Kermode & Mayo’s Take - TOMMY SHELBY: We Peek Behind the Blinders in SHRINK THE BOX

Episode Date: May 21, 2024

Gang dynamics, whether you can escape a criminal heritage and the physiological cause and effect of PTSD. Plus, race rigging, opium smoking and casual violence - all in a day's work for The Peaky Blinders. We want to hear about any theories we might have missed, what you’ve thought of the show so far and your character suggestions. Please drop the team an email (which may be part of the show): [e-mail] NEXT CLIENTS ON THE COUCH. Find out how to view here Larry David, Curb Your Enthusiasm (Season 7) Michael, Office (USA. Season 1) Chandler, Friends (selected episodes) Sydney, The Bear (season 2) Tyrion, Game of Thrones (seasons 1&2). CREDITS We used clips from Season 1 of Peaky Blinders. Starring: Cillian Murphy (Tommy Shelby), Paul Anderson (Arthur Shelby), Sophie Rundle (Ada Shelby) Helen McCrory (Polly Gray) and Samuel Edward Cook (Danny Whizz-bang). Created by: D Steven Knight Written by D Steven Knight, Toby Finlay and Stephen Russell. Directed by: Otto Bathurst and Tom Harper. Produced by: Caryn Mandabach Productions, Tiger Aspect Productions and British Broadcasting Corporation (BBC). Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts. To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [e-mail]. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey Mark, you know I've been spending a lot more time in Denmark recently. Yep, the bakery date in Sydney calendar still. Well, it being a Nordic country and everything, I found the perfect solution to streaming all those lovely films and TV shows that we review whilst I'm there. What on earth would that perfect solution be, Simon? Well NordVPN, of course you see it's Nord, Nordic. You don't know it yet. I get it.

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Pano raisin. To take our huge discount off your NordVPN plan, go to nordvpn.com slash take. Our link will also give you four extra months for free on the two-year plan. Now back to the show. Hello, it's Simon here. And Mark. Thank you for listening. There's a special thing in our feed here and it's shrink the box.

This week Ben Nome will be putting Tommy Shelby in therapy. We'll have to ignore the fact that he's played by a favourite of ours, Killian Murphy. Tommy runs Peaky Blinders, a violent, organised crime family who have the black country completely locked down. He's cool, he's calm, but he's incredibly dangerous. Pick that one apart. On with the show. How's your beautiful horse? I just put a bullet in his head.

Was he lame? He looked at me the wrong way. It's not a good idea to look at Tommy Shelby the wrong way. Now we're in business, it's Ben Bailey-Smith here. And I'm Namo Metaxas. And welcome back to the place where we put TV's most intriguing fictional characters on the couch as we learn from our psychotherapist, Namo, what the issues of these fascinating people might be and how to help. Alright, so tell us about that first clip.

I mean, those few seconds, don't they encompass so much about Tommy, gentleman, fond of his horse versus the hard man with a reputation that he has to keep as head of Peaky Blinders, the criminal family living in Birmingham just after the First World War? I think I probably, you know, arrogantly placed it, you know, in that prejudice way of like, this is going to be some laddie, get the shoe off. There's a lot of slow motion. We're men moving slow now because we're doing really, really important things. Oh, yeah.

There's a lot of that. There is. But at the same time, there's an attention to detail with backstory and emotions with so many of the characters. Usually it's just the main two guys and then everyone else is a bit paper thin. We don't have that here, which elevates it, right? Yeah, you've got the full gamma of emotional kind of life in so many of the characters. And visually, it's a feast.

Because they're shot like a film, isn't it? Doesn't it feel like that? Next level. Every sort of long range shot feels like those shots from Once Upon a Time in America, you know? On Dumbo. I'm just imagining them walking, yeah. They're walking towards the garrison, the pub, and there's that wide shot.

But also it looks a bit like how I'd imagine purgatory to be. Do you know what I mean? It's dirty, it's grimy, it's hard to live in it. It's not hell, but it's hellish. Oh, man. I love it. It's beautifully put together. Do you want to talk music here? I don't know. There's too much.

If we're fanning out here, which we tend to do before we get into the psychology of things, we could do half an hour just the music, the needle drops, you know, the look of it like we've just discussed, the quality of the acting, the levels of, as we were just saying as well, depth in additional characters, although the Irish sort of conduit between the Shelby's and the Lee's. Yeah. Tommy Shelby then, lead character who we just heard, amazingly complex character, really epitomizing real life struggles. So I think there's a lot that we kind of feel from his way of being in the

world. Yeah, and through him, you know, I think Tony Sopranos sort of set the mold in TV of learning how to understand somebody who might consider taking someone else's life. This is an extension of that without a shadow of a doubt. But with more sympathy possibly, because we understand what the Great War was, that it changed people, men and women. And I think actually, as we'll come on to see, it extends further back than that,

because transgenerationally, the Irish are oppressed in Ireland by the British. So there's violence that runs as a theme through this. And that's all the macro stuff. Then you've got a dad like the one he's got. You know, like, I mean, geez. So we'll get into all of that. I'm glad you mentioned Tony Soprano, because bigger man, you know, stature-wise,

and he sort of commands power from the moment you're seeing him on screen. Tommy, I was struck. He's, you know, Gilead Murphy's quite slight. He's not jimmed out for this or anything or beefed up. And he commands so much power for quite a slight man. Everyone's dothing their cap to him in the first five minutes of episode one.

