Khloé in Wonder Land - Secrets to Loving Yourself ft. Jay Shetty

Episode Date: January 23, 2025

Khloé Kardashian and #1 NYT bestselling author and podcast host Jay Shetty dive into healing, past trauma, and self-worth. Khloé talks embracing self-love, while Jay shares insights on stillness and choosing love daily.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

I had to deal with a lot of trauma to get to this point. I believe you're worthy of love and you deserve love. I know what was done to me was not about me. Everyone in the world thinks that romantic love is the highest form of love. I'd argue that a mother's love for her child is far more the truest, purest form of love. I'm not dating because my relationship with my kids, it's everything to me. I'm willing to give up or sacrifice anything in order to put love at the center of my life.

This is more than a show. It's a window into my world and the stories that make it meaningful. Welcome to Chloe and Wonderland. I know we last saw each other in India,. Me, you, your wife Kim, we were there for a fabulous wedding. Yes. And you actually took us by where you practiced being a monk. Yes. I took you to one of the temples I lived at. Yeah. It was so beautiful to share that with you. Thank you for being so curious and open and respectful. It was wonderful to see

just how many questions you both had and how gracious you were. I read your book Think Like a Monk a while ago and just you know I'm a little sick but one of the reasons why I loved you said I wrote it down because I don't want to mumble it up but I love that you wrote the work you were doing in the corporate world started to feel like it had no meaning, because you didn't see the positive impact it had in society. And one of the reasons why I wanted to do this podcast so badly is, I don't want to discredit anything else that I do. I love fashion and fragrance. And I love our TV show, I get to spend all this time with my family. But sometimes I feel like there has to be more of an impact

that we're leaving on other people. And with this podcast, and you know, there's gonna be times where it's laughter and humorous and fun, but then there's also times where you get someone like you who's all about depth and you learn so much and you, it's really about paying it forward. Well, you're being so kind and gracious.

I'm really touched by that. And I think for me, when you grow up in an Indian family, you have three choices. And the three choices would be a doctor, a lawyer, or a failure. And it really does feel like that sometimes. I feel like I grew up not even knowing what careers existed beyond a certain set. And I think for me, what inspired me a lot was I was studying the lives of people that really inspired me.

And that's why I love what you're doing with Wonderland, because I felt like my teens were kind of like that. I was exposed to so many different stories, biographies, autobiographies, people that I'd never met. And I was reading about Martin Luther King. I was reading about Malcolm X. I was also reading Dwayne The Rock Johnson and David Beckham.

And that's where it comes in. I had this balance since day one. And what I found in all of them was that they had faith and spirituality somewhere. It existed in some part of their life. And what was beautiful is that you could see that these people were always driven from a deeper place. And when I would read the words of Martin Luther King or I'd read the words of Malcolm X, I'd always feel like they were just living in this invisible world inside. And I just thought to myself that if everyone in my life that I respect and admire have all worked from a deeper place, then maybe that's something worth pursuing.

And I think it was very simple and basic, if I'm honest, Chloe. I saw a lot of people around me who were doing well financially, who were doing well materially, who were doing well career-wise, but they weren't happy. And I think when I was 18, I'd met people who were beautiful, I'd met people who were rich, I'd met people who were strong and powerful, but they weren't happy and fulfilled.

And so I thought to myself, when I met the monks, I was like, they seem happy. They seem fulfilled. Now I have to caveat that with, I don't think it's because you can't be happy in the material world. I don't think it's because you can't have a fulfilled life with a day-to-day job.

I really have to clarify that. I think I just hadn't had that experience. So for me, there was curiosity. There was a desire to, a big part of it was wanting to master my mind. I just really felt that a lot of emotions that you experience in your teenage years, I just felt this calling to say,

if I could master my mind, that would be a worthy pursuit, and if I could figure out how to serve other people, that would be a worthy pursuit. And the monks had both of those things where they were trying to master their emotions and help people. It's what you said at the beginning of this, that you do so much to build incredible platform,

but then you also wanna know how to have an impact. They were the first people I met that embodied both things. But I think the bravery it takes because it's like the weight of the world is on you by that decision. Yes, yes. And you being able to make that decision because it's like the weight of the world is on you by that decision. And you being able to make that decision because it's not selfish, it's selfless. That's for you because or else it does become very mundane life.

