Kevin Harvick's Happy Hour presented by NASCAR on FOX - NASCAR President Steve Phelps Interview

Episode Date: August 22, 2024

In Episode 50 of “Kevin Harvick’s Happy Hour,” NASCAR legend Kevin Harvick sits down with NASCAR President Steve Phelps for an insightful and dynamic conversation. They discuss the business of NASCAR, the evolution of the sport, and the transition to the Next Gen Car. Steve also shares his insights on the current most popular drivers and much more! This episode is packed with exclusive insights, passionate discussions about racing, and a behind-the-scenes look at the world of NASCAR. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I know that race fans typically, they really don't care about charters. They don't care about team costs. They don't care about what I would call the business side of NASCAR. They just want great racing, right? They want their favorite driver to win, and they want storylines, and they want guys to hate, whatever it is, the drama of the sport. What I would say is they should care. Welcome to Kevin Harvick's Happy Hour, presented by NASCAR on Fox. And today we have Steve Phelps, president.

of NASCAR in the chair with us. And I can't wait to kind of get a state of the sport on a bunch of the questions that we have. So let's get into the conversation with Steve. Well, today we have Steve Phelps. And I would tell you that we have had a good relationship for the last, as long as I can remember. And I think it's been, I think people always wonder,

what is that relationship like between driver and sanctioning body? But when I tell people that our relationship is good, they look at you like, how can it possibly be good? But I think it's been very interesting. We've had our moments. We've had our moments. But I think that's everybody has to have a boss, right? And whether we work for a team or we work for the sanctioning body or whoever that is, you have to have somebody that disagrees with you, agrees with you, helps you.

Where do you think that relationship is with the drivers and the sanctioning body currently? Well, I think it's, well, I actually quote you from last fall when you said the relationship between the drivers and the sanctioning body has never been better. I believe that's actually continued. It's not that we don't have disagreements. It's not that, you know, there are specific drivers who might feel decisions that we made is not in their best interest. It's hard to self-interest is hard, right? So if you're a driver, a lot of times you are going to see what's best for you personally, right?

And that's one of the things I respected most about you, Kevin, is you didn't do that. You were trying to look holistically what is in the best interest of the drivers broadly, not just what's in the best interest. of Kevin Harvick. And that's hard to do because I think, you know, people get into that bubble and they're like, well, that might be great for everybody else, but it's crappy for me because I like a car with less downforce or whatever the situation might be, right? You didn't do that. And I appreciated that very much. And I think as we've, as we've gone through the years, and I think when we started the driver council, I think it was, it was very interesting to me to see some of the things that the younger generation of drivers didn't understand our sport. Because when I came into the sport,

it was much different than it is now. You didn't have social media. It didn't have a lot of things. So there were conversations that happened that really nobody ever even knew about with the sanctioning body. And I don't think either side wanted to expose that those conversations actually happen. But I think now it's, you know, we live in a much different world. Has the, I guess, the younger generation, has that surprised you with the things? that we've had to teach them because it surprised me a lot, just whether it was about the race cars or business or whatever that was. Yeah, I think it's interesting.

I think that the younger drivers, we've tried to expose them to different things kind of a little bit early as it relates to their own brand. But I think some of the things that conversations that used to happen, like someone would have a conversation with you about something that happened on the, racetrack, a veteran driver that would come in you and say, that's not what we do here. And if you do that again, we're going to bust your ass. I don't think that that really happens as much anymore for

whatever reasons, right? And I think some of these drivers today are like, I don't care. Like, I'm out here. I'm trying to win races. I'm trying to do whatever it is. If there's a protocol of how things worked, I'm not interested in that, right? I don't think that's a gross generalization about all young drivers, which I don't think is the case. But there's some that are, right? It's just like, you know what? I'm good. I don't need any help and I'm just going to go try to do what I need to do. Yeah. And if it's aggressive driving, I'm just going to drive aggressively. Yeah. And it's, you know, it's definitely a balance because we have to have the young guys. We have to teach them. And as my wife would tell me, that that, that,

