Kevin Harvick's Happy Hour presented by NASCAR on FOX - Interview with Kyle Larson’s Crew Chief, Cliff Daniels

Episode Date: June 13, 2024

On Episode 34 of "Kevin Harvick’s Happy Hour," NASCAR legend Kevin Harvick sits down with Hendrick Motorsports Crew Chief, Cliff Daniels, for an engaging and insightful conversation that delves deep into the world of professional racing. Tune in for an exclusive look into Cliff’s illustrious career as he and Kevin recount memorable moments and share reflections. They discuss Cliff’s leadership that guided Kyle Larson to victory at Sonoma Raceway! The conversation goes beyond the excitement of the race. Kevin and Cliff explore the personal aspects of racing, including Cliff’s special relationship with Kyle Larson, highlighting the trust and communication that form the foundation of their partnership. Cliff also shares insights into the culture of Hendrick Motorsports, thoughts on Kyle Larson receiving a waiver, and more! Don't miss this captivating episode filled with expert analysis and the thrilling moments you love from the world of NASCAR! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I think it's important for people to know this. Yes, the result wasn't what we all wanted. But in my opinion, I still think it was a win. Welcome to Kevin Harvick's Happy Hour, presented by NASCAR and Fox. And we're happy to have Cliff Daniels in his studio today to give us a little more insight on who he is, how he got to where he is. I was so intrigued with everything that the five team and Cliff has created with the environment that they work in that I thought it would be a great idea, especially after a win to bring him in and fill him out on how he got to the point he is today in his career. Well, Cliff, I'm happy that you came into the studio because for me looking at that screen right there and trying to do a Zoom interview, never feels as good to me personally.

But congratulations. Thank you. On a great weekend. The last time I saw you was Saturday afternoon. You were sitting on the ground. Covered in dust. Standing on the side of the car. That's right.

Yeah. So I'll have a fuse or stain. to show from it won't come off. Well, that's the way that that goes. That's how it is. Tell me about the process this weekend because I view this as a weekend that you guys probably look forward to because you get practice. I know it's a new repave, but the practice and things that you can run through. Tell me how your weekend went leading up to the race.

So to your point, having the extended practice opens up the window of opportunity for some R&D stuff that you typically don't get to do. you know, on our normal impound style weekends, you have the approved impound adjustment sheet that, you know, it can almost be monotonous at times for us because it's just the same thing. Week in and week out, we don't get to change springs. You don't get to change geometries and things like that that you would be able to do at a test or on an open weekend like this. So it's kind of refreshing just to get back and be able to make some changes to the car. You know, and of course there's question marks about the repave, the tire durability. and all those things going into it. Plus, you know, just car set up things. Do we have the balance close, have the travels right?

All of that was so much, you know, fun and more refreshing to do. You kind of forget that, you know, as the way, you know, cup schedules are nowadays. We had a great time with it. And we wanted to make sure we could tackle enough things to get an answer and not try to stack so many things for practice that you kind of get lost, if that makes sense. So we had like two to three key objectives and hit those and, you know, it was nice to go through. And you kind of, I felt like you kind of could get lost in the shuffle with the, with the tires and the refires and everything that you, that you had going on in practice. But how much of that do you take forward? How much do you look forward to Chicago and Watkins Glen and some of those other places for your road racing program to use that session?

Yeah, it was, it was valuable in that sense just to make a couple key sensitivity changes to, you know, the platform of the car that, that kind of like I spoke to, we just don't get the opportunity to do weekly. And now that we have some of those boxes, you know, checked to a degree, it does give you a little more confidence in your approach to, to a Chicago and a place like that. You know, the crazy part, when you think about Sonoma of old, not necessarily bumpy, but the old pavement, you know, you had to have a lot of mechanical grip built into your car. So it was a little bit of an X factor with the repave, you know, it was kind of the mix between. you know, a good mechanical, you know, set up and approach. And then you have to have enough air pressure in your tires. It's a repave.

