Kermode & Mayo’s Take - SHRINK THE BOX: 1: The Sopranos - Tony Soprano

Episode Date: January 31, 2023

Unravelling the complex (and surprisingly endearing) layers of the OG mobster: Mr Tony Soprano, all roads lead to New Jersey on the first episode of Shrink the Box! We find out why talking to a therapist is a ‘whackable’ offence, how falling in love with your shrink is not THAT uncommon and why his mother, Livia Soprano could be the real villain of the show. Don’t forget to check out Season 1 of The Sopranos to avoid spoilers. If you enjoyed delving deeper into the world of Tony, be sure to follow Shrink The Box so you don’t miss future episodes. https://listen.sonymusic-podcasts.link/ARAR32077 Do you have a character suggestion for us? Get in touch! Please email [e-mail] If you have been affected by any of the issues discussed in this episode: For the UK, call SAMARITANS on 116 123 samaritans.org/how-we-can-help/contact-samaritan. Internationally: https://www.befrienders.org/. For UK help via talking therapies contact your GP or the British Association for Counselling and Psychotherapy bacp.co.uk Shrink The Box is a Somethin’ Else Production with Sony Music Entertainment. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Metrolinx and cross-links are reminding everyone to be careful as Eglinton Cross-town LRT train testing is in progress. Please be alert as trains can pass at any time on the tracks. Remember to follow all traffic signals. Be careful along our tracks and only make left turns where it's safe to do so. Be alert, be aware, and stay safe. We need to be 110% sure. I want you to see it. I want you to see that f***ing wire strapped on his body. I want you to see it. You hear me? I want you to see it. Otherwise all bets are off.

You understand? Hmm. This is our friend we're talking about here. Hello, I'm Ben Bailey Smith. And I'm Sasha Bates. And I can't believe how excited I am about this. I mean, I've been offered so many rubbish ideas for podcasts. Things that you've heard a million times before and this I think is something else for

real. So, it really, it really excites me to say welcome for the first time to the brand new podcast Shrink the Box. This, this my friends is the podcast where we put our favorite fictional characters from the biggest TV shows into therapy. We're sticking them on the couch. The likes of Fleabag, a Beth Harman from the Queen's Gambit, Omar, Omar Little from the Wire. Imagine him on the couch for a two o'clock and try to uncover why their behavior can be so fascinating. Sasha here is an integrative psychotherapist.

She's the expert. I'm just an actor and a script writer, and I know a bit about building story and bringing characters to life. Also know a little bit about being in therapy. I am a client. I feel like we've got all bases covered, Sasha, you know? At the top there, we heard a clip from what? That was, of course, the superannos, which I can't believe was actually back in 1999 when it first came out on HBO. Unbelievable. I mean, that's a different lifetime, isn't it?

1999. And it's widely regarded as one of the greatest and most influential television series of all time, winning 21 Emmys. It is my favorite show of all time because it has everything that I love. It makes me laugh, out loud, it's incredibly dark. Honest, the acting is off the scale, the writing is phenomenal, economic and yet deep. I rewatched the entire

six, six and a half and people never know where it's six or seven seasons, but I watched it all again recently. I don't think there's any other show I would do that with. It felt like putting an old album on. I agree. I only rewatched the first series and that's the only one we're going to be talking about today. But I also couldn't, I hadn't forgotten how funny it is. It's funny. It's hilarious. It's so funny.

And also how much I love Tony Super-Hono and it feels like this guilty pleasure. It hits a more bossy kills people. He's ruthless, but we all kind of fell in a more bossy, kills people, he's ruthless, but we all kind of fell in love with him. So the mole didn't it in terms of that? Yeah, yeah, I've been loving someone who's horrible. Now that's like, just every series is like that.