a lobe in your brain doesn't develop until you're 25, you're all males. And, you know, some of the things that we have to teach are hard to teach because they are so young. And I think some of that happens trial by fire. But now it happens, it happens so much differently. And I think social media is a big part of that. Sure. They're always in a microscope. They're always looking at the comments. And it's just, it's a, it's a, it's a tough environment to bring the kids up and, and try to teach them about the sport, but also let them be who they are. No, I agree with that. And I think some of the things that we have learned over times with respect to building

driver brands, like, fans can pretty quickly determine who's being authentic and who's not being authentic, right? But they want, so they want people to be themselves, but they want them to have a personality, right? They want them to drive and win and, you know, have that fire. They have to win. And they have to win, right? To be, right, to get there.

And I think that's really what it is. And I think you have some drivers that, you know, not too much any names, that they don't really care about that, right? They all want to win, right? They all want the pinnacle of what it means to be a winner and a champion. But this idea of, you know, being famous, celebrity, whatever it is, you know, some love it, right? And they embrace it and lean in and others just don't. Yeah. you know, for the growth of the sport, I'd rather have the latter rather than the former rather than the ladder.

But, you know, you can't force someone to be someone they're not. And, you know, so you lean into those that really want to embrace, you know, their personalities being out there and, you know, showing that to the race fans. And those that don't, you lean into the success they have on the racetrack. So I look at our sport right now, and it's been much different for me, kind of looking at it. I've always tried to look at it from a broad perspective, like you said earlier. And I think TV, sitting in that TV booth and sitting in the meeting so early on while I was still driving, having all the things that happened with the driver council, it gives you a much different perspective. And now that I've been watching the races as a fan and also having to watch the races so I can do my job currently sitting in this studio. I look at the most popular driver as an interesting debate right now.

Because you have Chase Elliott, who has won the trophy for however many years. He, you know, has won on the racetrack this year. And I think that helps a lot. I think that when you look at the other side of that, you've got Kyle Larson. Kyle Larson is at every short track races every week. He's engaged with the fans. after the races, he's doing those things. I feel like if it was a vote from what you see on TV,

Kyle Larson wins that most popular driver battle currently. What do you think? I know this is a tough question for you to sit here and have to answer. I think, listen. It's an interesting debate, though, because he's out there. Kyle Larson is out there so much, and he's won those fans naturally by just winning. I agree.

Well, listen, I'll speak to Kyle first. We'll start there because it's probably slightly easier. If he wants to race anything, right? And he has, right? I mean, I think the IndyCar experiment was a good one in circumstances, you know, cautions and different pieces. I mean, can he win an IndyCar? He can win an Indy car. I think anyone would suggest. Any car. Any car and an Indy car. And I do think, you know, that debate about who's the best driver in the world and where's Max for Stappenstand, it's just a very, it's in some cases to me is apples and oranges. With that said, Kyle clearly loves to race, right? And he can win in anything. And it is not, to me, it is about his winning, right? It is about his talent. And whether it's, you know, Tony Stewart or all these other. folks, pundits who are saying, hey, he's the best driver in the world, right? Or he's a generational talent or whatever it is that they say, which are all true. But I do find interesting. He does put himself out there. And like if we ask him to do something, he'll do it. Like every time. But he's not a larger than life personality. He just doesn't. He means himself. He's quiet.

You know, he's not going to get in someone's face. He's not going to fight. Right. He's just going to go out and try to win on the racetrack every single time he gets on a racetrack. So I find it different, right? It's not like a Tony Stewart, right? So Tony had lots of personality, right? And lots of, you know, sometimes he was good, Tony, and sometimes he was not so much, right? But he was always about winning, right? And it was always about showing his personality. And I think that's what fans gravitated to. Like, he was. He wanted to win in everything he jumped in. And when things didn't go his way, he was going to tell you, right?

