Kermode & Mayo’s Take - The Last of Us with Craig Mazin

Episode Date: May 15, 2025

Vanguardistas have more fun—so if you don’t already subscribe to the podcast, join the Vanguard today via Apple Podcasts or extratakes.com for non-fruit-related devices. In return you’ll get a whole extra Take 2 alongside Take 1 every week, with bonus reviews, more viewing recommendations from the Good Doctors and whole bonus episodes just for you. And if you’re already a Vanguardista, we salute you. Reviews this week of French feelgood hit ‘The Marching Band’ (En Fanfare)--where a conductor in need of a bone-marrow transplant discovers a long-lost brother and undertakes an unexpected musical journey. Think Brassed Off, but more French. Also we have the edge-of-your-car-seat thriller ‘Hallow Road’ starring Rosamund Pike, and the usual run down of the Box Office Top 10 and all your erudite/hilarious/chin-strokey correspondence on those. The Good Doctors will also be talking ‘The Last Of Us’ series 2—and that’s because our very special guest this week is its showrunner Craig Mazin. In a bumper conversation that extends into Take 2 for Vanguardistas, he and Simon talk about the groundbreaking video-game adaptation series and his journey to creating it. Covering everything from storytelling secrets to the show’s brilliant needle drops, via revenge, grief and creativity, this one really goes places—don't miss it. Timecodes (for Vanguardistas listening ad-free): En Fanfare (The Marching Band) Review: 08:15 Craig Mazin Interview: 26:03 The Last of Us S2 Review: 45:28 Hallow Road Review: 58:36 You can contact the show by emailing [e-mail] or you can find us on social media, @KermodeandMayo Please take our survey and help shape the future of our show: https://www.kermodeandmayo.com/survey EXCLUSIVE NordVPN Deal ➼ https://nordvpn.com/take Try it risk-free now with a 30-day money-back guarantee! A Sony Music Entertainment production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts and follow us @sonypodcasts To advertise on this show contact: [e-mail] And to find out more about Sony’s new show Origins with Cush Jumbo, click here Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Before we begin, a quick reminder that you can become a Vanguard Easter and get an extra episode every Thursday. Including bonus reviews, extra viewing suggestions, viewing recommendations at home and in cinemas. Plus your film and non-film questions answered as best we can in Questions Shmessions. You can get all that extra stuff via Apple Podcasts or head to ExtraTakes.com for non-fruit related devices. There's never been a better time to become a Vanguard Easter. Free offer now available wherever you get your podcasts. And if you're already a Vanguard Easter, we salute you. I played a record this week which I've never played on the radio ever, on any radio station

I've ever played. This is including Southlands Hospital Radio, Radio Brighton, Radio Nottingham. Was it the Dodge Brothers? No, I'm sure I've played the Dodge Brothers, but I'd never played Hines from 1964. Oh, Hines, who was produced by Joe Meek. That's right. So it was probably recorded not far from where I'm talking to you now on the Holloway Road. The Leather Goods store. The Leather Goods store on Holloway Road.

That's right. Anyway, because Hines is only substantial hit produced by Joe Meek on the Deco record label was Just Like Eddie. That's right. Anyway, because Heinz is only substantial hit produced by Joe Meek on the Deca record label was Just Like Eddie. That's right. Um, just like Eddie, I became a granddad again this week. So, and Eddie was born on Monday. So, uh, so I thought it'd be a good idea to play Just Like Eddie, uh, because even though it's, it's kind of a simplistic rock and roll tune, but it's

certainly a rather fantastic earworm. Yeah, I like it. I mean, those rock and roll has a habit of those, you know, tribute songs, like three steps to heaven, you know, getting, um, anyway, whatever. But just like Eddie is actually a bit of a banger. That's great. And, uh, and on guitar, Richie Blackmore, who went on to join Deep Purple. No, is that Richie Blackmore playing

guitar and Just Like Eddie? Yeah, how about that? I didn't know that. Well, congratulations. That's fantastic. Thank you. So all my own work. No, not really. I had believed that you're, that Anakin was the name that was being punted. Anakin was the womb name. That was how Eddie was referred to when he was internal and now he's external. So Anakin has been kind of bumped. Okay. But obviously that is quite good because calling your child Anakin is perhaps not the best preparation for the future.

No, that's right. Because that story didn't end well, did it? No, no, on balance. And Eddie is a good rock and roll name. So anyway, so, and I'm sure he'd be brought up to be a Vanguard Easter. The Wikipedia stuff, by the way, is in almost instantly. As soon as we've just said what's coming up on the show. So what is coming up on the show as far as you're concerned? Well, we have some fabulous reviews, Marching Man, Enfant Faire, which is a sort of French brassed off like film. We have the new film by Babak Anveri, who you'll remember made Under the Shadow, which I really, really

like. This is called Hello Road. And we will be looking at Last of Us Season 2 because you have done, and this isn't a plot spoiler, a spectacular interview with… Mason Well, Craig Mason, whose idea the whole thing was in the first place, the guy who was entirely responsible for Chernobyl, which is amazing. They went on to do The Last of Us, which we talked a lot about season one, and now season two is kind of, it's five-sevenths of the way through. But when we did the interviews, four-sevenths of the way through. So we will be talking about that. Basically, we spoke for such a long time, we split the interview, so it's on take one and take two, so another reason to become a Vanguard Easter. Bonus reviews

also in take two would be what? There's a documentary called A New Kind of Wilderness, which is very touching and heartfelt. And then there is an oddball independent feature called Magic Farm. Also, all the other extra stuff, which appears every Thursday. There's a back catalogue and so much to enjoy. Whilst we're on that subject, Ben Sutherland has sent this email, which is a very handy reminder, although it is addressed to the redactor and all his minions, which is us. Ben says, you may remember that you kindly read out an email from me back in January when I submitted an answers schmanzes section and mentioned how I've been a long-term contributor to Wittipedia. It wasn't possible at the time

to see it other than in an archived version, but to my surprise and delight, I've now found Wittipedia has been ported across into the iWitter app. Fantastic. So hurrah for that. Anyone who wants to know who Nicolat the French engineer was or how Wittertainment got its name, a circuitous route involving Leonardo DiCaprio's film Blood Diamond via Danny Baker, can now find out on their phone. Who wouldn't want that? I also wanted to congratulate you on exactly 20 years on the 20th of May since your first podcast, albeit in a different time and place.

