Kermode & Mayo’s Take - Michael Winterbottom, Someone’s Daughter, Someone’s Son, Bob Marley: One Love & The Taste of Things

Episode Date: February 16, 2024

Happy Valentine’s! Sit back and enjoy our latest episode – a gift to all film lovers. This week, director Michael Winterbottom talks to Simon about his new biographical thriller ‘Shoshana’, which follows the tragic real life love story between Shoshana Borochov and Tom Wilkin, set against the British Mandate in Palestine. Mark will be reviewing ‘Shoshana’ next week, but, in the meantime, gives his take on various other new releases, including ‘Someone’s Daughter, Someone’s Son’, a documentary in which filmmaker Lorna Tucker returns to her former haunts and speaks to current and former homeless people about why, 25 years on, record numbers of people are still reduced to living on Britain’s streets; ‘Bob Marley: One Love’, a biopic exploring the life and struggles of the legendary reggae musician and activist; and ‘The Taste of Things’, a romantic drama which follows the relationship between a cook, played by Juliette Binoche, and the gourmet she works for - an apt cinematic treat for this Valentine’s week. Timecodes (relevant only for the Vanguard - who are also ad-free!): 08:05 Somone’s Daughter, Someone’s Son review 19:59 Box Office Top 10 37:26 Michael Winterbottom interview 52:42 Bob Marley: One Love review 01:00:11 Laughter Lift 01:04:48 The Taste of Things review You can contact the show by emailing [e-mail] or you can find us on social media, @KermodeandMayo EXCLUSIVE NordVPN Deal ➼ https://nordvpn.com/take Try it risk-free now with a 30-day money-back guarantee! A Sony Music Entertainment production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts and follow us @sonypodcasts To advertise on this show contact: [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You don't have to struggle alone. Get free confidential mental health and substance use support at canada.ca slash mental health. If you or someone you know is thinking about suicide, call or text 988, a message from the thousands of years we've been doing this podcast, one of the things that one of the many things that we keep on saying and one of the things that you keep adding to your emails to the show is Love the Show Steve. In fact, there are some emails to the show this week that sign off by saying Love the Show Steve. And I would like to say, I think we both agree with this, that this should carry on. Yes, because obviously very sad news this week of Steve Wright's passing, which still seems

utterly preposterous at the age of 69. In fact, we are we just kind of nicked that phrase because we thought it was funny. And I remember walking down a street somewhere and someone cycling past and they just shouted, love the show, Steve. It was one of those, you know, Jason Isaacs comments. It was just, I listened to the show, but I'm too embarrassed to say, I listened to the show. Exactly.

I did once apologize to Steve for the fact that we'd stolen it and he went, have it. Yeah. So you were on, so I worked with him at Radio 1 and at Radio 2, obviously. And when I was doing drive-time, I was on just after him. So I would always go in and say hello, and he was always very welcoming and very friendly. But whenever you had books out.

Or anything. You went on. Yeah, I mean, it was the show to go on. If you had a book, if you were doing a concert, if you were doing whatever it was, if you could get on the Steve Wright show, it was fantastic. And you'd go into the studio,

and there'd be him and maybe one or two other people in the studio with him. Toom Smith, Jenny Lee Grace, one of those. Yeah, precisely. And then you do this kind of, you know, you do the interview and it would be, they'd be clapping and whooping and everything would make you kind of feel really up

and really excited and they'd play stuff. And then of course when Steve was doing the show live, it would be him in the studio with carts. It was like Wolfman Jack. It was like he was kind of creating this. He used cartridges long after they'd been banned from the studio. No one else was allowed to use cartridges. Big clunky hands. But he had one studio which he used and it was the Steve Wright studio and no one else used it.

Yeah, and it was great. And we were just talking about this in the car and the way here. He was the same on air as he was in person. He was one of the very few people who would come up to you in the street and go, all right, you know, he was righty. He would always refer to himself in the third person, you know, which of course in some people is a slightly strange thing. But it was-

In his case was utterly jumping. Yeah, he would just say, right is here, rather than saying hello, he'd say that. But Danny Baker on Twitter, I think it was, he said, most of us are just on the radio. That's what we do. And hopefully we do it with a degree of professionalism. Steve was never just on the radio.

It was radio that you kind of lent into, you know, that you listened to, that, you know, the features, the ideas, the characters, the whole atmosphere of what he did on the afternoon. You didn't want to miss it. Also, it's weirdly generational, because I remember growing up listening to Steve Wright and because that whole format,

that kind of, I suppose you must have taken inspiration from American radio. Oh, very much so. But that whole thing about, you know, characters sketch comedy, I suppose you must have taken inspiration from American radio. Oh, very much so. But that whole thing about your character, sketch comedy, all that stuff, which was like a big form. So the thing I remember about his shows was he had opening music and closing music. At a time when you were told that radio shows had,

the programs had to blend seamlessly from one to the other, not Steve. He's like, here we go, this is the big show, and then it would finish. And then my kids, my child too, and the good lady professor, her indoors, would be coming back from whatever it was that they were doing and they would sit in the car

in order to hear the outro music, which was Wichita Lime Man, wasn't it? And he had the pips over it and they wouldn't get out of the car until Steve Wright had finished doing it because they used to love that piece of music. And Steve Rosenberg is the BBC's Russian editor. He often films himself playing the piano with usually a theme

that connected with something in popular culture. Anyway, he played one of Steve Wright's early themes, film of him on the piano, which is very high praise. Anyway, so, love the show Steve. Love the show Steve. And please feel free to keep on using that. I think that's going to sound fine and Steve would absolutely love it. Well, as I said, he did say have it.

Yes, and as he told us, we can have it, we will carry on using it. So anyway, on the show later on, what are you doing? I'm fine, I'm fine. I'm a bit of a script. What am I doing? We're going to be reviewing Bob Marley One Love, Someone's Daughter, Someone's Son, and The Taste of Things. And our special guest is going to be Michael Winterbottom. He has directed and co-written a film called Shoshana, which is out next week. So we'll talk to Michael Winterbottom, we'll talk about Shoshana and then Mark will review it next week. Also Extra Takes Has Landed is with you, the weekend watch list.

Also reviews, what are the bonus reviews? Two reissues, they've reissued Les Miserables and also One From The Heart. One From The Heart is one, I just have filmed my absolute love of Complete Disaster in the cinema, absolutely died on its feet. Another plot smash and one frame back is about music biopics. Notice biopics inspired by Bob Marley One Love. You can get all those Apple podcasts or you can go to extratakes.com for non-fruit related devices. If you're already a vanguardista, as always, we salute you.

Stuart in Estonia. I hope I get some of this vaguely right, Dear Nordic and Baltic. I've had an experience with a foreign language film, so strange, I believe it warrants a line of inquiry with other listeners. I've recently relocated from London till Viljandi is what I'm guessing,

Estonia for workers and musician, and have been settling into the Great White North for a few weeks. One of my comforts during this time has been your good witterings and streaming many films as the people of Estonia are not so social at this time of year, something to do with the minus 20 degrees weather and six hours of daylight.

So when a friend invited me to the cinema to see an Estonian action film, I eagerly took them up on the offer, having enjoyed the documentary, Smoke Saw on a Sisterhood by Anna Hintz. Have you seen Smoke Saw on a Sisterhood? I don't think I have. Smoke Saw on a Sisterhood by Anna Hintz. Have you seen Smoke Saw on a Sisterhood? I don't think I have.

Okay. The filming question is Natomatu Vurituz by Reina Sanet. It's translated as The Invisible Fight. It's about a Soviet-era army man who after surviving an attack on a base on the USSR-China border, decides he must learn the secrets of black metal kung fu from a group of

Russian Orthodox Christian monks. This sounds great. This sounds like essential viewing. Throughout this action comedy drama are protagonist battles pride, temptation, desire, and his other demons while improving his own life and the lives of people he loves through dual power of martial arts and religion. I think, so Stuart. There are many subtitles. I found much of the film's metaphors and humor quite puzzling, especially since my Estonian companions were laughing and crying throughout the film. I'm no stranger to Estonian culture,

having spent quite a lot of time here before my immigration, but it was quite unmooring to watch a film and be so disconnected with what was happening on screen. It made me feel like a beginner all over again, like a new level of a video game has just been unlocked. I've had experience of recommending films to friends from abroad and feedback amounting to how British the film was.

