Kermode & Mayo’s Take - S2,Ep1: SHRINK THE BOX: The hidden story behind Frasier Crane (Frasier)

Episode Date: May 7, 2024

Where does Frasier’s snobbery originate from?  Why he reverts to his child state when around his father?  And... the hidden story behind Frasier being a Freudian analyst and Niles (his brother) being a Jungian analyst. Plus, Ben and Nemone’s minds are blown when they realise a crazy coincidence with Frasier and Tony Soprano. We want to hear from you!!! Please drop the team an email with your questions and theories (which may be part of the show): [e-mail] NEXT CLIENTS ON THE COUCH. Find out how to view here Cersei, Game of Thrones (Season 1) Tommy Shelby, Peaky Blinders (Season 1) Larry David, Curb Your Enthusiasm (Season 7) Sydney, The Bear (Season 2) Michael, Office (USA. Season 1) CREDITS We used clips from Season 1 of Frasier Starring: Kelsey Grammar as Dr Fraiser Crane, David Hyde Pierce as Niles Crane, John Mahoney as Martin Crane, Peri Gilpin as Roz Doyle and Jane Leeves as Daphne Moon. Created and written by: David Angell, Peter Casey, David Lee and Brad Hall. Directed by: James Burrows, David Lee, Andy Ackerman and Rick Beren. Produced by: Grub Street Productions, Paramount Network Television, Paramount Television (in association with) Grammnet Productions and National Broadcasting Company (NBC) Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey Mark, you know I've been spending a lot more time in Denmark recently. Yep, the bakery date is in the calendar still. Well it being a Nordic country and everything, I found the perfect solution to streaming all those lovely films and TV shows that we review whilst I'm there. What on earth would that perfect solution be Simon? Well NordVPN of course, you see it's Nord, Nordic. You don't know it yet. I get it, moving on.

With one click NordVPN can change my device's virtual location so I can access all the content I need when I'm abroad. I can now watch poor things, whether in London or Paris. Why even wait until you're on holiday? You can do it right now and access content in over 61 different countries, unlocking all this content for less than a price

of a pano raisin a month. To take our huge discount off your NordVPN plan go to nordvpn.com slash take. Our link will also give you four extra months for free on the two-year plan. Now back to the show. Hello it's Simon here and Mark. Thank you for listening. There's a special thing in our feed here and it's shrink the box. This week, Ben and Iman will be putting Fraser Crane in therapy. Yes, it's Fraser Crane, the title psychotherapist of the legendary 90s sitcom. Passion for fine wine, classical music, all the finer things really. However, he can't make a relationship stick. So what is stopping him from opening up and letting people in? That's the thing. We'll find out. On with the show.

Tell me you would have handled it differently, Frazier. Oh, I'm sorry, Niles. I didn't realise you'd start talking. You haven't heard a word I said. Niles, you're a psychiatrist. You know what it's like to listen to people prattling on endlessly about their mundane lives. You know what it's like to listen to people prattling on endlessly about their mundane lives? Touche. And on that subject, I heard your show today. And?

You know what I think about pop psychiatry. Yes, I know what you think about everything. When was the last time you had an unexpressed thought? I'm having one now. Hey, it's Ben Bailey Smith here. And I'm Nimone Metaxas. And welcome to a brand new season of Shrink the Box with a brand new psychotherapist, Nimone Metaxas.

Hello, Ben. Hello, hello, hello. And if you're wondering where you've heard those dulcet tones before Nimone is a broadcast for likes of six music and radio one so immediately call it a me But I'm not threatened. It's fine right. I'm glad I'm actually good. I'm glad you're here I'm really pleased to be here for the start of something new feels like a real adventure and on a podcast where we select tv's most intriguing fictional characters and kind of pose the question if they went to a therapist what might be some of the things that will come up yeah and we're gonna have a little

correspondence from you guys at the end as well let us know as always what you feel what we should be watching tell us your series shrink thetheboxatsonymusic.com. So before I met you, I knew you were a broadcaster, I knew you were a DJ. I had no idea about the therapy side. So what was that leap? Can you tell us a bit about that journey? Yeah, of course.

I was always fascinated by what made people tick and relationships and how people got on and why they didn't and what was going on with that. And went back and studied psychotherapy and counseling alongside my six music shows and got my MA. And now I see clients on a weekly basis alongside this and the radio. It's just a pleasure to have you here.

All right, let's get cracking. Tell us about the clip at the top. Nice little intro to the two brothers. I think it kind of encompassed quite a lot of what we're gonna be talking about, doesn't it? That was Fraser of course speaking to his younger brother Niles and Niles poking Fraser where it hurts him most, his beloved radio show and their way of communicating with each other which means I think sometimes taking a position of one-upmanship. It's just one

line after one line and like you know you've got Kelsey Grammar giving, seems weird to say once in a lifetime performance but it's maybe the most literal once in a lifetime performance because he played this character for over two decades. Yeah, it was his life. That was his life. A long time. And now he's back doing it again.