We know all these people that have all these things, but they might not be happy because it doesn't really satisfy their souls. They're doing it probably because they can't get off the ride. Yeah. Once you're on and also once you live this lifestyle, sometimes you feel like you have to keep it up, even if you don't want it half the time. For sure. Yeah. Either social media or which I hate to say that,

but we all become a prisoner to social media in some regard or our circle of friends around us. It could be on a grand scale or a small scale. My friends who have the nine to fives seem so much happier than my friends that maybe do more of the showy type of stuff, because I feel like they have more that they're trying to prove to society. So I think by you, I understand you were much younger

and at a different stage in your life, but even just you saying that to your family and going to India, that seems like a huge responsibility and also not a burden, but like a huge weight that you had to carry because you almost had to prove it to your family. Yeah, it was definitely hard when I made the decision

because all of my friends and family were super confused. They thought, how are you gonna give up? You just, you know, you're gonna graduate, you're gonna get a great degree, always been a straight-A student, and now you're gonna give that all up to become a monk? And like, why? And so no one could really understand me.

No one could, no one was seeing me for what I could see and why it was so important to me. It wasn't this popular decision where I had like a leaving party or anything like that. It was, I remember my mom was crying. My extended family were saying things like, you're never going to get a job. This is the worst decision of your life. It's career suicide. You're letting your family down.

It came with a lot of pressure. And especially because my parents are also both not really well to do, everyone was like, well, who's gonna take care of your parents? Right. Like who's gonna take care of your family? Right. And so there was a lot of pressure.

I was carrying a lot of guilt. There was also the worry of, well, if it doesn't work, what am I gonna say? Of course. Maybe all these people will be right. And I left to like this heavy feeling of I'm really excited about this and I have to do it for myself. And I think that's the part that I'm really glad I did it at that early age because I

got a confidence from early on in my life that no one had to agree with me for me to make the right decision. I didn't have to crowd source an answer where everyone agreed. I just had to know that it felt right within me. And I think I started listening to my inner voice since I was 14. So it's so loud for me that I can't ignore it. Wow.

Even till this day. Oprah said something like that. Like her whole career is based, like I, again, I'm paraphrasing the story, but I guess when she was like four years old, her grandmother was hanging clothes on a drying rack, you know, the drying string outside and her grandmother said something like, you're going to be doing this one day. And she said, Oh no, I'm not. And that was the voice in her head. And then forever she

just learned to listen to that voice. And she said, the only time she's made the wrong choices is when she didn't listen to that voice and she said the only time she's made the wrong choices is when she didn't listen to that voice. I can agree with that completely. But for you to have that confidence and to have that voice and to listen to it like and especially with all the naysayers and everything against you I mean it just is a testament to who you are and that there is something divine and loud inside of you. Yeah, inside of all of us, not just inside of me. I think that anyone who's wondering going,

oh Jay, I don't have that voice. I haven't heard it for a long time. Like, where is it? The truth is we all have it. We've just quieted it for so long. It's almost like, you know, I mean, you're a mom, you know what it feels like to be a parent, but if every time your child runs to you and has something to say,

you're like, oh, just be quiet, just be quiet. I need to focus, just be quiet. Then the kid will come the next time, and then they'll be like, mom, mom, mom, can I tell you? And you'll be like, no, just be quiet, just be quiet, just be quiet. Over some time, that kid will learn to just be quiet. And now all of a sudden, they don't get to express how they feel, they don't get to share their emotions,

they don't get to open up about their feelings. And that's the voice inside of us. The voice inside of us is just this little child who's been guiding us, directing us, sharing with us what our truth is. But we told it to quieten down because our parents' voice was loud, because our teachers' voice was loud, because our aunt's voice was loud.

Whoever's voice kind of was the loudest and the strongest, it was easy to get that kid to be quiet. So I would encourage everyone to sit with their child within themselves and let it speak. And by the way, right now, if you haven't done it for a long time, it may say some stuff that you don't wanna hear. And it may say something that you find uncomfortable,

but I promise you it's doing it because it loves you and wants you to have that dialogue every day. And so I think thinking about it through the lens of a mother is probably the best way because you have direct, tangible experience of what that feels like. But imagine you're mothering the child within yourself. Oh, that's beautiful.

Do you think there's ways to, for someone who has no idea what that voice sounds like, like to strengthen that or to pay attention to that voice? Do you think it's through meditation or? I would say I think it's through stillness. And when you think about monk life, a lot of it is unrelatable, right? We wake up at 4 a.m., you live out of a gym locker, all your possessions fit inside this tiny little box. I saw it. Yeah, you saw it.

I was like, oh my gosh. You saw it, yeah. Yeah, you saw it. And so, and now I have too many clothes to fit in. I like even, yeah. And so you're living this very unrelatable life. But if I had to think about what was relatable about that time or what I took away that anyone and everyone in the world could practice.

