Kermode & Mayo’s Take - WICKED: Which Witch Wins - Is the Sequel/Prequel Equal?

Episode Date: November 20, 2025

Some exciting news—The Take is now on Patreon: www.patreon.com/kermodeandmayo. Become a Vanguardista or an Ultra Vanguardista to get video episodes of Take Two every week, plus member‑only chat rooms, polls and submissions to influence the show, behind‑the‑scenes photos and videos, the monthly Redactor’s Roundup newsletter, and access to a new fortnightly LIVE show—a raucous, unfiltered lunchtime special with the Good Doctors, new features, and live chat so you can heckle, vote, and have your questions read out in real time. A leather-clad Alexander Skarsgård is riding into this week’s Take as our very special guest. That’s because he’s here to talk about ‘Pillion’, the one-of-a-kind comedy drama where he stars as mysterious BDSM biker Ray. The film follows his unfolding relationship with Colin, a shy small-town boy played by Harry Melling—who you might have heard on the show a few months back chatting to Simon about ‘Harvest’. Colin begins to discover his submissive streak under Ray’s dominant hand, as their complex relationship develops. Alexander sits down with Simon to unpack the film—a ‘Dom-Com’, as he calls it—and gives us the lowdown on what a Skarsgård Christmas looks like too. Don’s miss Mark’s review of ‘Pillion’ on next week’s show. This week we’ve got his verdicts on three more juicy new releases for you as usual. First up, ‘Sisu: Road to Revenge’--the Finnish action sequel to 2022’s ‘Sisu’, where seemingly unkillable action man Aatami Korpi goes on a revenge rampage against the Red Army. Plus, Bizarre biblical horror ‘The Carpenter’s Son’, starring Nicolas Cage going full Nicola Cage yet again—and ‘Wicked: For Good’ – the sequel to last year’s musical smash spectacle. The Good Doctors run down the box office top 10 too—and from the top of the charts to the bottom of the barrel, there’s the Laughter Lift. Plus your excellent and erudite correspondence answered. AND Don’t miss our upcoming LIVE Christmas Extravaganza at London’s Prince Edward Theatre on 7th December—with special guests Nia DaCosta, Gurinder Chadha, and more! Tickets here: fane.co.uk/kermode-mayo Timecodes (for Vanguardistas listening ad-free) Sisu: Road to Revenge Review: 13:44 BO10: 22:21 Alexander Skarsgard Interview: 37:37 The Carpenter’s Son Review: 51:15 Laughter Lift: 01:01:28 Wicked: For Good Review: 01:05:51 You can contact the show by emailing [e-mail] or you can find us on social media, @KermodeandMayo Please take our survey and help shape the future of our show: https://www.kermodeandmayo.com/survey EXCLUSIVE NordVPN Deal ➼ https://nordvpn.com/take Try it risk-free now with a 30-day money-back guarantee! A Sony Music Entertainment production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts and follow us @sonypodcasts To advertise on this show contact: [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This episode is brought to you by Mooby, a curated streaming service dedicated to elevating great cinema. Mubi is the place to discover ambitious films by visionary filmmakers, all carefully handpicked. So you can explore the best of cinema streaming anytime, anywhere. Mark, what have Mooby got up their sleeves for us this October? Well, Simon, is a very exciting new release, The Mastermind, which is now in UK Cinemas. It's the new film from Kelly Reichard, the brilliant director of Meeks Cutoff, Night Moves, and First Cow for which we interviewed Toby Jones. The film went down a storm in Cannes earlier this year.

It stars Josh O'Connor, of course, another Kermudemeyer favorite, alongside Alana Haim, Gabi Hoffman, Hope Davis and Bill Camp. Visit mooby.com slash mastermind for showtimes and tickets. And to stream great films at home, you can try Mooby-free for 30 days at Mooby.com slash Kermud and Mayo. That's M-U-B-I-D-Moe for a whole month of great cinema for free. Well now I've been away Mark as I sometimes have to be And did you know whilst I've been caving in the dolomites

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Check the link in the description. Before we begin, a quick reminder that you can become a Vanguard Easter and get an extra episode every Thursday. Including bonus reviews. Extra viewing suggestions. Viewing recommendations at home and in cinemas. Plus your film and non-film questions answered as best we can in questions, Schmestgen. You can get all that extra stuff via Apple Podcasts or head to extra takes.com for non-fruit-related devices.

There's never been a better time to become a vanguard Easter. Free offer, now available, wherever you get your podcasts. And if you're already a vanguard Easter, We salute you. Can't get the right bit to work. Okay, fine, I'll just... Can't get the right bit to work? No, I can't get the right bit to work.

Can you... Which, I don't know, how does this work? Do you know? Which, which bit, how does what work? I don't know. Anyway, welcome to the show. Are we just going to go without the right bit working? Yeah, because if we wait for the right bit to work,

I'm afraid we won't get this done. I told you, I've told you probably many times, I saw the fabulous orange juice live at the Hacienda in Manchester in the 80s. And they rushed on stage and Edwin Collins went, you know, shall we tune up? Thought not. And then they just played. Wouldn't it be great if all musicians had that attitude?

Shall we sound check? Nah. That's really good. You would just assume that the first song is there for the sound person to get all the levels right. The lighting person to sort out everything. And the band would work out what they're doing. And then second song, off they go. Edwin Collins is such a genius.

It's such a brilliant. There was that other thing when he came on. He went, I'm Edwin Collins, obviously. Asny just retired. I think he's just said he's done his last show. Oh, is that right? Okay. Well, that's very sad, but he's left us behind an absolutely, you know, gem of a back catalogue.

And, yeah, they were so great life. They were so exciting. I've never heard anything so jangly in my life. And, you know, the hacienda, the sound in the hacienda was always horrible. Because the hacienda was, like, built of concrete. It was really, really, they were the, only band that sounded better because like all the sound was banging off all the walls and it was just sounding great. How is it possible for it like a gig venue to have notoriously terrible

acoustics? I know. Well, of course it wasn't a gig venue, was it. It was like it was, it was, it was entirely the wrong thing. There was a famous, there was a famous article in the NME when the hacienda was taking off, you know, when it was suddenly suddenly, because at the first, well, I joined it in 82 and there was nobody there at all. And there was an article which said the hascienda is booming brackets, no, we don't mean the sound system. Okay, that's very good. So let's say hello to all the good sound engineers out there who are thinking that our idea of using the first song for a sound check is,

I don't know, maybe they'd be fully supportive because it would save them time, or maybe they would think, no, the band will come on and sound terrible. Yeah. Let's hear it from sound engineers. Correspondence at cowerment.com. What are you going to be reviewing later on in this year podcast? A packed and very, very unvaryed show. We have The Carpenter's Son, which is a kind of religiously inspired.

Is it a horror movie? We have Sisu, Road to Revenge. Hang on, can I just ask? Sorry to interrupt. Is it that carpenter we're talking about? That carpenter. Oh, right. Or is it?

Or is it? Okay. Carry on, sorry. Then we have Sisu Road to Revenge. You'll remember how much you enjoy. Cisoo. I really, really did. Yeah. Well, he's still cross. And Wicked for Good, which is Wicked Part 2, Wicked, you know, the second half, after an interval which lasted a year, Wicked for good. I have to say, if I wanted to avoid anyone who was cross, Sisu would probably be

top of that list. Yeah, yeah. My favorite scene in the original Sisu is when he dispatched a Nazi by throwing a landminer his head. I think I need to see that again. Also, we have a special guest who is Alexander Scarsgaard. It's that Alexander Scarsgaard of the Scarsgaard vanguard. He's going to be talking about his new film Pillion, which Mark will be reviewing on next week's programme. And what about in the Rocking Take 2?

In the Rocking Take 2, we have, again, two very, very different things. Testimony, which is a very moving documentary. And Pluribus, which is the new TV show, It's Gilligan, starring Rear Seahorn, which I've watched the first three. I imagine you've done the same thing. Correct. Very keen to talk about it. Yes, and I'm sure we'll get lots of correspondence on Pluribus,

because it is one of those shows that people will be going, oh, can we discuss this? Yeah, yeah. We can. We can, and we shall. Plus, all the other extra stuff, including details of all the best and worst films on TV over the weekend. Further discussion on revenge movies in one frame back.

