Kermode & Mayo’s Take - MICHAEL SCOTT invites you into The Office: SHRINK THE BOX

Episode Date: June 11, 2024

Ben and Nemone stroll into The Office (USA). They consider the differences between Michael Scott and David Brent, explore ego and ask why some people think they’re funny (when they’re just not). We want to hear about any theories we might have missed, what you’ve thought of the show so far and your character suggestions. Please drop the team an email (which may be part of the show): [e-mail]  NEXT CLIENTS ON THE COUCH. Find out how to view here Chandler, Friends (selected episodes)  Sydney, The Bear (season 2)  Tyrion, Game of Thrones (seasons 1&2).  Alex and Bradley, The Morning Show (Season 1)   Tasha, Orange is the New Black (season 2)  Polly, Peaky Blinders (seasons 1&2)  CREDITS  We used clips from The Office USA, series 1 on Netflix.   Starring  Steve Carell as Michael Scott,   Rainn Wilson as Dwight Schrute  John Krasinski as Jim Halpert  Jenna Fischer as Pam Beesly  Created by: Greg Daniels, Ricky Gervais and Stephen Merchant.   Written by: reg Daniels, Ricky Gervais, Stephen Merchant, Mindy Kaling, B.J Novak,   Directed by: Ken Kwapis, Ken Whittingham, Greg Daniels.  Produced by: Deedle Dee Productions, Reveille Productions and NBC Universal. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts.  To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [e-mail]. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello listeners, now we're here to tell you about our sibling podcast, which is Shrink the Box. Each week, Ben Bailey-Smith of this parish and DJ-trained therapist, there aren't many of those, Nimone Metaxas, put TV's bold and bizarre characters on the couch. Coming up. Michael Scott from Office USA. If you're a UK aficionado, you'd know him as David Brent. Steve Carell plays him in this version. Same cringing, tone deaf and heavy handed character. He's no stranger to the worst timed comment imaginable, and can't seem to buy respect from his co-workers.

On with the show. Oh, this is so important, I should run to answer it. Shut it, shut it, shut it, shut it, shut it, shut it, shut it, shut it, shut it, shut up. Come on. Six million dollar man. Steve Austin. Actually, that would be a good salary for me. Don't you think? Six million dollars? Memo to Jan. I deserve a raise.

Don't we all? I'm sorry? It's nothing. If you're unhappy with your compensation, maybe you should take it up with HR. Okay? Not today, okay? Pam, just be professional.

Ben Bailey-Smith here. And alongside Ben, it is me, in a moment, Axel's here with you too. Oh, what a pleasure. How you doing, mate? I'm good. It's good to be back with you in this space. Yes.

Where we get a little therapeutic at moments. I actually saw you and your other guys not too long ago. I came to see you DJing. Oh, behind the decks. It was quite, it was a strange, it was mixed emotions for me. Okay. It was very enjoyable and you were very good. But then I thought, oh oh she's good at this

too. And I thought that she's jumping into my lane of being able to do different things quite well. Oh no. Start winding your neck in a little bit. This is definitely part of that. This is still the honeymoon period, Ben. Yeah, it's true.

I think there's a moment where you're going to be like, yeah. There's bumps and forks to come, but for now it's lovely. I'm really enjoying it. Tell us a bit about that clip we kicked off. Oh, that is Steve Carell playing Michael Scott from the American version of the office with that clip typifying what a contradiction he is. Michael constantly throughout this first series doing comedy skits to impress the staff, make them laugh, that they're not really party to or invited into or does he want them to join in unless it's on his terms. He is the boss which comes with a certain

level of status and power but he does not want the responsibility, he wants to be liked by everyone. But alongside this we see an inflated sense of self, sees himself as more important in people's lives than perhaps he is. I mean, there's loads to cover as ever. And we are so eager to know your theories, thoughts and experiences of Michael Scott alikes that you've known or worked with. Shrink the box at SonyMusic.com. Ben, for you, the American office. It's a strange position for me because, you you know I work closely with Gervais from like

