KFC Radio - Serialously

Episode Date: March 10, 2019

Five years ago we did a podcast about a podcast. Adnan Syed, Sarah Koenig and Serial were dominating the airwaves and we thought we'd weigh in on the situation. Now with HBO dropping "The Case Against Adnan Syed" we thought we'd bring back all the old episodes for you to listen to. Volumes 1-4 of Serialously: The Podcast About A Podcast About a Crime.You can find every episode of this show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or YouTube. Prime Members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music. For more, visit barstool.link/kfcr

Hey, KFC Radio listeners, you can find every episode of KFC Radio on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or YouTube. Prime members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music. It's really incredible. And your intro music, which is what I'm learning is that you need like great theme music to just hook people in. True detective had it breaking bad, had it with that weird, that weird noise.

And now cereals got it with this, this little piano jingle. That's just like, this is a mystery that nobody knows what the fuck is going on, and this is going to rope you in for the next eight hours. I am shocked that some Baltimore rapper hasn't rapped over that yet. Remember when Wheezy went over the office thing? Fire.

Still one of my favorite Wheezy songs ever. I can't believe someone hasn't hasn't gone in over there it's it lends itself perfect to rap too with that little the little piano loop all right so it's our first ever serial podcast a podcast about a podcast we're in podcast section at this point i know a lot of you might be expecting uh asa akira not happening this week we have the next best thing feidelberg A little bit of a step I believe her name is pronounced Asa Oh shit is it really

I've been saying Asa my whole life Well I'm glad we had this test run I said Asa I said Asia for a while And then I listened to her podcast Briefly Once we started talking to her, and it is Asa Akira.

Asa Akira. I have been doing a lot of Asa Akira research. So have I. I'll be honest. I was never much of a specific Asa Akira fan. I mean, I knew she was. I've come across her. But I would never, like, seek her out.

Your boy seeked her out the past week. Like, every single time never like seek her out. Your boy seeked her out the past week, like every single time you seeked her out. I've been on that Asa bandwagon for a minute. Like, I have an eye for talent with porn. I was in on Asa before she blew up. I was back in the day. I was in on Jenna Hayes before she blew up. I'm like a hipster.

I was going to say, Fights is the hipster porn guy. Like, now he's moved on from Jenna Hayes because everyone else is jerking off to her. Nah, nah, I'm on to the next one. Yeah, man, I was on the Chrissy Mac speed wagon for a while. I love that. I'm definitely going to post this in, like, the Serial Podcast subreddit to be like, listen to our Serial Podcast, and it's going to all be about porn to start. Well, yes, but here's the thing. So Asa Akira is apparently a big serial fan.

She was tweeting about it. Me and Fight started tweeting at her and she's down to come on the podcast, just not this week because she's celebrating Thanksgiving because who knew that you can get paid to fuck people for a living and you also celebrate Thanksgiving.

So maybe Asa Akira next week. I think we kind of actually need, we're going to need to wait for a new episode to come out before we do another one. But this is the first serial podcast. This shit has swept the world. It's it's a phenomenon. It's ad week was was writing articles saying this could be the podcast that takes podcasts in general into the mainstream. Bingo.

Like, yeah, that sounds real good for your boy bc and kfc because if you could if this like knocks down the barrier of getting like random chicks and and old people and young people and shit if i guess it was cool yeah like every have you heard the newest podcast like that used to just be like if you're a podcast listener or an internet nerd you would know about that. Now everyone's on the serial bandwagon. So the whole idea in general is a phenomenon, and the mystery behind it all is flat out enthralling. So we're going to try to touch upon all that. It's a little bit hard right now because the series, season one, whatever you want to call

it, is already nine episodes in. So we can't recap all of it, but we're going to touch upon everything, refresh everybody's memory, hopefully, and, you know, start to give you some of our opinions and theories and just talk about everything in general. What are you going to say?

If I quickly, quickly on the, like, you know, getting old people into it and whatnot. I was out to dinner with my grandparents and my aunt and my dad earlier this week. I forget.

Maybe late last week. Actually. Yeah yeah i think it was last friday night um and i was explaining cereal to my aunt and being like you know you should really listen to it it's great and my grandmother's face while i was explaining what exactly a podcast is was the most confused i've ever seen a person like she was like she was like like she like she probably she expected me to be like, oh, I'm watching a 3D movie where you feel textures. And I'm like, no, you're just listening to the radio. She's like, yeah, we were doing that

50 fucking years ago. That's what this is. It's a radio program show. It's like, before there were TVs. You know what? It's not even a radio program. It's a radio program anyone who listens to this kind of shit would say program from back in like when fdr was president they were listening to him and shit yeah it's like i'm just gonna tell you a story and and it's so

fucking captivating i also think that they hit a fucking home run with this story i don't know if they can reproduce it like i don't know if anything's gonna be like this again we'll get into it we'll get into that towards the end, talking about the potential for season two. I tried to get my wife to listen to it because I now judge people strictly on whether they are Team Adnan or Team Jay. It's my new barometer for you if you're a dumbass motherfucker or not. So I'm trying to get her to do it just so I can know whether this marriage is going to work out or not. You know what her answer to me was? I said, have you listened to Serial yet?

She goes, no. Can I read it? I was like, is that a real fucking question? The one thing you actually can't do. Did you actually ask me if you could read a podcast? God damn it, wife. My wife calls and she texts me about it. And she spells out the word cereal with the c like

everybody at the office wants to talk about cereal so cinnamon toast crunch or lucky charms all right so here's the deal your boy bc is it this this show runs his life come on i have not i never i tweeted this out i never thought i'd see the day where something captivated pretty much all i think yeah like took up all of his time the way lost did people were tweeting me they were like it's the weekend go do something else like take some time off so he is he is you know as far as i know the authority right now on on serial fanhood um i i am more about uh like the psychology behind it all like i i i don't when i listen to this the most interesting thing to me is not like the whodunit of the of it all to me it's all about like the the psychology behind like both i feel like both jay and adnan are very

like slick and very convincing and very sociopathic. Well, Adnan's not that convincing. Well, yeah. He's in jail. Right, right, right. But I think the whole reason that this is just even interesting, people, is because when you listen to him, you're like, he doesn't really sound like he fucking murdered that girl. But that could very well be just like you're getting played. And I think that police officers have agendas.

I think lawyers are sometimes not as – it's not all about justice. I think this is all very psychological. So that's kind of where I'm coming from. And Fights, I know from talking to you, you just – it seems to me like every episode you're like – you think one thing, and then the next episode you're leading another way. It seems like you're just kind of like back and forth one thing that's interesting to me right now is that this is like when we did the true detective dvr only where all our roles are switched yeah i was thinking that myself how i was with true detective i'm how brendan was where i'm kind of in the middle i think it's i think i think serial is very good i'm not as obsessed with it as some people are.

I do think it's very interesting and very entertaining, but I'm not like, it's the most amazing thing ever. I do listen every Thursday morning. The second one comes out, that's the first thing I do is I listen to it, but I'm not listening multiple times per week. I'll listen to it the whole time. Let me tell you this, though. This is why I think it's the absolute craziest thing of all time if this show and its popularity impacts the case and like

makes something happen in the case which i think that there is like a point zero zero zero zero one percent chance but if something is is uncovered because of all the attention, this will be the biggest story of all time. It will be the biggest thing to ever happen. Some nerd decided to do this show and it impacted a murder case. That will be bananas.

Like you said, I don't think there's any very small chance of it. The fact that it's... I also think a huge hook is that it's real life the fact that it is a real story it's just but that's also going to be the most frustrating thing because you know like nick palazzo just wrote the end to check if you knew it was coming right whether you liked it or didn't like it or whatever you knew it was coming this doesn't like it's there's no there might not be a hollywood twist there might not none of that

might happen but i i think most people are braced for that you know i didn't realize until this week that this is kind of filmed live i thought the whole thing was done i didn't realize until i think she said something this week i forget what it was that made me realize like oh she's trying to film it or recording it as we're going to well when i i got a kick out of uh you know episode like seven or eight when people started calling her based on this being like it's not possible because i was with him at that time with her at that time now and this and i another overarching theme here for me is that it's utterly ridiculous to try to do this 15 years after the fact like this chick that the girl who called up uh and you know i'll get into more of a recap in a second just to refresh everyone but the girl who

called up and was like that day i was the wrestling scorekeeper and i i was waiting for her and i knew i was talking to her at 3 30 like she was so adamant and like i could just what if they like looked up the the records of the wrestling team and they were like, actually that was like the Wednesday, not the Thursday. She would just be like, Oh,

well, did you know that that happened with the, the Asia letters? The, the girl who says that she was in the, in the library with him. She was like, I remember it specifically because it snowed that night.

They just looked up the weather report. It didn't snow. Yeah. The school was canceled the next day, but it was because of an ice storm and it like this is where you know people are debating they were like so there was an ice storm but it didn't come till four in the morning so she didn't get because she said she got snowed in at her boyfriend's apartment the snow did not start or the the storm did not start till 4 a.m so she could have been home but then again she could certainly like maybe she just didn't leave her boyfriend's apartment because she was

worried. It was about to start snowing, you know? So it's like all debatable, but somebody will remember it so specifically. And then until they don't, that wasn't true. Right.

Until, until something goes off, proven that memory is like the issue in this stuff. Right. And that's, I mean, forget about 15 years, 15 people can't remember no yeah so all right so basically to to back it all up and start i mean most of you if you're listening to

this are are well aware of what's going on it's you know adnan's in jail he's been arrested convicted 15 years ago for the murder of his ex-girlfriend and it's basically all predicated upon jay's story that's really it there's really no physical evidence there's no sort of confession there's no like smoking gun literally or figuratively anything like that it's this dude jay his story which is the most perplexing thing ever because there are parts of it that are like complete bullshit and he admits that he was lying and there's holes in the story. There are parts of it where it's like.

How the fuck would he know that. If what he was saying is not true. But I think what it boils down to. For me. In the world of Team Adnan versus Team Jay. If all you have to go on. Is one witness's story. And you can blast.

Like multiple holes in that. that is not even close to enough evidence for me to convict someone for life and i thought that's how the fucking justice system worked like to me that reasonable doubt is through the goddamn roof in this fucking case it scares the shit out of me actually that you could get convicted for some shit like that. Now, there's a lot of weird stuff going on, but the main thing off the bat for me is there's just not nearly enough to put away Adnan. Fights, I know

where do you stand right now, these days, now that the latest episode has been out? Because I know you, at some point, were like, he absolutely did it. Then, you know, you flipped the script the other he absolutely did it he then you know you you flipped the script the other way like where do you stand right now it's such a roller coaster for me i remember the first time i listened to it the problem the first episode i listened to was on my way home um to my house in fall river one night um and i listened to the whole first episode

and like stormed into my house like a bat out of hell. Like I was going to do something about it. I was like, Mom, they got this guy locked up in Baltimore who's fucking innocent. He's just innocent. This chick Asa, they saw him at the library. He's been in jail for 15 years, Mom. And she's like, what are you talking about and then the next morning I looked at episode 2

and was like oh wait nevermind he fucking did it and that's kind of how the whole thing goes for me now I've kind of settled into a sweet spot where now I go between like 70% sure and 90% sure he did it I do

agree that the reasonable doubt is certainly there, but I haven't fell under the spell of the charming sociopath yet. Every time he talks, I think, dude, you're fucking lying. I don't believe you. I think he absolutely played a part and had something to do with it. Whether he choked right himself or not, I don't know. But he's definitely not totally innocent. I know a kid.

I know an Adnan. I have an Adnan in my life who is, like, very smart, at least well-spoken, very, like, quick, very good on his feet, lies a lot, very perplexing and you just you never know like the truth or what's really going on and i i think that is the big crux of this whole thing too it's like if you listen to like the testimony and the conversation between sarah and adnan and he was just like some dumb fucking like thug it would just be like first of all not as interesting second of all you wouldn't really ever sympathize with him he's a weird dude yeah he's he's weird and you're right like fights that could that could absolutely be like like i just said i i know a guy like that and when he opens

his mouth i'm always like you little fucking shyster slimeball snake you're probably lying right now but for whatever reason even though i know people like that i just think like i and this is where i'm probably getting a little duped by sarah what are they called the confirmation bias or whatever like like sarah koenig koenig how do you say it koenig whatever yeah we'll make it up because whatever doesn't matter um she's presenting this like the way they say when you walk into a courtroom and you see adnan behind the the bench, you're saying, well, he must have done something. So your brain's already going in that direction. This podcast is being presented to you as like the other way.

This guy might be innocent. And so I can admit that I'm probably being played in that direction. I just, you know, like she says, I just don't think that he fucking strangled that girl to death. But when I watched her Twitter and I think I'm like on the reverse course of you like like every time you're like well i i mean maybe there was reasonable doubt but there's like he was definitely involved with it that was exactly when i was like feeling like maybe he wasn't but then i went back the other way and you had said no i changed my mind he's innocent i was like wait now i'm swinging towards the guilty but and here's my point though these these are all valid like

opinions and feelings and shit which is not nearly a fuck enough to put someone in jail for life. Right. What I have a real issue with is if you go back and listen to, I think, episodes four and five. Once you know the story up to nine, if you go back and listen to four and five, those are really interesting episodes. They're really like the breakdown. It's like the meat of the whole story.istencies and root talk right um but at one point you know they she she she couldn't get uh the detectives on record but they said absolutely he did it and she was like how can you be so sure and he goes his jay's whole story was corroborated and you're like oh shit

it was corroborated then you get and you figure out that the corroboration is the story that detectives made up about the calls that was not jay's story he was jay was like oh i got a call at 3 45 he was the detectives like you mean 236 oh yeah i.36. That's not real. You can't do that. But I think that's close enough. If I tell you someone called me at 3.30 last week. And you just remembered wrong. It might have been at 2.30. But their whole thing is built on call by call by call by call.

And that's the corroboration. That is the proof now i hear what you're saying like you probably didn't memorize the exact time of the calls and you were just saying well i thought it was the late afternoon but that is the whole crux of the that just is as long as the timeline matches what the detectives say that means 100 guilty that's too much for me if you're gonna uh narrow it down to a very specific window, which conflicts with his track time as well, like a set thing that does always happen at the same time, then those calls do kind of have to be right. Like, I get what you're saying, fights where it's just like you might not know the exact time, but their basis for him being guilty is based on the exactness of those times. But how about the massive overlooked i hope they really

address this remember uh dana and sarah do the run and they make it and they allow one minute to strangle a girl right yeah so you're talking about when adnan was like there's no way you could get out of out of school out of the parking lot through traffic get the girl to the best buy strangle her all in 26 minutes right and and they do it 25 30 right and they're like yeah it could have happened they didn't strangle anyone right you know i mean that part that part's really weird to me too because if if this is all premeditated as it said and like this was planned out for days if i'm planning out a murder for and guy, by all accounts, was a smart kid or smart enough,

if I'm planning out a murder and I'm putting days into it, the location of the murder isn't in a best-by possible way. I'm choosing somewhere a little more secluded. I'm choosing somewhere where there's

a significant chance i get caught with someone walking by my car and that this these are all the things that i'm just like any reasonable person would be like this this is not this is all so stupid when it comes down to me for me like you first of all you could flip adnan and jay and and put the other one in jail you know like whoever talks first. It's like, which story are we going to let, which teenager are we going to let spin this story that we're going to believe?

But that's how it works. I know. And that's like, they put you in two different interrogations like, whichever one things first. You've seen that on TV a million times. I know, and that's what's so sick to me. There was two main things. When Sarah hired the investigator to look at the police work and say whether it was good or not.

And he flat out is like, when you're a cop, you build your case. He says there's bad evidence. Yeah, and when a piece of evidence doesn't fit your case and your narrative, you ignore it and you sway the person away from that. And Sarah is rightfully like, what the fuck are you talking about? What? No. That's not police work. But that's when I – and this is where it comes back to my original point about the psychology of it all.

You think a cop's job is to uphold justice justice a cop's job is probably to get a conviction and you gotta do what you like when i when i used to be an accountant my job was technically to look at these these figures and this money and make sure everything was correct what my actual job was was making two numbers on a spreadsheet match. And I would do whatever the fuck I needed to to make that shit happen. Because if I didn't, I'd be in trouble. And that's my job. And you know what I mean?

It's not as honorable and noble as you think. So when these guys had an anonymous tip and a bogus story, but a couple couple major pieces that checked out a shred of motive and were probably staring down the barrel of the 50 millionth unsolved murder in Baltimore. They were probably like, let's just run with these three or four pieces and put this guy away. And that's fucked up. But I think that's probably more realistic than thinking that, like, all of these holes from Jay's story and Adnan's psychology are like, no, he really just did it. We really need a full episode, though, on what Adnan's defense was, because there's those rumors that, I mean, we know that his lawyer got disbarred, not immediately after, but eventually after. There was like lots of complaints about her.

She'd won tons of cases on appeals. In the first episode, she says there was rumors that maybe she threw this case to try to get more money for the appeal. Like, you need to go back to that Sarah Koenig. Like, we need to hear about that. That's fucking crazy. Well, we do know that her one major defense was to just scream stepping out at people. Stepping out. Stepping out.

Were you stepping out? Do you know what that means? You understand what that term means? You understand what that term means? Shut the fuck up, You miserable, awful lawyer. I know that. I thought I saw somewhere that they said she won more appeals than the next two appeal lawyers combined or something like that.

Like, like this was the miss appeal attorney. And when you hear the little clips of it again, maybe this is like Sarah Koenig just trying to make it an entertaining podcast and being like, this is going to be theenig just trying to make an entertaining podcast and being like this is going to be the episode where we bash the lawyer right but if if the little clips that she played are any indication that was the worst defense lawyer of all time because all i ever heard her you want to root against her you scream screaming about stepping out and when she

was talking about like the box of the best buy and the angles of the streets. Shit that I was like, yo, why don't you focus on the really big glaring holes in this fucking witness's story? You dumb bitch. Like this poor dude, Adnan's got the worst lawyer in the world. They got cops making shit up just to get their job done. This is fucking bullshit. Let the kid out.

Free Adnan! Free Adnan! When they when it started, I don't know what episode they made it clear that she was actually a really good defense attorney, but, like, from episode one, when she just, like, wrote down in a notebook, like, oh, these people said they saw him at that exact time.

Maybe let's contact them. And never did. And then with this, I was like, oh, he got stuck with a public defendant. That's why he's fucked. And then it was like, oh no, it was Baltimore's best defense attorney.

How is that possible? How? People are saying that she knew she was dying, she had cancer or whatever, and maybe she just wasn't focused. Like, you know,

whatever. But she didn't die for what? Six years? Yeah. I mean, again, that's why we need the episode on Christina Gutierrez. We need to hear everything about her. We don't need to hear again that's why we need the episode on christina gutierrez like we need to hear everything about her we don't need to hear from her but we need to hear

things about her but it also if if like she was an appeals lawyer had not probably shouldn't have fired her right after he was convicted because she maybe would have won on appeal maybe she like had something in her back pocket and she's like oh you're gonna fire me well fuck you then you're gonna stay in jail for life. That's some fucked up shit, though. If you're throwing, you shouldn't be. I mean, that is literally no, but she was disbarred. So it's like maybe she was corrupt.

Right. And she was part of the corruption of Baltimore. Imagine it really just goes to show like it's it's fucked up because we are talking about a real life case. And the way the way everyone is tending to talk about it is that it's like just a hollywood story but it is like the perfect story that the lawyer dies and so we can't hear anything from her so it's like a big mystery and you know it's just like another little wrinkle in this thing that makes it like that much more entertaining where it's like of course the one person who probably could shed light on everything and why it went down is fucking dead right it's it's the perfect case for to go create a entertainment podcast based on it

which is fucked up but it's true um uh what was i gonna say so i mean based on that is exactly what it is it's this girl laura well then who the fuck did it like why would like why would it doesn't make sense why would if a let what why would hey wasn't like i just i can't i'm probably just as confused as you are that is the perfect clip to sum up everyone listening to Serial, because here's the thing. You don't need to know who did it. All I'm saying is that there's not enough proof that Adnan did. You know what I'm saying? I fucking hate Jay. I fucking hate Jay so much.

I'm trying to even think of someone else that I fucking hate as much as I hate Jay from Serial. And I don't think i can do it i don't but i don't necessarily think that like that means he was the one who fucking strangled out hey and and just like i don't know but i don't know who did it it is so but i just know that there's not enough to prove that non did it is so bonkers because there's it's just like uh infinite timelines because you can literally like the the fact that the the main story can have so many holes in it means that you could just come up with another like completely fabricated story like people on reddit are posting well uh jay was cheating on stephanie and hay was going to

tell jay so hay told jay and jay got mad and jay killed her and then adnan helped cover it up but then jay flipped like and everyone like, this is all speculation. The main story is speculation. You can turn it into a soap opera. If we're just going to go on stories that are half true and half not, you can say anything about it. It's the most frustrating thing about it, though, because it's like with a TV show, which is like we just did this for True Detective. It was a TV show. It's completely different.

We know, well, Nick Palazzaro wrote wrote a story he's going to conclude it he's shown us certain things for certain reasons well real life doesn't work that way certain things are in evidence because you know why because they happened they just happened this was just a thing that you know like you could be like at the end of this you could be like so the asia letters didn't mean anything no they didn't mean anything they just a girl thought she saw something and wrote a letter and that's just the way life works i think a lot of a lot of things are like that's so weird why would a person do that and it's like because sometimes people do weird shit people why did that guy go walk all the way over there to take a piss in the woods and and how could he possibly have seen that hair there's no chance like i don't know maybe that guy just had to

take a piss and maybe that just caught his eye right Right. I don't know. It's, it does seem weird. But some people are blown away. They're like, what kind of teenager would loan his car to a friend? I did that plenty of times. I have plenty of friends who would never do that, but I did it. I did it with, and then I did it with like some of my best friends, but like, that's like, to me, that's not mind blowing. That's not mind.