And questions, shmestians, in which we answer the excellent question, are there any screenplays that were butchered so much from what could have been a really, really great film? There are. I look forward to Mark's answers on that one. Plus, let us remind you that all, that the full video episodes are all available on YouTube, as well as the reviews and interviews. So head over and subscribe. And our extra show, Take Ultra, will be live streamed next week at 1230 UK time. and then available straight away to listen or watch. So if you can't make what nobody is calling our naughty lunchtime treat,

and I mean nobody is calling it that, then you can enjoy the whole thing later as a video episode on your usual fruit or non-fruit-based device as an audio podcast. Last week's Take Ultra included everything you need to know about what's good on home streaming. We dug into October's box office performance of films like Tron Arse, I swear, and wombat laughter another. Is that right?

It is. We discuss staggering casts in improbable films. And we went dangerously below the line on our YouTube channel in our points of view style feature hot takes and cold comfort in which the most stridently expressed opinions, it says here about me and Simon, but it's generally about me and sometimes actual films, are vividly brought to life through the miracle of modern dance and theatre

by our tip-top production team. With a variety of accents, which is very, very splendid. A range of accents. Yes, and they're going to be bringing in costumes in future. So I really feel as though the phrase building their part up is going to be in play. We also spoke about our new Hall of Fame. The first category is UK Independent Cinema. Fantastic.

So head to patreon.com slash Kermot of Mayo. That's patreon.com. This is our Patreon page. But if I have to spell it out. Yes. It's patron, which I have to, I think. It's patreon.com slash curmud and mayo, all one word. Now, I've noticed there is a line here that I probably should have said, but we were switching

between scripts. If you haven't yet nominated your local independent cinema to be the first inductee, then head over there now and do that. It is, we're speaking on Wednesday morning. It is so dark here. I'm basically operating from the light of my laptop. That's how it is. I mean, I'm thinking of turning the lights on, but that would feel a little bit savage.

I know that, you know, everything adjusts accordingly, but it is like broadcasting at midnight. I'm in Cambridge, and it is a howling down with a storm, with the rain on the window, sounds like a drum, and we're marching for freedom today. That's what it sounds like. Marching for freedom today? Yeah, what's that song? Is that a Coca-Cola ad? No, it was, it was, I think it was Neil Innes doing a, doing a Ruttle's pastiche of Bob Dylan. On a tin roof sounds like a drum and we're marching for freedom today.

I think that's right. I think I'm remembering that correct. Sounded terrible. Anyway, just here's another gratuitous plug for our Christmas movie Spectacular, which is happening very, very shortly. Tell us more, Mark. Yeah, so it's happening on December the 7th. It's at the Prince Edward Theatre in the west end of that London.

Tip-top guests, including Jason Isaac's his very self, wandering around a fan convention in New Orleans. I know this is a live thing, but that sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. It does. It really does. We also have Grinda Chattah actually in person talking about Christmas Karma, which is her new film and new adaptation of Christmas Carol. And Nia DeCosta, director of Candyman, The Marvels and Hedda, who is now helmed 28 days later, The Bone Temple. And an interview dripping with Christmas joy, obviously. She'll be telling us all about what might happen to a feral doctor, played by Ray Fynes, who, spoiler alert, presented a son with his mother's polished skull

and made him put it on top of a pile of other skulls in the last film. But as that was the poster, I think that's probably okay. And I will be asking near DeCosta whether or not you missed the opportunity to use Jimmy Jimmy as the theme tune to that film. Plus, well, that's it, deck the halls. That's Sunday, the 7th of December at 2 o'clock. Head to feign.com.com.com. Take and grab all the tickets that you need. Yes, it's not that fame.

It's F-A-N-E.comat-U-K-S-T-T-E-E-K-A-U-K-S-T-T-E. And you can get your tickets there. Jimmy Jimmy, ooh, by the undertones. I think, do you remember what the B-Side was? I bought it on, I had it on green vinyl, which is very lovely. No, what was the B-Side?

I think the B-Side of that is Mars. Oh, really? It was sort of banned from the radio just because it's a blatant plug for Mars, obviously. But the chorus goes, Helps me, makes me work, rest and play. Helps me makes me work rest and play. So anyway, it's what B-side.

We've lost the art form, really, of the B-side, which is always... We really have. We really have... Which was often better than the A-side. Do you remember in the 1970s when Jasper Carrot had a hit with Oofunky Moped? Nobody bought that... Yeah, exactly. Nobody bought that record because of Oof-Funky Mopet. They bought it because of the B-side, which was the Magic Roundabout.

That's very good. I'm going to have to listen. to both those sides in reverse order a little bit later on. Right, so if I can read this in the dark, shall I put a light on? Oh, you've got all doctor's waiting room when you turn that light on. No, no, that looks worse. Okay, I'm just going to struggle.

I'm going to hold it up to the laptop. We were talking about er text. You just threw in the er text earlier. Earlier. So some correspondence just showing off here about our listenership. The Reverend Paul Charles, now qualified to be a member of Priests Portico, says, I would like to suggest a reasonable origin of the phrase er text. In German, the word means original text.

But as Simon mentioned, Err is also a place in ancient Mesopotamia, or in the language of Genesis 11, verse 31, Er of the Chaldeans. This place is where terror set off en route to Canaan with his family, one of whom was Abram. Terror did not make it to Canaan, but Abram did, got renamed Abraham, and the rest is, as they say, Jewish, Christian and Islamic history. I have tried to trace the origin of the term Urtext in order to assert this with certainty, but the connections seem more than coincidental. The word is German, and given Germany has had more than its fair share of

excellent biblical scholars and linguists, I would be genuinely surprised if Ertex does not find its origin in terror and Abraham leaving their home. Er is thus Abraham's physical origin and almost certainly Ertext's linguistic one. However, Tom Burrage, B.A. Honors Politics and Sociology University of Warwick. For balance, I did win several water polo medals in Manchester Commonwealth Pool. Hi, gentlemen and scholar. Probably one of the many, but I believe Ertext refers to the Samarian city of Err and the epic of Gilgamesh, which refers to a great flood, and is speculated what several other mythical great floods are based on, hence it being the founding text. Love the show, Steve Tom Burrage. And then, just to confuse things further,

Lucas in Bern in Switzerland, Bern. Dear Karma and Maestro, medium-term listener, first-time emailer, I felt compelled to comment on last week's discussion of the word, er, er, text. You stated correctly that er text is a text from which other texts are derived, but you wondered where it came from. The prefix er, which is UR, obviously, is pronounced someone like the O-U-R in Tor. So it's UR text. UR-text means original or primal, similar to the prefix proto. It appears in words such as Ur-Sherai primal scream or the German word for Big Bang, which is Urqunall or Orknal.

literally the original bang and er text is therefore the original text I know then Lucas signs off wisely I just wanted to clarify this so you can forget about it and we can discuss it again in five years time listen Lucas we'll forget that in five minutes time so but if you if you've spent all your life saying urtext you're not going to start saying

our text are you no but it's like er text in the middle of our street so you know it's okay I mean I think that's quite enough of that kind of thing But thank you very much indeed for a caring that we get irtext, absolutely correct. Sorry, Adam said her text rather than or text. Correspondence at codemeyer.com. Tell us about, okay, well, let's talk about revenge.

Sisu. Sisu wrote to revenge. So you'll remember that the first one was this Finnish film, film, John Murray Halandar, who made rare exports, big game, and said Sisu is a Finnish word that cannot be translated. It means a white knuckle form of courage and unimaginable deterred. determination, Sisu manifests itself when all hope is lost. And the original was set and finished Lapland, 1944, man, a few words, ultimately played by Jorma Tomir, Tamilla, maybe. Yeah, two else, maybe Tom Miller, anyway, who's actually the brother-in-law of the director, as it turns out,

has found gold, he's heading home, he also finds Nazis, the Nazis do not do well. And he basically he survives being drowned, blown up, hanged, shot at this. There's a, impaled on a spike. There's a point when somebody says, do you really believe he's immortal to which they reply, no, he just refuses to die. So that was basically the first film. As I said, there was a highlight in which he dispatched a Nazi by throwing a landmine at his head. And it was definitely a film that adhered to the Indiana Jones rule, which is it's okay to hate Nazis. This time, however, it's okay to hate the other side, to hate the Reds, or more precisely, the Soviets whom Finland have been suspicious of for some time. So it's 1946. The man who refuses

to die returns to Soviet-occupied Karelia, where his family have been butchered by Igor Draganov, played by Stephen Lang, who is now... He's got to sound like a bad he, hasn't he? He's very bad. He's now in a Siberian prison. So our wordless anti-hero dismantles his home, puts all the wood from his home on a truck. and heads off on a double mission, one, to rebuild his home somewhere else, and secondly, to wreak vengeance on the people that did terrible to his family. Meanwhile, Igo Dragonov has been told in the prison, right, you've unleashed this terrible killing machine. Go sort it out and go finish the job, which he tries to do. Here's a clip.

