Kermode & Mayo’s Take - Warfare with Alex Garland & Ray Mendoza

Episode Date: April 17, 2025

Vanguardistas have more fun—so if you don’t already subscribe to the podcast, join the Vanguard today via Apple Podcasts or extratakes.com for non-fruit-related devices. In return you’ll get a whole extra Take 2 alongside Take 1 every week, with bonus reviews, more viewing recommendations from the Good Doctors and whole bonus episodes just for you. And if you’re already a Vanguardista, we salute you. ‘Warfare’ co-directors Alex Garland and Ray Mendoza join us this week to talk about the astonishing new film that aims to put modern conflict onscreen in the most authentic way possible. With an ensemble cast of soldiers featuring Will Poulter, Cosmo Jarvis, Kit Connor, and Joseph Quinn, the film’s events are based on the real wartime experiences of Mendoza (who is played by D'Pharaoh Woon-A-Tai). He’s a former Navy SEAL and Iraq veteran who has used his expertise to advise filmmakers presenting war onscreen, including Garland on ‘Civil War’. Now he’s collaborating with Garland again to tell his own story and that of his colleagues in this truly powerful film. Plus we’ve got reviews of ‘The Penguin Lessons’—the true story of an English teacher in turbulent 1970s South America who unexpectedly befriends the waddling creature of the film’s title, after rescuing it from an oil slick—and ‘Blue Road’, the literary doc on the colourful life of Irish writer Edna O’Brien. Don’t miss an Easter treat in the Laughter Lift this week too... Timecodes (for Vanguardistas listening ad-free): The Penguin Lessons: 08:54 Alex Garland and Ray Mendoza Interview: 29:44 Warfare Review: 43:30 Laughter Lift Easter Special: 57:48 Blue Road: The Edna O’Brien Story: 1:00:39 You can contact the show by emailing [e-mail] or you can find us on social media, @KermodeandMayo Please take our survey and help shape the future of our show: https://www.kermodeandmayo.com/survey EXCLUSIVE NordVPN Deal ➼ https://nordvpn.com/take Try it risk-free now with a 30-day money-back guarantee! A Sony Music Entertainment production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts and follow us @sonypodcasts To advertise on this show contact: [e-mail] And to find out more about Sony’s new show Origins with Cush Jumbo, click here Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey Mark, I can't believe they've remade Snow White. What a classic, the Dark Forest sequence. Scarier than anything in the exorcist. Scard me for life. Not as scary as the Dark Web, however, but luckily you can stay safe from all the spooky stuff lurking there with NordVPN. It will protect you online with encryption and alerts to guard against hackers. No more poison apples then, or dodgy fishing pages.

Will it make me the fairest of them all? Well it can let you switch your virtual location in a hundred and eleven different countries so you can watch movies from all over the world. That's close enough. Oh hey I can even download the NordVPN app for an extra layer of protection on my phone. That'll be handy for online banking. That's right. Unwrap a huge discount on NordVPN by heading to NordVPN.com slash take. Plus, with our link, you'll get an extra four months free on the two-year plan and it's risk-free with Nord's 30-day money back guarantee. Check the link in the description. Hello, Simon Mayo here.

And Mark Cumbert here. Before we begin, a quick reminder that you can become a Vanguard Easter and get an extra episode every Thursday. Including bonus reviews, extra viewing suggestions, viewing recommendations at home and in cinemas, plus your film and non-film questions answered as best we can in Questions Shmestians. You can get all that extra stuff via Apple podcasts or head head to extra takes.com for non-fruit related devices. There's never been a better time to become a Vanguard Easter. Free offer now available wherever you get your podcasts.

And if you're already a Vanguard Easter, we salute you. If we could get a proper voiceover guide to do previously on Code of the Moon, that would be, that's a really, really good idea. Previously on, because it's not, because the trailer voiceover of In a World, it's not that because that's the, the previous series always has to be, you know, previously on Twin Peaks. Yeah, but now it's usually one of the actors in the show and they alternate. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Quite often it's one of the actors in the show that says previously on Succession or previously on Bosch or whatever it is. So that would be, so one of us, therefore

that's good. This is more work for us. So one of us can say previously on Kermade and Mayo and then we can do all kinds of nonsense. Fantastic. Previously on Kermade and Mayo and then we can do all kinds of nonsense. Fantastic. Previously on Kermade and Mayo. Okay, it's a whole new spin-off series, I think. So Bosch Legacy is this series where they've got Harry Bosch, the Michael Connelly character, but it's another way of telling the same stories but with a bigger cast. I think what we need is take colon legacy. Jason Vale Legacy.

Jason Vale And then that's a whole new branch. I'm taking the corporate dollar here. Take legacy. This is very good. Anyway, before we get to take legacy, take current league. What are you up to? Jason Vale Well, tons of stuff on this show. We have reviews of Penguin Lessons, which is the new Steve Coogan film,

which is basically inspired by a true story. We have Blue Road, the Edward O'Brien story, which is actually a true story. And then we have Warfare, a remarkable film with our special guests. Alex Garland and Ray Mendoza. Alex Garland, who is no stranger to this show. In fact, he was on for Civil War not so long ago. In fact, he says at the start of the interview, I think probably he'll be chopped off. He says, yes, hello Simon, we've done an interview before. And I was thinking, yep, I do remember. Yeah. Well, Civil War was your favourite film of that year. Yeah, joint equal with Conclave. That's right. favourite film of that period. Yeah, Joint Equal with Conclave.

Yeah, that's right. An interesting pairing. Also Ray Mendoza, who is the former Navy SEAL, now Hollywood Advisor on Military Things, and they have co-written and co-directed Warfare. It's a fairly astonishing project and you will hear them talk about it later. Plus, we're going to be looking at the best and worst of the upcoming streaming releases for the next couple of weeks, covering the rest of April and into May. That and all the other extra stuff that you get every Thursday and indeed the whole back catalog of bonus joy, which I'm now going to call take legacy.

That's what the back catalog is. It's not a back catalog, which sounds very kind of unnecessary and a little bit literary. Back catalog sounds like something that just arrives in the post, doesn't it? What is that? How is your back catalog? Yeah, exactly. It's the Argus catalog, there's the back catalog, but then there's Take Legacy. Email from John here, correspondence at codemo.com. We haven't had an email about Muriel's wedding for a while. Mark and Simon, I'm going to try and make this short and sweet. Can I say no one ever does that at the start? I'm going to try and make this incredibly lengthy and give the redactor something to redact.