But what i will say is mind-blowing and fights i've mentioned this to you before the amount of shit that adnan and jay did together for being supposedly just quote-unquote acquaintances is the weirdest red flag in the world to me like yeah you know cell phones were different back then right now i wouldn't loan my mother my cell phone if she like needed it back then 1999 i remember i mean i'm i think i was probably like their age i was 15 how old are they like 17 they were my age yeah because i was a senior in 1999 okay so but relatively the same idea like i remember having a cell phone not being like

connected to it the way i am now i wouldn't if i don't know maybe i would give it to someone well they're not as personal items now they would like to just store it but like if he had a practical reason he was like i need you need to do something i need to do so i i agree with you i think they were probably selling drugs together like i think he was in on the the the weed sales and stuff like that and i think that they you know like weed and alcohol brings a lot of people together like i could understand his whole family and a lot of his main friends being like, nah, him and Jay are not that good. And he's not going to deny that. I don't know why he wouldn't 15 years later when he's been in prison.

All right, so that's my point. That's the main thing to me. If – like someone would have flipped at some point. You know what I mean? Like why would Jay make up this lie to like frame adnan why would adnan not rat jay like the reason would be okay uh you know adnan wouldn't i'm getting off again adnan not pointing the finger back at Jay when Jay confessed the whole story. It like it doesn't make any sense for Adnan to not be like, well, so wait, you're telling me Jay knows where the body is.

Jay knows where the car is. Jay knows when the crime went down. Jay knows where the crime went down. But I'm not going to say it was Jay because he even says this. He says, because I clearly am the victim of somebody making up a story. So I'm not going to make up. Fuck that. You were in jail for 15 years.

What the fuck is going on? Fuck that. I'm really hoping that she like really puts it to him and is like, Adnan, this is weird. Why don't you think it's Jay? Why? And if not, why don't you? Now, Fights, you had said that to me at? And if not, why don't you now fight you? You had said that to me at some point where like,

you know, you would say you would absolutely be pointing the finger if you were in jail. I though kind of do think that you could probably be fucked up after 15 years of prison. Like the shit you're hearing from Adnan now, really it, it,

you can't, you got to take that with a grain of salt too. Cause maybe he's just got, he's come to some level of like, I'm at peace. I'm not going to, this is, this is my fate. You know, he's all religious and shit now, not going to point the finger, but I don't know. I mean, fights we were talking, I feel like you would be like, fuck that. Get me out of here.

That guy did it. No. Dude, after 15 years, I would be going, I mean, again, like everyone's different psychologically. So yeah, maybe he's accepted his fate and whatever. But I would start off pointing the finger at the guy I thought was guilty, and by year 15, I'd be pointing it at the fucking president. I'd be saying anyone did it but me. How about the fact that he seems like he kind of likes jail? At the end of that last episode, he was like, not so bad.

Yeah, he kind of crushes jail. He's like the most popular kid in jail. Distinguished gentleman. The reason, though, and this is a Reddit theory that I came across, and this is another aspect of it where you can really go down the rabbit hole on Reddit because it's all real. Like there's a lot of – you can see the pictures of the people. You can find old articles.

It's not just like – I mean there's a lot of you can see the pictures of the people you can find old articles it's not just like i mean there's a lot of crazy theories and stuff but it's not just like we're making stuff up about a tv show that we want to see happen or we hope to see happen you can like actually see some real shit about them the theory that there is i am go ahead go you go first no no i got something on reddit after no then then let's let's do right now what are we gonna say i was gonna say that I'm the opposite on the Reddit rabbit hole in this. I was going deep web during True Detective. I was reading every Reddit theory, every Reddit thread. I haven't looked at it for this because I'm almost treating it like I'm on the jury.

I hear the story once. I get it, but like, it's not like a true detective where there are, where I know that there's a, a writer who's maybe trying to give me Easter eggs in the background. There's not a writer who's like trying to reference other stories. Like this is just what happened. There's nothing I, I, there's nothing like secret I missed. I heard everything I'm supposed to hear there's no other

like a reddit theory is just to be a reddit theory like it was entertaining in the other stuff but this is real life I get that I don't want to find some like crazy reddit theory because I mean we saw how reddit theories worked in real life

during the Boston Marathon. We got five people guilty who didn't even do shit. Right, but part of me also thinks that it's kind of funny that this still is, on some level, a podcast for entertainment value that is being presented by a girl who, if you ask me, quite frankly, wants to fuck Edna. Like, Sarah Ko konig wants that that syed dick i mean she is all in on i tweeted she loves everybody in the whole thing she says that stephanie looks like a model nisha is very cute she hates jay deep down though hey is yeah hey is beautiful no but she even says jay's handsome like she i mean like everybody's like gorgeous yeah it's crazy i mean she's she's definitely painting

a picture and shit but also i do think if you pop on reddit you can at least try to hear like you can get pieces of this story so this is the difference like you can only get true detective from nick pisolato you can actually get more of this story not told by sarah konig you know true but like you said she's producing this for entertainment value. And this is a question I wanted to ask you guys. What do you think made her do be like, I'm going to do this because I think that she had to get some kind of piece that she is yet to disclose.

Like, I know it's very intriguing already, but I feel like there's got to, there know it's very intriguing already but i feel like there's got it there's a few episodes left and i feel like if if that girl rabia came to her and was just like here are all the holes i don't know if it would be enough i feel like she needed a little something else and that's what's got me excited and that's what's frustrating though that might not be true if there isn't because especially when they hired that investigator they got involved with like that innocence group which i don't know if that cost any money or not.

But all of a sudden you're laying out dough to produce this show and hire investigators and all that kind of shit. You would probably imagine you're right, that there is some sort of like finale that you have planned or like at least. But this is real life where like i i am put it this way i am fully braced for episode 12 or 13 or whatever it is to roll around and her be like so i don't know that's that's what i've seen that's like she said earlier that's my fear is i'm gonna get through all this and just be like yeah she she the the sound clip is her just being like that's my fear i'm gonna i'm gonna get through this and be like i don't know. It's like that could very well happen. But again, if you're coming from the point of view of a little bit more skeptical,

like someone had to, at This American Life, greenlit this idea, and they got MailChimp on board. When you're presenting that or talking with advertisers, you probably have an ace in the hole. I do think they've got some but i would i would absolutely be i think that there will be like one more very intriguing thing but i don't think it's like we got him off the hook he's coming home tomorrow right but i i i am absolutely prepared for the final episode for her to be like it is now in the hands of deidre and the innocence program that will i mean we will update you if we

hear more but i i do think that there will be I mean, we will update you if we hear more, but I, I do think that there will be something else that we get to hear. I mean, there's a lot, there's a few holes that we definitely need to fill in here about, but, but I do,

I don't think that it necessarily has to be this grand finale. What do you got fights? Are you at a Reddit theory? Yeah. I was going to say, well, just theories in general, because now,

you know, at this point we're all we've got all the not all the facts like you said there's some holes but you're you're drawing your own conclusions at this point you're you're either team adnan meaning like you either don't think you did it or don't think there's enough evidence like team reasonable doubt or team adnan just first nobody's really team j if you're team j like you are probably a murderer you should probably be in jail if you like really support jay but you know he might be the one that's the only one that's telling the truth like he may just be like a guy killed it and i'll cover the body but i didn't mean to but he may be down the truth that may be real

with getting like angry i feel like that confirms like his story yeah where he's like yeah i played a part and maybe he played a slightly bigger part than he admits although i don't know how much bigger you can possibly play aside from knowing about the murder and helping bury the body unless you held the other side of the rope what else is there to play i just think i think he got such a got off so easy that there's something more at play. To get no time for burying a dead body and hiding evidence and shit like that. I can see that, though, because I can see the detectives just being like, we want this to go away. Not meaning we're actually going to rig it, but they're just like, you'll be fine. We don't need you if you really just buried the body like that's a scummy thing to do but we need to get the guy who fucking put

if this kid strangled this young beautiful innocent girl to death like i can see them just being like fracking this guy helped bury the body and you think all his other lies are just like i know i i don't i could just see that being what the detectives go with like why they're not like we gotta bang boat we gotta get both of these guys because they don't have any physical evidence if they hadn't any physical evidence to put both in the way i think they would have tried but they all they had was chase stories so that's what they took that because that's all they have just so fucked and it's why like i i'm never talking to a cop i think about this all the time and specifically with

this podcast where like it's kind of like uh in gone girl too if you've seen that movie where like they're judging the guy because he doesn't look sad enough or like the way you answer a question if you could be 100 innocent if the police decide that you know their framework is going to be you and they start steering shit your direction the way you answer that question or the time you slip up and just misremember is now being held against you and you know i do this all the time i get in trouble you know with my fucking i'm lying to my wife about something and it's like uh or or or even the opposite when i know i'm 100 innocent but now i'm thinking like okay you look innocent don't do any of those things where don't blink a lot right because then you look like you're lying but then all of a sudden you're

blinking a lot like you can be 100 innocent and just psych yourself out and and know that cops are on trying to pin it on you and it it just gets fucked up on on reddit they they talk about um oh this is here's one of the reasons why adnan's innocent and he go and it's called like um the theory of magical thinking and it's where it's where something like super tragic happens and your brain stops working the right way. And it's like – so Adnan says, hey, can't be dead. I just wrote her name in my agenda book or something like that. He said something ridiculous. And he's like there's many instances of grief doing that like oh he can't be dead

because he was supposed to deliver the mail on whatever day so people think this is a reason that adnan's innocent and that's why i'm glad that they had that um the i think the investigator that they've separately hired say like you have to throw that all out the window the way people react to a tragedy like this is is crazy it's like sometimes grief makes you shut down sometimes grief makes you go crazy so it's tough because you do hear like things that sound suspicious but he's like you can't go by that and they doesn't yeah they tell that to the jury and shit too and then they had the juror on who said it was a big deal that adnan didn't testify fuck that i i mean i i used to tell you man have you been on

jury no i i've done jury duty for um like it was for an assault case but it was like it was these two old ladies fighting and they had video of it and it was it was kind of hysterical i'm probably not supposed to talk about this whatsoever but anyway um but you kind of get a little brainwashed because they're like you must consider the facts you must go by this this is the charge the charge is very specific and and like i don't know like you could just stick to your guns you could just stay emotional but like they do drill into your head you have to consider this you have to consider that but then that doesn't it doesn't always work though you're right it completely doesn't always make some sense because like if they drill all that shit into your head then you

would be so skeptical of the case against Adnan. I don't know. I do think that they kind of hint at it where they're going through the call log and they say – because you know they only match up four of 11 calls. And they say when they match up the four calls that go against Adnan, they put a sticker on this board and they're like, strike one, strike two, strike three. It's almost like a magician showing you what he wants to show you and not showing you other stuff you kind of get lulled into it remember where where where even croning croning girl was like yeah the that phone was in leakin park leakin park that she's like it was there but like but remember when when the nisha call they start talking about it and like clearly nisha remembers a different call because he wasn't working at the porn store yet right and

then the the prosecutor stops her and was like no no don't talk about where he was yeah like that's that's my thing you could do that my whole thing is just like this is not even about like who did it and it's it's about who spun spun what and who told the story first and which direction lawyer – who lawyered better. You know what I mean? It's all hearsay and conjecture and shit. Objection, your honor. Objection. But fights, you know, like that data, it's not like GPS where you open up your google maps and it's got a dot where you are

like that 1999 technology is like it pings a tower in leek i mean they called modern scientists and they're like yeah that's good science it's not junk science i i get it i get saying not junk science but i i mean that to me means you were in the area that the leakin park tower picks up i i mean again we're talking reasonable doubt like to me does that mean you were in that park now you couple that with the fact that you've got someone saying we buried the body there yeah i mean it does start to look bad but i kind of hesitate on being like we can know the exact location of this phone i mean we know what tower pinged we but those things have radiuses of miles i i think my thing too going back to jay is like you gotta remember that we're talking about like i believe like inner city baltimore sort of shit not and maybe not inner city but like everyone in the story's a scumbag jay's a fucking like drug dealer adnan

everyone's like yeah you know he looked good behind closed door you know in the open behind closed doors kind of shady every everyone's like a fucking scumbag teenager we're gonna like believe this one not believe this one not to speak ill of the dead too but like you know that i mean hay was dating this guy who you know like it's like a secret drug not addict but like you know like i't think, and she's banging Don, the 30-year-old at LensCrafters. Hey, Lee Ming, whatever, is a little minx. She can't be trusted either. No one can be trusted here.

And that's why you have to throw this whole goddamn thing out because nobody's making any sense. Nobody's got anything even close to ironclad. And it's all your story versus my story. And there's a dead chick involved. I think the. That's how, that's how every court case is, though. It's always someone's boyfriend, someone else's boyfriend. There's usually some actual evidence.

I think the phone being in a place where Adnan says he wasn't is pretty good evidence. If he's not like... No, that's not. He admits he had the phone back. That's a contradiction. He had the phone back at that time. There's a contradiction. There's a contradiction.

There's a story that doesn't match up. You can say that about a million parts of Jay's story, though. Yeah, I do think that if you were if Adnan was a witness in this case and they said, where were you? And he was like, oh, I was at track practice or I was leaving track practice. And they were like, no, weren't you over by Leakin Park by that time? Oh, yeah, maybe I was leaving track practice and they were like, no, weren't you over by Lincoln park by that time? Oh yeah. Maybe I was. If he wasn't being accused, if he was, if he was given the benefit of the doubt, like, um, like Nisha, where her call, Oh, maybe it was this. Oh, maybe it was somewhere else with Jay.

Oh, maybe it was later in the afternoon. I picked him up at this mall. I know I picked him up. He was a witness in this case where he was, it was allowed to float and change. I don't know. I mean, he could, that's what you get for not, I don't know. I mean, he could have been. But that's what you get for not, I don't think anyone thinks Adnan is completely innocent, right?

You got to get kind of elaborate. That's what you get for not, not talking for it. Yeah. That's what you want to say. I do. You didn't sing for it. I mean,

I do. I, I, and I hope there's an episode where they, where she kind of says, listen, let's role play. I'm,

I'm putting you, they probably want to role play another way. But I'm putting you on the stand, and I'm going to ask you these questions. I do have a problem with his lack of memory, and I kind of don't because, like, some people are like, oh, he should remember more. I'm like, he remembers. He just doesn't remember really specific details. You know what's funny, too? And this is where I'm against Adnan in a way, but it's more about Sarah

and the innocence director chick, whatever the fuck that is. They are like so, they're like everyone who's innocent is always like, I don't really know. Like, I can't really explain that. What? Get the fuck out of here. Since when is that a good excuse? Like, I get the

idea that everyone who's innocent doesn't know the story yeah what a shot right i mean i i understand what they're saying is like you you won't have any smoking gun evidence in the other direction to exonerate you because you you never thought about that day because you thought you were innocent but but when sarah presents adnan i can't remember what it is but she presents him with like a big contradiction like you said you were here and this proves you weren't or something like that But when Sarah presents Adnan, I can't remember what it is, but she presents him with like a big contradiction. Like you said you were here and this proves you weren't or something like that. And he, oh no, it was the butt dial where he's like, that was a butt dial and her voicemail picked up.

And she's like, that girl didn't have voicemail. And he's like, ah, you know, all right. I don't know. That just doesn't make sense to me. I don't know. But I could get that i could get that because if you're telling me it's ironclad that that that call went on for two minutes and there was no possible way that a call like that could have gone on for two minutes i'd be like i don't fucking know dude you've never called somebody and like it didn't connect you

know like it's weird sometimes phones mess up this is like i hear you that's that's iron that's gonna put me in jail forever that's crazy well and that my original point is that that shouldn't put someone away but the flip side of sarah and that girl being like well he's innocent right right i mean again to go back to my own personal life of every time my wife caught me in a lie i was like i don't know what to tell you i don't that's what that's what i don't say the one point like i don't know what to tell you yeah it was like it wasn't me like but yeah it's I don't know what to tell you Yeah it was That doesn't work Like it wasn't me Like but yeah It's like

If she shows you Your call She snooped through your phone She shows you A bunch of calls To a bunch of girls And my answer was I don't know how that happened

I don't know That would prove innocence Like give me a fucking break That's absolutely ridiculous Yeah they I mean that's And his whole The whole

I'm not remembering thing Doesn't really stand up for me Because you're like It was just a regular day. It wasn't. Right. Everyone knew what happened. That's why everyone else remembers it.

It was like a day that a smart girl who they were friends with disappeared. And the cops called everyone. It's a memorable day. For sure. Again, though. And he doesn't not have only specific details. He doesn't really know anything he's like yeah this is probably what we do i was probably at the house i was probably high

like the day your ex-girlfriend disappears forever you don't really remember that day i mean that would be burned in my mind what happened when i got i remember i mean i i had a my i had a friend die and i remember this was three years ago almost. And I remember every single second of that day from when I got the phone call that he was dead. I remember everything I did, maybe for that week. I remember every single second. Yeah, but you didn't – he didn't know that she was dead. All they knew –

No, he didn't know. But he knew she was missing. But, no, all we knew was that she didn't pick up her cousin. She has a boyfriend. She talked about running away. He even says, he goes, the first thing that popped into my mind was she's going to be in trouble. Like, I mean, you don't instantly think, let me jot down everything about this day when one of your friends is playing

hooky. But everyone else, he's the only one. I didn't think anything of it. Everyone else is like, One of your friends is playing hooky. But everyone else, he's the only one who's gone. I didn't think anything of it. Everyone else is like. That is a little weird. She's never missed picking up her cousin ever. That was a big deal.

When Sarah is like, everyone else was calling and paging her and you never did. I don't know. I think there's another episode where they were like, eventually those girls were calling and paging. But I don't think that we know that like, Is or whatever her name is was paging her like that night. Okay, and again, this is the whole thing. Like this whole argument we had right now is not even 1% enough evidence for me. Like this is all bullshit high school gossip conjecture about how you should or should not react. I mean, it's just so thin to me. Now, one of the things I think that was kind of interesting that came out of Reddit was,

have you heard about the Roy, I think his name is Roy Davis theory? No, what's that? The year before, another girl from the same high school was strangled to death. I remember people saying, well, who could it be? And I'm like, how about the 50 million murderers and rapists in Baltimore in the 90s? This guy strangled a girl in 1998,

was arrested in 2003 for something else, and DNA evidence revealed that he strangled... Now, how has... This is a little... I mean, I think Sarah has done a great job, but she really hasn't mentioned that this is the second strangling in a year at the same high school. That's fucking weird. Yeah, that's crazy.

So what? I mean, this guy's in jail for life, I take it. I don't know the sentence, but I know he is in jail. I assume he's in jail for life. Maybe that's what, like, the finale is. Like, she asked this. She's like, because I feel like if you're in jail for life what's another body like yeah but you know what i mean the the weird thing the the weird shit and this is the problem like the fact that jay knew where his car was was huge right

right like that it could it could have just been a random act but then why would jay know anything about this so the theory is he's the criminal element of Woodlawn. He's associated with this guy, and this guy says, pin it on somebody or I'm going to kill you. So I didn't see the Roy Davis thing. The theory I saw was just there's a third conspirator. Is that a word, conspirator? I don't know. Why not?

That makes sense to me. Say there's a kingpin of some sort, like a bigger criminal player. But that's fucking wild. So wild. And listen, I'm not saying this is what I think is going on. TV drama. This is a TV drama, though. This story is so fucking wild, nothing would surprise me.

That is the only reason why someone in jail for life would not snitch. Because there's someone out there that knows his family and would kill them too. And that's why I think we're getting a little fantastic. We're absolutely getting fantastic. But that's, that's, that's part of this whole,

this whole thing. Because in my head, I was always like, Jay, if, if Jay only, you know, sold weed here and there,

why would he be so afraid to talk to cops? Well, he's connected to someone bigger. And why would, would Adnan not flip? Well, he's connected to someone bigger. And why would Adnan not flip? Because they're both connected to that same guy. Okay, so why is that big guy killer? Why does that big guy kill this 17

year old girl? I don't know. Gang initiation, Feidelberg. Maybe they wanted to be in it and it's like, you gotta prove to me you're loyal. Go kill that bitch. I don't know. I'm just saying these are the crazy things that run through my head. I mean, in reality, it probably it probably i mean if you ask me who i really think did it it's so weird because i i i like i'm adamant that team that adnan should be free but i don't think that jay like was the actual one to murder her so i'm like i don't know maybe this chick just strangled

herself well i know and i know fights fights you, you know, how much more could she could how much more could Jay be involved? And this does speak to like I mean, it only means that maybe they did it together. But the other rumor, because the girl Rabia has a blog alongside and she talks about a lot of stuff and she posted that little thing. tweeted it actually earlier in the week where Adnan was asking, Adnan claims to his defense lawyer, who again, didn't bring this up at trial that he had told Hay that Jay was cheating on Stephanie. Stepping out. Stepping out on Stephanie. And that Hay was going to confront him.

Hay confronts Jay. Jay does it. Adnan, I guess, could potentially be completely innocent in that, but that doesn't really make sense. But then Adnan protects the person who killed the woman. And that's why he won't point the finger at Jay.

I think one thing that came to me often is everyone's like, I feel like the innocence project lady kind of said it the most. A lot of people are like, well, people get dumped every day. That's not a reason to kill someone. People get dumped every day. People also murder over getting dumped every day.