You have to have enough arrow in your car. It's going to matter. We're going to Chicago. That place is so rough and bumpy and the different transitions in and out of the pavement for the street circuit. That's kind of fun for us because you really get to build around the car mechanically. Yeah. Have enough grip in the shocks and the springs and the bars.

That'll be a little bit different than Sonoma. but still we learned, you know, a few key things that will help us. Good. Well, you go into, you go into Saturday, go for the pole, have the contact with the wall, you fix the car. Were you 100% confident that the car was fixed or was, was okay? I would say well above 95% if I put a number at it. You know, we were able to NASCAR did a great job of working with us and, you know, obviously being respectful to their process for inspection and what you can and can't touch on the car. But check the toe, checked all the control arms and toe links. Mechanically, it was fine. Body was pretty beat up. Yeah. You know, so we had a bit of body

work to do, but, you know, which NASCAR was there and helping us with that the whole time. Yeah, we had a little work to do, but we knew mechanically the car was sound. When you get to Sunday, you fire off, you go past, past Legano, or you drive up to Lugano and you kind of put yourself in position. And then it's just caution after caution after caution. Explain to us how that whole strategy kind of shook out and where you had to say, okay, Now we got to start playing our cards. I know the first caution was so early that it probably didn't matter. But as you got to the second one, how did that all unfold in your mind and build as you went towards the end of the race?

So the interesting thing, and of course only being a couple hours removed from it that I see in the rearview mirror is we spent a lot of time preparing last week for different scenarios of two versus three stops and those within themselves that wasn't contingent upon cautions. in the next year at road course races, you just don't see that many caution. So in a case like this, okay, is it going to be more offensive or defensive to be two or three stops? And then even within that, there was a couple, you know, kind of sub points to those. The unexpected factor for the whole field, to your point, was the caution. So the point I'm going to make is we had prepared so well looking at the two versus three stop and all of those things. We kind of identified there there won't be a. the time of the race that you're going to know if you have the right answer, but you have to commit

to the path that you're on. And if you decide early that you're going to be a two-stop car and then you punt and go three-stop, you're just going to sacrifice track position and what the two-stop could have resulted, you know, vice versa. If you pit early, planning to be a three-stop car and then you try to eliminate a stop, now you're going to be on defense. You have to get a full tank of fuel. You kind of get stuck in between. So the key principle we identified, whatever path you're on, stay on that path, own it. And that is what we ended up having to do once we stayed out during all the cautions. Other guys flipped the strategy a bit on us where they were going to net out with the track

position. We had to figure out how to get back on offense. So you play all that out through the first two stages. You start running the thing out. You've got a 10 or 11 second lead. And you know that when you pit, that's going to flip. Yes. Did you think that the car would run as fast as it did when it refired and you would make that gap

up as quick as you did? Were you confident that the gap was going to be able to be made up as you got towards the end of the race? Being dead honest, I was convinced we were going to finish third. Yeah. Dead honest. When the 17 and the 19 pitted, I believe we were 13 seconds behind them. They pitted early in the final fuel window. So, you know, as I'm thinking through this, okay, you know, if we pivot from the path that we're on and we pit with them, we're going to come out 13 seconds behind them on the same tires.

No chance. And really would have cycled through probably eighth. And on the same tires as everyone else ahead of us, I just don't know that we pass and get up through there. So once they put off ahead of us and you have the clean air advantage, Kyle was laying down some laps, big laps. Okay. All right. So we're not out of this yet. And we weren't hemorrhaging as much time as I thought we would have at the time. So, okay, let's keep going. We knew kind of the mathematical, you know, fall off numbers to hit to split the final stage. and getting closer to that was going to give us the best of both ends of our stint lengths. And once we kept getting closer to that, my concern was flirting with a caution.

Caution comes out and you haven't pitted your toast. So you're kind of weighing the risk versus reward of staying true to the path versus a caution coming out. So once we pitted came out, I knew there was a lot of disparity from our laps on tires to theirs. Like, okay, I can definitely see third and getting to them. We all know it's going to be tough to pass next gen car to road course. But Kyle was pretty, he was on it. Yeah. What's he like in the car during those situations?

