Khloé in Wonder Land - Escaping the Children of God Cult ft. Daniella Mestyanek Young

Episode Date: April 22, 2026

Khloé sits down with Daniella Mestyanek Young, a cult survivor who was born and raised in the infamous Children of God. Daniella shares what it was like growing up in a highly controlled environment, how she realized something wasn’t right at a young age, and the moment she risked everything to leave at 15. From culture shock and rebuilding her identity to navigating relationships, trauma, and ultimately finding healing, this is a powerful conversation about resilience, survival, and what it really takes to start over. Episode Sponsors:Use my code for 10% off your next SeatGeek order: https://seatgeek.onelink.me/RrnK/KHLOE10 Sponsored by SeatGeek. Restrictions apply. Max $20 discountShop at https://www.REVOLVE.com/KHLOE and use code KHLOE for 15% off your first order. #REVOLVEpartnerTo learn more and get 20% off your order, visit http://ActiveSkinRepair.com and use code: KHLOE. You can also find Active Skin Repair on Amazon and at your local CVS.You can find Barilla Al Bronzo pasta in the red bag at select retailers nationwide. Click here to find a store near you: https://click2cart.com/153800gvSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

When did you start realizing this isn't normal? We were trafficked in front of the whole world. Let's talk about cults. I'm always knitting. Just go with it. I'm watching the news and it's saying, Children of God cult. Children of God cult.

And I was like, oh. You know, performance is really brilliant for trafficking children. You don't think, are they getting paid? Are they being abused? Oh, you're going to go to hell if you don't grow up and stay in the family. Okay, hell's going to suck. Love bombing is how you get drawn into a cult. I've been in a one-on-one cults then.

If you're hearing a story of the girl who grew up in one of the worst cult and you're relating, that's a cult. So when I was a lieutenant, the battle captain in charge had me at a Kardashian update brief. You've got to be kidding. To the end of every intelligence brief. Oh, my God, like, okay, military, who knew?

Okay, so girl, I feel like we have so much to talk about. I definitely had my mouth on the floor. I was on like just a bunch of different emotions doing my research about you. And it's really inspiring that you're standing and positive and here today and that you're so willing and open to be on my podcast with me and to talk about your journey. So thank you for being here. Oh my gosh. Thank you so much for having me. I would love if you can talk a little bit about your childhood and how you were raised. I want to sort of set the stage for the listeners and viewers out there. So I was born third generation into the children of God. So my grandfather joined this

cult in the 70s. And the children of God is one of these cults that came out of the late 60s, early 70s, had a lot to do with blowback from the civil rights movement. We just had a lot of cults popping up at that time. So my grandfather joined in the 70s. My mom was one of the first children born in. And by the time she's 14, she is pregnant by my grandfather's boss, who's the senior finance guy. My father is older than my grandfather. So then I was born in the Philippines because this cult went international in pretty much after Manson. And stuff started getting a bad name. And so he got a revelation from God to go spread love around the world.

Got it. When I was growing up in the 80s and 90s, we were 10,000 people living in communes all around the world. 10,000 people is so many people. Okay. And David Berg actually was just kind of a better cult leader than other cult leaders. So what he did was he showed up and he collected a bunch of other cults into his cult. Wow. And so built a giant cult very fast.

And the Children of God was always good at performing. So they used music as a tool. You know, you throw a music festival in Huntington Beach, get a bunch of interesting people. People don't realize they're being brainwashed when they're at a music festival, right? They believe they're having a religious experience. And you know, it's so many young people that were just so passionate about this. And they did a really good job passing us off as just this, right? A missionary group with all these young, cute children who love Jesus and sing and perform.