Do you guys want to hear? People get dumped every day. There's a reason why the first suspect is always the husband, the ex-husband, the ex-girlfriend, whatever. Because it's a crime of passion. That was her exact quote. People get dumbed, that's not a reason

to kill someone. What are you fucking talking about? And also, that chick being like, I've found that mostly everyone's innocent. I really just believe them when they say that. What? No, everyone's fucking bad in this world. Like, good people are so few and far between. Fuck out. Do you want to hear the best theory that we got submitted

when we asked for, like, this is from, uh, Oh man, I'm sure those were off the fucking wall. This is, this is actually, I was like,

wow, because I got so many submissions guys. Thank you for your submissions. But, um, the, the leader in the submissions was, um,

I'm not sure if Adnan did it, but something is up with Jay. That was like, I got like multiple submissions like that. And I was like, you guys are so smart. Like that, that was, that was like i got like multiple submissions like that and i was like you guys are so smart like that that was that was fantastic but um this guy laid it out for me he said he said like you said this guy's in jail forever and nobody's pointing the finger nothing's really changing why why would that be like why would he why is he not going at jay and uh they they try to maintain that they're they're not that close to friends but not only did he have the car on the phone that one day

somebody else testified that that jay drops adnan off the track all the time so like they're clearly closer and jay's a little weird and he dyes his hair they've got he's got a lip ring. And Adnan won't say anything bad about him. They're dating. Hay is going to say something to Jay. She's going to say something to him. She's going to expose something. What if what she's about to expose hurts both of them? So they both do it. And hurts both of them. So they both do it.

And now one of them, one of them, one of them does flip. Yeah. And you know, Adnan calls him pathetic at the trial. It's like pathetic because you're selling out your lover. That would be awesome.

Shout out to Sean, Sean, KFC radio listener that submitted that theory. See, that was like wow you are you went deep man you thought you really you're the the gears are turning in your head to come up with that next level shit and would explain why adnan's kind of enjoying prison i mean the the glove fits my friend the glove fits that was wild i i would give anything for that to be the real thing except again this is real life so four weeks from now it's just going to be like uh i don't know the

guy in jail probably did it and jay's yo i'll tell you weird but see you later yeah the it would be amazing audio can you imagine if sarah coney just gets him to confess if he just breaks down starts crying so what do you has she explained like because I only kind of recently caught on to just how real time this is, like fights with Cyan. Like, she, do you know anything about the process of putting this together? Like, she's in the studio Mondays and Tuesdays and she's interviewing Wednesdays. I started listening when it was maybe like three episodes deep. And I started Googling that. How many episodes are this?

When is this over? When's the finale? And I do remember her somewhere doing an interview saying, we're not we're still making it we think it's going to be 10 to 12 i think now they're leaning more towards 12 she may have even confirmed it's just crazy to me that's like what if what if this week she doesn't get any good like material like what if there's no i know i don't think it's a weekly i don't think it's a weekly process but i do think if she learns something new she's going to add it it. But I think she's got hours and hours and hours worth of conversations with Adnan. I don't know if those conversations are still going on, but she's got all that, and I don't think she's used it all yet.

And some of the stuff, like, you know, we didn't hear about the investigator until, like, episode six or seven. I think he was around pretty early right and i think the innocence project was actually on board a little bit earlier so it's all like i i you don't know you know she's taking you through a timeline then you but it's sort of like a false timeline you don't know when she's learning the information and some people have gotten upset about that because they think it all should have been disclosed earlier i'm like well then you don't have an entertaining podcast i was gonna say there's some element of like this is a smash hit podcast and that's how we're gonna keep week to week episodes going um all right so we'll we'll wrap it up here just because i mean there's a lot

to take in going forward we'll be able to do it like you know update on the episode yeah yeah so you know you kind of know all of our feelings about it now um you know i mean deep down i just feel like feidelberg wants to put adnan in the chair really it's just just the vibe i get i think you really just want him executed i i don't like him he doesn't do it for me he rubs me the wrong way but i don't like i don't particularly like jay either like his fucking excuse where he's like, oh, I knew it not would go to the cops if I would weed for me. If you're like this street savvy kid everyone says you are,

you know they don't give a fuck about weed when it comes to a murder. Right, because obviously they were working with the drug kingpin of Baltimore. There's a third conspirator, sir, and he is the head of Baltimore and he's probably like involved in the law realm and he's probably got the commissioner in his back pocket. There's bigger things at work.

Open your eyes. I'm a very impressionable person. I'm like a baby where I just absorb information, and I'm like, okay, that's true. And I am totally in on them being gay. That's why I was defending Schilling when Schilling did his thing about evolution. Well, I was like, well, he just watched a movie about it. So at that point, it's true in his head, because that's how my head works. Like as soon as I see something, I remember when I was tweeting about that, bashing him, I was watching the Da Vinci Code.

And I was like, well, Schilling's wrong because this is how it works. I'm watching it. And this is what reality is. So now in my head, I'm totally in on that. I think they're both guilty. So, yeah, let's put them both in the chair. You know what? It reminds me of Incognito and Jonathan Martin, where like just shit wasn't adding up.

And the only thing that really made sense was like these guys are scorned lovers. You know, at that point, I was like, this makes perfect sense. Like if it like if it had to be planned. Like this, if they were working together, why would they work together? Like, why would Jay even help him even if they were friends? Well, if they were going to get exposed, it's crazy. It's a crazy story. Especially being, you know, very conservative Muslim.

And this guy's like the tough, the drug dealer, street tough. Neither of those guys can afford to be known as the gay dude. You know, it's funny, though. It's like once. Oh, man, that's it. We just solved it. Sarah, dude, babe, babe, just cancel cereal. Cancel the rest of the episodes because we just figured it out here at Barstool.

Shout out to Sean. Crazy. All right, so what sucks is that the next episode is not until Thursday, next Thursday, right? So I think we're going to take a break too because there won't be any new material to talk about next Tuesday. Unless you guys come up with more shit and you want to run run it back again we might wait until episode 10 comes out but either way whenever the next episode comes out we will have you know a new recap where we kind of update our theories and update the information i know a lot of people are are still like real confused as to all the characters because not everyone's as big of a nerd as we are like rehashing everything and

thinking everything through so we might just kind of yeah there's like a chris and a juwan and a laura there's a lot of fucking people that the not kathy with the fake voice hate her her and jay need stephanie won't even talk jay and and fake voice kathy need to jump off a fucking cliff together that's what that's my opinion on those guys so how about they just put uh jen pusateri they put her government name in the streets they won't even let you hear stephanie's voice they disguise kathy's wait what that what is that that's arbitrary uh all right so what is she scared of that's that's weird i'm telling you man there's more at work there is so much more at work that you simpletons just won't even admit what's that kevin you you said this, I think, earlier in the podcast,

and I think Brendan agreed with you, where you're like, I don't know if you can recreate this again. I think you can recreate this in every city in America. I think this is an easy story to recreate. I think it's interesting because we know the people, but I think there are a billion cases of scorned lovers dead with a questionable court hearing. I think this is fairly easy to recreate.

You're right. I can see that. I think that there's a lot of specifics that lend it to like, well, you – I feel like a lot of other cases will have more of like a smoking gun. I mean everything you hear about every character here. Also, and this is where the entertainment value comes in. You can make any story make it look like it's entertaining you just withhold certain facts like what if the if sarah conings is just that will enrage everyone if she's holding back on something that like that really she already knew somebody you know like that's because every i mean everything you hear it's the perfect sound clip of that girl. But then if she, how do you, you know, it's like every single thing is a 50-50 proposition where I think that's part of why this works so well.

I do think there's a lot of questionable convictions and similar murder stories. I just don't know if there's anything that leaves you on the permanent seesaw. Every week you're up and down. I'll tell you, just to leave you guys with this, this is a little teaser because this actually was at the very end of the first episode fight so i'm gonna play it and then i'll tell you what it is what are you thinking right now you have the same smile i do i'm literally thinking like could like could he have gone crazy so fight so you hear that that that's a like a little teaser at the very end of the first episode it's sarah saying to dana what what are you thinking you have the same smile

i have on right now and dana responds i'm i'm literally thinking could he have gone crazy we haven't heard that yet right i don't believe so yeah nothing about somebody going crazy so i don't know but i think that could also be that could be either adnan or jay snapping somebody also was just like um uh adnan has convinced himself he didn't do it. Like he blacked out and he did it, but he erased it from his memory. He's Costanza-ing. Yeah. It's not a lie, but you don't believe it.

But what's weird about that. You didn't strangle that Chinese girl. What's weird about that is Dana and Sarah have been very much on Adnan's side, and they kind of sound a little happy about that. Right. But who could have gone crazy? These chicks want his dick so bad. They are so biased.

I love it. Dude, when I saw Sarah Kroenig, that was, in my mind, it was like when, back to back Seinfeld references here, but when Elaine was talking dirty into Jerry's mic, or into Jerry's recorder recorder and they were all like who is this fantastic woman and i i had just like i could have fucking pulled pud to sarah cronin talking about about 1999 murders and then i saw it i was like ah that's not what i had it was like finding out santa claus isn't real i i i said it. Not to say she's some grotesque, putrid woman. No.

But in my mind, she was just like an Ally McBeal sexy lawyer. And I was like... In my mind, it's almost better because now I can focus on the case. Because I used to kind of be like, man, I want to fuck this narrator. It was just confusing me. My emotions were all up and down. All right, so that's Serial, Serial, Barstool Serial Episode 1. And as long as they keep doing episodes, we'll keep doing them.

And then I'm sure we'll have a Season 1 finale or whatever. And everyone's basically got to go donate, like, thousands of dollars to make a Season 2. Because like Fight said, there's probably cases all over the place that we could do this again. Catch you next time. Previously on Serial-lessly. Stormed into my house like a bat out of hell. Like, I was going to do something about it. I was like, Mom!

They got this guy locked up in Baltimore who's fucking innocent! He's just innocent! This chick Asa, they saw him at the library! He's fucking been in jail for 15 years, Mom! This still is, on some level, a podcast for entertainment value

that is being presented by a girl who, if you ask me, quite frankly, wants to fuck Adnan. Like, Sarah Koenig wants that Syed dick. Jay's a little weird, and he dyes his hair. And he's got a lip ring.

And Adnan won't say anything bad about it. They're dating. From KFC Radio Studios in my basement, it's Serial Sleeve, a podcast about a podcast about a story told week by week. What's up, you mutts? Here we go. It's episode two of the Serial podcast about a podcast. We're going to be diving into episode 10 of Serial after the bye week. Very, very funny the way that it all kind of worked out because I feel like Serial kind of hit a tipping point and everyone caught on to it just in time for the Thanksgiving break. You know what I mean? I feel like people were itching for it and then they had that two

week break that felt like eternity. was like i need my fix i need something new i need to hear sarah konig's voice so we got episode 10 uh which which dove into gutierrez and and that whole that whole situation um so the way i kind of think of it the first episode we did we kind of had to catch up uh everything for the first nine episodes this one is just going to be focusing more on on episode 10 so the framework i kind of thought of in my head was three sections the first section being about jerry the people of baltimore and discrimination second section is all about how gutierrez is the worst fucking lawyer on the planet earth and the most annoying person i've ever encountered in my life. And then the third section kind of talking about the appeal and moving on

with Adnan. I think, I think we all have kind of have fallen into our roles here with a super producer, BC and Feidelberg. I am team. I am team Adnan in the sense that there's no fucking way this guy should be in prison.

I'm all about the reason. I'm all about, there was not enough in this case to convict him your boy bc i i he just straight up thinks jay did it and that adnan has no blood on his hands he did it and fido berg has now he is he hates adnan more than anybody i think he i think he loves jay and hates Adnan. I don't love Jay. I just think Adnan did it.

Adnan did it. There's no other way to say it. Adnan fucking killed this girl. It's nuts to me that you guys don't think she did it. That he did it. What has come about recently that changed your mind?

The testimony's been the same. Everything's the same. And I still think the same. Yeah. You were never really all about you were, you were kind of at the end of, at the end of the most recent episode where I was like, that was my last time being tricked.

That's when I was done where I was like the whole episode leading up to it. It was like, uh, what was, I forget. Oh, it was like, Oh,

we don't remember if there's a phone in the parking lot. And then it was, oh, she was there at 2.30. And then I was like, oh, fuck, maybe he didn't do this. And then they let him talk again. And I was like, wait, you're a fucking guilty son of a bitch. I don't trust you for one second, and that's the last time I'll give you even remotely the benefit of the doubt. All right, I will say this if you if you just like have a gut feeling that for some reason you're just like i think that motherfucker did it and he's lying to me fine but do you think that there was enough evidence

like you think that the the argument presented is enough to say that that dude did it or you're just saying like i kind of get the feeling he was a murderer i don't kind of get the feeling he was a murderer that's just there's no concrete reasoning you want to know i was gonna save this for the end he asked for a plea deal okay we'll get into all that in section three let's let's jump off of what i was saying in the beginning that was a good tease we got there now they gotta listen to the whole show you little shit yeah that's that's a that's a true radio vet right there we know what we're doing now folks uh the first section all about the the jurors in baltimore i think it was an interesting little tidbit because i don't think people really understand what we're talking about when it comes to that like when half the fucking room

stood up and was like my brother's a murderer My friend's been shot in the head. I got robbed. I mean, it changes things. It's like you're we're not talking about like suburbia America. We're not talking about like middle class shit. We're talking about some inner city hood, grimy shit where crime and all that. Hey, quiet is very common. It's all, and I think that plays into effect. The second half of that introduction that they give us is all about whether or not discrimination played into it. Which is like, shocker, people that have prejudice against Muslim people. Like, I mean, I think that that's like all, you got to take that into account in every situation. I mean, that's not like breaking news. Some people are prejudiced.

When it first happened, I was like, well, it happened in 99. So like, they probably weren't that prejudiced when it first happened i was like well it happened in 99 so like they probably weren't that prejudiced against muslim people and then i was like well at the same time he's not white so i'm sure they were pretty racist too but yeah i mean that's happened for eternity in every situation but always always racist but that's the i love the guy the guy who he had like the perfect racist voice to where he's like, now maybe my prejudice is showing here, but I don't see how you can have someone who – how you can let your daughter date someone named Adnan Masood Syed. Well, yeah, dude, your prejudice is showing a little bit.

Just a tad. But also that's the danger of racism when you just sort of accept it, when you're just like, well, yeah, I mean, of course. I mean, when the prosecution hired a consultant that like basically was like, yes, there is a conspiracy plot to extradite all Pakistani people so that they can commit crimes whenever they want. It's like that may have not really been all that accurate. That was ridiculous that then like she just like a week week later she has rights to let it be like oh yeah that was total bullshit and that i mean that that that's the overlying underlying theme here for me with everything is like nobody knows what the fuck they're doing and it makes sense it's like and in this episode in general i think you really learn that life is not law and order and

it's not like the movies. Like there's a lot of people who are making shit up or, or don't understand what they're saying. And the jury doesn't understand what they're saying. It's not what you, what you see in Hollywood. I mean that, that whole, that whole thing about the, the extraditing the, the Pakistan, the Pakistan males, like the chick couldn't even speak.

Couldn't say Pakistani. How bad, like that's so racist like this pakistan dude right like that's not what he is he's not a pakistan man and where was his lawyers on that like throw me an objection here buddy you're a client's american like what the fuck are you guys doing nobody knows what they're doing i thought it was interesting too how they were talking all about, you know, honor and how in, in Pakistan, you, you murder girls over the stuff like this. And it's not a big deal. And in the old country, honor killing is a real thing and blah, blah, blah. Yet here we are, this is, this kid is completely Americanized. Like everything else he does. It's like listening to rap music and smoking weed and hooking up

with other girls. He doesn't demonstrate any sort of those Pakistani qualities. And now all of a sudden, though, we're... Jay says, the all-knowing Allah, he says that Adnan said that. There's no way that dude said that, if you listen to how he talks.

Did we lose Kev? John, oh shit we did yeah i'm here all right well it's just me and you now not a great start to skype well we all know i agree with that though he is he's he's even now where he is like he's a converted muslim and all that even now you wouldn't – he hasn't given you the hint that he'd say. Yeah, it just doesn't seem like that. Allah only knows or whatever the fuck. And now he's more dedicated to his faith or whatever. Right.

But I don't know. So we should just go on here or whatever. I mean – Can he just come back in? I don't know. Sure. Can you hear me yeah we can hear you yeah it says my video is turned off you should turn your video back on

i don't know like there's a there's like one little button and when i click it it just doesn't turn back on well we're probably not gonna do a video podcast anyway that's true um yeah okay so my point yeah my point being that like nothing else really about him was was traditional Pakistani or Middle Eastern. But we're going to throw out the most ridiculous example that men over there kill girls when they're dishonored. And that seemed to stick for people. That seemed to be like a valid winning point for that lawyer. It was crazy to me. I mean, the whole time they say every single person that knew Adnan was like, he wasn't really all that mad at Hay. But he murdered her. He probably definitely murdered her.

There's absolutely no indication that he was angry whatsoever, but he strangled her to death. It's a little, I don't know. May go against the case there, Feidelberg. The, I,

dude, I don't know. Like I've been, when I'm steaming angry at my girlfriend, like when I'm out with my buddies, you can't fucking tell. I know, you can't. But you're, like, he's, you're the one who's saying he's 100% a murderer. But you're saying his friends were, like, yeah, he seemed normal.

Like, when I'm in a fight with my girlfriend, when I'm out with my buddies afterwards, I'm, like, normal. I'm not pissed and, like, you're, like, I'm going to fucking strangle that son of a bitch. I'm, like, ah, fuck it, whatever. I know, but you don't do it. You haven't done it. That like, I'd say the majority of the population, I'm still really,

really angry inside. I think what I'm hearing here is that fights has wanted to murder his ex girlfriend. Are you fucking kidding me? I think we've all wanted to. We needed this to get that. Like, yeah.

Neither of you have wanted to murder your girlfriend before. Yeah. Well well as i'm saying we can we throw you in jail for 15 years just for wanting to no but he did it oh all right yeah your honor uh he did it okay dude that's what they did that's what they did they put him in jail because one guy was like uh he did it and they were like okay good enough for us i never looked i said like last episode I never looked at like the reddit or anything like that for this because I kind of just

treated it like I'm on trial and whatever but I just glanced at it before this while we were waiting for it to get going and I just looked at the topics and one of them was like what a bullshit reason to give Jay his car and I was like yeah that is a fucking some guy you don't even know you're gonna give him they said he drove his car. And I was like, yeah, that is a fucking... Some guy you don't even know,

you're going to give him... They said he drove his car all the time. They routinely drove his car. They were just friends. They drove cars. They smoked weed together. They completely were friends. That's just a lie. That's not true. They were friends. They hung out all the time. That's a lie, but this is true.

They hung out all the time. They smoked weed all the time. I wouldn't call him my best friend. I know the guy. I wouldn't loan my car to a guy I know. He had his car, right? I mean, like, that's not... Well, this is the thing, though. Like, that little back and forth that you guys had right there,

it's all just, like, opinion and hearsay and conjecture and all that shit. Like, none of what either of you said there is enough. There's nothing concrete about either of your arguments. Where it's just like, no, they were friends. No, they weren't friends. So none of this should have been enough

to put someone in fucking jail. And so that brings us to your girl, Christina Gutierrez. You know, to say that she fucked this up is the biggest understatement of the century to me i put this in my blog when i wrote about the other day well like what it really boils down to is like jay told this story and that's the only thing that they had to go on and all she had to do was poke holes in this story which was so fucking easy to do there were so many holes to choose from and the fact that she couldn't prove reasonable doubt

with that the fact that she couldn't capitalize on the fact that the prosecution assigned him his lawyer his defense lawyer in jays we'll see i mean just so many things that seem to me like again i don't have a law degree and i don't really know all the facts. But as a normal person, it's like how could you not prove reasonable doubt here with all these ridiculous glaring holes? Why wasn't there one point where Christina Gutierrez said something to the effect of like if Jay was lying about this, this, and this, and this, how do we know he wasn't lying about that and and see that's what i think he she tried to do or i think she just picked the wrong things to do like she she tried she didn't address the call log like she didn't look at the call times and all that i know the prosecution proved some of the times but there was like 15 other calls that just didn't

make any sense she didn't try she didn't attack that at all instead she attacked the brand of the phone that was my favorite she was just like well it was an ericsson phone not a nokia so he should be innocent and it's like well that just wasn't good enough everyone that wasn't not good enough that made no sense like i can't believe the courtroom didn't like erupt into laughter but it's like being like oh well the car we used used to test how long it took was a Dodge and I drove a Ford. So how that you can't use those two. It's the fucking same thing. And I think she made a point about the prosecutor.

I don't know. And it just didn't stick. Like she got the first one thrown out as a mistrial. I honestly think that her goal was just to get stuff thrown out. She was just like, sit tight. I'm going to get stuff thrown out she was just like sit tight i'm gonna get this thrown out and then it didn't happen and also i do think there's a good chance that she thought she could win on appeal like she may have had this whole thing set up and then they fired her and that was basically rabia the girl from the beginning i don't know if you guys read she like does a blog the whole time but she was like we gotta fire her

we gotta fire her i don't think it's good to like switch lawyers in the middle of it even if you lost appeal is the appeal is, is part of the process. You may want to stick with the person who's already been working with you for over a year. But, but she's, she's a criminal. Christina Gutierrez is a criminal. Like it's not a bad idea to fire a criminal lawyer. I mean, it's true too.

She's just stealing from like, that was this whole episode. I think she was a drug addict or a drunk or something like they're talking about it like she's so dedicated she's like every morning she'd come in with her hair a mess and sunglasses on yeah i do that too i'm not dedicated my job i'm hung over as a bitch that's that's fucking not the same thing as being dedicated to your job right and she had what did she have she was sick she was probably like pilled up like yeah it was awful i like in christina gutierrez to like like a star up like yeah it was awful i liken christina gutierrez to like like a star at like i don't it sounds like christina gutierrez used to kill it and that

she was like the best lawyer and she did win all these appeals that's what she used to do at some point you just you start to fade you start to lose it and i think it all kind of started and came to a head with this one case where it's like yeah dude you you used to hit 50 home runs a year and now you just kind of fucking suck and you can't hit lefties and you like you know what i mean it just you fall off a cliff especially if you're sick and especially if i mean there had to be some sort of drug use or something that she was just flushing insanely large amounts of money down the drain for yeah just asking for 10 grand or 25 grand from the whitman family and just never buying those experts you're talking about and what was

the family she went into full mail time mode except it ruined someone's someone's life and the other family that had to like take care of everything by themselves like they were like we were driving down to maryland and and like my wife had to hop out of the car to like, well, I had to keep the car running. It was like we were so short on time. Like you fuck that family over real bad. There were two huge with. Well, there's many huge issues with Gutierrez. But the two main things for me were one, the way she just like physically spoke and delivered everything.

