Kermode & Mayo’s Take - Laurence Fishburne & James Hawes on The Amateur

Episode Date: April 10, 2025

Vanguardistas have more fun—so if you don’t already subscribe to the podcast, join the Vanguard today via Apple Podcasts or extratakes.com for non-fruit-related devices. In return you’ll get a whole extra Take 2 alongside Take 1 every week, with bonus reviews, more viewing recommendations from the Good Doctors and whole bonus episodes just for you. And if you’re already a Vanguardista, we salute you. We have a real treat for you in the guest slot this week—director of ‘The Amateur’ James Hawes, and one of its stars Laurence Fishburne—AKA actual Morpheus from The Matrix. We are not worthy. Laurence plays Colonel Henderson, the grizzled CIA man tasked with training Rami Malek’s geeky decoder Charlie for the fieldwork he insists on undertaking in order to track down his wife’s terrorist killers. Simon chats to the actor and director about this smart action thriller, and its influences from Hawes’ Brit spy series ‘Slow Horses’ to Jason Bourne. We’ll hear stories from the set plus the pair’s thoughts on the theatre, The Matrix and Adolescence. Don’t miss this one. Mark reviews ‘The Amateur’, as well as ‘Drop’--a psycho-thriller wherein a widowed mother’s (Meghann Fahy) first date interrupted by sinister messages threatening to kill her son—unless she kills her dinner companion. Plus, we’ll get the Good Doctors’ verdict on ‘One to One: John & Yoko’, the latest from documentary maestro Kevin Macdonald charting the revolutionary couple’s post-Beatles days in New York. We’ll also be catching up with the movie-going phenomenon that is ‘A Minecraft Movie’, and deciding whether we’re going to let its legions of fans get away with all those code violations... Another week of Top Takes from Simon & Mark and top correspondence from you. Keep it coming! Timecodes (for Vanguardistas listening ad-free): Drop Review: 08:15 A Minecraft Movie Review: 19:53 Laurence Fishburne & James Hawes Interview: 29:48 The Amateur Review: 44:55 Laughter Lift: 52:43 One to One: John & Yoko Review: 55:24 You can contact the show by emailing [e-mail] or you can find us on social media, @KermodeandMayo Please take our survey and help shape the future of our show: www.kermodeandmayo.com/survey EXCLUSIVE NordVPN Deal ➼ https://nordvpn.com/take Try it risk-free now with a 30-day money-back guarantee! A Sony Music Entertainment production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts and follow us @sonypodcasts To advertise on this show contact: [e-mail] And to find out more about Sony’s new show Origins with Cush Jumbo, click here Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey Mark, I can't believe they've remade Snow White. What a classic, the Dark Forest sequence. Scarier than anything in the exorcist. Scard me for life. Not as scary as the Dark Web, however, but luckily you can stay safe from all the spooky stuff lurking there with NordVPN. It will protect you online with encryption and alerts to guard against hackers. No more poison apples then, or dodgy fishing pages.

Will it make me the fairest of them all? Well it can let you switch your virtual location in a hundred and eleven different countries so you can watch movies from all over the world. That's close enough. Oh hey I can even download the NordVPN app for an extra layer of protection on my phone. That'll be handy for online banking. That's right. Unwrap a huge discount on NordVPN by heading to NordVPN.com slash take. Plus, with our link, you'll get an extra four months free on the two-year plan and it's risk-free with Nord's 30-day money back guarantee. Check the link in the description. Hello, Simon Mayo here.

And Mark Cobert here. Before we begin, a quick reminder that you can become a Vanguard Easter and get an extra episode every Thursday. Including bonus reviews. Extra viewing suggestions. Viewing recommendations at home and in cinemas. Plus your film and non-film questions answered as best we can in Questions Shmestians. You can get all that extra stuff via Apple podcasts or head to extra takes.com for non-fruit related devices.

There's never been a better time to become a Vanguard Easter. Free offer now available wherever you get your podcasts. And if you're already a Vanguard Easter, we salute you. You know that bit, hello by the way, you know that bit in Private Eye, I don't know, does Private Eye, which you always read in the bath as I remember with the beer, do they still do that, you know, a cab, a cabbie writes? A cabbie writes, that is still an ongoing thing. So yesterday, I took a black cab and it turned out that the guy who picked me up had picked me up about 30 years ago and remembered it. By the end of the trip, I bought his memoir. This guy's called Peter Shand and he wrote a book which he sells at the back of his cab called

Hijacked Your Joking. So he told me this story and I just thought you'd, so he is, so this is a classic kind of privatized sort of thing. So it's 1968. Right. And he's a black cabbie in London and he picks up a long haired geezer who is outside Caesar's palace nightclub in Luton. Right. And he tells him that he's the music arranger for Lulu. And would he like two tickets to go and see Lulu? So he says, Oh, thanks very much. 1968. So he then, so he drives, so he gives this guy two tickets to go and see Lulu. And then he drives him to his home and he says, what are your future plans then this Kebby? To which the musical arranger for Lulu says, I'm off to America because I'm

going to be in a band and he says oh what's the name of the band and he says Led Zeppelin so this guy picked up was Johnny was Johnny Baldwin as was and then John Paul Jones I had that John Paul Jones in the back of my cab once how about that anyway that's pretty good. He also told me how he got Dusty Springfield to sing for him in the back of the cab. Hang on, is this memoir, is it published? No, he sells it at the back of his cab. It's a tenor.

It's full of stories about people that he's picked up. Anyway, very entertaining it was. Before we go any further, I want to dedicate this whole show to my nephew, Nick, who's always listened to this show in various iterations. This weekend, he's getting married. Congratulations. To the very lovely Sarah. So to Nick and Sarah, congratulations.

Mark and I and all the people who listen to this podcast will be turning up at the church and then at the reception afterwards. So if you could just add a few, including, and I'm looking at iwitter.com, including all our listeners in Iceland, South America and the Middle East. They're all coming over. So if you could just add a few, that would be very nice. We're wishing you all the best. Where is this wedding happening? I mean, not a specific address, but vaguely. Vaguely, sorry. Church atop the hill. And it's going to be great, but I'm just thinking it

would be a love. Yeah. Anyway, so Mark is going to be there in spirit and I will be there in a suit. You'll be there in a suit. Yeah. Anyway, because that's what this show exists for. So later on, by the way, in this podcast, Mark- Sometimes I think that my only role in this program is to laugh at your jokes. That's literally it. Every time they do the little freeze frame thing on YouTube, our picture is always you

talking and me laughing. That's it. Apart from all the reviews of the films in which I don't feature at all, because quite reasonably it's just you talking. I have to claw back a bit of the program. Anyway, yes. So... Later, Mark, when the camera reluctantly pans to Mark, what will you be reviewing?