He's exuding being in charge, even though actually at that point, he's not in charge. No. It's Arthur. They're two types of dangerous, aren't they? Arthur's clearly a dangerous person. Well he's more unpredictable. In his body language, you can see it. He's coming towards you the way he speaks.

If you're just a bod who lives on the same street as the garrison, you're going to know not to f*** with Arthur Shelby. There's a similar and totally different danger in his brother because it's simmering there and the intensity of his body language and how he looks at you and of course, twinned with the intelligence, the way he can show you that he knows what you're thinking in this exchange. And that's terrifying, I think, to a person. Like if... He doesn't even need to say very much, does he? Yeah. I can't get one over on on this guy to have someone like Killian play him. I mean, he is Mr. Haunted.

I'm saying like you think about Oppenheimer, there's very few people who can show you a past life in the moisture of their eyeballs. All right, then let's enter the smoky charcoal filled domain. Coming up there's going to be opium smoking, copious opium, copious opium. That's quite satisfying to say. Copious opium smoking and whiskey drinking. We're going to look at why being in a gang can feel remarkably like a safe space until it's not and how the sins of the father can haunt even those on the straight and narrow. So get on your Bake a Boy hat,

be careful of the sharp additional pieces and welcome to Shrink the Box. ["Shrink the Box"] We should recap because there's so much I forgot. Yeah. I thought I've watched it already, so it's fine, but no. So this might be useful to anyone else who's like me. So obviously we're looking at Tommy.

He's the de facto head of this crew, the Peaky Blinders, who are real life there. Historically they did exist, but they were just bugs basically. Crime family in Birmingham. And this first season introduces us to the whole family business inside and out. Bookmakers, thieves, fighters, racketeers, they protect the local businesses in a mafioso style. We find out in episode four they have Traveler Blood on Tommy's mum's side who we don't meet. She's absent just like the father who we do briefly meet. The kind of matriarch is Aunt Polly

who obviously was the actual boss while the men were at war in the First World War. Tommy's clearly got a good head for business. He's not shy to fight, but he'll always try and use diplomacy first and try and outsmart people before it gets to that. He falls for this, I'm going to put it in inverted commas, barmaid, Grace, who's actually an undercover operative with the police. The big sort of plotty element is that there's this cache of hidden guns. This is the, that runs through the whole of the first series, doesn't it? And the sort of acquisition of a legal betting license, a sort of Billy Kimber, who, amazing performance by Charlie Creed Miles, is this London based gangster.

So he's the sort of king of the racetracks and obviously his organization is going to at some point come face to face with the Peakeys. They've also got the police on their tail as well Sam Neill. Inspector Campbell. He's a twisted person. Inspector Campbell, he's come over from Ireland to try and steady the ship, clean up the town like the proverbial sheriff is something malevolent about him.

They're very malevolent and he despises Tommy, the Shelby's. There's a jealousy there. Something that we'll talk about later, the kind of inter-relational elements from Ireland. Yeah. All right, well, let's get into a bit more detail about your client. Go on then. We've got Tommy Shelby, single male, as we see at the start of the series, born in Smallheath, Birmingham, family connections to Ireland and local Gypsy community, like

you said. So the Irish side is his dad's side and Romany Gypsy on his mother's side. One of five siblings in age order, Arthur is the eldest, then Thomas, then is it John then Ada then Finn? Or Ada then John then Finn? I reckon John must be older than Ada because he's got four kids. He looks so young. Yeah, yeah. He does. He's very baby face, isn't he? Tommy becomes the leader of the Peaky Blinders, the criminal gang,

organisation, criminal family running a gang organisation. He's a war veteran, so he is exhibiting signs of PTSD since serving in the First World War. And he served as a sapper tunneling behind enemy lines. We do see him use opium to ease the effect of PTSD and he's very serious in the first couple of episodes. I think we even see him smile or laugh until later in the series when business starts to improve and he starts to open up. It's part of the deal now too. Since when?

Since you nearly smiled. Although he is a gangster, we do see a softer side throughout the first series. He saves his best friend when the Italians want him killed. There's that sense of mercy and morality. You know, when they ostensibly shoot this guy and the Italians go, great, yeah, okay. Friends is an important thing actually, isn't it? You remember that moment where Inspector Campbell says, me and you are alike, we're the type of men who die alone, you know. And he says, no, you're forgetting I have my family.

Yeah. Which is true, and I think he means it in two ways, because his friends, they've all been through similar things to him. He's actually got people. Yeah, and it can work both ways. Actually, you might gravitate towards people with the same experience. they've all been through similar things to him. He's actually got people. Yeah. And it can work both ways. It actually might gravitate towards people with the same experience.