So sort of, you know, Von Trapp family singers, but for Jesus. Yes. And so I was born in the Philippines, lived in Japan, Peru, and then a decade in Brazil. Oh, wow. Most of what I remember is growing up in Brazil and then Mexico as a child. And we were completely cut off from the world in that, you know, we had no music from the outside world. We had barely any movies. We had no books. The only things we were allowed to read was the King James Bible and the stuff that our leader wrote. And that was just our life. You know, the kids. So no school, nothing like that. We were technically homeschooled. Okay. But like the belief was that Jesus is coming back every any day. So why do we need to waste our time with school? Got it. So I would say, you know, they focused a lot on teaching us to read and speak and perform in public.

because, you know, performance is really brilliant for trafficking children. Because when you see these shiny, smiley, dancing children, you don't think, you know, are they getting paid? Are they being abused? Right. Are they happy to be there? Right. And of course, you know, unfortunately, the Children of God is the cult that is famous for sexual abuse. You know, he started in the 70s using the women who joined the cult as religious prostitutes and called them. flirty fishing. And it was, you know, a very culty thing to do was take this verse from the Bible where he says, I will make you fishers of men. And he said, right, ha, go out and fish men. And then it got, you know, kind of heated up for the children of God in the 80s in Time

magazine as a sex cult with this like, I call it a harem photo, you know, old dude, 13 scantily clad women, and that name became very synonymous with bad stuff and cults. So they rebranded, and they did a pretty good job. They called themselves the Family International, and by the 90s, they were performing twice in the White House. No, they were not. Okay, that's a crazy rebrand. Yeah, and so they just sort of switched from prostitution to performance, you know,

entertainment. Right. And so, you know, it's interesting when I watched the Quiet on set documentary about kids growing up in Hollywood. I was like, oh, we were just the poorest, most abused end of this. Oof, that's really, really sad. And the weird thing about the children of God for being such a obvious cult was it wasn't like with the polygamous Mormons where we were shut away and never saw the world. We were trafficked in front of the whole world. And you guys were doing a lot of street performances and that kind of thing. And this is what Joaquin and River Phoenix and Rose McGowan were sort of a part of growing up, which is street performing. Crazy. From what I've here know about cults and I don't know if it's accurate, you are cut off from the outside world.

Like how do you manage 10,000 people from not going to say something? So I think what people misunderstand about brainwashing the most, is all brainwashing is is getting you to not question, right? It's getting you to just not go there. And so isolation doesn't have to be completely unacommune, never seeing the world. Right. You know, and actually I think the Mormons taught us a lot about this, where like you can appear to be participating in the world, but you're like insulated from it. And as a child, do you remember if you enjoyed the those moments, like performing and being out of the commune? I really did. And I, you know, I always say, like, the only thing that's more theater kids than theater kids is evangelical performing kids.

And I think that it's because we were so controlled all of the time. You know, what I say about life growing up in the children of God, everyone focuses on the sexual abuse and the belief in pedophilia. But what I say, like, was the worst abuse was just, no spontaneous moments of joy. You know, we were essentially soldiers growing up in the army of God. But I was a very good performer. And so when I got on the stage, I could be larger than life and loud and dance and those kinds of things. So I really enjoyed it. And I feel very lucky that I got to grow up in Latin America. Like if I had to be born in one of the world's worst cults, I'm, glad I got to grow up in Brazil and get all of that beautiful culture from it and not just like Ohio or Utah. That is a beautiful perspective. So when did you realize that, okay, this either one

isn't normal? I don't know if you had the wherewithal to know this is an exact cult, but like when did you start realizing, okay, this isn't normal? Very, very young. You know, I remember being six years old. Oh, wow. And I spent a lot of time in, like, isolation is not even the correct word, like solitary confinement, just for being a bad kid, which is to say a kid. And so in almost all cults, you will start to see like iron-fisted control of children because they have to. And I always say, like, one of, to me, one of the warning signs of kids is when you see like all the kids in a row like that. And they're just perfectly behaved. Right.

Yeah. You see that in the FBI's investigation of Waco. The kids, you know, and they're like, these kids are so well behaved, three and four-year-olds that sit for four hours in the middle of the night. That's not normal. That's not normal. No. That comes from abuse and fear. That's horrible.