So you'd take the, like, kind of the recent flap with Denny and Kyle. Kyle will express his displeasure with Denny. Like, you know, in some comments about, well, Denny's never wrong and whatever it is that Kyle is saying. But he's never going to really go at him, right? I mean, physically go and approach him. it's not going to happen. That's okay.

I think everyone has a massive amount of respect for Kyle Larson. Chase L.A., on the other hand, he's not doing all those things. Will he do some short track racing occasionally? Yeah, he will. You know, he is a homebody, and he likes spending time in Georgia. And it's hard to fault him for that, right? That's what he likes, and that's what he's most comfortable with. And it's a, you know, I think to some questions,

when you are the most popular driver, whether it was Dale Earnhardt Jr. or Chase Elliott or whomever, I think there's a burden that comes with that. And some people are really good at embracing it and other people find it more difficult. And for me, you know, I think it's important that Chase is just Chase. And perhaps as, you know, he, you know, gets older and that some of those things might change, I have no idea. So we'll give him the opportunities. He wants to take them, great. And if he, you know, chooses to, you know, just want to spend more time in Georgia, so be it. Yeah. Interesting dynamic. And, you know, it's got two totally different scenarios. And I truly believe that our drivers make a better transition into IndyCar and F. Oh, I agree.

I think if we sent Kyle Larson and sent him to a Red Bull car right now, I think he'd go wheel to wheel with Max Verstappen. And it wouldn't take him long to figure it out. I think if you flip that switch and you sent Max to a stock car, I don't think that would. I think it would take a lot longer. NASCAR is just such a unique, it's just the car is such a unique dynamic to how you drive it and the things that you do. I agree. Much different than it used to be from the older cars to the next gen car. So I think that's a great debate. I'm glad that one of our guys are in that conversation from a NASCAR standpoint. I think it's terrific. I think it's great for racing. Let's switch gears and go to last week. We have the penalties with Austin. In my opinion, this car has changed the dynamic

of what you can do inside the car, the aggression level. I tell our guys currently that we represent. I tell everybody who watches a sport, air to the side of being too aggressive. Never, with this car, you cannot be successful without being aggressive. And I think, you know, we saw the end of that race. I think a lot of our guys have spoken out that that's just not what we see the racing needing to be from an etiquette standpoint. Obviously, you guys made a decision. Sure.

With the end of that race. And we saw the penalties and we saw everything. What was that decision like? internally and how tough was it? Because you guys have been through a number of these situations, and it's a different era, but that's got to be a tough spot to be in. Listen, honestly, Kevin, we don't want to penalize drivers. We don't want to have cars not past tech. All of that, we don't want. But there is a responsibility if you were going to be fair about the rules that you're going to put in place and then officiate that you have to do it with

you know, the utmost integrity. And I believe that our officials right now, Elton Sawyer and his team, they have the utmost integrity. I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone that that doesn't believe that Elton Sawyer doesn't have the most integrity of someone that's been his position. So, you know, the decision is very, each of those is unique. And we have to treat is unique. So they essentially will come back. They'll look at all the data. They'll try to figure out, you know, in their minds what happened. I think the difficulty as it relates to this specific incidents, and I've heard from drivers over the years, I don't know where the line is. Tell me where the line is. Can you show me the line? I'm like, I can't show you the line, but you will know when

it has been crossed, right? So if you hook someone going 170 miles per hour on a, on a mile on half track, you have crossed the line and we are going to park you. And so we've been consistent. We've had two of those. Do we want to do that? We don't. But we need to make sure that we are keeping our drivers safe. And when you have a situation like that, it's not safe. I would, I think, as we were looking at, again, the data and what happened, it happened so quickly. But you had two incidents in, you know, a split second, right? Turn three had an incident. Turn 40, you had an incident, and the race was concluded. I think the bump and run or slam and run or whatever it was, right, I won't suggest that there wouldn't have been a penalty. I have no idea, right? Because you had a

second move. And the second move was a hook, in our opinion, right, which was both the eye test as well as the data would suggest that's what happened. Yeah, it's hard to hide from the data. It's hard to hide from the data, right? And then he put a competitor also at risk, right? Danny took a hard hit. One of the hardest hits I think he's had in this next-gen car. And, you know, there was a line that was crossed in our opinion.