You might also want to get as far away from that experience as possible. That is true as well. But you see that protection, don't you? Like the way they calm Danny Whizbang down where he has a sort of panic attack early on in the first couple of episodes. Yeah.

And it's Tommy that does that. He's really sensitive to what's happening. The way everybody joins in, it doesn't feel like this is something they never do for each other. Do you know what I mean? It feels like, okay, this is the program. This is what you have to do. This is what you have to say. You know, like Scarlett Johansson calming the Hulk down. It's that kind of vibe. This is the way, yeah. His sensitivity towards family and friends is written throughout this series.

He looks out for Finn, one of the younger members, when he thinks that he might actually end up killed because they're actually after Tommy and Finn's playing in the car. This is a very young kid. He's like nine or something. Yeah. He's always looking out for his sister Ada. His sensitivity palpable in his feelings for Grace and that unfolds beautifully, I think, towards the end of series one. We can also see his more nurturing side with his gentleness towards animals. The horse who's spooked by the noise of Birmingham. Well, you kind of sense it in some of his encounters with other humans

that he does have a sensitive side. And like you say, he will look for a diplomatic path before he turns to violence. In France, we used to say, shh. In France we used to say it's just the music, old band turning up. Shh. It's just trombones and tubas, that's all. It's just noise.

Shh. It's just noise. It's just noise. You get used to it. There's a lot of research around the companionship that mammals offer people who've been through trauma. I think throughout this episode I'm going to refer to Bessel van der Kog and his work with war veterans and PTSD. He's a psychiatrist, psychotherapist who's behind the brilliant book The Body Keeps the Score. I don't know whether you've read it. I haven't, but I need to. It's been mentioned on this show before.

Yeah, I'm always panicking about it. And it had a profound effect on me because it helped give me a kind of greater picture of some of the experiences I'd been through. So in the book, he talks about dogs and horses, even dolphins, offering a helpful form of companionship that senses on feeling safe in a relationship with another being.

And dogs and horses now extensively used to treat some groups of trauma patients. His book was written 10 years ago, that equine therapy and therapy dogs, the use of therapy dogs, only grown since, and it can feel less threatening to foster a relationship with an animal rather than human beings,

because they can be scary and unpredictable. This delve a bit deeper into the war and its effect on him. Yeah, it's never far away, is it war? I mean I think his more explicit experience of trauma is probably a good place for us to start and context and timing is key for Peaky Blinders. It is anchored post the Great War and the First World War is always present and the PTSD that Tommy and his army pals have come home with. Many of the gang members served in the military for the United Kingdom during the war, which of course sets up another inner conflict because as I said the British

are repressors in Ireland during this period as well. Tommy's brothers served as well. Many of the gang members were in the same units. Like I referred to earlier, Thomas Shelby, feels like I'm going to tell him off, Thomas Shelby served as a sapper during the war. So that's someone who tunnels, tunneled underneath or behind enemy defences in order to strike with explosives. Pretty soon into this series, we see straight away that Tommy had a horrific experience as a sapper. During an attempt at tunneling behind enemy lines.

That's terrifying. He was listening for German soldiers at the dirt wall he and his unit were digging at and they're discovered and attacked by the enemy. Well, we see it in dream form and then we see him kind of, I actually think he's awake quite a lot of the time because it is a nightmare that revisits him most definitely in his sleep, but sometimes while he's awake as well and he's looking at the wall in his bedroom and feeling like the German soldiers could be on the other side preparing to take him down. And it's at those moments that I think he reaches for the opium which is a way of escaping that living

nightmare. It is explained later on that he was sergeant major of the small Heath Rifles, obviously that's the area they're from in Birmingham during World War One, meaning that he was in charge of the well-being of a whole unit of soldiers at a really early age because what we're seeing him, I know sort of late 20s in this series and then you know the war. Depending on when he was conscripted, which could have been as long ago as five years. So we meet Tommy in 1919. You have to sort of assume that he spent a decent amount of time in the army. There's a little bit on his file isn't there? He's highly decorated

as well so he's clearly he's got leadership qualities already. His PTSD is not the only example on the show. I mean Danny Whizbang here we've mentioned but Arthur who's his brother, the older brother, as well as many of the other Peaky Blinders gang members have you know we're seeing flashbacks, distressing memories, nightmares, triggers like loud sounds. They are the symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder. Many of them, like I've said, indulge in alcohol and opium to overcome their difficulties. And in fact, here he is explaining what it's like for him when those flashbacks come. No, I don't pray. I hope. Sometimes it happens. The sun baits them.

But mostly... the shovels bait the sun. An incredible representation of PTSD on this show. I think they have, Peaky Blinders didn't shy away from any of the mental health issues, if largely men actually, of that era, coming back from the Great War. Yeah. Do you think they know how to express what it is? Because one of the blinders comes up to him, doesn't he, and says, Arthur's got the blues

again. And he goes to see him in a church, I think, and he's off with whiskey, you know. It was interesting hearing it described as the blues. They've all got something that they share in. And when Danny Whizbang has it, that's got a name, you know. They have worked out a lexicon for it and they know what it is. I think it's less widely accepted and understood by their friends and family and the people who surround them.