2012 to 2017 and within that time wrote on stuff that he was working on including a movie version of The Office. The feeling of closeness I have to David Brent. Yeah and the entanglement makes it really difficult to watch this without comparing. And of course, the first season of The US Office famously is kind of aping that style and even some of the storylines and characters in terms of phrase and jokes. To be fair to The Office US, from what I've heard, it totally expands its horizons and becomes way more comfortable in its own American skin in later series. They obviously realized, didn't they, from that first series that that's what they had

done and that it wasn't necessarily going to be landing in the same way. British and American culture, before you even get to humour, is so amazingly different. Like they always say, we're sort of bonded by a language and that's about it. Yeah, how we use that language is so, so different. But yeah, ultimately you've got Steve Carell. It's funny because I've been watching the morning show as well, which is like, I know we're going to cover that as well. I did think of that. It's a great reminder. This US office of how amazing Steve Carell is because almost effortlessly he can jump from comedy to drama and pathos, arrogance, humility. He's just got it all. I genuinely think he

is remarkable. I agree. He's comfortable with the uncomfortable, which is not easy. I imagine it's not easy to do as an actor. Absolutely. I found this version of it so excruciating. What I noticed from The Office is deep self-consciousness, which I suppose is the undoing of what we've just said. He's really comfortable being that self-conscious and it comes across as really authentic. He's acting. Am I right? The Office was one of the first films in that documentary style,

but not real life. There's a line, a historical line you can trace back to Christopher Guest. So Chris Guest would have been the first. I mean, there's probably something before him, but he's the first to really make it, you know, a mainstream concept with Spinal Tap and, and then the other amazing films that he made and whatnot. We'll come onto that kind of lineage a little bit later, but we see from the beginning of the pilot episode, episode one, Steve Carell playing to the camera as well as trying to get a laugh from the room he's in. For me, the comedy comes more from the other characters.

So Jim and Dwight and the writing rather than Michael, who thinks he's the funniest character. All right. So we're going to dig into Michael Scott and the world of the American office. A reminder that there will be adult content. we'll be spoiling season one for you. We're going to be looking at why Michael Scott is such a bad comedian, how it affects his colleagues and his workers nerves when they're constantly thrown under the bus and experiencing all this inappropriate behaviour in the office. We'll work it out. Welcome to Shrink the Box.

All right, let's get into the recap. This is season one, Office USA. It went on air 2005, so just a few years after the success of the original Office, which was created by Ricky Gervais and Stephen Merchant, and Greg Daniels developed it for American television. He's got the bulk of the writing credits on here as well. So a documentary crew has come to the Scranton branch of Dunder Mifflin, which is this print company that work with paper to observe the life of an office and its management. Jan is the antagonist from head office. She comes in to tell the regional manager, Michael Scott, Steve Carell's character, that there may be downsizing. And this is the tension that begins the series. He initially tries to keep it a secret. You know, he says, he says, would I tell them? No, I don't see the

point of that. Now as a doctor, you wouldn't tell a patient they had cancer. And this is the moment that we sort of realised, okay, this is what we're working with. Then we've got this sort of hero, which would have been Martin Freeman. Instead of Tim, he's called Jim Halpert, played by John Krasinski, very lovable. And he's attracted clearly to Pam, the receptionist, who I think the feeling is mutual. You sort of get that feeling from the start,

but she has this sort of surly fiance who works in, I think he's like a handyman in the building. And Jim and Pam spend a lot of time together. They laugh a lot about Michael and some of the other annoying staff members like Dwight, who's assistant to the regional manager, but he likes to call himself assistant regional manager. Get it right. So yeah, Michael Scott is overseeing all of this with minimal anything really, minimal effort.

Minimal responsibility, as much as he can shirk off. Tell us a bit about what we know. Male regional manager of Dunder Mifflin, single, pretty clear on that, 45 years old. So you might get curious about the lack of information about his background. And first notices? It's very clear from the first episode of this six episode first series that Michael Scott has an incessant need to be liked by everyone he works with.

And we see it straight away from that first episode when he's introduced to the Tent Worker. I'm sort of a student of comedy. Watch this. Here we go. I'm Hitler. I'm Hitler. I'm Hitler. I'm Hitler. When he's grabbed a ruler from the table to be a mustache, he's goose-stepping across the office.

