says you can sort of guess or you want to guess who the kids are by seeing

their imaginary friends because they are amalgams of what these kids' hopes, dreams, needs are. So is there a connection between the personality of the child and the person that they've ended up with as an imaginary friend? I was thinking of the Philip Pullman books, His Dark Materials, where all the characters have a demon and the demon is like a representation of their character. So if you have a robot as your imaginary friend, voiced by John Stewart, very funny, does that signify something about the kind of kid they were? Yeah, in my world, yes. When I was creating them, it's exactly that.

So that it would be sort of an amalgam of your hobbies, but also why do you need a friend? You need a friend who believes that you can do these things. Maybe your other friends weren't into robotics or whatever. So you invent a robot who would be into robotics with you. And so it's that kind of thing that would be why I was writing all these different friends. Phoebe, can I, am I allowed to ask you whose imaginary friend you are? Because all of these, John's shaking his head.

You absolutely are. Absolutely not. Okay. So based on the character, based on the imaginary friend you've just told us about that you are, what would we construe from that, from the character that you are, about the kind of child who might have you as an imaginary friend? I think the wonderful thing about an if is that you cannot begin to predict, unless you're really, really taking each one apart, there's a brilliant,

for example, there's an if, can I say about the ice? There's a cube of ice in a glass and that is an if. And can I also say that we don't meet the kid that that and that this one really captured my imagination because I was like, this kid is either incredibly hot a lot of the time, that needs this, or might be very cold a lot of the time that needs this, or might be very cold a lot of the time. And the fact that there's this jolly piece of ice, actually he's kind of jolly, but then he gets stuff quite quickly, doesn't he? And that this is an expression of what this child needs in its life. You honestly can't tell if it's because this child needs to relate something to relate to or something to cool it down

and make it feel more comfortable. And I'm really trying to navigate away from your question. You're doing great. But I think the sweet thing is, is that I would not have been able to predict until I discovered myself in the script, who might have been the child or the whatever, who would have had my if,

but it all completely makes sense when you finally find out. And that's the beautiful thing about all of them in the movie. And only because I love tooting her horn, obviously, and I love embarrassing her. But I will say the first day that the trailer dropped, the first thing I was sent from Paramount were fan drawings on the internet of Blossom within hours of the trailer dropping. And I thought that was something so interesting because my girls love Blossom. And I said, what do you love about Blossom? And they said, she's so cool.

And I said, like how? And they go, she's so rock and roll. And I just thought that was really cool that they thought that the way you dress and the way you talked was very confident in all these different things. But it's funny that Blossom immediately hit people enough that they would sit down and draw her for their own selves,

which I thought was amazing. Is this what... I'll send them to you. I love that you give me that compliment. and then the last time I saw some immediately hit people enough that they would sit down and draw her for their own selves, which I thought was amazing. Is this what... I'll send them to you. I did most of them. I love that you gave me that compliment. You came up with the... Sure.

I don't look like... If they were drawing me. That was so funny. That was very good. A very good answer, by the way, Phoebe. Is that where guardian angels come from, do you think? That idea of an imagination working very hard and wanting to be looked after or having someone to talk to?

It's really amazing that you say that because I think there's one scene in the movie, especially, maybe two, but one scene in the movie where we, in my opinion, I think we cross that threshold. That's my belief system, that your if is a representation of, I forget who said it, was it Henry Miller or something? He said, stop believing in heaven because you're in it right now or something. So that the idea that your imaginary friend, instead of a sort of a mystical or religious aspect

to a guardian angel, they're right next to you. They're there to help you out and always have been. That became sort of the big crossover moment towards a guardian angel. Can I ask you both as writers and esteemed award-winning writers, when you're sitting there presumably at your laptop, John starting with you as you wrote the movie, you have your laptop, presumably you have the screenwriter's software, Final Draft, and you're there. Do you write and then a 12 foot purple monster appears,

brackets, you do this designers, or you know, have you designed these creatures yourself? Yes, as I was writing, I was actually sketching, and I'm a horrible artist, but I had the original sketches of what he would look like, and I actually showed my girls as I was writing the script, so I brought them in on the process. But yeah, I'm writing that the way I write,