You know, it's Dexter, he's, I'm sorry, he's a serial killer, you know. But it's none of it could happen with that. No, exactly. And that's why I think it's so clever because we sort of trace the steps from what made that innocent little boy You know, we all sort of start off innocent and then we see all the various kind of things that happen to us that can turn us into quite

Screwed our bad else. I mean the other thing that's really interesting is that he is actually in therapy himself So we're kind of getting a bit of a a metal Yeah, this is going to be a metal we contouring the box The box has no doubt about that. Yeah, and we see the power of his mother. We see the power of parenting and the effect that can have on somebody. Yeah, and that really was the essence of the show. I mean, originally it was going to be about a TV producer and his impossible mother, which was, you know, just David Chase's experience.

But he just said, who wants to watch that? So they just stuck it in a mob world because that was another sort of Italian-American world. And David Chase was Italian-American. It's not really even about being in the mob. It is about Tony and his relationships. I mean, he's a father, he's a son, he goes to work every day and it's about the relationships that he has with the people he works with. They just happen

to be mobsters, but we can all relate and that's what's so weird is we can totally relate to so much of what he and his family go through, even though hopefully most of us aren't faced with quite the same decisions. Yeah. Yeah. What I really liked about it, because when I watched it back in 1999, as we've established or 2000 over here, I wasn't a therapist about that. And so I didn't have a clue whether it was realistic his sessions. Now that I'm watching it through the lens of being a therapist, I can see that actually it's amazingly truthful. So, all right, it's time to get inside the mind of TV's most famous mobster, Anthony Soprano.

We should say there's going to be spoilers galore in our discussions, I'm sorry, in advance and there's going to be some adult language because mobsters. So before you can say badder bing, what do you hear? What do you say? Welcome to shrink the box. Give us the low down on your new client, Anthony Soprano. He is a married father of two. He's approaching 40, we think. His wife is Carmella, he's got his teenage daughter called Meadow and a son called AJ. They live in New Jersey, he's got his mother, Livya, living quite close by.

She's a caution, that one, as we all come to see. He runs a waste management company, which is of course just a front for many, many illegal activities that he is really running. He has an uncle called Junior, also called Corrado, who over the course of the series rises to boss. But there's a bit of a power struggle going on there between the two of them. And yeah, he's been having panic attacks, and that leads him to go and seek the help of Dr. Melfi.

Which is a huge shout, right? No, it's huge. Yeah. You can't show vulnerability in their profession. So, let's have a listen to Tony in Fullflow. Nowadays everybody's got to go to shrinks and counsellors and go on Sally Jesse Raphael and talk about their problems What ever happened to

Gary Cooper the strong silent time That was an American he wasn't in touch with his feelings. He just did what he had to do So he what they didn't know was once they got Gary Cooper in touch with his feelings that they wouldn't be able to shut him up And then it's dysfunctionist and it's dysfunctionate, it's dysfunctional, my fungal. You have strong feelings about this. Let me tell you something. I have a semester and a half of college. So I understand Freud.

I understand therapy as a concept. But in my world, it does not go down. Can I be happier? Yeah. Yeah. Who couldn't? Do you feel depressed? Since the ducks left. It's incredible.

I just transported straight back. That was of course the amazing James Gandalfini playing Tony Suprano there and then Lorraine Braco. As Dr. Melfi, that was episode one pilot of the Suprano's series one written and directed by the creator, David Chase, as made by HBO and available on Amazon Prime, Apple TV or Sky. We'll give you full credits for all the clips at the end of this podcast, but I mean, that really does set it up, you know, and as he was talking, I thought, it's not just about him, I mean, it is just about him

as he's speaking, the character speaking, but in terms of, it feels like a sort of metaphor for where America, where the writer felt America was perhaps heading as well as the sort of end of an age of innocence. What do you think is the first thing he'd be presenting to you and in presenting, I mean, the initial problem that causes someone to seek help?

