Kermode & Mayo’s Take - LARRY DAVID: Curb star who falls out with everyone in SHRINK THE BOX

Episode Date: May 28, 2024

He’s grumpy, belligerent, stubborn, filterless and has to win every single argument. We ask how Larry David has any friends left and why he is so concerned with manners, yet is rude to virtually everyone he meets. Plus, Ben and Nemone look at why some people find Curb Your Enthusiasm excruciating whilst others just can’t get enough of the hit show.   We want to hear about any theories we might have missed, what you’ve thought of the show so far and your character suggestions. Please drop the team an email (which may be part of the show): [e-mail]    NEXT CLIENTS ON THE COUCH. Find out how to view here Michael, Office (USA. Season 1)  Chandler, Friends (selected episodes)  Sydney, The Bear (season 2)  Tyrion, Game of Thrones (seasons 1&2).  Alex and Bradley, The Morning Show (Season 1)   CREDITS  We used clips from Season 7 of Curb Your Enthusiasm. Episodes 1,4,5,7,10.    Starring (in the clips we used):   Larry David as Larry David,   Jeff Garlin as Jeff Greene  Cheryl Hines as Cheryl David  Susie Essman as Susie Greene  Jason Alexander as Jason Alexander  Bob Einstein as Marty Funkhouser  Catherine O'Hara as Bam Bam  Anita Barone, as Denise  Peter Mackenzie as Man in Shorts  Paul Webster as Larry's Friend Jim    Created and written by: Larry David. Directed by Larry Charles, Alec Berg, David Mandel, Bryan Gordon, Jeff Schaffer and Andy Ackerman,    Produced by: Linda Balaban, associate producer  Alec Berg, executive producer  Larry Charles, executive producer  Larry David, executive producer (showrunner) / executive producer  Jeff Garlin, executive producer  Tim Gibbons, executive producer  David Mandel, executive producer  Megan Murphy, co-producer  Erin O'Malley, executive producer  Gavin Polone, executive producer  Jeff Schaffer, executive producer (showrunner)  Laura Streicher, producer    Produced by HBO and Production Partners.   Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts.  To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [e-mail].  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's behind the Dairy Farmers of Canada Blue Cow logo on your favourite dairy products? It's high Canadian standards, which means we meet 42 food safety requirements, we work with animal care experts and work towards a sustainable future. That's dairy farming forward. Hello, it's Simon here. And Mark. Thank you for listening. There's a special thing in our feed here and it's shrink the box.

This week Ben Lemoine will be putting Larry David in therapy. Larry plays himself in the wildly successful Curb Your Enthusiasm. He's a cantankerous old fart who gets upset by any trivial thing and is more than happy to inflict that pain on the people around him. So something of a kindred spirit. Somehow even though he offends and upsets everyone around him they always come back for more. What makes this guy tick?

Precisely. So, on with the show. Let me give you a little tip, okay? For traveling, a little traveling tip. Try not to wear shorts. Not all that attractive to look at for five hours. You kidding? No, I wear these on every flight when I travel.

Cause it's very comfortable. These planes, if you notice, get very hot. Ah, yes. I'm sorry, I didn't see where I had to check with the person I'm sitting next to while I should wear... I'm comfortable in pajamas, but I don't wear pajamas on a plane. I like to sing. I like to whistle. I like to play the bongos on my leg. I like to imitate horses. But I don't do it. Okay?

Yeah. Because there's somebody sitting next to me. Okay. You're very uptight, dude. Very uptight. Uptight? I don't think it's uptight. It's just shorts, man. I don't think it's uptight. You've never seen a man's legs? Yeah, they're's somebody sitting next to me. Okay. You're very uptight, dude. Very uptight. Uptight? I don't think it's uptight. It's just shorts, man. I don't think it's uptight.

You've never seen a man's legs? Yeah, they're grotesque. What if there were a woman's in a skirt? Would you say that to her? If a woman's in a skirt? If they were hairy. Oh, okay. Ben Bailey-Smith here.

And I am Nimone Metaxas. And welcome back once more to the podcast that puts your favourite protagonists into therapy. Our psychotherapist, Nimone, here will enlighten us on why they might behave the way they do. And I'm here listening and learning with you guys. Nimone, how's it going? It's good. It's good. What a clip to start with. I know. And there's going to be more of this. So it's one of those sort of strap-in type episodes.

Yes. Tell us about that first clip. there's going to be more of this. So it's one of those sort of strap in type episodes. Tell us about that first clip. That was Larry David, the grumpy belligerent and some might consider really rude guy at the centre of curb your enthusiasm in season seven, which is the one we're going to focus on for this, the purposes of this programme. What he says is preposterous and sounds preposterous, but as we'll find out, there's always a payoff to his sometimes outlandish theories in a brilliant circular way. And I think that's why people love this show. It shows you a metaphorical gun at the beginning of an episode or even a few episodes

back that you know somehow later on is going to get fired. Yeah, structurally is genius, isn't it? There's, it's always so satisfying. It's, it's, each episode is a bit like a great pop song where you know that the final chord is going to give you that emotional closure. It's not going to leave it open-ended. So you get that big release. And even if it's not a huge laugh at the end, which it usually is, it's unbelievably satisfying. And this particular series of Curb Your Enthusiasm also involves Seinfeld, which of course Larry David was involved in writing also involves Seinfeld, which of course Larry David was involved in

writing alongside Jerry Seinfeld. The levels of metaness as we get into Curb Season 7 is just... Beyond. Yeah, it's like a black hole folding into a black hole. And we should probably stipulate if we haven't done previous pods, the Larry David we're focusing on is the case the character definitely all right, so Reminder before we begin There's some elements some of these episodes that have very adult issues But there will also be spoilers as well for season 7 so as with every shrink the box episode