You would think that maybe the production company involved would have serenaded us to the tune of some kind of massive reception in a swanky London hotel or something. But anyway, I've just enjoyed re-listening to the first podcast and Ben includes a link. Wow. And enjoyed that. And within the first five minutes of some of the wonderful tropes that last to this day, Simon Avoiding referring to Apple products, because I say apparently other MP3 players are available, but you've probably got a white one with a shiny bit

on the back. A listener contributing a hilarious and pithy review of their own and Mark ranting about Michael Bay. There's even Simon quoting, back to the start we are, wasted our time we did, which he did on the show just two weeks ago. I doubt you can play a clip from the first show unless it's for criticism and review purposes, although that would be quite inception-like, reviewing yourselves on a review show. But believe me, it's jolly good. Here's to another two decades from Ben Sutherland. We definitely can't play a clip from 20 years ago from the other place, I don't think. But it's good to know that it doesn't sound just utterly preposterous. What accent was I doing? It's that terrifying thing that you listen to recordings of yourself.

I mean, probably not for you because your radio voice probably settled into itself. 80s, 90s, but I listened to things of me. I mean, when I did all those documentaries in the 90s, I don't know what accent I'm doing at all. I have really no idea. And whatever change happened, it happened sort of imperceptibly. But I mean, if you listen to very early

recordings of John Peel, he does not sound like John Peel. He absolutely doesn't. Isn't that weird? He sounds completely different. So approaching our 20th anniversary of this as a podcast, or as we were told to say, download at the time, because they were beep that it would be advertising Apple products. But you know, podcast it is. So that's the way it stuck. And so next week is our 20th anniversary, which we will celebrate by me not being here. So thank you. I was going to say, should we go for a meal? Well yes. If you want to come to Copenhagen, that would be a very fine thing. Of course

I want to come to Copenhagen. You're inviting me. Let's go to the Juno bakery, do the show from there. That's it. There we go. All sorted. I love the Juno bakery. That is a very good idea. It's a very, honestly, a show from the Juno bakery. We say to them, look, you'll get all the publicity of being the podcast from there and all we want in return is free stuff. Pastries whenever we want and also shipped to the UK. Yeah, $400 million jet.

Hooray, free cakes. Much better. Exactly. Correspondents at kerbandamow.com, please feel free to chip in and contribute. But basically, Ben Sutherland, thank you very much for all of that. If you want access to all of the archive and all that nonsense from 20 years ago, the iWitter app is where you need to go. iWitter.com. It's nothing to do with us though, obviously, we make an absolute fortune out of it.

Huge amount. We don't really. A huge amount. Put that there. What else we do? Yeah, let's do a film. I think we should do a little review of some kind. Okay. The Marching Band, or as it was originally called called Enfant Faire, which is directed and co-written by actor, writer, director, Emmanuel Coquel, whose previous film as a director was En Triomphe, which I think we reviewed the big hit. So he was César nominated for that Philippe Liré film Welcome for co-writing that in

2009. And that was a very interesting film because it's depiction of the immigrant crisis. So this, Enfant Faire, played at Cannes last year. As we're recording this show, and as you're listening to it probably, Cannes is on now. So Benjamin Laverne, I hope I'm pronouncing that correctly, is Thibaut, I know I'm saying that correctly.

He is a sort of celebrated upper middle class conductor who is diagnosed early on in the drama with leukemia. He needs a bone marrow transplant. And he says, okay, I'm going to ask my sister. And he gets his sister and she says, I'm really nervous that it's not going to be a match. He says, it's okay. It's a one in four chance. Anyway, it turns out that it's not a one in four chance. It's a one in a quintibillion things, because when they do the DNA test, it turns out he is not biologically related to his sister. In fact, he is not of the family that he thought he was, all of which is explained in French in this clip from the trailer. Large!

I'll explain. 15 days ago, I learned that I had a lecebisc. Yes. My sister did a test to see if she could make me a gift of the moelle, and it turned out that she wasn't compatible. But I discovered that I had a brother. I'm sure you understood all of that. Yeah, yeah. Quelqu'un coupe M. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. So it turns out that Thibaut was adopted. He didn't know this at all. And in fact, he has a biological brother who he's never met. This is the brother is Jimmy played by Pierre Latton, who lives in altogether more humble circumstances and plays the trombone in the band of his local factory, which is in danger of being closed down. There's a strike going on. So there is immediately a kind of brassed off comparison because you remember in brassed off, it's

the colliery band and the band is trying to go on despite the fact that the pit is in danger of being closed down. So Jimmy isn't thrilled when this guy who he describes as Mr. Pochot turns up and says, look, you're my brother and I need a transplant from you. But he kind of agrees to help. And in return, the conductor brother feels that he should do something for his brother. And the rest of the story is about how these chalk and cheese, in inverted commas, brothers who never knew each other as brothers, now as grown men, grew up in different lives, but they both had a shared love of music. And it's about then how they then deal with their relationship.

So it's very amiable fair or amiable or fanfare. And incidentally- This is quality stuff. It is quality stuff. But also, in a way, that joke is sort of kind of on a par with the tone of the film. And there are some very nice scenes. There's one really, really good scene in which the two central characters, both of whom are very well played, sit on the edge of a canal and get drunk and have a discussion about how their lives would have been different if they'd had each other's lives or if they'd grown up together and if they had been brothers and if they'd known each other when they were younger. It's a really nicely done scene because those are one of those moments in

which characters explain stuff to each other and to you, but it's done with a gentlest of touch. The whole thing leads toward a musical finale, which had me very divided because I didn't buy it for one minute. But then I found myself crying and I thought, okay, fine, no matter whether the rational part of me is going, yeah, I don't buy this for a second. The non-rational emotional part of me was going with it. I buy this for a second. The non-rational, emotional part of me was going with it. And I think that what that demonstrates is that the drama was working on exactly the level

it was intended to be working. So I think it's, as I said, it's perfectly amiable. I don't know that it's hugely memorable. And I made the comparison to Brassoff and I will say straight away, we're not in the same league as Brassoff because Brassoff, and I think both you and I agree about this, Brassoff is one of those films that has stood the test of time. And as the years have rolled away, Brassoff looks more and more like a kind of modern masterpiece every year. I don't think that's the case with this, but I did enjoy it. I was touched by it. I was moved by it. It's nice, enjoyable, well played with a degree of depth that is brought to it by the performances and a few very, very nice scenes. But it's

not much more than that. Box office top 10 this week at number 14, the wedding banquet. Someone here called Potter Potty. No, Potter Potty 01. I mean, come on. I had seen a clip and I guess the name Bowen Yang and I was expecting a comedy. Boy, was I disappointed. Expecting something along the lines of Crazy Rich Asians meets the Birdcage because the whole fake wedding and grandma's coming, we must pretend we're straight type thing. What I got was a rather dull and predictable straight in a verticom as TV drama. Sort of the L word meets this is us. The worst part of it, it was so predictable. I could have described that final scene to you 30 minutes into the movie. It seemed painfully obvious someone was going to get drunk and stupid at some point. I'm not sure I bought either couple in the film

entirely. There was just no real emotion. I was on the brink of nodding off when some loud noises at the start of the wedding jolted me back to life. That's The Wedding Banquet at number 14. It's interesting that you made that comparison with The Birdcage because obviously when we were in the review I did cite the casual fall and saying that there are certain moments of that. I mean, it is a comedy in as much as it is a bittersweet. Last week, if you remember, there were three instances, I think, in which we invoked the word dramedy. Then I said, I hate that word. You said, well, stop using it then.