Sometimes positive, Wallace and Gromit curse the wear rabbit, sometimes as a negative, Monty Python and the Holy Grail. To have the experience myself was certainly new and quite interesting on reflection. Thus I wish to open a new section in X-PATS enclave about cinema experiences in the UK or abroad that made viewers feel very foreign at that moment. I'm sure you have many responses given the wide geographic range of listeners. Stuart in Estonia, thank you

very much indeed. X-Pats Enclave, over to you. And in fact, as he says, if you've been in this country and felt foreign, or if you've watched a film anywhere abroad and felt, even when you thought- You felt profoundly foreign. I am a part of this culture. Then you go and see if him and go,

oh, okay, maybe I'm not. Correspondents at comeonandmayo.com, tell us about something that is new. Okay, so someone's daughter, someone's silenced- Is that a quote from the John Farnham song? You're the voice. I don't know. Is that a line?

We're all someone's daughter, all someone's son. In that case, probably yes. Okay, fine. Is it Australian? No, no, it's a documentary about homelessness in the UK. But the point is it is, now a kid, he's going, we're all someone's daughter, we're all, fine. That's the one. But it's about the, where are all some one's daughter? Fine, okay. But it's about the fact that we are all someone's daughter,

someone's son. So it's a documentary by Lorna Tucker, whose previous work includes, she made a documentary about Vivian Westwood called Westwood Punk Icon Activist. The documentary focuses on a number of people who have experienced or are experiencing homelessness. Lorna Tucker gets them to tell their stories.

And she uses interviews, she uses reportage footage, and in the case of Earl from South Shields, she uses some of his poetry. Here's a clip. Where do I start? I don't know where. My life had been so complicated, I didn't think anyone cared. But here I go with so much to say

by the time of 35, I was feeling three times my age. Well, first of all, it was what I see, was my dad hitting the mom when I was only three. Then and after that, nothing did much change, only more pain afflicted on my brother and me. I had seen more than most, and I was only five. That pain I felt wasn't just inside. My mom blackened blue, me, I took some pain.

My brother being disabled, I would not have him hold a shame. I tried so hard to be the man of the house, but my so-called dad beat me down on a mouse. That's just the first part of a life that I don't experience more than twice. So obviously the subject of homelessness is one which is dark and difficult and we see people dealing with the day-to-day hardships of homelessness. We hear about their struggles to get back on their feet. We hear about the organizations that help them and the organizations that don't help them.

We hear from the big issue founder, John, who actually says at one point, all governments just end up messing up. They all talk about doing something, but they all end up not doing it. And we also hear that it's not an insolvable problem. One of the things that the documentary really wants to do is that people to come out of it thinking, this is terrible, I can't do anything about it. Actually, what the documentary does is says,

these things are terrible, but this problem can be solved. It can be solved with a number of fairly simple steps if only people were willing to do them. So here's the interesting thing. The film is very empathetic, Colin Firth is on board, Brian Adams did a song for it. Lorna Tucker herself experienced homelessness first hand and I think that's one of the reasons why the dock is as good as it is, because it is that thing about people share their stories with you when they realize that you have a similar experience. I interviewed her on stage at the BFI and she talked about how when she was

first a filmmaker, she tried to hide the story of her homelessness. She didn't want people to know about it because she thought that they would judge her. And then when people found out, they said, no, you should make something about this. She said, when somebody first asked if she wanted to do it, she said, absolutely not. I don't want to touch it with a barge pole.

But then she did. And I think what's really lovely about this doc, I mean, I found the doc very moving, but not moving in an, oh, this is all terrible way, moving in a, this is energizing, this is something that makes you think we need to do something about this, this needs to be solved and loads of people on screen saying there is a way of solving this. It is not a terrible insurmountable.

What are those ways? Watch the documentary, go to the website, search that title. There's literally entire pages of stuff that absolutely anyone can do. And what the doc does is it says to you, here's where you go, here are the places to get involved, here are the organizations that are doing stuff that's useful. But one of the most simple things is, you have somebody who's experienced homelessness

who says, I just want people to see me, to not walk past me and not pretend like I don't exist. And actually, one thing was, I mean, it's kind of slightly shaming and humbling. I realize watching the film, I've done exactly that, that I have walked past people in the street and I haven't acknowledged them. And it was just hearing somebody say, you know, I'm here every day, I do this every day, this happens to me every day. And one of the things I find really hard is people just kind of pretending that I'm not here.

So there are like, from like really simple things about the way in which you interact with people. There's this lovely story about a guy there, and he was in the worst possible state. And somebody just came and sat down by him and started talking to him. And he says this, this experience of somebody just talking to him like he was a person experiencing homelessness rather than a homeless person. He didn't make you want to give money to someone in the, you know, if you see someone who appears to be homeless

on the street or did it make you think, no, I don't want to do that, but I do want to give some money to charity. Well, a lot of it is that there's big issue stuff. So obviously in terms of like sensible giving, there is, you know, the big issue stuff is very much part of it. And there is also the larger thing,

which is that actually there is a kind of, there is a governmental crisis in how this is dealt with. And it needs to be dealt with at a larger level, but there was nothing in it at all that said, no, it makes you want to just go, oh no, I'm not going to do any of that, because obviously the big issue is a fine thing. So I thought, and the other thing that documentary says is there is a huge untapped potential in this army of people who are experiencing homelessness, huge potential amongst them, if only we could find

some way of actually harnessing it. Anyway, I thought it was great. I mean, I confess that I went into it with a slightly heavy heart thinking, okay, fine, this is going to be a documentary about people having a really, really hard time. I came out of it thinking, I'm really glad to have met these people.

I think that Lorna Tucker did a brilliant job, and I do think the key to that is that she has her own first-hand experience of it. I mean this sounds like a stupid comparison but I have a friend called Matt O'Casey who's a documentary maker and he's a musician and he makes better music documentaries than almost anyone else and the reason is because he's a musician. So when they when people talk to him they realize that they can talk to him about the music because he'll understand it. And I know that sounds like a crass comparison, but I think that people talking to a director or a director recording the experience of homelessness, who has themselves experienced homelessness, fundamentally changes the approach to the film.

Anyway, I thought it was great. I think she's a great filmmaker. It's called Someone's Door to Someone's Son. Cinematic release. Cinematic release and definitely worth seeing because you will come out of it. Anyway, I thought it was great. I think she's a great filmmaker. It's called Someone's Door to Someone's Son. So you get jobs. Cinematic release. Cinematic release and definitely worth seeing because you will come out of it feeling energized. And as I said, there's websites, places to go, search the film's title, you'll find stuff. Still to come, exciting reviews of?

Bob Marley One Love, which is a biopic, as opposed to a biopic of Bob Marley and The Taste of Things. And also, yes, Michael Winterbottom is going to be talking to us very shortly about Shoshana, which is his new film. And now Wise, Wise Words, in which Mark and I, in alternating weeks, have to guess the artist's and terrible song during the break in the key. But you see, I'm not sure that's what I said, terrible song. Sometimes it's a really good song. It just has not in this case. Oh, okay. It just has some Not in this case. Oh, okay.

It just has some rubbish lyrics in there. Cause there are, as we've said before, there are some good songs with poor lyrics. Yeah. This is a poor song with poor lyrics. All right. You ready? And can I just say, if you know it,

can you just wait until after the break? I'm gonna blurt it out immediately. No, can you not do that? Okay, wait. All right. And I don't hate you. It's not what I mean. I mean, it's not what it seems.

I just keep living for dreams and it's not what I mean. Hmm. Mark, doesn't it seem like everyone is either starting a side hustle or becoming their own boss? Well, now that you've mentioned it, yes, it does seem like that, Simon. And you know what they're hearing a lot? Why, it's the sound of a cash register doing that kaching noise. In other words, it's the sound of another sale on Shopify, the all-in-one commerce platform

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Kermode. Really? Yes. Simon and Mark here with another message from our good friends, NordVPN. You know me, Simon. I always love hearing from NordVPN. What do the top guys have to say this time? Well, let's recap on what we know so far, shall we?

Yes, I'd love to. We all know that NordVPN can help you watch your favourite TV shows and films that aren't available in your country. Which is fantastic, obviously, but did you know that NordVPN can also act as your cyber bodyguard? Well, shoot me down. Are you telling me that NordVPN can be the Kevin Costner to my web browsing? That's exactly what I'm telling you. NordVPN's dark web monitor feature scans the dark web

to see if any of your personal information or data has been leaked or stolen and will alert you if any information is found. Wow, at this stage I'm thinking is there anything those guys can't do? So remember NordVPN not only allows you to access TV shows and films not available in your country but also gives you great peace of mind whilst online and to top it off, one NordVPN account can be used across six devices. To grab our huge discount off your NordVPN plan, go to NordVPN.com. Take. Our link will also give you extra months on the two-year

plan. Plus, there's no risk with Nord's 30-day money-back guarantee. The link is in the podcast episode description box. And welcome back, unless you're a vanguard Easter, in which case there's been nothing to welcome you back from. So thanks very much for being... Thanks for just staying there. Okay, so the wise, wise words are again... It's not what I mean. I mean, it's not what it seems. I just keep living for dreams and it's not what I mean. Is it dump his not what it seems. I just keep living for dreams and it's not what I mean. Is it dump his rusty nuts?

