Kermode & Mayo’s Take - The Brutalist + Mike Leigh & Marianne Jean-Baptiste on Hard Truths

Episode Date: January 23, 2025

‘The Brutalist’ is the epic structure on the horizon of this week’s movie releases; Mark reviews this fictional biopic of Hungarian architect László Tóth (Adrien Brody), a Holocaust survivor who arrives in America as an immigrant in 1947. Bauhaus trained and revered in his home country, László finds himself anonymous in a sometimes hostile USA—but gets a commission from a wealthy industrialist (Guy Pearce) that looks like the break he needs. Steven Soderbergh’s ‘Presence’ hits cinemas too this week—a ghost story in a troubled family home, shot from the perspective of the ghost. Plus don’t miss our ‘Flight Risk’ Embargo Special, coming up this  evening after 11pm, when the review embargo on the film lifts. Our guests this week are one of Britain’s best-known filmmakers, and one of its most revered dramatic actors: Mike Leigh and Marianne Jean-Baptiste. Their new film ‘Hard Truths’ hits UK cinemas next week. It follows the day-to-day life of Jean-Baptiste's Pansy, an explosively angry and depressed woman grieving her mother, whose barbed judgements of strangers and family alike can be searingly funny. Pansy seems to long for connection in her ailing relationships with her husband, son and sister, but is prone to pushing others away and further isolating herself. Simon sits down with the creative duo to talk about building this complex character, Leigh’s unusual working methods, and more. We’ll also take a moment this week to remember David Lynch, who we lost on 15th January, aged 78. One of the true greats of cinema, his singular surreal vision has inspired millions across his five-decade career. From Eraserhead and Blue Velvet to Twin Peaks, we hear from you about what his groundbreaking work meant. Timecodes (for Vanguardistas listening ad-free): Presence Review: 10:44 Mike Leigh & Marianne Jean Baptiste Interview: 28:57 Laughter lift: 41:51 The Brutalist Review: 42:32 Remembering David Lynch: 55:21 You can contact the show by emailing [e-mail] or you can find us on social media, @KermodeandMayo EXCLUSIVE NordVPN Deal ➼ https://nordvpn.com/take Try it risk-free now with a 30-day money-back guarantee! A Sony Music Entertainment production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts and follow us @sonypodcasts To advertise on this show contact: [e-mail] And to find out more about Sony’s new show Origins with Cush Jumbo, click here Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This episode is brought to you by MUBI, a curated streaming service dedicated to elevating great cinema. MUBI is the place to discover ambitious films by visionary filmmakers, all carefully handpicked, so you can explore the best of cinema streaming anytime, anywhere. Mark, what can people discover on MUBI this month? So we have The Girl with the Needle, which was nominated for Best International Film at the Golden Globes, which is an absolutely chilling based on a true story by Magnus von Horn. We reviewed it here on the show,

we talked about how it looked extraordinary. It was really, really disturbing, really, really got under my skin. There's also the first films first collection, which is now streaming on movie, which includes things like hunger, the debut feature from Steve McQueen with a standout performance by Michael Fassbender

and also Pepe Lucy Bum, which is the debut feature from Pedro Almodovar and is an absolutely anarchic riot. You can try MUBI free for 30 days at MUBI.com slash Kermode and Mayo. That's Mark, I'd like to introduce you to a new word. Hello, Simon. Hi. Do you want my new word? I feel I'm going to hear it anyway. Yeah, I think you'll like it. Okay, go on.

It arrived in my life courtesy of Susie Dent, who is the provider of many useful and topical words. And she did this on Blue Sky, which I saw just a few moments ago and I thought, I know someone who might actually use this word in actual actual conversation with actual real people. And the word is unassiness. It dates from the 17th century and you'll be amazed that this hasn't been part of the general discourse for a while. It means united in stupidity. Its literal meaning is one ass. One ass to serve us all. So the unassiness. States of America. United in stupidity. Isn't that an incredible, it's like unanimity. I think unanimous means one mind. Yes. So unassiness is one ass. Useful. Even if people get in this podcast, they go like to two minutes and stop.

They will feel as though we have been useful for the rest of their life. And this is not a political podcast, but I just thought I would put that in there in case you feel you need to use it at any stage. Very good. Unassiness. Unassiness. Yes, I'm definitely going to use that. Okay.

So a very warm welcome indeed, and a very welcome to this here pod. And Mark is going to be very busy with lots of things to do, reviewing, for example. Well, I'm going to be reviewing Presence, I'm going to be reviewing The Brutalist, and we have our very special guests who are... Yes, Mike Lee and Marianne Jean-Baptiste for Hard Truths, which is actually coming out next week where we get a chance to talk to them this week. And we're going to have some time to talk about the life and legacy of one of the greats who we lost this week.

Will Barron Yeah, we'll be talking all things David Lynch later in the podcast. And now I'm not sure what we can say about this, but we have an embargo special. Will Barron Yes. this, but we have an embargo special. Explain what's going on here because people will have seen that it's in their feed already, I think, but it isn't a part of this pod. Yes. There is a review of Flight Risk, which is the new film directed by Mel Gibson. The embargo on the review is 11pm.m. on Thursday night. So you're not allowed to say anything about the film before 11 p.m. on Thursday night.

Well, we've already recorded the review because I saw it a few days ago. But so that review will drop 11 p.m. on Thursday or thereabouts. We can't put it in this part of the podcast because obviously that will be breaking the embargo, which is something that we wouldn't do. So yes, 11pm on Thursday night to find out what I thought of the new Mel Gibson film.

I'm just going to do a quick Q&A about it with you, if that's okay. First of all, question number one, how long is it? It's actually not long. It's quite a nippy running time, under 90 minutes, I think. Is it in colour? It is in colour. And do the actors know their words in general, roughly? Yes, they all say their words out loud. Yes.

And is there music to go with the drama? There is some music, yeah. Okay. And that's it. That's the Q&A, because that's all we can say. I don't think any of that breaks the... Oh, what's it? Can I ask you what certificate it is? It's 15. Does that break the... It's 15. And I can actually tell you this in advance because obviously this isn't privilege information. It is 15 for strong language, violence, injury detail and threat.