Yes. Which I think was perfectly fair. But this is actually a perfect example of why that word is invoked. Because if you go expecting a laugh out loud comedy, it's not that. It is a drama with comedic elements. Warfare is at number 10. I think it was at number 10 last week, actually. It's number 12 in America, but it's 10 here. I'm very pleased to say that Child 2,

who was the subject of much discussion after the Revenge of the Sith review, went to see Warfare and agreed with us, just absolutely in terms of grueling cinema, that that's what, I think the phrase he used was, yeah, that's what a war film should be like. And I think I agree with that. And number nine is Bluey at the cinema, Let's Play Chef collection, which I think we kind of dismissed last week as, you know, just a thing. It's Bluey, isn't it?

Yes, it's TV episode shown on a big screen. And the Penguin lessons, anyway, but let's not be dismissive. Yeah, no, I'm not, I'm not criticizing it. I'm not criticizing it, I'm saying, but that's what it is. Yeah, absolutely. People go to the cinema, get the habit. And that's Bluey at the cinema number nine. Number eight is The Penguin Lessons. Which has done well enough. I do think that Steve Coogan is the saving grace of it because I think without his sort of astringent element, it might be a little too sappy for its own good. But I enjoyed it and I saw it twice.

And the second time around, I saw it with a friend who's from Argentina who found it very touching. The Surfer is at number seven, number 15 in America. This is, do you have an email about The Surfer? Yes, I do. Do you want to do that first? And then I'll go again. Vivena, again on our YouTube channel, saw it blind and honestly, it might be the best film I've seen this year. It's got enough style, substance and originality mixed in such a way I'd forgive any flaws

it had. Truly an instant cult slash midnight type of movie. I mean, I think that's exactly right. This is Lorcan Finnegan who made Vivarium for which you had done a, we had done an interview with the two leads and I really, I really enjoyed Surfer. Um, and I said at the time that Nick Cage is in this sort of weird period of his career in which he seems to be sort of machine tooling cult movie hits. I mean, it's really weird because usually when people do that,

if you set out to make a cult movie, you don't make a cult movie. But The Surfer is one of those things that you could imagine showing up on a late night triple bill in three years time, and you'd still be kind of knocked out by it. I enjoyed it very much. I thought it was well made. I loved the color palette. I loved the kind of the whole trippy feel of the film and the fact that it was part psychodrama. You think it's going to be falling down and then it turns much more into a Hodorowski goes surfing movie. I really liked it. Nick Cage is just in, what a great place to be in that these are the kind of movies you're making at this point in his career. Okay, Surfer at number seven. What would you

put it on with? If it's a triple bill, what would it go well with? Well, if we're going to do a Nick Cage triple bill, I always think that you should do Leaving Las Vegas because he won the Oscar for it and his performance in that is absolutely amazing. Either Mandy or Long Legs and then this. I think that gives you the Nick, the Nick full experience. And Till Dawn is at number six. Yeah, so number six and number five are Until Dawn and The Accountant 2. This was the two weeks that we were away.

One wasn't pressed again, one I haven't. So I haven't seen either of those two. I do believe last week you said, I'm definitely going to go and see them. Yeah, you see the problem with that is Simon, that there was a lot of things to do this week. One of which was a large amount of viewing to be absolutely on the ball with your interview with Craig Mazin, which is the main pull on this. That's many hours of viewing. Number four, Ocean with David Attenborough,

new entry. This from John Hilton. A few years ago, our daughter, then aged seven, was diagnosed with Hodgkin's lymphoma. Thankfully, treatment was successful. She's now 11 and fully recovered. But off the back of this, she's had the great joy of being able to go on sailing trips arranged by the Ellen MacArthur Cancer Trust. A few weeks ago, we received an email from the trust explaining that they'd been awarded tickets for the educational premiere of Ocean with David Attenborough to be awarded on a first-come, first-served basis. On the day of the premiere, we sent her off with a few other children and a volunteer from the Trust on the train from Birmingham New Street down to that there London. Around lunchtime,

I had an excited phone call from my 78-year-old mum to tell me she'd seen our daughter on the BBC news at 1pm. My mum is the only person I know who would be watching the news at 1pm, says John. Sure enough, there she was, a blurry figure in the background of the report and the premiere. On picking her up, she excitedly shared everything she'd learnt from coral reefs to how little of the ocean is protected and the destructive effects of industrial fishing. That was just the five-minute walk to the car park. Fair to say she was enthused, passionate, and this film caught her attention. To round off a memorable day on the way home, she casually mentioned she'd been sat two rows behind the Prince of Wales for the screening.

Wow. Love the show, Steve. Hello to Jason. And down with GB News, who reported the Prince of Wales attendance at the educational premiere as him not attending the evening premiere with the King and instead watching a private screening. There you go. So that's what he was doing. He wasn't snubbing anyone. He was just watching it with all of the people who'd been invited by the Ellen MacArthur Cancer Trust. So there you go. The truth is out there. Gee, BBs.

Anyway, so that's Oce with David Attenborough cinematic release and it's at number four, which makes it a hit. It's great. My local cinema here was showing both the surfer and ocean and you made this comparison as well yourself. These are two very, very different views of the ocean, but both sort of majestic in their own way. What David Attenborough has done over the course of his career is to raise awareness of things that are not immediately palatable. The really impressive thing about Ocean with David Attenborough, Ocean, colon, David Attenborough,

whatever you're calling it, is that it doesn't ever sound hectoring or polemical, although it very clearly has a very, very specific message, which is, you know, that there are things that we need to do and we need to do them now. And if we do them now, it is a great opportunity and if we don't do them now, then it is a really major mistake. And hats off to him and all the filmmakers, because obviously there's a huge filmmaking team involved in doing this. You produce something which is spectacular to watch

because the photography is always amazing. The music, a little surgy for my liking, but hey, that's fine. And a film which sends the audience out desperate to talk about this stuff. I mean, I love that detail that that was all in the five minute walk to the car. There we go. By the way, The Prince of Wales was at two rows in front of me.

Yeah, which is that. So, bear in mind, so this is at number four and above it, three, by any reckoning, three big hits. So, a Minecraft movie, so it's only beaten by so minecraft three sinners is number two which is doing really well this is its fourth week and the film that that's that's not enough the number one spot is in its second week. Sinners is holding on really really well and sinners is an original property. is an original property. It's an original idea. I think I really like it as a film. I love the way it uses music to tell the story. But you know that when you consider Thunderbolts is obviously there's huge brand awareness and all the rest of it. Sinners is an original property and it is doing really well in its fourth week. It is at number two. Yeah, it's number two in America as well. And number one here and in Canada, Thunderbolts. Asterisk, the new Avengers.