No. Toad the wet sprocket. That's a name I haven't heard in a long time. Toad the wet sprocket. No. Camper van Beethoven. Shall I sing it? No, but I honestly don't know.

And then you will do. Okay, I might not. It's not what I mean. I mean it's not what it seems. I just keep living for dreams And it's not what it seems Don't know gonna ride a classic. Oh that one again gonna ride it in an attic. Oh, it's that Adrian go baby. I'm an addict Okay, one of the worst lyrics. Okay. Yeah, that's not good gonna write a classic and I write it in an attic baby, I'm gonna do to say that I don't Worst lyrics ever. That's not good. Gonna write a classic, gonna write it in an attic. Baby, I'm in an attic.

If you'd said that, I'd have known. I didn't know it would have got worse. I come on, that was a good one, wasn't it? Yes, I'm not gonna sing any of mine by the way in future. Ian and Sarah, dear Cardamom and Buns, on Friday the 26th, my wife and I were preparing to fly to Copenhagen to celebrate our birthdays

and to escape for a weekend from what's been, frankly, a pretty dreadful January. We listen to your podcast on our way to the airport at 2.30 in the morning as you can't beat starting a holiday by getting to the airport several hours early. When we do that, you always do, you get somewhere early because you're a pain girl. I always get there early, but I won't do it at 2.30 any more. Anyway, we heard your discussion about the Juno bakery in Copenhagen. We followed up and can honestly say it was a real highlight of the weekend. Just one more bite became the phrase of the day and kicked off a quite magical day. Blow in love, Copenhagen. Even the discovery that their number one tourist attraction is closed in

the winter didn't dampen spirits. We will definitely be back and not for just one more bun. And can you help clear up an argument? It would be helpful. Cardamom or cardamon? Cardamon, isn't it? It isn't. No, I have always said cardamon with an M at the end. I'm afraid it's with an M at the end. I'm going to dilemma about this now. It's exactly that. It comes from the Latin, cardamom. Oh, wow. M's all the way. Oh, hell, wow.

Means Cress and Spice Plant or something like that. But I mean, it may well be that there are some dialect versions which have become cardamom because the language is what the language is. But when you look it up, as I did last night, that's really terrible. It's cardamom. OK.

But thanks for going to the Gino Bakery and I'm so glad it didn't end up. Thanks for recommending the Gino Bakery and it was terrible. Because it is the best. Hetty says, that's a great name. It's the good doctors. Very quick emergency mail

as I've just started the latest episode of the pod and I'm keen to get back to it. I wanted to let you know that the Nordic Bakery, which you mentioned, has its own cookbook. I mean, the Nordic Bakery in Golden Square isn't there anymore. No, but is it part of a chain? Is there a chain of Nordic bakeries?

Was it just cook? Anyway, there's the Nordic bakery cookbook. It's the guide I turn to most often when making pastries, cakes, and other baked goods as the recipes are superb. It is well worth tracking down in order to recreate the incredibly dense and delicious offerings the Nordic bakery used to sell.

I hope this is helpful to any sweet toothed or teased member of the church. Many thanks for the informative and uplifting witterings in challenging times from Hetti, Haphazid Baker. So, okay, so I'm not sure whether it's a chain. I don't know if there are any others, but... But it's definitely not there in Golden Square anymore. It's definitely not there, but obviously the Nordic bakery cookbook, if you can find it, is a jolly fine thing. I think what happened was that Christopher Nolan took all the cakes to create the black hole for Interstellar, because they were so dense.

That is an interesting point. Box Office Top 10 at 65. We're really starting at 65. Yeah, we're starting at 65, which is sort of not many people went to see this at all territory. No, but it was a limited. It happened one night, which is the 90th anniversary. Well, actually, weirdly enough, we're recording this on Valentine's Day. So it's a bit unfair to do it because I imagine that people will go and see it happen one night

because it is released in time for Valentine's Day. So next week I predict that it will be up from 65. 65, the bullet. Yeah, it'll be in a... But it's a great film and it's... I was gonna say if you're listening to this go tonight, but if you're listening to this it's Friday, you already missed it. Did you send Good Lady Ceramacist a card?

Do you give the Good Lady Ceramacist a card? Card flowers and fizz, actually, which isist a card? Card flowers and fizz, actually. Which is a bit excessive. Card flowers and fizz? I know, and the fizz has their name on it. I feel completely trumps. You just did 12 Red Roses. That's a lovely thing.

Well, apparently not. Beth here works in the show, said, didn't you send the card? I said a dozen Red Roses. You went, yeah, but it's not card. I don't think you should feel insecure. I feel very insecure. I mean, after being, you know,

when you've been married for like a thousand years. I think everything is fine. Number 37 is The Settlers. Which is very dark. I mean, it's a very powerful story, powerfully told, but very, but, you know, tough viewing. Occupied City is at 28. Now, this is... Which is pretty good going for a four and a half hour documentary about, you know, the Holocaust. The Nazi occupation of Amsterdam in particular,

Anna Watson in Clapham. First-time listener. First-time listener was drawn in because I saw it mentioned on Twitter that you had an interview with Steve McQueen and Bianca Stidka. I saw Occupied City last Sunday afternoon at Brixton's lovely Ritzy Cinema. I was curious to see it because I visited Amsterdam quite a few times, have Dutch family connections and have read books such as The Cut Out Girl by Bart van Es, which I recommend. But I had also recently read that 80% of Jewish people in the Netherlands were killed during the Nazi occupation, much higher proportion than in most other countries. I absolutely loved the visuals of the film. Blurry lights, reflections, sparkling water, foggy views, but at times the structure felt

a lot like a disjointed list. Some of the candid moments caught on film are wonderful, a grumpy child lying down on an iced over canal, teenagers bantering and giggling, bike crashes, but somehow the camera always seems as dispassionate as the voiceover. It never makes any sudden moves and that stillness, even when filming an environmental rally or a lockdown protest being broken up by police, really serves the whole atmosphere of quiet contemplation. I felt very absorbed in the film, but I think perhaps my attention span is better than usual because I've been at home recovering from Covid for quite a while. Obviously, most people will not set aside the time to see this film.

Given that it sounds like McQueen has plans to place the extended 36 hours in a museum setting, I wonder whether it would have done better to produce an edited two and a half or three hours, which would have got many more people in to see it. It's an amazing work of art, history and geography combined. I really would recommend it to anyone who can find the time to see it. It was one of the questions that I found where I think the conversation started with Steve,

because how did you know what the perfect length is for this film? And he and Bianca both clearly felt, as they said on the program, it is what it is. It is the length that it had to be. Yes. I mean, it was never going to be an easy accessible watch. But I actually think that for a four hour, 20 minute movie,

it has a 15 minute interval built into it. It is weirdly mesmerizing. There is something about the cumulative power of repetition, the absolutely dispassionate tone of the Melony Himes, right, the narration. I think it works and I find it very hard to cut it down. I do look forward to what happens when he did it. Did he say this 36 hours? They went to every address that's in the book. Right, every address, yeah. 2,000 addresses.

That's a monumental project. But it does feel like, as I think we were talking about, it does feel like it could be an art in-cell. Yeah, absolutely. You know, for sure. But a Sunday afternoon at a nice cinema seems like the perfect place. You know, don't go and see it in the evening, obviously,

because it's just way too long. And as you said, make sure that you clear the rest of the day because it will stick with you. Yeah. Number 18 is Gassed Up. No, number 25 is Your Fat Friend, the Jeannie Finley movie, which is really, really great. It's a documentary that I absolutely love. It's definitely here on the thing.

Number 25, Your Fat Friend, Jeannie Finley documentary, go see it. So that's two great documentaries that people can go and see in cinemas. Number 18 is Gassed Up. Which is, you know, it's a British moped crime movie. It's got some style. I think the problem is I did see it shortly after American fiction and it did feel like it was the kind of, it was doing all the cliches that American fiction, you know, was making. Does it have funky moped by Jasper Carrot? It doesn't have funky moped by Jasper Carrot, nor indeed Magic Roundabout on the B side.