We've been joking about it for weeks now with stepping out. But the voice aside, the way she was presenting. But the voice matters too. Like how could you sit there as a jury and be like, I'm discounting everything she says because I don't even understand what she's talking about. The way she was like, is it true that it was false when you gave those statements about your earlier truths sir he's like what like at one point you gave false statements about the truth

of your previous statements on the 14th that were false correct like i was like i don't know what the fuck you're they said she spent hours on what pakistan was like the geography lessons and and all that shit and then here was my other main thing is that it sounded like her main like uh tactic here was to prove that jay did it or that mr s did it and i think that was the main problem is there was not enough evidence, as I keep saying over and over again, to prove any one person did do it. But did she like her case should have been more about you can't prove my guy did do it. There's no way she's going to be able to build a case against Jay or Mr. S that's ironclad because there is no ironclad case. But did she

do that? Did she say like, here's evidence against Jay? I think she went with, like, the tactic that they're not going to believe Jay. I still didn't even hear anything to that effect, that she actually tried to discredit him. Sarah Koenig says in this, that she was, like, her main, like, message was Jay did it. And I don't think that that, there was, like, she should have realized that there's not enough evidence to convict Adnan. There's not enough evidence to convict adnan there's not enough evidence to kick vick jay or anybody really there's just not enough physical tangible evidence here that you should have been focusing on trying to pin it on someone else it should have been more about poking the holes and and building the reasonable doubt from

this one story that has had lies all over it the the mr s thing was my favorite because you could just tell first of all that was such a waste of time because i don't think anyone thought he could have possibly done it he's just a pervert but you could he was such a pervert like they had to keep him in the courtroom i just want to get the fuck out of here when he was like when when she when she said to him like so when your day was over did you go home and he was like yeah when your fucking work day ends don't you go home that was bizarre and i actually think part of that even including him in in the podcast now i feel like it was almost like entertainment value i don't feel like anybody ever thought

mr s did it i think it was just a weird wrinkle that this pervert happened to be in there you know for like two seconds i was like oh fuck this guy definitely did it and then like when they when they said like it was it would be weird to find the body there or then they said when they're like oh you have to walk 145 feet to pee and then they walked it and they're like oh yeah this makes perfect sense like even right here you're kind of that's that that is a like a microcosm for the whole thing too where it's like a lot of this stuff sounds super weird and why didn't he pager he walked 145 feet there was definitely no telephones. And then you just kind of like examine it a little further

or think about it more and you're like, eh, I guess that could actually work. It seems weird, but no, it's actually totally normal. And certainly not enough to pin a murder on one way or the other. You know what my, like one of my favorite lines too, like how easy Sarah said it, this was like around the time they were talking about Mr. S, when she's like

did Gutierrez blow it or was it just a slip up, like a surgeon slip of the scalpel? Like, a surgeon slip of the scalpel is a fucking huge problem. Yeah. That'll kill you. That's not like, was it a fuck up, did she blow it, or was it a surgeon

slip of the scalpel? Those are both really, really blowing. Yeah, you can't just like, oh, sorry, slipped, slipped. Like, no, that's incredible. That's malpractice and like a huge fucking issue. You just cut an artery and the person bled out on the table and now they're dead. So, yeah, I mean, from things like her voice is annoying

to like her tactic was probably wrong to like she was dying in a thief. It's fucking, i feel like this should just been a mistrial based on that like and i guess that's what that's what the appeal now is is that like you know she she she wouldn't uh explore the plea deal but it's just like this guy will not get a fake fair shake at all and then i will give that on how the the judge threw out the thing about jay's lawyer how that how that got because he didn't know he was benefiting from it yeah like a kid 17 probably doesn't understand anything but that's the point isn't it i i don't think that you can

just still just have someone like the prosecutor stands to benefit from having his inside lawyer doing this for free see i guess i guess that's illegal you know but it kind of strikes me as like it's still just part of the deal like you you saying first that's you know you you get the better deal you get hooked up that's that's that's part of the plea bargain of singing first that's when you're both in separate interrogation rooms and the cops are like whoever talks first is gonna fucking make out of this one pretty okay that's you get a lawyer you don't go to jail for the rest of your fucking life you get probation instead of jail that's just part of the gig it just seems shady to me the way that like the the way that the chick lawyer first

brought it up where she was kind of like when mr smith gave this case uh first brought this case up to me and it was like just seemed very strange. And I guess you're right. Fights were like, you know, none of us really know all the extent of all the letter of the law here, but it's just for the, for the, for everyone to be like, this is insanely bizarre. Like this never, ever happens. The prosecution does not get to pick defense lawyers. It – the fact that then the judge was just like, yeah, but I don't think he realized what was going on. So let's keep going. Again, again, it just like everyone in this case from cops to lawyers to judges all seem to just kind of be like, eh, whatever.

I think a lot of that comes down to – and this is going back to Gutierrez's plan of trying to pin it on Jay. It's like, I don't think anybody wanted this to go unsolved. I don't think they wanted to have an open murder where this girl just died and we got nothing. It's in the wind. So, like, everyone's, I feel like, kind of inclined to just be like, no, we got this guy and there's kind of enough. So let's just keep going with this. You know, it's like nobody wanted that to just completely go unsolved. So it was easy to just be like and that kind of ties into the Muslim thing, too, where it's like, do I think that a lot of these jurors like specifically were like, I hate this Muslim guy.

I think he did it. No. no but if it if it came down to like well this is either going to just be an unsolved case where nobody would get justice or like i send this muslim kid to jail i could see where some racist people in baltimore might just be like yeah okay i don't know i can totally see especially since adnan doesn't take the stand i i don't really see anything where they really refute that he did it i don't really see that in the defense the like the at the end like i don't know if people realize this but the the only time that 236 call comes up is in closing arguments they say that was the come and get me call jay does not testify to that he says it was at a completely different time he says it was like almost four o'clock you can object in closing arguments too like so why didn't christina

gutierrez say wait a minute nobody ever said the 236 call was the call the come and get me call you can't just say that to the jury and but since it wasn't refuted i can see at the end of it the jury being like this guy's saying he did it he knew a lot this other guy isn't saying anything we're gonna call we're gonna convict him well you bring up the closing argument bit because that that was I guess when when lawyers look at the way Gutierrez was doing things, they were like, this is like proper. This is how it usually goes, where you just kind of tease ideas. And then, as I said, you wrap it all up in a nice little bow and closing arguments. Problem is, the way she was like teasing out those ideas just made no fucking sense to anybody.

Nobody there was you couldn't possibly wrap that up in a bow because it was all fucking knotted up in everybody's head it was it was too much mess but but that and that's where i guess the prosecution did do that well so whether or not it was four o'clock or 236 or whatever that wasn't really in debate at that moment it was just like here's my closing argument i'm throwing out this time and the jury just kind of went with it that's where i mean again none us. I wish I had a little more expertise to talk about how closing arguments you should object and do all that. But it just seems like there should be something that the lawyer does to stop that when when all I mean, the fact that 236 that was like the whole case and that wasn't brought up to the closing arguments. That's crazy to me. And the fact that she's just so boring. Like every clip that Kronig plays is like, now this runs long, but I'll give you like the important part. You can't tie something in a nice bow if you just left a fucking mess.

Yeah. You can't make me recall something if you spent leading up to that moment you want me to remember, you were describing the geography of Pakistan. And think about this. We've listened to 10 episodes. that moment you want me to remember you were describing the geography of pakistan and think about this we've listened we've listened to 10 episodes i mean that's like one 100th of what this jury probably heard and we may have heard the most important facts we may not have but you know it sounds like there's just all this extraneous stuff like i mean you can you hear a clip where she's talking about and the best buy is a rectangle like yeah we know what a best buy looks like right we know what stores look like that was i think she was intentionally throwing

the case so she could get more money for more fucking pill head stuff uh it's funny how like she's just everyone's like no this chick was a drug addict. Why didn't anyone understand that? The evidence is so clear. Like, oh yeah, she came into work every morning disheveled because she was so dedicated to the case. She clearly wasn't dedicated to the case. Like dry heaving and shit. She was so nervous. She was puking.

I saw a good point on Reddit that was like, when they play the Gutierrez clip, everybody – nobody knows what the fuck is going on. And then Sarah just like re-sums it up in a sentence. That's like bam. Say it like that. That's what your fucking lawyer should have said because this chick doing a podcast just nailed it, like just summed it up perfectly while you were talking about the geography of Pakistan. How come, how could you be the best lawyer? It just makes no sense to me that everyone was like, she was the greatest. It's, you know, it'd be like, this guy is the best basketball player I've ever seen. And then you watch him play and he's just throwing up bricks. Like this

guy sucks. What are you talking about? I just don't understand like how there can be that big of a discrepancy between every single person in the world listening to this podcast and what everyone believed back then. It is making me regret not becoming a lawyer, though. How sweet would it be to be like, I need $25,000 cash at the courthouse right now or I'm done defending your son and he goes to jail for the rest of his life. I mean, that's straight up extortion.

You're holding someone ransom for like months down the line. And it's illegal. The stuff about the second family was, what was it? The Whitman family? Was that what the name was? Yeah. Yeah. I mean.

Although I think she sneaky did them a favor because even if your kid gets off if he murdered your other kid or you think there's even a shadow of a doubt he might have killed your other kid you're gonna hate that kid i don't want him in the house i mean go to jail dude like i just even like one percent of me thinks you might have fucking killed my other son go or get out of my face like that's not something you can just kind of i think that kid was stabbed like 15 times too so it was not like you okay you brutally killed my other son it's not like you gotta go how about uh the the adnan trial when the the lawyer the other the prosecution brings something up like and she was

like oh no i never looked at that you can't was like, oh, no, I never looked at that. You're not allowed to use that. I never looked at that. Yeah, but then they're like, dude, you're the one who brought it into evidence. What are you talking about you didn't look at it? What was that? What was it, though?

There was, I think it had to do with the cell phones. Maybe it was the Ericsson. There was some piece of evidence that was, that she said you're violating the rules of discovery because I never knew about that. And the prosecution was like uh she said you're violating the rules of discovery because i never knew about that and and the prosecution was like what are you talking about in right here you submitted this and she goes yeah but i never got to look at it so you're not allowed to use that like i go ahead honestly it was charlie kelly lawyering out there how about the next episode

they're teasing that um they're gonna explain if he's a psychopath or something oh that was i think that's i think that's a waste of time that makes me not excited about the next one i'm like if he killed her he's a psychopath it's crazy to strangle someone any whoever strangled him is a psychopath but the whole like people are like oh he seems so normal thus he must be either a sociopath or a psychopath like i'm not every killer always sounds like a killer except if you're finalberg and then you can just hear it in his voice i can hear it i can either a sociopath or a psychopath, like, not every killer always sounds like a killer, except if you're Feidelberg, and then you can just hear it in his voice. I can hear it.

I can sense it, man. Well, you bring up a good point. Well, not a good point, but just... No, it's a good point. You sound like you're not excited. No, you were right. You sound like you're not excited for the next episode. You know, we're kind of getting to the finish line here. We're in, like, the home stretch.

Do you think, like, what are your thoughts on, do you feel like it's like losing steam? Do you think that, cause like at this point I actually, I was arguing and talking about it all weekend long and I found myself kind of like making the same arguments and going back to the same points that there's not enough evidence. And like, I feel like she kind of laid it all out on the line, the first seven, eight, nine episodes. And now we're really kind of getting down to like the nitty gritty where where it's like all right is he a psychopath and like what else really is there is there going to be another like bombshell or another twist or have we kind of just heard everything there is here well i think one i i saw on reddit

that um the innocence program or project whatever has or was preparing to make a motion but the motion was to see if any further dna evidence can be recovered i'm like is 15 years later i mean i you see it in the movies you see cold case stuff so there is that maybe you'll get an update on that i don't think that'll be a bombshell i think they're gonna do next episode um whatever about a psychopath like whatever the psychology of all that is, I don't know if it's going to be any good, but then you're right. It's sort of at the end and you,

there can't really be a huge twist, but I do hope that Sarah Koenig gets, we get an extensive interview with Adnan again, and she really goes like, just puts them on the, like basically puts them on the stand and says, what happened? What's your story? And I'm praying. I really goes, like, just puts him on the, like, basically puts him on the stand and says, what happened? What's your story?

And I'm praying, I really hope, I think it could actually be, like, a great finale if he says, of course Jay did it. Of course I think Jay did it. Jay did it. But he hasn't said that, and that's very perplexing. No, he's not going to say that. He's already said he's not going to point fingers

and whatever like that. I know, but that's what I think would be a great show. I don't know if he'll do that. I think that is actually my sticking point as to why I couldn't say that he didn't do it because it doesn't make any sense for him to just be like, I've got this guy. He's spelling out a story for me. He's saying he buried the body. And if I'm going to say I'm innocent, I got to say, well, that guy did it. And he's not doing that.

So that's the two major points and fights you brought this up earlier. One, he's not pointing the finger at anybody else. He's refusing to implicate anybody else if he does know. And two, he wanted to take that plea deal. He didn't want to take a plea deal. That was the big point to me. It's not that he wanted to take a plea. It's he was asking for a plea. There wasn't one on the table, and he's telling Christina, ask for a plea deal that was the big point to me it's not that he wanted to take a plea it's he was

asking for a plea there wasn't one on the table and he's telling christina ask for a plea now i mean that's totally different to me i get that if i'm a 17 year old like doe-eyed kid who believes in the process and was like i'm fucking innocent like you're gonna if i'm innocent if i know i didn't do it even if they offer a plea you're gonna have to really fucking convince me to sign that if i'm innocent i'm not gonna ask you to go get one when i was 17 i wasn't smart enough to just go to my room for the rest of the night rather than turn it into a big fight with my parents and get grounded for the week like i was like i didn't fucking do anything i'm not going to my room right i'm not going to be like i'll go to jail for 20 years over something i know i didn't do now they offer a plea and they offer a real sweet plea you can maybe i can be

convinced to sign it but i'm not going to ask for it now it makes sense like that seems like human nature to me like if you're totally innocent you would you would just like you would never be willing to go to jail for you know yes it's better than going to jail for life but you're still talking about like probably 15 20 25 years you're not just going to be like, yeah, please sign me up for that. Well, what was the plea? Do we know what it was? There was a level of, you know, where Adnan in the beginning was like, I was a 17-year-old kid. I really didn't think that this was actually happening. I thought that like we were going to get – we were going to – I was going to get off on this.

I really didn't think they were going to be able to pin it on me because I was innocent. I didn't do anything. But, Fights, if you're going through this process and all of a sudden you start to see the writing on the wall and you see your lawyer bombing and you see that this case, everything's just going the wrong way for you.

But you don't see that. And is there a death penalty? If there's a death penalty, you can plea to life in prison and just not die. No, there wasn't a death penalty you can you can plead to life in prison and just not die no there wasn't death penalty no i don't know they explained death penalty penalty was off the table i forget the reasoning but they did explain death penalty was off the table um but he didn't he like he he gives no evidence or or leads you to believe for no reason that he wasn't trusting christina like he didn't see her melting

down he says he's like i trusted her wholeheartedly i thought i trusted her more than anything in the world i don't think anybody could have sat there through that and been like i'm gonna win this thing this is awesome you're 17 and you don't know how a trial works and every every night when you're meeting with her she's like it's going great it's all going according to plan you're not gonna be like you're gonna be all right yeah i mean he says he trusted her wholeheartedly i can only listen to him. Well, and there was a lot of that with the second family as well, where they were kind of like,

you haven't like talked to us in months and you haven't written that motion. And everyone was kind of like, this is just how Christina does things. And they all were like, all right, we'll just, we'll take you at your word for it because what do we know? I mean, I guess there's no reason to believe that Adnan, you know, knew or realized, but I think that's no reason to believe that Adnan, you know, knew or realized. But I think that's entirely possible. I think that there's a reason why all five million people who are listening to this podcast all immediately are like, this chick was the worst lawyer ever.

I do think that there could easily be a time where you're like, I didn't do it, but we fucked this up and I'm going to lose this case. So let's just be realistic about it. I don't think there's any way to tell. But I do think it's a possibility. I don't think a 17 year old makes that call. Like I said, you could maybe convince me. Maybe you come into the room and you're like, listen, this is a sweet deal.

You're out in five years. It sounds bad, but trust me, the alternative words, maybe you can convince me. So you don't think a 17-year-old could just say, can we ask? Because maybe there's a sweet deal. Maybe there's a 10-year deal. I've done one year in prison. Maybe, can I get 10?

Could you ask? Can we ask a judge if I can get 10? Can we ask the prosecution? That's all that requesting a plea is. I don't think a 17-year-old makes that call. If I'm like, I'm fucking innocent. If I know for a fact I'm innocent I'm not like can I just stay in here until I'm 30

I think once you know you're innocent And they keep you in jail for a year Just because one guy is lying about you You start to distrust the system You don't think no no this is all going to work out good Nothing has worked out good for you so far And again I'm saying like If he said I want to plea

And they said okay you know 45 years and he he may say no but if they said five years 10 years okay manslaughter who you don't know what they're going to offer you also don't know who he's hearing from like i don't know some family member visits him and says dude listen there's a dead girl and there's a muslim guy in america on the stand you're going to be like you're not going to win this if you trust your lawyer wholeheartedly you don't you're you'll maybe you'll run that buyer and should like no like we're fine but that's what maybe that's what running a buyer was maybe he just said hey christina can we do a plea and she just goes no you're going to win okay well now he's requested a plea and that's it that's what this appeal is about is that he did

ask for it and she she you know she he ran it he asked to run a buyer and she kind of shut it down didn't that's what this the the crux of this appeal is now going to be about i just don't think that you can you can again a lot of these things are like you it's it seems weird behaviorally it seems weird if you're innocent to say i'll just i'll admit that i did it that does seem bizarre it does seem bizarre that he didn't uh page his girl when she was missing. All of those things do seem funny. But you know what? You probably act a little weird when you've been accused of murder.

If you have so many, that does seem funny. I mean, if it walks away a duck and talks to a duck. I don't think, I don't need CSI evidence to fucking convince me. I think we talked about this last episode. I think you guys are kind of like, everything needs to be perfect. It really looks like this kid did it. It really, really, really looks like it.

To me, it genuinely doesn't seem like he did it to me. It just seems like Jay's story is being believed and Adnan's is not. I think exactly like what you said like this is what happened and everyone's like okay why don't like why if people just believe that adnan was at track practice the same way then he would be fine right and you believe john you said it's who sings first so because you know this all started with they they check the the phone records and then you go this is. You keep calling this girl Jen.

And you don't even know Jen. And then because they talk to Jen first, Jen goes to Jay. And now all of a sudden Jay is like, let's tell a story. I'm going to talk to you. I want to talk to the cops. But if they go to Adnan first and they're like, yeah, at the time of a murder, my phone is there. Jay had my phone. Then all of a sudden it just is who started talking first.

And if they decided Jay was the suspect, they didn't search anything. They didn't, like, you know, how come there's no evidence against Jay? Because they didn't look for anything because he just said, here's a story. And they were like, that story is good enough for us. I think there's no reason. Like, you're talking about how, oh, like, Adnan didn't seem mad. Adnan was, you know, he wasn't upset about this. And you're like, oh, like adnan didn't seem mad adnan was you know he wasn't upset about this and you're like oh that's not a reason you know he didn't have the reason to kill her that you think he had well jay had even less so i think jay played but that just makes it even that just

makes it even nobody had motive okay so we're at square one but no one one guy who we know had the phone you know and and knows all about this stuff. And was like hiding and cleaning evidence. And changed his story three or four times. He was hiding and cleaning evidence because he admitted to burying a dead body. Yeah, he was destroying that evidence. Okay, but even so going by your logic of just like I don't need CSI evidence. I can just like look at the situation. We're talking about a dude who fucking just willingly buried a dead body that he really had no involvement with.

Well, you know, supposedly. That doesn't seem weird to you? That's not enough for you to be like, maybe that guy murdered him. It's weird. It's definitely weird. I mean, he played a huge part in it. I think the argument is you can – I think if Jay got jail time, I think this would – everyone would just accept the story at face value.

Like, yeah, he okay he did he did his time for helping bury a body that someone else murdered but I think it becomes weird because he got off so easily it's it's he played he played his part he admits to playing his part he got a very very sweet deal so fights when somebody when somebody just starts telling you all sorts of stories you're at you're at the you know the office and you know your sandwich goes missing and hank's like no it wasn't me i was over here and then you're like no i saw you you were in right by the fridge and he's like oh yeah well maybe i was by the fridge and you know like all sorts everything changes changes changes when when your story just conveniently floats around you don't get suspicious of that at all you think like ultimately this guy

is probably going to tell the truth he's's probably going to, probably going to eventually get around to it. I'm suspicious of Jay. I don't think Jay's innocent by any means. I'm suspect, but like he has less of a reason to murder her than Adnan does. But that's the thing. It's like just saying that there's a person with less motive or a lesser case against him doesn't mean that the case against the actual guy is strong.