What we first see about him is that he has been having panic attacks. That's his presenting issue that completely disorientates him because he's not used to not being in control. But this often happens. And I mean, I love that clip. He sort of makes fun of Freud, he's done a semester and a half, so he understands Freud. He's a master in law. But, you know, he makes fun of him, but actually this notion that the subconscious is giving us

messages that our conscious mind doesn't want to hear. I mean, we see that throughout the series. And one of the ways that the subconscious comes knocking if we really don't want to listen is through the body. It's called somatization. It is the body showing us what our minds don't want to let in. And the panic attack is exactly that. His mind won't let him entertain the fact that maybe he's feeling depressed, maybe he's feeling a bit more vulnerable,

maybe he's not a Gary Cooper, maybe it's back in the time when men were men, you know, maybe that's not actually something he can live up to or would want to. So his body tells him, and we see other examples of somatization later, much later when Pussy, one of the other capos, one of the guys that works for him, he has a really bad back. Melphie explains that having a bad back can actually be a physical depiction of your caring too big a burden. There's too much stress, your back literally can't hold it, and it can also be the burden of carrying secrets. And that will be an important part of the

story, this hiding of secrets. You know, we're all quite familiar with the notion that if we're nervous, we get, you know, butterflies in our tummy or if we're nervous, we get butterflies in our tummy or if we're in Paris, we go red. We accept that our body will show things about us or give us messages. But then when it gets to bigger things like a panic attack, we don't want to think that, oh, this is our body telling us something, it's going to be completely, everyone wants to separate the physiological and the psychological, but they're completely interlinked. If our conscious minds can't get us to articulate what's going on, our body, which is so much more clever than we give it, credit for, that'll show us, you've got to address this, you've got to look at the unhappiness that's there.

But the first thing that troubles him is some ducks land in his swimming pool. Yeah, one of the first interpretations that Mel Fee makes is to link up the panic attack with what he'd been doing just before and he was watching these ducks fly away. And I think they're really good symbol of the sort of turmoil in his mind in a way because I think that a lot of that is to do with I think the kind of loss of values, loss of family that he's confronting. That's a lot of, you know, men in there approaching 40 do. They have a bit of a midlife crisis about all that they're losing.

And the ducts flying away, in a way symbolize everything that's flying away and out of his life. If we were to look at the sort of therapeutic relationship between Tony and Melfi, why did he choose to see her at all, given the risks of a mobster telling, oh, I mean, not just in terms of indicting himself, but other guys finding out, like that's like a whackable offense. Yeah, well, I mean, I think he is slightly

at the end of his tear, though. And I think he recognizes that he does need help and that he can't get there on his own if he wants to kind of stop having the panic attacks, stop feeling depressed, stop feeling so hopeless all the time. I also think that it's quite a good sort of metaphor for how dangerous many people feel going into therapy is, I mean he has a very real and concrete reason for it feeling threatening that yes, he could get whacked if people found out. But I think a lot of us, that danger feels very present, that what if I find out something, what if I open a door that I don't want to see

what is behind. So being in therapy can feel really dangerous to a lot of people. I can feel anxious about going into therapy just with a new therapist. I completely get that. It is really frightening to go and tell you all kind of deepest darker secrets and reveal your vulnerabilities to a stranger. And that's why it's so important to build trust. And we can see it through the relationship of Tony and Dr. Melfi that that's like the first task, that's the first task of any therapist is to hope that they can start to trust you. His wife, Carmella, is very supportive of this process,

but right from the opposite, she assumes that it's a man and he very pointedly does and correct her. People often do fall in love with their therapists. It's a very common occurrence. It's called the erotic transference. But in a way, it's sort of almost necessary because you need to trust your therapist. If you're to get anywhere, you do need to trust them. And in the process of building that trust, it might be for many people. The first time anybody's actually

listened to them has made them feel safe enough to admit to their foibles. And it can be very easy to confuse that feeling of safety and care and concern with sexual love, because a lot of people, the only time they've ever had intimacy with a member of the opposite sex, or obviously the same sex if you're not straight, then you don't understand what it is you're feeling. You don't understand that this is just a safe attachment, intimate relationship.

You think, oh, it must be sexual. I dream about you. I think about you all the time. I can't get excited about any other woman. There's nothing else to say. I love you. Let me start here. I know this may be very hard for you to swallow,

but you're only feeling this way because we've made such progress. What? I've been gentle. That's my job. I listen. That's what I do best. I've been a broad, generic, sympathetic woman to you because that's what this work calls for. You've made me. All of the things you feel are missing in your wife. And in your mother.