Do you wonder, or maybe your mom did, do you wonder why your mom didn't have the same questioning? I mean, I wondered that a lot as a teenager, but. I just think that she grew up in that exact same environment, you know, and I say about my mom, like she tried to teach us the lessons she learned in a little bit of a kinder way, you know, and a little bit more protective. And, you know, the Children of God was extremely about corporal punishment. But she never let us older kids discipline the younger kids, for example, you know. So she like saved me from that specific kind of trauma. Right.

But also she was just such a true believer, you know. So once I started telling my story was when she found out that one of my main abusers, who was a very famous person, was also someone who had abused her as a child. But because the rules had changed and the rebrand had happened and we didn't do that stuff anymore, she just never questioned it. She never questioned whether her own children were at risk. No way. Because even though it's just a rebrand, I didn't know that inside the cults that was believable,

but I would think that people within would be like, what a crock? I mean, you would think, but this is, I think this is the problem for me when cults rebrand. And this very specific type of rebrand, which we also see with the Mormons and their belief in polygamy, which was, we can't do it because of the outside world. Right. So it wasn't the prophet was wrong. So the prophet very specifically was like when girls get their periods, which as we were talking about is younger and younger all the time, like that's when God intends for them to be sexually active and to start having babies. That's crazy.

And they quickly realized actually when I was born that, well, if you have a bunch of 14, 15 year old, 13 year old girls running around with babies, It's like that's proof of abuse. So we got to be more careful. So they made the rule 16, right? But what you did back then, you know, and my mom specifically was given this. Like when you got pregnant from an older man, that wasn't wrong because that was allowed back then. That is so, so sad and so hard. This is where your mom was growing up.

This was her whole existence in life. I don't even understand how some will. would feel from like as a mother on the inside that war within themselves that has to be really, really hard. And you know, ultimately, I think she had that war going on in her much more than even she realized, you know, I think she was trying to be a true believer her whole life. But when I at 15, you know, so I was always a problem kid, right, within the cults, which is just to say again, outgoing, kind of noisy. creative, a normal, rambunctious child with ADHD.

Yeah. And so I was always in trouble, always in trouble. I mean, one of the reasons I think I'm always knitting is because I just have so much terror of being alone with nothing to do because that was, you know, they used solitary confinement a lot as a punishment. And you started knitting at a really young age. Yeah, she taught me how to knit when I was five. And that is like your soothing mechanism?

It is my. Yes. It's absolutely my stim. It keeps me calm. I've knit through my entire life through two times to war. No, it's quite fascinating to see you haven't looked down one time. It's amazing. You guys know how much I love the art of gift giving. I always still love sending a candle or a beautiful bouquet. Those gifts are classics for a reason. But lately, I've been way more into giving experiences over things. Something the person is actually. going to remember forever. A concert, a game, a show, something really, really special. Which is why I want to give a huge shout out to the sponsor of today's episode, Seat Geek. With over 35 million downloads, Seat Geek is the number one rated ticketing app. And honestly, it's become my go-to for exactly this. Concert season has officially started. To make it even better,

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You can shop my favorites and get 15% off your first order with code Chloe. Fast shipping, easy returns. It just works. That's revolve.com slash Chloe to shop my faves and get 15% off your first order. Offer ends May 6th. Don't miss out. You asked me when I knew we were different. And like, I always knew that. And like at the age of six, I was like, oh, you're going to go to hell if you don't grow up and stay in the family. Okay, hell's going to suck. It was kind of my attitude. Like, I just think I was a little neurodivergent atheist born to religious extremists. So I was always trying to get out. My problem was my grandparents were in the cult. You know, like, I was third generation. So I had no one to go to. So I was like, well, I'm going to have to be 18. But by the time I was 15, I had gotten pretty desperate.

It was bad. The abuse was bad. I was living with very abusive men again and being just straight trafficked. Like, trafficked as a carnival clown through Mexico and lower Texas. And I was just done. And I really didn't want to turn 16 in the group because that's when you were expected to have sex with whoever wanted. Because this was still, they call it free love. I called it forced polyammer.