Because we heard him say after the race that I didn't really know what was going on. I just thought everybody had to pit and didn't, didn't they tell me that I got to go? Does he ask a lot of questions or is he just a grinder? He was asking a lot of questions. And what he does very well is he will compartmentalize the current objective. So whatever the past objective was gone over, you know, that that's behind us. what is the current objective. So he was asking a lot of questions in a good way, you know, to understand who, who was on what tires around him, what our objective was going to be.

And, you know, it kind of took us a minute to get that communicated correctly to him. And once he knew what his objective was, we just kind of stayed quiet and let him go to work because he knew. He knew the mission. He knew what he had to do. Well, you guys did a, you did a great job. Is this, I know we, I've been fortunate. And one of the reasons that I was looking forward to doing this is because I felt like I got to know you guys in a way different way than just we did before, right? You've got a great group of people. You've got a great driver, but it's not really about the driver. It's not about you. It's about everybody. And it's just that magnificent group of people that just believes in the same

common goal. Where in the world did you get these leadership skills to put together a group of people like that? How did you put this team together? And where? Where in the world did you get these leadership skills to put together? and where did you acquire the leadership skills that you have? Because that's the part that stuck out to me. It's like this decision that you're talking about right now. It's like, well, this is our decision. We're going to be confident with it and we're going to own it. And if it's right, it's right.

And if it's not, we're going to figure out how to make it better next time. For sure. And you know this as well as anyone. To be successful in life or in sports, business, whatever it may be, you know, it takes the collection of just a great group of people that are like-minded. leadership matters, culture matters. Some people may not put as much emphasis on those things nowadays on the daily, but the most successful businesses and teams do.

And Rick Hendrick, first and foremost, you know, Mr. H is the number one beholder of that, you know, the way he conveys the culture at Hendrick Motorsports, the way he leads all the people. You know, he's always there to hold us accountable if we're not doing well, which is great. you know, that holding us to the accountability of performance, that's our job. That's what he should do. And then on the other side of the same coin, if things aren't going great and you need

some uplifting, he's the first guy there. So it has to start with him. And then, you know, me personally, I've been able to be surrounded by a lot of good people through my career path to this point. You know, at Stuart Haas, I got to know, so many of the great people there. And you and Rodney were on a heck of a run, you know, the second or the third year. that I was there and kind of seeing the way you guys led the culture there. I got to know Greg Zedipedelli very well.

Steve Addington was Stuart Cushie for the time. Got to know Tony pretty well. All of those relationships, you know, really started to mold me when, to be honest, I was probably a bit young and immature on some of the things to get to this level. And then fast forward to when I go to Hendrick Motorsports, being able to work with, you know, guys like Chad Canals, you know, Greg Ives, Alan Guss. of sin, Jeff Andrews, who probably doesn't get enough credit that he deserves, Jeff Gordon, Rick Hendrick, all those guys. They're great leaders. They're great competitors, but they're

great leaders of how to go about doing your job, how to cultivate the culture. And we've just tried to continue to embody that on the five team. And I think we're fortunate to have a young group of men that are racers first. And when you have the quality, you know, at this level of being a racer first, the grind is the grind. You know, it's not really, um, unforeseen to a lot of these guys. I mean, even when we get a 24, 24, 25 year old guy on our team and we get him from years and years of racing experience, the cup grind is just a different kind of grind. He knows how to do that. And then we teach him how to work on a cup car and how to, you know, do the things daily that you have to do to stay operating at a high level. Um, it's all about the people. And, and certainly with

what we have at Hendrick Motorsports and on the five team right now, uh, is special and, you know, we're really fortunate to be a part of it. You lived in those two different cultures. So you've got Stuart Haas that is kind of a hands-off approach from the ownership side and just more of a free reign to kind of just chase your direction. You walk into Hendrick Motorsports and it's part of the businesses that Rick runs. And I believe, you know, when you have that, it teaches those. those leadership skills and things that you talk about from a different culture than racing.

