Kermode & Mayo’s Take - Steve McQueen and Bianca Stigter, Occupied City, Your Fat Friend & The Iron Claw

Episode Date: February 9, 2024

This week, Steve McQueen and his wife, historian, filmmaker and producer Bianca Stigter, are in the studio to chat with Simon about ‘Occupied City’, their four-hour documentary about the Nazi occupation of Amsterdam from 1940-45, which is based on Stigter’s book on the subject. Mark gives his thoughts on the film, along with reviewing ‘Your Fat Friend’, a documentary that charts the rise of writer and activist Aubrey Gordon from anonymous blogger to NYTimes best-selling author and podcaster, whose goal is to shift the way we see fat people in the world and the fat on our own bodies; and ‘The Iron Claw’, the Zac Efron-starring true story of the Von Erich brothers, who made history in the intensely competitive world of professional wrestling in the early 1980s. Plus, we find out about the exciting cinematic events happening around the UK. Timecodes (relevant only for the Vanguard - who are also ad-free!): 08:44 Your Fat Friend review 19:00 Box Office Top 10 34:00 Steve McQueen and Bianca Stigter interview 49:32 Occupied City review 59:03 Laughter Lift 01:01:49 The Iron Claw review 01:08:00 What’s On You can contact the show by emailing [e-mail] or you can find us on social media, @KermodeandMayo EXCLUSIVE NordVPN Deal ➼ https://nordvpn.com/take Try it risk-free now with a 30-day money-back guarantee! A Sony Music Entertainment production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts and follow us @sonypodcasts To advertise on this show contact: [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Now, as Duke Lister's will notice that Mark is just finishing off the pastry. I just want to mention that the pastry is gone. I know, it's finishing off the pastry. There you go. That's what I said. So, the thing, one of the reasons why I enjoy coming in every time to do this podcast is that it's- Spend time with me. It's the pastry, it's the by pastry of the week.

It is. And it's a real treat. So we start the day with a pastry. We do. And what is your pastry of choice? Well, I like a panorazen. Panorazen. I like a panorazen.

Panorazen, that's right. And what is the best bakery you've ever visited? Well, I want to go to the one that you recommended in Copenhagen, which was called? Oh, the Juno Bakery. The Juno Bakery. I think we could probably go and do a show there from the Juno Bakery in Copenhagen.

And just, so I just want to be able to present you with a plate of pastries. Cause it's just a great way to start the day, not every day, but you know, it's... But you said that the way they do it is it's like, it's like a kind of an array of pastries, isn't it? Yeah, well, you know, so, but it's one of those, you can't just eat one.

Normally you have a quesadilla, yeah, that's enough. I've just finished the panorama. I don't really want another one, although I'm still a bit hungry, but at the Juno croissant and go, yeah, that's enough. I've just finished the panorama. I don't really want another one, although I'm still a bit hungry. But at the Judo, you just go, okay, I'll have a little bit of that and that. Oh, can I have some of that? Oh, okay, and you've had like six before you've left.

There's a place in Golden Square. I don't know if it's still the, what's it called, the Danish, but the Swedish? No, closed down. Is it closed down? Was it called the Swedish baker or the? Norwegian. The Norwegian baker or Dutch. It's all Scandinavian. Was it called the Danish but the Swedish closed down is it closed down was it was it called the Swedish Baker of the Norwegian The Norwegian Baker or Dutch it's all Scandinavia

And they used to have all the if you were ever going to meet with the observer editors They would always meet you there was it called the scan was what was it called? Don't know it's gone anyway Don't know anyway, whatever it was and but they used to do pastries there that had a greater mass than a black hole So you take it you put it on a plate and it would almost fall through the floor And but they used to do pastries there that had a greater mass than a black hole. So you take it, you put it on a plate and it would almost fall through the floor. It was so dense.

That's it, they were cinnamon buns. I used to buy them. Cinnamon buns, that's right. Nordic, the Nordic bakery, thank you. And I used to buy a bunch on Fridays to hand out at Scala. Oh, did you? And they always used to look forward to it. But the weight of the building increased.

It's like literally, you think, oh, that looks absolutely delicious and you have one bite of it and you realize that your body cannot take any more substance in the toilet. So actually, that's probably the healthier option to have one of those because you think, no, I can't. I couldn't put this post to the June. That's the only time I have ever not finished a pastry. Oh, really? Yes. Oh, okay.

In the Nordic bakery. Well, let's take the show to Copenhagen. I think that's a great, very, very good idea. I'll put that to the editor. He's looking. Oh, that's right. He's going anyway. He's going anyway on holiday.

Okay. Well, he could do a little recce. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Thanks, Rhett. Pastry correspondent will suit you fine. Anyway, you're very welcome to another podcast for us. There's two that have just arrived. There's Take Two.

I don't know what's happening in that one because we haven't done it yet. But this is Take One, so this is like the most important one. It is. What are you about to do, by the way? What about, you're about to perform, I know. I'm going to review some films.

The new documentary by Jeannie Finley, Your Fat Friend, The Iron Claw, which is based on a true story of a resting family dynasty and occupied city with our special guests. Yes, Steve McQueen and Bianca Stigter. They are both producers of the film. Steve is the director of the film. It came from a book which Bianca had written

and they're also an item, so they have a lot to say. And you'll hear from Steve McQueen and Bianca Stigter both in take one and in take two because there's so much to talk about and it is the longest film I think I've seen ever. It's four hours 20 with an intermission. So lots to talk about with Steve McQueen and Bianca Stigter later also in our other one that we haven't done yet. Take it or leave it you decide what have you looked at. later also in our other one that we haven't done yet. Take it or leave it, you decide. What have you looked at?

Fargo season five. What about Fargo seasons one to four? No, I started season one and kind of lost interest. So I've just gone straight into Fargo season five, but it's a standalone story. Also some extra reviews. Yes, of the Settlers, Las Colanas, Gastop, which is a British movie, and It Happen

One Night, which is getting a Valentine's reissue. Oh, how lovely. Plot Smash will be back where Mark has to guess which three films have been smashed together. One frame back, films about wrestling inspired by the Iron Claw, and you can access everything via Apple Podcasts or head to ExtraTakes.com for non-fruit related devices. Also, another quick reminder to say we are back on Letterboxed. Follow us at Kermit and Mayo for everything take related. How's your Letterboxed input and output? Low. Low. But lots of people love it. So don't forget we are on Letterbox. And if you're already a vanguardist, of course, in a very appropriately emphasized way, we salute you.

Thank you very much. Claire, who is a proud Yorkshire woman, horror film enthusiast, deadlift, personal best, 60 kilograms. Marks and Sparks, greetings to you both. I'm writing to you following an email in last week's show about exclamatory behaviour in the cinema. Oh yes. In that instance, by a nice lady really enjoying the recent James Bond movie. I recently saw the Scarlet documentary which Mark reviewed and it got me thinking about the joy of a slightly mad and non-code compliant movie-going experience. This particular joy is one of the reasons I am so devoted to my local independent cinema,

The Peckhamplex. When you go to local independent cinema, The Peckomplex. When you go to see a film at The Peckomplex, you are never just going to see the film, you are also going to enjoy live audience commentary, exclamation and reactions that make the experience so much richer. A recent packed screening of Saltburn, for example, really augmented the viewing experience of the film with collected groans, uggs, yucks and gasps. When I saw a dream scenario in a quieter screening recently, an unexpected fart gag in the middle of an otherwise serious scene set off all eight of us in attendance into rounds of howling laughter. Very quickly, we stopped laughing at the scene itself and started laughing at how hard everyone else was laughing. And even five minutes later, I still had tears in my eyes, brought on not just by a deftly

timed Nicholas Cage fart, I did a Cage fart, it's a strange thing, but by the oddly life-affirming moment of audience togetherness. I know that if I want to watch a film in respectful silence there's always the BFI, where even a crinkle of a coat can bring on zealous shushing. But there's really something to be said for going to the cinema and hearing random strangers get completely swept up by the film with the audience

responding openly and mostly in unity. Code compliance is all well and good, but sometimes the alternative is just as fun, especially if you go in knowing what you're in for. I think that's the key phrase. Yeah. Thank you both for everything you do. I'm a medium-term listener.