If you really don't want to know go and check it out come back and join us in this in this conversation So coming up we're gonna have swan killing Leaving the security tag on your trousers and very adult behavior in moving vehicles And we're gonna explore why the hell we root for someone who's so stubborn And filter listen and self-centered and and why we enjoy this this cringetastic world of Larry David So buckle up. It's another shrink the box. Alright, so here's our regular scheduled recap, season seven of Curb Your Infusism. It's

widely believed and I would agree with this to be one of the best seasons and it also contains the infamous Seinfeld reunion. Each season sort of has a vaguely overarching theme that starts and that goes from right at the beginning all the way through to the end. Then you sort of get these A and B and sometimes C strands within each episode. So we meet Larry, he's separated from Cheryl, his wife of many years and he's been living with Loretta, matriarch of the Black family. This is a family that Cheryl persuaded Larry to take,

and he didn't want them. And then- That was after Hurricane Edna, wasn't it? After Hurricane Edna, and Leon Black, and Larry sort of became quite fast friends, and Leon's kind of his guide into, you know, how to be a bit cooler, how to be a bit more street. So Larry now is, is, is he's got itchy feet in this relationship.

Wow. His big problem is that Loretta has cancer and he wants to break up with her, but how do you break up with the cancer sufferer? But in the end, Loretta breaks up with him and we'll get into a bit of that later. And when Larry runs into Cheryl for the first time since last season, he finds out that she appreciated him more when he had a job. There's part of him you think, okay, maybe he could win her back. So he accepts this offer from NBC for a Seinfeld reunion show, which you get the feeling is

something you never would have even considered. Well, again, we'll come on to that. He never wanted to even considered. Well again we'll come on to that. He never wanted to do that. And Larry casts Cheryl as George's ex-wife, but he's angry after he notices this chemistry develop between Jason Alexander as George and Cheryl. Sorry, Jason Alexander as Jason Alexander of course. Yes, playing George. Playing George, who is Larry David. It's already hurting my brain.

Yeah, after many discussions with the cast, he quits the project. And while the reunion airs, he's visited by Cheryl and then we feel like getting back together could be on the cards. But Larry's upset when he finds out that she doesn't respect Wood. Do you respect Wood? You respect Wood in a moment? Definitely.'t respect wood. Do you respect wood? You respect wood in the moment? Definitely. I respect wood.

Um, and with that in mind, all of that in mind, uh, give us a bit of a background on our client this week. Okay. So top line client is male, 53 years old initially, but actually by season seven, he's near a 62 years old bit about his background is Jewish, his writer. He is Larry David. He's very Brooklyn. He's near a 62 years old. A bit about his background, he's Jewish, he's writer, he's Larry David. He's very Brooklyn. He's very Brooklyn. But he's out in LA.

Married to wife Cheryl, but then they divorce. Larry David has a propensity to rub people up the wrong way. That is everybody. Every single person. He's got this thing where he's pretty sure that he's right. Pretty, pretty, pretty, pretty. Pretty sure that he's right. Pretty, pretty, pretty, pretty. Pretty sure that he's right and the rest of the world is wrong. Of course, which he might be right about that.

Very possibly. Nimone, if he came to you, like what issues do you think you'd spot like straight off the bat? He's clearly so confrontational about everything. He could be challenging from the off. He falls out with everyone. I'm going to do a typical Metaxas tease now and let you know later what I think he'd be like as a client.

But the first thing I think I'd notice, and this would potentially be with me, if he came to me for help, Larry David's propensity to fall out in any given situation, there's hardly an episode where he doesn't fall out with someone. And in fact, in another episode, another series, I think, it's Jeff that calls him the social assassin, to which Larry replies, I guess I am. In series seven, episode three, it becomes apparent that Larry's usual socially self unaware fashion means that he's fallen out with the entire cast of Seinfeld. So there's Julia Louis Dreyfus who plays Elaine because Larry grilled her daughter about a party she went to and then she said she hadn't

been. He got all paranoid that Julia was actually blanking him when she didn't agree to meet him but actually he'd just been asking the wrong daughter. Then there's Jason Alexander who we've also talked about who plays George in Seinfeld which is the character based on Larry because Larry grabs Jason and goes to a restaurant to talk about the Seinfeld reunion, and Larry harangs the waiter at the restaurant after their lunch to find out how much Jason has actually tipped, because he believes

the tips should be equal. What I find interesting, in fact fascinating, is that you would go back to a restaurant where you and I had a meal for the sheer purpose of harassing a waiter for the most insignificant incident I'm sure that's ever happened in this man's life. We split a check and he doesn't want to coordinate the tip. Why should I?