So yeah, it's a common thing for people to fall in love with their therapist. As Tony does indeed go on to do so in a way, in a way, Kamala's almost right to be jealous. From the jump, he's a tricky, very tricky client. And he's used to lying. I mean, he lies for a living. That's what he does. He lies to his own children. We see that very early on him lying to his very savvy, very smart daughter. But yeah, not somebody you'd necessarily

feel 100% safe having on the couch. Let's hear a little clip of Tony crossing an early boundary. Jess, so you understand that I have to charge you for the mist session? What are you talking about? We agreed on that on our very first meeting. I know what I just explained to you in my situation. I understand, but it's important that we respect the agreement. What if I got hit by a car?

But you weren't. I know, but what if? But you weren't. I know that, but what if? You weren't. Why don't you answer my fucking question? I will not. You won't.

All right, fine. Fine. Here. Here you go. Of course, this is what it's all about, right? Mother fucking car, sucking money. Fine. Here you go. Of course, this is what it's all about, right? Mother fucking cock, sucking money. Here. I don't understand that comment, and I don't appreciate being made to feel afraid.

I don't appreciate feeling like I pull my heart out to a fucking call girl. Is that how you see me? Not until now. But it's obvious you don't give a shit about my situation or what's happening with me. Otherwise, won't be shaking me down. It'll show this pain on your next month's bill. Fine.

Stick it up your ass. Numerous boundary crosses there. The discomfort and the anger around the payment. Tony's revealing something here next to Melphee, but what exactly is it, do you think? Boundaries is a really important, really interesting concept in therapy, and they're really necessary and it's kind of counterintuitive in a way that the thing that he feels as showing that there isn't any trust in the relationship is actually a way of building trust because she holds the line.

She's not to be swayed, she's not going to be seduced. She's not going to be flirted with. She's not going to be bought off with coffees or compliments. And that is one of the ways in which he realises he gets to see, oh, she is reliable. I can't treat her like I treat everyone else in my life. And even the one with insisting that he pays for the miss session, it is important that she holds that boundary because if she gives way on any one little thing, he will start to think, oh, she's not a reliable, safe parent because that is also another dynamic,

is that it's in a way it's a reparative relationship, people that haven't been adequately parented, which actually is most of us, this isn't any slower than anybody's parents because people who are parents can never get it all right. There's always going to be slips. And we're always all going to then have to kind of deal with the feelings that we felt weren't mirrored back to us.

He had particularly bad parenting, and Melfi has to sort of stand in local parenthesis in a way. She has to show him that a parent can be good, can be reliable, can be reliable, can be trustworthy. Some of the threatening behaviour we see from him, I'm guessing a lot of therapists would say, I'm just not doing this, but Melfi is there sympathy there, is there some kind of Italian-American bonding going on, there's something else going on, isn't there?

Because the way that he behaves is kind of unacceptable. Well, do you know what? I think most therapists would be okay with that. Really? Okay, so that goes to show you how little I know. I just seemed crazy to me. I haven't had a client who is literally a criminal, but if you hold a boundary, they will get angry at us. And that's part of

the therapy. And part of being a therapist is being able to hold somebody's anger. For many people, the only response they've ever had to their anger is for the other person to either collapse or to retaliate. So they'll either collapse and say, oh God, don't be so mean. And I'm so sorry. And it's all my fault. Or they'll retaliate. They'll, you know, fuck you, you know, how dare you talk to me like that. And not many people have had an experience of having their anger met, which is one of the reasons why anger's such a shameful emotion. So for therapists to actually just hold the anger, to not collapse, not retaliate, just

say, yeah, I see that you're angry and that's an appropriate response. You can be angry, but I'm not budgeting. It's exactly what she does, as always, and it's she says, you feel very strongly about this. I can tell. No. Sasha, we've talked about panic attacks and some issues that occur in real therapy,

but what would be Tony's next presentation that you'd like to address? Well, he's pretty depressed. I think that's pretty clear. He seems to have lost his mojo. He's not that excited by anything. And it is the eroding values, I think, surrounding him and his lack of trust in his soldiers. They are less reliable than they once were. And he's got this really interesting competition with his uncle, Junior, who as the series starts, they're equal. They're both capos. One of them is going to become mob boss after the ruling mob boss, Jackie dies, which he's about to do from cancer, which is actually another reason why Tony's depressed, because I think