Currently, in my final year of my PhD and your podcast, Wow! offers me much-needed emotional support in this very stressful time. Though it does often raise the question, why finish my research on the archaeology of Roman religion? Well, I could just go to the cinema. Anyway, take it easy, tongue it down with fascists everywhere. Well, carry on with your work because we need to know more about Jupiter and Juno and...

Mars. Minerva. Oh, fine. Venus and Neptune and Janus, I think he's... Venus and Mars are all right tonight. That's true. So I think the key thing from Claire there is, as long as you know it's going to be noisy, it's a bit like going to a parent and toddler screening. You know that it's going to be noisy. That's fine That was part of the thing with the scholar and there's a lovely story in the scholar documentary in which Stuart Lee

Recounts watching Thundercrack and this guy at the front of the of the audience kept standing up and Looking back at the audience going why are you watching this? Why are you watching this? This is terrible. And then sitting down and watching some more and then standing up and doing it again. Honestly, I think that's the kind of,

because weirdly enough, they showed Thundercrack at the BFI South Bank as part of the Scarlet season. And somebody said that they really enjoyed seeing it with an entire audience and Edgar Wright laughing all the way through. Is that thunder? Thunder. Thundercrack.

Is that how I asked you to say it? Correspondents at codermail.com, Claire, thank you very much indeed. Yeah, if it says, like, this is a noisy cinema, or if everyone knows that it's a noisy cinema, then you know what you're getting in for. Thank you very much indeed for your email. Tell us about a movie that's out that we might be interested in. Okay, so your fat friend is another joyously

insightful, subversive, and I think ultimately uplifting documentary from the great Jeannie Finley, whose work I love. Her back catalogue includes The Great Hip Hop Hoax, a Ryan, the man who would be king, which you remember was about the guy who became famous for being Elvis after Elvis had died. He was kind of Elvis impersonator. People thought was Elvis and Seahorse. So

your fat friend is constructed over a period of six years. It charts the rise of Aubrey Gordon, who started as an anonymous blogger. He had a blog called Your Fat Friend. You're a fat friend. In the blog, she spoke candidly and very engagingly about her life as a size 26 woman. The blog was a hit, got great responses from many of its readers. Also, of course, as with anything on the internet, a fair amount of hostility and trolling, because that's what happens on the intro web. Here is a taste. This is an excerpt

From the film in which the blog post read out This is this is entitled a request from your fat friend when we talk about about what I need when we talk about bodies Have a listen. I need you to listen closely. I Need you to believe me when I tell you what happens I'm a size 26 fat enough that some stores for fat people don't carry my size, fat enough that some doctors will refuse to see me, fat enough that getting on an airplane makes my blood run cold because they might kick me off without a refund for my ticket and then I will have

to explain to my friends, job, family why I can't make it on that trip. When I talk about fat, I'm not talking about feelings or self-esteem or body image issues. I'm talking about the way that individuals and institutions treat people who look like me. Every discussion about bodies is about how to avoid the horrible fate of looking like me. So you hear the narration, but accompanying that is a visual in which it's a kind of it's her sitting in a swimming costume by a pool. There's a lot of water imagery in the

film and and Jeannie Findlay uses it to look at her whilst you hear her voice and the descriptions and anyway. So the film has been described about being about fatness family the complexities of change and the messy feelings we hold about our bodies. I would add to that that it's also about someone who is witty engaging bold incredibly good company and who goes from being an anonymous blogger to a New York Times best-selling author and hugely popular podcaster. And the documentary tracks her journey, her journey from anonymity into the public eye

because she gets this book contract and she writes the book. And that means she has to step out into the spotlight, which is something she's avoided doing. I think Jeannie Finney is a brilliant documentary. I mean, I've loved all of her documentaries and I've interviewed her many times and it's easy to see why she makes such good documentaries because she's incredibly empathetic. And she has a brilliant way of bringing stories like this to life. I mean, the Seahorse documentary, which is a subtitle, The Dad Who Gave Birth, which

told the story of a trans man's experience of conception and pregnancy and birth in a way that was entirely unexploitative, sympathetic in my experience, in my opinion, enlightening and also engaging. Same here. It really helps that the subject in this documentary is so easy to spend time with. I mean, she really is engaging and funny and insightful. And one of the things that we see is we see her and her parents and You know very honest discussions about her life and about our relationships with her with her family and about our relationships with the world Which can be incredibly hostile and I laughed I cried I came out thinking that the world really could be a better place if we all start to accept each other for what we are And not what we think we should or or have to be I thought it was great. It's called Your Fat Friend. I hope

people go and see it because it's really, really uplifting. And that's a cinema release? It is in cinemas, yes. Will it be a streamer? Eventually, but it's in cinemas now. Okay. Still to come, Mark's going to be reviewing what? The Iron Claw, which is a real life story of a wrestling family dynasty and Occupied City, for which we have our guests. Yes, D.B. Queen and Bianca Steadicare. Before we get to those conversations, wise, wise words, in which Mark and I, in alternating weeks, have to guess the artist in terrible song during the break.

This is pretty straightforward. And I'm not saying that, just put the pressure on it, because I think it's one of those lyrics which when written, in the context of the song, you'll be familiar with the song. So therefore you'll be familiar with the words, but when it's written down, thinking, hmm, I'm not quite sure that's really as good as it could be.

I just like to say that unlike you, even if I know it, I'm not just going to leap in and say it so to destroy the across the break thing. No, but also if you get it, I won't tell you that I hate you. No, which is good. So from both of our point, we've met in the middle. It's like mediation. Not really. So here we go. Okay. With their tanks and their bombs and their bombs and their guns. See, you're smiling.

But that's not good. Answer in a minute. Mark, doesn't it seem like everyone is either starting a side hustle or becoming their own boss? Well, now that you mention it, yes, it does seem like that, Simon. And you know what they're hearing a lot? Why, it's the sound of a cash register doing that ca-ching noise. In other words, it's the sound of another sale. On Shopify, the all-in-one commerce platform to start, run and grow your business. Shopify is the commerce platform revolutionizing millions of businesses worldwide. Whether you're selling herringbone jackets or rare copies of the Exorcist on DVD, Shopify simplifies selling online and in person so you can successfully grow your business. Covering all your sales channels from a shopfront

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All lowercase Go to Shopify.co.uk slash Kermode to take your business to the next level today. That's Shopify.co.uk slash Kermode Really? Yes So I'm going to mark here with another message from our good friends NordVPN. That's Shopify.co.uk slash... Go mode. Really? Yes. Simon and Mark here with another message from our good friends, NordVPN. You know me, Simon, I always love hearing from NordVPN.

What do the top guys have to say this time? Well let's recap on what we know so far, shall we? Yes, I'd love to. We all know that NordVPN can help you watch your favourite TV shows and films that aren't available in your country. Which is fantastic obviously, but did you know that NordVPN can also act as your cyber bodyguard? Well, shoot me down.

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And to top it off, one NordVPN account can be used across six devices. To grab our huge discount off your NordVPN plan, go to NordVPN.com slash take. Our link will also give you extra months on the two-year plan. Plus there's no risk with Nord's 30-day money back guarantee. The link is in the podcast episode description box. And the answer to this week's wise, wise words, which are again with their tanks and their

bombs and their bombs and their guns is of course, it's a Tommy by the cranberries, isn't it? Zombie. Zombie. By the cranberries. Zombie. Yes. Why did I say Tommy? I've got absolutely no idea. Because it sounds the same, like the same way. But it certainly would certainly fit. Tommy. So yeah, it's a zombie, zombie. I don't even knew it was called zombie. I think I

always thought it was called Tommy. Anyway, there we go. By the cranberries, yes. The overall sound. With their tanks and their bombs and their bombs and their guns, that's right. So the overall sound is very, very effective but just as a line, it just struck me as something not quite right. Yes. Anyway, here's an email from Vanguardista Jay Raynor and following up on a shmestion about the worst posh food we'd ever eaten. Hello Jay. Dear Amu's Bush and Putty Four.