Why do I need to coordinate the tip? You got it with a friend, you're tipping concert. Why are we in concert? There's no concert. There's no concert. And we'll say more on this later, but Jerry, Jerry Seinfeld just fuels the fire. But the biggest falling out actually in this particular episode is with the NBC executive who they need onside to greenlight the Seinfeld reunion show.

Larry was annoyed that the executive gave him what he perceived as the kind of nosebleed seats miles away from the court at a basketball game. I always, I mean, think about this. I've been listening to a fantastic podcast on projective identification actually, and partly what they're saying there, which is where part of you means that you believe the world is the way you see it, and then you find evidence to support that theory everywhere you look. There's quite a few layers to projective identification, because you also want people to experience the world the way that you do, or you want that to be the truth, if you like. And Larry's kind of doing this in every, you know,

he's convinced that Julia doesn't, it actually doesn't like him. He's sort of a paranoia about that. And that Jason isn't tipping the same amount as him. I mean, in fact, he isn't, but does it really matter? Yeah. And then- Are these hills to die on is a question

you could ask Larry David in every single episode. Exactly. He thinks that his way is the right way. He cannot let even the smallest thing go if it doesn't fit into his world view. And persecutory anxiety comes from Melanie Klein's theory of object relations. That's our internal world again split into good and bad objects. And Klein's view was that actually young infants experience a hell of a lot of anxiety. One is caused by the death instinct from within, the trauma of birth, and in experiencing primal urges like hunger and frustration,

and whether their needs are being met or not, all resulting in various forms of anxiety. That's one way of looking at it. And if we took a more diagnostic approach, which some do, he does exhibit behaviors consistent with what might have been called oppositional deficient disorder in the past, certainly not thought of as that now, can be thought of in a medical model in the world of autism sometimes as pathological demand avoidance, but that's even changed to persistent demand avoidance, which actually

means that you sort of take in Larry's point of view as well in that. And you can see how that's a more kind of loose description and gives a bit more freedom and agency to the person who's experiencing those behaviors or kind of exhibiting those behaviors. So often losing your temper, arguing with family and coworkers. And often we see Larry argue, and we do think he's got a point of view when Ted Danson offers him a dessert.

And obviously, again, this is an example of Larry getting into a tit for tat argument, where some of us might go, oh, do you know what? I'm just going to have a piece of the pie. And I don't even think it's some of us in the moment. I think the majority of us would say what he's saying, but internalise it or say it in secret, in private to a friend later. Funnily enough, there's a season of Curve. I've got the DVDs and I can't remember which season it is, maybe four or five, but the front cover is him in front of a packed street of different people walking along, a huge packed crowd of body to body, but all of their

heads have been superimposed with his head. And the tagline is deep down, you know, he's you. Yeah. And it's so true, isn't it? That he will... Deep down in the keywords there, I think. Yeah. We push those things down. We suppress people working in the world of neurodiversity now would say actually to enable someone to be comfortable with the way that they feel and being able to express themselves

is really important. So you'd be working with that in therapy in a world that absolutely doesn't want to accept that as behaviour from anyone, least of all a 60 plus year old man. And presumably you'd have to be working towards like how to carry himself out there in the world outside of the therapy room because this behaviour that he displays affects friendships and close relationships all the time. Like it's a wonder he has any friends at all. It'd be fascinating if he came with that to therapy and said,

I'm lonely. I'm lonely. I haven't got any friends. I don't think there's the ability to mentalise for Larry. And that might be that he's still in quite a young place, doesn't notice still in that world of omnipotence, like why the world should bend to my will, literally. Going back to that friendship thing, he wants to look like a good friend. Yeah, I mean, he knows that's important.

And I think it is important to him whether he can feel that, or like you say, understands that to be important, but it often ends in disaster for him. Does he really know what friendship is or what it can look like? Take the empty gesture argument, which is... He says, anything I can do. Yes. Larry says to Funkhouser, look, if there's anything I can do, let me know. When Funkhouser is talking about his sister's mental health problems. And then he's completely affronted when Funkhouser actually takes him up on it. Yeah, actually, you can come and visit her. He's like, no, I didn't really say it.

It's just the thing you say. Yeah. Why? Why? And then Funkhouser makes Larry agree to come and visit his sister Bam Bam, who we said played excellently by Catherine O'Hara. And when she says, I'm bored, Geoff says, let me know if there's anything I can do. So this is where again, they take it to the nth degree because of course they end up in the bedroom. That's Jeff and bam bam, not Larry. And we see this time and time again, someone asks for a favor, things are delicate, sensitive, but not only does Larry transgress what we would consider or in a neurotypical way we might look at it and go, oh, we shouldn't do that. He pushes it, usually completely out of awareness, to the worst possible outcome. And as viewers, we can sometimes and quite often feel vicarious embarrassment, which

actually Larry doesn't exhibit at all. It sort of washes off his back. Can you tell us a bit about this type of comedy? Because some people have to walk out of the room when curb is on, it's the shame or the kind of embarrassment is that high. Other people love it. So why does it become such a polarizing form of entertainment? There's a train crash element, you know, we learned this from the office, the office felt

Ricky Gervais's office felt like a gear shift in the history of comedy, because it took the comedy of embarrassment and cringe and just upped it by, you know, a huge percentage to the point where you're like chewing your fingers off in pain. But it's still a very traditional approach of squeezing tension and then releasing it, which is sort of the bedrock of all comedy. So you've got the added soap opera thing where you're like, I want

to see these people have their miserable lives play out in front of me. People watch East Enders or Coronation Street for these reasons. And this kind of cringe comedy, a la the office and curb kind of delivers the same thing. It's like his actual human beings and look at the mess they're making. And thankfully, I'm not in it this time. There is an element of it's not happening. It's not happening to me. To me. I'm watching from the sidelines. If I really was in that room, I would want a hole to appear and swallow me up. But you can be this kind of placid observer. And then of course, you become one with the show when you have the magical involuntary body response of laughter. It's very special. And it's so cleverly done. And of course, they build and build and build. It gets even worse in that episode. Because not only does Larry know about Jeff having sex with Bam Bam Funkhouser.