Jackie has been a bit of a role model to him, a bit of a father figure. He slightly idealises him and he's on the point of death. And Junior and he, they have this really sort of nitpicking little relationship. They're always sort of getting a teach out there and trying to get a bit of one upmanship. There's nothing very comfortable in his world. He has a lot of dreams about being impotent as well. That comes up a lot, I'm thinking, in one

dream he dreams, one of his ducks, his recurring, mostly fly off with his penis. And obviously impotence is, I have got no power over my own life. He's lost sort of agency. He doesn't feel powerful. We sort of kind of seem start to build trust in Melfi. There are a few funny little examples of that process happening. I've definitely done this where not even just in therapy, but when you come into contact with somebody who seems more together than the news, you almost feel attracted to them, not in the traditional sense, but you might mirror some of the behaviors or advice or things that they say. Yeah, it's called internalization.

Again, it mirrors the relationship between a parent and a child. So children learn how to be through their parents, and you can hear them echoing the things that their parents say and do. It's the same with the therapist. As you start to think, oh no, this person knows what they're talking about. One would hope. You can start to talk like they talk, try and do the behaviors that you've seen them, their model. I mean, there's a really funny one where Mel Feet talks about the hotel at the Capillon T. And Tony wants to talk about this laterally, cause it captained you, but it's something it's very funny. So he's a retirement community. Yeah.

You can see him with his kids. He starts to say, how are you feeling about that? So she's having an effect. He's learning that opening up to her, being heard, is something that he's valuing, and he tries to offer that to his kids. So yeah, there's also like a bit of boundary crossing from the other direction, isn't there?

Because there's a moment where Melfi goes and has dinner at Tony and Carmella's neighbors, the Kusomanos, the Italian doctor and his wife who live next door. Parley says she can spy on him through the toilet window. I mean, she's crossed the line there, surely. It is, and I would hope that no real therapist would do that, but I like the kind of the symbolism of it, because therapists do get intrigued by their clients.

They do want to know more. I mean, it's partly why we go into the profession, because we really want to get to know people. Clients aren't just a paycheck. You do kind of take them home with you in a sense, in that you carry on thinking about them after they've gone. You're always thinking about how can I help them more. So they do kind of go home with you in a way.

And in fact further down the line, we see some mirroring in the other direction. She becomes a bit more aggressive. She comes very defensive of the Italian working class. She's very invested in him. When her family, you know, she talks about him, not him as him, she anonymises him, which again, hopefully a real therapist wouldn't do that, but for dramatic purposes. When her family try and persuade her not to have him as a client, she says, no, I am, I'm there for him. Fascinating, staff man. One of the greatest series of all time,

if not the, in my opinion. And after this break, we're gonna remind ourselves what Dr. Malfey says that makes Tony grab her by the throat, the ulton of boundary crust. But first, yeah, I don't know, tuck into some big ziti or acanoli or two. And we'll see you after the break. Well, no fucking ZD now.

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the link is in the podcast episode description box. Hi, esteem podcast listeners, Simon Mayow. And Mark Kermot here. I'm excited to let you know that the new season of the Crown and the Crown, the official podcast returns on 16th of November to accompany the sixth and final season of the Netflix epic Royal Drama series. Very exciting, especially because SuperSub and Friend of the Show Edith Bowman hosts this one. Indeed, Edith will take you behind the scenes,

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And we are back. So this is the big one. Sasha, what is it? Dr. Malfi says to Tony, that makes him absolutely lose it? Well, over the course of the therapy, what becomes very apparent is how influential his mother has been and continues to be in his life.

