Kermode & Mayo’s Take - REESE WITHERSPOON and JENNIFER ANISTON’s Alex and Bradley tackle sexism and false selves on The Morning Show - SHRINK THE BOX

Episode Date: July 16, 2024

Ben and Nemone put Jennifer Aniston and Reese Witherspoon’s The Morning Show characters, Alex and Bradley, on the couch. We ask how a person creates a false self at work, what makes Bradley break the mould and find out how Alex could ever have respect for her male boss in the middle of a #MeToo scandal. Stay tuned for more on false selves in our upcoming episodes on Jackson Lamb and Polly Shelby too! We want to hear about any theories we might have missed, what you’ve thought of the show so far and your character suggestions. Please drop the team an email (which may be part of the show): [e-mail] NEXT CLIENTS ON THE COUCH. Find out how to view here Tasha, Orange is the New Black (season 2) Polly, Peaky Blinders (seasons 1&2) Reginald "Bubbles" Cousins, The Wire (Season 1) Moira Rose, Schitt's Creek (Season 1) Raymond Holt, Brooklyn 99 (selected episodes) Jackson Lamb, Slow Horses (Season 1) CREDITS We used clips from Season 1 of The Morning Show. It’s available to watch on AppleTV+. Starring: Jennifer Aniston as Alexandra "Alex" Levy Reese Witherspoon as Bradley Jackson Billy Crudup as Cory Ellison Mark Duplass as Charlie "Chip" Black Néstor Carbonell as Yanko Flores Karen Pittman as Mia Jordan Gugu Mbatha-Raw as Hannah Shoenfeld Bel Powley as Claire Conway Desean Terry as Daniel Henderson Jack Davenport as Jason Craig Steve Carell as Mitch Kessler Created by: Jay Carson Directed by: David Frankel Lynn Shelton Roxann Dawson Tucker Gates Produced by: Jennifer Aniston Reese Witherspoon Kerry Ehrin Michael Ellenberg Mimi Leder We would love to hear your theories: [e-mail] A Sony Music Entertainment production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts. To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [e-mail]. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Everything to Play For is back with a two-parter to celebrate Olympic Summer Paris 2024 on Mo Farah. Of all of the athletes we could have chosen, why Mo Farah? He's a distance running icon. He did the double-double, 5,000 and 10,000 metre gold at two Olympics. One of those gold medals for him part of Super Saturday, maybe the most famous day in British Olympic history. So, so much to talk about. Follow everything to play for wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, it's Simon and Mark here. This week, Ben and Nimone are putting Alex and Bradley from The Morning Show on the couch.

The presenting pair for The Morning Show are cut from different cloths. Alex is the wise old operator, Bradley the upstart who can't help but speak the truth even if it risks her career. And with that comes a whole lot of psychological complexity. Ben and Emome would love your emails, voice notes and anything else, so check the box at sonymusic.com. Enjoy the show. If you guys want to know more, tune in on Monday for Alex and Bradley's first show. Bradley, can you get Alex and I over here, please? What are you f***ing doing? Well, congratulations Bradley Jackson.

Your life just took off. Don't say anything to anyone and meet me at the studio. Ben Bailey Smith here. And I am the Lamone with taxes here with you too. And we are together again for the podcast where we put your favorite TV characters under the microscope, therapeutically speaking. And Lamone, how you doing? I'm good. I'm good.

I cannot wait to get stuck into this. I'm literally like, like kind of let me add it, let me add it, let me add it. Chomping at the bit. No, champing at the bit. One of those two. Whatever that is. What the bird song was going on in that first clip. That's from the Morning Show and host Alex Levy, Jennifer Aniston has just made a surprise announcement to the press that her new co-host is Bradley Jackson. Relative, certainly newcomer to national TV. It was a power move that no one knew about, no one saw that coming. And you heard Corey Ellison played brilliantly by Billy Crudup, head of news at UBA,

just deciding to go along with it. And reporter Bradley Jackson played by Reese Witherspoon, kind of shocked by the news as well. I found the whole thing kind of shocking, to be honest. You find it shocking? Yeah, in the best possible way. I found this series like compelling from the opening scene. I was surprised to read reviews after I finished the series. I finished it last night. Okay. The first series reviews of it that it was quite, I just thought it would be rave reviews throughout,

you know? Yeah. And there were people who I guess. Wasn't, it was quite mixed. Yeah. As we were speaking before saying it was heavy handed. before, saying it was heavy handed. Yeah, saying it was heavy handed. I didn't think that at all. I get that maybe one or two of the storylines might have had melodramatic endings or whatever, but I don't know. I didn't feel that when I was watching it at all. I totally agree with you. I love this programme. I think you're completely right in terms of... Well, and you and I have spent a bit of time in TV and I've been in broadcasting a few years now and it just seemed to, like you say,

elevate a conversation that feels like it could have been had years ago. The female relationships, the sense of difference in a generational two. Women feeling like could be more open in the present day in which the morning show is set and more honest about their experience. Jennifer Aniston and Reese Witherspoon's performances, I've not seen either actress in those kind of roles with that kind of gravity. Corey and Chip as well and Steve Carell tortured realisation of what he's been involved in perpetrating. And immediately I think we see a real juxtaposition between Alex's cosseted way of being.