30 years ago, I dragged my brother to a showcase cinema in Birmingham to see Muriel's wedding. I can't remember exactly what his reaction was to the film, but I don't think he was terribly amused. I've recently been back to see the film and thoroughly enjoyed it even more this time around. Tony Collette is fabulous, in fact, and so are all the cast. 30 years later, my brother is married with three kids and I'm secretly arranging with his wife him to see it again in Brighton. So finally, my point, Mr. Kermode, is there any chance you could fit in a screening and give us your opinion 30 years on? I mean, I don't know, you're not a performing monkey.

Can I tell you, this is actually quite odd, because I have watched Muriel's wedding in the fairly recent past, because I do, I do show at the BFI in which I get people and filmmakers to talk about things that really influenced them. And somebody was talking about Muriel's Wedding as an influential film. And weirdly enough, here's the thing I remember about it, because as I remember, we did Muriel's Wedding as a film of the month at Radio One.

The two things about it that are really interesting, the first thing is, it's a lot darker than you think it is or than you remember it is. Or more specifically, it's a lot darker than the publicity lets you think it is. So very good performances and that central story about the relationship between the two women is fantastic. And the bit when they do the advertising is just astonishing. And actually we showed that in the NFT on the big screen and it was fantastic. But the story about what happened in New Year's wedding is when it got made.

I mean, obviously that, you know, that it is, it's satirical and funny and comedic, but it, but it is tragicomic. There is a lot of tragedy in the comedy. And then when it was picked up, picked up by the international distributors, they decided that the way to market it was to market it as simply a feel-good comedy. The mirror's wedding poster was pink, pink, pink, pink, pink, pink, and a picture of her smiling and the confetti in the air. Of course, there's the sugar baby love thing and all that. Then when the film first came out here,

people were surprised that the film wasn't the film that had been marketed. And a friend of mine, a very good friend of mine, Paul Simpson wrote a book about, I think this was the book about satire. And actually he, and I contributed to it in a very, very small way, because we had a conversation about the way in which they had

remarketed the film from the sort of from the dark edges that it had into something that was altogether more fluffy. And then when people saw it, they were surprised. So I went back and saw it again, after all this time, having already gone through this process. And the really weird thing is, it is exactly the film I remember, because I remember seeing it before I saw the poster and I saw it. I thought that's interesting and it's funny and it's strange, but there's bits of it, a very, very, you know, it's got that kind of antipathy and edge to it.

And then, and then seeing the poster and going, the poster just makes it look like bubble gum Barbie. And I don't get that. And I thought that when I saw it, I saw it again, I think it's a very fine film, Tony Collette's performance, actually both the scent performances are great, but there is a real sort of brooding darkness there and definitely when it came out in the UK there was an absolute disparity. This reminds me of the Slumdog Millionaire poster in which it's a picture of them smiling whilst being showered in money. And that was the thing that led to the phrase, your phrase, there's a lot of slumdog before the million. Yeah. In fact, I'd just written down slumdog M. I just wrote that down while you were talking.

Yeah, well, that was exacerbated by the fact that it said the feel good movie of the year. That was the quote. And then you go back and watch it and you remember the good stuff. It is just like Shawshank. You remember how good you felt at the end of it, but you forget how like in Shawshank, the prison scenes are really grim. It really is tough. There's a lot of stuff going on in Mira's wedding that is not pink and fluffy. I mean, right at the heart, like I said, it is a tragedy comedy in the best sense, but it is a very fine tragedy comedy and it is very well played, but it's a lot edgier than people remember.

I think parenting does an awful lot of this when you go back and you watch, oh right, just watch, come on everybody, watch this. I remember this, it's fantastic. Which for me was movies like Ghostbusters, right? Which you remember going to see as a teenager or 20 something, whatever. Then you watch it and then you go, oh, okay, that's not funny. No, that's actually, that's quite inappropriate. Actually, should we just not watch this? And we move on. That's what it does to you. Anyway, thank you very much. So there you go. You wanted a take on

Murals wedding. That's exactly what you got. So that's a lovely thing. But remember, Mark is not a performing monkey, even though it's quite fun. Correspondence at Kermit and Mayor.com. Right. Let's talk about penguins, but not the ones you put tariffs on. Yes. This is my performing monkey thing. So The Penguin Lessons, which is the new Steve Coogan film. This is inspired by a true story. It's directed by Peter Catania, who's probably best known for Full Monty, also made Lucky Break and then more recently made Military Wives, which again was a true story to which this kind of owes a stylistic debate in as much as it's, you know, it's a true story with some grit in it, but it's also with kind of softer edges. Adapted from a memoir by Tom Michelle, by Jeff Pope, who of course has written for films with

Steve Coogan before, many of those based on true stories, Philomena, Stan and Ollie. So, 70s Argentina, Isabel Peron is on the way out, bad stuff happening, Steve Coogan's teacher, Tom, is on the way into this private school where he's going to be teaching the kids English. Jonathan Price is the avuncular, yet somewhat grumpy headmaster who tells him that the country is in chaos, but here in the school, they stay out of politics. It's all small p. They keep their head down. This is something that Tom is very, very happy to do initially. There is also working in the school Sophia, who Tom overhears having a political with a capital P discussion with someone. He resolves not to speak of it, but he's staying out of the

way. He says, okay, fine, this politics going on, I'm not going to get involved in them. Then one day he's on a beach with a woman who he's trying to impress and they discover a penguin, or a whole bunch of penguins caught in an oil slick. And he says, well, there's nothing we can do. And one of them is still alive. She says, oh, no, one of the penguins is still alive. He says, well, it's terribly sad. It's actually very funny because this is one of the things that Steve Coogan does very well, because he does that kind of slightly cynical, slightly unpleasant character, does it very well. And he goes, well, there's nothing we can do. What can one person do? She says, well, you could help the penguin. So they get the penguin. He takes the penguin.

He takes the penguin back to his hotel room. He washes the penguin, you know, all down, and he thinks he's going to be somehow rewarded for all this. Turns out that's not the case at all. One thing leads to another, and the Penguin brings about changes in the character. Anyway, here's a clip from the Penguin lessons. Welcome to Buenos Aires. Anything to declare? Uh, no.

Stop, sir. What is in your bag? Show me now. Where is he from? Is he your pet? I rescued him from an oil slick. And now he thinks he's my friend, but he's not my friend. Why did you save his life? I was trying to impress a woman I wanted to sleep with.