I think the legend has been homesick. Go on. Oh! Ah! Ha! Ha! Ha! Oh! Oh, me!

Oh! ! That's all you need, definitely. I mean, I love how much you enjoyed just the sound of it. Well, I think the legend has been homesick, and then the sound of him clearly dismembering a whole bunch of Russians. Exactly, exactly. So, apparently, 11 million euros, this is the most expensive finish film ever made,

although that is like saying the most exciting garden in Watford, isn't that? But anyway, not a lot of money, is it? No, it's, I mean, but it looks fantastic. So the director has cited as inspirations, Indiana Jones, James Bond and Buster Keaton. And critics have cited Fury Road and John Wick. Fury Road, because a lot of it is in a truck. And John Wick, because any single object that he puts his hands on can be turned into a killing machine. I would actually say that the closest reference point is Evil Dead or Evil Dead 2.

because Sam Ramey, when he was describing The Evil Dead, said it's not horror movie. It's a slapstick comedy. It's a three stooges slapstick comedy with blood and guts standing in for custard pies. There's also quite a lot of sorcerer in as much as there is a big truck. Only this time it's not the truck that's in danger of exploding. It's everything else around the truck that is in danger of exploding. And as with John Wick, you do get fantastically inventive uses. There is one bit in which Sisu fights a plane with.

plank of wood. Okay, fair enough. With spectacular results. What kind of wood? Is it hardwood or bolster wood? It's the wood that his house was made out of. Because he's got the truck with the wood that his house was made up that he's got, that he will then use in various ways to fight everything.

And there's another bit in which there's an interface between a missile and a train carriage that he rides like Wiley Coyote in one of those. I mean, there is a real kind of animated cartoon craziness to it. The screening that I saw, it was first thing in the morning, and there was so much laughter. I mean, it was like much more than you'd get in your average alleged comedy. What, I mean, what you don't get is, I don't know whether you remember, but in the first film, the first time Sisu starts to, not Sisu, the first time the character starts to be

indestructible, you're sort of surprised because he doesn't look like an indestructible person who can take on umpty thrumpty Nazis. Well, this time you just know. You just know he's never going to die. He's the man who refuses to die. So it's absolutely fine. So just start. Just start attempting to kill him and let me watch the inventive ways in which he throws that back in your face. There is, I mean, I keep mentioning the landmine scene because I just remember seeing that in the first film and guffawring just because it was so brilliantly preposterous. In the case of this, it's really inventive. The choreography of the of the insane slapstick violence is really, really, really creative. And considering, I mean, the interesting thing is the guy,

he's the lead guy who doesn't, doesn't speak, he is a very respected theatre actor. He was the founder of a theatre company. He's got, you know, he's got a very sort of respectable career now, probably best known as this guy who doesn't talk, but just dispatches anyone who tries to deal with him. The fact that it's a 15 certificate, the certificate, the certificate is exactly the same as a certificate on the original, which is 15 for strong blood. bloody violence, gore and language, but crucially, not cruelty. So there's an awful lot of carnage and dismemberment, but there's very little pain, although there is one scene in which our anti-hero is brutally tortured, which is quite painful, but you know it's going to stop,

and then he's just going to kill everybody else. So if you enjoyed the first C-suit, and if you didn't, what's wrong with you? This is that, but turned up to 11. So in a way, the kind of the comparison would be with, you know, like I said, with evil dead too. It's bigger, slapsicier. And it is remarkable just how entertaining the choreography of the chaos is. And I guess particularly in Finland, which as we know is the happiest country in the world, always comes out. The idea of sort of fighting Russia is very real, absolutely front and

centre in all of their politics. They have that, you know, as we've read many times, is that the longest border with Russia. That's right. They permanently live with the thought that they might come back. So this probably feels a whole lot. I don't know. Does that make it less funny in Finland? I don't know. I'll be honest with you. I think that the honest truth is that political context is not to the forefront. It is more nameless or effectively, you know, bad person has done bad things and now he is going to sort them out. Bring on the planes

I have a plank of wood. Okay. So realpolitik is not what Sisu Road to Revenge is all about. Correspondence at cobbler.com. Mark, what are you going to be doing next? Well, next up we're going to be doing the box office top 10. We're going to be doing

the carpenter sun and we're going to be reviewing Wicked for Good. But you are going to be speaking to your very special guest. Alexander Scarsguard. And we also have the box office top ten, which Mark has already mentioned. And if I'd read ahead, I would have just chopped that bit out. But I didn't. So I haven't. And you didn't mention the laughter lift. I can't imagine why. I was hoping that that wasn't going to happen this week. That is also on the way. Mark, our Black Friday and Cyber Monday

stressful flashpoints that whip people into a spending frenzy or a good chance to get presents for Christmas at great prices. A bit of both, I suppose. Either way, if you're an online shop experiencing your first festive rush this year, you want Shopify in and around your business this November. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all e-commerce in the US, from household names to entrepreneurs will be participating in their first Black Friday slash Cyber Monday this year. Shopify's marketing tools will help push your brand to the forefront of the chaos. And helps them. them get the shop away. This Black Friday joined the thousands of new entrepreneurs hearing

ka-ching for the first time with Shopify. Sign up for your free trial today at Shopify.co.com.uk slash take. That's Shopify.com.uk.U.K. slash take. Go to Shopify.com.com.uk slash take. And make this black Friday on to remember. Hey, take listeners, this is an advert from Better Help. Now, when it comes to wellness these days, don't you reckon it feels like there's advice for everything oh you should do cold plunges no you should do gratitude journals but how do you know what actually works specifically for you you can almost get lost in these recommendations it can feel like a struggle or even a stress but talking to live therapists can get you personalized recommendations

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read in many different ways you know is my brother's keeper is somebody being kept in what does it mean and from the beginning of it you think it's going to be a sort of scary almost it almost looks at being it can be some kind of weird torch point but actually it's an osgood perkins film that is very good at wrong footing you and it's it's at number 11 is it yes number 11 but that's really not bad for a little independent horror movie, which has got some very good ideas in its head and which is consistently surprising. It's number eight in America as well, so it's been even better there. Number 10 here and there, quirky, buzzy music playing, Bagonia.

The more I think about Bagonia, the more I think that it's, I mean, I think it's really interesting. I think there are really good things in it. I do think it's my least favorite Yorgos Lantamos film, but that is still a very high bar. Number nine in the UK, sugary saccharine music playing, a poor patrol Christmas. Yeah, not to be confused with pets on a train, which I have seen. I haven't seen poor patrol Christmas, but I'd be very surprised if it wasn't exactly what you think it is. And number eight here, number four in America, regretting you, regretful music playing.

Yeah. Well, don't regret having seen the film, but don't think I'll be rushing to do it again any time soon. Number seven, twinkly Santa music playing Christmas Karma. So this is the new film by Girinda Chada, who is coming on our spectacular Christmas live show, which is Simon. We've said this already, but it's December. It's very good. And it's going to be in London. December the 7th.

December the 7th at... In the afternoon. In the afternoon at the Prince Edward Theatre in London's glittering West End. Number six here, nowhere in Canada just yet, choral music playing, because it's the choral. Which, we had a really interesting email last week from a listener who said that they saw this on Remembrance Sunday. Yes. And it had completely transformed the experience of the film, which you might think is, it's okay, it's a little bit light, a little bit incidental. But because of when they had seen it, it had become something much more powerful.