It's something I like to call 11 11 because they're angel numbers and people love those. And so it's like one day a week, spend one hour by yourself. So that's on your own. And then ask yourself one question. And the one question is, what is meaningful to me that I've been deprioritizing lately? What's really important to me in my heart, but I keep letting it fall to the bottom of the to-do list?

And I really believe that if we did that and sat with that question, the answer will emerge so naturally. And you're not, what's really interesting about the world is I think we live in a world where we feel we have to like demand an answer or force an answer. And the universe is like people, if I force you to give me an answer,

chances are you'll feel uncomfortable. And even if you give me it, it won't be the deepest answer. But when I ask it as almost like a plea, a sincere request, a hopeful request, then everything unfolds and a person in front of you just melts open. And so when you're talking to yourself, don't demand it. Don't be like, Oh, I don't know what the answer is. I can't hear my inner voice. When it's that resistance, it almost creates a lot of tension.

And so I would say one day a week for one hour, sit on your own and ask yourself one question. What is it that is so important to me that I keep deprioritizing? And that question is the number one question that allows your inner voice to rise, because it allows yourself to be honest, authentic, and it allows yourself to be honest, authentic, and it allows yourself to be truthful with yourself in that safe space. So I highly recommend that as a practice.

And so you don't have to learn meditation, you don't have to build a new habit, you just have to try that. Chloe and Wonderland is sponsored by BetterHelp. Every January brings you 365 blank pages waiting to be filled. In 2025 maybe you're ready for a plot twist, or maybe there's a part of your story you've been wanting to revise. Life isn't about resolutions that fade by February. It's about picking up the pen and becoming the author of your own life.

Think of therapy as your editorial partner, helping you write new chapters and create the meaningful story you deserve to live. There's a common misconception that therapy is only for those who've experienced major trauma, but it's not. Therapy is for everyone. Therapy helps you learn positive coping skills and how to set boundaries.

It empowers you to be the best version of yourself. BetterHelp is fully online, making therapy affordable and convenient, serving over 5 million people worldwide. Access a diverse network of more than 30,000 credentialed therapists with a wide range of specialties and easily switch therapists anytime at no extra cost. Write your story with BetterHelp.

Visit betterhelp.com slash Chloe today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash Chloe. BetterHelp dot com slash Chloe. I think the problem so many people have is they can't be alone with themselves. I think in today's day and age they need, I mean our phones, social media, everything has become such an avoidance for things. It's a distraction. You see people standing in line at the grocery store. They can't just wait for the checkout. They're constantly on their phone. They need something to do.

We've all become like that. Fidgety, whatever the case may be. Where for me, when I started to meditate, I'm still not great at it, but I practice it. The first time I started, I was thinking, this is so stupid, I can't do this. Like I hear all these voices in my head, and it's telling me, you have to do this.

I have to make True's lunch or whatever it is. That just to put out there for the listeners that it takes time to get to that 11 11 place. For sure, and studies show that we have to be compassionate. They did a research study with men and women, and they asked them whether they wanted to be alone with their thoughts for 15 minutes or give themselves an electric shock. Don't tell me.

So here's the stats. Twenty seven percent of women chose an electric shock and 60 percent of men chose an electric shock. And when they were asked why, they said it's because they didn't want to be alone with their thoughts, just as you said. And so I have to, we have to look at this compassionately with ourselves and the people around us.

That's normality. We don't want to be alone with our thoughts. But it's a practice that only gets easier the more you do it. And you start to feel comfortable in your own company. You start to feel OK in your own mind. And by the way, one of the reasons why we struggle to sleep and why we struggle to do all of this is the only time we ever listen to our thoughts

is when our head hits the pillow. So if you did that before your head hit the pillow, chances are you'll have a much more restful sleep. You're so right. You'll actually be able to disconnect because that's the only time we actually go inward. And so don't save it for the pillow. Do it before the pillow.

Do it before you get into bed. And you might even have a much more restful sleep. So I don't think just getting close to your thoughts is about meditation or it's about living a more meaningful life. I think it impacts your health. It impacts your physicality. It impacts your stress.

It impacts how much you can listen to others because you're not constantly lost. And so I think it's a habit that will benefit every relationship in your life and it will definitely experience a better relationship with yourself. No, I agree completely. Now that you are where you are,

are your parents proud of everything you've done? Are they like, yes, we encouraged you? Do they have a different narrative? So Indian parents are very interesting, but I would love to, and I wanna hear your thoughts on this too, cause I feel like I'm sure you've done things that were counterintuitive to what family wanted.

So I wanna hear about yours. But I would say my mom is my number one fan, and I think that's a mom way to be. So my mom's always like, I love it when I see your mom, like, post, like, what each of you are doing and what you're up to. She's so proud and it's so sweet. And my mom's like that too. Like, I'll be like, Mom, don't tell anyone this. I'm just telling you, like, I'm going on Chloe's podcast.