Go and be free in the sea. Go and be free in the sea. So, I mean, you can say that I'd never that's penguin noise, because it says here on the piece of paper pause and then penguin noise. Yeah, that's the sound they make. Apparently so. Yes. But I think the thing about that trailer is you get a sense from it of exactly the tone of the film, you know, of the film. He says he's my friend, but he's not my friend. So he doesn't want to have the penguin, but then he has the

penguin. And then of course the penguin starts bringing out the softer side of him. He starts sharing his thoughts with the penguin. He talks to the penguin. And in fact, actually everyone who finds themselves in the company of the penguin talks to the penguin. The people who are caretaking the school, they find the penguin in his room and they, what's going on? But then they start to embrace the penguin. Then he starts bringing the penguin into the class. And it also brings out this other side of him,

which is he sort of starts to become aware of politics because of what's happening with people that he knows and everything that's happening around him on the street. And then he starts teaching the kids poetry that has a political edge to it, that has perhaps got a thing about, you know, dictatorships and evil rulers. And slowly he starts to change. And he realizes that unlike what he thought at the beginning, what can one man do? How can one man change anything, particularly in the basis of the penguin, that in fact, in this, as in life in general,

you can do something. Now, I saw an interview with Steve Coogan in which he said, when he was first asked about this story by Jeff Pope, he said he thought it sounded a little too cute for him. But Jeff Pope said, no, no, no, it's interesting, find out more about it. And they work together. And apparently, in the book, there is an internal penguin monologue narration. I haven't read the book, I confess I haven't read the book. But in the film, what it does is there is a sort of, I mean, the Coogan character when we first meet him is apparently Tom Michelle's

always been a very nice guy. When we first meet the Tom Michelle as played by Steve Coogan in the film, he's Steve Coogan. He's basically doing that thing that he does about, you know, cynical and he's sort of self-centered. I'm not saying Steve Coogan is those things, but that's the thing, those are the characters that he traditionally plays.

And then during the course of the narrative, he goes from being somebody who is self-centered and cynical and an island unto themselves into somebody who is more open, who learns the Penguin lessons. Now, I have to say, it's hard to imagine anyone other than Steve Coogan getting away with this because if you didn't have that edge to it, the drama would be just cutesy and soppy and sentimental and it's, oh look, the penguin's making everyone nicer. I mean, bear in mind, when you think about the political situation, when this is set, you know, in Arthur, there's people being disappeared off

the streets, there's a point in which his character is arrested and then we see him the morning after, you know, covered in bruises and somebody. And somebody says, what happened to you? He says, he makes a joke about, yeah, you should have seen the other guy. But there are characters who were being picked up off the streets and disappeared and not seen. And considering all that stuff is the backdrop, this is still very vanilla. It's still very, very gentle Wednesday afternoon viewing. But because it has Steve Coogan in the middle of it, it has a bit of bite because it is impossible for Steve Coogan to do anything that doesn't. Now, if you think about the other feature projects that he's been involved in, there's been a similar sort of tonal thing quite often about telling stories that involve a degree,

you take a real story to a degree of dramatic invention, but then make it into something which is actually very pleasantly watchable. I was in, I'm wearing the New England Filmhouse t-shirt, I was in the local art house cinema just the other night, and talking about how the Penguin Lessons will go down, and their expectation was it would go down very well because it's very much a kind of, it's a crowd pleasing film. It is very soft. It is very much got, I mean, yes, it's taking place at a time of political turmoil and yes, there is a backdrop of oppression and violence and, you know, awful horror.

That is not the film. The film is The Penguin Lessons and the film is about how somebody sort of falls for a penguin, who for most of the film, Simon, is perfectly fine. Simon Lipsetre Yes. Angus I kind of liked it. And I think the reason it gets away with it is because Steve Coogan brings an edge to the story that otherwise it would just have been too cute. I think I'm quite intrigued by the idea of seeing Steve Coogan play up against Colin Farrell's Penguin because that strikes me as possibly box office gold. Are you saying it's not bad? Now, we're not going to bother with the chart this week because we've got lots of correspondence about last week's releases.

So let's go with Minecraft. I do think when you were introducing Minecraft, and it did make me think it's one of the most kind of critic proof movies because everyone is going, when they review again, they say, well, it's a Minecraft movie, but it's just like this overwhelming flood. The only thing that was remarkable was the fact that they didn't have a national pressure. They did have, I said, they had the Sunday morning screenings and those are things in which, because Sunday kids will take their parents along, critics will take their kids along.

So essentially what the distributors were saying was, we only really want critics to see this if they see it with kids, because otherwise they will have no idea what's going on. Okay, well fair enough. And someone who's picked up on that, Ross Williams Gick. Thank you Ross. Dear Steven Gargar, LTL MTE. Just wanted to get in contact regarding the latest Jack Black movie on our screens. I went with three of my children to a packed opening night in Cardiff. My kids had been pestering me to take them for some time, so they were pretty excited about it all. But having watched the movie, here are our thoughts. Evie, age 13, it was rather goofy and odd, but I enjoyed it six and a half out of 10. Ronnie, age 9. It was quite funny. The villager made me laugh the most.

9 out of 10. Poppy, age 7. I think it was strange and funny because of the way it looked. 9.5 out of 10. Ross, 40 and a third. It was a complete mess. The characters were annoying and it failed the six laugh test. 3 out of 10. Although that does give a family average score of 7 out of 10 and considering Ronnie and Poppy have not stopped talking about it since viewing, I can see it doing well with its target audience. But on another note, we all went to see Flow and the family average score was 8.8. We only went to see this off at the back of your recommendation, so thank you. Hello to Jason slash Jeremy up with engaging, exciting, and enthralling family cinema trips down with the usuals. But the great thing is about, I mean, I haven't

seen the Minecraft film, but if my kids were that age, I absolutely would be going. And if they're having an absolute hoot in the cinema, then that's enough. What's interesting about those emails, those responses were, it was quite good, a bit goofy, quite funny. I mean, I know then they said nine and a half out of 10, but that's not kids thinking it's brilliant and strange was one of the things. That's kids thinking, yeah, it was okay. And I think that's the thing with it. It's okay. The fact of the audience cheering when they recognize a Minecraft character because there were all the Minecraft Easter eggs in there. That's a slightly different kind of young rocky horror phenomenon. I think

the film is, it's a mess, but the Minecraft stuff is so popular. Minecraft is so deeply embedded in the popular culture, particularly the young popular culture, that it's a bit like a variety show when, and here's that thing that you love, and then everyone goes fine. Yes, and some of our previous correspondents in previous weeks has made the point that it's not a great movie,

but it's a fantastic cinematic experience, and the kids who go to see this will remember it, and they've had a great time. Anything that gets people into cinemas at the moment and I realized this so much more post pandemic, I mean boy we didn't know we were alive at one point and I now know so many more cinema managers than I did and you know the whole thing is anything that gets people into the cinemas that in itself is a thing, particularly at the moment, because if you're running an independent cinema, it's quite a hard time.

An email from Rob, as far as he's aware, the sole inhabitant of Goldsmith's Garderobe. Dear Flint and Steel, greetings, extremely long-time listener, multiple-time emergency mailer. This week has seen me visit my local. Big shout out to the Chester Picture House for not one, but two very memorable screenings. Firstly, for David Lynch's unforgettably disturbing and blackly hilarious Eraserhead, and just this evening with the whole family for a Minecraft movie. Not the most obvious double header you might think, but yes, for the sake of an email, I'm going to try and insist that they share something in common. Because I think in the last few days, I've experienced two of the most enthusiastic screenings of my life, albeit in very different ways.