Well, we have a very mixed bag. We have a drop, which is a sort of a psycho chiller. Keskase. We have one to one, which is a new, pardon me, Keskase, very good. We have one to one, which is a new film about John and Yoko. And we have the amateur with our very special guests. Lawrence Fishburne. It's actually him. And James Hawes, he's the director of that movie. Bonus features in take two. We'll have the best of the weekend viewing in our watchlist not list TV movie of the week weekend. And a one frame back on Oscar winning actors turned action stars. It's quite a niche category, but it's quite entertaining.

In our bonus section for the elite, for the Vanguard, what are you going to be doing there? We also have reviews of The Return starring Rafe, don't call me Ralph, Fiennes, and Black Mirror Series 7, which if you're listening on Thursday drops today. And I should also add that in Take 1, in the rundown of our top 10, we shall be doing the Minecraft movie, which is a Minecraft movie. Sorry, I sang corrected. We didn't review last week because they didn't do a national press show. They did Sunday morning screenings for kids, but I live in Cornwall. That's atop the chart. We'll be taking a look at that. We have an extra special request. It's your chance to tell us what you think of the show. Well, that's atop the chart, so we'll be taking a look at that.

We have an extra special request. It's your chance to tell us what you think of the show. Whatever you have to say, we're keen to listen to help us shape the future of the show. Imagine us nodding sagely, debating your excellent points over a lukewarm cup of tea. You can find the link to the survey in the podcast description this week and for the next month on with the show. I've done this survey. I was clicking it and when it says, tell us what you don't like about the show.

The first item that it says is I don't like Simon Mayo. And when I was thinking, okay, at this point, I'm not going to go any further because what is the point? Cause if you click that in which you are perfectly entitled to click, there's no point because hang on, let me just ask. Okay. look, it's one thing giving us feedback on the show. If you don't like Simon Mowden, I'm sure the next question is, I don't like Mark Kermode. That's about tenth number down. That's the tenth thing down. I don't believe that.

It is true. Why are you listening to a show called Kermode and Mayo? Exactly. An email here to correspondents at KermodeandMayo.com. I mean, take the survey, you know. Or not. Or not, as the case may be. And if you don't, that's fine with Mark and me. Regarding the discussion from two weeks ago, this is from RA, just signed capital R, capital

A in Maryland, USA. Regarding the discussion from two weeks ago about jam and jelly in the US, here's what's what. Jam is jam. Jelly is jam with seeds removed. Furthermore, purists will also emit skins from the cook to keep the results clear. What is known as jelly in the UK in the US is Jell-O, and yes, Jell-O is a brand. Jell-O has become the generic word for solidified non-savory liquid with gelatin. Mmm, that's nice Max. Yes, Professor H Higgins was right. In America, we haven't used English for years. And also marmalade, which is of course, immensely superior to all of

all of the products comes from the Portuguese word for quince jam. Um, so Marmalade is one of those words which we use, which comes from Portuguese and Marmalade in Portuguese still only means quince jam. Okay. And they call jam Jaleia. What does Lady Marmalade mean? Well, I don't know. Actually, that's very good.

That's a very good point, but, um, let's hear it for Marmalade. Anyway, I think Marmalade mean? Well, I don't know, actually. That's very good. That's a very good point. But let's hear it for Marmalade. Anyway, I think Marmalade is basically citrus. If it's jammed with citrus, it's Marmalade. Is Lady Marmalade Marmalade for ladies? And of course, there were the Scottish band Marmalade who had hits, including Obladi Oblada, about which there is a joke later on in this particular podcast. Well, one of the podcasts is coming up.

It's almost as if we planned all of this. Okay. So tell us something that's, we're going to do the box office top 10 very shortly, but tell us something that's out. Asim Omola. Yeah. So Drop, which is a sort of psychological chiller from Blumhouse and Platinum Gym. So Jason Blum, Michael Bay, directed

by Christopher Landon, who made Happy Death Day and Happy Death Day 2U. I think he was one point signed to do Scream 7, but then didn't. Anyway, so written by Chris Roach, Gilliam Jacobs, stars Megan Fahey, who is it Fahey? F-A-H-Y. I should know this, but I can't anyway. Let's say it's Fahey. Fine. She was in one of the White Lotus series. I think she was in two. So she plays Violet. We first meet Violet being terrorized at gunpoint by a crazed man, then cuts to her working as a therapist dealing with people who've suffered domestic abuse. At home, she lives with her son

following the death of her husband. She is preparing to go out on a date. This is the first time she's been on a date since she was widowed. Her sister, Jen, played by Violet Bean, has agreed to babysit, but she's going to keep the phone with her so she's in constant touch because she hasn't been away from her son. So she goes to this swanky Skyline restaurant where her date is late. He sends a text saying, I'm on my way. I'm sorry, I'm running late. Then another man mistakes her for his blind date. So she's waiting at the bar, but she's constantly on her phone. Then she starts getting these messages. Anyway, then her date turns up.

Hunky Henry played by Brandon Skimlund. He's a photographer. He's got like an open. She's all dressed up. He turns up in an open shirt with a vest, but he's very handsome, but clearly suspicious because he's been a bit late and these messages have started to arrive. And they sit at the table and she keeps looking at her phone and he says, what's going on? She said, well, I've got to stay in touch with my son, but I keep getting these messages. He says, oh, they're drops. The title of the film, the drops. Messages sent directly to your phone

from somebody within a 50-foot radius. He said, just be somebody playing with you. Just be people messing around. I get these on the train all the time. At first, they just seem to be pestering, but then they turn threatening. Here's some of the trailer. Now, I warn you, if you're listening to this, which you will be doing because it's a podcast, this is mainly one line of bits of dialogue and some noise but hey, here we go Somebody keeps sending me these they gotta be within 50 feet to send a job It's someone the restaurant Everything okay, I'll be right back

My son is being helped So, I don't know whether you managed to glean this from that. So essentially she's getting the thing. What they're saying is we've sent someone to your house, look at your, check your security cameras. If you don't do exactly what we tell you, your son will die. But you can't tell anyone and whoever is on the phone appears to be able to see and indeed hear everything that she says and does. She's then told that she has to do things that she absolutely can't do. It's basically a modern twist on an old premise, the old premise of someone being forced to do something criminal in order to protect a loved one in real time.

If you think back to that film with Johnny Depp, Nick of Time, in which he must kill a politician in 90 minutes to save his daughter. And some reviews have called this Hitchcockian, although to be honest with you, it's more Brian DePalmerian. I mean, it's closer to something like Snake Eyes, in that there's a lot of substance, a lot of style, but not a whole bunch of substance. In the past, these instructions would have come from notes or phone calls, but now they

come from drops, things that just appear on your phone that are just sent directly to your phone. The way in which they zhuzh this up is that the drops appear on screen as part of the sort of scenery. Because she's getting so many messages rather than just being text-read, they're put up on screen in quite inventive ways. There's one bit where she has to go off to the bathroom cubicle and the bathroom cubicle sort of transforms itself into a mosaic of the security cameras of her house.