She's looked after, she's the host of this enormous new show in the States. It's like, I guess it's like the one show on steroids. Yeah, it's like one of the breakfast TV shows. Yeah, exactly. It's not hard news. I think they would like it to be in some ways in that direction, but for whatever reason, it's kind of become a little bit more cuddly. So there are shows

like that on the TV in the UK. And Alex has kind of lived this existence for, I mean, years and we see her all plastered on these massive billboards with her co-host, as at the beginning of the show, Mitch, played by Steve Carell. Whereas Bradley's more hand-to-mouth existence, she's doing her makeup in the van at the beginning of the program, she's a field reporter out in a kind of stateside news team, and they're driving to a coal mine and she's going to report from that. It's definitely more authentic, more grounds, real life. She's after the truth, truth, truth. And the difference in authenticity and kind of hiding true feelings, I feel, is what underpins

this first series. Lovely moments of levity as Bradley walks into the UBA studios for her meeting with the producer of the morning show. Someone's casually carrying away a Mitch Kessler life-size cardboard cutout. I mean, it's brutal, but it's real, is what might happen. And that's what you and I think, as always, we're really keen to hear your thoughts on anything we're covering, morning show included. So please keep in touch, Shrink the Box at SonyMusic.com. And I think it is a show that is going to invite a lot of opinion. Well, I'm sure it already has,

but I, you know, having literally just finished it, I feel, wow, there's a lot to dig into. There will be major plot points discussed in this conversation for season one, so if you haven't seen it, you might feel like you want to go back and do that before. Yeah, I don't want to spoil it. And there's going to be difficult themes as well, because there's storylines involving sexual assault and suicide. So best to just like double check with yourself or anyone else as we go forward. So coming up, we're going to ask if we are all capable of being power players and what's real and what's not.

And we're going to learn a little bit about our shadow selves. Welcome to Shrink the Box. Welcome to Shrink the Box. Okay, so here's our recap. We've got Alex Levy played by Jennifer Aniston. She's one of the news anchors on The Morning Show. This is one of America's biggest breakfast programs and her partner of 15 years on the show, that is her TV partner is Mitch Kessler played by Steve Carell and he is fired right at the start of the show under accusations of sexual misconduct. Alex's contract renewals looking wobbly particularly because the heads of the network won't have approval on who her new

co-host will be so she announces her TV partner just out of the blue to the press just to sort of mess with the network and show them that she's got some power still and it's this outspoken news report of Bradley Jackson and Bradley wants to straight away she says she sniffed something wrong at the network and wants to get to the bottom of this sexual misconduct scandal. It turns out there are several players in this that are complicit at the network which is called UBA. Bradley wants to take down anyone and she's not excusing herself from any of that to get to the truth. Alex is the immovable rock at this point. So with that in mind, we're going to look at both of these women. So, Nimone, tell us a bit about your

clients. I feel a bit bad actually because both are kind of warrant their own particular episode. I don't want to take nothing away from their characters individually, but I did think that it was a good idea to kind of look at these two because they intertwine so much and actually they represent different sides of the same coin if you like. So Alex, Jennifer Aniston's character, woman, single, getting a divorce, certainly have been estranged I think for a little while, but holding it together for Lizzie, their only child. Alex is journalist, anchor on the morning show, mid forties. She's old school

professional, very much about keeping up appearances, works extremely hard to keep up that image that everything is perfect, nothing will ruffle her. Bradley is our other client today, so that's Theresa Witherspoon's character. I think she's mid to late 30s, female, single, journalist, older brother I'm thinking, but she very much mothers her brother in this. He comes with drug issues and various difficulties. Okay. So who should we kick off with in terms of first impressions?

Alex or Bradley? We'll go Alex, but it won't be long before we're into Bradley. Yeah, sure. It's like Batman and the Joker. As enmeshed as they are. Alex's mini meltdown in the car is so telling. So she's on her way to an event to be given a journalism award. This is about halfway through series one and more evidence of her belief that she can't change anything. So I think she might come

into the therapy room cross about not having control, a little bit cross. I think I might notice that. And feeling like she's sort of stuck in this place, people are either jealous of her or just being mean. Here's Alex trying to hold on to some of her power and Corrie, head of news, pushing right back. I'm not closing without co-host approval. Well, I'm sorry to hear that because you're not getting it. We're not breaking precedent. I'm not putting the network at risk for future deals. Then I'll walk.