Okay. All of those things we can deliver and say straightforwardly without fear of prosecution. Yes. Or intimidation. Or being struck off the screening list. That's right. Okay. So look for the separate podcast for all the details about flight risk. That'll be a separate pod altogether. Plenty of extras for the Vanguard as well, of course, including reviews from Markov. What's our bonus? Mason- Well, there are reissues of The Apartment, probably one of the greatest films ever made,

and Before Sunrise, the first instalment in an ongoing cinematic love story that for some of us of a certain age, we have genuinely grown up with. Mason- Also, our special edition recommendation TV movie of the week, Watchlist Not List, one frame back is related to flight risk. We've got some recommendations of your films set on a monkey flunking plane, plus your questions answered in questions smashes. You can get all of this via Apple Podcasts or head to to extra takes.com for non fruit related devices. A seven day free trial is still available. And if you're already a Vanguard Easter, as always, we salute you. Very good. This is from the, I mean, see, I'm not quite sure where there's a question smeshtian, but anyway,

it's an email from Harry. I've only just recently caught up with Kerber and Mayo's take on YouTube. Great stuff. I wish I'd found it before. I watched your worst films of 2024 and some of your comments made me think of my personal categorization of most films. It's nothing original, just an expansion of George Orwell's idea of good, bad books. Books that do not set out with any high intent, but achieve greatness. So the categories are good, good films, films that set out with high ambition, which they match in execution. Bad, good films, films that set out with high ambitions, that they crush into something miserable. And good, bad films, films that set out to be simple entertainment, but

achieve something compelling. For example, Harry contributes Tremors. I started by giving examples for the above categories, but erased them. I prefer to hear your unprompted opinions. And I'm pretty sure you disagree with more than one of mine. Anyway, Tremors is a no-brainer in this category. There's also bad, bad films with no ambition, no moral core, completely formulaic, badly acted, terrible in the execution and almost unfailingly appallingly edited. E.g. Pretty Much Anything with Steven Seagal. Also, to see where the Mel Gibson film fits into those categories, you'll have to listen to the separate podcast. It would be great to hear your rundown of this idea. Anyway, so good, good films, bad, good films, good,

bad and bad, bad. Anything strike you off the top of your head? Well, on the basis of, I mean, Tremors is a very interesting example because Tremors is one of those classic things about, you know, it's a B movie, bug movie, but it's great and everyone absolutely loves Tremors. And I think that's that's fabulous. I would I think I'm not giving anything away to say that in today's show, we're reviewing The Brutalist, which is a film with high ambitions. And I have to say a film that also punches pretty high. I'm completely with you on the Steven Seagal is bad, bad, although we do have to remember that when Steven Seagal first started out, when he was

making those films that just all had three words, you know, like, is it marked for death or out for justice or in for outside or up for, you know, whatever it was, that they had a certain amount of enjoyment in them because they were all the same plot, which was Steven Seagal walks around being Steven Seagal until somebody tells him that he wears his hair like a girl, at which point he kills everyone. There was a certain amount of enjoyment in some of those. After that, the point when you interviewed him when he was making the eco-friendly film, that was a bad, bad film.

All the Steven Seagal stuff after it stopped being straight to video violence, that's bad, bad. Bad, good. I mean, yeah, we said the tremors thing. Something that aims high and then, but then actually ends up being bad. I mean, so many films. So many films have got high. I would say probably Megalopolis is the best example.

Megalopolis, I think Francis for a couple of thought, he was making a work of artistic genius and in fact he made an unpolishable turd. Mark in Zurich goes next. Falling on from your review of William Tell where you mentioned the old hackneyed cliché about the Swiss giving the world just the cuckoo clock. Can I just say, hang on, before you go any further, I want to say I did say an idea which is widely debunked that we all know that the thing in the line about and what did Switzerland give us, the cuckoo clock. We all know it's true. And I also added my grandmother was Swiss. Hang on. I'd like to express my right to reply. I am Irish, living in Zurich and married to a Swiss woman. It's very likely the Swiss would take this insult about their country's heritage with a mild shrug and move on. So I would like to bring up just a few other things and people that the Swiss have given the world.

and people that the Swiss have given the world. Yes. Here we go. H.R. Giger, Carl Jung, Giacometti, Jean-Luc Godin, Roger Federer, Jean-Jacques Rousseau, Le Cabousier, Chocolate Bars, LSD, Direct Democracy, Ursula Andress, Paul Klee, Albert Einstein, and Mark Kermode's granny. I'm sure someone else out there will add a few more names to the list. By the way, the Cuckoo clock is in fact German. Love the show and the amazing production team. Up to the hilltops and down to the valleys marking Zurich. By the way, the redactor would like it noted that it is not a democracy if women don't vote,

and women in Switzerland only gained the right to vote in federal elections after a referendum in February 1971. No! Is that right? Yes. Do you know which the first place was that gave women the vote? The Isle of Man. Yes. Correspondence at Coventomare.com. Thank you very much.

Presence is out. Presence is reviewed and discussed right now. Okay, so this is a supernatural horror thriller from Steven Soderbergh, the prolific multi-hyphenate behind, well, Sex, Lies and Videotapes, the Oceans remake franchise, Erin Brockovich for which Judy Roberts won an Oscar, Traffic for which Benio del Toro won an Oscar. Contagion, which was that movie which was made in 2011, but then everybody started watching during lockdown because it seems so horribly prescient. Magic Mike, the first one, which is now a West End stage show and much, much more. Soderbergh, if you remember, officially retired from filmmaking in 2016. Since when he's made

up team films, he hasn't slowed down at all. So it was just like, I'm retiring. No, I'm not. Anyway, so this is the new Soderbergh, although it's not, it's the old new Soderbergh because there's already a new new Soderbergh, black bag in the bag, which opens in the US in March and will be here pretty soon. So presence is written by David Kep and I looked David Kep up to remind myself of his credits which include Jurassic Park, Mission Impossible, Kalito's Way, but Angels and Demons. He is apparently the ninth most successful screenwriter of all time in terms of US box office with total gross receipts of over 2.3 billion for films

that he's written. So he also directed, do you remember Stir of Echoes that we reviewed when we were together ages and ages ago? And I said it should have been called Pond of Wood. Anyway, so the star of Presence is a house, a suburban home, which we're introduced to at the beginning. There is a camera, Soderbergh's camera, because he's his own DP, walking around the building, showing us a kind of POV, like the POV of a lost spirit. Then this family come to the house to buy it, to move in. This is Lucy, who's Rebecca, Chris, Sullivan's Chris. They've got two kids. They've got this

teenage boy called Tyler, he's bratty. And then this troubled daughter, Chloe played by Kling Yang. And Chloe very rapidly senses something in the house. Maybe a poltergeist, maybe watching her, maybe moving around her books. Has anyone else seen it? Here's a clip. No, I haven't felt or sensed anything unusual yet. Has anyone else seen it? Here's a clip. Elaborate? I'm not sure I want to. Okay, maybe you and me can talk later.

At first I just sensed it, and then things moved. Moved? Yes. What things? A lot of things. I saw it. You saw it, you saw things move. I saw the aftermath.

I should just add, before you carry on, Mark, for new arrivals, just in case it's relevant, DP is director of photography, and POV is Point of View. Yes, POV. Thank you very much. Yes. And I actually smack on the back of the wrist for using those terms. I know how annoying it is. I mean, remember, I live with an academic who talks all the time with the DOF is meeting with the FCR and then they haven't got, I don't know what's going on. I know what's going on anyway. So yeah, the director of photography or cinematographer and point of view. So you heard in that there's a big score in the film. Anyway,

the brother, the son sort of sneers at his sister. He's very wrapped up in this friendship that he has with this kid that he's met, who soon takes a shine to Chloe. And this kid is played by Westmore Holland, which is a name which is rather like being called East Finchley, anyway. And he's got kind of slimy creep written all over him, despite his constant assurances to Chloe that you're in control. You know, this is all you, you're in control of everything. Meanwhile, the central character, Lucy Lou's character, she's sunk into her work.

