Kermode & Mayo’s Take - TYRION LANNISTER knows how to play the Game...of Thrones SHRINK THE BOX

Episode Date: July 2, 2024

Ben and Nemone put Tyrion Lannister from Game of Thrones on the couch. Tyrion doesn’t conform to society’s norms. How does he use that to his advantage? He’s booksmart, cunning and the most open-minded man in Westeros. This ‘half-man’ is, in fact, three times as impressive as any of his peers. We look into difference, diversity and skulduggery in this latest episode. Don’t miss it!  We want to hear about any theories we might have missed, what you’ve thought of the show so far and your character suggestions. Please drop the team an email (which may be part of the show): [e-mail]  NEXT CLIENTS ON THE COUCH. Find out how to view here Alex and Bradley, The Morning Show (Season 1) Tasha, Orange is the New Black (season 2) Polly, Peaky Blinders (seasons 1&2) Reginald "Bubbles" Cousins, The Wire (Season 1) Moira Rose, Schitt's Creek (Season 1) Raymond Holt, Brooklyn 99 (selected episodes)  CREDITS We used clips from Season 1 of Game of Thrones. It’s available to watch on NOWTV. Starring: Peter Dinklage as Tyrion Lannister Sean Bean as Eddard Stark Mark Addy as Robert Baratheon Nikolaj Coster-Waldau as Jaime Lannister Michelle Fairley as Catelyn Stark Lena Headey as Cersei Lannister Emilia Clarke as Daenerys Targaryen Iain Glen as Jorah Mormont Aidan Gillen as Petyr Baelish Harry Lloyd as Viserys Targaryen Kit Harington as Jon Snow Created by: George R.R. Martin (based on novels by) David Benioff (adapted for screen by) D.B. Weiss (adapted for screen by) Directed by: Mark Mylod Alan Taylor David Benioff D.B. Weiss et al. Produced by: Christopher Newman Mark Huffam Greg Spence Lisa McAtackney Duncan Muggoch For HBO  We would love to hear your theories: [e-mail]  A Sony Music Entertainment production.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Everyone's got a thirst, a drive to be the next big thing, to put the world on notice. If you answer when your thirst calls, Sprite's for you. Sprite's for the makers and creators, the visionaries putting in the work to build their dreams. Whether you're shooting a cinematic masterpiece on your phone, filling notebooks with sketches, or up all night turning your bedroom into the booth, thirst is everything. Obey your thirst. Right. Hello, Simon and Mark here. This week, Ben and Nimone are putting Tyrion Lannister from Game of Thrones on the couch.

Yes, the bot of all the Lannisters jokes and outsider with a unique perspective and an underappreciated political genius among all the dealings in Westeros. It's going to be fascinating. Indeed. They'd love your emails, voice notes and anything else at shrinkthebox at sonymusic.com. Enjoy. You are the bastard, though.

Lord Eddard Stark is my father. And Lady Stark is not your mother. Making you... ...a bastard. Let me give you some advice, bastard. Never forget what you are. The rest of the world will not. Wear it like armour.

And it can never be used to hurt you. What the hell do you know about being a bastard? All dwarves are bastards in their father's eyes. It's Ben Baster-Smith here. Ramon Mataxis. I didn't know you were going to call yourself that. Disgust. Welcome once more to the podcast that puts our favourite fictional protagonist into the therapeutic spotlight. That was Nimone, you heard from there, our resident psychotherapist, here to shed some light on why these characters do the things they do and I'll try and uncover

whatever else I can uncover that's left. You'll bring your bits. Yeah, I'll bring my stuff. Tell us about that opening clip there. Oh, I think that's really important. That was Tyrion Lannister played by Peter Dinklage talking to Jon Snow, who's Kit Harrington, the actor. They both have something in common. They are both outsiders. And this is kind of at the core of Tyrion's world. It's at the core of Game of Thrones really, but the core of certainly Tyrion's world, how he is different and other, but has learned to build a shield around himself for the most

part. Although after this exchange, he kind of walks off drinking as if to drown his sorrows and distance himself from the pain of this fact, because you hear him deliver it as a sort of fact to John Snow, but you can, I think quite often we can feel the pain of Tyrion and we can see how keenly he feels his difference and we'll get into the lack of acceptance from his father and all the reasons that that might be as well. As always, I say we'd love to hear from anyone listening about the characters we're discussing, the theories that you have, the issues we're talking about. But in this episode particularly, I will refer to Tyrion as person with dwarfism and person of small stature. In the therapy room, it's always quite important to use the language a client