And Tony does not want to accept that she could be the cause of some of his major issues. And Melfi keeps pushing and pushing and trying to get Tony to see that his mother is possibly not the saint that he called her early on. I mean, he knows she isn't. I mean, he complains about her left-right and centre. So he knows she's no saint really. But he still feels that he's the son. he should look after her, she's worthy of care, that she has his best interests at heart. But it becomes increasingly apparent through the flashbacks that we see. That's not necessarily the case. She's actually really sadistic, she actually genuinely does want

to harm him, and there's a couple of instances that we see in flashback when he was younger. She said, what? She was high strong, my mother, very dramatic. And every night, the hoes and night at the opera. I could stick this fucking your eye. She wasn't gonna do it. I mean, it's awful. I always would get drama.

Yeah, well, yeah, but you know, for a young child, it feels like absolutely terrifying, because as children, our parents represent survival. If our parents aren't going to look after us, we can't look after ourselves. And so they take on huge importance. And there's a bit actually with Carmella saying, you're as mother, you know the power you have. So there's actually really interesting theory called the moral defense, which explains why

children will and as adults will continue to stick up for their parents long after they've realized that they're probably not worth sticking up for. And that's because children would rather see themselves as bad and their mothers or their parents is good because otherwise it's almost like that way lies madness. If I'm a child, I rely on my mother or my father for everything and they're not up to the job. If they can't do it, then that way lies chaos. So it's easier to think, okay, it must be me that's bad. She can't be bad because she have, I have to believe in her God-like power.

It must be me. You become an adult and you don't physically need them or depend on them to survive. Yeah. You still prefer to think of it that way around. It's easier because then it's in your control. If you think I'm the bad one, there's always the possibility that, oh, if I can just change, if I can just stay controlled, if I can make things right, if I can be a better son, then yeah, these patterns run really deep. It's

really hard to get out of the habit of thinking that your parent isn't doing their best job because to know that they're not doing a good job, that they're not up to it, is really finding. And just to remind everyone, Tony is broken and furious and doesn't believe until he hears taped proof from the FBI that his own mother was setting him up to be whacked. And he says, you know, that's what I was tear-joking line of, you know, what kind of person can I be there? His own mother once him did. No, it's horrific. was tear-joking line of, you know, what kind of person can I be that is her mother once she did? No, it's horrific.

What could that do to a person? I think you started off saying, what is it that makes him lunge across the room practically take a bite of the throat? And it is that awful realization that she's right. He gets angry, he'd rather get angry at Melfy for even suggesting it. And it is literally only when he hears the FBI's tape that he has to

has to take it on board. So I think it's absolutely devastating. But also what it can do is then liberate him because he realizes that he has been living at life. He's been supporting this woman, he's been defending this woman and actually she wasn't worth defending. So it can liberate him to say, okay, now I can see I'm not the really bad person that I thought I was. I can actually change. I don't have to stick with the lie that I've been living under, that I'm terrible. And is this a sort of penny-dropping moment that's often hard one in therapy?

Yeah, I think it's a massive, massive insight. It is rare, but there are some people who probably, due to their own upbringing, do not know how to love their own children, who are envious of their own children, who can't bear to see their children be loved and become lovable, because they never experienced that. So their envy is so great that they feel they want to destroy them. These are people who exist and have existed for generations within families of murderers. Right?

Their parents, their uncles, aunts, their murderers or murderers associates, and they've kept it in the family for generations. And we see that difference throughout all six, seven series of the, of the, the sopranos between quotes on quotes, normal Italian Americans. And mobsters. She is clearly a very messed up woman. And she doesn't know how to love. There's a terrifying moment isn't there when he confronts her about what he now believes to be true in the hospital.

Her face is partly obscured by an oxygen mask. And he's letting it all out. All the home truths, how could you do this to me, that kind of thing? And it looks, it can't be 100% certain because the mask partly obscures her face, but it looks like she's smiling and I just and it's one of the most terrifying moments outside of a horror movie that I've ever seen

But yeah, I did have this kind of fist pump moment for Tony like the little boy Tony because he had the the cajoonas as they might say to confront one of his biggest demons. So is therapy helping Tony or not? I think it is. I think he's really changing as who results off it. I mean, we already saw that his language is changing, his ability to relate to his children. I didn't kill the football coach, did he? Yeah, exactly. I'm talking about a killed him. Yeah, I think that's one of the biggest examples of how he's changing.