You know what I mean? It's just like, you're basically saying it's either Jay or Adnan, and when I compare the two, it looks more like Adnan. I don't really think that's – But it is Jay or Adnan. No one thinks – I don't think this was like a random murder. I don't – I mean, I don't think there's anything concrete enough

to say one way or the other. I mean, I get what you're saying and i can i guess there wasn't enough evidence to convict maybe you can maybe you can say that i don't think so i i i think i not did it whether we know that there's enough evidence on a trial i think i none did it my point has always been and i think it applies here too like if we came into this podcast and we all learned about this story and Jay was on the stand instead of Adnan, you would believe the case against Jay just as much. I'd be like, why did this guy help bury his dead girlfriend who was murdered, who he wasn't mad at and he still loved? No, I'd be like, why is this guy saying all he did was bury it when he clearly did the murder? In a flip situation,

Adnan's the one who helped bury the body. Kevin just flipped it, so if we're flipping it, Adnan's the one who knew about the murder going in. I was just thinking about flipping who was on trial. I understand what you're saying it

doesn't hold up completely because it's like one guy was dating her and one guy wasn't but i'm just saying that the the the weird suspicions around jay and the way he just always gets caught lying for someone they're not like major lies they're like little little tiny lies oh it's an hour different it was i told he told me about the murder the night before rather than the morning of those are like those are little switches very little little switches that conveniently work better for him like they were like oh you yeah the body was over here and they're like there's no way it was over there because all your your phone was nowhere near there all right well if you know that then i gotta change

it okay now it was in best buy now you know i mean like that's when you are when your story is getting shot down at every turn there's there's a reason you're lying where was the body first edmondson ev which was like miles and miles and miles away oh that's where the that's where the trunk pop went how does that how does that but how does that hurt a little lie like how does that hurt Adnan more how does the first one hurt Adnan more how does no how does it hurt Jay Adnan because he that's who he's presumably trying to get in trouble right how does it how does it hurt Adnan more wherever it is well I mean it's about whether or not Jay is telling the truth so he's just like jay i mean honestly because this is what i think if jay just killed this girl randomly and you know was like okay so the car was on edmondson app because i know there's no no um cameras there so i'm gonna say it was over there

and then they're like we absolutely know that you weren't over there because we we know where your phone was so it's like why were you just making where, where this thing was at a time where John, I don't think that really becomes a little lie. It's like, you would know where you opened up the trunk and saw that dead body. Like, that's a big lie to me where again, we're just kind of the way we're speaking about this is like gut feelings and your intuition and shit. And if some dude tells me the dead, I first saw the dead body here. And then it's like, nah nah that's absolutely wrong it was over here i i'm absolutely suspicious of that guy now and then we went out and then we went out and we hung out in the park and we smoked weed and we watched the sunset and then they were like there's no way you could have got to that

park it is so far away and you were on the other side of town oh yeah i just told that story about the park because i don't you know why because i was just i didn't think anybody was going to be able to verify any of this stuff he went and watched and smoked weed with the in the park and adnan told him i can't believe i killed her where i fucked her i can't believe i killed her with my bare hands so he just was like he just killed someone and then he went to a park to smoke weed and talk about it and just like confess to jay no like that's not what you do when you murder someone you freak out unless you're a psychopath unless you're a psychopath cue the music it's funny that uh i actually am excited for that episode i didn't think it was like i i want i

want to hear if they like somehow brought in a psychiatrist or something to like examine his behavior and say like, yes, this is consistent with being a psychopath. Because again, a lot of this always comes back to like, a lot of people just find Adnan charming. A lot of people just believe him when he talks. And is that a form of psychopath behavior? Or is that just like, I don't't know dude was a personable guy i actually am interested to to kind of hear what she i mean what she has come up with as far as trying to prove one way or the other if he was or if he was not it just i mean you know like i it sounds to me like bc thinks that jay murdered him with his bare hands and he was her with his bare hands and

he was the one and has now like set up some big frame job why would he randomly murder a girl he kind of knows well how about this so the story that just didn't come out like the the story that was never investigated by christina was said that jay was cheating on stephanie and hay was going to confront her so confront him about it so if if hay is like you know they they run into each other somewhere or jay goes to confront her and says you're cheating on stephanie i'm gonna tell stephanie i'm gonna ruin your relationship and he flips out i mean it doesn't happen instantaneously but like you you know he can get mad he can he can punch her and then he freaks out he's like

oh my god i mean strangling someone is crazy but strangling someone because they broke up with you months ago is also very – is also ridiculous. I mean it doesn't make any sense either. You can't just be like, oh, they – She just started fucking that new guy. That's what we call a stressor on Criminal Minds. That's a stressor. She starts taking that new dick, and then you're like, oh, that son of a bitch.

By the way, highlight of episode 10 was your girl Sarah dropping money shots. She starts taking that new dick. And then you're like, oh, that son of a bitch. By the way, highlight of episode 10 was your girl Sarah dropping money shots. No chance she knows what that really means, right? I hope not. I mean, honestly, every male from, you know, like age 18 to 50 who was listening to that perked up when she dropped money shots. One of those vibes like 69 or someone who says anal in regular conversation. He was just like, whoa. All right. I like my mind is now off this and we're thinking about something totally

different right now. It's like, you know, that everyone's thinking about someone coming on a girl's face right now, Sarah. Right. I'm not thinking about a murder anymore, bitch. Yeah. I mean, I like we'll keep doing this you know we'll keep going episode by episode i i do think that there is some element

of like everyone kind of has their philosophy and their mindset made up already like like i i john you can we can talk to your blue in the face and i can talk to line blue in the face i don't think either of us is convincing the other to no but i'm i also i listen to your arguments like the face and I can talk to my blue in the face, I don't think either of us is convincing the other to change. I also listen to your arguments. I get that the J thing is weird, but it's... I think if I was ever on a jury,

my gut would tell me within a day. By the end of the first day, I'd probably know. That's how you get excused from the jury. Unless you drop a mega bomb on me like within a day i'm i'm made up that's that's a good point though is that like i always think it's funny in law in in trials where it's like strike that from the record like jury just don't let that be in your brain get the fuck out that's not that's getting them more permanently in my

brain yeah exactly now i'm really great like Now I'm really going to believe what happened. Speaking of bullshit jury lawyer stuff, how about that fucking pussy prosecutor being like, I'm going to object to Christina calling my co-counsel an asshole. Okay, suck up. You're adults. That used to piss me off when I was 18 and referees would be like, yeah, you can't swear on the ice in high school hockey. I'm a fucking adult.

If I want to say asshole, I'll say asshole. If I was in a courtroom and you object, you told on me, that's what she did. She went to the recess monitor and fucking told on her for muttering asshole under her breath. I'd stab her right there. Um, yeah, I mean, so like I said, we'll keep doing it with the next episode that comes out. Adnan being a psychopath.

I'm sure after that's going to, I would imagine we're're gonna hear like all the closing arguments and like the very last bits of the trial i'll tell you what i'm done hearing christina's stuff that girl yeah i mean again we're done after hearing you know four or five clips for 20 seconds at a time imagine five fucking days of that getting cross-examined like listening to jay that idiot going yes sir no sir yes ma'am no ma'am over and over and over again while she's doing, stabbing out. Was it an Erickson phone? That doesn't fucking matter, lady.

Did you look into this? Are you just winging it today? Are you talking about a fucking Erickson phone? They brought up that point about how when she did the first ever DNA case in Maryland, how she went to a school and explained it to children and if they didn't get it she started over if I was one of those kids I'd have gone to the bathroom

and drowned myself in the toilet this fuck remember when you used to get mad those kids said they understood because they were like will you stop talking exactly remember when you had the dumb kid in class who always raised his hand and everyone would be like dude shut up let's get this lesson over with.

That's what those kids are. They're all just shaming each other and being like, dude, just just say you get it. Just say you get it. So this lady gets the fuck out of my life forever. Yeah, I understand complex DNA. Lady, I'm a third grader. Get the fuck out of here. Hey Gutierrez, I just pooped in my pants.

Of course, I don't understand the fucking double helix DNA. Oh, you don't get it yet here let's start again don't you fucking dare lady don't you dare do it but it sounds to me like she did used to be all like thorough like that and when you're you know 10 20 30 years into your career or whatever and you're dying and you're addicted to drugs you probably start to mail it in and everyone and mail time yeah that i mean that that's basically the crux of it but it is funny like i i got people after that episode who would tweet me like well what do you think about adnan now after that episode like you you have to totally change your your mind now right i agree with that i've got the same people tweeting me like well now i've never been more sure that adnan should be out of jail. It's just...

That was a vindicating episode. What's that? That was a vindicating episode from being like, I fucking knew it. He's guilty. Yeah, see, I mean, that's, I think,

the total opposite. I was like, now more than ever, I cannot believe that a jury convicted this guy. Not saying that, like, he is innocent. Just saying that, like,

how did a jury ever – They convicted him quick too. He's liberated for like an hour and a half. Yeah. Kevin, I think we're learning what it's like to be a hardcore into politics. When you see an issue and you're like, well, my mind's already made up on this. I think that's what we're now. We hear an issue.

We hear something brought up. Well, yeah, no, but that – and we just explain it away with some bullshit no matter what side it goes to that's why it's all bullshit that's why you can't i guess this is how the system works though it's like you know it does just seem like spin control and and like pr publicity moves and shit like that but that's how you fucking convict people i guess that's just how it goes so uh that's it episode two of the podcast of the podcast in the books next uh so i guess you'll be listening to this on tuesday we'll have a new episode thursday and you know we'll keep doing it on the schedule so keep your theories coming keep your feedback coming uh and anything else you want to hear podcast wise about cereal let us know we'll

try to get it done before season one wraps up any final words on episode 10 free Adnan hashtag free Adnan go buy a t-shirt I love all these people like oh well first of all you know if he was a murderer then yes I'm selling a t-shirt

of a murderer but all this talk of like I can't believe you're profiting off of this while we're listening to a podcast with advertising on it. Like, don't don't give me that. It's a pop culture sensation at this point. There's money to be made. I'm getting my hustle on. While a significant portion of those people are probably wearing a Ray Lewis jersey, too. Yeah, give me a fucking break. Get off your high horse. Like all these people are really so concerned for Hey Min and her family you don't fucking care about that girl this isn't even real previously on

cereal was lee by the way highlight of episode 10 was your girl sarah dropping money shot about something totally different right now it's like you know that everyone's thinking about someone coming on a girl's face right now sar Sarah, right? I'm not thinking about her anymore, bitch. Was it an Erickson phone? That doesn't fucking matter, lady. Did you fuck out of here? Hey, Gutierrez, I just pooped in my pants. Of course I don't understand the fucking double helix DNA.

This is a Global Cow Link prepaid call from... It's your boy KFC and your boy Feidelberg. An inmate at a Maryland correctional facility. From KFC Radio Studios in my basement it's serial a podcast about a podcast about a story told week by week all right episode three of seriallessly uh another incredible intro by your boy bc just his finest work. It's better than the podcast.

It's all downhill from here. Better than this podcast or better than Serial? Yeah, it might be better than all of it. Somebody tweeted me the other day, I enjoy listening to Serial-lessly better than Serial because I think at this point, we're just making funny shit up. So is Sarah Koenig, just kind of making things up. Well, that's what this episode was.

Yeah. This episode, it was, you know what this episode was? Like the perfect way to describe it. I actually patted myself on the back when I thought of it. This was her switching her term space and size 14 font

because it was like, I got to get to 12 pages and I'm just, I don't have enough material to get there. 100%. Like the first 20 minutes, I had to go back and i'm just i've got i don't have enough material to get there 100 like the first 20 minutes i i had to go back and re-listen because i was like what did she say it's like now person one would email me and person two would do this what the fuck are you talking about i i kept thinking i i'm missing something important let me go back and listen because i must have missed like

a very key point the rumor that she just wouldn't actually say what it was now all right so let's get into that the entertainment where she just described that sometimes people lie to her when she's investigating the story yeah don't fucking shit don't put that on me that's your job to suss it out i don't fucking care if people lied to you just tell me the truth the episode was called rumors it clearly had the feel of a filler episode i likened it to to the Nicky and Paolo episode of Lost, if you're a Lost fan. The Fly episode of Breaking Bad. Shows where it was just, the creators were basically like, yeah, we need to fill time.

We need to stretch it out to be a full season. But the episode was called Rumors. And in the beginning, she says, I heard a rumor that if this is true, it is a wrap. This investigation is over. He did it and then she she never fucking tells you what it was and she even says she went to the guy who could either like substantiate it

or deny it and his result was a blank look i was like that's not even one way or the other no like what like you you bitch you did me so dirty, SK. And she's done this in the past before where there's been so many details here. So I remember all specifically. But there was a little boy who was a neighbor who said he saw the dead body in the trunk. And then she went and found that guy, and he was just like, no, that never happened. He laughed in her face. So it can't be that she thought, well, this is unsubstantiated, so I'm not even going to present it because it might skew listeners.

Because she's done that before. She's said things and then been like, but I proved that to be not true. Initially, I thought it was it had to be a confession because I think that's a little bit different than the neighbor boy seeing something, but maybe maybe not seeing the right thing or hearing a rumor or something like that but even that to say like it's a rap like so now there's gonna be this third party who we don't even know who he is and she never even identifies even if adnan confessed to him would that really wrap it up the only thing that would be a rap for me would be like video fucking evidence, like nothing else, because everything else is so he said, she said, who's already believe. Oh, here we go. I mean, whoever had, you know, four minutes before Feidelberg just declared it's over and Adnan did it come up and collect your money. All right, fight.

So this is this this episode. While everyone agrees it was kind of filler was a lot of your boy Adnan. Now, I don't expect anybody at this stage in the game to be swayed one way or the other or really be changing their opinion. But a lot of the talk was, is Adnan a psychopath? Is he just a nice, personable guy? And one way or the other, do either of those lead you to believe he did or did not commit murder? Did you, were you affected in any way being a complete Adnan hater? Were you affected in any way by this episode, which was a lot of him kind of opening up? Uh, the, I, the closest i came to believing him was when they had the

british chick i forget who she was with a teacher i think and she's most british british accents she goes she's like planned premeditated murder oh lord no i was like oh fuck like she's got a british accent she might be right dude isn't that true if you have a british accent you're just like instantly smarter in my mind as soon as she started talking i was like well this chick's important i value her opinion there were a lot of voices in this episode i know who i loved was the first guy ali dude sounded like a muslim muppet what what kind of voice they they did him dirty with that alvin simon theodore and fucking ali the kid who sucks at that kickball in gym class. That I mean, that whole part.

Again, I get that you're trying to make it into 12 episodes. And I get that. I wrote this in my blog. There's not enough evidence in this case to have episode 11 be about something tangible. Another murder case, it probably would have been like, here's where we investigate the knife with the fingerprints so here's where you investigate the second and third eyewitness none of that's there so i think you just spent 20 minutes investigating something he admitted to yeah so i i 20 minutes trying to find out if he stole hundreds of thousands of dollars as a 16 year old dude that's like the the wall street video the kid who made 72 million dollars trading on his lunch break adnan was not stealing hundreds of thousands

of dollars from the collection plate i don't know what goes on at mosque but you're not going to become like a millionaire overnight swiping money to steal all of it all of it like for years on end from multiple mosques you just like you just ask him and he's like yeah i did it like i took i took money to go to a movie yeah i mean that although he he was fucking him getting all pissy about her asking that was like he was weird he's like he's like why what he's like why are you always calling me out it's like because you're you got convicted of murder yeah it's like some of these questions are gonna get uncomfortable dude you're you're in jail for murdering a girl and you're pissed off that we're talking about you swiping 40 bucks if we could get that kind of emotion about like you haven't even really denied it yeah you vehemently denied that you murdered stealing money at the time but he won't he

won't deny the murder that whole thing that and and i mean i i just don't give a fuck that he was nice to the fat kid in gym class like good for adnan about him kissing a dude hey it only reinforces our theory it only reinforces our gay theory i think that if and the guy's like the guy goes oh it completely diffused me if a muslim man's angry at me i'm not kissing him that seems like the worst idea ever but he was like he's like yeah like i i i'm not couldn't kill a guy because he kissed me once That was a take that was presented to us Adnan kissed a man once on the cheek To diffuse him when he was angry So he couldn't have murdered that girl

And buried her in a park That might have been the biggest piece of evidence For him being a psychopath That this Muslim man was screaming at him And he just started smooching him What a move! I mean, hey, I'm going to try try it i don't know if i'm ever in a real jam maybe i'll just lay a smooch on you you diffuse the situation what was real weird about all those accounts were like she had people who were vehemently against him and then at the end of the interview

she's like but he's just a real stand-up guy what the fuck what do you what is your point do you like him or not i don't think anything she presented for the first 30 minutes made one bit of fucking difference which it didn't at all yeah at all i mean and and listen this happens in tv shows sometimes like a build-up to the finale like the the penultimate episode is sometimes a letdown. I think there's a weird element of this show unfolding in real time where a lot of people are starting to think it's a victim of its own success. Everybody knows about it now. Adnan at least understands that this show is happening and it's popular. And it's probably illegal for her to do certain things because

the appeal process is still going on it's obviously we learned that adnan speaking about this case can really negatively affect him it just seems to be that like it's gotten so big and so well known that it's almost like whoa whoa we got to shut it down here like let's just let's just let this take its course it's the way the internet works now i'd agree i'd agree that with a victim of its own success but too i just do feel like the earlier episodes were just better than these like well yeah they told the story in the earlier episodes in the last two have been this episode this case does not have enough material for 12 episodes of a podcast it had enough it had enough intriguing grasping material for like seven episodes eight

episodes and now it's kind of dragging to the finish line because like i said all there is is one eyewitness account and a couple stories that corroborate or deny that and that once you run through that you've made up your decision it's why the past couple weeks fights is like he did it we said i say he there's not enough evidence you say he just didn't do it and none of us can really change because nothing new is coming out in each episode. Because nothing new about the case came out. But I mean, like, you know, if this were like a TV show, not every single moment of a TV show is about the facts of the case. Like, you know, you get background.

So, I mean, you did get some emotion out of that. Let me stop you there because that's where you need to decide why, what you like about a serial or why you're listening. Are you listening to this podcast to like truly solve a murder? Cause if you are, you're kind of a fucking idiot. Like if you really expect a big finale where it's like, bam, he did it or Yahtzee,

he's getting out of jail. You are a fucking moron. Reddit did it. Reddit solved the murder. It shocked me that people like there are people exist like that like you started listening to this thinking oh at the end i'll have a conclusion you fucking know you won't yeah you know he's still in jail unless unless the episode comes out at 6 a.m on thursday and he also gets out of jail right then like you're not gonna

get this big finale so if you were waiting for that and you've been waiting for that, you're probably going to think Serial is disappointing. But at the same time, I think that's all people care about is this case and the facts of the case. Like I said, if this was a regular show and you got to hear that emotion out of Adnan, you know that he sent an 18-page letter. But, like, that doesn't matter. You know, like, that's not what you want to hear. Don't you get me started on that one, Brendan, don't you get me started on that. Fights not persuaded by Adnan's letter, huh? No, and I don't think you should be persuaded by it.

I'm just saying that that was like, yeah, some information that you were given. Here's the thing. If you only care about the case. Fights is Fights's reaction right now is why I think episode 11 is not quite as filler as the the beginning was for sure but when she dug into it with adnan and she they talked about the letter and they and they talked about there was an honest conversation and and we'll get into the whole legal aspect where she basically explained why adnan is really not ever speaking openly about the case but i will say that the conversing with adnan was interesting

and obviously fights you freaking out about that letter for just from a looking at like the like i don't know meta is the right word word but like looking at the podcast itself that segment was entertaining whether or not it's going to lead you to know whether he killed someone or not no but you can you you will have a reaction to it. And obviously you had a very visceral one. Well, cause she fucking, she, who, she's talking to that hewing guy, ewing guy. And she's like, you know, and she's like, I'm replaying in my head and I just don't see him being as the manipulating guy. Anyway, here's this 19 page letter he sent me where he talks about how much he loves me and he was scared to say it.

Like, that's, that's what I fucking did to ex-girlfriends when they dumped me i'd be like babe i was just scared to show my emotion like it was i was protecting myself i'm so sorry and then they fucking come running back just like cronic that idiot that's well that's what you did if you didn't murder them i mean it was dennis system to a t that's what he did he went he went dennis system okay right on now Now, here's where this is how this fucking podcast is so interesting because you're either Team Adnan or you're not, and you dig in, but you're also, like, you and Big Cat does this to me, too. They're like, you have gotten played by Adnan and Sarah. And I'm like, you motherfuckers have been played by Jay.

Because either way way you're just believing a story you know and it's just like i wonder if there's a psychological like if a certain type of person if you're like a type a personality you believe that not if you're type b personality you believe jay but this idea that i'm being brainwashed when you motherfuckers are the ones being brainwashed it It pisses me off, John. It pisses me off. I haven't said you've been brainwashed. I maybe thought it, but I haven't said it.

I don't think because I don't even think about Jay. So that's why I don't think I've been brainwashed by Jay. That's exactly my point. You should be thinking about Jay. The only reason this dude, the finger has been pointed at this dude, is because of Jay's story, and you're taking it as such gospel that you won't go back and look at the guy who's telling you the story, who's constantly lying.

But he doesn't have a reason to kill her. That's so ridiculous. What's his reason? We don't have a motive for adnan either no well no no no no no we can't i don't want to go down this road again i'm just saying that you you're just hearing well it's the ex-boyfriend he must be jealous he that's always the ex-boyfriend well see okay so here's the thing you're a fucking baby that's just like you watch csi and you believe everything you hear is just gonna be you done. You literally believe everything you see on TV.

That's the only thing that can possibly back that up. Oh, you literally believe everything you hear in a podcast. This is why this is funny because it is, on some level, you are just listening to a story presented one way or the other. I just think, I think Kroenig sucks. I don't think you've been brainwashed. I think Kronig is, she's been brainwashed by it.

