Kermode & Mayo’s Take - THE WIRE’S Bubbles: How do you help an addict? – SHRINK THE BOX

Episode Date: August 6, 2024

Ben and Nemone discuss The Wire’s ‘Bubbles’ aka Reginald Collins. An informant and heroin user, a man with a fragile support network who finds himself stranded while trying to forge closer bonds with those around him. Nemone tells Ben how unconditional love is the hardest thing to give an addict, and the key to helping them start their journey to sobriety. Plus we hear wisdom from Gabor Maté. Our episode on the Queen’s Gambit has great insights into addiction if you’re looking for even more on this subject.     We talked about AA, Al Anon and Samaritans in the show. Here are links:  AA: https://www.alcoholics-anonymous.org.uk/  Al Anon: https://al-anonuk.org.uk/  Samaritans: https://www.samaritans.org/  We want to hear about any theories we might have missed, what you’ve thought of the show so far and your character suggestions. Please drop the team an email (which may be part of the show): [e-mail]  NEXT CLIENTS ON THE COUCH. Find out how to view here   Moira Rose, Schitt's Creek (Season 1)  Raymond Holt, Brooklyn 99 (selected episodes)   Jackson Lamb, Slow Horses (Season 1)  Carrie Bradshaw, Sex and the City (selected episodes)    CREDITS  We used clips from Seasons 1 of The Wire. It’s available to watch on NOWTV.  Starring:  Dominic West - Jimmy McNulty  Idris Elba - Stringer Bell  Lawrence Gilliard Jr. - D’Angelo Barskdale  Wood Harris - Avon Barksdale  Deirdre Lovejoy - Rhonda Pearlman  Wendell Pierce - Detective Bunk  Lance Reddick - Cpt. Cedric Daniels  Andre Royo – Reginald Collins, aka Bubbles  Sonja Sohn - Kima Greggs  Created by:  David Simon  Directed by:  Clark Johnson  Peter Medak  Clement Virgo  Ed Bianchi  Gloria Muzo  Produced by:  Karen L. Thorson  Ed Burns  Joe Chappelle  George Pelecanos  Eric Overmyer  David Simon  Robert F. Colesberry  Nina Kostroff Noble  We would love to hear your theories: [e-mail]  A Sony Music Entertainment production.  Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts.  To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [e-mail].  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey Simon, I've been thinking about the great collaborations of cinema. Do go on. Well, John Ford and John Wayne, Francis McDormand and the Coen's, Hanks and Spielberg. NordVPN and Take listeners. Thank you, pardon? Oh, you know what I'm talking about. This is a subscription to NordVPN. It's essential if you want to access all your TV shows and films on streaming services from

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description box. Convinced Mark? It's like Eastwood and Leone all over again. So on with the show. Hi there, take listeners. Today, Ben and Nimone are looking at Bubbles from The Wire. Bubbles is fascinating, a sensitive, sympathetic addict who flits between the underworld and the police, sometimes playing informant, sometimes criminal. A lot to get into. Enjoy the show.

And please do send us your thoughts on the show and suggestions for characters for Ben and Nimone to cover. To shrink the box, it's SonyMusic.com. Someone is someone you need to know. I put the red hat on. Come in here, take the pictures. If they in the mix, take it another color. If they ain't ****, they don't get ****. Everybody in that hat's part of Bargstale's crew? Someone is someone you need to know I put the red hat on Give me here take the pictures if they in the mix taking another color damn it

They don't get everybody that hats part of bark sales crew at the terrace. We haven't hit the low rises yet That's sharp. I like that. It's no good with names, but you know faces. I keep in my head I used to take him down scape you and I let him look through the warm books He called me up that night telling me to go to this corner, that corner. Yeah pay 25 pounds a pop. Good money. Yeah. How much does the hat routine pay?

None. We're feeling this. Ben Bailey-Sm Smith here. And alongside it's Na'mo Metaxas. Welcome back to the place where we dig deeper into the psyches of our favorite TV characters to see what makes them tick. Maybe find out a little more about ourselves. You know, I was at a party the other night and a woman came up to me and said, are you Ben?

I said, yeah. She goes, are you Na'mo's friend? Your friend in Na'mo's? Oh. I said, yeah. How do you know Nemone? And she goes, oh, she's my client. And I was like, oh, whoa, whoa. I don't need to, I'm going to walk. I don't think that's, is that professional? Ethical. I can't. I'm going to go back to dance. It's really nice to me. Oh, I feel like, she goes, should we just calm down for a second? I'm her physio. Did you think he bumped into my therapist on the dance floor?

Why would it be your therapist? Why would they tell me? I'm such an idiot. Anyway, let's get into this. What were we hearing in that first? Well, that is Bubbles, Reginald Collins from The Wire. I think I've forgotten his actual name. I don't think I ever knew it. Reginald. Yeah, we do hear it periodically, don't we I ever knew it. It's not original. Yeah, we do. We do hear it periodically, don't we? And there he's giving Detective Greggs the names of gang members.

And they're on friendly, almost familial terms. You can see they get on. There's a kind of palpable warmth between them. Did you think they were going to be revealed as brother and sister at some point? Because I'm sure I thought that the first time around. You say familial, that's what I felt. They were like siblings. They're definitely sibling kind of vibes between them.