So he's kind of, he's in on this on this supposed secret later when they're having dinner at Jeff and Susie's of course, you've guessed it Bam Bam, who also crosses social norms with speech, blurts out at the dinner table that she had sex with Jeff in front of everyone, including Susie, Jeff's wife. So as usual, this leaves Larry trying to dig himself out of multiple holes from stealing food from the fridge, which he berated someone else for doing earlier on, to of course knowing about Bam Bam and Jeff.

Are you kidding? She's emotionally unstable, are you a believer? What did this woman say? You know, I don't mind if you take liquid, but when you take regular food, I have a problem. I didn't take anything. That's crazy. Speak the truth. Help him with the truth, would you, Jeff?

I wouldn't know. I actually wasn't there in the kitchen. You were. You were. Oh, no, you weren't. I know where you were. You were in bed with me. What? Come on. What did you say? What did you say? What the f*** is she talking about, Jeff?

What the hell is going on? Oh, I didn't know anything. It's just, it's just amping, amping, amping, amping, amping, amping. I swear to character to add, Suzie. Oh, yeah. Because if there's anyone that can out-scream Larry, it's Suzie. It's Suzie, exactly. She's phenomenal.

Again, the structure of the show with the multiple payoffs is, as we said at the top, is incredibly satisfying. But can we talk about these payoffs and this tapestry that they weave in terms of Larry? Well, I love how most episodes, something is dropped early on in the episode, which then becomes a thread which winds through. It's like a little Easter egg almost, and you wonder, are they going to build on that? Yeah. In fact, which one winds through. Or are they going to build on that? Yeah, in fact which one of those Easter eggs are they going to build on? More often than not one of them ends up being key in the big reveal at the end of the episode

and in series seven episode two of this series of Curb it's all sex. All mistaken acts of performed in moving vehicles. Larry is trying to find a way to split up with Loretta, as you mentioned at the beginning, because he no longer wants, he doesn't want to play carer to a girlfriend who's got cancer. Leon, his housemate who came to stay in season six, and he's absolutely brilliant throughout, comes to his aid. Leon has to hide his lover in Larry's car when the aggrieved boyfriend comes looking for his girlfriend at Larry's house. So Larry's in the car with this other girl, the girl is bent over Larry's lap, Loretta assumes obviously that something's going on. Boom, she's out of there. And there is a final denouement in that episode actually where Jeff and Susie

swim off the road because she's actually been giving Jeff oral sex in the car. The eventual climax of that episode is brilliant. So we get into that point now of almost like medieval French fast. It has a complete French fast feel. And a lot of those old plays, even though they're like 500 years old, you know, sex would be a big part of it. Obviously it wouldn't be explicit because of the times, but sex is a big part of it. But partially clad people and running in and out. People appearing in different rooms. Oh my God, what's she doing here? be a big part of it. Obviously it wouldn't be explicit because of the times, but sex is a big part of it.

But partially clad people and running in and out. People appearing in different rooms, oh my god, what's she doing here? All that kind of stuff. And the audience knowledge of what's... Yeah, where everyone is. Look behind you. Yeah, exactly that. Yeah, and you know, all those classic old tropes, mistaken identity, coincidence, irony, you know, they seem like foolish behaviour, but they serve this wider social commentary

and Curb is famous for all of that stuff. Listen, I think there's still a hell of a lot to talk about. There's quite a lot to go. Yeah, let's look at Larry's industrial levels of selfishness for sure and dig into why he's so stuck in his ways. Ponder why he's so obsessed with social etiquette and these rules that he makes, which is so bizarre when he is constantly working against the rules of polite society and how far he'll go to be right, you know?

So let's, we'll take a quick break, we'll see you after these ads unless you're a shrinker, of course and you subscribe to The Take, which is a great thing to do by the way and in that case there won't be any break But otherwise, yeah, we'll see you after this classic bit of Larry. Shame on you, Larry. An alarm went off in the store and I had to leave the store. I mean, don't they want your pants back? I have to bring them back and I'm going to. But I had to instill them. Anyway, how about some lemonade? How much is it?

A buck. A buck? Fine. Thank you very much. There you go. Are you kidding me? Oh my god. This is awful.

I'm not even joking. Who made that? Us. It's beautiful. You made it? Give me my money back. No. You can't. I want my even joking. Who made that? Us. You made it? Give me my money back. No!

I want my dollar back. Get out of here! Just get out of here! Fine, I'll get out. It's terrible. You stink! You stink! I'm going to report you guys for that.