Sorry, I'm a week behind. Anyway, I mean, if anyone can explain rubbish posh food. Can I just say, I did say that. I literally said, if anyone could explain it, is Jay Rayner, please email us. You asked about the worst posh food. I'm a restaurant critic and have been subjected to quite a lot of torture in the name of high-end gastronomy.

A grim 120 euro starter full of popping gel balls of liquefied onion at La Sainte in Paris. An ice cream made with raw olives pounded table side of the utterly grim Miroiseur in the south of France. Now you understand the depth of my struggle and sacrifice but it's not hard to choose a winner. In 2007, even reading this is going to make me wretch, as part of research for a book about my pursuit of the perfect meal through seven global cities. Can I just say if you suggested that I've got a good idea for a podcast series, I'm looking out for the perfect meal through seven global cities. Can I just say if you suggested that? I've got a good idea for a podcast series. I'm looking out for the perfect meal and I'm going to have to

travel to seven amazing cities. What do you think? Anyway, I managed to gain access to an extremely exclusive high-end restaurant in Tokyo called Asami, where foreigners were a rare site. They had even translated the then 250 pound ahead tasting menu for me. So I felt obliged to eat everything, despite the fact that a lot of it celebrated Japanese interest in slippery slimy textures, which the Western palette finds challenging. Because you don't like sushi or sashimi or anything, do you? No. The worst of the lot was salt fermented sea cucumber.

Imagine taking a raw trout and placing it on the parcel shelf of a car on a warm day, then closing the doors and windows and leaving it for an hour or two, until a thick layer of slime has developed all over its skin. Then imagine licking the slimy trout. Well, that is Salt Fermented Sea Cucumber. If I never meet it again, it will of course be too soon. Down with orange despots, up with blue-haired feminists, and I'd say hello to Jason, but I'm not sure he'd remember me, as he's so much older than I am, and was therefore many

years above me at school. Did he go to the same school as you guys? No, this is very... It's like the eaten for the liberal elite. But that's Jay keeps pointing. Well, I told you that the best joke about that was when when I became film critic for the observer, Peter Bradshaw said,

people say elitism, but you know, you becoming film critic for the observer proves, they're very open, they don't care which year you were in, Habradash's which is a very Peter Bradshaw joke. That's a very good line. So Jay, thank you very much for getting in touch. I quite want to go to Japan and South Korea. I love Japan and we really want to go but I think I'm going to struggle on the food. What is a sea cucumber? It's a type of... Is it a fish?

I think it is. I think it's something that lives under in the water. Is it, it might just be, you know, like a thing that just sits there. But is it a fish or is it a plant? I mean, I know he said it's like, you know, see. They are marine animals with a leathery skin. Oh, look, there's a picture.

Lordy, Lordy, You want one of them? There you go. I'm not going to pan. Wow. I'm certainly not going to go to the Assamese restaurant. Oh, that looks evil. Well, Jay, thank you very much indeed for enlightening us. So maybe that's even worse than Sir Strömming out of Sweden. So thank you. I suspect that's the end of this correspondence because if no one is going to be able to say, yes, I've had higher-end food than J. Wren. And if his experience of the Asami restaurant in Tokyo is beatable, I'd be very surprised. However, we'd be interested to hear it. Correspondents at cobenere.com. Box Office Top 10 at 40, Days of Heaven. So this is the reissue of the Terrence Malick film, which introduced the world to the genius of Linda Manns,

who's very sadly no longer with us, but went on to do brilliant work in Wanderers and Out of the Blue. Great to see Days of Heaven back on a big screen. Just the astonishing screen presence of Linda Manns is, and hats off to Terrence Malick for having the gumption to cast her in that role. And she's just brilliant. Into the 10 in the UK, American Fiction, it's number eight in America. This is from Louise

Shaw in Chesterfield. Long-term list of first-time emailer but felt compelled to write after a secret screening of American fiction. The way these secret screenings work at our local world of city is that a few people always leave when the film's title appears on the certification screen because they've, quote, never heard of it. Then a few people leave it around 50 minutes in because it's, quote, not for them.

Not for this film. Everyone stayed, which I feel is tantamount to the warmth, originality and good humor that the film oozed from the outset. Every character, even those unseen, was believable in their backstory, interaction with others and crucial in moving the story forwards. Every actor had an effortless on-screen presence which made the dialogue flow as if it were The actor had an effortless on-screen presence which made the dialogue flow as if it were instinctive rather than scripted. And there were laughs, audible laughs, being unashamedably out loud which created the perfect shed cinema experience which is surely high on the list of reasons why cinema exists. Well done to all involved in American fiction, I'm sure this will be in my top five films

of the year. Keep up the good work. You're my main motivation for driving to work on Fridays. Which is kind of scary really because it because if we weren't doing this, we'd just stay at home and have a pajama day or something like that. But anyway, I presented the London Critics Circle Film Awards on Sunday night and Jeffrey Wright got the Dillis Powell Award and he did and he was, which was presented in by called Jefferson actually because obviously, who's the director of the film?

Yeah, and obviously you did the Jeffrey Wright interview after we had done the review anyway Jeffrey Wright did the most brilliant speech about Dillis Powell about whom he hadn't known anything until he won the Dillis Powell award And it was that thing when you're standing on stage with somebody who really knows how to do a speech And it was like okay in fact in the interview, which as we've mentioned a number of times, was included in the show last week, so you did your review without having heard the Jeffrey Wright interview. But it turns out that the stuff that he is most proud of

is the stuff that you weren't sure about. And all the family stuff. And I've watched it a second time, and I do think it does integrate really well. Yes, it may be that I've called this wrong. I will go back and watch it again. Another friend of mine who I respect very much said exactly the same thing. But anyway, so number 10 here, number 8 in the States is American fiction. Number 9 is the holdovers. Which I loved. I mean, I was having a discussion with somebody about celluloid and

with somebody about celluloid and we were saying when you can make the holdovers look as convincingly celluloid as it is, maybe there's a time to know. Okay, well fair enough. Poor things is at number 8, not 10 in the state. Absolutely love it. I thought it was just great, really, really, really enjoying it and I'm really delighted thatuskin Fenricks has been nominated for an Oscar for Best Score because I think that score is wonderful. One because it's seven and number four in the states. So that's number, it's ninth week in the charts. It has been a runaway success and I absolutely, hands up, I would not have predicted that

it would have done that well. Anyone but you is at six. Yeah, would have seen it over the weekend but I was presenting the London Critics Circle Film Awards so I had other things on. Number five is The Zone of Interest. So this was another big winner at those awards. It is a really powerful film and actually I think it's, the more I think about it and I have thought about it a lot now

and realise how much it has stayed with me, and at the awards, the guy did the sound, and so Mika Levy was there, and Johnny Burns were there, and Mika Levy is the composer, and Johnny Burns does the sound, and of course what they've said is that the sound and the composition are very much... I spoke to both of them, and I do think that the sound is a huge part of the film that you don't see. Sorry, you haven't. No, no, this is quite interesting. Adam Grossman from Vancouver, British Columbia. Yes.

Thank you both for the long and very thoughtful discussion on Jonathan Glazer's wholly unique film, The Zone of Interest. I had a chance to see Glazer's latest at the wonderful Fifth Avenue Cinemaya in my home city of Vancouver, British Columbia, with my good friend Jesse. I'm not sure I've seen anything like it before. And isn't that what the best cinema does? It took hours for the knot in my stomach to ease and for me to work the constant mechanical hum of the soundscape out of my head. Days later, I was still thinking of that inventive, shocking and moving final scene of Hirst, who, if you didn't hear it last week, he's the commandant of Auschwitz,

looking down the corridor and what he sees or perhaps doesn't see. I also wanted to share something with you about the particular scenes you spent a few minutes on, of the young girl and the apples. Yes. Like you, I was also a little unclear about what Glaser was trying to represent with these scenes and the drastic shift in the way they're filmed. Reading an interview with Glazer in The Guardian was incredibly enlightening. In the article, Glazer talked about how difficult this film was to make, given the subject matter and viewpoint and how close he was to walking away from it. That's why these sections of the young girl were so important to him. While the use of the thermal imaging camera makes

them feel like scenes from a ghostly horror movie, they are the opposite. They are the rare moments of hope and light amid the black night. While Hirst is reading bedtime fairy tales to his children, the real fairy tale is happening outside. Glazer based this on a true story, which is incredible and I hadn't heard this story before. He met a 90-year-old woman called Alexandria, who worked for the Polish resistance at just the age of 12. She told Glazer how she would cycle to Auschwitz and place apples in the earth for the starving prisoners to find while doing their hard labour the following day. This same woman...