And she's a police officer. Bubbles, drug addict, about to become informant. And we'll talk about that, but he does that in revenge following his friend, Johnny being beaten up. He does it also possibly for money. But as we hear in that clip, he's saying this one's for free. He's an addict that normally informs all his relationships, but this time he feels compelled to start outing the drug dealers to the police. Keem is reluctant to pay him, which I think is really interesting, but it

is McNulty in the end, who we hear played by Dominic West, who pays him for his information. There's so many levels to The Wire, even in the smaller stories, isn't there? I mean, this is the first time you watched it, right? No, I was glued to it. I don't think it was as soon as it came out, but definitely, I've mainlined the whole series. Okay, I thought this might be one of those ones where, you know, children have got in the way and you hadn't. No, I saw this all the way, but it was weird watching it back, actually.

Did you love it straight away? No, it took me four episodes and I could not get with it initially. Do you know how much swearing there was in the first episode as well? A lot of swearing. You don't really know the characters. I have to say they speak really fast. Really quickly.

So I had to put- So Aaron Sorkin style, yeah. Put the subtitles on. I think the initial time I watched it, it's not just an old thing. And, but by episode four, the writing is so tight, the characterization, you love to know what's going on in each of their lives.

It's so intertwined. Mason Hickman It's Dickensian, isn't it? I was primed and excited about The Wire before it came out because back in 91, I was like a massive fan as a teenager of homicide life on the street. And a couple of years before The Wire came out, I read the book that that show was based on, which is David Simon's stories and memoirs from a year in Baltimore, doing ride-alongs with who was a journalist. And so The Wire being sold as this sort of extension of that world, I was already excited. I don't know, everything about it felt confident and iconic in terms of making television.

Like I said, the episodes are tight, the music's always spot on. There's a moment in episode six where the camera is just following, I think it is Stringer Bell and Avon Barksdale and Associates walking through the project and they've done it in slow-mo and it just fits the mood and it's brilliantly shot as well. Now, look what's happened though, even in this conversation, Bubbles has got lost a little bit. Yeah, God, that's really bad of us. No, I think it's really telling for what happens to the character at various times during the

story. He's there when required, when needed. He's kind of used and abused and he's smart enough to be aware that that's happening a lot of the time, but sometimes he needs to do these things purely for survival. And then he fades into the background and we lose him. So I mean, this has some fundamental themes in it. Addiction, attachment, abandonment, plenty of other things beginning with A.

As always. Excellent. Oh no, I've dropped, I've ruined it. We're keen to hear your thoughts on anything we're saying or any of the subjects we're covering and the theories, your theories too. Oh yeah, think we haven't got time for. Yeah, we can't cover it all in one episode. So you know where to go shrink the box at sonymusic.com. All right, coming up, we're going to hear about bubbles is addiction, why his friends are enablers and how he lives with being a snitch on the street. Welcome to shrink the box.

Welcome to Shrink the Books. Okay, here's our recap on this sort of multi-layered universe. Bubbles, played by Andre Royo, is a homeless drug user and a foil for the conflicts between the police and the criminals within this world of the wire. He's a colorful sort of r rascalish presence. He's open, he's sensitive, he's crafty as well and he's always cooking up these schemes to sustain himself and his friend Johnny, that's his closest friend who's also a user. In season one, Johnny, played by Leo Fitzpatrick, gets hospitalised after using fake money,

which is a scheme that Bubbles showed him to pay for these drugs from the Barksdale crew who are the dealers that run the Macala project Which is a big focal point in this series and this causes Bubbles to turn into Informant as he seeks vengeance for Johnny being put in hospital He identifies the key players for detective Kima Greggs, who's played by Sonia Sohn and helps the police get an understanding of the inner workings of the Barksdale crew. So there's a period where we feel quite positively things are looking up for bubbles. He's going to NA meetings. He gets clean in his sister's basement. He gets advice from former addicts.

But one of the tragedies of addiction is in this, it's one of those situations where it doesn't, it just doesn't hold. He can't hold it. It doesn't last. He can't get a hold of Greg's is so tragic. This moment she's in hospital after being shot to get money for his cooperation. And in his mind, she's ignoring him and he gets mistaken as an insult to injury. He gets mistaken for a suspect in the shooting, in the actual shooting,

and is beaten badly by these cops who don't know him. Ultimately, he relapses and it feels really hard to blame him in that moment. He loses this really fragile network that he's built. Tell us a bit about Reginald Collins, Reginald Bubbles Collins. Okay, so that's his real name. You've given us that. Male, late thirties, early forties, I've kind of pinned him as, which I think is probably about right. Maybe late thirties. It's difficult to tell, isn't it? If you've been living rough a lot of the time, if you've had struggles with heroin, it can change your appearance as well. And you can become quite hard to place age-wise.

And I think his childlike quality actually places him a bit younger down the scale anyway. So he could be anything from 30 to 50 to be fair. I also think he's been reluctant to be informant up until now. That was the impression that I got. So this is a really big deal for him finally being paid for information by the police. He's a father, got one child, Keyshawn. He is homeless, as you mentioned, and lives in Baltimore, Maryland, where the wire is set. There's such an open honesty and like you say, and lives in Baltimore, Maryland, where the wire is set.