uses to talk about themselves. So I'm going to stay as close as I can to the language that Tyrion uses to describe himself. But as always, as ever, I'm going to stay as close as I can to the language that Tyrion uses to describe himself But as always as ever I'm keen to hear your thoughts on anything We're covering and any experience of dwarfism any terminology you're familiar with would you think it would be helpful for us to use as well? So shrink the box at Sony music.com. I interviewed pizza or Serrano yeah, of course, and it was fascinating hearing him talk about that stuff. As I was asking him, you know, all the Serranos that have come before

have been able to put on a prosthetic nose. And he like, that just triggered him into talking about dwarfism and what he was bringing to the world, what he carried to it and what he carries to every role because of other people's perceptions, but also because of how he sees and understands himself. He is a fascinating dude. And I think he has chosen roles particularly where he can challenge stereotypes. And obviously

Cyrano de Bergerac is one of those, as is Tyrion Lannister. The best character for me in the show. I mean, we don't need to get into too much of the fandom around Game of Thrones as a whole, but Tyrion in particular is the best character. He's the funniest. He's got the best lines, he's the one I feel like we want the best for. We're rooting for him the most. When you think about it, like, there's all the constant boozing and the constant boobs, it's like constant boos, constant boobs. Even that, almost like with us, he sort of goes, us, tired of this.

Even that, almost like with us, he sort of goes, us, tired of this. Do you know what I mean? We've raised our eyebrows. Tyrion's doing it on the show. Yeah. He's like our guide. I love him. All right. So coming up, we're going to look at one of the most talked about TV slaps since Moira.

Well, yeah. Don't have to go very far, do we, on the show for another one of those. In Schitt's Creek. And we're going to talk about how playing with yourself can get you out of a whole heap of bother. You be careful how you say that. So let's get into the character who makes us question who's a hero, who's a villain, who we really want to have power in Game of Thrones, and a reminder that there's going to be swearing. I mean, I swore on the very opening.

So welcome back guys to another Shrink the Box. So welcome back guys to another Shrink the Box. Okay here's our mini recap as ever we'll only talk about the plot that directly relates to our client. So you remember King Robert Baratheon and his Queen Cersei Lannister travel north to offer his old friend Ned Stark, Lord of Winterfell, the role of Hand of the King. Ned's 10 year old son Bran discovers that Cersei and Jaime Lannister, brother and sister, are involved in this incestuous relationship. Jaime pushes Bran out the window to keep him from telling anyone and from that Ned figures out that Joffrey, Queen Cersei's son, is not heir

to the throne as his dad is actually his uncle. Spoiler alert. Ned is beheaded. This starts a massive war because the Stark and the Baratheons want to contest the Lannisters taking the throne. Meanwhile, another Lannister sibling, Tyrion, the black sheep of the family, who normally spends his time drinking and whoring, is now expected to become part of the battle and whilst his father Tywin leads the charge, Tyrion is made a temporary Hand of the King and starts to find some purpose in life. So with all that in mind, introduce us to this week's client. I will, so, Mael, I think we're saying twenties. We learn during the first or possibly early second series, mother died, giving birth to him, which is pertinent to both the other siblings and how they treat him.

He is a person with dwarfism. He calls himself dwarf. He is called imp, half man. He is son of Tywin Lannister, brother to Cersei and Jaime who you just mentioned in that incestuous relationship. They are all the Lannister clan. And Tyrion, who we learn later on in series two, I think, is divorced. Maybe it's series one actually, early on. So he married, did he marry a sex worker? I can't remember. We'll come on to that.

All right. I mean, it's used to kind of, yeah, it's used to stick to beat him with. Absolutely. Ridicule him. So as you've already drawn attention to, we, yeah, it's used to stick to beat him with. Absolutely. So as you've already drawn attention to, we're shown early on that Tyrion loves to drink, loves women. He's very aware of his dwarfism and he uses it as a shield. He mentions it, I think he mentions it before his detractors do to kind of take the sting out of it, take the power out of it, of that difference and perhaps to signal to people, you can't hurt me in that way, don't even try

it. And he deflects people's comments can't hurt me in that way. So don't even try it. And he deflects people's comments by using his height as a distraction. He's the first to make fun of himself in lots of ways. And we can think about that as a defense a little bit later on. And even references his height when he's being vulnerable about how his stature has affected his relationships. He is constantly alluded to being the black sheep in the family and kind of heightens our awareness of his status as the outsider in that Lannister family group.