Dear Sentry and US Soldier says, Callum, I haven't been able to stop thinking about the group hug at the end of Thunderbolts over the last few weeks. And despite the movie's lukewarm reception from critics and middling box office performance, I hope that in years to come Thunderbolts will be the turning point for how male rage is depicted in summer blockbusters. Something that's troubled me of late is how militaristic Marvel's output has become. See the character of Sam Wilson in the latest Captain America film, where characters' instincts to do good devolve into becoming state sanctioned murderers. This is displayed as a good thing. I believe director Jake Shrier chose his ensemble carefully

by selecting characters who begin the story as operatives of the state, yet feel this life has led them into isolation. Through their interactions with Bob instead of learning to be better murderers, which is the conclusion of most Marvel films, they learn to be heroes not through violence but empathy as displayed in the group hug. It may take years or decades for this film to be fully appreciated, but I feel in the future Thunderbolts will have a long life on Disney+, and I hope Mark will see this again before it leaves the top 10 taking a closer look at the adolescence-like themes. Love the show Steve, that's from Callum. Well, I mean, I'll be honest with you, I don't think it's likely that I will see it again,

because I just can't imagine immediately wanting to go back to it when there's a whole bunch of other stuff that's currently on in the cinemas. But I do think it's interesting that people are finding that sort of depth in it. And that goes to show once again that any kind of blanket dismissal of, and I know I said this because I know how I felt about it, that sort of I've got Marvel battle fatigue. I think many of us are familiar with that. battle fatigue. I think many of us are familiar with that. Yet these stories obviously do manage to find their way under people's skin and to tell more complex stories than they might appear to be telling initially. I think, well, fine. If that's what you're getting from the film, then that's great. Certainly, with any of these movies,

they end up being seen many, many times by the core audience. And then once they're on streaming, they'll be seen over and over again. And all that stuff can be picked up on. I'll be honest with you, I don't think that I am going to go back to it, at least not in the immediate future. I didn't dislike it, as you know,

I'm just lukewarm about it. And I don't think I'm ever going to be not just lukewarm about it. But maybe I'll catch it again in a few years' time and see further depth in it. I think there are things about it that are really interesting. I like Florence P very much. I just don't know that I cared about anyone in it. No, I know that I didn't care about anyone in it, in fact. We're going to be back in just a moment, unless you're a Vanguard Easter, in which case we're

just going to smooth straight into Craig Mazin. But what are you going to be reviewing next by the way? Well, we're going to be talking about the new Barback Anvery film, Hallow Road, which I like very much, but immediately next, as you say, Craig Mazin, and last of us, series two with some series one as well. This is an advert for Shopify. Mark, do you remember when we started this podcast? I do. Plunging into a world of subscribers, ads, merchandise, a lot to get done, a lot of different hats to wear. And hats to sell, of course. That's where the ad hook comes in. For millions of businesses

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about Indeed on this podcast. Hiring Indeed is all you need. So, if you've been listening to this show for a while, you will know that we talked quite a lot about The Last of Us when it was series one. And I think we were, well, what's the word? I think we loved it. We did. Right? Yeah, we had a lot of discussion. I mean, as did everybody, about the one particular sort of standalone episode being a remarkable example that if that had been released as

a movie that week, it would have been filmed with the week. But the thing that we said, which everybody said, it's not an original thought, was it was far, it was a complete game changer in terms of adaptations of video games. And I didn't know because I haven't played the game and I'll tell you now, I still haven't played the game because I'm not a gamer. I'm nothing against gaming. It's not something that I've done. I just thought as a piece of drama, it was remarkable. As a result of that, we've been trying to get hold of Craig Mazin to talk to him because

it was basically his idea as you're about to hear. It's taken quite a while to get sorted. It came very close at the beginning of season two. Anyway, you don't need to know all this. All the stars have finally aligned. A couple of days ago, I got to speak to Craig Mazin. We talked for basically because there wasn't a PR person over his shoulder saying, come on, come on, you need to speak to horse and hounds. We got much longer. Well done. That's very good. Thank you. So we've got 30 minutes. So what we've done is we've split the Craig interview between take one and take two. But anyway, for the moment, here we go with Craig Mazin

talking about The Last of Us, series two, and you'll hear my conversation after this clip. care if it's easier. It's not fair. And by the way, you know I'm the one we should be least worried about when it comes to infecting. Hey, no. You swore. We don't talk about that. I got bit on my arm. Ellie, we don't talk about that. I got bit, everybody! I got bit! Hey! Hey! I'm immune! Whoa, whoa, whoa! Hey! Whoa! Jesus. The Last of Us, series two is, as we speak four episodes in, I'm delighted to say that Craig Mazin has joined us. Where are you speaking from, Craig? Hello, great to be here, thank you. I am talking to you from Hollywood, California,

where dreams are made. Is that right? Are dreams still made there? I don't know. No, no. This is where dreams come to die, but we do our best. We do our best. Yeah, well, we might get onto that a bit later on. So as we speak, we're four episodes into series two, there are only three episodes to go, which feels wrong somehow. But what

feedback are you getting as we're sort of more than halfway through? Is it because it's a prime number? Is it an odd? Yes. Yes. Yes's a prime number. Nobody wants a prime number. It's six, eight, or ten. That's what it is. Yes, of course. I agree with you, by the way.

I think we would have loved for it to be six, eight, or ten. Six seems like not quite enough, but it was an interesting circumstance here. We had a different situation with our source material, season one or series one, as you call it. We were obviously adapting the first game. We felt like, okay, there's not enough here for two seasons of television. There's enough for one good long one or what we now call a long one. But for the second game, because it's so enormous, we knew we had to divide it up and we just kind of looked to see where the dotted line of narrative

seemed to be, where it would be correct to hit pause. And I've said a number of times, and we're starting to work on exactly how we're laying out our next season, but these seasons, television will not necessarily be the same length. No single season may be the same number as any other. So this one pulls in at seven, the next one could be nine. It's sort of just where it wanted to end. Mason Hickman We've talked about your shows on this podcast

a lot. And I've said a number of times that I think Chernobyl and Last of Us are two of the greatest TV series of my lifetime. So I'm just putting my cards on the table. Pete Slauson Oh boy. Mason Hickman But just so spooling back briefly, after Chernobyl, what were you looking for? Were you looking for something similar or something completely different? Was it meeting Neil Druckmann? Was it playing the game? How did you end up in this situation?