I was explaining Jasper Carrot to Child 3. Wow. Who would have liked to have heard that conversation. Yes, absolutely. Well, the bit was... Is it East from Birmingham? No, but there was a whole sequence that he used to do jokes about Irish people. So English, Scotsman and Irish people. And then he says, as part of his routine, this is back in the 70s,

someone took him aside and said, I find you funny, but I find these jokes offensive. And he said, I understand. And he changed his act. He then did exactly the same jokes, but with sun readers as the post line. So there was an Englishman, an Irishman. And a sun reader.

And a sun reader went into the pub. So I'm not sure that sort of gets you out of it necessarily, but that's the way he got out of it, not changing exact at all. But he accepted that he was wrong. Dune is at number 10. So this has been reissued because we are about to have Dune. Is it called Dune Part 2 or Chapter 2? That's Part 2.

Dune Part 2, which I still think of it as Dunk because that's the way the graphics is Dunked. I think it's quite clever the way that, you know, it's just that same, it's the year, what I think it's well done. So we can't say anything about Dune 2 yet because obviously we have seen it and Margot. And I'm talking to Denny Villeneuve and Hans Zimmer shortly and it'll be on the show. There's much to talk about. And there is an awful lot to talk about. But June, you know, June is really, really impressive.

I said at the end of my June review, they've still got a lot of work to do in June part two and June part two does a lot of work. Yes. And if you, if you haven't, I mean, I do recommend going to see it again before the, go and see it at the cinema. It's also on Netflix. So you can watch the whole thing at home and it is worth as a catch-up. Yes.

Just to remember all the... The House of Trades and who they all are. Planet and all like this. Zone... So, number 10 is June. We've done that. OK, but that's back in the top 10. Number nine is The Zone of Interest. Which is the Jonathan Glazer film. Again, another film dealing with the Holocaust.

In the same way that Steve McQueen's film shows you visuals from the present day but you hear the accounts of the past so it's kind of like looking to one side. Zone of interest is this extraordinary drama that's taking place literally side by side of the Holocaust which is what makes it so powerful and so shocking, terrific performance by Sandra Hula, who of course was also so great in Anatomy of a Fall. The film won quite a few awards at the Critics Circle Awards and rightly so,

extraordinary sound and music, providing like the movie that's happening off-screen. You hear the horror through the sound design and through the music. And what you see is this horrendous domesticity. And there was a wonderful email last week explaining, I think, those weird sort of nighttime sequences. Yes.

Which really gave them context. Yes, absolutely, it did. And Jessica in Brighton picks up on that. We were lucky enough to see a preview screening of Zone of Interest followed by Q&A with Jonathan Glazer at the Curson Soho, hosted by the Vina Holocaust Library, of which Glazer is a trustee.

Talking about the remarkable scenes of the girl burying apples, which is the bit we're talking about. Glazer said the thermal imaging was initially just a solution to a technical problem. He resolved to shoot the whole film with only natural and available light, but that obviously wasn't going to work in the pitch black. The thermal imaging was the perfect solution, not least because it's so shocking when we first see it. It adds another unsettling layer to an already deeply unsettling film. Those scenes also wind up representing a kind

of inverse in every respect to everything else that we see in the zone of interest. The Girl Hiding Apples is quite literally the one source of light and warmth in the film and the one source of hope. Yes, which is exactly right. So that's at number nine, number 14 in the States. Eight here. Four in America is Wonka. Soon to be seen on Dunk. I do wonder if there's a little part of Dini Vilnerv that wishes that Dune Part Two had come out before everyone's going to get that. Look, it's Wonka. I last saw him with some chocolates and an ice cream.

Anyway, huge hit there. Seven here, seven in the States, anyone but you. I'm afraid I still haven't seen, but I do want to catch up with it because I like to do it. Mean Girls is at six. It's done really well, as I keep saying, if something that was originally designed for... Actually, weirdly enough, I was at the BFI and somebody said that they had taken exception to the tagline was, it's not your mother's Mean Girls,

to which they said, yeah, it is. I'm a mother and it is. Pepper's Cinema Party is at 5. So I didn't know anything about Pepper Cinema Party, so I looked it up and it is one hour and five minutes long and it is described as Pepper celebrates 20 years with 10 new episodes, a three-part wedding special, a mix of animation and live action where Pepper enters the real world, a party bus bonus episode and five single long songs. So it's like a half term special apparently yes, I'm sorry. I didn't I'm sure it's marvelous

All of us strangers is it number four absolutely love it I mean great performances such a beautiful film and there's so many people so personally Uh dear dear bleep and booster. Oh, yeah. Well that bleep and booster. Yes. I'm just trying to see Were they on blue Peter? It was on blue Peter. Yes. Can't see who this is actually from. Kia ora. There you go. Yes, it says it in the first sentence. So why don't I just continue reading. Kia ora from near, near Auckland in New Zealand here. I just think of Kia ora as the Kia ora. No, I think of it as the orange fruit drink. Your projectionist tonight is Eric. That's right, yes.

Leonard Rossiter did the voiceover and it was for Kia Ora, the refreshing fruit drink available in the kiosk. Anyway, I haven't found a reason to contact the show until now and that reason is all of us strangers. I listened to the interview with Andrew Hague and Mark's review, so I was really looking forward to watching the movie, but I wasn't prepared for the impact that it had on me. I've just experienced a major relationship breakup and I lost my parents a long time ago. So aside from the wonderful premise, the brave and powerful performances, especially from the two leads and the texture and tone of the film, it ended up pushing a lot of my

buttons and there were floods of tears. I haven't seen such a beautiful, tender and touching film in a long time. So hats off to all concerned, I just loved it more please. And Kira Oro signs off, love the show Steve, hello to Jason, up with all the good stuff and down with the bad. As you said at the beginning of the pod, I think let's carry on with all of that. Number three here, number 18 in the stage, The Iron Claw. The true life story of a wrestling family dynasty that were, we hear at the beginning from Zach Efron's character that there is a curse on the family and certainly the drama plays out with a lot of tragedy. But it's a very engaging drama.

It's by Sean Durkin, who's a very fine filmmaker. I care not one jot about wrestling, but really the film is about the kind of the emotional battles, the way in which the batterings that you get in the ring are nothing compared to the batterings you get around the kitchen table. Richard Whitehouse in sunny Cornwall, dear Jake the Snake Roberts and Macho Man Randy Savage. Which one is you? I'll be Macho Man Randy Savage. We went to an early screening of the Iron Clarem weirdly earlier in the day. My Facebook informed me that it was exactly

15 years ago to the day since I saw The Wrestler at the pictures. However, whilst both films are set in the arena of sports entertainment, as it is known, they are hardly comparable. I was unaware of the story of the Von Erich family. And whilst I found the iron claw engaging and interesting, I was left with the feeling of being shortchanged for what was an emotional story of family relationship. Zac Efron was impressive as Kevin, or they're resembling the Hulk

if he spent too much time in a tanning salon. And it seemed right that he was at the heart of the movie but with so many other complex characters in this story I wanted to know more about them. The always dependable Maura Tierney was great in the short screen time that she got and I felt there was much more about her character that we were not being shown. Likewise the relationship between Kevin and his wife Pam seemed to be marginalised with the focus maybe too much on Efron's character. The wrestling scenes were great, far glossier than the original grapples would have been, and the movie had just enough emotional

heft to make you care for the characters. But it didn't have the impact for me that the wrestler had 15 years previously. Okay, I think I liked it more than you, but it's an interesting response, so thank you for the email. Mad King Jay says the iron claw is utterly miserable to watch but it's captivating, something you don't need to be a fan of wrestling to enjoy wonderful performances all around which make the family dynamic even more believable. Yes and I think the phrase the iron claw it's the signature move of the father but it's also obviously a metaphor for the iron claw in which the family are trapped. Number two is Argyle. Sandra says... Please tell me that there is an email from somebody who liked Argyle and it is not just me and Matthew who liked it.

A lovely listening tour, your reviews and interviews. My daughter had one of Mark's reviews recently and said, does he ever like the films he reviews? I answered, he's talking about Aquaman, her reply, fair point. I was pleased to hear Mark enjoyed our girl last week. I thought it was great fun and totally silly. I heard Matthew say that he, as in Matthew Vorne, I imagine say that he made the film suitable for his teenage kids to watch, which is why there isn't any swearing in it

and presumably why the whole thing is much better than Kingsman. BDH was great, Bryce Dallas Howard, even though that totally inappropriate dress gave me flashbacks to running around chasing dinosaurs in high heels and white jeans and that t-shirt in Jurassic Park would still annoys me. Henry Cavill and Sam Rockwell looked like they were really enjoying themselves. I had a Jason up with Tracy Chapman and down with Trump. I did think the Tracy Chapman duet at the Grammys was fantastic. It was brilliant, wasn't it? I want to say, and since we're

saying this, well done to Taylor Swift for winning the Super Bowl. And annoying everybody. Yeah. Just to do this quickly, Sam in Oxford went to see our guy a few weeks ago at a preview at The View in Leicester Square. Everyone was excited to be there, to see Matthew Vaughn do a Q&A afterwards.