There's a point in the series where it becomes apparent that the football coach has been molesting one of the players and all the fathers, or of course, well, and the mothers, are mergerous with rage and Tony literally wants to murder him. And is it, you know, he's at the point where he has someone stationed at the house outside the house about to do it? But over the course of the evening, his sort of long stop night of the soul, he comes to the right decision, we're not going to kill him. And I don't think that would have happened without therapy. He wouldn't have had the sort of the self-awareness and the ability to reflect and the ability to see there was another

way. So there's a real moral maze that the sopranos takes us even deeper into off the back of this idea that therapy is helping Tony because, you know, we've just looked at something really positive that he's got out of it. But the deeper he gets into therapy, the more he realizes that there are certain strategic elements that he can use within his illegal business. The undoubtedly for me have sort of been born out of Melphys very mature, very experienced, very smart and sage guidance and therapy, you know. That problem is actually addressed explicitly in a later season, I remember where Melphys own therapist suggests from this study that having a criminal in therapy, all it really does

is help them become a better criminal, which is this kind of moral thing that a lot of, there's a scene I remember with a whole bunch of psych therapists actually arguing about whether this is or isn't the case and you see Melfee's moral quandary. Is she also helping him potentially become a terrible person? I think what she gives him is the opportunities to have choices. And that's what therapy gives us.

We can choose different paths. We're not so ingrained in, I can only follow this path because I'm being led by my unconscious and I don't know why I'm doing it and I'm just going to act the way I always do. By bringing the unconscious up into consciousness, it gives you more choices. I can see what I'm doing. Of course, then, it's up to you what you then do with that choice. The therapist can, you know, talk until they're blue in the face, but it's still up to the client to then use that information.

He can still carry on making the choices he made, but at least it's a choice, at least he now knows he's making that choice. You can't make anybody do anything differently. You can help them to the awareness of what they're doing, but they still have to choose the path of morality or immorality in his case. I think she's empowering him. He chooses how to then use that power. Yeah, and unfortunately the power he wields is pretty terrifying.

Yeah, I mean, in that first season, you do feel that he could take a different path. It feels like that is the real pivotal moment discovering the truth about his mother. I mean, at that point, he could say, do you know what? I don't have to be like this anymore. He doesn't. I mean, at that point, he could say, do you know what, I don't have to be like this anymore? He doesn't, I mean, the later seasons that he showed that he doesn't, he doesn't choose that other path. And you can see why. I mean, it's all very well again, having the awareness and the self-knowledge, but his whole life is wrapped up in the mob. There's no escape really for him unless he wants to go and go off into witness protection and live a boring suburban life. Do you ever tell anybody about me going to see Melfi?

Is that why they tried to kill you because you're seeing a psychiatrist? What are you talking about? I was a card jacket. At least have the decency not to lie to me. What do you want to do, Kamela? You want to move to Utah? We missed your Mrsus, Mike Smith. We could sell some Indian relics by the road. Maybe start a rattlesnake, Rach. This is our chance to get out, Tony.

We could start a whole new life. I have some moments over the dinner. Eat some tomatoes. I have no taste. You know what, Tony? I want those kids to have a father. They got one. This one. Me. Tony's soprano. and all that comes with it. Oh, you prick. There's no way he can live that life. He likes the lifestyle and she likes the lifestyle. And he does, she does, yeah.

Yeah. She's so good at eating falcona, Siri. I think she's my favorite actor in the whole show. She's fabulous. I'd love to do an episode on Carmella. Phenomenal. Yeah, that character's fast name. Yeah. Well, maybe we should. I think we should. I mean, you guys out there listening, you can help us with all of this stuff because, you know, I mean, we're nothing. We're nothing without you. So any characters you'd like to see in therapy, including Carmella, because we'd both love to get her on the couch. Any other thoughts you have on what we said so far, please do email us at shrinkthebox at something else.com.