I was actually terrified after Chernobyl. I remember even before it ended, I remember thinking, well, I think this is a pretty good show and I don't know if anyone's going to watch it, but it seems to me like there's at least a chance to do something else after this. What will it be? I remember walking around, we were shooting in Vilnius, Lithuania, and I would just sort of walk the streets of Vilnius

thinking, well, obviously now I adapt moments from history. What moment from history should I? And it all felt very forced and scared, which is normal for me. And when the show came out, I really did not know what to do. And I asked Casey Bloys, who is the head of HBO, what do you want? Which seemed like a nice cowardly thing to do, just to ask what was demanded of me. And he said, we want whatever makes you levitate. What will get you excited every day to wake up and do something as opposed to feeling obligated or trying to recreate or anything like that? And I didn't know the answer to it. But around that time,

the rights for The Last of Us reverted back to Naughty Dog, which is Neil's company, which is owned by Sony PlayStation. I had played both of the, well, I hadn't played the second game yet, I hadn't been out, but I played the first game and I was obsessed with it and I played it when it came out. I had asked about it years earlier and it was just never seen like a possibility for so many reasons. Around that time, Neil also watched Chernobyl and it happened as fast as that. It was a very good lesson actually for me

to just be patient, wait. Sometimes if you just stand still, it will arrive. It's hard because I'm an impatient person, but I called Casey and I was like, okay, found it. I'm levitating, buy this for me. That's very good. Okay, what is it that levitates? Adaptation has happened for hundreds of years.

Books became plays, plays became operas, Marriage of Figaro being one of them, then TV and cinema came along. What are the challenges of adapting from a computer game? Well, I think the largest challenge is that the game is, depending on what it is, some element of narrative and a lot of element of problem solving. We tend to talk about this as game play, but game play, and I've been playing video games my whole life, really is about problem solving. Once you get past the shock or delight

or horror of any particular moment, then you die and you go back to some checkpoint. The challenge is how do I survive this? If we pare it down to its simplest thing, for instance, platformers, you are Mario. You have to get from A to B by jumping on platforms and avoiding things that are coming at you, and it becomes a game of problem solving,

whether it is through strategizing or through hand-eye coordination. And television is not a matter of problem solving at all. It is a matter of watching a very traditional narrative, presentational narrative. So I think for a long time, people made the mistake of A, choosing which video games to adapt based on how popular they were, as opposed to how narratively rich they might've been.

And then B, when they did it, attempting to reproduce what they thought people wanted, which was gameplay, but that is just problem solving. And one of the great things about talking with Neil very early on was, I just said, look, we're going to take some great moments of gameplay, but we are going to ask ourselves, what about this moment is dramatically interesting? How does it change this relationship? What new information do we learn? How are we tested? If we can't figure that out, we're not doing it. But that is, I think, one of the reasons why video games have defied adaptation for so long. But I also think people have gotten much smarter about it. And I think we're about to enter quite an interesting era of good adaptations where I think we're already seeing

quite a few now. One specific question about that. I think series two, Last of Us, feels more graphically violent than series one. Can you be more violent in a game than you can in a television show? Well, yes, although the impact of the violence again does degrade down to problem solving. You will, over the course of gameplay, kill hundreds of people. Yeah, of course. Just, if you're gonna kill hundreds of people,

your arms are gonna get tired. That's how hard it is to do, much less what it does to your soul. We try to keep our violence grounded and we try and keep it as impactful as we can. And we try and make it count. When you are playing a video game, because you need to be able to proceed through it,

you can be shot and then heal yourself. There is no such option in a traditional narrative sense. So I think the violence that we portray on the show is inevitably more graphic because, A, it's happening to real people in front of our eyes, which will always feel, I think, more impactful. And B, there's less of it. You think there's more, but there's less. There's so much less that when we focus on it,

it feels like there's more. Okay, very interesting. Can I ask you, before I lose track of that, and I wrote this down and said, definitely just want to mention it in passing almost, the opening five minutes of episode one in series one, where John Hanna is on a chat show, is some of the greatest storytelling I've seen in terms of setting a scene, there are no words on the screen. We don't get told if it's that setup was Absolutely inspired. I thought and I feel sorry for John Hanna that he was But what a great five minutes for John Hanna and oh my god, it's so many words for him to remember that Actually was not the initial theory of how we should start the series

We actually were thinking maybe what we would do is show a little nature documentary. There's some pretty dramatically beautiful ones that you can watch on YouTube about how cordyceps work in nature. But all the way early, early on, I was talking with Johan Renck, who was the director of Chernobyl. And initially he was going to be directing our first episode. And unfortunately, because of COVID and the way it screwed up everybody's schedule, he was going to be directing our first episode. And unfortunately, because of COVID and the way it screwed up everybody's schedule, he was not able to do it. But very early on, he was sort of asking, how real is the science here?

And I said, well, let me send you something. And I sent him a transcript of a Dick Cavett show from 1968 where they're interviewing two scientists about this. And I wrote this transcript out, but of course, it wasn't real. I just didn't tell him it wasn't real. And I wrote it as transcripty as I could. And I sent it to him and he was like, flat. He was like, I can't believe it. They've known about it this whole time. And I was like, gotcha. And I think I showed it to Neil early on. He was like, okay, yeah, it's interesting, but I don't know. And we just couldn't make the beginning work.

And we was towards the end of production of the first series. And I was like, Neil, I think we should take a shot at this. And we built that set and I went and directed that scene. And I'm to this day, I am surprised. I was so nervous that people were just going to go, what is this? What is this? No, it seems like television suicide to start that way, but boy, it worked. Yeah. And when John Hannah looks to the camera and says,

we lose, the shivers are down your spine, which brings us to, can I ask you about the casting of Bella Ramsey and Pedro Pascal? I don't know what stars aligned at that point. But did you know instantly that you had the right people? Do they audition? Or did you know when you saw Bella and know when you've seen all the work that Pedro has done that these are the people you wanted? For the case of Pedro, he seemed like the exact right person to do it. I believe that a lot of casting is about thinking to yourself, what direction do I need to be heading on this big ocean of creative endeavor? Okay, I have to be heading north, northwest whose wind will be blowing into my sales in that direction just by who

they are, just by the nature of who they are. Uh, and he seemed precisely like the kind of person that would be a great Joel. In the case of Ellie, it was trickier because Ellie in the game is portrayed by Ashley Johnson, who's a fully grown woman at the time, but she is a, I think she was in her late 20s or early 30s, playing a 14-year-old which married this kind of strange preternatural wisdom and maturity

into the body of a child. And we have to find an actual human being to do this. And we did, I think actual human being to do this. And we did, I think, see over a hundred auditions. And when I saw Bella's, well, first I saw her name and I saw her picture and went, oh my gosh, it's Lady Mormont. I love, everybody loves Lady Mormont. This will be fun. And I watched it and I was just like, there it is. And then I was just terrified that no one would agree with me. And I, you know And I sent a link to Neil and I was like, boy, I hope you like this as much as I did. And he did.