I think you were supposed to have sex with whoever wanted it as a sign of God's love. And they didn't believe in birth control because, you know, the best way for cults to get new members is to birth their own. You know, so watching my mom who had seven kids in 14 years, seventh child born when she was 30. And I was like, I can't do this. So I ended up basically getting myself excommunicated, just very dramatically, climbing over the commune wall to go. you know, fellowship with an outsider. Yes. Go see a boy. Okay. And then I got caught. So did you get caught intentionally? No.

I just fell asleep and didn't wake up in time to sneak back in. Okay. I say no like that because I was like I was sneaking out every single night. So it was bound to happen. Right. And I wanted, like I wanted to get caught. I wanted my parents to be so mad at me that I could just yell at them, I want to leave the family.

Because that's the thing that's hard to explain. which is like, yeah, I wanted nothing to do with that life. But it's really hard to tell your whole family, you don't care if you ever see them again and if you don't go to heaven with them. Yeah. Just because you want your own life. And, you know, it's so funny too because I wanted to leave the children of God so I could go to high school. That was my, I was like. Yeah, because at this point you had no proper schooling you had homeschool, but it's done for whatever they want you to learn. Yeah. So I was facing excommunication. And the thing about cults is there's no sin that is worse than the sin of leaving. So they will always accept you back in as long as you're willing to

like humble yourself and let them break you and then like recommit. And so I was wavering because as much as I wanted to leave, I was 15, and I didn't know a thing about the outside world. Where are you going? It was also scary. Right. And so I was like going back and forth. Meanwhile, my mom had been, when she was 20, she'd been married off in her third arranged marriage to a man who was 20 years older than her. Sorry if this is inappropriate, but does that mean, did she have three husbands at one time? No. When she was 13, she was symbolically married, two, the 75-year-old prophet in this really crazy marriage ceremony where he had 14 girls ranging from three to 14. Stop. One of them was his granddaughter. One of them was his daughter. Oh,

I mean, this is why the children of God gets known as one of the most extreme cults. Then, in order to hide who my father was, they married her off when she was 16 to an 18-year-old boy. that lasted about two years as teen marriages do. Right. And then by the time she was 20, they married her off to a senior leader who, and my dad was one of the big, like, musicians and performers that wrote music for the whole group. Wow. Anyway, so he had seven older children. And so my mom and dad had arranged for me to go live with one of my steps siblings, who I did not know, by the way.

But they were still in the cult. No, they were out of the cult. Got it. Because I was being thrown out. Got it. So it was either my parents were going to have to leave the cult since I was so young unless they could find a place for me. So I'm wavering back and forth. And my mom, like, takes me on a walk outside the commune where nobody can hear us.

And this is a rare thing. Yeah. And she just looks at me. She's like, just go. She's like, go. You're not happy here. We have a place for you. Just go.

And, you know, she's out of the cult now. We have a great relationship. And she had told me, she was like, yeah, you were just, you were so miserable all the time. I just could not keep seeing you like that. But did she let you go where you didn't have to stay with your step siblings? No, I went to go. Okay. So they brought me from, we were in Guadalajara, Mexico at the time, and they brought me to Houston, Texas, and dropped me off. And the high school was four. thousand students. Oh my gosh. So I show up. I show up to enroll. I have a social security card and a passport. And that's it, right? Never been in school a day in my life. But this culture shock for you. Now your parents aren't with you. You are taken out of regardless of how fucked up it was.

It's still everything you know. Like the only world you knew. And at 15 years old, now you're taken with your step sibling. that you didn't really know, you said, right? Right. And you're now going into this high school with 4,000 people, like, and also culture shock. Yes. Because I've never lived in America before, right? So it was like, so on my first day of high school, you know, I have been telling myself, like, oh, I'm different. I'm shocked because I grew up in Brazil, right?