Like, don't tell anyone. And she'll be like on the phone to her friend, like, telling her everything. And she'll get a call from like some random insurance company or like whatever it is. And she'll be like, Oh yeah, did you know my son's sense? And so my mom's a sweetheart and I'm happy for her to have that because she sacrificed so much for me. My mom was the main breadwinner. She made us breakfast, lunch and dinner every day. She dropped us to school, me and my younger sister, she picked us up from school. She made us dinner, lunch, and dinner every day. She dropped us to school, me and my younger sister. She picked us up from school. She made us dinner.

She did our homework with us and then went out to work and came back. So my mom is superwoman and incredible. And she's been through so much hardship in her life that if that makes her happy, I'm like, have it. And yesterday we were at a team dinner and we were playing that game, We're Not Really Strangers. I don't know that game. It's a really good card game where you playing that game, We're Not Really Strangers. I don't know that game. It's a really good card game where you just pick cards

but they have really good questions. Oh, I love card games. Yeah, and so we were playing with my team and I picked one and my one said, what was your happiest memory this year? And my happiest memory was my mom came out to spend some time with me in LA. And my mom's quite a restless, busy body.

She always wants to do stuff. She always wants to be active. And this was the first time in my whole life I'd seen her just be at peace in my home. And I was so happy to see that because she's 70 years old. And to see her be so comfortable with herself without needing to do anything,

it was my happiest memory of the year. So all of that to say, my mom is very happy, my dad's a man of few words, and he will sometimes say something, but it will be like the tiniest thing. And I'll tell you something, Chloe, that really resonated with me because of all of this, I'm sure you can relate to this. I found over time, and this isn't just about me,

it's about all of us, I found over time, and this isn't just about me, it's about all of us, I found that ultimately no one will ever be able to truly celebrate or validate you for what you do. Like as your friend and as someone who appreciates you and I, you know, since the beginning, I always loved seeing how you are, you know, we're true and everything else. Just like how special that bond is for you.

No matter how close you are with anyone, only you know as a mother how much love you have. How much you've sacrificed, how hard you've worked. And the only person who can validate you is you. And so even my parents who love me, who've sacrificed so much for me, they can't validate me and I can't validate them. I can try to understand them and I should,

but I really learned over time that I have to validate myself. I have to close my eyes and thank myself, celebrate myself, appreciate myself. Are you good at doing that? I've learned I've had to be, because I started to realize that no one else could do it for me.

Even, I'm sure you have it. Let's say you have a great success, like something with Good American or whatever maybe. And someone says to you like, oh, Chloe, that was incredible. And it feels good, but there's still something else. And I think a lot of us have relied on other people to make us feel good,

which is why we don't know how to make ourselves feel good. Which is why whenever something happens, we're waiting for the messages or the look or the acknowledgement. And when it doesn't come or it doesn't come as deeply, it almost feels like we haven't achieved enough. And then we keep trying to get to that next mountain and that next mountain and that next mountain,

hoping that if we do something bigger and better, more people will celebrate us. But actually they just get more immune to it. And so I've really become good at practicing it because I've learned that if I can close my eyes, validate, appreciate, and celebrate myself, there is no better feeling. And I think it's so antithetical

because most of us find it cringy or weak or whatever it may be, but the truth is it's just- Or egotistical. Or egotistical. Because I think I'm really bad at celebrating myself. I think that, well I know I'm phenomenal at celebrating others, and I mean it with every fiber of me.

I'm like everyone's biggest cheerleader, I'm so happy. And me and my family, we're not competitive, we're motivated by one another. So if someone is like, oh I just did X, Y, and Z, I'm like, yes, you rock, and then I'm like, I want to do that too. But not in an envious way in a, like they lit a fire under me type of way. But I'm not good at being like, wow, I started my own podcast. Like, I think whether they be big or small, like just because I started this, like that's an

accomplishment doesn't mean it has to be the number one podcast show and I have to take every little step and applaud myself because years ago I used to, and I feel like I lost that. It's weird, I lost more of my confidence in myself the longer I've been in this industry. So interesting. As opposed to the opposite. Why been in this industry. So interesting. As opposed to the opposite. Why is that?

I don't know. I feel as much as I like to say, I try not to listen to the negative on social or this or that. When we started was in 2006 or 2007 and there was no Instagram, there was no, I think there was like MySpace and Facebook. Twitter came a little bit later. And you just weren't, the noise wasn't so loud because we had blackberries.