Then the only question was, because we had zero doubt that we had picked the right people. The only question then was how are they going to be together? And I found out that day, you know, that first scene the first thing we shot with them was in Joel's apartment. Ellie comes in and says, your watch is broken, and then starts asking him questions about how safe she's going to be out there. And we were a couple of takes in, and I just thought, we're good. This is going to be great. Yeah. The infected, I just want to ask you about them,

because they are terrifying. Obviously, they have to be, and they've taken over. I don't know if you've read Sapiens, the Yuval Noah Harari book, but he says the two things that make us human and made Homo Sapien's triumphant is, I think I'm paraphrasing this right, that we're better organized and that we can tell stories. Now, I don't know if the infected can tell stories, but the scary thing is they appear, now we're in halfway through series two, better organized than we are. Correct? No question. Well, they can't tell stories,

which makes them far less interesting than humans are, but that is in a sense a superpower as well. Part of the way we do organize ourselves socially is we begin to hopefully have some sort of empathy with each other through storytelling, which is why I love being a part of that tradition. And therefore, humans do interesting things like sacrifice sort of nobly or not. But the cordyceps are organized by biology.

So when I was in college, I took a class on animal behavior. And one of the things I learned, because I was always sort of interested in why ants or bees seem so selfless. I mean, the idea that a bee is perfectly happy to die to protect its friend, just if they sting someone, that's it, they're over. Well, as it turns out, bees and ants are far more related to each other than we are to each other. So a bee's brother contains way more of that bee's DNA than my sister contains of me, which means we're all kind of the same thing, which means it's no problem dying.

The genetic prerogative is not as strong individually for them. And cordyceps don't have that problem. They've lost that sense of individual prerogative. We still have it. And that leads us to do some incredibly beautiful things, some noble things, but it also leads us down horrible paths. There is a price to pay for the way we consider ourselves to be separate from each other.

What's next, Craig? Is it Series 2.2? Series 3 is being cooked up as we speak. And in addition to that, because of this great working relationship I have with HBO, we're starting to also develop other shows with some other brilliant people. And hopefully some of those will make it to the air. And that's a fun part of this,

is helping channel some other visions to the screen. But it'll be busy, it'll be busy, and it'll be last of us-y for a while, I would say. Well, long may it continue, as far as I can say. But work on that happy ending, you know, see if you can come up with that. I think in the end you will at least be not horribly sad. Okay, I'll be content. I'll be at peace. We'll find out. You will tell me. I have no doubt. Okay, Last of Us continues on Sky Atlantic. New episodes arrive on Monday. Craig Mazin, it's been a pleasure and a privilege. Thank you very much for your time today.

Thank you, sir. It was an honor. Craig Mazin talking to us from Hollywood. There's plenty more in that conversation, which we've had to, just because it was so, I didn't want to stop. So we put that into take two, including, I think the stuff about revenge, understanding revenge revenge and also the music choices that they've made in the show. The LP covers. Yes, the LPs that they ship through and also tariffs and whether he thinks, because the show is made in Canada, whether they're going to be tariffed. So his views on that are actually quite interesting and reassuring. But anyway, you'll have to listen to Take Two and Become a Vanguardista for that. But just listening through to that

interview again, it's like listening to a master craftsman, I think, explain what they're doing, why they're doing it and how they're doing it. I think the moment when he talks about the difference between problem solving and drama is really, yeah, okay, literally, just cut that and send that to everyone and go, this is this is this is what the issue has been in the past in terms of adapting a video game is that there's the game player problem solving element and then there's the moments that created. I think his understanding of the difference between the two mediums is absolutely brilliant. A couple of things to say, when this interview happened, there had been four episodes. Since then, there have been five. There are now two more to go. Now, initially, what I was doing was waiting for all seven to be there so that I could

binge the entire thing in one go. But obviously since the interview has now happened, I've now watched as I presume you have the five episodes now because there's just been a new one that's dropped. Because essentially that's now the habit that I've got into. And I hadn't read any reviews, I had deliberately stayed away from any kind of plot spoilery or anything. I understand that there are now five episodes out there which some people will be familiar with, but I also understand that there will be some people waiting for everything to drop and then watch everything as one. In discussing this, I'll try not to spoil anything. Is that fair enough, Simon?

Yeah. I mean, I think there are certain things. Yeah, there are certain things. And certainly in take two, there's a kind of a suggestion. My guess on this is that overwhelmingly the fans of the show are up to date. And also they will know, because there's a big moment in episode two, which has been much discussed and much commented on. So I think with that caveat, if you are certainly waiting for the whole thing to binge it through,

then you might want to wait before you hear all this conversation. But I'm sure this will be an edifying conversation. Yes. So as you say, I mean, amazingly only two episodes away from the end and having got to the end of episode five, thinking, you know, we're only two episodes away, but obviously it will be what he said. It was a natural break. It's not going to feel like the end of anything. I love the fact that he said whatever it was, the version of the happy ending was, you won't be soul crushingly depressed or something like that. Anyway, so I know everybody will know this already, but essentially this picks up some years after the end of the first series and the first series ended with that conversation in which she basically said,

tell me that the story that you've told me is not a lie. He says it's not a lie. The story that he told her was that there were others that were immune and they tried and failed. She says, okay, and everything that's played out is in the wake of that untruth. There is a very specific reference to that in the episodes that we've seen so far in which he talks about the guilt of having saved her and what that means. Obviously, in saving, he made a decision that was to do with her. You'll hear in the second half of that conversation if you're a subscriber, and if you're not, subscribe straight away because in the second half of that conversation if you're a subscriber and if you're not, subscribe straight away because Simon talks to Craig Mazin about whether the series is about revenge.