Then walk, Alex. I don't want you to be unhappy. By the way, we bought this award for you. I mean, the powerlessness and the power play within that. And then of course, this just precedes that clip we heard at the top of the show, which is where Alex makes a power grab right back and announces Bradley as her co-host, which they hadn't been expecting. But she realizes she's powerless in that moment until she announces Bradley as her new co-host. And I think that's the moment at the start of the series underlining the importance of power, the perception of it, not having it. I mean, grabbing the power in that moment,

she took a decision that she wasn't necessarily comfortable with to save her own skin. And in doing that renders Bradley completely powerless. I mean, this interplay between having power and not having it, being perpetrator, being victim, being rescuer, that switches in throughout this series and certainly in those first couple of episodes.

Yeah, there's a constant feeling of fear and that demand for power like feels like the opposite. Alex feels like that kind of cornered tiger sometimes. I don't believe she's going to walk. And no, and she had no intention of walking. And then the lack of shock from Corey undermines that, you know, that's like a little power sometimes. I don't believe she's going to walk. And she had no intention of walking. The lack of shock from Corey undermines that. That's like a little power grab. I walk the show screwed and then he's like basically saying, I don't think it could be even better without you.

And that's Alex and her kind of how it relates to her. But of course we watch as she takes power Bradley's sat in the audience a bit bemused about why she's been invited at all to this award ceremony, feeling really uncomfortable because she's at the top table with all these UBA people, including Alex and her husband and the head of news, the head of the network in fact, who definitely don't want her there.

And all of a sudden she's thrust into the limelight and she is totally confused as to what's going on. Moments before she's really voicing that she's felt messed around all day by these people. Do they want me? Do they not want me? Do they think I'm a good journalist? Do they not want me to be on UBA? And she says I've been messed around all day and she was feeling used by Corian Chip and

suddenly she's got the biggest break of her career through no choice of her own. So it is a delicious look at power, agency, choice, unpredictability, survival. And that kind of encompasses everything. You know, Bradley says, why did you choose me? Why did you announce me like that? And she says, I don't really know. Do you believe that the power play was sort of semi-conscious? Yeah, I think it was instinctive in the moment and it was certainly a great choice in that moment. But I'm not sure there was, there wasn't a lot of thought given to the consequences

of choosing Bradley, but that was really, that's survival though, isn't it? And is that a habit thing for Alex perhaps? Well come on to how she feels, as you've rightly said, kind of like a cornered, caged animal and why that might be and why a big move like that might serve her. All right. So in more general terms, when it comes to power plays then, are these things that we learn along the way or do they come out in these moments where we're cornered? I think it's kind of come from experience and your survival instinct. Could it be learned?

That's a really interesting question. I mean, from a female perspective, if we think that women have been detached from their fundamental source of power, which is the divine feminine, I mean, there's objectification, denigration. Patriarchal culture has acted to strip women of their feminine powers,

and perhaps we can see the impact of this here. Alex is played by the patriarchal rules. In a way she's agreed to be objectified in her role on the morning show, certainly not appear more powerful than Mitch, heaven for failed, and is successful, but she's also strangled as she becomes completely entangled in its corruption because it's like she can't break free from it. I have found myself wondering whether she's envious of Bradley and her ability to be really honest and not care what the fallout is. Like you can really feel that Bradley might have said, I'm going to walk and Corey

says it doesn't matter and Bradley would have gone. It wouldn't have been a bluff. In the same sentence Bradley's been abused by the system and struggled, which kind of places her outside this patriarchal system. She can kind of see it for what it is and challenge it. And I'd be curious to unpack with them whether that's a generational thing, whether that feels like a new way of looking at the world, which, you know, if you look at the timing of when the morning show came out, that was certainly in the ether for power dynamics. Yeah. 2019, a lot going on. Yeah. Alex has everything to lose. And she's scared to death by that energy that Bradley bings, that raw energy, that lack of fear. She doesn't play by the rules ever Bradley, whereas you can see Jennifer Aniston as Alex kind of

understanding what the rules are, thinking I'm gonna play by them and thinking that's just not gonna win it for me here. And her power and vulnerability are inextricably linked. She has nothing to lose and everything to gain. This is Bradley. Whereas Alex has everything to lose. And you could, I mean, you could look at Bradley and think well up until now she's been told off everywhere for trying to tell the truth and and be vulnerable and bring a And you could look at Bradley and think, well up until now, she's been told off everywhere for trying to tell the truth and be vulnerable and bring a modicum of authenticity to her broadcasting.

She's used to confrontation. She is used to confrontation. And in a way, it would have served her better to hide that part of herself, but she doesn't. And eventually, it looks like it might come to play in her favor in the morning show, although it's not exactly what the high, I mean, in a way Corey is hiring her as another pawn to throw off the cliff at the end. It's not like he's suddenly going, Bradley is the answer to all our prayers.