It was like a great different innocent time. And the louder the noise got, as much as you don't wanna hear it, you still hear it even a little bit. And it does, even if you don't believe it, it does chip away at you. And what's interesting is you would think that I would be like so immune and I'm Teflon

and this doesn't bother me. But even if I say it doesn't, I've realized that subconsciously it does. And that I, like I love what you said. I do wanna sit there and celebrate myself with it whether they be big or smaller even sometimes if I've had a crazy day with my kids and I'm like okay at the end of the day I'm like I'm just happy we all made it through the day like sometimes that is the

accomplishment for the day and that's enough yeah and I hope you'll do that I hope you'll take a moment I hope everyone who's listening and watching will do that today just close your'll take a moment. I hope everyone who's listening and watching will do that today. Just close your eyes for a moment. Validate something that you want everyone to validate. We all want to be validated for something. You're a really hard worker. You're a really good mom.

You put your best foot forward every day. You're a kind person. We all want to hear those things and let's say them to ourselves. We all want to be appreciated for some part of ourselves and we all want to be celebrated for something and I just feel like we have to start with ourselves. We have to do it for ourselves because then when someone else does it, it's a bonus. You appreciate it. You can also honor them back. Whereas when you're waiting for it for someone and it never comes and they don't have time for it. I'll give you an example. Like, my wife, I remember this a few years ago, my wife said to me, I've had such a hard day.

And I said to her, tell me about it. I've had such a hard week. And what I was doing was I was using her opportunity to just express how she felt with me to validate myself because I wasn't validating I was working hard so I was taking her moment of being like, oh I've had such a hard day babe like I'm you know I'm just and I'm like yeah tell me about it I'm working way harder than you are. Like I had to make it about me and afterwards when I sat there and I apologized to her I was thinking why was I doing that? I was doing that because I don't validate myself for working hard.

I'm waiting for it for someone else and so soon as someone else opens up, I'm hijacking their validation and making it about me. So you think about all the relationships in your life that would be bettered if you went stealing someone else's validation. I call them the one-uppers. Yes, yeah, I've been one of those guys for sure.

Why are these people one-uppers? And anything you do, it can be positive, negative, it's the one-uppers. But now, do you guys make sure you sort of check in with each other? Is that a way to avoid that? Like, you make sure you have time to be like, how was your... Like, do you make that a priority to talk about if there's anything you guys want to talk about on that level? Yeah, there's four check-ins I like to do with my wife every year.

So one of them is a check-in we do every single week. And the question is, what was your highlight of the week? And I love that because it lets me see what she values. It lets me see what's important to her. So she's like, oh yeah, my highlight was I talked to this really cool guest on my podcast and they were talking about so many interesting things. I'm like, oh, got it. Like, she's passionate about whatever it may be.

And I feel like when you tell someone your highlight, you learn so much about them. And that's also mirrored with, she can tell me what the hardest thing was she went through that week. Every month I'll ask her, what do you need help with this week? That way I know what she's struggling with.

So she might just be like, or actually it's usually me. I'm like, hey, babe, I've got a really busy month this month. I've got like back to back days, schedules crazy. Just please know that I'll be present as much as I can, but if I'm on my phone a bit or whatever, just let me know, just give me a second. Give me some grace and let me know,

because I might not be the best version of myself at all times. So that's every month. Every quarter, this one's a tough one, but it's really helped us. I always ask the question, is this relationship going in the direction we want? And if it isn't, what are we both willing to do?

So are we both going and moving in the way we want to? And if it isn't, what are you willing to change? And what am I willing to change? And every year, the obvious ones, I'll say, what's your goals this year and how can I help you? And so I feel those check-ins are so important because the first one tells me what she loves. The second one tells me what she's struggling with.

The third one tells me what I need to change and what we need to do. And the fourth one, again, tells me where we're going. And so those four check-ins have become a part of a regular part of our lives now. Sometimes she gets annoyed when I bring them up. No, I love that. I mean, annoyed when I bring them up. No, I love that. I mean, ever since I was little with my dad, we would have family dinner and every dinner

we would do the peak and the pit of our day. And my kids, I do that with my kids, but they're young. So they'll tell me, oh, you know, the most basic thing, but it's cute to implement that into their lives. What kind of stuff do they say? Oh, they'll be like, oh, my favorite part was when you forgot. I forgot to brush my daughter's teeth one time.

We were like, and I freaked out and we got a toothbrush. I brushed her teeth at school, but she thinks it's so funny that I forgot to do that. And I'm always like, well, you have to remember your six too. But she loves to bring that up, but that was one of her favorite parts. That's so cute. I love that. And I just thought that was funny that that's what she remembers.