We've been joking for a while that she fucking wants to do the nasty with Adnan. But she always is making excuses for him all the time. And I think I just hate her and I associate Adnan with her and he kind of gets the short end of the stick. That's a good way to put it guilty of

murder because i hate sarah yeah that's a really short end of the stick fights that's as fucking short as a stick gets going to jail for life uh what do you think about uh since you know you're one of your quote-unquote uh fucking arguments pieces of evidence here john and your ridiculous theory is uh my ridiculous theory that your ridiculous theory is that you just believe everything that jay says because that's the only evidence that exists i believe that's it that's it if jay doesn't tell a story you have nothing and so and jay repeatedly would be like oh someone else now we're gonna make up a mystery character if it wasn't jay it would be someone else. Just anyone else. It's the ex-boyfriend.

No one else has a reason to kill her. The ex-boyfriend doesn't have a reason to kill her. He got dumped. How many guys have been dumped? Bro, you are- How many guys kill after they get dumped? A lot. Not a lot.

How many? How many? Okay, ready? I'm going gonna mediate this on the count of three both you put out your murdering ex-boyfriend statistics that neither of you fucking know okay i i would i would i would venture to say that more people are dumped then get dumped and then murder someone i would say that there's a that's that's probably like millions and millions and millions and millions to one no yes agreed but the flip side would be uh the when there is an unexplained

death of a young of a girl that there is a pretty a pretty high percentage that it's an ex who did it you know what i'm saying like yes not everyone it's like it's like the square and the rectangle and the parallelogram sort of thing not everyone who gets dumped murders, but if there is a murder situation, there's probably a big percentage where it's a scorned lover. It's not usually the random weed dealer. Well, do you want me to throw out a stat I read today? Yeah, throw out a stat, bro. 21% of the time.

I don't like this being real stats. I like wild speculation. 21% of the time, it's a boyfriend or an ex-boyfriend. 90% of the time, it's a boyfriend or an ex-boyfriend. 90% of the time, it's someone they know. Wait, what? 21% of the time, it's an ex-boyfriend or boyfriend. 90% of the time, it's just someone within their social circle. He's not in the social circle.

He is. He's friends with the ex-boyfriend. Like, they all hang out together. They all go to parties together. They weren't friends. He says they're not friends. I know, and for some reason, that's the one thing that he says that you believe.

Adnan all this time is lying, but he says this one thing, and you're like, well, that's got to be a fact. Well, because that's an incriminating one. That's when he slips up. That's the one that supports my argument. That's the one that supports the fight over his argument.

But fights. What I was going to say is sarah basically explains why adnan has not been pointing the finger or even really speaking about anybody else involved in this case because it's she basically said like 100 of the time that can be detrimental because if anything if an appeal does go his way and they find out he's been talking about um uh other people in the case that it can undo that or whatever so does that kind of change i mean that's been one of your main things has always been like how come he doesn't say who did it and she's telling you here's why it can hurt him legally no that but that was with what's her

name with the other chick it It was never like Jay. Murderers point the finger at someone else all the time. Exactly, John. Murderers. Innocent people don't, John. His explanation of it was he ain't a snitch. That's what it was, basically. He was like, oh, it can hurt you inside, and he's been inside of you for a while.

And he was like, it's not my job to convince people. If you believe me, you do. If you don't,'t you don't it was such a fucking cop-out answer so you're just gonna i mean and listen i'm not john just said murderers point the finger at someone else and that's what jay's doing and you think that that supports your argument like you just said that jay was the murder you did walk into that one mousetrap mousetrap god i'm like part of the family now that's your first mousetrap. How'd it feel? I know.

It was great. It's nice to be here. I mean, okay. So you have every right to just, I guess, not believe when Sarah said that. I mean, I'm just going to kind of take this girl at her word

because if you don't believe anything she says, this whole podcast is stupid. I'm just going to choose to believe that there is some element of truth to the fact that if he's in there speaking about the case, talking about it in any way that could hurt him, that he would just shut up. He would just be quiet about it while his appeal is still going through. I mean, and this is where, I mean, I'm not just, I'm not, not, I'm not saying you're

right or wrong or I'm right or wrong. It's just, and this is where you hit these roadblocks arguing about this, this case. It's just like, that makes sense to these roadblocks arguing about this this case it's just like that makes sense to me it might not make sense to you you might just be like i don't care about that he should still be saying who really did it or that i didn't do it or whatever it may be she's i mean she said she's like she does one thing which is like people put themselves in your shoes which i'm obviously doing and she's done it she's done that that pissed me off when she said that because in this show she's like i just know i'd react differently like And she's done it. She's done that. That pissed me off when she said that because in this show, she's like, I just know I'd react differently. Like she's said that.

I can't remember what episode, but she's put herself in his shoes before too. And yeah, that's what I do. I put myself in his shoes and I just know like I'd be saying yes. And I wrote this in my blog. I just don't think. Or I'd be saying anybody. I just don't think you can put yourself in that guy's shoes. I just don't think it's possible.

It's like not every single person who's in jail just constantly screams, I'm innocent, I'm innocent, I'm innocent. It just isn't happening. You don't hear about it. It seems weird, but eventually accept it. Well, doing a fucking podcast on it is pretty, not everyone in jail does that. Not everyone in jail is approached by somebody from NPR radio to say, I want to do a show with you. But you can't be like, okay, I'll do a show about how I say I'm innocent, but from NPR radio to say, I want to do a show with you. But you can't be like, OK, I'll do a show about how I say I'm innocent, but I'm never going to say I'm innocent.

Yeah, that is a little weird. It's like if you're going to go down this road and do these interviews, what's your point? But again, if you're legally advised that, listen, you presented a story that you're going to appeal, you can't change the argument to that. Then if that was me and someone told me, speaking about this, yeah, speaking about this can harm you. Then I'm not going to tiptoe around it in a bunch of conversations. I'm just shutting it down. When we hear those conversations with him on the phone, I think his lawyer is sitting next to him the entire time. And he's saying, you can recount the facts of this story that's on record. You can recount your testimony, but you can't speculate in any way, shape, or form about what could be done or what couldn't be done.

You know what he's doing with this? He's doing the curb anonymous where he's like, yeah, okay, maybe, Sarah, you can say I'm innocent, but I didn't say that. I would never say I'm innocent. He might be. I mean, maybe that's part of his angle is like maybe getting the story out there without saying anything incriminating was in his interest. like a manipulative move from a cycle now that that that part of the show drove me crazy where it was just like i mean if you if you didn't throw the

word psychopath out there like the way she did i would never assume that stuff to mean you are a psychopath like a lot of the shit that she was talking about like yeah maybe you're manipulative and smooth and shit like that but they throw this label on it like all of a sudden he's dexter fucking morgan and all of a sudden people are like yeah he's a psychopath murderer and it's just like i think there's a big leap between like he was he was very charismatic and like could persuade people to he's a psychopath with no feelings of empathy well i i think that she was trying to make the point of like it is very weird to hear the two stories like to see how he is and and how he behaves now and to hear jay say he strangled her strangled her and he's happy about it they think they're

tough and i'm a i mean i think the reason for that is because jay is 100 lying like yeah i'm not just i don't think he said that whatsoever and it's like you can say i'm swayed by hearing adnan speaking hearing the way he talks and things like that but i mean that is like a character judgment but also the fact that jay lies every single opportunity he has so this probably just goes along with that you know he's like well how do I strengthen his case? I'll say he was fucking loving it. And he was,

it was great. And he enjoyed it. I, I, I, I, I, I,

I, everything I make up is a lie, but I think that that is where you have to, to reconcile that in your brain. You have to say like, if he's that, then he, then,

and then he's also this where he's like, then he must be had like a psychopath. Then, then there's gotta be something in him. That's like literally like, it's like a multiple must be had like a and like psychopath then then there's got to be something in him that's like literally like it's like a multiple personalities almost like well a reason for that she hit us with the fucking fugue state like i haven't seen uh breaking bad yeah i mean like oh sometimes people just forget like sometimes people are holding a knife standing over a dead body wondering what just happened but then even that guy Ewing says, like, it's usually not it's not like the like the amnesia that has to happen in a TV show where you literally don't remember any of it. He's like, you may black out a few things, but if you did it, you know, it's in your head.

I mean, again, I think that was a lot of filler there by Sarah trying to be like, because even he says he's like, maybe at the end, it's just does this mean he's a psychopath and he's like maybe you can't say he is can't say he isn't again for you know the 500th time with all these things it's it's not nothing is concrete these are all things that are like doctors and and law enforcement you can get all their opinions but you can't really decide one way or the other because it's just not enough concrete evidence um i thought the thing that was very interesting, just in general, about the law, the legal system, was the definition of premeditated. Because I've always thought in this case,

if this was like a premeditated murder, why was it in the middle of the day at a parking lot in Best Buy? And if you're really, quote unquote, as I see it and the way I think of it from Hollywood, premeditated planning this murder, I'm doing it in the middle of the night with gloves on and a weapon so I don't have to strangle them with my bare hands and all that shit. And then I kind of learned this episode that premeditated just means like – it could mean like months of like dangerous dangerous violent thoughts bubbling up and then that surprised me at first too but then i thought about it it makes sense because like it's it's either premeditated or it's a current passion like i punched a hole in my wall before out of anger that was just passion

that was just a quick lash out and like a media i'm like ah fuck i shouldn't have done that right but i if i just think about if i'm just angry for days i'm like i need to hit something i need to hit something i need to hit something. I need to hit something. I need to hit something. That's like you had time to calm yourself down or to say that's a bad idea. You had time to choose a different path. Agreed. And that's where I think, you know, but I think it's interesting because when you're dealing, if we're dealing with a scorned lover situation where emotions run high and people like get overwhelmed and shit.

It still seems like something where you could snap and john like you said like you punch a wall if you like hit a fuck you punch her in the face and she i'm just saying i still think that you can have a uh a bad moment where you didn't mean to like kill someone or something went wrong. Even if you had like months of bad feelings or violent feelings building up, you know what I mean? I think it's just like,

I didn't articulate that well, but it doesn't seem like I think the court makes a distinction of like when something really isn't premeditated, it's like, you don't even know that person, right? Like the person just showed up and, and something went wrong and you got in a fight and they ended up dead.

And it's like whereas it can be considered premeditated if you are antagonizing them or if they're antagonizing you. And it was building and building and building. I just think that's an interesting wrinkle I guess against Adnan where it's like I am sitting here going like premeditated. Like he sat here and planned it out for this girl and like it doesn't seem like he did that at all when that's not really the case maybe it's just like you know premeditated means she got a new boyfriend and that had been bothering him for a while and we think he had like you know some some violent thoughts and said said some things like i hate that girl and what what do you attach more or less punishment to premeditated like i think

it's like i certainly it would be a huge strike against him if it was, like, planned out. Like, I wrote down the book. Whereas if you're just calling premeditated the fact that he was always angry at her and getting more and more angry at her and killed her. I mean, like, I don't know. Like, I don't think you should be excused either way. So that doesn't really matter. True, true, true. All right.

So, I mean, I guess that kind of wraps up wraps up like what little was brought to us in episode 11 and thursday we're we're on to the finale i mean everyone on this show has a brain so we know that it's not going to be like a you know a big finale where we get our evidence one way or the other, our conclusion one way or the other. I, I, I guess I just want to lay it out. Like, so fights like at the end of the day,

you believe, I mean, there's, there's a lot, a lot to run through here, but I guess it's like, you believe that there were phone calls made from Adnan to Jen. Adnan to Jen. Adnan's phone. Adnan's phone to Jen during the time that this murder was supposedly going down.

Jen says that Jay, that it was from Jay. And so, Fights, you just believe that they were murdering together and that and it's i mean it's it's such i can't even follow the timeline of what you believe happened to even reiterate it so it just makes no sense to me it's like the don't make me out to be the crazy person you are the crazy believes what like the people on the jury believed i'm the normal one i don't think there was this big conspiracy you're you most people agree with you believe i'm outnumbered in this but if we're talking real world most people think adnan did it yeah well most people are dumb though you haven't learned that the vast majority of the people out

there are not when they agree with me kevin let's you you you know this you you know the specifics this is why because just just listen no no no argument aside like don't no fights argument here just lay out if you really truly think adnan just did it what what do you have to believe like the time like the way it unfolds these phone calls were made they were made when the murder was supposedly and the burying was supposedly happening and they went to this girl jen they said you have phone calls from these from this this phone while the murder was going down right well i'll i'll take you right to the point where i where i think everything starts to divide to me this you know they found the body because for a while for i think a month it was about a month, you couldn't really investigate it as a murder. You didn't have a body.

Because it was a missing person. You didn't have anything. Yeah. It was just like this girl really could have just run away with her boyfriend or run away to California. So you find the body and all of a sudden everything has to rev up. Now, I think even before the anonymous phone call, you still – you would obviously look at Adnan, right? Because, I mean, the boyfriend did it. CSI.

I don't even understand why you needed any evidence. I mean, they should have just scooped him up and thrown him in jail. They should have just killed him right on the, I mean, the boyfriend did it. CSI. I don't even understand why you needed any evidence. I mean, they should have just scooped him up and thrown him in jail. They should have just killed him right on the spot. They needed some evidence, but you talk to him for a second and you get it. Right. So, well, actually, yeah. You talk to him and he just says, I don't know, man. That was six weeks ago and literally

I didn't do anything that I don't normally do. On the other hand, you eventually get like an in-depth story filled with holes from from two people trying to corroborate a story but that doesn't arouse any suspicion okay okay you just take what they what did i say you're not supposed to be arguing here you're supposed to be presenting you're really all right you're the you're the judge you're you're you're you're croning me yeah you're presenting the evidence all right you see it. No skewing. You just got to give it to me. Okay. So, and I'll do the best to actually get evidence because it's short.

It's very, it's like you only get to the very first part. There you do it again. Objection. Okay. Oh, it's sustained. Sustained. All right. All right.

Withdrawn. So, all right. So, they suspect Adnan, and I'm fine with that. They subpoena his call record. They start looking at his calls, and the only thing that they really know is when Hay disappeared. So, okay, we've narrowed it down. We have her at school. Then we have her where she's supposed to be, and she's not there.

So it's like 2.30, 3.30 that we have to start looking. But we're going to look at the whole day, too. And actually, they only have one day prior because he only got the phone one day prior. 3 30 that we have to start looking but we're going to look at the whole day too and actually they only have one day prior because he got he only got the phone one day prior so you only have a certain amount of evidence so you look at that and you notice that out of the 30 calls he made in that entire day 25 of them are to one person they're to jen you start poking around you find out that he doesn't really even know jen he's not that close with Jen. Regardless, we're going to go talk to her. She says, I'm not talking to you.

Freaks out. Runs away. Suspicious. Fights. Suspicious. Being, you know, just the guy who goes on his gut and has these feelings about something. You go to a girl.

You say, listen, there was a bunch of phone calls made from a supposed murderer here to you. Why did happen she goes i'm not talking to you i'm not talking to you that's no that's how i do it with police okay okay so you're not paying attention to the news kevin the cops are running wild i'll tell you you can't have dreaded trust in them okay continue with the evidence here so from there she disappears for while, but we don't we don't get to find out what she was doing until later. She comes back to you and is willing to talk and says those phone calls weren't from Adnan. Like you think because you are like you want me to tell you that he picked up the phone and was like confessing or or gay or I'm going to you know, she heard something that was incriminating. Those phone calls were from somebody else, from her best friend, Jay who were okay i'm not allowed to say anything about jay so now fights

again we're gonna so the police say all right there was a bunch of murder there was a murder going on it was a bunch of phone calls during that window of time from this phone and a girl says it was this guy Jay on that phone. You're still not thinking that's suspicious. I don't think anyone, I don't, why would Jay call her? Jay's friends with her. So you think Jay's calling her in the middle of a murder? I think it's more of a stretch to be like,

well, it's probably the guy who's not on the phone who's murdering her. You don't think the guy on the phone who's murdering her you don't think the guy on the phone would be doing the murder you think you don't think maybe adnan's murdering her and jay's like what the fuck is this guy doing he's murdering a girl right now valid okay sustained or whatever understood continue the evidence that's not what he says what did he say he he he says comes up with this whole story he has how it's not him he just immediately launches into this whole story about how i've got all these i've got all these things that prove it's not me like that just sounds to me like he's reacting to a like

yeah you've got something that makes it look like me here's all this stuff why it's not me and all that is lies like and they can then prove it they're like no man objection objection you're skewing again okay well so that that's where the evidence ends and stories begin that's it and so right now i think so all it does he just gets to the point where jen says it was this dude jay on the phone. And then from there on out, it's whether you believe Adnan being like, I don't really know what happened. I was at track practice. I don't have anything out of the ordinary to tell you to prove my innocence. Or it's the guy, Jay, who has the story that is proven wrong a bunch of times involving all the details of a murder.

Pieces are proven wrong. But like very big pieces. I don't put – I think our biggest separation is like you think the difference between 330 and 246 is so crazy where I'm like, no, that makes makes like, I don't think you don't think you don't think anything. You don't go. You don't think that like consistent, a consistent pattern of lies speak to credibility. Like you would just allow someone to continue to lie and make up stories until they say something that you're like, this proves someone else guilty. Like you're he's just like, oh, he told me he was going to murder him in Patapsco Park. And they're just like everything points to you not being anywhere near there and then he's just like okay i was at best buy and you're like okay good enough like i mean if the story is going if you're going to convict someone

based on one person's testimony how can you not take into consideration their credibility? If you want to go with that route where there is not as much evidence, I can listen to that one. I can side with Kevin where it's like, alright, there's not too much evidence. My heart says he did it. But I can see the argument where there's not too much. There is enough

to convict. So if you want to go with that, I can listen to that argument i just don't think i think jay's believable i think jay's why that's my main thing because that story makes sense no it doesn't because it's made up there's a million fucking holes in it and it doesn't make sense why he would a not why he would say he saw the body in one place when it actually turned out to be in another it doesn't make sense why he would be like wiping evidence down with with jen while adnan is apparently just off at that like if you literally just want to talk about the uh the story of how a murder happened and you're saying like this makes

sense it's just like they adnan killed this girl called Jay, like somehow convinced him he should get down with hiding this body. And then at some point they bury it. And then Adnan just takes off. And Adnan just gets dropped off at home and then is like, I'm done, man. I'm going to go to mosque. You like he doesn't say anything. And then Jay's like whoa we should probably dispose of some evidence let me get my friend jen involved so that we can do

that like all of that is not just like yep makes sense like that all that is like this is fucking weird so i mean it can happen any story involving a dead girl at 17 is a weird story but you just said it all made sense you were like this is all logical. No, I think when you start at an ex-boyfriend killing his girlfriend, that's a believable story. The random, they've said multiple times that they're not friends. They don't hang out. It was weird for them to be together all day. But then isn't it weird to just randomly call this guy and that guy helps you bury the body? Like, you're just like, well, now, well, since a murder was committed, all the rules of logic are out the window.

Literally anything could happen. Like an eagle could have flown down and picked up this body and buried it in Leaking Park by itself because once murder happens, all the all the rules of logic are out the window. Like it. I mean, like still like regular things still happen. Right. People still behave like normal people, like them just being like, oh, we're just going to go buy weed. You're just like, well, maybe sometimes you just bury bodies and then go smoke weed.

Maybe that happens. Maybe you do. But then this is all the reverse. You gotta pull out somehow, Brendan. This is all the reverse of innocent until proven guilty. This is just like, well, well, we think that this could happen.

I jumped in 15 years after he was guilty i can assume he's guilty first i don't i don't have to assume innocence anymore but if you listen to the story he was presumed he was not presumed innocent first he was just been like well with one guy's boyfriend one guy said it that's it that's all there is to it i just i mean what it all boils down to is that, you know, people think, you know, that if you think Adnan didn't do it, you're the ones getting brainwashed. When in reality, the only people who would think Adnan did it are people who have been completely brainwashed by a liar and like the system that just pointed it in that direction. Is that who we're putting on trial now?

The legal system. That's what we're putting on trial now the legal system that's where we're gonna it's not even there are no flaws in that legal system i'm just saying john we talked about this in our first episode it was just like cops try to make a case that gets a conviction and lawyers want convictions too and this dude jay was the only thing they had to go on and they looked past all the fucking lies that he told all the, all the discrepancies and all the, like just the fact that he had all sorts of evidence and, and store like information about the murder rather than just be like,

well, maybe that guy did it. They're just going to believe him pinning on someone else. Do you know who got the Asia stuff thrown out? The same prosecutor who hooked him up with the, you know, member Gutierrez freaked out mr yorick that guy just says i received a phone call from asia and she wanted to recant her whole

story and that's it then that that whole story just goes away because that prosecutor was like i talked to her trial but he just like that that whole story just gets to get thrown out because that guy who was thrown out, he was never brought in. No, but I'm just saying, like, that's the only reason that people are like, oh, maybe that maybe that Asia story doesn't apply because he because she recanted it. He just said that's he just he just said, oh, I got a phone call and she wants to recant. And she's this is the guy who's been doing shady shit the whole time. Like and everyone's just like, oh, no, that doesn't matter. That doesn't matter because she recanted my my point, though, about where that one spot where real evidence stops coming into play is that if they bother to investigate Jay at all at that point, if they even if they just treated it evenly, there's just so much that could go on. Like he just after after after the murder happened, two other guys get called Patrick and somebody else. Those guys never even get talked to.

Literally, the prosecution is just like those calls don't matter. When I remember at some point they were tracking all the calls. They're just like, we don't even need to investigate that. I just can't see how anybody can be like this case was thoroughly evaluated and there's no way to say that anyone but Adnan did it because they stopped looking. Immediately. Anywhere else. They just stopped. Even though this guy was like, I was very thoroughly involved in this. And it's just we're not going to look at you.

We're not going to look at you. We're not going to look at you. We're not going to look at you. We're not going to look at you. We're not going to look at you. We're not going to look at you. We're not going to look at you. We're not going to look at you.

We're not going to look at you. We're not going to look at you. We're not going to look at you. We're not going to look at you. We're not going to look at you. We're not going to look at you. We're not going to look at you. We're not going to look at you.