So they will have the ability to appeal it and they will. I don't know what's going to happen there. But again, it is a decision that ultimately is a recommendation. is made by the competition group and then it goes up to senior management. And if we don't believe that they've got it wrong, like significantly wrong, we will not overturn their decision. It is their decision. They are the experts in this space. So, you know, did it go to, you know, to Steve and Jim and myself? It did. And we weighed in and we thought they got it right. And that's why the penalty was issued. Do you ever see that penalty happening?

Right at the end of the race. So we actually talked about that this weekend, and there was an all-driver meeting, and that was one of the things that was discussed. Would we like to see that? I think it's something that we can do in the future. And so essentially what you have options, right? You could say, hey, it's a one-lap penalty. It's a 15-second penalty.

It's whatever it is. I think that's something that we'll explore. Whether that happens, the balance of this year, I don't know. we typically don't like to make changes, rules changes or procedural changes during the season unless we really think that it's going to be in the best interest in the short term of the sport. But it's something we'll explore. Good. And I think you guys got it right.

I think that that's a tough scenario for everybody to be in when it's the winner of the race. And there's so much on the line. but I think from a driver's standpoint when you have, hey, here's an example. And I think this car has taken that aggressiveness to a whole new level with how you have to be aggressive. So I think you guys got it right. And I think that that sends a clear message to the competitors as to where they stand and what they do. Well, I'll take it one step further. If we hadn't penalized it, then I think what we would see over the next 12 weeks would look significantly different.

And it'd be, it just, we just can't have it. It really comes down to what you, what is, what do you want your sport to be? Yeah. And that's why I think we ruled the way we did because it, you know, we're not demolition derby. We're just not. We are a sport that, that, if we had done nothing, I think it opened, we would have opened ourselves up for a mess, honestly. It would have just continued to escalate and gotten worse. when we talk about the car and we talk about the durability of it, how do you think the transition

to the next-gen car has gone? I think when it came in a really weird time after COVID and everything that we had and production and costs and everything going up. Where do you think we are with the next-gen car? I think from a driver safety standpoint, we've made gains. I think the drivers are still a little more vulnerable than they were in the last car just because of different things that we've learned along the way that we've addressed. And where do you think we are with the car for the teams from a safety standpoint and how you guys are happy or not with the performance of the car as we've gone through the year? Well, I'll start with safety first.

I think we have made significant gains in the, front and the rear of the car and trying to soften those up to make sure the crush panels are large enough that we can affect the energy transfer and not have that energy transfer go to the driver. That has been significantly better. I think the other area that we have spent a lot of time and kind of mandating where things are really are with the seat and the headrest. And I think we've made significant gains in those areas that I think have helped from kind of concussions and where that is. Is it perfect? No. Will it ever be perfect? No. But I think, you know, our safety, our group in safety really works hard. John Padillac and his team

because they care about the health and safety of our drivers. And I believe that to be true. And I know that you believe that to be true. Absolutely. And, you know, was it ideal in, in 22 with some of the issues that happened, no. You know, the rear of the car in particular when the car was backed into the wall, we were seeing significant issues with driver health and safety. We addressed that as quickly as we could. It is not a fix you can make on a Tuesday and then implement it immediately. It took longer than I would have liked, but it was necessary in order to make sure that

we were making the changes that were the changes that were the, the right change is that wouldn't negatively affect another part of the car and another part of the wreck. This car's initial safety, what we are looking to do is to eliminate catastrophic injury or death. And I think that this car did that early and often, but it caused, other issues. So small impacts that were to the rear car and the front of the car were not to the satisfaction of the drivers. And because it wasn't to the satisfaction of the drivers, it wasn't to our satisfaction. So I think we've come a long way. We are going to continue to kind of iterate on the car and different places to make sure our drivers, when they're in