What Craig Mazin then discusses is the difference between revenge and fear and anger and all those other things that manifest them so that when you're faced with something that you absolutely can't accept, what happens is that that mutates into anger and it mutates into fear and that then manifests itself as revenge, and revenge is not necessarily what it appears to be on the surface. But so essentially when we meet them, they are now living in this, you know, in Jackson, Wyoming, this functioning community. There has been an estrangement of some degree between the two central characters, between Joel and Ellie because they've grown apart or maybe it's because they're living in the wake

of this lie. But it's the thing about, well, yeah, get used to it. You're acting... This is what happens in relationships is that the young woman doesn't want to talk to you, hey, grow up. And then we have in the first couple of episodes, Captain Deva as, is it Diva, as Abby, who is this Washington Liberation Front soldier who we are introduced to, who is seeking retribution for the death of her own father. And then the drama then unspools in the wake of those things. Now, I think the first thing to say is that watching the whole of the first series, it seemed to be very, very coherent

and very much of a piece, even though there were standalone episodes. In this second series, there are a lot of different things going on. There are a lot of different elements. On the one hand, you have the Joel-Elli dynamic, which is incredibly strong. As far as Bella Ramsey is concerned, they are absolutely magnificent in this role. I say again, I haven't played the game, so I don't really know much about the characterization in terms of the game in comparison to the

characterization in terms of the show. But as the Bela Ramsey casting, they are brilliant. And Pedro Pascal, the chemistry between the two of them is magnificent. So, that dynamic is very, very strong and that dynamic has been at the heart of the show. And consequently, some of the risks that they take are remarkable, bearing in mind that everyone knows that. The infected attacks are really hairy. There is one which, you know, I think I'm not the first person, many people have compared to, you know, the Helm's Deep thing in Lord of the Rings. But the fact of the matter is that there's the icebound sequence, there's the emergency effect, there

are several scenes in which you literally go, blimey Charlie, this is terrifying, this is really, really terrifying. There is one sequence that involves a fence, again I'm not going to spoil anything, but it involves a fence being pushed down that is one of the tensest things that I've seen recently. You know the scene to which I'm referring. And it's absolutely nail-biting stuff. And of course, there is now the added element this time that the infected have learned to strategize. And as a result of learning to strategize, they are more scary than they were before. I think that those things, that's great, and that will always keep everybody on board. This time, however, there is also another element, which is a kind of sort of post book smart, sassy teen romance element that's

going on, that does a number of different things. On the one hand, it gives us for a substantial number of episodes, a circumstance in which we have the two leads in this post apocalyptic drama being carried by two young, very different, feisty female characters who are incredibly self-sufficient and are discovering a relationship between themselves at the same time. However, there is an element of that which is that the sassiness of their dialogue can sometimes seem, I think, to be from a slightly different genre of film. And they're a moment, film, TV series, there are moments, I think, when those elements are in conflict with the nail-biting, knuckle-chewing, you know, immediate threat of what's going on.

And I'm not saying you shouldn't have them, but I'm saying there are moments, there are several moments in the five episodes I've watched in which the tone is quite hard to judge because there are three or four different things going on at the same time. Now, you could argue that that's a kind of realistic depiction of what life is like at any one time. Things can be funny and things can be horrifying at the same time. However, I do think that there are a couple of moments during these episodes in which I thought, okay, I want to move on from the SAS, I want to move on from that because it's kind of distracting me

from the greater Enveron. That said, the very fact that the thing that I'm picking on is that tells you the level of achievement, because I'm not going, well, it's an adaptation of a video game and they haven't understood that video games are basically to do with problem solving. It's another post-apocalyptic. I'm not doing any of that because all of that is so right that what I'm doing is I'm now judging it as I would judge a dramatic, if I used the word film, a film feature. And that, I think, is kind of the highest praise. There is a character who is a psychiatrist who doesn't quite ring

true to me and again I think is slightly out of step with the tone of some of the rest of the drama. But again, that is a discussion about a character being not quite ringing true amidst a whole bunch of other characters who really, really ring true in a world which is a fantastical computer game generated narrative of a post-apocalyptic infected zombie future. The whole thing works, the whole thing's gruelling, the whole thing's gripping, and the whole thing has got at the center of it a really intriguing premise, which is that there is this lie that is at the heart of a relationship that you completely believe in. And I do think that in the five episodes that I've watched, there have been several occasions which I have literally been, you know, come on, get out, do the thing,

do the thing. And there is a particular moment that you've already referred to, or the particular series of events that you've already referred to, in which you go, oh my God, I can't believe they did that. And I understand obviously that there are elements that are taken from the game. And I will say once again to gamers, I can't speak from the point of view of somebody who has played the game because I haven't. And I think it is really important to make that clear. I am responding to this as somebody whose entire knowledge of The Last of Us is from watching the TV series. Blimey, Charlie. Mason- So more on that in take two, as I mentioned, Tattoo's, More and Revenge, Taris, and the music choices that they make will be with you there. But now that we've been talking about death, revenge, the infected zombies, and the end of all things, the only thing that can make things better for everybody is the laughter

lift. So here we go. Play that music, which makes everybody feel better. I mean, yeah. Hey, Mark. Surprisingly, I've been thinking about a career change recently, and I looked into opening a zoo. And I learned that to do so, you must have one polar, two pandas, two grizzlies, five Asian black, three brown, and a koala.

It's referred to as the bare minimum. And so that's worth passing on, I think. I went for a trial at the party balloon factory. It didn't go very well. I refused to be spoken into in that tone. So I think that's a reference to helium. But you know, it's lacking in structure. I think so.

I always see. Sorry, I didn't get that. I didn't get that until you glossed it. But I also just one more thing. I had an awful experience walking back from work the other night. I was first hit by a violin. And this is slightly contrived. I was first hit by a violin, then a French horn, and then a viola.

The police said it must have been an orchestrated attack. I mean, it doesn't actually deserve a head, thank you for thank you for your I was trying to problem solve it in real time. What are you doing? Yeah. Okay. Next, the new Babak Amvery film Hallow Road after this. Here we go.

Your emails always welcome correspondence at code of mode.. Gabor in Chiswick in London. Simon and Mark, hello. Simon, your brilliant interview with Paul Fiegl last week, you mentioned asking chat GBT whether any of your books had been scraped to train it. I thought you'd like to know about a series of articles published by The Atlantic in 2023. And then he sends a link. The author discovered a data set of 191,000 pirated books, which were, the author says, used by Meta, the parent company of Facebook and Instagram, to train its own AI language called Llama.

The data set is searchable at the above link and yes, Simon's itch book does appear along with the movie doctors and also Mark's books, it's only a movie and hatchet job. So the answer is almost certainly yes, your creative work is being used to train AI. Do with that information what you will, up with human creativity and down with the impending AI singularity. Thank you, Gibball. Well, I mean, I'm not, I mean, I'm not surprised. I mean, I'm, you know, admit, admit it. You slightly flattered. Well, yes, actually, that's true. If Gabor had said, I've searched, didn't use any of your books. What? How dare you? That's outrageous. I demand that you scrape our

books. But anyway, I mean, to be honest, I don't know why I think about all of this anymore, because it's happened, it's done. And the books, if they had a movie training course, for example, books, if they had a movie training course, for example, and the two books that they based it on were Hatchet Job and It's Only a Movie, and they stood there and they read it out loud and people quoted it back and they wrote down bits, it's sort of publicly available stuff. So I'm not quite sure of the legal basis for saying no to that really. Well, I think we're so far beyond the concept of the legal basis for saying no to that really. I know. Well, I think we're so far beyond the concept of the legal basis for saying no in terms of all these. It's to quote Tom Hanks in Saving Mr. Banks, that train has left the station.