But equally a distance that will be felt in the sense of these guys have absolutely no idea what I've been through. He's surrounded by people who all had very similar experiences, so there are people to talk to. And yet his isolation feels total. There's a period of time every day where he is just in his thoughts, man, and nobody can come near him.

So there's definitely pain that he's still, he's holding onto, even though there are people around him who would understand if he let it out. Yeah, he's putting a distance up. I think for a reason as a form of protection. It's easy for people like me to go, oh yeah, he's having a PTSD attack, but what's actually going on neurologically? Like what's happening to the body and the brain? Their experience of danger in that moment is as if they are back with the original trauma in the war zone. And I'll come on to why because they're kind of stuck in a position that they might have

found themselves in before. That is the kind of post-traumatic stress is that the body and the brain and the kind of protection system is reacting as if the trauma is real again. I'm always assuming that the body and the brain are trying to protect you. Like they are. Why put you in danger? Danny's endangered there because he is reliving that thing. He might kill somebody, might kill himself by accident, anything can happen and it does, anything does happen.

Yeah, it feels like back to front, doesn't it? Do you know what I mean? Yeah, definitely. Well, back to my old friend Bessel Van Der Kolk who says, the ability to have agency in our own safety and protection and kind of quieten our nervous system in the aftermath of trauma is really important. So while it's still going on or after it's finished, if you can reach a place of safety or feel like the danger is passing, then that would be optimal. If it isn't possible, for whatever reason, people can become stuck in a survival mode,

fight, flight flight or freeze. So if the survival response is successful, we're able to escape and the body and mind can eventually regain some sort of equilibrium, our senses return to the level they were at before and we can kind of manage ourselves around whatever danger we might be in front of. If you can't escape from danger, so if you've been in a war zone so if you've been in a war zone, if you've been in a car accident, if you're in the midst of domestic violence, rape, so trapped, prevented from taking action,

being held down, the system keeps acting towards survival. So the brain releases chemicals to deal with the stress, and the circuit continues to fire to no avail because it's still getting the sense of danger. So years after the event the brain may be activated to alert the body to a threat that doesn't exist anymore. So we see it in the case of Danny Wisbank. I can't take it anymore! On three! One, two, three, go! Breathe, Danny, breathe.

I'm getting out back! I'm getting out back! What did he hear that precipitated the effects that we just heard in that clip? A bang. Some kind of cap went off. You know, somebody had a shot down the road. But for him, his body will be reacting as if there's a sniper. You're not an artillery show, as if there's a sniper.

And so he's already gone into fight, flight or freeze mode and his body will be reacting continuously as if that's happening. So he's coming in the pub, he feels like it's actually happening. Does Van der Kolk go into detail on triggers and how to avoid them, or does does he say like, you've got to prepare the rest of your life for these, it's going to happen? Well, part of how we might work with this is the the awareness of that's what's happening is kind of key, because once you realize then that might be helpful. And I always say actually that these safety mechanisms or kind of protection systems are not to be got rid of because they've kept you very safe up till now. They're defences aren't they? They're not to be broken down,

they're to be understood more. But it might be that they're just not relevant anymore. But the nervous system is completely altered. And there's a different perception of risk and safety after trauma. And it is like the body's survival system is working against it, exactly like you said. So it's helping people in the therapy room to find ways to feel as safe as possible. And we would work with trauma like this in a kind of full body way.

You want a ground, you want to pay attention to how the body is. So it's helping people in the therapy room to find ways to feel as safe as possible of trying to relax, of regaining their sense of reciprocity. And that's their connection with others. So even though we're talking about such an extreme situation, the therapeutic approach to it is not that dissimilar to like someone say, I don't know, in a mesh relationship with their mom or their dad or something like that. And maybe there's addiction issues or alcoholism or something like that as a way of coping. Yeah, people's trauma comes in very many different forms. This is, I suppose, an archetypal example

of it from a war zone, but you can have similar responses in the body to very different kinds of trauma. Like I think about my dad, he lasted 33 days in the Battle of Normandy, 77 day battle before he got injured. He was in the battle of Normandy, 77 day battle, before he got injured. And he was in second World War. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He was born in 1925. So he was on there as a kid, a teenager in Normandy on D-Day. I wonder what my dad's was, because he was so, you know, he's the person who introduced me to comedy.