He's often referred to as the imposter, as we said, or half prince, very effectively at the end of the battle of King's Landing as half men and the entire battalion are kind of shouting that for him. It really is a compliment in the way that he's handled the battle. Tyrion begins Game of Thrones by being overtly sexual and quite vulgar at times. He's also extremely witty and funny. And at the outset of series one, I think he comes across as a bit lost. He doesn't really have a role in the Lannister family. And Tyrion uses his privilege, as we see early on, as a rich Lannister or the wealth of his family to kind of make his way through the different realms in Game of Thrones,

promising anyone he meets along the way, gold and land, because a Lannister always pays his debts. Yeah. Or her. Or her. You know, if you're told that you are something, the Roggettree, every day, all the time, eventually you're going to see what you can do with this label. If he's coming into your office, having spent his life, you know, being called the black sheep, the one who killed their mom, what do you think might be the first thing he, well, he'd probably proposition you, wouldn't he? But after that. I was thinking, I mean, Tyrion might be one of the characters who would come into therapy

from Game of Thrones. Yeah, he's that smart. He's self-aware enough and reflective enough. And I think you're right, I think it would be a bit of an adventure and I certainly wouldn't rule out that a proposition might be the first thing or first overture he might make towards his therapist. I mean, he often alludes to being the black sheep of the family, feeling as though he's an outcast and not wanted by his father and his wider family, to be honest. I think that would be an error to explore in therapy with him, his kind of desire to please and be accepted by his father and his wider family.

Because of course there is that need to belong, not feel outcast or disliked for who we are. And at its most basic, the kind of danger in having to survive outside the group and that being much harder than being kind of in the middle of it. And what can emerge sometimes is a kind of splitting within the family. So this old so-called black sheep can end up holding a lot of the difficult emotions that the other family members are unable to bear. So here, shame, fear, inadequacy.

I mean, we can think of that happening via projection from the other members of the family, so Cersei, Jaime, Tywin, and a kind of interjection by the so-called black sheep. So Tyrion takes all this on board and any abuse leveled at him by the other Lannisters could potentially be another way of the other family members splitting parts off of themselves

because they despise those bits. Let Tyrion have that and he can be the container of those feelings. And as you said, if you're called that enough, or if the other parts of you aren't welcomed within the family, you might start believing said, if you're called that enough, or if the other parts of you aren't welcomed within the family, you might start believing some of what you're hearing. Right. There's a sad, there is a sadness there, isn't there? For all the bluster and the wits, and he is clearly the funniest, he's the funniest guy in the whole of Westeros. There is this like,

he's mastered dinklage, the actor has mastered that hangdog expression. The pathos. You know, and like every now and again, your heart just breaks for him. Well, of course, all of this doesn't happen in isolation, does it? Context is key. Here is a what? They are constantly at war, pretty much from the beginning of the first series. Physical strength, fighting prowess, everything dominates. Etyrian's quite an easy target in that environment. And we can reflect actually on how easy or safe it is to show weakness and vulnerability

within the Lannister clan more widely and that environment generally in King's Landing and Game of Thrones. So projection becomes a strong defense for the siblings onto Tyrion. I'm kind of curious about the feelings that might be evoked in others in his family by disability or in this case dwarfism. Does it remind them of a fragility? Is that how they're feeling about it? Yeah, that's a good point. The dad is embarrassed by him being anything like a face of the family in other places.

Oh, he's kept hidden. Yeah. Yeah. And then of course, that central issue of the fact that their mum died and giving birth to him means he's got, there's so much bitterness and resentment towards him from kickoff, really. There's collective grief at the loss of their mother and Tywin's wife. And no one's wasted any time in giving that a focus. Tyrion. So that, I mean, he's for them, certainly, he's the one to blame. And the fact that he's held responsible by others for killing their mother without physical difference being in the field. I

mean, it'd be interesting to explore how much guilt he carries or what his feelings are about the loss of their mother. I mean, Cersei really digs the knife in during series two. Let's hear that. It's all fallen on me. As has Jaime repeatedly according to Stannis Baratheon. You're funny. You've always been funny, but none of your jokes will ever match the first one,

will they? You remember back when you ripped my mother open on your way out of her and she bled to death. She was my mother too. Mother gone for the sake of you. There's no bigger joke in the world than that. I mean, Cersei really turning his humor against him. He's...

Horrible or not? It's awful when you're seeing it. It's quite difficult to listen to again, isn't it? And we might reflect together in therapy where Tyrion to come, what it was like for him to grow up without a mother, how much space there has been for him to grieve. I imagine very little.