that vehicle, feel safe. I think that was an interesting scenario when we had those small impacts because they were, I think it was hard to explain to everybody. And I think that's where that communication with the drivers really came into play, understanding those small impacts, because those were really the ones that, that were getting people early with, with the concussions. Like even, even bump drafting at Talladega. Bump drafting at Talladega, Martinsville, just the bumps at Martinsville and the whiplash that would come with that. I don't think that people understand that, that really didn't come from data. That came from the communication and to get to the data. It did. And I think, listen, I'm, I'm,

grateful that we had that dialogue. And like, listen, you and I had had conversations and some of them were not good. Yeah. And you called me out. And I think it was fair that you called me out. And we addressed it. And we continue to address it because we do care about the safety of the driver. So pivoting out of safety, I think the driveability of the car, like if we didn't have this current car, I don't think the street races that we've had at Chicago, it would even be possible. I think it would have a very different show than what we've seen over the two years that we've had the street races, which I find an interesting, right, because the car on the road courses, in some cases, are just, it's too good, right? And I think that's part of the issue is that, or in some of the other pieces, like at the short tracks, you grab a gear and go, right?

and it solves for issues that may have not been solvable in the past, right, with the old car. I think we've made some significant progress. You talk about aggressiveness on this car, and when I think about that, I think about, you know, mile and a halfs, two-mile racetracks, you know, anything over, you know, a mile where if you are not aggressive early on, you are going to get left behind. You have to be aggressive. And I think the racing that our drivers have put on is extraordinary. I think it's the best racing we've ever had on those racetracks.

I think the super speedways haven't, we haven't lost anything there. I think the short track package is getting better. I thought what we saw at Richmond was really good. And not just because of the option tires. I think the racing was better. Creating that softer tire with falloff is critical. in our racing, particularly at the short tracks. And then I think the road courses, I think we're better.

There are some things that I think we can continue to do. I think the experiment around stage breaks or the lack of stage breaks and not bringing out a yellow, I think hurt us because bunching up the field creates more exciting racing, typically. And I know people think that's manufacturer. whatever is, and maybe it is. But it does create better racing. And I'll, you know, I, I would think on or what I would say on balance, the data would suggest and the eye test is that our racing is better in this car than it was in the previous car. Well, I think it's, it's very interesting that you,

that you mentioned Chicago, because I thought that was a horrible idea, which is why you don't listen to the drivers on some things. But the first time that I walked into the Chicago street race, I could not believe visually what it looked like. And when you drive it and race it, but more importantly, when you watch the street race and you see what is actually happening and how different that is,

I think that has to be the most phenomenal event that we've done in the last handful of years. And I think that is a step for us that opens us up to going to any market, anywhere in the world. I agree. And I think that leads me to, the schedule. I know it's not out yet, but you guys announced Bowman Gray.

Yes. And what does that mean to our sport? Obviously, Bowman Gray has a deep history, but we've been in LA at the clash. Now we're going to take the clash to a very similar style racetrack, but what goes into getting Bowman Gray ready and tell us about the history that Bowman Gray has with the Cups Series and what that means to us going back there? Yeah, I think it's the Coliseum, I thought was terrific. And it was an opportunity for us as an industry to show a broader industry outside of motorsports or outside of NASCAR that look at NASCAR. We can do really cool things, right? We're not afraid to take a chance on something, right? It's an exhibition race. It's an iconic facility that's 100 years old. It was just a cool thing, right? And 70% of the people,

people that went to that race had never been to a NASCAR race before. 80% of the people that went to Chicago had never been to a NASCAR race before. I think those are important things. And so for us, schedule variation in continuing to push the boundaries of the schedule are important. But I think you actually need a nod to history as well, right? And so whether you're talking about North Wilkesboro and the All-Star race, or you're talking about the clash at Bowman Gray, I think it's a nod to the history roots of the sport. And I think that's important. And I know sometimes we get criticized for, hey, you took a race here and you brought it somewhere else. I stand by the things that we've done. So if you live in Pocono and Pocono's your racetrack and now you have one race versus two,