We hear on the phone, she's sunk into her work. We hear on the phone, she's done something wrong at work and she's in danger of maybe being prosecuted. Her marriage seems to be on the rocks because we hear her husband on the phone at one point discussing some kind of legal issues. What plays out basically is a domestic drama. Domestic drama, not unlike a Mike Lee film, for example, in which we see people, you know, the cracks in the family, but we see it through the eyes of what seems to be

a wandering spirit, you know, which is an interesting, okay, wandering spirit POV point of view. And then it sort of mutates into a much darker drama about coercion and abuse and worse. Now, some of it is creepy and disturbing. Some of it is observant and interesting. Some of it is nasty and I have to say a bit silly. I think the best you can say is it's an interesting genre experiment. It's got some good ideas.

It does feel like a filler between more substantial projects, but Soderbergh does this quite a lot. He does these kind of experimental things like Kimi, which was also written by Kep. You remember that film, Unsane, when Claire Foy found herself in an asylum that she couldn't argue her way out of because whatever she said made her sound crazy. The spirit camera thing is a nice idea. It's short, it's under 90 minutes long. There are some nice twists. I have to say, I think that when it gets nastier, the nastiness felt oddly unearned.

And also, I think somewhere between, I don't want to give anything away, but I think that there are some people who will feel the film doesn't have the right to do what it does because it gets into an area that is pretty sensitive. In a way, because it does that, it makes me wish that the movie was more substantial, which it was never going to be. This is one of those things that you can imagine Soda Boat going, oh, I wonder what would happen if we did this. Oh, we did it. There we are. It's fine. Now on to the

next one. I said the next one is coming down the pike pretty soon. So it's, it is definitely an incidental Soderbergh movie. I think it's too incidental to carry the weight of the ideas that it ends up dealing with, but it's not without interest. And you can't knock the guy's productivity. I mean, this is a retired filmmaker. He's making films that makes Ridley Scott look like he's asleep on the job, frankly. I still am fascinated by, is that, Lytotes, I think it is, we've discussed this before, but when you say not without interest, it's not the same as saying there's something of interest. Yes, that's right. That's right. It is the double negative.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not without fault and so on. I love that expression. Okay. So Box Office top 10 this week, nowhere in the 10 as far as I can see here, question mark. So this is from... Terrible film. Just trying to see who this is actually from. Oh, it's from Kent. I thought that was the actual place that it had been sent from, but I think Kent is the person who sent it. Okay, as in Clark Kent. Exactly. Zemeckis seems to have begun his descent. Here was a film I had little interest in viewing. So quizzical minds speculate why did I then subject myself to it? I suppose like Shyamalan, you go in

with an inkling of hope. These guys have proven themselves capable storytellers, but regrettably have abandoned those gifts that marked them as grand. Thank you for continuing excellent in cinematic appraisals, all the best Kent from that sunburnt land down under. I see, thank you, Kent. And Eamon says, unfortunately, I had already booked my ticket to see here before hearing Mark's review last week. Robert Zemeckis has achieved something

quite remarkable with this film. For the modest budget of around $45 million, he has managed to recreate the essence of the video shorts you see in museums where actors in historical garb provide eyewitness accounts of a period in time. However, unlike here, those pieces rarely outstay their welcome. Warm regards, Eamonn. That's perfect. That's absolutely perfect. That's exactly right. So into the 10, a real pain is a 10. You and I both really liked, and I think it does. I was saying in that review of Presence that I think it doesn't earn the right to deal with the stuff that it deals with at the end. I think

in the case of a real pain, it does earn the right to deal with the very, very complex subject matter that it wrestles with. And I think that's quite remarkable. The other thing, which I did have it written down to discuss, but obviously the interview with Jesse Eisenberg and Kieran Culkin went off in a number of different unexpected areas. This has been discussed elsewhere. The fact that Kieran Culkin isn't Jewish in a very Jewish film. By the end of the film, that doesn't seem like a relevant question. Some people may think it still does. I know David Baddiel has often asked this question about Jew face and whether it's okay for people to play Jewish roles when they're

not Jewish. But I suspect that no one is going to say that because they'll agree with Jesse Eisenberg that the only person who could have played that role was Kieran Culkin. Is that fair? Yes. I think that is perfectly fair. Yeah. Yeah. And I was not troubled by that at all.

Number nine is Wicked. I probably said enough about that. I had the great privilege of, I interviewed Cynthia Erivo on stage at the BFI earlier on and she came on, you know, she wears those fingernails and she had the fingernails like about a foot long. It's absolutely extraordinary. Yeah, and I loved making it. I thought it was great and I can't wait for this time next year so I know how it ends.

Moana 2 is at number 7 in America, number eight in the UK. Eight weeks in the charts. And remember, this was originally designed as a straight to streaming project. So as of course was Toy Story 2. So hey. Number seven here is Wolfman. It's a new entry, an email from Matthew. I've been defending the potential of this movie for weeks. When people were saying it looked bad, I felt compelled to chime in with a, the fly meets wolf man, sign me up. Or, he's made upgrade and invisible man, the trailers aren't showing you everything, you just wait. Well, I was wrong. What a weak, dull movie. You know why the fly was good? Because Jeff Goldblum had charisma and charm and the script was funny and I cared about him and Gina Davis. I just didn't care about this man or his family or their relationship

or their kid. The transformation was boring, the fights were dull, it wasn't scary or funny or sad. It took too long to get going. If you're going to spend 40 minutes on set up, I need more than, I don't know if I love you or not and I don't think I'm a good mom. I'm genuinely disappointed. I wanted so much to like this. I had faith in the director and the slow burn long form transformation concept. His references from The Fly to Amore were on point. As you said, on paper this works. I'd say as a concept, 10 out of 10. Unfortunately in practice, it's a five. Yeah, a perfect review. Thank you, Matthew. Number six here, eight in America is Baby Girl.

Which I liked more than some people, but I'm glad to see it is still in the top ten. Some people I know have really, really taken against it, but I think although it doesn't entirely work, it does have a serious satirical intent. We live in time, is it number five? Very good central performances, which really kind of breathe life into what could otherwise have been a sort of formal exercise in time shifting. And Nosferatu is at four, number three in America. You want to say it again? Nosferatu?

Yes, For R2. Just, I had such a good time with this film. I just loved it. Sonic the Hedgehog three is at three. Oh, you know, Jim Carrey wasn't going to make another film until he got a script that really said something. And this really says something. It says it's been in the charts for four weeks. It's making a fortune. Sorry, come on. Sorry, Mephasta the Lion King is at number two here, number two in America as well.