And to me, that is much more the style of racing that we live in now, the details and the business side of things that come from, whether it's the car business or whatever business it is, when you have a big business like Rick does and you have a leader like that that can lead other companies, I believe that makes your race team better. Is that a fair assessment? because of the fact of the structure and things that come with it, it gives you less room for failure, I guess, because it has a whole bunch of stopgaps in between to help the process.

Well said, and I agree with everything. The one thing that I will say that is always surprising to me at Hendrick Motorsports, and I've had to learn this in my journey there, Mr. Hendrick, of all the things that you just said that he does very well, And of course he does. The other thing that has been surprising to me is he is okay if someone fails,

if there is failure and you learn from it and get better the next day. So the culture of the details, the culture of the accountability, the performance, the winning, all of those things that cannot exist without understanding failure also very well. And I think when you look at the big teams in the sport and when you look at the journey for Mr. H and the path of Hendrik Motorsports. Yes, we look at the highlight reel, but you also have to think about a lot of, a lot of failures along the way that are equally as valuable. And those are growth opportunities.

Those are learning opportunities. And what's really cool to me is the culture that we have, we don't miss those. Right. We value the winning opportunities as much as we value the failure and the learning opportunities. And that makes for a very important. very well-rounded, you know, base of employees and teammates and everyone, you know, willing to pull in the same direction because you kind of get to see each other on a good day and a bad day. And, and hey, we can make it through both. We're not going to get too high on the good.

We're not going to get too low on the bad. We're always going to try to learn and improve. And know that when you win, the next most important thing is how do you win again? Right. And that's your process. And that's your culture. And if you fail, how do you get back to winning? Well, that's your culture. And that's your process. Right. It's really the same driving mechanism behind that. So I think one thing about your culture that was showcased tremendously over the past little bit was this whole double situation with Kyle putting the program together, putting Kyle in the IndyCar, getting a proper testing, going to the race, taking the team,

all the things that happened. But there's nothing that was covered more than the waiver. Yep. That came after you got done. but I want to talk about the process leading up to the races, talking about, you know, were there conversations of different scenarios and the way that things would happen, how it was handled, and you look at the releases and things that came out from Mr. Hendrick and the process that NASCAR went through in the time that it took because you got a driver that I felt like

was somewhat devastated from Kyle's standpoint. Not somewhat. He was devastated. He was devastated. He was devastated. and the way that he reacted with his performance and criticized himself. And then he's got the weight of the world on his shoulders and feels like he let the NASCAR side of the world down and felt like NASCAR was questioning his decision. And he was questioning, you know, based on, you know, the things that he said. So I feel like this is one of those scenarios where that the processes of Hendrick Motorsports kind of played through of having the depth of the people and the plan and everything that went through.

walk us through that whole process of the plan going in, what would happen if you had different scenarios and how it all transpired with the waiver and what you think about all of that. I think an interesting way to architect my response is going to be to start with the punchline for the end first. So the punchline for the end of it to me was the Monday after, you know, Kyle had put out his message to the world, devastated, you know, very upset. And in question all of it. And I could feel it on him the night when, you know, the race was called because the rain at midnight or 1230, whatever it was. I could really sense his disappointment. And, you know, sometimes with him, I can, I can let him kind of let him be. And, and he, you know,

works through things. But the next morning when I read what he wrote, I called him and I'll hit the highlights, but the message to me through all of this is it wasn't failure. Yes, failure is okay and all the things I said a minute ago, but it wasn't failure. And I told him there's a big difference between failure and sometimes things just don't work out. Failure would have been not doing it the right way and not checking every box along the way with a great team in Arrow McLaren, great people, great process, great organization, and a great team in Hendrick Motorsports. People process, the five team, everything that we had. Everyone along the way, to your point, checked so many boxes.