He was such a funny guy and he was so warm and he was so gentle. And yet I think back to what he was so warm and he was so gentle and yet I think back to what he was experiencing that same age as Tommy Shelby, how did he deal with it? In asking the question do you have a feeling that comedy was one of his coping strategies? I've never really thought about it until now. I just thought it was what a lovely thing to share with your kids. Laughter, like you can create laughter. Look, I'll show you. Look at the Marx brothers, look at Harold Lloyd and then taking it all the way through to more sophisticated stuff. So it's only ever something I've sort of linked with joyous moments of when he was around, do you know what I mean? But yeah, it's possibly very true,

who knows. So you've also kind of brought us into a lovely area about social connection and the idea of feeling safe, which is also talked about around trauma, and that the feeling of being safe or the idea of feeling safe is fundamental to our kind of idea of living a meaningful or satisfying life and social connection is one of the most effective ways of guarding against kind of overwhelm of stress and the trauma that that can cause. So, and that's not social connection as being in the same place as a load of people because we, as we know, you can be with hundreds of people and not feel particularly safe or not feel like you're connected. But really, it's reciprocity between people.

So that feeling that people are keeping us in mind, that they want to share something with us, that they're looking out for us, or they love us. Just exactly what you're describing with that. And for our nervous system to feel a sense of calm, we need a loving environment. So that's where your experience might differ from the one that we're seeing Tommy kind of experience. Maybe my experience would have been way different, I say maybe, probably would have been way different again if I already existed. If I was a little kid when he came back. Did he ever talk about those experiences? Not until 2004, which was the 60th anniversary of D-Day.

My dad did end up speaking with my sister over a course of weeks, and she recorded the conversations and wrote an incredible essay for the Daily Telegraph that came out on the day of the anniversary of D-Day. It's called, My Father, the Accidental Hero. So if you look at that and my sister's name is Zadie Smith, we'll stick a link on the show notes. Don't start reading it because then you won't come back. Because after the break, we're going to look at the gang dynamics,

the whole sort of criminal underworld, what effect that has on him. So yeah, we're looking at some pretty dark stuff, race rigging, marriage fixing, offering your brother's fiance money for sex for reasons and we'll see you in a moment unless you subscribe to the take of course, in which case we'll see you faster then you can order a pint at the garrison. This episode is brought to you by the curated streaming service Mubi. Mark for our wonderful listeners who already have a Mubi account and for those who might be thinking about getting one, could you please tell us what films they can enjoy this May? Certainly Simon.

This month Mubi are launching their Cannes takeover. You know how much I love Cannes and in honour of the Cannes Film Festival which kicks off this month, here is a selection of what they have available to stream in the UK They have Annette which is the Leos Carracks musical with music by Sparks, which is absolutely wonderful and Tokyo Gart Which is the film by a German director Vim Venders who travels to Tokyo to explore the world of one of his cinematic heroes Yesujira Ozu. That's Mubi's Cannes takeover series. What else? Well, there's also Voilá Varda, which is a look back on some of the best of the famous French director. There's Clio from 5 to 7, Le Bonheur, Vagabond, The Gleaners and I and The Beaches of Agnes.

You can try Mubi free for 30 days at mubi.com slash Kermade Meo. That's m-u-b-i dot com slash Kermade Meo for a whole month of great cinema for free. So we just wanted to tell you about what our friends at Rooftop Film Club are up to. As you know, they are London's king of outdoor cinema. More than just a movie with rooftop experiences located at Bussey Building in Peckham and Roof East in Stratford. Sit back, relax, get cosy in a blanket and use the QR code on your seat to have food and drink delivered

directly to you. They're playing all the award-winning films like Past Lives, Anatomy of a Fool, All of Us Strangers, but also classics like Interstellar when Harry Met Sally and more recent films like Challengers and Fall Guy. Rooftop Film Club offers memberships for as little as £25 per month. That's not all, as a Vanguard Easter you get 2 for 1 tickets on a Wednesday with the code Alright, welcome back. Now gangs, you know, they're an entity we've talked about before on this show, Top Boy and The Wire. Why would someone be drawn to a gang, you know, when you can see what the danger is? I mean, Peaky Blinders, the whole world is dangerous. It's

not like there's a dangerous corner of small heath. The whole thing feels wrought with danger. Well, that might be why it's safety in numbers, safety in the gag. The experience of trauma plays havoc with the way you experience your environment, and you can become chronically out of sync with your surroundings following trauma. So that will be in and of itself a reason to kind of stick with the people that you came back from the First World War with. There'd be comfort in staying with the group that

understands your experience and for Tommy and his mates you can replay your combat experiences and be safe in the knowledge that if something happens to you as we see with Danny Whizbang, somebody's going to look after you because they understand it. But it might come at a price because membership to groups like this which have trauma at their heart, can also feel like you're only granted membership and made to feel like you belong if you conform to the norms within the gang. And we see that in the wider Shelby network. If they're asked of something or something is asked of them, especially by Tommy, even

if they don't agree with it, they're going to do it. Violence is a part of it. Of course. Drinking is a part of it. Smoking is a part of it. Imagine if you turned up saying, no, I don't drink. Actually, I'm a vegan. Sorry. I don't think I can. That also means that others or outsiders, they might be seen as dangerous. So the othering that happens in the instance of a gang might be amplified. And that's catastrophic for some of