It's very stylishly done. It's foolish, but it's done with style. The weird thing about it is that one of the most anxiety inducing things about it isn't the thing about the threat that they're going to just kill her loved ones. It's the embarrassment of being at a table with somebody, being told that you have to keep smiling and carry on with the date, but she has to keep going. She's like, excuse me, would you mind if I just go to the loop? Would you mind if I... At one point, I was in a critic screening and a critic friend of mine who was sitting two seats away from me, who shall remain nameless,

leaned over and said, I just let them kill the family. I just can't stand the embarrassment anymore. There was that thing about the worst thing that was going on was the having to keep up the appearance of, isn't this a nice meal? For the most part, it plays out in the restaurant. The restaurant is all full of glass and it's very, very high up, so there's lots of scope for quite inventive visuals.

It gets into the last act, it throws all that out in the window and indeed through the window and just goes crazy good enough to chase you bang bang. But for the most part, it's sort of flimsy, forgettable fun. She's really good, she holds it all together. If her performance wasn't as good as it was, you'd lose patience with it a lot quicker. Effectively, atmospheric music by Bear McCreary cranks everything up. It does exactly what it says in the pack and it does it with a certain amount of style. I don't think I'm going to remember it for very long, but whilst it was there, it was kind of fun, if utterly preposterous and silly.

Did you say that fellow critic was two seats away? That just strikes me as a little bit close for your comfort. No, because there's me and then there's my bag on the seat next to it so that no one can actually sit next to me. And then he was there. I still think that. But it was close enough that he could lean over and go, I can't stand the embarrassment of the table. But in future, if he could just move one more away.

Yes. Well, it's fine. I like him. So before we get to the chart, I just need to mention last swim because that's not in the chart. Oh yes. Fine. Okay. We'll come to number 10 in just a moment.

That's my mistake. Marcus Milburn in Henley. Yes. Dear Didgeridoo and Donkey Rhubarb, long-term listener, multiple time emergency mailer, I know Mark's knowledge and understanding of movie music is second to none, but I must pick up on a mistakenly appropriated track mentioned in his review of Last Swim from last week's Extra Take. The music in the clip was not from the composer Federico Albanese, although he did work on

the film. The piece we can hear in track number three is is track number three from the album, Selected Ambient Works Volume Two by the incomparable electronic artist, Afex Twin. Fine. My mistake. Track has the unofficial name, Rhubarb, and its haunting melody has graced a wide range of media, most notably video clips online. Just wanted to make sure that you were fully informed.

No, no, that's absolutely right. And thank you for the correction. It's one of these kind of really problematic things that happens quite a lot is that the clips or often the trailers that you're given don't contain the original thing. But that is entirely my mistake. That was absolutely my mistake. Thank you for correcting me because Afex Twain. Yeah, okay.

Thank you. I stand corrected. Yes. And he says, pleased to give Afex Twain a listen if you haven't already used to play them on Scala now. Yeah, classic. Very good. So anyway, brief thoughts on Mickey 17 at 10. pleased to give Afex Twin a listen if you haven't already used to play them on Scarlett now, Major Classical. Yeah, yeah, yeah, fact. But very good.

So anyway, brief thoughts on Mickey 17 at 10. Liked it very much, moving swiftly on. Nine is Mr Burton. Well, I liked it. I mean, I thought it was, I liked the director very much, which is Mark Evans. We had Toby Jones on the show talking about it. If you haven't listened to that interview yet, do go back and listen to it on the pod because he was, as always, he was terrific.

It's a story that I didn't know about. This is about how Richard Burton became Richard Burton, both in name and indeed in character and performance on screen. What was really interesting was that Toby Jones was saying that for him, the most fascinating elements were the elements in which there was a slight conflict between his character, who is the character who mentors the character who mentors The Richard who then becomes Richard Burton and I think that's the kind of heart of the film Anyway, the email Alan not pronounced Alan because it's got a U in it Okay, dear nice voice and also pleasant

Oh, yeah long-term listener and longer term than I want to remember after your interview with the great Toby Jones about the recent Richard Burton film where the line explaining his lack of a Valleys accent has been cut from the film because he was saying, if you had the interview, he was slightly nervous of the fact it explained why his accent is the way it is. You asked whether the accent of Harry Lorty was accurate, who plays Richard Burton, was accurate to the local area. Whilst not claiming to be Michael Sheen and definitely sidestepping the whole no such thing as a Welsh accent debate, I was raised about two miles down the valley from Pontrydivyn in Carmarthen, so even closer than Mr Sheen and can say that I think the accent is pretty spot on. As a child, the visits of Richard Burton and Elizabeth Taylor to see family were

major events in the village. I can't remember ever seeing anyone turn up in a Rolls Royce. Maybe Michael Sheen should give it a try. I've had to emigrate to the next valley over and now live in my Steg and the lone dot on iwitter.com is me. Keep up the good work and down with all the usual suspects from Alan. Uh, there'll be more on remote iwitterers in take two. So if you're looking at iwitter.com,, there's one in my stake and that is Alan. Thank you very much.

So number eight is Novacaine. Which as I said at the time, reminded me very much of Kick-Ass, but was nothing like as much fun as Kick-Ass. And I mean, it appears to have run its course. I think it's found all the audience that it has. It's in its second week and it's on the way out. Seven is Bridget Jones, about about the boy. Eighth week, still hanging on in there and still worth remembering that the Americans

didn't think it was worth releasing in cinemas. Although it is possible that they might not have understood some of the jokes. Number six is Flow. Which both you and I really loved. Alan Jones was staying with me just the other week because he's got his book Disco Mania and we were doing it on stage at New Lynn. He loved it too. It is funny that the two of us who absolutely love really, really gory horror films, he runs Fright Fest and all the rest of it, both thought that this silent tale of a cat finding its way in a flooded world was one of the most charming movies of recent years.

Number five is Black Bag. Which is fine. It's good. It's like a sort of chamber piece, but with an international spy riff to it. And it's slick and it's got nice performances. Number four is A Working Man. Jason Statham is a working man, but he used to be in the wrong room. And the problem with this is that what it doesn't have is the kind of humor that I really

want from a Jason Statham film. It does exactly what it says on the packet. You know, they've stolen his friend's daughter. He has to go and get her back by killing everyone. And that's what he does. But Jason Statham movies are at their best when they're slick and funny and, you know, and a little bit self-aware. And I don't think this is. This felt a bit po-faced, but it's okay. Number three is Death of a Unicorn. I hate it. I absolutely hated it. I thought it was rubbish.

I thought it was badly made. It was badly written, badly played, ugly to look at. And this is its first week. So when you consider that there were posters everywhere, that's a very, very soft opening. And I don't think it's going to be troubling the charts for much longer. Disney's Snow White is at number two. You'll see previous shows for the last three weeks for all manner of opinion from us and everyone who listens. Yeah, and there'll be more on that a little bit later on. And number one is a Minecraft movie.

Yeah, so here we go. We didn't review this last week because there was no national press show. Just to explain, the way national press shows work is that they show everything that opens on Friday, on a Monday or a Tuesday. In this particular case, they didn't. What they did do is a screening on Sunday morning, which these are called fun in the foyer screenings. They tend to be family screenings. I'm not sure why there wasn't a national press show.