We're not going to look at you. We're not going to look at you. We're not going to look at you. We're not going to look at you. We're not going to look at you. We're not going to look at you. We're not going to look at you. We're not going to look at you.

We're not going to look at you. We're not going to look at you. We're not going to look at you. We're not going to look at you. We're not going to look at you. We're not going to look at you. We're not going to look at you. We're not going to look at you.

We're not going to look at you. We're not going to look at you. We're not going to look at you. We're not going to look at you. We're not going to look at you. We're not going to look at you. him a little suspicious because he got a sweet deal. I don't think he would have given that story. I don't think he would have given that story if he wasn't going to get off completely. Like, if he did 10 years, I don't think

you're like, oh, he's definitely guilty. I think it's like, oh, I mean, he admitted to a lot of fucking shit. I don't think he knew going into it that he'll get it. Through a plea deal. Like, he admitted it once he said, we're not going to get you this. Remember how his lawyer mouthed, like, thank you when they said, we're not going to catch you in this. Remember how his lawyer mouthed thank you

when they found out he wasn't going to get jail time? It is a ballsy move to say you were involved in the burying of a body. You knew about it, and you helped bury a body, and you're like, whatever. I don't know how it worked. If he knew ahead of time, yes.

He didn't. I remember her being like, the lawyer mouthed thank you to the judge, which is a weird move. But the lawyer mouthing thank you to the judge afterwards means he didn't know what was coming. Yeah, it's all super shady. All these things worked out in his favor.

That's all very shady. It's all like an inner workings of we need this. If you're going to pin it on someone, totally. Like, are you going to like, oh, I'll do 10 years instead of whatever as a 17-year-old? Like, oh, I don't know what will happen to me, but this story is better. Well, if I committed the murder and I was like, well, I can get 10 years or five years or anything by pinning it on someone, I'd be like, this is better than me getting caught for the murder that I committed. But you think I had just nothing to do with this at all.

I think that. Or do you think the roles were reversed? I think that at the point where there is zero evidence added to the story, it's at best a coin flip. And then from there, I go, well, the guy who keeps lying is more suspicious to me than the guy who's just like, I don't know anything about this murder because I was not involved in it whatsoever.

It'd be like, if they asked me in 1999 and loyal to Baltimore, what, what happened? I'd be like, I don't know. I have no idea. I literally have no knowledge of this.

I was at all the normal. It would have to be your ex-girlfriend for it to be like, they asked you. It wasn't like he was a random person. Well, fights, let me ask you that. If it wasn't, if Adnan was not the ex-boyfriend, would you believe he did it?

No. He was just a friend. So you're just, I mean, you're just going, so you're, I'm not accusing you either. I'm just getting inside your mind. Is he a random person on the street? Getting inside your mind, your thing is like,

the ex-boyfriend is is a classic case motive is a pretty big yeah motive is a pretty big factor in this for me i'll admit that i i feel like the motive is there and i think that's a pretty reasonable thing well no i mean that's what juries look for is the motive and the means and he's got all no no no listen i i agree that motive is very reasonable and very important i I do. I think that this is just difference of personality, I guess. I don't think that's enough. I don't think being like, well, they broke up is enough motive. I would need to see so many people that are like, he wasn't that mad.

Yeah. Like if I saw he was calling so many other girls and he was like clearly moved on. If there was like red flags about it, I could get it. Like if he looked like the jealous violent ex-boyfriend but there's really nothing else you say that in this last episode they're like 99 of the time there are things that lead up to this there are threats there are right like constant fights like people showing up all the time unannounced being creepy when she writes in her diary that she was so excited that he showed up unannounced her friend was annoyed by that how

many friends how many times have you been annoyed by your girlfriend's friends she wrote all the time she wrote in her diary he showed up with carrot cake or whatever and she was excited about it and she wasn't even bothered by it and that was when they were together i love it i love it all right i mean this could, we could go on and on and on. I mean, this is, this is where you go add non and on and on. Oh,

I nailed it. Um, but obviously, I mean, people are dug in here. It just sounds like you really, you know, if you're,

if you're against that, not, it really comes down to like, you think that the ex boyfriend did it. And if I just don't see, I just still don't see Jay's motive. Like, I still don't see why.'s motive like i don't i still

don't see why a random yeah no no but i but this is where so what about this is where my point of view always comes in is i don't i don't think you can really pin it on jay either i think he's a lot more suspicious than adnan but i don't think you can say he did it i always just default to like i don't need to tell you what other people's motive would have been i just don't think the guy who went down for it had the motive. I don't know. I mean, fights, like, literally, yeah, what would Jay's motive be?

We don't know. What if there's something going on behind the scenes where there was motive? I can't tell you that, but that does not apply to me thinking that Adnan did not do it. I just think every time I've been dumped, I wanted to kill her.

And I can see it happening. The bloody t-shirt in the in the back that didn't have adnan hay or jay's blood on it that just you're not like oh well maybe we should look at that nope boyfriend wait i don't even know what you're talking about yeah i think that's a reddit thing was that ever in on the show i don't think i knew that either i don't know i think that's one of the things i See? Didn't even just introduce random evidence. This violates the rules of discovery.

Who knows if it's even real? Ignorance over everything. Knowing less means convict. Alright, I mean. That's what we're going to go with. Reddit. The same people who tracked down the two Boston Marathon bombers.

Court documents. Fucking kids with a backpack. They know they got it. Trust them. Court documents. I'll show you the picture. Oh, Jesus. Listen, here's the thing. Neither of you are going to be proven right or wrong on Thursday.

I hope that Sarah, as a radio host, entertainer, journalist, whatever you want to call it. I hope she kind of like puts a nice little bow on her investigation of it. I hope she kind of lays out her final thoughts and like her genuine opinions and just kind of wraps it up neatly from her point of view, because that's really all we've gotten. That's really all we can get at this point. There's really not going to be anything else introduced unless I mean, no, there's just no way. I mean, I keep saying to myself, what if maybe she has some ace up her sleeve?

I just don't think it's there. I hope that it's the only thing I think she could if she had it. And I don't think she does is if Stephanie said anything. Right. Yeah. I mean, just if you want to like make an impact with that last episode, you're like, I am going to hold it. That would be so weird, though.

Yeah, because like that could open up so many more questions. And I think that they do want to wrap it up as much as they can wrap it up. Right. But that's literally like the only thing I can even think that could still be out there. Maybe that or the credit card. There was a charge on her credit card. The day of the murder at a gas station. Yeah.

Does it really make sense that they really haven't said also in um the first episode when they say coming up this season on cereal there's this clip where she where there's a woman saying i felt threatened he said you've seen what happened to hey that'll happen to you too we just haven't heard that yet and then there's that clip of that it's just it's just a woman's voice who i don't recognize and then there's that clip of that it's just it's just a woman's voice who i don't recognize and then there's no it's like you only get the you only get a piece of it she's just go like it starts with i felt threatened about adnan hey listen if i i'd be so glad if it was about adnan and i was like okay that is more evidence there's more evidence here right because right now there's none there's no evidence so i i

just hope from a podcast point of view that there is like she says in that one episode i just don't want to be like i don't know if she does that i think she's a dick i hope she has like she better at least stick up for herself i have to be like this is what i at least yeah like some showmanship about it and just kind of like lay it all out there wrap it up and then we can kind of see where how the the appeal unfolds. I don't know if they can ever live up to season two. We'll talk about that in the post. Well, I think they're being pretty smart

with these last few shitty episodes. Lower the bar. They had a bad taste in their mouth. Like, oh, it's good again. The bar has been significantly lowered. Kind of like what Homeway did with season three. We'll just make this really suck, and then season four looks amazing.

This is the best summer. All right. So serialist Lee, episode three in the books and enjoy the finale. And let's hope that Sarah Koenig uses some of that season one money

to fix her dead tooth. Because if you saw her on Colbert, I feel I honestly just got a little choked up. I haven't felt too good all day anyway. But as soon as you brought it up, I was like, Colbert, I feel I honestly just got a little choked up. I haven't felt too good all day anyway. But as soon as you brought it up, I was like, I mean, I feel bad. The woman's not you know, she's not like a model or anything out there.

We really shouldn't be judging her on our looks or anything. But a dead tooth is completely unacceptable in today's society. I know like you can get that shit fixed, babe. You got a big brown George Washington. I don't know if she can. What kind of fucking money is she getting from MailChimp? I think we're overestimating how much money. I think they had to ask for the people to give us.

In a very comparable setting to this with like a fucking net poster on the wall. She's like hassling Trunk Club to give her a couple extra bucks so she can keep the lights on. I hope she skims some money off the top like Adnan did at the mosque, and she skims

some cash on the donations for season two and goes and gets that tooth fixed. Do that before anything else for season two, babe. Yeah, no more press scores. Serialistly 3. Enjoy the finale. We'll catch you next week. Previously on Serial-less-ly. Don't make me out to be the crazy person.

You are the crazy person. I'm the one who believes what, like, the people on the jury believed. I'm the normal one. I don't think there was this big conspiracy. Most people agree with me. You believe what the jury believes. I'm outnumbered in this, but if we're talking real world, most people think I'm not good. Yeah, well, most people are dumb, though.

You haven't learned that? Uh Uh Uh I'm sitting in the crib Dreaming about Lid checks and coops The way Salt Shoop said how to sell records like Snoop. I'm interrupted by

a doorbell. 352. Who the hell is this? I get some quick cops, my shit. Stop the dogs from barking. And then proceed to... From KFC Radio Studios in my basement, it's Serious

Lee. A podcast about a podcast about a podcast about a story told week by week. Alright, welcome to the final edition, the final saga of the podcast about a podcast. Serial Wesley episode four, I think it is.

This is the conclusion. This is it for your boy Fights and BC. One last time to slug it out. We've all listened to the finale. We've all I mean, we've all pretty much had made up our of this case, your thoughts on just the quality of the podcast that was the finale. I thought it was good. I thought that she – obviously there were idiots out there who for some reason expected a big conclusion and a big answer and a big reveal. Those people are idiots. Anybody with a brain who knew that wasn't coming i think was pretty much satisfied with this finale there was enough new information and enough uh enough information from both sides i thought they were very good about for once being impartial

about adnan her producer really laid it out there kind of like this is a bad this is all a bad case for him and uh i thought you summed it up pretty well so fights your thoughts on it just in general uh from an entertainment point of view finale was good now it was better than i expected the whole podcast i'm gonna give like a b b minus maybe i said from from episode one that i wasn't i enjoyed it and found entertaining i wasn't as into it as um a brendan was i think i said to you after last episode where if we weren't still doing the podcast i probably would have stopped listening i like episode nine um would you though would you have been okay with just being like uh i don't really well i knew because i knew there was never

going to be an answer so it wasn't like i have to find out what the final answer is it was like well if she's gonna keep dragging along this I mean, I guess I probably would have given it my 40 minutes a week. But I wasn't – it was almost like son's anarchy towards the end. Where I wasn't watching live. I wasn't setting my alarm clock like you were. I was like getting around to listen on like Saturday afternoon. Right, because I mean in the beginning, you were fired up. I mean that first podcast we did where you said you were screaming to your mom

about it, you were as fired up as anybody else was. But I definitely think that after like the seventh episode, I want to say it started to drag for a lot of people. If I may stoke the fire for a second, you know what it lost its luster for me? When I realized that, I was guilty. That's what...

Your boy BC, thoughts on the finale? Well, Fights lost all interest in it because he doesn't care about any of the facts. So if you don't need any facts or any information to make your decision, then of course, why not just watch? Why not just pick episodes one, four, and nine and say, I know everything because you don't care about it in totality whatsoever. Brendan, they weren't facts those last episodes. It was just nonsense.

The last episodes were not one way or the other. Whether you were Team Adnan, Team Jay, whatever, those last few episodes didn't do anything. I do think you heard the whole story by, I'm not sure exactly, basically by Thanksgiving. Whenever Thanksgiving happened, you knew the majority of everything.

And all that was really left was to clear up a few things like, like what happened in this episode. Like you said, I thought the last episode was actually more entertaining than I thought it was going to be because I didn't think she was going to give us any new information. And the fact that she was like, Oh, I finally talked to Don. I mean, it was interesting. I don't think fights, whether the way you see it or the way I see it, I don't think that that really mattered.

I think, you know, it did give you the whole he didn't page Hay either, but I'm not going to say that that makes or breaks the case. I think that was just interesting to hear that, you know, other people weren't necessarily paging her. But I liked it. I think the whole Don thing was very interesting, not from a case standpoint,

but just from how fucking weird Don is. Yeah, I mean, I said to fights right afterwards, whether you think Adnan did it or not, whether you think he deserves to be in jail or not, whatever your thoughts on this murder are, we all can agree that Don is the biggest fucking loser on the planet Earth. He's a weirdo. He works at Lens Crafters for his mom. He fell in love with like a nerdy asian girl after like 45 seconds claims he like loved her and that she changed his life and she was dead within like 10 days bro come on you know what was the most telling part of that he's because he's like what he was like 26 27 right he was older yeah i don't know exact age do you know brent i thought he was 20 but no because they would they there was one point where she said like he was almost 30 and they were going like a double date with like a kid who was and her the other girl's boyfriend

was younger than them i hope that's not the case because then he is my prime suspect if he is a 30 year old dating a 17 year old he's a creep and he's a murderer i think it was at least mid-20s i think it was and it was the most telling part of the don thing was when she's like call me out of school and he's like no you need to go to school if you're old enough to value education you can't fuck people who aren't that's the law that's they should get rid of like the 18 that story thing it should just be do you see the value of education yes does she know then you can't have some banger yeah i mean i'm thinking like say you were you were out of high school and just out of high school and you but you're dating a senior and she was like call me out and like we'll fuck all day and party and you'd be like yeah let's do that

if you're like no no no you have to go turn in your homework you're probably actually a murderer and it was probably you who killed her and you're probably actually a murderer and it was probably you who killed her and you definitely told me you haven't sex with that girl um the john thing was interesting though uh the fact that he um told you that the first of all the fact that they like fixed her car together and all that jazz was just weird. Like very bizarre ex-boyfriend, new boyfriend dynamic. But the fact that he told you that the prosecutor said was mad at him for just kind of being like, yeah, Adnan was like a good guy. And that he that they wanted him to make Adnan look creepy. I mean, nothing new here that doesn't.

Yeah, I'm not telling you that that means there was all a setup from the prosecution. Of course, we learned that the police and all the lawyers want to make their case and prove their points so the prosecution's saying we're going to try to make this look guy look creepy it's not you know earth-shattering corruption here but it's just another example of how not everything you hear is always what what you should believe and all these things that go on in court can be skewed one way or the other uh but that prosecutor in general after setting him up with the lawyer and that outburst to don he seemed a little shady no sure i i think any lawyer is shady any lawyer will do whatever it takes to win his case. Yeah, I know. And that's why I don't think it's a damning proclamation about them because that is true.

If we're comparing shady lawyers, Adnan's is still shady. Right. I mean the lawyers involved in this case, everyone involved in this case. I keep going back to that. The police, all the lawyers, the judges, everyone acted so weird. He had the worst lawyer. They had like the weirdest, like judges, everyone acted so weird. He had the worst lawyer. They had like the weirdest, like seemingly vicious, corrupt lawyer.

Judges throwing out things that I don't think should have been thrown out. This alibi is deemed rock solid. This one's just like, nah, that's no good. Just all around the whole thing fucking, it was bizarre. Oh, you know what? We kind of skipped past this. This really annoyed me in the beginning caning i i i think i said last episode that i almost feel like i hate adnan so much because i hate caning so much or crony what the fuck her name is and the beginning of this episode when she's like whining this bitchy little whine like i just want to know

what your alibi was he fucking wants to know 10 times more than you do like like oh how am i going to end my podcast with all your alibi i've been sitting in jail for 15 fucking years because i can't get it yeah i want it too i wish we. It was funny him asking, how is this going to end? Perfect. He's like, so do I get out or what? What happens here? Yeah, like, so are you going to come down to the station and get me? Because I would like to know what's happening here.

She, I mean, I don't think she necessarily, I guess you can listen to it the way fights did and sound whiny about it. That's how she was. Like, oh, i just want to know what you were doing i just turned too much funny let me i'm gonna play this uh a little clip of this i posted this on the blog the other day the it was like the super cut of sarah koenig basically like not knowing what the fuck she was talking about all spliced together and you can get a good kick out of it no matter what side of the fence you were on it's pretty funny this is what's weird it's hard for me to explain but i swear it's not my fault i mean how i'm i'm i feel like um

because i i feel like what is it about me that would allow someone to even entertain the possibility that I could do this? No, I'm not so sure. Spoiler here. I'm not even a crime reporter. I'm so confused by this. I don't know what I'm doing. Another and another and another. I can't even keep the different versions straight.

Sorry about that. It gets worse. I only have guesses that I can't responsibly say out loud. We're stumped on this one. You can't prove it, so you have to drop it. A lot of people see it this way. In case you're wondering, the reason this is so important is for two reasons. One, I don't know.

It goes on and on like that for almost two minutes. You know who she is? She's like your buddy who's just constantly telling you how hard his job is. And you're like, I don't fucking care. Like, I don't care how hard. Just everything's this big travesty for you. Listen, you signed up for this. If you don't want to do it, if everything's too hard and too confusing, then fucking stop.

But I'm tired of hearing how difficult all this was to attain. It's like, yo, you really brought this upon yourself. You did not have to open up this case. But I think it's funny that throughout this, obviously that's spliced together to be funny. But at some point she said all those things. Repeatedly it was like I can't probably prove this, guys, but it's interesting to me and I'm going to keep investigating. Yet she still had people who were like, you're not going to give me the answer. There's not going to be – you're not going to figure it out?

Why did I listen to this? You're a moron. People who were like, well, that was a waste of time. That was a waste of 12 episodes. I don't know. I think Deadspin put up a blog that was like, serial sucked and it was a waste of time. And I only read like a sentence of it because I didn't even – it felt like a troll blog to me. They were like, oh, you didn't know that the justice system is corrupt?

You didn't know that sometimes cases aren't black and white and you – blah, blah, blah. It's like of course I did know that. But here was a very interesting, very intriguing, particularly like confusing – Did they really say that bullshit? I fucking hate dead skin. Yeah. It was either – it might have been Grant Land. It was one of those two where I was like, on give me a fucking break oh oh the the court system

is corrupt so we should just never talk about it yeah well of course they're a racist cop so why are we talking about michael brown it's fucking important to get that stuff on the open and it doesn't mean it's not entertaining every crime drama and and murder movie you watch is based upon that it it captivates people for a reason. So the fact that when we finally did it as a real true crime case, the fact that you were like, this was stupid, I can't believe anyone listened to it.

Give me a break. Any thoughts, Brent? No, on that, absolutely. I mean, like every single story you hear is not going to enlighten you to some other concept that you didn't know about. So, I mean, I think that this just spelled it all out. And I think that they were so upfront from the very beginning. I mean, they didn't even need to be upfront.

If you did one Google search, you could find that Adnan was still in jail. Right. And then I guess if you thought that somehow they could time the podcast to coincide with him being gloriously exonerated, like you really overestimated everything. Like you overestimated the way the world works. You didn't overestimate anything. You're just an idiot. You're just a fucking moron. All right, so let's dig into what I deem to be the most interesting part. The most interesting part of this episode was Sarah's producer just laying out everything about Adnan's day that was either evidence, quote unquote evidence, that's pointing towards him being involved or an incredible string of coincidences and bad luck uh we it's all things we had known before but the fact that it was spread

out over like 10 11 12 episodes you kind of forget here and there but when she lays it all out like you know jay said you were gonna the way you were gonna do it was ask for a ride and then you asked her right and when the pings of the cell phones were here and the alibi you know like everything she laid out it was just very like logic would dictate that this guy was somehow involved in this you know it was it was everything my gut was telling me but my gut isn't as articulate as she is and she she really nailed it that's that was it now i i wish i i probably should have done a little more prep for this. I wish I could probably look it up on my last blog about it. I don't think it was as bad as it seemed.

Like it was definitely a string of events, but it wasn't like, again, there was no like smoking gun or hardcore evidence in any of the shit that she said. She laid out prosecution's case. Right. And if you were on that jury in 1999 you said this was good enough if you listened to 12 hours of sarah koenig showing why this was the shadiest like most like filled with holes case ever i would think that like she sarah koenig addressed all these points like she She talked about all of them Throughout the podcast So if you just say

The way she did it was kind of like Just shedding Light on the possibility that this is Incorrect or that this timeline Was not possible Or that someone's flat out lying So you have to Buy her story as well

You have to either say Well as well. You know what I mean? It's like, if you, if you have to either say, well, that's not incriminating. Cause I don't believe it happened that way. You know what I mean? Right. But I just thought it was kind of minimizing everything to just say, well, this is all really bad luck. I mean, like, yes, you want to say that if you believe, if you even give yourself a chance of saying 1% that Adnan is innocent, then yeah, he's really unlucky. You know why? Because he's been in jail for 15 years. If he's innocent, it's all, yes, very, very bad luck. So to say that there was a few things that made him look guilty, but there are many cases where the person who's not guilty can be made to look guilty. I mean, this is not brand new.

But just the fact that he was with them all day. He was hanging out with Jay all day when he says they're not friends. Like you just happen to be with the guy who murdered your girlfriend that day all day and you say you're not even friends? That's weird. That's an unlucky coincidence to be hanging out with the guy who just killed your girlfriend who you say you're not friends, which is why you're not even mad at him because he can't betray you because you're not friends with him. And you never notice anything like, oh, this guy might have killed the girl earlier but murders i mean i don't know i don't know the telltale signs of a murderer so if i'm hanging out with them i'm not just like whoa this guy has murder dripping all over him so i i don't know if you could tell the difference of that and also i think the reason

he's hanging out with them is because people don't necessarily just always kill random people he killed someone he knows so he was hanging out with people who also know the victim i people don't necessarily just always kill random people. He killed someone he knows. So he was hanging out with people who also know the victim. I don't think that that is just like the craziest coincidence. As much as people love to deny that they weren't friends, like they still be together all the time. That's not our words. It's Adnan.