She's a way of getting rid of Alex, which is another power move. I mean, they play with that all the way through the series. They're kind of, is there, isn't there a power imbalance in this situation? It's the ever shifting drama triangle. So who is the victim? Who's the perpetrator and the rescuer? That's never entirely clear in each of the scenes that we see. And as an audience, we're kind of being played with as well. They're challenging us.

Do we know what's going on? Do we really understand the power play that's in front of us? And have we identified a victim or is there more than one? And this can be the same in the therapy room as well, depending on who's telling the story and how it's told. If a client comes in and tells you what's happening to them,

you have only got one side of the story. So you have to treat that with a modicum of, okay, there is a more 360 view of what's happening here. And I'm trying to understand what's happening for the client as well. After Alex has dropped that Bradley bombshell, she gets a ticking off in the boardroom with all the big cheeses. So they obviously didn't see that coming, her announcing Bradley Jackson as the co-host. She's demonstrated feeling really powerless, but after patiently listening to Big Cheese Fred, what she has to say is quite something. Are you done?

I'm sorry? The part you guys never seem to realize is that you don't have the power anymore. The news division is held up by my show. And the only thing keeping us afloat is me. Because guess what? America loves me. And therefore I own America. It seems pretty fucking simple, but so easy for you guys to forget.

Are you actually trying to justify your actions? I'm not listening! I don't need to justify anything. You all are so convinced that you are the rightful owner of all of the power that it doesn't even occur to you that someone else could be in the driver's seat And so so we have to just gingerly step around your male egos in order to not burst this

precious little bubble Well surprise I'm bursting it Go on some yeah, what a scene. Great speech. I mean, she's, she's right, but thematically and in theory, but like it actually where she is her character, she's right, like in the wider scope of the world and the injustice between men and women, but where she actually is, she might be wrong. She might be wrong. Like America might be bored of her.

Yeah. You know what I mean? But it's also indicative of this splitting, isn't it? It's like either I've got power or you've got power. And it feels really difficult to in that moment. And of course for her completely incomprehensible that there might be some kind of compromise because they're not really giving that to her. They are. It is a telling off and Corey says as much, I'm going to go and attend the public dressing down of Alex now, which is, you know, it's actually mean coming from his character. And

you know, it is considered to be a public dressing down, which means you are being told off, which means I am the powerful one or the network is, and we are going to tell you off as a child that you have done something wrong. And this is Alex sort of drawing herself up to her biggest self and standing up and saying, I don't think you're right in this instance. She could be very, very kind of scary in those moments and sometimes right, but like we see with her daughter sometimes horribly, horribly wrong. But has you get the sense she's been doing this from when she was, you know, kid, you know, this kind of defiance and is it showy or not? I suppose the other question is it real? or not, I suppose is the other question. Is it real?

Well, there's definitely an element that is real for her. So it's a really good example of the internal struggle for Alex that gets projected outwards. She would love a bit of her messy child to be allowed a bit of air time. And yet she feels like she's been kind of cornered. So she's petulant and childlike, stomping around when she doesn't get her own way. And you can imagine her in the therapy chair kind of coming in and going, I want to control

every, why is no one listening to me? If they did it my way, everything would be fine. It feels like another Larry David reference. Narcissistic rage, not the first mention of that particular word on this show. Everyone did it my way. Oh Ben, if only we did it your way, my way. And I imagine that part of therapy would be helping her identify that that lack of control, which we see in that scene with her daughter,

and we see it writ large throughout the series, is that her inner kind of messy wild child and true self, because there's somewhat of a false self produced by Alex, is fighting to get out. And yet her structure, the way she has structured herself in the present day is terrified of that messy child getting out or that other part. It's another kind of shadow part of ourselves. So to create order out there, she thinks, then it won't be so uncomfortable. But she is living this split life.

So there we go with that splitting again. Until there's a bit more integration, she's gonna struggle. And she is gonna try and tame other people and get them to do it her way. We see it with her daughter, we see it with Bradley, rather than look at herself. You said to me many times that the authenticity in the room is the key element, finding that

authenticity. How do you know where the truth of someone ends and this creation of a person or a personality begins? Like, if you've become that creation and you're that creation for 23 hours of the day, what is that other hour? Even if it is authentic, is that? I don't know. Well, you'd see it, but the intensity of being in, I mean, that 23 hours of the day. What is that other hour? Even if it is authentic, is that? I don't know. Well, you'd see it, but the intensity of being in,

I mean, that's part of the framework of therapy, isn't it? That's what's brilliant about it, is that you see someone at the same time, the same place generally, weekly, in an open-ended way. That's certainly the way that I work, which means that at some point, you're gonna see all of what's available. And it might be those 23 hours of this more false self

or kind of creation is what you witness for the first few years of therapy. But at some point you will be party to or something will happen in the therapy that will reveal a different side. And it's just about getting curious with them about what's happening for them in that moment. So the real you can be completely sidelined for.