The Lynch crowd, it has to be said, is a singular and deeply appreciative one. The code meticulously observed, the unsettling mood willfully lent into, and appreciative noises saved for a short spontaneous outburst of murmurings once the credits had rolled. A tip-top evening had by all and a dark and quirky cult classic getting a much deserved big screen outing. But this evening, well, where to begin? Not one person in the packed out Screen One had any intention of complying with the code, and it did not matter one jot. Lines already immortalised by What Must Qualify

as one of the most effective and successful marketing campaigns of recent years were joyously shouted out by the whole room. Laughter was full-throated, the mood raucous, and the whoops, cheers and applause liberal, loud and continuous. Honestly, I've been in more stage showings of Rocky Horror. It was a total joy. The movie is an absolute blast, chock full of references and Easter eggs for serious fans, but more than serviceable for the regular punter. And as far as Jack Black, well, the question is, how much more Jack Black could he possibly be? And the answer is, Black, well, the question is how much more Jack Black, Jack Black, possibly be in the answer is none.

I don't quite know how, but this is an Insta-Cult hit and it seems to have arrived fully formed. We had a riot. I expected to see one cult classic this week, but I wasn't ready for the second. Love the show, Steve. Love to all the usual. Thank you. There you go. Interesting. A cult hit. And if he says more staid versions of Roggi Hora, you will... So it's a party film. You'll go and see it. Apparently so. And like I said, this has already become quite divisive, but do you remember that there was quite a divisive thing about people singing along to the greatest showman.

There were people complaining that they'd gone to see the greatest showman and all they could hear was people in the audience singing. And it was like, well, I mean, I didn't like the greatest showman. We famously, both of you and I misjudged it. We got it spectacularly wrong. But it's kind of hard to say to people, don't sing along to The Greatest Showman because that's why they're going. So, right, next, The Return, Cactus on Blue Sky. I thoroughly enjoyed it. Excellent performances. Pacing was a little all over the place. I somehow failed to make the English Patient connection until this moment. Sadly, it's destined to forever be a pub trivia footnote in future discussions of the upcoming Nolan adaptation

of the same material." James Barnes says, lots of fun, very different idea of Odysseus's homecoming from the one I read at school, a point I think you may care to see about producer Jem. Then he dispatched his wife, Soutas, by telling them to go away. Now this is something completely different and clearly need to work on my dad bod, right, says James. Can I just say in this one, he does tell them to go away, just not with words. Is the dad bod he's referring to, is this Rafe? Yes. I mean, the thing is that Rafe is, when he washes up, he looks bedraggled. But he still looks pretty good.

Yeah. Particularly because most of him was hidden under his cardinal outfit when we saw him last. Well, his bishop is definitely... Sorry, I can't, I'm not even going to finish that. There you go, you spoiled it. The thing is with a Cardinal's outfit is that it does cover a multitude of sins. Whilst we're scrolling through movies and passing on your comments, Mr. Burton, Toby Jones was on the show recently, Phil Routh in McKinlith, exceptionally long-term listener, multiple-time emailer. On the subject of the quietly brilliant Mr Burton, which I saw for a second time last Friday at the wonderful Magic Lantern Cinema in Tawin after previously being fortunate enough to see an early screening.

One of the many things I found incredibly moving about the film is its subtle and complex depiction of a mentor-protege relationship, especially one focused on the arts and the working class. The young Richard Jenkins would undoubtedly never have gone on to become the world-bestriding Richard Burton without the care, attention, dedication, and passion of Philip Burton. For someone from his background to make this journey in the 1940s was something akin to becoming an astronaut, virtually impossible for all but the tiniest of minorities. I found the film especially moving and poignant since it mirrors much of my own experience.

As a working-class kid from West Yorkshire, I had virtually no hope of ever fulfilling my impossible dream of a career in the arts. But thanks to the dedication and passion of my mentor, Mike Ward, now in his late 80s, who founded the still running Actors Workshop Youth Theatre in Halifax, I was able to find a way first to Radar to train as an actor and then latterly to a career as a screenwriter. Mr. Burton is a much needed peer to mentors and the vital importance of the arts to all people from all backgrounds.

I salute the filmmakers and especially the writers for crafting a film that transcends the simple biopic origin story to become a love song to the arts, power to heal trauma and offer transcendence. May more people find their Philip Burton's and Mike Ward's to help them on their journey to careers in the arts. Lord knows we need them in these dark days. Love the show, Steve. Down with and up with and hello and all that. Phil Ralph and Ken Latham. Thank you. Thank you very much. I like that very much. Good. Very good.

Okay. We're going to be back very shortly. We have a capitalist break coming up in just a moment. Sell, sell, sell, sell, sell. What's coming up next, Mark? Yes. Well, coming up next, we have reviews of Blue Road, the Edna O'Brien story and immediately next Warfare with our very special guests. Alex Garland and Ray Mendoza, the directors and writers of Warfare after this.

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Hey, I can upgrade my kids! You chill, Mom. I'll load the dishwasher. Awesome! Exclusions apply. See Specsavers.ca for details. Offer ends soon. So as mentioned, this week's guest, Alex Garland and Ray Mendoza. Alex Garland, of

course, much discussed on this here show. Joined on this interview by Ray Mendoza, former US Navy SEAL, upon whose experiences in the Iraq war the film is based. All will be explained in just a moment after my chat with both of them after this clip. How bad is it? Yeah, we're gonna need a Casabat. Alright, this is Frogman 6. Romeo, we are troops in contact at our last known position. More info to follow. Stand by. Wild Eagle Base, Wild Eagle 2-4. We are troops in contact, requesting immediate air support. Over. Alpha 2, this is 1. We've had grenades thrown into our position.