We had so many scenarios. We had so many plans. We had so much coverage of logistics to car details and seat liner swaps in case there was a Justin Algeyer. We had you, Kevin Harvick, in our car at North Booksboro. There were so many moving parts and pieces that the collective, you know, body of teammates and everyone at Hendrick Motorsports and, of course, Aaron McLaren with Kyle, checked every box. And so he went into it prepared on the IndyCar side, had done so much work,

you know, integration with the team, a lot of, you know, camaraderie with the team leading up to that. He showed me one time the report that he was getting from Aaron McLaren of all his little driver details. And he's studying and questioning and learning. And we did a lot of the same things on our end. Of course, you know, the Cupside is a little easier for him to kind of, you know, cruise through. But we had a lot. We had to be buttoned up on with Justin and scenarios on our end that, You know, I really wanted Kyle to know, and I think it's important for people to know this. Yes, the result wasn't what we all wanted. But in my opinion, I still think it was a win.

And here's why. Globally, it was a win. It was a great day for motorsports. Brought a lot of attention to IndyCar, brought a lot of attention to NASCAR. It really showcased what somebody like Kyle Larson could do and is a big part of our sport, as we know. But it also showcased how in, he had. never run a competitive lap in an Indy car until the green flag of the Indy 500 and was really one little breaking mistake on pit road entry away from a top five finish. That's incredible.

It is. That's a win. Then at the same time, okay, so how can you consider it a win that he didn't get to race the five car and all these things would be reasonable for somebody to ask me? Well, the reason is to win is the five team was prepared. We have a great relationship with Justin Algeyer. He showed a lot of courage to show up to get in our car. Ran great. We worked through. I told Justin before the race, we're going to go a lap down. I'm not worried about it.

So you don't need to be either. Like he was so worried, so worried about himself and his performance. I promise, once you get comfortable, we get you comfortable in the car. We'll talk through things. We're probably going to get it back. And we're probably going to be pretty competitive. And so the win for us is we put Justin in the car, go a lap down like we kind of predicted, work through that. He unlapped himself under Green, drives away from the leaders. That's incredible.

And the courage and the talent to do that is remarkable. And then by the end of the race, and I actually finally got a couple of good adjustments in the car, his last few restarts were fantastic. And then we're running 13th when the rain comes at lap 250. There's still 150 laps to go in that race. And we're in a very competitive spot where either A, Kyle can hop in the car, you know, without the rain or B, Justin has positioned himself very well. So globally, when I look at the whole thing, what a win for motorsports, for the opportunity, for so many people involved in that. And I really wanted Kyle to know that message the Monday after when he was second guessing everything that he had done along the way, which I just don't think was proper. He did so many things right along the way. Sometimes in life, things just don't work out.

What choice do you make to learn from it, to appreciate it and to move forward better? Yeah. Well, I like your assessment of the global assessment of everything because I felt like for motorsports in general, it was a great month. It was really everything. Even beyond that, it was just a great scenario for all parties involved. And I think when you look at the time and the effort and everything that went through, it was one little mistake, but it didn't matter.

Like, it didn't. The result didn't matter at that point. And I sent him a text, too, that when I saw that tweet, I was like, wow. I was a little taken back on just the things that he said. Yes. Because it was just so far wrong from the perception that I felt like everybody had. Agreed. And that also goes to show you the heavy weight that he puts on himself to perform and compete.

That, you know, what I hope is comments like yours and he's had many other conversations with people after the fact that he knows how much the motorsports community is behind him. Yeah. And believes in him. and, you know, he's a high risk, high reward driver. So, and at the end of the day, has never run an indie race before. Don't beat yourself up over one little mistake. It is reasonable in your first indie car race. You're going to have one little mistake.

Yes, it affected the outcome of your day. But otherwise, it was the top six, top five day going. That in itself is a win. Do it again? I hope he does. I hope so too. Yeah. I just don't see how, I don't see how you go wrong if you don't do it again.