Everyone had a great time, was laughter and gasps throughout, and I enjoyed the film thoroughly. I was disappointed at the general critical reaction, but was pleased to see my favourite film critic at least had enjoyed it. I decided to take a friend to see the film a few days ago and with the film having been out for a while the cinema was nearly empty. Then right from the opening credits two separate groups of people in the cinema started to loudly heckle and laugh at the film. Every line of dialogue, every plot twist, pretty much every moment of the film that wasn't meant to be laughed at.

I believe they were just looking for a way to waste the Sunday afternoon, saw the film's rotten tomato score and decided to come and ruin the experience for everyone else. When you're in the cinema and everyone laughs at a joke, you do too, even if you wouldn't have. Normally it's one of the magical things about cinema.

The same effect occurs when someone comes specifically to make fun of a film. It makes the rest of the audience pain to be there, feel that the film is bad or not worth their time as well and this ruins the experience for everyone else. We ended up leaving the cinema halfway through because of these sad individuals. I'm really sorry about that. That's really unfortunate. Although I should say that I've said before you can be in a in a previous screening and although critics wouldn't do that, they wouldn't heckle the film, you can be in a preview screening, and although critics wouldn't do that, they wouldn't heckle the film,

you can feel a room turning against a film. And if it's a comedy particularly, and the room turns against it, it does stop the film being funny. It's really peculiar. Number one here, five in the States is migration. Which, you know, it's, I think that the Minion Short, which Moond I think is the best thing,

but migration is perfectly good fun. We had a lovely email last week that I thought about quite a lot from a parent who had taken their child to see it and that they thought that the film had done its job because at one point of extreme duck peril, the child had said, I don't like it and I want to leave. And the parent had said, fine, we'll leave. And that is very fine cinema parenting,

knowing that there may be a time that doesn't mean the movie was bad. It means just they need to leave now. But just so you know, if you do want to go back and see it again, I don't think this is a plot spoiler. Close your ears if you don't want. The ducks are all fine.

The ducks are not alloranged. Though I have just done an ad for Gressing in Duck. I wasn't here. I'm sure that's going to be okay. Our special guest is Michael Winterbottom. You'll hear him after this. This episode is brought to you by Mubi, a curated streaming service dedicated to elevating great cinema from around the globe. From iconic directors to emerging auteurs, there is always something new to discover. And here's some exciting MUBI related news. Yes, well on the subject of iconic directors, Perfect Days is in UK cinemas on February 23rd from MUBI.

This is the highly anticipated Return to Fiction feature film making from Vin Vin Vendors who made Paris Texas and Wings of Desire which I know you absolutely love so that is something to look forward to. Also on MUBI in the UK is the series First Films First. A director's first film can provide the roadmap for an entire oeuvre. Our series of directorial debuts revisits the films that launched the careers of some of cinema's finest auteurs. Including Justin Trayette, who made the film which you absolutely loved, An Idea 2, An Atomy of a Fall, Age of Panic, and of course Reservoir Dogs by an unknown director who went on to make some other things as well.

Never heard of him. You can try MUBI for 30 days at MUBI.com slash Kermit and Mayo. That's MUBI.com slash Kermit and Mayo for That's M-U-B-I dot com slash Kermit and Mayo for a whole month of great cinema for free. Hello, takers. It's Ben Bailey-Smith here, subteacher of The Take, and this episode is brought to you by Bear Help. Now, something we often forget is that relationships are not always easy going. I mean, we know that, but we often think that if they aren't easy, then they aren't right. But of course, that's not always the case. Relationships work when both people bring as much as they can to the table. And

that could be colleagues, friends, or of course, significant others. And therapy can be a really positive place to work through those challenges. Now I've used better help. And it's helped me do exactly that set boundaries, be the best version of myself I can be and be better in my relationships. It's a great option because it's totally online, it's convenient, it's flexible, it suits a busy schedule. So if you're thinking of starting therapy, trust me, give BetterHelp a try. They've got access to thousands of UK mental health professionals with a wide variety of expertise and no referral needed. And check this out, our listeners get 10% of their first month at betterhelp.com slash Ker mode. That's better H-E-L-P.com.com.

Now, our guest today is the director Michael Winterbottom, his new film Shoshanna. You'll hear all about in just a moment. Set in Palestine during the 30s. He's the man, but of course behind. Welcome to Sarajevo, 24-hour party people, greed, many more films. He's the creator of The Trip with Steve Coogan and Rob Briden. Anyway, my conversation with Michael Winterbottom after this clip from Shoshana. Hello. Hello. How was it? Bad. Why? What happened? He chose Morton to replace Rals. He knows nothing about Tel Aviv.

Why do they choose him over you? I don't know. You know everyone. Well, maybe that's the problem. They want someone who knows no one and knows nothing. Are you planning on getting very drunk? Yes. And that's a clip from Shoshana. I'm delighted to say that it's director and co-writer, Michael Winterbottom, is with us

in the studio. Hello, Michael, how are you? Good. Thanks. It's very nice to see you. This film has been a long time coming. Introduce us to Shoshana, who she is and what your film is. It's a true story. Yeah, we've been thinking about making it for a long time.

Maybe about 15 years. I was in Jerusalem, the Jerusalem Film Festival, and I read a book there called One Passed Line Complete, which is about the time when Britain was the occupying power in Palestine. And this story didn't really come from that, but we started doing research. And the story of Shashana Boroughoff, she was the daughter of a very famous socialist Zionist called Bear Boroughoff. And it's the story of her and Tom Wilkin, who was a police officer in the British

Palestine Police Force. And basically, Tom Wilkin is chasing, amongst other people, a guy called Avraham Stern. Avraham Stern was on the right of politics and was one of a small minority who believed that violence was necessary to build Israel. So really it's about the way in which that violence, the gradually escalating violence impacts the relationship between Tom Wilkin and Trishanna. Because it is an edit's heart, it's a love story. Yeah, exactly. We did quite a lot of research for a few years and looking around for stories, but this is a very simple story.

It's a love story. It's a classic story, really, two people from different communities. A Romeo and Juliet kind of love. Yes, in a way, the story starts in 1938. So it's about the way, from that point on, their relationship is impacted by the violence that Tom is also kind of policing. You start with some, like, some newsreelel footage which is very useful because you set it up and I suspect most people who go and see it will go,

oh really, I didn't know that. So you fill us in as to what the general political situation is, the geopolitical situation is. Then you introduce to Shoshana and Tom, how much of their story is true and how much of you fictionalize? We've stuck to the story, the facts of the story. So yeah, I mean, the beginning is just

to give a bit of context. I should say it's only a couple of minutes. And the archive, I love the archive. One of the first things we did was go and visit all the archives. And there's amazing footage from that time and place. So we have like two, three minutes at archive. And then we get into our story. And everything to do, all the facts that we could find,

we stuck to those facts. But obviously, if you're doing a love story, you're also trying to imagine the texture of the relationship, imagine exactly what each finds interesting or attractive about the other. And for me, the story is one where Tom Wilkin is in love with Shoshana. Obviously, there's a personal attraction,

but also I think he's kind of in love with the culture of Tel Aviv. It's a kind of brand new city. It's very political. Most people there are first generation immigrants who've come from various parts of Northern Europe to sort of build this country they wanna build. And I think he's attracted to her strength

and her intelligence, her independence. So the story is one always where the question, if there's a question there about this, will he go along with her? She is the dominant force in their relationship. Tel Aviv does come over, I know you weren't filming in Tel Aviv, but it does come over as a very exciting, pulsating,

and there's lots of live music and there's close ups of jazz musicians, and they're on the beach and it looks fantastic. Yeah, I think, we originally thought we might film in the real Tel Aviv, but that real Tel Aviv now is a massive high-rise city and we realized quite quickly that wasn't possible. In the end we filmed in Puglia in South Italy, which was a great match. And one of the reasons we have the archive is so you can see the archive and see what