Which is mad, right? Yeah. Obviously he did nine years on Cheers which was an equally huge show but nowhere near as cerebral as this, right? They definitely took that character. One less dimension to him. Were you a fan of this? When it first?

Oh, hugely. I mean, I dreamt of a kind of Frasier Crane style radio show. Not a la Frasier, obviously, as one would come on to. But the idea that you might be able to connect with an audience via therapy, I found that really interesting. Before I was even in therapy, before I was even in radio. Really? What would be the legality if it was real?

You need an awful lot in place in terms of protection, in terms of them knowing what they were getting into, in terms of you holding a space. I mean, Fraser's a kind of agony arm. Yeah, that's what I was going to say. That's what we really get. Exactly, you don't really give advice in therapy and you wouldn't, you'd be spending a lot more time with people, as we'll come on to. Whereas if Fraser's in a bad mood,

he's gonna give you advice and more. You might get something different if you meet him in a good mood. Yeah, there were some issues with the therapy in Fraser and Fraser the therapist. Hmm. Sometimes the worse they are, the funnier it is. So it's like hard to... It's like comedy value, isn't it?

If it was a drama, you'd be like, oh, hold on. Yeah. Do something. If it's a mistake, do something else. Will you do that, Russell? Will you? Russell? I think we lost him. No, we cut to the news 30 seconds ago. We're crying out loud.

You see everything in the first episode though, don't you? Yeah, you really do. What a setup. The contradiction that is at the heart of this show, which is something that I think is particularly interesting for me, but I think is interesting across the board, is that psychiatrists generally thought to be unflappable, sordid, know themselves, be able to read you immediately. Frasier, of course, when we meet him, is totally the opposite of that. Wish we were going to explore.

All right, so stay tuned then as we dive into tricky father and son relationships, sibling rivalry is most hilarious and we explore why Frasier is such a bloody snob. Now if you're new to the show there will be some spoilers and that seems weird to say about Frasier but there are big things, big things that I prefer not to know so we'll give you a good warning on those. Welcome to Shrink the Box. Alright so quick recap you would have got a lot of it from what Nemoen's already told us but Frazier Crane is played by Kelsey Grammar, he's this highly aspirational, unbelievably snobbish, forty-something divorcee. He's moved back to Seattle, which is where he's grown

up, to set up a whole new life, new job. He wants to be this bachelor around town. The job is hosting this therapy-based talk show on the radio. Now, Frazier's constantly getting involved in these emotional skirmishes with his brother, Niles, played by David Hyde Pierce. If you think that Frazier's the most pompous man you've ever seen in your life.

Wait until you meet Niles, effectively. Oh my God. Also a psychiatrist. I mean, that's a great setup. Absolutely and you're constantly reminded of different elements of how qualified they are because they love to boast about everything that they've done. But Frazier's main sort of gripe is that he's been forced to live with his dad through the guilt of not wanting to send him to an old people's home

or like a care home or something like that. We'll kind of get into all of the nitty gritty, but it went from humble beginnings in Seattle to the iconic University of Harvard, as you said, trained in psychoanalysis, which again comes with a whole raft of judgment and kind of patriarchy actually, because it sort of started by Sigmund Freud, who we'll come onto later. He's divorced from Lilith, he's quite particular, and although he doesn't feature loads in person, looms large. Yeah, a bit like Merus, there's a few sort of invisible characters. Invisible female characters, quite a few invisible female characters.

Mum as well. One's dead, yeah. And Fraser's ex-wife Lilith has custody of their child, Frederick. So he's come back from Boston after giving up his own private practice and dad Martin who was a cop forced into retirement after a gunshot wound now lives with Frasier along with Martin's dog and the eccentric English carer that they take on in the first episode. The inimitable Daphne. It's an amazing setup for a sitcom because he thinks he's escaped Frasier right but actually like any good sitcom he's escaped, Fraser, right?

But actually, like any good sitcom, he's still trapped, right? I wonder if you could talk a bit about what that's like, that dynamic of reconnecting in that way, being pushed back together as a child and parent, even though you're both, obviously. Adults. Yeah. Oh, I mean, I think it brings up a lot of what the show hinges on, which is the impossibility for Fraser of having this ideal relationship, which he would love with his dad, where his dad would love his really exotic furniture and kind of see his career as something that he's really proud of.