I grew up in Mexico. And then on my first day, I'm like standing in the hallway and I'm hearing these two teenagers have just like a debate. I think they were talking about evolution versus whatever. And I remember being like, oh, I don't even know how to think like that. My conclusion was, oh, I'm not from another country. I'm from another planet. Yeah. Did you have to worry about money in some regard?

Yes. But you didn't have to worry about like paying for the roof over your head or anything like that. So he didn't have to pay for the roof over my head. I still had to find a job. Yeah. And what do you do? You know, the thing about the children of God is like the children were the workers, the children were the earners. Cults are always about labor. So there was never a moment in my life that I felt like I could just rely on my sister. Like, she's not my parent. I don't want to cost her any money, any trouble.

My problem was I was not even 16. In most places in America, you have to be 16 to have a job. I ended up getting hired at Chick-fil-A. And it was funny because I got hired to be the sample girl in the mall. And my boss would always come out and be like, you need to smile. We hired you because of your smile. And I was like, this is the same. Yeah. The same thing I used to do in the comp. Oh, yeah. I guess. Right. But to me, the hard part was trying to fit in in high school. Like work, work I have always been used to. Like, that wasn't hard. You know, I wanted to go to school so bad. So I loved school. How did you even, because you just love school, so then you were like, I need to go to college too. But I also, you know, looking back now, I realize like two things. This one, like when you're growing up in a cult, you have to be perfect all the time. What you learn is you have to be perfect all of the time. And so I had to get straight A's, had to. I was a valedictorian of my arts and humanities program, graduating college. I was working one to four jobs. And I was. And I was. look back now and I was like, oh, I just put myself in another high control program so that I didn't have to think about my trauma so that I didn't have to deal with any of that. When I was sitting here, I was going to say, it sounds like you're filling up your time with so much stuff so you don't have to think about the horrific childhood that you had. Years later, I was reading a book called

Third Culture Kids and it talked about how for kids that feel out of place, good grades can be a sign of depression. And I never related to anything that hard. Wow. I was like, yeah. Like school doesn't fail me. And like, I can't get kids my age to like me or not think I'm weird, but I can get my teachers to love me if I'm their best student. Did you have friends growing up in high school? Not in high school at all. In college, so college is very interesting. Another isolating moment for you. Yeah, that's so sad. And in college, I, I, So one of the things I think is that I didn't know who I was supposed to be, right? So the only thing I could figure out to do was like, well, I got to try to just pass as a little white, you know, ex-evangelical girl from Texas.

You know, I look back now and one of the things I tell my audience of cult survivors is like, if you grew up being held separate from the world, like, you didn't grow up in that. culture and you're not going to pass, you know, and I kind of wish someone had told me that. Just like when you're performing, right, when you're the straight A student, nobody thinks you're at risk. Right. So I had a moment when I was 17 and there was a murder suicide. The founder's son killed one of his abusers and then took his own life. And so I had this extremely surreal moment where I'm watching the news and it's saying, children of God cult. Children of God cult. Children of God cult. And I was like, oh, I grew up in a cult. Right. You realize then that's the cult. And literally I was like, that's what's wrong with me.

You know. That's crazy. In my case, that just put me further into masking of like, you know, I really felt like I would get kicked out if people realized I didn't belong. Of your college. I actually of just the world. I don't even know how to explain it, you know, but like I used to have this dream, I mean, into my 30s where they had found out, they had found out that my high school diploma was not valid. And so everything else I did in my life was invalidated. And I was like back in high school as a 30-year-old. This podcast is sponsored by Active Skin Repair, a skin health brand that helps your skin heal using natural, non-toxic, medical-grade ingredients. You know those products that you end up using for one specific thing,