There's such an open honesty and like you say, a childlike quality to him. It can't be like living this double life and having to lie to people's faces. It can't sit naturally or comfortably with someone like Bob. The initial focus at the start of the show seems to be, what can I get out of it? How does this situation benefit me and my addiction? So we could think of Bubbles being driven by his addiction only in that desire to give information. And obviously we know that's not the only reason that he's gone to

Kima this time and there's a survival need, but there are complex threads in his agreement with them. He's known to Kima already and has been for a long time, but she is surprised when he pages her to give her information. Whether she thinks he's still alive or not. Do you think there's also a thing in him that there's like a little element of justice as well? So maybe he looks at some of the people on the streets, some of these criminals as genuinely

being horrible people. Other people who are like, he might look on his, he's a criminal, but he's got a conscience. Then there's other people that he might think, you know what, actually, this guy deserves to be in prison. I think he's a bit of that or not. I think undoubtedly when he's watching the scene, he can, whether he's actually seen Johnny being beaten up, or he knows exactly what's happened. But it takes a pretty extreme event to tip bubbles into informing.

And that is this attack on basically his protege and rookie drug taker, I think we can say Johnny. Who also seems kind of sweet, relatively. Well, and a bit naive on the streets. Kind of harmless. Bubbles is taking him under his wing for certain. And, and I felt in that moment, because Bubbles was behind this ruse to photocopy money so that they could give this money to the drug dealers and basically get their drugs for a little bit less. I felt

he could be feeling guilty and in part had been the cause of Johnny getting caught, even though we know he wasn't. It was Johnny's inability to kind of front up and carry out this ruse. But I think you're right. He's also seen that some of the youngins might not be that kind, the drug dealers, and actually perhaps there is a bit of payback involved in that and power for Bubbles in being able to exact revenge for that attack on Johnny. I mean, they beat up Johnny and it's that that seems to push Bubbles to the police and informing on them. Maybe. Word in the towers said it was Omar on this crew. Omar? Who's he?

You mean no Omar? Omar the Terror. Been ripping and robbing out here for years now. See Fizz? See that **** don't play. Got a last name? Just Omar. You don't need no last name.

Who's this family? Remember No Heart Anthony? No Heart Anthony? Miss Kimber, do not tell me you don't remember no hard Anthony. Damn girl, what time you been policing that all these years? Right now I am personally ashamed to be your snitch. Oh man, sometimes it feels like Bubbles is getting something out of the attention that this this role gives him. Like we heard at the very top of the show, the hats thing, he's kind of there's a pride in there.

There's some element of status attached to this more than just, he's not just another drug-taking bum out of the 20 that you might find under a bridge. He's got, there's more about him. Like you say, he's an artful Dodger kind of character. Well, it gives him a connection and it makes him feel needed. I think that's key and useful.

Important, yeah. And gives that's key and useful. Important. Yeah. And gives him a sense of power. And I also feel this idea of him, there is an element of playing up for the police and kind of performing a little bit, feels quite childlike in a way that he's been given attention and then he's sort of playing up to that. And that's, I think that gives us an insight to one of the self-states that's quite big for Bubbles in that he, he is childlike, he's dressing up the baddies,

he's performing for attention. The other payoff of that of course is that he gets validation or appreciation from them and therefore it makes them like him. That's the police, but also the drug dealers. So just for me and anybody else, what are child states again? And I can not show. Okay, I'll do my best. So we have lots of different self states within us. You know how we developmentally obviously we're childs, then we're pre adolescent, then

tween, then we're adolescent, then and quite often we think of that process as being linear. And so we leave that child self state behind and we become as being linear and so we leave that child self-state behind and we become the pre-teen and then we leave that behind and become the adolescent. We don't necessarily and those self-states can be part of us and we can return to them. So the process is not linear and sometimes we can be in our child self-state or that's the one that's running the show and we are more childlike. So many people who get lost in addiction, the isolation that keeps them there, you're not getting any of those things. You don't feel important, you don't feel loved, you

don't feel validated. So you try and fill that hole with whatever your addiction might be. Well, we come onto the comfort that actually taking drugs might offer. It's not the case for all of those with an addiction that performance or kind of attention is necessary. For Bubbles, it does give us an idea of some of his primary needs. So the need to belong, to feel wanted, to feel needed, to be liked. It's echoed in his picking of proteges throughout the series.

Johnny, obviously, when we first see him, Sherrod, I think in later series, he's got another kind of protege that he pushes the bodyguard around. I felt like he'd spoken quite a paternal way to Johnny or maybe big brotherish, like you said, again, with the kind of sibling connection, because that would be less power driven. And you were right to point out that there's that sort of sibling horizontal connection with Kima as well. And we also sense much like our kids or those of us that know children, bubbles can be deeply affected by other people's opinion of him and his behaviour, their behaviour towards him. And we see a lovely moment where he helps one of the police get into an undercover role. I want you listening here in case you are thinking of going undercover.

Okay. So this policeman is going to play an addict. And so Bubbles is kind of giving him advice in a very serious way. Like he wants him to do the job properly, really cares about this. And you feel like he cares about his safety, but also that he cares that the look is right and that he's not going to get details. important. Yeah. But he's also going to get found out. Details important, right? Yeah. But he's also entertaining at that point.