I mean, Fraser really wants the praise and kind of acceptance of his dad and they keep locking horns. And I suppose it's that setup of coming back into a family dynamic which you thought you might have left behind. It shows us all the problems in life doesn't it? Because you are one person when you're growing up, or not one, but you're kind of in a certain way in that environment, and then you go out in the world and you flourish in many different ways that may not have felt acceptable when you were living at home. And to bring that adult person back into the original dynamic is where we find the kind of issues because you might regress to being the child. And it just got me thinking about their dynamic and the fact that they do both become

infantile in each other's presence. Oh, there are child states littered throughout this show. You throw in Niles in his three-way. How have we got to this stage? We could look at this psychodynamically. So when I'm saying that, I mean object relations and the original relationship. Object relations get played out in later life. They're the relationships and the relationship pattern

that exists from a really early age. And as a person gets older, ideally, you move from a way of relating in the world when you're really little and a child, people or things as objects and then you grow into objects becoming subjects. So there's a movement into into subjective relating where you begin to understand that others have their own feelings and ways of being that are independent of you and not everything they do relates to you.

But there are of course times when we revert back to our child self and when we start to relate in a more black and white way in terms of good and bad and that leads us back to our, we call it an internal world of objects, so that's what a child will be doing, or a baby, will be kind of understanding the world in terms of objects. Here's my parent, they bring me food, that's obviously a good thing. When they don't, they become bad. And it's a really split way of thinking. So there's a natural moment in maturation where that starts to change and some kind of empathy is

developed so you don't become psychopaths. Terrible twos, Ben, are the terrible twos. So that's two. I'm picking up the terrible twos because there's a lot of frustration and we see it in kids who are really little. In the, hang on, the world will not bend to my will. And that's kind of where we are with Fraser and his dad in lots of ways and a lot of the behavior that we're seeing is, why aren't you like I want you to be?

Yeah. Because they're subject with their own thoughts and feelings and the intersubjective relating isn't always there. Damn. I just got thrown back again to the very first episode on Tony Soprano, because I remember my brother saying, Tony's like a, he's like an infant. He's like a big baby. Whenever he can't have what he wants, he lashes out in the most ridiculous and harmful ways. Yeah, kind of regression. It's important to say the adult self-state of Fraser's living with his dad and can appreciate that Martin is separate from him

But he gets poked in so many ways into being the child and That's when he can revert to this sort of early way of thinking about the world and gets frustrated Mmm, they all know how to push it push each other's buttons of the three of them don't they but particularly Frazier and and Martin the episode where they're in the restaurant. Yeah. Oh they want to take him to a fancy restaurant right, the boys and just trying to bond and then it's all booked up and they have to go to his favorite restaurant which is like a you know cheap and cheerful steak diner sort of the earth kind of stuff and the way they take the out of him is like it's like playground stuff. It's relentless

His marriage organizing me Arts Council benefit again this year matter of fact she is Where are they holding it? Well? They haven't picked a spot yet. Perhaps. I should tell them about this place Perhaps I should tell them about this place. I'd like to be a fly on the wall that night. You wouldn't be the only one. All right, that's it. I had enough of you two jackasses. I spent the whole night listening to you making cracks about the food and the help.

Well, I got news for you. People like this place. I like this place. I mean, when you insult People like this place. I like this place. I mean when you insult this restaurant you insult me. You know I used to think you two took after your mother liking the ballet and all that. But your mother liked a good ball game too. She even had a hot dog once in a while. She may have had fancy taste but she had too much class to ever make me or anybody else feel second rate. If she saw the way you two behaved tonight she'd be ashamed.

Ouch. And it's just like even the tone alone. But there's something else happening in that dynamic as well because remember there's a power struggle going on and Martin is dad at the end of the day and we see this in various points during the series but of course the boys then have got comfort in being able to understand each other and kind of dig at Martin. So there's something else happening there as well in terms of a power, bit of a power struggle. But he can't kick him out. No. He can't. What would you explore first in therapy? What would you ask him I guess? I'll come on to that.

There's something that you've just said that's reminded me of something which might be nice to throw in but I think we'll probably explore it in later episodes. It's something called the depressive position which Melanie Klein talks a lot about who is another psychoanalyst alongside Freud and Jung and we'll come on to them a little bit later in this show because of course Niles is a Jungian psychoanalyst and Fraser is a Freudian one. It's a brilliant setup by the writers and I'll explain why later but this depressive position is when you kind of realize that you can't have both.

It's like, it's the understanding of, oh, there isn't a comfortable position for me to be in here. There is an element of suffering that's involved in this. I can't kick my dad out because that will make me feel bad. And living with him makes me feel bad. So how do might approach him? I work often with a relational lens, so I'd be looking at Frasier from the relationships he's formed, his first relationships, see what that tells us about how he relates his

expectations, what he's used to receiving or not, affection or not, is there a distance in those relationships. If someone's been starved of affection, I can often find myself feeling hungry in the therapy room. So I'm paying attention to what's happening in my body, as well as what's happening for other people in their bodies as well. Look at how nurturing or distant Martin was when he was growing, when Frasier was growing up, or how he might have been met or missed by his mother. And of she is missing in this which makes it a really interesting kind of area for exploration because there's a missing element to his parenting and everything we're told about her is that she might have been

quite distant. There's a wonderful quote from Niles in the first, I think first or second episode where he says, I feel this overwhelming urge to hug you. Remember what mom always said, a handshake is as good as a hug. Why is woman? Okay. You learn a lot from one line there. You can.