And it was an interesting discussion about it's not just what you bring to a film. It's when you bring it to a film. Number five, Jiu-Jitsu-Kisen, colon, execution. Yeah, now I confess, I didn't see this last week, because last week we ended up reviewing six films, and we just simply ran out of time. So this is an anime. I'll read to you what it says. For the first time on the big screen, there should be a incident. The greatest battle in Jiu-Caisen to date will be presented in a special compilation format.

it also presents the debut of the first two episodes of season three's upcoming arc Culling game part one ahead of its blah blah anyway haven't seen it okay number four thundering portentious music playing nuremberg yes and i had gone into this as i think you might have done thinking russell crow is herman gurring i don't think so and then i came out of it thinking, actually, that's a very fine performance by him. The film itself, it has some flaws. It is, you know, it's quite theatrical in its nature. It's quite dramay, particularly in the courtroom scenes. But an almost scene-stealing performance from Richard E. Grant, Rami Malick's pretty good as the psychiatrist around whom Herman Goering is running circles.

But the real surprise is, I think, that Russell Crow is very good in the film. And as I said before, Believe me, I've laughed at Russell Crowe with the best of them, but I think this is one of his better performances. Colin Free on Patreon, just back from Nuremberg, but obviously it's not a travel thing, this is the movie thing, does not reach the heights of Stanley Kramer's judgment at Nuremberg, and I am not convinced about Rami Malik as a movie star, but the courtroom scenes were powerful,

and Richard E. Grant steals the whole shebang. There we go, and I hadn't seen that email, so how wonderful that we ended up saying the same thing. Number three here. Number three in America. Tom Jones music playing. Oh no, that's for the running man. Sorry, I'll hold that back. Number three in the UK, number three over there as well. It's sort of destructive animal rip you to shreds. Rip you to shreds by Blondie. That's playing Predator Badlands. I think technically that song is called Rip Her to Shreds by Blondie. I was just changing the title to fit the movie. I know you were. I know you were. I know you were. You could have done who did the music for badlands dun dun dun dun dun is it carloff anyway whatever

I had really liked prey and I think I really wanted something more like prey what you get in fact is this which is CG-tastic much more family friendly I have no problem with the idea of oh you know the Predator is now the good guy

because as I said we're talking about Arnold Schwarzenegger and Terminator Terminator goes from being the ultimate killing machine to being the ultimate father figure and he just over the course of two movies. I was kind of disappointed by this but other critics I know really enjoyed it. I just wanted the stripped down

badness of prey, which I just thought was terrific. Now we get to The Running Man, Tom Jones Music, playing new entry in number two. It's also number two in America. David on Patreon, I saw The Running Man the night before it was released and I'd been looking forward to it for some time.

I love the original Arnie film. it's an absolute blast of cheesy goodness and I was shocked when I went back to read the original king slash backman book because that was the name he was using at the time to find out how far away from the source material they had moved. When the trailer came out for Edgar Wright's version

though it was clear that they were doing a faithful adaptation of the book and that is almost exactly what we get here. The film has Ben Richards meeting all the right people on his quest to escape, it hits all the beats of the book and is genuinely exciting and thrilling and then the ending happened.

Now, I don't want to go into spoilerville here, but I really liked the ending in the book. I caveat this with the addition that I thought the recent Long Walk film, another adapted book from the same collection by King, was a great adaptation until they switched up the ending for no apparent reason. Unfortunately, they have done the same with Running Man, and the ending left me feeling a little deflated. It was almost like they'd filmed the whole book ending, then test screened it, and were told to change it.

In the end, what we get is a rushed Hollywood ending which jumps about and makes very little sense and kind of ruined the whole experience for me. I know we need to keep in mind that it's not the book, it's a movie, but such a swerve at the end left me feeling disappointed in a film that could have been brilliant if it had just stuck to the source material for 10 more minutes. I think that it's fairly impressive that the film gets away with as much as it does, considering where we are and considering that it is, as we said, you know, it is basically a dystopian portrayal of America in which the divide between the rich and the poor is huge, in which medicine is no longer properly available, in which the place is ruled over

by an evil broadcast corporation who feed the public lies and propaganda. And all that is fun. And I do get the thing about the ending. I don't, as far as I understand, I don't think the ending was changed by test screenings. I think that was how the script was. I believe that to be the case. But the ending didn't spoil the film for me. And the more I think about the film, I said, I've now seen it twice, the more I like it.

Did you have a problem with the ending? No, no, not really. I could see how it would go either way. And I'm quite happy with the walking along the beach using the varnish on the boat. Yeah, yeah. That doesn't bother me. One thing I should say is, it's the, looking at the chart, which we have here in the script, it's 2,383,000.

And the number one is 2,384,000. Ooh. Yeah. That was close. Yeah. And in my mind, this is the number one movie. I did say to you, however, as I was reviewing the thing that is at number one, I said, it's rubbish.

It'll be number one next week. But only just. It's only just the number one. But not that that matters, because you're either the best-selling film or you're not. And that is number one here and number one in America. Now You see me. Now you don't. And Mohamed Shakir.

Sorry. No, no, no, that's it. You go ahead. Mohamed Shakir says, doctors, B.A. on a swimming red certificate and one-time winner of the TV quiz show, pointless, guessing the films of Lars von Tray. Thank you, Mark. Wow. I attended a double bill of the third in the Now You See Me franchise and the running man, the past weekend. On the former, I went in with the Good Doctor's review where he said it will likely find an audience and it made him want to hit his head against the brick wall. I found only one of those things to be true. I was in a screen that was around 75 to 80% full with my children who were very into the film. The crowd I was with were engaged and laughed a fair few times. I find the films akin to the Fast and Furious franchise where a group of street races with

heart go on missions. In the case of these films, substitute that with magicians. Whilst not the highest art form, I found the film passably entertaining and not difficult to follow because of everything being spelt out after each scene. And explained, and explained in great detail. The additional humour of Rosamond Pike committing to a role channeling her inner Jason Isaac's hello to him with a South African accent was funny in parts. The heist themselves were of no consequence and the interplay between the characters was mildly charming at best. The Running Man was the far better film of the two where it kept me on the edge of my seat

and surpasses the 1987 adaptation with Arnie, all the best of the redactor and the fine production team. Thank you, Mohamed, for the email. So, yeah, so I guess if you go and see it with a bunch of kids, you're going to enjoy it more than if you go and see it with a bunch of critics. Yeah, but, you know, it's also the Running Man certificate is, What is the running man certificate? Is it 15?

It must be a 15. But, you know, the running man is playing to a more limited audience in as much as it's, you know, it's a more grown-up film. So the fact that it's only been knocked off the top spot by whatever we think is $1,000, $1,000 is pretty impressive. I mean, I think the running man is a really interesting, good film. And yeah, the running man is 15. And now you see me, now you don't, I imagine, must be either a 12 or a peep.

now you see me now you don't is a 12 yeah so I think considering that you can pretty much anyone can go and see now you see me and the running man is 15 I'm going to say in my head the running man is number one right I mean charts don't really work like that but I understand the I understand the point the ideological point I love the fact you nearly said I understand the bias and then you stopped yourself well bias there's also bias but you know it's like looking at the top 10 in the hit parade and thinking, well, I know Johnny Bongo's is at number one, but I'm going to pretend that Elvis is number one. So that's what I think is number one.

Apologies to anyone who's actually called Johnny Bongos. That's a very specific apology. Well done. It is. A personal one. Okay. Back in just a moment with Mark. Reviews of The Carpenter's Son, Wicked.

for good, but more importantly, your special guest is Alexander Scarsgaard after this. This week on dinners on me, I sat down with Real Housewives of Salt Lake City icon Meredith Marks at Boteca Louie in West Hollywood, which, by the way, is not where I expected to find her less than 12 hours after DJing at a club literally down the street until like 1 a.m. I rolled in with my coffee. She rolled in with sunglasses. serenity, and zero hangover. We ordered salads because we're responsible adults, but the conversation that was completely unhinged in the best way.

We talked about loyalty, public feuds, and what happens when your real life becomes reality TV content? And then she dropped this. Everybody's marriage or children is going to be huge, like always. Understandably. But now I'm deciding consciously just so everyone knows, and if any of my castmates are listening, you guys should know this too and my producers.

I have decided not to let that ever trigger me again because they weaponized it one time too many. Elegant, chilling, slightly therapeutic. So if you're into emotional growth served with the side of housewives level honesty, the Meredith Marks episode is out now. So in that brief interlude, we've established that there's certainly at least one Johnny Bond

single. You've annoyed. He runs bingo classes. Well, not classes, events. Johnny bongo's bingo. Yes. Also, no one is quite sure why bingo the game is called bingo. But the most likely scenario is that bingo is an exclamation.