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Make it a moment. Sit, talk, laugh. Soak up the sauce. Soak up the time together. You can find Borilla Albronzo pasta in the red bag at Select Retailers Nationwide. You can click on the link in the description to find a store near you. Did you go to therapy for any of this? Definitely not. Until later. It's crazy that as a young person who's, essentially like you're alone on this island, you're concealing so much stuff, and you're, you're not lying, but you're just concealing it all because you don't know what else to do. You don't have your mom. You're with all these people that you don't fit in with. Like, what was your outlet? Was it really just the knitting? It was, it was knitting. You know,

it has always been art. But at the time, like when I was that young, it was, you know, I majored in literature. So it was just reading books, writing. And what is, dating look like for you with all of the past trauma and you not feeling like you fit in. Was that something you were comfortable with or were you closed off in that regard? No, I was the opposite. I was the opposite of closed off, which was that I was like, well, the one thing I know how to do is get a man's attention and keep a man's attention. And so I was very, I hate the word promiscuous because I think it's made up to critique women and it's stupid. But I would say as a young person, I was rather,

promiscuous. And, you know, there's this other thing that I tell young people all the time, which is when someone tells you you're so mature for your age, they're not complimenting you. They're targeting you. So, like, in 18 years old in college, at this chess party, 26-year-old PhD student comes over and, you know, becomes my first boyfriend. And it's so hard because precocious maturity comes from trauma.

generally, right, comes from growing up out of order. Yes. And so it's hard to not hear it as a compliment because it's true. I was so mature for my age. I couldn't get along with kids my age because I didn't know how to be a kid, but I could get along with adults. I would talk about the background more openly with people that I dated. I was never the person that could just totally be closed off.

Right. And so those were some of like the only people that ever knew. I'm not sure it affected you intimately. And it also, yeah. Right. I would imagine. I have a lot of trauma related to sex. And so that was always something that came up and was really difficult.

You're married and you have a daughter. Are you honest with your daughter about all the things you've been through? Yes. So one thing that's interesting is it's actually I've been married twice because I got married in college. and it was very much what we call a 1-1 cult, just like an abusive, controlling relationship that is part of why I joined the Army and part of why I was able to get away from him

was because I was in the Army. Okay. But I had a lot of my trauma triggered when I deployed back to, you know, I get to Afghanistan, I'm on another compound, surrounded by dangerous men, our men in this case. And a lot of that stuff came back up for me. And so I started, I think, dealing with it when I was 24, 25.

While you were deployed. Wow. And fortunately, had therapy and had people that understood it because, you know, I was so kind of suicidal and dealing with a lot of stuff. So I was able to see our trauma therapist in the military. And I just got so lucky that the random person assigned to my unit had done their internship with women and children from cults. And so she sort of had this idea of how she could help me. That's sort of cosmic. Yeah. But my husband was the first person that I met just as a friend. And I had decided to start talking about my background. So my current husband. So that was like,

it's such a different relationship from like, first let me, you know, get. to know you and make sure you like me. And then after a while, probably because I'm having some trauma with sex, I'm going to explain to you a little bit about the background. But I was just completely open with him about it. And I have been also with my daughter. But obviously at an age appropriate level, yeah. So it's a constant conversation, you know. So right now she's 10. And the way she explains my life to her friends, she says, well, my mom just didn't have a good child. But then she goes, so she's made me the best childhood ever. Aw, well, doesn't that make you feel good?

Yeah. I mean, there's a very interesting part of being a parent that was re-triggering, but also healing. Really? So it was actually when my daughter was about one years old that I was like, oh, I need to do more. I need to tell this story because I need all of this pain and my child. my life to, I was like, I need to make my pain matter for some reason. Maybe it can help other people because otherwise I'm not going to stay around and I have to because I have a kid. You have to stay around. Well, I was going to ask, so now, because you were so private about everything you went

through and you did feel at one point, okay, I'm going to get kicked out of the world. Do you think your daughter was the catalyst to you being like, you know what? This is my story. I need to do something good with all of this bad stuff. Like what made you now be so comfortable? And I don't know if you're that comfortable talking about this, but how it seems that you're comfortable sharing this. Because it is really beautiful what you are doing. I mean, I think it started even before my daughter. And it started with my husband who just unconditionally loves me.