And so, but just little things like that. Yeah. And, you know, a lot of them will say that they love our family dinners because I have family dinners with like, I do Bible study every Thursday at my house for my nieces and nephews. And so last night I had seven of them and we go around the table and we tell them and some can be crazy like they liked that they pulled someone's pants down or something. I'm like you guys are just nuts but they're at that age but it's just good to get that

going. So I think it's so important to do that. Yeah it's so great that you have those rituals with them already. And that stems from my dad. My dad's been gone for like 21 years and it's so important to do that. It's so great that you have those rituals with them already. And that stems from my dad. My dad's been gone for like 21 years and it's still something we do. So things like that, you will probably pass down. You'll do it in a different version with your children and then they pass it down and I really find that beautiful.

We all have trauma, whether it be big or small. I always joke. I'm always like, well, my kids better not talk about childhood trauma, because they have the best freaking lives. And they do, but it's going to happen. It's inevitable. But were there ever moments where you found yourself reacting to something and realized it was an old wound

showing up and it was misdirected energy? And if so, how do you catch yourself in doing that? Yeah, first of all, I want to say how great it is that you can accept that no matter how amazing a mom you are and how great the kids' childhoods are, that they will be inevitably, I say it all the time to my wife, whenever we're talking about having children,

I'll always just say like, we're not going to get it perfect. And they're going to have something that they disagree with what we did. No matter how well-intentioned it was, no matter how thoughtful we were, no matter how many hours we both spent trying to be so conscious,

they're gonna find a way. Like I know kids whose parents push them too hard and they're like, oh, I was pushed too hard, I wish I had more free time. And then I know people who had loads of free time and they're like, I wish you pushed me more hard, I'd be more disciplined. And so there's always gonna be that.

For me, there was a really interesting one and for me what's fascinating is a lot of my wounds and triggers come out in my relationship with my wife. That's where I see them. And I think I see them there very visibly because I'm most myself with her, but also because I'm most honest with myself in how I am with her, because I wanna love her

and I wanna be a great husband. That's the part where I evaluate myself the most, because it's a role I take seriously. So I found that when me and my wife first got together, we've been together for 11 years now, I would be one of the most over-loving people. So I was really good at showing up, but being over the top in love.

But what I would do is I'd then make her feel guilty if she didn't over-love me back. So I'd do all of this stuff because I wanted to, not because she asked. And then if she didn't reciprocate at the same level, I would then make her feel guilty for it, or as if she didn't reciprocate at the same level, I would then make her feel guilty for it, or as if she didn't love me as much. And I realized that that's how my mom loved me growing up.

It was how my mom loved me. My mom loved me and my sister with all her heart, but then we often were made to feel guilty if we didn't live up to that. And so that's how I was loved. So that's the only way I knew how to love. And when I kept doing it to my wife and it just kept pushing her away, So that's how I was loved. So that's the only way I knew how to love. And when I kept doing it to my wife

and it just kept pushing her away and I saw her becoming more distant and I saw that she didn't love me more when I made her feel guilty, she loved me less. I started to question, what am I doing? Where does this come from? Why does it exist? And I realized it all came from that

in that I was loved in that way. So when you say, how do you spot these? I always call it, focus on the gifts and the gaps from your parents. Your parents gave you certain gifts. Now we expect those gifts from others. And not everyone's gonna be able to live up to our parents' love.

And then our parents left gaps. There were ways in which they didn't love us, and now we want everyone else to fill them. So those are the two types of trigger that we all feel. And so if you look at your life and go, what gifts did my parents give me? And where do I expect them? And what gaps did my parents leave?

And where do I expect other people to fill them? That gives you a really clear way of noticing where your trauma stems from. And so as soon as I noticed that, I realized that if I wanted to have a healthy relationship with my wife, I had to love her how I wanted to love her and let her love me how she wanted to love me. And as long as we were willing to accept both of those,

there was a healthy relationship there. But if I was gonna force her or want her to reciprocate in the same way as I was giving, then I was setting us up both for failure. But the brain you have, because our brain is a muscle, and it is not very easy to reprogram it. It takes so much effort and conscious effort to do such a thing. So for you to be able to identify it as one thing,

but to actually implement that and live like that. I mean, that's, you have a very determined, just you have a very strong-willed mind. I just want every day to be filled with love. I believe that I'm worthy of love, I deserve love, and I believe that she is worthy of love, and she deserves love. I believe you're worthy of love, and you deserve love. And because I don't want to live a day without love, I think life's too short to live any day without love.