Anyway, so this is a big screen adaptation of the long running video game in which players essentially build worlds. And if you're my age and you have kids who play video games, this is one of the most popular games of Eves and a relief to many parents, because it's about building things. It's about creating worlds. And you have to dig stuff out in order to be able to get the tools.

It's not about first person shooter stuff. So there were plans for film adaptation way, way back, 10 years ago, now finally made as a film. The plot, four misfits, this is the official plot, four misfits are pulled through a portal into a cubic world that thrives on imagination, having no choice but to master the world while embarking on a quest with expert crafter named Steve. Steve, played by Jack Black, also Jason Momoa. Here's a clip of the trailer.

I am Steve. As a child, I yearned for the mines, but something always got in the way. But the call of the minds was too strong. So one day, I started digging and digging until I found this. A wonderland where anything you can imagine is possible. As long as what you imagine can be built out of blocks. So, the first thing to say is that this has broken a number of records, which are record opening for a movie based on a video game, so outstripped Super Mario Brothers movie, which was remarkable. Record opening for a Warner Brothers legendary co-production, so it opened ahead of The Dark

Knight Rises, although there's inflation and all that stuff. Largest Friday Saturday Sunday opening since Deadpool and Wolverine. Jack Black's biggest domestic opening, more than Super Mario Brothers, Warner Brothers' biggest Saturday of all time, Warner Brothers' biggest Sunday of all time, and the only film in box office history to open to over 50 million and see no drop on Saturday, meaning on its second day it rose by 4%.

So it kind of doesn't matter what you think of it, does it really? And this is the poise, when I said, you know, I'm not quite sure why they didn't have a national press show. That's the reason. I mean, they had, as I said, they were showing it on Sunday. It wasn't like they were trying to hide it from anybody, but they were showing it basically on a Sunday because that's when you'll get the audience that, you know, that like it. So a friend of mine has a young son who went along to see it.

Their feeling was pretty much the same as mine. I saw it on Monday in the cinema. It is what it is. I mean, the thing with Minecraft, have you ever seen Minecraft, the game, Simon? I've seen Child 3 play Minecraft. Okay. And when Child 3 was playing Minecraft, what was the main thing that you thought about what was happening at the time? Well, exactly. The kind of straightforward, simplistic message which you've already mentioned, which is they're

building something, very rough and ready graphics, nothing fancy, nothing expensive. What? Didn't look expensive, but it seemed to be an entirely positive thing that they were doing. Exactly. And what they were doing was world building. In the case of this, what happens is that Jack Black's character goes into that world and then Jason Momoa's character, who was a video gamer and is now washed up, goes in with some other people and then they have to do stuff in the world of Minecraft.

Essentially, it's a Jack Black movie that happens to be playing out in the world of Minecraft. Now it's interesting enough, my friend who went with his son came out of it and said, oh yeah, I've just been to see this. Then his son immediately insisted that this text be sent, which was Pig with Crown is a reference to Minecraft YouTuber Technoblade. Calling Iron Golem Big Guy is most likely a reference to camera 18. And just multiple Minecraft YouTubers with cameos pointing out mistakes like day and night cyclists, 20 minutes not... Anyway, a whole bunch. So basically he'd been sitting there

watching the movie, enjoying it, but also doing the thing that people who were obsessed with Minecraft who go, that's that, that's that, that's that, that's that. Now, I didn't do any of that because I really enjoyed watching my son play Minecraft because it was creative. What I saw when I watched the movie was none of that kind of magic. I mean, they put the Minecraft design and it's the Minecraft characters. It's not terrible. Jack Black's fine. Jack Black pretty much does Jack Black,

and Jack Black and Jason Momoa together, they're okay. So it's perfectly unremarkable. The reason that it's done as well as it has is because the Minecraft IP is so massive, and the recognition is so massive, and the film doesn't tread all over. And the irony of it is that the whole point about Minecraft is it's a world in which you build things, in which your imagination really does, and watching the film is not the whole point about Minecraft is it's a world in which you build things

and which your imagination really does. Watching the film is not the same thing. It's just a film that happens to be taking place within the scenery of that game. You can either say, well, this is a defiling of what Minecraft is, or, well, it clearly is full of Easter eggs for people that know the detail of minecraft. I thought, all right, it is what it is. Didn't, you know, it is what it is.

I can barely, I saw it on Monday, it's Wednesday, I can barely remember it, but it is what it is. And the thing that it is, it will be a movie that keeps cinemas going for a lot longer. Precisely. Precisely. One thing that I should point out, Legendary's chairman of worldwide production, Mary Parent, explained how the movie earned the A in its title, saying, we're calling it a Minecraft movie because we're respecting the fact that there's no

one story that drives the game. Neil Thurston, age 43 and a half, dear Stephen Dennis, the film was by any artistic measure an absolute hot mess. The hilarious Basil exposition section at the start, the nonsensical plot, random songs about cooked chicken. But what I wanted to tell you about was the effect the film had on the patrons of the Leeds multiplex with whom I shared my Saturday afternoon. A full house, always a fine thing, consisting entirely of target audience and their parents, me falling into this camp, who on no less than 10 occasions broke into spontaneous applause. No American style whooping or cheering, thank you very much, just polite applause.

I've read some stuff online where people are getting angry at the applause and cheering, but who has gone to see this movie expecting to be surrounded by a calm, contemplative audience? This is not a film for critics and connoisseurs of film. It's a film for fans of Minecraft. So let them enjoy it. Probably one of the worst films I've ever seen, but one of the best cinema experiences in ages.

Well, what a lovely thing to be able to say. And as you said, the positive thing is it's filling cinemas out. And yes, I mean, Alan was talking to me about this thing about people cheering just for recognizing characters appearing. But hey, okay, fine. The movie exists because Minecraft is a hugely recognizable IP. Will, who's 24, in Norwich, Dear Chicken Chocky and I am Steve, I want to try to balance the argument about the behavior of Minecraft cinema goers to some degree from a younger person's perspective.

I saw the Minecraft movie last night with one of my friends. For some context, we are both 24 and for both of us, the game has been a large part of our childhoods and have been surrounded by its impact in the gaming world since its launch. I'm sure you have seen and heard about showings of people throwing popcorn at the screen, being thrown out of the theatre and screaming out some of the memeable lines such as Chicken Jockey and Flint and Steel. It isn't really fair on the cinema staff who are having to deal with all of this and clean up after each showing when it becomes a war zone. I feel for patrons

who actually want to watch the movie with a code compliant audience. I don't think that's going to happen anytime soon. What I disagree with is some people getting annoyed with the fans who are hyped up for the movie and people cheering during it. I haven't seen people get this amped up for a film since Avengers Endgame or even Spider-Man No Way Home. And for me, this hype added to the experience. As we all say on this show, your movie going experience can often be impacted by the people you see it with and what you bring to it. This was definitely true for a Minecraft movie. We saw this with a packed audience on Saturday as the credits rolled, the room filled with loud applause and cheers, which still were respectful. I think for many people, this will be a cinema experience

they never forget. It's bad corporate slot, but boy is it fun. So anyway, I think that's very good. It's a fair point about the popcorn chucking and not fair on the staff to have to go and pick it up. Is there popcorn chucking? Yeah, no, that's absolutely not happening. But if a cinema is full and everyone is cheering and applauding and thinking, I'll come back, then that's a big thumbs up. I would have thought. Exactly.