Well, you can't hear any of it in the series, can you? He's totally blamed for the loss of Martin. You can hear it in Cersei there. And that's hard enough at the best of times, alongside a father who rejects him in a society that sees him as less than. It's a rough start in life. Is there anything that you can speak on or anything you could say about losing a parent in that way compared to losing a parent at say seven or eight years old, which presumably

maybe Cersei or Jaime was. I mean, I think there is a missing that happens that's reflected in the environment around you, which you will pick up on. So you might, obviously you won't know that person. So you're not missing a person who you've met, but there is loss to be felt. And it's how that shows up for you, which will be different. Because we're talking about internal and external worlds as well, aren't we? And obviously for Tyrion, he doesn't have an external mother figure to miss. Like perhaps Jaimean. Jaimean says they are older than him. Yeah, I think he's the youngest. So then, but he will experience missing.

He's also being told that she is greatly missed and blamed for it. And I suppose there will be myths and lies he can't prove or disprove. Well, his only way of knowing her is through the people around him. Yeah. And who are awful people. So we should probably mention Charles Tans's character, Tywin Lannister, the sort of the patriarch of... He is. Tyrion, Cersei and Jaime's no father and he's played brilliantly by Charles Dance.

The rumors of your demise were unfounded. And we get a real window I think in the relationship between Tyrion and his father Tywin. Towards the end of series one and then in episode nine Tywin explains to Tyrion he's going to have to lead the battle. Jaime is a knight of series one. And then in episode nine, Tywin explains to Tyrion he's going to have to lead the battle. Jaime is a knight of the realm. Tyrion's not really been on the battlefield and he's certainly not excelled as a fighter. And he said, surely there are other ways to have me killed that would be less detrimental to the war effort.

He can hear how much of an outsider, how expendable he feels when he told he'd be on the front line. I mean, miraculously, he survives that battle because he's knocked over by a horse and he spends most of the battle unconscious, I mean, in a typical Tyrion way. But it's a problematic relationship, that one. And probably the most stark, excuse the pun, the most stark example of the rejection that Tyrion feels, like his dad has just got no time for him at all, not even a kind word, you know. Jaime might sugarcoat things slightly, his

dad's got no interest in doing that whatsoever. But for somebody who's felt all of this rejection and hate and disgust at his very existence, how is Tyrion the most affable and reasonable character? He's a great diplomat. He becomes a great diplomat. And finally, all of that pays off because Tyrion, you can see the pride that he feels when he's asked to act as Hand of the King. Because eventually, his father does see him and reward him.

I'm thinking of Hand of the King as right-hand man spin doctor, special advisor. Would you? Yeah, like Consigliere and the Mafia. Yeah. So whilst his father is to be otherwise engaged fighting Robb Stark's growing army, and Jamie is captured by the Starks, Tyrion has to grow into this role and responsibility. And he even declares that he enjoys this. I'm good at this. It's like he's found his calling. I'm good at this. It's like he's found his calling. I'm good at this. Very well done. And it is a role of wheeling and dealing and basically saving Joffrey's ass. By episode 10, we see the potential for them to have

a closer bond, definitely. I think as Tywin realizes Tyrion's potential, there's a moment even where you do see Charles, Charles Dance, I think plays it well, sort of softens slightly towards Tyrion. Yeah. And there's pride for Tyrion about being back in the inner circle of his family. It's kind of cemented at the start of season two. Your father has named Lord Tyrion to serve as hand in his stead while he fights. Out!

All of you out! I would like to know how you tricked father into this. If I were capable of tricking father, I'd be emperor of the world by now. You brought this on yourself. I've done nothing. Quite right, you did nothing. When your son called for Ned Stark's head, now the entire North has risen up against us.

I tried to stop it. Did you? You failed. That bit of theater will haunt our family for a generation. Robb Stark is a child. Who's won every battle he's fought. Do you understand we're losing the war? What do you know about warfare? Nothing. But I know people. And I know that our enemies hate each other almost as much as they hate us.

Yeah, that's the rub of it, isn't it? He's totally willing to admit he knows nothing about these things that they take so much pride in, like how many people they killed, the land that they've stolen. He doesn't know, it's not in his will house. But he's also happy to be the bad object, like he knows they are hated, and he kind of, he's using that.