I'm willing to give up or sacrifice anything in order to put love at the center of my life. Because I've seen loveless relationships, I've seen loveless relationships, I've seen loveless friendships and family members. A loveless life is never going to be a fulfilling one. And that's one of the things I appreciate so much about you and your family. Whenever I've spent time with any of you in different configurations, there's so much love, like there's so much love you have for each other. it's true and it's real and the appreciation that,

you know, that you have for one another and the respect you have for one another, it's so powerful and it's really beautiful to witness. Because I think that also we've put romantic love on this pedestal where like everyone in the world thinks that romantic love is the highest form of love. And that if you have that, you mastered love. Right, if you've had a long marriage,

you must have had the most love in your life. And I actually think we've set ourselves up for failure, because if we're saying that romantic love is the only number one love, and all the other loves are kind of like whatever, we're missing out on so many more opportunities. And I'd argue that a mother's love for her child is far more the truest, purest form of love,

which is what all the spiritual literatures say. And you experienced that as a mother, I've experienced that as a son. And so I actually think watching families find love, watching siblings find love, watching parents and their kids find love should not be undervalued or underestimated as filling your life with love.

I agree so much. For me, my ex, him and I are not together anymore, but we co-parent really, really well. But I've chosen to not, because I genuinely don't want to right now, I'm not dating, because my relationship with my kids just is, it's everything to me.

And not that that means people who are dating when they have kids, anything. But where I am in my life right now, I just really want to nurture this love and I just wanna be as present as I can. I don't want any distractions right now in my life. If I meet someone in two months, two years, and I fall in love, great,

but I'm not actively on the dating scene, searching for someone, and I'm so happy. I feel so fulfilled. And I also love that I've taken about three years off of dating. And I feel like I've really got to know myself on a deeper level. It's that thing about avoidance or distracting.

And when you're stuck with yourself, you're like, okay, I gotta come face to face with this version of me or what do I wanna perfect? Or how can I be a better person in this area? And so that's really what I've been doing in hopes that when I do meet my next partner, it will be my next partner, it will be my forever partner, but also the right one that I would want to be around my children and around my family. But nurturing those relationships with my mom, my siblings, my kids, my nieces and nephews,

that means more to me than anything else in my life right now. And then the person I invite in would just be that bonus. But I had to deal with a lot of trauma to get to this point. Like that's also, we were talking about the beginning. Don't discredit the things that brought you to this journey. Because even though I wouldn't wish on anyone what I went through romantically, I'm also not ashamed of anything I went through romantically, I'm also not ashamed of anything I went through romantically.

I also think it's one of my superpowers that I went through those things and I still have such a softness for love and for life. And like how you see, you want to see love every day and in every situation, so do I. And I don't think for a second, oh, the world is condemned and look at you and you're a, you know, a piece of you know what, like, I don't think like that. I just think, okay, that was my journey I was supposed to go on. It made me better. I don't know when it brought me to this point that's more in a healthy isolation where I can reflect and work on myself. But I'm at the stage of my life that I'm willing

to. I think if this would have happened 10 years ago, I would have been like, let me go to the club. And because I would be, you know, 30 because I just turned 40. I'm not going to be in the club and doing all that. But, you know, if this happened, I was younger, I would have been like, let me just go hook up with a bunch of guys. And it's that's just distracting and bearing that. But that trauma is going to resurface later. Yeah. Can I ask you's, that's just distracting. And bearing that, but that trauma's gonna resurface later. Yeah, can I ask you something about that? Of course. How did you learn to not take it personally?

Because I think that's what makes the difference in when we still feel lovable and when we feel we're not deserving of love. How did you learn that everything that happened to you almost wasn't personal? For me, it was so much of my faith. So I am a Christian, I, and I think I used to take theology in school, and I love theology. I love learning about other religions. And the root of it is really, there's a higher being and we all answer to that higher being at one point in life. And for me, it was having a lot of conversations with God when I pray, they're more conversational. And I would just talk and I realized that wasn't my journey. Like it was a part of my journey used for that person to learn life lessons. And I also feel that because

I'm strong enough and my response, like, yes, in the moment, if someone did something not great to me, I probably had not the best reaction. But that would be immediately. But afterwards, I've always handled things with respect and kindness. And no matter what someone did to me, I was never manipulative or trying to do the same thing back. And I think what people don't get, it's not eye for an eye. When you do eye for an eye, that other person isn't learning anything.