And I think when you go back for the second time with all the experience and everything that, that has gone on. I think he's just going to go back and fire off in a spot pretty close to where he ended and have a chance to win the damn thing. I agree. I agree. And back to your point on the process, I think so much of a good process, you know, foundationally was laid getting up to this point that if you hit repeat for next year, the process is going to be that much cleaner. There's going to be that much more familiarity, that much more just awareness from everybody of how it's going to go. And maybe it doesn't rain out two years in a row. Right. Maybe it happens. And to your point, maybe, maybe it goes pretty well. So I'm a, I'm a win is your waiver guy. Do we need the dang waiver? Because what a disaster,

all that was to go through. And I'm not a fan of breaking your leg and getting a waiver. I think if you come back and you win and you put yourself in the playoffs, you deserve to be in there. But I just, I think, well, let's let's be honest, we poked a lot of holes in their process at the All-Star race. We've I've poked a lot of holes in the process with the waiver. Not to say that anybody was doing anything wrong. It's just I think it can be a lot better. I don't personally believe that we need the waiver at all. I think if you can win, you deserve to be here.

And when you're in. And stuff happens, right? If you decide that you're going to have a baby and you're going to miss this race and, you know, you miss the race and the car's there, I think the cars should have to beat every race. But I just, I think we can make it way simpler. I understand all those points completely. to be honest, I don't know that I have a hard opinion, you know, should we have a waiver or not,

what I can speak to. And this is kind of my perspective through the whole thing. I was kind of glad given that we have a waiver now, right? So provided that we have one, I was glad that NASCAR took the time to think through it and understand it. And I think there was kind of this overall perception from folks because it was taking a while that it was more emotional based. I don't know that to be true. So in my mind, giving NASCAR the benefit of the doubt, you know, their current series point leader missed, missed the start of one of their, you know, crown jewel events for, you know, we would all agree, Indy is probably the biggest race in the world. Is it Monaco? No. Is it Daytona? No, it's, it's really indie. So understandable from all sides for them to be thoughtful in, in evaluating

the yes or no piece of granting it to Kyle. But I was also thinking at the time, maybe moving forward, are setting the precedent now that they will be, you know, a bit more thoughtful moving forward on cases like this. You know, if you put on a chalkboard, guys that could be viable to run the double, you know, today, you know, Redick, Bell, Larson, those guys, if you had any combination of them, what I'm saying is more than one driver attempt to double next year, how does NASCAR handle that? And I think in this case, they've, they've set the precedent that they're going to have to be thoughtful on a case-by-case basis. You know, and then back to your point, do we need to need one or not, I don't know. And I can certainly, I can certainly argue no, if it's a when

and you're in type environment, which is really what we've created in the sport. I can see that. But under the context that now we do, I think NASCAR has set a good precedent that they're going to evaluate it closely. There was a lot of communication they had with us leading up to and after the fact. And I think they were right in taking some time to make a good decision. So we criticize our drivers all the time for being boring, for not having a personality, which I disagree with. Kyle Arson, he's not a super over-the-top personality. But he's one of the most popular drivers because he races.

Yes. And we talk about building stars all the time in our sport. NASCAR talks about it. TV networks talk about it. Everybody talks about building stars. The best way for these guys to be stars is to be in a race car doing things that they do outside of what we do here because we get in our bubble. And Kyle Larson is a bigger star today than he was a month ago because he went and did what he did at the Indy 500.

Of course. And it's not a knock to NASCAR. It's not a knock to anything that Kyle Larson does from a personality standpoint. But you said it earlier. Kyle Larson is a star because he is so dynamic and so spectacular in a sprint car. Yeah. In a go car. In a go car.

In a Indy car. He could go drive. He could go drive Zach Brown's McLaren's F1 car right now to test and be competitive. He could. And you know that. I know that and everybody in this business knows that. If you want these guys to be stars, you have to do. And Hendrick Motorsports was the exact opposite of what they are right now with Kyle. It's crazy. I know. They wouldn't let their drivers do anything. Because at that point in NASCAR,

you could make anybody a star if they were in Victory Lane and the sponsors were everywhere. Now you've got to find other avenues to do it. And you guys kind of broke the mold and flipped it around at Hendrick with Kyle by letting him do whatever he wants to do to a certain degree with structure, organization since common sense and all the things that come with that. I believe that all those drivers that you just named need to be right there with Kyle Larson every once in a while. Yep. Running the Indy 500,

running the 24 hours at Daytona, going to do things that are outside of that box. Having Christopher Bell not race sprint cars is an absolute fail for Joe Gibbs racing to build his stardom. Yeah. And, you know, I just, I think that I think that you hit the nail on the head right there with the,