Like, oh, and then bingo. Yeah. That went over to the game. There is some suggestion that it might be have something to do with brandy, but. Really? I couldn't quite follow that mind of thinking. When you're doing, I've never played bingo, when you're doing it, and you get, you get all the numbers, you know, top of the house, 64, two fat ladies, 33.

And then, but you don't shout bingo, do you? You shout house. Yes, I think that's right. But maybe not at bongo's bingo. Maybe you shout, bingo bongo, bing bong, bong, or something like that. I don't know. We'll take bingo instructions from the bingo bing bong and bingbong won the Eurovision song contest for Finland in 1974. Wasn't that Tim Tim Timmatom?

Tim Timmatom. Ding dangadong, boom bangabong. So any bingo experts, we would certainly take some tuition here at correspondence, curbinameo.com. This week's guest is Alexander Scarsgard, son of Stelandskard, served in the Swedish Navy, was in Zulander, Generation Kill, True Blow. Melancholia, Big Little Lies, Longshot, Godzilla versus Kong, passing, The Northman, which I think he was also a producer of, Infinity Poole. James, James! Wait for Mark to shout.

James! He's actually written down. Played tech mogul Lucas Mattson in succession, for which he was nominated for two Primetime Emmy Awards and a Golden Globe Award. And now, he stars as a biker. In the new film, Pillion, you can hear from Mr. Scarsgard, after this clip. Gosh, you're tall.

Uh, sorry, Peggy, uh, Peggy, Peter, um, nice to meet you. Ray. How do you do? Um, time for a quick drink? Uh, no, thank you. Not when I'm writing. No, of course not. I was I thinking. Good lad, yeah.

Well, boy, something soft. We better get going. You, uh, you don't sound local, Ray. Where's home? Chislehurst. Chislehurst. It was very nice I've never thought of Colin as a chiselher sort of person

No, hell's her about All right Go on Colin And that is a clip from Pillion I'm delighted to say They've been joined by one of its stars Alexander Scarsgaard Hello Alexander, how are you, sir

Very good, Simon, how are you doing? I'm doing all right I'm in cold London, where are you? I'm in sunny Los Angeles Well, ain't that the treat then I'd feel very, very jealous Yes. It's very good to speak to you. Introduce us to Pillion, introduce us to your character, Ray, because there's lots to work at here. Pillion is a Domcom about...

Hang on. Well, stop, stop, stop. Is that a new concept, domcom? I haven't heard that before. I've really been plugging it lately, but it hasn't gotten any traction at all. I've been trying to coin this new term, this new phrase, but I'm getting zero traction, but I haven't given up quite yet. what does it mean well it's it's it is a subdom relationship movie about a it's a movie about a subdom relationship but with some classic rom-com tropes and elements in it i think it's an it's a delicious hybrid of bdsm and rom-com okay so dom com in other words a domcom exactly so just because this was initiation for me uh doms and subs just can you just explain that please forgive the naivety of the question, but just unpack that bit. Well, so Ray, my character, is a member of a biker gang, a gay biker gang, and Spots, Colin,

played by Hairmeling, at a pub, and Harry is quite inexperienced. He hasn't really been in a relationship before. Ray, who is dominant, who likes having a submissive, is at the moment, not in a relationship, but he spots calling across the room and picks up Colin's energy and can feel that this is a potential sub for me. So he approaches and he's quite right about that. Colin is submissive, wants to get into this relationship. But it's also, again, Colin's first foray into this. So it's a discovery for him, a journey, finding out learning from Ray what the rules are. basically, what the parameters are of this relationship.

It was a journey for me, too, Alexander, I have to say. So we had Harry Melling on the show a couple of months ago to talk about Harvest, which was his latest film, and he's fascinating to talk to. So a lot of the film we spend with him and with his family, you see his father and his mother who is dying, and we see him in a barbershop quartet, so we know quite a lot about him. We don't really know much about Ray. What did you understand about Ray?

because he's very enigmatic. Which I really enjoyed. And I really enjoy the fact that at no point of the movie, did you have the classic reveal or the moment where Colin discovers that Ray has a husband or a wife and kids? There's no big climactic moment like that. And I really enjoy that

because I feel like that can sometimes be a trope in an artificial construct in a script. And I love the fact that, yeah, Ray is incredibly enigmatic. He is very private in this relationship with Colin and with other people in general. Obviously, I, in preparation, had some thoughts and ideas about Ray's past and who he is and what he wants out of a relationship. But I also noticed that I couldn't be too dogmatic about those ideas that I had or the image I had of Ray because it also changed quite a bit as we were shooting the movie

when I was working with Harry Melling, who's just a delightful human being and a terrific actor. And I discovered a lot about Ray during the process of shooting the film. And the challenge was to kind of try to instill enough life into Ray and for the audience to hopefully, if not root for them to be together. At least we didn't want them to be like, Ray is cold and abusive and please call it, get away from there. It was important to have the audience, at least at times, be invested in this relationship

and root for them because I feel like that the journey would be more interesting if the audience is invested in these guys. There's a very, very awkward meal that you and Harry Mellings character have with Harry's parents. It's just, it's painful. It's painful to be at that table with you guys. And there is a moment when Robin's mother, as I mentioned, is dying. So she is really concerned about her son's future. And she says to Ray, well, she calls him a very strong word, beginning with C, which I will not use for this podcast. But part of me thought, is she right? Because a parent concerned about their son. might look at Ray and think, no, no, no, no, no, this is all wrong. What I loved about the way Harry wrote that scene was the fact that I could, and hopefully people when they watch the movie, can see both points of view.

I could definitely sympathize with Peggy, Colin's mother, who is concerned. She's not judgmental, and she tries to be supportive of this relationship, but she also feels that her son, not be happy and she's potentially right that at that point there might be something he's missing from this relationship. So I can again sympathize with that but I also defend Ray. Ray doesn't want to be at that at that Sunday roast. No he does not. He explained he's again very very private believes in discretion and says to Colin I don't think this is a good idea on but Colin kind of

convinces him and talks him into going to this thing. And Ray says to pegging the scene, like, it's not for you to like or not like. It's between us. We're two consenting adults in this relationship. And if Colin wants to be with me, then it's his prerogative. What do you think is relevant? So I can, again, see both points of view. And that's what I think charges the scene that makes it interesting.

How close is it to an abusive relationship, do you think? Because when Colin has to ask for a day off, for example, you know, it's maybe that's where the discomfort comes from. Yeah. And we wanted it to be, it's based on a book called Box Hill. And in the book, it is more abusive. It's, especially in the beginning of the relationship, it's much darker, much more abusive. And we didn't want it.

It was very important to start the relationship. Sometimes in sub-dom relationships, it's a written contract. So it's very clear. and we wanted to avoid that because it's for the audience more engaging and if you're not sure what the rules are and you're discovering with Colin what the rules are. But it was also very important to have, there's a moment in the first hookup scene

when Ray says, what am I going to do with you? When Colin answers whatever you want, which is a verbal consent of saying, I'm you're submissive, you can do whatever you want with me. The other Harry that you're mentioning is Harry Leighton, who's, this is his debut feature.

So when you got the script and you learned that Harry Lytton, It hasn't made a movie before, but he wanted to make this movie with you. You agreed because what was it? Was it the script that just made you think, I want to be, Ray? This sounds great fun. Yeah, I didn't know anything about Harry Light and I. He directed a couple of short films that I hadn't seen at the time. So when it came to me, it was, yeah, it was a script by a first-time filmmaker.

But I was just incredibly impressed by it and surprised by it. Because when I started reading it, and I heard that it was a movie about a, BDSM relationship by I was really impressed by how sweet and tender it was and how funny it was and how awkward it was at times and it wasn't shocking for the sake of shocking it was it just felt grounded and real and I believed in these characters and I rooted for them and then talking to Harry again he was 30 years old when it was his first feature but He just instilled a lot of confidence in me in his vision for how he wanted to tell the story and his thoughts on Ray and on the relationship. So I really didn't hesitate after that first conversation.