the other relationships, i.e. family, romantic relationships. And gangs and political parties that are quite extreme and cults, they might provide solace and Bessel van der Kolk talks about this, but they rarely foster the mental flexibility needed to be fully open to everything that life has to offer. So they don't end up offering liberation from trauma because part of the reason you're in that space and with that group is the connection through the shared experience. So the only time there may be a going against of the grain would be when there's a perceived breaking of the code, you know, or the loyalty. So, you know, when, for example,

they believe that Tommy has had their sister Ada's husband arrested on purpose. Bolshevik Freddy, yeah. Freddy Thorne. That's probably the biggest moment of like turning against each other and going, actually, no, you're not doing it your way, you know on the whole you're right it's like when you're in you're in like everything goes even with little finn who's like nine years old he'll be there and it's not just you know when he nearly gets blown up you think oh that's what what a terrible coincidence that he was there at that time no you see him alongside them with machetes and all sorts. It's crazy. So, I mean, the amount of bravery it must take to be able to break free of that. Like, how's Finn gonna go, like, wake up in the morning and go, actually, you know what, look, my uncle just got

stabbed, this guy just got punched, this guy got shot in the head. I'm off. You know? We end up seeing it in later series, actually through Ada initially, who definitely doesn't want to be known as a Shelby. And that's Tommy and Arthur's and Finn's and John's sister. But even she can't escape because she's a point of weakness for the family. Also, she's targeted. Yeah, yeah. By their enemies. But also she has strength within the setup,

even though she might want to break free. I was really struck rewatching the first series, one of the first couple of episodes is so much greyness. Everyone's dressed in black and grey and the sky is black and the buildings are caked in black. Dirt. It's dark and dirty. And she strides through this cesspit with some amazing colourful coat looking like Joseph, do you know what I mean? She does.

And no one f*** with her. No. I mean, family is key, isn't it? Yeah. I think- Status within it and- Yeah. Tommy's position in the family, he's second eldest, but he definitely carries a responsibility. And that, for me, felt like he was given that or he kind of assumed that from an early age. It feels like, okay, Arthur does have PTSD, but he's also less predictable, really unpredictable and less controlled. I think he's always been a bit like that. And struggles to hide his emotions.

Tommy seems to be an expert in hiding how he's actually feeling, whereas Arthur's going to let it out. And then Aunt Polly as well, that dynamic. There's a special relationship between those two, isn't there? Tommy and Polly. Yeah, matriarch. Like you said, she's been running the whole shebang for the five years that the men were at war.

Potentially five whole years. And now they're back. And, you know, initially, it is kind of an inevitable power struggle. Because why should she give up the top spot? And you fixed this race without the permission of Billy Kimber? No. Obviously didn't teach you well enough. Rule one, you don't punch above your weight. You fixed this race without the permission of Billy Kimber. Obviously didn't teach you well enough. Rule one, you don't punch above your weight. Billy Kimber is there for the taking.

Says who? Says Tom in his Parliament of One. I ran this business for five years. Yeah, well I was away fighting, remember? From outside, no one would be stupid enough to assassinate Polly. So she's clearly still got sway. And she is across everything. Yeah. And how to play things as well.

Like you can see that genetic link between her and Tommy, because they both have that emotional intelligence when it comes to the chess game side of a criminal empire, a criminal enterprise. It is interesting. They do have that. And I think there's an element though, where Holly is definitely more openly compassionate and Tommy wastes absolutely no time in telling her that her own more compassionate nature and ideas get them into trouble. And what they should do is stick to his more rational methods or strategies. You mentioned parenting. We get a glimpse at the parenting they may or may not have had

and the desire for kinship with their dad via Arthur. So sad. Oh, I mean, Dad pops up, it's around episode five of the first series. Tommy is straight into you've got to go, get out. He refuses to hear anything that his dad has to say, doesn't believe that he's a changed man, as Arthur Sr. would like us to believe. Like, if you don't remember this, Arthur Shelby Sr. returns to the house

and you can feel the tension the minute he's in there. You realize quite quickly his plan is to borrow money and put it into this investment, which sounds very, very fishy. A dream casino that he's making in the States, I think, is far enough away not to be questioned. I was going to say, I'm not even sure that's actually where that money's going, but that's certainly the story that he's peddling to Arthur Jr.

Absolutely. Arthur Jr., who happens to be the eldest sibling, is desperate to believe that their father wants them, wants to build a life with them, wants to run a business with them, has their best interests at heart, that he loves them. And that moment of their father's declaration of love in the boxing ring whilst making Arthur fight him, I found chilling. Oh God, it was horrific. And that whole story is heartbreaking start to finish. No other Shelby wants anything to do with Arthur Shelby Sr.

Except like you say, Arthur and little Finn. Most of that story, Finn's there when Sr. tells him about the casino. The possibility for a brighter life in America. Finn's there like a bloke in the pub with these other two blokes. And Arthur comes across as younger than Finn.