I think both you and I share reservations. You know, hats off to Barry Jenkins for doing what he did, but it's not enough. Number five in the States, but the UK number one is a complete unknown. So a couple of emails. And from Chiswick. I went to see a complete unknown when it came out on Friday with my younger brother who looks like a young Dylan and plays the guitar very well too. I was sceptical as I had listened to your somewhat divided review of the film in last week's pod, although it was movie of the week, but can safely confirm that I am 100% with Simon on this one.

Sorry, Mark. I think the reason for this is quite simply the music. Dylan's songs are just so comforting and inspiring to listen to. And I thought that Timothy Chalamet's interpretation of them while still mimicking the growl of Dylan were even more melodious than Dylan's version of them. It was just tune after tune, poem after poem. And despite a bit of tampering with the facts, isn't the point of the film to celebrate and share the music? The students at the school where I teach music had not heard of Bob Dylan, but we are now singing choruses of Mr. Tambourine Man and Blown in

the Wind in class and they are hooked. I think if truly great music is the central character of any movie and you're someone that really gets and feels the music, then you just can't fail to have an enjoyable experience. The music always wins. Love the show, all the best, and in Chiswick. Daniel Reinold. The reason I took against Bo-Rap, as everyone was calling it, was because it presented as a straight biopic while taking enormous liberties with the truth. I don't know how many people I had to tell that Freddie did not know he had HIV prior to Live Aid and that the band was nowhere close to breaking up then, but Mark seemed to thoroughly enjoy it. I was surprised that he was so disturbed by a mere geographical error in A Complete Unknown,

especially since unlike the Bo-Rap lies, yes, there I said it, it still conveys the essential truth of the seismic event that was the Judas incident. Anyway, there's other correspondence about that. By the way, I just want to mention, thank you to the person who sent a wonderful observation. Again, I think this was on Blue Sky, who went to see a complete unknown, enjoyed it, went to the toilet afterwards, washed his hands afterwards, was drying his hands under the dryer and said to the person next to him, Pete Seeger would have put in a towel. And I thought that was very, very smart. Anyway, UK's number one is a

complete unknown. Yeah. I mean, look, I think it was really interesting you and I having that conversation about it because I really liked the was really interesting you and I having that conversation about it because I really like the sort of, you know, the back and forth of that. My reservations about it, as I've said, are they are largely personal. It was interesting. Earlier this week I did a show at the BFI and I found myself afterwards in my favorite pizza restaurant and I was talking loudly as I do. And I was talking loudly about the fact that you cannot move the Judas chant, the Judas heckle from Manchester to there. It's not just a gig. Anyway, there was a heated discussion at the table. Then later on, as somebody was leaving, the rest of them had been talking so loudly that they had heard, which embarrasses me terribly.

But they went, you're right, you can't move the Judas thing. Of course you can. And of course there was an argument that was made by James Mangold, and how that sits with you is entirely up to you. I think there are many things that the film gets right. I just, it never, to use the phrase I use, it never got me in the fields. And it may well be that I, you know, it's to do with the partial ambivalence about Dylan, but the film is very ambivalent about Dylan. You know, the thing, I think the thing to credit it with is that it does indeed portray him as, as Monica Barbaro's Joan Baez says, a bit of an asshole. And I think that's fine. But, you know, I'm, just one other thing on the film, which maybe we mentioned last week, I don't know if we did. I think for Biopic, it concentrates to a remarkable extent, this sounds a bit weird, concentrates

to a remarkable extent on the songs which you hear all the way through. You don't get chopped up montages or anything. When he sings Blown in the Wind, because Joan Baez has chucked in the sheet, says sing this okay, it's a little bit contrived, But you get the whole thing and then she harmonises on the end. It does really hang the whole thing on his music. It does. And the only comparison I could make with that is Asif Kapadia's film about Amy Winehouse, which of course was a documentary, but in which it told the story through her lyrics. I think that is a strength of the film. Correspondence at Codemode.com, we'll be back with, well, we're going to be talking about The Brutalist.

Mark's going to be talking about David Lynch and our guests, Mike Lee and Marianne Jean-Baptiste. Well, this show is sponsored by NordVPN. Hey Mark, you know what people say about this time of year? That it's perfect for huddling together with a warm blanket, a mug of cocoa, and the best movies and of course movie podcasts around? Well, ideal for taking an early ski trip to L'Alp de Huy. What's wrong with the Alps? Yeah, well I was going to say that it's dank, dark and miserable, but you convinced me really.

And if you're here or there, whatever you're watching, Pleasures, Nord can help. It connects you to servers in 111 countries. You can use it on up to 11 devices and unlock content from around the world. Whether you're under a woollen blanket or gliding across a blanket of snow, Nord keeps you safe from trackers and hackers By hiding your details when you're connected to public wi-fi built-in threat protection and even dark web alerts this january with our link You get an additional four months free on the two-year plan and with nords 30-day money back guarantee There's zero risk check out the link in the episode description

Well, hello there simon amark here to tell you about indeed risk. Check out the link in the episode description. Indeed is your matching and hiring platform, with over 350 million global monthly visitors, according to Indeed data. And if you're busy watching all of this week's film recommendations and you have no time, then you can use Indeed for scheduling, screening and messaging, so you can connect with candidates faster. But Indeed doesn't just help you hire faster. 75% of employers claim Indeed delivers the highest quality matches compared to other online job sides.

Leveraging over 140 million qualifications and preferences every day, Indeed's matching engine is constantly learning from your preferences. So the more you use Indeed, the better it gets, like us. Why not join the more than 3.5 million businesses worldwide that use Indeed to hire great talent fast. Listeners of this show will get a £100 sponsored job credit to get your jobs more visibility at indeed.com slash KermodeMayo. That's indeed.com slash KermodeMayo. Terms and conditions apply.

Need to hire. You need Indeed. Indeed. What's up, Mark? All's well. How about you? Well, I've been thinking about that cushion that we gave away at our live show. That and the pencil case. Imagine if we had a load more that we needed to shift. Imagine the riches.

Every bottom or pencil case in the country would be graced in some way by our presence. Well, when you put it like that, we should have used Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform revolutionising millions of businesses worldwide from people selling compasses to comfy cushions. It covers all your sales channels from a shop front ready POS system to its all-in-one e-commerce platform. It gets you selling across social media marketplaces. Oh, and it's full of the industry leading tools ready to ignite your growth.

Shopify gives you complete control over your business and your brand without learning new skills in design or coding. And thanks to award-winning help, Shopify is ready to support your success every step of the way. Sign up for a £1 per month trial period at shopify.co.uk slash curmode. You wouldn't like it if I taught you girls like that. And said what? Why are you going out exposing your belly to the world? What you doing dressed up in a squeeze-up, tie-top, yoga pants and you're not even in the gym?