He's uplifting everyone around him, pointing out the glaring fact that people in the projects are going to sniff this cop out a mile away as not one of them. Hugh, stains, wedding rings, and the soles of his shoes. Clothes is torn down enough. You can use a little bit more stains. What's this here, man? It's my wedding ring. Shit, you married to the needle, boy.

That shit been pawned off of you for real. You can stand and lose about 20 pounds. Some yellow, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know,? It's my wedding ring. Shit, you married to the needle, boy. That shit been pawned off of you for real. You can stand loose about 20 pounds. Some yellow on your teeth. You got bleeds on your hands. You don't go down in them towers, man. They gonna check everything. Yo, how about the shoes?

You walking down them alleys of the projects, man, you stepping on a dead soldier's. Dead soldier's? Your empty vials. You want to know if I feed for real? Check the bottom of his shoes Have him dance on some empties before we go out there Get us killed

It hurt your feelings? Well bet Those details are key right? It's just like what we were saying on the Orange is the New Black Piper's teeth are too white after two years in prison They're just too perfect You know from watching that there are little tweaks like that that need and bubbles is paying total attention to that

100% do you think this is the first time that Anyone sort of outside of his world has really valued his contribution his opinion his smarts He's wanted isn't he his advice his, his experience. He feels like he has something that they don't have. He's like a special agent here. Yeah, exactly. He does say at one point, they're going to give me a badge if I keep working like this. He's been given responsibility and a role. He feels needed. He's a vital part of the plan to capture the drug dealers higher up the food chain. He does have this

intense loyalty to Kima and I feel like she's shown him affection over a long period of time. So I felt that his role in this or the performance he might have been given was a chance to make her proud in some way as well. You know, like the bigger sister or even mom, mother figure. The game of the hat trying on that we heard in the first clip feels like it's a way to befriend the drug dealers and have some kind of relationship as well. So it's not only a performance or a way of feeling needed, but communicating and making a connection. Like this is his language. It's that childlike way of communicating

through playing or a game. You know, when you see a bunch of kids, you can see that a child doesn't know how to talk to them, but you go and kick a ball around with them and get to know them better like that. It's similar to his hat trying on game. He's going to get in there and feels like he can make a connection with people. And his performance and need to communicate, that extends all the way to the people in the projects and how they see him. He's being really helpful. And McNulty tells him that. McNulty calls his plan smart. You can see Bubbles beam when he realizes, I came up with something that they really like. I felt like it fed his self-worth at that point.

That definitely felt like the kid who's had a difficult year, he's in his third, fourth year at secondary school, he's had a difficult few years perhaps, and he has a little breakthrough in year 10 or something, and the teacher just thinks, you know what, this is a good moment. At the end of the day, he says, I just want to say to Aaron is actually performed incredibly. This piece of work is that, do you know what I mean? Like just that well-timed problem child. I thought we, you know, it's worth mentioning, we could be thoughtful in the therapy room about what's happening for bubbles in these moments. How much of a role is he aware that he's playing? How much awareness does he have of where he is,

what he's doing and how he's making these connections and the risk of course. Does it simply feel like an extension of his drug taking self and how much awareness does he have of this route into making money? You know, obviously essentially he is getting paid for this. Although I think that's a gray area because he initially stated, I don't want anything for this. There are some intricate strands to disentangle with bubbles for his motives, the extent to which his addiction or desire for affection runs the show for him. And it isn't entirely clear in this first series because to me, he seems to be constantly reaching to be clean and to seek out a straighter path.

That journey is something that we all want him to make so much. You're rooting for him. Yeah, absolutely. But you never feel confident. You never feel 100% confident, because you know how bleak that and how harsh that world is that he's in. And that you've got the cops on one side and the criminals on the other side. But both of those groups know that there'll be another bubbles somewhere down the line.

Life and death happens where they're from. It happens regularly. side, but both of those groups know that there'll be another Bubbles somewhere down the line. Life and death happens where they're from. It happens regularly. Well, and the cyclical nature of what they're going through. They've had a Bubbles before and they'll feel like there'll be another one. We see that right at the end of the denouement of series one. I'm sure we'll get to that. Yeah, absolutely. All right, well coming up, we're going to be looking at addiction, of course, in some detail and look at how Bubbles' friends are more like foes really and how to break cycles of destructive behaviour. If that sounds like something that you'd like to hear more about we're going to get our teeth into it right after these ads. Unless you're a subscriber

to the take then you don't even have to wait and we can get straight into it, right? Because you're one of us, you're a shrinkerer that's what they are shrinkers now we'll see you right after the classic bit of bubbles here when he said no offense son that's some weak-ass thinking you equivocating like a mother What you're hearing right now is a paid ad from our friends at BetterHelp Therapy. Now do you spend a lot of time on social media scrolling endlessly and comparing your life to others? I've been guilty of that in the past. You see people getting married, first houses, new jobs or they're on amazing holidays and

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to us at Shrink the Box. Yeah, and alternative theories as well. If you hear something and you're like, I don't agree with Ben, my own, my own Ben. Absolutely. It would be weird if everybody agreed with me. That'd be really odd. I mean, I can take it. You would love it. No, I would. I'd be brilliant. I'd be like, God, shrink the box at sonymusic.com.