When the prisoners come and work in the garden of the house. This same woman lived in the house the zone of in the garden of the house. This same woman lived in the house. The zone of interest was shot in and it was her bike and dress they used for the young actor in the movie. Glazer describes these scenes as that small act of resistance, the simple, almost holy act of leaving food.

I was looking for the light somewhere and I found it in her. Sadly, Alexandria died just a few weeks after she and Glazer spoke, an incredible story which, once I read it, made those scenes feel essential. Thanks again for having such a rich and insightful discussion on this important film, more than ever down with the Nazis. But that is interesting. First, I want to go and watch it again. No, absolutely.

Now, that's where he found the light. Can I just say two things just in relation to the sound? So, as I said, Mika Levy, I love their work and I think that the score they did was brilliant, even though it's used very sparingly. Johnny Byrne, the sound designer, known for, get this, the zone of interest, poor things, nope, under the skin. You go, okay. Kind of knows what he's doing.

Donna says, I went to see Zone of Interest earlier this evening at the impossibly well-priced World of City in Northampton, 699 a ticket on average, as the young attendant scanned my phone to admit me to the screen. She said, brisely, enjoy the film. I thanked her, knowing full well that I wasn't expecting to enjoy the film given its content. I was prepared for a difficult couple of hours hours but knew this would be an important and given the worrying right-wing trends and trajectories emerging, pertinent watch. What I wasn't prepared for however was the film's incredible soundscape. The harrowing chilling and chaotic cacophony of noise did more heavy lifting than any other piece of sound design I think I've ever experienced in a film. And while we weren't witnessed to the atrocities

from which these nightmarish sounds were generated, their use in this way made them exponentially more powerful, all complemented by an equally alarming and breathtakingly disturbing score. An astonishing example of, I was gonna say show not tell, actually here don't tell. This film and its reminder of the sheer horror of which humans are capable will stay with me for some time as it should. I would encourage everyone to see it. Just don't expect to enjoy it.

Thank you for the time reading my email. Dana, thank you very much. And you should definitely go and see it. Absolutely. Number four is all of us strangers. Again, a big winner at the Critic Circle Awards. And I mean, just what a moving film. It was, I think when you were talking to Andrew Hague

and he said that thing about so many people have done that thing about telling him their own stories. I think that's the thing that really cuts to the heart of it. And as I said, I spent a large section of one of my most recent therapy sessions talking to my therapist about the use of Always On My Mind in that film, which is, you know, we just started talking about it and all other problems went out the window. And which Claire Foy sings along to the Pets of the Boys band. Mean Girls is at three.

Which has done very well considering particularly that it was originally intended for straight to streaming. Our guile is at number two here. Here we go. It's number one in America. So I saw after I'd reviewed it, because I mean I hadn't seen any other reviews for I've reviewed it, it's got kicked around town

by everybody else, including Robbie Cullen of this parish who absolutely excoriated it. I think so far it's me and Matthew, his colleague and I think one other person, but we're in the minority, but I'm standing by, I enjoyed it. Andrew Griffiths, I decided to have the foolish idea of going to the pictures without consulting the New Testament of the church with attainment.

I still haven't heard the review, but my assumption is that the good doctor was as perplexed as I was, as to how this was greenlit. I must admit, I was tempted by the stellar cast list and the trailer made it look interesting. Well, queued us to the trailer makers because the film was utter tripe. There are specifics to get into

that would spoil some of the plot points, but it stretched the suspension of disbelief to the limit within the first 10 minutes. And after that, I had to struggle not to repeatedly mutter, oh, come on, at very regular intervals. I wanted to enjoy it and I always enjoyed Brian Cranston giving maximum ham, but I felt the actors themselves didn't fully believe

in the script, so how could I? I now have to profusely apologize to my girlfriend and I'm now forbidden from choosing spontaneous movie nights. The one benefit is that the ticket was free. Please, someone, reign in Matthew Vaughn. Dr. Katie says, dear learned doctors, me and the good gentleman, surgeon him indoors, needed some light relief. So we took in a showing of our garland, our local multiplex. He had a great cast to embrace the craziness with gusto, fantastic locations and extraordinary set pieces, the stand up being the gas and dance sequence that all together should have made a great big smile of a movie. Bafflingly, it was a huge

and disappointment. That's a good word. It is. Too many twists and turns made a giant, messy scribble of a story that left us both a bit bored and just wanted it to finish. It was great. The Matthew Vaughan's previously leering eye was absent, but ultimately this was a film that was less than the sum of its parts.

Thanks for all the wonderful wittering and for the excellent product. Oh, yeah, okay, and all that kind of stuff. Thank you Dr. Katie. So just negatives. Well, there we go. I mean, all I can say is this, as we've said many times, you know, it's all to do with your own personal responses and I can't lie. I enjoyed it. I thought it was the most fun I've had in a Matthew Vaughan film since kick-ass. Number one is migration number five in the States. Sean says, Dear Mallard and Eurasian Teal. I took my son to see migration at our local view cinema

at the weekend. A trip to the cinema is a fairly common occurrence for us these days. He's almost four and was born under the strictest lockdown conditions. One of our first communal post-lockdown outings with him was to our local cinema who show an excellent selection of programs and films for small humans on Saturday and Sunday mornings. Migration started,

promisingly, with a Minion's short that he was so invested in he forgot to eat his hot, non-code compliant corn-based sweet crunchy. I thought the Minion's short was the best thing. The screening was sold out and full of rule breakers. There were shouts, cheers, standing on seats, demands for the toilet and more food. A more unruly group of cinema breakers. There were shouts, cheers, standing on seats, demands for the toilet, and more food. A more unruly group of cinema goers you could not wish to be amongst, although there was no obvious drug dealing as far as I could tell. That's just my experience. As we entered the final third of the film, Tom hadn't made a sound. He had only made some angry hand gestures while stopping me from having some of his popcorn. Unfortunately, there came a point in the film

which I will describe as heightened duck peril. Tom let all code compliance disappear as he wailed that he didn't like it and wanted to leave. Visibly shaken, we quickly left the cinema. When we were outside in the foyer, he explained he was too scared and didn't like it because of the duck's seemingly impending fate. I reassured him that the ducks were probably okay, I mean I really don't know, but we left and he

was soon fine. Although Tom found the threat of laranged ducks a little too scary, I think this probably highlights what a great job the filmmakers had done. Tom was completely engrossed in the film, the emotions and threat was all too real, the story was gripping and the animation obviously pulled him into the story. I enjoyed it too and the reaction in the screening appeared to be a universal thumbs up. At some point we'll watch the end. I really hope the ducks are okay," says Sean. The ducks are okay.

That thing about Duck Alarange, when he says, he says, what is Duck Alarange? He says, it's you with Alarange on top. I was just looking at the BBFC. I mean, you're absolutely right about the, about the peril. The BBFC stuff says, does it say very, I think their over thing is very mild peril. Yes, it says very mild threat, violence and rude humor.

But it is true that there are scenes in it, in which they're not very mild. It's, I thought, quite scary. But I also agree that, well done. Firstly, you did exactly the right thing. When your child said, I don't like it, I want to leave, you left, well done, because that whole thing about, no, no, sit there, just sit there and it is, you know, no.

It'll be fine. Yes, you don't know. Secondly, it is fine incidentally, just so you know, that's not a plot spoiler. That's just a sort of reassurance for everybody. But I absolutely understand. Yes, there are some. I mean, the scene, as I said, there's a scene in it, which has got a definite reference to the Texas chainsaw massacre in it and is definitely very creepy. So yeah, I agree with what you said. The minion short at the beginning, Moont, is just wonderful. Correspondents at www.KirvinandMaeo.com. In a moment, we speak to Steve McQueen and Bianca Stigto.