You wouldn't like it. You wouldn't like it at all. Some sisters are close, you know. Some sisters confide in each other. You can confide in me. No, if I don't call you, you don't call me. I'll call you. No, I have to call you and say,

oh, Chantelle, my hair needs doing. Oh, Chantelle, my back is hurting. Can you pick me up a couple of things from Kilburn? I call you. Hey, put down them scissors. You're getting aggressive. That is a clip from Hard Truths. I'm delighted to say we've been joined by Mike Lee,

its director and its star, Marianne Jean-Baptiste. Mike and Marianne, hello, how are you? We're good, thank you. Yes, we're great. We can see you sitting on a sofa. Where are you speaking to us from? Central London. It's very nice of you to spend some time with us. Thank you very much indeed. Mike, introduce us to your film, please. Introduce us to the hard truths of your movie.

Mike, introduce us to your film, please, to the hard truths. Should I try and move it closer? No, no, it's not a question, it's a double question. I'd rather not answer that question, I'm sorry. Okay. Marianne, could you introduce us to Pansy, your extraordinary character at the heart of this film? Well, Pansy is a woman who is, when we meet her in the film, going through a

very difficult time in her life. But as you watch it, you realise that most of her life must have been difficult. She's angry. She's in a lot of pain and she takes it out on anybody that she comes into contact with. Mike was wanting to work with Marianne again, the start of you building this story for us. Yes, I mean, we've wanted to work together for a long time because obviously, the last time was on Secrets and Lies in the mid-90s and we've been talking about doing it for a while. And we've been talking about doing it for a while. And yeah, the first decision was to make a film with Marianne,

very much at the centre of things. And I knew that because she's such a versatile character actress, that we would collaborate and create something, a character of great complexity, and that's what we've done. Mike, can you explain for our listeners how you go about creating a character with an actor? Yeah, I mean, we make these films, as you know, Mark,

by embarking on a journey, discovering what the film is in the process of making it. The first thing that I always do with each actor individually, and we're working separately and we did this, Marianne and I, is I asked Marianne to make a list as long as you like of real women that she's met, people that she's known well, people she's hardly known, not that she likes or dislikes or anything, just a general list, a comprehensive list. And that's what she did.

And I just sit and listen and gradually I may say, let's get rid of her, let's get rid of her, let's stick with her. And finally we get it down to a small number of real people who then we kind of put together in a way that I can't really describe because it's a trade secret and that's the source, that becomes the source of the character. So the important thing about that is that we are working from life, we're not just making something random up in a vacuum, but then the job is to put the characters together, different characters, and to allow to get a world to come into existence, a world of

characters, relationships, backstory, issues which involves discussion and research and as much as anything else, a huge amount of actors improvising in character, bringing the whole world of those characters into existence. Marianne, obviously you've worked with Mike before, both on film and in theatre. Can you say something about how unusual this process that you go through with Mike is?

Oh yeah. I mean, you know, to begin with, you go into it, not knowing what it's going to be about, what you're going to be playing in it. Um, but once you get in there and you start building the character with him, there's a lot of agency, because you're collaborating with him to create the character, to create their world. And nobody else really works like that.

And I mean, the collaboration goes on. You're working with the production designer, you're working with hair and makeup, you're working with costume, having discussions about your character and what they would wear, what their home would look like. I mean it's, you never get that opportunity. You see as far as I'm concerned, actors are creative artists in their own right when they're working in this environment. And the job is to collaborate, just as I collaborate with the cinematographer or the designer,

so collaborate with the actors. And they are, you know, for me it's important that they make more contribution beyond just interpretive acting. They are really contributing in the real sense of artists. Yeah. Mariani, can you introduce us to the, because there are two families at the heart of this. Your sister Chantelle, played by Michelle Austin, who you worked with before, of course, but they are integral to how this story unfolds. Your house, Pansy's house is a joyless house, a pristine house, a soulless house. Your sister's house is joyful and messy. Could you just tell us a bit about how that comes out on screen? Well, you've just kind of said it.

Okay. But you know, I think what it's saying is it's talking about two women raised in the same house, same parents, and how they can be so different. You know, how one can enjoy life, enjoy people, have a great sense of humor, be warm and loving. And while the other one is afraid of life, is afraid to really engage with people, hates people actually, is scared of so many things. I mean there's countless list of things that Pansy is afraid of or doesn't like. So I think it's really exploring that relationship, you know, and how different they are. But there's still, I think, a lot of love between the sisters, although it's not sort of expressed in the

same way. Is Pansy trapped? Yes. Yeah, she is trapped. I think she's trapped in a prison of her own making, to a certain extent. One of the things that's remarkable is that Pansy is so full of anger and fear. I've now seen the film projected in two separate cinemas and have been surprised by the amount of laughter that it's provoked. And I wonder whether when you're in that character, did you find any of it funny,

or was the laughter something that happened after the fact? I think there's a bit of both. Obviously you're not, you know, I've got a great sense of humor, pansy has it. So when you're in character, you're not thinking about it being funny. Because I mean, she just found these encounters to be irritating, annoying.

And so that's what you're playing. Obviously you have this little monitor, you know, that's monitoring the character. And yes, some of it at times was sort of like, oh Christ, she didn't say that, did she? But when we were, because obviously we script these films, this film being no exception, we script it through rehearsal.

Having done months of improvising in character, we then go to the locations and we set up improvisations and then we take those and they become the basis of the action which we then break down and build up and script through rehearsal. Now in that process, Marianne and I would be in a sense collaborating on precisely what she says and therefore our sense of humor about pansies, of course we were conscious of. And there are certain lines when I would say to her, why don't you say this?

And she might say, yeah, or actually, how about this? And most of it, a lot of it comes out of what Marianne does spontaneously and organically through in character, but we add to that and we hone it. And so we are very aware of the hilarity of some of her stuff that she comes out with, but that's partly because we are in fact collaborating to make her happen, basically. A question for both of you, if I may. I have this general theory and sense that COVID and the pandemic will influence storytelling for a generation.

And I'm not sure whether Pansy is a timeless person, this setup is a timeless story, or whether it's actually very 2024 2024 and that COVID has been an accelerant for Pansy in her disconnection with everybody and everything. I think we agree that really this is not, she exists irrespective of COVID. I mean, we could have made this film 10, 20 or 30 years ago in principle, because what it's actually about in terms of the relationships and not least in terms of pansy and this kind of person with her kind of condition is universal. It's not it's not a function of Covid.

I mean, of course, it is a post-Covid film in the sense that it obviously takes place in the 2020s and therefore it's post-Covid. Covid is actually referred to one and a half times in the sense that it obviously takes place in the 2020s. And therefore, it's post COVID. COVID is actually referred to one and a half times in the film. People say, Yeah, well, but she fancy would have been locked up in our house during COVID. And but she gets she's locked up in the house anyway. So you know, it really isn't in any it certainly wasn't consciously, and I don't think it really is local to the post-COVID epoch that we're now in as such. Is it tougher to get your work made now, Mike, or is it easier when people look at the reviews that this movie is picking up, will you expect Amazon and Netflix

and the other streamers to be thinking, yep, we want to be part of your next project, please? No, they won't. It's quite categorical that they won't. And the reason they won't is, I mean, the mantra I've heard from the likes of them is, we respect what you do, we like what you do, but not for us. And not for us is code for we can't get involved in a project that we can't mess about with, insist on casting, restructure the script, change the end, and generally mess it about and make a pig's ear of it. And the bottom line is that they won't be interested and I don't expect for a split second that there's going to be any change.