When he's grabbed a ruler from the table to be a mustache, he's goose-stepping across the office. He's excreciating listening to it. He's excreciating listening to it. But he's trying to make the whole office laugh, which they don't. But he's trying to make the whole office laugh which they don't he's inappropriate at every turn and when we can hear it in the subject matter for his comedy what he thinks is gonna be funny but he cannot manage and discipline his staff because he just doesn't want to be disliked so he's been told by head office he has to choose a healthcare package for the team he chooses the best one he

is then told by Jan from head office that he has to save money and just pick a provider with the cheapest option. So here again, we see his deep discomfort about being the bad object. He knows he's got to make a really difficult decision and present that to staff who aren't going to want to do it. He's got to hold a boundary, but not only can he not bear the thought that they're not going to like him very much, it feels like a suicide mission to Michael, a kind of matter of life or death. There are survival reasons for this. I'll get into that in a bit. But in typical Michael fashion, he ends up passing the buck. So he gives the job to Dwight, who of course has assumed this title as assistant. So he seems to start with the best intentions, but in

reality ends up doing a hideous job, a more harm than good. And for him, it's never about the other. It's always about how he looks. How do people feel about him? How's he doing? The altruism seems not to be there at all. Yeah, he's like a baby, you know, hiding his face behind his hands and thinking that people can't see him. I mean, you're so right to identify as baby toddler behavior, which again, I think, points to a developmentally young position. If he thinks, if I can't see you, you can't see me, that connects to object permanence. Around the age of 18 months, babies start to mature to be able to recognize that their carer doesn't disappear completely once they're out of sight. Their toy is still there

even when they are not. But it's much later developmentally that children take on board that other people have separate thoughts, feelings, and that your actions have consequences which impact the other. His need to be liked is all consuming. And that I think connects to wanting to be part of the pack, an integral part of the wider group. For me, that demonstrates a deep seated need to belong. And that comes again from a young position and is sort of demonstrative of a survival technique in lots of ways. Very primal. If we aren't part of the pack, we're not getting looked after or protected. We may fear being cast out and therefore not surviving. And there is this sense it could feel like a matter of life or death for Michael,

this desire to belong. He's going to try any means possible to be liked, belong, part of the group. And his sort of wonky idea of getting people onside, if I make them laugh, they might like me. I'd be curious about Michael's environment when he was growing up, how love was given and shown, what he might have been starved of growing up. I mean, he does feel like he's trying to fill a void with this need for attention. Humor for him breaks the tension around those more complex feelings that he might encounter. And it doesn't feel like he can mentalise about them or cope with the fallout of some of those feelings. Let's dig into that humour.

How come he doesn't notice? He's clearly watched a lot of comedy. He knows what a reaction to a joke should be. He never gets that reaction. He just gets silence. I mean, how does he not notice? His level of self-awareness is zero. It's exactly like when he has to write

a birthday card for Meredith. Yes. But he's built this up and he has this inflated sense of what I write has to be funny. And the authentic route, because he says, well, I'm just going to write happy birthday, you're great. Yeah. Why would you not, why would that not seem like a really good route?

We could think of that in terms of adhering to group norms. So sometimes it's really refreshing when somebody sits outside of that and doesn't follow the path you expect them to. And it can appear threatening to the group, the status quo, and we might get into othering there. He doesn't display a sense of shame or guilt where others might. That's also allowing us to think about social norms could be an example of neurodiversity. It's kind of difficult for him to read emotions or emotional communication.

They might be cut off for protective reasons. So I would be curious about his early experiences with emotion. It is all about him being the center of attention. He has no boundaries in terms of what he's willing to say or where he's willing to put himself. And he doesn't think about whether, you know, the impact on other people in terms of what he's going to say. And he says in the beginning, I'm a friend first, boss second and entertainer third. He kind of wants to show that he doesn't care about management, which he has to in

a way because he's the boss. This is where we see that real contradiction. And we see it happening in lots of environments, parenting offices, where people are really uncomfortable with taking a more powerful role. And that can be for all kinds of reasons. Did we get a fax this morning? Yeah, the one. Why is it in my hand? Because the company runs on efficiency of communication, right? So what's the problem, Pam? Why didn't I get it? You put it in the garbage can that was a special filing cabinet.