Whereas I think Cersei would like to live in some world where she doesn't see that. Yeah. And she's worshipped even by the people that she's enslaved or committed genocide against. Do you know what I mean? She's got that image of the Queen. He's definitely had to negotiate others around him and move in a different way. You're absolutely right. He just hasn't had that power. And so he's had to kind of work the environment and the family landscape, if you like, in

a different way. And understanding people is his great strength. He's gone from disappointing child to hand of the king in place of his father. And there, as we heard, Cersei's messed up. Will that be the end of her? She'll be back. Absolutely. Let's dig into a little bit more how Tyrion has been treated so profoundly differently to his siblings. It's different in all its many guises here, isn't it? And we see how his difference and the way in which he's had to navigate his environment differently to his siblings has kind of led him to be empathetic to those considered to be differently able to him. So we also see what it's like

to be around disability, if that's a word that they might use in the Lannister family. I mean, I really feel like there's a medieval era mentality to difference in gender and sexuality, not sex per se, but certainly sexuality. This is the backdrop to how we're kind of thinking about different... And then along comes someone with dwarfism. It's like... I mean, I think we see the empathy that Tyrion feels for others. Again, when the Stark's son Bran, who's lost his legs having been pushed from the tower by Jaime, that empathy feels immediate with what's happened to Bran.

Do you like to ride, Bran? By Jamie, that empathy feels immediate with what's happened to Bran. Do you like to ride, Bran? Yes. Well, I mean, I did like to. The boy has lost the use of his legs. What of it? With the right horse and saddle, even a cripple can ride. I'm not a cripple. Then I'm not a dwarf. My father will rejoice to hear it. I have a gift for you. Give that to your saddler. He'll provide the rest.

You must shape the horse to the rider. Start with a yearling and teach her to respond to the reins and to the boy's voice. Will I really be able to ride? You will. On horseback you'll be as tall as any of them. Is this some kind of trick? Why do you want to help him? I have a tender spot in my heart for cripples, bastards and broken things. It's really interesting hearing that. Tyrion is like, you've got to shape the horse to the rider.

You can hear there. That's future thinking. How he's thinking differently. I wanted to say that Tyrion's height and his feeling about his stature would only come into the therapy room explicitly if he brought it. Yeah. So, and I'm not sure it's necessarily the first thing you talk about.

We might get curious about his experience of the world, his awareness of his own experience. And then we may talk about how it is for him to navigate the world and the environment and the expectations and how he meets them or not, which might get us into that territory and whether he feels accepted or not. So it's really, it would start from his own feelings about difference and how society might find him unacceptable. That we would reflect on because I mean, often he is wielding his differences as a superpower and it kind of demonstrates the clip. What we've been talking about demonstrates the complex landscape because and how we might be exploring that in a therapeutic relationship

all at the same time. We're working with the intra-psychic. So that's within your own head, how you might be viewing the world from within. So you know we've talked about object relations and how you make sense of the world. That's your intra-psychic world. We'd be thinking about the interpersonal that happens outside and at the same time, the kind of societal, socio-environmental. But in Tyrion's case, we might be thinking about how society views those with a particular difference. And then also as a therapist or therapists, how we might inadvertently bring unhelpful societal views or responses into the room, because you'd also, as ever, you're kind of looking out for counter transference. And I've talked before about how useful it is to know some of your stuff, your own judgements that you make about the world and to be able to include those in the space.

And I suppose to not fear getting it wrong must be quite important. Exactly that. The kind of shame that might come with the idea of getting it wrong. It's like getting it wrong is part of perhaps finally meeting somebody. I mean, outside of the Game of Thrones world, there's a dominant Western world medical model, which kind of infers that someone with a disability in this case dwarfism might have something wrong with them. Certainly in the past, that was sort of what we've referred to here as well as less than and therefore they might need to go through a process of loss adjustment or acceptance because that's what they're calling the norm and obviously this is different from it and the focus on the person with disability being fixed or encouraged to fit into the non-disabled world. So this is

what Tyrion's kind of referring to as you ought to fit the horse to the rider. I'm not going to be bound by what you think is possible because you're sitting there the horse to the rider. I'm not going to be bound by what you think is possible because you're sitting there looking at Bran now thinking he can't possibly ride a horse. He doesn't have the use of his legs. Tyrion's looked at it in a completely different way. But he also, he does actually use actual violence himself sometimes. I mean, we got, I teased it earlier. We got to talk about the slap. Okay. Because in episode two, he slaps his nephew slash brother Joffrey. Didn't you feel, I find him family-trying Game of Thrones.

Slaps Joffrey around the face in probably the first moment that got me sort of like out of my seat cheering watching Game of Thrones because Joffrey's so insufferable. So he's the heir to the throne. He slaps him for not being compassionate enough to Lady Stark, whose son Bran is in the coma that we referenced earlier. Tywin's the only one in the Lannister clan who is most overtly prepared to call out Joffrey. To try and mitigate and calm, what we might call his sociopathic nature, but just generally, as he said, he's an insufferable character.