And so we're then looking at an idea of distance from both parents. There wasn't necessarily touchy feely huggy kind of family, a place of feelings. We don't know that, but that's what we can assume from some of the clues that we've heard early on. And a whole lot of mourning, by mourning, I mean, as in the idea of loss. The kind of realization that the reality

that you might have imagined or desired or really wanted, it's not gonna be possible. That horrible realization that you always knew, but didn't do anything about it. Well, then we could come onto existential psychotherapy. Before we do that, I have to rewind. Even if we might not actually do that. I have to rewind at least a minute and a half

because my jaw just briefly hit the desk here Okay, when you sense that someone is starved of emotion you feel hungry if You start to pay attention to what is happening in your body when you are with Another body you can kind of get a feel for internal cues. It's kind of an unconscious form of communication. It's probably too much to go into here and I'm really happy to delve into it in further episodes. I think what you're trying to tell me is that my new co-host has superpowers. I know, like I say, you've got to get used to working with a layman.

But that's what the f*** it sounds like to me. That is incredible. I need to sign up, learn how to do it. You don't do it. You are, you be it. But I mean... Yoda over here. This is incredible.

Honestly, it, there's a kind of... it doesn't say any of this in the interview. I Thought I'd wait That's incredible bring the force in on the first no, I appreciate that I just okay I didn't I didn't realize we'd get there that quick But I mean you dropped it in there and I couldn't let it slide. I'm in quiet awe of you, that's all. Let's talk about Frasier's upbringing and how it's affected his adult relationships. Let's take ex-wife Lilith who is also absent for the first, well we say we think about 16 episodes don't we? Everyone says she's cold and distant and difficult to get close to but this is something that's really familiar to Frasier if we think about 16 episodes, don't we? Everyone says she's cold and distant and difficult to get close to.

But this is something that's really familiar to Fraser if we think about, certainly the relationship we're understanding with Martin that we're seeing, which is they don't get on, they were estranged for a long while, mom's a handshake as good as a hug, all of that. The family was used to a level of distance in their relating and there's something homely about that for him. He may not even know that

that's what he's drawn to, but it's so familiar to him that that might be why he ends up marrying Lilith. Because you have several times, maybe not Niles, but certainly Martin, I don't know why you got together with Lilith. And we can kind of think, well actually that replicates a relationship, a close female relationship, i.e. mother and son, distance that he might be repeating. Why would one be drawn to something that doesn't work for them? There's a level of familiarity and safety, in inverted commas, that is experienced. What might be really scary to them

is a relationship where there's affection, because they don't know what that looks like. Wow, yeah. So we've got cold Lilith. We've got cold Lilith. We also potentially have cold mum. I can't remember what her name was. Do Fraser's mum, do we know her name?

I'm not even sure we know. She was a psychoanalyst into the finer things in life. That's the line that we're given at the top of Fraser. His dad was blue collar cop. I wonder why Fraser chose his mother's view of the world and kind of takes it to that extreme. I think it might have been that he aligned himself with the more sensitive side of the family.

And we don't know that she was sensitive. What we do know is that she was distant and he might have made her good and dad bad, which actually Martin alludes to a little bit later on as well here. Yeah. And Martin by nature of his work would have been forced to be distant in some ways because you wouldn't want to bring that around to little boys. So he probably kept himself distant, went to the bar after work and wasn't around. That might have been something that he's learnt

through the job. It might have been something that was there in the first place. Yeah, that he had from his dad. Yeah. And that's impossible for a little kid to understand. You know, if you're five, six, you just want dad around. Yeah, and look at all my friends whose dads are with them.

That's the only thing, the resentment of that. The kind of comparison, You just want dad around. Yeah, and look at all my friends whose dads are with them. That's the other thing, the resentment of that. The kind of comparison, because also you want to fit in, don't you, as a kid? And we all want to belong rather than be on the outside and be different. He wants a dad, do you know what I mean? But he doesn't want his dad to be that dad.

He doesn't want this dad. He wants to refine him, like a terrible marriage. There's a great three minute conversation they try and have without arguing where Martin tries to start the conversations by saying how about those seahorses, you know, no sports. All right, no opera agreed But this is with the egg timer that they get from the kitchen to see how they're because because of course the competitive element Is there so they're gonna see how long they can have a decent conversation at depth.

Oh how should I expect anything out of you? You are the most cold, intractable, unapproachable, distant, stubborn, cold man I've ever known. You said cold twice Mr. Egghead! Egghead! Egghead! You are so infuriating! Well you're not dead to beach either. You know what you are. I'll tell you later. It's time for my program.