Correspondence at Kermit and Mayor.com in a moment. You're dealing with what? I would have thought. The next thing we're going to be dealing with is the amateur with our very special guests. Ah, it's director James Halls and its star Lawrence Fishburne after this. What's up, Mark?

All's well, how about you? Well, I've been thinking about that cushion that we gave away at our live show. Yeah. That and the pencil case. Imagine if we had a load more that we needed to shift. Imagine the riches. Every bottom or pencil case in the country would be graced in some way by our presence. Well, when you put it like that, we should have used Shopify.

Shopify is the commerce platform revolutionizing millions of businesses worldwide from people selling compasses to comfy cushions. And it covers all your sales channels from a shop front ready POS system to its all-in-one e-commerce platform. It gets you selling across social media marketplaces. Oh, and it's full of the industry-leading tools ready to ignite your growth. Shopify gives you complete control over your business and your brand without learning new skills in design or coding. And thanks to award-winning help, Shopify is ready to support your success every step

of the way. Sign up for a £1 per month trial period at shopify.co.uk slash curmode. So Lawrence Fishburne and James Hawes are our guests on the show today. If you haven't heard of Lawrence Fishburne, I think you've heard of Lawrence Fishburne. Interestingly, and I didn't know that he was a fellow to Chuckle's Branagh's Iago on that film 30 years ago. Anyway, that's 30 years ago this year. Wow. James Horse is somebody you might not have heard of.

We haven't had him on the show before, but you'll have seen his work because Slow Horses, that was him. The adaptation that he masterminded, that was James Horse. So he knows what he's doing in this kind of area. They worked together on this new action film, The Amateur, starring Rami Malek and Mr Fishburne. You're going to hear them in just a moment. I would just say at the end of the interview, I imagine this bit has been included, it's a standard way of finishing off, you know, what are you doing next? And often you get, oh, I'm having a holiday or I don't know. James Halls gives the best answer I've heard ever to

that particular question. Anyway, you'll hear the conversation after this clip. We're the John Doe's that get found in the dumpster if we get found. Which you won't. I'm sorry. Well those were good lessons. You're a good teacher, Hendo. I took that into account. And that is a clip from The Amateur. I'm delighted to say I've been joined by its director, James Horst, and one of its stars, Laurence Fishburne.

Gentlemen, how are you? Very good. How are you? Very well. Nice to be here. Doing very well. Thank you. James, introduce us to The Amateur.

Who is The Amateur? The Amateur is a character-driven spy thriller. It's the unexpected hero, the underestimated hero played by Rami Malek. Okay. Why is he an unexpected hero? We've seen these films where somebody has a wrong done to them and they go off on the mission. And just before they really start the mission, somebody gives them training. And suddenly they become an expert sniper, brilliant with close combat skills, they can suddenly drive cars like a Formula One champion. This is not that film. This

is the film where the guy stays the geek, but a very particular geek. They go for training with a guy who might look very much like the person sitting to my right here, but it doesn't go well. They don't turn into a ninja And I think that's part of the charm and what makes this film distinctive is that he remains the underdog. And that's why you follow him and that's why you root for him and that's why he's accessible. So Lawrence, this seems to be a perfect moment for you to introduce your character, Henderson. Colonel Henderson, who I play in the film, is the field operative who has been given the task of training Rami Malek's character, Charlie Heller, who's an analyst, who, you know, just doesn't seem like a likely candidate for field work, really. A bit of a weed.

Yeah, that's a good one for it. Weed, yeah. Dweeb. Dweeb. Dweeb. Dweeb, yeah. And so I go in with very, very low expectations of him. I'm doing my best to build up his confidence. But as far as I'm concerned, my character is concerned, he's got a life expectancy of like a mosquito. And why are you picked? Why are you the one who has to train him? Oh, you know, no good deed goes unpunished, I suppose. Okay, so more to be unveiled in the story. James, I am a little bit obsessed with etymology

and the amateur from the French means lover, someone who loves, that's what it means. And that's really Rami Malek, I mean, at the very start of the film, that's what you're setting up. He's very happily married, he loses his wife at the start of the film, that's what you're setting up. He's very happily married. He loses his wife at the start of the film, and he's driven by grief and driven by the love that he had for his wife.

And I love that about the character and the premise of the film that we take from the original novel. That you get this, the inside, the classic inciting incident, but you get this moment, very few moments at the beginning of the film to establish that relationship, that love, this sort of an eccentric partnership, but I think there's enough there with Rachel Brosnan's character to bank it, to understand that these are two slightly other individuals, two very intelligent people.

They have a symbiotic relationship and it's hugely successful. And by banking that at the beginning of the film, you understand how much is lost when she is taken away from him. And you're absolutely right. It is then that passion that drives him. I like his journey, the fact that he starts by expecting that his bosses of this all-powerful organisation will have the knowledge and the desire to deliver the justice that he wants,

to have that wrong to his lover put right. And then it's about his disappointment and their obvious complicity to some extent that fires his need for vengeance and justice. The novel, 1981, you mentioned by Robert De Hale, it has been filmed before, but is that sort of irrelevant that you use that, the fact that this is a cryptologist

who's lost his wife, start again? That is. The premise in the book and what it says on the box, the amateur, that's what we took. And we took many of Robert's original thoughts and characters and inspirations right down to details like the guinea fowl outside Inquiline's house. Those are still there. There's a detail I want to mention as well for film geeks. Marta Keller, French actress, Swiss French actress, played the Inquiline character in the first making of the movie. She plays the flower seller in a cameo in this film. You must have done something really bad. Yes, she's great. That's Marta Keller from the first version of the film.

It's not a remake. We've gone back to source. I think it would be disrespectful to the previous filmmakers as well to think of it as a remake. I think we've taken a brilliant original conceit and made it a film for 2025. And the action sequences, Lawrence, a lot of chasing, a lot of hand-to-hand combat. Can you tell us anything about what that was like? You're no stranger to this. You've done it many times.

No. And they were terrific chasing sequences. No, it was fun. I mean, it's always fun. It didn't hurt as much 30 years ago, but it was a little bit more painful this time around. But they had a crack team of guys, Parisian guys, stunt guys who were awesome. And they were very protective of me as the old man. They wanted to make sure I didn't hurt myself too bad.

Can I interrupt here? Sure. Because those chase sequences really upset Rami because this man kept catching up. We kept having to start him further and further back. And Rami was coming up to me saying, damn, that guy's fast. So you're faster than Rami Malek. That's amazing. I'm faster than Rami Malek when I've been tasked to catch him.