Well I was going to say this. The way he responds, everything. He's, he's, that's the young self-state. Waiting for him, like you wait for your dad after school. Yeah, that's the young self-state that is at the fore there and he desperately wants the fantasy father. It's kind of relentless hope is why he refuses to believe his dad's this loyal. It's part of letting his more emotional side run the show,

which we know is what happens when we're a bit younger. Yeah. And it's like, they're telling us, only a nine-year-old would potentially believe this bullshit. It's kind of catastrophic for Arthur. He gets let down in the end by his dad. It has devastating consequences. Yeah.

And then has to face the prospect of telling Tommy, resulting in his suicide attempt. It's one of the first and most powerful times he uses humour. He should have used a gun. Yeah. Well, I think he connects with his brother in that sort of way that siblings can. Absolutely. Without saying it, he's saying, I want to do this every day, bro. I love you.

Every day I want to do this, but we've got to keep going. He says all of that without saying it. Let's talk about the other sibling relationship then. He's got Arthur, he's got Ada, he's got little Finn, but he's also got John. John is definitely looking to Tommy as the leader and we don't see that clearer than when John comes to the family and says, I'm going to marry Lizzie Wardle. And Tommy then goes out to test Lizzie who is... Lizzie is a sex worker. When we see Tommy approach Lizzie, initially I felt like it was sold to us as the benevolent

actions of an older brother taking care of his younger sibling. But there's such a great power difference between Tommy and Lizzie in that exchange. That's what I thought as I was watching it. It's like, this isn't a level, I get your point, but this is not a level playing field. Yeah. So Tommy's basically saying, just one more time, you know, for old times sake, will you see me? To which she grabs the cash after a kind of pause.

It's not a kind of pause. It's not a kind of, she is kind of like... I got the feeling in that moment, she was like, I've stopped, I've given up. Exactly. But like, obviously I'm gonna have to come out of retirement for this. That's the vibe that I got.

Yeah, and what we later learn is Tommy has other plans for John. So he's gonna marry John into the Lee family so that he can call a truce, which is a massive power move on a grand scale. So is it benevolent, controlling, conniving? Is he looking after his own or the family's interests? Let's have a listen. Look John, you're my brother. There's something I have to tell you. Yesterday, in the front seat of that car, I offered Lizzie some money.

And John, she said yes. Now that's a fact. You do with it what you want. You take the keys, take Lizzie to the country, marry her if you want. But you have to know, she said yes. It's slick as well, making it seem like it's all John's decision.

Hey, I'm just providing a bit of info here. I'm just telling you. You do whatever you want. You're your own man. He's playing him, man. Which, you know, makes you think about the even bigger relationship he's got with another woman, Grace, the barmaid, in inverted commas. Is this all part of his grand scheme or is love really blind? Like you know, Bolly says the only thing that could stop you thinking straight would be real love. So are you asking if Grace is part of a grand scheme?

would be real love. So are you asking if Grace is part of a grand scheme? I mean, let's remind people the undercover plant for the police is behind the bar in the garrison. And he's not overly friendly to begin with. There were moments where you thought, is he testing the waters here that she could be a mole? Because there's three or four times where she'll try and just move the conversation

gently towards what goes on in the upstairs in that flat and he'd climb up. Does he know? Doesn't he know? Will they? Won't they? I mean, Grace and their relationship, I think, is key to understanding Tommy Shelby. He wears a mask of not caring, not being tender, but also the killing machine he knows he can be is never far from the surface. There's a scene towards the end, I think it's episode five, where he's embroiled with the IRA. They've asked him to do something and he's not playing ball and he bludgeoned an IRA man to death to save himself and grace and he's in tears telling her you've seen me and she replies you've seen me too.

He's terrified of the monster within which is now shown to this woman and he's probably feared made him unlovable. There's something else to say about this is people keeping others at a distance to hide part of themselves that they feel are unbearable. Right. Yet they long to be loved for all their self-states and flaws, for their whole selves to be welcomed by somebody. And that's such a pivotal moment when those two are kind of admitting that, look, I'm all the things that you've seen so far, and I'm this. Because we can see how fearful Tommy is of parts of himself being seen.

And it kind of, you know, then make sense of why he's so closed, why he's distant a lot of the time. From a writing perspective, it makes it adds a level of intrigue, doesn't it? So you want to know more. And you also sort of understand why Grace wants to peel back an onion layer. And find out more because he's a beautiful man. That distance, if you're falling for somebody, you kind of want to know more of it. And then the fact that it's a little bit scary is maybe also kind of,

it adds to the frisson somehow. We can be for some people. Some people be running a mile. Yeah, for someone like Grace, who we know has has... Violence is not completely foreign to her. No. Loss is not foreign to her. That's why she is a brilliant piece of casting, because she does look like, you know, fairly wealthy. And he sort of calls her for it in the first place.

He's kind of a fairly wealthy girl from Ireland. He's come over, got herself in trouble, come over to kind of hide in Birmingham. Yeah, yeah. And yet he knows... It's way deeper than that. And I think he understands that's not the truth. All right, awesome.