Hello, takers. It's Ben Bailey-Smith here, subteacher of The Take, and this episode is brought to you by Better Help. Now, something we often forget is that relationships are not always easy going. I mean, we know that, but we often think that if they aren't easy, then they aren't right. But of course, that's not always the case. Relationships work when both people bring as much as they can to the table. And that could be colleagues, friends, or of course, significant others. And therapy can be a really positive place to work through those challenges. Now, I've used BetterHelp, and it's helped me do exactly that. Set boundaries, be the best version of myself I can be, and be better in my relationships. It's a great option because

it's totally online, it's convenient, it's flexible, it suits a busy schedule. So if you're thinking of starting therapy, trust me, give BetterHelp a try. They've got access to thousands of UK mental health professionals with a wide variety of expertise and no referral needed. And check this out, our listeners get 10% of their first month at betterhelp.com slash Ker mode. That's better H-E-L-P.com slash Ker mode. This episode is brought to you by MUBI, a curated streaming service dedicated to elevating great cinema from around the globe. From iconic directors to emerging auteurs, there is always something new to discover. And here's some exciting movie-related news.

Yes, well, on the subject of iconic directors, Perfect Days is in UK cinemas on February 23rd from movie. This is the highly anticipated Return to Fiction feature film making from Vin Vendors, who made Paris Texas and Wings of Desire, which I know you absolutely love. So that is something to anticipated return to fiction feature film making from Vin Vendors who made Paris Texas and Wings of Desire which I know you absolutely love so that is something to look forward to. Also on Mubi in the UK is the series First Films First. A director's first film can provide the roadmap for an entire of our series. Of directorial debuts revisits the films that launched the careers of some of cinema's finest auteurs. Including Justin Trayette, who made the film which you absolutely loved, and I did too in Atomy of a Fall.

They have Age of Panic. And of course Reservoir Dogs by an unknown director who went on to make some other things as well. Never heard of him. You can try MUBI Free for 30 days at MUBI.com slash Kermit and Mayo. That's MUBI.com slash Kermit and Mayo for a whole month of great cinema for free. Our guests today are the husband and wife pair behind the new documentary, Occupied City, which is about the Nazi occupation of Amsterdam in World War II.

It's made by Academy Award winner, Sir Steve McQueen, and his wife, producing partner and writer on this film, historian and filmmaker Bianca Stigter. You'll hear my interview with the pair after this clip from Occupied City. On the day Germany capitulated, the 4th of May 1945, a German patrol started shooting at people celebrating out on the streets after the start of curfew at 7pm. A bullet struck Siggy Mendels, a Jewish boy who had ventured outside for the first time after hiding for years. Eight months later, he died of his injuries. The Germans had imposed a curfew at the start of the occupation.

No one could be out between midnight and 4am. Only members of the air raid service were allowed outside. From September 1944, the curfew started at 8pm, sometimes 7pm as a punishment. The Germans hung up placards stating that anybody out in the street could be shot. And that is a clip from Occupied City, Steve McQueen, Bianca Stigter. Welcome to the programme. Thank you very much, Steve, for coming in. Thank you.

Pleasure. Bianca, we start with you, I think, because it's your book, which begins this story, Atlas of an Occupied City, Amsterdam, 1940 to 1945. As this movie starts with that book, I think, can you just introduce us to what you were trying to do with that. Yeah, the book is a kind of guidebook to the city of those years during the Second World War. You could also call it a kind of time machine on paper that tells you all the things that happened, and especially where they happened, because Amsterdam is very much a city where you can see certain parts of history very well. For instance, the canals were built in the 17th and 18th centuries,

so that history is visually very present. But the Second World War happened in those kind of buildings, so you can't really see it. And for some things, of course, monuments are built, but a lot of things people don't know what actually happened in certain buildings. So I thought it would be good to put that down on paper so you can have a sense of where the Germans were in the city, where the Holocaust was organized, where people went into hiding, where the roundups were, where resistance groups cut out or did attacks on the Germans and so on.

And how did you decide which stories, because there are many stories in your book, how did you decide which ones to include or did you include all the ones you came across? Well, yeah, there's over 2,000 addresses in the book. Of course, some things are obviously where were the headquarters of the Germans, for instance, that would be in it, or where was the headquarters of the Dutch National Socialist Party and that sort of things. But yeah, there's of course a lot of smaller stories

and details that you really have to decide, okay, there's was something extraordinary happening here in Amsterdam. That was the most important criterion. Stephen, what point did you think that this book was the basis for a film? Well, that wasn't the sort of starting point for me. The starting point for me was that when I arrived in Amsterdam, that's actually the worst way I met Bianca, who became my wife. Eventually, but when I first got there, what was so shocking? Well, I'm in London, I'm growing up in London.

You know, a city with obviously huge and a massive pass, but for me, the sudden recent past of the occupation by the Nazis and Amsterdam, it felt like I was living with ghosts because these narratives occurred all the time around me. And to a certain degree, it got to a point where I felt like I was living with ghosts, that there were two narratives going on at the same time, two actual narratives. And I think one of the things which really cemented this to me was our daughter's school. It basically is where interrogations took place by the Nazis. And this is a place where my daughter was going to school. So the dichotomy, the images in my head of kids jostling,

putting their rucksack into the lockers, parking their bikes. This was exactly the same place where people were being interrogated by the Gestapo. And I think then I thought myself, well, to visualize that, I thought, what happens if I found footage from 1940 and copied the images of that time? What I mean by that, because as a 17th century city, it wasn't bombed, you could reinforce the images one on top of the other because the buildings will sort of be sort of, in fact, doubled and posed up, so they're further up, sort of hardened in the image. But at the same time, you could be living the, in fact, doubling posed up to therefore to be sort of hardened in the image.

But at the same time, you could be living the dead in the same frame, walking through each other at the same scale. I thought, wow, that'd be interesting to see. But then what actually what was going on in my head at that time was I heard this noise of typing. And it was next door where Bianca was writing her book, Atlas of Rocket by City.

And I thought to myself, oh, that kind of shower moment in my head where, oh goodness, what happens if a text was the past and the images were the present? And that was it. It was a kind of a combination of the two. So everything that we see is contemporary, well filmed in the last few years. No archive footage, no archive interviews, and as soon as that shower moment had occurred, that was what that, were you ever tempted to help the story with no with our no because I think that's that's again it's one of those things where you never as an artist in some ways you just you have to go with you have to

have faith in the idea and where it could where where it could bring you, because you never actually know. But I think as an artist, you know, your half of your remit is to predict the unpredictable. And that's what I went with. And I was just very excited to do so. Bianca, you mentioned, I think it was 2,000 addresses that you visited for the book. How did you decide which to include in the film? Well, we, I think, we shot all of them.

I plead it for shoot the whole thing. All two thousand or more addresses. And of course, that could not be in a feature film, which is already with 130 addresses in the film, and it's already four and a half hours, which tells you something about the vastness of the scale of history. But the other addresses will still be used in an artwork version of the project, if I say that right. You said it correctly, yes.

So there'll be a much longer version, it's like an installation. Well, yeah. I mean, what it is, that, you know, we had to somehow just, we just waited two and a half years to shoot it all. So 2000 addresses. And then I thought when I had the footage, there's something in this. And it helped, obviously it helped the editing process in a way which you could never have been done

because we had everything to play with, with everything. And yes, we will be showing these sort of, another version, which is 34 hours of footage in a different way, a different concept. Of course, the one doesn't have to sit through 36, 34 hours of footage, but I'm interested in how we can actually present that. So how did you decide which of those addresses,

which of those stories to tell? How did you decide what the optimal length of this film was? Well, we didn't. What it was, is where the form sort of allowed us to stop, as it were. What was good about the situation where I thought to myself, well, I'm not going to live to... This was the way. This couldn't have been a 90-minute picture.