I really believed in him. You're trying to tell it as a Domcom. It's kind of a Christmas. Is it a Christmas film as well? It has some Christmas in it, Alexander. Yeah, it's a classic Christmas domcom. Would you, I don't know whether you have big family Christmases back in Sweden. I don't know. Will you expect family feedback on this film?

Yeah, we do. I have a big family. I have seven siblings, and we celebrate Christmas together. So it's usually 30 people in the house. So it's chaotic. And I am very, dad has already seen the film, but I'm excited to show the rest of them. What did he say? What did he say? Well, he went up and kissed Harry Lighten on the mouth after the screening. So I think that's a good sign, hopefully. clearly it was quite turned on I need to there's a thought I just need to say

before we finish that I interviewed Peter Sarsgaard for the September 5 movie last year which I loved very much and he's terrific and he said in the interview that he has given up

in interviews saying that he's nothing to do with the Scars Guards because they all think that Peter Sarsgarde must be related to the Scarsguards even though his origin story is Danish and yours is Swedish

so he just says yes that's right we're a fantastic family I've got all these brothers so he goes along with it so if peter sales guard turns up at your family Christmas now you know the reason why yeah he's we actually met for the I've never worked with Peter I think he's a phenomenal actor but we saw each other we were at a dinner party in New York a couple years ago and that was the first time we met and saw each other across the room and just like walked up to each other and hugged and said oh brother it's so good to find him meet you because

you know I also get that a lot like oh I just worked with your brother Peter he's So, yeah, yeah, if not blood, but he's definitely family now. Yeah. What do we see you in next, Alexander, after Pillion? A movie called The Moment that I shot in London earlier this year with Charlie XX. So that's kind of, yeah. All right. Well, I guess we've got to the point in the year where we finished the interview by wishing you a happy Christmas.

It sounds as though yours is going to be a full-on family Christmas. It would be very memorable. It would be very memorable. It will. Alexander, thank you so much for your time today. Much appreciate it, Simon. Thank you so much. Thank you.

Thanks. Alexander Scarsgaard, talking about Pillion, always nice to speak to a top actor who I don't think is, I haven't spoken to him before. Have you interviewed Alexander Scarscar? No, no, I haven't. I mean, I've admired him from a distance. I have seen Pillion.

I should also point out that I haven't heard the interview that was just broadcast. Because we are recording the show in the morning, and you're doing the interview. in the evening. He's annoyingly in America, and Americans don't get up at this time, but they will get up a little bit later on. Exactly.

So how did it go, Simon? How was the interview? Well, I was, you know, I found it satisfying. Did you walk the full length of the counter? Did you discuss the intricacies of S&M authorship? I hope not. Did you talk about bikes? Was there a lot of talk about bikes?

Yes. My guess is that there was a lot about bikes. and your review will be next week. But I am just going to put on record the fact that I have always disliked picnics. And as a result of watching this film, I have resolved to never, ever go on a picnic ever again. Hot dog, sir? That was unnecessary. Pilling will be reviewed next week, by which time, Mark, will also have heard the interview. Indeed, so will I, because I haven't actually conducted the interview.

yet. So Alexander Scarsgaard talking to us this week, the movie will be reviewed next week. However, you can review The Carpenter's Son. The Carpenter's Son, which is, well, if you, I mean, how to describe it, if you go to the BBFC site, which I find is now the most brilliant way of starting almost anything, 15 for strong, bloody, violence, injury, detail and horror. And they call it a family, they say a family travelling through Roman Egypt is targeted by an evil entity in this biblical horror film. Now, I have to say, hats off to the BBFC, because their sort of thumbnail synopsies are becoming real works of art, not least because they correctly say a family, because names are in absentia, targeted by Evil Ente, Biblical Horror Films.

Is it a horror film? The tagline is Deliverous from Evil. It's written and directed by Lofty Nathan, who is Egyptian-born, London-raised, US-based, and it is based, a according to what we say at the beginning, inspired by the infancy gospel of Thomas. Now, do you know the infancy gospel of Thomas? No, would be the first line. Is the gospel of Thomas? Is that in the apocrypha? Is that one of those? The infancy gospel of Thomas is an apocry. And I didn't know what it was either. I looked it up. Do you want to know what Wiki says? Is it in the apocrypha? It is an apocryphal gospel about the child. Does that make it in the, apocrypha. I don't quite understand what the termination, what the, how you define in the

apocrypha. Well, there is a, there is a book, which is included in some Bibles, which is the apocryph, which is all the somewhat disputed texts. But isn't Revelation's Apocrypha? No, no. Okay, fine. Okay. Well, that's fine. Well, definitely happened. All for real. Oh, it did. Okay, fine. Yes. And then the beast with nine heads came out of the body of the of a worm. Yeah, and the number of the beast was six, six, six, six, six, six, six is the number of the beast, six, four is the bloke next door. Anyway, so the infancy gospel of Thomas, according to Wiki, apocryphal gospel, it says

apocryphal gospel, so about the childhood of Jesus, probably dating mid to late second century, early Christian writers regarded the infancy gospel of Thomas as inauthentic and heretical. Eusebius called it heretical fiction in the third book of his fourth century. church history, and Pope Galatius, the first, included it in his list of heretical books in the 5th century. There is a sort of thumbnail synopsis of the gospel, which is fairly bonkers, includes a young Jesus bringing claybirds to life, and more alarmingly, cursing a boy who becomes a corpse, cursing another boy who falls dead, cursing his parents who become blind, resurrecting the two boys, healing the blind parents, resurrecting a friend who fell from a roof,

and healing a man who's chopped his foot off with an axe. So, lots to work from. see sue where are you exactly although it should be said that what's in the film bears only the most fleeting resemblance to any of the synopsis stuff i've read this and what this does have is everyone's favorite screen crazy nicholas cage he is the carpenter fcaa twigs is the mother who we meet at the beginning of the film in an act of very apparently violent childbirth followed swiftly by escaping from babies being thrown onto a bonfire So it sets its table out quite quickly. Cut ahead several years. Noah Jupe, I think it's Jupe, not Jupe, Jupe, Noah Jupe, who you may recognize from a quiet place and from Honeyboy. He's also in Hamnet. He is the now teenage son.

So the son seems to have powers that he doesn't fully comprehend. He also doesn't understand the true nature of this strange girl who sort of befriends him with devilish consequences. Meanwhile, Nick Cage goes full horse po-face in a manner that's suggesting that no matter what the origins of this are, is he's taking it all very seriously. Here's a clip. What awaits us when we turn it last to death?

That my faith endure. Faith. My only strength to bear. Against the devil itself. For years, we live in hiding. Driven from every home. There's a power he cannot understand. The power I cannot contain.

is he my father you put that in your mind I've got the hair I've got the teeth I mean it's what does he look like when he's when he's doing those lines

what's he well you've seen the poster he looks like he looks like oh he looks like bedraggled Joseph okay that's what he looks as I said the whole thing is it's all you know no names no pactro it could be any family

Any family, one of whom happens to be that probably, he's not the son of God, he's just a very naughty boy. So, look, it's an odd movie. Like Nick Cage's performance, it can't quite decide what it's trying to do. I mean, I love the fact that Nick Cage just does that accent. It just isn't regardless. It's like, there's no, we're fine, we're just going to do that. And actually that kind of makes sense because it's like, okay, you're not doing it in a foreign language. You're not doing the Mel Gibson.

let's do Aramaic. You're doing, no, Nick Cage is going to talk like a surfer. But the problem with it is, I think that the film falls between several stools and ends up pleasing no one. So on the one end, you've got the religious audience who flocked to see the Passion of the Christ. The Passion of the Christ was a biblical horror movie. Let's be absolutely clear about this. It was a torture porn movie that happened to be welded around the story of the crucifixion. And, you know, the audiences went absolutely mad for it, partly because it was so extreme that people,

had a very, very visceral reaction to it. In the case of this, as soon as it was announced what was happening, some of the religious groups were up in arms saying, oh, it's blasphemous because of its source and because of its casting and just because of everything, although there is nothing in the film could sensibly be described as blasphemous by anybody. The other problem is that there isn't much else either.