So there's a lot about the film that is familiar. It's a kind of anyone who's seen a 70s paranoid CIA thriller, we're in that similar territory. So we build an escape from that. But that is very familiar. And it's very nice. It's kind of refreshing because as James said at the beginning of this, in the last 20 years, these films have become kind of formulaic. You know kind of what to expect from your hero.

Even a Jason Bourne who doesn't really know who he is, he still has this skill set that's what he's leading with. But this guy, he's really more of a wild card simply because we don't think he knows what he's doing. We wanted to build on the heritage of those films you talk about and that it's there even in the visuals and then bring it forward out of the cold war which may have been a bit premature and into a world where the technology can be part of the skill set. Speaking of the real world, was there any part of you, either of you, when the Signal Gate story

was unfolding that made you think just stop, stop, stop, stop. Our whole film is built around a cryptologist and the very, very clever cryptology which goes into CIA's work. And now people will have heard all the stories about the head of the CIA on signal discussing the plans to bomb the hooties. Were you thinking, no more, please. Don't intrude, this is gonna spoil my story.

I wasn't, I wasn't daring to. I mean, I'm taking comfort in the fact that this film was completed before November the 6th and is not political to that extent. What I would say is the genre is having a rebirth. I mean, since Slow Horses, look what's happening across television and the number of spy series that are out there. The agency and some other things, right? But also I think it's something about the espionage genre is where we go when the world is fractured and distorted This is a very good example of an individual in a world that seems familiar that gets suddenly inverted

That's part of the recipe whether it's three days of a condor or enemy of the state or the amateur I'm choosing to try and put us in such Vaulted company, but they suddenly find that the world they thought they knew and trusted is against them. That things lurk around familiar corners, that things can come out of the shadows. And I think that's, it's a genre that's going to be playing strong in the few years ahead. I just wonder if contemporary audiences or us will watch this and think, particularly abroad, away from America, we don't know which side the CIA is on anymore. Well, if that's the way people are receiving it, I don't think that's a bad thing.

I take that answer. Very interesting. There is something of slow horses, I think, in this, James, in as much as when you're responsible for the whole of the first season. When we're in Paris and when we're in Marseille and when we're in Istanbul, we don't really know with it. I mean, in the same way that I do know where you shot, where in London you shot Slow Horses, but it's not a tourist film. And I don't think people will see familiarity. They won't be familiar with the Marseille that you film,

the Istanbul that you film. It's not a tourist film. That was very deliberate. And it was even something I pitched to the studio quite early on. If I take the Slow Horses link link I scared Apple initially by saying that's what I'm going to do. I'm going to give you a side of London that I live in and that will have texture and is the sort of London that spies would inhabit in my

version of this and I wanted to do the same. You don't see the Blue Mosque, you don't see the Eiffel Tower and you do see the places that people go and I imagine spies would hide rather than the obvious. I think it still feels exotic. I think it still has scale. We certainly look for that in the texture and things like the chase sequence through Marseille. It feels elsewhere. It's a foreign land to Charlie, but it's not signalled and set up as a familiar postcard. I need to ask you, Lawrence, just while you're on our podcast, I mean, you are so busy.

I think you had four films last year. Now you're in The Amateur. You're counting them. I think it was four. Do we get to see your one-man show in the UK? That's something I very much want to do, but it's a matter of scheduling and finding a theatre that has the right amount, like a slot for me,

really. So I'll be investigating that while I'm here doing the fifth season of The Witcher. Just trying to find a theatre to do my one man show, yeah. Lawrence likes being here. I do, I love being here actually. Sean Penn said on the show a few years ago that he can always tell if he's working

with a theatre trained actor. Do you think that's true, James? Yeah, utterly. I mean, I approach every actor, just don't tell Lawrence I said this, but I approach every actor differently. I've learned never to think that one set of notes for one actor will work across the board of the ensemble. So people have different gears, different instincts, they need different kinds of notes. But there is something about the training

and the groundwork that comes from a theatre actor that is very special. Would you agree with that, Lawrence, that you can always tell if you're with a theatre-trained actor? Yeah, I think it's pretty self-evident. I mean, it's not something that you can pretend. You can't fake it, you know. Lincoln Square Academy, is that where you trained? No, I trained on the boards just working in the theatre. I started in the theatre, and I've always worked in the theatre,

I've always gone back. I think the longest break I had was 15 years between Thurgood and American Buffalo in 2022. But it's just, you can't fake it. It's like, yeah. James, we have in common that we were both at Warwick University, not at the same time. Were you a member of Warwick University Film Society?

No, I wasn't. Ah, so I've got one over on you. Yeah. I was a member of the Drama Society and I went to Warwick University. It? No, I wasn't. So I've got one over on you. Was a member of the Drama Society. And I went to Warwick University. It was a deal with my dad who thought this whole industry was the circus. I mean, I might as well have gone away.

In fact, I had a letter from him saying, you're on your own if you go to this industry. That's, you know, stay in there. So I read law because I was going to do a sensible thing and be a lawyer. And I chose Warwick because it had more theaters on the campus than anywhere outside the Barbican. Wow.

And so if you talk to any of my peers, they'll say that I pretty much did theater and occasionally turned up for a tutorial. Final point I would just want to mention is the TV show Adolescence, which is the most talked about TV show in this country, and I believe in America as well. Yes, it is.

There is a moment in episode two where they talk about The Matrix. And it just occurred to me, Ashley Walters' character's son was talking about Red Pill and Blue Pill, and he's horrified that his son has seen The Matrix because he's too young. I was just thinking, in terms of a legacy of a film from decades ago, it's in the most talked about TV show

of 2025. Of course it is. What do we see in next, Lawrence? ago, it's in the most talked about TV show of 2025. Of course it is. Look at this legend. What do we see you in next, Lawrence? Next, I have an animated film that's coming out a week after The Amateur comes out called Sneaks with Anthony Mackie and Martin Lawrence and DJ Mustard and Macy Gray and a lot of wonderful people. James, too soon to ask you what you're doing next?

No. I wrapped a shoot on Sunday morning at 2 a.m. in L.A. Oh, wow. I only just got here in time. And that is Lantons. It's written by Chris Mundy, who wrote True Detective and Ozarks, stars Kyle Chandler, Aaron Pierre and Kelly MacDonald and is a take on the DC Green Lantern, but played like a buddy cop movie in a rooted contemporary world.

Wicked. We shall await that. Maybe your dad was right. It is a circus, but it's an enjoyable circus in your during months. James Lawrence, thank you very much. You're an enjoyable circus in your ringmaster. James Lawrence, thank you very much. You're welcome. Thank you. DJ Mustard. I think I need to change my name. DJ Ketchup or something like that. So just before you review the amateur, perfect deflection from both of them. When I talk about the head of the CIA on Signalgate,

and James Hawes just acknowledges the point and moves on and talks about the genre. Then it's just, Lawrence Fish was basically, he obviously didn't want to get the film into any trouble. But when I say, you know, we don't know if the CIA are on our side anymore. And he says, if they think that, that's no no bad thing and then stops. Okay, that's kind of enough. But anyway, I just thought it was a lot of people will see the film and at various points, they'll be thinking, yeah, not sure this feels like a period drama to me at times. Yes. Well, yeah. Anyway, off you go. Yes. So enjoyable in place.