Pam wanted to give him this important fax, I think it is. He chucks it away. He chucks it away. Then when Jan requires him to have seen this fax, he chucks Pam onto the bus. What do you mean you threw it away? No one who works there wants to work there, right? Apart from him and Dwight. And then if your boss is displaying this behaviour of like at any moment, I can throw you under the bus. This is one of the worst ones because it's in front of the corporate wing of the

business. So yeah, it's shocker behavior really. I mean, it is interesting to look at his impact, Michael's impact on those working around him. Wazaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa Wazaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaá Wazaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaá Wazaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaáááááááááááááááááááááááááááááááááááááááááááááááááááááááááááááááááááááááááááááááááááááááá Jim lightly pointing out that that is an old joke that Michael has insisted on doing with his co-workers. I mean, they're laughing despite themselves. I'm not sure about Dwight because I think Dwight might actually be laughing, but to kind of please Michael rather than because he actually thinks it's funny. Then it goes quiet and we can see how awkward he can be with silence. I have a sense that that silence for him feels punishing rather than

a relief or something that he can just be with. He feels he has to fill that silence and fill it at all costs because the silence equals they don't like me. So he's filling in that space with all sorts of, this is my imagination, verbal kind of, or internal voices and critical voices. I have to fill it to abate this really uncomfortable feeling, not actually his responsibility, but he feels like it might be. I wanted to ask you about his humor actually and technically why it might fall flat. They say timing is a huge part of comedy and his timing is all over the place. You know, he picks the worst times to say the worst things.

And that understanding of your, and I'll put this in the air quotes, audience, because other human beings are not your audience. They're not here for you. I do relate to Michael Scott in that kind of fear of silence. to Michael Scott in that kind of fear of silence, I'm going to be assessed somehow and I've let everybody down, not being engaging enough. And I think if we take that to its natural conclusion a little bit like we've been talking about, they are not going to like me. I am not going to belong in this particular scenario, which means I'm cast out. And the feeling of that is excruciating

and can become a, if it really relates to early experiences, can be like, I'm not gonna survive. I'm not gonna survive the casting out or the being on the outside. Which makes it kind of crazy that he puts himself in that position so often. I mean, there's so little self-awareness that filling that silence with the verbal diary that he's constantly spewing is a surefire,

you know, fast track to people going, I hate this guy. I can't bear to be near this person. But that is a clue to the level of discomfort and this, and really that archetypal survival instinct. Right. Because if you don't do it, you are going to in air quotes, die. Do you see what I mean? Like you can't not do it. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm sure the alternative is unthinkable. Yeah. And it is death. And then when it is part of your profession, like, like me and you to some extent as well, it's like there is a fear of dying and a desire to kill in comedic terms I mean. You're more than willing to have a go every time. Alright, well listen, coming up we're going to get into these inappropriate Michael moments, crossing a boundary

crossing and we're going to look more into his inflated sense of self and what it might be covering up. So we'll be right back after these ads, unless you're a shrinker, in which case here's less than three seconds of music. Well, hello there. Simon and Mark here to tell you about Indeed. Yes, Indeed is driven by the search for better. But when it comes to hiring, the best way to search for a candidate isn't to search at all. Don't search. Match with Indeed.

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You need Indeed. Indeed. I had an experience once with somebody who wanted to like roleplay like, like with relative stuff. No. Yes. No. Yes. No, that's a hard cast. I said they wanted, they first said,

like dad, daddy, and I said- Well, that's not so bad. But so I suggested maybe like, I said maybe the most I could do is uncle. Okay, so that was just a snippet of an episode with actor and podcaster Justin Long. I'm Jesse Tyler Ferguson and I'm telling you, you need to listen to the full episode on

my podcast, Dinners on Me. Over a meal at Pine and Crane in downtown LA, we get into his love story with Kate Bosworth, his career and so much more. To listen, just search Dinners on Me wherever you listen to podcasts. Okay welcome back. Now you can't move for inappropriate comments from Michael Scott in the in the office USA. Let's get into a classic. And this is Roy. Roy dates Pam. You know the the best looking one upstairs? Yeah. You still getting it regular man? Huh? I mean I can tell her it's part of the job.

Ripper. I'm speechless Ben. He objectifies women constantly. He's inappropriate with them, about them in the first 10 minutes in the pilot. He says about Pam within earshot. If you think she's cute now, you should have seen her a couple of years ago and that makes it sort of really highly inappropriate meowing noise. It doesn't have female relationships, I don't think, you know, in general. I'd be curious if he has any relationships. Yeah, I don't think he has friends, so to speak. How he is in relation to others.

We hear a snippet in the first couple of episodes, maybe the second or third episode, one of his friends, I think maybe also works there in another department, calls in when Jan is in the office. You remember that? And the guy on the phone is really inappropriate about Jan. Yes. The boss. Yeah, yeah.