Tel Aviv really looked like in the 1930s, and then you can see what we've sort of done to recreate it. I did want that sense of a city that was a young city. Most people were very young. A city that was obviously full of energy, very dynamic. But as I say, a city where it's a very egalitarian city, probably a very left-wing city, back in Python to almost anywhere else in the world, really. And so I wanted to try and capture that. I have to say it's quite difficult to capture that in a period of film. If you go out today in London, you can shoot

everywhere and you can get that energy. But obviously when you're trying to recreate that energy in a period of film, it's hard, but I hope we achieved it to a certain extent. Yeah, I wonder, first of all, I wonder if people might go expecting more than you want to tell them. This is a specific story set in a particular time in the Middle East, and it's a love story between a British policeman and a Jewish woman. That's what it is, and obviously it spills out from there. But one of the things that occurred to me was as we follow Shashana is that she kind of represents a left-wing socialist Israel

Which has sort of disappeared it's sort of gone as Israel has moved to the right The her kind of vision of Israel seems to have diminished. Yeah, I think that's right We read a lot of first-hand accounts, you know appeals experiences there and on on keynotes and in the various different kind of political groups. And it was a very kind of egalitarian place, very sort of very left-leaning place. And Shoshana represents that standard. Shoshana and all her comrades represent the mainstream

opinion, which was in favor of a kind of political dialogue with the British to try and achieve what the country they wanted to build. There's only a very small group that were on the right who are the followers of Abraham Stern. And as you say, obviously, you look at Israel now. The's only a very small group that were on the right who were the followers of Abraham Stern and as you say obviously you look at Israel now that the group that was a small group has become the dominant group. It's a complex and complicated story and you introduce us to as you mentioned

already Sterngang, Ergun and Shoshane is a member of a group I hadn't heard of before called Haganah. Do we need to know about these groups or are you happy to tell us in the film? I think, I don't, I don't, I, you say the story, the central story is a love story. So what I think what attracted me to the real story and once you have a real story you have to respect what, what is there, but what attracted me to their story is that you could see through their relationship the, the pressures that were brought to bear on, on them. You could see through their relationship the impact of political violence. Yeah, I think in a way that in the end there's stories like looking at the

way in which escalating violence, political violence, gradually tries to force people apart to drive a wedge between people. And I kind of feel that you can see that in their story. So it seemed to me it wasn't really like well we'll have a little bit of a love story and then we'll have the political story but that you could see the impact of politics on their own personal story. Is one of the reasons why it took so long to make the film, because you said at the beginning of our conversation, it took a long time, is that people said,

you must be mad. Really? You want to make a story about Israel and Palestine? Well, yes, that is probably one of the reasons. I mean, when you're trying to make a film, we had like three or four efforts where we got quite close, I think, before this one, or including this one, perhaps, the fourth. It's always a bit potluck. It's easy to think to make a phone, we had like three or four efforts where we got quite close I think before this one or including this one perhaps the fourth.

It's always a bit potluck. It's easy to think there's a reason. So it could be the reason is, the reason could be it's a per-period film, the reason could be it's about political violence, the reason could be it's set in Palestine, in Tel Aviv. It's always hard to know. But I think perhaps one reason why we finally got it made is that it kind of looks at the way in which the polarization of politics into sort of two camps where that if you disagree with someone, they're your enemy. That's kind of really the sort of the field it's working in, the sort of area it's looking

at. And I guess that's more relevant now than it was 15 years ago. And perhaps people are more aware here and elsewhere that politics can be very polarized and people can just sort of shout at you if they don't agree with you. And your UK premiere at the BFI was on October the 7th. Yep. One of the most fateful days in Israeli history. Did you think at the time maybe we shouldn't go ahead

with it just because it was so, and you had Israeli actors and Jewish actors, was there any kind of, really, can we go see a film? The news was coming out sort of as, as you know, I guess as the screening was sort of happening almost, yeah. So we had, as you say, we had, I think, three, three maybe of our Israeli actors have come over to be at the screening and obviously it's difficult. We were due to be released that month in Israel that got delayed until it's just come out.

It was due to be released that month in Italy, which is still delayed. So I can completely understand that people kind of think, is this the right time? As I say, the theme of it is about the way in which political violence can destroy people's lives. So in a sense, that in this context, that's even more relevant, but both what's happened in Israel on that day and also what's happened in Gaza since. Yeah. Well, you mentioned Gaza. You co-directed a documentary in Gaza called 11 Days in May, Kate Winslet was the narrator. So you're kind of no stranger to the politics here? Yeah, it's not about the politics thing. I think it's probably about just the way in which people's lives are impacted and in that case destroyed by violence. It was a very, very simple film,

it was made with Mohamed Sawa for a Palestinian director who lives in Gaza. And it just looked, it was about the bombs in 2021. So it was just a memorial, really, for the children who were killed during those 11 days. And it was more than 60 children were killed. And it's really just very, very simple photographic record of those children and their families talking about the love they have for their children, the grief they have for their children. You might need to make another one of those. Yeah, well, I mean, obviously what's happening now is terrible.

You know, today I think the latest figures are 12,000 children have been killed. You know, at the time we made that two years ago, the fact that 60 children have been killed seemed terrible. Now you'd need to do the same sort of film. Now you'd need 200 films like the film we made. Tell us about Irina Starshan Brown. Have I got that right? Starshan Brown, yeah.

Starshan Brown, who is Arash Hashanah, who is fantastic. I don't think I've seen her in anything before. Where did you find her? Well, we were sort of looking for, you know, it's Hashanah's family, it's a Russian family, and we're looking for someone Russian speaking, Jewish. I came across Irina in a film that was at Cannabat four or five years ago called Leto in Russian summer

in English, and then really just zoomed her her and she was really intelligent about the script, really passionate about the subject matter and Shoshana. I just thought she'd be a really good choice. And then she came out to Italy, a quite bit of time before we started filming. So we had quite a bit of time to prepare and she didn't speak Hebrew. So she invested a massive amount of time and effort. So she learned Hebrew for your film?

Yeah, because obviously it's tricky doing that. But it's like some cases that almost everyone who came to Palestine in those years had to learn Hebrew when they arrived because no one really spoke Hebrew in Europe. So the vast majority of people in Tel Aviv at the time would have learned Hebrew as a second language sort of later on in life. So it kind of felt like we just had just enough room to maneuver on that. I know all the Israeli actors said she was amazing. She did an amazing job with it.

Ian Hart, who you've worked with before, I think he's placed the kind of established British diplomat, Robert Chambers, and Harry Melling as Jeffrey Morton. Who is terrific, isn't he? He's great. I mean, you want to punch him. Well, it's interesting about that because, you know,

as you sort of said, we have lots of very different opposing points of view in the film. We have Abraham Stern, who believed violence was necessary to build Israel. We have Shoshana, who was on the other side of the argument, you know, wanted political solutions. We have Jeffrey Morton, who was like very sort of traditional British point of view of like, we're here as the occupying power and we should need to enforce our law. And we showed it to the relatives of all three of those people, the surviving

relatives of those three people. And they all thought we'd done a pretty fair job of representing them. So, you know, I think with Jeffrey Morton, it's like, yes, he is pretty brutal as the British were, as almost any occupying force is prison. But I guess, you know, from his point of view, he wanted to deal with everyone in the even handy way. And were you nervous about their reaction? Yeah, of course. Yeah. Because you would imagine Jeffreyrey Morton's family particularly might be thinking,

we're not gonna come out of this very well. Well, yeah, one of the sources we have was Geoffrey Morton's autobiography. So, you know, there's a strand of the story going to about why he's accused of killing someone, like essentially accused of murdering someone. So we have his account. So in the film, we tried to, you know,

there's two opposing accounts of what happened. So in the film, we tried to, you know, there's two opposing accounts of what happened. So in the film, we were able to show up to a certain point that people have to make their own mind upon that. There's a line in your film, Michael, I think it's over a meal with Shoshanna, where somebody says, sometimes it's hard to know who's the spider and who's the fly.

And I think that's a pretty neat way of summing up the film because there are so many webs and so many spiders and so many flies, you know, who's after whom? Yeah, I mean, that's in the context of Shoshana's relationship with Tom Wilkner. Is that your line? Probably, I don't know. Well, as you said, I was a co-writer.

I was a co-writer. Yes, but that's right. As I was wondering if in your co-writing, whether that's what you came up with. That was a collaboration, you can't divide out. But I mean, yeah, I think the idea is, obviously when you have two different groups trying to achieve what they want,

it's like Tom, and this is taken from real accounts, Tom was accused of not doing his job by allowing people in the Haganah, which was also technically an underground kind of Jewish group, was not policing them and was only policing the right wing groups because of his relationship with Shoshana. So, yeah, it's a complex situation. I think with a film for me, you're trying to be true to the complexity of real events.