Okay. Yes. So, you know, as you said, this is the second feature film adaptation of a novel, but is the novelist pronounced Littell? Robert Littell? Let's go with that with confidence. Fine. So previously adapted in 81 with John Savage as Charles Heller, CIA cryptographer who blackmails his superiors into letting him hunt down and kill the terrorists who murdered his wife. So in this version, Rami Malek is in that lead role. Apparently,

Hugh Jackman was previously attached, which would have been a very, very different film to have Hugh Jackman in that role. He's not a weed apart from anything else. No, and it was funny because you said weed and then Lawrence Fishburne said dweeb or somebody said dweeb. Neither of those could ever be, I mean Hugh Jackman would have to walk a very long way to get to that. Anyway, directed by James Hawes, who of course you just heard there, whose previous stuff, One Life, did some Black Mirror, but significantly slow horses, which you brought up. This does have a similarly, it's hard to explain, sort of a muted,

downbeat feel to it. That despite the fact that it does have action sequences, I mean, it has chases, it has runny jumpy stuff, and it has the glass swimming pool set piece, none of which could be described as low key. Yet, it does have that same just sense of what I think you were referring to when you said like a sort of 70s thriller, there is a certain muting of things. So the director was saying in that interview, the espionage genre is where we go when the world is fractured and distorted. And he calls Charlie an unexpected underestimated hero. And he says that the key thing is that basically he's a tech guy who remains a tech guy despite the fact that he goes for training.

He still can't shoot. He's told very clearly at the beginning, he can't hit anyone with a gun unless he shoots them from point blank range. He is told by Laurence Fishburne's character, you won't be able to do it. The reason is because you are not a killer. There's a funny line when Laurence Fishburne's character, you said Henderson, he says, my friends call me Hendo. You can call me Colonel Henderson, nicely done.

So he is basically charged with turning Charlie into a killer, but knows that he can't do it. From your point of view in that interview, very sharp analysis of amateur as lover. I had no idea that was the case. I had absolutely no idea that amateur comes from amour. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Okay. I'll give you the whole thing. So amateur, one who has a taste for some art, but does not practice it from the French amateur, one who loves or lover. So that's that's a direct French translation. And I mean, that is absolutely brilliant in relation to this

because as you said, the whole thing is motivated by the fact that at the beginning, we get his relationship with his partner who he then loses. That's the thing that sets the thing in motion. And there is quite a lot of him being completely grief-stricken before it turns into being an espionage thriller. And even turns into being an espionage thriller. Even whilst he is an espionage thriller, he is still a bit of a klutz.

He is somebody who is buttoned down, who is emotionally withdrawn. It is a film which has a Cold War heritage, but a modern tech framework. Now, here would be my issues. Laurence Fishburne said in that interview that over the last 20 years or so, these films have become a little bit formulaic, that you kind of know what you're going to get. He said that even Jason Bourne, who doesn't know who he is, has got all these effectively superpowers. They're saying that the difference here is that Charlie doesn't have those.

He remains somebody who is basically inept in the field. I think that's true. I think outside of that central conceit, this is a well trodden road. I mean, the phrase you used, you said there's a lot about, there's a lot of this film that is familiar. And you were talking about paranoid seventies thrillers. And I think that with the exception of that central conceit

that the character is basically not a hero. You know, he's not somebody who has incredible skills, particularly not in the area that he's meant to have them for this particular task. But the rest of it does feel very familiar. I think the most shocking thing, and you brought this up, is in the wake of Signalgate, you think, okay, Charlie's an amateur, but look at what's happening in the real world. You were literally in a place, the hegephs of this world, drunken bozo nutball idiots discussing matters of rampant national security because they accidentally... The idiocy of what's going on at the moment.

In this film, it imagines that there is a character who's very good at their particular job who then has to step out of it and their superiors are kind of sinister and their superiors are quite sharp but sinister. In the real world, apparently, they're just idiots. That is a more shocking thing. The other thing that you're right about is that this doesn't have a tourist's eye view of the world. I think that is a very good point.

But that and the uniqueness of the central character are really the main selling points. I think beyond that, it is a sort of twisty throw. I mean, as the plot goes on, it does get more preposterous. By the time you get to the end, the end is one of those, oh, come on. It's just like, yeah, no, I'm not buying that at all. I sort of stopped buying it after the glass swimming pool. But nice detail there about the star of the first film, cameoing as a flower seller, that was nice.

So whilst it was on, I enjoyed it. And I like the idea that Hendo, he's brought in to train this guy to become a super assassin and he can't do it because the guy isn't super assassin. And that's it. And that's the main thing. Beyond that, I think it's fairly standard, to use your word, familiar fare. But I enjoyed it perfectly whilst I was watching it. I'm not sure that I'll remember it in two weeks' time.

It does fall into the category in which there are scores and scores of films and TV series, which we rely on the fact that they find this thing that's happened, this injustice, this crime, whatever it is, as long as we can take this to the top, we'll be fine. The problem comes as if the top is the problem. I know we don't need to talk about politics, it's not a political podcast. But it is relevant for us to believe films like this, this relates to a world which when they made the film did exist and now doesn't. Because if you take it to the top, that doesn't solve anything at all.

No, but that sort of having a mistrust of all authority, whether it's the CIA or whatever it is, that is fairly well ingrained. I almost struggle to think of an espionage thriller in recent, at all, in which at some point the people doing the work aren't double-crossed by their superiors. The difference is that here, the superiors are smart. What's changed is that now they're just dumb. The awful, awful reality now is it may not be that people are conspiring against you in really twisty, sneaky ways. It may be that they're just morons. On that cheerful prospect, I feel as though we need to move on, maybe, I don't know, to the world of comedy.

Oh, please. I'm just looking at what's coming up you know. I'm just looking at your face. Yeah. Hey Mark I went to the library this week. I asked the librarian if they had any books on paranoia and she whispered they're right behind you. That's good.

Any on deja vu? Nope. How about the Dunning-Kruger effect? What? She sneered? You think you can write a book about that? Any on deja vu? Following on from the success of Dog Man, I felt inspired to write a canine adventure

book of my own. I'm pitching it next week. Pavlov's Dog Man is what I'm calling it. But you know me, I adventure book of my own. I'm pitching it next week. Pavlov's Dog Man is what I'm calling it. But you know me, I like to do my research, assess what's out there. So I asked the librarian, because we're still in the library for the context of this joke, if it had already been done. It rings a bell, she said. Hey! Shredding his cat then? In the box, she said. In the box.

I think. Correspondence at Kerbidabaya.com. In our final section, Mark, what are you up to? One to one, John and Yoko. After this. Okay, Martin, let's try one. Remember, big. You got it.