Copy, 1. We're in contact too. Elliot is injured. Are we coming to you or are you coming to us? Stand by. That is a clip from Warfare. I'm delighted to say I've been joined by its writers and its directors, Alex Garland, Ray Mendoza. Gentlemen, welcome. How are you? Excellent. Very well. Thank you. Alex, we spoke last time for Civil War, which was my favorite film of last year. Joint first with Conclave, obviously a very different film. I liked Conclave very much as well. Ray, you haven't been on the show before,

but you're very welcome. In summary, 16 years a Navy SEAL and military advisor in Hollywood. Is that an acceptable sentence for you? Yes, it is acceptable. Does this story kind of start with Civil War, Alex, in terms of how you two started to work? Can you just explain how you met before we talk about the film? I mean, it starts in some sort of general senses earlier because of just an awareness of working in the film industry, an awareness of how war films and the genre, you know, there's enough war films that it's a genre and sort of how they function. And and then I was working on a war film at the point I met Ray. But yeah, absolutely, this film comes straight out of Civil War because it was to do with watching Ray with

actors, watching Ray's expertise, seeing things that he was choreographing that if you cut them without compressions and just showed exactly what he was putting together. A kind of electricity of reality floated out of that. It may be invisible when people are watching the film, but I really noticed it particularly when some soldiers are fighting their way down a corridor towards the Oval Office and he employed service people to perform it. Something very interesting was produced

by having no time compressions in the edit. So the strange sort of staccato rhythm of a gun. And then it was just calling Ray and saying, would you be interested in a real-time film that just had only one goal, which was just to recreate as accurately as possible what an incident of warfare and incident of combat was like. So Ray, when Alex said that to you, did you know immediately the story that you wanted

to tell? Not immediately. There was a few that I was considering. In a 20-year war, there's a lot of stories that kind of echo or resonate through the military that we all know about. Yeah, but there was one I've always wanted to tell, which was this one, which is about Elliot. He doesn't remember. He doesn't remember what happened.

So when I started working in the movie industry, the idea of maybe one day doing something like this for him started to kind of manifest itself. I always thought it was gonna be maybe just like a 30 minute recreation or kind of a docu documentary type thing. Never did I think it would be this big, it was just a great platform to do it.

Yep, and along the way I've acquired just a bunch of skills and learning how film sets work and how to tell stories in this new medium. So yeah, I made the decision, I made a bunch of calls to get permission. I knew it was going to require all the guys, as many people as possible that were there to have their input into kind of, you know, it's 20 years ago. So it was going to be a somewhat of a lengthy kind of a rediscovering process. And so, yeah, everyone was all board. Elliot was on board.

And yeah. So you mentioned Elliot, which I want board. Elliot was on board. And yeah. So you mentioned Elliot, which I want to fit him into the pattern. But can you just, so we're in Ramadi, Iraq, it's 2006. What is the incident that you wanted to tell in this film, Ray? What is the story that we see here? Yeah, it was the incident I wanted to tell is, yeah, we're in an overwatch position. Our position was compromised. We were evacuating Elliot because he had sustained some injuries during the compromise upon extraction. There was a massive IED, which pretty much crippled our position, multiple injuries. And so, yeah,

we had essentially a retreat back into the house. And we had to kind of defend it or simultaneously keeping Elliot and Joe alive as the other elements had to fight their way to us, ultimately extract. Alex, what did the screenplay look like? Because you wrote this together, having gone through all the consultation and the interviewing process which Ray's talking about. On the page, what do we see? The answer is in the process. It wasn't actually interviewing everybody and then writing it. Ray and I spent a week talking.

He downloaded everything he could. I wrote everything he said down and asked questions and asked him to explain things or unpack them. That then produced a screenplay. That screenplay, the basic answer is it looked like any other screenplay. It would say interior, sniper room, day, and then a disc, you know, some dialogue and a description. And then what we did was we just started a process of interviewing as many people as we could. And we would fold their accounts into the screenplay. We would also share that screenplay with them. And just, you know,

then cross-reference sometimes people would contradict each other, memories there would be gaps that slowly would get filled. Several of the people involved in this were concussed. So their memories and actually just their subjective experience of what happened is quite scrambled. And very slowly we pieced it together. There were many interesting sort of semi problems, but they're actually what is interesting about the project in a sense. So they're not, they're not the problems

in some ways, they're sort of the gold, that's sort of the truth, where you had two people with a sort of snapshot of something happening, which they attribute to themselves, because in their mind, they have that image and people are often under sort of stress never mind the the many years that have passed since then have a kind of tunnel vision and Where they attribute actions and how you unpick that was was very interesting and in its own way spoke to the nature of post-traumatic stress and and its own ways spoke to the nature of post-traumatic stress and combat and all of those sorts of things that the film is concerned with. And Ray, right at the very beginning of the film, it says that it is based just based

on memory. It's based on the memories of the people who took part in it. But presumably, as Alex was just suggesting, not everyone has the same memory. The final film that we see, how close is it to what you remembered? And was there anything in your memory that was actually incorrect? No. I mean, after the IED went off, a lot of my memory after the IED is very fragmented, right? So a lot of it is done through observation as in what somebody saw me doing. And so yeah, we, in regards to your question, how close is it, we all watched it together because I needed it kind of there. I wanted the guys that were there,

and the guys who participated in the interviews, I wanted their opinion on what they thought. And I think collectively, it was about as close as we can get it. And so we all agreed on that. And yeah, I think we're all satisfied. The film is genuinely astonishing and extraordinary, and you will leave the cinema completely exhausted,

but in a way still with all the characters that we've been introduced. But there is Alex no music at all. We don't really have any protagonists, we don't really have any heroes, and there certainly isn't any judgment. There is no context and no setup. We are just in that incident which Ray explained. Was that always the way that you wanted to tell the story? Because it does make it feel like a unique film. Yes, it absolutely was baked into it. I think the thing about music is it is a manipulation. It's effectively a piece of editorializing because it's heightening or emphasizing something in one way or another. In real life, protagonists don't have the shape of film protagonists or novel protagonists.

Their position of primacy might shift from one to another according to what's happening. And the whole point of this was to work from an awareness of the way in which war films function and to try and unlearn and give as unfiltered an account as possible, primarily from the point of view of one veteran, but also the other people that we interviewed as well. And in a way, that was it. That was sufficient that was it. That was sufficient information, sufficient challenge, sufficient meaning really to justify doing the project. Because war is not typically treated that honestly in cinema. It is sometimes treated very honestly, sometimes by rather oblique means. Come and

see as a surrealist film, but has an incredible sense of truth and power in the truth. But as we know, music, slow motion at a certain moment, have complicated consequences. Ray, is this as close as you have seen in a movie to the actual experience of warfare? You must have seen many war films and laughed or been offended maybe. Is this as close as it's got, do you think? Yeah, I would say yes. There were just things that I focused on that I think enabled to just, I guess, extract using like film techniques and stuff that maybe only veterans and active

duty military would appreciate the most. I mean, I think everyone's obviously picking up on it. You know, I hear like, this is very authentic. And I kind of asked like, well, how do you know it's authentic? I guess that's what I'm asking. Yeah. Well, yeah, but that's kind of, I think there's a comparison you can make. But I often, even for civilians, like, oh, it's very authentic. And I just asked myself, well, how do you know that is? But it is authentic to your point. And maybe it's just one of those intangibles you just know, you know that it feels authentic. And maybe that's because there is no scoring

and you're not being led into feeling a certain way. You're using your own experiences and you're projecting that, which maybe that's why it feels authentic to people. Cause it's, you're using your authentic true self to fill in the gaps. But maybe that's like the authentic authenticity of it. Yeah, I don't know.