He doesn't really, you don't sense that he's had many boundaries put in for him. And he is lauded as this king figure. You know, he's heir to the throne while Robert Baratheon is still around. He then becomes king, which is a terrifying prospect. And Cersei sort of worships the ground he walks on, throws rose petals down at his feet. And Tyrion slaps him in his face three times. And I love that Joffrey says you can't and Tyrion evidently is like, that doesn't bother me in the slightest, she's my sister. I mean, I also feel it might have something to do with him feeling more powerful, older and more experienced than Joffrey, but he, like you say, is good uncleing. He's trying to lay down some framework by which Joffrey can see how, what might be expected

of him, certainly if he's going to take on the role of king. In this kind of a world where fighting and winning, that means power, right? His approach is so different. He's got to be comfortable with being this outsider in its entirety because no matter how powerful he gets, that's never going to change. I mean, do you mean that he's not going to be fighting in the knightly way that Jaime is? No, I think deep down he knows that will never happen. And here we're back to the landscape, aren't we? And we're looking at it, the societal expectation of a king.

Because if we look at other skills that Tyrion certainly practices and manages to enhance, is something like reading. Or, you know, he's much more knowledgeable than either of his siblings. Reading and travel. He's like, he's met so many different types of people. He's not only a good judge of character, he also is not a judge. You know what I mean? He's not someone who's going to judge you based on this one thing. So kings have to be kingly. They have to have this blood on their hands and queens have to be equally merciless. You know, maybe

they're not on the battlefield, but when they are queen, they're going to have to have this blood on their hands and queens have to be equally merciless. You know, maybe they're not on the battlefield, but when they are queen, they're going to have to chop some heads off. And his approach of like, what happens if you understand the person? Couldn't you have even more power than just like, oh, fear me. You really see that in series two, when he becomes, he's handed the king and he's slowly revealing just how powerful he can be as he becomes more adept at the wheeling and dealing that's necessary for that role. I mean, in court as an example, he's merciless at sniffing out a mole at the small King's council, offering all the members of the small King's council a chance to marry off the Queen's only daughter. But don't tell the Queen. So I mean, as a viewer, as a viewer, the penny finally drops that, oh,

well, she can't be married to all those people. There's something else going on here. And it's Tyrion knowing full well that he will sniff out the mole because that person will go straight back to the queen and Cersei will be on him, which is in fact how it pans out. And I mean, he's had to develop other skills, his wit, his intelligence, his charm, his cunning, his ruthlessness, his ability to shock. He does all of those in abundance. But it's survival for Tyrion. He's realized that's how he's going to survive and probably how he's survived into adulthood. right at the start, you're waving his flag man. Okay, well after the break, let's look at Tyrion's vulnerability and why he has more empathy than the rest of the Lannisters put together. Multi-generational. So we'll see you after these messages, unless you're a shrinker of course, or a subscriber to the

take. In which case, no ads. Boom. Well, now this episode is brought to you by MUBI, a curated streaming service dedicated to elevating great cinema. MUBI is the place to discover ambitious films by visionary filmmakers, all carefully handpicked by real people who really know movies. Mark, what's coming up in July on Mubi? Well, Mubi have a new series dedicated to one of our favourite actors, Lea Sardou. It's streaming on Mubi UK from July the 12th. You can dive into some great performances by her. They've got Crimes of the Future, The Feature from David Cronenberg from 2022. That's streaming on Mubi UK from July the 12th. The Beast, the Bertram Bonello film in which she co-stars

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that's better h-e-l-p dot com slash curmode. All right we are back. The filth. So it's a big part of Tyrion's persona isn't it? The brashness. I mean our first meeting with Tyrion episode one, we are back. The filth. So it's a big part of Tyrion's persona, isn't it? The brashness. I mean, our first meeting with Tyrion in episode one, we see him drinking in a brothel. The whole first episode is littered with sexual innuendos from him being sexually avert at every opportunity. Tyrion seems to debase himself a lot like that and also seeks out lots of one-on-one company, which feels like it's almost therapeutic in

a way. So I mean, he does that with the sex workers he meets, the one sex worker actually, the one he falls in love with, and with Bron, who he travels with. And he obviously he's kind of, I mean, the beginning of that relationship is lovely. And we referenced it earlier, where basically sort of asks for someone to stand up for him and Bron is the one who steps in and their relationship is kind of wonderful to look at. And this seems to give him confidence while he's away from his family and allow him to grow into himself. Do you know, it kind of got me thinking about impotence. Game of Thrones real men are warriors,

fighters, physically strong. So I imagine bedding women was part of the image of strength and virility. We could get curious if Tyrion's use of language is about emphasizing his virility to others and compensating for perhaps the feeling of being less than physically. And part of his overall bravado, another part of his shield. The Queen has two brothers. There's the pretty one.