I don't know how you write, but the way I write yeah, I'm writing that the way I write, I don't know how you write, but the way I write is I basically direct the movie every single day and there's a little piece of the movie and another piece of the movie. And when I keep going and I get all the scenes in my head and I can see the movie and the credits are rolling, I run to a computer and write it. So I write very fast,

but I've thought about it for a year and a half. Phoebe, is that you or not? No, I'd love to direct a movie in my head and then run to my computer and write it all down. No, I, it's quite sporadic, but in terms of things walking into the scene that surprise you, that's the kind of mecca for me that you're in. And you can only really get there by writing something a bit boring so that the part of your imagination goes, oh, bloody hell. Let's get out of here. Let's put something big and blue in there, big and purple in there. And I think, so that's, for me, it's the best bits that I feel and the most successful bits that I've written have always come out of me slightly boring myself first, and then having

to invent something exciting. That's amazing. I feel as though we should probably warn our listener that this has an emotional heft to it. I was sitting next to Gabby Roslin at the screening, who basically sobbed all the way through the film. I believe she's interviewed you as well and sobbed through the interview, which is poor, I think. Anyway. Gabby, we love you. I mean, it was amazing. Anyway, are you surprised, Phoebe, by the emotional heft that it has? No, when I read it, I really felt the depth of it. And it's so light touch, but it really

speaks to something really profound, which is that we all are slightly embarrassed about the idea of our inner child, or something that we can speak to that relates to that little child, like an imaginary friend, and yet we all know how important it is. And the idea of sitting around this room, there's like seven of us in this room now, and if all of us, we all have a little imaginary friend probably sat next to us, and if we can take a moment to imagine what each other's might have been, or there might be a little squirrel there or, you know, a tree that could talk there. It's just so incredibly moving, that idea, because it makes it okay, and it's not sort of cheesy or frightening to connect back

to that idea. And everyone immediately starts smiling and crying at the same time. And that is an extraordinary achievement to make everyone laugh and smile. John and Phoebe, we're out of time. Thank you very much, achievement to make everyone laugh and smile. Mason with Lord Hanks, I would have to say, in terms of making you feel fine for doing the interview. I got the sense that you're enjoying it. I haven't seen the film yet, but I'm really looking forward to it now. So we're going to review it next week when it comes out. The idea that it reduced somebody to tears, and even in the interview, reduced somebody to tears is great. But honestly, what a lovely conversation. What great guests. And I didn't even mention Quiet Place. I mean, I did the forehand.

You sort of, yeah. And there's a new Quiet Place on the way. Anyway, and I asked the Lindsay Anderson question because I thought you would have wanted me to. Yes, absolutely. I thought that got a fantastic response. It actually sounded to me like it was the first time somebody had said it to them. Well done. Yeah, absolutely. Anyway, so that is going to be reviewed on next week's program with John Krasinski and a whole host of incredible voice talents, Steve Carell, Matt Damon, John Stewart, and of course Phoebe Waller-Bridge. So now, last week we had Joshua Connor on the show and he is the star of La Quimera,

which is, I mean, he is the man of the moment. Anyway, I'll, he is the man of the moment anyway. He is. So, Lakimera, which is defined as an imaginary monster compounded of two incongruous parts, an illusion or fabrication of the mind, especially an unrealized dream. So, this is a, how do we describe this, magical realist, 80 set melancholy caper from writer director Alicci Ruocca, who made the wonders and happiest lads row. Josh O'Connor, who I've loved in everything from Only You to The Crown, who said he once wrote a letter to the director by writing her name on it and just putting Italy and was then surprised when it didn't turn up. So he's Arthur, British archaeologist with the gift of finding things. He can divine the presence of burial sites.

He was once an academic, now he's become a tomb raider. But as you said before, not in the romantic sort of Indiana Jones, Lara Croft way, but Tom Baroli. It's a seedy nighttime affair which sees people digging up graves under cover of darkness in the shadow of power stations on the run from the cops with his fellow Tom Baroli. Here's a clip. Look at them. Look at them. What they're doing makes them feel important. They feel like art, traffickers, predators, but they're just tiny cogs in the wheel. At our service. One day the rust will eat them away. Nothing will be left. We kept cutting there to machines pounding as she was saying that they're just cogs and

the rust will eat them away. So the director says that the plot of this is inspired by the Gran Grazia, the great raid, which was a big thing in the 80s, treasure hunting for Etruscan culture. She said, for 2,000 years, these sacred artifacts had remained intact. They were seen as sacred objects, not things to be sold. Then all of a sudden, people started looting the tombs and temples. So the tombarelli were a local phenomenon, but on a wider level, they represent the moment where capitalism becomes a part of us all. You can read the film in that way. Arthur has got this white suit, but it's disheveled, it's mucky, it looks like he's just woken up in a gutter or

indeed a grave. We meet him after he's had a spell in prison, he's in debt, he's haunted by the memory of Benyamina, who's the one thing he can't find. He can divide tombs, but he can't find Benyamina. He has dreams of her knitting wool and of a garment that she's wearing unraveling because it's caught in the ground. Isabella Rossellini is Beniamina's mother, Flora, who has this undying fondness for Arthur, I think because it's a connection to Beniamina. And living in this sort of decrepit house with Italia, who is sort of like an unpaid maid, and at one point we hear that she was going to be a singing student, but she can't sing. But she too finds a connection with Arthur and his sour, melancholy presence.