Not just for your love of them. All right. Let's start with a big question, Nimone. We've talked about this so many times in different ways, different situations, what we need in terms of security to feel safe. What's this addiction giving our friend Reggie? There are many ways to look at what addicts get from their addictions too. So to your point recently, please share any experiences or thoughts you have on addiction and different ways of looking at it. I've actually been looking back at the work, wonderful work of

Dr. Gabor Mate, I mean mean his doctor, physician, but whose Instagram introduces him as renowned speaker, New York Times bestselling author, expert on trauma, addiction, stress and childhood. He's written more recently about ADHD in a brilliant book called Scattered Minds, which I love as well. But I looked at the notes at the start of his book, The Realm of Hungry Ghosts, which is all about addiction. And he quotes Alice Miller who says, what is addiction really? It's a sign, a signal, a symptom of distress. It is a language that tells us about a plight that must be understood. And Alice Miller's writing in her book, Breaking Down the Wall of Silence, Liberating Experiences of Facing Painful Truth, her book on child abuse. Matei talks about actually not asking drug addicts what they're addicted to or for how

long they've been taking, but he's more interested in what did it offer you. And quite often the responses will be along the lines of, help me escape emotional pain, help me deal with stress, gave me peace of mind, sense of connection with others, which we've been talking about, and a sense of control. So he identifies addiction as an indicator of the addict trying to solve the kind of universal issue of human pain. And that's either caused by the loss of connection, the emotional pain or trauma, loss of control,

intense overwhelm or deep discomfort. If you've not come across Gabel Maté and you're listening, he writes so evocatively and simply. I mean, I'm sold. Bearing in mind what he said, we would be exploring less about the addiction, i.e. what are you taking, how long for, when are you doing it and all that kind of stuff, but we might be peeling back the layers on the pain in the therapy room with bubbles. This is a long term piece of work if it's going to happen at all. If we can get bubbles to commit

to therapy and we'll do more on working with addicts in a bit. But to answer your question, for Bubbles, his addiction seems to give him two things. He definitely finds connection through drug taking. Be that to Johnny, to the police, to the drug dealers. He's going and meeting with people and talking. Yeah, he's not like a sad sack who's just in the flop house like the whole time in a corner. He's gregarious. He's sociable.

That's part of the survival, but he's also he's good at it. He also sort of finds purpose through that. So he's working with and for the police, Kima, but also Johnny, you know, that is a responsibility that he's taken on, which I think he wears quite heavily, hence him becoming an informant in the first place. They also have one another's backs. So there's something about companionship in what he's getting out of his addiction and it's giving him some kind of structure to his day, his time, his very being. I mean, he's got a purpose and a raison d'être through addiction. The big but of course, is that all of these worlds that he's in, dealers, the addicts, criminals,

all these different people that he's so brilliantly gregarious with. The reason he's linked to all of them is the very thing he's addicted to, drugs. He's screwed, right? I mean, you can't, if you're an addict, the first thing's got to be to remove yourself from the world where this thing is everywhere. Well, we will come on to removing yourself from being surrounded by the thing that's actually in some ways keeping you going and giving you some of the things that you want. I hear you. Such a messed up situation.

And that's the vicious cycle. Horrible. I mean, it reminds me a bit of when him and Johnny and this anonymous friend are getting high, right? Johnny had a plan. Get out the way motherf*****s. This here white boy day. So in amongst all of this of course there's the dopamine hit. The reward chased by all addicts. Be that addict to heroin, be that addict to shopping, be that addict to sex, be that... Gabor shopping, be that addicts to sex, be that...

Gabor Mate writes about the addiction to shopping for classical music, which led him to lie to his wife and children and sabotage his responsibility to patients. That's real passion. That's a proper fan. But hold on a sec. Like if you were clean, you could get a dopamine hit from being gregarious and talking to strangers, couldn't you? Like making someone stay being useful to someone, not in exchange for money, but because it's the right thing to do. These are all things that Bubbles does. There's something that might have happened to Bubbles through more social environmental factors early on in life that might have affected the way that his brain

has developed. So you can give two people, you can put two people in the same situation and the outcome won't be the same. You can actually, and Gabil Mate talks about this, the drugs are not immediately addictive to everyone, even heroin. You can have a heroin use that doesn't wind up the way that bubbles ends up using. How hard is it? Like you've worked with addicts?

I've come across addiction in different guises. Right, right. And do you see patterns between them all? There are inherent patterns in behaviour and also in causes and experiences that might have led to addiction in whatever shape. So when you're using that Gabor approach of the sort of almost like the, how, how, how did we get here and what are you getting from it? You see a lot of similar strands. Well, I think that's why we need to start here and then come onto those likenesses in

addiction because it's actually really difficult to work with people when they're still using. When they're still using. So there's a real dilemma of working or not with addicts until they're in recovery. So I think your first bubbles came in and he was still using, it would be work around trying to get him to recovery or talking about what it might be like to stop using because you couldn't necessarily do meaningful, deeper work in the direction of... Got you, got you. So you can't take that Gabber approach straight away if somebody's still in active addiction. Well, you can imagine it's really hard to be grounded with somebody or to... they're just not in the room with you.