We'll be right back after these ads, unless you're a shrinker, in which case, here's less than three seconds of music. Imagine yourself in Ottawa, surrounded by thousands of vibrant tulips and discovering your new favorite micro brew before cycling along scenic bike paths and wandering through a museum in awe. Adventure awaits in Ottawa from O to A. Plan your getaway at OttawaTourism.ca. Imagine being the first person to ever send a payment over the internet. New things can be scary, and crypto is no different. It's new, but like the internet, it's also revolutionary.

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Yeah, of course. Perhaps for these younger family members, there might be some guilt attached to, look at how we're living. My parents never got to do this and violence that could have been carried through the generations, they will know it through the actions of their parents. I mean, their dad is obviously no stranger to violence as shown in the boxing scenes with Arthur. And Tommy's carrying all of that, so many burdens this guy is carrying. You do have to feel for him. But an acceptance and awareness first and foremost of these patterns is the thing that could save his life in the future because he's at war again

in peacetime. And I think Killian Murphy's talked about. In real terms and emotionally. Yeah, that he carries this trauma unexamined through the final six series, isn't it? So it'd be interesting to see if they do actually make the film of Peaky Blinders. Are they talking about doing that? Yeah, the Tommy that we meet.

They've been asked about it quite recently. Really? That'd be interesting. I just hope they don't mess it up, man. It's a stuff. Sopranos film, it does, it has no, to me, no, it was not on the same level as the granular detail in terms of emotion and why human beings do stuff.

The deep stuff that you want from great drama has to have that to be able to, you know, attach itself to what a great piece of work this is. Alright, shall we park it there? Let's park it there for now. So Nimone, who is going to be gracing the couch next? Well, this is going to bake your noodle. Take a listen to this. I've got a couple little things.

Michael, love the entrance. That slide, it's working. Well, it's making me a bit dizzy, but I'll do anything for you, Larry. Julia, the business with the apple? Come on, how funny is that? Hey, it was your idea and it completely works. The glasses? You're killing me. I can't do it as good as you, but I'm gonna keep trying.

And that new line, the comquat and the quail? You're amazing. Amazing. Amazing. You're really unbelievable, Larry. That has to be a dream sequence. I like it. I hear Larry David, obviously the legendary Larry, but it also sounds like it's got the cast of Seinfeld in it. You are not wrong. So we've covered Seinfeld on the show before and now the natural thing

to do is to move on to Larry David. Co-creator and writer of Seinfeld, we'll be covering Curb Your Enthusiasm and you're right, that was the dream sequence in series seven where Larry is giving notes to the Seinfeld cast. Everyone just loves him. So this is crazy. So this is like meta, meta, meta, meta because... Few levels to this, yes. Yeah, because we're going to do Larry David. We said from the very start when this show was just a young, untraumatized fetus.

Flinging. That we wouldn't do like fictional representation of a real person because then you're getting in all sorts of hot water trying to say what this real person feels. This is slightly different because it's just, it is Larry David, but it's not Larry David at all. Well, we're going to do Larry David, the character in Curb Your Enthusiasm, not Larry David at all. Well, we're going to do Larry David, the character in Curb Your Enthusiasm, not Larry David, the man. I mean, jury's out as to how closely related. It's pretty damn different.

I mean, he's incredibly close to his daughters. Being a father is like a huge part of the real Larry David. Whereas the Larry we know from Curb. Not so much. I don't think he even considers children like human beings. The few occasions he comes across and he just swats them aside. Idiots. That's why they're still kids because they're stupid. There are hundreds of these that we could do. Season seven though we're going to do. One of the best Curb Your Enthusiasm seasons.

Incidentally running into its last season 12 now and it's also where there's a lot of Seinfeld nostalgia and a lot going on. Because this is the one where he's doing the Seinfeld reunion. So there's loads to get. Hilarious season. Ah teeth in two and don't worry if you haven't seen season seven yet it's easy to dip into and out of the episodes. They mostly stand alone.

Season seven is how I learned acting without acting. I learned how to do it. I want you to do that face and I want to post it somewhere. Ben's doing his acting without acting face. We should post things, shouldn't we? Certainly. We're going to explain any cross season through lines going on in the story. We'll explain it all.

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You also get ad free episodes from our friends over at Kermode and Mayo's Take and access to their weekly bonus episodes. You can start a free trial by clicking try free at the top of the shrink the box show page on Apple podcasts or by visiting extra takes dot com. Thank you as well to our production team. Production management is so you handily the assistant producer is Scarlett O'Malley. The studio engineer is Mateus Torres-Sole and the mix engineer is Josh Gibbs, senior

producer, Selena Ream and executive producer, Simon Paul. engineer is Mateus Turesole and the mix engineer is Josh Gibbs, senior producer Selena Ream and executive producer Simon Paul. And as you've heard we've been using clips throughout the pod, full credits and useful links are all going to be in the show notes of this episode. Good, good. Alright well until then. See you then. Ta ta.