I know. If I were Adnan, I would not call someone my friend if they put me in jail. That would make us not a friend. But he said in that context, he was like, no, I can't. She was like, do you feel betrayed by Jay? And he's like, no, we're not friends. How can I ever be betrayed by him? I just think there's too many other confused facts in this to say that the one thing that is 100% true is whether or not they were friends. I mean, maybe he didn't consider him a great friend, but they certainly spent a lot of time together.

They smoked weed. They borrowed each other's cars. I mean, you lend your phone to someone that's not your friend. I think all the actions show that they were friends. That's the point. You don't. You fucking, because you never lent them a phone. It was all a fucking wound.

You don't think the phone happened? I think the phone happened i think the phone happened but i think it was like it wasn't a go get your girlfriend the president it was like i think he was part of the murder well he knew about it beforehand he helped bury the body okay all right and that's a a different thing entirely but then you're saying that you're you're plotting something with someone who's not your friend you plotted a murder with someone who's not your friend you know who uh who I liked was Josh. We didn't really talk about him.

That's his name, right? Josh was the guy who Jay called to the porn store that night and was all nervous about shit. That was the most – one of the more telling things to me. Like why is he bragging about burying a body? That's not even that cool like if he's doing it to be cool he's gonna say he killed her but he's just telling his random person like yeah i buried the body well i think that would be a convenient way to i think that would be a convenient way to say the police are coming for me i'm gonna confess to being

involved with the burying but not this 17 year old planned this 17-year-old planned out that much? He told Jen. He told Jen. He told Chris. He told Josh. He's told a lot of people that he just buried a body. I mean, I don't think that that holds up under the court of law that he was setting up an alibi,

but he does talk a ton about this crime that he committed to all sorts of random people. This was my problem with J theories. And first of all, before I get into that, we'll introduce the other piece of this episode, which was Robert Lee, Robert Morris Lee. Yes, I like that. Who was just a random Baltimore murderer

who had been released from prison two weeks before Hay was murdered, who eventually, I think a year later after her death, was found to have strangled another Asian girl to death. Now, to me, that was my first kind of argument when I first dove into Serial was like, how can people think there's no other possibility other than Adnan? And like, here you go. Here's a perfect example. This could have just been a random act of violence from a Baltimore murderer rapist who has been known to later have killed another Asian girl. So like, there you go. There's your possibility where you can at least say to yourself, maybe it was somebody else. But then you run into the issue of

why did jay know where the car was i thought that hang on if if jay somehow knew where that car was then it couldn't have just been a random murderer unless again a wild string of coincidences where like he just somehow saw it witnessed it you know why would he have this whole story about helping bury the bodies if it was just a random... Him telling the story. So while it does, in one sense, at least plant the seed in your head of like, well, here is at least a possibility of someone who committed the act.

Just to get your mind thinking that way, because so many people, like your boy fights, it's just like, it was against my boyfriend, he did it. This is at least a possibility where you could say it was someone else, but then Jay comes into play and almost like ruins all that if if jay was for some reason telling this bizarre ridiculous lie that can get him in a ton of trouble but there was dna evidence that this this uh serial killer had been in the car you just be like i don't know why jay right that, that guy's just fucking weird and lying.

I don't think that that happened. I think that there's like a 0.01% chance that it was a serial killer. And I just think it's great that they're actually doing some investigating now and they'll check DNA and it probably won't come up. But like that should have been checked before. I just don't understand.

But I thought that, I thought when they introduced that guy, that like revealed Koenig's bias because she was like, does it make more sense that Adnan killed his ex-girlfriend or that the serial killer who got out 13 days before did? Hmm. Well, it makes a lot more sense that Adnan did. Not only that, I think – It's possible, but it makes a lot more sense that Adnan did. I think it revealed the Innocence Project chick's bias when she, when Sarah was like, well, then what about Jay?

And her response was just big picture, Sarah. What the fuck does that mean? No. But that's that girl's job. Like that's literally her job is just to check things like that. Like she doesn't, she doesn't dig through all these things. She was the one in the earlier episodes being like, I've learned in my profession that most people are, are innocent and that usually they're not bad. And it's like, I remember thinking to myself, really?

Because I tend to think people in general are bad. But I think she only deals in cases where it's not, you know, very, very obvious. Like she waits and she only takes cases where they're like, well, there was no DNA evidence. We're going to try and get the DNA evidence. I think like she doesn't have a job if she just is like always pessimistic. So she says – so that's what she adopts and I bet she takes plenty of cases where she just doesn't buy anything. And she's like, yeah, that guy is probably guilty and she just doesn't publicize that. I mean I just think though that the idea of like, well, then how did Jay – why was Jay involved and how would he know where the car was?

That's a pretty like – that's a death blow to that argument but again like if it could just be if you had dna evidence i don't know why he made up that lie but you wouldn't even ask the question you'd be like maybe he was trying to claim reward money again i don't think that is the case here but it's just like she's just trying to get a definitive answer if that definitive answer is available she will track it down and you know it'll probably be inconclusive and inconclusive will look more like adnan did it or more like whoever was involved right right i think the ultimate sign of koenig and her crew's bias is spending a preposterous amount of time into investigating a potential butt dial. There was no fucking butt dial people that did not happen because that doesn't happen in real life. That just doesn't

happen. It's just, you, if you tried to use that argument, if your phone, if your girlfriend looked at your phone log and saw that you called your ex-girlfriend for two and a half minutes in the middle of the night and you said it was a butt dial she would punch you in your fucking face well now with iphones and the touch screens don't you dare don't you do do not defend this i don't i don't i mean those with those push button phones i mean butt dial is a term for a reason you think butt dials there's no such thing as butt dials those are complete fiction i think it would be outrageously coincidental to have this butt dial to only to do a girl that only he knew when the other guy was supposed to have the phone for two full minutes i don't think and then she didn't have voicemail set up i think that all is a complete load of bullshit but that

but the other side of that story completely contradicts everything. Like, Jay's story is like, I didn't leave my house till 3.40. This call happens at 3.30, and it's someone that only Adnan could call. His whole story the whole time is I'm not with Adnan at the time of this call. And then the prosecution's story is they were together.

Well, that, I think those are two entirely different issues. I think that the timeline, we've said this a million times, the timeline and the pinging and all that, none of it matches up. It's all approximated. It's all like, well, this was the closest phone call to the witness that we have talking. So let's just assume it's that the cell phone tower is all inexact. I think that's all a different argument in a sense i think trying to prove that that was a butt dial is a serious serious stretch and and and i mean they even say it and but they're like but we're just putting it out there that like there is a possible explanation for it like yeah i guess that's a fucking possible i mean if i if my theory was that jay just called her he saw a

chicken in uh addnan's phone. He was like, I think this chick may be hot. Let me flirt with her and call her. That would be more believable? Yes. I think that's absolutely believable. I don't know what to say. It's possible.

That could have happened too. Right. And I mean, if your point is to try to like plant a little seed of reasonable doubt, I get that. But none of that either way is like a home run or a fucking win for Adnice. Right, but you're trying to disprove a point that doesn't need to be disproven. Like the story that the prosecution constructed says that this call doesn't matter. And somehow the jury was just like, yeah, but go to jail for life. I mean, I think that's why – because it's only because this was a point of Dana's.

This was part of Dana's this looks bad for you. It looks bad for you if there is anything else that supports the fact that Adnan had the phone at that time. And there is nothing. So if you want to say that literally the whole timeline is off, that means you haven't proven a single thing. That means you have not made a case against Adnan if you're just willing to be like, the timeline is completely wrong. And don't you think that's what they should have done like don't you think that's what yes oh yes you know like rather than sit around I mean I guess absolutely Sarah was doing this not necessarily the you know and it wasn't the defense in the case but like we're talking about butt dials

talk about butt dials when it should have been like how about you say the phone call happened then when it fucking did it like right and that's why I just don't understand why people can be like, are you kidding me? You don't think – you think there's a chance that Adnan didn't do it? And it's like, well, all of the evidence is a giant lie. So I don't really understand how you can be like, no, no, no, I definitely think he did it, even though no fact – no truth was presented. You know what it is? And I'll answer for fights. Gut.

Gut. It's gut. Gut. Yes, just guess and send people to jail. Andy Dufresne. Andy Dufresne, keep him in jail. That guy from My Cousin Vinny, keep him in jail. All these guys should just know.

There's never a situation where a person looks guilty and there isn't. And they aren't. You know what they did this episode, though? They brought up a point that I brought up like last week two weeks ago which is you know everyone's saying oh he didn't care he was over it blah blah blah and they're like what if meeting don was the stressor and i said stressor because i remember saying it was a criminal minds term that was the stressor that's what put him over the edge he's like i gotta kill this bitch that's what it was and then he was like you went into new new new adnan killer mode but this and i like a point that gets lost in the super producer bc versus fights debate here is that i do not say there is no chance that adnan did it I say that there is a possibility that they did it together

and there's a possibility that Jay did it entirely on his own. But there's chances to things. Like there are possibilities and there are lots of facts that support both sides. But because one story was told in 1999, everyone goes,

well, that's probably the story that's true. That's not. That's not probably the story that was true just because it is the story that was told. We almost need to come in with a, you almost needed to listen to this podcast without it being a true story or without knowing that he was currently in jail. Like if she just said – if she didn't say episode one, there's this kid who's been in jail since 1999. If she just said, I'm going to talk about this case, I think a lot, a lot more people, if you had no prior knowledge knowledge would have believed Adnan was at least

should not be in jail. One thing I do have to say though is that and I don't, this isn't confirmed either, but a lot of people especially on Reddit are like, you need to understand that what's been CSI'd into your brain is that every case is based on hardcore evidence.

They're like, sometimes it's based on hardcore evidence right you're like sometimes it's based on people saying things so i'll give you that fights i am absolutely like conceding that point that it's not like he's dancing this is an audio podcast but he was just doing a little shimony dance um but like it's not out of control i mean we can still say i don't think this is enough to convict, but it's not unheard of for like essentially what would be considered the snitch to just be like, I'm snitching on this guy. He did it. And people be like, yeah, okay.

We believe him. So that's not, I'll completely concede that point. It's not, it's not crazy. I just think that there's, when the snitch is lying his ass. I have no problem with admitting that as long as like the other side could be like, yeah, I mean, there's entirely a possibility that that snitch was lying and that he's in jail wrongfully. But they won't do that.

Now, hang on, let me speak. If we're dropping, if we're completely dropping, Brandon and I, if we're dropping our Stephen A versus Skip Fasano. This is how I lure him in. If we were in a jury room,

I'm voting guilty. I'm saying guilty. But if Brendan says, if Brendan says Jay did it, I'll throw a book at him. But if he says there's not enough evidence, I'm not going to jump over and strangle you. I'll say, okay, I understand your argument

that there's not enough evidence. I'm saying guilty, but I'm not going to freak out if you say there's not enough evidence. But'm saying guilty, but I'm not going to freak out if you say there's not enough evidence. But you understand that you're only supposed to really vote guilty if you think there's enough evidence. But at the same time – I think there's enough evidence, but I just understand someone saying there is. But at the same time, Kev, like the discussions we're having and the whole point that I think that makes this entertaining is like it's not not that entertaining. If you just say, there's not enough evidence, this should be a mistrial or a not guilty, but, but like what

everybody enjoys doing is debating what they think happened, you know? And it's like, if you, if you're just like, uh, you know, cause I'm not trying to get a guy who actually is guilty out of jail and like have him just like walk around the street. So you do want to be like, what's going on, what actually happened here. It's not interesting. If you don't, you just go at, should it shouldn't have been not guilty because I don't think that you can overturn anything.

Yeah. Right now. I mean, I mean, I think you could get, I don't know what is actually possible, but I think you can certainly get that inadequate can counsel, but I don't know what that gets you.

Yeah. A pill head fucking criminal lawyer is probably inadequate so yeah i'll give you that one but i don't know if that like that can't like get you out of jail you know right i don't think i mean it's like i think that they just hold to those he's gonna rot forever there's not gonna be any dna evidence there's not and whatever sort of appeal you can win on just being like well i wanted to take a plea deal and they they're going to be like, well, too bad. You asked for that plea deal because you're guilty of sin. I just – but in fact, the phone is the only evidence.

Jay has the phone. He's in guilty places. He's lying about where he is. I mean, you know, like at the time of the murder, the phone indicates that he's near Best Buy and he's saying he's at Jen's. And you're just like, that's not suspicious enough for me. Like that is just like I absolutely would say at least 50-50 he was doing these things that he's saying that Adnan was doing. If I walked out of my door right now, didn't have a phone, didn't have anything. And then tomorrow you asked me to say

what time do you leave the apartment i'd say 2 30 i just look at the clock it's five o'clock i'm not good at times and i just assume like oh like i didn't i'm i'm 20 minutes off where i was 40 minutes off where i was the story is pretty sequential it makes solid sense aside for like little fucking tweaks i i'm not holding you. If you say you left that place at 2.45, I'm not being like, oh, it's 3.20. He was still there. That 40 minutes doesn't bother me. It's not a huge deal to me.

But it doesn't bother you that he sticks with that and he insists on that? I agree that it shouldn't be a big deal, except that that was what the whole case narrowed down to. They were like, all right, it's this 21-minute window. If we're going to be given leeway on either side of 40 minutes of an hour, I don't think you can say that there's like – that story is true enough or solid enough to be really convinced. Again, if you want to say it's not true enough, that's fine. But I think most of it in sequential order makes sense it's just like the the producer said like adnan is unlucky as a like the most unlucky day ever

if none of that's true it just doesn't make sense it doesn't make sense it makes sense if you're trying to pin a murder on someone else because you committed it now here's the thing it doesn't i said this several times like the whole setting up an alibi doesn't make sense there does need to be some level of jay being like i'm i'm a framing mastermind setting up my alibi here like i i'm so confident in my ability is to pin this on this guy that i'm gonna like admit to everyone that i buried the body and all that shit you know what i mean like you got to know what you're doing or be really confident to say you were involved in the last 1% of it. Wait, wait. So the police come knocking on your door and they were like, we thought Adnan did this.

But then we find out that you had his phone and you're calling all these people. What's going on here? Were you involved? Right. And now it's not a mastermind. It's just you just say you're scrambling. No, the guy you thought he's the one who did it. You were right. You were right. And they go, well, how are we right? Oh, no, I know you're right. This is what I know know and like all of a sudden there's a story it's not like he picked a random person and he was he got lucky that that person happened to not have an alibi he picked the person he knew the most about who the police who was the number one prime suspect right i don't think it's like a work of genius i think it's just him saying come to him first and he

with no i with no thought that adnan did it and then made up this story about the ex-boyfriend, I would think that that's too far-fetched. But I guess you're right. If they told him already, we think it was Adnan, he's just going to roll with that. Yeah, and what if all these calls were from Jay's cell phone? There's no reason that these calls couldn't be from Jay's cell phone and Adnan still have done this. And he could still say Adnan did have done this and Adnan and he could still say Adnan did it like what changes there nothing that doesn't change anything these calls were made to his friends to to the people that he knows in an effort to cover this up like that is a

fact he called people to cover up a crime that he was involved in and then he just pinned it on Adnan it didn't have to be Adnan's phone. That just helps it. It just helps his story. It doesn't help the actual case. Right, but there's still, why is he killing this girl? He doesn't really know.

But there's- That's like the motive is a huge thing. No, motive is not a huge thing. Motive is a huge thing in proving a case. Motive is not necessary for a murder to occur. There was no motive in any of the things we, in any of the real life violence that we just saw now. Like you get in fights, people argue, things can happen. It's not outside of the realm of possibility.

I mean, he knows. I just don't want to kill his brain. They went to the same school. They went to the same school. It's not like they don't know anything about each other. He smokes weed with the girl who, who, um, who he smokes weed with the guy who dates her. Like, it's not like they're, they're complete strangers on the street.

What if she's, if he's a neighborhood drug dealer and she wants to buy weed, everybody likes to think that, Hey, is this perfect little innocent child yet? She's like dating behind her back. She's having sex. She's, you know, talking about running away. She's trying to play. She's trying to get someone to call her school to get her out. Maybe she's just buying weed and something goes wrong.

Oh, that makes a bad person. Come on. What? She's trying to skip school? No, I'm not saying it. I'm sectioning to bringing that up. No, I'm saying that there's a chance she was buying weed from the local weed dealer. But, I mean, let me—

A drug dealer's never gone bad? If weed dealers kill people, then ex-boyfriends kill people. If we're going to get how far fetched an ex-boyfriend killing is, how rare that is, it's way more rare that your weed dealer kills you. I'm just saying that people who know each other can kill each other. It doesn't matter that they're not as close as the ex-boyfriend because then the ex-boyfriend would literally be guilty every single time. No woman could be murdered without it being her husband. Like murders happen by other people other people do things and then there was the whole accusations that maybe but and she knows him she was going there was there's court documents that say that she was going to confront him about cheating on stephanie if she confronts him like i

know my roommate's girlfriend like she's in passing hey what's up that's it and so i'm not gonna kill that kill that girl. If that girl comes to you and goes, I'm going to ruin your relationship. I'm going to out you. I'm going to out that you're gay. I'm going to out that this. I'm going to out that that.

That stuff can't happen. That's impossible to happen. And I mean, it's just something with a lot of men. I don't think like, oh, she's outing him for a gay relationship. That's not like an argument I'm going to entertain. I'm just saying,

there's many things that could have happened entertain. I'm just saying there's many things that could have happened. You're just saying that somebody was angry enough because they broke up that murder could happen. I could just be like, I'm not going to entertain that. That's the thing that happens in real life. You're just introducing stuff like,

well, what if he was a government spy and she was a sleeper cell? Yeah, I guess that's a rare possibility. I'm saying that anything could have happened because it doesn't take you have to be dating someone to murder someone. Anything could have happened. He could have tried to rob her. And they could have, like, why is, like, literally every other reason that murders have occurred is thrown out the window? Like, that's just like Max Boyfriend.

Yeah. I mean, I get that, you know, you do have to start to concoct some stories in your head. But that's just to only prove that there are other scenarios that kind of can outweigh, well, there was this guy who once dated her and they broke up. With no signs of other, like, violence or struggle or hate or anything. We've concocted that story, that he was so jealous. Even though lots of people would say that he wasn't. Don't forget the stressor. Stress is important here. cocked at that story that he was so jealous even though lots of people would say that he wasn't again i'm saying that that that certainly could have happened but when you have the one guy and

he's the only guy you've investigated and you take the one other guy who would be suspect 1a and you just believe every word he says you don't end up with a lot of evidence to support the Jay theory. Like if the theory that Hay was about to confront him about cheating on Stephanie had been investigated at all, we may have something to support it. But we don't because they just were like, no, no, no, we're just going to go with the ex-boyfriend. I mean, I think that's it right there. I think that we can end it there because I think that's – BC has laid his on the line.

Fights has laid his on the line. And that's it. I mean, those are – you're either team Fights or team BC the same way you're team Adnan or team Jay, and you ain't changing. You're really not. You see what I put on Twitter about how he's just lying about everywhere he is? He's calling all these extra guys who don't. And I looked at that and I was like,

nah, I'm not going to look at this. I didn't even know what you were talking about. That's the thing. Like there's that one thing that's been floating around Twitter that's like, here is a fucking like 10,000 words on why Jay did it.

And I'm just like, well, I'm not going to read all that. I've dedicated podcasts and blogs and time to listening and talking about this podcast. And I'm just like, I'm not going to read 10,000 words on this. Get the fuck out of here. They just show that he was not where he says he was. I guess that doesn't matter.

You're allowed to just lie about where you were. He said it shows that he was where. You're allowed to be confused, Brendan. It shows. Well, you're allowed to be confused. Maybe I was murdering someone. I can't remember. Adnan has no idea

where he was at any time. At least he's like, well, I think I was over here. That is entirely false. He says he was at track, and then he says he was at the mosque. Those are the two times where it matters. Yes, well, I guess people testifying that he was at the mosque doesn't matter. That doesn't matter.

They said they might have seen him in a dark corner. That sounds like some bullshit to me. Because two people. His father is one. Get over there. His father is one, and another guy testifies that he's there. I guess we just throw that out. That's just we're not going to consider that I saw two people there.

Two people saw him there. And then, like, you don't – the burden is not on him to prove he was at track. People say, I don't remember him not being there. That doesn't mean he wasn't there. That's, like, literally a logical fallacy. It's like you're like, if you can't prove it, then it didn't happen. He should blame his guy, his track coach, is what he should. If he's actually in the team, that would be so bullshit.

Track coach, remember me one time, bro. Remember my face one time. God. Track doesn't take attendance, if i if i'm a high school kid right now track is such a bullshit sport every time i play basketball you would be you wouldn't have this basketball dude that's a good point if you played a real sport they would have been like shit like we were missing our point guard we need like let's bring this guy off the bench like they would have known yeah track is what everybody joins that's what the

stoners join they're like oh we want to get out of gym class. Let's join track. So you know what? Maybe you're guilty. It's guilty. You should have played basketball, Adnan. All right. I think we can end it there. I think our podcast might have been better than cereal.

I told you. I gave cereal a B-. I gave us like an A-. If MailChimp came to us, I feel like they would have gotten their money's worth so uh let's let's hope there's another we did it with true detective and uh obviously with cereal let's hope there's another show or movie or i don't know fucking podcast maybe even a book maybe we'll read books or something all right let's not get let's not get crazy but let's hope there's something else for this trio can get together and yell at each other again. So that's it. Serialist Lee, episode four, the finale.

Thank you, Sarah. Thank you, Brent. Fuck you, Sarah. You suck. Three at none. Three at none.