You know, for comedy purposes, absolutely hilarious. You know, just a brilliance. One of my favorite of that whole first series. So why? Why comedically is that? Did you used to be into Bonnie Python now? Yes. There's a sketch with Michael Palin and John Cleese.

And this is in an office building. John Cleese is working there. He's very stiff. Knock on his office door, and it's Michael Palin. He's like, I'm here for the argument. But they have a massive argument that he's paying for. I came here for a good argument. No, you didn't.

You came here for an argument. Well, an argument's not the same as contradiction. Can be. No, it can't. argument that he's paying for. And the way they rile each other up, all of that's hilarious but the framework of it is like it has to happen in this given time. In fact there's even a dinger in John Cleese's film. Thank you, thank you very much. Amazing. So it really reminded me of that. It's like a perfect comedy construct. Have two people who appear on the surface like polar opposites that can just go back and forth back and forth back and forth creates a rhythm of comedy that becomes song like that every single moment of timing is crucial. How do you do that? Can you do it?

No, I don't think everyone can. Having experienced recording comedy in front of a camera and recording comedy in front of an audience, two obviously very different things. Ultimately, it's gonna come down to the chemistry and the trust that you have in the other person, especially in a two-hander. So just like in drama, you've got to buy completely into your character. And right, so you are Frasier Crane.

So you know how he would react. Once the lines are in your head and everything, then you can play. You both want it to be great. You're not going to be like, oh, make sure I'm better than this guy in this. No, that's, that's going to be a shit scene. Which is both got to be amazing. Which is interesting in, in relation to this, isn't it? Because what they're doing is trying to put each other down.

It's perfect. It's like, it's almost like an improv game. And they actually want each other to win, both of them. Yeah. They do get close to genuine points of connection. And when we see that, when Martha rings the radio show. Oh my god, what a scene that is. I know.

I thought I was going to cry at one point. Mm. Yeah, I'm worried my son doesn't know that I really appreciate what he's done for me. Why don't you tell him? Well, you know how it is with fathers and sons. You have trouble saying that stuff. Well if it helps, I suspect your son already knows how you feel. Is that all? Yeah I guess that's it,

thank you Dr. Crane. My pleasure Martin. Yeah what I said, I said thank you. Yes I heard. Thank you. Yes, I heard. The acting again is so beautiful because right towards the end where he says, you know, goodbye to Martin. Yeah. You can almost see in Kelsey's face that he's desperate to say dad and knows that he can't. Also, we witnessed the distance there. It's like, what are they able to say to each other when they're not in the same room? Dr. Crane, the radiotherapist, Martin, the caller, in inverted commas, they

can actually talk to each other. And they need that distance in a way as a kind of safe distance to show their emotions, or at least that's kind of how it feels. And all three of the boys are unable to speak their heart or their truth to what should be their soulmates, you know, their partners because mum is gone, Lilith is gone and Niles clearly expresses his true thoughts about Maris when Maris is gone. Yeah. And she's not there, you know? So remote is better for all three of them, isn't it?

Yeah. Well, there's something. They're able to operate a bit better with some kind of barrier protection. And you don't get it. Exactly. You don't get it more than Martin ringing the radio show. We should talk siblings. Yeah, we should. Where'd you begin with having those two in the same house?

One of them would be tough enough. It's a wonderful view of sibling rivalry because it's constant and they are always in competition. And they are both psychiatrists. Of course. Frazier is a Freudian psychiatrist, psychoanalyst, and Niles's Jungian. And Freud and Jung were friends.

Jung was a kind of student of Freud, and they were co-collaborators working together and believe in the same kind of ideas. And then they don't. In a rather large schism that happened in psychoanalysis. I don't know anything about this and I can't wait to hear more but the way you delivered that had that cliffhanger vibe so I think we should call it right now let's take let's take a break and we're going to get into this rivalry that I didn't know anything about I'm excited plus we're also going to find out what

the difference is between psychiatry, psychoanalysis and psychotherapy because there's distinct differences. Am I right? Ish. Ish. Okay, good. So we'll see you after the break unless you're subscribed to The Take, of course, in which case I'm gonna be right back. Sooner than I can grab a cheeky cinnamon latte from Cafe Nervosa. Here we go. This episode is brought to you by the curated streaming service Mubi. Mark, for our wonderful listeners who already have a Mubi account and for those who might

be thinking about getting one could you please tell us what films they can enjoy this May? Certainly, Simon. This month, Mubi are launching their Cannes Takeover. You know how much I love Cannes. And in honor of the Cannes Film Festival, which kicks off this month, here is a selection of what they have available to stream in the UK. They have Annette, which is the Leos Carracks musical with Music by Sparks, which is absolutely wonderful. And Tokyo Guard, which is the film a German director Wim Wenders who travels to Tokyo

to explore the world of one of his cinematic heroes Yesajira Ozu. That's Mubi's Cannes takeover series. What else? Well there's also Voilá Varda which is a look back on some of the best of the famous French director. There's Cleo from 5 to 7, Le Bonheur, Vagabond, The Cleaners and I, and The Beaches of Agnes. You can try MUBI free for 30 days at mubi.com slash Kermit and Mayo. That's m-u-b-i dot com slash Kermit and Mayo for a whole month of great cinema for free. Well hello there. Simon and Mark here to tell you about Indeed.