And I'm not sure he knows it's inappropriate. Almost again, we see the childishness. I'm going to be in trouble. Yeah. Cause he's looking at teacher, isn't he? And he's like, Ooh, there's no laughs here. You name it. He does it. There's an entire diversity day set up by head office because of his behavior. I found this really difficult. This is a tough watch. This, and he does this visible Chris Rock impression. And then later says, how come Chris Rock can

do this? And everybody finds it hilarious and groundbreaking. It's the very, very famous Chris Rock bit about the difference between black people and N-words. So he's created this world and it's a very sort of black joke for black people that's become this huge mainstream thing. But it's unbelievably important that it's told by a black person. Oh, it's sort of crucial to the actual joke as well. There's so many great jokes by comedians of all backgrounds, race and gender, that, you know, can be repeated verbatim and shared in a beautiful way, put on a t-shirt. But this is an incredibly

black joke. That's the only way to describe it. It shows us his complete lack of awareness of privilege and his own way of being in the world. Because he says, is it because I'm white and Chris is black? It's a genuine question. I mean, it's like, and he cannot countenance being the one that they set the diversity day up for because he really wants to believe that he's able to communicate in a way with everybody that is welcoming and equitable. I don't think he can countenance that he hasn't quite understood difference in the way that they're talking about diversity and difference.

Yeah. No, he's got no idea. You can see that from the name game that he plays. From all the exercises they try and do and then down to the fact that he's given a form to sign to say that he's understood the idea of empathy and respect and that actually the only signature that's important in the day is his. That's why they set up the diversity day and no one wanted him to feel under threat. So they've done it for everybody. And he really struggles to sign it and then signs the form Daffy Duck. I mean, general racial stereotyping to everyone in the office down to who can play basketball

the best. He can't even give the diversity tutor an inch of authority. Yeah. He can't do that either, despite not having any authority himself. I mean, there's an intersectionality of inappropriate. I think the Indian voice to the Indian colleague, that was difficult. Which has ended with the line, now she knows what it feels like to be a minority. I was just like, I don't know whether you'd get, would you get that made now?

It's really tricky. I think if it was written by an Indian, that scene, possibly to show up like extreme racism in the workplace. If possibly, I think it all depends on how things are created and then what the gaze upon that creation is. It's all very well going, no, but it's fine we had a black writer in the room. No black people watch this show. You know, it's a real thing. I suppose in their defence, it is a real thing and that is what they're portraying and they've not shied away from that, but just, it just feels a really uncomfortable way of doing it. Yeah.

I don't know. It felt a little bit seventies, didn't it? Yeah. At that moment. I did. I, that's when I looked up. I went, when was this written? When did it come out?

And were we watching that in the noughties thinking that's okay? And you know, I laugh at racists who say, well, it was a different time when they're talking about the early 2000s, but actually it was a different time. And I'm not justifying racism, but I think in terms of how we communicate and what we understand about appropriate channels of communication, how we speak to each other and treat each other, that has become profoundly more mainstream over the past 20 years with the rise of the internet and people having immediate response. Yeah.

A chance to respond. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's of its time. Yeah. Which I suppose led to my original question is it wouldn't be written in the same way now. A hundred percent it wouldn't. If I could tell you in the moment of the things that create wildfire levels of debate in development

rooms for comedy in 2024. Oh, I think it's probably. It's mad. I think it's probably, well across, and having worked with my other hat on in live radio, there's a lot of debate about what is appropriate and inappropriate. When I started in radio, what you'd be able to say and the way in which things were thought of, which is, was the turn of the millennium. I'm aging myself now. There you go. 99, 2000, beginning of the noughties.

Very different conversation now. Absolutely. And I still think there's loads of blind spots. Like, I think there's still not really an appreciation of how mainstream white culture is. For example, I've just written a sitcom that doesn't have any black, it's all white people, but no one has ever at any stage said, why are you writing this? Do you know what I mean? Whereas the other way around, if there's a white person writing a sitcom with all black characters, from the jump someone would be like, whoa, hold on.