I just know there's things that I wanted to express. There's things I wanted to, the sounds and the filling and the tempo of a firefight and how people reacted, the decision-making under stress and the decision-making while being concussed and what that looks like and the idiosyncrasies of it. So that's what I was focusing on. And that's how I think other veterans will see that because it's a very familiar thing to us.

And I wonder Ray, for the other work that you've done in other movies, including Civil War, have been leading up to this. I wonder, you know, could you have done this five years ago, six years ago? Yeah, it's funny you said that, but I've said that in other interviews. I don't think I would be able to. I mean, there would have been a version of it because you still have to, you know, it's like being a painter, but then not knowing techniques of brushstrokes or if you're going to utilize like pointillism or, you know, there's different methods of painting that I think lend to whatever kind of feeling or you look and you're gonna you want to convey to somebody. Even the kind of color palette to use convey moods and whatnot. And so I think with Alex I

think there's like the knowledge for me even still learning but yeah there's no way I don't think I was personally ready to tell the story just from a personal standpoint but also yeah understanding the amount of choreographing and working in action, not just from an art standpoint, but even from just a logistical understanding of how film sets work. What have your colleagues said to you, Ray, once they've seen it? There's two sides of it. There's the how factual, like that's about as good as close as we can get it. Furthermore, on that point of even like how they felt, that's about as good as, as close as we can get it.

Furthermore, on that point of even like how they felt, that's another thing that I was responsible for is conveying the emotional component, whether I was really afraid here, that I had to overcome that fear. And this is how I did that. This is what I did. So just from representing my friends accurately

and their actions and their emotions, I had to track that. So they felt that I got as close as they felt that day. And then there's just the, again, from the movie watching as a viewer standpoint of the sound design and all the other things we use in film. I was just going to mention this. I think I've got time for one more question, Alex, and that is the sound design is astonishing. One of the reasons it's such a visceral film, obviously, is what we're looking at and what we're watching, but the sound that you've

got is extraordinary. The sound design flows from exactly the same principle as everything else, which is how do we get it as close as we can to what it would have sounded like. And the film says at the beginning, based on memory, it could also say based, at times, it could say based on knowledge, because with Ray, you have someone who has a very clear understanding of the difference between the sort of sound quality of outgoing rounds and incoming rounds

and the way that can be used within a film. And so it all just flows from that, from that simple premise of trying to get it right, just trying to get it right. And I would just say you asked about the reactions of the people, either other military or military adjacent people, but specifically the people involved. This process in some respects probably feels like it culminates now with the release of the film. And I think that's true, it does. But in quite an important way, it culminated with a screening that Ray and I did where we flew to San Diego with the film and in a small screening room near the

Navy SEALs military base, we showed the film to the people that were there. And I think that was the strangest and most anxiety-producing screening I've ever been part of. It was a very strange, Simon, you're probably on a timeline and I'm talking too long, but very strange, very intense, very moving, I would say. If you can imagine that on set while Cosmo Jarvis was acting this moment of terrible trauma, Elliot was eight feet away from him watching. And then a few months after that,

we were sat in San Diego about to show this film to Joe and Elliot and the others, some of them who are still serving so we don't use their real names. It was just so unusual and so powerful. And at the end of it, Joe Hildebrand did say you couldn't have got it any closer. And I think that's what Ray and I were hoping for. Alex and Ray, thank you very much indeed. Alex, you are right. I am being wound up, but as far as I can say,

it's your film, so you can talk about it for as much as you want. But anyway, Alex Garland, Ray Mendoza, thank you so much for your time. I appreciate it very much. Thank you, Simon, thank you. Alex Garland and Ray Mendoza talking about their new film. If you've seen that,

if you've watched that interview on our YouTube channel, yours is a very interesting kind of body language and chemistry thing going on where Alex, who's obviously used to this kind of press junket, is looking at me and Ray is sort of doing everything but because he's less used to being in the spotlight. But what a fascinating interview, very, very interesting film. What did you make of warfare? So here's the interesting thing. So Alex Garland says that the aim was to recreate as accurately as possible what an incident of warfare was like. And that phrase is very important because an incident of warfare, because although we know when the film is happening and we know

vaguely where it's happening. One of the things that's interesting is that it is almost deliberately decontextualized. What the film is about is about a very specific point of view from almost from within one building without a sort of greater context to it. And it's important to say that. The other thing is that, as you quite rightly said, there's this thing about, it says at the beginning that the film is constructed from the memories of those people who were there. And as Ray himself said, it's about Elliot who doesn't remember what happened. And there was a great discussion in that interview about the way in which memory is inaccurate, the way in which memory is inaccurate, the way

in which memory is contradictory. I really liked the fact that what Alex Garland said was we weren't trying to step away from those things. In fact, we were trying to embrace them. So yes, it is to recreate as accurately as possible an incident of warfare. I just love that an incident because it could be one of many. But also the fact that even within that, it is about the reconstruction of memory. So there are two things going on, which is there is realism and there is something else. And it was interesting in that interview that Alex Garland talked about common scene. And he said, well, common see there's great truth in it, although it's using some surreal approach. What this isn't is just blank realism. And I

think we need to flag that. Okay. Also very interesting that you guys discussed the lack of music because there was a thing about music is basically manipulative music comes in and then it does things to the narrative and it's a way of editorializing. Well, that is true of the film, but of course the film does feature music. It starts in completely disorientating fashion with this video for Call on Me, this aerobics pumping video of these people doing aerobics. And when you start watching the film, and I think you and I both said it, you think, sorry, am I in the right film?

It's like the substance. It's like, sorry, what's going on? But then what happens is you realize this video is playing on a video screen, because I think the video's from 2004, I think with set company is that it's being watched on a video screen by a group of soldiers. And they're not talking or reacting, or they've been maybe vocalizing a little bit. But what it's doing is it's establishing this

kind of camaraderie. These people know each other. This is what they're doing in their downtime. They're watching this pop video, and it's very kind of racy, pumpy, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. That is how you get to know the group and the camera just sort of picks out faces. And it's a really strange opening, but it's a very important choice because that's where you meet them. You meet them under those circumstances.