And where is the passion, regardless of what one thinks of the Passion of the Christ politically and all that kind of thing, it's a very, very good gore movie. I mean, it is grueling. it is like watching somebody be tortured for two hours in a way that he's viscerally convincing and I think it's a pretty well-made film there are things that you can dislike about it but it is a very effective torture horror movie in the case of this there are moments of horror but they are interspersed with long bouts of reflective wandering around and arguing and suffering

and occasionally shouty-shouty occasionally sort of big you know bigger Nick Cage performances. It's at its best when it looks like it's about to turn into something really strange. And it's at its worst when it then turns into the thing that is turning into and you go, oh no, it's just that. It's just run of the mill, uga booger. So if you were to be really charitable, you say, well, there's a coming of age movie in there. It's about a teenager who's got powers. They don't understand being awkward. I mean, that's a kind of, I suppose there's a carry connection there. But of course the problem is he decent about that. It is, you know, as I said, based on the infancy gospel. And so therefore, we know it's not really about just an ordinary person

facing adolescent problems. It's about the son of God discovering that, you know, he's got these powers. And the locations are very good. I mean, it's shot quite handsomely. It looks good, eye-catching, it's got an evocative use of music. The thing is, just considering the potential, it was far less exciting than I wanted to be. I mean, I, full pun intended, I'd love to be able to tell you that it nails it, but it is far less of a temptation that it sounds. Thank you very much.

I'd like that on the poster. Very good. But here's the thing to remember. Actually, can I just say before it? Here's the thing to remember. Deliver us from evil is a really good tagline. It is a good tagline, isn't it? It's a good tagline.

My key thing is this. I'm very lukewarm about it. And remember, I am the target audience. I am the horror film fan who's very interested in church-going religion and a massive fan of Nick Cage. I'm the target audience.

And I think if I was underwhelmed by it, I mean, horror fans are going to go, why are we just wandering around for a long time? When's the horror starting? And then when it starts, it's like, oh yeah, well, it's not really, because it's not really a horror film. and it's not really a biblical epic and it's not really anything it's oh okay I just think it should have

it should have had a lot more bite to it is there any music by the carpenters in it annoyingly no and nor nor indeed do they have Leonard Nimoy singing if I had a hammer well I just think it sounds as though Jambalaya crawfish by Philly Gumbo, sung by Karen Carpenter, would have worked quite well in some of the difficult scenes. Or superstar? It's yesterday once more. We'll say goodbye to love.

Boom. And if you go to the cinema and you're the only person there, it would be solitaire. There you go. Non-stop Carpenters comedy. This week. I wasn't on top of the world when I came out. I understand.

I should probably draw a veil then. That's the carpenter sun. Okay, and if our quips there weren't comedic enough, let's try elevating things a little bit further as we go up to our laughter lift. Okay, dodgy to start with. Hey, Mark. Hey, Simon. What have Monica Lewinsky and Donald Trump got in common?

I can't believe this is where the laughterlift is beginning. That's right. Both of their first names have six letters in them. So changing the subject. And moving on, Mark, I was just eating my healthy lunch yesterday when I realized cottage cheese is not, in fact, a cheese. It's just occurred to me. Good.

Better, better, better. I've only just done the maths on the first joke, incidentally. Yeah, I mean, it turns out that that bubba isn't that bubba, incidentally. So that joke is now out of date from the news story. Okay. And, hey, Mark, I'm not sure. Yeah, I'm not sure if you caught. the news that a lovely new museum has opened in Cairo for all their ancient Egyptian treasures.

Pride of Place will be a mummy found encased in a thin wafer, thin shell, okay, will be a mummy found in a thin wafer thin shell filled. It's too much filling and too much thinness. Go on. A mummy found encased in a thin wafer, thin shell filled with hazelnut chocolate and chopped hazelnuts on a paper tray and covered in gold foil. I can't. He is Pharaoh Roche.

Thank you, but too much thinness. By the way, Mark, there reminds me, not everyone thinks Cleopatra is beautiful, but that's how Julius Caesar. Yay! Where do you think that last joke came from? You?

Oh, from Charchile 3? No, Max Miller. A music core performer, 1894 to 1963. But that's good. Not everyone thinks Cleopatra is beautiful, but that's how Julius Caesar. Thank you very much. Very good.

I can't wait to do this live at our special live show with lots of top jokes. Is that December the 7th? I think it's up past two. Prince Ed with Theatre. Tickets available. Thank you very much. More in a moment. Okay, we get to Wicked for Good in just a moment. A quick email here from Ian.

A long-time listener, second-time email, the first being with regard to Clifford the Big Red Dog, and the question of whether his bigness or his redness is the more disturbing attribute. So it seems I can only be motivated to correspond by red things. I'm firmly in Camp Kerr mode when it comes to disdain for rotten tomatoes, and its role in the impureification of online film discourse. Good. However, on a point of order, Mark often cites the example of one critic loving a film

and another hating it, producing an unrepresentative three-star average as proof of Rotten Tomatoes' flaw. But that is not quite accurate. Rotten Tomatoes doesn't average scores. It calculates the percentage of positive reviews. So seven positive reviews out of 10 equals 70%. 46 out of 50 equals 92% and so on.

In Mark's example, the film would score 50%, half-liked it, which is actually more representative of a divisive film than a three-star average. The real issue is that Rotten Tomatoes Flattens Nuisance. Two films could both score 90%, but one might average 7 out of 10, good, not great, while the other average is 9.5 out of 10, a masterpiece. Tomatoes treats them the same

because it only cares about positive versus negative, not intensity. Personally, I'd rather watch an 80% film where fans rave than a 98% film with lukewarm positive reviews. So, yes, let's keep bashing rotten tomatoes for its toxic influence, but let's be clear about what it is actually getting wrong. Keep up the great work. Sorry for the pedantry, so long, and thanks for all the fish, Ian. I appreciate the pedantry, and it's a good point well made, but the end result is the same. It's just aggregating nonsense. correspondence at kerberdemeo.com there is a very big film which is out this week you'll have heard about it has anyone noticed i think so it's it's kind of everywhere on all the posters and that kind of thing so wicked for good which is um essentially the second act of the now i confess so i've obviously i haven't seen the stage stage show as i said before it's the second act of the 2003 stage musical by stephen schwartz and winnie holtzman which was itself it

based on inspired by a novel by Gregory McGuire. Again, let's start with the BBFC. The first film was PG for mild threat and discrimination and 160 minutes long. Second film is PG for mild threat, violence, innuendo, language, and 137 minutes. What did I say, the first one was 160 minutes long? Did I say 160 or did I say 137? First one was 160, this is 137, but they're both PG. So if you've been living in a bubble, this is the musical that follows the different lives of Elphabwe.

played by Cynthia Arevo, who will become the Wicked Witch of the West. And Galinda, played by Ariana Grande, who becomes Glinda. Also features Jonathan Bailey as a handsome Fierro, whose loyalties are torn. And Jeff Goldblum, as Jeff Goldblum demonstrating to us that he's basically been playing the Wizard of Oz all his life. We just didn't notice. That's true. Now, fine. Okay, there we are.

That's the role. We also have Michelle Yo, as the headmistress, who initially recognizes, Elphba's powers. So part one and part two were shot concurrently, directed by John M. Chu, of course, he made crazy rich Asians. Part one, again, everyone knows this, but just in case you've been living under a rock, opens with the declaration of the wicked, which is death, much jovial rejoicing about the fact that no one mourns the wicked who die alone. And Glinda is the kind of beaming MC. And then someone shouts, but hang on, weren't you friends with her? and then the whole film then goes back to the beginning and tells that story.

We will revisit that beginning at the end of part two. So part one ended with the show-stopping, Defying Gravity. There was a thing that Schwartz said, we found it very difficult to get past Defying Gravity without a break because that song is specifically written to bring a curtain down. And that was a high note. I mean, the first film ended on the highest of high notes, and it was that.

And it's worth saying that there isn't anything in the second film that will top that, but it's a little bit like the thing I always cite, which was Joseph Heller was once interviewed by a newspaper writer who said, the thing is, you'll never write anything better than Catch 22, and he replied, few people will. So I think that kind of applies here. So this picks up sometime after the first film, Elfra is now outcast and is known as the Wicked Witch of the West.

she is being painted as the scourge of the Emerald City. So she is now sort of fully being demonised. Glinda is now a shiny, happy, shiny celebrity, a supposed beacon of good, watched over and manipulated by, had been issued by Michelle Yeo's character, and of course by the wizard himself, who is the sort of orchestrator behind all of this. Animals thoroughly subjugated, outcast in Oz.