I get that. But we then wouldn't serve the St. Louis Market or the same thing in Dover. If you are from that area, like, you can't believe you took a race from us. Yeah, we took it to Nashville and we had two sellouts. Right. And we had a Pocono sellout and you had a St. Louis sellout. So to us, exposing different tracks in different parts of the country, I think, are important. Bowman Gray, rich history, obviously. You know, we work for a couple of years to try to figure out, you know, working with the Gray family and those that are involved. involved in that facility and then ultimately the city that it was we thought we could do something different and special there not just to the racing that happens you know kind of on a weekly basis

but can you bring a national series race there and what does that mean to the sport um i'm really excited about it and it'll be another sellout uh which is great and we went on sale this week and had a significant number of pre-orders. I think the fans are really excited to go see what that race can be. I know I'm excited about it. Do you see anything else racing with the Cup series there? That's a good question. I don't know, nothing to announce at this particular point. But I do think there are other opportunities there to broaden the schedule that will be there. And I think that we are it'll be important for us to make sure that we are exploring what could go there. So we'll see.

Again, for us, I think it was probably a very poorly held secret that we would bring the class there. But I think it's had the response thus far. It's been really good. When you look at everything else that you have going on, I think that the mixing up of the schedule and going to go into Bowman Gray and the clash and Chicago Street course and all these things that you guys have done. I think mixing up with the schedule is truly important to keep it fresh and people intrigued. So I think that that will be something that people will definitely want to tune into when you turn on in February. And I think that it also brings in a regional racetrack that has a grassroots background.

Huge. Massive history. And massive history in our sports. So those people want to see, they're coming to see a cup race and they're coming to see. up cars and they're they're not that's not a group of people that we will have to educate about our sport i agree but i think the important thing here kevin is like listen were we criticized about going to chicago for the street race yes were we criticized for going to the coliseum yes and i think it happens and people like oh well that's better and i thought it was going to be yeah they're a whole industry going to the clash the first time they're like why are we here why are we going

there dumbest thing ever dumbest thing ever and then we got there i have never been that first year for the clash at the Coliseum, I had never seen a happier group of NASCAR people. Because at some level, people in our industry are going to complain, right? It's just a question of what percentage of that are complained. I didn't hear one complaint. Not one. People were happy. I'm like, what is going on?

Knowing what you know now, would you have done it more than one year? Going forward, would you do events like that more than one year? You know what? that's a really good question, right? So there are things that you need to do to scale it, right? So there are costs associated with that we had to amortize over time because we lost millions and millions of dollars on the class, but it was an important thing to do. It was important for our friends at Fox. I think it was important to kick off the season the right way. It was unique. It was different. It allowed people to think differently about the sport. And when I talk about that,

I'm not talking about people who are in the sport or stakeholders or long-time fans. It's those that are on the fringe or would not consider NASCAR to be part of their subset of sport. And I think that's an important thing for us. And so the converse, I think, is going to happen with a Bowman Gray, which is you are going to get casual fans that we have now brought to the fold with a lot of the different things that we've done, Netflix shows and different pieces where you have this massive new fan base that's, here and then they're going to look at this historical crazy, you know, things at the madhouse and the documentary and the whole thing. And they'd be like, wow, this is insanity. And I think that's a good thing. I really do. So it's not just serving the long-term fan. I actually think it nurtures these new fans too. And so I think it's the best of both worlds. Yeah. I can't wait to see it.

And I don't, I think there's a lot of people that can't wait to see it. So we're looking forward to heading there with Fox, February, to get the season kicked off. last hard question. And then softballs? Or is this the last question? Then it's a softball and you're going to have to dig deep to find an answer to my last question. But the charters. It seems like it has drug on and here we are.

We're getting towards the end of the season. I think there are some interesting dynamics that go with everything with where we are. Where are we at with the teams and the charters and how do you feel about everything? So this is one of the first opportunities of, like, we are not going to negotiate in the media and we never have during this whole process. And the teams have felt the need to do that, that's fine. I think, listen, do I believe the charters will be extended? I do. Do I think it's important that they're extended?