So the film's got more than a hint of Fellini about it, kind of carnival-esque, rogues gallery of faces and the cronies with whom Arthur has fallen into the grave robbing. One of them says at one point, never mind the souls, the Etruscans left these here for us. This has been waiting 200 years, it's a gift to us. And then there's a lot of Orpheus in the underworld in the search for Yordici going on. And then there's the use of music, which is kind of like a Greek, Koric accompaniment. And then occasionally it's slapstick. There are a couple of chase scenes with the cops in which they speak to film up. So it's got this, it's slapstick. There are a couple of chase scenes with the cops in which they speed the film up. It's got this kind of buster Keaton. There's one point when he

rushes around to a house to punch somebody, it's slightly too fast. It's really hard to define. Carnivalesque is one of the words, magical realist, but it is a caper, but a very melancholy caper. When it played at Cannock, it got a nine-minute standing evasion. I suspect that there will be some people who will see it and after nine minutes will think, I've lost patience with this. Where is it all going? Again, Alicii Ruwaka said in an interview, people will say, I struggled to get into this film, which is fantastic. I'm pleased. We don't need to get inside everything. I love the fact of a filmmaker making a film that said, yeah, you might find it hard. That's great. Personally, I really loved it, not least because

I love Josh O'Connor. I just think there's something about the way he inhabits this bedraggle, haunted, lost character. I also like the film's irreverence. I like the fact that it is an archaic and unruly, beautifully shot by Ellen Luvart who's worked with Vim Venders, Ennis Varder, Claire Denis, Sarah Gaffer, and Eliza Hitman, Leo's character. She really gets that kind of mix of the earthy and the ethereal. It's a very hard film to describe and it is not for everyone. Some people will just roll their eyes and go, I don't get it. But I found myself really enchanted by it and I love Josh O'Connor. Ava Rose, struggling first year film student. I've seen Alice Rawlwacka's La Quimera twice now and I think I can accurately describe both viewing experiences as nothing short

of a life changing event. I went into my first viewing alone with very little knowledge of the film, but almost immediately found my mind spinning with the sheer sagacity I was witnessing. Josh O'Connor's performance as Arthur is rightfully the heart of the film, but almost immediately found my mind spinning with the sheer sagacity I was witnessing. Josh O'Connor's performance as Arthur is rightfully the heart of the film, and Roarvaka creates an incredible connection between the audience and a man they hardly know anything about. A man whose backstory is barely hinted at through limited dialogue and hazy sequences that could be memory or dream. I found myself thinking about this film days after I had finished it, enjoying it even more as time went by and the memory of it fermented in my mind. Ava, thank you very much for being in the movies like Kimera.

Perfectly put. Back in a moment after this. So we just wanted to tell you about what our friends at Rooftop Film Club are up to. As you know, they are London's king of outdoor cinema. More than just a movie with rooftop experiences located at Bussey Building in Peckham and Roof East in Stratford. Sit back, relax, get cosy in a blanket and use the QR code on your seat to have food and drink delivered directly to you.

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What we can promise is a warm welcome and a comfortable room amidst all the joyful chaos. Lobster Mom. Life's a trip. Make the most of it at Best Western with over 4,200 hotels worldwide. Well, correspondence at co-manage.com is how you get in touch with us. Don't forget, take two for the Vanguardista bonus section for paying customers. Lots of Q&A, some interesting Q&A stuff today, and some more

bonus reviews as well. But there is a movie which you'll have seen advertised on posters, bus stops, and the side of the bus indeed as it floats past, and it's got apes in it. So it's that time again as we inhabit strange-speaking monkeys. Take it away. Kingdom of the Planet of the Apes, which is, I mean, okay, just to do the technical. Fourth installment in the Planet of the Apes reboot series that began with, you remember this, Rise of the Planet of the Apes, followed by Dawn of the Planet of the Apes. Isn't it Dawn before Rise? So it's Rise, Dawn, War, and so now Kingdom. Already and inevitably, this has been announced as the first part of a new triology carrying on the legacy of the previous triology, which, you know, fun.

Trilogy. Trilogy. Yeah. But I'm an Elvis fan, so we have to say triology. So directed by Wes Ball, best known for the Maze Runner films, written by Josh Friedman, whose feature credits include Spielberg's War of the Worlds, James Cameron's upcoming and endlessly upcoming Avatar movies. Oh, my Ken doll just fell off the wall. Never mind. Several genera- What does that mean? That's, I think that's significant. Ken has walked out.