The double-edged sword is really difficult for addicts without some kind of psychological help or support to reach the path of recovery. And of course there's a high chance of relapse. So it is long and challenging and work that needs, you know, you need to work in a particular way. I suppose NA could bring something, the sense of community that an anonymous room might bring is you know that thing that Bubbles has of like, we were saying the beaming up at teacher for

saying he's done a good job. If you build a community within NA, you could have people that you don't want to let down, therefore you'll stay clean today, because you don't want to let down the guy that shows some interest in you, you got him really well, do you know what I mean? That's part of a premise and that will work for some people. But yes, so hard, so hard. Especially for someone like Bubbs who's like the stuff that he's dealing with, the risks and life and death and stuff. You mentioned it earlier actually, this huge cultural contempt across the board for substance abusers.

Especially heroin. Well, I mean, I think a lot of class a drugs, but heroin, particularly smack crack, the ones that you've mentioned that are street kind of drugs, certainly, because it comes with a whole slew of judgment. So that would need work on inherent bias in the room. And that includes mine, the therapist that might be working, you know, and that's unconscious bias, contemptive addiction or addicts, any experience you might have had with any kind of addiction previously in the family or other social networks and how that might affect or play out in the work. That would certainly be upfront. You talk about AA, Gabor Mate writes about the failure of AA in some instances, and he has quoted Michael Pond, whose own book is called Wasted, an alcoholic therapist's fight for recovery in a flawed system. And Michael Pond writes, contempt towards substance users permeates our culture. And he credits that contempt with that that

he encountered in AA and why it didn't work for him. He's not a therapist of alcoholics. He was a therapist who was an alcoholic. Yeah. Really interesting. He was an alcoholic therapist. AA didn't work for him despite meeting a really supportive and kind cohort because of an inherent kind of contempt of substance abuse. And Matei asserts that AA was never really meant as a treatment, but a way of life for

people seeking liberation from dependence. So as you rightly point out, that might be the first step for some people to feel, you know, even in terms of structure to their day, it happens at this time, there will be people who are going to accept you. You're going to get quite often there's, there's food there, or there might be a glass of water, a cup of tea, biscuit and a friendly face. And that might be enough, like you say, to stop using for 24 hours. But like you say, and rightly said earlier on in the show, these life experiences can have been exactly the same experience on the surface, but have a complete opposite effect on two different people. Bubbles is, he's always trying in some way to get

back on the straight and narrow, right? We established he's like, he has this goal. I feel like that's there the entire time. Every time he gets high, it's tinged with guilt and you know, it's like a sort of, it's a regressive step for him. This is not explicitly said. This is something that we feel from Royale's performance, from the way he interacts with people. And when he gets his job selling fruit and Johnny says, what's the scam? What's the angle? And Bub says there's no angle. He says, if you ain't got jeans, what the f*** you got? And Johnny can't see the point in this. It's like slow money. You're not getting high while you're doing it. You're having to work for that money.

Do you know what I mean? Like by the time you make enough money, like that means you're not going to get high hired until next week. That's insane. It does betray an interesting fact about Bubbles, which is that there's a part of him that knows he can do better. Feels like there's a way out for him, doesn't it? I mean, Johnny's role is really fascinating in this, and he sort of shows how everything can be turned back to dependency.

I mean, you can see that even when they're in the clinic, where Johnny's recovering from this, having been beaten up by the drug dealers. He does say he's been diagnosed with HIV and we can see the two friends connect most though when they're talking about the best package, heroin. I put the police on their ass. Police? Yeah. What did you get locked up or something?

Oh come on, no I'm not working for them. I'm working with them. They don't give me the bad suit enough I keep doing like I do. No, I'm not working for him. I'm working with him. If he don't give me the bad suit enough, I keep doing like I do. Why? How you gonna ask me why? Why you passing shit through a bag?

Why they beat you down? Why I couldn't do nothing about it? It's all part of the game, right? I mean, you taught me that. What you up to in here, man? NA? Yeah. Twice a day.

Bubs, who's got the best package now? I'm coming home right? Even after all, as Finlay Kway said, this guy's lying in a hospital bed. That's the stuff that they've been through, separately and together, and still like, the most important part of that conversation, at least to Johnny is, who's got the best package. Yeah, it's their shared language and common ground. But I think you can also hear in that clip, Johnny says, you taught me it was a game. You can sense how their child states have bonded over this.

And that's who's running the show for their friendship, really. And Bubbles seems to have more access to, if not an adult state and one that's gonna kind of care for him, then perhaps a slightly older self state, like an adolescent or an older teen. Yeah. I think the whole idea of family for Bubbles, that's a really interesting one.

You know, one of the deepest fears that we all have as human beings is being alone. I think it's just linked to all sorts of things, isn't it? Birth and death, the idea that you sort of arrive alone, you die alone and all this stuff. All these deep dark fears we have, families and networks and friends, these tangible connections are so important to us to not be afraid or at least go into these, these scary parts of being alive with our eyes open and Bubs does not have that network. So let's dig in into that a little bit more after the break

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Listen now wherever you get your podcasts. Alright, welcome back. A little reminder, send your thoughts on any of this to us. Shrinkthebox at sonymusic.com. Alright, we were getting onto something interesting there. Bubbles' family and friends, his support network, losing those connections. Can open up anyone to forms of addiction if you start to feel really isolated, really alone. Are they partly responsible, the actual individuals that have moved away from him? Could you describe them as enablers

or is that just way too harsh? Is it just the- In typical me fashion, I will come round to answering the network around somebody and whether what we think about enabling. But let's start with a clip because Bubbles does open up to ex-addict Wailon about the state of his personal relationships. That's when we first hear more about his backstory. She got going for you. And then nothing left. Moved her away. Mother dead, father who the ****, you know? That sister. So that's what they say in the basement.