And there's the clever one. Hey, they call him the imp. I hear he hates that nickname. Oh, I hear he's more than earned it. I hear he's a drunken little lecher, prone to all manner of perversions. Clever girl. We've been expecting you Lord Tureen. So is it like the sort of Princess Margaret deal where she feels like she's got nothing to do so she might as well just be a hedonist? He is a bit lost at this stage.

So what else is there for him to do but to play up the idea of being a rich, provocative Lannister who can fashion you with gold at every turn. Because he's never going to be given a job in his eyes of any real worth. In his view, exactly. That's where he's headed because Cersei is queen, Jaime is knight. Where do I fit in as the kind of... Tywin's Tywin. Yeah. I mean, I think it would also be good to reflect with Tyrion his experience of the effect of his language on people and how he feels about his vulgarity. Because again,

we'll only come into the therapy really, his use of language, if he brought it up. Because it also might keep people at a distance. I think it's problematic if people are avoiding you or you're having trouble making lasting relationships, which we might think with Tyrion, although we do see him eventually fall in love. Yeah, and he's been in love before. And then if you feel like once he's been given the job as King's Hand by his father and he's fallen for his new love, I get the impression he's more respectful of the women around him. Certainly that feels like it belongs at the beginning of series one. What do you think?

Yeah, it could be that he wants to shock people and by turns make them laugh and that's his way of feeling this sense of belonging. In episode six in the first series, he escapes being put to death because he just makes a mockery of the trial by confessing his sins. So he sets everybody up to hear that he's, you know, committed this heinous crime. But when he lists the sins, I mean, it's classic. It's a classic GOT moment, I think. When I was seven, I saw a servant girl bathing in the river. I stole her robe.

She was forced to return to the castle, naked and in tears. I closed my eyes, I could still see her tits bouncing. And that's not the half of that speech, really. No, that speech is incredible. It's one of those moments, if you're watching along with us and you haven't reached that bit yet, wait for that and if you have I think you'll know what we're talking about. It's incredible and of course it's a very, it's where we can see Tyrion use his humour to great effect.

With an audience, it's perfect. A whole court. Performing. It's just that, that's his dream role. We're going to talk a bit more about his sense of humour actually after some words from a sponsor. Unless you're a shrinker, of course, in which case, hold the line, call and we'll be back very soon. Payton, it's happening.

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and almost anybody else in Westeros really. There's not another character like I think Varys comes close in it. Yeah and you know I think you feel for Jon, but because he knows nothing, he's hard to get close to. Not as witty as Tyrion. I mean, maybe he's been left to say... Yeah, the wit of wit is not really his bad. A lot of Tyrion's humour is based around his drinking or being self-depreciating and using

humour to break tension, of course, or using humour as a diversion to save his skin. Yeah. I am Tyrion, son of Tywin of Clan Lannister. How would you like to die, Tyrion, son of Tywin of Clan Lannister. How would you like to die, Tyrion, son of Tywin? In my own bed, at the age of 80, with a belly full of wine and a girl's mouth around my c**k. My parents are going to be listening to this show. Tyrion, I mean, he does like to mesh funny and vulgar.

Again, we might be exploring this use of humor because as you said, he'd mean, he does like to mesh funny and vulgar. Again, we might be exploring this use of humor because as you said, he probably, he might come in and proposition a therapist. He would almost certainly be using humor probably to keep people at a distance or to avoid going to more vulnerable places. But obviously that's how he's used his humor. It's not about saying that we can't be humorous, but certainly noticing with people when they're funny, but there's something that is funny necessarily. It can be quite revealing because the humor doesn't match the emotion. And that might be something that would be useful to think about with someone because it then does point to what am I finding difficult to get close to here?

What is the thing with Tyrion? Why is he holding the pain? The pain, the suffering, the outsider-ness, the feeling that he doesn't belong. It's a combination of all of these things. Yeah. Also, he's been a victim of shit humor. So if you think back to the situation, we see him falling over Shay, the sex worker, but this has happened before, but it was part of an elaborate ruse that his brother was involved in because they thought it was funny.

But again, I have this sense that that relates to the projection of you can hold all the bad stuff for us and only it kind of increases the othering that happens around Tyrion because it's safer than coming face to face with your own vulnerability. First my father had Jaime tell me the truth. The girl was a whore, you see. Jaime had arranged the whole thing. The road, the rapers, all of it.

He thought it was time I had a woman. After my brother confessed, my father brought in my wife and gave her to his guards. He paid her well, silver for each man. How many whores command that kind of price? He brought me into the barracks and made me watch. By the end, she had so much silver that the coins were slipping through her fingers and rolling onto the floor. Do you find, I find some of those more misogynistic moments really difficult to listen to.