Something has happened there. The spirits have moved. So several generations after the events of war, which ended with Caesar, you remember the anti-Saxon character, Caesar, dying, this isn't a plot spoiler because that is all finished, dies after leading his tribe to the sanctuary of the Oasis. That was that trilogy completed. So, many generations later, humans have regressed into feral states while the apes of the dominant civilization, we meet young chimpanzee Noah from the eagle tribe. They train eagles. He's on the brink of adulthood. He and two friends have to go and get eagle eggs that they can then hatch and train their eagles. And whilst doing so, their paths cross with that of an echo, an echo being a human.

Then their tribe is overrun by the tribe of vicious Proximus Caesar, who has taken on the mantle of Caesar, but has corrupted all the teachings of Caesar, which is to do with, apes together strong, now enslaves others, has made this camp in which what he wants to do is to get inside this huge cavernous area where he thinks there is something from the lost human civilization that he can use. And due to various shenanigans, everybody ends up at that encampment and they have to figure out whether ape and human can live and work together or not. Here is a clip from Kingdom of the Planet of the Apes. This is important.

They get cold. Show mercy. Okay, so you get the general gist. So the basic plot recalls elements of Beneath the Planet of the Apes, Battle for the Planet of the Apes, although because it's the first installment in the trilogy, it's really only the setup of both of those. There's also echoes of the original Planet of the Apes. There's a little quote from the original theme and nods to the original. The film takes a while to find its feet. Some of the early set up stuff is, I have to say, a bit shonky. Both in the narrative sense, there's a lot of, okay, yeah, when are we going to move on? And also in the kind of the visuals look a little bit like the original Spider-Man, you

know, the first Sam Raimi Spider-Man in which the swinging through the, you know, through the urban jungle in that particular case just looked very, very digital and very computer gamey. There's quite a lot of stuff in which conflicts between the various tribes of apes and the human element and just stuff going on. It's a lot of stuff without very much having any impact. Then we get into the second hour, and it's not a short film.

We get to the encampment and things finally start to move, and then you get echoes of Mad Max and the design of the encampment and everything starts to move forward and the film starts to find its feet. I think this is a genuine ongoing problem with things that are envisaged at any point as look this is going to be a trilogy. Even if you think well it might be a standalone film but it might be a trilogy, there's no urgency to get on with the narrative and it's something which is bothering me more and more with every single thing that we see now being the first part of a trilogy. There are a couple of precipitous action sequences.

I'm terrified of heights and there are a couple of climbing sequences which are very well done and did have me gripping the edge of my seat. It does feel like it's more driven by market awareness than by actual story need. As you know, I'm a huge fan of the first five. I think the first five were very, very big part of my childhood and indeed my adult life. The Burton was a misstep, but the trilogy that then followed, the one that predates this,

actually I thought was very well done. This is an interesting setup for the next part, and in its final movement, it gets somewhere and it does something interesting. You think, oh well, the next part and in its final movement, it gets somewhere and it does something interesting. You think, oh well, the next film might be, but I do feel like two hours or so as a setup for the next movie is not really good enough. So it's fine. It really starts slowly. There's a huge amount of waffle at the beginning, and then when it gets into the second hour, it gets somewhere that suggests that the next chapter is going

to be interesting. It's not great. It's not bad. It's hmm. So it feels as though you're watching a prequel. You are watching a prequel, yeah. The thing that troubles me about this is, as somebody who loved all the first five Planet of the Apes movies, each one of them is a standalone story that does its own job. So there's First Planet of the Apes, which is the big reveal in which we see the Statue of Liberty. Then there's Beneath the Planet of the Apes, which is a thing about nuclear Armageddon.

Then there's Escape from Planet of the Apes, which is a much younger aimed film, which is taking it back to the beginning of the story. Then there's Conquest of the Planet of the Apes, which is absolutely to do with civil unrest. Then there is Battle for the Planet of the Apes, which is a conclusion to the story. All of those are tightly compacted films. There is just some,

and they all incidentally work as completely standalone films. I think that the first three of this series worked as a trilogy and they worked well. This feels like, okay, we're starting again. Why? Because it's Planet of the Apes and it is a saleable IP. Unlike Fall Guy, everyone knows Planet of the Apes. Like I said, there are things in it that are good and certainly in the second hour it becomes gripping and interesting. But the first hour is baggy as heck and it really shouldn't be. Mason Harkness There's more of this joy to be had on Take Two, which has landed alongside this particular here take. But that's the end of

this particular show. This has been a Sony Music Entertainment production put together for you with Love and Care by Lily, Gully, Vicky, Zacky, Matty and Bethy. The producer was Jim, the redactor was Simon. Mark, what is your film of the week? Mark McLaughlin Well, because I'm a militant champion of Powell and Pressburger, and because I would love people to go and see this and then go and check out every single one of the Archer's films, I am going for Made in England. Take Two is available right now where you got this podcast from. Thank you for listening. We'll be back in a bit. See you after this.