You might not even know. And that's what we see in Alex. The necessity to create a false self is tied up in shadow and what we don't feel is acceptable in our environment growing up. We'll come onto that in a bit. Let's dig a little deeper then into that sense of the idea of the false self. There's an insight into her dissociation just how far removed she is from perhaps an authentic self and protection system. When she's in makeup before this first program where she

has to address the audience about what Mitch is being accused of, she can't feel anything when her phone rings and you can see it's Mitch's number that's coming up. And Alex is like, I can't feel anything. And it would be interesting to get curious with her about just how much she is in her body and how, yeah, what she's aware of in terms of anchoring herself. And in that moment, you can feel the fear in watching her

because she is worried about how she's gonna say what she's got to say to the nation about the fact that her co-host of X number of years is not the man that they certainly thought he was and she, and it's slowly dawning on her that he's not the man that she thought he was or is he? Because they really play with that whether she knew or not. I think we hear the truth about Alex, how she really feels when she finally goes around to visit Mitch after the sexual assault reports,

because she talks about living a really strange existence between them. We lived a life that we're never gonna get back, and you're not my husband, and you're not my lover, and you're not my family, and now you can't be my friend. Why can't I be? Because what you did was wrong! Alex, you knew these people. You know that I didn't coerce anybody.

This is Weinstein's fault. Please don't say that. It's so ignorant. Jesus, Alex, I didn't do anything wrong! I didn't. What happened to your TV? We had a disagreement. I'm sorry you're such an asshole. Me too.

I wouldn't use those two words together for you. So, I mean, in amongst some really heavy, I did think, I was like, what happened to the TV? One thing, but don't use those two words together, is kind of inspired in that moment. But amongst those moments of levity is this real conflict for her. Here's this guy that was her friend. Did she know that he was coercing other women into having sex with him? And we learn at one point, a massive spoiler alert that obviously they've had their sexual encounters as well. But that there's a slight difference in the sense of the power was probably equally shared between them. Absolutely.

And then Alex goes into work in her pajamas. I mean this bit I found really, it's so sad to see she's slightly sozzled. She can't sleep because she just doesn't know where else to be. She's in Mitch's dressing room as kind of a place to be close to her co-host who she desperately misses. The kind of close to her co-host, who she desperately misses. The kind of image of the co-host. And fundamentally, I don't think she knows who she is at this point and at various stages through the first series, that there's that highly developed

sense of full self to that's been adapted to please and be successful in this male dominated landscape. And that's what might have been developed from a very early age. Like you say, we don't have much to go on given Alex's childhood experiences. And she, at that point, she's struggling. And they're always in danger there of seeing the frightened child suddenly appear. Yeah, we see it come out. It comes out occasionally. She just says outrageous things like a really angry small child would. There's lots of integration actually, there's Bradley who she knows,

who kind of knows who she is and Alex sees that and I think is probably envious of that. Mitch is obviously struggling to integrate to opposing sides of himself. The shadow which we often don't admit or can't admit resides in all of us. Well that's a frightening way to end the first half but that's what we're gonna do. And after the break we'll dig a bit deeper into Bradley, find out why she feels compelled to tell the truth, even if it risks derailing everything. So, we're gonna see you straight after the break, unless you're a shrinker, in which case we salute you, of course. See you on the other side. Leave you with Bradley.

Look, the other thing is that, and don't shoot the messenger, the show will be heavily scripted. What do you mean by heavily? Completely, The show will be heavily scripted. What do you mean by heavily? Completely. It's gonna be completely... scripted. Okay, now, I'm not a novice. I don't like things to be overtly scripted because it sort of eliminates any possibility of something truthful happening.

Plus, I have a habit of going off script sometimes. Who's Jackson? Well, I see the research has finally begun. I can relate to a good self-sabotage, but it cannot happen on the morning show. Okay. Yeah, listen, I get that you're excited and I get that you're... Don't Drink the Milk is back for Season 2, and we've got even more surprising stories

that take us through time and around the world. Coming up this season, sex, drugs, and lawns? We're back on the road to bring you the hidden histories of sex, drugs, and so much more, hit subscribe You can use your travel credit. Squeezing every drop out of the last day? How about a 4pm late checkout? Just need a nice place to settle in? Enjoy your room upgrade. Wherever you go, we'll go together. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Visit amex.ca slash yamex. Benefits vary by card, terms apply. And we are back. We're wondering about Bradley's truth telling approach and why that feels so scary to Alex, or is it a direct threat?

Just being mindful of where we've been, even in this episode, it feels like we've been like with Alex more, but then Bradley, she sort of puts Alex in Just being mindful of where we've been even in this episode feels like we've been with Alex more. But then Bradley, she sort of puts Alex in perspective, doesn't she? Because Alex is not necessarily telling the truth, not able to feel like she can be herself. Bradley is the diametric opposite of that. Without necessarily wanting to, she becomes the antagonist to Alex's protagonist. And I mean, there is safety in obfuscation of the truth. Literally, things can hide in the shadows. And if there's a lack of clarity, it's vague. Home truths might be hard to swallow.