It had to have a certain kind of breadth and width about it, because the subject matter was just so heavy, so intense. So it was one of those situations where I wanted to trace the picture almost like an English garden, meaning that you could sort of, Miranda, to go off, and get lost and to come back on yourself. Unlike a French garden where it's very symmetrical, it had to be a situation where you could go off and go left and go right and come back on it on yourself.

And of course we start and begin, we go to the end and we go to the middle of the story. So it's one of those things which is just sort of, it's a meditation rather than a history lesson. It's not A, B, C, D, E, F, G. It's another way of doing it. I think meditation is a very interesting choice of word because it is a film which is unconventionally long.

But I found it as a meditation, it has stayed with me for a long period so that you watch it for four and a half hours, but the next day you think about it for four and a half hours, and then the following day and then the following day. And believe me, I've seen it in its entirely quite a few times, and every time you catch something else, because it's also a film that demands something of the viewer, because what you hear and what you see are two different things. And you, as viewer, can make the comparison or the connection.

And sometimes there is no connection. So it becomes a very rich experience to you can even see it a few times and still see something new every time. And so, you know what I think? It's the case of how we're living today, we can't take it for granted. To hear these stories or hear what happened in Occupy City and think of how we live now

and what people fought for and died for for us to have an idea, to be living how we are, how we're living today is It's pretty astounding. We take it for granted. That's fine. It's good to take it for granted. We're allowed to. People thought, die for us to take it for granted.

But when you get to a point where you're listening to these stories of how we got to this point where we can actually have this conversation, you know, it's pretty, yeah, I imagine it would stay with you for a few days. Yes. Because the film is being released at a time when the far right in Europe

and in Holland also are on the rise where anti-Semitic attacks have increased in this country. So your film is being released at the worst time or at a good time? I don't know. It gives it some urgency, I think. In this time where the far right has gained the biggest votes in the Dutch general election, a party which is very Islamic, has an Islamic phobia, sort of history. And to think that as a young person who's growing up in these times,

could feel that they're not wanted is a heavy situation. The outside world is what you are filming. So we have the text from the past and we have Amsterdam now in the last few years. There are some other stories which impinge into your story. COVID is the first one. Can I ask you about that? First of all, practically what it was like to be shooting during COVID and lockdown, but also your choice of shots that we see of anti-lockdown demonstrations, also the joyous use of David Bowie music with a vaccination. There was a situation where we started shooting just before, just before the COVID outbreak

and lockdown, and it was a case of, do we continue or not? And I thought to myself, well, if it rains, you put on a raincoat. That's the world. We have to embrace the world as it is. You can't pretend. This is how it is. And as far as the student situation with the protesters, the sort of anti-vaxxed sort of protesters in our film, well, that's part of the fact that people died

and fought for freedom and people could do what they want. And I think it's one of those situations where, you know, often people try to make sense out of nonsense. And that's who we are when a world where fake news and people trying to sort of bring narratives together that to try to make it make sense, when it obviously doesn't, to justify what they do. And I embrace that because that's as a filmmaker,

this is where we're living and we have to sort of see, we have to sort of look at it what it is. And I say, what you were saying, Bianca, about the whole idea of the comparisons. Yeah, we are not making that comparison. There are some people in the film that feel that they can making that comparison. There are some people in the film that feel that they can make that comparison. But for me, if anything, the film proves there is no comparison there at all between the

Nazi occupation of Amsterdam and how the lockdowns were done during the pandemic. If anything, the whole film proves there is no comparison. I mean, not as the occupation of Amsterdam, Covid. I mean, I don't know. Go figure. But hey, welcome to our world today. On the subject of music, because both the original music and David Bowie turning up and choices of tracks, what did you want the music to add to this story? What was your brief? Olly Coates, Oliver Coates, who did the music for the Pitcher.

What happened with him, I walked into a store and never happens to me ever. This music was going on. I was like, what's this music? And it sort of took me over in a way. Luckily, I had a friend who had Cezanne on her phone. We found out, I didn't know if this guy was living or dead. And it happened to me, this gentleman

who's this extraordinary musician who's what, which I agree with on a lot of his films as a cellist. And I thought, well, I rang it in my B's and glars go, would you want to do this bitch? He said, yes, it's incredible. These things happen. And he, I mean, he's extraordinary in the sense

of what I wanted because I wanted to sort of somehow have the spirit of the past in sound, the sort of vapor or the sort of thing which could go into every nook and cranny. And he brought that to his music. As far as, for example, the choice of Bowie and sort of, what was the track again? We used for Bowie for the vaccinations. Golden Years. Golden Years. It was just one of those things which, again, what was the track again? We used to have Bowie for the vaccinations. All the years. Golden years.

It was just one of those things which I, again, is the passing into the present. And I just, I just, sorry, I love Bowie. Bigger fun. Bigger fun. Don't, don't. We're gonna talk further with Bianca and Steve in take two. But for the moment, Steve and Bianca, thank you very much.

Thank you. Thank you. So as you heard there, when we were recording the interview, we were very fortunate to have half an hour. So we stopped there. There's lots more to discuss about this film. There are so many issues that this film brings up that it was impossible to contain

within just the usual 50 minutes. So there'll be more with Stephen Queen and Bianco Stigter in Take Two, which is landed alongside this podcast. So if you are a subscriber, then you'll get the second part of that interview. This is a limited cinema release. Yes, I mean, it's in cinemas and I think it is worth seeing in a cinema because of the form of it. But it's a shall we talk about? Shall I? Shall I leap in? Yes, I should say Bianca said to me, how did you see this film? Did you see it in the cinema or on your laptop?

And I said, I did sit on my laptop. She said, OK, the cinema is the best place to see it. Yeah. I didn't couldn't quite bring myself to. I'd seen some of it on my phone as well. But the thing is, it's four and a half hours. So I was just I was determined to get to the end and in the second part of the interview we do talk about the end of the film which is very definitely a full stop and it's an optimistic note at the end of a pretty grim story. And also there's an intermission with you know with the musical interlude.

So it's actually, well let's start with this because in a way you've kind of cut to the number of it. The first time I ever interviewed Steve McQueen, he just made Hungary, he'd won the camera door. But I was interviewing him also about Queen and Country, the installation that he had done because he was the Imperial War Museum, had commissioned him to do a piece about British troops in Iraq. And he had done that piece, which was, it's like a big oak box, almost shaped like a coffin,

which has these glass slides that you pull out and they have stamps of the fallen. And he had tried to get the post office at that point to actually issue the stamps and they didn't. And when they didn't it became a kind of interesting talking point about the relationship between art and politics and war and fiction and all that sort of stuff. So he comes out of a visual art background. He won the Turner Prize. He beat Tracy M into the Turner Prize actually at the time of when she was doing the Unmade Bed and all that stuff.

And he had made this thing Deadpan, which is, you know, that famous Buster Keaton stunt of the house, the front of the house falling down. And Deadpan is Steve McQueen reproducing that stunt, him standing in the house, the front falling down and seen from different angles and repeated as a kind of strange ritual. And it's really quite a breathtaking piece. So he comes from visual art, and his visual art and film installations, and then he moves from that into features.

He carried on making visual installations. He made a very strange little short film with Charlotte Rampling with him, prodding his finger into her eye, that she described as a film about resistance to violence, is a fascinating piece. So he's always had that background and I would say that he has always straddled both those divides and I think in this particular case this film does exist somewhere between film and visual art.

In fact, you know, the longer version that they've spoken about and the possibility of that being an installation, I think this is as close as Sinema gets to a visual art installation when he was talking about it being a meditation. Yes, yes, very good description. Yeah, exactly. So it's not like a linear narrative. It is a meditation that circles round and round and round in a way that's quite hypnotic. In fact, with the intermission, one of the strange things is because the voice, the voiceover is by Meloni Himes and she has this very, it's not uninflected, but it's very deliberately kind of almost... In fact, in the second part of the interview, they talk about how they asked her to deliver

their lines, which is emotionless. Yes, right, exactly so. And so the first half finishes, and then there's this intermission and the second half picks up and it's almost the same tone of voice. It's like we're getting back into this and so it's a cumulative effect. And when they said that they actually that they did all the houses, you can imagine it's something you would go into, you know, an exhibition space and sit and watch some and then come out and then go back in again because it's kind of, so that's the first thing to say is it's, it is something that I think blurs the boundary between cinema and visual art installation. That is something to which I confess that in the

past I have been quite resistant but not in this case. He talked about living with ghosts, that the juxtaposition of daughter school now in the Gestapo interrogation centre before, the text is the past, the images are the present. I thought that was really fascinating because I do think that that tension between those two things is, you asked Steve McQueen was the book, the beginning, and he said, well, not really. The beginning was this project about superimposition of past and present, and then he heard Bianca typing, and then he thought, okay, actually, that's the text. And I think, so the way those things fit together, the juxtaposition does some really interesting stuff. On the one hand, it sort of, it gives you that, the fact that the history is there.