To bring it back to the office, one thing that is eternally interesting, even if this scene feels dated, is the mask slipping. So, you know, an office, especially in a city America, is a fascinating place, even though it might seem boring on the surface, because people are forced together. So the office is an

important place because then you are going to see this Indian person, you are going to have to talk to this person who might have a different sexual orientation to you and you're all going to have to work it out. You're going to have to work it out. So as a comedy of manners, it's a perfect place. And then Gervais knew that And he worked in an office. Within this amazing setting, this amazing opportunity to learn about difference, Michael obviously just, he just does the complete opposite. And he'll make fun of difference without understanding the irony or understanding what might be offensive, what might be appropriate, what might be appropriate,

what might not be. And irony in context are not things that are anywhere on his radar. I'm not sure he can feel the nuance of relating in that kind of way. And that's especially important in comedy, I imagine, as anywhere else. So he does call himself a student of comedy, but like he did in the clip that we started with, but he doesn't feel like he understands his place societally yet within that and those around him. And when there's a moment that the bubble might burst and he gets a glimpse of the real him or a flaw he doesn't like, he can't be authentic or see himself as a whole person. Challenges and all. He has to maintain this veneer of perfection.

Listen, okay, don't panic. Although alarm bells are kinda going. We haven't made any decisions yet. I've spoken to Josh in Stanford. I've told him the same as you. Yeah, you can hear the panic in his voice when he's realizing that there are going to be jobs at stake, that he might have to step up and make some really difficult decisions in a management role that

means that people aren't going to like him, but it feels like they're not going to like him personally. I'm really cross with my manager because we've all been across in hierarchical environments where you're like, okay, they're managing. They're able to deliver some kind of positive criticism. I might not like it, but I can see that it's being delivered in an okay way. Or at least they've just been open with me.

They've said, look, this is it. If it was up to me, you'd stay, but I just don't have a choice. You just, you just want to know, don't you? You just want to know where you're at. And he's never going to do that for risk of, like you say, being hated. He is in charge and he's the boss. And that, and through that, I think he can fulfill his need to be the center of attention and kind of say what he likes. But it is like he's waiting for a boundary to appear or that there haven't been any.

So he's just kept going and going without anyone steering him in a particular direction. And again, that feels like it belongs to an early stage of development where, you know, children, when they feel like they control the world, the kind of the world is at their behest. I'm thinking he's a lonely guy. He doesn't have friends. He definitely doesn't have a romantic partner. No idea what his relationship with his parents was like. But I feel like there's a huge amount of low self-esteem

going on in the inner workings of Michael Scott's engine. But this ego that he demonstrates every day in the office is huge. You can't move for this desire to be like some kind of ego out in the middle of the office. That's a strategy for him to hide his low self-esteem. Well, I want to dig into that deeper, but let's take a quick break and we'll come back on the other side and talk about huge inflated egos, something I'm something of an expert on. Okay, and we're back. Yes, it is. It is me, the one, the only, the incredible, the unbelievable, the untouchable, Ben Bailey Smith, TV's BBS, and her, is he naming it? The Moan?

Am I here? So yeah, we wanna talk about inflated sense of self. Cause Michael needs, he needs to be liked. He wants to be the center of attention. He's got this ego, thinks he's the best at everything. Doesn't matter what it is, you know, like extreme sports, success with women, you don't buy any of it, right? I think in order to be a ladies man, it's imperative that people don't know you're a ladies man.

So I kind of play that close to the chest. I don't know, what can I say? Women are attracted to power. And I think other people have told me I have a very symmetrical face. I don't know, I don't know. Maybe they're right. I don't know. You can't know. Maybe they're right. I don't know. You get him reaching, right?

Yeah. I think that underlies his awkwardness for me. He doesn't know how to be who he is, how to make his way in the world. He's absorbed an incredible amount of cliches, but they're all surface. Who is he really? And he's gone from being a ladies man to symmetrical face. It is reaching, like you say. And there are countless examples of his ego taking over. I'm a role model. People say I'm the best boss in order to be a ladies man. He thinks whatever that actually means. I'm not even sure he's, that feels like again, he's saying something that he's not, it's not digested or not within him. It is a front. And we hope.

Anytime anybody starts a sentence with people say I'm, you just know, you know, the inflation is there. Again, we're into a really interesting area, Ben, because it's okay to feel confident. Absolutely. Because it's okay to feel confident. And in our world, sometimes that is shot down. And people feel uncomfortable with other people bigging themselves up. But this feels like it doesn't have any authenticity to it. And there's no trigger. It's not like someone's gone, hey, you really seem like a bit of a ladies man. What's the secret? Do you know what I mean?