Well she locked the door so I can't go upstairs. Thought the best she could do for me. Got a kid, a son, had me bring a lad into the world. What's his name? Keyshawn. Mother took him up Jersey Way, said I wasn't fit to be with the boy.

I ain't disagree. You wanna kick this ****? You gotta forgive your own self. Love ain't disagree. You want to kick this? You got to forgive your own self. Love yourself son brother. And then drag your sorry ass to some meetings. It's crucial. I mean that would love and being able to do that for yourself. I think crucial and crucial to understanding what you're talking about. But just before Ben, the lost connections and we could think of these as lost relationships or where he has struggled to be in relationship. It doesn't sound like it was an easy relationship with his father at all.

It doesn't sound like he has much of a relationship whatsoever. I mean, the throwaway manner in which he says his father, who the F knows, it's as dismissive as it is cutting. If I was that deadbeat dad, I think I'd much prefer to hear my estranged son moaning about me for ages. Cause then I think, well, you know, I had some impact on him. It's clearly got an opinion in me. He doesn't even want to give him that, which makes me feel like the dude never even tried to be his dad.

So we can be really thoughtful about that because of course Bubbles is a father. So what modeling has he had in being a father or parent? He's a partner, he's a son, he's a brother. The only family member we actually meet is his sister actually, and it's not Kima to spoil that train of thought. And his sister allows him to stay with her under very strict instructions not to come up the stairs, not to spend time or even look at the children. So then you feel, what do you feel like? What does that remind you of? What nursery story

that's like a Grimms tale, isn't it? The troll under the bridge, you know? And if you're not a fan of yourself anyway, in general, little things or like that's quite a profound thing, but anything can make you feel like,, of course because and it feeds the disconnection That's why I am this is where I should be it feeds this the narrative that might be I am absolutely where I deserve to be Absolutely, and my disconnection is real because I am downstairs not up with the family Yeah, and you feel like it's not the first time something like this has happened, like being treated like a stranger. Oh, I think we can see from the sister's reaction that she's really weighing up whether to, in fact, I think initially she's not going to let him back in the house. So he's obviously

let her down in several ways. I think he's come before whether that was to get clean, whether that was to get money, to feed the addiction. And he doesn't have many people to go to for support or people he can rely on. In fact, largely in the series one, certainly the only people we see him go to for help and that he can rely on are the police in the shape of Kimo and McNulty and their relationships complex and transactional. It's not unconditional, which comes with a whole set of other issues. Bringing McNulty into that as well. They are like weird sort of pseudo parents and I don't think there's any coincidence that with Kima there's this immense warmth, someone who could

be a maternal figure perhaps. And with McNulty, it is transactional. It's like, here's your money, now leave me the cologne, you know? It was tragic watching from episode nine onwards. So Kima's trying to support him to get clean. She then disappears, as you rightly pointed out, she is shot and Bubbles doesn't know it. So she's effectively disappeared. Then McNulty unknowingly asks him to go back into the projects whilst he's trying to get clean. I find it's profound. That does give us a clue to the backstory for bubbles. It doesn't sound like dad was particularly present and therefore we could be reflective about potential attachment issues, fear of abandonment, all relating to his addiction

as well. We've spoken before about how important early relationships can be for overall emotional health and wellbeing. It's not only for survival, but for healthy brain development as well. Time and time again, we see how crucial our early attachment to primary caregiving can be. So that's mirroring validation, meeting needs where we perceive them. And of course, you'll know this as being a parent anyway,

we cannot meet children's needs all the time. Part of our job as a parent is recognizing the need to fail as well. Which is a hard thing to do, I think, because, you know, your kids won't understand this until they're us, but like, you're still, you know, we talked about child states, you're still that same person who was looking for the same things, whatever it was 30 years ago when you were little. And then you've just got to suddenly, without a manual, just give all the things that you feel like were maybe missing for you to your kids.

And often those child states in you are triggered by your children's child states. Absolutely. That can mean that there are a lot of children at play. But that failure by parents is something that promotes a child's own resourcefulness and resilience later on. As I've said, creating a safe, predictable, attuned and reliable environment is possible for a little one means that the areas of the brain connected to self-regulation, opioid attachment reward system, the dopamine-based incentive systems that we've spoken about are more likely to develop in a healthy way with that kind of loving, comforting environment.

And according to Gabor Matej, I'll return to him, opiates are the chemical linchpins of the emotional apparatus in the brain. It's responsible for protecting and nurturing infant life. So addiction to opiates, like morphine and heroin, arising in a brain system that governs the most powerful emotional dynamic in the human existence, which is the attachment instinct. And that's love. So that's the way we can see how effective it might be to artificially create your own comforting, satisfying emotional environment through drug use. And inevitably means you're less connected in reality to others because that's an individual experience.