And I don't think I'd ever really experienced that before. You know, don't have to perform, don't have to do anything. You know, recently I had got off my anxiety meds for a little bit and I was like understood. You know, it's when you have an anxiety disorder, you don't know that until you get on meds and then you realize what it was. So I had these two weeks where I was off waiting for the new prescription and I was like, oh my gosh, how do you all live with me? Like, I'm so anxious. He just looks at me and he goes, babe, we'll take you anyway. We can get you.

Aw. We love him. So I had, you know, fortunately that I found a very good partner. And but yeah, you know, having my kid, I mean, my daughter was born and she didn't breathe for seven minutes. Oh, my gosh. And I remember lying there in the bed, you know, they're. It's a huge emergency. They're working on her. And my thought was like, of course, of course, I don't get to marry the prince and just live happily ever after. Like, of course, I'm going

to lose my child. And that was, yeah, a moment that kind of like really stuck with me and made me realize like, yeah, I need to, I need to heal. I need to do something. And I didn't even realize how much. until I wrote my memoir. And I was like, I'm going to tell my story. I have to start talking about this. Otherwise, it's going to kill me. I had struggled with suicidal ideology for a decade. Then your family freaks out when you write a memoir. So you have to, you know, really be strong about wanting to do it. Yes. But, you know, I had told myself for so many years, I'm fine. I'm fine. I'm fine. It wasn't that bad. I'm fine. Okay, it was that bad, but I'm fine. And then I've, I read my own book, and I was like, wow, that's so much. Yeah. Okay, this lady needs therapy. It is so much. That is when I signed up for regular all the time therapy, which has definitely been a huge, huge factor.

What does freedom mean to you now, whether it be from the cult or I know you said so much was triggered joining the military for you. have like what does life mean to you now in this current stage that you're in? You know, there was an interesting moment that I had and it was after I wrote my first book. I finished my master's degree and I did a whole semester studying situational identity theory, which is basically group identity. And I realized, I was like, oh, I never got to form a personal identity. And as soon as I was able to put that into words. I was like, oh, cool. You know, and I had a kid, so I'm watching a child, like from the ages of one to six, that's your job, is to develop a personal identity. And then again, as a teenager, you're supposed to be developing an individual identity separate from your family.

And you have to go through that process. And it's called delayed adolescence when we have to do it, after cults. And it's very hard. And people in your life will call you. a narcissist, but it is like, you know, I just had to be like, okay, what do I like? What do I want to do with my life? It's a funny question, how you phrased it with freedom, because when I got my book deal, which was like, came with a nice advance, so it was the, okay, I'm going to get to do this for five more years. And my first thought was, I'm going to wear whatever I want for the rest of my life. And actually, the, you know, the knitting has really come full circle. I started designing my own clothes. I make these necklaces. I call them love bomb collars. And I take, like,

junk from thrift stores or people send them to me. And then I just add extra stuff to it. And when I sell people the pattern, it also comes with a fact sheet on what love bombing is and how people can get you. And I have made you one. Thank you. Oh my gosh. Thank you. Can I open it now? That's what these nails are for. Oh my gosh. This is so beautiful. These colors. And the dragonfly. A dragonfly is a symbol of starting over. So what does love bombing mean in your details? Because I know. Love bombing is how you get, yeah, how you get drawn into a cult. And I've been in one-on-one cults then. One-on-one cults. It happens in single-family cults, but you are overwhelmed. You know, so the children of God, right? They would have all these beautiful young teenagers out on Huntington Beach and just walk up to you smiling and laughing and pull you in. You know, so my grandfather joins the cult because one night he had a bad LSD trip where he met Satan. And so the next day he's here in a park in L.A. with his head in his hands. and wondering what to do with his life, I guess, as one does after they meet Satan.