I'm asking you for it. One of the amazing things about American society and culture is that properly placed confidence is massively celebrated in a way that we don't hear. You're able to celebrate your achievements. We don't trust a confident person in the UK. Why is he so confident? What's she smiling about? So whilst Michael is extremely insecure with not wanting his staff to dislike him, at the same time, there is this inflated sense of believing he's more than a manager. Features much more importantly in their lives than he perhaps really does. When he's in confessional style to the camera, we see the first instance of him believing his role takes way more precedence in his employees' lives than it actually does.

People say, I am the best boss. They go, God, we've never worked in a place like this before. You're hilarious. And you get the best out of us. I think that pretty much sums it up. I found it at Spencer Gives. So he's showing us the world's best boss mug here. As if he's been bought this by employees who think he's the best boss. But the payoff for us is he found it in a store, so he's actually bought himself the world's best boss mug. Flashes of our old friend narcissism. But I think he needs to believe this. This

again is part of, I am the best boss. I am doing a great job with this office full of people who love me and adore how I am. And if that all falls down, there's very little there for him, isn't there? I mean, his life, I imagine, makes zero sense outside of that building. It's wonderful how it's all set in the same room almost, but kind of foyer bit of the office. You kind of get the feeling that he almost doesn't exist outside of there. Exactly. Whereas, you know, little things that you learn about others like Pam and her

illustrations and, you know, Jim regularly saying it's not. Yeah, it's not for me. You can imagine them outside of that space. Yeah. I mean, on the narcissism front, because that could be, I mean, we say it's co-morbid, which means it can come alongside other, he could be displaying other kinds of behavior. Co-morbid. Yeah, co-morbid. So co-morbidity means you're showing more than one strand of behavior. You might get narcissism, co-morbid with something else. For Michael, it's still very important that this veneer of

appearing to be the best boss is kept. Otherwise it'll destroy him. And the other characters who've displayed narcissistic tendencies, Larry David, Cersei, all very different. He has a complete lack of self-awareness again, which I suppose is another example of his neurodiversity, which I've said before, you know, actually sometimes we don't want people to adhere to social norms, but Michael doesn't display much ability to mentalize and understand kind of what's happening for him. So I suppose I would get interested with that in the therapy room. What is his level of self-awareness? How much does he know of the impact of his actions on other people? On the narcissism front, there's a really interesting article from Men's Health magazine a few years ago

that we found that got an American therapist to diagnose Michael Scott based on the traits that he was exhibiting in the American office. They're digging into our game here. I don't think we should big them up that much. Back off. Well, via narcissistic personality disorder, which I guess we've been, we're sort of, I mean, I, I'm not, that's not how I practice psychotherapy. So I wouldn't be in the area of diagnosis, but from the way she's talking about this narcissistic personality disorder kind of leads her to histrionic personality

disorder. I mean, I would be looking at his early history, his relationships, his attachment style, his relationship, relational capacity and how he is in the room rather than to diagnose him with a particular personality disorder. But a diagnosis of this kind would be based on the over-inflated ego, which might reflect how badly he feels for himself. So he's overcompensating and projecting that badness into the other because it's unbearable that he might be the bad object or... So what would be your homework then for Michael Scott in the gentlest way possible? What would you think you'd send him off to have a go at for next week? I think he'd be highly unlikely to even reach the therapist's door.

I'm not sure he's aware of the disconnect between the fantasy that he's created and the world's best boss, everyone's friend being the funniest guy. And he might not even feel like he needs therapy. That, I mean, that is true. So you'd get this. So he might say, say he did reach a therapist through HR, which might be the route that he'd be asked to go and talk to somebody about issues. He'd be a challenge because any challenge to the fantasy that he's created, which you might start looking at when you're hearing someone talk about being the best boss and everybody's friends, you might kind of get curious about that.

Any challenge a therapist might make would be an experience as a threat to his ego and he might constantly be trying to make the therapist laugh. And we've talked about this, humor is great. It's a great way of breaking tension. But equally, if someone is telling you something that doesn't chime with, so they're being, they're kind of telling you something in a funny way, but it's actually really sad. It's sometimes useful to notice that with them because there's a disconnect between, this is something that's actually quite sad, but you're telling me in a funny way. And Mike, we see Michael Scott do that all the time in that he can't, there's not an authentic match sometimes with what he's trying to say.