Go ahead! I'm going to! Church! Closer! Bulls**t! Get out of here! What do we have here? Oh, it's an advertisement from BetterHelp Therapy. That's because Kermode Mayo's take where I sometimes step into Mark's patent leather wingtip shoes is brought to you by BetterHelp. You know, I'm no stranger to stress and anxiety and for me

sometimes it can be overwhelming and in those moments I can't tell you how important it is to have someone to talk to, someone you can share with you know and a therapy is such a safe space in terms of getting things off your chest and then to figure out how to work through whatever's weighing you down so if you're thinking of starting therapy, give BetterHelp a try. It's designed to be convenient, flexible, it works with your schedule so you can get access to BetterHelp when you need it most. Just fill out a brief questionnaire to get matched with a registered therapist

and switch therapists at any time for no additional charge. There's over a thousand therapists in the UK already. Our listeners get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com slash curmode. That's better. H-E-L-P dot com slash curmode. When slayed creatures return to the land of the living, it's up to a band of unlikely heroes to re-slay them. Welcome to the re-slayer's take. From the fantasy world of Critical Role, join Jasmine Bular, Jasmine Chung, Jasper Cartwright and Caroline Lux

alongside us, Game Masters Nick Williams and George Primavera, in a tabletop role-playing audio adventure using Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition. Adventure awaits in the ReSlayers take. New episodes drop weekly on Mondays wherever you stream your podcasts. We are back. All right, Lamone, Larry's total and utter selfishness. Can we just talk about the lemonade moment with the kids? Oh yeah, you bar-hole. But actually, it obviously tasted disgusting. It always does. Have you ever bought off the kids?

Well, I mean, kids have made some. So bad. So he is being honest. And there's a level to which, and he says this to their mom later on, I'm giving them a valuable piece of critique here. But obviously again, as you've alluded to, social norms would say, well, we'd just be like, oh, but actually how helpful is that? Yeah, that's a good point. So I oh, but actually how helpful is that in the long run?

Yeah, that's a good point. So I mean, he's sort of making a point. Yet his selfishness and I mean, I've said he's trapped, I think, in quite young behaviour and he acts from quite a young place and he doesn't demonstrate a lot of ability to be able to mentalise, to think for these children, it might be too much if I'm actually completely honest. There may be a way of delivering this critique that is a little bit, I can deliver it in a particular way. So he can't evaluate his or others' behaviours, see patterns, moderate his behaviour, evaluate why things are happening to him. It seems like he feels he's omnipotent so that the world revolves around him or so he thinks it should.

And he can't fathom when it doesn't. I wonder if that's partly to do with he's done everything he needs to do. He created the biggest show on the planet, made millions and millions of dollars. Which is Seinfeld. Yeah. And when we meet Larry for the first time, he's essentially retired. He doesn't have to do anything. So he's got nothing but time to overanalyze himself and put the world to rights and nothing to prove. Yeah. Whereas if you're busy writing Seinfeld 24 hours a day, you just haven't got the time to be that level

of head. Yeah. He'd however has never, ever, ever shown any interest in doing a Seinfeld reunion. In fact, I'm sure they've discussed it before. In fact, they've had offers before. And he's always, always said, no, why would we do that? They're always rubbish. Which probably happened in real life. Yeah, definitely. On some level. Suddenly though, he thinks,

hmm, perhaps I can get Cheryl back by casting her as George's ex-wife. So he does a total 180. Selfish, he's pretty abusive in trying to get the cast back together. He lies. There's a telling bit where he's persuading Jason Alexander to come on board for the reunion. Jason describes George, but of course George is based on Larry and written by Larry. And he can't stand hearing the truth about himself as Larry David. So clearly he's

none the wiser about his behaviour or he's in denial. That's Larry the character in the episode arguing with Jason, who plays Larry the character in Seinfeld about Larry. Yeah, it's like mirrors on mirrors on mirrors, it's infinite mirrors, it kind of hurts your head. It's a bit weird. So, and even though he thinks the character Larry David sort of thinks he's this omnipotent God, he is also a bit like a God because that's what writers are. Yeah. But he's also aware enough of his foibles because of course he has Jason initially saying, well, he's such an unlovable character, which he's written himself.

Yeah. So earlier we discussed how they take everything to like this peak curb point with the most excruciating things that they can think of, right? So whilst all this Seinfeld reunion is going on, which is sort of the superplot as we discussed. Yes. How do they top that? And what does it show about Larry? So alongside that in, I mean, let's take episode five, which incidentally is one of Larry's favorite episodes of this season.

The real Larry's favorite episodes. The real Larry's favorite episodes, entitled Denise Handicap, which will give you some idea of where we're going. And it shows Larry at his most selfish self-serving really. He strikes up a conversation, seemingly innocent one, with a woman in a neighboring table in a coffee shop. This is Denise. They really start to hit it off and they're kind of vibing about music and this musician and

they agree to a date. And then we see his face absolutely fall because when she comes round the table to give him her number, she's in a wheelchair. And she was obviously previously hidden behind the coffee table so he couldn't see that. And then you see his total judgment of this situation that he's got himself into and he couldn't see that. And then you see his total judgment of this situation that he's got himself into and he doesn't feel comfortable. It seems like he wants to back out of seeing her,

but he then finds out that Denise comes with certain benefits because she's in a wheelchair. Can I say something? What? I'm picking up a vibe here. Can I be perfectly honest? When I walked into your house, you gave me this look like, I don't know, like you were disappointed or something?