Yeah, I wouldn't want to meet Satan. And up come these four bouncing, happy, smiling, guitar playing young people that just want to tell him how much Jesus loves him and they love him. And off he goes. And that's how it starts. And the important part about love bombing is there's a bait and switch, right? And even in the military, they do this with recruit. When you go to a recruiter, it's all about you. It's all about what the Army can do for you and how you're going to have this great career and it's going to be so great, blah, blah, blah, you can do anything you want.

And then the first thing they tell you in basic training is we don't care what your recruiter told you. You're ours now. Oh, my gosh. You know, and all of a sudden it's now needs of the Army and you're not an individual anymore and you have to do what's good for the group. But because of the love bombing, you have this knowledge that it can be that good, that you can have that love and that person. perfection and that passion. It's really crazy all of it, how convoluted at all is. Were you in contact with your mom at all when you were out of the cult? Like, would you still speak with her? One of the things that my mom did was she refused to shun me. Oh. You know, and so she always let me

call and talk and was never like mean or bad about it. That's beautiful. And then she ended up leaving about a decade after me. And it was because one of her children was very, very, very sick. And cults don't like medical care. You know, they don't want you being in the establishment. First of all, it's two individual. Right. And second of all, medical providers tend to wake people up from abusive relationships. Right. Sometimes. And so my mom just took her kid, got, they were still in Mexico, got in a plane to Houston, and took her child to the hospital. And then called my dad. who had the other five kids and was like, I'm not coming back. Right.

Wow. And so it's now been probably almost 20 years even for her, maybe 15 years. Wow. I think like she and I did our deconstruction together, just talking about, you know, reading all these books about cults. And one of the things about cults is they're all the same. So if you read like somebody else's cult story, you'll be able to notice the same patterns. Like human beings control other human beings.

in the same way. One of the things I've realized that my, like, purpose in life is to help us develop the language for the experience of growing up in cults and being in cults and what that's like. Is your mom so, so proud of you? My mom's pretty proud of me. Yeah. I hope could she not be. And I always say, I don't know if she's prouder that I got a master's degree from Harvard, was a captain in the army, or that I built myself a business just knitting and talking to the internet. I think she's equally proud of all three things. Yeah. How could she not be? I mean, you are Teflon. Like, you are crazy that this could all happen and you have such poise and grace. And I know it's not easy. But the way that you're able to share your story with the world, it's, it helps so,

so many people. And even people that are in a cult, I think just from a abuse standpoint, love bombing standpoint, one-on-one cult, as you say. The guidance, the perspective, the light you're shining on that, and the way that you perceive it. And I'm like, like, lights are going off in my head. I'm like, yeah, you're right. Like so many things. It's so, so courageous of you. Well, you know, it's been interesting to me ever since I left the call and started meeting other Americans because it was very clear to me that many Americans had experienced. coercive control in one way or the other, but it just hadn't been named or identified. And, you know, I always say I have the benefit of the extreme story. Like, nobody argues

that children of God was a bad cult. So I don't have to define cults or defend or anything. And so I just tell my stories and then let other people, you know, I always say, like, if you're hearing a story of the girl who grew up in one of the worst cult and you're relating, Yes. Right. Let's dig into that. And it doesn't have to be always that extreme, you know, but like I call us, there's a generation of kids in America who weren't allowed to watch Harry Potter because we were in some kind of religion generally that our parents thought it was evil. And so there's this one piece of the culture that you weren't allowed to participate in. And like that experience of being held separate from your peers. that experience is the same, regardless of like how extreme it was or like what the reasoning was. And that's the part I think that really fascinates me is like how we can all have these different experience. And I mean, coercive control doesn't just happen in cults. That's just the most extreme version that gets our attention.

Right. And so my most recent book, The Culting of America, what I did was I was like, okay, I've built this 10-part definition of cults. and I'm going to show it to you in real cults. Oh, I saw. And then in the military and then in regular society. Well, I am so, so grateful that you came and you're so vulnerable, so open, so transparent about everything. Thank you for being here. Yeah.

Thanks for having me.