Like I've got to deliver bad news about the healthcare, but I'm going to make a massive joke out of it or I'm going to pass it on to Dwight. You start to challenge that in the therapy room and that might get a little bit tricky for him. But you'd want to work with that. I mean, it will be quite a piece of work to work with someone as they explore what it's like to have challenging conversations. What advice would you give to people who had to work with somebody like that? I think what's interesting is they do find a way of working with it. I mean, I think in the end you'd be leaving. If he was the kind of constant in the office, the turnover of staff might be quite high in a climate where you might be able to easily get another

job. Otherwise, you're going to get a really dissatisfied workforce, which actually is what we end up seeing happening. Yeah. I think, and again, to highlight that difference between American and British culture, I think we'd eat for a lot longer. Say more. To avoid confrontation, I think we'd put up with a worse boss for longer. That's just my theory based on nothing.

And there you go. You've kind of answered your own question. So you'd be talking to the colleagues about what it's like to work with, because they're not going to be able to affect him. The other thing we're brilliant at as Brits, right? We actually need that moaning time. Do you know what I mean? It's kind of almost therapeutic to have a terrible boss, a terrible individual there, so that we can sort of deflect from the fact that we're not happy in this job, but at least we can unite in bitching about our own Michael Scott. So he might actually end up being the world's best boss, but not in the way that he thinks he is, because what you've talked about is a collective forming around this

terrible experience. He unites people. Them. Yeah. Which means he is on the outside, which is the last place he wants to be. Absolutely. Oh my God. Yeah.

It's, it's, it's tragic really when you peel back the layers. Thank God it's a comedy. All right. Thankfully there are laughs. Yeah. All right. Nimone tees Metaxas, the Metaxas tees. Do you want one of them? Yes please. Who's coming next?

Friends was our most listened to episode last season. With the very sad death of Matthew Perry, it has to be the brilliant Chandler. See now that I can see crying over over but Bambi is a cartoon. You didn't cry when Bambi's mother died. Yes, it was very sad when the guy stopped drawing the deer. I mean even it's everything about that isn't it? Deliveries, timing, it's just class. We will dig into the reason why Chandler always wants to be the one to jump in with a sarcastic comment, but his troubled childhood, his mother being a self-obsessed, erotic novelist and his father a gay burlesque star. Plus his inability to talk to women and of course that

anxiety. I mean, we dig for hours. We're going to do specific episodes actually. Oh great. Okay. Yeah. I mean, I'm sure I've said before, I was nervous about doing Friends in season one, because I just thought there wasn't going to be that depth and actually it was one of the most interesting episodes listening back. That was Monica you did, didn't you? I think we did Ross and Monica. Okay, siblings. And it was the first time we did more than one person as well. So yeah, I'm looking forward

to this one. I'm looking forward to digging back into Perry's work because that's a shame, isn't it? We give people their flowers after they've gone, but he's an, he was an amazing comedic performer. You ask anybody who likes Friends, who's your favourite character? It's almost always Chandler in terms of just who's funniest. I know. And I think he, as the series was actually airing, he dipped under the radar a little bit because the private life as was then of other characters. So you Jennifer Amherstons and you Courtney Cox was more in the limelight. And that might have drawn people to Monica and Rachel and Rachel's hair. So lots of things took precedence. But Chandler,

when you rewatch and you really take into account the comedic element of France, he's always doing something watching when he's not talking. He's always doing something comedic, brilliant clown. And don't forget, we can't cover everything in the short amount of time that we have. So please, your theories. So let us know what you think. We'd be thrilled as well if you could follow us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music or wherever you get your pod to get new apps. And please tell everyone you know so we can make some more.

Oh, do you want to be a shrinker? Do you want to be one of our team? You could get the Shrink the Box ad free by subscribing to Extra Takes and you get the ad free episodes from Kermode and Mayo's Take, our sister pod and all their weekly bonus episodes. There's loads of them. So and you can start no stress, no pressure, free trial by clicking try free at the top of the Shrink the Box show page on Apple podcasts or just visit extra takes.com on the browser. So of course to our wider team, thank you as ever.

At the top of the tree, Ben Bailey Smith, mean a moment actually. Don't cross me. Production management is Lily Hambly, the assistant producer Scarlett O'Malley, the studio and mix engineer Josh Gibbs, senior producer Selena Ream, and the executive producer Simon Paul,

coming in just under you Ben, I think. Yes. I believe, of course. Yes, yes, absolutely. And Sony, of course, they're right under my thumb. Yeah. Right then, just a reminder that there's a list of shows that we're covering on the show notes of this episode, so you know what to watch before we spoil it for you.

See you next week. Bye. Ta-da.