Okay. Ah! The thing is that when we first met, you were wearing a hat. And then you came to the door and I was like who is this? Oh, oh because you are bald. You're bald and I didn't know that you were bald and so it is like I said it's no big deal it's really not a problem. I get it. I get it. I had a hat on and then baldies showed up. I just didn't know. You feel I misrepresented myself. You thought I was a hair man. It was different because I thought you, you know.

Is it a problem for you? No, is it a problem for you? I mean, you're the one who has to live with it. I don't, you know, it's... No, it's not a problem for me. It's not a problem. Okay, but you know, there's options. If you've ever considered, you know, plugs or...

No, I haven't. Plugs? Plugs? Yeah, they make really... You mentioned plugs to me? You mentioned, you sit at this table, and I mentioned plugs? Are you serious? Just didn't know.

Yeah, I mean I didn't know when you wheeled away from the table that... Mm-hmm. That I'm a wheelie. That you're a wheelie. Right. I mean, it's a kind of classic curb... Yeah. Turn around, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You see the prejudice from both sides and you sort of go,

Oh, wait, who do I... who do I relate to here? Maybe I kind of relate to both of them and they both are sort of brutally honest. It's really clever because it mirrors an incident that happened earlier as well when Larry was being casually racist about a child that his friends had adopted. But then his friends are casually ableist about Denise, so you're constantly pushed to make a decision. You were constantly being challenged on our own level of judgment. Yeah. And prejudice. But it's also potentially an example of a different way of being in the world, his different perspective and the idea of neurodiversity and our different ways of being in the world

and the fact that there isn't a neurotypical kind of one way of being and that there are social norms that we adhere to, but that's, you know, where do they come from? Who is writing them? How have we all settled upon those? And why would we be holding other people to them to this sort of perceived standards and we'd be looking at that in the therapy room, not pathologising it, but kind of exploring together what he's subjecting other people to and what he feels is being subjected to himself. But with that binary thinking, is that something that could be one of the things that makes

him so frustrated, so angry and makes him lash out? He can really appear stuck in his ways. Actually, I wanted to mention something about his age as a factor. I mean, it's obviously a comedy trope and massive stereotype. The grumpy old man. The grumpy old man kind of stereotype. But there's a neurophysiological reason for this. I spoke to Dr. Daniel Levitin actually for my journeys in sound show for Six Music.

And he discussed us being far less likely to seek out new experiences as we age and the brain not taking in information in the same way as when we're younger and kind of wiring ourselves up for life. So that stops almost in early 20s. And he also talked about why it's good for brain health to keep seeking out new experiences and trying something new or having conversations with strangers as we age because that keeps our brain alert and forming new neural pathways. And that's one of the most neuroprotective things you can do after the age of about 50. We should talk about stimulation as well for Larry. There might be a case for him being overstimulated, which is why he can appear abrupt and rude.

Well let's dig into that and have a look at his non-existent filters as well. We'll be back in a moment. Nobody goes on vacation for the moments that are just... okay. That's why Sunwing vacationers go all in like it's a buffet of fun. Whether you're skimming the treetops like Tarzan's long-lost twin... or deep end swimming with your flippers and fins. Or maybe you're just perfecting the art of doing absolutely nothing. Whatever vacationer you are, with Sunwing, you save more so you can do more.

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To hear them in person, plan your trip at TNVacation.com. Tennessee sounds perfect. it. Okay and you are back in STB territory. So, Nimone, how come Larry bangs on about what should happen in social situations but is then completely ignorant to every other social norm? Like being polite, empathy for minorities being kind to children. We heard in that clip, he struggles with that. Sick people. I mean, the list is endless. I mean, as you as you've said in episode five, Larry asks the new parents if their adopted Chinese child is naturally good with chopsticks. At which point in almost every audience member

is cringing at this point. Why would you say it? Unwittingly racist. I mean, it's a brilliant play on his unconscious bias against minorities and how that can shift because he doesn't understand why that might be unacceptable. We see his lack of filter or self-awareness, but also feels the victimisation about being bald himself. He doesn't see that two-way street, he doesn't see it. I mean, he eventually ends up in an identity parade,

doesn't he, for taking too many napkins from one of the restaurants. The restaurant owner can't tell the difference between him and another bald guy. So they really, really... Who's black? The other guy's black. The other guy's black and bald, standing next to Larry David. He's bald.

And this is proving Larry's point, kind of. Interestingly, Larry David's social misfiring and misanthropism has been used to treat patients with schizophrenia, or it was certainly in the noughties. I think that there might be some issues with it now, but doctors showed recreated scenes from episodes of curb to schizophrenic patients as a kind of what not to do in social situations. Please don't do that. Why is it Larry feels a need to win everything, every argument, every social situation? He's got to be the winner. Again, I think that's to do with a sense of safety. But let's start with an example. His

flaunting of social convention after Funkhouser tells him it's not nice not to introduce his friend to the rest of them. Hey Jim. What's going on? How are you? How are you? Not bad. Just in town for the day. You're going back to New York? Yeah, taking a red eye tonight. Good to see you.