I do. I think it's in the best interest of the sport that the charter. charters are extended. And I know that race fans typically, they really don't care about charters. They don't care about team costs. They don't care about what I would call the business side of NASCAR. They just want great racing, right? And they want their favorite driver to win and they want storylines and they want guys to hate, whatever it is, the drama of the sport and great racing. what I would say is they should care because healthy race teams put on better racing. And so the race teams have early on had said that we're interested in three things.

We're interested in being able to compete on the racetrack in a stronger sense. So more opportunities for those in the middle or the back of the grid to be more successful as part of what an extension would look like. They want to make sure that they are cash flow positive, right? Or at least a break-even instead of losing a bunch of money. Totally get that. And then the third thing is they want to increase their enterprise value of the charters. So essentially, I won't get into what charters are selling for right now,

but it's significantly more than it was, you know, three, four, five years ago. It's a lot more than it was nine years ago because they didn't exist. I could have bought one for a million. And now I think the last one sold for 30 million. So just to give that some perspective on the growth. And I think, you know, there are things that we need to do in managing and governing the sport that I believe can help the race teams. So, and part of that is managing costs. So what we have offered the race teams is more money.

I won't get into what that looks like. But there's more money because it was important to the race teams that they have more money. And we agree with them. And so our proposals for a while now have all had a significant increase in revenue that would go to the race teams. It's important. I believe, and there are some people that disagree with this, some people in my own building and some people at race teams, trying to control costs is going to be critical. So you had talked about the cost of the next-gen car and have things been more expensive than we would have liked?

in some cases, yes. Part of that has to do with the actual pieces and parts, and parts of it have to do with how many times someone is using a part. So if they're using it one time and we thought they could have a shelf life of three times, well, that's a different, that's different, right? Or teams buying multiple parts and then scrapping three of them and taking the best seven of them or whatever that might be. So are things happening like that? Yeah, they're happening. As the quality control continues to improve, are we hopeful that that will not happen? That's one of those things. And then the question is, well, what does the future of cost containment look like? Are you going to do it through rules or are you going to do it through some type of cap? I have no idea. Something needs to change because if it doesn't change, in my opinion, in seven years when we're renegotiating the financials of these charters, it'll come back to we're not making any money or we're losing X, Y, and Z, right? So, and you'll always be chasing in that. So if there's more money given, typically what happens is race teams want to take every dollar and then some and spend it to go fast, which I get because it's a vicious cycle that exists, because if you don't go fast, you can't get sponsorship. If you're not winning, you can't. can't get sponsorship. And we have seen, you know, over the last decade teams that don't run well,

it's hard to get sponsorship. And they'll lose it and it'll either be stolen by another team or worse yet, they leave all together, which is not in the best interest of anyone. So I would say to raise fans, we want to make sure that race teams have a level of profitability. But it is incumbent upon the sanctioning body to do things that will allow that. them to do that. Cost containment's a big portion of that. And then the last component of it, Kevin, as I see it, is really around governance. And, you know, the teams want to seat at the table. I think they should have one. I do. And I think they should have one early and often. At the end of the day, I do believe that it is the sanctioning body's responsibility to make the final decision

that we believe is in the best interest of this sport. I think that, you know, Jim France and Lisa of France Kennedy truly care about the sport and its legacy. And they want to do what's in the best interest of the sport. I believe that to be true. And so am I hopeful that this is going to get done in the short term? I am. Could it extend towards the back end of the year? It could happen that way.