You can kind of hide. You can sort of see how that culture starts to fly in various areas. And truth can equal weakness to some and vulnerability. And that's obviously to be hidden at all costs for some people. If we see, you know, the truth means reckoning with all the parts, good, bad, and everything in between. And there's a moment in Alex's dressing room before the Bradley interview,

where she talks to her team about that viral clip, which we see early on in series one, where Bradley loses her call at this coal mining protest and Alex says there is no way she did not know this is being filmed it is inconceivable to Alex she cannot countenance that someone would be that open and not realize they're being filmed and so she says I didn't buy a word of it not one word of it what What do you think? I think it was real. Yeah, totally. I think she did lose her completely. Yeah, that's very telling that Alex thinks that's like a play.

Well, we really see someone trying to fight their emotions back during this point and she can't, Alex can't give them any space. Whereas Bradley can't help but let them out. It's so, they're so in stark contrast to each other. And Alex earlier on in that episode has every chance, you know, her husband is sort of offering, shall I stay? Do you want me to kind of be around? And she's like, no, no, no, I don't need that. She cannot let her mask down. Whereas Bradley brings a fresh, authentic perspective. She is all about only

being herself and the pursuit of truth. She doesn't want to, can't follow the rules if they result in a bending of the truth. For her, it's about being transparent as possible. Yeah, you see in the interview with Chip, she does the interview the way we all really want to do an interview. Whereas like, I don't know about this place, don't know about you. This whole place feels a bit weird. How about I tell you what I don't like about this place, I don't know about you, this whole place feels a bit weird. How about I tell you what I don't like about this place to work that you might be trying to do?

I was like, wow. I mean, and Chip is so not really wanting to do the interview anyway, but he's like, why do you think this woman should be working at the morning show? Her open emotionality, freshness, naivety, it gets her in trouble. It did with her old boss and we can see it with the interview that doesn't go well with Chip. She cannot help but tell him what she really thinks. There is also continuing into the series, the moment she decides to be honest, which has a different kind of feel to it about her personal struggles growing up.

It's kind of a riposte from her to the rosy squeaky clean image that they're trying to paint of her personal struggles growing up. It's kind of a riposte from her to the rosy squeaky clean image that they're trying to paint of her on the morning show. It's basically like me trying to stick to a script, isn't it? She starts off reading the autocue and straight away it's like it's so bum numbingly dull and vanilla and false as well about her. And then they've got her mum playing a part and it's she just can't take it she snaps so She goes probably too far in the other way bit of a TMI situation But like you say is it's that's her instinctive response to bullshit

Perfect does that made it seem she's going off script. Well, that's what America loves about you, Bradley. You're real. Yeah, well, just to be real, I don't want young women out there watching the show to think you have to have some perfect childhood to be successful. There were hard times, and I did a lot of stupid things. Oh, of course. We all did.

Yeah, no, I'm not talking about just accepting a dare to jump off the roof of a barn, because I did that. But I got suspended multiple times. I cost my high school track team a championship, because I got caught with alcohol on me. I had an abortion when I was 15 years old. Oh, she did not. The black-eyed. Mother of... Yes!

It's so mad, isn't it? Because Alex gives her a little way out. Oh, well, you've all done stupid things and that would be enough. She still feels like the truth is being obscured somehow and she's being painted as this person that she's not. I'm sure that she was in a lot of trouble, I think, because she was in a lot of trouble with the people she was going to be with. She was in a lot of trouble with the people she was going to be with.

She was in a lot of trouble with the people she was going to be with. She was in a lot of trouble with the people she was going to be with. She was in a lot of trouble with the people she was going to be with. She was in a lot of trouble with the people she was going to be with. She was in a lot of trouble with the people she was going to be with. She was in a lot of trouble with the people she was going to be with. She was in a lot of trouble with the people she was going to be with. She was in a lot of trouble with the people she was going to be with. She was in a lot of trouble with the people she was going to be with. She was in a lot of trouble with the people she was going to be with. She was in a lot of trouble with the people she was going to be with. scared somehow and she's being painted as this person that she's not. I'm sure that she was in a lot of trouble and caused the family much angst over being truthful about

her father and him winding up in jail. I'm sure that's where that, you know, because we do get much more of an insight into Bradley's background and her childhood growing up. This causes so much consternation, this revelation of... Emotion thing. Yeah, what she experienced growing up. To all, but big boss Fred, because it also attracts a newer, younger pro-choice audience to the morning show. So inadvertently, it results in Bradley being given an interview with one of Mitch's accusers that Alex was scheduled to do.

So this truth telling that could trip her up, as we talked about in the beginning and has so often been admonished for, is finally leading somewhere in her life and allowing her a bigger break than she might have thought possible. But we can hear how Alex, who's sort of watching this unfold, begrudgingly gave the interview to Bradley, starts to put a spin on this to journalist Maggie. It's never straightforward when women try to take control of a male-dominated empire, you know, but we made history with that interview. You're already a royal we? That's cute. Thank you. I mean, come on, you really think that I wouldn't take a firm hand in an interview that had stakes that high?