Let me just say, however, that Peter Lu, my last film, was backed almost entirely by Amazon because they were new on the block and they had a remit to back that kind of film at that time. But they're no longer new on the block and they don't want to know, basically. My suspicion is that Hard Truths will become one of your most quoted movies. I mean, there are films like Naked and like Nuts in May that people regularly recite lines from. My suspicion is that hard truths will become one of those. The strange thing is that even in the trailer when there's the thing about they've got the baby's outfit with the pockets, what's the baby going to

do with pockets? Already I hear people quoting that. It's unusual since the film deals with such a dark subject matter, but with such love and with such levity built into it. Do you feel already that you've made one of your classics? MW No, because with all due respect, one does not think in those terms. CB Come on, Mike, come on. MW If I told you that, well, actually last night I lay in bed thinking to myself, oh my God, I've made one of my classics. You would think what a twerp this guy is, you know, what a terrible self-indulgent, self-congratulatory, well I won't use the word I'm going to but you know what word it is.

Yeah, no, but I'm glad to hear that you think that, and on the whole, you're usually right. So this is good news, really. Mike, I think that's the nicest thing you've ever said to me. On the whole, you're usually right. Marianne, do you think it might be a classic? Yes, I do. It's a lovely film. It really is.

Marianne and Mike, we appreciate your time. Thank you very much indeed for trying to turn the volume up on the computer. We appreciate your time with us. Thank you very much indeed. So Hard Truth's proper review will be on the show next week, as will be hopefully the director of our next movie. We're never quite certain about this because everything is a movable feast, but let's talk about The Brutalist. Hopefully Mr Corbett will be with us next week, but who knows?

What we do know is that Mark can tell us what he thinks. Will Barron Yes, because it's out this week. This is the new feature from co-writer and director Brady Corbett. He's had the most extraordinary career. Behind the camera, feature credits include Child of a Leader and Vox Lux, but first rose to prominence as an actor with roles in Lars von Trier's Melancholia, Michael Hanecker's English language remake of Funny Games, and of course, most importantly, the 2004 Thunderbirds movie in which he was Alan Tracy. So he has really walked the full length of the counter.

Will Barron Actually, yes, I remember that. And yes, he does look like Alan Tracy. Of course he does. It's just like, wow. So this one, Silver Line, best director, winner, premiered at Venice, best actor, director of motion picture drama at the Globes. This is currently, I've just checked before when doing this review, it is currently favorite to win best picture at the Oscars, which is remarkable considering it's a three and a half hour epic, albeit with a built-in intermission about architecture broken into chapters entitled The Enigma of Arrival, The Hardcore of Beauty and the First Architecture Biennale, which does not sound like a big popular crowd pleasing winner. like, you know, a big popular crowd pleasing. So this is co-written by Monofastfold, who

co-wrote Childhood and Vox Lux, but directed The World to Come. That incredibly bleak tale of hardscrabble frontier existence for which you interviewed Vanessa Kirby. Do you remember this a few years ago? It's the two of them out in a house, out in the front, and it's very, very grim. This also has a certain amount of bleakness at its core. Adrian Brody, who won an Oscar for the piano, is Bookie's favorite to win again, although he has got strong competition from Timothee Chalamet. He plays Laszlo, who's a Hungarian Jewish architect, survivor of the Holocaust, who emigrates to America after the war. In his home, he was known as a great architect and trained in the Bauhaus. Here, he's just another immigrant.

He stays with his cousin, who runs an interior design and furniture business, and who lands a commission from the son of a very wealthy industrialist, played by Guy Pearce, to renovate this library. He says, it'll be a surprise for my dad. He doesn't know about it. So Laszlo's got these grand ideas for the renovation and he completely redesigned the library, which is meant to be a surprise. But then when Guy Pearce's character comes back

and finds out what he's done, he's furious and he throws them out. Years later, Laszlo is now heroin addict. He's living in charity housing, but it turns out that his library renovation has become the talk of the town. And he is tracked down and he meets again with Harrison Lee Van Buren, the guy for whom he did it, who asks him to design a new community center in honor of his late mother. Here's a clip. We'll talk about the details at home, but you'll be well compensated. And also, you'll be given a place here on the property

to live and work. I think that residing here will allow you the time and the space to conceive of it properly. And your family, should they arrive, they're welcome here too. What do you say? So he says yes, and immediately set about trying to get his wife, as played by Felicity Jones and his orphan niece, Sophie played by Raffy Cassidy, to America as he begins

work on the project. But relations between him and Harrison are strained because changes start getting made to his design, gradually things start to unravel. Now, Corbett has described the brutalist as, this is a quote, he said, a film which celebrates the triumphs of the most daring and accomplished visionaries are ancestors. And the project, he said, that is closest to his heart and family history. And there, whilst you're watching it, it is very tempting to think this must be based on a real story because it does, it kind of has that feel to it, although it is a work of fiction. On the one hand, there is an element of the fountainhead in it, the Aymarand

novel, which was filmed in late 40s with Gary Cooper as an architect who would rather destroy a building than accept that changes have been made to his design. And it's a very, very famous than accept that changes have been made to his design. And it's a very, very famous book and a famous film adaptation. On the other hand, there's an element of Once Upon a Time in America because it is an epic tale of immigration, of people being in America where dreams are meant to flourish, but actually the American way of life has a strange effect on them. This is shot by Kobe's regular DP, Lowell Crawley. It's shot in VistaVision. The way VistaVision works is it's 35 mil stop, but you shoot horizontally. Anyway, complicated process, but it means that it's got a grand

feel to it. A lot of people will be interested in which format it is that they see it in when it's projected. And Kobe said that the reason they did this was it was the best way to access the period of the film. And it's beautifully production designed. It's got great music. I read a couple of reviews of it because it premiered a while ago now.