Good to see you. Take care. Take day. You going back to New York? Yeah, taking a red eye tonight. Good to see you. Good to see you. Take care. Take care. Why didn't you introduce us? He's from New York, you're never going to see him again for the rest of your life. But it's the courteous thing to do.

What, do you have to know his name? I don't have to know him. You have to know your name and shake your hand. It's a common courtesy when you're talking to someone. It's a pointless and unnecessary social convention to introduce every single person you know. This is the golf course, or the kind of golf playing episode. Larry ends up on the golf course behind Norm, who is very slow on the golf course, and obviously this enrages Larry. Larry ends up shouting at him. And I mean, everybody seems to get behind the idea that

Larry has in fact killed Norm, who's a fellow golfer with a heart condition, by shouting out at him on the course. Now Larry extends this idea of selfishness, or at least look of it, by going out onto the course the day after Norm dies when everyone else is abstained from playing as a mark of respect. But Larry gets hoisted by his own batard. Because Funkhouser doesn't introduce him to the stonemason at the wake. That man ends up writing the epitaph, son and swan killer on Larry's mom's headstone. Now this is after Larry ends up killing a swan in the same episode. There's a double murder, double homicide.

In, it's a double homicide. Larry maintains he hasn't killed Norm throughout that episode. He feels like he was totally in the right for shouting at Norm for being slow. Norm was slow. And he was, Larry was desperately trying to get his party onto the golf course quicker so that they would be in front of Norm. So it wasn't like he hadn't tried to be in front of Norm. And avoid that situation, let Norm play at the speed he wants to play. Exactly. He also

claims that the swan killing was simply in self-defense, which it may well have been, but it's the judgment that's brought to both of those happenings, which lead kindly to the conclusion that he doesn't care and he can be seen as stubborn in holding alternative views. But that is all they are in that instance. Alternative views, yeah. Well, they're another way, another lens with which to view the world or an alternative way of seeing what's happening and experiencing the world.

What about the stubbornness in the Krupke episode? Well he sings through that episode. Well he'd rather walk around with trousers on that have the security tag than pay for them. He justifies it because his trousers were lost in the dressing room. They went missing. Yeah so he should have replacement trousers. So the shop at the very least should...

They owe him a kindness. They owe him a kindness. And they do because the alarm goes off in the middle of him trying on these new trousers and that's why he ends up in the trousers with the security tag on and somehow the shop have actually lost his trousers. He'll do something to win an argument even if it inconveniences him. Look at the whole of series seven is about Larry trying to get Cheryl back. But at the end of series seven, Larry is not happy that Cheryl is getting on well with Jason Alexander in rehearsals for the Seinfeld reunion.

He's very sensitive, by the way. Oh, is he? Yes. Jason's sensitive? He's sensitive, he's funny, he's a little neurotic, so things like this. What are you kidding? You get under his skin. That's George! That's not Jason! That's Jason! That's George! he's a little neurotic, so things like this. What are you kidding? You get under his skin. That's George!

That's not Jason! That's Jason! That's George! That's all George and that's me! I wrote that stuff! You're not attracted to him! You're attracted to me! I'm George!

And this whole reunion, this huge amount of mass manipulation, he drops it in an eye blink to win a stupid argument. But is he annoyed by it? Because that's what you'd want to be asking him. Like, how annoyed are you that you've spent all this time and effort and manipulation of people to get to this point of Cheryl sitting on a sofa kissing you, which is where you wanted to be. Yeah, but the lack of respect for Wood. Oh my God. You had a cup like that at Julia's party. You were standing right by that table.

You left the ring stain on Julia's table. She blamed me the whole time, but it was you. You left the stain. Okay. Well, it's no big deal. You're right. You're right. It is no big deal. Having said that, I would love for you to call Julia and tell her that you left the ring stain.

I'm not calling Julia. Yeah. Just tell her that you were the one who left the stain on the empty table. Hold it one second. I'm not going to do that. That music feels so iconic. Oh, and they've also set up the having said that. Having said that? He and Jerry discussed having said that.

How to get out of saying a jerky thing. But I don't think it's because he feels bad for Julia and the stain on the table that he wants to kind of make her feel better that he's found the culprit. I think it's because it besmirches his good name. And that's debatable, because no one thinks that his name is good and no one cares. As Cheryl says, it doesn't really matter. He frequently gets in his own way and that is quite a often seen character trait, like a kind of ambivalence, like a push-pull. Like I want to do this, but this ends up happening.

So I don't actually, which can be a, you know, it can lead to a stuckness in life. Absolutely. And ways of working with that in therapy would be bringing self-awareness, what it feels like, what feels important in each moment. Can he reflect on what's happening for him? Oh yeah, I do want to get back with Cheryl.

Is it more important to get back with Cheryl? Is it more important for Julia to know who's left to stay on her coffee table? Yeah. So why do we root for him, Mal? There's moments of self-awareness that he shows. They're actually quite sweet. In episode one he bumps into Cheryl in a restaurant. It was just different. Like when you were working on Seinfeld. You had a job and you'd get up and you go like do, do something with other people.

Okay. Then you come home and it was like, that was the right amount of Larry. This is, that was too much. I understand, too much Larry. I get that. Okay, too much Larry. We can reduce Larry in half. We can reduce Larry to a third.