In some cases, ordinary street scenes of people getting on with life, but in the very recent past, these atrocities and the reading of the atrocities is just so methodical and so that it's cumulative. But there is also the strange thing about what do you make, not you, what does one make of the juxtaposition between those things? And you raised very astutely the issue about some of the footage is shot during lockdown and lockdown protests. And I thought it was very interesting when she said,

we're not making any connection between those things. In fact, what we're saying is there is no connection between those two things. But it is true that what the film invites you to do is to make your own decision about what the juxtaposition of those two things says. Now, because of what I know I think and because of what I know you think and what I assumed, I was going to hear confirmed, they think as well. There is no comparison. There is no comparison at all. But what's fascinating is that it's a work of art that provokes some people to believe that, because I believe that some people have. Some people have said, you know,

that some of those sequences feel a bit like GB News or Fox News or something that they're suggesting that there's an equivalence between the Nazi restrictions and then the Dutch government's restrictions, which is clearly preposterously preposterous and does not bear even the nearest hint of any kind of examination. But this does again take us back to the installation thing that he said that it began with the thing about the juxtaposition of past and present. And what in any artwork, what that juxtaposition is going

to do is to make you go, okay, what, if anything, is the connection or the disconnect? And I think that's really fascinating because we've always talked about films give you what you bring to them. You have to bring a certain mindset to that in order to interpret it in that way. And I think that's why almost again, I say it's kind of almost closer to a visual art installation than it is to a film because it is it is Absolutely something that requires the involvement of the audience to to complete it and I think that's really important

um on the subject of the score the Oliver Coates score is Terrific, I'm showing playing some tracks on the Scala radio my Scala radio show tomorrow I think that that score is really, really well judged. It'd be very easy to get that wrong, but I think that Oliver Coates has done a brilliant job with it, and I think the music is absolutely extraordinary. And I think that, because I don't know whether you talk about this in the second half of the interview, which I haven't heard yet,

but he's now working on a project called Blitz. Yes, I think he's pretty much finished by this. Right, okay, fine. Which is a movie project called Blitz. Yes, I think he's pretty much finished by the time. Right, okay, fine. Which is a movie about the Blitz in London, and it just sounds incredible. It stars Sir Sharon and then Stephen Graham. Yeah. And he's like, okay, wow.

Stephen Queen movie about the Blitz. Yes, please, thank you. And he says in that first part, you know, I'm a Londoner. So this is... Yeah, yeah, yeah. He said, and I think he says, you know, we've kind of, we don't really know much about it anymore. So he wants to put that right.

So I think it's fascinating that what he has continued to do, despite becoming, you know, this really groundbreaking, important, you know, feature filmmaker, first black filmmaker to win an Oscar for Best Film, groundbreaking work, extraordinary success, but has continued to work in television, the Small Act series was television funded, has continued to work in visual arts, has continued not just to tell interesting stories, I think that the widows that was to drive from a TV series I thought he did absolutely brilliantly with, continues to push the boundaries of what the form can do. And you and I were talking about this in the car and the way in. It is a big ask for four hours, 20 minutes. But the fact is it has stayed with us, hasn't it? The experience of watching Occupied City

has stayed with us. And I have thought about Zone of Interest a lot. Zone of Interest is almost like the complete structural antithesis, you know, small compact completely contained. And this is huge and it almost feels like, as he said, like an excerpt from a larger project. But I think actually both of them are really, they both present a really interesting way of revisiting these events. And this comes back to what I said before about sometimes you have to look to the side of something to see it and I think they're both doing that in different ways. I was a big fan but I think you were too. Yes it's I think I would like to have heard the interview

before I watched the film because as soon as you get someone saying this is a meditation you know okay so when are you to go and see this film? If you're going to go and see this in a cinema, you know, go and see it at three o'clock in the afternoon. Yes. Allow the rest of the day. And, you know, because, and we come to this in the second half of the, the interval is not there for you to go and buy more popcorn. You know, the interval is serving a completely different purpose. Yes. So we'll talk more with Steve McQueen and Bianca Stichter in Take Two. But when you do see it, if you do see it, we would love to hear what you make of it,

because it is quite an astonishing piece. Correspondents at KerberanMario.com. More in just a moment. dot com or in just a moment. I'm Afwa Hirsh. I'm Peter Frankopan. And in our podcast, Legacy, we explore the lives of some of the biggest characters in history. This season, we delve into the life of Mikhail Gorbachev.

This season has everything. It's got political ideology. It's got nuclear Armageddon. It's got love story. It's got betrayal. It's got economic collapse. One ingredient that you left out, legacy. Was he someone who helped make the world a better place, saved us all from all of those terrible things? Or was he a man who created the problems and the challenges of many parts of the world today? Those questions about how to think about Gorbachev, you know, was he unwitting character in history or was he one who helped forge and frame the world?

And it's not necessarily just a question of our making. There is a real life binary in how his legacy is perceived. In the West, he's considered a hero, and in Russia, it's a bit of a different picture. So join us on Legacy for Mikhail Gorbachev. Well, just a little bit later than the normal, but you'll be reassured to know that we can together once more step into the hallowed confines of the laughter. I thought we forgot.

Play the music. Well, you know, hi Mark. Hi Simon. I've been feeling a little bit down this week. Have you? Contemplating the futility of existence. You know, the sort of thing, feeling melancholic, drawn to thoughts of those we've lost.

Couldn't help thinking of the last words my dear old grandfather said to me before he died. Yes. Are you still holding the ladder? So I turned to the world of film for some consolation for my mortal in mood. Specifically, Ingmar Bergman's Seventh Seal. Yes. What a film, Mark. Yes, what a film.

Did you know there's a deleted scene? No. Which instead of a game of chess between Max von Sydow and Bengt, Echerot's personification of death, they have a pillow fight. Von Sydow learned pretty quickly that you should never challenge death to a pillow fight, unless you're prepared to handle the repercussions. That was a very long walk up that garden path for the repercussions. To get to the...

That was the long and winding road to the punchline. path for the repercussions to get to the that was the long and winding road to the punchline repercussions is is okay anyway there's another gig here which i'm not going to do because people will take exception but anyway the punchline is not happy anyway we continue lose the music that's fine okay so the so that's the punchline I'm not going to give you the set. Yeah, I can fill in the blanks. So we've sort of moved things around a bit, but I'm just going to post this question to you. Okay. Because you didn't do it because we were talking to Stephen Bianco earlier. Here's the question before we go on. I'm going to leave a 10 second bit of silence on the podcast so that people can shout the answer. Okay. Here's the one question. What is five times more likely to be struck by lightning than humans? The answer is of course giraffes.

I know that's what you were saying. 30 times more likely in fact. Because it's just a height thing, is it? There are only five well-documented fatal lightning strikes on giraffes between 1996 and 2010. But due to the population of the species being just 140,000 during this period, that accounts for about 0.003 lightning deaths per thousand giraffes each year. Thirty times the equivalent fatality rate for humans. And yes, you imagine that height has got something.

Because they are basically lightning conductors' poles, aren't they? They're the kind of thing you put on the top of a church. Why is there a giraffe on the top of your church? Well, we could put the lighting conductors. Because there's four elephants in the car outside from as a throwback to last week's joke. Thank you very much. Which you didn't laugh at then and no I laugh at now. OK, what else is out?