And there was one negative review which said, it is it premiered a while ago now. There was one negative review which said, it is an idea for a movie about ideas. I think that phrase is interesting because I think that if that's not a criticism, it is full of ideas. Exactly which idea is paramount I think does depend on the viewer. You could say it's about art versus capitalism. It's about anti-Semitism and Israel and Zionism. It's about love and jealousy. It's about admiration and assault. It's about the difference between patronage and patronisation, and to take the title of the film, brutalism and brutality. And it is about an America in the past, but he's also about the America of today. As I said, the Oscar talk for Adrienne Brody, I think Felicity Jones nearly steals

the show. I mean, considering that her screen time is much less, I mean, I think her presence in the film is quite devastating. There's a thing, if you've seen the poster, one of the posters for it has a statue of Liberty turned upside down because when he gets off the boat he looks up and he sees the statue and just because of the angle of the thing it looks like it's upside down. You could maybe read that as Liberty turned on its head or the world turned upside down. I think the most remarkable thing is about it. Firstly, it's a very inexpensive movie. The budget for it is apparently $9.6 million. Now, I know there's been some scuttle recently about use of AI and I haven't really followed it. Honestly, I'm not that interested. This is a $10 million movie that's expansive and

has that vision, and it's extraordinary that it got made for that much. It is long, but I confess that it did not feel long to me. I don't know that all of it works, but certainly there is enough going on that, I mean, you spend a lot of the movie thinking, what is this actually about? And I think that's a debate that will rage for a long time afterwards about what you actually take away from it. But I thought it was a genuinely heartfelt and really well-crafted film that managed to be full of ideas. Even as I said, that negative review saying it's an idea of a movie about ideas. I think it is a movie of ideas and I think that he's found a way of telling this story. I think it's his most accomplished feature. I really

liked it. Did you like it, Simon? I kind of liked it. I didn't like it as much as you did because I don't think it earned its running time. And 220 would have been fine. And that's quite a long film. But I did think it will feel very timely because it is a film about immigration and it is a film about the other and a film about what people from over there bring to over here and how we kind of get on or don't. And so that opening sequence, where they were, which is sort of at the end of the second world war and the arrival into America feels particularly with what's been going on the last couple of weeks, it just feels

an incredibly timely film. I agree with you about Felicity Jones and Guy Pearce, particularly. I thought they were very good. I just felt that very few stories need to be told over that amount of time. Okay. I think it's interesting that for you, that thing, the timeliness, particularly, this is the week that it's coming out. This happens to be the week of the inauguration, and obviously all these executive orders that have been signed already. I think that what's really fascinating is if you see this film in a year's time,

it may look like it's about other things as well. And I think that's what's remarkable is that I think it's got a kind of kaleidoscopic quality. I'd be very interested to watch The Brutalist in five years' time and wonder what it felt like it meant then. Just to ask you, were you ever bored? I think I was a bit, because the pace is obviously deliberately slow. I would have quite liked to have understood more about brutalist architecture, because you don't really. I mean, there is a section where they're discussing where Adrian Brody is telling us about the joys of concrete, which has a little bit of it in it, but would you be able to describe brutalist architecture any better at the end of the movie?

I'm not sure. Well, I mean, and then that's really, again, central to is it really about architecture? For a film that has so much architecture in it, pardon me, it's like is the fountainhead a complete, you know, is that just a total red herring that it isn't really about that at all? Yes. And I think that's the kind of fascinating. There is one sequence in it in which it is explained why a building was particularly designed in a particular way.

And there's a kind of a-ha light bulb moment. It's like, oh, I see. But other than that, there is actually surprisingly little discussion of that stuff, which is again why I say it makes me sort of think it's not really about that. I'm really fascinated to hear your conversation with Brady Corbett because I know he's done interviews and everything, but I'd be interested to know what he talks about with you in terms of what you found interesting about the film. If indeed he does. If indeed he does.

But we, you know, we hope that he, yes, we hope that he does. Correspondence at cobedomeo.com, ads in a minute, Mark. First, let's leap with joy in our hearts. Oh, is it that time? It's laughter lift time. Hey! Hey, Mark. What was, this is a rhetorical question, by the way, you don't have to answer. What was your weakest subject at school?

Mine was classics. I was never any good at the Greek myths for some reason. I always thought it was my Achilles nostril. Anyway, not going too well at home. Never seems to be going too well at home. I'm surprised you're still married. The good lady ceramicist had a diagnosis email come through from the doctors and she couldn't bear to read it.

I'll do it, I said. And it read, Dear The Good Lady Ceramicist, her indoors, conveniently, you have a very unusual and tricky infection. Well, she said, what's the cure? Well, the cure are a post-punk band formed by Robert Smith in 1976, who were highly influential on the goth subculture of the 1980s. But let's try to stay focused. That's it, she said, along with your Star Wars obsession.

I cannot stand this anymore. I'm leaving. May divorce be with you, I said. I've no idea where she is now. There you go. That's all in the delivery. Say, Mark, what are we doing next? Firstly, can I just say, find me another show that goes from a review of The Brutalist to The

Laughter Lift via Thunderbirds. And next, we're remembering the great David Lynch. After this. I'm like so worried about my sister. You're engaged. You cannot marry a murderer. I was sick, but I am healing. Returning to W Network and StacTV.

The West Side Ripper is back. If you're not killing these people, then who is? That's what I want to know. Starring Kaylee Cuoco and Chris Messina. The only investigating I'm doing these days is who shit their pants. Killer messaged you yesterday? This is so dangerous. I gotta get out of this. Based on a true story.

New season premieres Monday at 9 Eastern and Pacific. Only on W. Stream on Stack TV. Tex and Diane had it all. Until the night, neither of them wished to relive. The night only one of them can. She said, Tex, what did you do? You shot me. Join us as we dive deep into a world of power, money,

and greed. And one man's secret quest to grab the million dollar fortune of his deceased wife. From Sony Music Entertainment and Waveland Road, this is Deadly Fortune. Listen wherever you get your podcast. Now, as you will be aware, David Lynch died last week, aged 78. You've been sending us lots of emails and stuff on social media about David and his films. Mark, how many times did you interview him? Quite a few times. Six or seven, I think, altogether. I mean, over a number of years. I mean, I was a huge

fan. Just, I mean, I imagine everyone knows, but so, you know, Lynch was an artist and painter who in that lovely documentary talks about him saying, go, if only you could make paintings move. And then someone going, you can, it's called cinema. Made Eraserhead in the seventies, which was one of the definitive cult movies of the era that, you know, we all saw it late night. I saw it at the Phoenix and East Finch. The other people saw it at the Scala. The Elephant Man, which was produced by Mel Brooks, who famously described David Lynch as Jimmy Stewart from Mars, which is the most perfect description. Jimmy Stewart from Mars is exactly what he was. He did the feature film of Dune before the Villeneuve

film, Blue Velvet, which is an extraordinary work. The first time I saw it, it completely hit me the wrong way and I walked out because I was so shocked by it. And then I saw it again and thought it was a masterpiece. Wild at Heart, which is a huge success. Twin Peaks, Fire Walk with Me, which was kicked all around town by critics except me, Alan Jones, Nigel Floyd, Kim Newman, all of whom loved it, thought it was the great horror film of that year. I ended up having the great privilege of writing the sleeve notes for the soundtrack

because I got to know Angelo Badalamenti. Lost Highway, Straight Story, Mulholland Drive, and then Inland Empire. He was the great American surrealist and there've been so many filmmakers and people working in the industry paying tribute to him. It is since the news of his death I've watched Twin Peaks before I walked with me again. I was, funnily enough, been working my way through Twin Peaks, the TV series, the original series, and Twin Peaks The Return and just breathtaking levels of

invention. I think the thing that's most important to say is having interviewed him a few times, he was very funny. He was very, very funny. He had an amazing sense of humor. If you have a moment, if you go onto YouTube, there's a thing, it's either called David Lynch's best moment or David Lynch owns Mark Kermode. And it's me and David Lynch on stage at the BFI. And I asked David Lynch this really, really long question about what electricity means in his films. And I'm saying, you know,

it seems to me like it's to do with the synaptic nerves and the thing. And it's like a visual metaphor. And the thing that's brilliant is I had asked him this question about a month previously, because I was doing an interview with him about Transcendental Meditation for which he was a great advocate. He really believed in TM. And he gave me like a half hour answer about this. And I asked him the same question on stage, live at the NFT. And he sits there all the way through the question and I go, you know, is there some truth in that? And he goes, no. And the whole audience burst into laughter. And the genius of it is, the genius of it is his comic timing was incredible. I mean, yeah, an extraordinary filmmaker.