Then what happens is for the rest of the film in the absence of music, absolutely. But you talked in that interview about when you get into essentially the firefight, the sound design is astonishing. Now, again, Alex Garland talked about what we were trying to do was get the sound design accurate,

that there is a very specific difference that Ray Mendoza would tell us about about the sound of outgoing fire, the sound of incoming fire. But it is sound design with the emphasis on the design. So for example, there are moments in the film in which the sound design becomes very expressionistic, in which characters who have been shell shocked or concussed by an explosion, what we appear to be hearing is the sound inside their heads,

specifically after the first, you know after the first huge explosion, and everyone is dazed and confused. What we're hearing is actually an imagined sound, it's a remembered sound, it's a sound that takes you inside their experience. So essentially, the narrative as it is, is that we see them going into a house where there is a terrified family. They take over the house. The family say, what are you doing? Why are you here? And the family told them, you stay there. They storm in. They're in a building that's been separated into two apartments. So, they smash through a wall to make it into one space. They immediately set

themselves up with observations, with sniper rifles, with all that stuff. Everything's very procedural. They're getting on with the job. It's all done by numbers. Then they suddenly, unexpectedly, find themselves on the receiving end of fire, and then everything becomes horrific. And suddenly they're in a situation in which they thought they were leaving, they have to retreat back into the house with casualties. And from then on, the rest of the story is about dealing with very, very badly wounded people and, as Ray himself said, just trying to keep them alive.

This does a number of things. The first thing it does, and you said yourself, I mean, the word gruelling doesn't really begin to describe the experience because the film, it doesn't want to cut ahead. It doesn't want to time ahead. It doesn't want to time jump. It doesn't want to go from somebody screaming in anguish because they have been very, very badly wounded. And then just cut away to like five minutes later when something has happened. It wants you to just sit there whilst all this happens

and plays out in real time. And I did find that, I mean, I didn't really know that much about the film beforehand, I just knew the title. And I was, you know, I wasn't, it wasn't just I was on the edge of my seat, I was kind of cowering. I was wishing that, you know, that I could solve this problem, solve this problem, stop this happening. This is, this is terrible. This is intolerable, which is what the film is meant to be about. So keep saying Alex Garland is about an incident of warfare. And this is like, you know, the whole thing, war is hell. Yeah, really? Well, here we go.

This is what it's like. And it made me think a number of different things. One of them was, I mean, I kept trying quite specifically to sort of remove myself and look at it critically to think, okay, well, what's happening is that Ray Mendoza is working with the actors, Alex Garland is working with the cameras, and this is the two things working in tandem. And I know that since then, people have talked about the film being like the opening movement of Saving Private Ryan, except the difference is in Saving Private Ryan, we know that there will be an overarching narrative that is coming after this. In the case of this, it is just this particular, as I said,

kind of decontextualized incident. I was also thinking, well, somebody could look at this and say, well, this is seen entirely from the point of view of the soldiers and it's not seen from the point of view of anybody else. That is right. That is absolutely by its nature. It is giving us the point of view of their mission. You're not seeing it through anybody else's eyes. And I imagine that it might be criticized for that, but that is what it is. It is deliberately decontextualized. I was also really struck by the fact that Ray Mendoza said that people had said to him, oh, you know, it's very authentic. And his reaction was really, how would you know? And I remember hearing an interview with somebody when Saving Private Ryan came out, a veteran

who was asked, is the opening moments of Saving Private Ryan, is that actually what it's like to be on a battlefield? This veteran had said, unless somebody is literally shooting at you from the aisles, no, it isn't. It's a film. But what it's doing is it's giving you the impression of what the memory of that might feel like. So, interestingly enough, I really did find the dealing with the injuries absolute. I don't know how you found about this, Simon, but I was just sitting there thinking, sorry

to say really stupid things, stop the bleeding, stop the pain, make that stop, which it doesn't do immediately. In the middle of all of this is the fact that, as I said, Will Poulter, Cosmo Jarvis, these are actors that I know I didn't think for one minute, I wasn't thinking about them as actors that I know and I'm aware of. I was just thinking, there are those people in this terrible situation. Just simple things about moving somebody around when they're dragging one of the cameras off the field and his foot is caught on the edge of a door. And then, you know, I mean, all those sort of, it had these

tiny little physical details. But I do think it's important to stress that it's not just hyper-realistic documentary. There is an expressionist element to it, which is, it says this itself, it is based on the memories of people. And I thought actually one of the most fascinating things was the way in which the film is negotiating those two things, the reality in inverted commas and the memory. I'll say one more thing before I throw this back to you. Anyone who sees the movie will come out of it not thinking, I think anything other than war is hell. I did think at the time as I was watching it, because of the way the movie parlance of warfare has quite often been heroic, dramatic, you know, all that stuff. This was very much war is hell. And I say this as a compliment, not as a criticism, I wanted it to end.

It's important to say also, this is a 90 minute film, which is it by current standards is incredibly short. And for the first 30 minutes, kind of nothing. It's just, you know, we're just in the place with them. It's procedural. Procedural. It is very much procedural and we're peering down a rifle barrel. We're part of the conversation, part of the radioed conversation, part of the conversation that all the soldiers are having. Everything that you've just said takes place over a very, very short period of time.

It does. But it feels like three and a half hours, for sure. And particularly with Top Gun Maverick, we had a great time. You have a blast, but you understand why it's brought to you in association with the American military. Because you might come out of that and think, hey, I'm going to join up. And an awful lot of that kind of thing happens, and it feels like a video game. And sometimes it's because it's come from a video game. So this is not that. So for example, when I came out, my first thought was, my first job

when I left university was for Worthing Borough Council. And I worked in the car parks department and I worked with guys. This was my first job. And for the guys I worked with, it was their last job before retirement. They were very, very different in their perspective on absolutely everything. But they had all been in the Second World War and they were all united by the fact that they hated war films and they hated war films because they never told the story. They never showed you what it was like. And I kind of think that with all of everything that you've just said, that they would

go and sit there probably no longer with us is my guess, but if they went to see warfare, they go, yeah, yeah, that I think anyway. Yeah, no, I mean, I agree. And I hope that what I was saying didn't disagree with that. What I'm saying is it's within the context of understanding that obviously watching a film about war is never going to be actually like being, and that's why, and I say this very specifically because Ray Mendoza said that thing that he said to people who've never been in combat. They said, it's authentic.

And his feeling was always, how would you know? And what he said was, he said, it feels authentic because it puts you in a position in which you feel that what you're seeing is real and you relate it to your own experience. And actually that is the skill of the film, that it does do that. And yeah, I mean, it's incredibly intense, isn't it? It is, and we shot in Hertfordshire. So if you're finding it slightly too much, well, Mark, some good news.

Yes. I know this show is still always reliably side-splittingly funny. It is. But the joke writer in chief is off this week. Hooray! Sorry, boo, dear. Yeah, what a shame. I know essentially what you're thinking. Why should he get a break from the terrible jokes when we don't?

Yes. Well, think again. A couple of our younger listeners, Erin and Noah, have chipped in with a few Easter-themed jokes of their own. Fantastic. Excellent work. Here we go. What did the chocolate egg say when it couldn't find a movie to watch? My brain's been scrambled. Why did the rabbit love the romantic comedy set during Easter? Because it was all is to see your single What's a chickens favorite job a comedian?