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fast? Listeners of this show will get a £100 sponsored job credit to get your job's more visibility at indeed.com slash KermodeMayo. That's indeed.com slash KermodeMayo. That's indeed.com slash KermodeMayo. Terms and conditions apply. Need to hire? You need Indeed. Indeed. All right, we are back with a shrink the box bombshell to be honest. Huge revelation.

My mind's blown. In the little break, I mean it would have been no break whatsoever if you're a subscriber to the take and thank you for that. But in the time that we had, we were wondering what the missing mother of Frasier and Niles was actually called, what the character was called. Bit of a ingenious digging from our producer. And turns out her name was Hester Rose Crane. That was the character's name.

And she popped up in season three of Cheers, played by Nancy Marchand, who played the mother of Tony Soprano, Olivia in The Sopranos. I mean how many more throwbacks to the first episode ever of Shrink the Box, because there being this episode, the first ever of this new season with our amazing new psychotherapist in tow.

But there's no there's more because she wanted to murder somebody. Oh my god. In season three. The craziest part. Of Cheers as she arrived as Fraser's mom, Hester Rose Crane. I mean that's the kind of... Right. I mean double exhalation from both your hosts here, guys, because that's just

blowing my mind. So love Niles roasting Frasier. It's one of my favourite things. Well, you don't have to wait very long and it happens a lot. You must be very proud of Frasier. Well, actually, no. This nomination is just one more signpost on the low road of celebrity which my brother has chosen for himself. I hope that's not sibling rivalry rearing its vicious little green snout. Absolutely not. I'm still in the minority who believes psychiatry is a noble profession which is tarnished by such things as popularity contests, not to mention a bouncy little radio program.

I bet you two had wicked little hair pulling fights when you were tarts. Never misses a dig at Frasier about his radio shows selling out. What's behind the this constant kind of ehh ehh ehh, this poking the bear? Do you want to do the Freudian Jungian split here because I think it's one of many brilliant devices that the writers use in their show. I was so blown away by the Nancy Marshawn news. We thought we had a bombshell and we outbombed the bloody bombshell. Double bombshell.

Double bombshell. Yeah, sorry guys. Before the break, before my mind was blown, we were talking about Freudian styles, Jungian styles, which I know nothing about. Frazier's Freudian, Niles, Jungian styles, which I know nothing about. Freyja is Freudian, Nalaz is Jungian. Freudian psychotherapy, psychology, named after Sigmund Freud, considered the godfather of modern psychoanalysis and a source of many ideas which still endure today. And of course

we could spend an entire series debating the efficacy of his theories and how far reaching they've become. Basically, Freud believed that human behaviour was influenced by unconscious memories, thoughts, desires, often happening out of conscious awareness and by a process of free association whereby you'd come into a therapy room and just speak, these unconscious processes could be brought into awareness, realised and worked on. So he's where id, ego and superego come from and we will definitely come back to those in later episodes. Jungian psychotherapy, named after Carl Jung, initially prodigy and student of Freud, close collaborator,

stemming from a similar source, his ideas. Well, he categorized the psyche as ego, self and shadow, and he talked in terms of inner and outer world, and he used dream analysis as a route to understanding our unconscious and bringing those more into our conscious awareness. Now, what's brilliant about this prop is that Freud even thought of Jung as an adopted son

and successor of his brand, if you like, of psychoanalysis at one point. And the collaborative correspondence is legendary, but they fell out irrevocably in the end, with each accusing the other of an inability to admit they were wrong. Wow. I mean, the writers just chose perfectly. Oh my god that's a level to

Frasier that I just didn't I didn't acknowledge at all I didn't know what a brilliant little thing to add in there. And Nas is the younger brother and the professional competition and rivalry is immense in this. There's an episode towards the end of season one where they both try and write a book together, right? We just, I'll have a little listen to that. Is that what this little tantrum is all about, huh? You're jealous of my celebrity? It's not a tantrum and I'm not jealous. I'm just fed up!

I'm fed up with being second all the time. You know, I wanted to be a psychiatrist like mom way before you did, but because you were older, you got there first. You were first to get married. You were first to give dad the grandchild he always wanted. By the time I get around to doing anything, it's all chewed meat.

You're crying about something that we can't change. Oh, you wouldn't change it if you could. You'll love it. Oh, let it go, Niles. I can't let it go. My nose is rubbed in it every day. I'm the one on the board of the psychiatric association. My research is well-respected in academic circles.