So we do a lot of films about real stories. And for me, it's not trying to simplify it down to this is the right good guy and the bad guy or the right thing or the wrong thing. It's more to try and show it as, to try and imagine the story from their point of view and try and show it in It's complexity. Have you got any other films that been you've been waiting to make for this amount of time? Is there anything else that you've got on the back burner that we should know about? No, nothing that's been that long So we are trying to make another film at the moment but as we always are but it's we've only been thinking about that for a year or two

Just the year or two. Yeah, is it more difficult to finance This this new idea that you've got than it would have been 10 years ago or easier? I think as a director it's potluck because when you make a film it takes a year of your life. So as long as one person says yes, then it's fine, it seems easy. So you can't really say like with this film, we've been waiting on time, then suddenly it happens. You can't really say whether it's overall getting harder. You just got to like just keep asking until someone says yes.

Michael Winterbottom, thank you very much indeed. Thank you. See you in 15 years. Yeah, exactly. Thank you. Thank you. Hopefully it won't be quite so long. Nice to speak to him.

And now Shoshana comes out next week. Yes, exactly. We'll review it next week, although I have seen it. And it was fascinating. I think it's a really terrific interview. Partly because as you were saying, I mean, there was a lot of this, there's a lot of the story in that

that I didn't know about at all. I think everyone will go along with it and come out thinking, yes, I agree with that. And when you said specifically, do you have to know about these things? And he said, well, it's a love story. That's the thing that draws you in. I think the rest of it is explained enough

that even if you knew next to nothing, you would understand what was going on. And even if you think you know the basics, which I thought I did, you'll learn stuff that you didn't know. And as he kept saying, and at the heart of it is a love story as well. So Shashana will be reviewed on next week's program. And when you see it, it will be very interesting to know your take on it. Correspondents at www.Kerberdemo.com. What else is out?

Bob Marley, one love, which is the biopic, as opposed to the biopic of Bob Marley from director and Alder Marcus Green, who made the 2021 biopic King Richard, for which Will Smith won the Best Actor Oscar after the altercation on stage at the Academy Awards. He's also one of the, the director is also one of the four co-writers of the screenplay. So, Kingsley Benadir, who was Malcolm X in One Night in Miami is Marley, who we meet preparing to do a peace concert

in Jamaica, a concert that will bring together opposing powers. How did he get here? So the film then essentially unfolds in flashback, jumping back and forth between Marley leaving the violence he's experienced in Jamaica, arriving in London in the 70s to record Exodus. His time as an up...

He's been tough to people. Exactly. His time as an upcoming reggae star in Jamaica, meeting Rita, starting his journey, and then these semi-halucinatory flashbacks to his young childhood, abandoned by his white father, dreaming of fiery fields out of which comes a man on a horse, which is a kind of vision which comes to mean different things at different times in the film. Let's have a look at a bit of the trailer. Redemption songs.

When you write that? All my life. APPLAUSE Are you ready for Bob Marley and the Wailers? MUSIC Don't let them fool you. That's a hint. From Marley and the Wiggins! It's a hit! Reggae is the people of music. You know you're a superstar. I am a superstar.

You can't separate the music and the message. You see, reggae music, coming for you and the fire of people see, reggae music comes for you and a fad of people. Not everyone likes what you're saying. For your own safety, you need to stop. So, it gives you a flavour. And they're using the original tracks by the Saturday? Yes, although actually the way in which the music is blended in with the film stuff is

actually very adventurous and they do do some. I often have that thing about the voice of the character in the film and the voices that we hear in terms of the songs. It is adventurous, and that's one of the areas in which actually I think the film scores big. Some of it is very very on the nose. When they arrive in London, they arrive in London, the Clash of Plain of Geek, they're right and there are coppers with trunctions going, oh you layabouts, what are you doing here? Come over here so I may strike you about the head because I am a cop. So there is a lot of it that is There is a lot of it that is like that. The producers of the film include Reeter, Stela and Ziggy Marley. So it's very, very authorised and it is hagiographic.

I mean, yes, we hear that he possibly wasn't the greatest husband ever, but we hear it in order for it to be raised and then dismissed and put out of the way pretty quickly. I was thinking when I was watching it You'll remember that we reviewed Kevin Mali's Kevin Mali Kevin McDonald's documentary Mali from 2012 And I went back to my review of that film because I had liked that And I said at the time perhaps the most moving thing about the film are the memories of Marley's daughter, Sadella, who talks eloquently of her father's home life shortcomings. At one point, he is seen un-gallantly denying his marriage on television, while still remaining fiercely loyal to his legacy. And of course, that was a documentary project that was rich.

I think Mark Scorsese was involved and Jonathan Demme was involved. But I thought McDonald did a good job of telling a story of a complex character. The character is not complex here. The character here is really very heroic and very admirable. Of course, I understand why. I think the issue with that is it means that the documentary has a bland, the feature film has a blandness at its heart that I actually don't think was part of the story. When you watch that documentary, it's like, okay, what's interesting is all the conflicting elements.

And I think there's a mistake to think that in order to admire somebody, you have to think that they were pretty great all around. The story is more interesting if they're not pretty great all around. I mean, there are times in the recording studio that I was very much reminded of, you remember Bohemian Rhapsody. I enjoyed Bohemian Rhapsody, it's good fun, but it has got some very, very kind of cheesy moments in which, you know, boom, boom, yeah,

I'm trying to write a song for the crowd to play. So we get a kind of replay at that. And at times I thought this was like Jamaican Rhapsody. That was the sort of, you have the same sort of feel to it. On the plus side, the integration of the music and the drama, I think he's very well done. I think, whether it's a huge concert scene of them doing No Woman, No Cry or sitting on a porch singing

Redemption, or Freedom songs, Redemption song. It is Redemption song, yeah. They all seem to be of a piece. The music does appear to come out of the drama. And that, I think, I mean, I've seen so many pop biopics in which the music and the drama seem to be existing in different worlds, and that is not the case here. And so it's to do with, you know, re-recordings and remixings and different versions of things, using a whole bunch of different techniques to make sure that the music feels like it is of a piece. And then the performances. The performances are great. Kingsie Bernadier I think gets

Mali's gate really well when you see him on stage because Mali had a very particular way of moving on stage, a very particular way of standing. You see all the kind of the stills of him and you recognize him from silhouette. But it's not just to do with the outline of his hair and his body, it's to do with the way he moves. And I do think that Kingsie Bandit gets that. LaShana Lynch absolutely steals the show as Rita. She, I mean, she's kind of the way the film presents it. She's the moral heart of the story. She's the driving force. She's the person who leads Marley to discover himself. She's a person who essentially lays the road before him and then walks that road with him.

And also she's such a fantastic screen presence anyway. It's every minute that she's on screen, you're just, you're looking at her. And then, you know, James Norton has as fun as Chris Blackwell in that kind of, he's in the studio going, yes, I think this is an absolute hit. And then there's a couple of kind of, you know, comedic moments about the cover of Exodus,

saying, well, it just looks like a poster for a movie. So I thought it was fine. I kind of, you know, and I love the music and, but what it doesn't have is any of the ragged edges that actually, because the thing about Bob Marley's story is it's not bland, it's full of contradictions. It's full of things that, you know, jagged edges that mess up against each other. And this isn't. This kind of starts in very reverential form and then it proceeds to stay in that reverential form for the rest of, which is perfectly fine, but it's no more than fine. I know the film's got some very sniffy reviews. And I think they're perhaps more sniffy than it needs to be.

If you, you know, it's a perfectly entertaining watch with some absolutely dynamite music, but there is no rough edges to it at all. It is the ads in a minute, Mark. But first of all, let us step with joy and gay abandon into our laughter lift. Lift. Lift.

Lift. Lift. Well, now two big occasions this week, Mark. First pancake day, then Valentine's Day. So to impress the good ladies' ceramicist's door, I thought I'd give the two days a French theme. I made some pancakes, bought her a savoury tart, tried to demonstrate my affection with physical contact.

Unfortunately, she said the hug and the quiche were totally crap. Okay. Not bad, Bill. Not bad. Turns out the good ladies... I'm good, but not bad. Doesn't even like pancakes. She can't actually stand the sight of them. Whereas I love them all, covered in sweet liquid, so I had to hide in another room to eat them syriptitiously. Yeah, that wasn't good. Syrup. No, I know I got it, but it wasn't good. hide in another room to eat them syriptitiously. Yeah, that wasn't good. Syrup. No, I know, I got it, but it wasn't good. Anyway, then it was Valentine's Day,

and all that romance in the air got me wondering why melons aren't allowed to get married in churches. Do you know that? No. It's because they can't a loop. Oh, can't a loop, okay, fine, fine, fine, fine. Yeah, can't a loop. Yeah, you, fine, fine, fine, fine. Yeah, can't-a-loop. Yeah, you've not got it.