Some of the correspondence that we've got will spread. Most of it is here. And there's also some of it in take two as well. Abby on Blue Sky, the first time I saw Lost Highway, it was like looking at the underside of my brain. I didn't know films could unsettle me from the inside whilst also being so beautiful. Just watched Inland Empire for the first time. Laura Dern's performance is completely extraordinary. Amazing. Rob Upton says, it's an awesome Blue Sky, when at school, my art teacher, who still works at the school by the way, played us Eraserhead in full as an introduction to Surrealism. We were 12 years old.

No, no, that's not right. No, it has its place in education, but not. So this is like top end primary or first year, secondary. Wow. That's a little early. Doug says, after the death of David Lynch, I went to see Twin Peaks Fire Walk with Me at the Prince Charles Cinema in London. It was a sold out screening with a genuinely loving atmosphere from all who attended with

the cinema playing one of Lynch's weather reports before the film to much applause. Do you just want to say what they were? He would do these weather reports when he'd sit by the window and go, can you believe it? It's Friday again. It's a sunny day. It was just like, it was the thing that people became really addicted to them during lockdown because it was just like, it was something to hang your hope on. So Doug says, Firewall with me, like many of Lynch's films, was derided on release. However, time has revealed it to be a thoughtful and inspired piece of filmmaking.

Much of Lynch's work is about uncovering the darkness of classic Americana, and this is perhaps his most disturbing attempt. What begins as a fun Twin Peaks adventure, in fact, turns into one of the most harrowing depictions of patriarchal violence ever put to screen. It's a horror film about the horrors that often come from those closest to us and from those meant to love us. Cheryl Lee and Ray Wise both suit Lynch's vision brilliantly and the film is packed with tense, frightening and unforgettable sequences.

It is hard to believe it was dismissed and even mocked when it first came out. I'm glad history has vindicated David Lynch and the film is now seen for what it is. I'm showing this because I know Mark was at the forefront of the critical reevaluation of Firewall with me and thought he might be interested to know that the film is still finding an audience. Twin Peaks is all the rage amongst 20-somethings these days. Perhaps he'll give himself a pat on the back. I look forward to next rewatching Lost Highway on the big screen, possibly the best film of my birth year 1997. I mean, I want to say, not the critical re-evaluation, evaluation. There was four of us loved it when it first came out. There was famously a review of it in an American journal which said, in

Twin Peaks, nothing is what it seems. This isn't the worst movie ever made. It just seems like it, which is a very smart, sharp piece of writing but completely wrong. Baptiste in Belgium. I watched Twin Peaks and my world changed. I definitely understood who David Lynch was and what we had in common. He was the person I wish I had the courage to be. If only my reality wasn't so insidious and frustrating. More importantly, he helped me through my depression. Like many of his films, I find it hard to explain. Maybe he changed my relationship with sleep. Whereas I used to let myself be controlled by my nightmares, I now see them with more nuance and hindsight, as if David himself was yelling, cut, through his megaphone, every time I wake up, allowing me to focus

on the staging and the acting of my dreams rather than my feeling of panic. Maybe he changed my relationship with fear, anxiety, and hatred. Whereas they seemed alien and destructive to me, I now see them as shadows, making the picture of existence more enigmatic than frightening. Maybe I identify with his contradictions and his philosophy, which allows me to have a mental anchor when I lose contact with my true self. Beyond the soothing effect on my mental health, I always learned a lot as an artist, technically by analyzing his methods, the dichotomy within his work, the mix of apparently irreconcilable influences into a single peculiar and homogenous style, and the pathos that he would take with

a certain nonchalance, not worried whether we would follow him or not. Philosophically, by constantly reminding me that art, in spite of all its rules, is a space of freedom. Even if the interpretation belongs to the public, the parameters of creation belong entirely to the cast. Anyway, I just want to thank him for having been one of us and one of the best of us. To quote the straight story, it's been a genuine pleasure having you here David, right to us sometime. All the love and sorry for the long email. Baptiste in Belgium, thank you.

And I just want to do one more before we finish in this bit from Ben Bradford. I have to be honest, I don't think I've seen any of David Lynch's films, so I would love to know where to start. Okay, maybe we can address that. The Elephant Man is a very good place to start, I think. And Beth in Swansea, this is the final one, should be noted that, so David Lynch and Tobacco, which is the background, if you don't know. So he was a famous, he was smoked from the age of eight, wasn't he?

Would that be right? It was something about which he was enthusiastic, yes. Yes. But Beth says it should be noted that David Lynch spoke out against smoking towards the end of his life. Quote, I can hardly walk across a room. It's like you're walking around with a plastic bag around your head. I really wanted to get this across.

Think about it. You can quit these things that are going to end up killing you. And that was what he said in a recent interview. I would urge anyone who wants to quit to head to the NHS website for advice. I can think of no better tribute to David Lynch than saving your own life. Beth in Swansea. That is fantastic. That is absolutely fantastic. And I think you're quite right that that would be a great tribute. I smoked constantly and he talked about how much he enjoyed smoking whilst also accepting that it had done him terrible damage. So I think that would be great.

Also bear in mind, I said Lynch was a great advocate of TM and he thought that transcendental meditation really could solve a lot of problems. I'll leave you with this. I interviewed Lynch once in Paris when Lost Highway came out. It was the morning after the Paris premiere of Lost Highway. The film had got amazing reviews, absolutely amazing reviews. David Lynch said to me, the incredible thing is they screened the reels in the wrong order. He got some of the best reviews ever. I said, wow, how do you feel about that?

He said, I think it's wonderful. Wonderful the way that the human mind is able to put order and meaning onto disorder. As far as he was concerned, it was great. People had watched the film in the wrong order, but their brains had imposed meaning onto it. Most directors would blow a gasket. Not Lynch. Okay more of this in take two.

That's the end of take one though. It's been a Sony Music Entertainment production. This week's team, Jen, Eric, Josh, Vicki, Zachie and Heather. Producer was Jem, the redactor was Simon. And if you're not following the pod already, heaven knows why you wouldn't be. But anyway, do so wherever you get your podcast. Mark, what is your film of the week? Oh, definitely The Brutalist. There will be more of this nonsense in take two, which has already landed

in fertile ground adjacent to this podcast. So we'll see you soon.