It's just hard. Like, you have, I think there's been movement on both sides, and then I think you're in a position right now. There are both sides don't want to move a lot further. And so what's the middle ground where those two intersect and overlap? That's where the deal happens. And I would say that if we are in a position when things are signed, if both parties or all entities believe that they have, won something and lost something and they're slightly unhappy, it's probably the best deal we could get it. And I think it's an interesting dynamic because I think, and this is just my opinion,

I think some of the teams would just be done with it right now. Oh, there are. Yeah. And I think that the other part that's hard is when you have a team like 2311 who's got an NBA background and it brings a different perspective on what a charter or a franchise should look like, it, you know, I don't know if it's been more difficult because you have somebody that's coming from that NBA side of things and trying to compare that to a NASCAR side of things. And I think there's a different dynamic in that business. Is that fair to say? Well, I think it is very fair. And what we have said to the race teams, which is just a fact, is if you were a sticking ball sport, like an NBA team or an NFL team, soccer, all of it, right?

They are franchise systems. and what you do is you buy the franchise, right? What a charter is is not a franchise. With the charters, you are buying a guaranteed starting spot. You are buying some known revenue that's fixed, and then you compete for the rest of the revenue, right? And you're getting some level of governance. That's what a charter is.

That's where it starts and stops. It is not the collective of 1 30th, and I represent 1 30th of the sport. And we have a commissioner that essentially is our CEO that's making the decisions across all 30 or 32 franchises. That's the difference. And so, but you go back to what it is a charter is supposed to do. And it really is, does it provide some level of governance?

Yes. Does it provide some level of enterprise value? If I decide to get out of the sport, it does. and does it provide fixed and variable revenue, it does. And so, again, I'm hopeful to get this behind us because, you know, it creates noise in the system that I don't think needs to be there. And I'm not suggesting that this is a team thing solely. I'm not suggesting it's a NASCAR thing solely. I think it's just, you know, kind of how the negotiation needs to unfold.

Yeah. And it's, it's the worst part. about every interview that you do right now because you have to answer the same question over and over. It's like when I used to have. I gave you more than I give most people. Yeah, well, I appreciate that. But I think it's a difficult, it's a difficult scenario that everybody's in. But we wish you the best and working through it.

But the last question that I have, it's the most pressing question that I always ask everybody is, what was your first car? What did you drive? What kind of car was it? Where did it go? Well, the first car I drove was a Buick because my father was a was a was a car salesman, a Buick car salesman. So it was a light blue Buick century. Maybe the ugliest car ever built or one of them.

Yeah. And I, if you, you know, I'll give away my age, but I won't. But it's, that was my first car. It actually wasn't my car. It was our family car. Yeah. I had a series of beaters that went from there. But it was, I considered that to me my first car.

Did you wreck it? Or did you give it back? No, I didn't wreck it. It was, they were sold on a fairly regular basis on, you know, kind of cars that were demo cars. Understood. That were then our cars. I understand.

I'm not suggesting I haven't been in wrecks. I have, but none of have been my fault. Have you ever driven anything extremely? extremely fast. On a racetrack, obviously. So I drive a Tahoe. Do I drive my Tahoe? Have you ever driven in a race car or been driven fast?

I have been driven fast. I have been driven at 185 miles per hour at Daytona International Speedway on a ride-along. No kidding. And I remember, I'm not going to say to the driver was, we came out of turn two at speed. Yeah. And the car just drifts towards the wall. I'm like, hey, we don't need to get, you know, say, wow, pretty close to the wall.

Like, we weren't even close to the wall. I'm like, okay, now I feel stupid. I love when people do that because it looks so easy on television. And you get in that car and you go that fast. And you feel like you're two inches from the wall and it's 12 feet. No, I agree. I'm like, oh, my God. Hey, hey, we don't have to get that.

He's like, we're not close. We're not even close to close. Well, that's great. Well, I'm glad you took the time today. I appreciate you feeling this thing on the state of the sport, I guess. basically of where we stand on a number of different topics. So thanks for taking in time. It's my pleasure, Kevin.

Well, I want to thank Steve for taking the time to come in studio and really give us a great insight on where the sports sits and where the sanctioning body sits on a number of different topics. So we encourage everybody to follow us on YouTube or wherever you want to follow us on social media and catch us on occasion on FS1. So thanks for the time.