Four of my patients have been elected to political office, but it's your big fat face they put on the side of buses. I do not have a fat face. Oh, please. I keep wondering how long you're gonna store those nuts for winter. Well, at least I'm not spindly. Oh my God, my God, I'm having a flashback. You're climbing in my crib and jumping on

me. You stole my mummy. I mean, it's phenomenal stuff. It's so brilliant. And obviously in there are some really archetypal moments from a sibling's upbringing of, you know, around the likes of Freud and Jung, which might be, oh, you know, I remember a sibling climbing in, you know, siblings are vying for attention. And there is a sense from both of these guys, Fraser and Niles, they just haven't grown up. And what's being fueled by the relationship with their parents as well, which will be how are they being allowed to be expressive and be their own selves or not, would definitely come into this.

Yeah, I suppose because you get a sense that that the crane house wasn't a big talking house. So where and when would you feel safe to let these emotions roam free? And that dad was quite scary and absent, in which case both boys might have gravitated towards mom. And then there's a kind of competition for attention. And then you go to institutions like Harvard, which preach excellence, almost like a religion. You have to do something with your life that is of note to the wider world.

Well, that's what's being celebrated. Can you change it halfway through? Is that it? Because of how your dynamic began? Again, there's something really comfortable for both of them in that. Fraser reluctantly, because he doesn't want to write a book with Niles, but as we mentioned right at the top of the show, he wants to be the good brother as much as he wants to be the good son.

And it's sort of a relentless hope that it's going to change and be different for them. And then they're dragged back into the same relational pattern. Spoiler alert. Daphne lets slip to Martin that the boys have wanted to ask him about having an affair. Amazing episode in so many ways. And Martin assumes that the boys were spying when they happen to be in the same restaurant at the same time and reacts with shock and both boys look at their feet in a classic naughty child pose. Although what they were actually doing was being curious but we can kind of see the fear then of being told off by dad and they're kind of in it together and that's what's difficult for

them because there's a comfort in being together and and brotherly which they are at moments and it's dad in fact that gets them back together but unknowingly which they are at moments. And it's dad, in fact, that gets them back together, but unknowingly also might keep them apart. They do need each other, don't they? And I think there's a level of love and kind of trust between them. Yeah, it comes out often, but begrudgingly. And comes out comedically. It cannot be expressed. That's the genius of the show, eh?

Without the laughter. And that episode is a perfect example, you know. They find out what they think they've It cannot be expressed without the laughter. And that episode is a perfect example, you know. They find out what they think they found out. It's a huge moment for both of them and it's really serious, you know. Where are they going to go with this? It happened a long time ago and it's not anything I'm proud of. And now that I've answered all your questions, do me a favour.

This is never to be brought up again, understand? End of discussion. No. It's times like this that most families pull together and draw strengths from each other. What shall we do? And there's nothing. It's incredible. And that line could be the tagline for the whole series.

Here's what normal people do and here's what the cranes do. And this is what we're unable to actually bring together or get to connect over even this. With Niles wondering how normal people hug and share emotions and show their vulnerability. It would be the dream thing to psychoanalyse why he feels that way or therapies or psychiatries. Do you see what I'm getting at? We've waited long enough. What the f*** is the difference between psychotherapy, psychoanalysis and psychiatry. Okay.

And what are you? What the hell are you doing? What have you brought me? So in terms of job titles, psychiatrist is what Fraser is, but it's different in America to the UK. Psychiatrist is a medical doctor in America. From the American Psychiatric Association, this is the definition. Specializes in mental health health including substance use disorders

But they are qualified to assess both the mental and physical aspects of psychological problems Which I guess is where the therapy part comes in but he's a strap. He's a doctor for sure He's definitely a doctor of psychiatry and he is also a psychoanalyst Okay, so we'll come on to that in just a minute psychiatrists in the UK from the government website actually, they diagnose and treat patients with mental health problems. So that's usually people who present symptoms that have been described in the DSM, which is the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of

Mental Disorders, the latest version of which is number five. So that is when you might end up in a psychiatric hospital and your psychiatrist will be prescribing medication. They may also be able to suggest or refer you to a talking therapist. But you might not get that from your psychiatrist is my understanding. These are different to psychoanalysts. Psychoanalysts will themselves have been in five times weekly analysis for a period of time. Wait, they're being analyzed? They will have been. You may not have a lot of

intervention from your analyst, but they will be with you whilst you are free associating to allow the unconscious desires to be made conscious. Why? And it's not set in stone, so it's not only like that. So we come to are free associating to allow the unconscious desires to be made conscious. And it's not set in stone, so it's not only like that. So we come to psychotherapy and counselling. Just before we move on from psychoanalyst, do they say less? They may say nothing. Psychotherapy and counselling, which is what I practice, also will have trained at specialist

institute, college or university. Typically having done a master's or advanced psychotherapy and counseling diploma will have been in therapy themselves and depending on the requirements of their training Institute and often you can use psychotherapy and counselor interchangeably but they will say more and there will be more dialogue in the room. If that all sounds confusing it is., I mean I think I've got the very basics of it, which is good. You laid that out really well. But basically, you've got to find someone you can sit in a room with and who you trust.