It's funny that she's sort of suggesting they're a team there and that she definitely flips back and forth between whether Bradley should be on her side in inverted commas or not, whether she's with her or against her, whether it's just Alex against the world. And that flips right to the end of this series, doesn't it? I mean, episode 10 is excruciating, because at the start of that, Alex is definitely ready to see the back of Bradley, and she's gonna throw under the bus, come what may.

I mean, Alex's cunning and survival at all costs in this world that she knows all too well. She's working to turn these monumental events to her favor. But it's Alex's jadedness and emotional falseness that again is brilliantly set in contrast to Bradley's openness and inability to be false at any turn. Because Bradley calls her for her emotional speech at Mitch being fired.

She's again, she's hiding her true feelings. And you wonder, I found myself wondering throughout that first series, what would an Alex be like who was able to be a bit more emotionally available? You'd like to think sort of twice as powerful in a good way, who knows? Let's see how they do choose to fight back then in the morning show, right after these messages. You know that feeling when you're like, why isn't there more of this? This show is so good. That was how I felt when I started to get really hooked on Black Butler that I think

is just incredible. Oh, we, yeah, it's coming back. It's just incredible. Oh, we, yeah, it's coming back. It's coming back. He's like, I'm on top of it, I got it. I'm excited. After like a 10 year hiatus. And this is The Anime Effect, the show that allows celebrities to nerd out

over their favorite anime, manga, or pop culture. The Akatsuki theme song, you know what it is. Oh, I listen to that one all day. That thing go crazy. That thing keep... Be in the gym going and they're like, what is he listening to? Oh, it's not even in the gym. I'd be on the field.

I'm Nick Friedman. I'm Lee Alec Murray. And I'm Leah President. Find out which live action anime adaptations David Dossmulsion is praying he'll get to star in. Or how Jamal Williams uses the mindset of Naruto for his NFL career. Listen to Crunchyroll Presents, the anime effect every Friday, wherever you get your podcasts.

Hello, I'm Elizabeth Day, the creator and host of How to Fail. It's the podcast that celebrates the things in life that haven't gone right. And what, if anything, we've learned from those mistakes to help us succeed better. Each week, my guests share three failures, sparking intimate, thought-provoking and funny conversations. You'll hear from a diverse range of voices, sharing what they've learned through their failures. Join me Wednesdays for a new episode each week. This is an Elizabeth

Day in Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. Listen now wherever you get your podcasts. casts. Okay it is us again shrinking Alex and Bradley in the morning show. So at the moment what do we learn from the portrayal of women in the workplace here? We can see the way that those in front of the camera are treated differently to those behind it. There's a hierarchy, innate in the morning show. Alex's way of being at work feels like that shaped by the patriarchy, how she's had to be in the world to make it. There's a lot of talk of a boys club, which Alex has made herself a part of. I mean, I have a feeling that if she'd have tried to be more like Bradley when she first started

out, she would not have succeeded in the way that she did. I don't think it would have been acceptable. I don't think she'd have got the opportunities that Bradley is getting now, we call it the start of her career, but at this stage in her career. The tide is definitely changing and we see that reflected on the morning show. I mean, it might have been if Alex was like Bradley 20 years ago, she'd have been labeled hysterical and over the top, like you said. Yeah. Also, there wouldn't have been the same relationship, you know, it'd be pre-social media in the same amazingly quick way that conjecture can fly around and controversial conversations can happen.

Social media kind of element of it wouldn't have magnified or amplified that. One member of the production team, Yanko's girlfriend, Claire, sort of shows this patriarchal culture because she looks at Bradley's viral video and kind of goes, oh, Hannah, you know, you want someone who's, you know, outspoken and female. This woman's great. I mean, she's a bit hysterical is the undertone of that conversation. And it's like, wow, okay. Claire does challenge the sort of status quo with her sort of biting sarcasm. She's quite a big one for going, why do I have to adhere to this? And I think for Alex, that's what makes Steve Carell's betrayal even more

poignant because she cozied up to him, whether she had feelings or not for him. She now can't disentangle how she feels about him and how she feels about what he's being accused of in a way that she felt that she had to work, be close to him. This is my on-screen partner. It's so enmeshed that relationship. And the disbelief of Steve Carell that he's in this position and he's done anything wrong, I feel like that's carried by Alex in the first part of this season. She's completely conflicted. She doesn't come out and support him immediately.