So drug use can also distance the user from pain, which has been caused, or they've experienced thus far from being in a less than satisfactory relationship. And there's also, I mean, there's so much more to say on arousal levels than the effect of difficult or traumatic childhood experiences. But again, we might to unpack that, maybe we do a shrink the inbox in that kind of experiences. But again, we might to unpack that maybe we do a shrink the inbox in that kind of area. Yeah, because we know we have time and shrink the inbox to just wax a lyrical on these ideas and look into deeper research and just discuss things in a bit of a deeper dive.

So I think what Kima has managed is to build a trusting relationship with bubbles. And she totally understood the implications of not coming through with a hundred dollars for him and ultimately disappearing out of her life. Like she made sure that McNulty gave him the money, even though she was in hospital. Yeah, yeah, because she's always thinking, you know, she's a loving person, but McNulty doesn't understand Bubbles the same way that she does. She said you were doing good. Said she was proud of you. How's he doing? Still shook. But she wanted you to have that and told me to tell you she's sorry to be late with it. Girl, that's such heart, you know. This is enough of what I got going on now, man. You

give good rest back to her. You sure? Hit me nutty. Don't tell her. I'm heartbroken. Yeah. I need to give some money back. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which means you know that he's not gonna spend it on the $100 for the mattress. It's one of those many moments,

like I was saying at the start of this show, that the gut punches that you get in this show. Kima, she feels like she owes Bubbles. It's just passing the money to him by way of McNulty is getting the wrong end of what he needs. I think that's what I was kind of fishing for is that she really has understood at a deeper level and has created that relationship. And she didn't really want to pay him for this part of informing. And I think McNulty hasn't really understood that. I mean, you

know, in chemo, we see the beginnings of healthy relationship building for Bubbles. And she tells McNulty to say to Bubbles, she's proud of him. She knows that that's important. And actually, thankfully McNulty's passed on that message. She knows the importance of that praise and the recognition of him getting clean in him continuing along that path. Despite the break, now she won't be aware of the mess around the break in contact. She genuinely feels like, I've got to get that money to him come

what may. Yeah. And in a rare sort of ray of light in amongst the bleakness, he does actually find his way out in the end, spoiler. He does. I mean, if we skip way ahead through the series, that arc is redemptive overall, but we have to say those themes that we've outland above play out again and again. Thinking about addiction in general terms, micro and the macro, bubbles and for the world. So we said unconditional love from friends and family, but that's not always easy, is

it? No. I mean, I think you've got to remember that often, difficult isn't it? Because we imagine in being part of a family that there is an element of unconditional love, but because of all kinds of positions and experiences that people take from early childhood and just the environment around them, often that love can be hard to give, especially if the addict is then abusive or committing crimes against you or elsewhere. I know that you've touched on Al Anon, for example, when Kami attended in the bear season one, and that's a fantastic organization that really supports family members

to help themselves to help the addict. So it's sort of all-around, wraparound support. Because of course, oftentimes when we're talking about addiction, we're thinking about the person who's addicted, but it's the system and the people around them as well who can often need support. And there can be patterns that exist within the family constellation that can end up enabling and reinforcing behaviors unwittingly. So for example, you might have a family member who's trying to fix everything, which enables the addict or another who might be denying everything. You can have these patterns that end up not being entirely helpful for any member of this

particular unit. It's also worth mentioning there's a lot of dissociation and denial and that means, I guess, a kind of sweeping under the carpet around addicts too. The shame, social pressure. One person might be trying to help while another chooses to turn a blind eye or, or can't see. And actually in this is sort of a triangle is the unseeing observer in what's happening while someone else is occupying a different position. Any advice for people who actually struggling with addiction right now? It's exceptionally hard to get addicts into help and rehab

if they don't want to help themselves. So, I mean, as we often say, that's got to start from the source and from the person, either the theory they won't participate, they leave, or they go back to their previous behaviors. So it is very difficult. There is a lot of help out there, and we're going to put some of those groups

in the show notes at the end of this episode, and just to make people aware they're not alone in this. There are a lot of places to go and ask for help. One day at a time. So who are we looking forward to next week? It's another episode of Shrink the Inbox. We have got a show that's full of surprises. We cover Wai-Ru from Euphoria, Idris Elba's Luther and so many others would make the perfect

clients and we discover the curious link between How to Fail, Great Listen by the way, Salman Roshi and our show. And our inbox is always open. Tell us what you think makes Tyrion such a survivor or just give us your theories, anything else you want covering. Let us know. Voice notes, emails to shrinkthe box at sonymusic.com. We would be thrilled if you could follow us on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music or

wherever you get your pod to get new apps. And if you do like it, please share us as much as you can so we can make some more. Yeah. We're kind of enjoying doing it, aren't we, man? Oh, man. I love it, man. And if you want the same show, but without the ads, you want to be a shrinker. Of course you do. You can subscribe to Extra Takes, get the ad free episodes from Kermode and Mayo's Take as well and their weekly bonus episodes and you can start your free trial now if you want by clicking try free at the top of the shrink the box show page on Apple podcasts or by visiting extra takes.com. Production management is Lily Hambly, the assistant producer is Scarlett O'Malley, the studio engineer is Theo Schlossman,

and the mix engineer is Garnet Vertical. The producer is Jeremy Newmark-Jones, the senior producer, Selina Ream, and executive producer, Simon Paul. Yeah, we'll see you then. Ta-da.