And that can be from any school, any background. Sometimes though, discomfort and challenge is key as well. So you obviously want weekly therapy with somebody you despise. No, but I definitely want to be challenged. I want someone to say have you thought about this? You know, we can't not discuss Frazier's style of psychiatry Sometimes he yawns he cuts people off Surely he's breaking a whole heap of ethical boundaries here. And dating clients.

Talking about his family. On air! Dating clients is definitely a no-no. But he might, and I know you have covered erotic counter-transference on the show before, and we'll come back to that. Disclosure in the sense of how much we know about Frazier from talking about his family.

I mean, it's not ideal, but again, all of that can be worked on and with if Frasier remains open and curious for long enough. Does he? Do you think? It's a bit of a moot point because why would they do any of this stuff? It would take away from the comedy and the speed of the episode. The episodes are like 22 minutes, 23. It's amazing that they get anything that feels like real life into that space. It's the genius of the writing. You don't want to take that away, do you? By any means. But ideally, therapeutic spaces were this IRL.

Is as open and non-judgmental as possible. And the hope would be that you might know something about your own sense of judgment. You might have worked long enough to know what you are also bringing into the room. and we see time and time again how judgmental Fraser is and that there's little or no attempt for greater insight. Alright so Fraser's taken this huge step in bringing his dad into his world and as we've established he's done it reluctantly but what Niles astutely points out, partly to avoid having to do the job himself, is that this could rekindle the relationship.

It could solve one of the biggest problems in your life so far, the distance you have between the people you're supposed to love. The opportunity is enormous. It's an opportunity. And yet, as we see episode after episode, he's constantly pushing against that by being a fucking baby.

Can any of us ever change the thing that's holding us back, this invisible force that seems to tug us back into these behaviors? Broadly, I'm going to say yes, but I would counsel against saying something that's holding us back. The keeping a distance for Fraser is a defence that works really well. In a therapy room, we might keep bringing attention to it and it's a lifelong work to

think, oh, that's happening again. Everybody needs a shot at happiness and you watch it and you think, just try to do this, please, you know. That's what brings people often to therapy. Crisis, of course. And then a desire to do this, please. You know? That's what brings people often to therapy. Crisis, of course. And then a desire to do something differently. Nice. We will be right back after these words from our sponsors. Hey it's Ben Bailey Smith here, Substitute Taker and this episode is brought to you by

better help. Now a lot of us spend our lives wishing we had more time. If I had an extra hour slotted into my day I'd actually get through a question, shmessions, you know, it's I can never quite fit the extra shows in. We all live busy lives these days and everything seems to move at a hundred miles an hour so how do we know what to make room for? Like how do we know what's really important when our lives are happening so quickly? Therapy can help you find what matters to you and if you know what matters to you, you can do more of it. Isn't that why we're really here? If you're thinking of starting therapy, give Better Health Petrites, entirely online and it's designed to be convenient, flexible and suited to your schedule. With over a thousand

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See if you recognize who this is. A good king knows when to save his strength and when to destroy his enemies. So you agree? The Starks are enemies. Everyone who isn't us is an enemy. We're going to be joined by the one, the only Cersei, Lannister. Mmm. Yeah, from the mighty Game of Thrones. You resisted this for ages, didn't you? Oh my god, for years. I've only just watched it.

You've only just watched it? Yeah, yeah, for the first time ever I watched it, well, in between shrinks, like in the break from Shrink the Box. Well, the shrinkers were saying. Never fancied it. And? Took me a long time to just let go and run with it. It's absolute nonsense in the best possible way. Brilliant nonsense. Shakespearean levels

of nonsense. I mean Cersei is something to behold isn't she? It's all about power and influence with her and of course she has a lot of dark secrets. Can't wait to dig in. Where can people watch it, easy? Justwatch.com for where to find it. And we'll do series one, which is interesting for Cersei. Just keep it there. Series one, classic, vintage Shrink the Box. Do follow us on Apple podcasts or Spotify, Amazon Music,

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And as you've heard, we've been using clips throughout the pod. Full credits and useful links are all going to be in the show notes of this episode. And just a little reminder that we're going to be putting a running list of shows and characters that we'll be covering in future episodes in the show notes, so you can get watching and we'll all be in the same wheelhouse. How did you find your first run around the old Shrink the Box warehouse? I know, it made me a bit more limbering up for next time. Really good fun, thank you very much for having me and I'm thrilled that you might invite

me back. I think, I think, I've got to have a couple of conversations, but I think we might see you next week. Spoiler alert. All right, thanks, Namaan. See you soon. Ta-da.