The population are being fed a diet of lies, and propaganda. Wow, it sounds like the running man, propped up by these mythical incarnations of good versus evil, which are being used effectively to keep everybody on side. Here's a clip from the trailer. You can wave that wand all you want, but you have no real power. I'm a public figure now. People expect me to fly. Be encouraging. You can't resist this. Who could? You know we could.

There's a house, and it's flying through the sky. I'm off to see the wizard. Bring me the room of the wicked witch of the west. So I have proof that she's dead. Stop this. It's gone too far. Elphaba, they're coming for you. So you heard a little burst in there of No Good D Goes on Punish, which actually is a real earworm bang. So I went into the first film really trepidaciously because I hadn't seen the stage.

I knew that the stage musical was a big hit, but I went in with a heavy heart also thinking about how long the film was. And I was just knocked out by how much I enjoyed it. I was really surprised, not least because it has genuine substance amidst all the pizzazz and the earworm show tunes. Because there's a lot of kind of quite radical things going on that are set up in the first film. There's a whole thing that are people being rejected because they're different. The mistreatment of animals, which has got a very sort of Orwellian thing to it, the way in which the suppression of language is used to control people. And we even get the speech in which the wizard basically says, you know,

that you can bring a divided land together by giving people a scapegoat and the common enemy. And that strikes a particularly contemporary note did back then when it came out a year ago and still does now. So the first film was long, but it flew by. This is shorter, although I have to say it doesn't feel shorter, crucially, because it is, it's darker. It's, it's got into the sort of the lot, the far less jolly weeds of the scapegoating of Elphaba, the manipulation, the full-on manipulation of the wizard, who is now just 100% bad. I always was, but at the beginning you're not quite sure. And the generally kind of candy-colored corruption of the land of Oz.

Now, the thing with the first one was the vocal sounded great because they were recorded live. Apparently, they used the same technique that they were using in Les Miserables, and we had a discussion on the show about that. That wasn't the first time that had been done. There had been other precedents for it. But the songs are good,

and they are performed brilliantly by fantastic singers. As I said, there isn't anything that's going to top defying gravity, but it's kind of like saying there's nothing that's going to top Sugar Baby Love in the Rubet's back catalog. He's like, what are you going to do? The director has cited as influences, Spielberg's hook, although I think that's really just to do with the size of the sets, just, you know, we're going to do physical sets. I think that's all that is. But Pleasantville and the Truman Show, and I think those two things are quite telling, because what they tell you is that this is a kind of, this is an artificial reality in Oz, that the places, you know, it's all happy plastic smiles. It's really to do with the difference between what you see and what's actually going on. And what I said in the first film, It was a bit like kind of steampunk metropolis meets MGM. This is much more in that kind of, oh, everything is to do with artifice.

And because on one level, it is a story about brainwashing. It is a story about corruption. And it is a story, particularly in this second act, about a witch hunt. And it's about how the public need to be given baddies in order that they can like the goodies. All this is quite expressly stated. and it's kind of, it's quite dark subject matter. Again, everything is handsomely shot, although, again, a lot less, I mean, there's a lot of pizzazzes, a lot of stuff going on, but the whole tone is generally much darker than the first one. And I think the thing that you

have to think about it is this is very much the second act. I mean, nobody, I would imagine, very few people are going to go and see Wicked for Good without having seen Wicked. I mean, Wicked is all over streaming services anyway, and if you are going to see Wicked for Good, do watch Wicked again just so you're up to speed. I know some people know the whole thing off by heart and they won't need to, but it seems foolish to see the second part

without seeing the first part because it would be like walking into the theatre and seeing the second act of a show which you can't really assess without the first because I think that it is really one film. It is one continuous film in which the things that are set up in the first film have to be worked through in the second film.

Now, the other thing about the second film, second act is that it's got to do the slightly more complicated job of tying the narrative against the arrival of Dorothy in Oz. And so there are key beats that they have to hit in which you effectively see Dorothy and the friends from Wizard of Oz from the story that we know in circumstances that the narrative of wicked is then contriving to refashion. So the the arrival of the house landing on the witch the that why are we in the castle the build there's a very funny bit about the building of glinda's flying orb which is meant to look magical but is in fact a kind of steampunk thing that works with with machinery we even get the

actual building of the yellow brick road which elphabar is trying to disrupt it's like you know it's it's like remember when they were building that bypass and people were trying to stop them building the bypass you know there's kind of that going on there there there there there are also some very neat narrative twist, anyone who's familiar with the wicked narrative, which is most people in the world, not me, will know these already. But you kind of get origin stories of characters that you know from Wizard of Oz. I mean, one of which I didn't realize until the very, very end. And then Julie, my friend, the photographer, said, but of course you recognize from that from that shot when you saw them, when you saw them splayed out. And I went, oh, no, I didn't. I didn't realize that that was

how that was going to happen. I mean, so there were things that were tied up. very, very neatly. So honestly, it's not the rip-roaring blast that the first film was, but then it is the second act and it's not meant to be. And it is dealing with stuff, which is, which just is darker. And I think that as the second half of the overall arc, I think it works really, really well. I know that some people are a bit like, well, it's not as good as the first film. But I think, I don't quite understand because they are, they are really the same thing. They are the two halves of the same story. And so I, having been, having gone into the first film and thinking, I'm not going to enjoy this, and then being knocked out by how much

I enjoyed it, I went into the second film thinking, okay, I know that I like this, and then being slightly surprised by how much darker it was. But thinking about the two of them together, I think that they are a remarkable achievement. And I don't have any, I don't have any, I don't have any, I don't have any, I don't have any issue with the fact that this is darker, even for all the pizzazz and all the stuff that's going on and believe me, there's plenty, plenty of stuff being thrown at the screen. But the, the underlying narrative is going to, to, to some darker places. And I think it does that quite, I think it does that pretty well. And like I said, I think that no good deed thing is an absolute banger, but it isn't defying gravity. And if you are offered the opportunity, therefore, to see the whole thing, the first one, break for coffee, the second one, that sounds as though it's the complete thing and that's the best way to see it, even though it's going to take five hours.

And I imagine that at places like the Prince Charles Theatre, that, the Prince Charles cinema, that is going to be a standard. You know, you go in, you do the first one, all 160 minutes of it, you come out, you have a coffee break, you go in, you do the second one, 137. minutes of it. And I think that when seen together, the second one will seem more solidly corner pocket success than perhaps it does as a standalone. When you've seen it, we'd love to know what you think. Correspondents at covenabower.com. We have time for a quick what's on. So here is Mike. Hello, Simon and Mark. This is Mike from the Membrana Film Festival. Membrana is a Latin word for film and we are very excited to dig deep into the roots of the magic that is filmmaking as we celebrate the very best in global independent cinema and its filmmakers. The event will be on November the 29th and 30th at

the Coltplex Cinema in Manchester. Oh, okay, that's it. That's minimalist, certainly, but well recorded. The idea that there's a Latin word for film makes me just pause on that because they wouldn't have had such a thing. So how does that work out? Yeah. The Latin word for film. It's like, is there a Latin word for engine? I mean, film as in, you know, like the film of scum on a pond. Oh, okay.

Yes. So, and obviously membrane and all that kind of stuff. Yeah. So it kind of makes sense. Right. I kind of want more details now, don't I, really, I think. Yeah. And also, maybe a little, maybe a little, hazar.

And we wish the membrane of film festival all the very best. the cultplex cinema in Manchester. Mike, thank you very much indeed. I hope you haven't spoilt anything. As the end of take one, this has been a Sony Music Entertainment production. This week's take was Gem, Eric, Josh, Heather and Dom. The redactor was Simon Paul,

and if you're not following the pod already, please do so wherever you get your podcast. The Christmas live show, all the details. Fane.com.uk slash ker-mode hyphen mayo. That's Fane. dot co.uk slash kermode hyphen mayo. Come and join us on Patreon

because there's lots of cool and groovy stuff including secret film which Mark takes sometimes. Mark, what is your film of the week, please? Well, I think overall my film of the week is Wicked Parts 1 and 2 but for the very specifics, I think my film of the week is Sisu Road to Revenge.

Thank you very much, indeed for listening. Correspondence at Kerman email.com there'll be another podcast which has landed alongside this one which is called take two and we'll be with you again very shortly