So if Alex is complicit from the start, can you describe her behaviour as misogynistic? I think the unfolding of everybody's connection and relationship with Mitch is fascinating. And I think misogyny is definitely one of the words that you'd use around that kind of behaviour, that sort of turning a blind eye to his sexual misconduct as he's just like that. It's painful and fury making it different terms. Mia, who you mentioned earlier, one of the show's producers, I mean the examination of her affair with Mitch and her treatment of her. Hannah, the early accuser of Mitch who agrees to come on the morning show, kind of cajoled by Hannah actually into returning to the scene of the crime. The twists and turns alongside the scales are literally falling from Alex's eyes about

Mitch and perhaps wider the team's eyes about what has been allowed to happen in that environment. People keep making digs to her until she finally breaks in this brilliant speech over the talk back to the entire studio. This is Mia. I'm well aware of what everyone is saying about me and now apparently I personally got Nicky fired and and I leaked about Mitch to the Times and I'm sure I'm also the zodiac killer and I probably assassinated Archduke Franz Ferdinand. I mean this list goes on and I could deny a lot of that. Most of it is lies. Just, and the acting there is incredible.

Because up until that moment Mia is very, she holds her own counsel doesn't she and she's got this kind of look on her face the whole time up until that point like the first few episodes. Well and I think it's a real point for the show and us as an audience to recognise the intersectionality that is, it isn't brought to our attention as starkly as the sexual misconduct, but there's certainly a kind of a difference in treatment of gender, of race, of ability. You know, it's kind of, the intersectionality is really interesting, I think, in this first series,

although they chose to focus on a kind of inequality in the gender. These cultures, how do they, how do they begin? That thing of like in the school yard, you know, just the strongest characters, like the alphas and whatnot, and sort of set the tone. Well, I think what you're speaking to is hierarchy, and particularly around this show, is one of my favorite P words, patriarchy. Because I'm not being gendered here, that's a system both perpetuated by all he, she, they.

Patriarchy isn't kind of gendered, it's just the hierarchy and the system within which we're all operating. And Alex at one point says, I can guarantee you're underestimating me, I am really over people flipping doing that. And as though she's not seen as authentic or emotionally open and modern as Bradley, she still has strong opinions about the way she thinks women should be treated. And she is a lot of times inherently hierarchical. So she's kind of embroiled in this system. So I think it's the system that allows that culture. Yeah, which makes it hard to blame individuals to just go, right, Chip, this is all on you

because your position in that hierarchy is at this place. And in that position, you have these responsibilities. And I think that's the point that Steve Carell is trying to make at the beginning, which is why is all of this falling at my door, which of course, if we only think about hierarchy, it might look that that's, you know, he's being sort of, the blame is being laid at his door. But actually, if we think about it in terms of power, of course, you are going to have to take some responsibility

for that. I mean, although Alex, a lot of times we see her align with the hierarchical structure and the patriarchy. She does come forward and speak up for women generally throughout this series. When they're talking to Ashley, one of the women who came forward about Mitch, Alex speaks out. There is no way that Ashley is only one f***ing segment. It's plenty of time for a good interview. It is completely disrespectful to the seriousness of the subject. I get it, but Ashley is not good.

Oh my God, okay, hold on a second. Did you seriously just call her not a good victim? You see how it flips, don't you? But now I'm gonna stand in this position, and then I'm gonna stand with the patriarchal structure. And we really see how Alex kind of plays with that and the nuance of it switching that drama triangle. She's also, she blames Chip.

The ratings are slipping, it's all happening on your watch, she says to Chip at one point. This is the guy who would die in a ditch for Alex. This show is, maybe there's swings and misses in places, but I think it hit me on all the right levels. Maybe think about things I hadn't thought about before. It forces you to look at various types of difficult behavior

without making immediate judgment. It's unsettling, isn't it? In the sense of you can't really rest at any point. Yeah, exactly. Because what you learn about each of the characters in an episode is an incredible amount. I think what they achieved in series one is nothing less than phenomenal. I think what they achieved in that in series one is

nothing less than phenomenal. I would be fascinated to welcome both Alex and Bradley to a therapy room somewhere along the way. All right, that seems like a nice high note to leave it on. Who's coming up next? Oh, Ben. I'm a businesswoman. I can help hear you bragging on your science back there. I'm impressed. I also know pie. No ass telling you know pie.

Pie. Not pie. Up to 56 digits. You care to learn the trade? Hell no. Not with no connect. I get in trouble. I never find forever family.

You might want to start thinking about making your own forever family, Tasty. Orange is the New Black, groundbreaking drama about life in a woman's prison. There are so many brilliant characters we could have gone for. But we've chosen Tasha. Tasty. Jefferson, whose only way out of an abusive children's home is to go and work for a local drug dealer. Great character. We're going to take a look across the board why Tasha prefers life inside the prison to out and why people stay in bad environments because they're too scared of the alternative.

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Production management, Lily Handley, the assistant producer at Scarlett O'Malley, studio engineer is Gulliver Tickle and the mix engineer Josh Gibbs, the senior producer is Selena Ream and the executive producer is Simon Paul. I'll see you behind bars next week. It's a date. Ta-da.