That's shrink the box at something without the G because we're getting into our new Jersey vibe here this week. Something else.com. And please do follow us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, Amazon, wherever you get your podcasts and get the new episodes and share them with your friends. Leave us a little review. Let us know what you think about the show.

And if you wanna listen to String the Box, add free, like a true G, then subscribe to Extra Takes. Your subscription gets you add free episodes of this show. Plus, add free episodes and access to weekly subscriber, exclusive extra episodes from our good friends over at Curmo and Mayo's Take. So start your free trial now by clicking try free at the top of the shrink the box show page on Apple podcasts or by visiting extra takes.com.

And thank you to our top production team. Production management is Lily Hambley, the assistant producer is Basha Erton. Social media is Jonathan Imiere, the recording and mix engineer is got a vertical. The senior producer is Selena Reem and the executive producer is Simon Paul. Sasha are drum roll. Who are we covering next time? Well, in 2019, Taw Show host Dan Patrick has a conversation about the sopranos with a well-the-famous guest and it leads us straight to our next client. See if you recognize who's being interviewed here. Would breaking bad have been made if we didn't have the sopranos?

I don't think so. I think what they were able to David Chase was able to do and creating a character they were able to David Chase was able to do and creating a character like Tony soprano was certainly paving the way to allow the space for someone like Walter White to exist. Yeah, it was it was groundbreaking. Oh my lord, it's everybody's favorite wife front wearer. Walter White, the unmistakable voice of Brian Cranston, cannot wait for that. Yes, the lineage of the antihero continues. We will be looking at many aspects of Walter's behaviour and that's going to include his realisation of his mortality, how he accesses very successfully, far too successfully, his shadow side and the revenge of the nerd. Oh man, that's gonna be awesome. I'm off to watch Breaking Bad season one then tonight.

Did you know, according to the Urban Dictionary, to break bad is to give up on typical moral and social norms and go with one's own path regardless of the legality of your ethics? I never knew that. I didn't know that either, but yeah, that makes complete sense. But did you know that Heisenberg was a German theoretical physicist and one of the pioneers of quantum mechanics?

Well, I wouldn't have known that unless I watched a series. It is revealed somewhere in the last season as I recall. And that was, of course, his drug lord name. But yeah, I think you win with the more interesting fact. And I think break bad is definitely something on the Americans would say, isn't it? I think so. I can't imagine. I can't imagine he said to you,

oh, sash, I've done it again. I've broken bad. No, it doesn't sound right in an English accent. No, no. All right, well, we'll see you for more naughtiness on the couch next week. Tata. Bye.

Now, for those of you who want to watch the brilliant sopranos moments featured in our podcast, here's where you can find them. Now, the opening clip at the top is where Tony, played by James Gandalfini, of course, talks to Pauli, played by the incredible Tony Sirico, at the Battle Bing from episode 11, nobody knows anything. It was written by David Chase and Frank Renzouli, and the director is Henry Brongteen. The clip where Tony says he loves Dr. Melfi. That's Pac-Suprana, episode 6, incredible episode written by David Chase and Frank Renzouli, directed by Alan Taylor. Tony getting angry about the payment to Melfi is the legend of Tennessee Maltesanti, episode 8. It's written by David

Chase and Frank Renzouli, directed by Timothy Van Patten. Livya, played by the unforgettable fantastic Nancy Marte Shund, wanting to stick a fork in Tony's eye. That's from Downic, episode 7, written by David Chase, Mitchell Burgess and Robin Green, directed by Lorraine Sinner. Finally Carmella, played by the wonderful Edie Falco, asking Tony about witness protection is from episode 12, Isabella. The writers of David Chase, Mitchell Burgess and Robin Green, and that was directed by Alan Coulter.

All our clips are from the soprano series one. The lead writer and creator is David Chase, and it's produced by Chase Films, Brad Gray television, soprano productions incorporated, Rural Steen Entertainment Partners, and Home Box Office, better known as HBO. All episodes are available on Amazon Prime, Apple TV, Sky, or go to justwatch.com for more streaming providers.

Thank you for listening, and see you next week. Bye or go to justwatch.com for more streaming providers. Thank you for listening and see you next week.