And you can really hear the cruelty wielded by his family in the name of, well, we thought that you should come of age or that you should have a woman or that you should find a part of yourself. I think it's just like an extreme version of what I imagine they were doing to him from when he was a lot younger than 16. I mean, it's really revealing about how he's the way that he is, how he's been treated, maltreated, says more about his family constellation, what it might take to survive within the Lannister family.

Can you define family constellation? We probably need a whole program and we might do a constellation with a family. But I think, to say briefly, it's where it fits into the family and how people are constellated around you in your family environment. So you might work with people to see what it feels like to, where you might place the other family members in a room around you in terms of how close you feel to them, whether

they're facing you turning away, and therefore where you are in relation to the rest of your family members, and it can be quite emotive to think about that in that way. Does that explain a little bit? Yeah, it does, it does. I've never heard that phrase before, but that's very interesting. How does it feel to be- Think about the dynamics within a family, even if you all live in the same house.

And what it feels like to be the third of three children to have lost their mother birthing him, what it feels like to be in the presence of his father. Yeah. And where he'd place his siblings in relation to his father, all of that. I mean, that sense of where he is in the family is underlying again in series two. Cersei is furious with him sending her only daughter off to secure more ships. Oh yeah. For the Lannister army to defend King's Landing. And she knows the way to hurt Tyrion is to hurt those he loves, which I guess they found out with the awful joke they played on him that we've just heard.

He is completely surrounded by people who either hate him, ridicule him, wish him harm or just don't want anything good to happen for him. Which is kind of why Shay, the sex worker we mentioned before, is so important for him. He's building something with her, even though I think he's smart enough to know there's a day's going to come where he's going to have to leave her or be cruel in some way. Well, we know that she was initially, Tywin told him not to take her to King's Landing and Tyrion completely just shuns that idea because he is falling in love with her, but he does have to keep her hidden.

So I think you're right. He said, and this is where it feels really difficult because it doesn't feel like that can, that has any life in it or longevity. And that must be for him being a deep thinker, it must feel like a metaphor for his entire life. That there's no point in trying to seek the happiness that every human being should have the right to because it's going to be taken away from him horribly in the way that it always has because he's this freak of nature that doesn't belong anywhere. Well, Shay really sees him.

freak of nature that doesn't belong anywhere. Well, Shay really sees him. Yeah, she does. And she offers him a way out. And it's really, it would be interesting to reflect with Tyrion why he chooses to stay in King's Landing because she says, let's just run away. Let's go to the beach, hang out. And you can kind of imagine Tyrion sort of living that life. We sort of see him in that carefree way at the beginning

of series one. But by the time he's been hand of the king and had a bit more of that taste of power and found a role for himself within the family, he can't leave. So it's a real push pull for him. And that would need some reflecting on and I suppose his feelings about that to be expressed. Otherwise, we'd end up in an either or thinking kind of pattern which can blind people to the other possibilities. It's much more nuanced. We see the impact of having to keep his true love hidden, that sort of push pull. I mean I say it is love for his family but he desperately wants their

acceptance and to feel something differently. And I suppose we could get curious with him about what it's like, but that's not forthcoming in the way that he'd like and how there might be disappointment around that. I imagine a complete adventure with Tyrion in therapy. It would be. Shock tactics, charm, wit, initially protecting his vulnerability and pain, and then his ability to reflect kicking in. It'd be the amazing see what

would be possible. Yeah so who are we looking forward to next week? It's another episode of Shrink the Inbox. Oh wicked. We have got a show that's full of surprises. We want to hear your theories as well we don't hold all the cards shrink the box at sonymusic.com we'd be stoked if you could follow us on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Amazon music, wherever you prefer to get your pods, get all the new apps, any you've missed, spread the word so we can make more of these, send a link to your mates, ask them to follow, leave us a review if you want.

I'm not gonna order you around. Or here's another option, if you wanna be a shrinker, that's what we're calling you guys, yeah. I hope you like that. To get Shrink the Box without the ads, you just subscribe to Extra Takes because then you get the ad free episodes from Kermit and Mayo's take and access to all their weekly extra episodes as well. You can start a free trial by clicking try free at the top of the Shrink the Box show page on Apple Podcasts or by visiting extra takes.com. Can we as ever say thank you to our production team, production management, Lily Hambly, the assistant producer, Scarlett O'Malley, studio engineers, Matthias Torres-Solo, the

mix engineer, Josh Gibbs, senior producer, Selena Ream, and executive producer is Simon Hall. All right, well until then. See you then. Ta-da.