We can reduce Larry to three hours a day. That's slivers of Larry. I get that. Look, I understand. I've got 24ivers of Larry. I get that. It's very, it's a lot. I understand. I've got 24 hour, Larry. What, you think I like it? I mean, the self-awareness in that is amazing, really,

considering the lack of it elsewhere. And later in episode six, he says, I'm not used to giving people the benefit of the doubt. I'm not even sure I know how to do it. Another moment, a rare moment of self-awareness. Yeah, yeah. So is it down to the fact that, like they say in the tagline, deep down we know we're him? Or is it just that we recognise that he's suffering? He doesn't have the manners, the inclinations, he doesn't have those little sort of guards that we've got against offending people or,

you know, making the wrong decision in the moment. We might be working, it could be viewed as manners and good sense or kind of inclination to stop himself. But I think there's also an area for him about boundary setting, which he does very well in some instances and can't do at all in others. For instance, there's a scene where Susie and Jeff's daughter is drowning in the sea. He doesn't run to save her because he's got a brand new Blackberry phone and he's worried, or Blackberry, he's worried about getting it wet. We could also think of him as being without those pesky critical voices, which stop us from doing or saying the things that we think are unsayable.

Afterwards, you're like, oh, if only I'd said this. Quite liberating and freeing, and that is the way you'd be working in the therapy room with someone like Larry. I think in curb fashion, to reflect the show, let's circle back to the beginning here, right? If Larry is having all this therapy, yeah, in this virtual world, why isn't his behavior

improving? And you promised to let us know what you thought he'd be like as a client as well. Yeah, I did. I teased that, didn't I? So Larry does see therapists, like we've said, throughout and he does see a psychiatrist in a later season as well. We see him see Dr. Thurgood in the next season, season eight, episode nine, and he's revealing that he's struggling to hear the jingle from Mr. Softie, the ice cream track, because it triggers a traumatic experience for him that he had when a father of an early girlfriend found him and the girlfriend playing strip poker in his Mr. Softie truck.

Larry was ejected from the truck naked and everyone laughed at him. Going back to your earlier question, I think he could be incredibly tough to be with in the room because TV character Larry David, obviously I'm imagining, has far less insight than his real life counterpart. But even in this small vignette about Mr. Softie, we see him reveal this traumatic incident. But he's much more worried in that moment in the therapy room about putting his outdoor shoes on and off the coffee table. Because you'd noticed that with somebody. You've just told me this quite big incident from childhood, but actually you're focusing on the shoes. Yeah, this minor.

Well, and that would be something to get interested in. He seems worried that the psychiatrist might be cross with him or has he transgressed? And actually the transgression bit might belong to the Mr. Softie experience as opposed to what's happening in the room at the time. And you'd be kind of peeling the layers back on that. Has the psychiatrist in that moment become the irate father in the Mr. Softie vignette? Given that we said he falls out with everyone, is he going to fall out with me or his therapist? So I'll be thinking about aggression, why clients can be conflictual or offensive, especially if it's out of awareness. And it's important for this to play out in the therapy room so we can experience rupture and repair. So he may well fall out with his

therapist and the therapist being around and staying with the client's feelings, not disowning them or ignoring them or meeting them with anger, which is how they might have been met in the past. And that's what rupture and repair is. And that's how we might work with him. So while we're in this area, I did want to just do a quick book recommendation because I think this is lovely actually, The Autistic Survival Guide to Therapy, written by Steph Jones, who writes about how

the book might have saved her loads of different therapists and decades of self analysis, because she's exploring what it means to be neurodiverse and be in therapy and how you might be met or not be met. The Autistic Survival Guide to Therapy. Well, we'll stick that in the notes for the show. Bizarrely with this one, we almost don't want it solved because it's part of the comedy, you know. I was going to say, do you want a kind of more self-reflective, knowing, full of self-awareness Larry Davis? Exactly.

As ever, there were so many things we haven't had time to cover. His hypochondria, the fact that he does display symptoms of OCD. We could have gone into much more depth about his racism, his ableism, many other isms. The list goes on. So please, as ever, let us know your thoughts on this complex character. That's shrinkthebox at sonymusic.com. At the moment, what's happening next week, please? We've had so many emails and it's impossible to fit them into the main episodes. So it is the return of the much loved Shrink the Inbox. I like a Shrink the Inbox. It's wicked because we get to hear from you a lot. We get to talk

about whatever we want to talk about. We can jump between different series, different characters and do whatever the hell we like. We'd be over the moon if you could follow us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music or wherever you get your pod to get new episodes and please tell your mates, your friends, the more people that listen the more we get to make. Do you want to be one of our esteemed shrinkers and get Shrink the Box ad free? You can subscribe to Extra Takes, you also get ad free episodes from Kermode and Mayo's Take and access to their weekly bonus episodes and you can start your free trial now by clicking Try Free at the top of the Shrink the Box show page on Apple podcasts or by visiting extra takes dot com.

That's right. And thank you to our production team. Production management is Lily Hambly, the assistant producer is Scarlett O'Malley, the studio and mix engineer is Josh Gibbs, the senior producer is Selena Ream and executive producer Simon Paul. Right then, just a reminder that there's a list of shows that we're covering on the show notes of this episode so you know what to watch before we spoil it for you. Hmm nice one, alright see you next week. Bye. Ta-da.