with the N.500 stuff and what it means to racing. For sure. And I think you're spot on with what you're saying. And part of the reason that Kyle is able to achieve the popularity that he does, he still understands how to appreciate all of the aspects of motorsports that isn't just going to compete to win. It's the fans. It's the teammates, the team members. I've been very fortunate to interact a lot with him when he's running a dirt late model for Kevin Rumley or a sprint car with Paul Silva. and a lot of the dynamics that they have. He's such a friend and a teammate to every single one of those guys,

no different than he is to anybody on the five team. And I think the fans that a, you know, a sprint car race track, a dirt track in the middle of the country, they see that. People in a cup weekend, they see that. And he sticks around after every race and signs autographs and does all those things. And another thing that I will say that's to highlight your point, two days after things didn't work out for the double. He won the sprint car race that Tuesday. Yeah. To your point. Winning Cures all. That's just the, that's just the great dynamic that you guys all have right now, right? Because he's

got great people around him. He could fall off into that black hole if he didn't have you and Rick Hendrick and his family and all those people reminding him of how great that scenario was if he just falls into the pressure. But I think that comes from a great group of people. So we got a couple of fun questions. So So first one is what was the first car that you ever bought to drive on the street? To drive on the street was actually hand me down. I'm going to forget the year. I would say late 90s Chevy Silverado that was my dad's. And I loved the truck, would always ride to work with him.

And it was four-wheel drive. I thought that was so cool. Yeah. And so that was my first vehicle was a black 1990-something Chevy-Sovir-Ovara. How did you? No. Sold it. Didn't wreck it.

You never know where that story is going to go. That's right. So the most pressing question that I have came up on the show earlier. Okay. And apparently there was a kickball team. Oh, yes. And Mamba claims that he was the best athlete on the team. He knows better.

Okay. And he also claims that this was a multi-year process of kickball. Yep. Please explain to me. Was Mamba any good at kickball and who was leader of this team? So to add to your... Did it have a name? We had several names over the years.

Probably not proper to say on here. Some of them weren't proper to say on here. I think we started as the Jiminy Kickets. Okay. I think that was the first team name. And to add this to your list of hilarious cliff quotes, I used to always tell the kickball team before and after a game. Kickball is not a matter of life and death.

It's bigger than that. Of course you had. Of course you had for the kickball team because everything becomes competition. Oh, for sure. I was the most intense, insane person on a kickball field that you've ever seen. And we had Skip Flores, Corey LaJoy, my sister, her husband, Doug, we had Mamba. We had a lot of other guys and girls that were our age and just had a lot of fun doing it. I'm going to say we played five or six years in a row two seasons per year. And we either won the championship or finished second every single time.

So you didn't answer you haven't answered my question yet. Oh, who's the better athlete? Was he any good? We know he's not a good athlete. So, okay. So Mamba, he, uh, he would, he was really good at talking about how good. He had a hype. He had a lot of hype.

Okay. You know, a lot of self-promoted hype leading into the games that, uh, you know, it was so funny. He was a, he was a hit or miss guy. Like he would get up and just have a huge kick, huge whatever. Or he would strike out and I would just dog in. I would just absolutely dog him. Sounds like our show.

Oh, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. We had a great team. A lot of fun. Well, it's always, you know, I think that the NASCAR community in itself is a great place to grow up, work, be, especially with, when you get to be in situations like this, where you get to be around your friends and people on doing things that are outside of racing. And I think that's a lot of, it's a lot of work, but there's also a lot of things that come with it that are great. So, thanks for taking the time today. Thanks for having.

Congratulations on the weekends when and giving us a little bit of insight into your work. Yeah, it's been fun. Thank you. Well, we want to thank Cliff for coming to the studio today and spending a little time with us to give us some insight on who he is, where his team's at, and everything that makes him tick. So I enjoyed that, and I hope you did too. So we encourage our closers to follow us on YouTube or anywhere else that you get your social media at Harvard HappyPod. And we'll see you next week.