Yeah, no. Also to quote John Hanna, we lost. It's gone. It's been and gone. So, and how very dare they even consider, where are my other books? Why haven't you scraped? Anyway, two insecure writers discuss technology. Thank you, Gable. There is only one thing worse than being talked about and that is not being talked about. That's not part of that conversation. Okay, so something else to review. What else is out there worthy of consideration? Okay, so this is exciting. Hallow Road. Hallow Road is the new film by Babak Anvari, who is the British-Iranian filmmaker who made my favourite film of 2016, Under the Shadow,

which I reviewed when you and I were in a previous incarnation of this show. That was a film about a mother and daughter living under the terror of a supernatural wraith in 1980s Tehran. But although there was a supernatural element, the story was actually very down to earth. It was about women being more scared of going out of the house because of what was happening in the political landscape than staying in the house and dealing with the wraith. After that, he made wounds, which I don't think I saw, and I think he had a slightly rough ride on. And then I came by, which we reviewed, which was a twisty thriller with George McKay and Hugh Bonneville.

Now, Babak Ambry is back on top form with Hello Road. And I have to tell you that I didn't know anything at all going in. In fact, I don't think I'd even clocked that it was Babak Ambry's new film, because I try not to read a bunch of stuff before I see things. So this is from a script by William Gillies, I believe is the pronunciation. Here's the setup. Rosamund Pike and Matthew Reese are a married couple. We meet them at their home at night. She's asleep in bed, he's asleep at his desk.

The phone rings two o'clock in the morning. It's their daughter who, apparently, following some form of family row, has stormed off and taken the dad's cart with her. She was meant to be going, it seems, to the apartment that she shares with her boyfriend. That's not what's happened. She's wound up in woods. She is hysterical. She has been involved in some form of an accident. She's hit something, somebody, a girl who has run out from dark trees and she is now in the car in the middle of the night, two o'clock on the end of the phone in the state of, as I said, total panic. She's too terrified to go and look at what might have

happened. Her mum, Rosamund Pike, is a paramedic. Mum and dad immediately jump into the mom's car, say we're on the way, we're on the way, we're coming now. Sat Nav tells you 40 minutes away. The daughter is hysterical, but all you know about her situation is the voice on the phone and the mom trying to talk her through what she has to do in order to save the situation here as a clip from the trailer. Alice. Whoa, whoa, whoa. What? What happened? She hit someone with her car.

Mom, she's not moving. Mom. Dad. What do I do? What about the ambulance? They're not here. You have to listen to mum, all right? Okay, remember the chest compressions. Yes, you can't. She can't do this. She has to.

Don't let her die, Alice. So that's the setup. Now, that's very helpful of Rosamund Pike. Don't let him, don't let him die. As the situation worsens in the car, the parents start to argue with themselves, with each other, with the daughter. And during the course of the journey, old skeletons come out of the closet, buried grievances are aired, hidden secrets are revealed. But meanwhile, the reality of what has actually happened on the road is only conveyed through the broken signal of the voice on the phone, which keeps cutting out. Now, if you look at Babak Anveri's previous

films, you'll know that his work often has this thing about, you know, it has one foot in this world and another foot in a sort of, in something which is slightly more fantastical. Obviously, when they get into the car, there is a sense, and I've actually seen an interview in which he's talked about this, but it occurred to me while I was watching the film, that once they're in the car, they're in an interior and the whole psychodrama becomes much more of an interior psychodrama. What I didn't know was that the exterior sequences are filmed in 16 mil and the interior sequences in the car are filmed in 16 mil and the interior sequences in the car are filmed on digital, so they actually have a slightly different feel to

them. I knew something was up, but I didn't know that that was what it was. As with Under the Shadow, the fact that they're driving into these deep, dark woods, okay, so that has fairy tale written all over it. Any fairy tale elements are rooted in very, very real down to earth, real parental terrors. In a way, this is a story about parents' desire to save their kids, to change their children's fates, to somehow, as any parent will know, even if you're not a parent, you know this instinctively. That thing about feeling a conflict between your protective urge and also what's morally the right thing

to do. The daughter is saying, I can't go out and give her CPR. The mom's saying, you have to do it. This is what you have to do. And at one point, weirdly enough, I was reminded of it. There's a Michael Hanecker film called Benny's Video, which predates Funny Games. Benny's Video is a much better film than Funny Games. And that is a really cold clinical depiction of bourgeois parents protecting their child at all odds, at all costs. And it's a really bleak film, but it has no fantastic element whatsoever. This is much more a psycho drama with, as I said, that sort of fairy tale reality to it. They're in this bubble, that's it going into these woods, they're following this, you know, this blip on the sat nav,

that isn't quite accurate, they don't quite know where they're going. I mean, some people will compare this up that film, Lock, because that's a similarly claustrophobic car-bound setting. This, however, is very much its own beast. Credits to cinematographer Kit Fraser and editor Laura Jennings, who kind of do this sinewy crawl all around the location of the car. Rosamund Pike and Matthew Reese are terrific. Incidentally, stay for the end credits, because the end credits confirm something that you will understand on an instinctive level anyway, but stay for the end credits. Terrific, terrific music. I mean, it's Lombard from Peter Adams and this, the kind of the score. There was this thing at the end

about the score and its connection to Martin Gors behind the wheel, which is that I'm not, I don't know much about Depeche Mode, although incidentally Depeche Mode will come up again in take two in our discussion of Last of Us. I thought this was fantastic and I can't, so as I said when I was watching it, I actually found myself having to go keep telling yourself it's only movie, keep telling yourself it's only movie. And when I came out, I did something which I really don't do very often, which was I got on my phone and I found a contact

for Babak, I've interviewed Babak Anveri before, but I haven't seen him for ages. And I found a contact for him and I sent him a message to say, I just have to tell you, I was knocked out by this film. And it's great because for me, I loved Under the Shadow and this is, there we go, there you go, you've done it again and it's really well written, really well directed, really well played and it is absolutely edge of your seat gripping, but there's more to it than that. It is a psychodrama, an interior psychodrama that plays out largely within a car.

And that's the end of take one. This has been a Sony Music Entertainment production. This week's team, Jen, Eric, Josh and Heather. Producer was Jem, redactor was Simon Paul. And if you're not following the pod already, shame on you. And please do so wherever you get your podcasts. Mark, what is your film of the week? My film of the week is Hello Road. It's really terrific. Take Two has landed adjacent to this pod. Become a subscriber here. The rest of the Craig Mason interview, plus all the bonus reviews and all the extra stuff. Mark will be back next week. I have other duties to perform. Will you say you I'll be back next week? You've invited me to Copenhagen.

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right. Okay. Well, I'll see you in Copenhagen then. I'll see you there.