Tell us something about you. The Iron Claw, a new movie by Sean Durkin, who made Martha Massey, May my Ling, which I loved, and The the nest also directing credits on the Alice Birch update of Dead Ringers on Prime Inspired by the true story of the Von Erich family who became American wrestling superstars Holt McElhaney is Fritz von Erich Domineering former wrestler now raising his sons to follow in the family business with Ominous consequences the iron claw was his signature move. He has passed this down to his son.

It's a good term also, not just for the wrestling move, but for the grip he and the profession have over the family who are trapped within the iron claw of his legacy. Zac Efron is Kevin, who is lined up to become a champion. Jeremy Ellen White is Kerry, whose Olympic dreams are dashed when the U.S. pulls out of the Moscow Olympics in 1980, so he has to come back into the fold. Harris Dickinson is David, not as bulky as his brothers, but still a contender. Stanley Simon is Mike, who prefers playing music in his band, but who is nonetheless pulled, drawn, Godfather-like, into the fold.

Kevin thinks his dad is too harsh on Mike, but then Mum Dor play by Mauritian. He says just sort it out between yourselves There is talk of a family curse Another brother died when he was young Kevin thinks that somehow doom surrounds them when he hooks up with Pam played by Lily James He tells her about the Von Eric curse that came to his father when his father changed his name from Akkisen To Von Erich the name comes at a price. Yes, it makes them famous, but it comes with a price He's also wedded to the idea that first and foremost his dedication is to his family And when she asks him what he dreams of he says just that is a clip. I want to be with my family You know be with my brothers of, he says, just want to be a vet. I want kids. I want my own practice. I want a man who's okay with that. Cool. So would you be okay with that?

Oh damn right I would. We could be one of those modern super couples. We have our own ranch. Everyone could come live with us, all my brothers, their families. Okay. Now, did you know anything about the story of the Von Erich family? No. No, because what I know about wrestling, nothing. So the first thing I did was I looked at the Wiki page in which it says, the story of the Von Erich family has been presented as a cautionary tale about parental influence, sibling rivalry, and the various dangers of

the professional wrestling business. What I know about wrestling is what I've seen in movies. So Mickey Rourke in The Wrestler is that kind of wounded bear being battered around the circuit, dragged from ring to ring. More recently, Gagasir Bernal, who was brilliant in Cassandro, in which he plays an Exotico, who became a hero on the Luchador circuit. This is somewhere between a hero on the Luchador circuit. This is somewhere between the wrestler and Cassandro with Fox Catcher being the sort of third part of the sort of triangulation that it's you know there's stuff there is there is tragedy out there that you know you which I didn't know about beforehand as I said this is quite a famous story I didn't know about it. So on the one hand the film is all about the pain of the world of wrestling.

You know, for all its fakery, for all its theater, for all its characters, you get thrown, you get bashed, you get hurt. I mean, those things are real, but it's also a film about family and masculinity in which the beatings in the ring are pretty much nothing compared with the beatings that are dished out at the dinner table by the overbearing patriarch father

who effectively rules the family with an iron rod. It turns out in fact that as the various unfolding tragedies unfold the real story is actually has a whole other character who also involved tragedy that the director said it was one more tragedy that the film couldn't withstand. When a director says real events were so dark that we actually backed off from them, you know that what you're dealing with is a story that is full. As I said at the very beginning, this sense of curse. There's lots of use of pop songs, Don't Feel the Reaper, Tom Sawyer. There's also a great score by Richard Repari which reminded me occasionally of Neil Yerks Neil Young's work on Jim

Jarmusch's Deadman, which is a score that I really really like The thing about it is that for a film that's essentially about really big balked-up guys, and I mean they are But you first see Zac Efron it was almost unrecognisably Hinch to use the word that is apparently. But it's also, it's very tender and it's very moving and watching it, I start thinking, this is almost the movie that pain and gain would be if it had been made by a man with

a soul rather than a void. Durkin's work has always been about people. It's about characters that you come to know and get involved with. And for all the bulk and the heft and the wrestling, which looks really convincingly real, it's about the inner turmoil, it's about loneliness and it also has a thread of redemption, which runs at the heart of the story.

And it does that thing that great drama does that takes a subject that you'll and I'd say that this was true of both the rest or Anxandre, that you become invested in the characters, even though I have absolutely no interest in wrestling at all. And I thought it was, yeah, oddly moving and oddly tender for a film that is in great part about very big blokes, smashing other very big blokes onto a very hard floor. Yeah. Good cast. And a great director and a very dark, but you know, cautionary tales, true life story.

Correspondents at cobinimere.com once you've seen it, if you'd like to join in for next week. That is also the email, if you want to attach a voice note to it and tell us about something cinematic that's happening near you, like this, for example. Hello, Simon and Mark. It's amazing, Mr. Peter Blundon here for your annual reminder to come

to the Rompford Horror Festival, which is taking place at the premier cinema in Rompford from 29 February to 3 March, as well as some 180 short and feature-length genre films from both today and classics from yesteryear, plus some very special guests including Cynthia Monroe from The Beyond, Ian McCulloch from Zombie Flesh Eaters and Caroline Munro from Maniac and a whole host of Hammer Films. More information is available at romfordhorrorfestival.com. Hello Simon and Mark, this is Alison Gardner from Glasgow Film Festival. From the 28th of February to the 10th of March we will be

celebrating the 20th edition of the festival. Across 12 packed days, we have 11 world and international premiers, 69 UK premiers and 15 Scottish premiers from 44 countries. With our free screenings every morning celebrating our story so far, there is something for everyone. Tickets are now available at GlasgowFilm.org. So that's Alison from the Glasgow Film Festival asking us to come to its 20th edition and before that the self-proclaimed Amazing Peter Blundin. Well the Amazing Mr Blundin, very good. Inviting us to the Romford Horror Festival. So if there's something that you're arranging or something near you that you want to tell us about, turn it into a voice note and send it to correspondentsatcovidema.com.

Before we're done, an email from Professor Katie Maddock, PhD, MAODE, PG Certificate, H.E., Dip Klin Farm, B.S.C., winner of Bridge North District Top of the Form, 1986 and 1987. Fantastic. Thank you, Professor Katie. Dear doctors, apologies for sending you a sad email, but I wanted to write to you to

pay tribute to my dear friend Pam Clark. Pam died on January the 24th after her last treatment for cancer failed to work. She was a very self-effacing person who would go out of her way to help anybody she could. She had that very rare quality of being genuinely interested in people and those who met her felt instantly at home in her company. In the 13 years that I knew her, Pam was many things to me. Craft buddy, ace quiz team member and gardening guru to name but three. But the biggest impact she made in my life was her induction of me into the N.C.G. wing of the church. N.C.G.? Non-compliant. Not quite sure.

Anyway, I'm happy that you're inducted into it. She was a huge fan of podcasts and told me over the garden hedge one day that I should listen to you to if I quote, fancy to giggle. Well, gentlemen, I took her advice and was immediately hooked. In the nine years since we've, you've been my comfort blanket in times of stress, Mark was quoted several times in

my inaugural lecture when I became a professor and Hanks for Everything was a lodestar during the darkest days of one thing and another. Pam was an intensely private person and I'm sure she would have been horrified to be held up publicly as a prime example of how small and simple acts of kindness can have huge impacts on people. However, this is the best way I can think of to pay tribute to a good and much missed friend. I don't really mind if this is read out loud or not, but I wanted you to know how much her introduction of me to you is appreciated. Anyway, take a detonk and of course down with the Nazis up, up with Bluehead Feminists and Tello to Jason Isaacs, and thank you, Pam, Professor Katie Maddock,

with all those qualifications. Katie, thank you, thank you for telling us about Pam. We appreciate the email very much. Correspondents at codemode.com, that is the end of Take One, a SOTY music entertainment production. This week's team, Lily, Gully, Vicki, Zaki, Matty, and Bethy, producer Mike E. And the redacted was Pooley.

Mark, what is your film of the week? I think I'm gonna go for Occupied City because I think it's really important. Take Two has already arrived and is landing alongside us as we speak. Lots of extra stuff, lots of extra recommendations and more with Steve McQueen.