What is the Easter Bunny's? Superhero say Chock Chockin away Why was the Easter egg so excited about the sequel? Because everyone said it was eggs. Why did the Easter basket become a film critic? Because it was full of opinions because you fill it up with chocolate. I think that last bit was handed to us. It was like a little extemporized joke. I mean, obviously, fear

not, the redacted will soon rise again as the season demands. However, why not? If you if there are people in your house who can do better for the laughter, you know, I know you'll miss my incredible comedy pattern, but yeah, so send all that stuff. You want to send us voice notes, you want to send us your kids telling jokes or just your own opinions of stuff. Correspondence at Kerbidabaya.com. In our final section, Mark, what are you up to?

Blue road to the Ezra O'Brien story. section, Mark, what are you up to? Blue Road, the Ezra O'Brien story. Jack, I just noticed this one, Mark. I just noticed it. Long-term list, a counterpoint finalist and previous multiple-time emergency mailer on the subject of board games, revelatory deer and other subjects. On the subject of the new Snow White and socialist fantasies, couldn't we also say the same thing about the new Snow White and socialist fantasies, couldn't we also say the same thing about the old Snow White? What could be more socialist than a group of people who are in a brotherhood of mine workers living in a collective accommodation who sing songs glorifying labor, control their own means of production, and place people in glass coffins?

Clearly Walt Disney was a sneaking Stalinist. And that's definitely Stalinist propaganda. Makes you think clinkety clunk and up with miners and down with remakes. Just like you say, Walt Disney has been called a lot of things, but a secret Stalinist, I haven't heard that before. Exactly. But how nice to think of the original kind of legendary world shattering Snow White. It's full of control. If only in the middle of hi-ho, hi-ho, they'd all gone, Maggie, Maggie, Maggie, out, out, out. Would that have helped? Tell us about a movie that's out that doesn't involve, well, I don't

know whether it involves shooting or not. No, it doesn't. Interestingly enough, this is the third film of the week that tells a true story. This is Blue Road, the Edna O'Brien story. This is a very fine documentary by Sinead O'Shea, who made Pray for Our Sinners and a mother brings her son to be shot. her son to be shot. This tells the story of the legendary writer who died last year, age 93. Edna O'Brien was the author of novels like Country Girls, which was scandalous at the time. She wrote Pagan Place, House of Splendid Isolation, Girls. She wrote short stories, plays, poems, children's books for movies, Z and Co, which I think is actually probably more commonly known as X, Y and Z. Fantastically prolific writer, but also somebody who appeared to live umpteen lives in one. And essentially,

this doc tells the story of that life and what a life it was. It features an interview recorded shortly before Edna O'Brien's death. Then we have readings from her diary read by the great Jessie Mosley, Andrew O'Hagan, and Edna O'Brien's sons, and archive interviews such as this one. I learned you described a country which has been ravaged. Isn't there some peculiar way in which you yourself are doing the same thing? I mean, aren't you... Stealing from it? Yes.

Yes, I knew you would ask me that. Why did you know I would ask that? But I felt it. I felt it in the air coming. I have to defend myself. I don't think I do. I'm not attacking you. No, no. I'm trying to make a statement about it. It is true.

true. I take from the fund of history and geography and stories and I make of it, or would like to make out of it, my own song. It is a form of stealing, but it's like a bank loan. You have to give it back. Pete Just a fantastic voice. Pete Beautiful voice. Pete So, the life story about which I confess I knew fairly little was when she was young, she ran away from her rural Irish home with a writer who at first seemed to be the sort of the man of her dreams, but who became enraged by her success with country girls, became abusive, became violent, became financially controlling. She wound up alone with the children, burgeoning career, moved to Chelsea, became part of a very glamorous social circle. Her encounters with men included an affair with a British politician who is unnamed.

I don't know whether the name is known because I don't really know anything about the story, but unnamed in the documentary, and I believe officially unnamed still, experimented with the mind with politics, psychoanalysis, somebody who seems to have absolutely grabbed the world by the throat. And the documentary makes really good use of interviews, of readings, of archive footage. And the sense you get from it is the sense of somebody who is fiercely engaged with the world. Like, you know, people talk about people who really live life to the full. They really, their fingers in the, you know, the peat of the world. But also somebody who is really unafraid to poke life with a stick and antagonize it

and see what happened. Now, I knew something of her writings. I knew nothing like what's on display here about her life. Let me make a confession. This is the sort of level of my ignorance. I think the first time I ever heard Edna O'Brien's name was in the chorus of Dance Dance by Dexys Midnight Runners. And if you remember, what that song does is it's just a list of Irish authors going, you know, Oscar Wilde and Brendan B and Edna O'Brien, or that, and it's them singing in the background. And I remember really clearly, because I love pop music and I love Dexys

and hearing this song with this list of people being saying, who are these people? I knew some of them, but I didn't, you know, knew Oscar Wilde was. And Edna O'Brien's name is in that. And I've been being really excited and then buying an Edna O'Brien book as a result of it. Now, the reason I say this is because I'm not just being silly. That song fired me up. That song fired my interest. Okay. And I think that watching this documentary reminded me of the way I felt the first time I heard Dance Dance and thinking I have to go out, rush out and get all of Edna O'Brien's stuff now and read it because I'm fired up by it. And I mean it as the highest possible compliment to say that a documentary about a writer made me think of a pop song that I loved when I was young and made me feel that sense of I need to sense of, I need to know more, I

need to know more, I need to immerse myself in this. So where do I find this in the cinema? It will be in cinemas, yes. If you remember, there was quite a lot of attention paid to it around the time of the BAFTAs. It was one of the things that was talked about quite a lot then. But honestly, it is a really invigorating film. That is the end of take one. This has been a Sony Music Entertainment production. This week's team was Jen, Eric, Josh, Vicky, Zachy, Heatherie. The producer was Jemi, who is abroad and in Singapore, but still working very, very hard. They're an actor with Simon Poole, who's just turned up again.

If you're not following the pod already, please do so wherever you get your podcasts, which is a very, very lovely thing. Mark, what is your film of the week? Well, it's a strong week. I'm going to go for warfare because I found that even after we'd spoken about it for 10 minutes, there's still so much more to say. Would you want to see it again? That's such a loaded question. In a good way. Yes, I would want to see it again, but I would dread doing so. Yeah, maybe watch it again in a couple of months as opposed to immediately.

Yeah, exactly. All right. Correspondents of COVIDamode.com, thank you very much indeed for listening. Take two has landed right alongside this one. If you'reamo.com, thank you very much indeed for listening. Take two has landed right alongside this one. If you're a Vanguard Easter, we will talk very soon.