They're just like, well, see, that's why I cheated on you. Or that's why I did that. They always say that. But if you, I don't want to say like take something on the chin, but for lack of a better expression, sure. If you deal with it and if you're strong enough to say, okay, this isn't my journey, that was for them to experience. But it was me to learn and to see these signs

that I don't want in my next partner. Like that I think was part of my journey, but I know what was done to me was not about me. I know that was about them and they have past trauma that they've never healed from. And every time when you ask someone like, why'd you do this? And they'll bring up, oh, my parents

or I came from a broken house. It's always something like that. It's never about the immediate relationship. It's always from years past, but I think if it wasn't for my family, so my core circle and also my relationship with God. I just learned it wasn't about me. But maybe in the beginning, like when this happened,

probably with my first husband, I was younger and I think that was a lot harder for me. But what's interesting is with each relationship where something bad has happened, I didn't take it and was like, well, it was me, I'm this victim. I took it more like, okay, that's another layer of armor that I'm putting on myself that I can get through anything else that happens in my life. But it's also not going to harden me for my next relationship. Like I'm really big on not taking all of that baggage with me, but I still like to carry it a little just so I'm reminded.

I think of like the red flags that I'm supposed to see now, but it's not gonna make me project that onto my next partner. Yeah, absolutely. But also for my kids. Like I never wanna be that person that my kids are like, oh, I'm gonna get married. And I'm like, well, good luck. I really hate when people take their relationships

and project it. And they project it. Like I do believe in happily ever after. I am one of those hopeless romantics and I love the fairy tale and the fantasy, regardless of what's ever happened to me. I'm always gonna be that girl and I think we should be. Like I love a good Disney movie.

Don't we all? That's so beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. It's so beautiful to hear that. I'm sure it's gonna help a lot of people hearing that because I think most of us do the opposite in those moments and I'm sure you did for some time, but it's beautiful when someone's come out the other side. to help a lot of people hearing that because I think most of us do the opposite in those moments and I'm sure you did for some time

but it's beautiful when someone's come out the other side. And I think a lot of it is the isolation period I think is so healthy for us because if you just constantly distract, you're never going to face the problem. But it's always gonna be there. And I love writing, so I write and it's never for people to see

but I think that's so never for people to see. But I think that's so therapeutic. If people write down their thoughts and it can be, sometimes I don't know what the hell I'm going to write. The pen is just on paper and it's gibberish. Then all of a sudden sentences flow. And I'm like, wow, that was really insightful. That was okay. And then I keep going maybe on that. But whatever your religion is, whatever your faith, I just think lean into that. Ask the questions like you said, the 11-11 method.

And your circle of friends. But you wanna make sure your friends are like-minded. Because if you have a bitter friend or someone that's holding on, projecting their own life, that's... Yeah, that makes it really hard. It does. Yeah, I've learned over time that

whenever you kind of mock or laugh at someone else's experience, the universe finds a way to give you the same experience. I've had that happen to me so many times where you just think, how could you be affected by that? Right. That's so insignificant. Right. Like, one of my friends and I, one of my best friends and I would always just be like,

oh, we don't understand how people cry about stuff like that. And then we both went through something. We're like crying to each other on the other side of the phone, you know, just we're being all alpha male about it before and being like, oh, come on, he's got no issues. What's he crying about? Yeah. Then the universe gives you something and you're in the same exact spot.

It happens all the time. It happens all the time. And so you can be so careful what you disregard in someone else's experience or kind of shrug off. 100%. Or you laugh at that or you go, oh God, what do they know? Like when you're doing that, you're just setting it up for you to learn the same lesson.

And it's way more painful than if you were just understanding and conscious with that person. Well, that's also why I wish people, like with social media, they realized so many of these people that are saying something, not that we want them to go through that experience, but they just, they don't know about your journey.

And, but your, what's the quote? Like, why would you take advice? No, why would you take criticism from someone you would never take advice from? And it's so true and you're listening to people that you don't even know, you don't know, they could be eight years old, 10 years old, buying this screen and they're just like, you're ugly, like, thanks. And it shatters that person.

And that's always been so interesting to me, how we can let that happen to us. But yeah. You don't know them and they don't know you. No, why do we care? Well, Jay, thank you so much for bearing with my voice, number one, but also just for having such a great conversation with me. You know me, my family love and adore you and I appreciate you coming here and being one of my first guests on my podcast. Thank you for having me. From the podcast legend, I appreciate it. No, thank you for having me and just I you're such a brilliant host.

Thank you. Like I really felt like we were just hanging and chatting on the couch and it really did feel that way. Yeah. And I want to thank you and your whole family for just having been so wonderful to me over the years. I'm so grateful to each and every one of you and I'm always here for you too. If there's anything I'm always rooting for you and forever in your corner.

Same for us. We love and adore you. My mom really thinks you're her son. That makes me feel bad. Oh my gosh. She's, I told you so upset she can't be here tonight to see you. I know. I would love to give her a hug. I know. I'll tell her for sure. Thank you, Jay. Thank you.