Yeah, yeah. Okay. So, the syreptitiously and can't-a-loop were terrible. And totally crap, in fact. But that we were totally crap. Back after this, unless you're a van-god-easter, in which case we have just one question. Which country's currency mostly exists outside its own borders? Answer in a moment. All the time. Kraken. See what crypto can be. Not investment advice.

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Offer ends March 29, 2024. Conditions apply. Start with RBC Direct Investing today. So the question that we asked you, which countries currently mostly exists outside its own borders? The answer is... Hang on, hang on, hang on. Can I have a guess? If you wish. Okay, so it's not going to be Russia because that's the whole point, isn't it? That's the whole point about getting the thing.

So it has to be, is it the UK? The answer is the United States of America. Nearly two-thirds of the value of all US currency in circulation is outside of the US. There are currently $2.27 trillion dollars in circulation. Okay, wow. Actually, yes, of course, I put you if I had any brain I would have thought that. Just on the Valentine's Day thing, dear Dorothy and Wayne Lyon, I'm a medium term listener, third time emailer, UK expat, Auckland, New Zealand. I'm someone who's

quite happy to go to the cinema alone. This is a lovely story, like this. If I'm at a loose end, or if it's a quirky film and I can't persuade a friend to join me. Some people seem to think that it's a Steve No-Mate situation, but it's more about Stevie having varied viewing tastes, to be honest. Apart from this, my very lovely local little cinema,

The Bridgeway on Auckland's North Shore, it actually has four screens, but one was once a three-chair hair salon. Three-chair hair salon. As opposed to a three-hair chair salon. A chair. Anyway, it feels homely. Only two steps removed from my own sofa. Anyway, about seven years ago I rocked up on a Monday night, cheaper, but not much, and was told by the manager

that the projectionist was having to reboot the system and that I was as I was the only one in that session if I took a seat outside he would bring me a glass of salve which I imagine is so vignan and give me a shout because of salve whenever they're ready to roll ten minutes later while sipping and scrolling a petite woman tapped me on the shoulder are you waiting for the movie come on then we're the only people here so they're ready to go in the time it took to finish my wine and walk to the screen together we had chatted enough to make it seem rude to sit apart in our ticketed seats one much nearer the front than the other we compromised and sat midway back dead center

more chat while the local cafe and real estate agents stiltedly read their scripts and told us what fabulous services they provided the movie was Live by Night Ben Affleck. Oh yeah, okay. We agreed that we weren't sure if it added much to the gangsta era but it had a good supporting cast. We chatted more as we walked to our respective cast, weirdly identical Subaru station wagons and we said good night. You've probably guessed it. Seven years later we're still together. Fantastic. Because after doing some... And I hadn't guessed it. Seven years later, we're still together. Fantastic. Because after doing some...

And I hadn't guessed it. Very low level Facebook research, I tracked the lovely yoga teacher-in-chief down and invited her to accidentally bump into me again in the bridgeway a few weeks later. And the rest, as they say, is history. P.S. We still go to the movies independently of each other from time to time. She didn't want to see Barbie a second time. Love the pod, down with the usual stuff. What a lovely story that is. Thank you, Steve. Very nice email correspondence at codemo.com.

Tell us about something else that you might want to go and see in your local Auckland three chair hair salon. The taste of things, AKA the passion of Daudine Buffon, AKA the pottafoe. Historical culinary romance drama from Vietnamese-born French film writer and director Tran Anh Hung set in 1885,

taking inspiration from the novel La Vie à la Passion de Daudine Belfin. Gourmet brackets the passionate Epicure by Swiss author Marcel Roof. I think you've just gone through every possible... Literally just wanted to make sure I got everything there and have offended many... Most of Europe.

Many languages. So Benoit Magimelle is Dorembefond, the Gaumont who has dedicated his life to dreaming up culinary magic. Juliet Binosh is Eugenie, who's the cook who works with the gourmet, making his delicious dreamings come true. So she actually, you know, she does the actual work of it. He thinks

the stuff up. The two have been together in the kitchen for years. They are also together in the bedroom, although she resists his many proposals of marriage. So they spend their days making mouthwatering dishes and also teaching the young the wonders of the palate. As in this scene, in which, because you won't hear this and also it's in foreign. It's on France. It's on France, say.

Essentially what he's doing is giving a young person a spoonful of a sauce and saying, tell me what you taste. Okay. and a spoonful of a sauce and saying, tell me what you taste. OK. You know this sauce? No. You can smell what's in there. And as those ingredients are being named, we see flashbacks. So it's mushrooms, ribs, smoked bacon, red bell peppers.

So as they're being named, we see... That's to a kid. She has amazing eyes. Yeah, I know. And an amazing palette, if that part of the story is true, because what's happening is she's, and that scene then goes on. There are many, many more ingredients

that are being identified. Almost the entire movie plays out in the confines of a cooking area. So we begin with a meal being made that is almost in real time. Now, I am, as you know, a pescetarian or as Richard Hawley calls it, a fish and chipocrates. But I'm sitting there watching these meaty dishes

being made and it's just, every part of you is just salivating because the fact is there is something about cooking being captured on film that has some kind of Pavlovian response. I mean, there are many films that have done this, but this does it rather well. Did it make you think I could do some Gressingham Duck tonight? No? You only get paid once for that song. You know how that works.

Anyway, meanwhile, Juliet Binosh has the kind of movie illness that allows you to occasionally faint but look fabulous. Although we know, you know, and the kind of movie is you can say it's nothing and we all know it's not nothing. It's consumption almost. Exactly. So, what's that? No, no, I've just got a bit of it. No, you haven't. You're not going to make it past the third act. So the drama is on the one hand, sort of pushing all those buttons about, look at this food, look at these ingredients, look at the stuff that's going in,

look at the care, look at the presentation, look at the people enjoying them at one point. Actually, what happens is, so all the way through their relationship, and she has cooked for him, and as her situation starts to change, he cooks for her. And he says at at one point may I watch you eat which in any other movie would seem profoundly weird but actually this seems deeply romantic

and of course their romance is expressed through their relationship of cooking at one point she actually says to him you know am I because they're not married because am I your have I been your cook or your wife? And the answer is embedded in the thing of the film. There's a lot of philosophy of food, the fact that the food has to have a narrative, the way in which the flavors come together has to be a narrative to it.

And I'm watching it thinking, yeah, that's all great, although I will literally do a bit of fish, bit of vegetable, bit of thing, bit of sauce, bang. But it's like wine tasting. When I like a glass of wine, but I'm never going to be somebody who can have a sip of something and say, oh yes, I'm getting top notes of Albany and I'm getting wheelbarrows of elephant dung or whatever else it is. That's always what I look for. There's always what you look for. The glass of salve. Wheelbarrows of Elephant Dung.

But you know, I thought it was fine. It was Francis entry for the Oscars. It was shortlisted, which is not a surprise. It is... I say this, my dad would have loved it. My dad would have absolutely loved it because it's about romance expressed through food. And it's about the way in which people don't say things the way which they do.

I mean, I don't think it's a film that's gonna live with me much. I mean, like the thing itself, that the meal was lovely and then it was gone out of my head. But it was done with a relish and it is poignant and you do get to like and know the characters. And I mean, I love you, it'd be noshing absolutely everything anyway.

Were there any slimy CQ cumbas in there? There was no slimy, incidentally, I got a text from Jay Rayner after last week show went out. He went, update, it is worse than Sostroming. Oh, so he's tried Sostroming as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah, he said it is worse. So the absolute definitive thing. That's it. Slimy, salt, salt roasted.

No, I didn't even roast it. No, but it was salted, something, salt fermented, salt fermented CQ cummer is worse than salt. We've got to me, in take two there's some stuff which is taking a little stage further, which might turn your stomach. But anyway, so... Yes. As my punchline now that you're going... Salt fermented sea cucumber is worse than sastroaming, but the taste of things is better. Well, thank heavens for that.

Thank heavens for that. Very good. So more in Take Two by the way, plus more on revolting things to eat. This has been a Sony Music Entertainment production. This week's team, Lily, Gully, Vicki, Zaki, Johnny, Matty, Bethy and producer Mikey Boydale. Mark, what is your film of the week? Well, it won't surprise you to know that my film of the week is the documentary Someone's Daughter, Someone's Son. Take Two is already available. Loads of extra stuff, lots's Son. Take 2 is already available. Loads of extra stir-flux recommendations.

Take 3 will be with you questions and shmesgions. Let us know what you'd like to ask. Write to correspondents at comradamao.com.