The Ford It's a Big Deal event is on. How's that? Uh, a little bigger? Ahem. The Ford It's a Big Deal event. Nice. Now the offer? Lease a 2025 Escape Active all-wheel drive from 198 bi-weekly at 1.99% APR for 36 months with $27.55 down. Wow, that's like $99 a week. Yeah, it's a big deal.

The Ford It's a Big Deal event. Visit your Toronto area Ford store or ford.ca today. So we've talked about the new San Mendez Beatles project with the bingeable Thor biographies coming up, which have been unveiled. And, you know, I trust Sam Mendes to do all of this stuff and I'm sure, and you know, his cast looks great, four wonderful leading guys to play John Paul, George and Ringo. It's just that for everyone else who's working in that Beatles vein, they're thinking, oh, really?

And so that's why, you're thinking, oh, really? Are the people responsible for one-to-one John and Yoko? Are they going to be troubled by this or not? No. I cannot remember a period when there was this much interest in the Beatles. I've been listening to all these years, as I said, we're 31 hours into listening and they've only just become the Beatles because Ringo's only just joined. Sam Mendes is doing those biopics, Peter Jackson did all the Let It Be sessions and then the

rooftop concert which was remastered to be shown in cinemas. I had that fleeting cameo as a skiffle band in the Brian Epsteinstein biopic Midas. Everywhere you look, there is Beatles stuff. So now, new documentary from Kevin MacDonald, who of course you've interviewed, made One Day in September, Touching the Void, Marley, Whitney, and Sam Rice Edwards. So this is a documentary, it's called One to One, John and Yoko, and it follows the period of John Lennon and Yoko Ono living in a loft apartment

in Greenwich Village in the early 70s, around that 71, couple of years, being involved with each other, with television, with Jerry Rubin, and with idealistic politics. Here is a little clip from one to one. OK, shall we start? Yeah. OK.

So John. Yoko. Take your legs out of bed so you don't look like you're in bed. The main thing that Yoko and I are doing, and Jerry, and all the people we're involved with, is to change the apathy that all the youth have. We must get them excited about what we can do again. And that's why we're going to go on the road, speak to them, sing to them, and do

anything to get them alive again. And that's our job and that will, from America it will spread to the rest of the world. Feeble la revolution. You see, one thing for me, I find it hard to hear that and not hear ruttles because it's the plumbing. We're talking about the plumbing of anyway. So the title for this doc comes from the benefit concerts that John and Yoko ended up putting on for the children of the Willowbrook institution. From which that concert, this has got remastered audio and footage.

And it was the remastered stuff that was first brought to Kevin McDonald. He said, okay, well, this is interesting, but what I want to do is expand the project and see how this came about. What were the events that led up to it because it was Lennon doing a concert after The Beatles, the only one. Fans will know that that concert had previously spawned the Live in New York City album from 86. There was an accompanying video for that. Sean O'Noughlin oversaw the remastering of the audio for the film, which like so many

rock picks now, like becoming Led Zeppelin and in fact like Moonage Daydreams being released in IMAX because this has become a very big thing for IMAX, is footage of great rock and roll acts. I went to see Dance Craze in IMAX that was shot on 35 horizontally, so that it could be blown up for 70 mil IMAX. So the concert footage is fine, and the audio is remastered and everything. What is much more intriguing is the story around it.

So it's the early 70s, John and Yoko convinced that they were being bugged, started recording their phone calls. And this in a very sort of Nixonian way provides this extraordinary archive that Kevin MacDonald has called the beating heart of his film, these recordings of phone conversations. And the recordings, I mean, they're incredibly candid.

There's an ongoing attempt all the way through the documentary of Yoko Ono to procure some flies for an art exhibition that she's doing. And there's a whole thing about how can we get the flies and how much will they cost and where can we get them from and will they be alive and blah, blah, blah. Then we hear Yoko Ono discussing what it was like for her in the wake up of the Beatles breaking up and her being blamed for it and vilified.

There's all this stuff about their attempts to do a, they were going to do a bail tour at one point. They had this idea that they were going to do a tour and wherever they went, they were going to get people out of jail on bail. That was what the concert was going to do. Then there's this long saga of this guy that they knew who was going through Bob Dylan's bins and accusing him of being a fake folk artist because he was a millionaire, and they're trying to get him

to leave him alone because they want him to be involved. It's all this weird inter-Nicene stuff. As a backdrop to all of this, you have the politics of that era, which of course is Vietnam, Nixon, Attica, the shooting of George Wallace, and John and Yoko's often quite haphazard engagement in politics. This weird thing that, like Elvis, they loved nothing more than watching TV. In fact, the Willowbrook thing happened because they'd seen a piece about it on the television and thought, well, that's what we ought to be doing. Then you get Alan Ginsberg and Jerry Rubin. There's poetry and there's

politics and there's them sitting around in the bedroom watching television. Then there's another story about the fact that Yoko is trying to be reconnected with her child. All these things are going on and they all lead in a very chaotic pinball way to the concert, which finally happens. But in order to tell this story, one of the things the filmmakers did was they rebuilt

the apartment that they lived in. They constructed it and the camera prowls around this very detailed reconstruction of the area in which John and Yoko were living, watching television, taking their phone calls, receiving their stuff, and it sounds like it shouldn't work. It sounds like that's just a slightly preposterous device, but weirdly

enough it does. I thought this was really enjoyable. I thought this was really interesting because it's a sort of depiction because obviously there's so much about the Beatles. But the period afterwards, the aftermath, them going to New York, the fact that they were trying to deport them from New York and they were trying to take root there, but they were at risk of being thrown out. I find that whole period fascinating. As is so often the case with these Kevin MacDonald documentaries, he really gets into stuff that even if you vaguely knew about it, you didn't really know about it. It's kind of like spending time with people when they're really, on the one hand, they're

really, really engaged, and on the other hand, they're kind of fantastically naive. The way in which they're engaging with politics, you heard it in that thing, it's just like, yes, well, wherever we go, we just, I'm not going to do the accent, wherever we go, we've just got to get over the apathy, we're going to sort all the apathy and do the thing. As I said, that reminds me of the Rutles. I really enjoyed this. Believe me, I have seen and listened to so much Beatles stuff recently. I did sit and made exactly the same thoughts you had.

Couldn't it possibly be anything new? The answer is yes, there is. This is a very, very, very engaging portrait of two people in a strange time in their life, desperately trying to be engaged with the world, and often in a really, really haphazard manner, but in a way that you actually feel that you do get to know something about them. So I liked it very much. That is the end of take one. This has been a Sony Music Entertainment production.

This week's team, Jen, Eric, Josh, Vicki, Zacky, Heather. The producer was Jem, and if you're not following the pod already, please do so wherever you get your podcast. Mark, what is your film of the week? One to one, John and Yoko. We'll be back next week with Alex Garland and Ray Mendoza. Also, Take Two has landed adjacent to this here podcast. So if you're a Vanguard Easter, there are so many more, a whole bunch of stuff which you're going to find very engaging. Thank you very much.